16/03/2018 House of Commons


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16/03/2018

Live coverage of the day's proceedings in the House of Commons, including a debate on the general principles of the Refugees (Family Reunion) (No. 2) Bill.


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Order, order. The motion is that

this house to sit in private, As

0:00:210:00:30

many as are of the opinion, say

"aye". To the contrary, "no". The

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ayes have it -- decision, clear the

lobby.

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The motion is that this house do sit

in private. As many as are of the

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opinion, say "aye". To the contrary,

"no".. Tellers for the ayes...

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Please investigate the delay in the

aye lobby, which I have reason to

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believe is not heavily populated.

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Order, order.

The ayes to the left,

one. The noes to the right, 114

the

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ayes to the left, one. The noes to

the right, 114. So the Noes have it.

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We will now proceed to read the

orders of the day.

Unpaid Trial Work

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Periods (Prohibition) Bill, second

reading.

Mr and spend and McNeill.

I

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beg that the aye Bill now be read

for a second time. I found out from

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the House of Commons rivalling

Philipp library the other day that

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there is a shortage of welders in

the UK. Please bear with me. I met

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an apprentice welder at the other

day, a 19-year-old who lives in

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Canterbury Kent. A beautiful

historic town is Canterbury, I once

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visited it and can attest to that.

This will then apprentice is doing

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very well in college, and spends a

day every week in Dover with a

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welding company. He is a focused

young man, he is motivated, he is

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certainly looking forward to the

future. He is an asset to the

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community, and an asset to his

neighbours, a burden on the body. He

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has also multilingual, he speaks

four languages very efficiently. I

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am not sure that is normal for

welders. I know at several welders

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who can speak of least two language

is. He has got a great future ahead

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of him, especially for the average

age of welders in the UK being 55.

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We have a chronic shortage of skills

in the UK, particularly in welding.

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This young man is a fascinating back

story. His journey to Canterbury was

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a long one. He was previously a

refugee, having escaped Eritrea at

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the age of 16 to avoid conscription

and the brutal military, and moved

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through the Sahara, a fortnight in a

lorry and a fortnight in a pick-up

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truck to Tripoli in Libya. He told

me that if anybody filled out --

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fell out of the pick-up truck, you

would have been left behind, and to

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be left behind Anisa have a desert,

the prognosis would not be great. He

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mentioned that some bad things

happened to girls, and I will leave

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that they are. From Tripoli, he

boarded a boat. The former Glenwood

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is he speaks, one is English, and is

also fluent in Arabic, Aramaic and

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his native tongue. They sailed two

days from Libya before being picked

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up by a bigger boat, and Italian

navy ship which took them happily to

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Italy. He has also picked up two

words of another language. Everybody

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was very happy when they arrived in

Italy after crossing the Sahara and

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the Mediterranean, they were taken

to a reception centre and given

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plenty of food. That was at least

the first part of his journey. From

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the reception centre, he then

travelled to Rome, and spent two

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weeks living at a railway station,

before moving through France to the

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famous Calais Jungle. He lived there

with other Eritreans for a while. He

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told me that there could be tensions

between different groups and the

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Jungle. Obviously people would be

stressed in that situation.

Thank

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you for the story about the

remarkable young man. It amazed me

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of a young woman I worked with

nearly a decade ago who was

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separated from her mother on her

journey here, and his mother sadly

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died before she could see her again.

Does he agree with me that these

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incredible young people deserve so

much better than these avoidable

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rules that caused so much human

misery, and would he urge other

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members of the House when they think

about how they are going to vote

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today, to think about those young

people and do the right thing?

I

0:21:060:21:10

thank the Honourable lady for her

intervention. She's simply sums up

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what I have put together in a rather

large speech. -- succinctly sums up.

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I expect a number of members will

want to make interventions, which is

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welcome, because points like that

are welcome. Eventually, he made it

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across the English Channel, in the

back of a refrigerated lorry. Things

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were fine until somebody switched

off the exaggeration system, and

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being in an unsolicited tight space

for 24 people got very hot.

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Eventually, one of them contacted

the emergency services. They were

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located by the GPS system on the

mobile phone. In December 2016, they

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made the news. Luckily, none of them

were in any way badly injured or

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medically affected by that

experience. They were then taken to

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a reception centre in Kent. Before

he found his way to Canterbury,

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where he lived in communal

accommodation with other refugees.

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Over time in Canterbury, some people

volunteered to help with the

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refugees at a refugee charity there,

and they got to know him. He now

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lives with one of them. It seems

that Canterbury is quite the place,

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it is not the stereotype that is

given by many in the newspapers of

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people struggling and complaining

about migrants and refugees. In

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Canterbury, people seem to be very

welcoming. There is a big Eritreans

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community encountered very, which is

where he has gravitated to, and

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Canterbury can really be quite proud

of the way it has treated.

My

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honourable friend makes an

exceptionally powerful and

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compelling speech. Does he agree

with me that his friend is one in a

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long line of refugees from places

like Germany, Hungary, Iraq, who

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have made a significant economic

contribution and other conservation

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is to society across the UK?

Absolutely correct, and

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unfortunately some people look at

this as being pounds, shillings and

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pence. We should certainly look at

the humanity first. Was 19 and has

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viable ambition, he will certainly

achieve a lot more than he has so

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far.

Is it not the case that we need

to focus on our humanity? I

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presented a petition from two of my

primary schools where they had done

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a project putting themselves in the

position of child refugees. They

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have drawn little suitcases with

what they would take, what was most

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precious to them, and the thing that

struck me was that in every suitcase

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was a photograph of their family. We

should be doing the same as them,

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and if we are a bit too old to

imagine ourselves as children, can

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we imagine the help and support we

wish others would give our children

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in these circumstances?

Again, the

honourable lady makes a very

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compelling point. If we look back at

our own histories, my own background

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is how one Scottish and Ireland, and

certainly the last century, my

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people have been in need of help

when it moved across areas of the

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world. I think the people of

Canterbury can hold their heads up

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high.

I just want to thank

information in my constituency --

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thank information in my fantastic

constituency.

She is very welcome,

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and can intervene on any further

mention of Canterbury as she

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chooses. I was also given a blog

from one corner of the United

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Kingdom, and this is the experience

of refugees in not just the United

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Kingdom but other places, when you

get beyond the headlines and down to

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people are, as the honourable lady

from Central Ayrshire side, it comes

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to common humanity. In my own

constituency...

I am thankful for

0:25:140:25:29

him given me. I would like to

congratulate him not only on this

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Bill but also his powerful speech.

The agree with me that the keyword

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is refugee, and that people forget

what and who a refugee is? It is

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somebody fleeing a place they love,

their home, they do not want to

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leave, but circumstances that we

cannot even begin to imagine mean

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that they literally grasped the

first things that come to hand, and

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they flee their home, looking for a

place of refuge.

The honourable lady

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is correct, and I will later quote

from one of our colleagues, the

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member from Dundee West in the

debate on the 22nd of February,

0:26:050:26:08

which he says that the point of

being a refugee should be

0:26:080:26:13

remembered, why people are

travelling in that situation. I

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thank her for her support on the

Bill, and also her colleague from

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Bromley and Chislehurst, sitting

alongside my distant cousin, I

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think. I will leave that, I do not

want to want in any more trouble!

0:26:230:26:42

Following what the right honourable

lady said opposite, that if the

0:26:420:26:46

Government today said that this bill

was wrong because it would act as a

0:26:460:26:51

pool factor, is it not true that it

is a push factor. People are fleeing

0:26:510:26:57

appalling conditions, and if we hear

from the Treasury banks the idea

0:26:570:27:01

that this bill would create a pool

factor, I think that we should vote

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against the Government just on that

reason alone. We need to support

0:27:060:27:10

these people who are fleeing

appalling conditions.

The honourable

0:27:100:27:15

gentleman is absolutely right, the

blog that I have seen under the name

0:27:150:27:18

of the Government,... Hopefully the

Government will think again over the

0:27:180:27:27

worst they have chosen, because I

think that the member for Central

0:27:270:27:35

Ayrshire...

I thank the honourable

member for giving way, and may I

0:27:350:27:40

congratulate him on bringing this

important bill forward. Would he

0:27:400:27:43

agree that worse governments are

often constrained because they think

0:27:430:27:47

that the public are hostile to

reunions and immigrants, the reality

0:27:470:27:52

is that once the public know the

details, of the circumstances in

0:27:520:27:56

which the individuals concerned are

fleeing, then they are in fact a

0:27:560:28:00

very positive about this, the run

many examples of this in Liverpool,

0:28:000:28:05

when there have been threats at

times to remove people, the public

0:28:050:28:08

have rallied round those refugees.

I

thank the honourable lady for a

0:28:080:28:15

stellar point, that is correct. We

know that from our own experience in

0:28:150:28:18

here. When we start understanding,

we changed our minds about things,

0:28:180:28:22

and other people do the same.

Can I

congratulate my fellow island MP for

0:28:220:28:29

bringing this bill forward. The

important point that he made, and

0:28:290:28:34

used a very powerful word,

motivation. Those of us that have

0:28:340:28:38

seen refugees either in camps, or in

processing, without families, UCB

0:28:380:28:42

loneliness at .net this is, but when

you see them together -- you see the

0:28:420:28:48

loneliness at that -based is --

etched on their faces.

When I was

0:28:480:28:57

listening to the story on Wednesday,

then, I was uncertain in my mind

0:28:570:29:02

that I wouldn't have had the

motivation at my age or any other

0:29:020:29:05

age to go over the Sahara for four

weeks into Mac different transport,

0:29:050:29:10

and then to go into Mac different

boats. I can recall the first time I

0:29:100:29:19

was on about. It certainly wasn't it

doesn't experience. -- a pleasant

0:29:190:29:26

experience.

I am grateful for giving

way, and there is evidence that

0:29:260:29:38

diasporas in all parts of countries

and chambers, but every member of

0:29:380:29:47

this house has had the fortune to go

to and institution of high

0:29:470:29:52

education. Most of our lives have

been enriched by academics who

0:29:520:30:05

arrived as refugees, either from the

Nazis or elsewhere, but we have all

0:30:050:30:11

benefited directly or indirectly.

My

honourable cousin makes a fantastic

0:30:110:30:14

point, and it goes to show that we

have to see this in

0:30:140:30:19

multi-dimensions, because seeing

somebody as just a refugee in here

0:30:190:30:24

and now, not as an academic or a

welder leaves us in a narrow path.

0:30:240:30:34

May I congratulate my honourable

friend, who mentioned the correction

0:30:340:30:37

between his own constituency --

connection between his own

0:30:370:30:43

constituency and that in Ireland.

There are lessons to be learned well

0:30:430:30:48

over the last two and a half years

we have accepted 40 refugees are

0:30:480:30:53

families who are adding to the

diversity and the economy and the

0:30:530:30:57

long-term sustainability of the

entire UK. This is a positive thing,

0:30:570:31:02

and members opposite should vote for

it.

I absolutely agree, and I would

0:31:020:31:06

like to say that mention of

Canterbury by the SNP is by no way a

0:31:060:31:12

politically aggressive move.

As

further two points that have been

0:31:120:31:21

made elsewhere this morning, about

the fact that it has widespread

0:31:210:31:25

support throughout our communities,

and would he join me in

0:31:250:31:29

congratulating the inspirational

young people of the rights

0:31:290:31:33

respecting group of Hermitage

Academy in Helensburgh who have been

0:31:330:31:38

campaigning on and gathering

petitions on this issue for months

0:31:380:31:40

now, and there is edition numbers

1100 people in their towns of

0:31:400:31:44

Helensburgh, and when major liver

that petition to Parliament as they

0:31:440:31:49

will do soon, if possible, will he

join me and meet the inspirational

0:31:490:31:53

young group and welcome them to this

place.

I would be very glad...

0:31:530:31:58

Privileged in fact to meet the young

people of Hermitage Academy, because

0:31:580:32:02

I think that the steps and they

thinking that they have done... My

0:32:020:32:09

final mention of Canterbury, just to

say that Johannes is getting on well

0:32:090:32:14

with life in Canterbury, he has got

a good group of friends there, he

0:32:140:32:17

supports Manchester United, and I

shall leave that what it is.

0:32:170:32:23

LAUGHTER

If I could make some progress and I

0:32:230:32:25

would give way. Moving from

Canterbury to somewhere with an

0:32:250:32:35

easier pronunciation, to my

constituency, we have a good fortune

0:32:350:32:40

to have a young man that he was 17

who has written a blog that has come

0:32:400:32:43

to my attention. I think it is worth

reading out and giving boys, because

0:32:430:32:49

he is reading in a different forum.

"From The time when I was told I was

0:32:490:32:54

to travel to Stornoway, the first

thing that into my mind was, where

0:32:540:32:56

is that? It is in Scotland. All I

know about Scotland is that it is a

0:32:560:33:01

part of the UK, and it is cold

there. I didn't even think that

0:33:010:33:07

Stornoway was on an island in the

middle of the athletic. Loads of

0:33:070:33:11

things that are coming to me, bad

ideas, how would people be there?

0:33:110:33:15

How would the people look like? For

me, it was then unknown place. I was

0:33:150:33:21

worried about the language. I would

he have some England, -- English,

0:33:210:33:25

and I could improve by practising.

The most important thing that I was

0:33:250:33:29

the key about is how that people

would deal with my family,

0:33:290:33:33

specifically the women in my family

who wear the hijab, and it is

0:33:330:33:37

something safer the people where I

am going to. What I thought about

0:33:370:33:41

here is that everybody is looking

after themselves, nobody cares about

0:33:410:33:45

the rest, I was completely wrong.

Now I have got to say sorry for how

0:33:450:33:49

I was thinking about them. The thing

that surprises me most,

0:33:490:34:02

is the charity shops, event and even

a small shops, there is at least one

0:34:090:34:12

charity box. Volunteers, people here

deal with volunteering as part of

0:34:120:34:15

their duties, for a while I thought

that they got paid for that, but all

0:34:150:34:18

I know, it is a priority for them. I

ask myself, how do they do this, the

0:34:180:34:21

answer is that they feel for each

other, they love to do this, and

0:34:210:34:24

they love to say thank you. In

general, I like it here, it is a

0:34:240:34:27

island in the middle of the sea, but

you feel the life here. You can be

0:34:270:34:30

like anybody here. What can you do

more than an old man asking you

0:34:300:34:33

where you are from and after you

answer, he starts telling you, you

0:34:330:34:35

are very welcome in my city, we are

sorry about what is happening there.

0:34:350:34:38

What can I do for you? Please ask

for help when you need it.

0:34:380:34:42

Unfortunately, I didn't realise

that, but humanity first,... " we

0:34:420:34:48

have seen that from Canterbury, we

have seen that from a number of

0:34:480:34:53

places.

I thank my honourable friend

for giving way, I commend him for

0:34:530:34:58

bringing this bill today has. I am

incredibly proud that I have been

0:34:580:35:04

able to welcome a number of refugee

families from Syria, but in my --

0:35:040:35:11

can my honourable friend provides

reassurance to some of those who

0:35:110:35:13

have had to feed violence from some

close family members, that his bill

0:35:130:35:18

will not have an impact on their

safety?

Absolutely not, because this

0:35:180:35:21

bill is enabling averages here to

sponsor the... They will be choosing

0:35:210:35:26

who will...

I am grateful to the

honourable member for giving way.

0:35:260:35:35

This brought the member of --

element of humanity into this. I

0:35:350:35:40

know that certainly listening to the

words of his constituent, and how he

0:35:400:35:47

felt in anticipation of his first

visit to Stornoway, I have got to

0:35:470:35:50

say, the first time I went to

Stornoway, I felt much the same.

0:35:500:35:54

But, for the most part my misgivings

were ill founded.

0:35:540:35:56

LAUGHTER

I think, the significance of the

0:35:560:36:03

stories that we were hearing, and I

have similar expresses from my own

0:36:030:36:08

consistency, should surely

give some

succour to those who are thinking

0:36:080:36:14

about supporting this bill, but are

concerned about how it will be

0:36:140:36:19

scene. Clearly the message is that

there is a positive political

0:36:190:36:25

advantage to supporting this bill.

Nobody should be afraid of it.

0:36:250:36:29

Absolutely correct. I hope that we

see the honourable member at

0:36:290:36:33

Stornoway later.

Emburey grateful to

the honourable gentleman and can I

0:36:330:36:41

congratulate him. Will you join with

me and congratulate... Largest

0:36:410:36:52

refugees by a country mile in our

country.

Very pleased to thank that

0:36:520:36:59

council and congratulated. And it

brings me onto Aberdeenshire Council

0:36:590:37:02

that I was going to mention, as

well. Apparently there are a of

0:37:020:37:05

Syrians watching the debate in

Aberdeenshire, today. They are

0:37:050:37:10

watching it I am told on Facebook

with their hearts in their mouths.

0:37:100:37:14

Aberdeenshire Council needs to be

congratulated. Thank you to the Tory

0:37:140:37:23

councillors of Aberdeenshire

Council, and the Labour councillors

0:37:230:37:26

of Aberdeenshire Council, the

Liberals, Greens, independent and

0:37:260:37:29

the SNP councillors of Aberdeenshire

Council, and they have all united

0:37:290:37:34

today to support this bill. The

thing about this bill is that it

0:37:340:37:37

could have been introduced by any

member in this house. It is a bill

0:37:370:37:41

that is conceived by a partnership

of good Samaritan organisations, the

0:37:410:37:46

British Red Cross, Oxfam, the

refugee Council, the UNHCR, and

0:37:460:37:50

amnesty to name but some. This bill

has the support of MPs from seven

0:37:500:37:56

political parties. Conservatives,

labour, SNP, DUP, liberal, green. --

0:37:560:38:04

and paid country. This shouldn't be

a bill of party politics. This is

0:38:040:38:12

not a bill about red, blue, yellow,

it is about compassion and at the

0:38:120:38:17

honourable member for Orkney and

Shetland said just a few minute ago,

0:38:170:38:25

humanity.

Can I say that this debate

comes 46 years after my wife and I

0:38:250:38:38

took a family into our house, and we

just had a get-together. What I have

0:38:380:38:43

not heard from him, or the good

Samaritan organisations, is what

0:38:430:38:47

numbers of people would be eligible

under this bill, who are not already

0:38:470:38:50

eligible.

The honourable member

asked a good question, and from the

0:38:500:38:57

information that I have directly, a

number of years ago, it would have

0:38:570:39:02

been about 400, but it is probably

800 to 1000 at the moment you would

0:39:020:39:06

be helped. It is not a huge number,

but I thank him and commend him for

0:39:060:39:12

what he has done with refugees in

the past, and he sees the benefit of

0:39:120:39:16

that today in his own personal life,

and there are a number of examples

0:39:160:39:21

of that. Indeed, this bill has taken

the UK into line with the rest of

0:39:210:39:26

Europe. It has only brought it in

line. If I have only criticisms, my

0:39:260:39:33

bill is so small and unspectacular.

So I'm spectacular that we should

0:39:330:39:37

have no pub at all and passing this

bill. You would have to have a very

0:39:370:39:43

hard heart not to ensure these very

limited measures I ask for, today,

0:39:430:39:49

do not become law. Can I say how

grateful I am for the support of

0:39:490:39:53

people have done well in their

lives, but yet have made it their

0:39:530:39:56

concern and business to use their

position to help the least well off

0:39:560:40:00

in the world. Some of these are

celebrities are actors and

0:40:000:40:05

actresses, pop stars who have used

their position to highlight the bill

0:40:050:40:07

and give it their time, very freely

indeed.

Thank you for giving way,

0:40:070:40:15

and May I congratulate him on the

powerful speech that he has making,

0:40:150:40:18

and the amount of support he has

gathered. In my Livingston

0:40:180:40:24

constituency, people have come and

made their home, set up a business

0:40:240:40:27

battery claims leather sofas into

shoes and bags, and is now

0:40:270:40:33

supporting and employing to disabled

people in the West Lothian and

0:40:330:40:38

Livingston area. That is exactly the

kind of people that we want to

0:40:380:40:42

welcome into our community, who come

and make the fabric of our society

0:40:420:40:46

richer.

Absolutely. And it is a lost

of the host countries as they have

0:40:460:40:50

had -- it is the loss of the host

countries that have had to -- that

0:40:500:40:56

they have had to flee. It is mostly

decent members of the public who

0:40:560:40:59

have been writing, you can conceive

of the enormity of refugees, of

0:40:590:41:04

people fleeing to safety have had to

go through, and they're in their

0:41:040:41:08

droves have been very supportive.

Often, as members of Parliament, we

0:41:080:41:12

have got to see the issues that it

requires to put us in their shoes,

0:41:120:41:15

of physics this is quite dissimilar

to our own. That but our abilities

0:41:150:41:19

to emphasise at great -- empathised

at great stretch. How can we begin

0:41:190:41:29

to know what it is like to be a

refugee who has fled from Syria,

0:41:290:41:37

crossed seas, and then faced a

gruelling adversarial asylum system?

0:41:370:41:43

How can we feel what it is like to

be a 17-year-old in Eritrea, who had

0:41:430:41:48

escaped because he did not want to

be murdered like his brother because

0:41:480:41:51

he did not want to be forcibly

conscripted indefinite and into the

0:41:510:41:55

army. I'd don't know, and I don't

want to know, and I don't want many

0:41:550:41:59

other people to know about this in

future.

0:41:590:42:05

If you to support the honourable

member's Bill wholeheartedly. Many

0:42:060:42:10

of my constituents in Cardiff

Central, have written to me from all

0:42:100:42:18

persuasions backing this. I do not

have any concerns about the spill,

0:42:180:42:21

and I hope that of any members do,

the ball with those until committee

0:42:210:42:26

stage and passes Bill today.

I think

the honourable lady makes a

0:42:260:42:29

fantastic point, because it is to

the committee stage that people

0:42:290:42:33

should take their concerns. The

concerns will be minor, and if they

0:42:330:42:38

are in any way Major, they can be

addressed properly at Amity stage.

I

0:42:380:42:44

thank the honourable member for

giving way, he is making many valid

0:42:440:42:50

points and I have been lobbied on

this Bill by constituents like other

0:42:500:42:53

members in this House, but both in

favour and against. I think it is in

0:42:530:42:59

bonds to keep the right tone, and

accusing people of having an empathy

0:42:590:43:03

bypass because they have a different

belief of the best way of helping

0:43:030:43:06

people is something we can probably

avoid in this debate.

Let's hope we

0:43:060:43:13

see that and goal coming to

fruition, and I look forward to

0:43:130:43:18

seeing the honourable gentleman with

others in the lobbies at some stage

0:43:180:43:20

today. There can indeed be many ways

of approaching things, and all

0:43:200:43:26

others need to learn a bit more

about the subjects in all manner

0:43:260:43:30

around this. But certainly I think

it is very difficult to be arguing

0:43:300:43:36

against enabling people to read a

refugee camp to join family and

0:43:360:43:40

relatives.

Can I firstly just

congratulate you for bringing this

0:43:400:43:47

Bill? Would he agree with me that,

as one of the wealthiest countries,

0:43:470:43:51

we have the capacity to support

these people who are in desperate

0:43:510:43:56

need, and what we actually like it

is maybe the political will? This

0:43:560:44:01

was demonstrated so well by my

predecessor, who secured the

0:44:010:44:05

amendment which forced the

Government to actually allow 3000

0:44:050:44:09

unaccompanied child refugees.

Absolutely, the honourable lady is

0:44:090:44:14

correct. We sometimes have a limited

thinking, 3000 people seems like it

0:44:140:44:20

a lot. If they were all in my front

room, what would that mean? But in a

0:44:200:44:25

country of 65 million people, it is

a drop in the ocean. Given the skill

0:44:250:44:29

shortages we have in some people we

could be taking in, it is actually a

0:44:290:44:33

narrow interests to do exactly this,

especially in the Reed at a time and

0:44:330:44:38

are more refugees in the world at

any time since the Second World War.

0:44:380:44:42

How could become behind their lives,

their stories, their tragedies, and

0:44:420:44:47

make sense collectively of all those

statistics? It is hard to fathom

0:44:470:44:51

when we start to think of numbers.

But today's Bill is not about

0:44:510:44:56

refugees or immigration, and anyway

it is not about the war in Syria or

0:44:560:45:01

human rights abuses in Eritrea.

First and foremost, this Bill is

0:45:010:45:04

about family. It is something each

others will recognise, it is the

0:45:040:45:12

photograph in the suitcase the

children thought they would want to

0:45:120:45:14

bring with them if they were

refugees. That no matter how much

0:45:140:45:18

families argue and disagree with one

another, families belong together,

0:45:180:45:22

and they certainly should not be in

a situation where they are forced

0:45:220:45:26

apart. This is not an immigration

issue, it is a protection issue, as

0:45:260:45:30

the member of Dundee West said in a

debate on Westminster Hall on the

0:45:300:45:33

22nd of February.

I also

congratulate the honourable member

0:45:330:45:39

for bringing this Bill, and I

absolutely support it, as I also

0:45:390:45:43

represent a community with many

refugees. Would the member not agree

0:45:430:45:49

with me that those of us who have

listened over the years to the

0:45:490:45:55

Holocaust memorial events over the

years, and heard the stories of the

0:45:550:46:03

now elderly people who came over on

Kinder transport and so on, would he

0:46:030:46:12

not agree that those who survived

without their families, how

0:46:120:46:15

traumatic that was? And I have also,

and I'm sure he has, too, heard the

0:46:150:46:21

stories of those who were able to be

connected with their families or

0:46:210:46:25

some family members after the war,

and what a difference that made. And

0:46:250:46:30

how can one forget, how can one not

to link those two sets of stories?

0:46:300:46:37

The honourable lady is absolutely

correct, and if we look back at

0:46:370:46:40

history with the benefit of pounds

-- hindsight, wide and we do more?

0:46:400:46:46

There is a bit of nervousness at the

moment of doing, but when it is

0:46:460:46:52

done, people are eternally grateful.

Not just those who have been saved,

0:46:520:46:55

but those who have done the savings

can look themselves in the mirror

0:46:550:46:58

with a lot more pride than they

would otherwise be able to do. This

0:46:580:47:02

Bill is about families who have been

torn apart by war and who want to be

0:47:020:47:07

reunited, but cannot due to the

current rules. It is about families

0:47:070:47:10

facing the decision of whether to

stay separated or to undertake

0:47:100:47:16

potentially dangerous journeys

across land, Desert and see to be

0:47:160:47:19

together again. Certainly there is

nobody who would want the male

0:47:190:47:22

members of their family wanting to

be tempted to go with people

0:47:220:47:26

traffickers across the Sahara. I

will give way.

Does he recognise

0:47:260:47:35

that Unicef report that a majority

of young people that are

0:47:350:47:38

unaccompanied child migrants have

been subjected to sexual abuse on

0:47:380:47:42

their journey to the UK, and we have

an obligation to support those young

0:47:420:47:46

people going through the most

appalling times?

The honourable

0:47:460:47:50

gentleman is absolutely correct. It

is sort of a judgment call as to how

0:47:500:47:56

much we talk about that, because we

know it happens but we know that

0:47:560:48:00

many people are watching this

debate, for whom it is maybe a bit

0:48:000:48:03

too close to them. But we have got

to bear that in mind when we are

0:48:030:48:09

making decisions about refugees as

legislators. Currently, adult

0:48:090:48:13

refugees who have been the most is

refugees in the UK are able to

0:48:130:48:16

sponsor the -- their spouse or

partner as well as children under

0:48:160:48:22

the age of 18 to join them in the

UK, and we have to thanks excessive

0:48:220:48:25

Government 's to thank for that. But

that is only one side of the coin,

0:48:250:48:37

and those family members are living

an extremely dangerous

0:48:370:48:40

circumstances. We are looking to

have the other side of the coin

0:48:400:48:43

addressed as well, were under 18 's

can bring in an sponsor family

0:48:430:48:51

members and get family members

together in both directions. In

0:48:510:48:55

recent weeks, the British Red Cross

has helped two Syrian couples

0:48:550:49:00

reunite. Imagine the moment of

elation when the loved ones were

0:49:000:49:03

finally reunited in the UK. Just

hours before, they had been

0:49:030:49:07

separated by thousands of miles and

hundreds of bombs. Refugee family

0:49:070:49:11

reunion is truly a life changing,

and that is why so many refugees and

0:49:110:49:16

people who moved to this country

like welders and whatever are now

0:49:160:49:20

watching this because it will affect

that a change to their lives.

I

0:49:200:49:24

wonder if my honourable friend will

share my concern that legal aid is

0:49:240:49:28

not available for these cases, and

when changes were brought around to

0:49:280:49:32

legal aid, it wasn't a stated there

would be more savings. Would the

0:49:320:49:39

half £1 billion there that has been

saved possibly help of some of these

0:49:390:49:44

cases?

I think the honourable lady

makes a good document. I am here and

0:49:440:49:51

there are quite a lot of speakers,

and I know I haven't made a lot of

0:49:510:49:54

progress in the last 25 minutes

because I have taken a number of

0:49:540:49:58

interventions, so can I appealed to

members if they want to intervene to

0:49:580:50:03

do so sparingly? We want to get this

to a close at some point today and

0:50:030:50:07

think of other people's business.

I

might be a long-lost relative from

0:50:070:50:16

Somerset, Mr Speaker. Is it not

right that the Lord Chancellor is

0:50:160:50:23

actually undertaking a review of

legal aid reforms, that is going to

0:50:230:50:26

include looking at legal aid for

immigration cases? Solas Government

0:50:260:50:29

is taking out an bold, this could

well be included in that review.

I

0:50:290:50:34

think that is great. We know that

there is legal aid available already

0:50:340:50:38

in Scotland. And I'm glad to hear

the honourable lady's intervention,

0:50:380:50:46

but they are not mutually exquisite

approaches. So therefore, she is

0:50:460:50:50

welcoming that she can most

certainly welcome the Bill, I will

0:50:500:50:54

personally escorted through the

lobbies later on if need be.

They

0:50:540:50:59

are's can offer you can't refuse!

At

the Leave this Bill is moving loved

0:50:590:51:09

ones together. Clause one does

justice. It asks that a statement

0:51:090:51:13

changes to immigration rules for

both houses, in response to debates

0:51:130:51:23

and family in both places. The Bill

acknowledges that, which is why it

0:51:230:51:31

operates in this way. The minister

we say that I'm still attempting to

0:51:310:51:35

use primary legislation to amend the

rules, because the honourable lady

0:51:350:51:40

will be aware, there is no other way

for a non-minister to effect changes

0:51:400:51:43

to those rules. If she would like to

intervene and say that the Bill is

0:51:430:51:48

unnecessary, I wouldn't gladly give

way to hear that. -- I would. Clause

0:51:480:51:56

one sets out the relationships that

would be covered by refugee family

0:51:560:51:59

reunion. It includes those that

already have the right, and expand

0:51:590:52:05

that a number of ways. There is a

long list I could put in this Bill.

0:52:050:52:08

Right honourable members could have

spent the entire debate thinking of

0:52:080:52:13

distant relatives who, if we have

been forced to leave our homes and

0:52:130:52:17

communities because of a vicious

deadly conflict, we would like to

0:52:170:52:20

think we could bring our relatives

with those to safety. But I have

0:52:200:52:26

focused on some of the most

egregious that are not covered by

0:52:260:52:28

current rules. Under the current

rules, a parent recognise that a

0:52:280:52:33

refugee in the UK can sponsor their

children under the age of 18 to join

0:52:330:52:37

them, but of that child has not

turned 18, they are not all

0:52:370:52:41

semantically eligible. Mohammed is a

former lawyer from Syria, who was

0:52:410:52:46

recognised as a refugee in the UK

after applying for asylum. He

0:52:460:52:52

immediately began to apply for a

family reunion so that his wife and

0:52:520:52:55

children could live with him and

safety in the United Kingdom.

0:52:550:52:59

Devastatingly, the family was forced

to leave their two oldest children

0:52:590:53:02

behind because they were operating.

He told the British Red Cross they

0:53:020:53:07

are a close family. His little kids

ask every day, what happened? Will

0:53:070:53:14

rejoin us? Wenbo we see them's he

has no idea and does not know what

0:53:140:53:20

to tell them. The Minister may argue

that the Government has recognised

0:53:200:53:24

that children in these circumstances

should be eligible, but the point is

0:53:240:53:33

the guide updated in summer 2016

provided clearer direction to the

0:53:330:53:36

Home Office than may fall to be

granted Family Reunion in

0:53:360:53:42

exceptional circumstances. Out of

that list as children over the age

0:53:420:53:46

of 18 still being dependent on their

parents, yet despite those changes,

0:53:460:53:50

last year with Anthony first nine

months of 2017, only 49 people were

0:53:500:53:57

granted Family Reunion in

exceptional circumstances. My Bill

0:53:570:54:00

seeks to move that group of children

into the main body of the rules. If

0:54:000:54:04

the Government accept the principle

that these children should be

0:54:040:54:07

eligible to be reunited as they do

through the guidance, then I hope

0:54:070:54:12

they will support at least that

element of the Bill.

I congratulate

0:54:120:54:17

him on the Bill today, I support it

wholeheartedly. Vitamins B of a

0:54:170:54:20

story I heard from Oxfam and at a

gentleman whose son was left behind

0:54:200:54:26

in Turkey while the tyre family was

resettled here in the UK. The sun

0:54:260:54:30

was the main breadwinner of that

family. Thus the honourable member

0:54:300:54:34

agree that this is helpful for the

families here and helpful for the

0:54:340:54:38

integration of the UK's society if

we bring those children home?

