Browse content similar to 20/03/2018. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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any benefit that accrues from the
subsidiary actually goes to the NHS | 0:00:00 | 0:00:02 | |
because it is fully owned by the
public sector. Order. Urgent | 0:00:02 | 0:00:07 | |
question, Alistair Carmichael. I'd
like to thank you for allowing this | 0:00:07 | 0:00:13 | |
urgent question and giving us a
voice in this chamber today. I wish | 0:00:13 | 0:00:17 | |
to ask the Secretary of State for
environment, food and rule affairs | 0:00:17 | 0:00:22 | |
if you'd make a statement on the
progress of negotiations relating to | 0:00:22 | 0:00:26 | |
future fisheries management
associations after the UK leaves the | 0:00:26 | 0:00:28 | |
EU. Thank you. I'd let to thank you
for this opportunity to update the | 0:00:28 | 0:00:37 | |
house. Can I begin by paying tribute
to the hard work of ministers and | 0:00:37 | 0:00:42 | |
especially the civil servants of our
country's negotiating team who | 0:00:42 | 0:00:46 | |
concluded an agreement on the nature
and length of the implementation | 0:00:46 | 0:00:49 | |
period which will help us to prepare
for life after Brexit. An agreed | 0:00:49 | 0:00:58 | |
text will now go to the March
Council of the European Union and | 0:00:58 | 0:01:02 | |
after that council at the end of
this week the Prime Minister will | 0:01:02 | 0:01:06 | |
update the house on Monday. The
house will be aware there are | 0:01:06 | 0:01:10 | |
important legal and technical
questions relating to fisheries | 0:01:10 | 0:01:11 | |
management which means it occupies a
special position in these | 0:01:11 | 0:01:16 | |
negotiations. Both the EU and our
negotiators were always clear | 0:01:16 | 0:01:21 | |
specific arrangements would have to
be agreed for fisheries. Our | 0:01:21 | 0:01:24 | |
proposal to the EU was there during
the implementation period we'd sit | 0:01:24 | 0:01:29 | |
alongside other coastal states as a
third country and equal partner in | 0:01:29 | 0:01:33 | |
annual quota negotiations and in
making that case we did so after | 0:01:33 | 0:01:38 | |
full consultation with
representatives of the fisheries | 0:01:38 | 0:01:40 | |
industry. We pressed hard during
negotiations to secure this outcome | 0:01:40 | 0:01:44 | |
and we are disappointed that you
were not willing to move on this. | 0:01:44 | 0:01:50 | |
However, it is the case that thanks
to the hard work of our negotiating | 0:01:50 | 0:01:55 | |
team, the text was amended from the
original proposal and the commission | 0:01:55 | 0:02:00 | |
have agreed to amendments to the
text which provide additional | 0:02:00 | 0:02:03 | |
reassurance. The revised text
clarifies the UK's share of quotas | 0:02:03 | 0:02:07 | |
will not change during the
implementation period and the UK can | 0:02:07 | 0:02:12 | |
attend international negotiations.
The agreement includes an obligation | 0:02:12 | 0:02:15 | |
on both sides to act in good faith
throughout the implementation period | 0:02:15 | 0:02:20 | |
and any attempt by the EU to operate
in a way which would harm the | 0:02:20 | 0:02:24 | |
fishing industry would breach that
obligation. These arrangements were | 0:02:24 | 0:02:28 | |
all dig-mac only apply to
negotiations in December 2019 where, | 0:02:28 | 0:02:32 | |
at the table, and in December 2020,
we will be negotiating fishing | 0:02:32 | 0:02:41 | |
opportunities as a third country and
independent coastal state deciding | 0:02:41 | 0:02:44 | |
who can access our waters and on
what terms for the first time in | 0:02:44 | 0:02:48 | |
over 40 years. It is important we
use this transition period to ensure | 0:02:48 | 0:02:56 | |
we can negotiate as a third country
and independent coastal state in | 0:02:56 | 0:03:00 | |
2020 to maximise the benefits for
our coastal communities to ensure we | 0:03:00 | 0:03:04 | |
can control who accesses our waters,
on what times and ensure we manage | 0:03:04 | 0:03:09 | |
our marine resources sustainably. We
are already looking at a range of | 0:03:09 | 0:03:13 | |
considerations for future fishing
opportunities. In the UK, exclusive | 0:03:13 | 0:03:22 | |
economic zone. There is a
significant prize at the end of the | 0:03:22 | 0:03:27 | |
implementation period and it is
important that all of us in every | 0:03:27 | 0:03:30 | |
area accept this and period is
necessary. For our coastal | 0:03:30 | 0:03:40 | |
environment, it is an opportunity.
