Browse content similar to 16/03/2018. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Order, order. The motion is that
this house to sit in private, As | 0:00:21 | 0:00:30 | |
many as are of the opinion, say
"aye". To the contrary, "no". The | 0:00:30 | 0:00:35 | |
ayes have it -- decision, clear the
lobby. | 0:00:35 | 0:00:52 | |
The motion is that this house do sit
in private. As many as are of the | 0:02:32 | 0:02:38 | |
opinion, say "aye". To the contrary,
"no".. Tellers for the ayes... | 0:02:38 | 0:02:54 | |
Please investigate the delay in the
aye lobby, which I have reason to | 0:15:42 | 0:15:45 | |
believe is not heavily populated. | 0:15:45 | 0:15:51 | |
Order, order. The ayes to the left,
one. The noes to the right, 114 the | 0:16:11 | 0:16:32 | |
ayes to the left, one. The noes to
the right, 114. So the Noes have it. | 0:16:32 | 0:16:40 | |
We will now proceed to read the
orders of the day. Unpaid Trial Work | 0:16:40 | 0:16:48 | |
Periods (Prohibition) Bill, second
reading. Mr and spend and McNeill. I | 0:16:48 | 0:16:58 | |
beg that the aye Bill now be read
for a second time. I found out from | 0:16:58 | 0:17:05 | |
the House of Commons rivalling
Philipp library the other day that | 0:17:05 | 0:17:11 | |
there is a shortage of welders in
the UK. Please bear with me. I met | 0:17:11 | 0:17:17 | |
an apprentice welder at the other
day, a 19-year-old who lives in | 0:17:17 | 0:17:24 | |
Canterbury Kent. A beautiful
historic town is Canterbury, I once | 0:17:24 | 0:17:28 | |
visited it and can attest to that.
This will then apprentice is doing | 0:17:28 | 0:17:32 | |
very well in college, and spends a
day every week in Dover with a | 0:17:32 | 0:17:36 | |
welding company. He is a focused
young man, he is motivated, he is | 0:17:36 | 0:17:44 | |
certainly looking forward to the
future. He is an asset to the | 0:17:44 | 0:17:47 | |
community, and an asset to his
neighbours, a burden on the body. He | 0:17:47 | 0:17:54 | |
has also multilingual, he speaks
four languages very efficiently. I | 0:17:54 | 0:17:58 | |
am not sure that is normal for
welders. I know at several welders | 0:17:58 | 0:18:13 | |
who can speak of least two language
is. He has got a great future ahead | 0:18:13 | 0:18:17 | |
of him, especially for the average
age of welders in the UK being 55. | 0:18:17 | 0:18:24 | |
We have a chronic shortage of skills
in the UK, particularly in welding. | 0:18:24 | 0:18:31 | |
This young man is a fascinating back
story. His journey to Canterbury was | 0:18:31 | 0:18:34 | |
a long one. He was previously a
refugee, having escaped Eritrea at | 0:18:34 | 0:18:42 | |
the age of 16 to avoid conscription
and the brutal military, and moved | 0:18:42 | 0:18:48 | |
through the Sahara, a fortnight in a
lorry and a fortnight in a pick-up | 0:18:48 | 0:18:54 | |
truck to Tripoli in Libya. He told
me that if anybody filled out -- | 0:18:54 | 0:19:02 | |
fell out of the pick-up truck, you
would have been left behind, and to | 0:19:02 | 0:19:06 | |
be left behind Anisa have a desert,
the prognosis would not be great. He | 0:19:06 | 0:19:14 | |
mentioned that some bad things
happened to girls, and I will leave | 0:19:14 | 0:19:18 | |
that they are. From Tripoli, he
boarded a boat. The former Glenwood | 0:19:18 | 0:19:27 | |
is he speaks, one is English, and is
also fluent in Arabic, Aramaic and | 0:19:27 | 0:19:36 | |
his native tongue. They sailed two
days from Libya before being picked | 0:19:36 | 0:19:40 | |
up by a bigger boat, and Italian
navy ship which took them happily to | 0:19:40 | 0:19:49 | |
Italy. He has also picked up two
words of another language. Everybody | 0:19:49 | 0:19:56 | |
was very happy when they arrived in
Italy after crossing the Sahara and | 0:19:56 | 0:20:01 | |
the Mediterranean, they were taken
to a reception centre and given | 0:20:01 | 0:20:04 | |
plenty of food. That was at least
the first part of his journey. From | 0:20:04 | 0:20:10 | |
the reception centre, he then
travelled to Rome, and spent two | 0:20:10 | 0:20:13 | |
weeks living at a railway station,
before moving through France to the | 0:20:13 | 0:20:22 | |
famous Calais Jungle. He lived there
with other Eritreans for a while. He | 0:20:22 | 0:20:27 | |
told me that there could be tensions
between different groups and the | 0:20:27 | 0:20:29 | |
Jungle. Obviously people would be
stressed in that situation. Thank | 0:20:29 | 0:20:36 | |
you for the story about the
remarkable young man. It amazed me | 0:20:36 | 0:20:42 | |
of a young woman I worked with
nearly a decade ago who was | 0:20:42 | 0:20:46 | |
separated from her mother on her
journey here, and his mother sadly | 0:20:46 | 0:20:49 | |
died before she could see her again.
Does he agree with me that these | 0:20:49 | 0:20:53 | |
incredible young people deserve so
much better than these avoidable | 0:20:53 | 0:20:59 | |
rules that caused so much human
misery, and would he urge other | 0:20:59 | 0:21:02 | |
members of the House when they think
about how they are going to vote | 0:21:02 | 0:21:06 | |
today, to think about those young
people and do the right thing? I | 0:21:06 | 0:21:10 | |
thank the Honourable lady for her
intervention. She's simply sums up | 0:21:10 | 0:21:14 | |
what I have put together in a rather
large speech. -- succinctly sums up. | 0:21:14 | 0:21:21 | |
I expect a number of members will
want to make interventions, which is | 0:21:21 | 0:21:25 | |
welcome, because points like that
are welcome. Eventually, he made it | 0:21:25 | 0:21:29 | |
across the English Channel, in the
back of a refrigerated lorry. Things | 0:21:29 | 0:21:34 | |
were fine until somebody switched
off the exaggeration system, and | 0:21:34 | 0:21:38 | |
being in an unsolicited tight space
for 24 people got very hot. | 0:21:38 | 0:21:47 | |
Eventually, one of them contacted
the emergency services. They were | 0:21:47 | 0:21:51 | |
located by the GPS system on the
mobile phone. In December 2016, they | 0:21:51 | 0:21:55 | |
made the news. Luckily, none of them
were in any way badly injured or | 0:21:55 | 0:22:03 | |
medically affected by that
experience. They were then taken to | 0:22:03 | 0:22:07 | |
a reception centre in Kent. Before
he found his way to Canterbury, | 0:22:07 | 0:22:11 | |
where he lived in communal
accommodation with other refugees. | 0:22:11 | 0:22:15 | |
Over time in Canterbury, some people
volunteered to help with the | 0:22:15 | 0:22:18 | |
refugees at a refugee charity there,
and they got to know him. He now | 0:22:18 | 0:22:24 | |
lives with one of them. It seems
that Canterbury is quite the place, | 0:22:24 | 0:22:27 | |
it is not the stereotype that is
given by many in the newspapers of | 0:22:27 | 0:22:33 | |
people struggling and complaining
about migrants and refugees. In | 0:22:33 | 0:22:37 | |
Canterbury, people seem to be very
welcoming. There is a big Eritreans | 0:22:37 | 0:22:40 | |
community encountered very, which is
where he has gravitated to, and | 0:22:40 | 0:22:45 | |
Canterbury can really be quite proud
of the way it has treated. My | 0:22:45 | 0:22:52 | |
honourable friend makes an
exceptionally powerful and | 0:22:52 | 0:22:56 | |
compelling speech. Does he agree
with me that his friend is one in a | 0:22:56 | 0:23:00 | |
long line of refugees from places
like Germany, Hungary, Iraq, who | 0:23:00 | 0:23:05 | |
have made a significant economic
contribution and other conservation | 0:23:05 | 0:23:08 | |
is to society across the UK?
Absolutely correct, and | 0:23:08 | 0:23:14 | |
unfortunately some people look at
this as being pounds, shillings and | 0:23:14 | 0:23:18 | |
pence. We should certainly look at
the humanity first. Was 19 and has | 0:23:18 | 0:23:23 | |
viable ambition, he will certainly
achieve a lot more than he has so | 0:23:23 | 0:23:28 | |
far. Is it not the case that we need
to focus on our humanity? I | 0:23:28 | 0:23:36 | |
presented a petition from two of my
primary schools where they had done | 0:23:36 | 0:23:40 | |
a project putting themselves in the
position of child refugees. They | 0:23:40 | 0:23:46 | |
have drawn little suitcases with
what they would take, what was most | 0:23:46 | 0:23:49 | |
precious to them, and the thing that
struck me was that in every suitcase | 0:23:49 | 0:23:53 | |
was a photograph of their family. We
should be doing the same as them, | 0:23:53 | 0:23:57 | |
and if we are a bit too old to
imagine ourselves as children, can | 0:23:57 | 0:24:01 | |
we imagine the help and support we
wish others would give our children | 0:24:01 | 0:24:07 | |
in these circumstances? Again, the
honourable lady makes a very | 0:24:07 | 0:24:12 | |
compelling point. If we look back at
our own histories, my own background | 0:24:12 | 0:24:18 | |
is how one Scottish and Ireland, and
certainly the last century, my | 0:24:18 | 0:24:22 | |
people have been in need of help
when it moved across areas of the | 0:24:22 | 0:24:28 | |
world. I think the people of
Canterbury can hold their heads up | 0:24:28 | 0:24:33 | |
high. I just want to thank
information in my constituency -- | 0:24:33 | 0:24:42 | |
thank information in my fantastic
constituency. She is very welcome, | 0:24:42 | 0:24:48 | |
and can intervene on any further
mention of Canterbury as she | 0:24:48 | 0:24:50 | |
chooses. I was also given a blog
from one corner of the United | 0:24:50 | 0:24:57 | |
Kingdom, and this is the experience
of refugees in not just the United | 0:24:57 | 0:25:03 | |
Kingdom but other places, when you
get beyond the headlines and down to | 0:25:03 | 0:25:09 | |
people are, as the honourable lady
from Central Ayrshire side, it comes | 0:25:09 | 0:25:14 | |
to common humanity. In my own
constituency... I am thankful for | 0:25:14 | 0:25:29 | |
him given me. I would like to
congratulate him not only on this | 0:25:29 | 0:25:31 | |
Bill but also his powerful speech.
The agree with me that the keyword | 0:25:31 | 0:25:37 | |
is refugee, and that people forget
what and who a refugee is? It is | 0:25:37 | 0:25:42 | |
somebody fleeing a place they love,
their home, they do not want to | 0:25:42 | 0:25:46 | |
leave, but circumstances that we
cannot even begin to imagine mean | 0:25:46 | 0:25:51 | |
that they literally grasped the
first things that come to hand, and | 0:25:51 | 0:25:54 | |
they flee their home, looking for a
place of refuge. The honourable lady | 0:25:54 | 0:26:01 | |
is correct, and I will later quote
from one of our colleagues, the | 0:26:01 | 0:26:05 | |
member from Dundee West in the
debate on the 22nd of February, | 0:26:05 | 0:26:08 | |
which he says that the point of
being a refugee should be | 0:26:08 | 0:26:13 | |
remembered, why people are
travelling in that situation. I | 0:26:13 | 0:26:15 | |
thank her for her support on the
Bill, and also her colleague from | 0:26:15 | 0:26:21 | |
Bromley and Chislehurst, sitting
alongside my distant cousin, I | 0:26:21 | 0:26:23 | |
think. I will leave that, I do not
want to want in any more trouble! | 0:26:23 | 0:26:42 | |
Following what the right honourable
lady said opposite, that if the | 0:26:42 | 0:26:46 | |
Government today said that this bill
was wrong because it would act as a | 0:26:46 | 0:26:51 | |
pool factor, is it not true that it
is a push factor. People are fleeing | 0:26:51 | 0:26:57 | |
appalling conditions, and if we hear
from the Treasury banks the idea | 0:26:57 | 0:27:01 | |
that this bill would create a pool
factor, I think that we should vote | 0:27:01 | 0:27:06 | |
against the Government just on that
reason alone. We need to support | 0:27:06 | 0:27:10 | |
these people who are fleeing
appalling conditions. The honourable | 0:27:10 | 0:27:15 | |
gentleman is absolutely right, the
blog that I have seen under the name | 0:27:15 | 0:27:18 | |
of the Government,... Hopefully the
Government will think again over the | 0:27:18 | 0:27:27 | |
worst they have chosen, because I
think that the member for Central | 0:27:27 | 0:27:35 | |
Ayrshire... I thank the honourable
member for giving way, and may I | 0:27:35 | 0:27:40 | |
congratulate him on bringing this
important bill forward. Would he | 0:27:40 | 0:27:43 | |
agree that worse governments are
often constrained because they think | 0:27:43 | 0:27:47 | |
that the public are hostile to
reunions and immigrants, the reality | 0:27:47 | 0:27:52 | |
is that once the public know the
details, of the circumstances in | 0:27:52 | 0:27:56 | |
which the individuals concerned are
fleeing, then they are in fact a | 0:27:56 | 0:28:00 | |
very positive about this, the run
many examples of this in Liverpool, | 0:28:00 | 0:28:05 | |
when there have been threats at
times to remove people, the public | 0:28:05 | 0:28:08 | |
have rallied round those refugees. I
thank the honourable lady for a | 0:28:08 | 0:28:15 | |
stellar point, that is correct. We
know that from our own experience in | 0:28:15 | 0:28:18 | |
here. When we start understanding,
we changed our minds about things, | 0:28:18 | 0:28:22 | |
and other people do the same. Can I
congratulate my fellow island MP for | 0:28:22 | 0:28:29 | |
bringing this bill forward. The
important point that he made, and | 0:28:29 | 0:28:34 | |
used a very powerful word,
motivation. Those of us that have | 0:28:34 | 0:28:38 | |
seen refugees either in camps, or in
processing, without families, UCB | 0:28:38 | 0:28:42 | |
loneliness at .net this is, but when
you see them together -- you see the | 0:28:42 | 0:28:48 | |
loneliness at that -based is --
etched on their faces. When I was | 0:28:48 | 0:28:57 | |
listening to the story on Wednesday,
then, I was uncertain in my mind | 0:28:57 | 0:29:02 | |
that I wouldn't have had the
motivation at my age or any other | 0:29:02 | 0:29:05 | |
age to go over the Sahara for four
weeks into Mac different transport, | 0:29:05 | 0:29:10 | |
and then to go into Mac different
boats. I can recall the first time I | 0:29:10 | 0:29:19 | |
was on about. It certainly wasn't it
doesn't experience. -- a pleasant | 0:29:19 | 0:29:26 | |
experience. I am grateful for giving
way, and there is evidence that | 0:29:26 | 0:29:38 | |
diasporas in all parts of countries
and chambers, but every member of | 0:29:38 | 0:29:47 | |
this house has had the fortune to go
to and institution of high | 0:29:47 | 0:29:52 | |
education. Most of our lives have
been enriched by academics who | 0:29:52 | 0:30:05 | |
arrived as refugees, either from the
Nazis or elsewhere, but we have all | 0:30:05 | 0:30:11 | |
benefited directly or indirectly. My
honourable cousin makes a fantastic | 0:30:11 | 0:30:14 | |
point, and it goes to show that we
have to see this in | 0:30:14 | 0:30:19 | |
multi-dimensions, because seeing
somebody as just a refugee in here | 0:30:19 | 0:30:24 | |
and now, not as an academic or a
welder leaves us in a narrow path. | 0:30:24 | 0:30:34 | |
May I congratulate my honourable
friend, who mentioned the correction | 0:30:34 | 0:30:37 | |
between his own constituency --
connection between his own | 0:30:37 | 0:30:43 | |
constituency and that in Ireland.
There are lessons to be learned well | 0:30:43 | 0:30:48 | |
over the last two and a half years
we have accepted 40 refugees are | 0:30:48 | 0:30:53 | |
families who are adding to the
diversity and the economy and the | 0:30:53 | 0:30:57 | |
long-term sustainability of the
entire UK. This is a positive thing, | 0:30:57 | 0:31:02 | |
and members opposite should vote for
it. I absolutely agree, and I would | 0:31:02 | 0:31:06 | |
like to say that mention of
Canterbury by the SNP is by no way a | 0:31:06 | 0:31:12 | |
politically aggressive move. As
further two points that have been | 0:31:12 | 0:31:21 | |
made elsewhere this morning, about
the fact that it has widespread | 0:31:21 | 0:31:25 | |
support throughout our communities,
and would he join me in | 0:31:25 | 0:31:29 | |
congratulating the inspirational
young people of the rights | 0:31:29 | 0:31:33 | |
respecting group of Hermitage
Academy in Helensburgh who have been | 0:31:33 | 0:31:38 | |
campaigning on and gathering
petitions on this issue for months | 0:31:38 | 0:31:40 | |
now, and there is edition numbers
1100 people in their towns of | 0:31:40 | 0:31:44 | |
Helensburgh, and when major liver
that petition to Parliament as they | 0:31:44 | 0:31:49 | |
will do soon, if possible, will he
join me and meet the inspirational | 0:31:49 | 0:31:53 | |
young group and welcome them to this
place. I would be very glad... | 0:31:53 | 0:31:58 | |
Privileged in fact to meet the young
people of Hermitage Academy, because | 0:31:58 | 0:32:02 | |
I think that the steps and they
thinking that they have done... My | 0:32:02 | 0:32:09 | |
final mention of Canterbury, just to
say that Johannes is getting on well | 0:32:09 | 0:32:14 | |
with life in Canterbury, he has got
a good group of friends there, he | 0:32:14 | 0:32:17 | |
supports Manchester United, and I
shall leave that what it is. | 0:32:17 | 0:32:23 | |
LAUGHTER
If I could make some progress and I | 0:32:23 | 0:32:25 | |
would give way. Moving from
Canterbury to somewhere with an | 0:32:25 | 0:32:35 | |
easier pronunciation, to my
constituency, we have a good fortune | 0:32:35 | 0:32:40 | |
to have a young man that he was 17
who has written a blog that has come | 0:32:40 | 0:32:43 | |
to my attention. I think it is worth
reading out and giving boys, because | 0:32:43 | 0:32:49 | |
he is reading in a different forum.
"From The time when I was told I was | 0:32:49 | 0:32:54 | |
to travel to Stornoway, the first
thing that into my mind was, where | 0:32:54 | 0:32:56 | |
is that? It is in Scotland. All I
know about Scotland is that it is a | 0:32:56 | 0:33:01 | |
part of the UK, and it is cold
there. I didn't even think that | 0:33:01 | 0:33:07 | |
Stornoway was on an island in the
middle of the athletic. Loads of | 0:33:07 | 0:33:11 | |
things that are coming to me, bad
ideas, how would people be there? | 0:33:11 | 0:33:15 | |
How would the people look like? For
me, it was then unknown place. I was | 0:33:15 | 0:33:21 | |
worried about the language. I would
he have some England, -- English, | 0:33:21 | 0:33:25 | |
and I could improve by practising.
The most important thing that I was | 0:33:25 | 0:33:29 | |
the key about is how that people
would deal with my family, | 0:33:29 | 0:33:33 | |
specifically the women in my family
who wear the hijab, and it is | 0:33:33 | 0:33:37 | |
something safer the people where I
am going to. What I thought about | 0:33:37 | 0:33:41 | |
here is that everybody is looking
after themselves, nobody cares about | 0:33:41 | 0:33:45 | |
the rest, I was completely wrong.
Now I have got to say sorry for how | 0:33:45 | 0:33:49 | |
I was thinking about them. The thing
that surprises me most, | 0:33:49 | 0:34:02 | |
is the charity shops, event and even
a small shops, there is at least one | 0:34:09 | 0:34:12 | |
charity box. Volunteers, people here
deal with volunteering as part of | 0:34:12 | 0:34:15 | |
their duties, for a while I thought
that they got paid for that, but all | 0:34:15 | 0:34:18 | |
I know, it is a priority for them. I
ask myself, how do they do this, the | 0:34:18 | 0:34:21 | |
answer is that they feel for each
other, they love to do this, and | 0:34:21 | 0:34:24 | |
they love to say thank you. In
general, I like it here, it is a | 0:34:24 | 0:34:27 | |
island in the middle of the sea, but
you feel the life here. You can be | 0:34:27 | 0:34:30 | |
like anybody here. What can you do
more than an old man asking you | 0:34:30 | 0:34:33 | |
where you are from and after you
answer, he starts telling you, you | 0:34:33 | 0:34:35 | |
are very welcome in my city, we are
sorry about what is happening there. | 0:34:35 | 0:34:38 | |
What can I do for you? Please ask
for help when you need it. | 0:34:38 | 0:34:42 | |
Unfortunately, I didn't realise
that, but humanity first,... " we | 0:34:42 | 0:34:48 | |
have seen that from Canterbury, we
have seen that from a number of | 0:34:48 | 0:34:53 | |
places. I thank my honourable friend
for giving way, I commend him for | 0:34:53 | 0:34:58 | |
bringing this bill today has. I am
incredibly proud that I have been | 0:34:58 | 0:35:04 | |
able to welcome a number of refugee
families from Syria, but in my -- | 0:35:04 | 0:35:11 | |
can my honourable friend provides
reassurance to some of those who | 0:35:11 | 0:35:13 | |
have had to feed violence from some
close family members, that his bill | 0:35:13 | 0:35:18 | |
will not have an impact on their
safety? Absolutely not, because this | 0:35:18 | 0:35:21 | |
bill is enabling averages here to
sponsor the... They will be choosing | 0:35:21 | 0:35:26 | |
who will... I am grateful to the
honourable member for giving way. | 0:35:26 | 0:35:35 | |
This brought the member of --
element of humanity into this. I | 0:35:35 | 0:35:40 | |
know that certainly listening to the
words of his constituent, and how he | 0:35:40 | 0:35:47 | |
felt in anticipation of his first
visit to Stornoway, I have got to | 0:35:47 | 0:35:50 | |
say, the first time I went to
Stornoway, I felt much the same. | 0:35:50 | 0:35:54 | |
But, for the most part my misgivings
were ill founded. | 0:35:54 | 0:35:56 | |
LAUGHTER
I think, the significance of the | 0:35:56 | 0:36:03 | |
stories that we were hearing, and I
have similar expresses from my own | 0:36:03 | 0:36:08 | |
consistency, should surely give some
succour to those who are thinking | 0:36:08 | 0:36:14 | |
about supporting this bill, but are
concerned about how it will be | 0:36:14 | 0:36:19 | |
scene. Clearly the message is that
there is a positive political | 0:36:19 | 0:36:25 | |
advantage to supporting this bill.
Nobody should be afraid of it. | 0:36:25 | 0:36:29 | |
Absolutely correct. I hope that we
see the honourable member at | 0:36:29 | 0:36:33 | |
Stornoway later. Emburey grateful to
the honourable gentleman and can I | 0:36:33 | 0:36:41 | |
congratulate him. Will you join with
me and congratulate... Largest | 0:36:41 | 0:36:52 | |
refugees by a country mile in our
country. Very pleased to thank that | 0:36:52 | 0:36:59 | |
council and congratulated. And it
brings me onto Aberdeenshire Council | 0:36:59 | 0:37:02 | |
that I was going to mention, as
well. Apparently there are a of | 0:37:02 | 0:37:05 | |
Syrians watching the debate in
Aberdeenshire, today. They are | 0:37:05 | 0:37:10 | |
watching it I am told on Facebook
with their hearts in their mouths. | 0:37:10 | 0:37:14 | |
Aberdeenshire Council needs to be
congratulated. Thank you to the Tory | 0:37:14 | 0:37:23 | |
councillors of Aberdeenshire
Council, and the Labour councillors | 0:37:23 | 0:37:26 | |
of Aberdeenshire Council, the
Liberals, Greens, independent and | 0:37:26 | 0:37:29 | |
the SNP councillors of Aberdeenshire
Council, and they have all united | 0:37:29 | 0:37:34 | |
today to support this bill. The
thing about this bill is that it | 0:37:34 | 0:37:37 | |
could have been introduced by any
member in this house. It is a bill | 0:37:37 | 0:37:41 | |
that is conceived by a partnership
of good Samaritan organisations, the | 0:37:41 | 0:37:46 | |
British Red Cross, Oxfam, the
refugee Council, the UNHCR, and | 0:37:46 | 0:37:50 | |
amnesty to name but some. This bill
has the support of MPs from seven | 0:37:50 | 0:37:56 | |
political parties. Conservatives,
labour, SNP, DUP, liberal, green. -- | 0:37:56 | 0:38:04 | |
and paid country. This shouldn't be
a bill of party politics. This is | 0:38:04 | 0:38:12 | |
not a bill about red, blue, yellow,
it is about compassion and at the | 0:38:12 | 0:38:17 | |
honourable member for Orkney and
Shetland said just a few minute ago, | 0:38:17 | 0:38:25 | |
humanity. Can I say that this debate
comes 46 years after my wife and I | 0:38:25 | 0:38:38 | |
took a family into our house, and we
just had a get-together. What I have | 0:38:38 | 0:38:43 | |
not heard from him, or the good
Samaritan organisations, is what | 0:38:43 | 0:38:47 | |
numbers of people would be eligible
under this bill, who are not already | 0:38:47 | 0:38:50 | |
eligible. The honourable member
asked a good question, and from the | 0:38:50 | 0:38:57 | |
information that I have directly, a
number of years ago, it would have | 0:38:57 | 0:39:02 | |
been about 400, but it is probably
800 to 1000 at the moment you would | 0:39:02 | 0:39:06 | |
be helped. It is not a huge number,
but I thank him and commend him for | 0:39:06 | 0:39:12 | |
what he has done with refugees in
the past, and he sees the benefit of | 0:39:12 | 0:39:16 | |
that today in his own personal life,
and there are a number of examples | 0:39:16 | 0:39:21 | |
of that. Indeed, this bill has taken
the UK into line with the rest of | 0:39:21 | 0:39:26 | |
Europe. It has only brought it in
line. If I have only criticisms, my | 0:39:26 | 0:39:33 | |
bill is so small and unspectacular.
So I'm spectacular that we should | 0:39:33 | 0:39:37 | |
have no pub at all and passing this
bill. You would have to have a very | 0:39:37 | 0:39:43 | |
hard heart not to ensure these very
limited measures I ask for, today, | 0:39:43 | 0:39:49 | |
do not become law. Can I say how
grateful I am for the support of | 0:39:49 | 0:39:53 | |
people have done well in their
lives, but yet have made it their | 0:39:53 | 0:39:56 | |
concern and business to use their
position to help the least well off | 0:39:56 | 0:40:00 | |
in the world. Some of these are
celebrities are actors and | 0:40:00 | 0:40:05 | |
actresses, pop stars who have used
their position to highlight the bill | 0:40:05 | 0:40:07 | |
and give it their time, very freely
indeed. Thank you for giving way, | 0:40:07 | 0:40:15 | |
and May I congratulate him on the
powerful speech that he has making, | 0:40:15 | 0:40:18 | |
and the amount of support he has
gathered. In my Livingston | 0:40:18 | 0:40:24 | |
constituency, people have come and
made their home, set up a business | 0:40:24 | 0:40:27 | |
battery claims leather sofas into
shoes and bags, and is now | 0:40:27 | 0:40:33 | |
supporting and employing to disabled
people in the West Lothian and | 0:40:33 | 0:40:38 | |
Livingston area. That is exactly the
kind of people that we want to | 0:40:38 | 0:40:42 | |
welcome into our community, who come
and make the fabric of our society | 0:40:42 | 0:40:46 | |
richer. Absolutely. And it is a lost
of the host countries as they have | 0:40:46 | 0:40:50 | |
had -- it is the loss of the host
countries that have had to -- that | 0:40:50 | 0:40:56 | |
they have had to flee. It is mostly
decent members of the public who | 0:40:56 | 0:40:59 | |
have been writing, you can conceive
of the enormity of refugees, of | 0:40:59 | 0:41:04 | |
people fleeing to safety have had to
go through, and they're in their | 0:41:04 | 0:41:08 | |
droves have been very supportive.
Often, as members of Parliament, we | 0:41:08 | 0:41:12 | |
have got to see the issues that it
requires to put us in their shoes, | 0:41:12 | 0:41:15 | |
of physics this is quite dissimilar
to our own. That but our abilities | 0:41:15 | 0:41:19 | |
to emphasise at great -- empathised
at great stretch. How can we begin | 0:41:19 | 0:41:29 | |
to know what it is like to be a
refugee who has fled from Syria, | 0:41:29 | 0:41:37 | |
crossed seas, and then faced a
gruelling adversarial asylum system? | 0:41:37 | 0:41:43 | |
How can we feel what it is like to
be a 17-year-old in Eritrea, who had | 0:41:43 | 0:41:48 | |
escaped because he did not want to
be murdered like his brother because | 0:41:48 | 0:41:51 | |
he did not want to be forcibly
conscripted indefinite and into the | 0:41:51 | 0:41:55 | |
army. I'd don't know, and I don't
want to know, and I don't want many | 0:41:55 | 0:41:59 | |
other people to know about this in
future. | 0:41:59 | 0:42:05 | |
If you to support the honourable
member's Bill wholeheartedly. Many | 0:42:06 | 0:42:10 | |
of my constituents in Cardiff
Central, have written to me from all | 0:42:10 | 0:42:18 | |
persuasions backing this. I do not
have any concerns about the spill, | 0:42:18 | 0:42:21 | |
and I hope that of any members do,
the ball with those until committee | 0:42:21 | 0:42:26 | |
stage and passes Bill today. I think
the honourable lady makes a | 0:42:26 | 0:42:29 | |
fantastic point, because it is to
the committee stage that people | 0:42:29 | 0:42:33 | |
should take their concerns. The
concerns will be minor, and if they | 0:42:33 | 0:42:38 | |
are in any way Major, they can be
addressed properly at Amity stage. I | 0:42:38 | 0:42:44 | |
thank the honourable member for
giving way, he is making many valid | 0:42:44 | 0:42:50 | |
points and I have been lobbied on
this Bill by constituents like other | 0:42:50 | 0:42:53 | |
members in this House, but both in
favour and against. I think it is in | 0:42:53 | 0:42:59 | |
bonds to keep the right tone, and
accusing people of having an empathy | 0:42:59 | 0:43:03 | |
bypass because they have a different
belief of the best way of helping | 0:43:03 | 0:43:06 | |
people is something we can probably
avoid in this debate. Let's hope we | 0:43:06 | 0:43:13 | |
see that and goal coming to
fruition, and I look forward to | 0:43:13 | 0:43:18 | |
seeing the honourable gentleman with
others in the lobbies at some stage | 0:43:18 | 0:43:20 | |
today. There can indeed be many ways
of approaching things, and all | 0:43:20 | 0:43:26 | |
others need to learn a bit more
about the subjects in all manner | 0:43:26 | 0:43:30 | |
around this. But certainly I think
it is very difficult to be arguing | 0:43:30 | 0:43:36 | |
against enabling people to read a
refugee camp to join family and | 0:43:36 | 0:43:40 | |
relatives. Can I firstly just
congratulate you for bringing this | 0:43:40 | 0:43:47 | |
Bill? Would he agree with me that,
as one of the wealthiest countries, | 0:43:47 | 0:43:51 | |
we have the capacity to support
these people who are in desperate | 0:43:51 | 0:43:56 | |
need, and what we actually like it
is maybe the political will? This | 0:43:56 | 0:44:01 | |
was demonstrated so well by my
predecessor, who secured the | 0:44:01 | 0:44:05 | |
amendment which forced the
Government to actually allow 3000 | 0:44:05 | 0:44:09 | |
unaccompanied child refugees.
Absolutely, the honourable lady is | 0:44:09 | 0:44:14 | |
correct. We sometimes have a limited
thinking, 3000 people seems like it | 0:44:14 | 0:44:20 | |
a lot. If they were all in my front
room, what would that mean? But in a | 0:44:20 | 0:44:25 | |
country of 65 million people, it is
a drop in the ocean. Given the skill | 0:44:25 | 0:44:29 | |
shortages we have in some people we
could be taking in, it is actually a | 0:44:29 | 0:44:33 | |
narrow interests to do exactly this,
especially in the Reed at a time and | 0:44:33 | 0:44:38 | |
are more refugees in the world at
any time since the Second World War. | 0:44:38 | 0:44:42 | |
How could become behind their lives,
their stories, their tragedies, and | 0:44:42 | 0:44:47 | |
make sense collectively of all those
statistics? It is hard to fathom | 0:44:47 | 0:44:51 | |
when we start to think of numbers.
But today's Bill is not about | 0:44:51 | 0:44:56 | |
refugees or immigration, and anyway
it is not about the war in Syria or | 0:44:56 | 0:45:01 | |
human rights abuses in Eritrea.
First and foremost, this Bill is | 0:45:01 | 0:45:04 | |
about family. It is something each
others will recognise, it is the | 0:45:04 | 0:45:12 | |
photograph in the suitcase the
children thought they would want to | 0:45:12 | 0:45:14 | |
bring with them if they were
refugees. That no matter how much | 0:45:14 | 0:45:18 | |
families argue and disagree with one
another, families belong together, | 0:45:18 | 0:45:22 | |
and they certainly should not be in
a situation where they are forced | 0:45:22 | 0:45:26 | |
apart. This is not an immigration
issue, it is a protection issue, as | 0:45:26 | 0:45:30 | |
the member of Dundee West said in a
debate on Westminster Hall on the | 0:45:30 | 0:45:33 | |
22nd of February. I also
congratulate the honourable member | 0:45:33 | 0:45:39 | |
for bringing this Bill, and I
absolutely support it, as I also | 0:45:39 | 0:45:43 | |
represent a community with many
refugees. Would the member not agree | 0:45:43 | 0:45:49 | |
with me that those of us who have
listened over the years to the | 0:45:49 | 0:45:55 | |
Holocaust memorial events over the
years, and heard the stories of the | 0:45:55 | 0:46:03 | |
now elderly people who came over on
Kinder transport and so on, would he | 0:46:03 | 0:46:12 | |
not agree that those who survived
without their families, how | 0:46:12 | 0:46:15 | |
traumatic that was? And I have also,
and I'm sure he has, too, heard the | 0:46:15 | 0:46:21 | |
stories of those who were able to be
connected with their families or | 0:46:21 | 0:46:25 | |
some family members after the war,
and what a difference that made. And | 0:46:25 | 0:46:30 | |
how can one forget, how can one not
to link those two sets of stories? | 0:46:30 | 0:46:37 | |
The honourable lady is absolutely
correct, and if we look back at | 0:46:37 | 0:46:40 | |
history with the benefit of pounds
-- hindsight, wide and we do more? | 0:46:40 | 0:46:46 | |
There is a bit of nervousness at the
moment of doing, but when it is | 0:46:46 | 0:46:52 | |
done, people are eternally grateful.
Not just those who have been saved, | 0:46:52 | 0:46:55 | |
but those who have done the savings
can look themselves in the mirror | 0:46:55 | 0:46:58 | |
with a lot more pride than they
would otherwise be able to do. This | 0:46:58 | 0:47:02 | |
Bill is about families who have been
torn apart by war and who want to be | 0:47:02 | 0:47:07 | |
reunited, but cannot due to the
current rules. It is about families | 0:47:07 | 0:47:10 | |
facing the decision of whether to
stay separated or to undertake | 0:47:10 | 0:47:16 | |
potentially dangerous journeys
across land, Desert and see to be | 0:47:16 | 0:47:19 | |
together again. Certainly there is
nobody who would want the male | 0:47:19 | 0:47:22 | |
members of their family wanting to
be tempted to go with people | 0:47:22 | 0:47:26 | |
traffickers across the Sahara. I
will give way. Does he recognise | 0:47:26 | 0:47:35 | |
that Unicef report that a majority
of young people that are | 0:47:35 | 0:47:38 | |
unaccompanied child migrants have
been subjected to sexual abuse on | 0:47:38 | 0:47:42 | |
their journey to the UK, and we have
an obligation to support those young | 0:47:42 | 0:47:46 | |
people going through the most
appalling times? The honourable | 0:47:46 | 0:47:50 | |
gentleman is absolutely correct. It
is sort of a judgment call as to how | 0:47:50 | 0:47:56 | |
much we talk about that, because we
know it happens but we know that | 0:47:56 | 0:48:00 | |
many people are watching this
debate, for whom it is maybe a bit | 0:48:00 | 0:48:03 | |
too close to them. But we have got
to bear that in mind when we are | 0:48:03 | 0:48:09 | |
making decisions about refugees as
legislators. Currently, adult | 0:48:09 | 0:48:13 | |
refugees who have been the most is
refugees in the UK are able to | 0:48:13 | 0:48:16 | |
sponsor the -- their spouse or
partner as well as children under | 0:48:16 | 0:48:22 | |
the age of 18 to join them in the
UK, and we have to thanks excessive | 0:48:22 | 0:48:25 | |
Government 's to thank for that. But
that is only one side of the coin, | 0:48:25 | 0:48:37 | |
and those family members are living
an extremely dangerous | 0:48:37 | 0:48:40 | |
circumstances. We are looking to
have the other side of the coin | 0:48:40 | 0:48:43 | |
addressed as well, were under 18 's
can bring in an sponsor family | 0:48:43 | 0:48:51 | |
members and get family members
together in both directions. In | 0:48:51 | 0:48:55 | |
recent weeks, the British Red Cross
has helped two Syrian couples | 0:48:55 | 0:49:00 | |
reunite. Imagine the moment of
elation when the loved ones were | 0:49:00 | 0:49:03 | |
finally reunited in the UK. Just
hours before, they had been | 0:49:03 | 0:49:07 | |
separated by thousands of miles and
hundreds of bombs. Refugee family | 0:49:07 | 0:49:11 | |
reunion is truly a life changing,
and that is why so many refugees and | 0:49:11 | 0:49:16 | |
people who moved to this country
like welders and whatever are now | 0:49:16 | 0:49:20 | |
watching this because it will affect
that a change to their lives. I | 0:49:20 | 0:49:24 | |
wonder if my honourable friend will
share my concern that legal aid is | 0:49:24 | 0:49:28 | |
not available for these cases, and
when changes were brought around to | 0:49:28 | 0:49:32 | |
legal aid, it wasn't a stated there
would be more savings. Would the | 0:49:32 | 0:49:39 | |
half £1 billion there that has been
saved possibly help of some of these | 0:49:39 | 0:49:44 | |
cases? I think the honourable lady
makes a good document. I am here and | 0:49:44 | 0:49:51 | |
there are quite a lot of speakers,
and I know I haven't made a lot of | 0:49:51 | 0:49:54 | |
progress in the last 25 minutes
because I have taken a number of | 0:49:54 | 0:49:58 | |
interventions, so can I appealed to
members if they want to intervene to | 0:49:58 | 0:50:03 | |
do so sparingly? We want to get this
to a close at some point today and | 0:50:03 | 0:50:07 | |
think of other people's business. I
might be a long-lost relative from | 0:50:07 | 0:50:16 | |
Somerset, Mr Speaker. Is it not
right that the Lord Chancellor is | 0:50:16 | 0:50:23 | |
actually undertaking a review of
legal aid reforms, that is going to | 0:50:23 | 0:50:26 | |
include looking at legal aid for
immigration cases? Solas Government | 0:50:26 | 0:50:29 | |
is taking out an bold, this could
well be included in that review. I | 0:50:29 | 0:50:34 | |
think that is great. We know that
there is legal aid available already | 0:50:34 | 0:50:38 | |
in Scotland. And I'm glad to hear
the honourable lady's intervention, | 0:50:38 | 0:50:46 | |
but they are not mutually exquisite
approaches. So therefore, she is | 0:50:46 | 0:50:50 | |
welcoming that she can most
certainly welcome the Bill, I will | 0:50:50 | 0:50:54 | |
personally escorted through the
lobbies later on if need be. They | 0:50:54 | 0:50:59 | |
are's can offer you can't refuse! At
the Leave this Bill is moving loved | 0:50:59 | 0:51:09 | |
ones together. Clause one does
justice. It asks that a statement | 0:51:09 | 0:51:13 | |
changes to immigration rules for
both houses, in response to debates | 0:51:13 | 0:51:23 | |
and family in both places. The Bill
acknowledges that, which is why it | 0:51:23 | 0:51:31 | |
operates in this way. The minister
we say that I'm still attempting to | 0:51:31 | 0:51:35 | |
use primary legislation to amend the
rules, because the honourable lady | 0:51:35 | 0:51:40 | |
will be aware, there is no other way
for a non-minister to effect changes | 0:51:40 | 0:51:43 | |
to those rules. If she would like to
intervene and say that the Bill is | 0:51:43 | 0:51:48 | |
unnecessary, I wouldn't gladly give
way to hear that. -- I would. Clause | 0:51:48 | 0:51:56 | |
one sets out the relationships that
would be covered by refugee family | 0:51:56 | 0:51:59 | |
reunion. It includes those that
already have the right, and expand | 0:51:59 | 0:52:05 | |
that a number of ways. There is a
long list I could put in this Bill. | 0:52:05 | 0:52:08 | |
Right honourable members could have
spent the entire debate thinking of | 0:52:08 | 0:52:13 | |
distant relatives who, if we have
been forced to leave our homes and | 0:52:13 | 0:52:17 | |
communities because of a vicious
deadly conflict, we would like to | 0:52:17 | 0:52:20 | |
think we could bring our relatives
with those to safety. But I have | 0:52:20 | 0:52:26 | |
focused on some of the most
egregious that are not covered by | 0:52:26 | 0:52:28 | |
current rules. Under the current
rules, a parent recognise that a | 0:52:28 | 0:52:33 | |
refugee in the UK can sponsor their
children under the age of 18 to join | 0:52:33 | 0:52:37 | |
them, but of that child has not
turned 18, they are not all | 0:52:37 | 0:52:41 | |
semantically eligible. Mohammed is a
former lawyer from Syria, who was | 0:52:41 | 0:52:46 | |
recognised as a refugee in the UK
after applying for asylum. He | 0:52:46 | 0:52:52 | |
immediately began to apply for a
family reunion so that his wife and | 0:52:52 | 0:52:55 | |
children could live with him and
safety in the United Kingdom. | 0:52:55 | 0:52:59 | |
Devastatingly, the family was forced
to leave their two oldest children | 0:52:59 | 0:53:02 | |
behind because they were operating.