0:54:380:54:45

Absolutely, everybody is a winner

when this unnecessary bureaucracy is

0:54:450:54:49

removed or designs to help people

rather than hinder them. The

0:54:490:54:51

honourable lady makes a very good

point. The Government can hopefully

0:54:510:54:55

support at least that element of the

Bill, because bringing these young

0:54:550:54:59

people family doesn't the rules.

Firstly, it would give those

0:54:590:55:03

families applying the reunited more

certainty that they are eligible.

0:55:030:55:07

There is no separate family

application form to be reunited

0:55:070:55:12

outside the rules. The family then

has to rely on caseworkers seeing

0:55:120:55:18

that there are exceptional

circumstances, and applying their

0:55:180:55:21

discretion. For those families able

to reunite under the discretionary

0:55:210:55:24

element of the rules, there are

further problems when the family

0:55:240:55:28

member arrives in the UK. Under the

main Family Reunion rules, family

0:55:280:55:33

members coming to the UK get the

same type of leaders they built that

0:55:330:55:36

they are joining. This means they

are granted five years leave to stay

0:55:360:55:39

in the UK, and are able to access

support to help the family rebuild

0:55:390:55:44

their lives together, including

ensuring they have suitable housing

0:55:440:55:48

and enough financial assistance to

help them integrate into the new

0:55:480:55:50

homes. But for family members

reunited outside the rules, they do

0:55:500:55:54

not get the same type of lead. They

will usually be granted 33 months,

0:55:540:55:59

and subject to restrictions that

refugee status is not, including not

0:55:590:56:05

having the course to public funds.

They will face a longer part of the

0:56:050:56:08

settlement from the family members

they are joining, and can find

0:56:080:56:12

themselves living in overcrowded

accommodation or can experience

0:56:120:56:15

homelessness. So after having credit

Matip back story, the current story

0:56:150:56:21

can be quite difficult as well. The

Bill will allow refugee children to

0:56:210:56:25

sponsor the closest family members

to join them. Currently, the UK is

0:56:250:56:30

one of only two countries in the EU

that does not allow children who

0:56:300:56:33

have been recognised as refugees to

have any Family Reunion writes, that

0:56:330:56:37

is the crux of the matter that we

have to change. That is a small

0:56:370:56:41

piece that this Bill does, and as I

said earlier, we are not doing

0:56:410:56:45

enough but at least we are doing

that. While most countries in the EU

0:56:450:56:48

are signed up to the family reunion

directive, which grants separated

0:56:480:56:55

children Family Reunion writes, the

UK along with Ireland and Denmark

0:56:550:56:58

did not opt in to that. But I want

them -- Ireland amended domestic

0:56:580:57:06

legislation to allow this, while the

UK did not. Children have therefore

0:57:060:57:11

been recognised in the UK Government

as being in need of international

0:57:110:57:14

protection, and it has been accepted

it as an safe for them to return

0:57:140:57:18

home, but are still kept apart from

their parents. Young boys and girls,

0:57:180:57:22

many of them will have faced untold

horrors after fleeing their home, I

0:57:220:57:27

left that those who would be best

placed to support them.

0:57:270:57:35

I am grateful for you giving way. He

has made a good point, I think he is

0:57:350:57:40

saying that every other European

country apart from Denmark believes

0:57:400:57:44

that a child should have the right

to come join them, so any argument

0:57:440:57:49

that the Government make today, is

an argument that is not accepted in

0:57:490:57:53

Germany, is France, Italy, and every

other European country. Why should

0:57:530:57:58

those arguments be different for the

UK? Would you like to originate on

0:57:580:58:03

that?

I think that the honourable

gentleman has raise an important

0:58:030:58:08

point. I think there is a feeling

from some, and excused used by some

0:58:080:58:13

that this as it passes, will

encourage people to send their

0:58:130:58:19

children first. I will deal with

that point later, but if that point

0:58:190:58:24

was through, then it would be

happening in those other countries,

0:58:240:58:27

that the honourable gentleman

mentions, therefore it is not true

0:58:270:58:30

at all. If legal aid was the point,

that all the refugees of England and

0:58:300:58:37

Wales would be going to Scotland.

People settle in places for a whole

0:58:370:58:41

variety of personal circumstances,

but these things help people settle

0:58:410:58:50

and...

May I congratulate the

honourable gentleman on an important

0:58:500:58:56

speech. Is he also aware that this

issue is being cited in some areas

0:58:560:59:01

as being the reason why Italy, and

Greece, are not placing children and

0:59:010:59:09

child refugees in the UK as part of

the Dubs Amendment, because they are

0:59:090:59:14

concerned that if there were any

other country in Europe, they would

0:59:140:59:19

be room reunited with their family,

but in the UK, they would not.

0:59:190:59:24

However, there are 240 places

offered by local authorities that

0:59:240:59:27

are empty as a result, and we are

not filling those Dubs Amendment

0:59:270:59:31

places, because there is such a gap

between the UK's position and the

0:59:310:59:35

rest of Europe's on this.

Can I

thank the honourable lady for that,

0:59:350:59:39

and I was not aware of that

fascinating point. The idea that

0:59:390:59:44

other countries are choosing not to

send their children to the UK... Out

0:59:440:59:47

of common decent seat, in the best

interests of those children, in fear

0:59:470:59:55

that they could not be reunited with

family. This makes even more

0:59:550:59:58

imperative. Surely, we should be

ensuring that that happens as the

0:59:581:00:11

honourable lady points out. The

children affected -- one of the

1:00:111:00:17

children affected by the rules, is a

boy growing up in Eritrea. In 2010,

1:00:171:00:26

his brother was taken by the

soldiers, and was never heard from

1:00:261:00:29

again. Then, when he was 16,

soldiers came to his school. He

1:00:291:00:35

never returned. Age 16, he told his

family that he had fled Eritrea. He

1:00:351:00:40

did not know where he planned to go.

That is the point about legal aid or

1:00:401:00:45

whatever, he just needed to go, but

he had to keep moving. He passed

1:00:451:00:50

through Sudan, Libya, over the

Mediterranean, and he fattens up in

1:00:501:00:56

the United Kingdom. After applying

for asylum, he was recognised -- he

1:00:561:00:59

ends up in the UK. After applying

for asylum, he was unable to be

1:00:591:01:05

re-knighted with his family in

Britain. The UK has offered him a

1:01:051:01:09

new home. But what home could he

have particularly at that age

1:01:091:01:14

without his family? One refugees

said, a refugee without a family, is

1:01:141:01:21

like a body without a soul. That is

something that is going to be in an

1:01:211:01:26

amnesty report coming. The

Government have previously asserted

1:01:261:01:29

that allowing children to sponsor

their family members to join them,

1:01:291:01:33

sending the children to the UK, said

that they can act as sponsors.

1:01:331:01:40

Numerous peers to rose to take on

this argument, before Christmas, and

1:01:401:01:46

I congratulate them, echoing what Mr

Justice said in the tribunal, that

1:01:461:01:49

there is no evidence undermining it,

it's been reproved factor of

1:01:491:01:54

argument. The draft of Article 50

was one of those peers who took it

1:01:541:02:03

on forcefully. He described the

Government's indications that

1:02:031:02:07

families in countries like Syria,

Libya, Eritrea Zidane, could sit

1:02:071:02:12

down together and make a cold

calculation to send a child on a

1:02:121:02:16

long journey across desert and see

that might take several months or

1:02:161:02:24

even years, so as to secure the

right to send the family to join

1:02:241:02:27

them. It is very difficult to

disagree with the noble lord on this

1:02:271:02:33

when he called it a joke. The

Government has refuge over --

1:02:331:02:41

recognised... There is no special

definition of a refugee than a child

1:02:411:02:46

having to meet that is different

from an adult, they have two passed

1:02:461:02:52

the same test, and if they are

recognised as refugees, it is

1:02:521:02:57

because of their need of

international protection. It is

1:02:571:03:00

therefore surely only right that

these children are able to meet

1:03:001:03:02

their family members, as adult

refugees would be able to. A

1:03:021:03:07

situation that has been described as

perverse. This is the other side of

1:03:071:03:13

the coin that this bill is dealing

with. It would allow siblings under

1:03:131:03:19

25 to join them. I had her not to

make it, I had heard not to assert

1:03:191:03:27

that parents would callously send

their children on life-threatening

1:03:271:03:30

journey is just so that they can

later join them. I urge her to use

1:03:301:03:36

instead recognise that children are

better off being with their parents,

1:03:361:03:39

with those who support them, to

bring them to the UK, and bring the

1:03:391:03:43

UK into line with the vast majority

of the rest of Europe, so that

1:03:431:03:48

people who are recently refugees in

Greece and Italy can have trust and

1:03:481:03:51

faith in the United Kingdom. Without

wanting to pay out the minister to

1:03:511:03:58

much, she may well argue that there

are provisions for a wider group of

1:03:581:04:01

family members to be reunited. These

the lady... This bill is not needed,

1:04:011:04:10

she would say. However, the right

honourable lady is aware, those

1:04:101:04:14

roots do not cover all family

relationships that I just described,

1:04:141:04:20

nor are they accessible for

refugees.

1:04:201:04:31

Clause one of the bill also gives

the Home Secretary a discretionary

1:04:351:04:38

power to grant a family reunion

application, in other circumstances,

1:04:381:04:44

where doing so maybe in the best

interests of the child, because a

1:04:441:04:49

family member, be in the carries

circumstances, as a result of

1:04:491:04:54

emotional, psychological, financial

dependency, or as she may see

1:04:541:05:00

otherwise fit. Can I trust the

refugee team, who e-mailed me the

1:05:001:05:07

other afternoon, to say that the

trust supports the mental health of

1:05:071:05:13

young refugees, and the refugee team

here, with the support of the chief

1:05:131:05:22

executive, Paul Jenkins, wishes to

procure the support. Thank you very

1:05:221:05:26

much for those working, who have

taken time to get away from their

1:05:261:05:32

busy lives, and who to write any

mail in support of that. Family

1:05:321:05:37

reunion is primarily about bringing

families back together, but it

1:05:371:05:39

should also be seen as a safe and

legal route for refugees to escape

1:05:391:05:45

dangerous circumstances. The Home

Secretary, last month, television

1:05:451:05:48

that the UK has reached the halfway

point in resettling 20,000 refugees

1:05:481:05:52

from the Syrian conflict, and this

must the congratulated. -- must be

1:05:521:06:03

congratulated. For the purposes of

family reunion, it is only the

1:06:031:06:08

relative of the UK, that -- in the

UK that needs to be officially

1:06:081:06:12

recognised as a refugee. The

beneficiaries of family reunion are

1:06:121:06:16

often the most honourable. In 2017,

most family reunion visas work

1:06:161:06:20

issued from people to Eritrea,

Zidane, and Syria. -- Sudan and

1:06:201:06:26

Syria. Despite the global refugee

crisis being worse since... In

1:06:261:06:39

recent years, the number of people

applying asylum in the UK has

1:06:391:06:44

fallen. 86% of refugees live in the

world's poorest countries, not

1:06:441:06:49

richest countries, expanding the

provisions for them to find safety

1:06:491:06:59

in our country is to our benefit as

well as their benefit. This is what

1:06:591:07:08

Klaus two is about. Until the

passing of that act, legal

1:07:081:07:18

assistance has been available. With

its removal, even those families

1:07:181:07:22

that are eligible to be reunited

face significant hurdles, in being

1:07:221:07:26

able to navigate the process. In

their report, not so

1:07:261:07:29

straightforward, the British Red

Cross set out the many bureaucratic

1:07:291:07:33

and practical barriers families

face. At a recent event in

1:07:331:07:43

parliament, MPs said first-hand

about the impact of not having legal

1:07:431:07:47

aid can have. And I am sure that our

honourable member, said about Sara

1:07:471:07:54

Foster, a case worker, with the

British Red Cross, said that... For

1:07:541:08:00

refugees who have been able to work,

while the decision to work buster

1:08:001:08:06

waiting for a decision to an asylum

application, meeting these costs can

1:08:061:08:11

prove near impossible. Sarah told us

that families resort to loans from

1:08:111:08:16

an sleepless lenders, and are living

on virtually nothing to make the

1:08:161:08:26

support that they need to make

application fireball. She told us of

1:08:261:08:33

one applicant who she met in a

supermarket, who had been recognised

1:08:331:08:36

as a refugee, and in his shopping

basket were packet of 10p noodles.

1:08:361:08:44

He plans to live on that the next

few weeks to save up for the legal

1:08:441:08:50

costs to bring his children to

safety. These are the situations

1:08:501:08:54

that we are dealing with, Madam

Deputy Speaker. These are the

1:08:541:08:57

situations that too many people are

facing, and I would like just to

1:08:571:09:01

wind up by thanking the British Red

Cross, the UN refugee agency, the

1:09:011:09:06

refugee Council, Amnesty

International, Oxfam, for their

1:09:061:09:12

support in this bill, and particular

John Fenton for his extremely

1:09:121:09:15

brilliant help, and I would like to

thank many of the brilliant

1:09:151:09:19

charities and supporters who have

been in touch, and those who work

1:09:191:09:22

every day to be in touch, and to

help refugees, and also the baroness

1:09:221:09:28

working on this area in the House of

lords, the NHS refugee team, and one

1:09:281:09:33

of the first people to get in touch

with me, the landlord in Kent, who

1:09:331:09:43

got in touch to ask how he could

help. He has a refugee family.

1:09:431:09:47

Across the United ended, we have

seen tremendous support for this

1:09:471:09:53

bill. People want to do the right

thing, and I hope that members today

1:09:531:09:57

will ensure that the right thing

happens, and we see that this bill

1:09:571:10:01

will progress at the very least to

the next stage. Thank you very much.

1:10:011:10:09

The question is that this bill be

read a second time. David Warburton.

1:10:091:10:17

Thank you very much, and it is a

privilege and a pleasure to follow

1:10:171:10:21

the honourable gentleman, the member

for oh, it's gone... I nailed it. I

1:10:211:10:36

really do congratulate, and I

commend him for bringing this bill

1:10:361:10:41

to the House, and for his moving

persuade them -- persuasive, and

1:10:411:10:47

fascinating speech. I don't just

commend him for bringing it to the

1:10:471:10:51

House, but also for building so much

support around it, because this

1:10:511:10:55

Israeli and important debate, and an

important bill, and it is -- this is

1:10:551:11:00

really an important debate and an

important bill, and it is a subject

1:11:001:11:05

close to my heart. Many of us will

remember the Dubs Amendment in 2016,

1:11:051:11:10

to the immigration act, when that

came before the House in April that

1:11:101:11:15

year. On the back of the Dublin

regulation, which said that refugee

1:11:151:11:18

families have a right to stay

together. On the back of that, the

1:11:181:11:28

Dubs Amendment looks too obviously

extend that to unaccompanied

1:11:281:11:33

children fleeing war in Syria,

living at the time in the Calais

1:11:331:11:36

camp. He did not have any family

that. I was one of only five men as

1:11:361:11:42

of this side of the House to feel

sufficiently strongly to support

1:11:421:11:46

that amendment and vote against the

Government. Just three of us now

1:11:461:11:50

remain on the benches. By honourable

friend, the member for Colchester,

1:11:501:11:54

who is just leaving the chamber, was

the other, but the pressure that was

1:11:541:11:59

exerted at the time was enough to

persuade the Government to

1:11:591:12:03

subsequently accept the amendment,

and its provisions, and I mention

1:12:031:12:07

all that because this area of policy

is one which I have thought about

1:12:071:12:16

carefully, and we all need is good

to know that, particular as the

1:12:161:12:20

landscape shifts and changes.

1:12:201:12:25

It is only by exploring these issues

that we come to the right

1:12:251:12:30

conclusions. In doing so, I think we

need to look carefully at the

1:12:301:12:33

background to the situation today.

If we look at the UK's reaction to

1:12:331:12:39

the appalling humanitarian crisis in

Syria, I think we can be proud of

1:12:391:12:44

what is an impressive record. Almost

2.5 billion in aid has been

1:12:441:12:51

committed since 2012. This not only

represents our largest ever response

1:12:511:12:55

to a humanitarian crisis but I

believe we are second only to the

1:12:551:13:08

United States in providing support

and far ahead of our European

1:13:081:13:11

neighbours. This support has been

focused on educating refugees who

1:13:111:13:13

found themselves in countries like

Jordan, Lebanon, as well as helping

1:13:131:13:15

them to find jobs. These are big

numbers, over half a million

1:13:151:13:18

children in Syria have been in

education thanks to UK aid and tens

1:13:181:13:23

of thousands enrolled in schools in

surrounding countries. In terms of

1:13:231:13:27

refugees coming to the UK, in 2016,

at the height of the crisis in the

1:13:271:13:33

Calais camps, the UK settled more

refugees from outside Europe than

1:13:331:13:39

any other EU state. In fact, figures

show that over a third of people

1:13:391:13:45

resettled in the EU actually came to

the UK. In that process, the most

1:13:451:13:51

vulnerable refugees have been

supported through the settlement

1:13:511:13:54

programmes that offer a safe and

legal routes to protection and are

1:13:541:13:58

specifically designed also to keep

families together. By 2020, 20,000

1:13:581:14:06

refugees from Syria will have been

settled. Around half of which have

1:14:061:14:10

already arrived here. Without

wanting to list more figures, over

1:14:101:14:15

the past five years, nearly 25,000

family reunion visas have been

1:14:151:14:22

issued and since 2010, 50,000 people

have been given protection status in

1:14:221:14:26

the UK.

It is a powerful speech. I

wonder if he can reiterate the point

1:14:261:14:36

on the refugees, we are seeking

support. This country has a powerful

1:14:361:14:42

record of supporting refugees in

situ, in the region, where they are

1:14:421:14:46

most vulnerable and the most

vulnerable of those we are bringing

1:14:461:14:49

them to safety on these shores and I

wonder if he could address that

1:14:491:14:54

issue in particular.

My honourable

friend reads my mind and has

1:14:541:14:58

obviously been looking ahead. Not

literally, I promise six under

1:14:581:15:07

current rules, partners must rightly

show that their relationship if they

1:15:071:15:09

are coming here, predates their

exile, and that it is ongoing and

1:15:091:15:14

that both parties have an intent to

continue the relationship here.

1:15:141:15:17

Children must show they are related

and under 18, unmarried and not

1:15:171:15:23

living an independent life. Family

reunion visas themselves are exempt

1:15:231:15:27

from some of the usual criteria.

There is no need to demonstrate

1:15:271:15:32

adequate finance to support

dependents and offenders do not have

1:15:321:15:36

to demonstrate proficiency in

English and there is no processing

1:15:361:15:40

charge or immigration health

surcharge will. When it comes to

1:15:401:15:43

other family members, quite rightly,

there are exceptions and additional

1:15:431:15:56

compassionate circumstances that can

be taken into account. These kinds

1:15:561:15:58

of exceptions could apply to help a

dependent child over a team or an

1:15:581:16:01

unaccompanied child with a relative

in the UK. As their House will know,

1:16:011:16:05

family reunion can be enacted

through other resettlement schemes,

1:16:051:16:10

the mandate and Gateway schemes

offer routes for refugees to be

1:16:101:16:13

settled in the UK where this is in

their best interest and both of

1:16:131:16:18

these games recognise family ties as

part of this calculation. A family

1:16:181:16:24

links are also one of the grounds

for eligibility under the Syrian

1:16:241:16:29

vulnerable person resettlement

scheme and the children at risk

1:16:291:16:32

scheme is also helping to resettle

up to 3000 people and their families

1:16:321:16:37

from the Middle East and North

Africa region over the course of

1:16:371:16:41

this Parliament. I think the key

part of looking closely at this area

1:16:411:16:45

has to be a focus on how best we

target our responses and are

1:16:451:16:50

supported as my honourable friend

pointed out earlier. If we change

1:16:501:16:53

policy here in the UK, if we signal

and signpost ourselves as a more

1:16:531:16:59

open door, how will this influence

behaviour and therefore lives? Those

1:16:591:17:05

facing civil war and persecution, as

we have heard, had little choice

1:17:051:17:08

about fleeing their homeland, but

what follows that, how best can we

1:17:081:17:13

step in to support?

I am grateful to

the honourable gentleman giving way,

1:17:131:17:20

but if these children have been

accepted as refugees does he not say

1:17:201:17:24

that the cost to the government,

local government and everyone else

1:17:241:17:29

in their future years, will be less

if they are part of a family and

1:17:291:17:35

have a successful life and a

successful settlement and are not

1:17:351:17:37

left here as orphans?

That is a very

good point and I appreciate the

1:17:371:17:48

intervention. Cost is not the matter

here, this is really about... It is

1:17:481:17:51

about what factors will influence

behaviour. What will be the result

1:17:511:17:55

of a change of policy? Because I

think...

He is making a very

1:17:551:18:04

powerful speech, a great deal of

which I agree with and I recognise

1:18:041:18:07

the great deal that the government

has done in many areas but in terms

1:18:071:18:11

of change of policy, one of the

policy changes and it is modest and

1:18:111:18:16

that is to make it easier for those

who have fled in fear to get around

1:18:161:18:21

the very difficult requirements to

provide documentation, for example,

1:18:211:18:27

in order to access Legal Aid. I am

sure he will know that the British

1:18:271:18:32

Red Cross found some families were

missing documents. He will know that

1:18:321:18:39

frequently, if you are genuinely

fleeing in fear, you do not have

1:18:391:18:42

time to go through a check list of

document you might need later. This

1:18:421:18:48

bill does, in a very modestly,

improves things in a direction he

1:18:481:18:52

has argued for in the past.

There is

a lot to be said for what he has

1:18:521:18:59

just said. And as he knows,

exceptional compassionate

1:18:591:19:06

circumstances do exist and the Home

Office guidance allows for this. He

1:19:061:19:10

is absolutely right, there are

issues about that and there are

1:19:101:19:14

timing issues. The practicalities,

the logistics of the situation can

1:19:141:19:20

often mean that that is not as

easy...

The gentleman asks a very

1:19:201:19:26

legitimate question in what will be

the impact of change? We have heard

1:19:261:19:32

today from the right honourable

lady, the chair of the Home Affairs

1:19:321:19:36

Select Committee, that current

policy is one that is leading to

1:19:361:19:39

authorities in Greece and Italy not

sending children who would otherwise

1:19:391:19:44

be eligible under the Dubs

Amendment, is the honourable

1:19:441:19:48

gentleman comfortable with the

status quo?

Not entirely. And I

1:19:481:19:55

think we need to look closely at

that and look closely at how the

1:19:551:20:00

Dubs Amendment scheme is being run

and and how it has been runs. I'd do

1:20:001:20:09

not think councils have taken it on

in the way that they perhaps should

1:20:091:20:14

have done. Secondary movements are

important. I think... I am not sure

1:20:141:20:20

that secondary movements really do

improve lives and I think that there

1:20:201:20:25

are precedents, there are examples

that we can look at. In 2015,

1:20:251:20:31

Germany's asylum seeker intake

increased by 155% as a result of

1:20:311:20:36

people reacting specifically to

policy change. More than 20% of

1:20:361:20:44

those people who sought that asylum

in Germany that year were from the

1:20:441:20:47

Balkan countries, which have been

conflict free for more than 20

1:20:471:20:50

years. Those people were not seeking

refuge, they were seeking

1:20:501:20:53

opportunity.

Just to be clear with

the honourable gentleman, what we

1:20:531:21:01

are doing is we are putting under

eight teams in the same category as

1:21:011:21:05

overrated. They are already here and

we are giving them a right to family

1:21:051:21:09

life. That is what they want and if

that is what they want to make their

1:21:091:21:17

lives better,... There is an

argument were some would say that

1:21:171:21:21

under that act over eight teams

neither family more. We should give

1:21:211:21:23

it to the under 18 's, they are

here.

I am sure no one would

1:21:231:21:31

disagree with the fact that it would

not be in the end chest... It would

1:21:311:21:35

only be in the interest of people

traffickers and no one else's, for

1:21:351:21:39

children to be encouraged to leave

their families and undertake a

1:21:391:21:44

perilous, difficult and dangerous

journeys in the hope that the

1:21:441:21:46

relatives might be able to join them

in the future. How much worse if

1:21:461:21:51

they found themselves forced to do

that? In my experience, chairing an

1:21:511:21:58

enquiry into resilience into

extremism in North Africa and the

1:21:581:22:02

Middle East, has shown that there an

appalling number of criminal gangs

1:22:021:22:06

looking to exploit vulnerable people

in the region. Our role must be to

1:22:061:22:12

provide support first in the region,

upholding for all of the reasons we

1:22:121:22:16

have heard, that those who need

international protection should be

1:22:161:22:20

able to claim this in the first safe

country they reach.

Has he had the

1:22:201:22:25

benefit of reading the report from

last summer, an independent enquiry

1:22:251:22:32

into the situation of separated and

unaccompanied minors in Europe? If

1:22:321:22:36

he does, he will see that using

evidence, they knocked the myth of

1:22:361:22:40

the pool factor on its head.

I have

not read it and I would be

1:22:401:22:45

interested to read it and I will

look that bad. Thank you very much.

1:22:451:22:49

It sounds interesting. The pull

factor does appear to be something

1:22:491:22:55

that is cited time and time again

and in Germany, there is a clear

1:22:551:23:00

example of that and I would be

intrigued to know how it is they

1:23:001:23:03

have come to the opposite

conclusion. I think that we need to

1:23:031:23:10

look at the quickest and least

precarious route for safety, rather

1:23:101:23:14

than travelling into and across

Europe to reach the UK. Having said

1:23:141:23:19

that, it is also vital that we are

in a position to continually review

1:23:191:23:23

and mould policy to adapt ourselves

to changing circumstances. As the

1:23:231:23:29

member Bill seeks to do. I am very

pleased, as I said, that we are able

1:23:291:23:36

to debate it and I hope... As my

honourable friend, the member for

1:23:361:23:46

mid-Worcestershire, as he said, I

warned against using language like

1:23:461:23:50

empathy bypass, because I don't

think... It is in the interest of a

1:23:501:23:58

friendly, productive, nonpartisan

debate, because we all have views,

1:23:581:24:03

we all have our own... We all

obviously feel empathy and we may

1:24:031:24:09

express that in different ways, all

opinion can be equally and properly

1:24:091:24:15

express, I hope and value. Let me

just get to the end. I am very

1:24:151:24:20

pleased that the Justice Secretary

is undertaking the review of Legal

1:24:201:24:26

Aid reforms. In his review, he will

be properly addressing the Legal Aid

1:24:261:24:32

changes in respect of immigration

cases. I look forward to the report

1:24:321:24:36

later this year and any changes that

will result. Of course, on top of

1:24:361:24:41

all this and perhaps above all, in

tackling the plight of refugees, we

1:24:411:24:45

need to look at the causes. The

government must continue, as I have

1:24:451:24:51

every faith that will, to support

international efforts to find a

1:24:511:24:56

comprehensive and sustainable

solution to the root causes of the

1:24:561:24:59

refugee crisis. Yes, we must

respond, carefully and deliberately

1:24:591:25:04

to the consequences of the situation

in the Middle East, but we must

1:25:041:25:07

focus hard on the matter itself.

This, I finish that the government

1:25:071:25:12

will continue to do and I am sure

that the whole House will support

1:25:121:25:15

those efforts.

Vicky Foxcroft. Thank

you. I want to begin by

1:25:151:25:24

congratulating my honourable friend

on the second reading of his bill.

1:25:241:25:27

There are many of us in this house

who feel strongly about this subject

1:25:271:25:31

and I am grateful for the

opportunity to make my own

1:25:311:25:35

contribution to the debate. I

suspect, like many of my honourable

1:25:351:25:40

friends who are here today, my

interest in this bill comes from

1:25:401:25:45

personal experiences gained at my

advice surgery. Lewisham Deptford

1:25:451:25:50

has more than its fair share of

immigration casework and many of the

1:25:501:25:54

cases my staff and I deal with are

very troubling. However, it is those

1:25:541:25:59

which fall within the scope of this

bill but are often the most

1:25:591:26:04

traumatic. In December last year, I

met with a Somali woman who is

1:26:041:26:09

caring for her four nieces and

nephews in Lewisham

1:26:091:26:22

after their father was murdered in

front of them and their mother back

1:26:221:26:25

home in Somalia. The mother

disappeared for several years and it

1:26:251:26:27

was discovered that she had sought

asylum in Cyprus. She is

1:26:271:26:29

experiencing deteriorating physical

health as well as suffering from the

1:26:291:26:33

mental trauma. My constituent is in

the process of trying to reunite her

1:26:331:26:36

sister with her children, but under

current rules, the sister has to

1:26:361:26:43

undergo a lengthy, stressful and

costly process of applying for a

1:26:431:26:46

visa to settle here. The Lewisham

refugee and migrant network, and

1:26:461:26:53

excellent but overstretched and

under resourced service which

1:26:531:26:56

operates in my constituency...

Thank

you. I know what good work it has

1:26:561:27:05

done. Was she recognised the work

for action for refugees in Lewisham

1:27:051:27:10

who would also be assisted by the

provisions set out in this bill.

I

1:27:101:27:21

agree. We have so many organisations

who do so much great work. I was

1:27:211:27:31

told about a woman from Gambia who

claimed asylum in the UK with her

1:27:311:27:35

youngest child in 2011 after finding

out that the government forces were

1:27:351:27:40

looking for her husband and family.

1:27:401:27:41

Her eldest daughter turned 18 in the

intervening years and has not been

1:27:501:27:53

allowed to roam reconvened with our

family in the UK. These are

1:27:531:27:59

vulnerable people, and as my

honourable and right honourable

1:27:591:28:01

friend is well no, it is stressful

enough to negotiate the Home Office

1:28:011:28:08

system without adding the extra

difficulties associated with having

1:28:081:28:12

suffered significant trauma. The

cost of making a Visa, is also a

1:28:121:28:19

significant barrier. If you allow me

to lighten the mood is likely at

1:28:191:28:28

this point, I say that I am proud of

the work of my local council, the

1:28:281:28:33

London Borough of Lewisham, who have

been doing great work to support

1:28:331:28:38

refugees, and are formally agreed to

join the resettlement programme in

1:28:381:28:44

September 2016, Lewisham Council has

housed 15 families from Syria, which

1:28:441:28:50

was the second-highest number of any

London borough. As an Lewisham

1:28:501:28:55

Council also assures me that it has

offered 24 Kappes is for

1:28:551:28:59

unaccompanied refugee children, but

the Home Office has only used one of

1:28:591:29:04

them. This is completely

unacceptable.

She points out the

1:29:041:29:09

case in Lewisham, which you point

out that this is the case with

1:29:091:29:13

Labour led councils across the

country, where they are offering to

1:29:131:29:17

put more up, but the Government is

not using them, and the Government

1:29:171:29:21

needs to take action immediately to

utilise these places.

I absolutely

1:29:211:29:26

agree with everything that my

honourable friend has just said,

1:29:261:29:28

like I was saying that this is

completely unacceptable. We have got

1:29:281:29:32

a council that is willing to help,

and no doubt, hundreds of honourable

1:29:321:29:37

children who are in a position where

they need their help. In conclusion,

1:29:371:29:42

because I want to be brief, because

I want us to is how -- us to have a

1:29:421:29:47

vote on this, like many of us here

today, I firmly believe that if a

1:29:471:29:52

child refugee has been granted the

right to be in the UK, his or her

1:29:521:29:56

parents or carers should also be

granted that right. Equally,

1:29:561:30:00

children who grew up in this

country, should be allowed that

1:30:001:30:05

right, even after they reach the age

of 18. This bill would unable both

1:30:051:30:10

of these things do happen, whilst

also providing vital financial

1:30:101:30:16

support in the form of legal aid.

Families are being torn apart by the

1:30:161:30:21

current rules, and this simply has

to change.

Thank you, Madam Deputy

1:30:211:30:31

Speaker. It is a pleasure to follow

both my honourable friend the member

1:30:311:30:35

for Somerton and Frome who spoke of

his commitment to this issue, and

1:30:351:30:40

highlighted his concerns about his

bill in a very constructive way, I

1:30:401:30:44

thought, contrary to the way that

sadly I am afraid the honourable

1:30:441:30:47

gentleman presented earlier, and

also to follow the honourable lady,

1:30:471:30:55

who shared her insight from her

constituency, which is a very

1:30:551:30:59

different constituency from mine,

and I respect what you contributed

1:30:591:31:04

to the debate, and the insight that

she gave me, but the Government has

1:31:041:31:08

done much good in this area which I

support, even so, I rise concerns,

1:31:081:31:13

as did my honourable friend, but

this bill in the name the honourable

1:31:131:31:17

member for Western Isles and others,

and whilst it is a pleasure to serve

1:31:171:31:21

under the honourable members on the

trade committee, where sometimes,

1:31:211:31:27

even we agree, I am afraid on this

matter, the substance of this bill,

1:31:271:31:31

I have my doubts will stop even

without doubting his intentions, he

1:31:311:31:36

is wrong in this area. Of course I

will give way.

I am very grateful. I

1:31:361:31:42

will happily discoursing, to the

lobby, we can discuss this.

The

1:31:421:31:53

honourable gentleman escorts me all

around the world as we build

1:31:531:31:57

positive trade relationships with

our friends around the world, and I

1:31:571:32:00

will talk about some of that, and

perhaps we continue to agree rather

1:32:001:32:04

than on the substance of this bill.