It is critical that all of us in the | 0:03:40 | 0:03:47 | |
interest of the whole nation keep
our eyes on that prize. I'd like to | 0:03:47 | 0:03:54 | |
thank the Secretary of State for
that answer. As recently as two | 0:03:54 | 0:03:57 | |
weeks ago the Prime Minister didn't
see this as a necessary step. I have | 0:03:57 | 0:04:02 | |
to tell him if he doesn't already
know it that the mood in fishing | 0:04:02 | 0:04:07 | |
communities today is one of palpable
anger. This is not what they were | 0:04:07 | 0:04:14 | |
promised. And the basic question the
Secretary of State has to answer | 0:04:14 | 0:04:18 | |
today is this. If they can let us
down like this over the deal on a | 0:04:18 | 0:04:25 | |
transitional period, how do we know
they will not do it again when it | 0:04:25 | 0:04:28 | |
comes to the final deal? When it
comes to it, will they trade away | 0:04:28 | 0:04:32 | |
access for waters to access for
markets or anything else? Mr | 0:04:32 | 0:04:38 | |
Speaker, the house needs to hear
today how this bizarre arrangement | 0:04:38 | 0:04:41 | |
is going to work in practice. The EU
Norway deal in macro is due to | 0:04:41 | 0:04:48 | |
expire at the end of this year. We
thought it would be rolled over for | 0:04:48 | 0:04:52 | |
12 months. Is it still going to be
the case? And Swat Valley will there | 0:04:52 | 0:04:57 | |
be to the EU Commission agreeing
another bad heels for our feet? The | 0:04:57 | 0:05:06 | |
Secretary of State should know that
British boats have a particular | 0:05:06 | 0:05:09 | |
problem with hate as a choke
species. That is a problem for our | 0:05:09 | 0:05:15 | |
fleet and nobody else. Does he
really expect the other 27 member | 0:05:15 | 0:05:21 | |
countries are going to come up with
a solution to something that is a | 0:05:21 | 0:05:25 | |
problem only for us and not for
them? Mr Speaker, it is reported the | 0:05:25 | 0:05:31 | |
government's Chief Whip today turned
back yesterday told his backbenchers | 0:05:31 | 0:05:37 | |
it isn't like the fishermen are
going to vote Labour. If that is | 0:05:37 | 0:05:44 | |
true, it betrays a certain attitude
and the Secretary of State shouldn't | 0:05:44 | 0:05:48 | |
be complacent. He should not take it
for granted that in the future they | 0:05:48 | 0:05:53 | |
will be voting Tory either. I'm very
grateful to the honourable gentleman | 0:05:53 | 0:05:59 | |
Orchestra and detailed comments. The
first thing I'd happily acknowledge | 0:05:59 | 0:06:04 | |
is there is disappointment in
fishing communities. I know as | 0:06:04 | 0:06:07 | |
someone whose father was a fish
merchant and his grandparents went | 0:06:07 | 0:06:10 | |
to see two fish I understand how
fishing communities feel about the | 0:06:10 | 0:06:15 | |
situation. I share the
disappointment. The second thing is | 0:06:15 | 0:06:20 | |
the honourable gentleman asks about
future negotiations and the role we | 0:06:20 | 0:06:22 | |
will play. There is a unique
12-month period leading up to 2019 | 0:06:22 | 0:06:28 | |
when at the end of 2019 in the
December council the EU will argue | 0:06:28 | 0:06:32 | |
on the UK's behalf the UK will be
there as part of the delegation, | 0:06:32 | 0:06:38 | |
consulted in order to ensure all the
legitimate interests he raises are | 0:06:38 | 0:06:42 | |
fairly represented. It's also the
case he raises the discard ban. The | 0:06:42 | 0:06:49 | |
truth is every single fishing nation
is affected by it and buy a choke | 0:06:49 | 0:06:52 | |
species and that we operate
collectively with our neighbours in | 0:06:52 | 0:06:56 | |
order to ensure that we have the
correct means of marine conservation | 0:06:56 | 0:07:00 | |
because unless we have a system that
involves the discard ban, we can | 0:07:00 | 0:07:05 | |
have overfishing which has led in
the past to an unhappy outcome to | 0:07:05 | 0:07:09 | |
fishing communities. The final point
is that of course no one takes any | 0:07:09 | 0:07:14 | |
one vote for granted, certainly not
the votes of people who work so hard | 0:07:14 | 0:07:17 | |
in order to make sure we have food
and played. The only party in this | 0:07:17 | 0:07:21 | |
house actually committed to leaving
the common fisheries policy is the | 0:07:21 | 0:07:25 | |
Conservative Party. | 0:07:25 | 0:07:32 | |
I should say, in Fenners, our
colleagues in the Democratic | 0:07:32 | 0:07:39 | |
Unionist Party share that as well.