He told the British Red Cross they | 0:53:02 | 0:53:07 | |
are a close family. His little kids
ask every day, what happened? Will | 0:53:07 | 0:53:14 | |
rejoin us? Wenbo we see them's he
has no idea and does not know what | 0:53:14 | 0:53:20 | |
to tell them. The Minister may argue
that the Government has recognised | 0:53:20 | 0:53:24 | |
that children in these circumstances
should be eligible, but the point is | 0:53:24 | 0:53:33 | |
the guide updated in summer 2016
provided clearer direction to the | 0:53:33 | 0:53:36 | |
Home Office than may fall to be
granted Family Reunion in | 0:53:36 | 0:53:42 | |
exceptional circumstances. Out of
that list as children over the age | 0:53:42 | 0:53:46 | |
of 18 still being dependent on their
parents, yet despite those changes, | 0:53:46 | 0:53:50 | |
last year with Anthony first nine
months of 2017, only 49 people were | 0:53:50 | 0:53:57 | |
granted Family Reunion in
exceptional circumstances. My Bill | 0:53:57 | 0:54:00 | |
seeks to move that group of children
into the main body of the rules. If | 0:54:00 | 0:54:04 | |
the Government accept the principle
that these children should be | 0:54:04 | 0:54:07 | |
eligible to be reunited as they do
through the guidance, then I hope | 0:54:07 | 0:54:12 | |
they will support at least that
element of the Bill. I congratulate | 0:54:12 | 0:54:17 | |
him on the Bill today, I support it
wholeheartedly. Vitamins B of a | 0:54:17 | 0:54:20 | |
story I heard from Oxfam and at a
gentleman whose son was left behind | 0:54:20 | 0:54:26 | |
in Turkey while the tyre family was
resettled here in the UK. The sun | 0:54:26 | 0:54:30 | |
was the main breadwinner of that
family. Thus the honourable member | 0:54:30 | 0:54:34 | |
agree that this is helpful for the
families here and helpful for the | 0:54:34 | 0:54:38 | |
integration of the UK's society if
we bring those children home? | 0:54:38 | 0:54:45 | |
Absolutely, everybody is a winner
when this unnecessary bureaucracy is | 0:54:45 | 0:54:49 | |
removed or designs to help people
rather than hinder them. The | 0:54:49 | 0:54:51 | |
honourable lady makes a very good
point. The Government can hopefully | 0:54:51 | 0:54:55 | |
support at least that element of the
Bill, because bringing these young | 0:54:55 | 0:54:59 | |
people family doesn't the rules.
Firstly, it would give those | 0:54:59 | 0:55:03 | |
families applying the reunited more
certainty that they are eligible. | 0:55:03 | 0:55:07 | |
There is no separate family
application form to be reunited | 0:55:07 | 0:55:12 | |
outside the rules. The family then
has to rely on caseworkers seeing | 0:55:12 | 0:55:18 | |
that there are exceptional
circumstances, and applying their | 0:55:18 | 0:55:21 | |
discretion. For those families able
to reunite under the discretionary | 0:55:21 | 0:55:24 | |
element of the rules, there are
further problems when the family | 0:55:24 | 0:55:28 | |
member arrives in the UK. Under the
main Family Reunion rules, family | 0:55:28 | 0:55:33 | |
members coming to the UK get the
same type of leaders they built that | 0:55:33 | 0:55:36 | |
they are joining. This means they
are granted five years leave to stay | 0:55:36 | 0:55:39 | |
in the UK, and are able to access
support to help the family rebuild | 0:55:39 | 0:55:44 | |
their lives together, including
ensuring they have suitable housing | 0:55:44 | 0:55:48 | |
and enough financial assistance to
help them integrate into the new | 0:55:48 | 0:55:50 | |
homes. But for family members
reunited outside the rules, they do | 0:55:50 | 0:55:54 | |
not get the same type of lead. They
will usually be granted 33 months, | 0:55:54 | 0:55:59 | |
and subject to restrictions that
refugee status is not, including not | 0:55:59 | 0:56:05 | |
having the course to public funds.
They will face a longer part of the | 0:56:05 | 0:56:08 | |
settlement from the family members
they are joining, and can find | 0:56:08 | 0:56:12 | |
themselves living in overcrowded
accommodation or can experience | 0:56:12 | 0:56:15 | |
homelessness. So after having credit
Matip back story, the current story | 0:56:15 | 0:56:21 | |
can be quite difficult as well. The
Bill will allow refugee children to | 0:56:21 | 0:56:25 | |
sponsor the closest family members
to join them. Currently, the UK is | 0:56:25 | 0:56:30 | |
one of only two countries in the EU
that does not allow children who | 0:56:30 | 0:56:33 | |
have been recognised as refugees to
have any Family Reunion writes, that | 0:56:33 | 0:56:37 | |
is the crux of the matter that we
have to change. That is a small | 0:56:37 | 0:56:41 | |
piece that this Bill does, and as I
said earlier, we are not doing | 0:56:41 | 0:56:45 | |
enough but at least we are doing
that. While most countries in the EU | 0:56:45 | 0:56:48 | |
are signed up to the family reunion
directive, which grants separated | 0:56:48 | 0:56:55 | |
children Family Reunion writes, the
UK along with Ireland and Denmark | 0:56:55 | 0:56:58 | |
did not opt in to that. But I want
them -- Ireland amended domestic | 0:56:58 | 0:57:06 | |
legislation to allow this, while the
UK did not. Children have therefore | 0:57:06 | 0:57:11 | |
been recognised in the UK Government
as being in need of international | 0:57:11 | 0:57:14 | |
protection, and it has been accepted
it as an safe for them to return | 0:57:14 | 0:57:18 | |
home, but are still kept apart from
their parents. Young boys and girls, | 0:57:18 | 0:57:22 | |
many of them will have faced untold
horrors after fleeing their home, I | 0:57:22 | 0:57:27 | |
left that those who would be best
placed to support them. | 0:57:27 | 0:57:35 | |
I am grateful for you giving way. He
has made a good point, I think he is | 0:57:35 | 0:57:40 | |
saying that every other European
country apart from Denmark believes | 0:57:40 | 0:57:44 | |
that a child should have the right
to come join them, so any argument | 0:57:44 | 0:57:49 | |
that the Government make today, is
an argument that is not accepted in | 0:57:49 | 0:57:53 | |
Germany, is France, Italy, and every
other European country. Why should | 0:57:53 | 0:57:58 | |
those arguments be different for the
UK? Would you like to originate on | 0:57:58 | 0:58:03 | |
that? I think that the honourable
gentleman has raise an important | 0:58:03 | 0:58:08 | |
point. I think there is a feeling
from some, and excused used by some | 0:58:08 | 0:58:13 | |
that this as it passes, will
encourage people to send their | 0:58:13 | 0:58:19 | |
children first. I will deal with
that point later, but if that point | 0:58:19 | 0:58:24 | |
was through, then it would be
happening in those other countries, | 0:58:24 | 0:58:27 | |
that the honourable gentleman
mentions, therefore it is not true | 0:58:27 | 0:58:30 | |
at all. If legal aid was the point,
that all the refugees of England and | 0:58:30 | 0:58:37 | |
Wales would be going to Scotland.
People settle in places for a whole | 0:58:37 | 0:58:41 | |
variety of personal circumstances,
but these things help people settle | 0:58:41 | 0:58:50 | |
and... May I congratulate the
honourable gentleman on an important | 0:58:50 | 0:58:56 | |
speech. Is he also aware that this
issue is being cited in some areas | 0:58:56 | 0:59:01 | |
as being the reason why Italy, and
Greece, are not placing children and | 0:59:01 | 0:59:09 | |
child refugees in the UK as part of
the Dubs Amendment, because they are | 0:59:09 | 0:59:14 | |
concerned that if there were any
other country in Europe, they would | 0:59:14 | 0:59:19 | |
be room reunited with their family,
but in the UK, they would not. | 0:59:19 | 0:59:24 | |
However, there are 240 places
offered by local authorities that | 0:59:24 | 0:59:27 | |
are empty as a result, and we are
not filling those Dubs Amendment | 0:59:27 | 0:59:31 | |
places, because there is such a gap
between the UK's position and the | 0:59:31 | 0:59:35 | |
rest of Europe's on this. Can I
thank the honourable lady for that, | 0:59:35 | 0:59:39 | |
and I was not aware of that
fascinating point. The idea that | 0:59:39 | 0:59:44 | |
other countries are choosing not to
send their children to the UK... Out | 0:59:44 | 0:59:47 | |
of common decent seat, in the best
interests of those children, in fear | 0:59:47 | 0:59:55 | |
that they could not be reunited with
family. This makes even more | 0:59:55 | 0:59:58 | |
imperative. Surely, we should be
ensuring that that happens as the | 0:59:58 | 1:00:11 | |
honourable lady points out. The
children affected -- one of the | 1:00:11 | 1:00:17 | |
children affected by the rules, is a
boy growing up in Eritrea. In 2010, | 1:00:17 | 1:00:26 | |
his brother was taken by the
soldiers, and was never heard from | 1:00:26 | 1:00:29 | |
again. Then, when he was 16,
soldiers came to his school. He | 1:00:29 | 1:00:35 | |
never returned. Age 16, he told his
family that he had fled Eritrea. He | 1:00:35 | 1:00:40 | |
did not know where he planned to go.
That is the point about legal aid or | 1:00:40 | 1:00:45 | |
whatever, he just needed to go, but
he had to keep moving. He passed | 1:00:45 | 1:00:50 | |
through Sudan, Libya, over the
Mediterranean, and he fattens up in | 1:00:50 | 1:00:56 | |
the United Kingdom. After applying
for asylum, he was recognised -- he | 1:00:56 | 1:00:59 | |
ends up in the UK. After applying
for asylum, he was unable to be | 1:00:59 | 1:01:05 | |
re-knighted with his family in
Britain. The UK has offered him a | 1:01:05 | 1:01:09 | |
new home. But what home could he
have particularly at that age | 1:01:09 | 1:01:14 | |
without his family? One refugees
said, a refugee without a family, is | 1:01:14 | 1:01:21 | |
like a body without a soul. That is
something that is going to be in an | 1:01:21 | 1:01:26 | |
amnesty report coming. The
Government have previously asserted | 1:01:26 | 1:01:29 | |
that allowing children to sponsor
their family members to join them, | 1:01:29 | 1:01:33 | |
sending the children to the UK, said
that they can act as sponsors. | 1:01:33 | 1:01:40 | |
Numerous peers to rose to take on
this argument, before Christmas, and | 1:01:40 | 1:01:46 | |
I congratulate them, echoing what Mr
Justice said in the tribunal, that | 1:01:46 | 1:01:49 | |
there is no evidence undermining it,
it's been reproved factor of | 1:01:49 | 1:01:54 | |
argument. The draft of Article 50
was one of those peers who took it | 1:01:54 | 1:02:03 | |
on forcefully. He described the
Government's indications that | 1:02:03 | 1:02:07 | |
families in countries like Syria,
Libya, Eritrea Zidane, could sit | 1:02:07 | 1:02:12 | |
down together and make a cold
calculation to send a child on a | 1:02:12 | 1:02:16 | |
long journey across desert and see
that might take several months or | 1:02:16 | 1:02:24 | |
even years, so as to secure the
right to send the family to join | 1:02:24 | 1:02:27 | |
them. It is very difficult to
disagree with the noble lord on this | 1:02:27 | 1:02:33 | |
when he called it a joke. The
Government has refuge over -- | 1:02:33 | 1:02:41 | |
recognised... There is no special
definition of a refugee than a child | 1:02:41 | 1:02:46 | |
having to meet that is different
from an adult, they have two passed | 1:02:46 | 1:02:52 | |
the same test, and if they are
recognised as refugees, it is | 1:02:52 | 1:02:57 | |
because of their need of
international protection. It is | 1:02:57 | 1:03:00 | |
therefore surely only right that
these children are able to meet | 1:03:00 | 1:03:02 | |
their family members, as adult
refugees would be able to. A | 1:03:02 | 1:03:07 | |
situation that has been described as
perverse. This is the other side of | 1:03:07 | 1:03:13 | |
the coin that this bill is dealing
with. It would allow siblings under | 1:03:13 | 1:03:19 | |
25 to join them. I had her not to
make it, I had heard not to assert | 1:03:19 | 1:03:27 | |
that parents would callously send
their children on life-threatening | 1:03:27 | 1:03:30 | |
journey is just so that they can
later join them. I urge her to use | 1:03:30 | 1:03:36 | |
instead recognise that children are
better off being with their parents, | 1:03:36 | 1:03:39 | |
with those who support them, to
bring them to the UK, and bring the | 1:03:39 | 1:03:43 | |
UK into line with the vast majority
of the rest of Europe, so that | 1:03:43 | 1:03:48 | |
people who are recently refugees in
Greece and Italy can have trust and | 1:03:48 | 1:03:51 | |
faith in the United Kingdom. Without
wanting to pay out the minister to | 1:03:51 | 1:03:58 | |
much, she may well argue that there
are provisions for a wider group of | 1:03:58 | 1:04:01 | |
family members to be reunited. These
the lady... This bill is not needed, | 1:04:01 | 1:04:10 | |
she would say. However, the right
honourable lady is aware, those | 1:04:10 | 1:04:14 | |
roots do not cover all family
relationships that I just described, | 1:04:14 | 1:04:20 | |
nor are they accessible for
refugees. | 1:04:20 | 1:04:31 | |
Clause one of the bill also gives
the Home Secretary a discretionary | 1:04:35 | 1:04:38 | |
power to grant a family reunion
application, in other circumstances, | 1:04:38 | 1:04:44 | |
where doing so maybe in the best
interests of the child, because a | 1:04:44 | 1:04:49 | |
family member, be in the carries
circumstances, as a result of | 1:04:49 | 1:04:54 | |
emotional, psychological, financial
dependency, or as she may see | 1:04:54 | 1:05:00 | |
otherwise fit. Can I trust the
refugee team, who e-mailed me the | 1:05:00 | 1:05:07 | |
other afternoon, to say that the
trust supports the mental health of | 1:05:07 | 1:05:13 | |
young refugees, and the refugee team
here, with the support of the chief | 1:05:13 | 1:05:22 | |
executive, Paul Jenkins, wishes to
procure the support. Thank you very | 1:05:22 | 1:05:26 | |
much for those working, who have
taken time to get away from their | 1:05:26 | 1:05:32 | |
busy lives, and who to write any
mail in support of that. Family | 1:05:32 | 1:05:37 | |
reunion is primarily about bringing
families back together, but it | 1:05:37 | 1:05:39 | |
should also be seen as a safe and
legal route for refugees to escape | 1:05:39 | 1:05:45 | |
dangerous circumstances. The Home
Secretary, last month, television | 1:05:45 | 1:05:48 | |
that the UK has reached the halfway
point in resettling 20,000 refugees | 1:05:48 | 1:05:52 | |
from the Syrian conflict, and this
must the congratulated. -- must be | 1:05:52 | 1:06:03 | |
congratulated. For the purposes of
family reunion, it is only the | 1:06:03 | 1:06:08 | |
relative of the UK, that -- in the
UK that needs to be officially | 1:06:08 | 1:06:12 | |
recognised as a refugee. The
beneficiaries of family reunion are | 1:06:12 | 1:06:16 | |
often the most honourable. In 2017,
most family reunion visas work | 1:06:16 | 1:06:20 | |
issued from people to Eritrea,
Zidane, and Syria. -- Sudan and | 1:06:20 | 1:06:26 | |
Syria. Despite the global refugee
crisis being worse since... In | 1:06:26 | 1:06:39 | |
recent years, the number of people
applying asylum in the UK has | 1:06:39 | 1:06:44 | |
fallen. 86% of refugees live in the
world's poorest countries, not | 1:06:44 | 1:06:49 | |
richest countries, expanding the
provisions for them to find safety | 1:06:49 | 1:06:59 | |
in our country is to our benefit as
well as their benefit. This is what | 1:06:59 | 1:07:08 | |
Klaus two is about. Until the
passing of that act, legal | 1:07:08 | 1:07:18 | |
assistance has been available. With
its removal, even those families | 1:07:18 | 1:07:22 | |
that are eligible to be reunited
face significant hurdles, in being | 1:07:22 | 1:07:26 | |
able to navigate the process. In
their report, not so | 1:07:26 | 1:07:29 | |
straightforward, the British Red
Cross set out the many bureaucratic | 1:07:29 | 1:07:33 | |
and practical barriers families
face. At a recent event in | 1:07:33 | 1:07:43 | |
parliament, MPs said first-hand
about the impact of not having legal | 1:07:43 | 1:07:47 | |
aid can have. And I am sure that our
honourable member, said about Sara | 1:07:47 | 1:07:54 | |
Foster, a case worker, with the
British Red Cross, said that... For | 1:07:54 | 1:08:00 | |
refugees who have been able to work,
while the decision to work buster | 1:08:00 | 1:08:06 | |
waiting for a decision to an asylum
application, meeting these costs can | 1:08:06 | 1:08:11 | |
prove near impossible. Sarah told us
that families resort to loans from | 1:08:11 | 1:08:16 | |
an sleepless lenders, and are living
on virtually nothing to make the | 1:08:16 | 1:08:26 | |
support that they need to make
application fireball. She told us of | 1:08:26 | 1:08:33 | |
one applicant who she met in a
supermarket, who had been recognised | 1:08:33 | 1:08:36 | |
as a refugee, and in his shopping
basket were packet of 10p noodles. | 1:08:36 | 1:08:44 | |
He plans to live on that the next
few weeks to save up for the legal | 1:08:44 | 1:08:50 | |
costs to bring his children to
safety. These are the situations | 1:08:50 | 1:08:54 | |
that we are dealing with, Madam
Deputy Speaker. These are the | 1:08:54 | 1:08:57 | |
situations that too many people are
facing, and I would like just to | 1:08:57 | 1:09:01 | |
wind up by thanking the British Red
Cross, the UN refugee agency, the | 1:09:01 | 1:09:06 | |
refugee Council, Amnesty
International, Oxfam, for their | 1:09:06 | 1:09:12 | |
support in this bill, and particular
John Fenton for his extremely | 1:09:12 | 1:09:15 | |
brilliant help, and I would like to
thank many of the brilliant | 1:09:15 | 1:09:19 | |
charities and supporters who have
been in touch, and those who work | 1:09:19 | 1:09:22 | |
every day to be in touch, and to
help refugees, and also the baroness | 1:09:22 | 1:09:28 | |
working on this area in the House of
lords, the NHS refugee team, and one | 1:09:28 | 1:09:33 | |
of the first people to get in touch
with me, the landlord in Kent, who | 1:09:33 | 1:09:43 | |
got in touch to ask how he could
help. He has a refugee family. | 1:09:43 | 1:09:47 | |
Across the United ended, we have
seen tremendous support for this | 1:09:47 | 1:09:53 | |
bill. People want to do the right
thing, and I hope that members today | 1:09:53 | 1:09:57 | |
will ensure that the right thing
happens, and we see that this bill | 1:09:57 | 1:10:01 | |
will progress at the very least to
the next stage. Thank you very much. | 1:10:01 | 1:10:09 | |
The question is that this bill be
read a second time. David Warburton. | 1:10:09 | 1:10:17 | |
Thank you very much, and it is a
privilege and a pleasure to follow | 1:10:17 | 1:10:21 | |
the honourable gentleman, the member
for oh, it's gone... I nailed it. I | 1:10:21 | 1:10:36 | |
really do congratulate, and I
commend him for bringing this bill | 1:10:36 | 1:10:41 | |
to the House, and for his moving
persuade them -- persuasive, and | 1:10:41 | 1:10:47 | |
fascinating speech. I don't just
commend him for bringing it to the | 1:10:47 | 1:10:51 | |
House, but also for building so much
support around it, because this | 1:10:51 | 1:10:55 | |
Israeli and important debate, and an
important bill, and it is -- this is | 1:10:55 | 1:11:00 | |
really an important debate and an
important bill, and it is a subject | 1:11:00 | 1:11:05 | |
close to my heart. Many of us will
remember the Dubs Amendment in 2016, | 1:11:05 | 1:11:10 | |
to the immigration act, when that
came before the House in April that | 1:11:10 | 1:11:15 | |
year. On the back of the Dublin
regulation, which said that refugee | 1:11:15 | 1:11:18 | |
families have a right to stay
together. On the back of that, the | 1:11:18 | 1:11:28 | |
Dubs Amendment looks too obviously
extend that to unaccompanied | 1:11:28 | 1:11:33 | |
children fleeing war in Syria,
living at the time in the Calais | 1:11:33 | 1:11:36 | |
camp. He did not have any family
that. I was one of only five men as | 1:11:36 | 1:11:42 | |
of this side of the House to feel
sufficiently strongly to support | 1:11:42 | 1:11:46 | |
that amendment and vote against the
Government. Just three of us now | 1:11:46 | 1:11:50 | |
remain on the benches. By honourable
friend, the member for Colchester, | 1:11:50 | 1:11:54 | |
who is just leaving the chamber, was
the other, but the pressure that was | 1:11:54 | 1:11:59 | |
exerted at the time was enough to
persuade the Government to | 1:11:59 | 1:12:03 | |
subsequently accept the amendment,
and its provisions, and I mention | 1:12:03 | 1:12:07 | |
all that because this area of policy
is one which I have thought about | 1:12:07 | 1:12:16 | |
carefully, and we all need is good
to know that, particular as the | 1:12:16 | 1:12:20 | |
landscape shifts and changes. | 1:12:20 | 1:12:25 | |
It is only by exploring these issues
that we come to the right | 1:12:25 | 1:12:30 | |
conclusions. In doing so, I think we
need to look carefully at the | 1:12:30 | 1:12:33 | |
background to the situation today.
If we look at the UK's reaction to | 1:12:33 | 1:12:39 | |
the appalling humanitarian crisis in
Syria, I think we can be proud of | 1:12:39 | 1:12:44 | |
what is an impressive record. Almost
2.5 billion in aid has been | 1:12:44 | 1:12:51 | |
committed since 2012. This not only
represents our largest ever response | 1:12:51 | 1:12:55 | |
to a humanitarian crisis but I
believe we are second only to the | 1:12:55 | 1:13:08 | |
United States in providing support
and far ahead of our European | 1:13:08 | 1:13:11 | |
neighbours. This support has been
focused on educating refugees who | 1:13:11 | 1:13:13 | |
found themselves in countries like
Jordan, Lebanon, as well as helping | 1:13:13 | 1:13:15 | |
them to find jobs. These are big
numbers, over half a million | 1:13:15 | 1:13:18 | |
children in Syria have been in
education thanks to UK aid and tens | 1:13:18 | 1:13:23 | |
of thousands enrolled in schools in
surrounding countries. In terms of | 1:13:23 | 1:13:27 | |
refugees coming to the UK, in 2016,
at the height of the crisis in the | 1:13:27 | 1:13:33 | |
Calais camps, the UK settled more
refugees from outside Europe than | 1:13:33 | 1:13:39 | |
any other EU state. In fact, figures
show that over a third of people | 1:13:39 | 1:13:45 | |
resettled in the EU actually came to
the UK. In that process, the most | 1:13:45 | 1:13:51 | |
vulnerable refugees have been
supported through the settlement | 1:13:51 | 1:13:54 | |
programmes that offer a safe and
legal routes to protection and are | 1:13:54 | 1:13:58 | |
specifically designed also to keep
families together. By 2020, 20,000 | 1:13:58 | 1:14:06 | |
refugees from Syria will have been
settled. Around half of which have | 1:14:06 | 1:14:10 | |
already arrived here. Without
wanting to list more figures, over | 1:14:10 | 1:14:15 | |
the past five years, nearly 25,000
family reunion visas have been | 1:14:15 | 1:14:22 | |
issued and since 2010, 50,000 people
have been given protection status in | 1:14:22 | 1:14:26 | |
the UK. It is a powerful speech. I
wonder if he can reiterate the point | 1:14:26 | 1:14:36 | |
on the refugees, we are seeking
support. This country has a powerful | 1:14:36 | 1:14:42 | |
record of supporting refugees in
situ, in the region, where they are | 1:14:42 | 1:14:46 | |
most vulnerable and the most
vulnerable of those we are bringing | 1:14:46 | 1:14:49 | |
them to safety on these shores and I
wonder if he could address that | 1:14:49 | 1:14:54 | |
issue in particular. My honourable
friend reads my mind and has | 1:14:54 | 1:14:58 | |
obviously been looking ahead. Not
literally, I promise six under | 1:14:58 | 1:15:07 | |
current rules, partners must rightly
show that their relationship if they | 1:15:07 | 1:15:09 | |
are coming here, predates their
exile, and that it is ongoing and | 1:15:09 | 1:15:14 | |
that both parties have an intent to
continue the relationship here. | 1:15:14 | 1:15:17 | |
Children must show they are related
and under 18, unmarried and not | 1:15:17 | 1:15:23 | |
living an independent life. Family
reunion visas themselves are exempt | 1:15:23 | 1:15:27 | |
from some of the usual criteria.
There is no need to demonstrate | 1:15:27 | 1:15:32 | |
adequate finance to support
dependents and offenders do not have | 1:15:32 | 1:15:36 | |
to demonstrate proficiency in
English and there is no processing | 1:15:36 | 1:15:40 | |
charge or immigration health
surcharge will. When it comes to | 1:15:40 | 1:15:43 | |
other family members, quite rightly,
there are exceptions and additional | 1:15:43 | 1:15:56 | |
compassionate circumstances that can
be taken into account. These kinds | 1:15:56 | 1:15:58 | |
of exceptions could apply to help a
dependent child over a team or an | 1:15:58 | 1:16:01 | |
unaccompanied child with a relative
in the UK. As their House will know, | 1:16:01 | 1:16:05 | |
family reunion can be enacted
through other resettlement schemes, | 1:16:05 | 1:16:10 | |
the mandate and Gateway schemes
offer routes for refugees to be | 1:16:10 | 1:16:13 | |
settled in the UK where this is in
their best interest and both of | 1:16:13 | 1:16:18 | |
these games recognise family ties as
part of this calculation. A family | 1:16:18 | 1:16:24 | |
links are also one of the grounds
for eligibility under the Syrian | 1:16:24 | 1:16:29 | |
vulnerable person resettlement
scheme and the children at risk | 1:16:29 | 1:16:32 | |
scheme is also helping to resettle
up to 3000 people and their families | 1:16:32 | 1:16:37 | |
from the Middle East and North
Africa region over the course of | 1:16:37 | 1:16:41 | |
this Parliament. I think the key
part of looking closely at this area | 1:16:41 | 1:16:45 | |
has to be a focus on how best we
target our responses and are | 1:16:45 | 1:16:50 | |
supported as my honourable friend
pointed out earlier. If we change | 1:16:50 | 1:16:53 | |
policy here in the UK, if we signal
and signpost ourselves as a more | 1:16:53 | 1:16:59 | |
open door, how will this influence
behaviour and therefore lives? Those | 1:16:59 | 1:17:05 | |
facing civil war and persecution, as
we have heard, had little choice | 1:17:05 | 1:17:08 | |
about fleeing their homeland, but
what follows that, how best can we | 1:17:08 | 1:17:13 | |
step in to support? I am grateful to
the honourable gentleman giving way, | 1:17:13 | 1:17:20 | |
but if these children have been
accepted as refugees does he not say | 1:17:20 | 1:17:24 | |
that the cost to the government,
local government and everyone else | 1:17:24 | 1:17:29 | |
in their future years, will be less
if they are part of a family and | 1:17:29 | 1:17:35 | |
have a successful life and a
successful settlement and are not | 1:17:35 | 1:17:37 | |
left here as orphans? That is a very
good point and I appreciate the | 1:17:37 | 1:17:48 | |
intervention. Cost is not the matter
here, this is really about... It is | 1:17:48 | 1:17:51 | |
about what factors will influence
behaviour. What will be the result | 1:17:51 | 1:17:55 | |
of a change of policy? Because I
think... He is making a very | 1:17:55 | 1:18:04 | |
powerful speech, a great deal of
which I agree with and I recognise | 1:18:04 | 1:18:07 | |
the great deal that the government
has done in many areas but in terms | 1:18:07 | 1:18:11 | |
of change of policy, one of the
policy changes and it is modest and | 1:18:11 | 1:18:16 | |
that is to make it easier for those
who have fled in fear to get around | 1:18:16 | 1:18:21 | |
the very difficult requirements to
provide documentation, for example, | 1:18:21 | 1:18:27 | |
in order to access Legal Aid. I am
sure he will know that the British | 1:18:27 | 1:18:32 | |
Red Cross found some families were
missing documents. He will know that | 1:18:32 | 1:18:39 | |
frequently, if you are genuinely
fleeing in fear, you do not have | 1:18:39 | 1:18:42 | |
time to go through a check list of
document you might need later. This | 1:18:42 | 1:18:48 | |
bill does, in a very modestly,
improves things in a direction he | 1:18:48 | 1:18:52 | |
has argued for in the past. There is
a lot to be said for what he has | 1:18:52 | 1:18:59 | |
just said. And as he knows,
exceptional compassionate | 1:18:59 | 1:19:06 | |
circumstances do exist and the Home
Office guidance allows for this. He | 1:19:06 | 1:19:10 | |
is absolutely right, there are
issues about that and there are | 1:19:10 | 1:19:14 | |
timing issues. The practicalities,
the logistics of the situation can | 1:19:14 | 1:19:20 | |
often mean that that is not as
easy... The gentleman asks a very | 1:19:20 | 1:19:26 | |
legitimate question in what will be
the impact of change? We have heard | 1:19:26 | 1:19:32 | |
today from the right honourable
lady, the chair of the Home Affairs | 1:19:32 | 1:19:36 | |
Select Committee, that current
policy is one that is leading to | 1:19:36 | 1:19:39 | |
authorities in Greece and Italy not
sending children who would otherwise | 1:19:39 | 1:19:44 | |
be eligible under the Dubs
Amendment, is the honourable | 1:19:44 | 1:19:48 | |
gentleman comfortable with the
status quo? Not entirely. And I | 1:19:48 | 1:19:55 | |
think we need to look closely at
that and look closely at how the | 1:19:55 | 1:20:00 | |
Dubs Amendment scheme is being run
and and how it has been runs. I'd do | 1:20:00 | 1:20:09 | |
not think councils have taken it on
in the way that they perhaps should | 1:20:09 | 1:20:14 | |
have done. Secondary movements are
important. I think... I am not sure | 1:20:14 | 1:20:20 | |
that secondary movements really do
improve lives and I think that there | 1:20:20 | 1:20:25 | |
are precedents, there are examples
that we can look at. In 2015, | 1:20:25 | 1:20:31 | |
Germany's asylum seeker intake
increased by 155% as a result of | 1:20:31 | 1:20:36 | |
people reacting specifically to
policy change. More than 20% of | 1:20:36 | 1:20:44 | |
those people who sought that asylum
in Germany that year were from the | 1:20:44 | 1:20:47 | |
Balkan countries, which have been
conflict free for more than 20 | 1:20:47 | 1:20:50 | |
years. Those people were not seeking
refuge, they were seeking | 1:20:50 | 1:20:53 | |
opportunity. Just to be clear with
the honourable gentleman, what we | 1:20:53 | 1:21:01 | |
are doing is we are putting under
eight teams in the same category as | 1:21:01 | 1:21:05 | |
overrated. They are already here and
we are giving them a right to family | 1:21:05 | 1:21:09 | |
life. That is what they want and if
that is what they want to make their | 1:21:09 | 1:21:17 | |
lives better,... There is an
argument were some would say that | 1:21:17 | 1:21:21 | |
under that act over eight teams
neither family more. We should give | 1:21:21 | 1:21:23 | |
it to the under 18 's, they are
here. I am sure no one would | 1:21:23 | 1:21:31 | |
disagree with the fact that it would
not be in the end chest... It would | 1:21:31 | 1:21:35 | |
only be in the interest of people
traffickers and no one else's, for | 1:21:35 | 1:21:39 | |
children to be encouraged to leave
their families and undertake a | 1:21:39 | 1:21:44 | |
perilous, difficult and dangerous
journeys in the hope that the | 1:21:44 | 1:21:46 | |
relatives might be able to join them
in the future. How much worse if | 1:21:46 | 1:21:51 | |
they found themselves forced to do
that? In my experience, chairing an | 1:21:51 | 1:21:58 | |
enquiry into resilience into
extremism in North Africa and the | 1:21:58 | 1:22:02 | |
Middle East, has shown that there an
appalling number of criminal gangs | 1:22:02 | 1:22:06 | |
looking to exploit vulnerable people
in the region. Our role must be to | 1:22:06 | 1:22:12 | |
provide support first in the region,
upholding for all of the reasons we | 1:22:12 | 1:22:16 | |
have heard, that those who need
international protection should be | 1:22:16 | 1:22:20 | |
able to claim this in the first safe
country they reach. Has he had the | 1:22:20 | 1:22:25 | |
benefit of reading the report from
last summer, an independent enquiry | 1:22:25 | 1:22:32 | |
into the situation of separated and
unaccompanied minors in Europe? If | 1:22:32 | 1:22:36 | |
he does, he will see that using
evidence, they knocked the myth of | 1:22:36 | 1:22:40 | |
the pool factor on its head. I have
not read it and I would be | 1:22:40 | 1:22:45 | |
interested to read it and I will
look that bad. Thank you very much. | 1:22:45 | 1:22:49 | |
It sounds interesting. The pull
factor does appear to be something | 1:22:49 | 1:22:55 | |
that is cited time and time again
and in Germany, there is a clear | 1:22:55 | 1:23:00 | |
example of that and I would be
intrigued to know how it is they | 1:23:00 | 1:23:03 | |
have come to the opposite
conclusion. I think that we need to | 1:23:03 | 1:23:10 | |
look at the quickest and least
precarious route for safety, rather | 1:23:10 | 1:23:14 | |
than travelling into and across
Europe to reach the UK. Having said | 1:23:14 | 1:23:19 | |
that, it is also vital that we are
in a position to continually review | 1:23:19 | 1:23:23 | |
and mould policy to adapt ourselves
to changing circumstances. As the | 1:23:23 | 1:23:29 | |
member Bill seeks to do. I am very
pleased, as I said, that we are able | 1:23:29 | 1:23:36 | |
to debate it and I hope... As my
honourable friend, the member for | 1:23:36 | 1:23:46 | |
mid-Worcestershire, as he said, I
warned against using language like | 1:23:46 | 1:23:50 | |
empathy bypass, because I don't
think... It is in the interest of a | 1:23:50 | 1:23:58 | |
friendly, productive, nonpartisan
debate, because we all have views, | 1:23:58 | 1:24:03 | |
we all have our own... We all
obviously feel empathy and we may | 1:24:03 | 1:24:09 | |
express that in different ways, all
opinion can be equally and properly | 1:24:09 | 1:24:15 | |
express, I hope and value. Let me
just get to the end. I am very | 1:24:15 | 1:24:20 | |
pleased that the Justice Secretary
is undertaking the review of Legal | 1:24:20 | 1:24:26 | |
Aid reforms. In his review, he will
be properly addressing the Legal Aid | 1:24:26 | 1:24:32 | |
changes in respect of immigration
cases. I look forward to the report | 1:24:32 | 1:24:36 | |
later this year and any changes that
will result. Of course, on top of | 1:24:36 | 1:24:41 | |
all this and perhaps above all, in
tackling the plight of refugees, we | 1:24:41 | 1:24:45 | |
need to look at the causes. The
government must continue, as I have | 1:24:45 | 1:24:51 | |
every faith that will, to support
international efforts to find a | 1:24:51 | 1:24:56 | |
comprehensive and sustainable
solution to the root causes of the | 1:24:56 | 1:24:59 | |
refugee crisis. Yes, we must
respond, carefully and deliberately | 1:24:59 | 1:25:04 | |
to the consequences of the situation
in the Middle East, but we must | 1:25:04 | 1:25:07 | |
focus hard on the matter itself.
This, I finish that the government | 1:25:07 | 1:25:12 | |
will continue to do and I am sure
that the whole House will support | 1:25:12 | 1:25:15 | |
those efforts. Vicky Foxcroft. Thank
you. I want to begin by | 1:25:15 | 1:25:24 | |
congratulating my honourable friend
on the second reading of his bill. | 1:25:24 | 1:25:27 | |
There are many of us in this house
who feel strongly about this subject | 1:25:27 | 1:25:31 | |
and I am grateful for the
opportunity to make my own | 1:25:31 | 1:25:35 | |
contribution to the debate. I
suspect, like many of my honourable | 1:25:35 | 1:25:40 | |
friends who are here today, my
interest in this bill comes from | 1:25:40 | 1:25:45 | |
personal experiences gained at my
advice surgery. Lewisham Deptford | 1:25:45 | 1:25:50 | |
has more than its fair share of
immigration casework and many of the | 1:25:50 | 1:25:54 | |
cases my staff and I deal with are
very troubling. However, it is those | 1:25:54 | 1:25:59 | |
which fall within the scope of this
bill but are often the most | 1:25:59 | 1:26:04 | |
traumatic. In December last year, I
met with a Somali woman who is | 1:26:04 | 1:26:09 | |
caring for her four nieces and
nephews in Lewisham | 1:26:09 | 1:26:22 | |
after their father was murdered in
front of them and their mother back | 1:26:22 | 1:26:25 | |
home in Somalia. The mother
disappeared for several years and it | 1:26:25 | 1:26:27 | |
was discovered that she had sought
asylum in Cyprus. She is | 1:26:27 | 1:26:29 | |
experiencing deteriorating physical
health as well as suffering from the | 1:26:29 | 1:26:33 | |
mental trauma. My constituent is in
the process of trying to reunite her | 1:26:33 | 1:26:36 | |
sister with her children, but under
current rules, the sister has to | 1:26:36 | 1:26:43 | |
undergo a lengthy, stressful and
costly process of applying for a | 1:26:43 | 1:26:46 | |
visa to settle here. The Lewisham
refugee and migrant network, and | 1:26:46 | 1:26:53 | |
excellent but overstretched and
under resourced service which | 1:26:53 | 1:26:56 | |
operates in my constituency... Thank
you. I know what good work it has | 1:26:56 | 1:27:05 | |
done. Was she recognised the work
for action for refugees in Lewisham | 1:27:05 | 1:27:10 | |
who would also be assisted by the
provisions set out in this bill. I | 1:27:10 | 1:27:21 | |
agree. We have so many organisations
who do so much great work. I was | 1:27:21 | 1:27:31 | |
told about a woman from Gambia who
claimed asylum in the UK with her | 1:27:31 | 1:27:35 | |
youngest child in 2011 after finding
out that the government forces were | 1:27:35 | 1:27:40 | |
looking for her husband and family. | 1:27:40 | 1:27:41 | |
Her eldest daughter turned 18 in the
intervening years and has not been | 1:27:50 | 1:27:53 | |
allowed to roam reconvened with our
family in the UK. These are | 1:27:53 | 1:27:59 | |
vulnerable people, and as my
honourable and right honourable | 1:27:59 | 1:28:01 | |
friend is well no, it is stressful
enough to negotiate the Home Office | 1:28:01 | 1:28:08 | |
system without adding the extra
difficulties associated with having | 1:28:08 | 1:28:12 | |
suffered significant trauma. The
cost of making a Visa, is also a | 1:28:12 | 1:28:19 | |
significant barrier. If you allow me
to lighten the mood is likely at | 1:28:19 | 1:28:28 | |
this point, I say that I am proud of
the work of my local council, the | 1:28:28 | 1:28:33 | |
London Borough of Lewisham, who have
been doing great work to support | 1:28:33 | 1:28:38 | |
refugees, and are formally agreed to
join the resettlement programme in | 1:28:38 | 1:28:44 | |
September 2016, Lewisham Council has
housed 15 families from Syria, which | 1:28:44 | 1:28:50 | |
was the second-highest number of any
London borough. As an Lewisham | 1:28:50 | 1:28:55 | |
Council also assures me that it has
offered 24 Kappes is for | 1:28:55 | 1:28:59 | |
unaccompanied refugee children, but
the Home Office has only used one of | 1:28:59 | 1:29:04 | |
them. This is completely
unacceptable. She points out the | 1:29:04 | 1:29:09 | |
case in Lewisham, which you point
out that this is the case with | 1:29:09 | 1:29:13 | |
Labour led councils across the
country, where they are offering to | 1:29:13 | 1:29:17 | |
put more up, but the Government is
not using them, and the Government | 1:29:17 | 1:29:21 | |
needs to take action immediately to
utilise these places. I absolutely | 1:29:21 | 1:29:26 | |
agree with everything that my
honourable friend has just said, | 1:29:26 | 1:29:28 | |
like I was saying that this is
completely unacceptable. We have got | 1:29:28 | 1:29:32 | |
a council that is willing to help,
and no doubt, hundreds of honourable | 1:29:32 | 1:29:37 | |
children who are in a position where
they need their help. In conclusion, | 1:29:37 | 1:29:42 | |
because I want to be brief, because
I want us to is how -- us to have a | 1:29:42 | 1:29:47 | |
vote on this, like many of us here
today, I firmly believe that if a | 1:29:47 | 1:29:52 | |
child refugee has been granted the
right to be in the UK, his or her | 1:29:52 | 1:29:56 | |
parents or carers should also be
granted that right. Equally, | 1:29:56 | 1:30:00 | |
children who grew up in this
country, should be allowed that | 1:30:00 | 1:30:05 | |
right, even after they reach the age
of 18. This bill would unable both | 1:30:05 | 1:30:10 | |
of these things do happen, whilst
also providing vital financial | 1:30:10 | 1:30:16 | |
support in the form of legal aid.