Let asked is considerable this bill

1:32:041:32:11

asks. It aims to require the Home

Secretary to widen immigration rules

1:32:111:32:15

to grant visas to a wide range of

relatives. By making it easier for a

1:32:151:32:22

parent to join a child refugee, this

could incentivise families to send

1:32:221:32:27

their child ahead, on a perilous

journey, often in the hands of

1:32:271:32:32

unscrupulous people traffickers. The

bill wishes to amend the legal aid

1:32:321:32:39

sentencing and punishment of assist

the -- of offenders act, but this is

1:32:391:32:48

taxpayers' money, and we must

therefore be very responsible about

1:32:481:32:52

how we spend it. This bill makes no

mention of how to encourage

1:32:521:32:56

integration, how to provide

education, how to offer other

1:32:561:33:00

opportunities refugees, nor does it

make any attempt to tackle the

1:33:001:33:02

situation is that people are

fleeing, rather than it simply

1:33:021:33:06

accept that this will continue to be

the case. I will.

Thank you to my

1:33:061:33:13

noble friend for giving way. Could I

just go out in to consider this.

1:33:131:33:18

This is a bill about refugees, not

economic migrants, with whom one

1:33:181:33:25

might have some sympathy, but these

are people who are fleeing war,

1:33:251:33:32

persecution, terror, on a scale

frankly that's none of us can even

1:33:321:33:38

begin to imagine. So, the idea that

you would willingly put your child

1:33:381:33:42

in such an even more perilous place,

is frankly for the ferries.

I

1:33:421:33:51

respect the honourable lady's

contribution, and her right to make

1:33:511:33:55

them to the House, but equally, as

she lets me extend my argument, I

1:33:551:34:00

think she will understand why I have

concerns about this process, and

1:34:001:34:04

wire have concerns about the use,

potentially of those aren't stupid

1:34:041:34:08

as people traffickers, and some

people, even in this country, --

1:34:081:34:12

potentially of potentially abuse at

the hands of people traffickers.

1:34:121:34:25

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I

thank the honourable gentleman for

1:34:251:34:29

giving way, and I speak for the

ferries, but logic would dictate

1:34:291:34:34

that we are dealing with a war-torn

area, and that people will do

1:34:341:34:40

incredibly desperate things, such as

those that the honourable gentleman

1:34:401:34:44

has outlined, and I don't think it

is for the ferries at all. It is a

1:34:441:34:49

sad reality of countries around the

world that also is these things to

1:34:491:34:53

happen.

I thank my honourable friend

for his contributors, and indeed, I

1:34:531:34:57

think you support this point. I

think that debate is continuing

1:34:571:35:00

behind me, but in discussing why I

believe that this bill is misguided,

1:35:001:35:05

it would seem important for us to

discuss the current system that...

1:35:051:35:12

This is history, is important to

where we are, today. Principally,

1:35:121:35:15

the UK that is a party to the UK's

1951 Convention relating to the

1:35:151:35:22

status of refugees, and the protocol

which expanded coverage beyond

1:35:221:35:27

Europe and fleeing World War II. It

is important to note that the

1:35:271:35:34

convention does not, the UN

Convention does not provide an

1:35:341:35:39

automatic right to family reunion

refugees. The convention does,

1:35:391:35:42

however, recommend that signatories

take the necessary measures for the

1:35:421:35:47

protection of the refugee's family,

which contends that the Government

1:35:471:35:51

does at present. The Government

daily takes more account than this

1:35:511:35:56

proposed bill dies of protection of

refugees family, by reducing the

1:35:561:36:00

pressure is on family members, as my

honourable friend the memorable day

1:36:001:36:05

till Basil, said, questions which I

believe this bill could amplify. 30

1:36:051:36:14

years on from the UN Convention, and

20 on from the protocol amending it,

1:36:141:36:19

Article three of the 1989 UA -- 1989

UN Convention ensures that the

1:36:191:36:27

best... Home Office officials, when

assessing asylum claims must

1:36:271:36:35

already, therefore, consider the

best interest of a child. A similar

1:36:351:36:39

consideration must be taken under a

number of UK's governments under

1:36:391:36:46

international law. The UK is a

signatory, because of our historic

1:36:461:36:51

desire to spread British values, and

often where British values lead, the

1:36:511:36:55

world has followed. And it is often

said that the convention was

1:36:551:37:00

originally conceived by Churchill

and drafted mainly by British

1:37:001:37:03

lawyers. It is perhaps ironic that I

would contends shameless ambulance

1:37:031:37:08

chasing lawyers now uses Convention

as a stick to hit Britain with in

1:37:081:37:12

all sorts of situations, perhaps

work bye were seen in their

1:37:121:37:16

behaviour in Northern Ireland and

Iraq. Some of the worst offenders in

1:37:161:37:24

the legal profession use their

skills to actually purport that

1:37:241:37:28

certain people are refugees when

they are not, devaluing the

1:37:281:37:31

argument, that should be rightly

agreed across the whole house that a

1:37:311:37:35

genuine refugees should have the

support of this country.

I thank the

1:37:351:37:40

honourable gentleman forgiving way.

Do you share my concern that whilst

1:37:401:37:44

it sounds great, Russia is actually

a signatory, and we can look at it

1:37:441:37:50

abysmal human rights record under

Putin.

My honourable friend

1:37:501:37:56

anticipates my argument, and he

reminds me that in my maiden speech,

1:37:561:38:02

when I referred to King John who

wrote from his castle in my

1:38:021:38:06

constituency to sign the Magna

Carta, he created rights for the

1:38:061:38:10

first time in 1215. I said in my

maiden speech, human rights were not

1:38:101:38:16

conceived in 1998, they have existed

for centuries, they did not exist in

1:38:161:38:21

a vacuum. Rights were balanced by

responsibilities. Rights must be

1:38:211:38:31

balanced by responsibilities, to

prevent them to carving to harm, and

1:38:311:38:34

by response please is the rest of

our country.

I am extremely grateful

1:38:341:38:39

to the honourable gentleman, since

he is giving us a history lesson,

1:38:391:38:43

isn't the best example in history of

a mother sending her child on a

1:38:431:38:47

perilous journey that of placing

roses in a basket because of what

1:38:471:38:54

she feared would happen to him,

shouldn't we be drawing on that kind

1:38:541:39:01

of example rather than telling us

about his fears that the push or

1:39:011:39:05

pull factor?

If the honourable

gentleman had been paying attention

1:39:051:39:07

from the back of the class, he would

have heard me say repeatedly that I

1:39:071:39:14

support genuine refugees being

looked after by Britain and allies

1:39:141:39:16

in the world, but the trouble is

that this system can be abused. That

1:39:161:39:21

is why the European Convention on

human rights, in Article eight

1:39:211:39:25

provide a qualified right to respect

family and private life, whilst this

1:39:251:39:29

can be interfered with the purpose

of maintaining effective immigration

1:39:291:39:34

controls, the interference must be

proportionate. The refugees cannot

1:39:341:39:38

easily return to their families, in

that case, the Home Office must take

1:39:381:39:42

respect for family life into

account. A final example is the

1:39:421:39:53

Dublin regulation, which does

prioritise respect for a family

1:39:531:39:56

reunion about certain other

considerations, such as which state

1:39:561:40:02

a refugee in Nisha Lee entered the

EU. The Government supported this,

1:40:021:40:07

-- initially entered the EU. The

Government supported this and

1:40:071:40:11

another a £10 million fund. It is

important to note that again, no

1:40:111:40:19

automatic right of family reunion

was conferred. These rules only

1:40:191:40:23

determine which country a person can

stay in whilst they await a

1:40:231:40:27

decision. The problem is that the

United Kingdom respect it -- it is

1:40:271:40:35

vital that other countries

respect... Described as the

1:40:351:40:40

electronic centrepiece of the Dublin

regulations, your DAC is a central

1:40:401:40:48

system of fingerprints. Police

authorities in Germany said that

1:40:481:40:51

they couldn't keep up. There was a

similar situation in Greece, which

1:40:511:40:56

estimated in 2000 betting that more

of a third of people arriving were

1:40:561:41:00

not fingerprinted, and in Italy,

too. Greece and Italy have the

1:41:001:41:05

highest numbers recorded under

category to Mac, -- under category

1:41:051:41:10

to Mac. After 18 months, category

two data is raised, enabling people

1:41:101:41:18

to apply for asylum in another EU

member state, even if they cannot be

1:41:181:41:22

entitled to do so. This is wrong,

because Italy and Greece are safe

1:41:221:41:27

countries. Any member opposite that

wishes to disagree with me, should

1:41:271:41:31

take that up with the ambassadors

for those countries. There is no

1:41:311:41:36

reason for a genuine refugees

fleeing horrific violence and

1:41:361:41:40

persecution, not to see a flood of

relief and safety on arrival in

1:41:401:41:44

either country. And obviously, for

the avoidance of doubt, it is right

1:41:441:41:49

for the United Kingdom to play our

part, and we do. But perhaps the

1:41:491:41:52

reason that so many of the arrivals

are not registering their

1:41:521:41:56

fingerprints is that they have not

been refugees fleeing conflict,

1:41:561:42:00

whether in Syria, or as were in the

Middle East, but are economic

1:42:001:42:04

migrants from countries further

afield, perhaps sub-Saharan Africa.

1:42:041:42:14

Would he recognise that Britain is

one of six countries around the

1:42:141:42:18

world where it meets the 0.7% target

on spending on international aid and

1:42:181:42:23

so few other countries are doing

that including many around the

1:42:231:42:28

European Union?

That is an excellent

point and again, he pre-empts my

1:42:281:42:33

remarks, because I will talk about

aid which I think is a vital part of

1:42:331:42:38

this debate. Before I do, I wanted

to refer to what one of my

1:42:381:42:43

constituent said to me, Graham, he

wrote to me and he said the majority

1:42:431:42:57

of would-be asylum seekers have

landed on Mediterranean coasts and

1:42:571:42:59

have then chosen to cross several

countries, all of which could have

1:42:591:43:02

provided refuge. This seems to

contradict the argument that they

1:43:021:43:04

are escaping from persecution and

water. I would suggest that

1:43:041:43:09

honourable members should listen to

people in the country and listen to

1:43:091:43:12

the views of people in the country,

rather than belittling them, because

1:43:121:43:17

this of course is the establishment

view of people, who then need to

1:43:171:43:24

consider what people feel in the

country. They have all been

1:43:241:43:32

criticising this constituent and

maligning his views, but this

1:43:321:43:36

constituent wrote in that same

e-mail of his personal belief in a

1:43:361:43:41

sensible and compassionate system of

accepting genuine refugees. I agree

1:43:411:43:46

with him. I must make some progress.

So the UK's commitment under

1:43:461:43:55

international law, which we clearly

follow and the letters I have

1:43:551:43:59

received from constituents,...

Point

of order.

The people we are talking

1:43:591:44:07

about in the bill are already here.

This is another topic. That is not a

1:44:071:44:12

point of order. The honourable

gentleman will continue his speech.

1:44:121:44:18

The commitments under international

law which the UK clearly follows

1:44:181:44:21

more closely than other countries

and the letters I have received from

1:44:211:44:25

constituent shows that the UK does

care about refugees. Under the

1:44:251:44:32

Syrian vulnerable persons

resettlement scheme, the UK

1:44:321:44:35

resettled over 10,500 people by last

month. The Home Secretary

1:44:351:44:40

highlighted several points which I

think are important to reiterate

1:44:401:44:43

today as to why we should be proud.

This is the largest number of

1:44:431:44:58

any European country. Nearly half of

those resettled have been children.

1:45:001:45:02

We are over halfway to honouring our

commitment and the government is

1:45:021:45:04

considering whether the UK's should

extend its target. Over 500 children

1:45:041:45:07

have been resettled under a

different scheme or the children at

1:45:071:45:10

risk scheme, plus 220 unaccompanied

children were resettled under the

1:45:101:45:16

immigration act and another 8000

Syrian asylum seekers have been

1:45:161:45:22

granted asylum since 2011. The UK

operates the gateway protection

1:45:221:45:27

programme which allows resettlement

of up to 750 refugees every year,

1:45:271:45:32

referred to the UK by the UN High

Commissioner for Refugees under the

1:45:321:45:39

1951 Convention. We have the mandate

refugee programme and the Home

1:45:391:45:44

Office considers asylum from those

granted refugee status and either a

1:45:441:45:51

local office or the British Embassy

in the country of refuge and to have

1:45:511:45:55

close ties to the UK, including but

not limited to the family here.

1:45:551:46:00

Applying to the UK through the

immigration system is also one

1:46:001:46:05

additional option open to refugees.

In total, since 2010, the UK has

1:46:051:46:12

provided asylum or protection to

28,000 children and in the last five

1:46:121:46:25

years, 24,700, 24,700 family reunion

visas have been granted, over 5000

1:46:251:46:30

of the 8000 decisions on family

reunion applications between October

1:46:301:46:36

2016 and September 20 and two thirds

were granted. But those were all

1:46:361:46:42

these schemes have in common, of

course, is that UN recognised

1:46:421:46:48

refugees living overseas resettled

in the UK. In 2016, the UK resettled

1:46:481:46:53

more refugees from outside Europe

than any other EU member state. The

1:46:531:46:59

UK will gladly resettled genuine

refugees living overseas where this

1:46:591:47:02

is deemed to be in their best

interest, but crucially, without

1:47:021:47:06

people being encouraged to undertake

life-threatening journeys to apply.

1:47:061:47:13

The UK has resettled many thousands

of refugees, even if people, members

1:47:131:47:19

opposite, might choose to dismiss

that. The UK has spent billions in

1:47:191:47:24

aid as my honourable friend has

mentioned already to help look after

1:47:241:47:28

refugees in the countries where the

first sought refuge. Perhaps in

1:47:281:47:33

their own country, even in their own

country, only yesterday morning

1:47:331:47:39

listening to the Today programme, I

heard from several residents living

1:47:391:47:45

under bombardment in Easter and

good, the opposition rebel

1:47:451:47:49

stronghold on the edge of Damascus.

An English language teacher, the

1:47:491:47:55

mother of one family with young

daughters and once the -- one son,

1:47:551:48:01

she met her husband in 1990 and

almost 20 years ago, they moved to

1:48:011:48:07

Easter Guta from the US to be close

to his elderly parents. Here is what

1:48:071:48:10

she said. This is my kitchen. Here

we used to the fridge as a cupboard

1:48:101:48:20

to store things then. My daughter is

doing the dishes. I know the world

1:48:201:48:24

is waiting for us to evacuate but it

is not right. It is not right to

1:48:241:48:29

kick someone out of their own land,

it is not right to force people to

1:48:291:48:33

leave. What will happen to them.

They will just be displaced people,

1:48:331:48:38

wherever they go, people will look

down on them. How do I think all

1:48:381:48:42

this will end? I am not

1:48:421:48:53

sure, to tell you the truth. I know

what I hope and I hope something

1:48:561:48:59

good will happen and that everything

will be OK and that is what I tell

1:48:591:49:02

myself. Everything will be OK. While

members opposite seemed to be

1:49:021:49:04

disinterested in the life experience

of someone who is living through a

1:49:041:49:07

living hell, I pray that she is

right. I believe, Diana makes an

1:49:071:49:09

excellent point. All the more

relevant to us today, because this

1:49:091:49:13

is her lived experience. She and her

family are surviving, no more than

1:49:131:49:19

that, in an underground shelter, a

basement. Perhaps we should listen

1:49:191:49:23

to people like Diana and not just

assume that we know how they think

1:49:231:49:28

and feel. Perhaps we should not be

forced to flee their countries and

1:49:281:49:35

to make dangerous journeys halfway

across the world. And that is why we

1:49:351:49:40

should be proud of all the aid and

the 25 million, 25 million food

1:49:401:49:47

rations the UK has given. Back in

2016, David Cameron pledged an

1:49:471:49:53

additional 1.2 billion of support

for refugees from Syria, including

1:49:531:49:57

in Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey. Last

year the government unveiled a £1

1:49:571:50:03

billion aid package for Syrian

refugees, providing food, shelter,

1:50:031:50:08

vaccines, health care, skills and

job opportunities so they do not

1:50:081:50:12

feel forced to make the perilous and

potentially life-threatening journey

1:50:121:50:16

to Europe. There are many other UK

aid projects as well, including 300

1:50:161:50:22

million towards a facility for

refugees in Turkey, 200 million

1:50:221:50:27

towards economic development

opportunities in Jordan. Almost 200

1:50:271:50:31

million to support Palestinian

refugees. To those people listening

1:50:311:50:33

on the radio and watching on

television, it should be crystal

1:50:331:50:38

clear, the UK does care and this

government does care. I care and

1:50:381:50:43

that is why we should not virtue the

signal today. Even with a clear

1:50:431:50:51

commitment to helping refugees show,

I believe it is important that we

1:50:511:50:54

retain clear control over our asylum

seeker system. What is disgraceful

1:50:541:51:02

is members not being heard in this

House for their own views, which

1:51:021:51:06

every member should be entitled to

espouse. Let me continue in that

1:51:061:51:12

vein. Take Sweden. The Guardian, no

criticise of immigration of course,

1:51:121:51:19

described the situation in Sweden it

is almost bursting point.

1:51:191:51:25

Continuing, there have been small

riots in Malmo over the demolition

1:51:251:51:29

of a migrant camp set up for

Palestinians and a general sense

1:51:291:51:32

that the fabric of Swedish society

is under strain. These are not my

1:51:321:51:36

words, these are the words of the

Guardian newspaper. The Telegraph

1:51:361:51:39

does not cross things over, they say

when asylum seekers had their case

1:51:391:51:46

rejected, most disappeared, on

average seven out of ten of those

1:51:461:51:49

facing deportation just banished or

rather they stay in the country and

1:51:491:51:54

keep gaining a system that could

have been designed for ease of

1:51:541:51:56

exploitation.

I would gently say to

my honourable friend, this is not

1:51:561:52:01

one of his greatest contributions.

Those parties stands proud on

1:52:011:52:08

offering places of refuge,

especially to children in conditions

1:52:081:52:14

that he is actually described. Could

I please remind him, this bill is

1:52:141:52:20

about people who are our genuine

refugees, who have been granted that

1:52:201:52:25

status and I think if he could

confine his comments to that, it

1:52:251:52:29

would all progress in a much

pleasanter way.

I respect my

1:52:291:52:35

honourable friend, and I respect her

position as a sponsor of this bill.

1:52:351:52:44

She is entirely right, it is

entirely her right to be able to do

1:52:441:52:48

that, but equally it is also my

right and the right of every member

1:52:481:52:52

to have contrary views and my

argument that I outlined earlier is

1:52:521:52:56

that some people, some people, game

the system and that is wrong. That

1:52:561:53:03

is wrong. And the risk of this bill,

in my view, is that it could

1:53:031:53:07

encourage more people to do that,

more people to take that dangerous

1:53:071:53:12

journey, that it could encourage

more children to be put in harms way

1:53:121:53:16

and even the children that Sweden

attempts to resettle can suffer if

1:53:161:53:20

refugees are granted asylum without

careful management. The Telegraph

1:53:201:53:24

said in 2004 it was absorbing about

400 children a year. Five years ago,

1:53:241:53:32

this had grown to 2600 and even then

the system was starting to creep.

1:53:321:53:37

Last year, 35000 and accompanied

children claimed asylum in children

1:53:371:53:44

-- in Sweden, 35,000, providing the

right characters so many would

1:53:441:53:48

overwhelm a superpower let alone a

small Nordic state. Care homes have

1:53:481:53:52

been set up quickly and they fall

short of what is needed to protect

1:53:521:53:56

the staff and the children. A

22-year-old working out one of the

1:53:561:54:01

homes was stabbed to death. This is

no loan case. 18 points were found

1:54:011:54:05

in an abandoned house with no

toilets and no heating, the

1:54:051:54:10

temperature was well below zero.

They were slipping on the floor.

1:54:101:54:13

Many under the' to keep warm and one

was just nine years old. After being

1:54:131:54:24

placed in a care home, they ran away

and were sleeping rough again. There

1:54:241:54:27

are anger at children who are sent

ahead by the desperate families.

1:54:271:54:30

This is the point that my honourable

friend made earlier. There are

1:54:301:54:35

trafficked children who are sent

ahead by desperate families. There

1:54:351:54:40

are also trafficked children who may

be in the hands of gang masters and

1:54:401:54:47

before sleep -- may be forced into

work and prostitution. There are

1:54:471:54:51

children living in abandoned

buildings often sucked into a

1:54:511:54:53

criminal underworld. The article

concluded that the lesson from the

1:54:531:54:55

continent is clear, to let in more

immigrants than you can handle leads

1:54:551:54:59

to trouble, but to admit that more

children order.

Can we calm it down

1:54:591:55:11

a bit, please? I am sure the

honourable gentleman is returning to

1:55:111:55:16

the bill.

I am getting very close

and thank you for your intervention.

1:55:161:55:21

I just need to make that quotation

clear, it is not my words, it is the

1:55:211:55:27

words that I am quoting from the

article that said the lesson of the

1:55:271:55:31

continent is clear, to let in more

immigrants than you can handle leads

1:55:311:55:35

to trouble, but to admit more

children than you can care for,

1:55:351:55:40

leads to tragedy. I should also,

before I wind up, I should refer to

1:55:401:55:46

Germany as well. Where a similar

situation has been seen were up to 1

1:55:461:55:50

million refugees and migrants

entered in 2015. The Telegraph

1:55:501:55:55

reporter, obviously, off a terrible

incident on December the 19th which

1:55:551:55:59

saw a failed asylum seeker from

Tunisia allow a truck into a

1:55:591:56:05

Christmas market stand in Berlin

leaving 12 people dead. -- plough a

1:56:051:56:12

truck. Perhaps no event was more

disgusting, more disgraceful than

1:56:121:56:19

the events on New Year's Eve 2015 in

Cologne where the BBC reported that

1:56:191:56:23

more than 1000 criminal complaints

were filed, and was of them alleging

1:56:231:56:28

sexual assault. An officer with the

federal police put in his report

1:56:281:56:32

about that night, saying that women,

unaccompanied or not, had to run a

1:56:321:56:37

literal gauntlet of heavily

intoxicated men. It was impossible

1:56:371:56:44

to describe the situation we were

confronted with, Chaos could have

1:56:441:56:48

lead to injuries. That is a

consequence, while a majority of

1:56:481:56:52

Germans would still say, the

refugees...

1:56:521:56:56

The UK has the potential to face

similar issues. One issue I want to

1:57:071:57:12

talk about as I begin to close, and

I suspect the members opposite will

1:57:121:57:16

be delighted to hear me begin to

close, is that learning English is

1:57:161:57:22

central for integration in British

society. In giving refugees

1:57:221:57:26

opportunities, and in the case of

20,000 children resettled since

1:57:261:57:30

2010, and education. But this Bill

does not deal with this, with

1:57:301:57:38

integration or opportunities. It

does not think through the

1:57:381:57:43

implications it would cause, it does

not think about the hard-working

1:57:431:57:46

people up and down our land to have

aspirations for their families also.

1:57:461:57:52

Hard-working people who should not

suffer because of the strain on

1:57:521:57:56

public services that could be

created by this policy. In

1:57:561:58:04

conclusion, the present family

reunion policy is designed to

1:58:041:58:08

provide a safe and legal route with

no application fee to be paid, for

1:58:081:58:12

those dependent family members to

join their refugee family in the UK.

1:58:121:58:17

This avoids the need for family

members to make dangerous journeys

1:58:171:58:21

to seek protection. I have

highlighted many other excellent

1:58:211:58:25

refugee resettlement schemes, and it

is crucial our efforts are

1:58:251:58:28

concentrated on making sure these

existing schemes are used to full

1:58:281:58:32

effect and that the current law

works properly and effectively

1:58:321:58:36

without the need for family members

to make dangerous journeys. This way

1:58:361:58:40

we can help people who need it most.

Anyone can provide individual heart

1:58:401:58:46

wrenching situations where the

current legislation does not work

1:58:461:58:48

for an individual, but it is easy to

vote for something here without

1:58:481:58:54

thinking through the consequences.

It is easy to get caught up in

1:58:541:58:57

virtue signalling without a second

thought but the men, women and

1:58:571:59:00

children we are here to represent.

It is easy to cast aside the views

1:59:001:59:04

of the British people, as some did

opposite, who are generous people,

1:59:041:59:09

happy to provide a beacon of hope to

so many around the world, but who

1:59:091:59:12

want to see their money went well

spent and to want to look after

1:59:121:59:17

their own families. To do so would

be wrong for the British people. We

1:59:171:59:21

must do what is best for those who

are at risk of being trafficked or

1:59:211:59:25

making life-threatening journeys.

You must do what is best for the

1:59:251:59:30

millions of refugees, of whom we can

help more and to greater effect by

1:59:301:59:35

providing billions in aid to save

them in the lands they call their

1:59:351:59:37

own. We must do what is best to keep

control of our system and to protect

1:59:371:59:43

the hard-working, decent,

charitable, but silent majority

1:59:431:59:46

across the United Kingdom.

Shame!

Shame!

Order!

I thank my honourable

1:59:462:00:00

friend for bringing this is Bill to

Parliament, in contrast to the

2:00:002:00:07

previous member, he doesn't know the

difference between a migrant and

2:00:072:00:11

refugee angiography hasn't read this

Bill. I thank my constituents, all

2:00:112:00:16

of whom support this Bill and to

have contacted me in the run-up to

2:00:162:00:19

this debate. We must remember that

today, we face unprecedented times.

2:00:192:00:28

Over 65 million people around the

world have been forced from their

2:00:282:00:33

homes due to conflict, persecution

and the effects of climate change.

2:00:332:00:36

That is the entire population of the

UK. Over 22 million of these

2:00:362:00:41

refugees, and half of them are

children. Everyone in this house has

2:00:412:00:46

been a child, so let's keep this at

the heart of what we are talking

2:00:462:00:49

about today. Many have been torn

apart from their families, disparate

2:00:492:00:54

to be reunited. They are being kept

apart thanks to bureaucratic hurdles

2:00:542:00:58

and UK policy. Our rules are

restrictive and on fear and the

2:00:582:01:04

refugees who have reached safety in

the UK can find it impossible to

2:01:042:01:07

bring their family members to join

them. Currently, the only family

2:01:072:01:11

member is allowed to join adult

refugees in the UK are their partner

2:01:112:01:15

and dependent children, all me if

they had under the age of 18.

2:01:152:01:20

Unaccompanied children granted

refugee status have no right to

2:01:202:01:23

reunite with any family member. This

means those family members who are

2:01:232:01:28

separated and remain outside the UK

are left with the invidious choice

2:01:282:01:32

of staying out in the dangerous

places or embarking on treacherous,

2:01:322:01:38

expensive, unregulated journeys. Or

May after surviving this journey and

2:01:382:01:42

reaching our shores does the UK

recognise their family members.

2:01:422:01:49

Let's not forget last year, 3000

people died crossing the dangerous

2:01:492:01:56

journey across the Mediterranean.

The disgraceful border that the EU

2:01:562:01:59

has put up against the shores of

northern Africa.

Would he agree with

2:01:592:02:05

me that there are many excellent

volunteers in the Mediterranean area

2:02:052:02:11

to assist those people in desperate

need, and that sometimes, that part

2:02:112:02:15

of the world is looking more like a

cemetery and somewhere where we are

2:02:152:02:20

actually saving people's lives?

I

wholeheartedly agree. Had it not

2:02:202:02:26

been for the support of these

volunteers, the numbers would likely

2:02:262:02:30

be far greater than I am reading

here today. Additionally, legal aid

2:02:302:02:35

has not been made available for

refugee family reunion since 2012,

2:02:352:02:39

which makes it even more difficult.

Recent report by Oxfam and the

2:02:392:02:45

refugee Council highlights negative

rules. Overwhelming evidence finds

2:02:452:02:48

at reuniting refugee families of

some the best chance of living

2:02:482:02:53

settled and fulfilling lives. No one

in this house would not want that,

2:02:532:02:57

I'm sure. Separation can have a

devastating impact. Rehabilitation

2:02:572:03:04

from automatic experiences and the

ability to adapt. I want to turn my

2:03:042:03:09

attention towards the Bill. It has

cross-party support and seeks to do

2:03:092:03:13

three things. I will be six linked,

because some people clearly don't

2:03:132:03:17

understand what it is about.

Firstly, it expands the criteria on

2:03:172:03:23

who qualifies as a family member, so

young people who have turned 18 and

2:03:232:03:27

elderly parents can live in safety

with their families in the UK. It

2:03:272:03:31

will also give unaccompanied refugee

children the right to sponsor the

2:03:312:03:35

whole family so they can rebuild

their lives together in a new

2:03:352:03:47

community. It's not rocket science.

I am proud that Scotland has a long

2:03:472:03:57

history of welcoming refugees. Over

the past two years, communities have

2:03:572:04:02

demonstrated a compassion and

understanding by welcoming over 2000

2:04:022:04:06

Syrian refugees, one of whom I spoke

about here in the chamber on Monday.

2:04:062:04:11

I heard comments today that refugees

are driven by an centre. He as an

2:04:112:04:17

incentive. On Tuesday, that same

person heard from his family, that

2:04:172:04:22

both his cousin and uncle had been

killed. If that is an incentive,

2:04:222:04:26

then I think we should all recognise

that is one we all share is very

2:04:262:04:31

important and why people become

refugees in the first place. We have

2:04:312:04:36

a saying in Scotland and it's a

welcome seeing, we are all Jock

2:04:362:04:43

Samson's parents. And we have

another saying, Scotland is not fill

2:04:432:04:46

up. That simple yearning we all have

to be with her mum, dad, son or

2:04:462:04:53

daughter. Family reunion is also a

safe and legal routes of protection

2:04:532:04:57

that refugees can pursue in order to

bring loved ones of the UK. The

2:04:572:05:02

current system for uniting families

is stacked against those who need it

2:05:022:05:05

and it is stacked needlessly. We

need to introduce humanity into the

2:05:052:05:11

system and this Bill does just that.

Lastly, after being out for a light

2:05:112:05:17

refreshment with colleagues, I was

on my way back here to my home and I

2:05:172:05:21

went through Liverpool Street

station. If anyone has stopped for

2:05:212:05:24

the moment there, you will see the

bronze statue about British values.

2:05:242:05:31

10,000 children who came across

years during the Second World War,

2:05:312:05:37

fleeing persecution in Nazi Germany.

What we talked about today is

2:05:372:05:40

several hundred. I think we can all

get up to that job, surely.

Would

2:05:402:05:49

you agree that those parents send

their children here to keep those

2:05:492:05:53

children safe, not so that they

could join them? Although, isn't it

2:05:532:05:58

a pity we could not make that

facility?

I share every word that

2:05:582:06:06

has been said by the Honourable

member. Thank you. Lastly, this is

2:06:062:06:12

about humanity. All of us are human,

all of us happy children and that is

2:06:122:06:17

why I ask you all to support this

Bill.

I am delighted to be a sponsor

2:06:172:06:27

of this Bill and is supported and I

congratulate the honourable member

2:06:272:06:31

for bringing it forward. I pay

tribute to the work of the British

2:06:312:06:35

Red Cross and others who have done a

great deal to assist this matter. I

2:06:352:06:41

was a member of the Conservative

Party when Ted Heath ) admitted

2:06:412:06:47

refugees from Ugandan Asia. I am

proud of that. In my community now,

2:06:472:06:51

we have a happy and prosperous

community of former Ugandan Asians,

2:06:512:06:58

no proud British people. That is the

spirit of my party and I hope

2:06:582:07:03

members across the house will

remember. That is the spirit in

2:07:032:07:10

which my honourable friend spoke

earlier. Other contributions have

2:07:102:07:16

perhaps not come up to that spirit.

I simply say this, this is a Bill

2:07:162:07:23

which is consistent with government

policy. Government policy, well

2:07:232:07:28

explained by my honourable friend,

has sought to address real issues. I

2:07:282:07:32

don't criticise anything the

government has done in relation to

2:07:322:07:35

the work we have done to support

refugees in the region, to try and

2:07:352:07:39

make it possible to make new lives

nearer to home rather than to embark

2:07:392:07:44

on dangerous journeys. All of that

is right. The money we have

2:07:442:07:49

invested, all that is good. And this

Bill does not seek to criticise or

2:07:492:07:53

undermine that in any way. It deals

with the specific area of the law in

2:07:532:08:00

relation to family reunion, a

concept which is accepted in our law

2:08:002:08:05

and indeed, is accepted in

government policy. The issue is,

2:08:052:08:09

however, that in practice, some

areas of the law do not work well or

2:08:092:08:15

fail. The Bill does no more than try

to improve the law in that regard

2:08:152:08:18

and make it work in a favour

fashion, for, as has been observed,

2:08:182:08:24

a very small number of people. The

real issues about pull factors, be

2:08:242:08:31

they right or wrong, are addressing

other policy initiatives that the

2:08:312:08:35

government has put in place, that

nothing to do with this Bill. This

2:08:352:08:39

is a modest but very useful measure

and it would do well to keep in

2:08:392:08:44

context. I want to deal with a

couple of points. Yes, the position

2:08:442:08:51

of legal aid in family reunion

geysers is being considered by the

2:08:512:08:55

Lord Chancellor and I am glad of

that. The Justice select committee

2:08:552:08:59

has pressed long and hard for there

to be a review of that. But that

2:08:592:09:03

does not mean that you should not

also seek to entrench the laws in

2:09:032:09:09

this Bill. It is very important, the

evidence we had, there was a

2:09:092:09:15

misapprehension that cases of this

kind are simple and straightforward.