It's critical that we ensure that | 0:07:39 | 0:07:42 | |
leaving the common fisheries policy
at the end of that, means that the | 0:07:42 | 0:07:50 | |
communities that all of us have the
one of representing benefit from | 0:07:50 | 0:07:57 | |
what that will bring. Another
secretary state knows that 45 years | 0:07:57 | 0:08:01 | |
ago the fishermen felt they have a
very bad deal. They want their | 0:08:01 | 0:08:04 | |
fishing rights back. Can I be
reassured by him that as we have | 0:08:04 | 0:08:09 | |
this interim deal that we can
actually register ourselves as an | 0:08:09 | 0:08:11 | |
independent coastal state, so that
on the 1st of January 21 we have | 0:08:11 | 0:08:17 | |
complete control of our waters? Yes,
my honourable friend the chairman of | 0:08:17 | 0:08:22 | |
the select committee is absolutely
right. One of the things we can do | 0:08:22 | 0:08:25 | |
is make sure that not just from the
1st of January 2021, but in December | 0:08:25 | 0:08:31 | |
2020, that we are negotiating as an
independent coastal state and we | 0:08:31 | 0:08:34 | |
will be able to join the fishermen
management association in advance of | 0:08:34 | 0:08:39 | |
those, which any state has to be
part of to ensure that the marine | 0:08:39 | 0:08:45 | |
environment is adequately protected.
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I'm grateful | 0:08:45 | 0:08:48 | |
to the right honourable member for
Orkney and Shetland for securing | 0:08:48 | 0:08:51 | |
this urgent question and for the
secretary state's opening comments. | 0:08:51 | 0:09:01 | |
But I still have several questions.
The secretary of state, alongside | 0:09:01 | 0:09:03 | |
fisheries minister, have asserted
time and time again that the UK | 0:09:03 | 0:09:05 | |
would take back absolute control of
the Borders after leaving the | 0:09:05 | 0:09:10 | |
European Union and the London
Fisheries Convention. Following | 0:09:10 | 0:09:12 | |
those announcements, we know that
the rest of the Government has been | 0:09:12 | 0:09:16 | |
having very different conversations
with the EU 27. The announcement | 0:09:16 | 0:09:20 | |
made by the sexual state for exiting
the European Union and the chief | 0:09:20 | 0:09:24 | |
negotiator Michel Barnier, head of
the negotiations, made clear that | 0:09:24 | 0:09:30 | |
the UK would continue to be part of
the fisheries policy in a | 0:09:30 | 0:09:34 | |
post-Brexit transition period,
extended to 2020. The announcement | 0:09:34 | 0:09:36 | |
that the total allowable catch will
remain unchanged during the | 0:09:36 | 0:09:42 | |
transition period contradicts all
previous Government statements, and | 0:09:42 | 0:09:47 | |
it is understandable that many
coastal MPs and fishing divinities | 0:09:47 | 0:09:49 | |
feel so angry and let down. The
government backed's failure to meet | 0:09:49 | 0:09:54 | |
previously stated aims through
negotiations is one that requires | 0:09:54 | 0:09:58 | |
greater explanation and examination
on the floor of the house. This | 0:09:58 | 0:10:02 | |
Government must be absolutely clear
about who is leading the | 0:10:02 | 0:10:04 | |
negotiations on fishing and what its
position is. Has the government | 0:10:04 | 0:10:08 | |
backed failed to secure the desired
position, as advocated by the | 0:10:08 | 0:10:13 | |
fisheries minister, all was that
never the position of the | 0:10:13 | 0:10:15 | |
negotiating team? If the red line
has moved, and the secretary of | 0:10:15 | 0:10:20 | |
state tell the house if there has
been an exchange and what wasn't | 0:10:20 | 0:10:24 | |
secured instead? Last week, I asked
the Fisheries Minister if he had | 0:10:24 | 0:10:35 | |
seen the negotiation, and what was
the response? He said at the end of | 0:10:35 | 0:10:41 | |