Families are being torn apart by the | 1:30:16 | 1:30:21 | |
current rules, and this simply has
to change. Thank you, Madam Deputy | 1:30:21 | 1:30:31 | |
Speaker. It is a pleasure to follow
both my honourable friend the member | 1:30:31 | 1:30:35 | |
for Somerton and Frome who spoke of
his commitment to this issue, and | 1:30:35 | 1:30:40 | |
highlighted his concerns about his
bill in a very constructive way, I | 1:30:40 | 1:30:44 | |
thought, contrary to the way that
sadly I am afraid the honourable | 1:30:44 | 1:30:47 | |
gentleman presented earlier, and
also to follow the honourable lady, | 1:30:47 | 1:30:55 | |
who shared her insight from her
constituency, which is a very | 1:30:55 | 1:30:59 | |
different constituency from mine,
and I respect what you contributed | 1:30:59 | 1:31:04 | |
to the debate, and the insight that
she gave me, but the Government has | 1:31:04 | 1:31:08 | |
done much good in this area which I
support, even so, I rise concerns, | 1:31:08 | 1:31:13 | |
as did my honourable friend, but
this bill in the name the honourable | 1:31:13 | 1:31:17 | |
member for Western Isles and others,
and whilst it is a pleasure to serve | 1:31:17 | 1:31:21 | |
under the honourable members on the
trade committee, where sometimes, | 1:31:21 | 1:31:27 | |
even we agree, I am afraid on this
matter, the substance of this bill, | 1:31:27 | 1:31:31 | |
I have my doubts will stop even
without doubting his intentions, he | 1:31:31 | 1:31:36 | |
is wrong in this area. Of course I
will give way. I am very grateful. I | 1:31:36 | 1:31:42 | |
will happily discoursing, to the
lobby, we can discuss this. The | 1:31:42 | 1:31:53 | |
honourable gentleman escorts me all
around the world as we build | 1:31:53 | 1:31:57 | |
positive trade relationships with
our friends around the world, and I | 1:31:57 | 1:32:00 | |
will talk about some of that, and
perhaps we continue to agree rather | 1:32:00 | 1:32:04 | |
than on the substance of this bill.
Let asked is considerable this bill | 1:32:04 | 1:32:11 | |
asks. It aims to require the Home
Secretary to widen immigration rules | 1:32:11 | 1:32:15 | |
to grant visas to a wide range of
relatives. By making it easier for a | 1:32:15 | 1:32:22 | |
parent to join a child refugee, this
could incentivise families to send | 1:32:22 | 1:32:27 | |
their child ahead, on a perilous
journey, often in the hands of | 1:32:27 | 1:32:32 | |
unscrupulous people traffickers. The
bill wishes to amend the legal aid | 1:32:32 | 1:32:39 | |
sentencing and punishment of assist
the -- of offenders act, but this is | 1:32:39 | 1:32:48 | |
taxpayers' money, and we must
therefore be very responsible about | 1:32:48 | 1:32:52 | |
how we spend it. This bill makes no
mention of how to encourage | 1:32:52 | 1:32:56 | |
integration, how to provide
education, how to offer other | 1:32:56 | 1:33:00 | |
opportunities refugees, nor does it
make any attempt to tackle the | 1:33:00 | 1:33:02 | |
situation is that people are
fleeing, rather than it simply | 1:33:02 | 1:33:06 | |
accept that this will continue to be
the case. I will. Thank you to my | 1:33:06 | 1:33:13 | |
noble friend for giving way. Could I
just go out in to consider this. | 1:33:13 | 1:33:18 | |
This is a bill about refugees, not
economic migrants, with whom one | 1:33:18 | 1:33:25 | |
might have some sympathy, but these
are people who are fleeing war, | 1:33:25 | 1:33:32 | |
persecution, terror, on a scale
frankly that's none of us can even | 1:33:32 | 1:33:38 | |
begin to imagine. So, the idea that
you would willingly put your child | 1:33:38 | 1:33:42 | |
in such an even more perilous place,
is frankly for the ferries. I | 1:33:42 | 1:33:51 | |
respect the honourable lady's
contribution, and her right to make | 1:33:51 | 1:33:55 | |
them to the House, but equally, as
she lets me extend my argument, I | 1:33:55 | 1:34:00 | |
think she will understand why I have
concerns about this process, and | 1:34:00 | 1:34:04 | |
wire have concerns about the use,
potentially of those aren't stupid | 1:34:04 | 1:34:08 | |
as people traffickers, and some
people, even in this country, -- | 1:34:08 | 1:34:12 | |
potentially of potentially abuse at
the hands of people traffickers. | 1:34:12 | 1:34:25 | |
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I
thank the honourable gentleman for | 1:34:25 | 1:34:29 | |
giving way, and I speak for the
ferries, but logic would dictate | 1:34:29 | 1:34:34 | |
that we are dealing with a war-torn
area, and that people will do | 1:34:34 | 1:34:40 | |
incredibly desperate things, such as
those that the honourable gentleman | 1:34:40 | 1:34:44 | |
has outlined, and I don't think it
is for the ferries at all. It is a | 1:34:44 | 1:34:49 | |
sad reality of countries around the
world that also is these things to | 1:34:49 | 1:34:53 | |
happen. I thank my honourable friend
for his contributors, and indeed, I | 1:34:53 | 1:34:57 | |
think you support this point. I
think that debate is continuing | 1:34:57 | 1:35:00 | |
behind me, but in discussing why I
believe that this bill is misguided, | 1:35:00 | 1:35:05 | |
it would seem important for us to
discuss the current system that... | 1:35:05 | 1:35:12 | |
This is history, is important to
where we are, today. Principally, | 1:35:12 | 1:35:15 | |
the UK that is a party to the UK's
1951 Convention relating to the | 1:35:15 | 1:35:22 | |
status of refugees, and the protocol
which expanded coverage beyond | 1:35:22 | 1:35:27 | |
Europe and fleeing World War II. It
is important to note that the | 1:35:27 | 1:35:34 | |
convention does not, the UN
Convention does not provide an | 1:35:34 | 1:35:39 | |
automatic right to family reunion
refugees. The convention does, | 1:35:39 | 1:35:42 | |
however, recommend that signatories
take the necessary measures for the | 1:35:42 | 1:35:47 | |
protection of the refugee's family,
which contends that the Government | 1:35:47 | 1:35:51 | |
does at present. The Government
daily takes more account than this | 1:35:51 | 1:35:56 | |
proposed bill dies of protection of
refugees family, by reducing the | 1:35:56 | 1:36:00 | |
pressure is on family members, as my
honourable friend the memorable day | 1:36:00 | 1:36:05 | |
till Basil, said, questions which I
believe this bill could amplify. 30 | 1:36:05 | 1:36:14 | |
years on from the UN Convention, and
20 on from the protocol amending it, | 1:36:14 | 1:36:19 | |
Article three of the 1989 UA -- 1989
UN Convention ensures that the | 1:36:19 | 1:36:27 | |
best... Home Office officials, when
assessing asylum claims must | 1:36:27 | 1:36:35 | |
already, therefore, consider the
best interest of a child. A similar | 1:36:35 | 1:36:39 | |
consideration must be taken under a
number of UK's governments under | 1:36:39 | 1:36:46 | |
international law. The UK is a
signatory, because of our historic | 1:36:46 | 1:36:51 | |
desire to spread British values, and
often where British values lead, the | 1:36:51 | 1:36:55 | |
world has followed. And it is often
said that the convention was | 1:36:55 | 1:37:00 | |
originally conceived by Churchill
and drafted mainly by British | 1:37:00 | 1:37:03 | |
lawyers. It is perhaps ironic that I
would contends shameless ambulance | 1:37:03 | 1:37:08 | |
chasing lawyers now uses Convention
as a stick to hit Britain with in | 1:37:08 | 1:37:12 | |
all sorts of situations, perhaps
work bye were seen in their | 1:37:12 | 1:37:16 | |
behaviour in Northern Ireland and
Iraq. Some of the worst offenders in | 1:37:16 | 1:37:24 | |
the legal profession use their
skills to actually purport that | 1:37:24 | 1:37:28 | |
certain people are refugees when
they are not, devaluing the | 1:37:28 | 1:37:31 | |
argument, that should be rightly
agreed across the whole house that a | 1:37:31 | 1:37:35 | |
genuine refugees should have the
support of this country. I thank the | 1:37:35 | 1:37:40 | |
honourable gentleman forgiving way.
Do you share my concern that whilst | 1:37:40 | 1:37:44 | |
it sounds great, Russia is actually
a signatory, and we can look at it | 1:37:44 | 1:37:50 | |
abysmal human rights record under
Putin. My honourable friend | 1:37:50 | 1:37:56 | |
anticipates my argument, and he
reminds me that in my maiden speech, | 1:37:56 | 1:38:02 | |
when I referred to King John who
wrote from his castle in my | 1:38:02 | 1:38:06 | |
constituency to sign the Magna
Carta, he created rights for the | 1:38:06 | 1:38:10 | |
first time in 1215. I said in my
maiden speech, human rights were not | 1:38:10 | 1:38:16 | |
conceived in 1998, they have existed
for centuries, they did not exist in | 1:38:16 | 1:38:21 | |
a vacuum. Rights were balanced by
responsibilities. Rights must be | 1:38:21 | 1:38:31 | |
balanced by responsibilities, to
prevent them to carving to harm, and | 1:38:31 | 1:38:34 | |
by response please is the rest of
our country. I am extremely grateful | 1:38:34 | 1:38:39 | |
to the honourable gentleman, since
he is giving us a history lesson, | 1:38:39 | 1:38:43 | |
isn't the best example in history of
a mother sending her child on a | 1:38:43 | 1:38:47 | |
perilous journey that of placing
roses in a basket because of what | 1:38:47 | 1:38:54 | |
she feared would happen to him,
shouldn't we be drawing on that kind | 1:38:54 | 1:39:01 | |
of example rather than telling us
about his fears that the push or | 1:39:01 | 1:39:05 | |
pull factor? If the honourable
gentleman had been paying attention | 1:39:05 | 1:39:07 | |
from the back of the class, he would
have heard me say repeatedly that I | 1:39:07 | 1:39:14 | |
support genuine refugees being
looked after by Britain and allies | 1:39:14 | 1:39:16 | |
in the world, but the trouble is
that this system can be abused. That | 1:39:16 | 1:39:21 | |
is why the European Convention on
human rights, in Article eight | 1:39:21 | 1:39:25 | |
provide a qualified right to respect
family and private life, whilst this | 1:39:25 | 1:39:29 | |
can be interfered with the purpose
of maintaining effective immigration | 1:39:29 | 1:39:34 | |
controls, the interference must be
proportionate. The refugees cannot | 1:39:34 | 1:39:38 | |
easily return to their families, in
that case, the Home Office must take | 1:39:38 | 1:39:42 | |
respect for family life into
account. A final example is the | 1:39:42 | 1:39:53 | |
Dublin regulation, which does
prioritise respect for a family | 1:39:53 | 1:39:56 | |
reunion about certain other
considerations, such as which state | 1:39:56 | 1:40:02 | |
a refugee in Nisha Lee entered the
EU. The Government supported this, | 1:40:02 | 1:40:07 | |
-- initially entered the EU. The
Government supported this and | 1:40:07 | 1:40:11 | |
another a £10 million fund. It is
important to note that again, no | 1:40:11 | 1:40:19 | |
automatic right of family reunion
was conferred. These rules only | 1:40:19 | 1:40:23 | |
determine which country a person can
stay in whilst they await a | 1:40:23 | 1:40:27 | |
decision. The problem is that the
United Kingdom respect it -- it is | 1:40:27 | 1:40:35 | |
vital that other countries
respect... Described as the | 1:40:35 | 1:40:40 | |
electronic centrepiece of the Dublin
regulations, your DAC is a central | 1:40:40 | 1:40:48 | |
system of fingerprints. Police
authorities in Germany said that | 1:40:48 | 1:40:51 | |
they couldn't keep up. There was a
similar situation in Greece, which | 1:40:51 | 1:40:56 | |
estimated in 2000 betting that more
of a third of people arriving were | 1:40:56 | 1:41:00 | |
not fingerprinted, and in Italy,
too. Greece and Italy have the | 1:41:00 | 1:41:05 | |
highest numbers recorded under
category to Mac, -- under category | 1:41:05 | 1:41:10 | |
to Mac. After 18 months, category
two data is raised, enabling people | 1:41:10 | 1:41:18 | |
to apply for asylum in another EU
member state, even if they cannot be | 1:41:18 | 1:41:22 | |
entitled to do so. This is wrong,
because Italy and Greece are safe | 1:41:22 | 1:41:27 | |
countries. Any member opposite that
wishes to disagree with me, should | 1:41:27 | 1:41:31 | |
take that up with the ambassadors
for those countries. There is no | 1:41:31 | 1:41:36 | |
reason for a genuine refugees
fleeing horrific violence and | 1:41:36 | 1:41:40 | |
persecution, not to see a flood of
relief and safety on arrival in | 1:41:40 | 1:41:44 | |
either country. And obviously, for
the avoidance of doubt, it is right | 1:41:44 | 1:41:49 | |
for the United Kingdom to play our
part, and we do. But perhaps the | 1:41:49 | 1:41:52 | |
reason that so many of the arrivals
are not registering their | 1:41:52 | 1:41:56 | |
fingerprints is that they have not
been refugees fleeing conflict, | 1:41:56 | 1:42:00 | |
whether in Syria, or as were in the
Middle East, but are economic | 1:42:00 | 1:42:04 | |
migrants from countries further
afield, perhaps sub-Saharan Africa. | 1:42:04 | 1:42:14 | |
Would he recognise that Britain is
one of six countries around the | 1:42:14 | 1:42:18 | |
world where it meets the 0.7% target
on spending on international aid and | 1:42:18 | 1:42:23 | |
so few other countries are doing
that including many around the | 1:42:23 | 1:42:28 | |
European Union? That is an excellent
point and again, he pre-empts my | 1:42:28 | 1:42:33 | |
remarks, because I will talk about
aid which I think is a vital part of | 1:42:33 | 1:42:38 | |
this debate. Before I do, I wanted
to refer to what one of my | 1:42:38 | 1:42:43 | |
constituent said to me, Graham, he
wrote to me and he said the majority | 1:42:43 | 1:42:57 | |
of would-be asylum seekers have
landed on Mediterranean coasts and | 1:42:57 | 1:42:59 | |
have then chosen to cross several
countries, all of which could have | 1:42:59 | 1:43:02 | |
provided refuge. This seems to
contradict the argument that they | 1:43:02 | 1:43:04 | |
are escaping from persecution and
water. I would suggest that | 1:43:04 | 1:43:09 | |
honourable members should listen to
people in the country and listen to | 1:43:09 | 1:43:12 | |
the views of people in the country,
rather than belittling them, because | 1:43:12 | 1:43:17 | |
this of course is the establishment
view of people, who then need to | 1:43:17 | 1:43:24 | |
consider what people feel in the
country. They have all been | 1:43:24 | 1:43:32 | |
criticising this constituent and
maligning his views, but this | 1:43:32 | 1:43:36 | |
constituent wrote in that same
e-mail of his personal belief in a | 1:43:36 | 1:43:41 | |
sensible and compassionate system of
accepting genuine refugees. I agree | 1:43:41 | 1:43:46 | |
with him. I must make some progress.
So the UK's commitment under | 1:43:46 | 1:43:55 | |
international law, which we clearly
follow and the letters I have | 1:43:55 | 1:43:59 | |
received from constituents,... Point
of order. The people we are talking | 1:43:59 | 1:44:07 | |
about in the bill are already here.
This is another topic. That is not a | 1:44:07 | 1:44:12 | |
point of order. The honourable
gentleman will continue his speech. | 1:44:12 | 1:44:18 | |
The commitments under international
law which the UK clearly follows | 1:44:18 | 1:44:21 | |
more closely than other countries
and the letters I have received from | 1:44:21 | 1:44:25 | |
constituent shows that the UK does
care about refugees. Under the | 1:44:25 | 1:44:32 | |
Syrian vulnerable persons
resettlement scheme, the UK | 1:44:32 | 1:44:35 | |
resettled over 10,500 people by last
month. The Home Secretary | 1:44:35 | 1:44:40 | |
highlighted several points which I
think are important to reiterate | 1:44:40 | 1:44:43 | |
today as to why we should be proud.
This is the largest number of | 1:44:43 | 1:44:58 | |
any European country. Nearly half of
those resettled have been children. | 1:45:00 | 1:45:02 | |
We are over halfway to honouring our
commitment and the government is | 1:45:02 | 1:45:04 | |
considering whether the UK's should
extend its target. Over 500 children | 1:45:04 | 1:45:07 | |
have been resettled under a
different scheme or the children at | 1:45:07 | 1:45:10 | |
risk scheme, plus 220 unaccompanied
children were resettled under the | 1:45:10 | 1:45:16 | |
immigration act and another 8000
Syrian asylum seekers have been | 1:45:16 | 1:45:22 | |
granted asylum since 2011. The UK
operates the gateway protection | 1:45:22 | 1:45:27 | |
programme which allows resettlement
of up to 750 refugees every year, | 1:45:27 | 1:45:32 | |
referred to the UK by the UN High
Commissioner for Refugees under the | 1:45:32 | 1:45:39 | |
1951 Convention. We have the mandate
refugee programme and the Home | 1:45:39 | 1:45:44 | |
Office considers asylum from those
granted refugee status and either a | 1:45:44 | 1:45:51 | |
local office or the British Embassy
in the country of refuge and to have | 1:45:51 | 1:45:55 | |
close ties to the UK, including but
not limited to the family here. | 1:45:55 | 1:46:00 | |
Applying to the UK through the
immigration system is also one | 1:46:00 | 1:46:05 | |
additional option open to refugees.
In total, since 2010, the UK has | 1:46:05 | 1:46:12 | |
provided asylum or protection to
28,000 children and in the last five | 1:46:12 | 1:46:25 | |
years, 24,700, 24,700 family reunion
visas have been granted, over 5000 | 1:46:25 | 1:46:30 | |
of the 8000 decisions on family
reunion applications between October | 1:46:30 | 1:46:36 | |
2016 and September 20 and two thirds
were granted. But those were all | 1:46:36 | 1:46:42 | |
these schemes have in common, of
course, is that UN recognised | 1:46:42 | 1:46:48 | |
refugees living overseas resettled
in the UK. In 2016, the UK resettled | 1:46:48 | 1:46:53 | |
more refugees from outside Europe
than any other EU member state. The | 1:46:53 | 1:46:59 | |
UK will gladly resettled genuine
refugees living overseas where this | 1:46:59 | 1:47:02 | |
is deemed to be in their best
interest, but crucially, without | 1:47:02 | 1:47:06 | |
people being encouraged to undertake
life-threatening journeys to apply. | 1:47:06 | 1:47:13 | |
The UK has resettled many thousands
of refugees, even if people, members | 1:47:13 | 1:47:19 | |
opposite, might choose to dismiss
that. The UK has spent billions in | 1:47:19 | 1:47:24 | |
aid as my honourable friend has
mentioned already to help look after | 1:47:24 | 1:47:28 | |
refugees in the countries where the
first sought refuge. Perhaps in | 1:47:28 | 1:47:33 | |
their own country, even in their own
country, only yesterday morning | 1:47:33 | 1:47:39 | |
listening to the Today programme, I
heard from several residents living | 1:47:39 | 1:47:45 | |
under bombardment in Easter and
good, the opposition rebel | 1:47:45 | 1:47:49 | |
stronghold on the edge of Damascus.
An English language teacher, the | 1:47:49 | 1:47:55 | |
mother of one family with young
daughters and once the -- one son, | 1:47:55 | 1:48:01 | |
she met her husband in 1990 and
almost 20 years ago, they moved to | 1:48:01 | 1:48:07 | |
Easter Guta from the US to be close
to his elderly parents. Here is what | 1:48:07 | 1:48:10 | |
she said. This is my kitchen. Here
we used to the fridge as a cupboard | 1:48:10 | 1:48:20 | |
to store things then. My daughter is
doing the dishes. I know the world | 1:48:20 | 1:48:24 | |
is waiting for us to evacuate but it
is not right. It is not right to | 1:48:24 | 1:48:29 | |
kick someone out of their own land,
it is not right to force people to | 1:48:29 | 1:48:33 | |
leave. What will happen to them.
They will just be displaced people, | 1:48:33 | 1:48:38 | |
wherever they go, people will look
down on them. How do I think all | 1:48:38 | 1:48:42 | |
this will end? I am not | 1:48:42 | 1:48:53 | |
sure, to tell you the truth. I know
what I hope and I hope something | 1:48:56 | 1:48:59 | |
good will happen and that everything
will be OK and that is what I tell | 1:48:59 | 1:49:02 | |
myself. Everything will be OK. While
members opposite seemed to be | 1:49:02 | 1:49:04 | |
disinterested in the life experience
of someone who is living through a | 1:49:04 | 1:49:07 | |
living hell, I pray that she is
right. I believe, Diana makes an | 1:49:07 | 1:49:09 | |
excellent point. All the more
relevant to us today, because this | 1:49:09 | 1:49:13 | |
is her lived experience. She and her
family are surviving, no more than | 1:49:13 | 1:49:19 | |
that, in an underground shelter, a
basement. Perhaps we should listen | 1:49:19 | 1:49:23 | |
to people like Diana and not just
assume that we know how they think | 1:49:23 | 1:49:28 | |
and feel. Perhaps we should not be
forced to flee their countries and | 1:49:28 | 1:49:35 | |
to make dangerous journeys halfway
across the world. And that is why we | 1:49:35 | 1:49:40 | |
should be proud of all the aid and
the 25 million, 25 million food | 1:49:40 | 1:49:47 | |
rations the UK has given. Back in
2016, David Cameron pledged an | 1:49:47 | 1:49:53 | |
additional 1.2 billion of support
for refugees from Syria, including | 1:49:53 | 1:49:57 | |
in Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey. Last
year the government unveiled a £1 | 1:49:57 | 1:50:03 | |
billion aid package for Syrian
refugees, providing food, shelter, | 1:50:03 | 1:50:08 | |
vaccines, health care, skills and
job opportunities so they do not | 1:50:08 | 1:50:12 | |
feel forced to make the perilous and
potentially life-threatening journey | 1:50:12 | 1:50:16 | |
to Europe. There are many other UK
aid projects as well, including 300 | 1:50:16 | 1:50:22 | |
million towards a facility for
refugees in Turkey, 200 million | 1:50:22 | 1:50:27 | |
towards economic development
opportunities in Jordan. Almost 200 | 1:50:27 | 1:50:31 | |
million to support Palestinian
refugees. To those people listening | 1:50:31 | 1:50:33 | |
on the radio and watching on
television, it should be crystal | 1:50:33 | 1:50:38 | |
clear, the UK does care and this
government does care. I care and | 1:50:38 | 1:50:43 | |
that is why we should not virtue the
signal today. Even with a clear | 1:50:43 | 1:50:51 | |
commitment to helping refugees show,
I believe it is important that we | 1:50:51 | 1:50:54 | |
retain clear control over our asylum
seeker system. What is disgraceful | 1:50:54 | 1:51:02 | |
is members not being heard in this
House for their own views, which | 1:51:02 | 1:51:06 | |
every member should be entitled to
espouse. Let me continue in that | 1:51:06 | 1:51:12 | |
vein. Take Sweden. The Guardian, no
criticise of immigration of course, | 1:51:12 | 1:51:19 | |
described the situation in Sweden it
is almost bursting point. | 1:51:19 | 1:51:25 | |
Continuing, there have been small
riots in Malmo over the demolition | 1:51:25 | 1:51:29 | |
of a migrant camp set up for
Palestinians and a general sense | 1:51:29 | 1:51:32 | |
that the fabric of Swedish society
is under strain. These are not my | 1:51:32 | 1:51:36 | |
words, these are the words of the
Guardian newspaper. The Telegraph | 1:51:36 | 1:51:39 | |
does not cross things over, they say
when asylum seekers had their case | 1:51:39 | 1:51:46 | |
rejected, most disappeared, on
average seven out of ten of those | 1:51:46 | 1:51:49 | |
facing deportation just banished or
rather they stay in the country and | 1:51:49 | 1:51:54 | |
keep gaining a system that could
have been designed for ease of | 1:51:54 | 1:51:56 | |
exploitation. I would gently say to
my honourable friend, this is not | 1:51:56 | 1:52:01 | |
one of his greatest contributions.
Those parties stands proud on | 1:52:01 | 1:52:08 | |
offering places of refuge,
especially to children in conditions | 1:52:08 | 1:52:14 | |
that he is actually described. Could
I please remind him, this bill is | 1:52:14 | 1:52:20 | |
about people who are our genuine
refugees, who have been granted that | 1:52:20 | 1:52:25 | |
status and I think if he could
confine his comments to that, it | 1:52:25 | 1:52:29 | |
would all progress in a much
pleasanter way. I respect my | 1:52:29 | 1:52:35 | |
honourable friend, and I respect her
position as a sponsor of this bill. | 1:52:35 | 1:52:44 | |
She is entirely right, it is
entirely her right to be able to do | 1:52:44 | 1:52:48 | |
that, but equally it is also my
right and the right of every member | 1:52:48 | 1:52:52 | |
to have contrary views and my
argument that I outlined earlier is | 1:52:52 | 1:52:56 | |
that some people, some people, game
the system and that is wrong. That | 1:52:56 | 1:53:03 | |
is wrong. And the risk of this bill,
in my view, is that it could | 1:53:03 | 1:53:07 | |
encourage more people to do that,
more people to take that dangerous | 1:53:07 | 1:53:12 | |
journey, that it could encourage
more children to be put in harms way | 1:53:12 | 1:53:16 | |
and even the children that Sweden
attempts to resettle can suffer if | 1:53:16 | 1:53:20 | |
refugees are granted asylum without
careful management. The Telegraph | 1:53:20 | 1:53:24 | |
said in 2004 it was absorbing about
400 children a year. Five years ago, | 1:53:24 | 1:53:32 | |
this had grown to 2600 and even then
the system was starting to creep. | 1:53:32 | 1:53:37 | |
Last year, 35000 and accompanied
children claimed asylum in children | 1:53:37 | 1:53:44 | |
-- in Sweden, 35,000, providing the
right characters so many would | 1:53:44 | 1:53:48 | |
overwhelm a superpower let alone a
small Nordic state. Care homes have | 1:53:48 | 1:53:52 | |
been set up quickly and they fall
short of what is needed to protect | 1:53:52 | 1:53:56 | |
the staff and the children. A
22-year-old working out one of the | 1:53:56 | 1:54:01 | |
homes was stabbed to death. This is
no loan case. 18 points were found | 1:54:01 | 1:54:05 | |
in an abandoned house with no
toilets and no heating, the | 1:54:05 | 1:54:10 | |
temperature was well below zero.
They were slipping on the floor. | 1:54:10 | 1:54:13 | |
Many under the' to keep warm and one
was just nine years old. After being | 1:54:13 | 1:54:24 | |
placed in a care home, they ran away
and were sleeping rough again. There | 1:54:24 | 1:54:27 | |
are anger at children who are sent
ahead by the desperate families. | 1:54:27 | 1:54:30 | |
This is the point that my honourable
friend made earlier. There are | 1:54:30 | 1:54:35 | |
trafficked children who are sent
ahead by desperate families. There | 1:54:35 | 1:54:40 | |
are also trafficked children who may
be in the hands of gang masters and | 1:54:40 | 1:54:47 | |
before sleep -- may be forced into
work and prostitution. There are | 1:54:47 | 1:54:51 | |
children living in abandoned
buildings often sucked into a | 1:54:51 | 1:54:53 | |
criminal underworld. The article
concluded that the lesson from the | 1:54:53 | 1:54:55 | |
continent is clear, to let in more
immigrants than you can handle leads | 1:54:55 | 1:54:59 | |
to trouble, but to admit that more
children order. Can we calm it down | 1:54:59 | 1:55:11 | |
a bit, please? I am sure the
honourable gentleman is returning to | 1:55:11 | 1:55:16 | |
the bill. I am getting very close
and thank you for your intervention. | 1:55:16 | 1:55:21 | |
I just need to make that quotation
clear, it is not my words, it is the | 1:55:21 | 1:55:27 | |
words that I am quoting from the
article that said the lesson of the | 1:55:27 | 1:55:31 | |
continent is clear, to let in more
immigrants than you can handle leads | 1:55:31 | 1:55:35 | |
to trouble, but to admit more
children than you can care for, | 1:55:35 | 1:55:40 | |
leads to tragedy. I should also,
before I wind up, I should refer to | 1:55:40 | 1:55:46 | |
Germany as well. Where a similar
situation has been seen were up to 1 | 1:55:46 | 1:55:50 | |
million refugees and migrants
entered in 2015. The Telegraph | 1:55:50 | 1:55:55 | |
reporter, obviously, off a terrible
incident on December the 19th which | 1:55:55 | 1:55:59 | |
saw a failed asylum seeker from
Tunisia allow a truck into a | 1:55:59 | 1:56:05 | |
Christmas market stand in Berlin
leaving 12 people dead. -- plough a | 1:56:05 | 1:56:12 | |
truck. Perhaps no event was more
disgusting, more disgraceful than | 1:56:12 | 1:56:19 | |
the events on New Year's Eve 2015 in
Cologne where the BBC reported that | 1:56:19 | 1:56:23 | |
more than 1000 criminal complaints
were filed, and was of them alleging | 1:56:23 | 1:56:28 | |
sexual assault. An officer with the
federal police put in his report | 1:56:28 | 1:56:32 | |
about that night, saying that women,
unaccompanied or not, had to run a | 1:56:32 | 1:56:37 | |
literal gauntlet of heavily
intoxicated men. It was impossible | 1:56:37 | 1:56:44 | |
to describe the situation we were
confronted with, Chaos could have | 1:56:44 | 1:56:48 | |
lead to injuries. That is a
consequence, while a majority of | 1:56:48 | 1:56:52 | |
Germans would still say, the
refugees... | 1:56:52 | 1:56:56 | |
The UK has the potential to face
similar issues. One issue I want to | 1:57:07 | 1:57:12 | |
talk about as I begin to close, and
I suspect the members opposite will | 1:57:12 | 1:57:16 | |
be delighted to hear me begin to
close, is that learning English is | 1:57:16 | 1:57:22 | |
central for integration in British
society. In giving refugees | 1:57:22 | 1:57:26 | |
opportunities, and in the case of
20,000 children resettled since | 1:57:26 | 1:57:30 | |
2010, and education. But this Bill
does not deal with this, with | 1:57:30 | 1:57:38 | |
integration or opportunities. It
does not think through the | 1:57:38 | 1:57:43 | |
implications it would cause, it does
not think about the hard-working | 1:57:43 | 1:57:46 | |
people up and down our land to have
aspirations for their families also. | 1:57:46 | 1:57:52 | |
Hard-working people who should not
suffer because of the strain on | 1:57:52 | 1:57:56 | |
public services that could be
created by this policy. In | 1:57:56 | 1:58:04 | |
conclusion, the present family
reunion policy is designed to | 1:58:04 | 1:58:08 | |
provide a safe and legal route with
no application fee to be paid, for | 1:58:08 | 1:58:12 | |
those dependent family members to
join their refugee family in the UK. | 1:58:12 | 1:58:17 | |
This avoids the need for family
members to make dangerous journeys | 1:58:17 | 1:58:21 | |
to seek protection. I have
highlighted many other excellent | 1:58:21 | 1:58:25 | |
refugee resettlement schemes, and it
is crucial our efforts are | 1:58:25 | 1:58:28 | |
concentrated on making sure these
existing schemes are used to full | 1:58:28 | 1:58:32 | |
effect and that the current law
works properly and effectively | 1:58:32 | 1:58:36 | |
without the need for family members
to make dangerous journeys. This way | 1:58:36 | 1:58:40 | |
we can help people who need it most.
Anyone can provide individual heart | 1:58:40 | 1:58:46 | |
wrenching situations where the
current legislation does not work | 1:58:46 | 1:58:48 | |
for an individual, but it is easy to
vote for something here without | 1:58:48 | 1:58:54 | |
thinking through the consequences.
It is easy to get caught up in | 1:58:54 | 1:58:57 | |
virtue signalling without a second
thought but the men, women and | 1:58:57 | 1:59:00 | |
children we are here to represent.
It is easy to cast aside the views | 1:59:00 | 1:59:04 | |
of the British people, as some did
opposite, who are generous people, | 1:59:04 | 1:59:09 | |
happy to provide a beacon of hope to
so many around the world, but who | 1:59:09 | 1:59:12 | |
want to see their money went well
spent and to want to look after | 1:59:12 | 1:59:17 | |
their own families. To do so would
be wrong for the British people. We | 1:59:17 | 1:59:21 | |
must do what is best for those who
are at risk of being trafficked or | 1:59:21 | 1:59:25 | |
making life-threatening journeys.
You must do what is best for the | 1:59:25 | 1:59:30 | |
millions of refugees, of whom we can
help more and to greater effect by | 1:59:30 | 1:59:35 | |
providing billions in aid to save
them in the lands they call their | 1:59:35 | 1:59:37 | |
own. We must do what is best to keep
control of our system and to protect | 1:59:37 | 1:59:43 | |
the hard-working, decent,
charitable, but silent majority | 1:59:43 | 1:59:46 | |
across the United Kingdom. Shame!
Shame! Order! I thank my honourable | 1:59:46 | 2:00:00 | |
friend for bringing this is Bill to
Parliament, in contrast to the | 2:00:00 | 2:00:07 | |
previous member, he doesn't know the
difference between a migrant and | 2:00:07 | 2:00:11 | |
refugee angiography hasn't read this
Bill. I thank my constituents, all | 2:00:11 | 2:00:16 | |
of whom support this Bill and to
have contacted me in the run-up to | 2:00:16 | 2:00:19 | |
this debate. We must remember that
today, we face unprecedented times. | 2:00:19 | 2:00:28 | |
Over 65 million people around the
world have been forced from their | 2:00:28 | 2:00:33 | |
homes due to conflict, persecution
and the effects of climate change. | 2:00:33 | 2:00:36 | |
That is the entire population of the
UK. Over 22 million of these | 2:00:36 | 2:00:41 | |
refugees, and half of them are
children. Everyone in this house has | 2:00:41 | 2:00:46 | |
been a child, so let's keep this at
the heart of what we are talking | 2:00:46 | 2:00:49 | |
about today. Many have been torn
apart from their families, disparate | 2:00:49 | 2:00:54 | |
to be reunited. They are being kept
apart thanks to bureaucratic hurdles | 2:00:54 | 2:00:58 | |
and UK policy. Our rules are
restrictive and on fear and the | 2:00:58 | 2:01:04 | |
refugees who have reached safety in
the UK can find it impossible to | 2:01:04 | 2:01:07 | |
bring their family members to join
them. Currently, the only family | 2:01:07 | 2:01:11 | |
member is allowed to join adult
refugees in the UK are their partner | 2:01:11 | 2:01:15 | |
and dependent children, all me if
they had under the age of 18. | 2:01:15 | 2:01:20 | |
Unaccompanied children granted
refugee status have no right to | 2:01:20 | 2:01:23 | |
reunite with any family member. This
means those family members who are | 2:01:23 | 2:01:28 | |
separated and remain outside the UK
are left with the invidious choice | 2:01:28 | 2:01:32 | |
of staying out in the dangerous
places or embarking on treacherous, | 2:01:32 | 2:01:38 | |
expensive, unregulated journeys. Or
May after surviving this journey and | 2:01:38 | 2:01:42 | |
reaching our shores does the UK
recognise their family members. | 2:01:42 | 2:01:49 | |
Let's not forget last year, 3000
people died crossing the dangerous | 2:01:49 | 2:01:56 | |
journey across the Mediterranean.
The disgraceful border that the EU | 2:01:56 | 2:01:59 | |
has put up against the shores of
northern Africa. Would he agree with | 2:01:59 | 2:02:05 | |
me that there are many excellent
volunteers in the Mediterranean area | 2:02:05 | 2:02:11 | |
to assist those people in desperate
need, and that sometimes, that part | 2:02:11 | 2:02:15 | |
of the world is looking more like a
cemetery and somewhere where we are | 2:02:15 | 2:02:20 | |
actually saving people's lives? I
wholeheartedly agree. Had it not | 2:02:20 | 2:02:26 | |
been for the support of these
volunteers, the numbers would likely | 2:02:26 | 2:02:30 | |
be far greater than I am reading
here today. Additionally, legal aid | 2:02:30 | 2:02:35 | |
has not been made available for
refugee family reunion since 2012, | 2:02:35 | 2:02:39 | |
which makes it even more difficult.
Recent report by Oxfam and the | 2:02:39 | 2:02:45 | |
refugee Council highlights negative
rules. Overwhelming evidence finds | 2:02:45 | 2:02:48 | |
at reuniting refugee families of
some the best chance of living | 2:02:48 | 2:02:53 | |
settled and fulfilling lives. No one
in this house would not want that, | 2:02:53 | 2:02:57 | |
I'm sure. Separation can have a
devastating impact. Rehabilitation | 2:02:57 | 2:03:04 | |
from automatic experiences and the
ability to adapt. I want to turn my | 2:03:04 | 2:03:09 | |
attention towards the Bill. It has
cross-party support and seeks to do | 2:03:09 | 2:03:13 | |
three things. I will be six linked,
because some people clearly don't | 2:03:13 | 2:03:17 | |
understand what it is about.
Firstly, it expands the criteria on | 2:03:17 | 2:03:23 | |
who qualifies as a family member, so
young people who have turned 18 and | 2:03:23 | 2:03:27 | |
elderly parents can live in safety
with their families in the UK. It | 2:03:27 | 2:03:31 | |
will also give unaccompanied refugee
children the right to sponsor the | 2:03:31 | 2:03:35 | |
whole family so they can rebuild
their lives together in a new | 2:03:35 | 2:03:47 | |
community. It's not rocket science.
I am proud that Scotland has a long | 2:03:47 | 2:03:57 | |
history of welcoming refugees. Over
the past two years, communities have | 2:03:57 | 2:04:02 | |
demonstrated a compassion and
understanding by welcoming over 2000 | 2:04:02 | 2:04:06 | |
Syrian refugees, one of whom I spoke
about here in the chamber on Monday. | 2:04:06 | 2:04:11 | |
I heard comments today that refugees
are driven by an centre. He as an | 2:04:11 | 2:04:17 | |
incentive. On Tuesday, that same
person heard from his family, that | 2:04:17 | 2:04:22 | |
both his cousin and uncle had been
killed. If that is an incentive, | 2:04:22 | 2:04:26 | |
then I think we should all recognise
that is one we all share is very | 2:04:26 | 2:04:31 | |
important and why people become
refugees in the first place. We have | 2:04:31 | 2:04:36 | |
a saying in Scotland and it's a
welcome seeing, we are all Jock | 2:04:36 | 2:04:43 | |
Samson's parents. And we have
another saying, Scotland is not fill | 2:04:43 | 2:04:46 | |
up. That simple yearning we all have
to be with her mum, dad, son or | 2:04:46 | 2:04:53 | |
daughter. Family reunion is also a
safe and legal routes of protection | 2:04:53 | 2:04:57 | |
that refugees can pursue in order to
bring loved ones of the UK. The | 2:04:57 | 2:05:02 | |
current system for uniting families
is stacked against those who need it | 2:05:02 | 2:05:05 | |
and it is stacked needlessly. We
need to introduce humanity into the | 2:05:05 | 2:05:11 | |
system and this Bill does just that.
Lastly, after being out for a light | 2:05:11 | 2:05:17 | |
refreshment with colleagues, I was
on my way back here to my home and I | 2:05:17 | 2:05:21 | |
went through Liverpool Street
station. If anyone has stopped for | 2:05:21 | 2:05:24 | |
the moment there, you will see the
bronze statue about British values. | 2:05:24 | 2:05:31 | |
10,000 children who came across
years during the Second World War, | 2:05:31 | 2:05:37 | |
fleeing persecution in Nazi Germany.
What we talked about today is | 2:05:37 | 2:05:40 | |
several hundred. I think we can all
get up to that job, surely. Would | 2:05:40 | 2:05:49 | |
you agree that those parents send
their children here to keep those | 2:05:49 | 2:05:53 | |
children safe, not so that they
could join them? Although, isn't it | 2:05:53 | 2:05:58 | |
a pity we could not make that
facility? I share every word that | 2:05:58 | 2:06:06 | |
has been said by the Honourable
member. Thank you. Lastly, this is | 2:06:06 | 2:06:12 | |
about humanity. All of us are human,
all of us happy children and that is | 2:06:12 | 2:06:17 | |
why I ask you all to support this
Bill. I am delighted to be a sponsor | 2:06:17 | 2:06:27 | |
of this Bill and is supported and I
congratulate the honourable member | 2:06:27 | 2:06:31 | |
for bringing it forward. I pay
tribute to the work of the British | 2:06:31 | 2:06:35 | |
Red Cross and others who have done a
great deal to assist this matter. I | 2:06:35 | 2:06:41 | |
was a member of the Conservative
Party when Ted Heath ) admitted | 2:06:41 | 2:06:47 | |
refugees from Ugandan Asia. I am
proud of that. In my community now, | 2:06:47 | 2:06:51 | |
we have a happy and prosperous
community of former Ugandan Asians, | 2:06:51 | 2:06:58 | |
no proud British people. That is the
spirit of my party and I hope | 2:06:58 | 2:07:03 | |
members across the house will
remember. That is the spirit in | 2:07:03 | 2:07:10 | |
which my honourable friend spoke
earlier. Other contributions have | 2:07:10 | 2:07:16 | |
perhaps not come up to that spirit.