2:09:152:09:18

The evidence clearly demonstrated

from practitioners in the fields,

2:09:182:09:22

British Red Cross and other lawyers,

do demonstrate that in the vast

2:09:222:09:28

majority of cases, it is in fact

quite complicated. And you only have

2:09:282:09:33

to think, genuine refugees, the

genuine refugee leaves in fear. As I

2:09:332:09:38

made the point earlier, they are not

likely to have time or inclination

2:09:382:09:43

to go to a tick box exercise as to

what documentation they may need at

2:09:432:09:47

some point further down the future,

under regulations of which they had

2:09:472:09:52

no knowledge by the very nature of

things at the time they leave. They

2:09:522:09:56

then have to go through the process,

which is diabetic -- for perfectly

2:09:562:10:02

good reasons, they have to do so and

almost invariably, there will be a

2:10:022:10:07

foreign language, they have to do so

under circumstances of stress and

2:10:072:10:11

pressure. I notice from the research

of the British Red Cross, in

2:10:112:10:19

something like 74% of family reunion

cases, at least one of the original

2:10:192:10:24

documentation that is required under

current rules was missing. That is

2:10:242:10:28

hardly surprising, the way these

people have fled and have ended up

2:10:282:10:34

here, and properly accepted, I

emphasise, as refugees, under the

2:10:342:10:38

legal conventions. Hardly

surprising. They then have to go

2:10:382:10:42

through the rigmarole of producing

witness statements, affidavits, to

2:10:422:10:47

explain why those missing. Or to

seek to get in touch with embassies

2:10:472:10:56

or consulates or powers, which by

their nature, are hardly likely to

2:10:562:10:59

be friendly to them to try and seek

alternatives. The idea you can do

2:10:592:11:01

that without legal assistance seems

to me wrong, and if anyone socks to

2:11:012:11:04

practitioners and judges, they will

tell you that much time is wasted,

2:11:042:11:08

both in our court system and for

people and difficult circumstance,

2:11:082:11:12

where early legal advice could in

fact, not only have potty just

2:11:122:11:17

outcome, but probably would have

saved money for the system as well.

2:11:172:11:30

Secondly, at the moment, the issue

around exceptional cases is in

2:11:302:11:34

guidance. That is something that, in

practice, the bar on these cases is

2:11:342:11:42

extremely high, being rare is the

phrase that is used. That may go

2:11:422:11:46

further than is appropriate,

particularly without legal advice to

2:11:462:11:49

help you through the minefield as to

how you get over it, or not, the

2:11:492:11:53

bar. The Bill seeks to put that same

principle but that is an exceptional

2:11:532:12:00

case into statute and that has the

advantage of converting different

2:12:002:12:09

rights. I will give way.

2:12:092:12:16

I agree with most of what he said.

There is another problem, people are

2:12:162:12:22

meant to believe it takes 13 weeks

when it takes months. That can cause

2:12:222:12:27

unnecessary hardship and delays and

anxiety. He is entirely right. Any

2:12:272:12:34

delay in any kind of tribunal case

causes pressure and hardship and

2:12:342:12:39

makes far less effective justice

because the longer things drag on,

2:12:392:12:42

the harder it is to make sure

evidence is good and genuine. It is

2:12:422:12:47

particularly hard in cases like

this. I do hope that honourable

2:12:472:12:52

members will support this bill and

if they do not feel they can support

2:12:522:12:55

it or they think that changes are

needed, that they will not prevent

2:12:552:13:00

it going forward. We will see

changes and improvements can be made

2:13:002:13:09

at the committee stage.

As someone

who believes passionately, someone

2:13:092:13:18

who believes passionately that I

joined the party of Harold Macmillan

2:13:182:13:24

and indeed of Margaret Thatcher, who

did a great deal to support the

2:13:242:13:28

communities that came from East

Africa when she became leader of our

2:13:282:13:34

party, at I hope no one will stand

in the way of this bill making

2:13:342:13:37

progress today.

Thank you. Let me

begin by thanking the honourable

2:13:372:13:50

member who has introduced this bill

and all the other members who have

2:13:502:13:54

signed to support this bill. Deputy

Speaker, I want to start by putting

2:13:542:13:59

on record my thanks for the joint

group of Oxfam, Red Cross, refugee

2:13:592:14:08

Council, UNHCR and the UN

International and many other

2:14:082:14:11

charities for their campaign on this

issue. The coalition of charities

2:14:112:14:17

shows the breadth and the strength

of support for a refugee family

2:14:172:14:21

reunion. And we have also seen this

morning that many members have put

2:14:212:14:29

forward clear and convincing

arguments in support of the bill

2:14:292:14:32

today. I will use my time, which

will be brief, because I want to

2:14:322:14:37

ensure that we do have a vote on

this, to outline why the Bill

2:14:372:14:45

appeals to Labour values of

fairness, respecting human rights

2:14:452:14:49

and protecting the vulnerable in our

society and therefore, why we will

2:14:492:14:55

be supporting it. The Labour Party

believes in respect for human

2:14:552:14:59

rights, they are at the centre of

our approach to foreign policy,

2:14:592:15:05

development and treatment of

migrants and refugees on our soil.

2:15:052:15:09

This includes the right to family

life. At the moment, the definition

2:15:092:15:18

of who is considered close family

for the purposes of family reunion

2:15:182:15:23

is narrow. It includes the spouse or

a partner of an adult refugee

2:15:232:15:30

ordered their dependent children

under the age of 18. It does not

2:15:302:15:35

include Young siblings, elderly

parents or older dependent children.

2:15:352:15:41

Doesn't he agree that the small

change of allowing families to

2:15:412:15:45

sponsor their immediate families

would be an easy change which would

2:15:452:15:48

affect a small number of child

refugees but we have an impact in

2:15:482:15:52

the way that we treat child refugees

in this country?

Thank you. Let me

2:15:522:15:58

thank the honourable member for his

contribution. I do agree and that is

2:15:582:16:02

something that I will also be

saying. We have a perverse situation

2:16:022:16:09

where unaccompanied children are not

allowed to bring their close family

2:16:092:16:12

members to join them in the same way

as an adult can. These are already

2:16:122:16:20

some of the most vulnerable children

in our society, they face language

2:16:202:16:27

and cultural barriers on top of the

trauma of being forced to flee war

2:16:272:16:31

and violence. We are one of the only

countries in Europe to further deny

2:16:312:16:36

them the right to reunite with their

families. Evidence shows that

2:16:362:16:42

refugees who are not permitted to be

joined by close relatives struggle

2:16:422:16:47

to integrate. It is clear that so

long as there are push factors of

2:16:472:16:54

war, violence and persecution,

people will be forced to flee from

2:16:542:16:57

their homes. Safe and legal routes

to family reunion interrupts the

2:16:572:17:04

work of smugglers and people

traffickers. This side of the House

2:17:042:17:11

welcomes some recent government

achievements. The treaty committed

2:17:112:17:18

to speeding up the process for

refugees in France to join family

2:17:182:17:22

members in the UK. We welcome

investment in processing of Dublin

2:17:222:17:27

cases and agree that we need to look

at the whole route of refugees. On a

2:17:272:17:33

personal level, I do believe that

the Minister takes seriously her

2:17:332:17:38

obligations to refugees. And at once

to fulfil Britain's commitments to

2:17:382:17:42

honourable -- vulnerable children in

particular. Fulfilling our existing

2:17:422:17:48

commitments is not enough. The

government has not yet promised that

2:17:482:17:51

this agreement will continue after

Brexit or to bring a change to the

2:17:512:17:57

UK's rules to align them with the

current Dublin three permissions. In

2:17:572:18:03

a recent Westminster debate, the

minister said, I regarded to be an

2:18:032:18:09

absolute priority to take the 480

young people we have committed to,

2:18:092:18:15

under the Dubs scheme. This is

encouraging, but 480 young people is

2:18:152:18:22

well below the original intention of

the Dubs Amendment which was to

2:18:222:18:29

resettle 3000 young people. It is

significantly less than the 10,000

2:18:292:18:34

refugees a year that the UN has

called on Britain to take. The

2:18:342:18:38

refugee crisis is large and a

complex challenge. Reforming the

2:18:382:18:45

family reunion rules would be a

simple and direct way to help

2:18:452:18:49

refugees in the UK and to deter

others from making the dangerous

2:18:492:18:53

journey here. What ever immigration

system we have, it should be managed

2:18:532:19:01

fairly. At the moment, our

immigration rules are complex and

2:19:012:19:07

enforced inconsistently. The Red

Cross found that refugee family

2:19:072:19:12

reunion is not a straightforward

immigration matter, only qualified

2:19:122:19:18

legal advisers can deal with the

significant and diverse complexities

2:19:182:19:23

of the refugee family reunion

process. In his article, yesterday,

2:19:232:19:31

the labours Shadow Justice Secretary

expressed sentiment I agree with.

2:19:312:19:36

When people cannot afford to defend

their rights, then they are not

2:19:362:19:45

worth the paper written on. This is

the case with family reunion at the

2:19:452:19:51

moment. Since 2012, immigration has

been outside the scope of legal aid

2:19:512:19:57

in England and Wales, although not

in Scotland and Northern Ireland. It

2:19:572:20:02

is only fair that navigating the

system up against the bureaucracy

2:20:022:20:07

and resources of the Home Office,

applicants should have accessed to

2:20:072:20:12

legal aid. The government is

currently undertaking a review of

2:20:122:20:17

legal aid provision. I worry that

refugee family reunion will be such

2:20:172:20:23

a small but of this review, a small

part of this review, that the urgent

2:20:232:20:28

need in this area, could easily be

overlooked. Labour's own review of

2:20:282:20:34

legal aid provision is recommended

that areas are family immigration

2:20:342:20:38

law should also be brought back into

scope. Specifically family reunion.

2:20:382:20:44

Labour supports this bill because it

would reintroduce legal aid for

2:20:442:20:48

every family. In conclusion, we want

to live in a society that is fair,

2:20:482:20:58

integrated and respects human

rights. We have seen some progress

2:20:582:21:03

on child refugees, but there is

clearly more to be done. Reforming

2:21:032:21:09

family reunion rules is a simple but

important step to addressing

2:21:092:21:14

anomalies in our refugee system. It

would affect a small number of

2:21:142:21:21

people, but it would be

transformational for their lives.

2:21:212:21:25

Based on Labour values of fairness,

human rights and protecting the most

2:21:252:21:30

vulnerable, we on this side of the

House will support the second

2:21:302:21:33

reading and I hope the rest of the

members do as well.

Thank you very

2:21:332:21:39

much and I am very proud to sponsor

this bill. I congratulate the

2:21:392:21:46

honourable gentleman opposite and

endorse everything that he's said in

2:21:462:21:50

his excellent opening remarks and of

course I fully adopt everything that

2:21:502:21:55

we have said, in particular, by my

honourable friend from Chislehurst.

2:21:552:21:59

Ever the lawyer, he makes the valid

point that this is a very modest

2:21:592:22:06

piece of legislation, it makes the

existing legislation, not just

2:22:062:22:10

proves that, but it also makes it

considerably fairer. I would also

2:22:102:22:15

join him in saying to honourable

colleagues notably on this side of

2:22:152:22:19

the house, if as I understand, you

2:22:192:22:31

might find yourself in a position

unable to support the bill,

2:22:342:22:36

nevertheless, let it go through to

its third reading and any of these

2:22:362:22:39

problems can be arrant out. This is

a small measure and it is also an

2:22:392:22:42

incredibly important measure. It

sends out a strong signal from these

2:22:422:22:44

benches, about the sort of

conservatives we are all proud to

2:22:442:22:46

call ourselves and if I may make

this observation, it is very easy to

2:22:462:22:52

take a group of people and attached

to them a label. Which actually then

2:22:522:23:00

disassociate yourself from seeing

each and every person in that group

2:23:002:23:05

as what they are, a human being,

with a story to tell. I begin my

2:23:052:23:13

remarks by reminding everybody what

a refugee is. Refugee is someone who

2:23:132:23:18

has been forced to leave their

country, forced to leave their

2:23:182:23:27

country, to escape persecution, war

or natural disaster. So this is not

2:23:272:23:32

a free choice. You don't wake up of

a morning and say, I think today I

2:23:322:23:38

will leave everything I have ever

known and loved for generations and

2:23:382:23:43

I will make myself a refugee. And I

will dwell on that in a moment.

2:23:432:23:49

First, I want to pay tribute to my

own conservative council. We have

2:23:492:23:57

taken in four Syrian families, we

have accommodated them and provided

2:23:572:24:01

for them and also given them a

welcome, we continue to support

2:24:012:24:05

them, because each of those families

is in our country for a very good

2:24:052:24:10

reason, not just because they are

refugees as I have described, but in

2:24:102:24:16

particular, at least one member of

their family suffered in a way which

2:24:162:24:23

really does go beyond some of our

comprehension. These are people who

2:24:232:24:26

have had a family member who has

either been tortured or has been the

2:24:262:24:31

subject of some sort of sexual abuse

or they have a particular medical

2:24:312:24:35

need which means the last place they

need to be is in a refugee camp or

2:24:352:24:41

in the sort of accommodation that

the Jordanian government has very

2:24:412:24:45

rightly provided for them. There

need is even greater and I am proud

2:24:452:24:49

that we have given them a home in my

constituency. I am proud of the work

2:24:492:24:54

that

2:24:542:25:04

this government done when it comes

to the provision of aid for

2:25:132:25:15

refugees, but if we look at more

recent times, the provision we are

2:25:152:25:18

making for the Rohingya Muslims in

Bangladesh. When I went to Jordan,

2:25:182:25:20

just over a year ago, as a guest of

Oxfam with the honourable member who

2:25:202:25:23

represents tooting, I have to say

that that reality, that human being,

2:25:232:25:26

not the label on a group of people,

but meeting individuals, was one of

2:25:262:25:28

the most profound things that has

ever happened to me in my life,

2:25:282:25:32

because I met that teacher, a man,

living in two rooms, with his two

2:25:322:25:39

children and his wife. In the cold,

around one of those peculiar gas

2:25:392:25:45

heaters that is provided. I would be

very blunt, Mr Deputy Speaker, in my

2:25:452:25:53

description of this remarkable man.

I saw in his eyes, frankly, I saw

2:25:532:25:58

Shane. In his eyes. He felt almost

ashamed that he was living in these

2:25:582:26:06

circumstances. I am not saying that

he was a proud man in any way, but I

2:26:062:26:10

would not be surprised if he was,

but to find himself in those

2:26:102:26:15

circumstances, this is a real human

being. He did not make this a choice

2:26:152:26:22

three any real desire other than to

escape the real horrors of Syria. He

2:26:222:26:30

left his job, he left his home, I

met other people who had left

2:26:302:26:34

successful businesses, it does not

matter what class or trade they

2:26:342:26:39

might have. They are human beings

who fled terrible circumstances,

2:26:392:26:45

they must have been terrible or else

they would not have left!

2:26:452:26:50

They scooped up the barest of

possessions. They don't think, have

2:26:562:27:00

I got this piece of paper, they just

get out.

I will give way. I have a

2:27:002:27:07

similar case. A young architect who

escaped from Syria, she was

2:27:072:27:13

separated from her husband, and he

finally, with help from my office,

2:27:132:27:19

managed to get to the country. They

are both practising architects now

2:27:192:27:24

contributing to the country. But

they escaped war-torn Syria and were

2:27:242:27:27

separated. This bill will allow

other such families to thrive and

2:27:272:27:34

contribute to our country.

There are

many such examples. I went to a

2:27:342:27:43

refugee camp and met a 19-year-old

who had lived in a tin shed for four

2:27:432:27:48

years. His father had had his own

business in Syria. Again, he scooped

2:27:482:27:53

up everything and fled through

terror. And there was this

2:27:532:27:58

19-year-old. It was a genuinely

concerning and distressing sight to

2:27:582:28:04

expedience. Where was his whole? He

had been there for four years. He

2:28:042:28:08

didn't want to be in that place. He

could not work, and although our

2:28:082:28:14

government is doing a fine job in

providing education for his younger

2:28:142:28:19

siblings, for him, where was his

whole? Because the second most

2:28:192:28:23

striking feature I experienced was

this clear desire to go home. They

2:28:232:28:28

do not want to be living in those

conditions. They want to go home,

2:28:282:28:33

they want to go back to the country

which they are so proud of. Imagine

2:28:332:28:39

if year after year after year, you

could see that possibility of

2:28:392:28:42

returning to your home disappearing?

These are remarkable people, their

2:28:422:28:50

hope, their strength, their

humanity, the way they kept

2:28:502:28:52

themselves together, somehow with a

semblance of pride, has never left

2:28:522:28:57

me. And of course, I will give way.

I thank her for giving way. I too

2:28:572:29:04

went to that place and what she has

just said about the concern that

2:29:042:29:09

people eventually lose hope. That is

absolutely right. Things are not

2:29:092:29:14

easy in Jordan, although they could

be worse. Having made that trip,

2:29:142:29:17

would she feel the concern I have

about the pull factor arguments,

2:29:172:29:22

that eventually it is too much by

people. It is genuine concern.

I

2:29:222:29:30

completely understand. But I just

don't believe there is any evidence

2:29:302:29:35

to support it. Let us all now stop

and just get real. History tells us,

2:29:352:29:43

the honourable gentleman opposite

went back to biblical times. We have

2:29:432:29:46

referred to the plight of the Jewish

people in countries like Germany.

2:29:462:29:52

These are people living in the most

appalling conditions, surrounded by

2:29:522:29:57

war and terror, and it is day after

day, it is month after month and it

2:29:572:30:01

has been year after year. To suggest

that you take your child and try to

2:30:012:30:07

get it out of that horror, because

deliberately, cruelly using it so

2:30:072:30:14

that you can follow it, is frankly

as appalling as it is clearly not

2:30:142:30:21

right. It is verging on madness.

People don't do it for that reason.

2:30:212:30:27

They may well say, how the hell can

I get my children out of here,

2:30:272:30:31

because of the love and concern they

have about child, just like the

2:30:312:30:35

Jewish people did in Germany to keep

that child safe. Nothing has changed

2:30:352:30:42

in mankind that over the centuries,

over the decades, your desired is to

2:30:422:30:46

keep

2:30:462:30:56

your child safe, not to use it as a

route for your own escape.

Let's

2:31:032:31:06

crush that one. And I would say

gently, people, where is the

2:31:062:31:08

evidence that people are doing that?

Genuine refugees, is the last thing

2:31:082:31:11

they do. I will give way. I

completely agree that family

2:31:112:31:13

reunification is in the interests of

health and humanity, but is allotted

2:31:132:31:15

in bed as it can are gangs of human

traffickers? It's a genuine concern,

2:31:152:31:19

and if we want to safeguard families

and children, we must that concern.

2:31:192:31:29

I say to my honourable friend, we

are talking about people who are

2:31:292:31:33

already here. Whose status has been

determined as genuine refugees. The

2:31:332:31:43

idea that there are gangs of people

smugglers in Syria, going through

2:31:432:31:48

this desperate war zone, with all

the destruction, looking for

2:31:482:31:53

families to somehow entice them to

put their children into their hands,

2:31:532:31:57

this is just the stuff of fantasy.

But the important point I am

2:31:572:32:05

seeking, it really is the stuff of

fantasy. It really, truly is. And

2:32:052:32:12

what I want... Hang on. The point I

am trying to get to in all of this

2:32:122:32:18

is that it is beholden on all of us

to conduct these important debates

2:32:182:32:23

on the basis of facts and evidence.

Yes, at times, emotion. But look at

2:32:232:32:29

the problems we have in our country,

with the lack of understanding, and

2:32:292:32:34

if I may say, perhaps we have seen

that evidence and some of the

2:32:342:32:39

speeches given today. There is a

profound difference between somebody

2:32:392:32:44

who is living in a very poor set of

circumstances in a particular

2:32:442:32:48

country, who wants to come here and

may come here illegally. But that

2:32:482:32:56

person is an economic migrants. And

even if they are wrong in the way

2:32:562:32:59

that they go about coming into our

country, can we understand why that

2:32:592:33:07

person is coming here? These are not

people who come here to take, these

2:33:072:33:11

are people who come here to give.

The whole of our society, for

2:33:112:33:21

generations, for decades and first

centuries, is populated and peppered

2:33:212:33:25

with people who have come to this

country from other parts of the

2:33:252:33:29

country to build a better life for

themselves and their children. That

2:33:292:33:34

is why I have always welcomed them,

because they contribute by virtue of

2:33:342:33:41

their immigration status, fleeing

poverty, become for a life that is

2:33:412:33:47

better, and they did not expect us

to provide for them.

She is making a

2:33:472:33:54

heartfelt speech. Perhaps I can

articulate the concern. We hear that

2:33:542:33:59

this Bill only relates to children

who are already here, but my

2:33:592:34:03

understanding is it will apply to

future child refugees and the

2:34:032:34:07

concern on these benches is that, as

people traffickers take advantage of

2:34:072:34:12

our changes, then of course, more

could be pulled into desperate

2:34:122:34:16

situations where they are taking

advantage of. Our concern is on

2:34:162:34:20

welfare, not on the other points.

You miss the point. The point is,

2:34:202:34:28

these are refugees with the status

of refugees. They have been through

2:34:282:34:32

all the systems, they are accepted

as genuine refugees, and this is

2:34:322:34:40

just a fake and fully point that is

being put forward. The point I am

2:34:402:34:46

trying to make is this, it says a

lot that we have seen examples of

2:34:462:34:52

this, not understanding the

difference between economic migrant

2:34:522:34:56

and somebody who is a refugee. And

it it even extends, and some of us,

2:34:562:35:00

and I'm not trying to get into

Brexit, but during the referendum

2:35:002:35:06

debate, people right they were

raising the issue of immigration. I

2:35:062:35:10

am that person who had a

conversation with a constituent, who

2:35:102:35:14

said she was voting Leaves, because

there were too many Muslims in our

2:35:142:35:18

country. That is the level of the

debate within our nation. That is

2:35:182:35:24

the level of plain misunderstanding

and miss information. That is why

2:35:242:35:29

this debate is so important. I will

give way.

If there is any truth in

2:35:292:35:35

the idea of an anchor is sending

someone forward, the adult has a

2:35:352:35:40

right to be here, but we know from

the adult experience, this is

2:35:402:35:45

nonsense. As she says, it is

fantasy. When you are refugee, it is

2:35:452:35:50

not that you wake up one morning

deciding, it is circumstances around

2:35:502:35:54

you that force you to go, adult or

child.

I will bring my remarks to a

2:35:542:36:01

conclusion. Of course I agree with

everything the honourable member has

2:36:012:36:05

said. He is absolutely right.

Honourable members had nothing to

2:36:052:36:10

fear in this piece of legislation.

It is the right thing to do.

2:36:102:36:14

Legally, it is the right thing to

do, and morally, it is the right

2:36:142:36:19

thing to do. Even if you cannot vote

for it, please add steam, but please

2:36:192:36:23

go better than that and support this

excellent piece of legislation.

I

2:36:232:36:30

stand proudly today in support of

this Bill and I would like to

2:36:302:36:34

congratulate the honourable member

in his determination in bringing

2:36:342:36:38

this Bill forward, despite some

efforts from people in this chamber

2:36:382:36:42

to short little empathy and trying

to frustrate this process. I support

2:36:422:36:45

this Bill for my refugee and migrant

constituents in Sheffield the and

2:36:452:36:53

Hillsborough, and further our loved

ones who are unable to join them.

2:36:532:36:56

This Bill will give a lifeline to

families torn apart first by

2:36:562:37:00

conflict and then again buyer and

fear and nonsensical immigration

2:37:002:37:05

rules. Currently, refugees can only

be joined by parents or children

2:37:052:37:09

under the age of 18. Unaccompanied

children cannot currently sponsor

2:37:092:37:14

anyone to join them. This Bill will

expand to qualifies as family so

2:37:142:37:19

that vulnerable people such as the

elderly and children over the age of

2:37:192:37:24

18 may be able to reunite with their

families in the UK. It will allow

2:37:242:37:28

unaccompanied children have to

adjust to life in the UK without a

2:37:282:37:33

single family member to support

them, to sponsor relatives to join

2:37:332:37:36

them. Today, I support the Bill,

because some of my constituents do

2:37:362:37:41

not know when they will see their

families again. A young man from

2:37:412:37:47

Syria came to study in the UK in

2006. But when he attempted to

2:37:472:37:53

return to his hometown after his

studies, he was forced to flee again

2:37:532:37:58

and make the perilous journey back

to the UK. He settled in Sheffield

2:37:582:38:03

and applied for a visa to visit his

family, who had made it past the

2:38:032:38:09

Syria border to Turkey. But he was

rejected. He sought help from every

2:38:092:38:13

agency available to be able to be

reunited with his family, but to no

2:38:132:38:19

avail. In 2016, the government

brought in the Vulnerable Persons

2:38:192:38:25

Relocation Scheme. He applied. Later

that year, he was finally informed

2:38:252:38:30

his family had been registered and

his case passed to the Home Office.

2:38:302:38:35

But two years on and six years after

attempting to see his loved ones, he

2:38:352:38:39

has yet to receive a single piece of

correspondence telling him when

2:38:392:38:44

exactly his family can join him. It

is hard to believe that he and his

2:38:442:38:49

family are considered some of the

lucky ones. When I asked why his

2:38:492:38:55

family eventually qualified for the

scheme, he told me that his elderly

2:38:552:39:00

parents had developed serious health

problems, in part because of his

2:39:002:39:03

older brother, who was tragically

killed by a handmade bomb. And they

2:39:032:39:09

are the lucky ones. And they are

still waiting. I cannot imagine what

2:39:092:39:15

he and his family have gone through.

I also cannot imagine the grief and

2:39:152:39:20

worry that he could have been saved.

And had he been aided by a process,

2:39:202:39:25

which from the start, regarded as

parents and sister as family in the

2:39:252:39:30

way that we would for any citizen,

they might very well be with him

2:39:302:39:35

today. Today, I am supporting this

Bill, because children are missing

2:39:352:39:40

their grandparents, their uncles and

aunts and their siblings. In

2:39:402:39:46

November, 21 pupils from an academy

in Sheffield wrote to me about the

2:39:462:39:51

injustice of our immigration rules.

Many of them are refugees or have

2:39:512:39:55

parents who arrived in this country

as refugees and then settled.

I will

2:39:552:40:00

give way. She said she was

supporting this Bill because it

2:40:002:40:08

would help reunite grandparents and

aunties and uncles. It was my

2:40:082:40:11

understanding the Bill did not

extend to those categories.

That is

2:40:112:40:15

a point and it is an aspiration of

mind to see that everyone has the

2:40:152:40:18

right to be reunited with their

families. I will continue. Many of

2:40:182:40:22

them are growing up not knowing

their relatives. They are just

2:40:222:40:25

children, but even the good point

out that the UK is not adhering to

2:40:252:40:32

the UN Convention on the rights of

the child. These pupils urge me to

2:40:322:40:40

challenge the government's double

standard on who qualifies for family

2:40:402:40:43

when you are refugee. Answer me, why

should UK citizens be able to call

2:40:432:40:49

their grandparents and siblings and

cousins family when this right is

2:40:492:40:53

not afforded to refugees? Why should

unaccompanied child refugees not be

2:40:532:40:57

allowed to sponsor anyone to come

and live with them? Imagine fleeing

2:40:572:41:01

your war-torn home so save your life

to come to the UK and trying to

2:41:012:41:08

start a life all over again. Imagine

the trauma you have experienced.

2:41:082:41:12

Imagine the difficulties and

turbulence of adolescence while also

2:41:122:41:15

having to learn to cook, clean, read

and write without having your

2:41:152:41:20

parents there to guide you. And then

imagine being told your family

2:41:202:41:24

cannot join you. I cannot. In my

opinion, this is too much to bear.

2:41:242:41:29

We do not have any government

statistics on specific family

2:41:292:41:34

reunion applications, although we

know these now make up the majority

2:41:342:41:37

of refugee applications. This is

telling. We're not paying enough

2:41:372:41:42

attention to the issues that matter

to refugees in this country. We're

2:41:422:41:47

not giving them the support they

need. I am so proud of Sheffield and

2:41:472:41:52

legacy of welcoming refugees. We

have provided a home to over 1500

2:41:522:41:57

refugees is 2014 and is one of the

areas in which the Rubble Person

2:41:572:42:02

Relocation Scheme is being carried

out. Let's do more. With the spirit

2:42:022:42:08

of Sheffield and pass this Bill so

that families can start to rebuild

2:42:082:42:12

their lives.

2:42:122:42:25

May I also congratulate the

gentleman whose constituency I will

2:42:252:42:28

not try to pronounce for bringing

forward this import bill on such an

2:42:282:42:33

important issue? In order to debate

this bill properly, I think it is

2:42:332:42:36

important to look at everything the

government is doing to help refugees

2:42:362:42:40

and those fleeing conflict and

persecution as opposed to just this

2:42:402:42:45

bill in isolation. Context in this

case is very important. We have been

2:42:452:42:50

investing in how we can support the

most vulnerable refugees through

2:42:502:42:55

resettlement programmes such as

those bringing Syrian refugees to

2:42:552:42:58

Britain. By 2020, 20,000 Syrian

refugees will have been resettled

2:42:582:43:03

and around half of that already

arrived. I am proud to represent

2:43:032:43:08

Colchester and my residents who have

been so welcoming of those who have

2:43:082:43:12

made their home in our town and I

would particularly like to commend

2:43:122:43:16

the work of fresh beginnings who do

such great work. We are also

2:43:162:43:25

resettling 3000 vulnerable refugee

children and family members from

2:43:252:43:28

conflict zones in the Middle East

and North Africa and this is on top

2:43:282:43:33

of the unaccompanied child refugees

brought from Europe under the Dubs

2:43:332:43:36

scheme which members will note, I

supported. I know that some in this

2:43:362:43:41

chamber and it has been referenced

by several members so far feel it is

2:43:412:43:45

not enough, but we should be clear

that this government is playing its

2:43:452:43:49

part in helping those who are in

need of sanctuary. In 2016, the UK

2:43:492:44:05

settled more refugees from outside

Europe than any other EU states. And

2:44:062:44:08

Eurostat figures show that over one

third of people resettled in the EU

2:44:082:44:11

came to the UK. We need every

European country to be playing their

2:44:112:44:13

part. It has long been established

that the Dublin regulations that

2:44:132:44:17

asylum seekers should apply for

asylum in the first EU state they

2:44:172:44:20

arrive at and I accept that this can

be an incredible administrative

2:44:202:44:24

burden on some of these nations. It

is right that we do what we can to

2:44:242:44:29

help and this government has

committed £3.6 million to help

2:44:292:44:34

strengthen cooperation with France

on the operation of the Dublin

2:44:342:44:38

Regulation and the development fund.

We will continue, I have no doubt to

2:44:382:44:41

work with them to identify projects

which support genuine claims through

2:44:412:44:47

the Dublin process. These are not

the

2:44:472:44:59

actions of a government that does

not care about refugees.

This, in my

2:45:002:45:03

view, is about getting the existing

regulations working properly. About

2:45:032:45:05

ensuring... I am most grateful to

you for giving way and I respect the

2:45:052:45:08

decision he took on the Dubs

Amendment. I wonder if he has

2:45:082:45:10

thoughts, I have been pondering the

earlier remarks by the chairman of

2:45:102:45:15

the Select Committee, about what she

is concerned about, the case in

2:45:152:45:19

Greece, that children may not be

coming to this country about...

2:45:192:45:24

Because of concerns about the rules

and bringing in their parents. Would

2:45:242:45:29

he agree that that is something that

would be nice to hear from the

2:45:292:45:35

government on? Whether there is an

official Greece government position

2:45:352:45:38

as well.

I thank my friend for the

intervention and I would hope that

2:45:382:45:46

the minister will answer that

specific point when she rises to her

2:45:462:45:49

feet later on in this debate, but I

agree with him, and I might come

2:45:492:45:54

onto this later in my contribution,

which the other side of the house,

2:45:542:46:00

it will be relatively brief. This is

something that potentially needs to

2:46:002:46:04

be addressed but I do not think it

addresses the fundamental reasoning

2:46:042:46:08

in terms of supporting this bill or

not. As I said, I think this is

2:46:082:46:13

about getting the existing

regulations working properly and I

2:46:132:46:16

think many would say that they are

not working properly at the moment.

2:46:162:46:22

It is also, I should say, about

ensuring that refugees can be

2:46:222:46:27

identified, that is the most

important thing and then reunited

2:46:272:46:29

with their families when they arrive

safely in Europe. We do reunite

2:46:292:46:34

families and I think that is a very

clear point to make. Over the past

2:46:342:46:40

five years, 24,700 family reunion of

have been issued. Since 2010, 40

2:46:402:46:48

9830 people have been provided with

protection status in the UK, a

2:46:482:46:52

status which means they are

2:46:522:47:04

entitled to apply for qualifying

family members to join them. So,

2:47:072:47:09

suggestions that somehow our

2:47:092:47:11

immigration rules prevent families

from being together simply not true.

2:47:112:47:12

Of course, the rules allow for the

partner and dependent children under

2:47:122:47:14

the age of 18 to come to the UK and

unaccompanied child refugees are not

2:47:142:47:17

allowed to sponsor applications from

family members. Yet, the rules also

2:47:172:47:22

provide for scope to grant leave

outside the rules in exceptional

2:47:222:47:25

circumstances and I think that is an

important point. This can allow for

2:47:252:47:30

dependent children over the age of

18 to be reunited with family

2:47:302:47:35

members in the United Kingdom.

There

are also... Thank you for giving

2:47:352:47:40

way. Exceptional circumstances could

apply to so many of those who have

2:47:402:47:46

sought refugee status in the UK. My

dear friend in Oxford, she came to

2:47:462:47:53

this country, having converted to

Christianity, in Iran, she was

2:47:532:47:56

persecuted and had to leave, but as

a result of getting refugee status

2:47:562:48:00

here, the rest of her family now

face equal persecution, some had

2:48:002:48:05

been incarcerated and others have

been forced to flee. Is that not an

2:48:052:48:10

exceptional circumstance?

I thank

the Honourable lady for her

2:48:102:48:13

intervention and they do not know

the full situation in terms of that

2:48:132:48:16

particular case and I would strongly

advise her to raise that with the

2:48:162:48:19

Minister. The wider point I am

2:48:192:48:31

making is that there is already a

process, by which the family

2:48:352:48:38

reunification route can be taken and

I appreciate her point around

2:48:382:48:40

exceptional circumstances and I

would advise her to raise that issue

2:48:402:48:42

with the minister. I will come back

to you in a moment, I will make some

2:48:422:48:45

progress. I think we need to address

the current system and problems with

2:48:452:48:48

the current system before looking at

further legislation. I will come

2:48:482:48:50

onto some of the concerns that the

lady raised in a few moments. There

2:48:502:48:54

are also resettlement schemes, such

as mandate that can help eligible

2:48:542:48:57

refugees with close family ties to

the UK and I also think we need to

2:48:572:49:03

recognise that widening eligibility

as this bill does will do nothing to

2:49:032:49:07

tackle the refugee crisis in and of

itself. Issues around this bill,

2:49:072:49:12

creating a pull factor, that has

been raised by numerous members. I

2:49:122:49:16

know that some have put opposing

views to that and I entirely respect

2:49:162:49:21

those, but I think it is widely

accepted that push factors of civil

2:49:212:49:25

war and persecution are the biggest

single deciding factor in whether

2:49:252:49:30

any individual chooses to flee their

country. As long as there is an

2:49:302:49:34

stability across the Middle East and

North Africa, then vulnerable people

2:49:342:49:37

will choose to continue to flee.

Also, we need to find sustainable

2:49:372:49:43

solutions to these problems as well

as supporting those that are

2:49:432:49:47

affected. Mr Deputy Speaker, I

believe that everyone in this

2:49:472:49:51

chamber wants to ensure that

eligible refugees are able to

2:49:512:49:55

reunite with family members in the

United Kingdom and I just think that

2:49:552:49:58

there are questions with regards to

the approach that we take and why I

2:49:582:50:02

remain to be convinced. I have not

made up my mind and I stress that I

2:50:022:50:08

want to listen to the remainder of

the debate. Not wanting to cause

2:50:082:50:11

undue discord in a debate which has

been constructive, I have to say

2:50:112:50:15

that I think it is somewhat

unhelpful for members of this house

2:50:152:50:19

to label colleagues who do not

necessarily feel able to support

2:50:192:50:23

this bill today as either lacking

empathy or being cold-hearted, which

2:50:232:50:27

has happened but then this chamber

and on social media. I admit, I am

2:50:272:50:32

yet to make up my mind on this

issue, on the Dubs Amendment, I made

2:50:322:50:37

up my mind midway through the

debate, much to the disappointment

2:50:372:50:41

of the government whips office.

People's minds can be changed and it

2:50:412:50:45

is not overly helpful to make those

comments about people who have not

2:50:452:50:52

yet made up their mind. The content

of the bill, accepting and noting

2:50:522:50:58

the contributions of colleagues who

have contributed so far, my concern

2:50:582:51:02

around the bill is that it wants to

rapidly widen the eligibility

2:51:022:51:07

criteria, while not acknowledging

the wider continuing problems with

2:51:072:51:11

the Dublin process or the potential

pool factors that might generate.

2:51:112:51:14

What we want to do is make the

Dublin regulations work and we are

2:51:142:51:19

investing in our European allies to

ensure that refugees, when they

2:51:192:51:22

arrive in Europe can be quickly

processed and family members

2:51:222:51:26

identified. That is in my

2:51:262:51:38

view the sensible approach and all

the while we are working hard to

2:51:392:51:42

resettle 23,000 vulnerable refugees.

I have always felt that we should

2:51:422:51:44

react swiftly and decisively in

response to large-scale crisis, such

2:51:442:51:46

as the Dubs scheme, which is why I

support, one of only five members on

2:51:462:51:49

the side of the House to do so. I do

not think this is the same as

2:51:492:51:54

widespread immigration reform. I

welcome this bill and the debate and

2:51:542:51:57

I think it has been good with

passionate contributions by numerous

2:51:572:52:00

members, I will listen to the

remainder of the debate before

2:52:002:52:07

forming a balanced view.

It is a

pleasure to follow the honourable

2:52:072:52:11

member for Colchester who I know

cares deeply about these issues and

2:52:112:52:14

who I hope to persuade in the course

of the remaining debate that this is

2:52:142:52:20

a bill that should pass its second

reading. That any concerns he may

2:52:202:52:24

have should be dealt with at

committee stage, because that would

2:52:242:52:28

be an opportunity to improve the

bill further. I think this is about

2:52:282:52:32

putting family at the heart of the

refugee system and family is

2:52:322:52:35

something that all of us care about.

In our house, our family is in a

2:52:352:52:47

state of chaos because aired who

does all of the cooking is 700 miles

2:52:472:52:50

in that direction, while our

18-year-old daughter is 700 miles in

2:52:502:52:54

that direction on her first trip

alone abroad. As they are, they are

2:52:542:53:00

in safe places, I know they will

come home very soon, but a part of

2:53:002:53:04

me as a way with them as well and I

keep checking my phone, particularly

2:53:042:53:08

to check that my daughter is OK and

that is what all of us do. Our

2:53:082:53:13

families are immensely important to

us. This bill is about what happens

2:53:132:53:16

when your family is not safe. About

what happens when your family is not

2:53:162:53:21

going to come home again, because

they cannot. It is about

2:53:212:53:35

what to go through the most awful

things in the world. When they maybe

2:53:552:53:58

have to watch a parent being

murdered or a child being raped,

2:53:582:54:00

when they may be have to flee their

homes because their neighbours homes

2:54:002:54:03

have been bombed. When they have to

make the most difficult journeys,

2:54:032:54:05

face exploitation and trafficking

and abuse along the way and when

2:54:052:54:07

some work along that journey, the

family gets split up. We know that

2:54:072:54:10

that happens to some many refugees

and we know that it is at that time

2:54:102:54:13

when you face the worst of humanity

that you need your family most. You

2:54:132:54:16

need those with whom you share a

history, with whom you share all of

2:54:162:54:18

that past and relationships even so

much of that history has been ripped

2:54:182:54:22

from you and your home has been

ripped from as well. We know that to

2:54:222:54:24

build family relationships is one of

the most important things about

2:54:242:54:26

being human. Actually, the refugee

scheme and the asylum system is all

2:54:262:54:29

about being human and about standing

up for humanity against the worst of

2:54:292:54:35

inhumanity, against barbarism,

against persecution, against the war

2:54:352:54:38

and conflict that can cause so much

chaos in the lives of families. That

2:54:382:54:43

in the end it is all that this bill

is about because at the moment the

2:54:432:54:48

current system is not working well

enough to keep refugees together, to

2:54:482:54:52

keep families together, when they

face the most difficult of times of

2:54:522:54:56

all. It is about the Eritrea and

mother who came here through a legal

2:54:562:55:02

settlement scheme, proper managed

scheme, but who cannot bring her

2:55:022:55:10

teenaged son because he is a very

tame and cannot be reunited with him

2:55:102:55:14

even though she has been through

terrible persecution along the way,

2:55:142:55:18

it is about a family from Syria

whose 18-year-old daughter is still

2:55:182:55:23

in the Lebanon and they cannot bring

her because she is over 18. The

2:55:232:55:29

government has a series of things

that they have set out in response

2:55:292:55:33

and other members opposite have in

response and I want to address

2:55:332:55:37

those, because I think there should

be a cross-party issue and so many

2:55:372:55:41

of the refugee discussions that we

have had in the bars, whether it is

2:55:412:55:46

the Dubs Amendment or going back to

the Kindertransport have been

2:55:462:55:49

cross-party debate and I think it

should be and could be again. We

2:55:492:55:55

need to talk about the bike that the

government might lead us to help

2:55:552:55:58

families and refugees in region.

That is excellent work that the

2:55:582:56:02

government does. We all wanted to

continue. We also know it is not an

2:56:022:56:08

either or and we would not expect

families to continue to be split up

2:56:082:56:12

and sufferers simply because we help

a lot more families in the region,

2:56:122:56:15

it is not a reason to also help

those. Secondly they say there is

2:56:152:56:21

discretion in the system. The

honourable member for Colchester

2:56:212:56:25

referred to the Mandate scheme and

others, but they do not work well

2:56:252:56:29

enough. In too many cases, the entry

officers use their discretion just

2:56:292:56:34

to say no, that nobody has the

resources to overturn that because

2:56:342:56:38

there is no legal aid in England to

be able to do with those cases and

2:56:382:56:42

because it is just too hard and too

difficult.

2:56:422:56:45

The discretion system is not working

at the moment.

Would she agree with

2:56:512:56:57

me that, having taken refugee

reunion out of scope, that that has

2:56:572:57:06

hasn't adverse impact and that all

this Bill is trying to do is

2:57:062:57:10

reintroduce something that was there

before. That would be greatly

2:57:102:57:15

beneficial to people applying for a

family reunion.

He is right. It is

2:57:152:57:20

hard for anybody to navigate the

immigration system we have or the

2:57:202:57:25

asylum system, but if you are trying

to pull together your family, to not

2:57:252:57:29

be able to get any legal aid does

make that so much harder. The next

2:57:292:57:35

reason people use is to say, this

will create a cool factor that

2:57:352:57:39

somehow this is going to make things

much worse. I think there are three

2:57:392:57:44

strong responses against that. The

first is the honourable member for

2:57:442:57:50

Broxtowe has clearly argued that

this is only about those who are

2:57:502:57:53

refugees. But that tests in the

system already and it's only about

2:57:532:57:58

those who have already demonstrated

that they meet all the criteria for

2:57:582:58:02

being refugees, they have shown they

have been fleeing persecution of

2:58:022:58:06

conflict and it is simply about

their ability to reunite with their

2:58:062:58:09

family. Many of them have come

through the legal resettlement

2:58:092:58:14

process that we all support, and the

government has rightly brought in

2:58:142:58:17

and extended. I give way to the

honourable member who has done so

2:58:172:58:22

much work on this.

She has

demolished the argument of the idea

2:58:222:58:29

of pull factor, because you have to

be a refugee, so that pull factor

2:58:292:58:33

argument is dead.

He is right on

that the huge tribute to the work he

2:58:332:58:38

has been doing. The second argument

is actually that the current system

2:58:382:58:43

encourages trafficking. The current

system encourages illegal routes and

2:58:432:58:48

dangerous routes, because there is

not a safe and legal route for

2:58:482:58:50

people to travel on. So far a family

whose daughter is in London, that I

2:58:502:58:57

spoke to some time ago, their

concern was that they would have a

2:58:572:59:01

choice about whether or not to try

and find a route through with

2:59:012:59:06

smugglers are traffickers, to try

and get to her, to be reunited,

2:59:062:59:10

because they did not have a legal

route to be able to do so. We are

2:59:102:59:15

already driving people into the arms

of traffickers, into the arms of

2:59:152:59:21

exploitation, and we should not do

that.

When I was in Georgian, I'm

2:59:212:59:26

sure she has had this experience as

well, magnificent efforts are being

2:59:262:59:32

made to settle refugees, but I came

across a family where the elderly

2:59:322:59:35

parents were going to one country

and the younger son with his wife

2:59:352:59:38

and their children... The

grandparents were going to Austria,

2:59:382:59:44

and they were going to Canada. At

the best will in the world, they

2:59:442:59:49

want to be together. That again

would encourage them to look at the

2:59:492:59:52

illegal ways to stay together, which

is what we all want to do with our

2:59:522:59:56

families.

She is exactly right, and

especially when you have been

2:59:563:00:02

through such difficult times and

lost your home that you shared, to

3:00:023:00:06

then be separated across the globe

is so much harder, and it is the

3:00:063:00:10

time you need most. My third

argument against the pull factor

3:00:103:00:16

view that is good forward, which is,

you are effectively saying to

3:00:163:00:22

people, you have to suffer more in

order to deter others. Saying to

3:00:223:00:27

those who have suffered most already

that they have to suffer more by not

3:00:273:00:33

being reunited with their families,

because somehow we are convinced it

3:00:333:00:38

might deter some fictional people

who we think are going to respond in

3:00:383:00:41

a particular way, when it is not the

evidence to show it. So when you

3:00:413:00:46

have real hardship and hacked of

families who are not being reunited,

3:00:463:00:51

do not make them suffer more in

order potentially to deter others,

3:00:513:00:56

where the evidence is not there.

I

thank her for letting the end but

3:00:563:01:04

also via outlining the case against

the pull factor. I did not want to

3:01:043:01:08

be shouted against, I wanted to hear

arguments. When I was at a refugee

3:01:083:01:17

camp, 66% of the camp population is

under 18, and there are about 79

3:01:173:01:22

births each week. The concern is

that, yes there are thousands at the

3:01:223:01:26

moment, but as soon as we change our

laws as a population, that is when

3:01:263:01:30

the pull factor could come in, by

the steady change. I wonder whether

3:01:303:01:34

she could address that concern.

I

just don't follow his argument. If

3:01:343:01:40

he had basically argued that any

kind of family reunion will somehow

3:01:403:01:46

act as the pull factor and therefore

should not happening, then that

3:01:463:01:50

would be an argument to have no

family reunion at all, for anybody,

3:01:503:01:54

for now husband or wife by anybody.

If that was the most important

3:01:543:01:58

thing. But nobody thinks that.

Everyone thinks family reunion is

3:01:583:02:03

important and that it is important

to make sure you can keep families

3:02:033:02:05

together.

The concern I have at the

moment is that families can come

3:02:053:02:12

through. If we change the law, it

may well be a very great and the

3:02:123:02:16

team will say, I will take that step

and this law will be allowed me to

3:02:163:02:20

bring you with me and that is a

concern I have.

Perhaps that

3:02:203:02:23

clarifies. If he was going to make

that argument convincingly, he would

3:02:233:02:29

be making this same argument about

the 19-year-old of the 20th order of

3:02:293:02:32

the 30-year-old and the 50-year-old.

The problem is, without the

3:02:323:02:37

evidence, and given that...

Remember, other countries across

3:02:373:02:42

Europe have these rules in place and

do not see it becoming a pull

3:02:423:02:48

factor, to Portland on all sorts of

other countries. I'm very conscious

3:02:483:02:54

of time I will give way one more

time, because I think it's an

3:02:543:03:00

important point to address.

I'm very

grateful to her, because she is

3:03:003:03:04

making a cogent argument and that is

what this place is for. She asked

3:03:043:03:07

for evidence. My honourable friend

the member for Somerset and Frew

3:03:073:03:12

mentioned Germany in 2015 and the

impact the change of policy they

3:03:123:03:17

had. But she comment on matters say

if that is evidence one way or the

3:03:173:03:21

other?

What happened in Germany was

at a time when we had huge migration

3:03:213:03:29

out of Syria, huge numbers of people

desperately fleeing Syria, the

3:03:293:03:34

height of the conflict. And also, it

is a lack of control in Turkey. Huge

3:03:343:03:48

numbers of people were crossing.

Migration of those who are fleeing

3:03:483:03:54

should be provided through legal,

safe and settled routes. That is why

3:03:543:03:57

I support the government said Ian

resettlement scheme, because it is

3:03:573:04:01

better to have legal, secret Santa

have unmanaged or illegal routes

3:04:013:04:04

through trafficking and so on. That

must be right, but we can make sure

3:04:043:04:09

we have a managed scheme to help

refugees, because that is exactly

3:04:093:04:15

what this Bill is all about. It is

about having legal settlement

3:04:153:04:21

routes, not about having unmanaged

migrant routes. We also know that if

3:04:213:04:24

you do not have those family reunion

resettlement legal routes, that is

3:04:243:04:28

when you get people being vulnerable

to traffickers are matters what

3:04:283:04:33

increases the illegal journeys and

dangerous journeys. For example, on

3:04:333:04:37

all of the visits I took to France,,

every young person I spoke to had

3:04:373:04:46

family in Britain. That is why they

were trying to get to Britain,

3:04:463:04:52

through these awful, dangerous

routes, because they were trying to

3:04:523:04:55

be reunited with family, because

they were trying to be reunited with

3:04:553:04:58

people to keep them safe. They were

not trying to make the journey to

3:04:583:05:02

bring other people, they were trying

to be reunited. Therefore, the

3:05:023:05:07

current system, without that legal

family roots, is what is causing so

3:05:073:05:11

many problems. A final point to

conclude. I know many members want

3:05:113:05:15

to come in. In the end, this is

about our humanity. All of us

3:05:153:05:22

believe that those close

relationships of love, of family, of

3:05:223:05:28

commitment, of a sense of

obligation, is at the heart of what

3:05:283:05:32

makes us human beings. It is the

heart of who we are, the heart of

3:05:323:05:36

the families who brought us into

this place to have debates about

3:05:363:05:41

this and argue about issues like

this. We should keep those values of

3:05:413:05:46

commitment, of obligation to other,

of love, of respect, of support for

3:05:463:05:51

our families, at the heart of our

refugee programme as well. That as

3:05:513:05:55

all this Bill tries to do. If you

want to amend it or change it or add

3:05:553:06:01

anything, by all means, do it and do

it in committee when we get to that

3:06:013:06:07

stage. But please, let's support

families now.

I am pleased to follow

3:06:073:06:19

her, elegant as ever. I'm pleased to

be able to speak about Britain's

3:06:193:06:24

rule and taking in refugees. The

opportunity has been presented

3:06:243:06:27

through this Bill, poignantly

debated today. I wanted to say at

3:06:273:06:34

the outset, that as a mother with

three children, who are now, I can't

3:06:343:06:38

believe it, but they are over 18. I

am very pleased that the government

3:06:383:06:48

is listening carefully to concerns

raised on this issue by

3:06:483:06:52

non-government organisations and

others and that Home Office

3:06:523:06:56

officials are currently reviewing

our approach to family reunion, as

3:06:563:07:00

part of the government's wider views

and assessment on asylum and

3:07:003:07:06

resettlement policy. Britain has a

very proud history of being a warm,

3:07:063:07:13

welcoming country for refugees

fleeing violence, persecution and

3:07:133:07:16

oppression and we only country

willing and able to help those in

3:07:163:07:18

need. About 0.24% of the population

are refugees and asylum seekers,

3:07:183:07:25

that's about 169,000 people. And

Somerset, I am pleased to say over

3:07:253:07:31

the years, has of course played its

part. Just one example, in the

3:07:313:07:38

1970s, many people who escaped from

Uganda, who were given 90 days to

3:07:383:07:42

escape with just anything they could

carry any few bags, thrown out by

3:07:423:07:47

Edie and then, many of them came to

Somerset. Over 27,000 people came

3:07:473:07:54

altogether, but in Somerset, many

came to camps. Many of those people

3:07:543:08:01

have stayed and made their lives at

home in Somerset, in Taunton Deane,

3:08:013:08:07

because as we all know, that's a

very fine place to live. We have

3:08:073:08:11

welcomed them, we have educated them

and then met just one of the other

3:08:113:08:15

day, who came my surgery. When I was

a news reporter for each TV,

3:08:153:08:21

interviewing many of those people

who escaped from Kosovo in that

3:08:213:08:26

terrible war there. And we welcome

them with open arms to the West

3:08:263:08:31

Country. Today, there is no less

call for humanitarian action across

3:08:313:08:35

the globe, and the UK has a

commendable record in the Middle

3:08:353:08:38

East. By 2020, 20,000 refugees from

Syria will have been resettled in

3:08:383:08:45

the UK, half of them have already

arrived. We have a very proud record

3:08:453:08:50

on this and in 2016, has been

referred to already by many

3:08:503:08:53

honourable members, the UK settled

more refugees from outside Europe

3:08:533:08:59

than any other EU state. That is a

brilliant record. According to

3:08:593:09:07

statistics, over one third of these

people resettled in the EU, came to

3:09:073:09:13

the UK. Back to my own constituency,

the community here has really

3:09:133:09:18

stepped up to take refugee family

groups. And although Somerset is not

3:09:183:09:22

an established a silent dispersal

area, Somerset County Council has

3:09:223:09:27

committed to take dozens of families

over the next three years, and I'm

3:09:273:09:31

really proud to support that. The

families are taught English, they

3:09:313:09:35

have access to counselling, support

and become a fully fledged member of

3:09:353:09:42

our community. That means going to

Brownies, playing Saturday football,

3:09:423:09:47

birthday parties, and adults having

access to our local allotments.

3:09:473:09:52

Because many of them want to grow

their crops they are used eating. So

3:09:523:09:57

we're very, very proud to welcome

them. And the community in Taunton

3:09:573:10:01

Deane has been especially welcoming

to families from Syria. Through a

3:10:013:10:09

charity established between the

churches, Taunton vineyard and Saint

3:10:093:10:16

Mary Magdalen, have successfully

worked with the local authority and

3:10:163:10:19

government to resettle a vulnerable

family from Syria in Taunton. The

3:10:193:10:23

family continues to receive support.

Volunteers in the community help of

3:10:233:10:31

them. They are completely engaged

within our community. I have met

3:10:313:10:34

with all these church leaders and

volunteers and I would like to

3:10:343:10:37

praise them by the dedicated work. I

will give way.

I thank my honourable

3:10:373:10:45

friend forgiving way. While we have

not had too much to beat today and

3:10:453:10:49

is probably unimportant to talk

about housing restraints and so on,

3:10:493:10:54

in terms of accepting refugees, one

thing for which seems to be no

3:10:543:10:59

limits on vivacity is a willingness

of our constituents to be a

3:10:593:11:04

welcoming group of people to the

refugees across the country.

3:11:043:11:16

Governments cannot always achieve

those goals.

I thank him for that

3:11:163:11:21

comment and did not reiterated more

strongly. In those terms, just as

3:11:213:11:27

last month, this charity have been

talking about, has announced the

3:11:273:11:31

news that the Home Office has

achieved the resettling of a second

3:11:313:11:37

refugee family in Taunton and they

will be very welcome. We must

3:11:373:11:39

remember the lasting impact that

welcoming vulnerable families into

3:11:393:11:43

the UK may have on our reputation.

And a letter from a father of the

3:11:433:11:49

first refugee family settled in

Taunton from Kurdistan. He look this

3:11:493:11:53

letter and posted it.

3:11:533:12:09

I will give way briefly.

Does you

not agree that she is very sick

3:12:123:12:19

simply unsuccessfully describing the

benefit that families together have

3:12:193:12:22

come as they try and create a life

in this country. And all this Bill

3:12:223:12:26

is doing is extending the option for

families to be together, to work in

3:12:263:12:32

constituencies and areas and bring

economic benefits all of us. I think

3:12:323:12:38

you'll find I'm agreeing with

everything you say that the

3:12:383:12:46

government has a tool box in place

and already achieving that, but

3:12:463:12:50

that's not to say that isn't an

opportunity to have a look and do

3:12:503:12:53

more. I know this government is

already on that particular case and

3:12:533:12:56

I hope they're taking notes today. I

know other people want to speak, so

3:12:563:13:02

I just wanted to go on to the

vulnerable families.

3:13:023:13:12

Sorry, I've done that, that was the

bit about the letters, I got

3:13:123:13:17

diverted by my intervention. But I

wanted still straight that we are

3:13:173:13:21

willing to take in people and to do

our best for them. I just wanted to

3:13:213:13:26

touch though on our current law, to

the point made by the honourable

3:13:263:13:30

member. In the last five years, we

have granted 24,000 families reunion

3:13:303:13:35

visas and these are free of charge

and free from the eligibility

3:13:353:13:40

criteria that usually apply to

family these applications. The law

3:13:403:13:44

ensures that those offered refugee

status in Britain are able to bring

3:13:443:13:48

their family unit, including

partners and dependent children

3:13:483:13:52

under 18. Other relations such as

dependent adults, adopted children

3:13:523:13:57

and post-fight family members are

rightly subject to different these

3:13:573:14:02

criteria such as fund and knowledge

of English. However, if applicable,

3:14:023:14:08

for instance, dependent children of

the age of 18, applicants may be

3:14:083:14:13

granted outside of the central rules

and in serious circumstances the law

3:14:133:14:17

allows for extended family members

to sponsor children. And it is right

3:14:173:14:21

that these exemptions are in place

and indeed they are used properly.

3:14:213:14:26

So I'm going to press on to be

clear, Mr Deputy Speaker. A great

3:14:263:14:30

deal of thought and attention has

gone into the system. The Government

3:14:303:14:34

is fully committed to implement

section 67 of the immigration act

3:14:343:14:38

2016. Ministers, as we have heard,

honourable members have visited

3:14:383:14:44

Greece and Italy to discuss

processes, taking into account

3:14:443:14:47

relevant national laws applicable in

implementing the scheme. The

3:14:473:14:50

Government have also invited

referrals of eligible children from

3:14:503:14:55

France, Greece, Italy and we are

working to ensure the safe

3:14:553:14:59

identification and transfer of

eligible children. And in

3:14:593:15:02

partnership with the UN refugee

agency operating numerous schemes,

3:15:023:15:06

many have been referred to already

such as Gateway, mandate, children

3:15:063:15:11

at risk and the vulnerable persons

relocation scheme to ensure that

3:15:113:15:14

those in most need are able to find

a secure home. The children at risk

3:15:143:15:19

scheme alone will be able to

resettle 3000 children and their

3:15:193:15:23

families from the Middle East and

North Africa over the course of this

3:15:233:15:26

Parliament. But in addition, this

has been referred to before, this

3:15:263:15:30

Government has an ongoing commitment

under the Dublin regulation and

3:15:303:15:34

continues to work closely with

member states and relevant partners

3:15:343:15:36

to ensure that children with

qualifying family in the UK can be

3:15:363:15:41

transferred quickly and safely to

have their asylum claim determined

3:15:413:15:45

in the UK. We are a country who

takes our moral obligations very

3:15:453:15:49

seriously and we wants to contribute

to making the world better place,

3:15:493:15:57

and it is important in our

generosity that we do not

3:15:573:16:01

inadvertently create circumstances

which would harm some of our most

3:16:013:16:04

vulnerable. We do not want to

encourage children to undertake

3:16:043:16:09

dangerous journeys hoping relatives

can join them later and fall prey to

3:16:093:16:15

human traffickers, which sadly

happens all too often. I'm going to

3:16:153:16:18

press on because all of these

honourable members have audit had

3:16:183:16:21

their say. We know that there are

unfortunately criminal gangs who

3:16:213:16:27

will shamelessly exploit the

vulnerable for profit and we should

3:16:273:16:30

be careful not in anyway to feed

these activities. We should agree

3:16:303:16:35

that international protection must

be claimed the first safe country

3:16:353:16:40

refugee reaches, this is the fastest

possible route. Current criteria

3:16:403:16:43

aims to strike the balance in aiding

thousands of people each year to be

3:16:433:16:48

reunited with their families in the

UK without putting the most

3:16:483:16:52

vulnerable at risk. I am pleased

that because legal aid has been

3:16:523:16:59

raised, the Lord Chancellor is

undertaking a review of legal aid

3:16:593:17:02

which will include a re-evaluation

of the changes to the scope of legal

3:17:023:17:07

aid that immigration cases and it

will report back next year. I'm

3:17:073:17:10

going to press on because I'm...

I've almost come to the end.

What

3:17:103:17:18

I'm bothered about, you have

colleagues as well, who want to

3:17:183:17:21

speak, you're now on 12 minutes.

What I'm trying to say is we need to

3:17:213:17:25

get other members in as well.

I am

winding up... I will wind... I am

3:17:253:17:35

winding everybody up. I'm going to

cut to my conclusion, then. I wanted

3:17:353:17:42

to say that...

3:17:423:17:53

We don't bully people.

Bullyboys.

I

will go back to the fact that what

3:17:563:18:01

we need to do is focus our effort in

particular in ensuring peace and

3:18:013:18:07

stability in the world. People

actually don't want to leave their

3:18:073:18:12

homes. What they really want is

peace. And what they really want if

3:18:123:18:16

you ask any of them is to stay in

their own country and this is what

3:18:163:18:21

this country, with its humanitarian

aid and its overseas spending budget

3:18:213:18:25

is determined as a first priority to

do and certainly to help with. The

3:18:253:18:32

UK does not back away from our

obligations, pledging £2.46 billion

3:18:323:18:37

of aid to Syria, and this commitment

to spend .7% of our economy on

3:18:373:18:44

international aid. But we must work

with our partners across the world,

3:18:443:18:47

we must work with all our colleagues

across the benches, but our answer

3:18:473:18:51

must strike the balance between our

will to shoulder our responsibility

3:18:513:18:58

and not encouraging a situation

which would cause more so suffering.

3:18:583:19:02

We need to deal with the root causes

of the refugee crisis. Importantly,

3:19:023:19:06

I'm winding up, it is crucial, it is

crucial that all existing

3:19:063:19:12

regulations in our tool box must be

used and working effectively and

3:19:123:19:18

eloquently, which was referred to by

my right honourable friend for

3:19:183:19:22

Colchester, and I fully support his

words. Finally, as I mentioned in my

3:19:223:19:26

opening, this Government does have a

fine record of refugees already but

3:19:263:19:30

it is fully aware there are areas

that might be improved. -- a fine

3:19:303:19:37

record on refugees. Which is why we

are reviewing legal aid and why the

3:19:373:19:42

Government is listening carefully to

non-government NGOs and others in

3:19:423:19:45

their commitment to a wider review

of our approach to family reunion,

3:19:453:19:50

asylum and resettlement policy, and

I know that they will continue to

3:19:503:19:54

build on our approach, which fully

supports our humanitarian

3:19:543:19:57

principles. I welcome the discussion

and the debates that has ensued. I

3:19:573:20:06

trust that notes are being made, Mr

Deputy Speaker, on this side of the

3:20:063:20:10

bench. But I, like my honourable

friend from Colchester, will

3:20:103:20:14

continue to listen to the wider

debate and then I will make up my

3:20:143:20:17

mind.

We won't be able to listen to

anything if you carry on as long!

I

3:20:173:20:24

will try to be brief because the

important thing today is that this

3:20:243:20:27

bill passes, so I will pay tribute

to honourable member, and everyone

3:20:273:20:36

else who's here on Friday. This is

my fourth Friday in 13 years because

3:20:363:20:41

this bill matters. It really

matters, it is a chance and a test.

3:20:413:20:45

It is a test of our support and a

test of our support for the people

3:20:453:20:51

who need it most. It is a test of

our ability to act with compassion

3:20:513:20:55

and common sense. It is not a hard

test. It is not hard because this is

3:20:553:21:00

a modest and tightly defined piece

of common-sense legislation. Let's

3:21:003:21:06

be clear, the changes in this bill

would mean to the refugee children

3:21:063:21:10

who are already here in the United

Kingdom. These are children who have

3:21:103:21:16

experienced unimaginable things but

nevertheless, I want you to try to

3:21:163:21:20

imagine. What set of circumstances

might have to happen to your family,

3:21:203:21:28

your family, that might mean that

fleeing across land and sea, risking

3:21:283:21:34

your family becoming permanently

separated, what horrific set of

3:21:343:21:37

circumstances would make that

danger, that misery and separation

3:21:373:21:41

preferable to staying put, and then

imagine how you would want your

3:21:413:21:48

children, your family, to be treated

at the end of your journey. Imagine

3:21:483:21:54

that, that century, that kindness

that goes with it, and then be very,

3:21:543:21:58

very clear that that must be the

model for how we treat families

3:21:583:22:03

today. Separated children, refugee

children in the United Kingdom have

3:22:033:22:08

audit overcome threats and danger in

their own communities, they happens

3:22:083:22:11

that from their families in their

rush to find somewhere, anywhere

3:22:113:22:14

safe and then have been forced

through a terrifying journey through

3:22:143:22:20

sea and land to Europe, journeys we

know have claimed hundreds of

3:22:203:22:24

children's lives. These children are

here right now, living in our

3:22:243:22:29

communities alongside us, asking us

today to step up and reunite them

3:22:293:22:33

with their families. This bill will

allow them a future with their

3:22:333:22:36

families instead of being separated

from them. It will mean children

3:22:363:22:40

growing up with their parents where

they should be, at their side,

3:22:403:22:43

rather than the thing with the

constant worry about the fate of

3:22:433:22:48

their families, stranded and out of

reach. This bill simply makes that

3:22:483:22:55

possible. Let's not lose sight of

who these refugee children are, the

3:22:553:22:59

biggest groups seeking help in the

UK last year were from Eritrea and

3:22:593:23:04

Sudan, two countries torn apart by

generations of civil war and

3:23:043:23:07

violence. Eritrea, were boys can be

conscripted into the Army aged 16,

3:23:073:23:13

sent off to kill and be killed at

the whim of their Government, or

3:23:133:23:17

they are sent away from their

families as child conscripts to

3:23:173:23:21

serve wherever they are positive,

cut off from when they are barely

3:23:213:23:28

high school age. Saddam, were

hundreds of families are starved of

3:23:283:23:31

food and basic medical supplies. --

Sudan. For many parents and their

3:23:313:23:38

children, this is how life has been,

ordinarily has been for years. These

3:23:383:23:41

are children who have started life

with the worst possible deal. Let's

3:23:413:23:47

today give them a better deal, this

bill won't just assert the right of

3:23:473:23:53

children to sponsor their families

to join them, something which is

3:23:533:23:57

itself long overdue. It also brings

immigration laws into line with the

3:23:573:24:01

real life. The roles need to be as

flexible as families themselves,

3:24:013:24:06

that parents can be reunited with

some butter not love their children,

3:24:063:24:09

that younger siblings can be brought

to safety but older siblings may be

3:24:093:24:15

left behind, it is a shocking

anomaly. At the moment, the rules

3:24:153:24:19

obsess over age. If a child falls at

the wrong side of their 18th

3:24:193:24:24

birthday when their parents become

refugees, the parents have no right

3:24:243:24:27

to bring them here and they will be

left in danger. Can we agree that

3:24:273:24:31

common sense and compassion should

take the place of pedantry? This

3:24:313:24:35

really isn't, I wouldn't give way

because we need to get done, sorry,

3:24:353:24:39

this really isn't a question of age.