I simply say this, this is a Bill | 2:07:16 | 2:07:23 | |
which is consistent with government
policy. Government policy, well | 2:07:23 | 2:07:28 | |
explained by my honourable friend,
has sought to address real issues. I | 2:07:28 | 2:07:32 | |
don't criticise anything the
government has done in relation to | 2:07:32 | 2:07:35 | |
the work we have done to support
refugees in the region, to try and | 2:07:35 | 2:07:39 | |
make it possible to make new lives
nearer to home rather than to embark | 2:07:39 | 2:07:44 | |
on dangerous journeys. All of that
is right. The money we have | 2:07:44 | 2:07:49 | |
invested, all that is good. And this
Bill does not seek to criticise or | 2:07:49 | 2:07:53 | |
undermine that in any way. It deals
with the specific area of the law in | 2:07:53 | 2:08:00 | |
relation to family reunion, a
concept which is accepted in our law | 2:08:00 | 2:08:05 | |
and indeed, is accepted in
government policy. The issue is, | 2:08:05 | 2:08:09 | |
however, that in practice, some
areas of the law do not work well or | 2:08:09 | 2:08:15 | |
fail. The Bill does no more than try
to improve the law in that regard | 2:08:15 | 2:08:18 | |
and make it work in a favour
fashion, for, as has been observed, | 2:08:18 | 2:08:24 | |
a very small number of people. The
real issues about pull factors, be | 2:08:24 | 2:08:31 | |
they right or wrong, are addressing
other policy initiatives that the | 2:08:31 | 2:08:35 | |
government has put in place, that
nothing to do with this Bill. This | 2:08:35 | 2:08:39 | |
is a modest but very useful measure
and it would do well to keep in | 2:08:39 | 2:08:44 | |
context. I want to deal with a
couple of points. Yes, the position | 2:08:44 | 2:08:51 | |
of legal aid in family reunion
geysers is being considered by the | 2:08:51 | 2:08:55 | |
Lord Chancellor and I am glad of
that. The Justice select committee | 2:08:55 | 2:08:59 | |
has pressed long and hard for there
to be a review of that. But that | 2:08:59 | 2:09:03 | |
does not mean that you should not
also seek to entrench the laws in | 2:09:03 | 2:09:09 | |
this Bill. It is very important, the
evidence we had, there was a | 2:09:09 | 2:09:15 | |
misapprehension that cases of this
kind are simple and straightforward. | 2:09:15 | 2:09:18 | |
The evidence clearly demonstrated
from practitioners in the fields, | 2:09:18 | 2:09:22 | |
British Red Cross and other lawyers,
do demonstrate that in the vast | 2:09:22 | 2:09:28 | |
majority of cases, it is in fact
quite complicated. And you only have | 2:09:28 | 2:09:33 | |
to think, genuine refugees, the
genuine refugee leaves in fear. As I | 2:09:33 | 2:09:38 | |
made the point earlier, they are not
likely to have time or inclination | 2:09:38 | 2:09:43 | |
to go to a tick box exercise as to
what documentation they may need at | 2:09:43 | 2:09:47 | |
some point further down the future,
under regulations of which they had | 2:09:47 | 2:09:52 | |
no knowledge by the very nature of
things at the time they leave. They | 2:09:52 | 2:09:56 | |
then have to go through the process,
which is diabetic -- for perfectly | 2:09:56 | 2:10:02 | |
good reasons, they have to do so and
almost invariably, there will be a | 2:10:02 | 2:10:07 | |
foreign language, they have to do so
under circumstances of stress and | 2:10:07 | 2:10:11 | |
pressure. I notice from the research
of the British Red Cross, in | 2:10:11 | 2:10:19 | |
something like 74% of family reunion
cases, at least one of the original | 2:10:19 | 2:10:24 | |
documentation that is required under
current rules was missing. That is | 2:10:24 | 2:10:28 | |
hardly surprising, the way these
people have fled and have ended up | 2:10:28 | 2:10:34 | |
here, and properly accepted, I
emphasise, as refugees, under the | 2:10:34 | 2:10:38 | |
legal conventions. Hardly
surprising. They then have to go | 2:10:38 | 2:10:42 | |
through the rigmarole of producing
witness statements, affidavits, to | 2:10:42 | 2:10:47 | |
explain why those missing. Or to
seek to get in touch with embassies | 2:10:47 | 2:10:56 | |
or consulates or powers, which by
their nature, are hardly likely to | 2:10:56 | 2:10:59 | |
be friendly to them to try and seek
alternatives. The idea you can do | 2:10:59 | 2:11:01 | |
that without legal assistance seems
to me wrong, and if anyone socks to | 2:11:01 | 2:11:04 | |
practitioners and judges, they will
tell you that much time is wasted, | 2:11:04 | 2:11:08 | |
both in our court system and for
people and difficult circumstance, | 2:11:08 | 2:11:12 | |
where early legal advice could in
fact, not only have potty just | 2:11:12 | 2:11:17 | |
outcome, but probably would have
saved money for the system as well. | 2:11:17 | 2:11:30 | |
Secondly, at the moment, the issue
around exceptional cases is in | 2:11:30 | 2:11:34 | |
guidance. That is something that, in
practice, the bar on these cases is | 2:11:34 | 2:11:42 | |
extremely high, being rare is the
phrase that is used. That may go | 2:11:42 | 2:11:46 | |
further than is appropriate,
particularly without legal advice to | 2:11:46 | 2:11:49 | |
help you through the minefield as to
how you get over it, or not, the | 2:11:49 | 2:11:53 | |
bar. The Bill seeks to put that same
principle but that is an exceptional | 2:11:53 | 2:12:00 | |
case into statute and that has the
advantage of converting different | 2:12:00 | 2:12:09 | |
rights. I will give way. | 2:12:09 | 2:12:16 | |
I agree with most of what he said.
There is another problem, people are | 2:12:16 | 2:12:22 | |
meant to believe it takes 13 weeks
when it takes months. That can cause | 2:12:22 | 2:12:27 | |
unnecessary hardship and delays and
anxiety. He is entirely right. Any | 2:12:27 | 2:12:34 | |
delay in any kind of tribunal case
causes pressure and hardship and | 2:12:34 | 2:12:39 | |
makes far less effective justice
because the longer things drag on, | 2:12:39 | 2:12:42 | |
the harder it is to make sure
evidence is good and genuine. It is | 2:12:42 | 2:12:47 | |
particularly hard in cases like
this. I do hope that honourable | 2:12:47 | 2:12:52 | |
members will support this bill and
if they do not feel they can support | 2:12:52 | 2:12:55 | |
it or they think that changes are
needed, that they will not prevent | 2:12:55 | 2:13:00 | |
it going forward. We will see
changes and improvements can be made | 2:13:00 | 2:13:09 | |
at the committee stage. As someone
who believes passionately, someone | 2:13:09 | 2:13:18 | |
who believes passionately that I
joined the party of Harold Macmillan | 2:13:18 | 2:13:24 | |
and indeed of Margaret Thatcher, who
did a great deal to support the | 2:13:24 | 2:13:28 | |
communities that came from East
Africa when she became leader of our | 2:13:28 | 2:13:34 | |
party, at I hope no one will stand
in the way of this bill making | 2:13:34 | 2:13:37 | |
progress today. Thank you. Let me
begin by thanking the honourable | 2:13:37 | 2:13:50 | |
member who has introduced this bill
and all the other members who have | 2:13:50 | 2:13:54 | |
signed to support this bill. Deputy
Speaker, I want to start by putting | 2:13:54 | 2:13:59 | |
on record my thanks for the joint
group of Oxfam, Red Cross, refugee | 2:13:59 | 2:14:08 | |
Council, UNHCR and the UN
International and many other | 2:14:08 | 2:14:11 | |
charities for their campaign on this
issue. The coalition of charities | 2:14:11 | 2:14:17 | |
shows the breadth and the strength
of support for a refugee family | 2:14:17 | 2:14:21 | |
reunion. And we have also seen this
morning that many members have put | 2:14:21 | 2:14:29 | |
forward clear and convincing
arguments in support of the bill | 2:14:29 | 2:14:32 | |
today. I will use my time, which
will be brief, because I want to | 2:14:32 | 2:14:37 | |
ensure that we do have a vote on
this, to outline why the Bill | 2:14:37 | 2:14:45 | |
appeals to Labour values of
fairness, respecting human rights | 2:14:45 | 2:14:49 | |
and protecting the vulnerable in our
society and therefore, why we will | 2:14:49 | 2:14:55 | |
be supporting it. The Labour Party
believes in respect for human | 2:14:55 | 2:14:59 | |
rights, they are at the centre of
our approach to foreign policy, | 2:14:59 | 2:15:05 | |
development and treatment of
migrants and refugees on our soil. | 2:15:05 | 2:15:09 | |
This includes the right to family
life. At the moment, the definition | 2:15:09 | 2:15:18 | |
of who is considered close family
for the purposes of family reunion | 2:15:18 | 2:15:23 | |
is narrow. It includes the spouse or
a partner of an adult refugee | 2:15:23 | 2:15:30 | |
ordered their dependent children
under the age of 18. It does not | 2:15:30 | 2:15:35 | |
include Young siblings, elderly
parents or older dependent children. | 2:15:35 | 2:15:41 | |
Doesn't he agree that the small
change of allowing families to | 2:15:41 | 2:15:45 | |
sponsor their immediate families
would be an easy change which would | 2:15:45 | 2:15:48 | |
affect a small number of child
refugees but we have an impact in | 2:15:48 | 2:15:52 | |
the way that we treat child refugees
in this country? Thank you. Let me | 2:15:52 | 2:15:58 | |
thank the honourable member for his
contribution. I do agree and that is | 2:15:58 | 2:16:02 | |
something that I will also be
saying. We have a perverse situation | 2:16:02 | 2:16:09 | |
where unaccompanied children are not
allowed to bring their close family | 2:16:09 | 2:16:12 | |
members to join them in the same way
as an adult can. These are already | 2:16:12 | 2:16:20 | |
some of the most vulnerable children
in our society, they face language | 2:16:20 | 2:16:27 | |
and cultural barriers on top of the
trauma of being forced to flee war | 2:16:27 | 2:16:31 | |
and violence. We are one of the only
countries in Europe to further deny | 2:16:31 | 2:16:36 | |
them the right to reunite with their
families. Evidence shows that | 2:16:36 | 2:16:42 | |
refugees who are not permitted to be
joined by close relatives struggle | 2:16:42 | 2:16:47 | |
to integrate. It is clear that so
long as there are push factors of | 2:16:47 | 2:16:54 | |
war, violence and persecution,
people will be forced to flee from | 2:16:54 | 2:16:57 | |
their homes. Safe and legal routes
to family reunion interrupts the | 2:16:57 | 2:17:04 | |
work of smugglers and people
traffickers. This side of the House | 2:17:04 | 2:17:11 | |
welcomes some recent government
achievements. The treaty committed | 2:17:11 | 2:17:18 | |
to speeding up the process for
refugees in France to join family | 2:17:18 | 2:17:22 | |
members in the UK. We welcome
investment in processing of Dublin | 2:17:22 | 2:17:27 | |
cases and agree that we need to look
at the whole route of refugees. On a | 2:17:27 | 2:17:33 | |
personal level, I do believe that
the Minister takes seriously her | 2:17:33 | 2:17:38 | |
obligations to refugees. And at once
to fulfil Britain's commitments to | 2:17:38 | 2:17:42 | |
honourable -- vulnerable children in
particular. Fulfilling our existing | 2:17:42 | 2:17:48 | |
commitments is not enough. The
government has not yet promised that | 2:17:48 | 2:17:51 | |
this agreement will continue after
Brexit or to bring a change to the | 2:17:51 | 2:17:57 | |
UK's rules to align them with the
current Dublin three permissions. In | 2:17:57 | 2:18:03 | |
a recent Westminster debate, the
minister said, I regarded to be an | 2:18:03 | 2:18:09 | |
absolute priority to take the 480
young people we have committed to, | 2:18:09 | 2:18:15 | |
under the Dubs scheme. This is
encouraging, but 480 young people is | 2:18:15 | 2:18:22 | |
well below the original intention of
the Dubs Amendment which was to | 2:18:22 | 2:18:29 | |
resettle 3000 young people. It is
significantly less than the 10,000 | 2:18:29 | 2:18:34 | |
refugees a year that the UN has
called on Britain to take. The | 2:18:34 | 2:18:38 | |
refugee crisis is large and a
complex challenge. Reforming the | 2:18:38 | 2:18:45 | |
family reunion rules would be a
simple and direct way to help | 2:18:45 | 2:18:49 | |
refugees in the UK and to deter
others from making the dangerous | 2:18:49 | 2:18:53 | |
journey here. What ever immigration
system we have, it should be managed | 2:18:53 | 2:19:01 | |
fairly. At the moment, our
immigration rules are complex and | 2:19:01 | 2:19:07 | |
enforced inconsistently. The Red
Cross found that refugee family | 2:19:07 | 2:19:12 | |
reunion is not a straightforward
immigration matter, only qualified | 2:19:12 | 2:19:18 | |
legal advisers can deal with the
significant and diverse complexities | 2:19:18 | 2:19:23 | |
of the refugee family reunion
process. In his article, yesterday, | 2:19:23 | 2:19:31 | |
the labours Shadow Justice Secretary
expressed sentiment I agree with. | 2:19:31 | 2:19:36 | |
When people cannot afford to defend
their rights, then they are not | 2:19:36 | 2:19:45 | |
worth the paper written on. This is
the case with family reunion at the | 2:19:45 | 2:19:51 | |
moment. Since 2012, immigration has
been outside the scope of legal aid | 2:19:51 | 2:19:57 | |
in England and Wales, although not
in Scotland and Northern Ireland. It | 2:19:57 | 2:20:02 | |
is only fair that navigating the
system up against the bureaucracy | 2:20:02 | 2:20:07 | |
and resources of the Home Office,
applicants should have accessed to | 2:20:07 | 2:20:12 | |
legal aid. The government is
currently undertaking a review of | 2:20:12 | 2:20:17 | |
legal aid provision. I worry that
refugee family reunion will be such | 2:20:17 | 2:20:23 | |
a small but of this review, a small
part of this review, that the urgent | 2:20:23 | 2:20:28 | |
need in this area, could easily be
overlooked. Labour's own review of | 2:20:28 | 2:20:34 | |
legal aid provision is recommended
that areas are family immigration | 2:20:34 | 2:20:38 | |
law should also be brought back into
scope. Specifically family reunion. | 2:20:38 | 2:20:44 | |
Labour supports this bill because it
would reintroduce legal aid for | 2:20:44 | 2:20:48 | |
every family. In conclusion, we want
to live in a society that is fair, | 2:20:48 | 2:20:58 | |
integrated and respects human
rights. We have seen some progress | 2:20:58 | 2:21:03 | |
on child refugees, but there is
clearly more to be done. Reforming | 2:21:03 | 2:21:09 | |
family reunion rules is a simple but
important step to addressing | 2:21:09 | 2:21:14 | |
anomalies in our refugee system. It
would affect a small number of | 2:21:14 | 2:21:21 | |
people, but it would be
transformational for their lives. | 2:21:21 | 2:21:25 | |
Based on Labour values of fairness,
human rights and protecting the most | 2:21:25 | 2:21:30 | |
vulnerable, we on this side of the
House will support the second | 2:21:30 | 2:21:33 | |
reading and I hope the rest of the
members do as well. Thank you very | 2:21:33 | 2:21:39 | |
much and I am very proud to sponsor
this bill. I congratulate the | 2:21:39 | 2:21:46 | |
honourable gentleman opposite and
endorse everything that he's said in | 2:21:46 | 2:21:50 | |
his excellent opening remarks and of
course I fully adopt everything that | 2:21:50 | 2:21:55 | |
we have said, in particular, by my
honourable friend from Chislehurst. | 2:21:55 | 2:21:59 | |
Ever the lawyer, he makes the valid
point that this is a very modest | 2:21:59 | 2:22:06 | |
piece of legislation, it makes the
existing legislation, not just | 2:22:06 | 2:22:10 | |
proves that, but it also makes it
considerably fairer. I would also | 2:22:10 | 2:22:15 | |
join him in saying to honourable
colleagues notably on this side of | 2:22:15 | 2:22:19 | |
the house, if as I understand, you | 2:22:19 | 2:22:31 | |
might find yourself in a position
unable to support the bill, | 2:22:34 | 2:22:36 | |
nevertheless, let it go through to
its third reading and any of these | 2:22:36 | 2:22:39 | |
problems can be arrant out. This is
a small measure and it is also an | 2:22:39 | 2:22:42 | |
incredibly important measure. It
sends out a strong signal from these | 2:22:42 | 2:22:44 | |
benches, about the sort of
conservatives we are all proud to | 2:22:44 | 2:22:46 | |
call ourselves and if I may make
this observation, it is very easy to | 2:22:46 | 2:22:52 | |
take a group of people and attached
to them a label. Which actually then | 2:22:52 | 2:23:00 | |
disassociate yourself from seeing
each and every person in that group | 2:23:00 | 2:23:05 | |
as what they are, a human being,
with a story to tell. I begin my | 2:23:05 | 2:23:13 | |
remarks by reminding everybody what
a refugee is. Refugee is someone who | 2:23:13 | 2:23:18 | |
has been forced to leave their
country, forced to leave their | 2:23:18 | 2:23:27 | |
country, to escape persecution, war
or natural disaster. So this is not | 2:23:27 | 2:23:32 | |
a free choice. You don't wake up of
a morning and say, I think today I | 2:23:32 | 2:23:38 | |
will leave everything I have ever
known and loved for generations and | 2:23:38 | 2:23:43 | |
I will make myself a refugee. And I
will dwell on that in a moment. | 2:23:43 | 2:23:49 | |
First, I want to pay tribute to my
own conservative council. We have | 2:23:49 | 2:23:57 | |
taken in four Syrian families, we
have accommodated them and provided | 2:23:57 | 2:24:01 | |
for them and also given them a
welcome, we continue to support | 2:24:01 | 2:24:05 | |
them, because each of those families
is in our country for a very good | 2:24:05 | 2:24:10 | |
reason, not just because they are
refugees as I have described, but in | 2:24:10 | 2:24:16 | |
particular, at least one member of
their family suffered in a way which | 2:24:16 | 2:24:23 | |
really does go beyond some of our
comprehension. These are people who | 2:24:23 | 2:24:26 | |
have had a family member who has
either been tortured or has been the | 2:24:26 | 2:24:31 | |
subject of some sort of sexual abuse
or they have a particular medical | 2:24:31 | 2:24:35 | |
need which means the last place they
need to be is in a refugee camp or | 2:24:35 | 2:24:41 | |
in the sort of accommodation that
the Jordanian government has very | 2:24:41 | 2:24:45 | |
rightly provided for them. There
need is even greater and I am proud | 2:24:45 | 2:24:49 | |
that we have given them a home in my
constituency. I am proud of the work | 2:24:49 | 2:24:54 | |
that | 2:24:54 | 2:25:04 | |
this government done when it comes
to the provision of aid for | 2:25:13 | 2:25:15 | |
refugees, but if we look at more
recent times, the provision we are | 2:25:15 | 2:25:18 | |
making for the Rohingya Muslims in
Bangladesh. When I went to Jordan, | 2:25:18 | 2:25:20 | |
just over a year ago, as a guest of
Oxfam with the honourable member who | 2:25:20 | 2:25:23 | |
represents tooting, I have to say
that that reality, that human being, | 2:25:23 | 2:25:26 | |
not the label on a group of people,
but meeting individuals, was one of | 2:25:26 | 2:25:28 | |
the most profound things that has
ever happened to me in my life, | 2:25:28 | 2:25:32 | |
because I met that teacher, a man,
living in two rooms, with his two | 2:25:32 | 2:25:39 | |
children and his wife. In the cold,
around one of those peculiar gas | 2:25:39 | 2:25:45 | |
heaters that is provided. I would be
very blunt, Mr Deputy Speaker, in my | 2:25:45 | 2:25:53 | |
description of this remarkable man.
I saw in his eyes, frankly, I saw | 2:25:53 | 2:25:58 | |
Shane. In his eyes. He felt almost
ashamed that he was living in these | 2:25:58 | 2:26:06 | |
circumstances. I am not saying that
he was a proud man in any way, but I | 2:26:06 | 2:26:10 | |
would not be surprised if he was,
but to find himself in those | 2:26:10 | 2:26:15 | |
circumstances, this is a real human
being. He did not make this a choice | 2:26:15 | 2:26:22 | |
three any real desire other than to
escape the real horrors of Syria. He | 2:26:22 | 2:26:30 | |
left his job, he left his home, I
met other people who had left | 2:26:30 | 2:26:34 | |
successful businesses, it does not
matter what class or trade they | 2:26:34 | 2:26:39 | |
might have. They are human beings
who fled terrible circumstances, | 2:26:39 | 2:26:45 | |
they must have been terrible or else
they would not have left! | 2:26:45 | 2:26:50 | |
They scooped up the barest of
possessions. They don't think, have | 2:26:56 | 2:27:00 | |
I got this piece of paper, they just
get out. I will give way. I have a | 2:27:00 | 2:27:07 | |
similar case. A young architect who
escaped from Syria, she was | 2:27:07 | 2:27:13 | |
separated from her husband, and he
finally, with help from my office, | 2:27:13 | 2:27:19 | |
managed to get to the country. They
are both practising architects now | 2:27:19 | 2:27:24 | |
contributing to the country. But
they escaped war-torn Syria and were | 2:27:24 | 2:27:27 | |
separated. This bill will allow
other such families to thrive and | 2:27:27 | 2:27:34 | |
contribute to our country. There are
many such examples. I went to a | 2:27:34 | 2:27:43 | |
refugee camp and met a 19-year-old
who had lived in a tin shed for four | 2:27:43 | 2:27:48 | |
years. His father had had his own
business in Syria. Again, he scooped | 2:27:48 | 2:27:53 | |
up everything and fled through
terror. And there was this | 2:27:53 | 2:27:58 | |
19-year-old. It was a genuinely
concerning and distressing sight to | 2:27:58 | 2:28:04 | |
expedience. Where was his whole? He
had been there for four years. He | 2:28:04 | 2:28:08 | |
didn't want to be in that place. He
could not work, and although our | 2:28:08 | 2:28:14 | |
government is doing a fine job in
providing education for his younger | 2:28:14 | 2:28:19 | |
siblings, for him, where was his
whole? Because the second most | 2:28:19 | 2:28:23 | |
striking feature I experienced was
this clear desire to go home. They | 2:28:23 | 2:28:28 | |
do not want to be living in those
conditions. They want to go home, | 2:28:28 | 2:28:33 | |
they want to go back to the country
which they are so proud of. Imagine | 2:28:33 | 2:28:39 | |
if year after year after year, you
could see that possibility of | 2:28:39 | 2:28:42 | |
returning to your home disappearing?
These are remarkable people, their | 2:28:42 | 2:28:50 | |
hope, their strength, their
humanity, the way they kept | 2:28:50 | 2:28:52 | |
themselves together, somehow with a
semblance of pride, has never left | 2:28:52 | 2:28:57 | |
me. And of course, I will give way.
I thank her for giving way. I too | 2:28:57 | 2:29:04 | |
went to that place and what she has
just said about the concern that | 2:29:04 | 2:29:09 | |
people eventually lose hope. That is
absolutely right. Things are not | 2:29:09 | 2:29:14 | |
easy in Jordan, although they could
be worse. Having made that trip, | 2:29:14 | 2:29:17 | |
would she feel the concern I have
about the pull factor arguments, | 2:29:17 | 2:29:22 | |
that eventually it is too much by
people. It is genuine concern. I | 2:29:22 | 2:29:30 | |
completely understand. But I just
don't believe there is any evidence | 2:29:30 | 2:29:35 | |
to support it. Let us all now stop
and just get real. History tells us, | 2:29:35 | 2:29:43 | |
the honourable gentleman opposite
went back to biblical times. We have | 2:29:43 | 2:29:46 | |
referred to the plight of the Jewish
people in countries like Germany. | 2:29:46 | 2:29:52 | |
These are people living in the most
appalling conditions, surrounded by | 2:29:52 | 2:29:57 | |
war and terror, and it is day after
day, it is month after month and it | 2:29:57 | 2:30:01 | |
has been year after year. To suggest
that you take your child and try to | 2:30:01 | 2:30:07 | |
get it out of that horror, because
deliberately, cruelly using it so | 2:30:07 | 2:30:14 | |
that you can follow it, is frankly
as appalling as it is clearly not | 2:30:14 | 2:30:21 | |
right. It is verging on madness.
People don't do it for that reason. | 2:30:21 | 2:30:27 | |
They may well say, how the hell can
I get my children out of here, | 2:30:27 | 2:30:31 | |
because of the love and concern they
have about child, just like the | 2:30:31 | 2:30:35 | |
Jewish people did in Germany to keep
that child safe. Nothing has changed | 2:30:35 | 2:30:42 | |
in mankind that over the centuries,
over the decades, your desired is to | 2:30:42 | 2:30:46 | |
keep | 2:30:46 | 2:30:56 | |
your child safe, not to use it as a
route for your own escape. Let's | 2:31:03 | 2:31:06 | |
crush that one. And I would say
gently, people, where is the | 2:31:06 | 2:31:08 | |
evidence that people are doing that?
Genuine refugees, is the last thing | 2:31:08 | 2:31:11 | |
they do. I will give way. I
completely agree that family | 2:31:11 | 2:31:13 | |
reunification is in the interests of
health and humanity, but is allotted | 2:31:13 | 2:31:15 | |
in bed as it can are gangs of human
traffickers? It's a genuine concern, | 2:31:15 | 2:31:19 | |
and if we want to safeguard families
and children, we must that concern. | 2:31:19 | 2:31:29 | |
I say to my honourable friend, we
are talking about people who are | 2:31:29 | 2:31:33 | |
already here. Whose status has been
determined as genuine refugees. The | 2:31:33 | 2:31:43 | |
idea that there are gangs of people
smugglers in Syria, going through | 2:31:43 | 2:31:48 | |
this desperate war zone, with all
the destruction, looking for | 2:31:48 | 2:31:53 | |
families to somehow entice them to
put their children into their hands, | 2:31:53 | 2:31:57 | |
this is just the stuff of fantasy.
But the important point I am | 2:31:57 | 2:32:05 | |
seeking, it really is the stuff of
fantasy. It really, truly is. And | 2:32:05 | 2:32:12 | |
what I want... Hang on. The point I
am trying to get to in all of this | 2:32:12 | 2:32:18 | |
is that it is beholden on all of us
to conduct these important debates | 2:32:18 | 2:32:23 | |
on the basis of facts and evidence.
Yes, at times, emotion. But look at | 2:32:23 | 2:32:29 | |
the problems we have in our country,
with the lack of understanding, and | 2:32:29 | 2:32:34 | |
if I may say, perhaps we have seen
that evidence and some of the | 2:32:34 | 2:32:39 | |
speeches given today. There is a
profound difference between somebody | 2:32:39 | 2:32:44 | |
who is living in a very poor set of
circumstances in a particular | 2:32:44 | 2:32:48 | |
country, who wants to come here and
may come here illegally. But that | 2:32:48 | 2:32:56 | |
person is an economic migrants. And
even if they are wrong in the way | 2:32:56 | 2:32:59 | |
that they go about coming into our
country, can we understand why that | 2:32:59 | 2:33:07 | |
person is coming here? These are not
people who come here to take, these | 2:33:07 | 2:33:11 | |
are people who come here to give.
The whole of our society, for | 2:33:11 | 2:33:21 | |
generations, for decades and first
centuries, is populated and peppered | 2:33:21 | 2:33:25 | |
with people who have come to this
country from other parts of the | 2:33:25 | 2:33:29 | |
country to build a better life for
themselves and their children. That | 2:33:29 | 2:33:34 | |
is why I have always welcomed them,
because they contribute by virtue of | 2:33:34 | 2:33:41 | |
their immigration status, fleeing
poverty, become for a life that is | 2:33:41 | 2:33:47 | |
better, and they did not expect us
to provide for them. She is making a | 2:33:47 | 2:33:54 | |
heartfelt speech. Perhaps I can
articulate the concern. We hear that | 2:33:54 | 2:33:59 | |
this Bill only relates to children
who are already here, but my | 2:33:59 | 2:34:03 | |
understanding is it will apply to
future child refugees and the | 2:34:03 | 2:34:07 | |
concern on these benches is that, as
people traffickers take advantage of | 2:34:07 | 2:34:12 | |
our changes, then of course, more
could be pulled into desperate | 2:34:12 | 2:34:16 | |
situations where they are taking
advantage of. Our concern is on | 2:34:16 | 2:34:20 | |
welfare, not on the other points.
You miss the point. The point is, | 2:34:20 | 2:34:28 | |
these are refugees with the status
of refugees. They have been through | 2:34:28 | 2:34:32 | |
all the systems, they are accepted
as genuine refugees, and this is | 2:34:32 | 2:34:40 | |
just a fake and fully point that is
being put forward. The point I am | 2:34:40 | 2:34:46 | |
trying to make is this, it says a
lot that we have seen examples of | 2:34:46 | 2:34:52 | |
this, not understanding the
difference between economic migrant | 2:34:52 | 2:34:56 | |
and somebody who is a refugee. And
it it even extends, and some of us, | 2:34:56 | 2:35:00 | |
and I'm not trying to get into
Brexit, but during the referendum | 2:35:00 | 2:35:06 | |
debate, people right they were
raising the issue of immigration. I | 2:35:06 | 2:35:10 | |
am that person who had a
conversation with a constituent, who | 2:35:10 | 2:35:14 | |
said she was voting Leaves, because
there were too many Muslims in our | 2:35:14 | 2:35:18 | |
country. That is the level of the
debate within our nation. That is | 2:35:18 | 2:35:24 | |
the level of plain misunderstanding
and miss information. That is why | 2:35:24 | 2:35:29 | |
this debate is so important. I will
give way. If there is any truth in | 2:35:29 | 2:35:35 | |
the idea of an anchor is sending
someone forward, the adult has a | 2:35:35 | 2:35:40 | |
right to be here, but we know from
the adult experience, this is | 2:35:40 | 2:35:45 | |
nonsense. As she says, it is
fantasy. When you are refugee, it is | 2:35:45 | 2:35:50 | |
not that you wake up one morning
deciding, it is circumstances around | 2:35:50 | 2:35:54 | |
you that force you to go, adult or
child. I will bring my remarks to a | 2:35:54 | 2:36:01 | |
conclusion. Of course I agree with
everything the honourable member has | 2:36:01 | 2:36:05 | |
said. He is absolutely right.
Honourable members had nothing to | 2:36:05 | 2:36:10 | |
fear in this piece of legislation.
It is the right thing to do. | 2:36:10 | 2:36:14 | |
Legally, it is the right thing to
do, and morally, it is the right | 2:36:14 | 2:36:19 | |
thing to do. Even if you cannot vote
for it, please add steam, but please | 2:36:19 | 2:36:23 | |
go better than that and support this
excellent piece of legislation. I | 2:36:23 | 2:36:30 | |
stand proudly today in support of
this Bill and I would like to | 2:36:30 | 2:36:34 | |
congratulate the honourable member
in his determination in bringing | 2:36:34 | 2:36:38 | |
this Bill forward, despite some
efforts from people in this chamber | 2:36:38 | 2:36:42 | |
to short little empathy and trying
to frustrate this process. I support | 2:36:42 | 2:36:45 | |
this Bill for my refugee and migrant
constituents in Sheffield the and | 2:36:45 | 2:36:53 | |
Hillsborough, and further our loved
ones who are unable to join them. | 2:36:53 | 2:36:56 | |
This Bill will give a lifeline to
families torn apart first by | 2:36:56 | 2:37:00 | |
conflict and then again buyer and
fear and nonsensical immigration | 2:37:00 | 2:37:05 | |
rules. Currently, refugees can only
be joined by parents or children | 2:37:05 | 2:37:09 | |
under the age of 18. Unaccompanied
children cannot currently sponsor | 2:37:09 | 2:37:14 | |
anyone to join them. This Bill will
expand to qualifies as family so | 2:37:14 | 2:37:19 | |
that vulnerable people such as the
elderly and children over the age of | 2:37:19 | 2:37:24 | |
18 may be able to reunite with their
families in the UK. It will allow | 2:37:24 | 2:37:28 | |
unaccompanied children have to
adjust to life in the UK without a | 2:37:28 | 2:37:33 | |
single family member to support
them, to sponsor relatives to join | 2:37:33 | 2:37:36 | |
them. Today, I support the Bill,
because some of my constituents do | 2:37:36 | 2:37:41 | |
not know when they will see their
families again. A young man from | 2:37:41 | 2:37:47 | |
Syria came to study in the UK in
2006. But when he attempted to | 2:37:47 | 2:37:53 | |
return to his hometown after his
studies, he was forced to flee again | 2:37:53 | 2:37:58 | |
and make the perilous journey back
to the UK. He settled in Sheffield | 2:37:58 | 2:38:03 | |
and applied for a visa to visit his
family, who had made it past the | 2:38:03 | 2:38:09 | |
Syria border to Turkey. But he was
rejected. He sought help from every | 2:38:09 | 2:38:13 | |
agency available to be able to be
reunited with his family, but to no | 2:38:13 | 2:38:19 | |
avail. In 2016, the government
brought in the Vulnerable Persons | 2:38:19 | 2:38:25 | |
Relocation Scheme. He applied. Later
that year, he was finally informed | 2:38:25 | 2:38:30 | |
his family had been registered and
his case passed to the Home Office. | 2:38:30 | 2:38:35 | |
But two years on and six years after
attempting to see his loved ones, he | 2:38:35 | 2:38:39 | |
has yet to receive a single piece of
correspondence telling him when | 2:38:39 | 2:38:44 | |
exactly his family can join him. It
is hard to believe that he and his | 2:38:44 | 2:38:49 | |
family are considered some of the
lucky ones. When I asked why his | 2:38:49 | 2:38:55 | |
family eventually qualified for the
scheme, he told me that his elderly | 2:38:55 | 2:39:00 | |
parents had developed serious health
problems, in part because of his | 2:39:00 | 2:39:03 | |
older brother, who was tragically
killed by a handmade bomb. And they | 2:39:03 | 2:39:09 | |
are the lucky ones. And they are
still waiting. I cannot imagine what | 2:39:09 | 2:39:15 | |
he and his family have gone through.
I also cannot imagine the grief and | 2:39:15 | 2:39:20 | |
worry that he could have been saved.
And had he been aided by a process, | 2:39:20 | 2:39:25 | |
which from the start, regarded as
parents and sister as family in the | 2:39:25 | 2:39:30 | |
way that we would for any citizen,
they might very well be with him | 2:39:30 | 2:39:35 | |
today. Today, I am supporting this
Bill, because children are missing | 2:39:35 | 2:39:40 | |
their grandparents, their uncles and
aunts and their siblings. In | 2:39:40 | 2:39:46 | |
November, 21 pupils from an academy
in Sheffield wrote to me about the | 2:39:46 | 2:39:51 | |
injustice of our immigration rules.
Many of them are refugees or have | 2:39:51 | 2:39:55 | |
parents who arrived in this country
as refugees and then settled. I will | 2:39:55 | 2:40:00 | |
give way. She said she was
supporting this Bill because it | 2:40:00 | 2:40:08 | |
would help reunite grandparents and
aunties and uncles. It was my | 2:40:08 | 2:40:11 | |
understanding the Bill did not
extend to those categories. That is | 2:40:11 | 2:40:15 | |
a point and it is an aspiration of
mind to see that everyone has the | 2:40:15 | 2:40:18 | |
right to be reunited with their
families. I will continue. Many of | 2:40:18 | 2:40:22 | |
them are growing up not knowing
their relatives. They are just | 2:40:22 | 2:40:25 | |
children, but even the good point
out that the UK is not adhering to | 2:40:25 | 2:40:32 | |
the UN Convention on the rights of
the child. These pupils urge me to | 2:40:32 | 2:40:40 | |
challenge the government's double
standard on who qualifies for family | 2:40:40 | 2:40:43 | |
when you are refugee. Answer me, why
should UK citizens be able to call | 2:40:43 | 2:40:49 | |
their grandparents and siblings and
cousins family when this right is | 2:40:49 | 2:40:53 | |
not afforded to refugees? Why should
unaccompanied child refugees not be | 2:40:53 | 2:40:57 | |
allowed to sponsor anyone to come
and live with them? Imagine fleeing | 2:40:57 | 2:41:01 | |
your war-torn home so save your life
to come to the UK and trying to | 2:41:01 | 2:41:08 | |
start a life all over again. Imagine
the trauma you have experienced. | 2:41:08 | 2:41:12 | |
Imagine the difficulties and
turbulence of adolescence while also | 2:41:12 | 2:41:15 | |
having to learn to cook, clean, read
and write without having your | 2:41:15 | 2:41:20 | |
parents there to guide you. And then
imagine being told your family | 2:41:20 | 2:41:24 | |
cannot join you. I cannot. In my
opinion, this is too much to bear. | 2:41:24 | 2:41:29 | |
We do not have any government
statistics on specific family | 2:41:29 | 2:41:34 | |
reunion applications, although we
know these now make up the majority | 2:41:34 | 2:41:37 | |
of refugee applications. This is
telling. We're not paying enough | 2:41:37 | 2:41:42 | |
attention to the issues that matter
to refugees in this country. We're | 2:41:42 | 2:41:47 | |
not giving them the support they
need. I am so proud of Sheffield and | 2:41:47 | 2:41:52 | |
legacy of welcoming refugees. We
have provided a home to over 1500 | 2:41:52 | 2:41:57 | |
refugees is 2014 and is one of the
areas in which the Rubble Person | 2:41:57 | 2:42:02 | |
Relocation Scheme is being carried
out. Let's do more. With the spirit | 2:42:02 | 2:42:08 | |
of Sheffield and pass this Bill so
that families can start to rebuild | 2:42:08 | 2:42:12 | |
their lives. | 2:42:12 | 2:42:25 | |
May I also congratulate the
gentleman whose constituency I will | 2:42:25 | 2:42:28 | |
not try to pronounce for bringing
forward this import bill on such an | 2:42:28 | 2:42:33 | |
important issue? In order to debate
this bill properly, I think it is | 2:42:33 | 2:42:36 | |
important to look at everything the
government is doing to help refugees | 2:42:36 | 2:42:40 | |
and those fleeing conflict and
persecution as opposed to just this | 2:42:40 | 2:42:45 | |
bill in isolation. Context in this
case is very important. We have been | 2:42:45 | 2:42:50 | |
investing in how we can support the
most vulnerable refugees through | 2:42:50 | 2:42:55 | |
resettlement programmes such as
those bringing Syrian refugees to | 2:42:55 | 2:42:58 | |
Britain. By 2020, 20,000 Syrian
refugees will have been resettled | 2:42:58 | 2:43:03 | |
and around half of that already
arrived. I am proud to represent | 2:43:03 | 2:43:08 | |
Colchester and my residents who have
been so welcoming of those who have | 2:43:08 | 2:43:12 | |
made their home in our town and I
would particularly like to commend | 2:43:12 | 2:43:16 | |
the work of fresh beginnings who do
such great work. We are also | 2:43:16 | 2:43:25 | |
resettling 3000 vulnerable refugee
children and family members from | 2:43:25 | 2:43:28 | |
conflict zones in the Middle East
and North Africa and this is on top | 2:43:28 | 2:43:33 | |
of the unaccompanied child refugees
brought from Europe under the Dubs | 2:43:33 | 2:43:36 | |
scheme which members will note, I
supported. I know that some in this | 2:43:36 | 2:43:41 | |
chamber and it has been referenced
by several members so far feel it is | 2:43:41 | 2:43:45 | |
not enough, but we should be clear
that this government is playing its | 2:43:45 | 2:43:49 | |
part in helping those who are in
need of sanctuary. In 2016, the UK | 2:43:49 | 2:44:05 | |
settled more refugees from outside
Europe than any other EU states. And | 2:44:06 | 2:44:08 | |
Eurostat figures show that over one
third of people resettled in the EU | 2:44:08 | 2:44:11 | |
came to the UK. We need every
European country to be playing their | 2:44:11 | 2:44:13 | |
part. It has long been established
that the Dublin regulations that | 2:44:13 | 2:44:17 | |
asylum seekers should apply for
asylum in the first EU state they | 2:44:17 | 2:44:20 | |
arrive at and I accept that this can
be an incredible administrative | 2:44:20 | 2:44:24 | |
burden on some of these nations. It
is right that we do what we can to | 2:44:24 | 2:44:29 | |
help and this government has
committed £3.6 million to help | 2:44:29 | 2:44:34 | |
strengthen cooperation with France
on the operation of the Dublin | 2:44:34 | 2:44:38 | |
Regulation and the development fund.