It is a question family. It is

3:24:393:24:42

difficult to imagine any thing more

agonising for any parent that they

3:24:423:24:49

can keep some of their children safe

but not all of them. It is ludicrous

3:24:493:24:53

that this should be in the

immigration laws, I welcome the

3:24:533:24:56

commitment in this bill to change

them. But common sense is missing

3:24:563:25:00

when it comes to the Home Office

stopping any specialist legal

3:25:003:25:03

supporters the right honourable

member was trying to make the point

3:25:033:25:05

just earlier, as if uniting refugee

families is simple and

3:25:053:25:12

straightforward, I disagree. Of

course those families need that

3:25:123:25:15

specialist support. Hopefully, this

bill and a discussion that comes

3:25:153:25:19

with it will help us take another

look at the legal aid available one

3:25:193:25:23

refugees are trying to reunite

across continents and war zones.

3:25:233:25:25

Immensely briefly.

Immensely

briefly, just to say, do you agree

3:25:253:25:32

that we should be thanking the

lawyers across the country who do

3:25:323:25:35

this work pro bono to help those who

need it the most?

I agree with

3:25:353:25:41

everything that was just sad. It is

not simply a process that involves

3:25:413:25:45

DNA testing and legal wrangling over

birth certificates. Many have seen

3:25:453:25:52

in their own constituencies just how

contributed this can become, leaving

3:25:523:25:56

the most vulnerable in our society

to navigate the system on their own

3:25:563:25:59

is deeply unfair. There is one less

reason to commend this bill. During

3:25:593:26:04

the writing by refugee families just

happens also to mean that we do the

3:26:043:26:08

right thing by our country'sfuture.

After the horrors these children

3:26:083:26:12

haven't heard and escaped from, I

want us to think not just of the

3:26:123:26:15

pain of the past but the potential

of what could come next. These are

3:26:153:26:22

not just the product of their

horrific experiences, they will also

3:26:223:26:26

become part of our shared future. It

is an ever body's interests that

3:26:263:26:30

refugee children head off into their

adult lives confident and integrated

3:26:303:26:36

into British society, committed to

making the most of the opportunities

3:26:363:26:39

ahead. We all know that the kindest

and most effective way of making the

3:26:393:26:43

best of their futures is to reunite

them with their families. So let's

3:26:433:26:49

pass this test, dismissed the

excuses and do what is right,

3:26:493:26:52

support this bill.

3:26:523:26:58

It is a great pleasure to follow the

Right Honourable gentleman and to

3:26:583:27:05

follow so many other speeches. I

congratulate the sponsor of this

3:27:053:27:11

Bill. I understand the difficulties

of piloting Private members Bill

3:27:113:27:22

through this chamber, having myself

got through to the third reading on

3:27:223:27:26

the presentation Bill before it fell

and failed at that particular

3:27:263:27:29

hurdle. At the outset, I will say

it's not my intention to do is team

3:27:293:27:35

this chamber for a long time.

Despite the disappointing cries from

3:27:353:27:39

the benches opposite, that are still

12 points I want to make. I

3:27:393:27:43

congratulate him on bringing this

serious subject to the floor of the

3:27:433:27:49

house, particularly in this week,

which has seen the crisis in Syria,

3:27:493:27:55

the war in Syria, enter its eighth

year. We heard from the Ambassador

3:27:553:28:03

to Jordan, a country that has seen

many of the refugees fleeing to

3:28:033:28:08

security there and he updated us

that there are 740,000 Syrian

3:28:083:28:14

refugees in the camps in Jordan,

100,000 others. He also talked about

3:28:143:28:23

the assessments being made by the

UNHCR...

Members on this side of the

3:28:233:28:33

house quite rightly raised a very

important point. What happens if an

3:28:333:28:40

18-year-old in a refugee camp in

Jordan were to decide to come here

3:28:403:28:44

in order to take advantage of this

act and therefore get his family

3:28:443:28:50

over, using this act? Would he agree

with me that that scenario simply

3:28:503:28:54

could not happen, because somebody

from Syria would be in Jordan as a

3:28:543:29:00

place of refuge. If they were then

to enter into this country

3:29:003:29:03

illegally, they could not be deemed

to be a refugee and therefore, they

3:29:033:29:07

could not use this act, if the Bill

is successful. Would he agree with

3:29:073:29:16

me that that dispels the concern

that other members have raised about

3:29:163:29:22

the exploitation, if you like, of

this excellence legislation.

I am

3:29:223:29:28

grateful for that intervention. I

heard you mention that point

3:29:283:29:30

earlier, but I don't think anyone

else in the chamber has raised that

3:29:303:29:33

issue as yet. I'd like to hear from

the minister whether her

3:29:333:29:36

interpretation is right. She's right

that on the face of the billboard is

3:29:363:29:41

the mention of the word refugee,

therefore she has raised a perfectly

3:29:413:29:47

sensible point and I look forward to

the Minister & Matt in detail. I

3:29:473:29:52

will turn to my concerns about the

pull factor, because despite cries

3:29:523:29:55

from the benches opposite, these are

legitimate points to raise. Although

3:29:553:30:00

she pulls a slight face at that

remark, I think there are legitimate

3:30:003:30:06

concerns to raise. I will address

them was briefly...

He has to be

3:30:063:30:17

clear. The idea of the pull factor

cannot happen, because a person has

3:30:173:30:21

to be deemed a refugee. All we are

doing is giving underage teens in

3:30:213:30:24

the same rate as adults would have.

If the pull factor is anywhere, it

3:30:243:30:29

exists with adults, you can now come

legally. The pull factor does not

3:30:293:30:33

exist and the honourable gentleman

has to move away from that. You have

3:30:333:30:37

to be a refugee. You can only do it

if you are refugee and that is

3:30:373:30:44

something the government will be

dancing.

I understand. It's similar

3:30:443:30:47

to the point she made. I still want

to address it, because I still think

3:30:473:30:53

it is a real concern that people

have raised.

I will certainly give

3:30:533:30:58

way. As he read the House of Lords

EU select committee report from

3:30:583:31:05

2016? They found absolutely no

evidence to support the argument of

3:31:053:31:09

the pull factor, and on the

contrary, they said that if there

3:31:093:31:13

was a pull factor, such as he has

described, you would expect to see

3:31:133:31:17

evidence of it happening in other

member states of the EU who

3:31:173:31:22

participate in the family

reunification director. That is no

3:31:223:31:25

such evidence. Does he agree that we

should proceed on the basal evidence

3:31:253:31:28

here and not myth?

Firstly, no, I

have not seen the report, but I did

3:31:283:31:37

hear her intervention. I think it is

worth me answering if she can listen

3:31:373:31:40

to the answer.

Point of order.

Can I

move that the question been output?

3:31:403:31:52

Does the Minister wish to commend?

In which case, I think we will come

3:31:523:31:56

to the question. We may as well

clear of the lobbies!

3:31:563:32:17

The question is, as many of that

opinion saying aye, as many who say

3:33:003:33:08

no.

3:33:083:33:18

The

3:40:163:40:19

wok or donors!

3:40:233:40:33

Lock the doors!

3:40:353:40:45

Order. Order.

149, 42.

3:46:193:46:28

Thank you.

To the right, 129, the

noes to the left, 42, the ayes have

3:46:313:46:41

it, the ayes have it. The bill will

now be read a second time is the

3:46:413:46:54

question, I think the ayes have it,

the ayes have it.

APPLAUSE

3:46:543:47:14

All right, I think we want to get

onto the next bill as well, so we

3:47:143:47:18

need to move on.

I think Mr McDonald

will be on to me if we don't make

3:47:183:47:22

some progress, we call on the Clark.

-- clerk. We call Stuart McDonald to

3:47:223:47:35

make the second reading.

Thank you

very much, Mr Deputy Speaker, I beg

3:47:353:47:40

to move that the unpaid trials work

Bill Prohibition Bill be now read a

3:47:403:47:45

second time and in moving, in moving

the bill this afternoon, I would

3:47:453:47:48

like to begin by thanking all of

those honourable members who

3:47:483:47:54

sponsored the bill at its outset, I

would like to thank the many

3:47:543:47:58

organisations including people like

the Scottish trade union Congress,

3:47:583:48:01

the better than zero campaign,

Thompsons solicitors, Jolie welcome

3:48:013:48:08

QC and various others for taking the

time to take the drafting of the

3:48:083:48:16

bill, but there is one person above

all I would like to thank. -- Jolyon

3:48:163:48:19

Maugham. That is my magnificent

researcher, Keith Thompson, who has

3:48:193:48:23

pulled a shift and a half, a page

shift and a half(!)

LAUGHTER

3:48:233:48:27

...

To bring this to the floor. To

this afternoon. Right honourable and

3:48:273:48:34

honourable members will know that

the bill does enjoy support from all

3:48:343:48:39

of the parties in this house, with

the exception of the Democratic

3:48:393:48:43

Unionist Party but I don't wish to

indulge on that lowly fact at the

3:48:433:48:47

moment.

Surprise, surprise.

Because

unfortunately, my overdraft did not

3:48:473:48:53

extend to that. It will also be

known to honourable and right

3:48:533:48:59

honourable members that yesterday,

the polling company YouGov published

3:48:593:49:02

a poll showing that 65% of the

public believe that unpaid trial

3:49:023:49:08

work is unfair. A clear majority of

people across the United Kingdom

3:49:083:49:14

looking for this Parliament to do

what I believe it has to do in

3:49:143:49:22

correcting law as it currently

stands. That is the opportunity that

3:49:223:49:25

sits before us here, did the

honourable gentleman wish... It is

3:49:253:49:29

unlike him, but there we go. I will

certainly give way.

I'm grateful to

3:49:293:49:35

the honourable member for giving

South, and congratulate him on

3:49:353:49:38

bringing this bill, time is short,

we know how Friday shenanigans can

3:49:383:49:42

sometimes work, given the high level

of public support, and cross-party

3:49:423:49:46

support, does he not agree with me

that it is incumbent on the

3:49:463:49:50

government and members opposite to

make sure this bill passes second

3:49:503:49:53

reading before we adjourn?

The

honourable member knows, and

3:49:533:49:58

honourable members opposite will

know that I wish to be a

3:49:583:50:00

constructive voice in this

Parliament, it is a good bill. It

3:50:003:50:06

may not be a perfect bill, which is

why it should go to the committee

3:50:063:50:11

stage, so that we can make good law,

if we are not here as legislators to

3:50:113:50:17

make good law, then what is the

point of this Parliament? While my

3:50:173:50:21

political career rests on that

question... Whilst I am here, I

3:50:213:50:25

would like to make some use of the

time. I agree with what he has to

3:50:253:50:33

say. With support across the

benches, Mr Deputy Speaker, with

3:50:333:50:37

great support enjoyed amongst the

public, I do think that we should

3:50:373:50:40

give the bill a second reading. I

wish to aggregate for members while

3:50:403:50:45

I believe and why so many others

believe that the law does need to be

3:50:453:50:49

changed. It is, as I understand it,

the government's view that unpaid

3:50:493:50:55

trial shifts are currently already

unlawful. It is the government's

3:50:553:50:59

view that these practices are

covered by the national minimum wage

3:50:593:51:05

act. 20 years old this year, and

undoubtably, a fine piece of

3:51:053:51:09

legislation to. But I do believe

that it is insufficient when it

3:51:093:51:14

comes to dealing with the issue of

an unpaid trial shift. --

3:51:143:51:18

legislation too. I don't think it

meant to be inefficient in that

3:51:183:51:22

respect but we have the opportunity

here to put it right, in 20 years of

3:51:223:51:26

the national minimum wage act, there

hasn't been a single tribunal, there

3:51:263:51:29

hasn't been a single fine issued,

there hasn't been a single

3:51:293:51:36

prosecution or naming and shaming or

ticking off of anyone for the use of

3:51:363:51:40

an unpaid trial shifts. Which only

feeds into the fact that the

3:51:403:51:45

government, the courts, the trade

unions, don't hold any statistics on

3:51:453:51:50

unpaid trial shifts, but it is

something that we all know is taking

3:51:503:52:00

place.

I happily give way. Thank you

Mr Deputy Speaker. I think I am in

3:52:003:52:03

support of this bill... But can I

just clarify, with the honourable

3:52:033:52:05

gentleman, that this doesn't

apply... This is unpaid trial for a

3:52:053:52:10

job bill, it is not unpaid when you

have, say, a sixth former coming

3:52:103:52:18

into your office for a while? If we

can just have that clarified so

3:52:183:52:22

everyone is clear.

I think every six

former should have the chance to

3:52:223:52:26

work in the honourable gentleman's

office as work experience and I

3:52:263:52:31

would not dream of seeking to rob

any of them in wishing to do that!

3:52:313:52:35

LAUGHTER

On a serious note, this is not about

3:52:353:52:39

work experience, work experience is

a good thing, volunteering is a good

3:52:393:52:41

thing, this does not concern itself

with volunteering, and it is not

3:52:413:52:47

concern itself with internships,

because I believe that would require

3:52:473:52:50

its own piece of legislation. I want

to come back to internships because

3:52:503:52:54

I know the Minister has announced

some government initiative on that

3:52:543:52:58

earlier.

3:52:583:53:08

How do we sort out the situation

where someone comes in as work

3:53:113:53:16

experience, and subsequently is

employed? I know this can happen, it

3:53:163:53:18

is a good thing, that someone comes

into an office environment, they

3:53:183:53:23

enjoy the role, weeks, days, months

later, they find themselves

3:53:233:53:27

employed, how do we make sure we do

not penalising lawyers? I don't know

3:53:273:53:32

if the honourable gentleman has read

the bill, I know him to be diligent

3:53:323:53:36

and by sure that he has, but I will

come to where we ensure there is not

3:53:363:53:39

cross hairs.

That said, I want to

make progress highlighting where

3:53:393:53:44

this happens quite a lot, I happily

give way briefly.

Would you agree

3:53:443:53:48

with me that there is a small

number, perhaps only a small number

3:53:483:53:51

of companies, where one try list is

replaced with another and so on and

3:53:513:53:56

it is just a way of free employment.

-- one trialist.

Anticipate where I

3:53:563:54:04

am going, but going to the previous

point, in hospitality and retail

3:54:043:54:08

where this is known to be a

widespread practice, not as juicy by

3:54:083:54:11

any means but it happens there

rather a lot, there is a difference

3:54:113:54:14

in what people do whereby if they

apply for a job, and let's say for

3:54:143:54:19

example it is to be a barrister in a

copy shop, a cocktail make in a

3:54:193:54:24

hotel bar, if they can demonstrate

that they can do the things they

3:54:243:54:26

have said they can do that is fine.

-- barista. The difference is,

3:54:263:54:30

between that and a trial shifts,

where I am asked, as the applicant,

3:54:303:54:35

to work alongside someone on a

shift, doing the same job they are

3:54:353:54:39

doing, but not being paid for it

whilst they are being paid for it.

3:54:393:54:43

It is that reason that I think the

current law is efficient in dealing

3:54:433:54:47

with that, the government says. But

as the honourable gentleman from the

3:54:473:54:51

Labour bench mentioned, what can too

often happen, Mr Deputy Speaker, is

3:54:513:54:57

that a company advertises an unpaid

trial ship, in some cases that can

3:54:573:55:01

be two or three years, in some of

the more extreme cases, in fact the

3:55:013:55:05

case that first brought this to my

attention, it was 40 hours,

3:55:053:55:09

yesterday, the BBC interviewed

someone who worked four weeks of

3:55:093:55:14

unpaid trial work, and here is the

deeply cynical element, in a lot of

3:55:143:55:18

cases, there is not actually a job

to give the person, this is about

3:55:183:55:23

covering sickness, staff shortages,

busy periods over Christmas, wedding

3:55:233:55:27

seasons in hotels, that is worth the

law is inefficient in preventing

3:55:273:55:31

that exploitation. I will give way

to my honourable friend.

I'd usually

3:55:313:55:36

commend my honourable friend for

bringing forward this proposal and

3:55:363:55:38

for the way he is proposing it,

which is very strong and erudite,

3:55:383:55:42

isn't the greatest tragedy here, the

people that he talks about, most

3:55:423:55:47

often, the people exploited are

those with learning disabilities,

3:55:473:55:49

who are desperate, desperate for

work and see these as their only

3:55:493:55:54

opportunity, and that is one of the

key reasons why this bill must pass.

3:55:543:55:58

He makes a very good point, too

often, if you will allow me to

3:55:583:56:02

answer that point, too often, Mr

Deputy Speaker, that is what

3:56:023:56:07

happens, and the people who fall

victim to this are those who either

3:56:073:56:09

do not know their rights and cannot

stand up for them, or those who are

3:56:093:56:13

unwilling to challenge employers, on

their rights, because they are in

3:56:133:56:18

fear of losing their job. This

practice it's the lowest paid, and

3:56:183:56:22

the lowest skilled in the economy,

and this is a bill to protect the

3:56:223:56:27

lowest skilled and the lowest paid.

-- this practice hits.

3:56:273:56:32

Can I congratulate him along with

most of the members of this house on

3:56:373:56:40

bringing this bill before us today

but we just had National

3:56:403:56:44

apprenticeship week and what occurs

to me is that not one of the least

3:56:443:56:47

of the evils of the present

situation with the serial offenders

3:56:473:56:51

he is describing is that it first of

all prevents them from doing

3:56:513:56:57

something decent like offering an

apprenticeship but secondly also

3:56:573:57:00

hides them from a group of people

who would then be exposed as not

3:57:003:57:07

taking that particular point for the

first place.

He makes a very

3:57:073:57:11

important point and we are better

informed it. Of course I think there

3:57:113:57:15

cannot be a member of the house that

deadly speaker that did not

3:57:153:57:19

celebrate national friendship week

so I think on the back of that if

3:57:193:57:23

nothing else this certainly merits

Parliament's attention.

I thank my

3:57:233:57:31

honourable friend forgiving way and

to congratulate him for bringing

3:57:313:57:33

forward this bill, can you confirm

for us, my honourable friend

3:57:333:57:38

organised a drop in this week and we

heard from Maxine Clifford, a

3:57:383:57:45

Glaswegian who was regularly put on

unpaid trial shifts of at least ten

3:57:453:57:50

hours a day and that is one of the

principal reasons we need this bill

3:57:503:57:53

to go through.

I absolutely agree,

surely to goodness there is not

3:57:533:57:59

anyone on a bench in this house who

thinks that kind of practice can be

3:57:593:58:03

justified and I see some nodding the

honourable gentleman for and thank

3:58:033:58:11

you for his support of the bill as

well, a very early supporter of the

3:58:113:58:16

bill actually. I would argue as I am

sure he would as a man with pine

3:58:163:58:24

tree during -- fine trade union

traditions that employment law is

3:58:243:58:33

heavily stacked in favour of the

employer and provides them with

3:58:333:58:37

sufficient instruments to try people

out as it wears, why can people not

3:58:373:58:41

be put on a probation period as is

normal in most mainstream jobs? Why

3:58:413:58:46

for example, the Conservative led

coalition in the previous two

3:58:463:58:52

parlance ago now changed employment

law so people can effectively be

3:58:523:58:58

dismissed in the first two years of

employment. That's something I

3:58:583:59:02

disagree with, I would not have

voted for that at the time but with

3:59:023:59:05

those kind of instruments at their

disposal there can be no need to try

3:59:053:59:09

people out of ten hours, 40 hours or

four weeks as I mentioned earlier. I

3:59:093:59:13

give way.

I thank the honourable

member forgiving way, would he not

3:59:133:59:22

agree with me that working

conditions are deteriorating, they

3:59:223:59:24

are getting worse, I know sons and

daughters and many people have

3:59:243:59:29

suffered from unpaid work and that

is why I strongly support trade

3:59:293:59:33

union movement and I suggest anyone

in the trade union movement to stop

3:59:333:59:38

the abuse of workers and of the Tory

Prime Minister put her money where

3:59:383:59:42

her mouth is I will support these

workers and let's stop this.

There

3:59:423:59:46

is an important message there that I

know VS TUC would wish me to make

3:59:463:59:55

and that is to workers affected by

this and those who are not should

3:59:553:59:58

join trade unions. The predator

problem comes Madam Deputy Speaker

3:59:584:00:03

that where they are in that kind of

precarious work it's difficult to

4:00:034:00:06

sustain financially a trade union

membership. So this bill will

4:00:064:00:12

actually help give some protection

and security to people who badly

4:00:124:00:14

need it. I will give way.

Will he

recognise Unite community section

4:00:144:00:22

which is specifically for people who

are out of work and has low rates

4:00:224:00:27

and will protect workers saw there

are options for people on low or no

4:00:274:00:34

wage.

I absolutely commend that. I

call when I first floated the idea

4:00:344:00:38

of the Bill Madam Deputy Speaker,

receiving an e-mail from Unite

4:00:384:00:43

saying we needed to talk and I

realised it would cause a shiver up

4:00:434:00:46

the spines of honourable members in

the Labour Party. It cost one up

4:00:464:00:50

mine as well. We had a very fruitful

conversation and they have been

4:00:504:00:56

inside is supportive and particular

Brian Simpson who is one of the

4:00:564:01:00

Scottish organisers has been

immensely supportive. They better

4:01:004:01:03

than zero movement who have collated

lots of information, more than I

4:01:034:01:09

have an precarious work and unpaid

trial shifts. And taking direct

4:01:094:01:15

action against rogue employers who

get up to ulcers of things like

4:01:154:01:18

stealing tips from part-time staff,

and all the rest of it. So there is

4:01:184:01:22

a lot to sort out. This bill does

not deal with all of it but I think

4:01:224:01:26

we can all agree I hope that the

deals of an important member.

Does

4:01:264:01:31

he agree that this is abused by some

of the biggest and best-known

4:01:314:01:37

employers in the country often

because they put unrealistic

4:01:374:01:41

productivity targets on staff,

forcing them to use any method they

4:01:414:01:43

can to get home before midnight?

This may be the only time I have

4:01:434:01:48

looked forward to using my

parliamentary privilege Madam did

4:01:484:01:52

speaker but I'm going to name some

companies who have come up when I've

4:01:524:01:55

been having this conversation. The

first which came up was a bubble

4:01:554:01:59

tea. I see confusion because I do

not know what that is either but I

4:01:594:02:06

will not be trying it because the

company based in Glasgow that has

4:02:064:02:12

franchises across the UK and asked a

constituent to work 40 hours for no

4:02:124:02:17

money whatsoever. And not only did

they not get the job and I am sure

4:02:174:02:23

she made a fine -fest at the trial

period, they actually just ignored

4:02:234:02:28

the constituent and that happens too

often. People apply for jobs and go

4:02:284:02:33

through trials and the rest of it

and they actually don't get told yes

4:02:334:02:37

or no they just get left hanging in

the air, what a cynical and gross

4:02:374:02:42

way to treat applicants in this day

and age.

I quite agree with the

4:02:424:02:46

honourable gentleman that the

example he gave is a shocking

4:02:464:02:50

example of abuse. Did the honourable

gentleman report the matter to HMRC

4:02:504:02:56

for investigation and if he did can

update the house on the outcome?

I

4:02:564:03:00

sent a letter to the former HMRC

Minister Jean Ellison who I think is

4:03:004:03:05

employed as a special adviser.

Forgive me and they have got that

4:03:054:03:08

wrong Madam daddy speaker but she

did deal with it for me, I had a

4:03:084:03:14

conversation with her on the few

occasions we were in the same lobby

4:03:144:03:17

at the time and she assured me it

was passed on to the right people.

4:03:174:03:22

Part of the issue with doing it

through a minister rather than

4:03:224:03:25

direct to the unit is you don't get

told what the outcome is. But what I

4:03:254:03:30

would say to the honourable members

is where they come across this, if

4:03:304:03:33

there is any question the definition

of the national minimum wage has

4:03:334:03:37

been abused, report people to HMRC.

I did a Facebook live with House of

4:03:374:03:46

Commons digital officials earlier

this week where I was getting lots

4:03:464:03:48

of examples from members of the

public where they have gone through

4:03:484:03:53

these things and I have encouraged

people to do this because the

4:03:534:03:57

national minimum wage act is what

people rely on and the low paid rely

4:03:574:04:02

on it more than any other group in

society.

I am grateful to the

4:04:024:04:08

honourable gentleman for giving way,

if in this case that he mentioned in

4:04:084:04:12

Glasgow, if he was able to take it

to HMRC and it was resolved, what is

4:04:124:04:18

the need or necessity for new

legislation?

Forgive me, I did not

4:04:184:04:23

say it was resolved, I said I don't

know what the outcome is because the

4:04:234:04:26

minister does not know the outcome.

What I can say is that the company

4:04:264:04:31

after blocking members of Parliament

on social media who highlighted this

4:04:314:04:34

and then unblocking them later that

they sent me a letter to say in

4:04:344:04:39

actual fact this was training and

training is covered by the national

4:04:394:04:43

minimum wage act so they were still

in breach of the law if were the

4:04:434:04:46

case. But they did tell me they

changed their practice as a result.

4:04:464:04:50

I have not found any positions to

come up that I can perhaps under a

4:04:504:04:57

cloak and dagger have applied for

myself to work out what happens but

4:04:574:05:01

I know for example that algae were

opening a big new store in the

4:05:014:05:04

north-east of Scotland advertising

150 at unpaid trial shifts I

4:05:044:05:12

understand -- and 2-macro opening a

store. This cannot

4:05:124:05:16

on the points raised about training,

I know from personal experience my

4:05:224:05:28

son was employed, undertook unpaid

training with the company employed

4:05:284:05:36

by charities, it was to be a week of

unpaid training with a view to the

4:05:364:05:40

job at the end of it, it is terrible

that charities who are supposed to

4:05:404:05:45

be there to raise money for the

greater good are exploiting people

4:05:454:05:49

in this way.

I would agree, I did

not even know he had a son called

4:05:494:05:54

Dylan until he mentioned at this

afternoon but I think that is right.

4:05:544:05:58

INAUDIBLE

LAUGHTER

4:05:584:06:00

I am sure that is untrue. I

mentioned retail and hospitality

4:06:004:06:08

because in my consultation those

were the industries which were

4:06:084:06:11

coming through, amazingly the

British Retail Consortium refused to

4:06:114:06:14

discuss it with me because they

thought it wasn't a problem which is

4:06:144:06:18

news to a young man from North

Lanarkshire who was accused by the

4:06:184:06:22

retail store B&M Bargains. I used to

enjoy going there, it's a kind of

4:06:224:06:36

shop you buy things you don't need

but I was horrified to learn they

4:06:364:06:40

had a young man with autism in the

hope of securing work stacking

4:06:404:06:44

shelves for three or four days only

to then dismiss him at the end of

4:06:444:06:48

it, you are not required any more,

off you go, no pay, nothing in

4:06:484:06:53

response. I give way.

I am grateful

and I commend the honourable

4:06:534:06:58

gentleman on this bill, what

interests me is the demoralising

4:06:584:07:01

effect that must have, on that

individual. It's this devil may care

4:07:014:07:08

attitude toward respecting other

people that really gets under my

4:07:084:07:12

skin. This bill is about fairness

and I commend him for bringing it

4:07:124:07:16

forward.

I'm grateful to the

honourable gentleman, he's been a

4:07:164:07:20

great supporter of the bill since it

started and has had good input into

4:07:204:07:25

it. It's a horrifying and cynical

practice. Can you imagine that was

4:07:254:07:29

your first introduction to the world

of work, what would that make you

4:07:294:07:32

feel about trying to secure work for

yourself in future? I think we are

4:07:324:07:40

all united, it's a good thing when

people want to go out and secure

4:07:404:07:43

work of some kind but I think the

case I just mentioned, the

4:07:434:07:45

constituent's MP wishes to

intervene.

I thank the honourable

4:07:454:07:50

member for giving way again, the

worst part of that story was the

4:07:504:07:54

fact that actually my constituent

was only wrote to be in that work

4:07:544:07:58

the following week which gave him

the impression he in fact secured a

4:07:584:08:03

job. He was told on the last day

possible that he had not applied

4:08:034:08:08

enough effort. Which is clearly,

blatantly wrong and that type of

4:08:084:08:14

behaviour is utterly shameful.

I did

not know that additional detail, I

4:08:144:08:21

think it's shameful and right to be

called out and it's the last time I

4:08:214:08:24

will be setting foot in B&M Bargains

which is a great shame because I

4:08:244:08:28

pass it on my way to my constituency

office every day. I mean no malice

4:08:284:08:32

to the workers of that company, but

instead the bosses that allow that

4:08:324:08:37

kind of practice to go on. I will

give way.

I'm grateful and fully

4:08:374:08:42

support this bill as I have done

from the outset. While the

4:08:424:08:46

honourable member agree with me that

as well as the fact that it is

4:08:464:08:50

unpaid there is great danger with

regard to health and safety,

4:08:504:08:54

training, other staff members,

members of the public and we are

4:08:544:09:01

watching unscrupulous employers

putting everybody in danger and also

4:09:014:09:04

damaging the reputation of the good

employers who don't engage in mass.

4:09:044:09:08

He makes a very good point and a I'm

supporter he's been as well, a

4:09:084:09:13

sponsor no less of the bill. He's

right, not everyone does this and

4:09:134:09:17

those who do do it give good

employers are bad name which is why

4:09:174:09:21

I make the point to the honourable

gentleman for Stirling that the

4:09:214:09:24

damage that will do to people's

minds if that's the experience of

4:09:244:09:31

the world of work. I wish to make

some progress to bring this to a

4:09:314:09:35

close with a couple of points. I

want to square up what the bill does

4:09:354:09:37

and why it does it. The bill is

essentially split into two main

4:09:374:09:40

parts. The first is an amendment to

the national minimum wage act which

4:09:404:09:43

makes it clear that were somewhere

someone takes part in a trial shifts

4:09:434:09:47

and it defines what a trial shift is

they are to be paid at least the

4:09:474:09:51

national minimum wage and the Bella

prize across United Kingdom. -- the

4:09:514:09:56

bill applies. There are other

safeguards are put in there based on

4:09:564:09:59

the feedback on members of the

public as I have been discussing

4:09:594:10:03

this. The first one is that a member

of the public who does get offered a

4:10:034:10:08

trial shift is to be made clear to

them in writing how long that trial

4:10:084:10:13

period will last so that people

cannot be strung along. It will also

4:10:134:10:17

make clear how many jobs actually

exist which should put an end to the

4:10:174:10:22

practice of offering ghost shifts

were no job actually exist. It gives

4:10:224:10:26

the person and the employer the

agreement that they are to receive

4:10:264:10:32

proper feedback, too often, in fact

I believe it was, I will not

4:10:324:10:37

identify the person but it was the

daughter of a prominent Scottish

4:10:374:10:40

Labour politician went on a trial

shift in our bar, worked I think

4:10:404:10:46

three or four shifts and at the end

of it they said to her we are not

4:10:464:10:50

taking you on you don't have enough

experience which they already knew

4:10:504:10:53

from looking at her CV in the

application stage so that is the

4:10:534:10:57

purpose of that part of the bill. I

think what we have to do, I will

4:10:574:11:03

give way in just one moment, I think

what we have to do is try to empower

4:11:034:11:07

applicants. I think people feel

helpless doing these things, this is

4:11:074:11:12

not about ending trials or the

ability of an employer to test some

4:11:124:11:16

on, it's just ending the ability to

take them for a ride and pay them

4:11:164:11:19

nothing but I will give way.

I thank

the honourable member for bringing

4:11:194:11:24

this important bill, it's an issue I

was not really aware of until my

4:11:244:11:28

eldest son was a teenager a couple

of his friends worked unpaid shifts,

4:11:284:11:32

several shifts in a restaurant and

it made me realise and with the

4:11:324:11:40

honourable member are not agree that

the hospitality industry which is an

4:11:404:11:44

industry that many of us partake in

and spend money and, is particularly

4:11:444:11:49

rife and perhaps if we were more

aware of this and the need to plug

4:11:494:11:54

the hole in existing employment

legislation then we would raise

4:11:544:11:58

this, we will support this bill and

should not all member support this

4:11:584:12:04

bill as it comes forward.

4:12:044:12:09

So funny when she says that, I put a

name on it as an unpaid trial ship,

4:12:094:12:14

most people would say what is that,

when you explain it, it they realise

4:12:144:12:18

their own kids have done it,

neighbours kids have done it, Nice

4:12:184:12:21

is and nephews, everyone knows.

Everyone knows someone who has done

4:12:214:12:25

it. -- trial shift. I had a very

constructive meeting with the

4:12:254:12:30

British hospitality Association,

they support measures like this

4:12:304:12:32

because they want their industry to

be seen as an attractive place to

4:12:324:12:35

work and build a career, so anything

this Parliament can do to help

4:12:354:12:40

hospitality on other sectors, can

only be a good thing. I know he has

4:12:404:12:44

an interest in hospitality.