We will continue, I have no doubt to | 2:44:38 | 2:44:41 | |
work with them to identify projects
which support genuine claims through | 2:44:41 | 2:44:47 | |
the Dublin process. These are not
the | 2:44:47 | 2:44:59 | |
actions of a government that does
not care about refugees. This, in my | 2:45:00 | 2:45:03 | |
view, is about getting the existing
regulations working properly. About | 2:45:03 | 2:45:05 | |
ensuring... I am most grateful to
you for giving way and I respect the | 2:45:05 | 2:45:08 | |
decision he took on the Dubs
Amendment. I wonder if he has | 2:45:08 | 2:45:10 | |
thoughts, I have been pondering the
earlier remarks by the chairman of | 2:45:10 | 2:45:15 | |
the Select Committee, about what she
is concerned about, the case in | 2:45:15 | 2:45:19 | |
Greece, that children may not be
coming to this country about... | 2:45:19 | 2:45:24 | |
Because of concerns about the rules
and bringing in their parents. Would | 2:45:24 | 2:45:29 | |
he agree that that is something that
would be nice to hear from the | 2:45:29 | 2:45:35 | |
government on? Whether there is an
official Greece government position | 2:45:35 | 2:45:38 | |
as well. I thank my friend for the
intervention and I would hope that | 2:45:38 | 2:45:46 | |
the minister will answer that
specific point when she rises to her | 2:45:46 | 2:45:49 | |
feet later on in this debate, but I
agree with him, and I might come | 2:45:49 | 2:45:54 | |
onto this later in my contribution,
which the other side of the house, | 2:45:54 | 2:46:00 | |
it will be relatively brief. This is
something that potentially needs to | 2:46:00 | 2:46:04 | |
be addressed but I do not think it
addresses the fundamental reasoning | 2:46:04 | 2:46:08 | |
in terms of supporting this bill or
not. As I said, I think this is | 2:46:08 | 2:46:13 | |
about getting the existing
regulations working properly and I | 2:46:13 | 2:46:16 | |
think many would say that they are
not working properly at the moment. | 2:46:16 | 2:46:22 | |
It is also, I should say, about
ensuring that refugees can be | 2:46:22 | 2:46:27 | |
identified, that is the most
important thing and then reunited | 2:46:27 | 2:46:29 | |
with their families when they arrive
safely in Europe. We do reunite | 2:46:29 | 2:46:34 | |
families and I think that is a very
clear point to make. Over the past | 2:46:34 | 2:46:40 | |
five years, 24,700 family reunion of
have been issued. Since 2010, 40 | 2:46:40 | 2:46:48 | |
9830 people have been provided with
protection status in the UK, a | 2:46:48 | 2:46:52 | |
status which means they are | 2:46:52 | 2:47:04 | |
entitled to apply for qualifying
family members to join them. So, | 2:47:07 | 2:47:09 | |
suggestions that somehow our | 2:47:09 | 2:47:11 | |
immigration rules prevent families
from being together simply not true. | 2:47:11 | 2:47:12 | |
Of course, the rules allow for the
partner and dependent children under | 2:47:12 | 2:47:14 | |
the age of 18 to come to the UK and
unaccompanied child refugees are not | 2:47:14 | 2:47:17 | |
allowed to sponsor applications from
family members. Yet, the rules also | 2:47:17 | 2:47:22 | |
provide for scope to grant leave
outside the rules in exceptional | 2:47:22 | 2:47:25 | |
circumstances and I think that is an
important point. This can allow for | 2:47:25 | 2:47:30 | |
dependent children over the age of
18 to be reunited with family | 2:47:30 | 2:47:35 | |
members in the United Kingdom. There
are also... Thank you for giving | 2:47:35 | 2:47:40 | |
way. Exceptional circumstances could
apply to so many of those who have | 2:47:40 | 2:47:46 | |
sought refugee status in the UK. My
dear friend in Oxford, she came to | 2:47:46 | 2:47:53 | |
this country, having converted to
Christianity, in Iran, she was | 2:47:53 | 2:47:56 | |
persecuted and had to leave, but as
a result of getting refugee status | 2:47:56 | 2:48:00 | |
here, the rest of her family now
face equal persecution, some had | 2:48:00 | 2:48:05 | |
been incarcerated and others have
been forced to flee. Is that not an | 2:48:05 | 2:48:10 | |
exceptional circumstance? I thank
the Honourable lady for her | 2:48:10 | 2:48:13 | |
intervention and they do not know
the full situation in terms of that | 2:48:13 | 2:48:16 | |
particular case and I would strongly
advise her to raise that with the | 2:48:16 | 2:48:19 | |
Minister. The wider point I am | 2:48:19 | 2:48:31 | |
making is that there is already a
process, by which the family | 2:48:35 | 2:48:38 | |
reunification route can be taken and
I appreciate her point around | 2:48:38 | 2:48:40 | |
exceptional circumstances and I
would advise her to raise that issue | 2:48:40 | 2:48:42 | |
with the minister. I will come back
to you in a moment, I will make some | 2:48:42 | 2:48:45 | |
progress. I think we need to address
the current system and problems with | 2:48:45 | 2:48:48 | |
the current system before looking at
further legislation. I will come | 2:48:48 | 2:48:50 | |
onto some of the concerns that the
lady raised in a few moments. There | 2:48:50 | 2:48:54 | |
are also resettlement schemes, such
as mandate that can help eligible | 2:48:54 | 2:48:57 | |
refugees with close family ties to
the UK and I also think we need to | 2:48:57 | 2:49:03 | |
recognise that widening eligibility
as this bill does will do nothing to | 2:49:03 | 2:49:07 | |
tackle the refugee crisis in and of
itself. Issues around this bill, | 2:49:07 | 2:49:12 | |
creating a pull factor, that has
been raised by numerous members. I | 2:49:12 | 2:49:16 | |
know that some have put opposing
views to that and I entirely respect | 2:49:16 | 2:49:21 | |
those, but I think it is widely
accepted that push factors of civil | 2:49:21 | 2:49:25 | |
war and persecution are the biggest
single deciding factor in whether | 2:49:25 | 2:49:30 | |
any individual chooses to flee their
country. As long as there is an | 2:49:30 | 2:49:34 | |
stability across the Middle East and
North Africa, then vulnerable people | 2:49:34 | 2:49:37 | |
will choose to continue to flee.
Also, we need to find sustainable | 2:49:37 | 2:49:43 | |
solutions to these problems as well
as supporting those that are | 2:49:43 | 2:49:47 | |
affected. Mr Deputy Speaker, I
believe that everyone in this | 2:49:47 | 2:49:51 | |
chamber wants to ensure that
eligible refugees are able to | 2:49:51 | 2:49:55 | |
reunite with family members in the
United Kingdom and I just think that | 2:49:55 | 2:49:58 | |
there are questions with regards to
the approach that we take and why I | 2:49:58 | 2:50:02 | |
remain to be convinced. I have not
made up my mind and I stress that I | 2:50:02 | 2:50:08 | |
want to listen to the remainder of
the debate. Not wanting to cause | 2:50:08 | 2:50:11 | |
undue discord in a debate which has
been constructive, I have to say | 2:50:11 | 2:50:15 | |
that I think it is somewhat
unhelpful for members of this house | 2:50:15 | 2:50:19 | |
to label colleagues who do not
necessarily feel able to support | 2:50:19 | 2:50:23 | |
this bill today as either lacking
empathy or being cold-hearted, which | 2:50:23 | 2:50:27 | |
has happened but then this chamber
and on social media. I admit, I am | 2:50:27 | 2:50:32 | |
yet to make up my mind on this
issue, on the Dubs Amendment, I made | 2:50:32 | 2:50:37 | |
up my mind midway through the
debate, much to the disappointment | 2:50:37 | 2:50:41 | |
of the government whips office.
People's minds can be changed and it | 2:50:41 | 2:50:45 | |
is not overly helpful to make those
comments about people who have not | 2:50:45 | 2:50:52 | |
yet made up their mind. The content
of the bill, accepting and noting | 2:50:52 | 2:50:58 | |
the contributions of colleagues who
have contributed so far, my concern | 2:50:58 | 2:51:02 | |
around the bill is that it wants to
rapidly widen the eligibility | 2:51:02 | 2:51:07 | |
criteria, while not acknowledging
the wider continuing problems with | 2:51:07 | 2:51:11 | |
the Dublin process or the potential
pool factors that might generate. | 2:51:11 | 2:51:14 | |
What we want to do is make the
Dublin regulations work and we are | 2:51:14 | 2:51:19 | |
investing in our European allies to
ensure that refugees, when they | 2:51:19 | 2:51:22 | |
arrive in Europe can be quickly
processed and family members | 2:51:22 | 2:51:26 | |
identified. That is in my | 2:51:26 | 2:51:38 | |
view the sensible approach and all
the while we are working hard to | 2:51:39 | 2:51:42 | |
resettle 23,000 vulnerable refugees.
I have always felt that we should | 2:51:42 | 2:51:44 | |
react swiftly and decisively in
response to large-scale crisis, such | 2:51:44 | 2:51:46 | |
as the Dubs scheme, which is why I
support, one of only five members on | 2:51:46 | 2:51:49 | |
the side of the House to do so. I do
not think this is the same as | 2:51:49 | 2:51:54 | |
widespread immigration reform. I
welcome this bill and the debate and | 2:51:54 | 2:51:57 | |
I think it has been good with
passionate contributions by numerous | 2:51:57 | 2:52:00 | |
members, I will listen to the
remainder of the debate before | 2:52:00 | 2:52:07 | |
forming a balanced view. It is a
pleasure to follow the honourable | 2:52:07 | 2:52:11 | |
member for Colchester who I know
cares deeply about these issues and | 2:52:11 | 2:52:14 | |
who I hope to persuade in the course
of the remaining debate that this is | 2:52:14 | 2:52:20 | |
a bill that should pass its second
reading. That any concerns he may | 2:52:20 | 2:52:24 | |
have should be dealt with at
committee stage, because that would | 2:52:24 | 2:52:28 | |
be an opportunity to improve the
bill further. I think this is about | 2:52:28 | 2:52:32 | |
putting family at the heart of the
refugee system and family is | 2:52:32 | 2:52:35 | |
something that all of us care about.
In our house, our family is in a | 2:52:35 | 2:52:47 | |
state of chaos because aired who
does all of the cooking is 700 miles | 2:52:47 | 2:52:50 | |
in that direction, while our
18-year-old daughter is 700 miles in | 2:52:50 | 2:52:54 | |
that direction on her first trip
alone abroad. As they are, they are | 2:52:54 | 2:53:00 | |
in safe places, I know they will
come home very soon, but a part of | 2:53:00 | 2:53:04 | |
me as a way with them as well and I
keep checking my phone, particularly | 2:53:04 | 2:53:08 | |
to check that my daughter is OK and
that is what all of us do. Our | 2:53:08 | 2:53:13 | |
families are immensely important to
us. This bill is about what happens | 2:53:13 | 2:53:16 | |
when your family is not safe. About
what happens when your family is not | 2:53:16 | 2:53:21 | |
going to come home again, because
they cannot. It is about | 2:53:21 | 2:53:35 | |
what to go through the most awful
things in the world. When they maybe | 2:53:55 | 2:53:58 | |
have to watch a parent being
murdered or a child being raped, | 2:53:58 | 2:54:00 | |
when they may be have to flee their
homes because their neighbours homes | 2:54:00 | 2:54:03 | |
have been bombed. When they have to
make the most difficult journeys, | 2:54:03 | 2:54:05 | |
face exploitation and trafficking
and abuse along the way and when | 2:54:05 | 2:54:07 | |
some work along that journey, the
family gets split up. We know that | 2:54:07 | 2:54:10 | |
that happens to some many refugees
and we know that it is at that time | 2:54:10 | 2:54:13 | |
when you face the worst of humanity
that you need your family most. You | 2:54:13 | 2:54:16 | |
need those with whom you share a
history, with whom you share all of | 2:54:16 | 2:54:18 | |
that past and relationships even so
much of that history has been ripped | 2:54:18 | 2:54:22 | |
from you and your home has been
ripped from as well. We know that to | 2:54:22 | 2:54:24 | |
build family relationships is one of
the most important things about | 2:54:24 | 2:54:26 | |
being human. Actually, the refugee
scheme and the asylum system is all | 2:54:26 | 2:54:29 | |
about being human and about standing
up for humanity against the worst of | 2:54:29 | 2:54:35 | |
inhumanity, against barbarism,
against persecution, against the war | 2:54:35 | 2:54:38 | |
and conflict that can cause so much
chaos in the lives of families. That | 2:54:38 | 2:54:43 | |
in the end it is all that this bill
is about because at the moment the | 2:54:43 | 2:54:48 | |
current system is not working well
enough to keep refugees together, to | 2:54:48 | 2:54:52 | |
keep families together, when they
face the most difficult of times of | 2:54:52 | 2:54:56 | |
all. It is about the Eritrea and
mother who came here through a legal | 2:54:56 | 2:55:02 | |
settlement scheme, proper managed
scheme, but who cannot bring her | 2:55:02 | 2:55:10 | |
teenaged son because he is a very
tame and cannot be reunited with him | 2:55:10 | 2:55:14 | |
even though she has been through
terrible persecution along the way, | 2:55:14 | 2:55:18 | |
it is about a family from Syria
whose 18-year-old daughter is still | 2:55:18 | 2:55:23 | |
in the Lebanon and they cannot bring
her because she is over 18. The | 2:55:23 | 2:55:29 | |
government has a series of things
that they have set out in response | 2:55:29 | 2:55:33 | |
and other members opposite have in
response and I want to address | 2:55:33 | 2:55:37 | |
those, because I think there should
be a cross-party issue and so many | 2:55:37 | 2:55:41 | |
of the refugee discussions that we
have had in the bars, whether it is | 2:55:41 | 2:55:46 | |
the Dubs Amendment or going back to
the Kindertransport have been | 2:55:46 | 2:55:49 | |
cross-party debate and I think it
should be and could be again. We | 2:55:49 | 2:55:55 | |
need to talk about the bike that the
government might lead us to help | 2:55:55 | 2:55:58 | |
families and refugees in region.
That is excellent work that the | 2:55:58 | 2:56:02 | |
government does. We all wanted to
continue. We also know it is not an | 2:56:02 | 2:56:08 | |
either or and we would not expect
families to continue to be split up | 2:56:08 | 2:56:12 | |
and sufferers simply because we help
a lot more families in the region, | 2:56:12 | 2:56:15 | |
it is not a reason to also help
those. Secondly they say there is | 2:56:15 | 2:56:21 | |
discretion in the system. The
honourable member for Colchester | 2:56:21 | 2:56:25 | |
referred to the Mandate scheme and
others, but they do not work well | 2:56:25 | 2:56:29 | |
enough. In too many cases, the entry
officers use their discretion just | 2:56:29 | 2:56:34 | |
to say no, that nobody has the
resources to overturn that because | 2:56:34 | 2:56:38 | |
there is no legal aid in England to
be able to do with those cases and | 2:56:38 | 2:56:42 | |
because it is just too hard and too
difficult. | 2:56:42 | 2:56:45 | |
The discretion system is not working
at the moment. Would she agree with | 2:56:51 | 2:56:57 | |
me that, having taken refugee
reunion out of scope, that that has | 2:56:57 | 2:57:06 | |
hasn't adverse impact and that all
this Bill is trying to do is | 2:57:06 | 2:57:10 | |
reintroduce something that was there
before. That would be greatly | 2:57:10 | 2:57:15 | |
beneficial to people applying for a
family reunion. He is right. It is | 2:57:15 | 2:57:20 | |
hard for anybody to navigate the
immigration system we have or the | 2:57:20 | 2:57:25 | |
asylum system, but if you are trying
to pull together your family, to not | 2:57:25 | 2:57:29 | |
be able to get any legal aid does
make that so much harder. The next | 2:57:29 | 2:57:35 | |
reason people use is to say, this
will create a cool factor that | 2:57:35 | 2:57:39 | |
somehow this is going to make things
much worse. I think there are three | 2:57:39 | 2:57:44 | |
strong responses against that. The
first is the honourable member for | 2:57:44 | 2:57:50 | |
Broxtowe has clearly argued that
this is only about those who are | 2:57:50 | 2:57:53 | |
refugees. But that tests in the
system already and it's only about | 2:57:53 | 2:57:58 | |
those who have already demonstrated
that they meet all the criteria for | 2:57:58 | 2:58:02 | |
being refugees, they have shown they
have been fleeing persecution of | 2:58:02 | 2:58:06 | |
conflict and it is simply about
their ability to reunite with their | 2:58:06 | 2:58:09 | |
family. Many of them have come
through the legal resettlement | 2:58:09 | 2:58:14 | |
process that we all support, and the
government has rightly brought in | 2:58:14 | 2:58:17 | |
and extended. I give way to the
honourable member who has done so | 2:58:17 | 2:58:22 | |
much work on this. She has
demolished the argument of the idea | 2:58:22 | 2:58:29 | |
of pull factor, because you have to
be a refugee, so that pull factor | 2:58:29 | 2:58:33 | |
argument is dead. He is right on
that the huge tribute to the work he | 2:58:33 | 2:58:38 | |
has been doing. The second argument
is actually that the current system | 2:58:38 | 2:58:43 | |
encourages trafficking. The current
system encourages illegal routes and | 2:58:43 | 2:58:48 | |
dangerous routes, because there is
not a safe and legal route for | 2:58:48 | 2:58:50 | |
people to travel on. So far a family
whose daughter is in London, that I | 2:58:50 | 2:58:57 | |
spoke to some time ago, their
concern was that they would have a | 2:58:57 | 2:59:01 | |
choice about whether or not to try
and find a route through with | 2:59:01 | 2:59:06 | |
smugglers are traffickers, to try
and get to her, to be reunited, | 2:59:06 | 2:59:10 | |
because they did not have a legal
route to be able to do so. We are | 2:59:10 | 2:59:15 | |
already driving people into the arms
of traffickers, into the arms of | 2:59:15 | 2:59:21 | |
exploitation, and we should not do
that. When I was in Georgian, I'm | 2:59:21 | 2:59:26 | |
sure she has had this experience as
well, magnificent efforts are being | 2:59:26 | 2:59:32 | |
made to settle refugees, but I came
across a family where the elderly | 2:59:32 | 2:59:35 | |
parents were going to one country
and the younger son with his wife | 2:59:35 | 2:59:38 | |
and their children... The
grandparents were going to Austria, | 2:59:38 | 2:59:44 | |
and they were going to Canada. At
the best will in the world, they | 2:59:44 | 2:59:49 | |
want to be together. That again
would encourage them to look at the | 2:59:49 | 2:59:52 | |
illegal ways to stay together, which
is what we all want to do with our | 2:59:52 | 2:59:56 | |
families. She is exactly right, and
especially when you have been | 2:59:56 | 3:00:02 | |
through such difficult times and
lost your home that you shared, to | 3:00:02 | 3:00:06 | |
then be separated across the globe
is so much harder, and it is the | 3:00:06 | 3:00:10 | |
time you need most. My third
argument against the pull factor | 3:00:10 | 3:00:16 | |
view that is good forward, which is,
you are effectively saying to | 3:00:16 | 3:00:22 | |
people, you have to suffer more in
order to deter others. Saying to | 3:00:22 | 3:00:27 | |
those who have suffered most already
that they have to suffer more by not | 3:00:27 | 3:00:33 | |
being reunited with their families,
because somehow we are convinced it | 3:00:33 | 3:00:38 | |
might deter some fictional people
who we think are going to respond in | 3:00:38 | 3:00:41 | |
a particular way, when it is not the
evidence to show it. So when you | 3:00:41 | 3:00:46 | |
have real hardship and hacked of
families who are not being reunited, | 3:00:46 | 3:00:51 | |
do not make them suffer more in
order potentially to deter others, | 3:00:51 | 3:00:56 | |
where the evidence is not there. I
thank her for letting the end but | 3:00:56 | 3:01:04 | |
also via outlining the case against
the pull factor. I did not want to | 3:01:04 | 3:01:08 | |
be shouted against, I wanted to hear
arguments. When I was at a refugee | 3:01:08 | 3:01:17 | |
camp, 66% of the camp population is
under 18, and there are about 79 | 3:01:17 | 3:01:22 | |
births each week. The concern is
that, yes there are thousands at the | 3:01:22 | 3:01:26 | |
moment, but as soon as we change our
laws as a population, that is when | 3:01:26 | 3:01:30 | |
the pull factor could come in, by
the steady change. I wonder whether | 3:01:30 | 3:01:34 | |
she could address that concern. I
just don't follow his argument. If | 3:01:34 | 3:01:40 | |
he had basically argued that any
kind of family reunion will somehow | 3:01:40 | 3:01:46 | |
act as the pull factor and therefore
should not happening, then that | 3:01:46 | 3:01:50 | |
would be an argument to have no
family reunion at all, for anybody, | 3:01:50 | 3:01:54 | |
for now husband or wife by anybody.
If that was the most important | 3:01:54 | 3:01:58 | |
thing. But nobody thinks that.
Everyone thinks family reunion is | 3:01:58 | 3:02:03 | |
important and that it is important
to make sure you can keep families | 3:02:03 | 3:02:05 | |
together. The concern I have at the
moment is that families can come | 3:02:05 | 3:02:12 | |
through. If we change the law, it
may well be a very great and the | 3:02:12 | 3:02:16 | |
team will say, I will take that step
and this law will be allowed me to | 3:02:16 | 3:02:20 | |
bring you with me and that is a
concern I have. Perhaps that | 3:02:20 | 3:02:23 | |
clarifies. If he was going to make
that argument convincingly, he would | 3:02:23 | 3:02:29 | |
be making this same argument about
the 19-year-old of the 20th order of | 3:02:29 | 3:02:32 | |
the 30-year-old and the 50-year-old.
The problem is, without the | 3:02:32 | 3:02:37 | |
evidence, and given that...
Remember, other countries across | 3:02:37 | 3:02:42 | |
Europe have these rules in place and
do not see it becoming a pull | 3:02:42 | 3:02:48 | |
factor, to Portland on all sorts of
other countries. I'm very conscious | 3:02:48 | 3:02:54 | |
of time I will give way one more
time, because I think it's an | 3:02:54 | 3:03:00 | |
important point to address. I'm very
grateful to her, because she is | 3:03:00 | 3:03:04 | |
making a cogent argument and that is
what this place is for. She asked | 3:03:04 | 3:03:07 | |
for evidence. My honourable friend
the member for Somerset and Frew | 3:03:07 | 3:03:12 | |
mentioned Germany in 2015 and the
impact the change of policy they | 3:03:12 | 3:03:17 | |
had. But she comment on matters say
if that is evidence one way or the | 3:03:17 | 3:03:21 | |
other? What happened in Germany was
at a time when we had huge migration | 3:03:21 | 3:03:29 | |
out of Syria, huge numbers of people
desperately fleeing Syria, the | 3:03:29 | 3:03:34 | |
height of the conflict. And also, it
is a lack of control in Turkey. Huge | 3:03:34 | 3:03:48 | |
numbers of people were crossing.
Migration of those who are fleeing | 3:03:48 | 3:03:54 | |
should be provided through legal,
safe and settled routes. That is why | 3:03:54 | 3:03:57 | |
I support the government said Ian
resettlement scheme, because it is | 3:03:57 | 3:04:01 | |
better to have legal, secret Santa
have unmanaged or illegal routes | 3:04:01 | 3:04:04 | |
through trafficking and so on. That
must be right, but we can make sure | 3:04:04 | 3:04:09 | |
we have a managed scheme to help
refugees, because that is exactly | 3:04:09 | 3:04:15 | |
what this Bill is all about. It is
about having legal settlement | 3:04:15 | 3:04:21 | |
routes, not about having unmanaged
migrant routes. We also know that if | 3:04:21 | 3:04:24 | |
you do not have those family reunion
resettlement legal routes, that is | 3:04:24 | 3:04:28 | |
when you get people being vulnerable
to traffickers are matters what | 3:04:28 | 3:04:33 | |
increases the illegal journeys and
dangerous journeys. For example, on | 3:04:33 | 3:04:37 | |
all of the visits I took to France,,
every young person I spoke to had | 3:04:37 | 3:04:46 | |
family in Britain. That is why they
were trying to get to Britain, | 3:04:46 | 3:04:52 | |
through these awful, dangerous
routes, because they were trying to | 3:04:52 | 3:04:55 | |
be reunited with family, because
they were trying to be reunited with | 3:04:55 | 3:04:58 | |
people to keep them safe. They were
not trying to make the journey to | 3:04:58 | 3:05:02 | |
bring other people, they were trying
to be reunited. Therefore, the | 3:05:02 | 3:05:07 | |
current system, without that legal
family roots, is what is causing so | 3:05:07 | 3:05:11 | |
many problems. A final point to
conclude. I know many members want | 3:05:11 | 3:05:15 | |
to come in. In the end, this is
about our humanity. All of us | 3:05:15 | 3:05:22 | |
believe that those close
relationships of love, of family, of | 3:05:22 | 3:05:28 | |
commitment, of a sense of
obligation, is at the heart of what | 3:05:28 | 3:05:32 | |
makes us human beings. It is the
heart of who we are, the heart of | 3:05:32 | 3:05:36 | |
the families who brought us into
this place to have debates about | 3:05:36 | 3:05:41 | |
this and argue about issues like
this. We should keep those values of | 3:05:41 | 3:05:46 | |
commitment, of obligation to other,
of love, of respect, of support for | 3:05:46 | 3:05:51 | |
our families, at the heart of our
refugee programme as well. That as | 3:05:51 | 3:05:55 | |
all this Bill tries to do. If you
want to amend it or change it or add | 3:05:55 | 3:06:01 | |
anything, by all means, do it and do
it in committee when we get to that | 3:06:01 | 3:06:07 | |
stage. But please, let's support
families now. I am pleased to follow | 3:06:07 | 3:06:19 | |
her, elegant as ever. I'm pleased to
be able to speak about Britain's | 3:06:19 | 3:06:24 | |
rule and taking in refugees. The
opportunity has been presented | 3:06:24 | 3:06:27 | |
through this Bill, poignantly
debated today. I wanted to say at | 3:06:27 | 3:06:34 | |
the outset, that as a mother with
three children, who are now, I can't | 3:06:34 | 3:06:38 | |
believe it, but they are over 18. I
am very pleased that the government | 3:06:38 | 3:06:48 | |
is listening carefully to concerns
raised on this issue by | 3:06:48 | 3:06:52 | |
non-government organisations and
others and that Home Office | 3:06:52 | 3:06:56 | |
officials are currently reviewing
our approach to family reunion, as | 3:06:56 | 3:07:00 | |
part of the government's wider views
and assessment on asylum and | 3:07:00 | 3:07:06 | |
resettlement policy. Britain has a
very proud history of being a warm, | 3:07:06 | 3:07:13 | |
welcoming country for refugees
fleeing violence, persecution and | 3:07:13 | 3:07:16 | |
oppression and we only country
willing and able to help those in | 3:07:16 | 3:07:18 | |
need. About 0.24% of the population
are refugees and asylum seekers, | 3:07:18 | 3:07:25 | |
that's about 169,000 people. And
Somerset, I am pleased to say over | 3:07:25 | 3:07:31 | |
the years, has of course played its
part. Just one example, in the | 3:07:31 | 3:07:38 | |
1970s, many people who escaped from
Uganda, who were given 90 days to | 3:07:38 | 3:07:42 | |
escape with just anything they could
carry any few bags, thrown out by | 3:07:42 | 3:07:47 | |
Edie and then, many of them came to
Somerset. Over 27,000 people came | 3:07:47 | 3:07:54 | |
altogether, but in Somerset, many
came to camps. Many of those people | 3:07:54 | 3:08:01 | |
have stayed and made their lives at
home in Somerset, in Taunton Deane, | 3:08:01 | 3:08:07 | |
because as we all know, that's a
very fine place to live. We have | 3:08:07 | 3:08:11 | |
welcomed them, we have educated them
and then met just one of the other | 3:08:11 | 3:08:15 | |
day, who came my surgery. When I was
a news reporter for each TV, | 3:08:15 | 3:08:21 | |
interviewing many of those people
who escaped from Kosovo in that | 3:08:21 | 3:08:26 | |
terrible war there. And we welcome
them with open arms to the West | 3:08:26 | 3:08:31 | |
Country. Today, there is no less
call for humanitarian action across | 3:08:31 | 3:08:35 | |
the globe, and the UK has a
commendable record in the Middle | 3:08:35 | 3:08:38 | |
East. By 2020, 20,000 refugees from
Syria will have been resettled in | 3:08:38 | 3:08:45 | |
the UK, half of them have already
arrived. We have a very proud record | 3:08:45 | 3:08:50 | |
on this and in 2016, has been
referred to already by many | 3:08:50 | 3:08:53 | |
honourable members, the UK settled
more refugees from outside Europe | 3:08:53 | 3:08:59 | |
than any other EU state. That is a
brilliant record. According to | 3:08:59 | 3:09:07 | |
statistics, over one third of these
people resettled in the EU, came to | 3:09:07 | 3:09:13 | |
the UK. Back to my own constituency,
the community here has really | 3:09:13 | 3:09:18 | |
stepped up to take refugee family
groups. And although Somerset is not | 3:09:18 | 3:09:22 | |
an established a silent dispersal
area, Somerset County Council has | 3:09:22 | 3:09:27 | |
committed to take dozens of families
over the next three years, and I'm | 3:09:27 | 3:09:31 | |
really proud to support that. The
families are taught English, they | 3:09:31 | 3:09:35 | |
have access to counselling, support
and become a fully fledged member of | 3:09:35 | 3:09:42 | |
our community. That means going to
Brownies, playing Saturday football, | 3:09:42 | 3:09:47 | |
birthday parties, and adults having
access to our local allotments. | 3:09:47 | 3:09:52 | |
Because many of them want to grow
their crops they are used eating. So | 3:09:52 | 3:09:57 | |
we're very, very proud to welcome
them. And the community in Taunton | 3:09:57 | 3:10:01 | |
Deane has been especially welcoming
to families from Syria. Through a | 3:10:01 | 3:10:09 | |
charity established between the
churches, Taunton vineyard and Saint | 3:10:09 | 3:10:16 | |
Mary Magdalen, have successfully
worked with the local authority and | 3:10:16 | 3:10:19 | |
government to resettle a vulnerable
family from Syria in Taunton. The | 3:10:19 | 3:10:23 | |
family continues to receive support.
Volunteers in the community help of | 3:10:23 | 3:10:31 | |
them. They are completely engaged
within our community. I have met | 3:10:31 | 3:10:34 | |
with all these church leaders and
volunteers and I would like to | 3:10:34 | 3:10:37 | |
praise them by the dedicated work. I
will give way. I thank my honourable | 3:10:37 | 3:10:45 | |
friend forgiving way. While we have
not had too much to beat today and | 3:10:45 | 3:10:49 | |
is probably unimportant to talk
about housing restraints and so on, | 3:10:49 | 3:10:54 | |
in terms of accepting refugees, one
thing for which seems to be no | 3:10:54 | 3:10:59 | |
limits on vivacity is a willingness
of our constituents to be a | 3:10:59 | 3:11:04 | |
welcoming group of people to the
refugees across the country. | 3:11:04 | 3:11:16 | |
Governments cannot always achieve
those goals. I thank him for that | 3:11:16 | 3:11:21 | |
comment and did not reiterated more
strongly. In those terms, just as | 3:11:21 | 3:11:27 | |
last month, this charity have been
talking about, has announced the | 3:11:27 | 3:11:31 | |
news that the Home Office has
achieved the resettling of a second | 3:11:31 | 3:11:37 | |
refugee family in Taunton and they
will be very welcome. We must | 3:11:37 | 3:11:39 | |
remember the lasting impact that
welcoming vulnerable families into | 3:11:39 | 3:11:43 | |
the UK may have on our reputation.
And a letter from a father of the | 3:11:43 | 3:11:49 | |
first refugee family settled in
Taunton from Kurdistan. He look this | 3:11:49 | 3:11:53 | |
letter and posted it. | 3:11:53 | 3:12:09 | |
I will give way briefly. Does you
not agree that she is very sick | 3:12:12 | 3:12:19 | |
simply unsuccessfully describing the
benefit that families together have | 3:12:19 | 3:12:22 | |
come as they try and create a life
in this country. And all this Bill | 3:12:22 | 3:12:26 | |
is doing is extending the option for
families to be together, to work in | 3:12:26 | 3:12:32 | |
constituencies and areas and bring
economic benefits all of us. I think | 3:12:32 | 3:12:38 | |
you'll find I'm agreeing with
everything you say that the | 3:12:38 | 3:12:46 | |
government has a tool box in place
and already achieving that, but | 3:12:46 | 3:12:50 | |
that's not to say that isn't an
opportunity to have a look and do | 3:12:50 | 3:12:53 | |
more. I know this government is
already on that particular case and | 3:12:53 | 3:12:56 | |
I hope they're taking notes today. I
know other people want to speak, so | 3:12:56 | 3:13:02 | |
I just wanted to go on to the
vulnerable families. | 3:13:02 | 3:13:12 | |
Sorry, I've done that, that was the
bit about the letters, I got | 3:13:12 | 3:13:17 | |
diverted by my intervention. But I
wanted still straight that we are | 3:13:17 | 3:13:21 | |
willing to take in people and to do
our best for them. I just wanted to | 3:13:21 | 3:13:26 | |
touch though on our current law, to
the point made by the honourable | 3:13:26 | 3:13:30 | |
member. In the last five years, we
have granted 24,000 families reunion | 3:13:30 | 3:13:35 | |
visas and these are free of charge
and free from the eligibility | 3:13:35 | 3:13:40 | |
criteria that usually apply to
family these applications. The law | 3:13:40 | 3:13:44 | |
ensures that those offered refugee
status in Britain are able to bring | 3:13:44 | 3:13:48 | |
their family unit, including
partners and dependent children | 3:13:48 | 3:13:52 | |
under 18. Other relations such as
dependent adults, adopted children | 3:13:52 | 3:13:57 | |
and post-fight family members are
rightly subject to different these | 3:13:57 | 3:14:02 | |
criteria such as fund and knowledge
of English. However, if applicable, | 3:14:02 | 3:14:08 | |
for instance, dependent children of
the age of 18, applicants may be | 3:14:08 | 3:14:13 | |
granted outside of the central rules
and in serious circumstances the law | 3:14:13 | 3:14:17 | |
allows for extended family members
to sponsor children. And it is right | 3:14:17 | 3:14:21 | |
that these exemptions are in place
and indeed they are used properly. | 3:14:21 | 3:14:26 | |
So I'm going to press on to be
clear, Mr Deputy Speaker. A great | 3:14:26 | 3:14:30 | |
deal of thought and attention has
gone into the system. The Government | 3:14:30 | 3:14:34 | |
is fully committed to implement
section 67 of the immigration act | 3:14:34 | 3:14:38 | |
2016. Ministers, as we have heard,
honourable members have visited | 3:14:38 | 3:14:44 | |
Greece and Italy to discuss
processes, taking into account | 3:14:44 | 3:14:47 | |
relevant national laws applicable in
implementing the scheme. The | 3:14:47 | 3:14:50 | |
Government have also invited
referrals of eligible children from | 3:14:50 | 3:14:55 | |
France, Greece, Italy and we are
working to ensure the safe | 3:14:55 | 3:14:59 | |
identification and transfer of
eligible children. And in | 3:14:59 | 3:15:02 | |
partnership with the UN refugee
agency operating numerous schemes, | 3:15:02 | 3:15:06 | |
many have been referred to already
such as Gateway, mandate, children | 3:15:06 | 3:15:11 | |
at risk and the vulnerable persons
relocation scheme to ensure that | 3:15:11 | 3:15:14 | |
those in most need are able to find
a secure home. The children at risk | 3:15:14 | 3:15:19 | |
scheme alone will be able to
resettle 3000 children and their | 3:15:19 | 3:15:23 | |
families from the Middle East and
North Africa over the course of this | 3:15:23 | 3:15:26 | |
Parliament. But in addition, this
has been referred to before, this | 3:15:26 | 3:15:30 | |
Government has an ongoing commitment
under the Dublin regulation and | 3:15:30 | 3:15:34 | |
continues to work closely with
member states and relevant partners | 3:15:34 | 3:15:36 | |
to ensure that children with
qualifying family in the UK can be | 3:15:36 | 3:15:41 | |
transferred quickly and safely to
have their asylum claim determined | 3:15:41 | 3:15:45 | |
in the UK. We are a country who
takes our moral obligations very | 3:15:45 | 3:15:49 | |
seriously and we wants to contribute
to making the world better place, | 3:15:49 | 3:15:57 | |
and it is important in our
generosity that we do not | 3:15:57 | 3:16:01 | |
inadvertently create circumstances
which would harm some of our most | 3:16:01 | 3:16:04 | |
vulnerable. We do not want to
encourage children to undertake | 3:16:04 | 3:16:09 | |
dangerous journeys hoping relatives
can join them later and fall prey to | 3:16:09 | 3:16:15 | |
human traffickers, which sadly
happens all too often. I'm going to | 3:16:15 | 3:16:18 | |
press on because all of these
honourable members have audit had | 3:16:18 | 3:16:21 | |
their say. We know that there are
unfortunately criminal gangs who | 3:16:21 | 3:16:27 | |
will shamelessly exploit the
vulnerable for profit and we should | 3:16:27 | 3:16:30 | |
be careful not in anyway to feed
these activities. We should agree | 3:16:30 | 3:16:35 | |
that international protection must
be claimed the first safe country | 3:16:35 | 3:16:40 | |
refugee reaches, this is the fastest
possible route. Current criteria | 3:16:40 | 3:16:43 | |
aims to strike the balance in aiding
thousands of people each year to be | 3:16:43 | 3:16:48 | |
reunited with their families in the
UK without putting the most | 3:16:48 | 3:16:52 | |
vulnerable at risk. I am pleased
that because legal aid has been | 3:16:52 | 3:16:59 | |
raised, the Lord Chancellor is
undertaking a review of legal aid | 3:16:59 | 3:17:02 | |
which will include a re-evaluation
of the changes to the scope of legal | 3:17:02 | 3:17:07 | |
aid that immigration cases and it
will report back next year. I'm | 3:17:07 | 3:17:10 | |
going to press on because I'm...
I've almost come to the end. What | 3:17:10 | 3:17:18 | |
I'm bothered about, you have
colleagues as well, who want to | 3:17:18 | 3:17:21 | |
speak, you're now on 12 minutes.
What I'm trying to say is we need to | 3:17:21 | 3:17:25 | |
get other members in as well. I am
winding up... I will wind... I am | 3:17:25 | 3:17:35 | |
winding everybody up. I'm going to
cut to my conclusion, then. I wanted | 3:17:35 | 3:17:42 | |
to say that... | 3:17:42 | 3:17:53 | |
We don't bully people. Bullyboys. I
will go back to the fact that what | 3:17:56 | 3:18:01 | |
we need to do is focus our effort in
particular in ensuring peace and | 3:18:01 | 3:18:07 | |
stability in the world. People
actually don't want to leave their | 3:18:07 | 3:18:12 | |
homes. What they really want is
peace. And what they really want if | 3:18:12 | 3:18:16 | |
you ask any of them is to stay in
their own country and this is what | 3:18:16 | 3:18:21 | |
this country, with its humanitarian
aid and its overseas spending budget | 3:18:21 | 3:18:25 | |
is determined as a first priority to
do and certainly to help with. The | 3:18:25 | 3:18:32 | |
UK does not back away from our
obligations, pledging £2.46 billion | 3:18:32 | 3:18:37 | |
of aid to Syria, and this commitment
to spend .7% of our economy on | 3:18:37 | 3:18:44 | |
international aid. But we must work
with our partners across the world, | 3:18:44 | 3:18:47 | |
we must work with all our colleagues
across the benches, but our answer | 3:18:47 | 3:18:51 | |
must strike the balance between our
will to shoulder our responsibility | 3:18:51 | 3:18:58 | |
and not encouraging a situation
which would cause more so suffering. | 3:18:58 | 3:19:02 | |
We need to deal with the root causes
of the refugee crisis. Importantly, | 3:19:02 | 3:19:06 | |
I'm winding up, it is crucial, it is
crucial that all existing | 3:19:06 | 3:19:12 | |
regulations in our tool box must be
used and working effectively and | 3:19:12 | 3:19:18 | |
eloquently, which was referred to by
my right honourable friend for | 3:19:18 | 3:19:22 | |
Colchester, and I fully support his
words. Finally, as I mentioned in my | 3:19:22 | 3:19:26 | |
opening, this Government does have a
fine record of refugees already but | 3:19:26 | 3:19:30 | |
it is fully aware there are areas
that might be improved. -- a fine | 3:19:30 | 3:19:37 | |
record on refugees. Which is why we
are reviewing legal aid and why the | 3:19:37 | 3:19:42 | |
Government is listening carefully to
non-government NGOs and others in | 3:19:42 | 3:19:45 | |
their commitment to a wider review
of our approach to family reunion, | 3:19:45 | 3:19:50 | |
asylum and resettlement policy, and
I know that they will continue to | 3:19:50 | 3:19:54 | |
build on our approach, which fully
supports our humanitarian | 3:19:54 | 3:19:57 | |
principles. I welcome the discussion
and the debates that has ensued. I | 3:19:57 | 3:20:06 | |
trust that notes are being made, Mr
Deputy Speaker, on this side of the | 3:20:06 | 3:20:10 | |
bench. But I, like my honourable
friend from Colchester, will | 3:20:10 | 3:20:14 | |
continue to listen to the wider
debate and then I will make up my | 3:20:14 | 3:20:17 | |
mind. We won't be able to listen to
anything if you carry on as long! I | 3:20:17 | 3:20:24 | |
will try to be brief because the
important thing today is that this | 3:20:24 | 3:20:27 | |
bill passes, so I will pay tribute
to honourable member, and everyone | 3:20:27 | 3:20:36 | |
else who's here on Friday. This is
my fourth Friday in 13 years because | 3:20:36 | 3:20:41 | |
this bill matters. It really
matters, it is a chance and a test. | 3:20:41 | 3:20:45 | |
It is a test of our support and a
test of our support for the people | 3:20:45 | 3:20:51 | |
who need it most. It is a test of
our ability to act with compassion | 3:20:51 | 3:20:55 | |
and common sense. It is not a hard
test. It is not hard because this is | 3:20:55 | 3:21:00 | |
a modest and tightly defined piece
of common-sense legislation. Let's | 3:21:00 | 3:21:06 | |
be clear, the changes in this bill
would mean to the refugee children | 3:21:06 | 3:21:10 | |
who are already here in the United
Kingdom. These are children who have | 3:21:10 | 3:21:16 | |
experienced unimaginable things but
nevertheless, I want you to try to | 3:21:16 | 3:21:20 | |
imagine. What set of circumstances
might have to happen to your family, | 3:21:20 | 3:21:28 | |
your family, that might mean that
fleeing across land and sea, risking | 3:21:28 | 3:21:34 | |
your family becoming permanently
separated, what horrific set of | 3:21:34 | 3:21:37 | |
circumstances would make that
danger, that misery and separation | 3:21:37 | 3:21:41 | |
preferable to staying put, and then
imagine how you would want your | 3:21:41 | 3:21:48 | |
children, your family, to be treated
at the end of your journey. Imagine | 3:21:48 | 3:21:54 | |
that, that century, that kindness
that goes with it, and then be very, | 3:21:54 | 3:21:58 | |
very clear that that must be the
model for how we treat families | 3:21:58 | 3:22:03 | |
today. Separated children, refugee
children in the United Kingdom have | 3:22:03 | 3:22:08 | |
audit overcome threats and danger in
their own communities, they happens | 3:22:08 | 3:22:11 | |
that from their families in their
rush to find somewhere, anywhere | 3:22:11 | 3:22:14 | |
safe and then have been forced
through a terrifying journey through | 3:22:14 | 3:22:20 | |
sea and land to Europe, journeys we
know have claimed hundreds of | 3:22:20 | 3:22:24 | |
children's lives. These children are
here right now, living in our | 3:22:24 | 3:22:29 | |
communities alongside us, asking us
today to step up and reunite them | 3:22:29 | 3:22:33 | |
with their families. This bill will
allow them a future with their | 3:22:33 | 3:22:36 | |
families instead of being separated
from them. It will mean children | 3:22:36 | 3:22:40 | |
growing up with their parents where
they should be, at their side, | 3:22:40 | 3:22:43 | |
rather than the thing with the
constant worry about the fate of | 3:22:43 | 3:22:48 | |
their families, stranded and out of
reach. This bill simply makes that | 3:22:48 | 3:22:55 | |
possible. Let's not lose sight of
who these refugee children are, the | 3:22:55 | 3:22:59 | |
biggest groups seeking help in the
UK last year were from Eritrea and | 3:22:59 | 3:23:04 | |
Sudan, two countries torn apart by
generations of civil war and | 3:23:04 | 3:23:07 | |
violence. Eritrea, were boys can be
conscripted into the Army aged 16, | 3:23:07 | 3:23:13 | |
sent off to kill and be killed at
the whim of their Government, or | 3:23:13 | 3:23:17 | |
they are sent away from their
families as child conscripts to | 3:23:17 | 3:23:21 | |
serve wherever they are positive,
cut off from when they are barely | 3:23:21 | 3:23:28 | |
high school age. Saddam, were
hundreds of families are starved of | 3:23:28 | 3:23:31 | |
food and basic medical supplies. --
Sudan. For many parents and their | 3:23:31 | 3:23:38 | |
children, this is how life has been,
ordinarily has been for years. These | 3:23:38 | 3:23:41 | |
are children who have started life
with the worst possible deal. Let's | 3:23:41 | 3:23:47 | |
today give them a better deal, this
bill won't just assert the right of | 3:23:47 | 3:23:53 | |
children to sponsor their families
to join them, something which is | 3:23:53 | 3:23:57 | |
itself long overdue. It also brings
immigration laws into line with the | 3:23:57 | 3:24:01 | |
real life. The roles need to be as
flexible as families themselves, | 3:24:01 | 3:24:06 | |
that parents can be reunited with
some butter not love their children, | 3:24:06 | 3:24:09 | |
that younger siblings can be brought
to safety but older siblings may be | 3:24:09 | 3:24:15 | |
left behind, it is a shocking
anomaly. At the moment, the rules | 3:24:15 | 3:24:19 | |
obsess over age. If a child falls at
the wrong side of their 18th | 3:24:19 | 3:24:24 | |
birthday when their parents become
refugees, the parents have no right | 3:24:24 | 3:24:27 | |
to bring them here and they will be
left in danger. Can we agree that | 3:24:27 | 3:24:31 | |
common sense and compassion should
take the place of pedantry? This | 3:24:31 | 3:24:35 | |
really isn't, I wouldn't give way
because we need to get done, sorry, | 3:24:35 | 3:24:39 | |
this really isn't a question of age.