I thank

the honourable member for giving

4:12:444:12:48

way, making some really important

points, I am glad he recognises the

4:12:484:12:53

hospitality and leisure industry,

which employs 3 million in the UK,

4:12:534:12:55

has good and bad practices but

generally good, that is important to

4:12:554:13:00

recognise, but we have a clear

message from the house, that we have

4:13:004:13:05

existing legislation, can we please

make sure it works properly,

4:13:054:13:07

depending upon how the bill goes,

that is one of the gaps, and, this

4:13:074:13:11

great Tory philosophy of make work

pay, can anybody who makes anybody

4:13:114:13:17

work please make sure they pay them!

I never thought that I would bring

4:13:174:13:22

forward a bill which encompasses

Tory philosophy(!) Akron the this is

4:13:224:13:27

a bill that makes work pay, I hope

that he will do everything he can in

4:13:274:13:33

the short term -- time left to make

sure work pays. --

LAUGHTER

4:13:334:13:41

.

I want to bring this to a close to

make sure that others can say what

4:13:414:13:46

they wish. I have had conversations

with the minister, I have seen

4:13:464:13:51

public statements, but the legal

advice I have heard suggest this is

4:13:514:13:54

not a problem, the trade unions

don't believe it does, and I shared

4:13:544:13:59

all of that advice with the

government, after they asked for it,

4:13:594:14:02

no issue in doing so. It doesn't

seem to have changed their mind, if

4:14:024:14:08

the law worked, there would be one,

there would have been one tribunal,

4:14:084:14:12

one tribunal in 20 years of the law

the Minister says covers this, but

4:14:124:14:15

there hasn't been, that in itself

tells me, the law does not work, but

4:14:154:14:20

if it does work, and I know the

Minister believes this law covers

4:14:204:14:23

trial shift and unpaid internships,

and the Minister said to me, he

4:14:234:14:28

said, we have no wish to derail your

bill, but we think that the law

4:14:284:14:33

covers it already. Well, let's split

the proposition, those two things

4:14:334:14:37

cannot sit comfortable it. If the

law as it stands actually covers,

4:14:374:14:40

and if the Minister will listen, I

can educate them, if the Minister as

4:14:404:14:44

it stands -- if the law as it stands

covers this, there is a problem for

4:14:444:14:50

the Minister because I have found on

the W four MP website, and unpaid

4:14:504:14:55

internship from 2012, in his office,

for three to six months. So, if it

4:14:554:15:01

is the case, I will allow him to

respond, he doesn't need to get too

4:15:014:15:05

excited, I will allow him to

respond, if it is the case that law

4:15:054:15:09

as it stands shifts and unpaid

internships, either he has two

4:15:094:15:16

referrer himself to HM IRC, or I am

afraid that I will have to do it for

4:15:164:15:20

him.

I would be very interested to

see that, I have never ever had an

4:15:204:15:25

unpaid internship in my office.

Madame Deputy Speaker, I can assure

4:15:254:15:31

the honourable gentleman, I will

send it to him, there is an unpaid

4:15:314:15:33

in ten ship advert on the W four MP

website, I checked it before the

4:15:334:15:38

debate started, I'm happy to let the

Minister see it, I think he is

4:15:384:15:42

looking it up as I mentioned the

point... I assure you, it is there.

4:15:424:15:48

It is something that a lot of

parties in this house take part in.

4:15:484:15:52

I think internships are enormously

valuable but if the Minister is so

4:15:524:15:56

convinced that the law as it stands

is functional, then it does raise

4:15:564:16:00

questions for what he and others

have done. I congratulate him on his

4:16:004:16:08

hard work on this bill, as the

youngest number of this place, of

4:16:084:16:11

the Labour Party, it would be remiss

of me not to mention the advantages

4:16:114:16:16

that young people find in unpaid

shifts, they are massively affected

4:16:164:16:21

by this, they may not have the

mechanisms that older workers may

4:16:214:16:25

have, and I join him in calling all

young people to join a trade union.

4:16:254:16:32

I should mention, as I know she

would know, the Scottish youth

4:16:324:16:37

Parliament have endorsed this bill,

and a fine job they have made of it.

4:16:374:16:43

Very grateful to my honourable

friend for giving way, can I ask him

4:16:434:16:46

to place a copy of the evidence in

the library for all members. So that

4:16:464:16:50

we can familiarise ourselves, that

is an interesting point.

I rather

4:16:504:16:57

expect it will find its way on

Twitter soon enough but I'm happy to

4:16:574:17:00

place that evidence in the library

as well. In closing, I don't wish to

4:17:004:17:07

cheat the Minister out of his time,

this is a bill which makes work pay,

4:17:074:17:11

which empowers people that is the

honourable lady from Midlothian says

4:17:114:17:15

need our empowerment, this is

supposed to be a parliament of

4:17:154:17:19

legislators that makes good law, we

have an opportunity here today I

4:17:194:17:23

believe to make good law. Let us not

filibuster kill it, let us not in

4:17:234:17:29

sure that it somehow cannot pass, I

realise that is looking tough but

4:17:294:17:35

stranger miracles have happened, so

I ask members to get behind the

4:17:354:17:38

Bill, let's get it to committee,

let's make good law and protect

4:17:384:17:42

people who need protecting.

The

question is that the bill now be

4:17:424:17:48

read a second time.

It is a great

pleasure to follow that very

4:17:484:17:55

thoughtful, very well researched and

well considered speech, given by the

4:17:554:18:05

honourable member for Glasgow South

and I found myself in agreement with

4:18:054:18:09

very large parts of it. That is in

part because I am a very passionate

4:18:094:18:15

believer in the national minimum

wage, one of the first things I did

4:18:154:18:18

after getting elected, first

elected, in 2015, was I went and

4:18:184:18:24

sort out the then Chancellor of the

Exchequer, George Osborne, who I

4:18:244:18:29

understand is more than modestly

occupied these days. And rest on him

4:18:294:18:35

what I thought was a very strong

case for a big increase in the

4:18:354:18:40

minimum wage. I was delighted that a

short time later, the government

4:18:404:18:47

announced large increases in the

minimum wage, I am very proud of the

4:18:474:18:50

fact that it is a Conservative

government between 2010 and today,

4:18:504:18:55

that has increased the minimum wage,

from £5 93 per hour, back in 2010,

4:18:554:19:02

up to £7 83 in our today, 32%

increase. A 32% increase, under,

4:19:024:19:09

taken together with the national

living wage, legally required

4:19:094:19:13

minimum wage, and I'm very proud

that it is a Conservative government

4:19:134:19:16

that has increased it by 32% and

over that period, inflation has been

4:19:164:19:22

only 19%, substantially higher than

inflation.

Grateful to my honourable

4:19:224:19:27

friend for giving way, would he

accept the premise of the Bill, it

4:19:274:19:30

is a wonderful thing for them to

work, and very important part of

4:19:304:19:34

growing up, this bill particularly

to protect the young, it is surely

4:19:344:19:43

the case that you can go to work and

work hard but you are entitled to be

4:19:434:19:47

paid fairly.

As the honourable

member for Stirling pointed out in

4:19:474:19:50

his early intervention, the idea

that you should be fairly paid for a

4:19:504:19:54

fair day 's work or even a fair few

hours work is important Conservative

4:19:544:19:59

principle, it is an important

fundamental right as well, I agree

4:19:594:20:03

entirely with the premise of the

question and the point, so, I would

4:20:034:20:08

like to start by putting on record,

once again, my very strong support

4:20:084:20:12

for the concept of the minimum wage,

and the national living wage, and

4:20:124:20:16

the fact that it has been increased

by such a large amount, I would also

4:20:164:20:21

mention in passing, while talking

about waging for those on low

4:20:214:20:25

earnings, the increase in the

tax-free allowance, over the three

4:20:254:20:29

years, 6500, up to 11,500, has meant

people on the minimum wage, the

4:20:294:20:34

topic of this bill, the take-home

wages, have gone up by 37%. Not only

4:20:344:20:41

has the minimum wage gone up by 32%,

but they are paying proportionally

4:20:414:20:45

less tax at the same time, I think

it is important to bear in mind low

4:20:454:20:51

tax has a role to play to make sure

that people have a decent wage. We

4:20:514:20:58

have talked a bit this afternoon

about enforcement, because clearly,

4:20:584:21:03

a national minimum wage or living

wage is only as effective as its

4:21:034:21:08

enforcement, and that was a point

that was started on by the

4:21:084:21:11

honourable member for Glasgow South.

In the last financial year, the year

4:21:114:21:18

2016-17, H M Darcy, which is the

body responsible for enforcing the

4:21:184:21:22

national minimum wage, took action

against 1150 -- 1134 individual

4:21:224:21:30

businesses, quite a good track

record of taking action to enforce

4:21:304:21:34

the minimum wage. -- HMR see. They

clawed back £10.9 million, fairly

4:21:344:21:40

substantial sum, the action they

took encompassed 98,000 workers who

4:21:404:21:45

had been illegally underpaid. --

HMRC. So, I think that evidence

4:21:454:21:49

suggest that HMRC is taking its

enforcement role very seriously and

4:21:494:21:54

enjoying some success in making sure

that the national minimum wage and

4:21:544:22:00

living wage are adhered to.

My very

good friend, my neighbour, thank you

4:22:004:22:05

for giving way. Just to clarify,

HMRC did not is the money, they

4:22:054:22:14

presumably gave it to those who had

lost it?

When someone has been

4:22:144:22:18

illegally underpaid -- underpaid

they receive retrospective

4:22:184:22:22

compensation. As to where the funds

go, I rather suspect they end up

4:22:224:22:27

with HM Treasury but it is certainly

the case that the people who have

4:22:274:22:31

been underpaid get made good for the

unfair loss which they have

4:22:314:22:33

suffered. Yes, of course.

My brother

took part in one of these trials for

4:22:334:22:41

a telephone sales company, two days

unpaid, having to pay for transport

4:22:414:22:45

up and down. He is a physics

graduate, very intelligent, he knows

4:22:454:22:51

it is illegal but has no confidence

if he reports it it will go

4:22:514:22:55

anywhere, so it is also part of the

key to enable easy reporting to HM

4:22:554:23:01

sea, and companies having to report

themselves about how many jobs are

4:23:014:23:06

available, as the bill requires, is

that not why this bill is needed? --

4:23:064:23:09

HMRC. I will come to the bill in a

moment but in answer to the

4:23:094:23:13

question, I entirely agree that the

experience his brother had, two

4:23:134:23:18

days, clearly way beyond anything

that is remotely reasonable, the

4:23:184:23:21

honourable gentleman is right,

reporting should be made easier, we

4:23:214:23:26

should put these back Rafael acting

to the public domain so that people

4:23:264:23:29

who feel they have been unfairly

abused in this area or another will

4:23:294:23:34

report the companies, yes.

Would he

agree that one way of dealing with

4:23:344:23:43

this is to have clear guidance on

the existing law. About what is an

4:23:434:23:48

acceptable page trial, for example,

if you hours, and what is flagrantly

4:23:484:23:51

trying to dodge the minimum living

wage and the law.

That brings me

4:23:514:24:01

nicely onto the next point I would

like to make but before I come to

4:24:014:24:04

that point, to other fact I would

like to put on record nation to

4:24:044:24:09

enforcement, first of those, HMRC

has a team of 400 people working on

4:24:094:24:12

this, and I'm very sorry that the

honourable member's brother did not

4:24:124:24:16

feel able to report the matter to

one of those 400 staff and the

4:24:164:24:22

budget for enforcement has recently

been doubled, from 13 million, to 25

4:24:224:24:28

million, that gives some confidence

that HMRC and the government are

4:24:284:24:31

taking this very seriously. Let me

turn out to the point just raised by

4:24:314:24:36

my honourable friend, the member for

Torbay. There is clearly an issue

4:24:364:24:44

with enforcement, my understanding

of the law as it stands, excessively

4:24:444:24:49

long unpaid work trials are

currently unlawfully and should be

4:24:494:24:56

paid for, the examples we have

heard, three examples heard in the

4:24:564:24:59

chamber today, two from the

honourable member for Glasgow South,

4:24:594:25:02

and the example we heard a moment

ago, from the honourable member for

4:25:024:25:08

Brighton... Brighton Kemptown. Three

examples, all of those involved

4:25:084:25:12

appearance of work two days, in the

latter case, and a period of two or

4:25:124:25:17

three days in one case, and 40 hours

in the other. All of those strike me

4:25:174:25:21

as being quite clearly far in excess

of what is reasonable and ought to

4:25:214:25:28

fail that test of being long paid

work trials. So I would certainly...

4:25:284:25:34

One moment, I would certainly

welcome the minister in his response

4:25:344:25:39

in due course, clarifying that it is

also his understanding that those

4:25:394:25:43

three examples we have heard this

afternoon do indeed contradict

4:25:434:25:46

existing regulation, and in his

view, add those being, one of them

4:25:464:25:52

was reported, had they been

reported, the company would likely

4:25:524:25:56

have been found against, I would

very much welcome the Minister's

4:25:564:26:01

confirmation on that point.

Is my

honourable friend aware that there

4:26:014:26:09

should be a job intended at the end,

some of the examples prepared today,

4:26:094:26:12

that is not happening. There is

potentially a problem with

4:26:124:26:16

enforcement of the current

legislation and we need a review of

4:26:164:26:20

that, rather than duplicating laws.

Again, I think if there are trials

4:26:204:26:25

taking place with no certain job at

the end or no job vacancy, that is

4:26:254:26:29

again an outrageous abuse.

It is a

fraud!

From said and reposition,

4:26:294:26:36

yes, I agree with that interjection,

it is fraud, and I look forward to

4:26:364:26:41

the Minister offering thoughts on

that in due course. Excuse me.

4:26:414:26:44

Recovering from...

4:26:444:26:46

As I understand... But somebody

wished to make an intervention?

4:26:514:26:56

LAUGHTER

That is a very kind suggestion but

4:26:564:27:04

this is an important matter. You

have made it worse! The honourable

4:27:044:27:14

member for Glasgow South's bill, any

period of trial working even as much

4:27:144:27:19

as five minutes would fall foul of

the bill as drafted, he is nodding

4:27:194:27:22

his head. I think as with any piece

of regulation there is a balance to

4:27:224:27:29

strike. All the examples we have

heard I completely agree are totally

4:27:294:27:32

unreasonable and should be an waffle

and those companies should be

4:27:324:27:37

prosecuted and fined. But I think

there are examples where, and I am

4:27:374:27:42

coming to the conclusion of my

remarks, there are examples of

4:27:424:27:46

companies who quite legitimately

want somebody to do a reasonable

4:27:464:27:49

amount of trial work by which one

might mean a few hours. To oppose

4:27:494:27:53

upon them the administered overhead,

I consider a 3-4 hours to be the

4:27:534:28:01

maximum reasonable, it would be

unfair, potentially unfair, I will

4:28:014:28:04

take intervention in the second,

it'll be unfair to impose upon those

4:28:044:28:09

businesses the administrative

setting up payroll, national

4:28:094:28:13

insurance and so on, making a return

to HMRC in relation to a very short

4:28:134:28:17

and very reasonable period of trial

work and I will happily give way.

Of

4:28:174:28:22

course he knows of the other

instruments which exist for

4:28:224:28:26

employers and he can just test out

their skills of the honourable

4:28:264:28:29

gentleman applies to my copy shop

and I ask him to prove he can make a

4:28:294:28:33

cappuccino he has done what he has

to do and I've satisfied myself.

4:28:334:28:36

What I don't need to do is put on

shift with the rest of the staff and

4:28:364:28:40

pump them working alongside other

colleagues and contributing to my

4:28:404:28:44

profit margin without payment.

If it

is an entire shift that is clearly

4:28:444:28:50

wholly unreasonable but if I trial

is let's say an hour and it involves

4:28:504:28:59

serving copy I think when you test

someone out, testing and any live

4:28:594:29:04

work environment gives you

information about their suitability.

4:29:044:29:09

In the example of a copy shop, where

are they to work for one hour as a

4:29:094:29:13

trial I would consider that to be

reasonable and would not require

4:29:134:29:16

payment. If it was an eight-hour

shift I think it would and should

4:29:164:29:20

require full payment and my concern

now is as drafted the one hour trial

4:29:204:29:25

would get caught. I will take is on

prevention and come back.

I am

4:29:254:29:31

pretty sure all of us in this house

as employers will have written into

4:29:314:29:35

our contract is the fact that all of

our staff when they start start with

4:29:354:29:39

a probationary period, would that

not be a more appropriate way to

4:29:394:29:41

handle this matter?

How much it

would, if you take somebody on I

4:29:414:29:48

think the reasonable expectation is

that they, a provisional period is

4:29:484:29:55

typically one month but can be

three, asking an employer to employ

4:29:554:29:59

someone for a period of between one

and three months who it transpires

4:29:594:30:02

within a matter of a few hours is

unsuitable I think is a little and

4:30:024:30:07

fair on the employer. I am spoiled

for choice here. I will give way

4:30:074:30:11

over here.

Thank you, will he also

accepted someone is doing a trial

4:30:114:30:16

period of one hour some people are

much more comfortable with doing a

4:30:164:30:20

trial period of an hour than sitting

through an injury of 45 minutes in

4:30:204:30:24

which they might find extremely

stressful and uncomfortable and

4:30:244:30:28

might be underprepared for.

I do

agree and I think from the point of

4:30:284:30:32

view of an employer and I have run

my own businesses 15 years before

4:30:324:30:37

being collected, often interviews

are not a good way of ascertaining

4:30:374:30:41

someone's suitability. People come

up with all sorts of nonsense

4:30:414:30:44

weather is getting someone to do the

job in some form even if for a short

4:30:444:30:48

period like an hour you learn a lot

about their capability. I give way.

4:30:484:30:53

I thank my honourable friend

forgiving way. I appreciate the

4:30:534:30:59

perspective, the mechanical process

of producing copy in a coffee shop

4:30:594:31:02

but with my honourable friend except

had of the new need social skills

4:31:024:31:08

which is a more subtle skill to

assess before perhaps offering...

I

4:31:084:31:13

do agree it's a subtle process, the

honourable member asked if I would

4:31:134:31:19

work for free and I suppose all of

us in a sense have done gigantic

4:31:194:31:23

free trial shifts, it's called being

a parliamentary candidate. When I

4:31:234:31:27

was first elected in December 2006,

ran in the 2010 collection and lost

4:31:274:31:33

by 42 votes, it was an extended four

ear and page trial period which

4:31:334:31:37

ended up being rather unsuccessful.

I will give way.

I thank my

4:31:374:31:43

honourable friend forgiving way,

does he agree that a trial period

4:31:434:31:46

can be beneficial for those trying

out as well to see they want unlike

4:31:464:31:51

the job? I did a trial period when I

was younger for a few hours and it's

4:31:514:31:56

about getting the balance between

rights and responsibilities and we

4:31:564:31:59

don't want to exploit anybody but

also creating a facilitating

4:31:594:32:04

opportunities and jobs.

I agree, if

you have a short trial period and to

4:32:044:32:07

be clear I mean a couple of hours,

that can give an employer confidence

4:32:074:32:12

to give someone a job, perhaps from

a disadvantaged background or who

4:32:124:32:16

does not come across very strongly

in interviews. They might give that

4:32:164:32:20

employer the confidence to imply

that person when otherwise they

4:32:204:32:22

might not. I will give way here.

Thank you, I wonder if you can

4:32:224:32:30

clarify something, I am listening

carefully, but I cannot understand

4:32:304:32:34

why you had to have an page trial

shifts when what you could do in a

4:32:344:32:38

much more fair and just way is put

somebody on a temporary contract and

4:32:384:32:42

assess them and then decide he would

give them a permanent contract?

To

4:32:424:32:47

be clear to the house I don't think

the full and page trial shifts are

4:32:474:32:52

ethical, right or model. My

understanding is they are illegal

4:32:524:32:55

already and if they are not they

should be made to be so I do not

4:32:554:33:00

want is full and page trial shifts

to be legal but a short period of

4:33:004:33:05

time, one or two hours I would

suggest I think, you don't need to

4:33:054:33:09

have a temporary contract to do

that. If you ask someone to enter

4:33:094:33:14

into a temporary contract it entails

paperwork and bureaucracy. It

4:33:144:33:18

creates, notwithstanding the two

years point, in relation to

4:33:184:33:23

discrimination it creates

immediately binding legal

4:33:234:33:24

obligations and to do all that

simply for someone who is

4:33:244:33:27

essentially going through an

interview process I think does

4:33:274:33:31

impose an unreasonable burden on the

prospective employer particularly if

4:33:314:33:34

you are interviewing ten people for

one position, to have to give all

4:33:344:33:39

ten temporary contract I think is an

excessive measure in the context of

4:33:394:33:42

a one or two hour trial. I have

spoken for a bit longer than I had

4:33:424:33:47

planned, I will before concluding

take one last intervention from my

4:33:474:33:54

honourable member.

I am most

grateful, we all know being

4:33:544:34:00

parliamentary candidates one gets a

lot of feedback whether you like it

4:34:004:34:03

or not, I think one of the very

powerful points was the feedback to

4:34:034:34:11

the employed, I think it's it an

excellent idea. What I am worried

4:34:114:34:17

about is that companies are nervous

about providing that feedback which

4:34:174:34:21

is helpful. If this gets I would

hope that the

INAUDIBLE

4:34:214:34:38

To have the trouble of going to your

place of accommodation trial work as

4:34:424:34:46

well and then not even give feedback

I think is a gross discourtesy, I

4:34:464:34:51

think it will discourage people from

going to interviews and I completely

4:34:514:34:54

agree with the point the honourable

gentleman just made.

And if this

4:34:544:34:59

does not pass at second reading and

goes to committee today that will

4:34:594:35:03

continue to happen. Does he agree we

should see this bill in committee.

I

4:35:034:35:07

have an open mind on this bill, I

would like to see what the Minister

4:35:074:35:11

has to say in response to the

questions I have posed during my

4:35:114:35:15

speech particularly in relation to

whether one or two hours of work is

4:35:154:35:19

or is not part of the current

legislation. Let me just concludes

4:35:194:35:28

by, normally those words are greeted

with a cheer, I will take that as

4:35:284:35:31

encouragement. Let me conclude by

saying there is a balance to strike,

4:35:314:35:36

if we impose too many barriers when

it comes to people creating

4:35:364:35:40

employment and this applies to

generally onerous employment

4:35:404:35:42

legislation, there is a risk that

rather than protecting people we

4:35:424:35:49

prevent jobs from being created. One

of the reasons this country has

4:35:494:35:53

greeted 3 million jobs in last eight

years is we have in this country

4:35:534:35:58

quite a sensible balance I think

between protections for workers on

4:35:584:36:01

the one hand and avoiding overly

burdening employers on the other. I

4:36:014:36:07

am nervous about upsetting the

delicate balance. As I say at the

4:36:074:36:13

beginning I agree with the points

about full shifts, they should not

4:36:134:36:16

be lawful and I will be listening

carefully to the minister 's

4:36:164:36:19

comments when he comes to wind up

the debate in a few minutes time.

4:36:194:36:24

Doctor Alan Whitehead.

Thank you

Madam Deputy Speaker, firstly may I

4:36:244:36:31

congratulate the member for Glasgow

side for bringing this important and

4:36:314:36:35

I think very well constructive bill

to the house. We have been a little

4:36:354:36:41

diverted into the question of one

hour or two hours or whatever as far

4:36:414:36:46

as unpaid work is concerned. This

bill essentially is about the

4:36:464:36:51

principle of a fair day 's pay for a

fair day 's work. And I think that

4:36:514:36:58

point needs to be placed in the

context of what we are talking about

4:36:584:37:03

today into some wider context

because unpaid work trials have

4:37:034:37:07

become a widespread practice in the

hospitality, entertainment and

4:37:074:37:11

retail sectors and we need to place

that development into a wider

4:37:114:37:16

context. We have in recent years

witnessed an explosion of

4:37:164:37:25

exploitative working practices

linked with the gig economy. That

4:37:254:37:30

commonplace phrase does not do

justice to what is occurring, the

4:37:304:37:34

avoidance of employment rights and

benefits, remuneration on a mass

4:37:344:37:37

scale. Unpaid work trials must be

seen in the broader context of a

4:37:374:37:43

range of sharp practices which are

associated with low paid insecure

4:37:434:37:47

employment in this country designed

to cut the burden on the employer at

4:37:474:37:50

the expense of hundreds of thousands

if not millions of workers. Just in

4:37:504:37:54

the last few weeks in this place we

discussed as the honourable member

4:37:544:37:59

for Glasgow side has mentioned

tipping practices which take

4:37:594:38:02

rightfully and tips from waiting

staff and recycled onto top of the

4:38:024:38:05

pay of other workers to minimum

wage. Also in the last two weeks

4:38:054:38:10

we've seen how major international

companies have failed to pay staff

4:38:104:38:15

the minimum wage. There is a pattern

of stop I will give way.

Does he

4:38:154:38:22

share my shock and concern that the

British Retail Consortium failed to

4:38:224:38:25

acknowledge this was even a problem

and refused to meet the honourable

4:38:254:38:29

gentleman to even discuss the

matter?

I do share his shock and

4:38:294:38:35

concern. And I think it underlines

actually how a number of very

4:38:354:38:40

important institutions in this

country are continuing to

4:38:404:38:45

underestimate and even turn a blind

eye to all these practices

4:38:454:38:49

associated with the gig economy, one

of which is of course the question

4:38:494:38:54

of unpaid work trials. So there is a

pattern. It has and I don't think

4:38:544:39:02

being clearly addressed by the

Taylor review and has not been

4:39:024:39:06

addressed by the government's weak

response to it. More than £1 billion

4:39:064:39:10

is lost in wages every year to

unpaid work of which the continuing

4:39:104:39:14

practice of unpaid work trials is a

continuing, confidence factor.

I

4:39:144:39:21

think I know the reported a verse

two, there has been a subsequent

4:39:214:39:26

report since then which actually

find it about £3 billion lost wages.

4:39:264:39:35

So 2 billion has been lost since I

last looked. I think that underlines

4:39:354:39:40

what the big picture we are talking

about here as far as these practices

4:39:404:39:44

are concerned. Unite the union say

there has been a sixfold increase in

4:39:444:39:51

complaints about the practice in the

last three years and indeed the work

4:39:514:39:54

done by the member for Glasgow South

in collecting personal stories of

4:39:544:39:58

this exploitation chimes with what

is we have heard today many of us

4:39:584:40:02

have had experience of the road are

constituents, our own children and

4:40:024:40:05

on local communities. I give way.

I

can speak from personal experience

4:40:054:40:11

as the second youngest Labour member

in the house, my first experience of

4:40:114:40:16

the world of work was to undertake

an unpaid trial shift against four

4:40:164:40:22

other candidates for a full day 's

shift unpaid and combine that with

4:40:224:40:27

easier hours contract and unfair

tipping practices where we were not

4:40:274:40:30

given tips and it subsidised minimum

wage, combine that with young people

4:40:304:40:34

unaware of trade union rights and

how to join a trade union or engage

4:40:344:40:38

that security employment, that is

the root cause of the problem and

4:40:384:40:42

it's the duty of Parliament to

legislate to protect young people

4:40:424:40:45

and other people exploited by those

nefarious practices. My honourable

4:40:454:40:50

friend makes an important point and

also point that in his personal

4:40:504:40:55

experience he seems to have

experienced all the aspects of this

4:40:554:40:58

particular problem coming together

on one occasion in one place to one

4:40:584:41:01

person so it's an important point he

has made. There are many instances

4:41:014:41:08

of people talking about their own

experiences, this is one of them,

4:41:084:41:13

Clegg did indeed from Scotland,

Kilmarnock, my son was asked to do a

4:41:134:41:21

trial shift in a local restaurant,

the manager on shift did not even

4:41:214:41:25

speak to him when he was in, he was

left in the bar without direction

4:41:254:41:28

and when he tried to help the others

he was told to get back behind the

4:41:284:41:31

bar. He was not paid a penny, the

restaurant had done the same thing

4:41:314:41:35

to a friend of my son except it was

for a kitchen porter and he did four

4:41:354:41:40

hours without pay and at the end of

the ship they just left, waited over

4:41:404:41:43

a week and no job was offered.

4:41:434:41:44

is a real problem with current

legislation around the use of

4:41:454:41:48

underpaid trial shift, in reality,

the idea of shadowing has been used

4:41:484:41:51

by employers to justify bringing in

unpaid workers to cover staff

4:41:514:41:58

shortages, sickness, or particularly

busy periods or events, there is a

4:41:584:42:01

need to clarify the legal position

for employers and employees with

4:42:014:42:04

legislation and this bill seeks to

do that, by closing current

4:42:044:42:09

legislative loopholes to make sure

that workers are paid for every hour

4:42:094:42:12

they work and every shift they do. I

am happy to give way.

I think what

4:42:124:42:20

the honourable member for Glasgow

South has put together is excellent.

4:42:204:42:24

And I congratulate him, and I also

congratulate Croydon South's...

4:42:244:42:32

Souths seem to be in the air

today... Can we be clear, this bill

4:42:324:42:36

is not going to apply to someone

that just goes along to have a

4:42:364:42:40

taster for a day, does not work

necessarily work a shift but just

4:42:404:42:45

gets an experience of what the work

is like, and that is not what this

4:42:454:42:49

bill is about, is it?

No, my clear

understanding, and I think this will

4:42:494:42:56

be borne out by the honourable

member for Glasgow South, that is

4:42:564:43:00

not what this bill is about, it is

not about work experience, it is not

4:43:004:43:06

about those factors, it is about...

Can I just clarify for the house, as

4:43:064:43:14

it is drafted, this bill would

exclude those kind of things,

4:43:144:43:17

anything from making the coffee,

briefly, would be outlawed. The bill

4:43:174:43:23

sets the threshold at zero. Any

moment spent working would be caught

4:43:234:43:29

up with in this bill.

I'm not sure

the Minister has actually, if I may

4:43:294:43:40

say so, correctly put across the

idea of what working is, as far

4:43:404:43:46

as... Various things which do not

constitute work but constitute other

4:43:464:43:52

things not related to work would not

be covered by this particular bill.

4:43:524:43:56

Where there is clear work being

undertaken, and that work is

4:43:564:44:01

recognised in the normal sense of

the word, then it would be covered

4:44:014:44:04

by the Bill.

Just to once again

clarify, those kind of trials, those

4:44:044:44:11

tests, would not be covered by the

national minimum wage, so therefore,

4:44:114:44:16

the payment would not be applicable

anyway, they are not covered by

4:44:164:44:19

national minimum wage test or trial

in any way.

I think the point of

4:44:194:44:26

this is to close gaps in

legislation, in order to make clear

4:44:264:44:30

what it is a person is doing when

they are working, and what it is

4:44:304:44:35

they are doing in terms of trial

work and how that can be much better

4:44:354:44:41

defined and protected as far as

legislation goes, that is exactly

4:44:414:44:43

what I think is trying to be brought

about today. Now, the bill would

4:44:434:44:51

require employers to pay applicants

undertaking trial work periods at

4:44:514:44:55

least the national minimum wage,

that is again a clarity that the

4:44:554:44:58

Bill is making and importantly it

will provide clarity over what they

4:44:584:45:03

work trial is and what is the racing

should between an employer, and an

4:45:034:45:10

employee, that has been used by many

unscrupulous workers. Essentially to

4:45:104:45:18

cut staff costs, there is an element

of coercion, widespread response to

4:45:184:45:22

the call for evidence is that many

people who have undertaken unpaid

4:45:224:45:25

work trials felt they could not

refuse to do so, or speak up because

4:45:254:45:29

of a fear of jeopardising chances to

get a job

4:45:294:45:34

there is a difference between

exploiting people for shifts for

4:45:394:45:41

jobs that do not exist, and for

trying some the other four are now

4:45:414:45:45

or two and giving them the

opportunity to prove themselves.

4:45:454:45:51

Yes, of course, of course... Of

course there is a difference and

4:45:514:45:53

this bill does not fundamentally

change that position, it is, it is,

4:45:534:45:59

it is by my understanding seeking to

clarify what it is to actually do

4:45:594:46:07

work and following that definition,

to get paid for that work, and the

4:46:074:46:12

principal, if you do work, defined

as serious work, then you should get

4:46:124:46:19

paid for it.

Can I reiterate, there

is a world of difference between an

4:46:194:46:26

exploitive unpaid trial shift and

the casualised context that I

4:46:264:46:32

experience, controlled and time

bound assessment centre, that I did

4:46:324:46:35

for my first graduate job, this bill

is about defining the difference, we

4:46:354:46:40

should do that as part of the bill,

that is why it should be supported.

4:46:404:46:47

As my honourable friend points out,

if indeed it is methods are being

4:46:474:46:55

sought to not support this bill,

because of quibbles about what are

4:46:554:47:00

trials and when is someone actually

just doing a practice, when they are

4:47:004:47:04

doing a trial, that would be a great

shame because this is about a

4:47:044:47:10

principle and an area of bad

practice which needs to be shutdown.

4:47:104:47:16

There is widespread public anger

about the practice of unpaid trials,

4:47:164:47:19

and indeed, we have heard the

mention of the cafes in Glasgow

4:47:194:47:27

which sparked this campaign, 13,000

people signed that petition. And

4:47:274:47:34

indeed, the unpaid petition, to

support that matter the petition or

4:47:344:47:41

on for people to support the bill,

is at more than 100,000 people. This

4:47:414:47:45

practice goes against the sense of

natural justice that most people

4:47:454:47:51

have, widespread public support to

remedy this as soon as the through

4:47:514:47:55

the clarification of the contractual

relationship between the worker and

4:47:554:47:57

theme ploy, and the amendment of

section 64, to require the minimum

4:47:574:48:04

wage to be paid to those who

participate in work trials. I state,

4:48:044:48:08

as I stated at the beginning of my

contribution, the views of work

4:48:084:48:12

trials is part of a much broader

picture, the serious long-term

4:48:124:48:15

remedy for this all too common

exploitation is a raft of worker

4:48:154:48:19

protection issues, right at the head

of Labour's manifesto commitment, to

4:48:194:48:25

give all workers equal rights from

Day 1, whether part or full-time,

4:48:254:48:30

temporary or permanent, so working

conditions are not brought down.