It is a question family. It is | 3:24:39 | 3:24:42 | |
difficult to imagine any thing more
agonising for any parent that they | 3:24:42 | 3:24:49 | |
can keep some of their children safe
but not all of them. It is ludicrous | 3:24:49 | 3:24:53 | |
that this should be in the
immigration laws, I welcome the | 3:24:53 | 3:24:56 | |
commitment in this bill to change
them. But common sense is missing | 3:24:56 | 3:25:00 | |
when it comes to the Home Office
stopping any specialist legal | 3:25:00 | 3:25:03 | |
supporters the right honourable
member was trying to make the point | 3:25:03 | 3:25:05 | |
just earlier, as if uniting refugee
families is simple and | 3:25:05 | 3:25:12 | |
straightforward, I disagree. Of
course those families need that | 3:25:12 | 3:25:15 | |
specialist support. Hopefully, this
bill and a discussion that comes | 3:25:15 | 3:25:19 | |
with it will help us take another
look at the legal aid available one | 3:25:19 | 3:25:23 | |
refugees are trying to reunite
across continents and war zones. | 3:25:23 | 3:25:25 | |
Immensely briefly. Immensely
briefly, just to say, do you agree | 3:25:25 | 3:25:32 | |
that we should be thanking the
lawyers across the country who do | 3:25:32 | 3:25:35 | |
this work pro bono to help those who
need it the most? I agree with | 3:25:35 | 3:25:41 | |
everything that was just sad. It is
not simply a process that involves | 3:25:41 | 3:25:45 | |
DNA testing and legal wrangling over
birth certificates. Many have seen | 3:25:45 | 3:25:52 | |
in their own constituencies just how
contributed this can become, leaving | 3:25:52 | 3:25:56 | |
the most vulnerable in our society
to navigate the system on their own | 3:25:56 | 3:25:59 | |
is deeply unfair. There is one less
reason to commend this bill. During | 3:25:59 | 3:26:04 | |
the writing by refugee families just
happens also to mean that we do the | 3:26:04 | 3:26:08 | |
right thing by our country'sfuture.
After the horrors these children | 3:26:08 | 3:26:12 | |
haven't heard and escaped from, I
want us to think not just of the | 3:26:12 | 3:26:15 | |
pain of the past but the potential
of what could come next. These are | 3:26:15 | 3:26:22 | |
not just the product of their
horrific experiences, they will also | 3:26:22 | 3:26:26 | |
become part of our shared future. It
is an ever body's interests that | 3:26:26 | 3:26:30 | |
refugee children head off into their
adult lives confident and integrated | 3:26:30 | 3:26:36 | |
into British society, committed to
making the most of the opportunities | 3:26:36 | 3:26:39 | |
ahead. We all know that the kindest
and most effective way of making the | 3:26:39 | 3:26:43 | |
best of their futures is to reunite
them with their families. So let's | 3:26:43 | 3:26:49 | |
pass this test, dismissed the
excuses and do what is right, | 3:26:49 | 3:26:52 | |
support this bill. | 3:26:52 | 3:26:58 | |
It is a great pleasure to follow the
Right Honourable gentleman and to | 3:26:58 | 3:27:05 | |
follow so many other speeches. I
congratulate the sponsor of this | 3:27:05 | 3:27:11 | |
Bill. I understand the difficulties
of piloting Private members Bill | 3:27:11 | 3:27:22 | |
through this chamber, having myself
got through to the third reading on | 3:27:22 | 3:27:26 | |
the presentation Bill before it fell
and failed at that particular | 3:27:26 | 3:27:29 | |
hurdle. At the outset, I will say
it's not my intention to do is team | 3:27:29 | 3:27:35 | |
this chamber for a long time.
Despite the disappointing cries from | 3:27:35 | 3:27:39 | |
the benches opposite, that are still
12 points I want to make. I | 3:27:39 | 3:27:43 | |
congratulate him on bringing this
serious subject to the floor of the | 3:27:43 | 3:27:49 | |
house, particularly in this week,
which has seen the crisis in Syria, | 3:27:49 | 3:27:55 | |
the war in Syria, enter its eighth
year. We heard from the Ambassador | 3:27:55 | 3:28:03 | |
to Jordan, a country that has seen
many of the refugees fleeing to | 3:28:03 | 3:28:08 | |
security there and he updated us
that there are 740,000 Syrian | 3:28:08 | 3:28:14 | |
refugees in the camps in Jordan,
100,000 others. He also talked about | 3:28:14 | 3:28:23 | |
the assessments being made by the
UNHCR... Members on this side of the | 3:28:23 | 3:28:33 | |
house quite rightly raised a very
important point. What happens if an | 3:28:33 | 3:28:40 | |
18-year-old in a refugee camp in
Jordan were to decide to come here | 3:28:40 | 3:28:44 | |
in order to take advantage of this
act and therefore get his family | 3:28:44 | 3:28:50 | |
over, using this act? Would he agree
with me that that scenario simply | 3:28:50 | 3:28:54 | |
could not happen, because somebody
from Syria would be in Jordan as a | 3:28:54 | 3:29:00 | |
place of refuge. If they were then
to enter into this country | 3:29:00 | 3:29:03 | |
illegally, they could not be deemed
to be a refugee and therefore, they | 3:29:03 | 3:29:07 | |
could not use this act, if the Bill
is successful. Would he agree with | 3:29:07 | 3:29:16 | |
me that that dispels the concern
that other members have raised about | 3:29:16 | 3:29:22 | |
the exploitation, if you like, of
this excellence legislation. I am | 3:29:22 | 3:29:28 | |
grateful for that intervention. I
heard you mention that point | 3:29:28 | 3:29:30 | |
earlier, but I don't think anyone
else in the chamber has raised that | 3:29:30 | 3:29:33 | |
issue as yet. I'd like to hear from
the minister whether her | 3:29:33 | 3:29:36 | |
interpretation is right. She's right
that on the face of the billboard is | 3:29:36 | 3:29:41 | |
the mention of the word refugee,
therefore she has raised a perfectly | 3:29:41 | 3:29:47 | |
sensible point and I look forward to
the Minister & Matt in detail. I | 3:29:47 | 3:29:52 | |
will turn to my concerns about the
pull factor, because despite cries | 3:29:52 | 3:29:55 | |
from the benches opposite, these are
legitimate points to raise. Although | 3:29:55 | 3:30:00 | |
she pulls a slight face at that
remark, I think there are legitimate | 3:30:00 | 3:30:06 | |
concerns to raise. I will address
them was briefly... He has to be | 3:30:06 | 3:30:17 | |
clear. The idea of the pull factor
cannot happen, because a person has | 3:30:17 | 3:30:21 | |
to be deemed a refugee. All we are
doing is giving underage teens in | 3:30:21 | 3:30:24 | |
the same rate as adults would have.
If the pull factor is anywhere, it | 3:30:24 | 3:30:29 | |
exists with adults, you can now come
legally. The pull factor does not | 3:30:29 | 3:30:33 | |
exist and the honourable gentleman
has to move away from that. You have | 3:30:33 | 3:30:37 | |
to be a refugee. You can only do it
if you are refugee and that is | 3:30:37 | 3:30:44 | |
something the government will be
dancing. I understand. It's similar | 3:30:44 | 3:30:47 | |
to the point she made. I still want
to address it, because I still think | 3:30:47 | 3:30:53 | |
it is a real concern that people
have raised. I will certainly give | 3:30:53 | 3:30:58 | |
way. As he read the House of Lords
EU select committee report from | 3:30:58 | 3:31:05 | |
2016? They found absolutely no
evidence to support the argument of | 3:31:05 | 3:31:09 | |
the pull factor, and on the
contrary, they said that if there | 3:31:09 | 3:31:13 | |
was a pull factor, such as he has
described, you would expect to see | 3:31:13 | 3:31:17 | |
evidence of it happening in other
member states of the EU who | 3:31:17 | 3:31:22 | |
participate in the family
reunification director. That is no | 3:31:22 | 3:31:25 | |
such evidence. Does he agree that we
should proceed on the basal evidence | 3:31:25 | 3:31:28 | |
here and not myth? Firstly, no, I
have not seen the report, but I did | 3:31:28 | 3:31:37 | |
hear her intervention. I think it is
worth me answering if she can listen | 3:31:37 | 3:31:40 | |
to the answer. Point of order. Can I
move that the question been output? | 3:31:40 | 3:31:52 | |
Does the Minister wish to commend?
In which case, I think we will come | 3:31:52 | 3:31:56 | |
to the question. We may as well
clear of the lobbies! | 3:31:56 | 3:32:17 | |
The question is, as many of that
opinion saying aye, as many who say | 3:33:00 | 3:33:08 | |
no. | 3:33:08 | 3:33:18 | |
The | 3:40:16 | 3:40:19 | |
wok or donors! | 3:40:23 | 3:40:33 | |
Lock the doors! | 3:40:35 | 3:40:45 | |
Order. Order. 149, 42. | 3:46:19 | 3:46:28 | |
Thank you. To the right, 129, the
noes to the left, 42, the ayes have | 3:46:31 | 3:46:41 | |
it, the ayes have it. The bill will
now be read a second time is the | 3:46:41 | 3:46:54 | |
question, I think the ayes have it,
the ayes have it. APPLAUSE | 3:46:54 | 3:47:14 | |
All right, I think we want to get
onto the next bill as well, so we | 3:47:14 | 3:47:18 | |
need to move on. I think Mr McDonald
will be on to me if we don't make | 3:47:18 | 3:47:22 | |
some progress, we call on the Clark.
-- clerk. We call Stuart McDonald to | 3:47:22 | 3:47:35 | |
make the second reading. Thank you
very much, Mr Deputy Speaker, I beg | 3:47:35 | 3:47:40 | |
to move that the unpaid trials work
Bill Prohibition Bill be now read a | 3:47:40 | 3:47:45 | |
second time and in moving, in moving
the bill this afternoon, I would | 3:47:45 | 3:47:48 | |
like to begin by thanking all of
those honourable members who | 3:47:48 | 3:47:54 | |
sponsored the bill at its outset, I
would like to thank the many | 3:47:54 | 3:47:58 | |
organisations including people like
the Scottish trade union Congress, | 3:47:58 | 3:48:01 | |
the better than zero campaign,
Thompsons solicitors, Jolie welcome | 3:48:01 | 3:48:08 | |
QC and various others for taking the
time to take the drafting of the | 3:48:08 | 3:48:16 | |
bill, but there is one person above
all I would like to thank. -- Jolyon | 3:48:16 | 3:48:19 | |
Maugham. That is my magnificent
researcher, Keith Thompson, who has | 3:48:19 | 3:48:23 | |
pulled a shift and a half, a page
shift and a half(!) LAUGHTER | 3:48:23 | 3:48:27 | |
... To bring this to the floor. To
this afternoon. Right honourable and | 3:48:27 | 3:48:34 | |
honourable members will know that
the bill does enjoy support from all | 3:48:34 | 3:48:39 | |
of the parties in this house, with
the exception of the Democratic | 3:48:39 | 3:48:43 | |
Unionist Party but I don't wish to
indulge on that lowly fact at the | 3:48:43 | 3:48:47 | |
moment. Surprise, surprise. Because
unfortunately, my overdraft did not | 3:48:47 | 3:48:53 | |
extend to that. It will also be
known to honourable and right | 3:48:53 | 3:48:59 | |
honourable members that yesterday,
the polling company YouGov published | 3:48:59 | 3:49:02 | |
a poll showing that 65% of the
public believe that unpaid trial | 3:49:02 | 3:49:08 | |
work is unfair. A clear majority of
people across the United Kingdom | 3:49:08 | 3:49:14 | |
looking for this Parliament to do
what I believe it has to do in | 3:49:14 | 3:49:22 | |
correcting law as it currently
stands. That is the opportunity that | 3:49:22 | 3:49:25 | |
sits before us here, did the
honourable gentleman wish... It is | 3:49:25 | 3:49:29 | |
unlike him, but there we go. I will
certainly give way. I'm grateful to | 3:49:29 | 3:49:35 | |
the honourable member for giving
South, and congratulate him on | 3:49:35 | 3:49:38 | |
bringing this bill, time is short,
we know how Friday shenanigans can | 3:49:38 | 3:49:42 | |
sometimes work, given the high level
of public support, and cross-party | 3:49:42 | 3:49:46 | |
support, does he not agree with me
that it is incumbent on the | 3:49:46 | 3:49:50 | |
government and members opposite to
make sure this bill passes second | 3:49:50 | 3:49:53 | |
reading before we adjourn? The
honourable member knows, and | 3:49:53 | 3:49:58 | |
honourable members opposite will
know that I wish to be a | 3:49:58 | 3:50:00 | |
constructive voice in this
Parliament, it is a good bill. It | 3:50:00 | 3:50:06 | |
may not be a perfect bill, which is
why it should go to the committee | 3:50:06 | 3:50:11 | |
stage, so that we can make good law,
if we are not here as legislators to | 3:50:11 | 3:50:17 | |
make good law, then what is the
point of this Parliament? While my | 3:50:17 | 3:50:21 | |
political career rests on that
question... Whilst I am here, I | 3:50:21 | 3:50:25 | |
would like to make some use of the
time. I agree with what he has to | 3:50:25 | 3:50:33 | |
say. With support across the
benches, Mr Deputy Speaker, with | 3:50:33 | 3:50:37 | |
great support enjoyed amongst the
public, I do think that we should | 3:50:37 | 3:50:40 | |
give the bill a second reading. I
wish to aggregate for members while | 3:50:40 | 3:50:45 | |
I believe and why so many others
believe that the law does need to be | 3:50:45 | 3:50:49 | |
changed. It is, as I understand it,
the government's view that unpaid | 3:50:49 | 3:50:55 | |
trial shifts are currently already
unlawful. It is the government's | 3:50:55 | 3:50:59 | |
view that these practices are
covered by the national minimum wage | 3:50:59 | 3:51:05 | |
act. 20 years old this year, and
undoubtably, a fine piece of | 3:51:05 | 3:51:09 | |
legislation to. But I do believe
that it is insufficient when it | 3:51:09 | 3:51:14 | |
comes to dealing with the issue of
an unpaid trial shift. -- | 3:51:14 | 3:51:18 | |
legislation too. I don't think it
meant to be inefficient in that | 3:51:18 | 3:51:22 | |
respect but we have the opportunity
here to put it right, in 20 years of | 3:51:22 | 3:51:26 | |
the national minimum wage act, there
hasn't been a single tribunal, there | 3:51:26 | 3:51:29 | |
hasn't been a single fine issued,
there hasn't been a single | 3:51:29 | 3:51:36 | |
prosecution or naming and shaming or
ticking off of anyone for the use of | 3:51:36 | 3:51:40 | |
an unpaid trial shifts. Which only
feeds into the fact that the | 3:51:40 | 3:51:45 | |
government, the courts, the trade
unions, don't hold any statistics on | 3:51:45 | 3:51:50 | |
unpaid trial shifts, but it is
something that we all know is taking | 3:51:50 | 3:52:00 | |
place. I happily give way. Thank you
Mr Deputy Speaker. I think I am in | 3:52:00 | 3:52:03 | |
support of this bill... But can I
just clarify, with the honourable | 3:52:03 | 3:52:05 | |
gentleman, that this doesn't
apply... This is unpaid trial for a | 3:52:05 | 3:52:10 | |
job bill, it is not unpaid when you
have, say, a sixth former coming | 3:52:10 | 3:52:18 | |
into your office for a while? If we
can just have that clarified so | 3:52:18 | 3:52:22 | |
everyone is clear. I think every six
former should have the chance to | 3:52:22 | 3:52:26 | |
work in the honourable gentleman's
office as work experience and I | 3:52:26 | 3:52:31 | |
would not dream of seeking to rob
any of them in wishing to do that! | 3:52:31 | 3:52:35 | |
LAUGHTER
On a serious note, this is not about | 3:52:35 | 3:52:39 | |
work experience, work experience is
a good thing, volunteering is a good | 3:52:39 | 3:52:41 | |
thing, this does not concern itself
with volunteering, and it is not | 3:52:41 | 3:52:47 | |
concern itself with internships,
because I believe that would require | 3:52:47 | 3:52:50 | |
its own piece of legislation. I want
to come back to internships because | 3:52:50 | 3:52:54 | |
I know the Minister has announced
some government initiative on that | 3:52:54 | 3:52:58 | |
earlier. | 3:52:58 | 3:53:08 | |
How do we sort out the situation
where someone comes in as work | 3:53:11 | 3:53:16 | |
experience, and subsequently is
employed? I know this can happen, it | 3:53:16 | 3:53:18 | |
is a good thing, that someone comes
into an office environment, they | 3:53:18 | 3:53:23 | |
enjoy the role, weeks, days, months
later, they find themselves | 3:53:23 | 3:53:27 | |
employed, how do we make sure we do
not penalising lawyers? I don't know | 3:53:27 | 3:53:32 | |
if the honourable gentleman has read
the bill, I know him to be diligent | 3:53:32 | 3:53:36 | |
and by sure that he has, but I will
come to where we ensure there is not | 3:53:36 | 3:53:39 | |
cross hairs. That said, I want to
make progress highlighting where | 3:53:39 | 3:53:44 | |
this happens quite a lot, I happily
give way briefly. Would you agree | 3:53:44 | 3:53:48 | |
with me that there is a small
number, perhaps only a small number | 3:53:48 | 3:53:51 | |
of companies, where one try list is
replaced with another and so on and | 3:53:51 | 3:53:56 | |
it is just a way of free employment.
-- one trialist. Anticipate where I | 3:53:56 | 3:54:04 | |
am going, but going to the previous
point, in hospitality and retail | 3:54:04 | 3:54:08 | |
where this is known to be a
widespread practice, not as juicy by | 3:54:08 | 3:54:11 | |
any means but it happens there
rather a lot, there is a difference | 3:54:11 | 3:54:14 | |
in what people do whereby if they
apply for a job, and let's say for | 3:54:14 | 3:54:19 | |
example it is to be a barrister in a
copy shop, a cocktail make in a | 3:54:19 | 3:54:24 | |
hotel bar, if they can demonstrate
that they can do the things they | 3:54:24 | 3:54:26 | |
have said they can do that is fine.
-- barista. The difference is, | 3:54:26 | 3:54:30 | |
between that and a trial shifts,
where I am asked, as the applicant, | 3:54:30 | 3:54:35 | |
to work alongside someone on a
shift, doing the same job they are | 3:54:35 | 3:54:39 | |
doing, but not being paid for it
whilst they are being paid for it. | 3:54:39 | 3:54:43 | |
It is that reason that I think the
current law is efficient in dealing | 3:54:43 | 3:54:47 | |
with that, the government says. But
as the honourable gentleman from the | 3:54:47 | 3:54:51 | |
Labour bench mentioned, what can too
often happen, Mr Deputy Speaker, is | 3:54:51 | 3:54:57 | |
that a company advertises an unpaid
trial ship, in some cases that can | 3:54:57 | 3:55:01 | |
be two or three years, in some of
the more extreme cases, in fact the | 3:55:01 | 3:55:05 | |
case that first brought this to my
attention, it was 40 hours, | 3:55:05 | 3:55:09 | |
yesterday, the BBC interviewed
someone who worked four weeks of | 3:55:09 | 3:55:14 | |
unpaid trial work, and here is the
deeply cynical element, in a lot of | 3:55:14 | 3:55:18 | |
cases, there is not actually a job
to give the person, this is about | 3:55:18 | 3:55:23 | |
covering sickness, staff shortages,
busy periods over Christmas, wedding | 3:55:23 | 3:55:27 | |
seasons in hotels, that is worth the
law is inefficient in preventing | 3:55:27 | 3:55:31 | |
that exploitation. I will give way
to my honourable friend. I'd usually | 3:55:31 | 3:55:36 | |
commend my honourable friend for
bringing forward this proposal and | 3:55:36 | 3:55:38 | |
for the way he is proposing it,
which is very strong and erudite, | 3:55:38 | 3:55:42 | |
isn't the greatest tragedy here, the
people that he talks about, most | 3:55:42 | 3:55:47 | |
often, the people exploited are
those with learning disabilities, | 3:55:47 | 3:55:49 | |
who are desperate, desperate for
work and see these as their only | 3:55:49 | 3:55:54 | |
opportunity, and that is one of the
key reasons why this bill must pass. | 3:55:54 | 3:55:58 | |
He makes a very good point, too
often, if you will allow me to | 3:55:58 | 3:56:02 | |
answer that point, too often, Mr
Deputy Speaker, that is what | 3:56:02 | 3:56:07 | |
happens, and the people who fall
victim to this are those who either | 3:56:07 | 3:56:09 | |
do not know their rights and cannot
stand up for them, or those who are | 3:56:09 | 3:56:13 | |
unwilling to challenge employers, on
their rights, because they are in | 3:56:13 | 3:56:18 | |
fear of losing their job. This
practice it's the lowest paid, and | 3:56:18 | 3:56:22 | |
the lowest skilled in the economy,
and this is a bill to protect the | 3:56:22 | 3:56:27 | |
lowest skilled and the lowest paid.
-- this practice hits. | 3:56:27 | 3:56:32 | |
Can I congratulate him along with
most of the members of this house on | 3:56:37 | 3:56:40 | |
bringing this bill before us today
but we just had National | 3:56:40 | 3:56:44 | |
apprenticeship week and what occurs
to me is that not one of the least | 3:56:44 | 3:56:47 | |
of the evils of the present
situation with the serial offenders | 3:56:47 | 3:56:51 | |
he is describing is that it first of
all prevents them from doing | 3:56:51 | 3:56:57 | |
something decent like offering an
apprenticeship but secondly also | 3:56:57 | 3:57:00 | |
hides them from a group of people
who would then be exposed as not | 3:57:00 | 3:57:07 | |
taking that particular point for the
first place. He makes a very | 3:57:07 | 3:57:11 | |
important point and we are better
informed it. Of course I think there | 3:57:11 | 3:57:15 | |
cannot be a member of the house that
deadly speaker that did not | 3:57:15 | 3:57:19 | |
celebrate national friendship week
so I think on the back of that if | 3:57:19 | 3:57:23 | |
nothing else this certainly merits
Parliament's attention. I thank my | 3:57:23 | 3:57:31 | |
honourable friend forgiving way and
to congratulate him for bringing | 3:57:31 | 3:57:33 | |
forward this bill, can you confirm
for us, my honourable friend | 3:57:33 | 3:57:38 | |
organised a drop in this week and we
heard from Maxine Clifford, a | 3:57:38 | 3:57:45 | |
Glaswegian who was regularly put on
unpaid trial shifts of at least ten | 3:57:45 | 3:57:50 | |
hours a day and that is one of the
principal reasons we need this bill | 3:57:50 | 3:57:53 | |
to go through. I absolutely agree,
surely to goodness there is not | 3:57:53 | 3:57:59 | |
anyone on a bench in this house who
thinks that kind of practice can be | 3:57:59 | 3:58:03 | |
justified and I see some nodding the
honourable gentleman for and thank | 3:58:03 | 3:58:11 | |
you for his support of the bill as
well, a very early supporter of the | 3:58:11 | 3:58:16 | |
bill actually. I would argue as I am
sure he would as a man with pine | 3:58:16 | 3:58:24 | |
tree during -- fine trade union
traditions that employment law is | 3:58:24 | 3:58:33 | |
heavily stacked in favour of the
employer and provides them with | 3:58:33 | 3:58:37 | |
sufficient instruments to try people
out as it wears, why can people not | 3:58:37 | 3:58:41 | |
be put on a probation period as is
normal in most mainstream jobs? Why | 3:58:41 | 3:58:46 | |
for example, the Conservative led
coalition in the previous two | 3:58:46 | 3:58:52 | |
parlance ago now changed employment
law so people can effectively be | 3:58:52 | 3:58:58 | |
dismissed in the first two years of
employment. That's something I | 3:58:58 | 3:59:02 | |
disagree with, I would not have
voted for that at the time but with | 3:59:02 | 3:59:05 | |
those kind of instruments at their
disposal there can be no need to try | 3:59:05 | 3:59:09 | |
people out of ten hours, 40 hours or
four weeks as I mentioned earlier. I | 3:59:09 | 3:59:13 | |
give way. I thank the honourable
member forgiving way, would he not | 3:59:13 | 3:59:22 | |
agree with me that working
conditions are deteriorating, they | 3:59:22 | 3:59:24 | |
are getting worse, I know sons and
daughters and many people have | 3:59:24 | 3:59:29 | |
suffered from unpaid work and that
is why I strongly support trade | 3:59:29 | 3:59:33 | |
union movement and I suggest anyone
in the trade union movement to stop | 3:59:33 | 3:59:38 | |
the abuse of workers and of the Tory
Prime Minister put her money where | 3:59:38 | 3:59:42 | |
her mouth is I will support these
workers and let's stop this. There | 3:59:42 | 3:59:46 | |
is an important message there that I
know VS TUC would wish me to make | 3:59:46 | 3:59:55 | |
and that is to workers affected by
this and those who are not should | 3:59:55 | 3:59:58 | |
join trade unions. The predator
problem comes Madam Deputy Speaker | 3:59:58 | 4:00:03 | |
that where they are in that kind of
precarious work it's difficult to | 4:00:03 | 4:00:06 | |
sustain financially a trade union
membership. So this bill will | 4:00:06 | 4:00:12 | |
actually help give some protection
and security to people who badly | 4:00:12 | 4:00:14 | |
need it. I will give way. Will he
recognise Unite community section | 4:00:14 | 4:00:22 | |
which is specifically for people who
are out of work and has low rates | 4:00:22 | 4:00:27 | |
and will protect workers saw there
are options for people on low or no | 4:00:27 | 4:00:34 | |
wage. I absolutely commend that. I
call when I first floated the idea | 4:00:34 | 4:00:38 | |
of the Bill Madam Deputy Speaker,
receiving an e-mail from Unite | 4:00:38 | 4:00:43 | |
saying we needed to talk and I
realised it would cause a shiver up | 4:00:43 | 4:00:46 | |
the spines of honourable members in
the Labour Party. It cost one up | 4:00:46 | 4:00:50 | |
mine as well. We had a very fruitful
conversation and they have been | 4:00:50 | 4:00:56 | |
inside is supportive and particular
Brian Simpson who is one of the | 4:00:56 | 4:01:00 | |
Scottish organisers has been
immensely supportive. They better | 4:01:00 | 4:01:03 | |
than zero movement who have collated
lots of information, more than I | 4:01:03 | 4:01:09 | |
have an precarious work and unpaid
trial shifts. And taking direct | 4:01:09 | 4:01:15 | |
action against rogue employers who
get up to ulcers of things like | 4:01:15 | 4:01:18 | |
stealing tips from part-time staff,
and all the rest of it. So there is | 4:01:18 | 4:01:22 | |
a lot to sort out. This bill does
not deal with all of it but I think | 4:01:22 | 4:01:26 | |
we can all agree I hope that the
deals of an important member. Does | 4:01:26 | 4:01:31 | |
he agree that this is abused by some
of the biggest and best-known | 4:01:31 | 4:01:37 | |
employers in the country often
because they put unrealistic | 4:01:37 | 4:01:41 | |
productivity targets on staff,
forcing them to use any method they | 4:01:41 | 4:01:43 | |
can to get home before midnight?
This may be the only time I have | 4:01:43 | 4:01:48 | |
looked forward to using my
parliamentary privilege Madam did | 4:01:48 | 4:01:52 | |
speaker but I'm going to name some
companies who have come up when I've | 4:01:52 | 4:01:55 | |
been having this conversation. The
first which came up was a bubble | 4:01:55 | 4:01:59 | |
tea. I see confusion because I do
not know what that is either but I | 4:01:59 | 4:02:06 | |
will not be trying it because the
company based in Glasgow that has | 4:02:06 | 4:02:12 | |
franchises across the UK and asked a
constituent to work 40 hours for no | 4:02:12 | 4:02:17 | |
money whatsoever. And not only did
they not get the job and I am sure | 4:02:17 | 4:02:23 | |
she made a fine -fest at the trial
period, they actually just ignored | 4:02:23 | 4:02:28 | |
the constituent and that happens too
often. People apply for jobs and go | 4:02:28 | 4:02:33 | |
through trials and the rest of it
and they actually don't get told yes | 4:02:33 | 4:02:37 | |
or no they just get left hanging in
the air, what a cynical and gross | 4:02:37 | 4:02:42 | |
way to treat applicants in this day
and age. I quite agree with the | 4:02:42 | 4:02:46 | |
honourable gentleman that the
example he gave is a shocking | 4:02:46 | 4:02:50 | |
example of abuse. Did the honourable
gentleman report the matter to HMRC | 4:02:50 | 4:02:56 | |
for investigation and if he did can
update the house on the outcome? I | 4:02:56 | 4:03:00 | |
sent a letter to the former HMRC
Minister Jean Ellison who I think is | 4:03:00 | 4:03:05 | |
employed as a special adviser.
Forgive me and they have got that | 4:03:05 | 4:03:08 | |
wrong Madam daddy speaker but she
did deal with it for me, I had a | 4:03:08 | 4:03:14 | |
conversation with her on the few
occasions we were in the same lobby | 4:03:14 | 4:03:17 | |
at the time and she assured me it
was passed on to the right people. | 4:03:17 | 4:03:22 | |
Part of the issue with doing it
through a minister rather than | 4:03:22 | 4:03:25 | |
direct to the unit is you don't get
told what the outcome is. But what I | 4:03:25 | 4:03:30 | |
would say to the honourable members
is where they come across this, if | 4:03:30 | 4:03:33 | |
there is any question the definition
of the national minimum wage has | 4:03:33 | 4:03:37 | |
been abused, report people to HMRC.
I did a Facebook live with House of | 4:03:37 | 4:03:46 | |
Commons digital officials earlier
this week where I was getting lots | 4:03:46 | 4:03:48 | |
of examples from members of the
public where they have gone through | 4:03:48 | 4:03:53 | |
these things and I have encouraged
people to do this because the | 4:03:53 | 4:03:57 | |
national minimum wage act is what
people rely on and the low paid rely | 4:03:57 | 4:04:02 | |
on it more than any other group in
society. I am grateful to the | 4:04:02 | 4:04:08 | |
honourable gentleman for giving way,
if in this case that he mentioned in | 4:04:08 | 4:04:12 | |
Glasgow, if he was able to take it
to HMRC and it was resolved, what is | 4:04:12 | 4:04:18 | |
the need or necessity for new
legislation? Forgive me, I did not | 4:04:18 | 4:04:23 | |
say it was resolved, I said I don't
know what the outcome is because the | 4:04:23 | 4:04:26 | |
minister does not know the outcome.
What I can say is that the company | 4:04:26 | 4:04:31 | |
after blocking members of Parliament
on social media who highlighted this | 4:04:31 | 4:04:34 | |
and then unblocking them later that
they sent me a letter to say in | 4:04:34 | 4:04:39 | |
actual fact this was training and
training is covered by the national | 4:04:39 | 4:04:43 | |
minimum wage act so they were still
in breach of the law if were the | 4:04:43 | 4:04:46 | |
case. But they did tell me they
changed their practice as a result. | 4:04:46 | 4:04:50 | |
I have not found any positions to
come up that I can perhaps under a | 4:04:50 | 4:04:57 | |
cloak and dagger have applied for
myself to work out what happens but | 4:04:57 | 4:05:01 | |
I know for example that algae were
opening a big new store in the | 4:05:01 | 4:05:04 | |
north-east of Scotland advertising
150 at unpaid trial shifts I | 4:05:04 | 4:05:12 | |
understand -- and 2-macro opening a
store. This cannot | 4:05:12 | 4:05:16 | |
on the points raised about training,
I know from personal experience my | 4:05:22 | 4:05:28 | |
son was employed, undertook unpaid
training with the company employed | 4:05:28 | 4:05:36 | |
by charities, it was to be a week of
unpaid training with a view to the | 4:05:36 | 4:05:40 | |
job at the end of it, it is terrible
that charities who are supposed to | 4:05:40 | 4:05:45 | |
be there to raise money for the
greater good are exploiting people | 4:05:45 | 4:05:49 | |
in this way. I would agree, I did
not even know he had a son called | 4:05:49 | 4:05:54 | |
Dylan until he mentioned at this
afternoon but I think that is right. | 4:05:54 | 4:05:58 | |
INAUDIBLE
LAUGHTER | 4:05:58 | 4:06:00 | |
I am sure that is untrue. I
mentioned retail and hospitality | 4:06:00 | 4:06:08 | |
because in my consultation those
were the industries which were | 4:06:08 | 4:06:11 | |
coming through, amazingly the
British Retail Consortium refused to | 4:06:11 | 4:06:14 | |
discuss it with me because they
thought it wasn't a problem which is | 4:06:14 | 4:06:18 | |
news to a young man from North
Lanarkshire who was accused by the | 4:06:18 | 4:06:22 | |
retail store B&M Bargains. I used to
enjoy going there, it's a kind of | 4:06:22 | 4:06:36 | |
shop you buy things you don't need
but I was horrified to learn they | 4:06:36 | 4:06:40 | |
had a young man with autism in the
hope of securing work stacking | 4:06:40 | 4:06:44 | |
shelves for three or four days only
to then dismiss him at the end of | 4:06:44 | 4:06:48 | |
it, you are not required any more,
off you go, no pay, nothing in | 4:06:48 | 4:06:53 | |
response. I give way. I am grateful
and I commend the honourable | 4:06:53 | 4:06:58 | |
gentleman on this bill, what
interests me is the demoralising | 4:06:58 | 4:07:01 | |
effect that must have, on that
individual. It's this devil may care | 4:07:01 | 4:07:08 | |
attitude toward respecting other
people that really gets under my | 4:07:08 | 4:07:12 | |
skin. This bill is about fairness
and I commend him for bringing it | 4:07:12 | 4:07:16 | |
forward. I'm grateful to the
honourable gentleman, he's been a | 4:07:16 | 4:07:20 | |
great supporter of the bill since it
started and has had good input into | 4:07:20 | 4:07:25 | |
it. It's a horrifying and cynical
practice. Can you imagine that was | 4:07:25 | 4:07:29 | |
your first introduction to the world
of work, what would that make you | 4:07:29 | 4:07:32 | |
feel about trying to secure work for
yourself in future? I think we are | 4:07:32 | 4:07:40 | |
all united, it's a good thing when
people want to go out and secure | 4:07:40 | 4:07:43 | |
work of some kind but I think the
case I just mentioned, the | 4:07:43 | 4:07:45 | |
constituent's MP wishes to
intervene. I thank the honourable | 4:07:45 | 4:07:50 | |
member for giving way again, the
worst part of that story was the | 4:07:50 | 4:07:54 | |
fact that actually my constituent
was only wrote to be in that work | 4:07:54 | 4:07:58 | |
the following week which gave him
the impression he in fact secured a | 4:07:58 | 4:08:03 | |
job. He was told on the last day
possible that he had not applied | 4:08:03 | 4:08:08 | |
enough effort. Which is clearly,
blatantly wrong and that type of | 4:08:08 | 4:08:14 | |
behaviour is utterly shameful. I did
not know that additional detail, I | 4:08:14 | 4:08:21 | |
think it's shameful and right to be
called out and it's the last time I | 4:08:21 | 4:08:24 | |
will be setting foot in B&M Bargains
which is a great shame because I | 4:08:24 | 4:08:28 | |
pass it on my way to my constituency
office every day. I mean no malice | 4:08:28 | 4:08:32 | |
to the workers of that company, but
instead the bosses that allow that | 4:08:32 | 4:08:37 | |
kind of practice to go on. I will
give way. I'm grateful and fully | 4:08:37 | 4:08:42 | |
support this bill as I have done
from the outset. While the | 4:08:42 | 4:08:46 | |
honourable member agree with me that
as well as the fact that it is | 4:08:46 | 4:08:50 | |
unpaid there is great danger with
regard to health and safety, | 4:08:50 | 4:08:54 | |
training, other staff members,
members of the public and we are | 4:08:54 | 4:09:01 | |
watching unscrupulous employers
putting everybody in danger and also | 4:09:01 | 4:09:04 | |
damaging the reputation of the good
employers who don't engage in mass. | 4:09:04 | 4:09:08 | |
He makes a very good point and a I'm
supporter he's been as well, a | 4:09:08 | 4:09:13 | |
sponsor no less of the bill. He's
right, not everyone does this and | 4:09:13 | 4:09:17 | |
those who do do it give good
employers are bad name which is why | 4:09:17 | 4:09:21 | |
I make the point to the honourable
gentleman for Stirling that the | 4:09:21 | 4:09:24 | |
damage that will do to people's
minds if that's the experience of | 4:09:24 | 4:09:31 | |
the world of work. I wish to make
some progress to bring this to a | 4:09:31 | 4:09:35 | |
close with a couple of points. I
want to square up what the bill does | 4:09:35 | 4:09:37 | |
and why it does it. The bill is
essentially split into two main | 4:09:37 | 4:09:40 | |
parts. The first is an amendment to
the national minimum wage act which | 4:09:40 | 4:09:43 | |
makes it clear that were somewhere
someone takes part in a trial shifts | 4:09:43 | 4:09:47 | |
and it defines what a trial shift is
they are to be paid at least the | 4:09:47 | 4:09:51 | |
national minimum wage and the Bella
prize across United Kingdom. -- the | 4:09:51 | 4:09:56 | |
bill applies. There are other
safeguards are put in there based on | 4:09:56 | 4:09:59 | |
the feedback on members of the
public as I have been discussing | 4:09:59 | 4:10:03 | |
this. The first one is that a member
of the public who does get offered a | 4:10:03 | 4:10:08 | |
trial shift is to be made clear to
them in writing how long that trial | 4:10:08 | 4:10:13 | |
period will last so that people
cannot be strung along. It will also | 4:10:13 | 4:10:17 | |
make clear how many jobs actually
exist which should put an end to the | 4:10:17 | 4:10:22 | |
practice of offering ghost shifts
were no job actually exist. It gives | 4:10:22 | 4:10:26 | |
the person and the employer the
agreement that they are to receive | 4:10:26 | 4:10:32 | |
proper feedback, too often, in fact
I believe it was, I will not | 4:10:32 | 4:10:37 | |
identify the person but it was the
daughter of a prominent Scottish | 4:10:37 | 4:10:40 | |
Labour politician went on a trial
shift in our bar, worked I think | 4:10:40 | 4:10:46 | |
three or four shifts and at the end
of it they said to her we are not | 4:10:46 | 4:10:50 | |
taking you on you don't have enough
experience which they already knew | 4:10:50 | 4:10:53 | |
from looking at her CV in the
application stage so that is the | 4:10:53 | 4:10:57 | |
purpose of that part of the bill. I
think what we have to do, I will | 4:10:57 | 4:11:03 | |
give way in just one moment, I think
what we have to do is try to empower | 4:11:03 | 4:11:07 | |
applicants. I think people feel
helpless doing these things, this is | 4:11:07 | 4:11:12 | |
not about ending trials or the
ability of an employer to test some | 4:11:12 | 4:11:16 | |
on, it's just ending the ability to
take them for a ride and pay them | 4:11:16 | 4:11:19 | |
nothing but I will give way. I thank
the honourable member for bringing | 4:11:19 | 4:11:24 | |
this important bill, it's an issue I
was not really aware of until my | 4:11:24 | 4:11:28 | |
eldest son was a teenager a couple
of his friends worked unpaid shifts, | 4:11:28 | 4:11:32 | |
several shifts in a restaurant and
it made me realise and with the | 4:11:32 | 4:11:40 | |
honourable member are not agree that
the hospitality industry which is an | 4:11:40 | 4:11:44 | |
industry that many of us partake in
and spend money and, is particularly | 4:11:44 | 4:11:49 | |
rife and perhaps if we were more
aware of this and the need to plug | 4:11:49 | 4:11:54 | |
the hole in existing employment
legislation then we would raise | 4:11:54 | 4:11:58 | |
this, we will support this bill and
should not all member support this | 4:11:58 | 4:12:04 | |
bill as it comes forward. | 4:12:04 | 4:12:09 | |
So funny when she says that, I put a
name on it as an unpaid trial ship, | 4:12:09 | 4:12:14 | |
most people would say what is that,
when you explain it, it they realise | 4:12:14 | 4:12:18 | |
their own kids have done it,
neighbours kids have done it, Nice | 4:12:18 | 4:12:21 | |
is and nephews, everyone knows.
Everyone knows someone who has done | 4:12:21 | 4:12:25 | |
it. -- trial shift. I had a very
constructive meeting with the | 4:12:25 | 4:12:30 | |
British hospitality Association,
they support measures like this | 4:12:30 | 4:12:32 | |
because they want their industry to
be seen as an attractive place to | 4:12:32 | 4:12:35 | |
work and build a career, so anything
this Parliament can do to help | 4:12:35 | 4:12:40 | |
hospitality on other sectors, can
only be a good thing. I know he has | 4:12:40 | 4:12:44 | |
an interest in hospitality. I thank
the honourable member for giving | 4:12:44 | 4:12:48 | |
way, making some really important
points, I am glad he recognises the | 4:12:48 | 4:12:53 | |
hospitality and leisure industry,
which employs 3 million in the UK, | 4:12:53 | 4:12:55 | |
has good and bad practices but
generally good, that is important to | 4:12:55 | 4:13:00 | |
recognise, but we have a clear
message from the house, that we have | 4:13:00 | 4:13:05 | |
existing legislation, can we please
make sure it works properly, | 4:13:05 | 4:13:07 | |
depending upon how the bill goes,
that is one of the gaps, and, this | 4:13:07 | 4:13:11 | |
great Tory philosophy of make work
pay, can anybody who makes anybody | 4:13:11 | 4:13:17 | |
work please make sure they pay them!
I never thought that I would bring | 4:13:17 | 4:13:22 | |
forward a bill which encompasses
Tory philosophy(!) Akron the this is | 4:13:22 | 4:13:27 | |
a bill that makes work pay, I hope
that he will do everything he can in | 4:13:27 | 4:13:33 | |
the short term -- time left to make
sure work pays. -- LAUGHTER | 4:13:33 | 4:13:41 | |
. I want to bring this to a close to
make sure that others can say what | 4:13:41 | 4:13:46 | |
they wish. I have had conversations
with the minister, I have seen | 4:13:46 | 4:13:51 | |
public statements, but the legal
advice I have heard suggest this is | 4:13:51 | 4:13:54 | |
not a problem, the trade unions
don't believe it does, and I shared | 4:13:54 | 4:13:59 | |
all of that advice with the
government, after they asked for it, | 4:13:59 | 4:14:02 | |
no issue in doing so. It doesn't
seem to have changed their mind, if | 4:14:02 | 4:14:08 | |
the law worked, there would be one,
there would have been one tribunal, | 4:14:08 | 4:14:12 | |
one tribunal in 20 years of the law
the Minister says covers this, but | 4:14:12 | 4:14:15 | |
there hasn't been, that in itself
tells me, the law does not work, but | 4:14:15 | 4:14:20 | |
if it does work, and I know the
Minister believes this law covers | 4:14:20 | 4:14:23 | |
trial shift and unpaid internships,
and the Minister said to me, he | 4:14:23 | 4:14:28 | |
said, we have no wish to derail your
bill, but we think that the law | 4:14:28 | 4:14:33 | |
covers it already. Well, let's split
the proposition, those two things | 4:14:33 | 4:14:37 | |
cannot sit comfortable it. If the
law as it stands actually covers, | 4:14:37 | 4:14:40 | |
and if the Minister will listen, I
can educate them, if the Minister as | 4:14:40 | 4:14:44 | |
it stands -- if the law as it stands
covers this, there is a problem for | 4:14:44 | 4:14:50 | |
the Minister because I have found on
the W four MP website, and unpaid | 4:14:50 | 4:14:55 | |
internship from 2012, in his office,
for three to six months. So, if it | 4:14:55 | 4:15:01 | |
is the case, I will allow him to
respond, he doesn't need to get too | 4:15:01 | 4:15:05 | |
excited, I will allow him to
respond, if it is the case that law | 4:15:05 | 4:15:09 | |
as it stands shifts and unpaid
internships, either he has two | 4:15:09 | 4:15:16 | |
referrer himself to HM IRC, or I am
afraid that I will have to do it for | 4:15:16 | 4:15:20 | |
him. I would be very interested to
see that, I have never ever had an | 4:15:20 | 4:15:25 | |
unpaid internship in my office.
Madame Deputy Speaker, I can assure | 4:15:25 | 4:15:31 | |
the honourable gentleman, I will
send it to him, there is an unpaid | 4:15:31 | 4:15:33 | |
in ten ship advert on the W four MP
website, I checked it before the | 4:15:33 | 4:15:38 | |
debate started, I'm happy to let the
Minister see it, I think he is | 4:15:38 | 4:15:42 | |
looking it up as I mentioned the
point... I assure you, it is there. | 4:15:42 | 4:15:48 | |
It is something that a lot of
parties in this house take part in. | 4:15:48 | 4:15:52 | |
I think internships are enormously
valuable but if the Minister is so | 4:15:52 | 4:15:56 | |
convinced that the law as it stands
is functional, then it does raise | 4:15:56 | 4:16:00 | |
questions for what he and others
have done. I congratulate him on his | 4:16:00 | 4:16:08 | |
hard work on this bill, as the
youngest number of this place, of | 4:16:08 | 4:16:11 | |
the Labour Party, it would be remiss
of me not to mention the advantages | 4:16:11 | 4:16:16 | |
that young people find in unpaid
shifts, they are massively affected | 4:16:16 | 4:16:21 | |
by this, they may not have the
mechanisms that older workers may | 4:16:21 | 4:16:25 | |
have, and I join him in calling all
young people to join a trade union. | 4:16:25 | 4:16:32 | |
I should mention, as I know she
would know, the Scottish youth | 4:16:32 | 4:16:37 | |
Parliament have endorsed this bill,
and a fine job they have made of it. | 4:16:37 | 4:16:43 | |
Very grateful to my honourable
friend for giving way, can I ask him | 4:16:43 | 4:16:46 | |
to place a copy of the evidence in
the library for all members. So that | 4:16:46 | 4:16:50 | |
we can familiarise ourselves, that
is an interesting point. I rather | 4:16:50 | 4:16:57 | |
expect it will find its way on
Twitter soon enough but I'm happy to | 4:16:57 | 4:17:00 | |
place that evidence in the library
as well. In closing, I don't wish to | 4:17:00 | 4:17:07 | |
cheat the Minister out of his time,
this is a bill which makes work pay, | 4:17:07 | 4:17:11 | |
which empowers people that is the
honourable lady from Midlothian says | 4:17:11 | 4:17:15 | |
need our empowerment, this is
supposed to be a parliament of | 4:17:15 | 4:17:19 | |
legislators that makes good law, we
have an opportunity here today I | 4:17:19 | 4:17:23 | |
believe to make good law. Let us not
filibuster kill it, let us not in | 4:17:23 | 4:17:29 | |
sure that it somehow cannot pass, I
realise that is looking tough but | 4:17:29 | 4:17:35 | |
stranger miracles have happened, so
I ask members to get behind the | 4:17:35 | 4:17:38 | |
Bill, let's get it to committee,
let's make good law and protect | 4:17:38 | 4:17:42 | |
people who need protecting. The
question is that the bill now be | 4:17:42 | 4:17:48 | |
read a second time. It is a great
pleasure to follow that very | 4:17:48 | 4:17:55 | |
thoughtful, very well researched and
well considered speech, given by the | 4:17:55 | 4:18:05 | |
honourable member for Glasgow South
and I found myself in agreement with | 4:18:05 | 4:18:09 | |
very large parts of it. That is in
part because I am a very passionate | 4:18:09 | 4:18:15 | |
believer in the national minimum
wage, one of the first things I did | 4:18:15 | 4:18:18 | |
after getting elected, first
elected, in 2015, was I went and | 4:18:18 | 4:18:24 | |
sort out the then Chancellor of the
Exchequer, George Osborne, who I | 4:18:24 | 4:18:29 | |
understand is more than modestly
occupied these days. And rest on him | 4:18:29 | 4:18:35 | |
what I thought was a very strong
case for a big increase in the | 4:18:35 | 4:18:40 | |
minimum wage. I was delighted that a
short time later, the government | 4:18:40 | 4:18:47 | |
announced large increases in the
minimum wage, I am very proud of the | 4:18:47 | 4:18:50 | |
fact that it is a Conservative
government between 2010 and today, | 4:18:50 | 4:18:55 | |
that has increased the minimum wage,
from £5 93 per hour, back in 2010, | 4:18:55 | 4:19:02 | |
up to £7 83 in our today, 32%
increase. A 32% increase, under, | 4:19:02 | 4:19:09 | |
taken together with the national
living wage, legally required | 4:19:09 | 4:19:13 | |
minimum wage, and I'm very proud
that it is a Conservative government | 4:19:13 | 4:19:16 | |
that has increased it by 32% and
over that period, inflation has been | 4:19:16 | 4:19:22 | |
only 19%, substantially higher than
inflation. Grateful to my honourable | 4:19:22 | 4:19:27 | |
friend for giving way, would he
accept the premise of the Bill, it | 4:19:27 | 4:19:30 | |
is a wonderful thing for them to
work, and very important part of | 4:19:30 | 4:19:34 | |
growing up, this bill particularly
to protect the young, it is surely | 4:19:34 | 4:19:43 | |
the case that you can go to work and
work hard but you are entitled to be | 4:19:43 | 4:19:47 | |
paid fairly. As the honourable
member for Stirling pointed out in | 4:19:47 | 4:19:50 | |
his early intervention, the idea
that you should be fairly paid for a | 4:19:50 | 4:19:54 | |
fair day 's work or even a fair few
hours work is important Conservative | 4:19:54 | 4:19:59 | |
principle, it is an important
fundamental right as well, I agree | 4:19:59 | 4:20:03 | |
entirely with the premise of the
question and the point, so, I would | 4:20:03 | 4:20:08 | |
like to start by putting on record,
once again, my very strong support | 4:20:08 | 4:20:12 | |
for the concept of the minimum wage,
and the national living wage, and | 4:20:12 | 4:20:16 | |
the fact that it has been increased
by such a large amount, I would also | 4:20:16 | 4:20:21 | |
mention in passing, while talking
about waging for those on low | 4:20:21 | 4:20:25 | |
earnings, the increase in the
tax-free allowance, over the three | 4:20:25 | 4:20:29 | |
years, 6500, up to 11,500, has meant
people on the minimum wage, the | 4:20:29 | 4:20:34 | |
topic of this bill, the take-home
wages, have gone up by 37%. Not only | 4:20:34 | 4:20:41 | |
has the minimum wage gone up by 32%,
but they are paying proportionally | 4:20:41 | 4:20:45 | |
less tax at the same time, I think
it is important to bear in mind low | 4:20:45 | 4:20:51 | |
tax has a role to play to make sure
that people have a decent wage. We | 4:20:51 | 4:20:58 | |
have talked a bit this afternoon
about enforcement, because clearly, | 4:20:58 | 4:21:03 | |
a national minimum wage or living
wage is only as effective as its | 4:21:03 | 4:21:08 | |
enforcement, and that was a point
that was started on by the | 4:21:08 | 4:21:11 | |
honourable member for Glasgow South.
In the last financial year, the year | 4:21:11 | 4:21:18 | |
2016-17, H M Darcy, which is the
body responsible for enforcing the | 4:21:18 | 4:21:22 | |
national minimum wage, took action
against 1150 -- 1134 individual | 4:21:22 | 4:21:30 | |
businesses, quite a good track
record of taking action to enforce | 4:21:30 | 4:21:34 | |
the minimum wage. -- HMR see. They
clawed back £10.9 million, fairly | 4:21:34 | 4:21:40 | |
substantial sum, the action they
took encompassed 98,000 workers who | 4:21:40 | 4:21:45 | |
had been illegally underpaid. --
HMRC. So, I think that evidence | 4:21:45 | 4:21:49 | |
suggest that HMRC is taking its
enforcement role very seriously and | 4:21:49 | 4:21:54 | |
enjoying some success in making sure
that the national minimum wage and | 4:21:54 | 4:22:00 | |
living wage are adhered to. My very
good friend, my neighbour, thank you | 4:22:00 | 4:22:05 | |
for giving way. Just to clarify,
HMRC did not is the money, they | 4:22:05 | 4:22:14 | |
presumably gave it to those who had
lost it? When someone has been | 4:22:14 | 4:22:18 | |
illegally underpaid -- underpaid
they receive retrospective | 4:22:18 | 4:22:22 | |
compensation. As to where the funds
go, I rather suspect they end up | 4:22:22 | 4:22:27 | |
with HM Treasury but it is certainly
the case that the people who have | 4:22:27 | 4:22:31 | |
been underpaid get made good for the
unfair loss which they have | 4:22:31 | 4:22:33 | |
suffered. Yes, of course. My brother
took part in one of these trials for | 4:22:33 | 4:22:41 | |
a telephone sales company, two days
unpaid, having to pay for transport | 4:22:41 | 4:22:45 | |
up and down. He is a physics
graduate, very intelligent, he knows | 4:22:45 | 4:22:51 | |
it is illegal but has no confidence
if he reports it it will go | 4:22:51 | 4:22:55 | |
anywhere, so it is also part of the
key to enable easy reporting to HM | 4:22:55 | 4:23:01 | |
sea, and companies having to report
themselves about how many jobs are | 4:23:01 | 4:23:06 | |
available, as the bill requires, is
that not why this bill is needed? -- | 4:23:06 | 4:23:09 | |
HMRC. I will come to the bill in a
moment but in answer to the | 4:23:09 | 4:23:13 | |
question, I entirely agree that the
experience his brother had, two | 4:23:13 | 4:23:18 | |
days, clearly way beyond anything
that is remotely reasonable, the | 4:23:18 | 4:23:21 | |
honourable gentleman is right,
reporting should be made easier, we | 4:23:21 | 4:23:26 | |
should put these back Rafael acting
to the public domain so that people | 4:23:26 | 4:23:29 | |
who feel they have been unfairly
abused in this area or another will | 4:23:29 | 4:23:34 | |
report the companies, yes. Would he
agree that one way of dealing with | 4:23:34 | 4:23:43 | |
this is to have clear guidance on
the existing law. About what is an | 4:23:43 | 4:23:48 | |
acceptable page trial, for example,
if you hours, and what is flagrantly | 4:23:48 | 4:23:51 | |
trying to dodge the minimum living
wage and the law. That brings me | 4:23:51 | 4:24:01 | |
nicely onto the next point I would
like to make but before I come to | 4:24:01 | 4:24:04 | |
that point, to other fact I would
like to put on record nation to | 4:24:04 | 4:24:09 | |
enforcement, first of those, HMRC
has a team of 400 people working on | 4:24:09 | 4:24:12 | |
this, and I'm very sorry that the
honourable member's brother did not | 4:24:12 | 4:24:16 | |
feel able to report the matter to
one of those 400 staff and the | 4:24:16 | 4:24:22 | |
budget for enforcement has recently
been doubled, from 13 million, to 25 | 4:24:22 | 4:24:28 | |
million, that gives some confidence
that HMRC and the government are | 4:24:28 | 4:24:31 | |
taking this very seriously. Let me
turn out to the point just raised by | 4:24:31 | 4:24:36 | |
my honourable friend, the member for
Torbay. There is clearly an issue | 4:24:36 | 4:24:44 | |
with enforcement, my understanding
of the law as it stands, excessively | 4:24:44 | 4:24:49 | |
long unpaid work trials are
currently unlawfully and should be | 4:24:49 | 4:24:56 | |
paid for, the examples we have
heard, three examples heard in the | 4:24:56 | 4:24:59 | |
chamber today, two from the
honourable member for Glasgow South, | 4:24:59 | 4:25:02 | |
and the example we heard a moment
ago, from the honourable member for | 4:25:02 | 4:25:08 | |
Brighton... Brighton Kemptown. Three
examples, all of those involved | 4:25:08 | 4:25:12 | |
appearance of work two days, in the
latter case, and a period of two or | 4:25:12 | 4:25:17 | |
three days in one case, and 40 hours
in the other. All of those strike me | 4:25:17 | 4:25:21 | |
as being quite clearly far in excess
of what is reasonable and ought to | 4:25:21 | 4:25:28 | |
fail that test of being long paid
work trials. So I would certainly... | 4:25:28 | 4:25:34 | |
One moment, I would certainly
welcome the minister in his response | 4:25:34 | 4:25:39 | |
in due course, clarifying that it is
also his understanding that those | 4:25:39 | 4:25:43 | |
three examples we have heard this
afternoon do indeed contradict | 4:25:43 | 4:25:46 | |
existing regulation, and in his
view, add those being, one of them | 4:25:46 | 4:25:52 | |
was reported, had they been
reported, the company would likely | 4:25:52 | 4:25:56 | |
have been found against, I would
very much welcome the Minister's | 4:25:56 | 4:26:01 | |
confirmation on that point. Is my
honourable friend aware that there | 4:26:01 | 4:26:09 | |
should be a job intended at the end,
some of the examples prepared today, | 4:26:09 | 4:26:12 | |
that is not happening. There is
potentially a problem with | 4:26:12 | 4:26:16 | |
enforcement of the current
legislation and we need a review of | 4:26:16 | 4:26:20 | |
that, rather than duplicating laws.
Again, I think if there are trials | 4:26:20 | 4:26:25 | |
taking place with no certain job at
the end or no job vacancy, that is | 4:26:25 | 4:26:29 | |
again an outrageous abuse. It is a
fraud! From said and reposition, | 4:26:29 | 4:26:36 | |
yes, I agree with that interjection,
it is fraud, and I look forward to | 4:26:36 | 4:26:41 | |
the Minister offering thoughts on
that in due course. Excuse me. | 4:26:41 | 4:26:44 | |
Recovering from... | 4:26:44 | 4:26:46 | |
As I understand... But somebody
wished to make an intervention? | 4:26:51 | 4:26:56 | |
LAUGHTER
That is a very kind suggestion but | 4:26:56 | 4:27:04 | |
this is an important matter. You
have made it worse! The honourable | 4:27:04 | 4:27:14 | |
member for Glasgow South's bill, any
period of trial working even as much | 4:27:14 | 4:27:19 | |
as five minutes would fall foul of
the bill as drafted, he is nodding | 4:27:19 | 4:27:22 | |
his head. I think as with any piece
of regulation there is a balance to | 4:27:22 | 4:27:29 | |
strike. All the examples we have
heard I completely agree are totally | 4:27:29 | 4:27:32 | |
unreasonable and should be an waffle
and those companies should be | 4:27:32 | 4:27:37 | |
prosecuted and fined. But I think
there are examples where, and I am | 4:27:37 | 4:27:42 | |
coming to the conclusion of my
remarks, there are examples of | 4:27:42 | 4:27:46 | |
companies who quite legitimately
want somebody to do a reasonable | 4:27:46 | 4:27:49 | |
amount of trial work by which one
might mean a few hours. To oppose | 4:27:49 | 4:27:53 | |
upon them the administered overhead,
I consider a 3-4 hours to be the | 4:27:53 | 4:28:01 | |
maximum reasonable, it would be
unfair, potentially unfair, I will | 4:28:01 | 4:28:04 | |
take intervention in the second,
it'll be unfair to impose upon those | 4:28:04 | 4:28:09 | |
businesses the administrative
setting up payroll, national | 4:28:09 | 4:28:13 | |
insurance and so on, making a return
to HMRC in relation to a very short | 4:28:13 | 4:28:17 | |
and very reasonable period of trial
work and I will happily give way. Of | 4:28:17 | 4:28:22 | |
course he knows of the other
instruments which exist for | 4:28:22 | 4:28:26 | |
employers and he can just test out
their skills of the honourable | 4:28:26 | 4:28:29 | |
gentleman applies to my copy shop
and I ask him to prove he can make a | 4:28:29 | 4:28:33 | |
cappuccino he has done what he has
to do and I've satisfied myself. | 4:28:33 | 4:28:36 | |
What I don't need to do is put on
shift with the rest of the staff and | 4:28:36 | 4:28:40 | |
pump them working alongside other
colleagues and contributing to my | 4:28:40 | 4:28:44 | |
profit margin without payment. If it
is an entire shift that is clearly | 4:28:44 | 4:28:50 | |
wholly unreasonable but if I trial
is let's say an hour and it involves | 4:28:50 | 4:28:59 | |
serving copy I think when you test
someone out, testing and any live | 4:28:59 | 4:29:04 | |
work environment gives you
information about their suitability. | 4:29:04 | 4:29:09 | |
In the example of a copy shop, where
are they to work for one hour as a | 4:29:09 | 4:29:13 | |
trial I would consider that to be
reasonable and would not require | 4:29:13 | 4:29:16 | |
payment. If it was an eight-hour
shift I think it would and should | 4:29:16 | 4:29:20 | |
require full payment and my concern
now is as drafted the one hour trial | 4:29:20 | 4:29:25 | |
would get caught. I will take is on
prevention and come back. I am | 4:29:25 | 4:29:31 | |
pretty sure all of us in this house
as employers will have written into | 4:29:31 | 4:29:35 | |
our contract is the fact that all of
our staff when they start start with | 4:29:35 | 4:29:39 | |
a probationary period, would that
not be a more appropriate way to | 4:29:39 | 4:29:41 | |
handle this matter? How much it
would, if you take somebody on I | 4:29:41 | 4:29:48 | |
think the reasonable expectation is
that they, a provisional period is | 4:29:48 | 4:29:55 | |
typically one month but can be
three, asking an employer to employ | 4:29:55 | 4:29:59 | |
someone for a period of between one
and three months who it transpires | 4:29:59 | 4:30:02 | |
within a matter of a few hours is
unsuitable I think is a little and | 4:30:02 | 4:30:07 | |
fair on the employer. I am spoiled
for choice here. I will give way | 4:30:07 | 4:30:11 | |
over here. Thank you, will he also
accepted someone is doing a trial | 4:30:11 | 4:30:16 | |
period of one hour some people are
much more comfortable with doing a | 4:30:16 | 4:30:20 | |
trial period of an hour than sitting
through an injury of 45 minutes in | 4:30:20 | 4:30:24 | |
which they might find extremely
stressful and uncomfortable and | 4:30:24 | 4:30:28 | |
might be underprepared for. I do
agree and I think from the point of | 4:30:28 | 4:30:32 | |
view of an employer and I have run
my own businesses 15 years before | 4:30:32 | 4:30:37 | |
being collected, often interviews
are not a good way of ascertaining | 4:30:37 | 4:30:41 | |
someone's suitability. People come
up with all sorts of nonsense | 4:30:41 | 4:30:44 | |
weather is getting someone to do the
job in some form even if for a short | 4:30:44 | 4:30:48 | |
period like an hour you learn a lot
about their capability. I give way. | 4:30:48 | 4:30:53 | |
I thank my honourable friend
forgiving way. I appreciate the | 4:30:53 | 4:30:59 | |
perspective, the mechanical process
of producing copy in a coffee shop | 4:30:59 | 4:31:02 | |
but with my honourable friend except
had of the new need social skills | 4:31:02 | 4:31:08 | |
which is a more subtle skill to
assess before perhaps offering... I | 4:31:08 | 4:31:13 | |
do agree it's a subtle process, the
honourable member asked if I would | 4:31:13 | 4:31:19 | |
work for free and I suppose all of
us in a sense have done gigantic | 4:31:19 | 4:31:23 | |
free trial shifts, it's called being
a parliamentary candidate. When I | 4:31:23 | 4:31:27 | |
was first elected in December 2006,
ran in the 2010 collection and lost | 4:31:27 | 4:31:33 | |
by 42 votes, it was an extended four
ear and page trial period which | 4:31:33 | 4:31:37 | |
ended up being rather unsuccessful.
I will give way. I thank my | 4:31:37 | 4:31:43 | |
honourable friend forgiving way,
does he agree that a trial period | 4:31:43 | 4:31:46 | |
can be beneficial for those trying
out as well to see they want unlike | 4:31:46 | 4:31:51 | |
the job? I did a trial period when I
was younger for a few hours and it's | 4:31:51 | 4:31:56 | |
about getting the balance between
rights and responsibilities and we | 4:31:56 | 4:31:59 | |
don't want to exploit anybody but
also creating a facilitating | 4:31:59 | 4:32:04 | |
opportunities and jobs. I agree, if
you have a short trial period and to | 4:32:04 | 4:32:07 | |
be clear I mean a couple of hours,
that can give an employer confidence | 4:32:07 | 4:32:12 | |
to give someone a job, perhaps from
a disadvantaged background or who | 4:32:12 | 4:32:16 | |
does not come across very strongly
in interviews. They might give that | 4:32:16 | 4:32:20 | |
employer the confidence to imply
that person when otherwise they | 4:32:20 | 4:32:22 | |
might not. I will give way here.
Thank you, I wonder if you can | 4:32:22 | 4:32:30 | |
clarify something, I am listening
carefully, but I cannot understand | 4:32:30 | 4:32:34 | |
why you had to have an page trial
shifts when what you could do in a | 4:32:34 | 4:32:38 | |
much more fair and just way is put
somebody on a temporary contract and | 4:32:38 | 4:32:42 | |
assess them and then decide he would
give them a permanent contract? To | 4:32:42 | 4:32:47 | |
be clear to the house I don't think
the full and page trial shifts are | 4:32:47 | 4:32:52 | |
ethical, right or model. My
understanding is they are illegal | 4:32:52 | 4:32:55 | |
already and if they are not they
should be made to be so I do not | 4:32:55 | 4:33:00 | |
want is full and page trial shifts
to be legal but a short period of | 4:33:00 | 4:33:05 | |
time, one or two hours I would
suggest I think, you don't need to | 4:33:05 | 4:33:09 | |
have a temporary contract to do
that. If you ask someone to enter | 4:33:09 | 4:33:14 | |
into a temporary contract it entails
paperwork and bureaucracy. It | 4:33:14 | 4:33:18 | |
creates, notwithstanding the two
years point, in relation to | 4:33:18 | 4:33:23 | |
discrimination it creates
immediately binding legal | 4:33:23 | 4:33:24 | |
obligations and to do all that
simply for someone who is | 4:33:24 | 4:33:27 | |
essentially going through an
interview process I think does | 4:33:27 | 4:33:31 | |
impose an unreasonable burden on the
prospective employer particularly if | 4:33:31 | 4:33:34 | |
you are interviewing ten people for
one position, to have to give all | 4:33:34 | 4:33:39 | |
ten temporary contract I think is an
excessive measure in the context of | 4:33:39 | 4:33:42 | |
a one or two hour trial. I have
spoken for a bit longer than I had | 4:33:42 | 4:33:47 | |
planned, I will before concluding
take one last intervention from my | 4:33:47 | 4:33:54 | |
honourable member. I am most
grateful, we all know being | 4:33:54 | 4:34:00 | |
parliamentary candidates one gets a
lot of feedback whether you like it | 4:34:00 | 4:34:03 | |
or not, I think one of the very
powerful points was the feedback to | 4:34:03 | 4:34:11 | |
the employed, I think it's it an
excellent idea. What I am worried | 4:34:11 | 4:34:17 | |
about is that companies are nervous
about providing that feedback which | 4:34:17 | 4:34:21 | |
is helpful. If this gets I would
hope that the INAUDIBLE | 4:34:21 | 4:34:38 | |
To have the trouble of going to your
place of accommodation trial work as | 4:34:42 | 4:34:46 | |
well and then not even give feedback
I think is a gross discourtesy, I | 4:34:46 | 4:34:51 | |
think it will discourage people from
going to interviews and I completely | 4:34:51 | 4:34:54 | |
agree with the point the honourable
gentleman just made. And if this | 4:34:54 | 4:34:59 | |
does not pass at second reading and
goes to committee today that will | 4:34:59 | 4:35:03 | |
continue to happen. Does he agree we
should see this bill in committee. I | 4:35:03 | 4:35:07 | |
have an open mind on this bill, I
would like to see what the Minister | 4:35:07 | 4:35:11 | |
has to say in response to the
questions I have posed during my | 4:35:11 | 4:35:15 | |
speech particularly in relation to
whether one or two hours of work is | 4:35:15 | 4:35:19 | |
or is not part of the current
legislation. Let me just concludes | 4:35:19 | 4:35:28 | |
by, normally those words are greeted
with a cheer, I will take that as | 4:35:28 | 4:35:31 | |
encouragement. Let me conclude by
saying there is a balance to strike, | 4:35:31 | 4:35:36 | |
if we impose too many barriers when
it comes to people creating | 4:35:36 | 4:35:40 | |
employment and this applies to
generally onerous employment | 4:35:40 | 4:35:42 | |
legislation, there is a risk that
rather than protecting people we | 4:35:42 | 4:35:49 | |
prevent jobs from being created. One
of the reasons this country has | 4:35:49 | 4:35:53 | |
greeted 3 million jobs in last eight
years is we have in this country | 4:35:53 | 4:35:58 | |
quite a sensible balance I think
between protections for workers on | 4:35:58 | 4:36:01 | |
the one hand and avoiding overly
burdening employers on the other. I | 4:36:01 | 4:36:07 | |
am nervous about upsetting the
delicate balance. As I say at the | 4:36:07 | 4:36:13 | |
beginning I agree with the points
about full shifts, they should not | 4:36:13 | 4:36:16 | |
be lawful and I will be listening
carefully to the minister 's | 4:36:16 | 4:36:19 | |
comments when he comes to wind up
the debate in a few minutes time. | 4:36:19 | 4:36:24 | |
Doctor Alan Whitehead. Thank you
Madam Deputy Speaker, firstly may I | 4:36:24 | 4:36:31 | |
congratulate the member for Glasgow
side for bringing this important and | 4:36:31 | 4:36:35 | |
I think very well constructive bill
to the house. We have been a little | 4:36:35 | 4:36:41 | |
diverted into the question of one
hour or two hours or whatever as far | 4:36:41 | 4:36:46 | |
as unpaid work is concerned. This
bill essentially is about the | 4:36:46 | 4:36:51 | |
principle of a fair day 's pay for a
fair day 's work. And I think that | 4:36:51 | 4:36:58 | |
point needs to be placed in the
context of what we are talking about | 4:36:58 | 4:37:03 | |
today into some wider context
because unpaid work trials have | 4:37:03 | 4:37:07 | |
become a widespread practice in the
hospitality, entertainment and | 4:37:07 | 4:37:11 | |
retail sectors and we need to place
that development into a wider | 4:37:11 | 4:37:16 | |
context. We have in recent years
witnessed an explosion of | 4:37:16 | 4:37:25 | |
exploitative working practices
linked with the gig economy. That | 4:37:25 | 4:37:30 | |
commonplace phrase does not do
justice to what is occurring, the | 4:37:30 | 4:37:34 | |
avoidance of employment rights and
benefits, remuneration on a mass | 4:37:34 | 4:37:37 | |
scale. Unpaid work trials must be
seen in the broader context of a | 4:37:37 | 4:37:43 | |
range of sharp practices which are
associated with low paid insecure | 4:37:43 | 4:37:47 | |
employment in this country designed
to cut the burden on the employer at | 4:37:47 | 4:37:50 | |
the expense of hundreds of thousands
if not millions of workers. Just in | 4:37:50 | 4:37:54 | |
the last few weeks in this place we
discussed as the honourable member | 4:37:54 | 4:37:59 | |
for Glasgow side has mentioned
tipping practices which take | 4:37:59 | 4:38:02 | |
rightfully and tips from waiting
staff and recycled onto top of the | 4:38:02 | 4:38:05 | |
pay of other workers to minimum
wage. Also in the last two weeks | 4:38:05 | 4:38:10 | |
we've seen how major international
companies have failed to pay staff | 4:38:10 | 4:38:15 | |
the minimum wage. There is a pattern
of stop I will give way. Does he | 4:38:15 | 4:38:22 | |
share my shock and concern that the
British Retail Consortium failed to | 4:38:22 | 4:38:25 | |
acknowledge this was even a problem
and refused to meet the honourable | 4:38:25 | 4:38:29 | |
gentleman to even discuss the
matter? I do share his shock and | 4:38:29 | 4:38:35 | |
concern. And I think it underlines
actually how a number of very | 4:38:35 | 4:38:40 | |
important institutions in this
country are continuing to | 4:38:40 | 4:38:45 | |
underestimate and even turn a blind
eye to all these practices | 4:38:45 | 4:38:49 | |
associated with the gig economy, one
of which is of course the question | 4:38:49 | 4:38:54 | |
of unpaid work trials. So there is a
pattern. It has and I don't think | 4:38:54 | 4:39:02 | |
being clearly addressed by the
Taylor review and has not been | 4:39:02 | 4:39:06 | |
addressed by the government's weak
response to it. More than £1 billion | 4:39:06 | 4:39:10 | |
is lost in wages every year to
unpaid work of which the continuing | 4:39:10 | 4:39:14 | |
practice of unpaid work trials is a
continuing, confidence factor. I | 4:39:14 | 4:39:21 | |
think I know the reported a verse
two, there has been a subsequent | 4:39:21 | 4:39:26 | |
report since then which actually
find it about £3 billion lost wages. | 4:39:26 | 4:39:35 | |
So 2 billion has been lost since I
last looked. I think that underlines | 4:39:35 | 4:39:40 | |
what the big picture we are talking
about here as far as these practices | 4:39:40 | 4:39:44 | |
are concerned. Unite the union say
there has been a sixfold increase in | 4:39:44 | 4:39:51 | |
complaints about the practice in the
last three years and indeed the work | 4:39:51 | 4:39:54 | |
done by the member for Glasgow South
in collecting personal stories of | 4:39:54 | 4:39:58 | |
this exploitation chimes with what
is we have heard today many of us | 4:39:58 | 4:40:02 | |
have had experience of the road are
constituents, our own children and | 4:40:02 | 4:40:05 | |
on local communities. I give way. I
can speak from personal experience | 4:40:05 | 4:40:11 | |
as the second youngest Labour member
in the house, my first experience of | 4:40:11 | 4:40:16 | |
the world of work was to undertake
an unpaid trial shift against four | 4:40:16 | 4:40:22 | |
other candidates for a full day 's
shift unpaid and combine that with | 4:40:22 | 4:40:27 | |
easier hours contract and unfair
tipping practices where we were not | 4:40:27 | 4:40:30 | |
given tips and it subsidised minimum
wage, combine that with young people | 4:40:30 | 4:40:34 | |
unaware of trade union rights and
how to join a trade union or engage | 4:40:34 | 4:40:38 | |
that security employment, that is
the root cause of the problem and | 4:40:38 | 4:40:42 | |
it's the duty of Parliament to
legislate to protect young people | 4:40:42 | 4:40:45 | |
and other people exploited by those
nefarious practices. My honourable | 4:40:45 | 4:40:50 | |
friend makes an important point and
also point that in his personal | 4:40:50 | 4:40:55 | |
experience he seems to have
experienced all the aspects of this | 4:40:55 | 4:40:58 | |
particular problem coming together
on one occasion in one place to one | 4:40:58 | 4:41:01 | |
person so it's an important point he
has made. There are many instances | 4:41:01 | 4:41:08 | |
of people talking about their own
experiences, this is one of them, | 4:41:08 | 4:41:13 | |
Clegg did indeed from Scotland,
Kilmarnock, my son was asked to do a | 4:41:13 | 4:41:21 | |
trial shift in a local restaurant,
the manager on shift did not even | 4:41:21 | 4:41:25 | |
speak to him when he was in, he was
left in the bar without direction | 4:41:25 | 4:41:28 | |
and when he tried to help the others
he was told to get back behind the | 4:41:28 | 4:41:31 | |
bar. He was not paid a penny, the
restaurant had done the same thing | 4:41:31 | 4:41:35 | |
to a friend of my son except it was
for a kitchen porter and he did four | 4:41:35 | 4:41:40 | |
hours without pay and at the end of
the ship they just left, waited over | 4:41:40 | 4:41:43 | |
a week and no job was offered. | 4:41:43 | 4:41:44 | |
is a real problem with current
legislation around the use of | 4:41:45 | 4:41:48 | |
underpaid trial shift, in reality,
the idea of shadowing has been used | 4:41:48 | 4:41:51 | |
by employers to justify bringing in
unpaid workers to cover staff | 4:41:51 | 4:41:58 | |
shortages, sickness, or particularly
busy periods or events, there is a | 4:41:58 | 4:42:01 | |
need to clarify the legal position
for employers and employees with | 4:42:01 | 4:42:04 | |
legislation and this bill seeks to
do that, by closing current | 4:42:04 | 4:42:09 | |
legislative loopholes to make sure
that workers are paid for every hour | 4:42:09 | 4:42:12 | |
they work and every shift they do. I
am happy to give way. I think what | 4:42:12 | 4:42:20 | |
the honourable member for Glasgow
South has put together is excellent. | 4:42:20 | 4:42:24 | |
And I congratulate him, and I also
congratulate Croydon South's... | 4:42:24 | 4:42:32 | |
Souths seem to be in the air
today... Can we be clear, this bill | 4:42:32 | 4:42:36 | |
is not going to apply to someone
that just goes along to have a | 4:42:36 | 4:42:40 | |
taster for a day, does not work
necessarily work a shift but just | 4:42:40 | 4:42:45 | |
gets an experience of what the work
is like, and that is not what this | 4:42:45 | 4:42:49 | |
bill is about, is it? No, my clear
understanding, and I think this will | 4:42:49 | 4:42:56 | |
be borne out by the honourable
member for Glasgow South, that is | 4:42:56 | 4:43:00 | |
not what this bill is about, it is
not about work experience, it is not | 4:43:00 | 4:43:06 | |
about those factors, it is about...
Can I just clarify for the house, as | 4:43:06 | 4:43:14 | |
it is drafted, this bill would
exclude those kind of things, | 4:43:14 | 4:43:17 | |
anything from making the coffee,
briefly, would be outlawed. The bill | 4:43:17 | 4:43:23 | |
sets the threshold at zero. Any
moment spent working would be caught | 4:43:23 | 4:43:29 | |
up with in this bill. I'm not sure
the Minister has actually, if I may | 4:43:29 | 4:43:40 | |
say so, correctly put across the
idea of what working is, as far | 4:43:40 | 4:43:46 | |
as... Various things which do not
constitute work but constitute other | 4:43:46 | 4:43:52 | |
things not related to work would not
be covered by this particular bill. | 4:43:52 | 4:43:56 | |
Where there is clear work being
undertaken, and that work is | 4:43:56 | 4:44:01 | |
recognised in the normal sense of
the word, then it would be covered | 4:44:01 | 4:44:04 | |
by the Bill. Just to once again
clarify, those kind of trials, those | 4:44:04 | 4:44:11 | |
tests, would not be covered by the
national minimum wage, so therefore, | 4:44:11 | 4:44:16 | |
the payment would not be applicable
anyway, they are not covered by | 4:44:16 | 4:44:19 | |
national minimum wage test or trial
in any way. I think the point of | 4:44:19 | 4:44:26 | |
this is to close gaps in
legislation, in order to make clear | 4:44:26 | 4:44:30 | |
what it is a person is doing when
they are working, and what it is | 4:44:30 | 4:44:35 | |
they are doing in terms of trial
work and how that can be much better | 4:44:35 | 4:44:41 | |
defined and protected as far as
legislation goes, that is exactly | 4:44:41 | 4:44:43 | |
what I think is trying to be brought
about today. Now, the bill would | 4:44:43 | 4:44:51 | |
require employers to pay applicants
undertaking trial work periods at | 4:44:51 | 4:44:55 | |
least the national minimum wage,
that is again a clarity that the | 4:44:55 | 4:44:58 | |
Bill is making and importantly it
will provide clarity over what they | 4:44:58 | 4:45:03 | |
work trial is and what is the racing
should between an employer, and an | 4:45:03 | 4:45:10 | |
employee, that has been used by many
unscrupulous workers. Essentially to | 4:45:10 | 4:45:18 | |
cut staff costs, there is an element
of coercion, widespread response to | 4:45:18 | 4:45:22 | |
the call for evidence is that many
people who have undertaken unpaid | 4:45:22 | 4:45:25 | |
work trials felt they could not
refuse to do so, or speak up because | 4:45:25 | 4:45:29 | |
of a fear of jeopardising chances to
get a job | 4:45:29 | 4:45:34 | |
there is a difference between
exploiting people for shifts for | 4:45:39 | 4:45:41 | |
jobs that do not exist, and for
trying some the other four are now | 4:45:41 | 4:45:45 | |
or two and giving them the
opportunity to prove themselves. | 4:45:45 | 4:45:51 | |
Yes, of course, of course... Of
course there is a difference and | 4:45:51 | 4:45:53 | |
this bill does not fundamentally
change that position, it is, it is, | 4:45:53 | 4:45:59 | |
it is by my understanding seeking to
clarify what it is to actually do | 4:45:59 | 4:46:07 | |
work and following that definition,
to get paid for that work, and the | 4:46:07 | 4:46:12 | |
principal, if you do work, defined
as serious work, then you should get | 4:46:12 | 4:46:19 | |
paid for it. Can I reiterate, there
is a world of difference between an | 4:46:19 | 4:46:26 | |
exploitive unpaid trial shift and
the casualised context that I | 4:46:26 | 4:46:32 | |
experience, controlled and time
bound assessment centre, that I did | 4:46:32 | 4:46:35 | |
for my first graduate job, this bill
is about defining the difference, we | 4:46:35 | 4:46:40 | |
should do that as part of the bill,
that is why it should be supported. | 4:46:40 | 4:46:47 | |
As my honourable friend points out,
if indeed it is methods are being | 4:46:47 | 4:46:55 | |
sought to not support this bill,
because of quibbles about what are | 4:46:55 | 4:47:00 | |
trials and when is someone actually
just doing a practice, when they are | 4:47:00 | 4:47:04 | |
doing a trial, that would be a great
shame because this is about a | 4:47:04 | 4:47:10 | |
principle and an area of bad
practice which needs to be shutdown. | 4:47:10 | 4:47:16 | |
There is widespread public anger
about the practice of unpaid trials, | 4:47:16 | 4:47:19 | |
and indeed, we have heard the
mention of the cafes in Glasgow | 4:47:19 | 4:47:27 | |
which sparked this campaign, 13,000
people signed that petition. And | 4:47:27 | 4:47:34 | |
indeed, the unpaid petition, to
support that matter the petition or | 4:47:34 | 4:47:41 | |
on for people to support the bill,
is at more than 100,000 people. This | 4:47:41 | 4:47:45 | |
practice goes against the sense of
natural justice that most people | 4:47:45 | 4:47:51 | |
have, widespread public support to
remedy this as soon as the through | 4:47:51 | 4:47:55 | |
the clarification of the contractual
relationship between the worker and | 4:47:55 | 4:47:57 | |
theme ploy, and the amendment of
section 64, to require the minimum | 4:47:57 | 4:48:04 | |
wage to be paid to those who
participate in work trials. I state, | 4:48:04 | 4:48:08 | |
as I stated at the beginning of my
contribution, the views of work | 4:48:08 | 4:48:12 | |
trials is part of a much broader
picture, the serious long-term | 4:48:12 | 4:48:15 | |
remedy for this all too common
exploitation is a raft of worker | 4:48:15 | 4:48:19 | |
protection issues, right at the head
of Labour's manifesto commitment, to | 4:48:19 | 4:48:25 | |
give all workers equal rights from
Day 1, whether part or full-time, | 4:48:25 | 4:48:30 | |
temporary or permanent, so working
conditions are not brought down. | 4:48:30 | 4:48:33 | |
After years of the munition of
workers' rights, that will be no | 4:48:33 | 4:48:37 | |
easy task, and we will be faced with
similar loopholes to close and | 4:48:37 | 4:48:42 | |
abusive to tackle but I'm pleased to
offer from our full support from | 4:48:42 | 4:48:46 | |
this bill, dealing with this
particularly unjust form of | 4:48:46 | 4:48:51 | |
exploitation. -- diminution. It
affects so many young people across | 4:48:51 | 4:48:56 | |
this country at the start of their
working lives, with the impression | 4:48:56 | 4:49:00 | |
that then gives them that the world
is stacked against them in their | 4:49:00 | 4:49:04 | |
working career, and if only for that
reason we need to make sure this | 4:49:04 | 4:49:10 | |
passes today. The honourable
gentleman raised an advert as an | 4:49:10 | 4:49:21 | |
unpaid internship. I can confirm to
him, that position was never filled, | 4:49:21 | 4:49:25 | |
it was advertised but never filled.