4:48:304:48:33

After years of the munition of

workers' rights, that will be no

4:48:334:48:37

easy task, and we will be faced with

similar loopholes to close and

4:48:374:48:42

abusive to tackle but I'm pleased to

offer from our full support from

4:48:424:48:46

this bill, dealing with this

particularly unjust form of

4:48:464:48:51

exploitation. -- diminution. It

affects so many young people across

4:48:514:48:56

this country at the start of their

working lives, with the impression

4:48:564:49:00

that then gives them that the world

is stacked against them in their

4:49:004:49:04

working career, and if only for that

reason we need to make sure this

4:49:044:49:10

passes today.

The honourable

gentleman raised an advert as an

4:49:104:49:21

unpaid internship. I can confirm to

him, that position was never filled,

4:49:214:49:25

it was advertised but never filled.

I am reminded that a paid resurgent

4:49:254:49:31

that I had worked for me for a brief

20 days paid travel expenses as an

4:49:314:49:38

internship, before she took on the

role as a full-page researcher. It

4:49:384:49:44

was so brief that it had slipped my

mind. Madame Deputy Speaker, I

4:49:444:49:48

apologise if I miss misled the house

in anyway.

Will the honourable

4:49:484:49:55

gentleman... The honourable

gentleman has done exactly the right

4:49:554:49:58

thing by clarifying as quickly as

possible and putting the record

4:49:584:50:03

straight. -- well, the honourable

gentleman has done exactly the right

4:50:034:50:06

thing.

Can I add my congratulations

to the honourable member for Glasgow

4:50:064:50:12

South, for bringing this bill before

the house, I think this is a

4:50:124:50:17

fascinating area to explore, and I

speak to you as someone who has had

4:50:174:50:20

rather a lot of experience in the

jobs market, before being ornament

4:50:204:50:26

on these green benches I was lucky

enough to build up a business and

4:50:264:50:29

before that I enjoy many years as a

teacher but before that, I did just

4:50:294:50:33

about everything else, I sold

sandwiches, office to office, drove

4:50:334:50:37

a delivery van around London, worked

in a nightclub, clean carpets,

4:50:374:50:42

worked as a cleaner, restaurant

pianist, a very...

Pianist!

LAUGHTER

4:50:424:50:51

I have worked as a dancer, you name

it, I have done it. I have worked as

4:50:514:50:57

a casual worker, zero hour was

worker, and like many of us I have

4:50:574:51:01

been a volunteer worker. In many of

these jobs there were times when I

4:51:014:51:06

was expected quite reasonably to do

a bit of a trial shift, nothing

4:51:064:51:10

major, nothing long-lasting, but

just a test of my limited abilities.

4:51:104:51:16

I have to say, some of these trials

were paid. Some were not paid. And

4:51:164:51:23

in the ones that were not paid, it

is just about possible for an

4:51:234:51:26

unscrupulous potential employer to

work out a way of getting people to

4:51:264:51:31

work unpaid on an ongoing basis, but

it would have to involve a very

4:51:314:51:37

complicated and convoluted system,

involving many different workers,

4:51:374:51:42

and it would already be illegal, any

employer including many of my old

4:51:424:51:46

employer is of course currently has

the right to use only legitimate

4:51:464:51:51

recruitment practices and tests. In

some areas that I have worked in,

4:51:514:51:57

that would include a trial shift but

it must not be excessive in length.

4:51:574:52:07

I am going as fast as I can... It is

simply an assessment, a trial, and a

4:52:074:52:13

short trial, activities carried out

by a person undergoing that

4:52:134:52:17

assessment would not constitute

work, if it did, it would need to be

4:52:174:52:22

paid and at least at the national

minimum wage. As the house will

4:52:224:52:25

know, this applies from the workers

first day of work regardless as

4:52:254:52:28

whether they are regarded as doing a

trial for the Ian Prior, a trial is

4:52:284:52:33

already not legitimate wearing

employer has no intention of

4:52:334:52:36

offering a job and is just seeking

to obtain the benefit of a bit of

4:52:364:52:41

free labour. -- doing a trial for

the lawyer. We already covered in

4:52:414:52:47

legislation, and this proposed deal,

I am worried it will not only lead

4:52:474:52:50

to additional confusions with the

voluntary sector, it will impose

4:52:504:52:54

more regulatory burdens on

employers, leading to the risk that

4:52:544:52:57

employers will think twice about

employment, and reducing general

4:52:574:53:03

opportunities for people like me to

find work. As vice-chair of the

4:53:034:53:08

all-party group for small and micro

business I must also, the Federation

4:53:084:53:12

of Small Businesses do not support

this proposed change, for many of

4:53:124:53:15

the reasons I have outlined. The

house will also note, the bill has

4:53:154:53:19

considerable overlap with the unpaid

work experience Prohibition Bill,

4:53:194:53:24

originating in another place that

competed its committee stage on the

4:53:244:53:28

13th of March. Members will know

that Bill seeks to prohibit all

4:53:284:53:32

unpaid work experience of longer

than forwards, quite rightly. In

4:53:324:53:41

conclusion, Madame Deputy Speaker,

while I very much understand the

4:53:414:53:45

motivation behind this proposal and

commend the honourable gentleman for

4:53:454:53:48

bringing forward the bill, as

someone who has taken part in many

4:53:484:53:51

such work trials and assessments, I

take the view, I'm afraid, that not

4:53:514:53:57

only is current legislation

sufficient but hardening the law and

4:53:574:54:01

creating a blanket ban is not a

productive way, certainly does not

4:54:014:54:07

seem to me to be a productive way

for us to proceed.

4:54:074:54:12

I think we have heard my views

through interventions on this debate

4:54:164:54:22

already.

Chris Stevens.

I think that

I too have made my remarks very

4:54:224:54:33

clear, thank you.

Minister.

4:54:334:54:36

Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker, May

I congratulate the honourable member

4:54:414:54:45

on Glasgow South on his success in

the private members bill ballot, I

4:54:454:54:50

am proud to serve as the Minister

responsible for the national living

4:54:504:54:54

wage and for workers' rights. I'm

pleased to respond to this important

4:54:544:55:01

debate, because, Madame Deputy

Speaker, we all want to see the

4:55:014:55:05

rights of workers protected. None of

us wants to seem workers abused or

4:55:054:55:11

mistreated or unpaid. That is why

this government is at the cutting

4:55:114:55:17

edge of bringing forward new rights

and protections for our workers. The

4:55:174:55:22

house will have seen just a few

weeks ago, the response to the

4:55:224:55:25

Matthew Taylor report, a truly

ground-breaking report, Madame

4:55:254:55:30

Deputy Speaker, that not only looks

at the modern labour force and how

4:55:304:55:35

we treat people, but looks to extend

rights and protections to workers

4:55:354:55:41

that have never had those rights and

protections before. This is a

4:55:414:55:47

government that is proud to protect

workers' rights, and is proving that

4:55:474:55:51

we do not need the European Union to

help us bring forward rights and

4:55:514:55:57

protections for workers, we are

doing it here in this Parliament as

4:55:574:56:02

a result of the work of this

government. And I am very keen to

4:56:024:56:06

work with the honourable gentleman,

to address the issues that he has

4:56:064:56:13

raised today, and I think there is a

very clear way in which we can do

4:56:134:56:16

this without the need for further

regulation. What is clear is that

4:56:164:56:23

the law is already very clear in

this point, these things are

4:56:234:56:27

outlawed under the current national

minimum...

Order, order, debate to

4:56:274:56:35

be resumed what day...?

4:56:354:56:36

Project.

Objection taken. Second

reading what day? Friday 27th of

4:56:464:56:55

April.

The international film and

assistance Bill second reading.

4:56:554:57:05

Objection taken, second reading what

day?

Friday 20 symbol of April.

4:57:054:57:12

Friday 27th of April.

4:57:124:57:18

Friday the 27th of April.

Electronic

cigarettes regulation Bill second

4:57:224:57:28

reading.

Objection taken second

reading what day? Friday 27th of

4:57:284:57:34

April.

Universal Credit application

advice and assistance Bill second

4:57:344:57:40

reading?

Objection taken, second

reading what day? Friday the 11th of

4:57:404:57:48

May.

Courts abuse of process Bill

second reading.

Not moved.

Emergency

4:57:484:57:59

response drivers protection Bill

second reading.

Objection taken,

4:57:594:58:06

second reading what day?

LAUGHTER

Second reading what day?

Friday the

4:58:064:58:16

6th of July.

British Indian Ocean

territory...

INAUDIBLE

4:58:164:58:25

Objection taken second reading what

day?

Friday the 27th of April.

4:58:254:58:33

Pedicabs London Bill second reading.

Objection taken second reading what

4:58:334:58:40

day? Friday the 27th of April.

Domestic properties minimum energy

4:58:404:58:47

performance Bill second reading.

With the leader of the member in

4:58:474:58:51

charge, now.

Objection taken, what

day? Friday the 27th of April.

4:58:514:59:01

Vagrancy repeal Bill second reading.

Now.

Objection taken, second reading

4:59:014:59:09

what day? Friday 23rd of November.

Voter registration number two Bill

4:59:094:59:15

second reading.

Objection taken the

second reading what day? Friday the

4:59:154:59:25

27th of April.

INAUDIBLE

LAUGHTER

4:59:254:59:40

Objection taken, second reading what

day? Friday the 27th of April.

4:59:404:59:46

Rivers authority is and land

drainage Bill.

Objection taken,

4:59:464:59:55

second reading what day? Friday the

27th of April.

Wild animals in

4:59:555:00:05

circuses reading.

Objection taken

second reading what day?

Friday the

5:00:055:00:13

27th of April. Forensics science

regulatory Bill second reading.

5:00:135:00:23

Objection taken, second reading what

day? Friday 27th of April.

I beg to

5:00:235:00:32

move that this house do now adjourn.

The question is that this house do

5:00:325:00:37

now adjourn. Helen Hayes.

Thank you

Madam Deputy Speaker. I am grateful

5:00:375:00:45

the opportunity to bring to the

house today serious issues which

5:00:455:00:49

threaten the future of my much loved

local football club Dulwich Hamlet.

5:00:495:00:54

And which also have relevance for

local non-league and league clubs

5:00:545:00:57

across the country. I want to start

to Mr Deputy Speaker by expressing

5:00:575:01:03

my heartfelt gratitude to my

predecessor as MP for Dulwich in

5:01:035:01:07

West Norwood Baroness Joel Ward

bricks and his involvement with

5:01:075:01:10

Dulwich Hamlet goes back a long way

and who I know is very close to the

5:01:105:01:16

hearts of the Dulwich Hamlet

supporters. I also want to thank my

5:01:165:01:20

right honourable learned friend the

member for Camberwell and Peckham in

5:01:205:01:24

his constituency that champions the

stadium it sets and to support for

5:01:245:01:29

this campaign has been invaluable

and the noble Lord Kennedy of

5:01:295:01:32

Southwark who has been raising this

issue in the other place added

5:01:325:01:37

during there are few

parliamentarians unaware of the

5:01:375:01:39

issue facing Dulwich Hamlet and who

have not been photographed wearing

5:01:395:01:42

the club scarf. I would like to

thank the supporters trust, the

5:01:425:01:48

football club and many of my

constituents who have written to me

5:01:485:01:51

about this issue as well as

thousands who turn up to champion

5:01:515:01:54

held recently to support the team. I

will speak today about community, a

5:01:545:02:00

local community emblematic of the

diversity and confusion which makes

5:02:005:02:04

London so great and the National

community galvanised by the same

5:02:045:02:07

ideals as our pocket of South East

London. Dulwich Hamlet FC are not

5:02:075:02:12

unique in their current struggle,

their cause has received support

5:02:125:02:15

from around the world for from the

football community and significantly

5:02:155:02:25

from many who are not archetypal

fans of the game but to recognise

5:02:255:02:28

the immense community value it

brings.

Can I congratulate her on

5:02:285:02:30

this wonderful idea promoting young

people's access to sport and can I

5:02:305:02:33

also say in this debate how

important it is when they have so

5:02:335:02:37

much knife and gun crime that this

provides a meaningful outlet.

I

5:02:375:02:44

thank my honourable friend for the

intervention, she makes a powerful

5:02:445:02:47

point about the role football can

play and I will come onto some of

5:02:475:02:51

those issues later. There are

similar stories from the football

5:02:515:02:55

community across the country from

sermons deal to Torquay to Hereford

5:02:555:02:59

and Coventry, communities are

fragile and the spaces and

5:02:595:03:02

institutions which bring people from

a diverse range of backgrounds

5:03:025:03:06

together can be rare. Local football

club to provide this focus and

5:03:065:03:10

opportunity of friendships to be

developed and bonds strengthened

5:03:105:03:13

through the sharing of the

passionate football inspires.

I

5:03:135:03:19

thank my honourable friend forgiving

way and securing this debate, many

5:03:195:03:23

of my constituents have contacted me

and talked about their love and

5:03:235:03:26

ability for the club, football clubs

are often the linchpin of

5:03:265:03:30

communities but are becoming

increasingly under threat from

5:03:305:03:33

buyouts like what we have seen in

Dulwich, do you agree that the

5:03:335:03:37

government should look at

strengthening protections for these

5:03:375:03:40

community assets?

I do indeed agree

more can be done to protect these

5:03:405:03:48

powerful institutions. When such

institutions are lost they may be

5:03:485:03:52

gone forever, we must do all we can

to keep them alive. The government

5:03:525:03:56

may argue it cannot intervene in the

commercial or illegal affairs of any

5:03:565:04:00

individual club but the situation at

Dulwich is not the individual, its

5:04:005:04:04

representative of a much wider

problem where short-term financial

5:04:045:04:07

gain seeks to assert itself over an

institution valued not just in

5:04:075:04:12

pounds and pence but people,

friendship, aspiration and history.

5:04:125:04:19

I am really pleased my honourable

friend has brought this up and the

5:04:195:04:22

Hamlet has got a lot of affection,

but this is bigger and wider than

5:04:225:04:27

that club, if we don't have

grassroots football, if we don't

5:04:275:04:31

have small teams like he's getting

in my part of a world where we had

5:04:315:04:34

the likes of Les Ferdinand and Paul

Merson starting how will we get the

5:04:345:04:38

channel into the higher league,

without teams like the Hamlet we

5:04:385:04:41

will not have top tier football, she

supports a team in North London the

5:04:415:04:48

name of which gets me but without

teams like Hamlet we were not have

5:04:485:04:55

teams like spires.

I thank my

honourable friend for his

5:04:555:04:59

intervention and I agree

wholeheartedly. This year Dulwich

5:04:595:05:04

Hamlet celebrated its 125th

anniversary, the historic first took

5:05:045:05:11

place on Friday the 20th of January

1893 at the Dulwich Hamlet

5:05:115:05:15

elementary school. The team said at

Champion Hill in 1902 the same year

5:05:155:05:22

both Manchester United and real

Madrid were founded. It has been

5:05:225:05:25

there ever since. Dulwich Hamlet has

a long history and a strong and

5:05:255:05:28

proud heritage, they are aforetime

amateur cup winners. In 1948

5:05:285:05:38

champion Hill was used for the

London Olympics hosting football

5:05:385:05:41

just as the neighbouring Herne Hill

velodrome in my constituency hosted

5:05:415:05:45

cycling. It's not all been plain

sailing over the years, the club

5:05:455:05:49

faced closure in the 60s and 80s

they gave up their old ground to

5:05:495:05:53

ensure a future and a new stadium.

But Dulwich Hamlet is more than just

5:05:535:05:58

a football club. It is part of the

fabric of the local community

5:05:585:06:02

through its inclusive and accessible

approach to football heads and

5:06:025:06:06

social activities supporting good

causes and the many initiatives led

5:06:065:06:09

to the club and its army of

volunteers from Dulwich to Dunkirk

5:06:095:06:14

anti-Syria. One fan told of his days

as he beat Bobby in south London and

5:06:145:06:20

how Dulwich Hamlet and its

supporters came together to engage

5:06:205:06:23

local youngsters with school

competitions, role models and

5:06:235:06:27

alternative to getting into trouble.

Just one of countless initiatives

5:06:275:06:29

the club has lied in the community.

And the current manager who is in

5:06:295:06:33

the gallery today the aspire Academy

has been developed and worked with

5:06:335:06:37

hundreds more young people every

year. 35 players from the Academy

5:06:375:06:44

have moved into the professional

game but aspire is not just about

5:06:445:06:47

success on the field though it is

certainly that, it is not just about

5:06:475:06:52

developing better players. Aspire

also tries to instil in our young

5:06:525:06:56

people the importance of becoming

better members of their community. I

5:06:565:07:00

am proud of the many young people

from aspire who have not gone on to

5:07:005:07:04

make a career in football but to

have become outstanding citizens.

5:07:045:07:08

The Academy 's work is not limited

to young people however, in recent

5:07:085:07:13

years it's seen the club host a

ground-breaking match between the

5:07:135:07:17

storm 11 in support of LGBT rights,

they arrange food bank collections

5:07:175:07:21

and have sent aid to refugees in

Calais. I have with me a special

5:07:215:07:26

edition scarf to celebrate 100 years

of women's suffrage. The list goes

5:07:265:07:31

on so Dulwich Hamlet have a strong

community identity. It's a family

5:07:315:07:35

club which has brought pressure and

some plain to generations of

5:07:355:07:39

supporters. It is often the first

club children attend because it is

5:07:395:07:43

local, family friendly and has a

great community feel. Fans need by

5:07:435:07:48

and part of a wider local community

and are rightly proud of the way

5:07:485:07:52

they are grown to become a central

part of that community and they are

5:07:525:07:56

recognised for what they are doing.

The efforts made by the club and its

5:07:565:08:00

volunteers to ensure the club

connects with all parts of our local

5:08:005:08:04

community recognised in 2016 when

they were awarded the football

5:08:045:08:09

foundation committee club of the

year at the national game awards in

5:08:095:08:12

London. Everyone wants to keep the

club that way and given the chance I

5:08:125:08:15

know they can do more. Dulwich

Hamlet has business sponsors and

5:08:155:08:19

partners who back the club

financially, put up posters on

5:08:195:08:23

display their scarves because of the

positive image the team has in the

5:08:235:08:27

local community and the benefit

supporters bring to local

5:08:275:08:29

businesses. The club is heading in

the right direction as recently as

5:08:295:08:34

2008, 2009 the club saw average

attendances of just a has risen to

5:08:345:08:43

more than 1500 this season proving

the sustainability of the club and

5:08:435:08:46

the impact it has on the community.

Dulwich Hamlet have much to

5:08:465:08:48

celebrate currently third in the

league and using a promotion to

5:08:485:08:50

conference South but off the pitch

the picture is entirely different.

5:08:505:08:54

The club was acquired by Meadow

partners with operating partner

5:08:545:08:58

Hadley in 2014 and they took

day-to-day control of the club and

5:08:585:09:01

paid off a significant number of

debts which came close to driving

5:09:015:09:06

the club to bankruptcy. The company

made no secret they were looking to

5:09:065:09:09

develop some or all of the current

ground with the club being moved to

5:09:095:09:13

more appropriate facilities nearby.

They stated giving the club a

5:09:135:09:23

long-term future was an integral

part of their plans. In March 2016

5:09:235:09:25

an application to redevelop the

ground was admitted to Southwark

5:09:255:09:27

Council. The plans include provision

for 155 new dwellings as well as a

5:09:275:09:30

new stadium for the club to be built

on metropolitan open land which

5:09:305:09:33

would be handed over to Dulwich

Hamlet FC fan ownership. But there

5:09:335:09:37

was no planning policy designation

for residential use on that site and

5:09:375:09:41

of course the very strong planning

protection of Metropolitan open land

5:09:415:09:45

so essentially there was no clear

policy framework against which the

5:09:455:09:50

council could determine the

application. In December 2017 a

5:09:505:09:53

planning appeal was launched on the

grounds Southwark council failed to

5:09:535:09:56

reach a decision in the required

timescale. Subsequent legal

5:09:565:10:01

wrangling over the football club's

lease resulted in costs for the beer

5:10:015:10:06

and £320,000 being awarded against

the club and the developer withdrew

5:10:065:10:12

the planning appeal. Following the

withdrawal of the planning appeal

5:10:125:10:15

the developer announced they had

withdrawn financial support and

5:10:155:10:18

management for the football club

since in their opinion there was no

5:10:185:10:20

chance of them being able to build

on the part of the site which was

5:10:205:10:23

the subject of the dispute

concerning the lease. In 2017 Meadow

5:10:235:10:28

demanded that the football club sign

a new lease to continue playing on

5:10:285:10:31

Champion Hill or face eviction, most

recently things have exhilarated

5:10:315:10:36

further, Dulwich Hamlet have been

locked out of the ground including

5:10:365:10:38

access to club merchandise,

historically reveal and the War

5:10:385:10:42

memorial. In a bizarre turn of

events Dulwich Hamlet FC have had

5:10:425:10:47

their own name, nickname and

initials are registered as a

5:10:475:10:50

trademark and told not to use them

and although I understand there may

5:10:505:10:53

have been progress on this issue in

the last few days it is nonetheless

5:10:535:10:57

the case that Dulwich Hamlet found

themselves last week without a home

5:10:575:11:00

and without a name putting at risk

the historic ground and the basis

5:11:005:11:04

for the wonderful work they do. Mr

Deputy Speaker none of this is

5:11:045:11:10

necessary, there are number of

alternative issues on the table from

5:11:105:11:13

investors willing to do the right

thing. Southwark Council amid a

5:11:135:11:18

strong commitment to the club

including taking a formal decision

5:11:185:11:21

this week that they would make

capital funding available to acquire

5:11:215:11:24

the site but not every club benefits

from such a strong support base our

5:11:245:11:31

council. The situation is far from

isolated we are seeing clubs whose

5:11:315:11:37

communities face losing access to

vital stats many football clubs

5:11:375:11:44

particularly in London are not only

at non-league level have found

5:11:445:11:47

themselves homeless and in some case

merged out of business after

5:11:475:11:53

following property developers.

Could

I ask the Honourable lady what

5:11:535:12:01

exactly she, the honourable lady

would like the government to do to

5:12:015:12:04

help the club?

If the honourable

member bears with the eye will come

5:12:045:12:13

to exactly those points. There is a

significant housing crisis in

5:12:135:12:17

London, 50,000 new homes a year

needed just to keep up with demand

5:12:175:12:21

and the unavoidable fact is that

football clubs commonly set on

5:12:215:12:24

expensive sites and are considered

less by the beneath them.

5:12:245:12:27

This is not an ardent against

building new homes, which are

5:12:275:12:31

essential, but as new homes are

being built, we must also take care

5:12:315:12:35

of the fabric of communities,

institutions and places that knit

5:12:355:12:38

people together, it is this value

which is never captured on the

5:12:385:12:42

developer's balance sheet. The list

of jobs in London under pressure,

5:12:425:12:47

Enfield FC, Edgware town, Hendon

town and Berwick have all lost

5:12:475:12:51

historic homes, away from London, in

the south-east, where the pressure

5:12:515:12:54

on housing and the value of land is

not always so acute, Northampton

5:12:545:12:58

town, Kettering town, Torquay

United, Merthyr Tydfil, Coventry,

5:12:585:13:02

all facing battles to survive the

property developers circle. As with

5:13:025:13:08

Dulwich Hamlet, the teams are part

of their communities. In a symbol of

5:13:085:13:13

solidarity, Dulwich Hamlet will play

out their remaining games at

5:13:135:13:18

archrivals tooting and's ground, the

club has had messages of support

5:13:185:13:22

from countless teams around the

country. More can be done to stop

5:13:225:13:25

the situation at Dulwich Hamlet

happening to other clubs, I would

5:13:255:13:28

like to end by making another asked

of the Minister, will she commit to

5:13:285:13:32

an urgent audit of stadium across

the country, and quantify the extent

5:13:325:13:39

and nature of the threat which is

exemplified by the situation at

5:13:395:13:42

Dulwich Hamlet? Will she use the

information to make the case to her

5:13:425:13:46

colleagues at the Ministry for

housing, communities and local

5:13:465:13:50

government for greater protection to

be assigned to league and non-league

5:13:505:13:53

football grounds, perhaps using

protections introduced by Labour.

5:13:535:13:59

Will she view how it could possibly

come to pass that the trademark

5:13:595:14:07

125-year-old football club was

registered seemingly without the

5:14:075:14:09

live and continuous use of the

club's name, how could this decision

5:14:095:14:12

have possibly been approved by the

intellectual property office, will

5:14:125:14:17

she take steps to make sure that no

other football clubs can be

5:14:175:14:22

threatened with loss of identity.

Will she looked at the

5:14:225:14:25

redistribution of funding within the

football world to grassroots

5:14:255:14:29

football, without which the Premier

League will be starved of the talent

5:14:295:14:32

it needs to be sustained.

I don't

want to interrupt the honourable

5:14:325:14:37

lady because she has made an

incredibly powerful case and the

5:14:375:14:39

Minister will be keen to respond but

I hope she pays credit to the

5:14:395:14:44

football foundation who are doing a

great deal of work in redistribution

5:14:445:14:47

money, I compromise the back

appreciate one of the problems with

5:14:475:14:50

British football is there is a lot

of money at the top and not at the

5:14:505:14:53

feeder clubs, the football

foundation are doing a really good

5:14:535:14:57

job for grassroots football, in the

opinion of myself and many

5:14:575:14:59

colleagues.

I thank you for your

intervention, important point, well

5:14:595:15:03

made. Finally, will she progress

with reforms to ensure that the fit

5:15:035:15:07

and proper person's test must apply

to non-league ownership, some form

5:15:075:15:12

of bond attached to any acquisition,

and explore how fans can play a

5:15:125:15:15

greater protective role in the

ownership and governance of league

5:15:155:15:19

and non-league football clubs, for

Dulwich Hamlet, the immediate

5:15:195:15:22

solution is simple for the club to

be given its home back, the current

5:15:225:15:25

breakdown of trust and relationship

between Meadow, the council and the

5:15:255:15:30

club is of grave concern. I believe

it would be better for everyone,

5:15:305:15:33

including Meadow, for the land to be

sold at fair market value on terms

5:15:335:15:37

which guarantee a sustainable future

for the club. I hope the Minister

5:15:375:15:40

will also call thank you very much

for joining us on calling on Meadow

5:15:405:15:44

to re-engage, and negotiate a way

forward which places a secure for

5:15:445:15:48

future for Dulwich Hamlet football

club at its historic home as the

5:15:485:15:52

highest priority. Mr happy Speaker,

forward the Hamlet. -- Mr Deputy

5:15:525:16:02

Speaker, forward the Hamlet!

Thank

you for securing time for this

5:16:025:16:06

debate, and I pay credit to the

Thames that she has made and others,

5:16:065:16:10

to bring forward these issues which

are using considerable local

5:16:105:16:14

concern. I'm not sure that there was

anything I disagreed with, Dulwich

5:16:145:16:20

Hamlet football club have been part

of the local community for 125

5:16:205:16:25

years, starting life just like my

two teams of Chatham town and

5:16:255:16:29

Tottenham Hotspur, in the Southern

league, when I lived in Herne Hill I

5:16:295:16:33

was an occasional visitor myself to

champion Hill. The club may not have

5:16:335:16:37

gone on to the dizzy heights of the

Lillywhites, their standing in

5:16:375:16:41

non-league football today cannot be

underestimated. They currently sit

5:16:415:16:44

near the top of the league, with a

dedicated home following of nearly

5:16:445:16:48

2000, this is relatively unheard of

for a team residing in the seventh

5:16:485:16:53

tier of English football. That is

alongside all the brilliant Academy

5:16:535:16:57

work that the honourable lady

referred to. It is a massive shame

5:16:575:17:00

therefore that at a time when we

should be celebrating the

5:17:005:17:03

achievements of this unique club, we

are here because of a deep concern

5:17:035:17:08

for its immediate future. What is

disappointing is that those concerns

5:17:085:17:13

almost entirely operate outside of

the club's management control and on

5:17:135:17:16

field performance, instead,

involving the intersection of land

5:17:165:17:21

ownership, planning consent and the

issue of community regeneration.

5:17:215:17:23

Quite frankly, it is turned into an

utter mess. On the one hand, we have

5:17:235:17:31

Meadow partners, the owners of

Champion Hill and plans to develop

5:17:315:17:34

the site, and Southwark Council, on

the other side, who have not

5:17:345:17:37

accepted the planning permission for

reasons best line by them, it is not

5:17:375:17:43

for me to take sides in the planning

dispute but it is hugely

5:17:435:17:46

disappointing in this instance, it

is the football club stuck in the

5:17:465:17:49

middle and them and the fans who are

the victims of all of this, that is

5:17:495:17:54

not right, football clubs remain a

matter of great importance to local

5:17:545:17:57

communities and we should never

underestimate their value, every

5:17:575:18:00

care must be taken by their owners

and stakeholders to safeguard their

5:18:005:18:07

term future. It is a special place

that they hold communities and the

5:18:075:18:11

need to preserve them at all costs

which I would like to focus my

5:18:115:18:14

attention on today, first, in regard

to Dulwich Hamlet, Southwark Council

5:18:145:18:20

have asked for negotiations to begin

you with Meadow over the side, those

5:18:205:18:25

negotiations must ensure that the

needs of the club are protected,

5:18:255:18:27

should these negotiations fail, and

it is quite clear that they remain

5:18:275:18:31

something of an empathic and then I

will look to find and appoint an

5:18:315:18:36

independent mediator, who can

facilitate the constructive talks

5:18:365:18:40

needed between all parties and in

the process help secure a future for

5:18:405:18:45

this well supported community club

for many years to come. I appreciate

5:18:455:18:49

Dulwich Hamlet is not the only

football club to have suffered as a

5:18:495:18:52

result of island or stadium

development dispute, we need to

5:18:525:18:56

learn lessons from this dispute,

where there is separation in the

5:18:565:19:00

ownership of the club to that of the

stadium, without pre-empting this,

5:19:005:19:04

one lesson, clubs must look at

Robert contractual agreements with

5:19:045:19:09

owners, to make the roles and

responsibilities transparent and

5:19:095:19:13

sustainable, I will be sitting down

with the Football Association to

5:19:135:19:16

ascertain what further steps they

can take to help member clubs engage

5:19:165:19:20

in similar situations and prevent

further breakdowns between club and

5:19:205:19:24

landowners. I recommend the FA begin

by speaking to the fan organisation

5:19:245:19:30

supporters direct, showing an

interest in carrying out a review

5:19:305:19:33

into the East End to which Opel

Stadiums in the English league

5:19:335:19:36

system are separated from the

ownership of their clubs, who are

5:19:365:19:39

primary users. -- to which football

stadiums. With better information of

5:19:395:19:50

the risks, fans can ask the right

questions of the right people at

5:19:505:19:54

regular intervals, this approach

fits with the government worked with

5:19:545:19:58

fine organisations and the football

authorities of recent years, to help

5:19:585:20:03

strengthen ownership and engagement

and with regard to what was put

5:20:035:20:06

forward, will almost certainly put

forward the protection of football

5:20:065:20:14

stadiums by local council, and I

will take further action to speak

5:20:145:20:17

with colleagues. To see how they can

engage in this process and follow up

5:20:175:20:23

on the point that was made about

trademarks and I will write to her

5:20:235:20:27

subsequent to that. The football

authorities have done much work on

5:20:275:20:30

regulations around owners and

directors, it may be that regulation

5:20:305:20:33

in place for football ground

ownership needs to be also

5:20:335:20:37

strengthened, as undeveloped land

increasingly becomes a financial

5:20:375:20:40

asset. Members of this house will

remember Wimbledon's controversial

5:20:405:20:44

move to Milton Keynes although she

is a go, and in's stands is a

5:20:445:20:48

reminder of what can happen when

dispute over stadium can result in a

5:20:485:20:55

loss of a club to its community, but

rules were strengthened, which now

5:20:555:20:58

ensure that plans are in place for

clubs to remain in towns and cities

5:20:585:21:03

that their their name, the current

and frustrating events at Dulwich

5:21:035:21:06

Hamlet are a prompt for proper

consideration of the regulations

5:21:065:21:09

that exist in relation to stadium

ownership and encompass better

5:21:095:21:12

protection of all clubs. In the

meantime, the immediate priority is

5:21:125:21:17

for Dulwich Hamlet to fulfil its

fixtures for the remainder of the

5:21:175:21:21

season, and my personal thanks go to

tooting and for the offer to ground

5:21:215:21:24

share. I fully expect all parties to

sit down and find a way to settle

5:21:245:21:32

this, which has the football club as

its primary consideration, I urge

5:21:325:21:36

all parties to work to a solution

and if they need someone to mediate

5:21:365:21:39

and adjudicate, I will find someone.

I hope it does not come to that and

5:21:395:21:44

a solution can be found by the start

of next season. In the meantime, I

5:21:445:21:49

wish the club and its supporters for

the rest of the season the very

5:21:495:21:54

best, and thank the honourable lady

for her excellent advocacy, on

5:21:545:21:57

behalf of the local club and the

fans.

Order, order, the eyes have

5:21:575:22:14

it, the adjournment.

5:22:145:22:25