I am reminded that a paid resurgent | 4:49:25 | 4:49:31 | |
that I had worked for me for a brief
20 days paid travel expenses as an | 4:49:31 | 4:49:38 | |
internship, before she took on the
role as a full-page researcher. It | 4:49:38 | 4:49:44 | |
was so brief that it had slipped my
mind. Madame Deputy Speaker, I | 4:49:44 | 4:49:48 | |
apologise if I miss misled the house
in anyway. Will the honourable | 4:49:48 | 4:49:55 | |
gentleman... The honourable
gentleman has done exactly the right | 4:49:55 | 4:49:58 | |
thing by clarifying as quickly as
possible and putting the record | 4:49:58 | 4:50:03 | |
straight. -- well, the honourable
gentleman has done exactly the right | 4:50:03 | 4:50:06 | |
thing. Can I add my congratulations
to the honourable member for Glasgow | 4:50:06 | 4:50:12 | |
South, for bringing this bill before
the house, I think this is a | 4:50:12 | 4:50:17 | |
fascinating area to explore, and I
speak to you as someone who has had | 4:50:17 | 4:50:20 | |
rather a lot of experience in the
jobs market, before being ornament | 4:50:20 | 4:50:26 | |
on these green benches I was lucky
enough to build up a business and | 4:50:26 | 4:50:29 | |
before that I enjoy many years as a
teacher but before that, I did just | 4:50:29 | 4:50:33 | |
about everything else, I sold
sandwiches, office to office, drove | 4:50:33 | 4:50:37 | |
a delivery van around London, worked
in a nightclub, clean carpets, | 4:50:37 | 4:50:42 | |
worked as a cleaner, restaurant
pianist, a very... Pianist! LAUGHTER | 4:50:42 | 4:50:51 | |
I have worked as a dancer, you name
it, I have done it. I have worked as | 4:50:51 | 4:50:57 | |
a casual worker, zero hour was
worker, and like many of us I have | 4:50:57 | 4:51:01 | |
been a volunteer worker. In many of
these jobs there were times when I | 4:51:01 | 4:51:06 | |
was expected quite reasonably to do
a bit of a trial shift, nothing | 4:51:06 | 4:51:10 | |
major, nothing long-lasting, but
just a test of my limited abilities. | 4:51:10 | 4:51:16 | |
I have to say, some of these trials
were paid. Some were not paid. And | 4:51:16 | 4:51:23 | |
in the ones that were not paid, it
is just about possible for an | 4:51:23 | 4:51:26 | |
unscrupulous potential employer to
work out a way of getting people to | 4:51:26 | 4:51:31 | |
work unpaid on an ongoing basis, but
it would have to involve a very | 4:51:31 | 4:51:37 | |
complicated and convoluted system,
involving many different workers, | 4:51:37 | 4:51:42 | |
and it would already be illegal, any
employer including many of my old | 4:51:42 | 4:51:46 | |
employer is of course currently has
the right to use only legitimate | 4:51:46 | 4:51:51 | |
recruitment practices and tests. In
some areas that I have worked in, | 4:51:51 | 4:51:57 | |
that would include a trial shift but
it must not be excessive in length. | 4:51:57 | 4:52:07 | |
I am going as fast as I can... It is
simply an assessment, a trial, and a | 4:52:07 | 4:52:13 | |
short trial, activities carried out
by a person undergoing that | 4:52:13 | 4:52:17 | |
assessment would not constitute
work, if it did, it would need to be | 4:52:17 | 4:52:22 | |
paid and at least at the national
minimum wage. As the house will | 4:52:22 | 4:52:25 | |
know, this applies from the workers
first day of work regardless as | 4:52:25 | 4:52:28 | |
whether they are regarded as doing a
trial for the Ian Prior, a trial is | 4:52:28 | 4:52:33 | |
already not legitimate wearing
employer has no intention of | 4:52:33 | 4:52:36 | |
offering a job and is just seeking
to obtain the benefit of a bit of | 4:52:36 | 4:52:41 | |
free labour. -- doing a trial for
the lawyer. We already covered in | 4:52:41 | 4:52:47 | |
legislation, and this proposed deal,
I am worried it will not only lead | 4:52:47 | 4:52:50 | |
to additional confusions with the
voluntary sector, it will impose | 4:52:50 | 4:52:54 | |
more regulatory burdens on
employers, leading to the risk that | 4:52:54 | 4:52:57 | |
employers will think twice about
employment, and reducing general | 4:52:57 | 4:53:03 | |
opportunities for people like me to
find work. As vice-chair of the | 4:53:03 | 4:53:08 | |
all-party group for small and micro
business I must also, the Federation | 4:53:08 | 4:53:12 | |
of Small Businesses do not support
this proposed change, for many of | 4:53:12 | 4:53:15 | |
the reasons I have outlined. The
house will also note, the bill has | 4:53:15 | 4:53:19 | |
considerable overlap with the unpaid
work experience Prohibition Bill, | 4:53:19 | 4:53:24 | |
originating in another place that
competed its committee stage on the | 4:53:24 | 4:53:28 | |
13th of March. Members will know
that Bill seeks to prohibit all | 4:53:28 | 4:53:32 | |
unpaid work experience of longer
than forwards, quite rightly. In | 4:53:32 | 4:53:41 | |
conclusion, Madame Deputy Speaker,
while I very much understand the | 4:53:41 | 4:53:45 | |
motivation behind this proposal and
commend the honourable gentleman for | 4:53:45 | 4:53:48 | |
bringing forward the bill, as
someone who has taken part in many | 4:53:48 | 4:53:51 | |
such work trials and assessments, I
take the view, I'm afraid, that not | 4:53:51 | 4:53:57 | |
only is current legislation
sufficient but hardening the law and | 4:53:57 | 4:54:01 | |
creating a blanket ban is not a
productive way, certainly does not | 4:54:01 | 4:54:07 | |
seem to me to be a productive way
for us to proceed. | 4:54:07 | 4:54:12 | |
I think we have heard my views
through interventions on this debate | 4:54:16 | 4:54:22 | |
already. Chris Stevens. I think that
I too have made my remarks very | 4:54:22 | 4:54:33 | |
clear, thank you. Minister. | 4:54:33 | 4:54:36 | |
Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker, May
I congratulate the honourable member | 4:54:41 | 4:54:45 | |
on Glasgow South on his success in
the private members bill ballot, I | 4:54:45 | 4:54:50 | |
am proud to serve as the Minister
responsible for the national living | 4:54:50 | 4:54:54 | |
wage and for workers' rights. I'm
pleased to respond to this important | 4:54:54 | 4:55:01 | |
debate, because, Madame Deputy
Speaker, we all want to see the | 4:55:01 | 4:55:05 | |
rights of workers protected. None of
us wants to seem workers abused or | 4:55:05 | 4:55:11 | |
mistreated or unpaid. That is why
this government is at the cutting | 4:55:11 | 4:55:17 | |
edge of bringing forward new rights
and protections for our workers. The | 4:55:17 | 4:55:22 | |
house will have seen just a few
weeks ago, the response to the | 4:55:22 | 4:55:25 | |
Matthew Taylor report, a truly
ground-breaking report, Madame | 4:55:25 | 4:55:30 | |
Deputy Speaker, that not only looks
at the modern labour force and how | 4:55:30 | 4:55:35 | |
we treat people, but looks to extend
rights and protections to workers | 4:55:35 | 4:55:41 | |
that have never had those rights and
protections before. This is a | 4:55:41 | 4:55:47 | |
government that is proud to protect
workers' rights, and is proving that | 4:55:47 | 4:55:51 | |
we do not need the European Union to
help us bring forward rights and | 4:55:51 | 4:55:57 | |
protections for workers, we are
doing it here in this Parliament as | 4:55:57 | 4:56:02 | |
a result of the work of this
government. And I am very keen to | 4:56:02 | 4:56:06 | |
work with the honourable gentleman,
to address the issues that he has | 4:56:06 | 4:56:13 | |
raised today, and I think there is a
very clear way in which we can do | 4:56:13 | 4:56:16 | |
this without the need for further
regulation. What is clear is that | 4:56:16 | 4:56:23 | |
the law is already very clear in
this point, these things are | 4:56:23 | 4:56:27 | |
outlawed under the current national
minimum... Order, order, debate to | 4:56:27 | 4:56:35 | |
be resumed what day...? | 4:56:35 | 4:56:36 | |
Project. Objection taken. Second
reading what day? Friday 27th of | 4:56:46 | 4:56:55 | |
April. The international film and
assistance Bill second reading. | 4:56:55 | 4:57:05 | |
Objection taken, second reading what
day? Friday 20 symbol of April. | 4:57:05 | 4:57:12 | |
Friday 27th of April. | 4:57:12 | 4:57:18 | |
Friday the 27th of April. Electronic
cigarettes regulation Bill second | 4:57:22 | 4:57:28 | |
reading. Objection taken second
reading what day? Friday 27th of | 4:57:28 | 4:57:34 | |
April. Universal Credit application
advice and assistance Bill second | 4:57:34 | 4:57:40 | |
reading? Objection taken, second
reading what day? Friday the 11th of | 4:57:40 | 4:57:48 | |
May. Courts abuse of process Bill
second reading. Not moved. Emergency | 4:57:48 | 4:57:59 | |
response drivers protection Bill
second reading. Objection taken, | 4:57:59 | 4:58:06 | |
second reading what day? LAUGHTER
Second reading what day? Friday the | 4:58:06 | 4:58:16 | |
6th of July. British Indian Ocean
territory... INAUDIBLE | 4:58:16 | 4:58:25 | |
Objection taken second reading what
day? Friday the 27th of April. | 4:58:25 | 4:58:33 | |
Pedicabs London Bill second reading.
Objection taken second reading what | 4:58:33 | 4:58:40 | |
day? Friday the 27th of April.
Domestic properties minimum energy | 4:58:40 | 4:58:47 | |
performance Bill second reading.
With the leader of the member in | 4:58:47 | 4:58:51 | |
charge, now. Objection taken, what
day? Friday the 27th of April. | 4:58:51 | 4:59:01 | |
Vagrancy repeal Bill second reading.
Now. Objection taken, second reading | 4:59:01 | 4:59:09 | |
what day? Friday 23rd of November.
Voter registration number two Bill | 4:59:09 | 4:59:15 | |
second reading. Objection taken the
second reading what day? Friday the | 4:59:15 | 4:59:25 | |
27th of April. INAUDIBLE
LAUGHTER | 4:59:25 | 4:59:40 | |
Objection taken, second reading what
day? Friday the 27th of April. | 4:59:40 | 4:59:46 | |
Rivers authority is and land
drainage Bill. Objection taken, | 4:59:46 | 4:59:55 | |
second reading what day? Friday the
27th of April. Wild animals in | 4:59:55 | 5:00:05 | |
circuses reading. Objection taken
second reading what day? Friday the | 5:00:05 | 5:00:13 | |
27th of April. Forensics science
regulatory Bill second reading. | 5:00:13 | 5:00:23 | |
Objection taken, second reading what
day? Friday 27th of April. I beg to | 5:00:23 | 5:00:32 | |
move that this house do now adjourn.
The question is that this house do | 5:00:32 | 5:00:37 | |
now adjourn. Helen Hayes. Thank you
Madam Deputy Speaker. I am grateful | 5:00:37 | 5:00:45 | |
the opportunity to bring to the
house today serious issues which | 5:00:45 | 5:00:49 | |
threaten the future of my much loved
local football club Dulwich Hamlet. | 5:00:49 | 5:00:54 | |
And which also have relevance for
local non-league and league clubs | 5:00:54 | 5:00:57 | |
across the country. I want to start
to Mr Deputy Speaker by expressing | 5:00:57 | 5:01:03 | |
my heartfelt gratitude to my
predecessor as MP for Dulwich in | 5:01:03 | 5:01:07 | |
West Norwood Baroness Joel Ward
bricks and his involvement with | 5:01:07 | 5:01:10 | |
Dulwich Hamlet goes back a long way
and who I know is very close to the | 5:01:10 | 5:01:16 | |
hearts of the Dulwich Hamlet
supporters. I also want to thank my | 5:01:16 | 5:01:20 | |
right honourable learned friend the
member for Camberwell and Peckham in | 5:01:20 | 5:01:24 | |
his constituency that champions the
stadium it sets and to support for | 5:01:24 | 5:01:29 | |
this campaign has been invaluable
and the noble Lord Kennedy of | 5:01:29 | 5:01:32 | |
Southwark who has been raising this
issue in the other place added | 5:01:32 | 5:01:37 | |
during there are few
parliamentarians unaware of the | 5:01:37 | 5:01:39 | |
issue facing Dulwich Hamlet and who
have not been photographed wearing | 5:01:39 | 5:01:42 | |
the club scarf. I would like to
thank the supporters trust, the | 5:01:42 | 5:01:48 | |
football club and many of my
constituents who have written to me | 5:01:48 | 5:01:51 | |
about this issue as well as
thousands who turn up to champion | 5:01:51 | 5:01:54 | |
held recently to support the team. I
will speak today about community, a | 5:01:54 | 5:02:00 | |
local community emblematic of the
diversity and confusion which makes | 5:02:00 | 5:02:04 | |
London so great and the National
community galvanised by the same | 5:02:04 | 5:02:07 | |
ideals as our pocket of South East
London. Dulwich Hamlet FC are not | 5:02:07 | 5:02:12 | |
unique in their current struggle,
their cause has received support | 5:02:12 | 5:02:15 | |
from around the world for from the
football community and significantly | 5:02:15 | 5:02:25 | |
from many who are not archetypal
fans of the game but to recognise | 5:02:25 | 5:02:28 | |
the immense community value it
brings. Can I congratulate her on | 5:02:28 | 5:02:30 | |
this wonderful idea promoting young
people's access to sport and can I | 5:02:30 | 5:02:33 | |
also say in this debate how
important it is when they have so | 5:02:33 | 5:02:37 | |
much knife and gun crime that this
provides a meaningful outlet. I | 5:02:37 | 5:02:44 | |
thank my honourable friend for the
intervention, she makes a powerful | 5:02:44 | 5:02:47 | |
point about the role football can
play and I will come onto some of | 5:02:47 | 5:02:51 | |
those issues later. There are
similar stories from the football | 5:02:51 | 5:02:55 | |
community across the country from
sermons deal to Torquay to Hereford | 5:02:55 | 5:02:59 | |
and Coventry, communities are
fragile and the spaces and | 5:02:59 | 5:03:02 | |
institutions which bring people from
a diverse range of backgrounds | 5:03:02 | 5:03:06 | |
together can be rare. Local football
club to provide this focus and | 5:03:06 | 5:03:10 | |
opportunity of friendships to be
developed and bonds strengthened | 5:03:10 | 5:03:13 | |
through the sharing of the
passionate football inspires. I | 5:03:13 | 5:03:19 | |
thank my honourable friend forgiving
way and securing this debate, many | 5:03:19 | 5:03:23 | |
of my constituents have contacted me
and talked about their love and | 5:03:23 | 5:03:26 | |
ability for the club, football clubs
are often the linchpin of | 5:03:26 | 5:03:30 | |
communities but are becoming
increasingly under threat from | 5:03:30 | 5:03:33 | |
buyouts like what we have seen in
Dulwich, do you agree that the | 5:03:33 | 5:03:37 | |
government should look at
strengthening protections for these | 5:03:37 | 5:03:40 | |
community assets? I do indeed agree
more can be done to protect these | 5:03:40 | 5:03:48 | |
powerful institutions. When such
institutions are lost they may be | 5:03:48 | 5:03:52 | |
gone forever, we must do all we can
to keep them alive. The government | 5:03:52 | 5:03:56 | |
may argue it cannot intervene in the
commercial or illegal affairs of any | 5:03:56 | 5:04:00 | |
individual club but the situation at
Dulwich is not the individual, its | 5:04:00 | 5:04:04 | |
representative of a much wider
problem where short-term financial | 5:04:04 | 5:04:07 | |
gain seeks to assert itself over an
institution valued not just in | 5:04:07 | 5:04:12 | |
pounds and pence but people,
friendship, aspiration and history. | 5:04:12 | 5:04:19 | |
I am really pleased my honourable
friend has brought this up and the | 5:04:19 | 5:04:22 | |
Hamlet has got a lot of affection,
but this is bigger and wider than | 5:04:22 | 5:04:27 | |
that club, if we don't have
grassroots football, if we don't | 5:04:27 | 5:04:31 | |
have small teams like he's getting
in my part of a world where we had | 5:04:31 | 5:04:34 | |
the likes of Les Ferdinand and Paul
Merson starting how will we get the | 5:04:34 | 5:04:38 | |
channel into the higher league,
without teams like the Hamlet we | 5:04:38 | 5:04:41 | |
will not have top tier football, she
supports a team in North London the | 5:04:41 | 5:04:48 | |
name of which gets me but without
teams like Hamlet we were not have | 5:04:48 | 5:04:55 | |
teams like spires. I thank my
honourable friend for his | 5:04:55 | 5:04:59 | |
intervention and I agree
wholeheartedly. This year Dulwich | 5:04:59 | 5:05:04 | |
Hamlet celebrated its 125th
anniversary, the historic first took | 5:05:04 | 5:05:11 | |
place on Friday the 20th of January
1893 at the Dulwich Hamlet | 5:05:11 | 5:05:15 | |
elementary school. The team said at
Champion Hill in 1902 the same year | 5:05:15 | 5:05:22 | |
both Manchester United and real
Madrid were founded. It has been | 5:05:22 | 5:05:25 | |
there ever since. Dulwich Hamlet has
a long history and a strong and | 5:05:25 | 5:05:28 | |
proud heritage, they are aforetime
amateur cup winners. In 1948 | 5:05:28 | 5:05:38 | |
champion Hill was used for the
London Olympics hosting football | 5:05:38 | 5:05:41 | |
just as the neighbouring Herne Hill
velodrome in my constituency hosted | 5:05:41 | 5:05:45 | |
cycling. It's not all been plain
sailing over the years, the club | 5:05:45 | 5:05:49 | |
faced closure in the 60s and 80s
they gave up their old ground to | 5:05:49 | 5:05:53 | |
ensure a future and a new stadium.
But Dulwich Hamlet is more than just | 5:05:53 | 5:05:58 | |
a football club. It is part of the
fabric of the local community | 5:05:58 | 5:06:02 | |
through its inclusive and accessible
approach to football heads and | 5:06:02 | 5:06:06 | |
social activities supporting good
causes and the many initiatives led | 5:06:06 | 5:06:09 | |
to the club and its army of
volunteers from Dulwich to Dunkirk | 5:06:09 | 5:06:14 | |
anti-Syria. One fan told of his days
as he beat Bobby in south London and | 5:06:14 | 5:06:20 | |
how Dulwich Hamlet and its
supporters came together to engage | 5:06:20 | 5:06:23 | |
local youngsters with school
competitions, role models and | 5:06:23 | 5:06:27 | |
alternative to getting into trouble.
Just one of countless initiatives | 5:06:27 | 5:06:29 | |
the club has lied in the community.
And the current manager who is in | 5:06:29 | 5:06:33 | |
the gallery today the aspire Academy
has been developed and worked with | 5:06:33 | 5:06:37 | |
hundreds more young people every
year. 35 players from the Academy | 5:06:37 | 5:06:44 | |
have moved into the professional
game but aspire is not just about | 5:06:44 | 5:06:47 | |
success on the field though it is
certainly that, it is not just about | 5:06:47 | 5:06:52 | |
developing better players. Aspire
also tries to instil in our young | 5:06:52 | 5:06:56 | |
people the importance of becoming
better members of their community. I | 5:06:56 | 5:07:00 | |
am proud of the many young people
from aspire who have not gone on to | 5:07:00 | 5:07:04 | |
make a career in football but to
have become outstanding citizens. | 5:07:04 | 5:07:08 | |
The Academy 's work is not limited
to young people however, in recent | 5:07:08 | 5:07:13 | |
years it's seen the club host a
ground-breaking match between the | 5:07:13 | 5:07:17 | |
storm 11 in support of LGBT rights,
they arrange food bank collections | 5:07:17 | 5:07:21 | |
and have sent aid to refugees in
Calais. I have with me a special | 5:07:21 | 5:07:26 | |
edition scarf to celebrate 100 years
of women's suffrage. The list goes | 5:07:26 | 5:07:31 | |
on so Dulwich Hamlet have a strong
community identity. It's a family | 5:07:31 | 5:07:35 | |
club which has brought pressure and
some plain to generations of | 5:07:35 | 5:07:39 | |
supporters. It is often the first
club children attend because it is | 5:07:39 | 5:07:43 | |
local, family friendly and has a
great community feel. Fans need by | 5:07:43 | 5:07:48 | |
and part of a wider local community
and are rightly proud of the way | 5:07:48 | 5:07:52 | |
they are grown to become a central
part of that community and they are | 5:07:52 | 5:07:56 | |
recognised for what they are doing.
The efforts made by the club and its | 5:07:56 | 5:08:00 | |
volunteers to ensure the club
connects with all parts of our local | 5:08:00 | 5:08:04 | |
community recognised in 2016 when
they were awarded the football | 5:08:04 | 5:08:09 | |
foundation committee club of the
year at the national game awards in | 5:08:09 | 5:08:12 | |
London. Everyone wants to keep the
club that way and given the chance I | 5:08:12 | 5:08:15 | |
know they can do more. Dulwich
Hamlet has business sponsors and | 5:08:15 | 5:08:19 | |
partners who back the club
financially, put up posters on | 5:08:19 | 5:08:23 | |
display their scarves because of the
positive image the team has in the | 5:08:23 | 5:08:27 | |
local community and the benefit
supporters bring to local | 5:08:27 | 5:08:29 | |
businesses. The club is heading in
the right direction as recently as | 5:08:29 | 5:08:34 | |
2008, 2009 the club saw average
attendances of just a has risen to | 5:08:34 | 5:08:43 | |
more than 1500 this season proving
the sustainability of the club and | 5:08:43 | 5:08:46 | |
the impact it has on the community.
Dulwich Hamlet have much to | 5:08:46 | 5:08:48 | |
celebrate currently third in the
league and using a promotion to | 5:08:48 | 5:08:50 | |
conference South but off the pitch
the picture is entirely different. | 5:08:50 | 5:08:54 | |
The club was acquired by Meadow
partners with operating partner | 5:08:54 | 5:08:58 | |
Hadley in 2014 and they took
day-to-day control of the club and | 5:08:58 | 5:09:01 | |
paid off a significant number of
debts which came close to driving | 5:09:01 | 5:09:06 | |
the club to bankruptcy. The company
made no secret they were looking to | 5:09:06 | 5:09:09 | |
develop some or all of the current
ground with the club being moved to | 5:09:09 | 5:09:13 | |
more appropriate facilities nearby.
They stated giving the club a | 5:09:13 | 5:09:23 | |
long-term future was an integral
part of their plans. In March 2016 | 5:09:23 | 5:09:25 | |
an application to redevelop the
ground was admitted to Southwark | 5:09:25 | 5:09:27 | |
Council. The plans include provision
for 155 new dwellings as well as a | 5:09:27 | 5:09:30 | |
new stadium for the club to be built
on metropolitan open land which | 5:09:30 | 5:09:33 | |
would be handed over to Dulwich
Hamlet FC fan ownership. But there | 5:09:33 | 5:09:37 | |
was no planning policy designation
for residential use on that site and | 5:09:37 | 5:09:41 | |
of course the very strong planning
protection of Metropolitan open land | 5:09:41 | 5:09:45 | |
so essentially there was no clear
policy framework against which the | 5:09:45 | 5:09:50 | |
council could determine the
application. In December 2017 a | 5:09:50 | 5:09:53 | |
planning appeal was launched on the
grounds Southwark council failed to | 5:09:53 | 5:09:56 | |
reach a decision in the required
timescale. Subsequent legal | 5:09:56 | 5:10:01 | |
wrangling over the football club's
lease resulted in costs for the beer | 5:10:01 | 5:10:06 | |
and £320,000 being awarded against
the club and the developer withdrew | 5:10:06 | 5:10:12 | |
the planning appeal. Following the
withdrawal of the planning appeal | 5:10:12 | 5:10:15 | |
the developer announced they had
withdrawn financial support and | 5:10:15 | 5:10:18 | |
management for the football club
since in their opinion there was no | 5:10:18 | 5:10:20 | |
chance of them being able to build
on the part of the site which was | 5:10:20 | 5:10:23 | |
the subject of the dispute
concerning the lease. In 2017 Meadow | 5:10:23 | 5:10:28 | |
demanded that the football club sign
a new lease to continue playing on | 5:10:28 | 5:10:31 | |
Champion Hill or face eviction, most
recently things have exhilarated | 5:10:31 | 5:10:36 | |
further, Dulwich Hamlet have been
locked out of the ground including | 5:10:36 | 5:10:38 | |
access to club merchandise,
historically reveal and the War | 5:10:38 | 5:10:42 | |
memorial. In a bizarre turn of
events Dulwich Hamlet FC have had | 5:10:42 | 5:10:47 | |
their own name, nickname and
initials are registered as a | 5:10:47 | 5:10:50 | |
trademark and told not to use them
and although I understand there may | 5:10:50 | 5:10:53 | |
have been progress on this issue in
the last few days it is nonetheless | 5:10:53 | 5:10:57 | |
the case that Dulwich Hamlet found
themselves last week without a home | 5:10:57 | 5:11:00 | |
and without a name putting at risk
the historic ground and the basis | 5:11:00 | 5:11:04 | |
for the wonderful work they do. Mr
Deputy Speaker none of this is | 5:11:04 | 5:11:10 | |
necessary, there are number of
alternative issues on the table from | 5:11:10 | 5:11:13 | |
investors willing to do the right
thing. Southwark Council amid a | 5:11:13 | 5:11:18 | |
strong commitment to the club
including taking a formal decision | 5:11:18 | 5:11:21 | |
this week that they would make
capital funding available to acquire | 5:11:21 | 5:11:24 | |
the site but not every club benefits
from such a strong support base our | 5:11:24 | 5:11:31 | |
council. The situation is far from
isolated we are seeing clubs whose | 5:11:31 | 5:11:37 | |
communities face losing access to
vital stats many football clubs | 5:11:37 | 5:11:44 | |
particularly in London are not only
at non-league level have found | 5:11:44 | 5:11:47 | |
themselves homeless and in some case
merged out of business after | 5:11:47 | 5:11:53 | |
following property developers. Could
I ask the Honourable lady what | 5:11:53 | 5:12:01 | |
exactly she, the honourable lady
would like the government to do to | 5:12:01 | 5:12:04 | |
help the club? If the honourable
member bears with the eye will come | 5:12:04 | 5:12:13 | |
to exactly those points. There is a
significant housing crisis in | 5:12:13 | 5:12:17 | |
London, 50,000 new homes a year
needed just to keep up with demand | 5:12:17 | 5:12:21 | |
and the unavoidable fact is that
football clubs commonly set on | 5:12:21 | 5:12:24 | |
expensive sites and are considered
less by the beneath them. | 5:12:24 | 5:12:27 | |
This is not an ardent against
building new homes, which are | 5:12:27 | 5:12:31 | |
essential, but as new homes are
being built, we must also take care | 5:12:31 | 5:12:35 | |
of the fabric of communities,
institutions and places that knit | 5:12:35 | 5:12:38 | |
people together, it is this value
which is never captured on the | 5:12:38 | 5:12:42 | |
developer's balance sheet. The list
of jobs in London under pressure, | 5:12:42 | 5:12:47 | |
Enfield FC, Edgware town, Hendon
town and Berwick have all lost | 5:12:47 | 5:12:51 | |
historic homes, away from London, in
the south-east, where the pressure | 5:12:51 | 5:12:54 | |
on housing and the value of land is
not always so acute, Northampton | 5:12:54 | 5:12:58 | |
town, Kettering town, Torquay
United, Merthyr Tydfil, Coventry, | 5:12:58 | 5:13:02 | |
all facing battles to survive the
property developers circle. As with | 5:13:02 | 5:13:08 | |
Dulwich Hamlet, the teams are part
of their communities. In a symbol of | 5:13:08 | 5:13:13 | |
solidarity, Dulwich Hamlet will play
out their remaining games at | 5:13:13 | 5:13:18 | |
archrivals tooting and's ground, the
club has had messages of support | 5:13:18 | 5:13:22 | |
from countless teams around the
country. More can be done to stop | 5:13:22 | 5:13:25 | |
the situation at Dulwich Hamlet
happening to other clubs, I would | 5:13:25 | 5:13:28 | |
like to end by making another asked
of the Minister, will she commit to | 5:13:28 | 5:13:32 | |
an urgent audit of stadium across
the country, and quantify the extent | 5:13:32 | 5:13:39 | |
and nature of the threat which is
exemplified by the situation at | 5:13:39 | 5:13:42 | |
Dulwich Hamlet? Will she use the
information to make the case to her | 5:13:42 | 5:13:46 | |
colleagues at the Ministry for
housing, communities and local | 5:13:46 | 5:13:50 | |
government for greater protection to
be assigned to league and non-league | 5:13:50 | 5:13:53 | |
football grounds, perhaps using
protections introduced by Labour. | 5:13:53 | 5:13:59 | |
Will she view how it could possibly
come to pass that the trademark | 5:13:59 | 5:14:07 | |
125-year-old football club was
registered seemingly without the | 5:14:07 | 5:14:09 | |
live and continuous use of the
club's name, how could this decision | 5:14:09 | 5:14:12 | |
have possibly been approved by the
intellectual property office, will | 5:14:12 | 5:14:17 | |
she take steps to make sure that no
other football clubs can be | 5:14:17 | 5:14:22 | |
threatened with loss of identity.
Will she looked at the | 5:14:22 | 5:14:25 | |
redistribution of funding within the
football world to grassroots | 5:14:25 | 5:14:29 | |
football, without which the Premier
League will be starved of the talent | 5:14:29 | 5:14:32 | |
it needs to be sustained. I don't
want to interrupt the honourable | 5:14:32 | 5:14:37 | |
lady because she has made an
incredibly powerful case and the | 5:14:37 | 5:14:39 | |
Minister will be keen to respond but
I hope she pays credit to the | 5:14:39 | 5:14:44 | |
football foundation who are doing a
great deal of work in redistribution | 5:14:44 | 5:14:47 | |
money, I compromise the back
appreciate one of the problems with | 5:14:47 | 5:14:50 | |
British football is there is a lot
of money at the top and not at the | 5:14:50 | 5:14:53 | |
feeder clubs, the football
foundation are doing a really good | 5:14:53 | 5:14:57 | |
job for grassroots football, in the
opinion of myself and many | 5:14:57 | 5:14:59 | |
colleagues. I thank you for your
intervention, important point, well | 5:14:59 | 5:15:03 | |
made. Finally, will she progress
with reforms to ensure that the fit | 5:15:03 | 5:15:07 | |
and proper person's test must apply
to non-league ownership, some form | 5:15:07 | 5:15:12 | |
of bond attached to any acquisition,
and explore how fans can play a | 5:15:12 | 5:15:15 | |
greater protective role in the
ownership and governance of league | 5:15:15 | 5:15:19 | |
and non-league football clubs, for
Dulwich Hamlet, the immediate | 5:15:19 | 5:15:22 | |
solution is simple for the club to
be given its home back, the current | 5:15:22 | 5:15:25 | |
breakdown of trust and relationship
between Meadow, the council and the | 5:15:25 | 5:15:30 | |
club is of grave concern. I believe
it would be better for everyone, | 5:15:30 | 5:15:33 | |
including Meadow, for the land to be
sold at fair market value on terms | 5:15:33 | 5:15:37 | |
which guarantee a sustainable future
for the club. I hope the Minister | 5:15:37 | 5:15:40 | |
will also call thank you very much
for joining us on calling on Meadow | 5:15:40 | 5:15:44 | |
to re-engage, and negotiate a way
forward which places a secure for | 5:15:44 | 5:15:48 | |
future for Dulwich Hamlet football
club at its historic home as the | 5:15:48 | 5:15:52 | |
highest priority. Mr happy Speaker,
forward the Hamlet. -- Mr Deputy | 5:15:52 | 5:16:02 | |
Speaker, forward the Hamlet! Thank
you for securing time for this | 5:16:02 | 5:16:06 | |
debate, and I pay credit to the
Thames that she has made and others, | 5:16:06 | 5:16:10 | |
to bring forward these issues which
are using considerable local | 5:16:10 | 5:16:14 | |
concern. I'm not sure that there was
anything I disagreed with, Dulwich | 5:16:14 | 5:16:20 | |
Hamlet football club have been part
of the local community for 125 | 5:16:20 | 5:16:25 | |
years, starting life just like my
two teams of Chatham town and | 5:16:25 | 5:16:29 | |
Tottenham Hotspur, in the Southern
league, when I lived in Herne Hill I | 5:16:29 | 5:16:33 | |
was an occasional visitor myself to
champion Hill. The club may not have | 5:16:33 | 5:16:37 | |
gone on to the dizzy heights of the
Lillywhites, their standing in | 5:16:37 | 5:16:41 | |
non-league football today cannot be
underestimated. They currently sit | 5:16:41 | 5:16:44 | |
near the top of the league, with a
dedicated home following of nearly | 5:16:44 | 5:16:48 | |
2000, this is relatively unheard of
for a team residing in the seventh | 5:16:48 | 5:16:53 | |
tier of English football. That is
alongside all the brilliant Academy | 5:16:53 | 5:16:57 | |
work that the honourable lady
referred to. It is a massive shame | 5:16:57 | 5:17:00 | |
therefore that at a time when we
should be celebrating the | 5:17:00 | 5:17:03 | |
achievements of this unique club, we
are here because of a deep concern | 5:17:03 | 5:17:08 | |
for its immediate future. What is
disappointing is that those concerns | 5:17:08 | 5:17:13 | |
almost entirely operate outside of
the club's management control and on | 5:17:13 | 5:17:16 | |
field performance, instead,
involving the intersection of land | 5:17:16 | 5:17:21 | |
ownership, planning consent and the
issue of community regeneration. | 5:17:21 | 5:17:23 | |
Quite frankly, it is turned into an
utter mess. On the one hand, we have | 5:17:23 | 5:17:31 | |
Meadow partners, the owners of
Champion Hill and plans to develop | 5:17:31 | 5:17:34 | |
the site, and Southwark Council, on
the other side, who have not | 5:17:34 | 5:17:37 | |
accepted the planning permission for
reasons best line by them, it is not | 5:17:37 | 5:17:43 | |
for me to take sides in the planning
dispute but it is hugely | 5:17:43 | 5:17:46 | |
disappointing in this instance, it
is the football club stuck in the | 5:17:46 | 5:17:49 | |
middle and them and the fans who are
the victims of all of this, that is | 5:17:49 | 5:17:54 | |
not right, football clubs remain a
matter of great importance to local | 5:17:54 | 5:17:57 | |
communities and we should never
underestimate their value, every | 5:17:57 | 5:18:00 | |
care must be taken by their owners
and stakeholders to safeguard their | 5:18:00 | 5:18:07 | |
term future. It is a special place
that they hold communities and the | 5:18:07 | 5:18:11 | |
need to preserve them at all costs
which I would like to focus my | 5:18:11 | 5:18:14 | |
attention on today, first, in regard
to Dulwich Hamlet, Southwark Council | 5:18:14 | 5:18:20 | |
have asked for negotiations to begin
you with Meadow over the side, those | 5:18:20 | 5:18:25 | |
negotiations must ensure that the
needs of the club are protected, | 5:18:25 | 5:18:27 | |
should these negotiations fail, and
it is quite clear that they remain | 5:18:27 | 5:18:31 | |
something of an empathic and then I
will look to find and appoint an | 5:18:31 | 5:18:36 | |
independent mediator, who can
facilitate the constructive talks | 5:18:36 | 5:18:40 | |
needed between all parties and in
the process help secure a future for | 5:18:40 | 5:18:45 | |
this well supported community club
for many years to come. I appreciate | 5:18:45 | 5:18:49 | |
Dulwich Hamlet is not the only
football club to have suffered as a | 5:18:49 | 5:18:52 | |
result of island or stadium
development dispute, we need to | 5:18:52 | 5:18:56 | |
learn lessons from this dispute,
where there is separation in the | 5:18:56 | 5:19:00 | |
ownership of the club to that of the
stadium, without pre-empting this, | 5:19:00 | 5:19:04 | |
one lesson, clubs must look at
Robert contractual agreements with | 5:19:04 | 5:19:09 | |
owners, to make the roles and
responsibilities transparent and | 5:19:09 | 5:19:13 | |
sustainable, I will be sitting down
with the Football Association to | 5:19:13 | 5:19:16 | |
ascertain what further steps they
can take to help member clubs engage | 5:19:16 | 5:19:20 | |
in similar situations and prevent
further breakdowns between club and | 5:19:20 | 5:19:24 | |
landowners. I recommend the FA begin
by speaking to the fan organisation | 5:19:24 | 5:19:30 | |
supporters direct, showing an
interest in carrying out a review | 5:19:30 | 5:19:33 | |
into the East End to which Opel
Stadiums in the English league | 5:19:33 | 5:19:36 | |
system are separated from the
ownership of their clubs, who are | 5:19:36 | 5:19:39 | |
primary users. -- to which football
stadiums. With better information of | 5:19:39 | 5:19:50 | |
the risks, fans can ask the right
questions of the right people at | 5:19:50 | 5:19:54 | |
regular intervals, this approach
fits with the government worked with | 5:19:54 | 5:19:58 | |
fine organisations and the football
authorities of recent years, to help | 5:19:58 | 5:20:03 | |
strengthen ownership and engagement
and with regard to what was put | 5:20:03 | 5:20:06 | |
forward, will almost certainly put
forward the protection of football | 5:20:06 | 5:20:14 | |
stadiums by local council, and I
will take further action to speak | 5:20:14 | 5:20:17 | |
with colleagues. To see how they can
engage in this process and follow up | 5:20:17 | 5:20:23 | |
on the point that was made about
trademarks and I will write to her | 5:20:23 | 5:20:27 | |
subsequent to that. The football
authorities have done much work on | 5:20:27 | 5:20:30 | |
regulations around owners and
directors, it may be that regulation | 5:20:30 | 5:20:33 | |
in place for football ground
ownership needs to be also | 5:20:33 | 5:20:37 | |
strengthened, as undeveloped land
increasingly becomes a financial | 5:20:37 | 5:20:40 | |
asset. Members of this house will
remember Wimbledon's controversial | 5:20:40 | 5:20:44 | |
move to Milton Keynes although she
is a go, and in's stands is a | 5:20:44 | 5:20:48 | |
reminder of what can happen when
dispute over stadium can result in a | 5:20:48 | 5:20:55 | |
loss of a club to its community, but
rules were strengthened, which now | 5:20:55 | 5:20:58 | |
ensure that plans are in place for
clubs to remain in towns and cities | 5:20:58 | 5:21:03 | |
that their their name, the current
and frustrating events at Dulwich | 5:21:03 | 5:21:06 | |
Hamlet are a prompt for proper
consideration of the regulations | 5:21:06 | 5:21:09 | |
that exist in relation to stadium
ownership and encompass better | 5:21:09 | 5:21:12 | |
protection of all clubs. In the
meantime, the immediate priority is | 5:21:12 | 5:21:17 | |
for Dulwich Hamlet to fulfil its
fixtures for the remainder of the | 5:21:17 | 5:21:21 | |
season, and my personal thanks go to
tooting and for the offer to ground | 5:21:21 | 5:21:24 | |
share. I fully expect all parties to
sit down and find a way to settle | 5:21:24 | 5:21:32 | |
this, which has the football club as
its primary consideration, I urge | 5:21:32 | 5:21:36 | |
all parties to work to a solution
and if they need someone to mediate | 5:21:36 | 5:21:39 | |
and adjudicate, I will find someone.
I hope it does not come to that and | 5:21:39 | 5:21:44 | |
a solution can be found by the start
of next season. In the meantime, I | 5:21:44 | 5:21:49 | |
wish the club and its supporters for
the rest of the season the very | 5:21:49 | 5:21:54 | |
best, and thank the honourable lady
for her excellent advocacy, on | 5:21:54 | 5:21:57 | |
behalf of the local club and the
fans. Order, order, the eyes have | 5:21:57 | 5:22:14 | |
it, the adjournment. | 5:22:14 | 5:22:25 |