the day does not matter what the
European Union asks for, but what we | 0:10:41 | 0:10:43 | |
are prepared to grant it. Can the
secretary of state be explicit in | 0:10:43 | 0:10:48 | |
outlining what the Government is
prepared to grant the EU in relation | 0:10:48 | 0:10:52 | |
to fisheries? Can he also inform the
house what the transition | 0:10:52 | 0:10:55 | |
arrangement with EU will mean for
the London Convention? Sexual state | 0:10:55 | 0:10:59 | |
will have seen the comments from the
less than satisfied fishing -- the | 0:10:59 | 0:11:04 | |
Secretary of State will have seen
the comments from less than fishing | 0:11:04 | 0:11:08 | |
amenities. It must have a
sustainable approach at its very | 0:11:08 | 0:11:13 | |
core. What we now need from the
Government is a move away from the | 0:11:13 | 0:11:16 | |
chaotic approach we have seen this
week, and instead honesty and | 0:11:16 | 0:11:19 | |
clarity about the negotiating
position and exactly what that | 0:11:19 | 0:11:23 | |
means, Mr Speaker, for the fishing
industry. I am grateful to the | 0:11:23 | 0:11:28 | |
honourable lady for her questions.
The first thing to make clear is | 0:11:28 | 0:11:32 | |
that the London Fisheries Convention
we will be leaving, and we will be | 0:11:32 | 0:11:36 | |
out of that, and the Common
fisheries policy, by the time the | 0:11:36 | 0:11:39 | |
fermentation period ends. It is also
important to recognise that during | 0:11:39 | 0:11:43 | |
the period that the fermentation
period covers, it will be the case | 0:11:43 | 0:11:50 | |
that our share of total allowable
catch will not be altered. This is a | 0:11:50 | 0:11:54 | |
protection during the period of 2019
for all of those that want to make | 0:11:54 | 0:11:58 | |
sure that we have, during that
period, the stability required in | 0:11:58 | 0:12:01 | |
order to prepare for the additional
opportunities that will come at the | 0:12:01 | 0:12:07 | |
end of this fermentation period. The
critical point remains that the | 0:12:07 | 0:12:10 | |
dividing line, I hesitate to say it
redline, but the dividing line | 0:12:10 | 0:12:16 | |
between the Government and its
supporters and those that are its | 0:12:16 | 0:12:19 | |
critics is that we believe when we
leave the European union we should | 0:12:19 | 0:12:21 | |
leave the Common Fisheries Policy.
It is not the position of any other | 0:12:21 | 0:12:24 | |
party in this house that we should
leave the Common Fisheries Policy | 0:12:24 | 0:12:27 | |
and take advantage of the
opportunities that accrue. In that | 0:12:27 | 0:12:30 | |
regard, the comments of my right
honourable friend about the capacity | 0:12:30 | 0:12:34 | |
of the UK to say what it will accept
and what it will not accept refers | 0:12:34 | 0:12:41 | |
clearly and unambiguously to what
will occur after the implimentation | 0:12:41 | 0:12:44 | |
period ends and we are an
independent coastal state outside | 0:12:44 | 0:12:48 | |
the European Union. Thank you, Mr
Speaker, for granting this urgent | 0:12:48 | 0:12:55 | |
question. I think it shows the level
of interest in this subject across | 0:12:55 | 0:13:00 | |
the house. I am sure the secretary
of state will understand that there | 0:13:00 | 0:13:03 | |
is no way I can sell this deal in
the transition period as anything | 0:13:03 | 0:13:08 | |
like a success to fishing amenities
in Moray, Scotland or the UK. Can | 0:13:08 | 0:13:15 | |
the Secretary of State confirm that
when we leave the Common Fisheries | 0:13:15 | 0:13:17 | |
Policy in 2020 we will have full
control over fish stocks and vessel | 0:13:17 | 0:13:23 | |
access? If fishing amenities feel
let down and anger that this | 0:13:23 | 0:13:30 | |
Government is doing at the moment,
they need that guarantee. That will | 0:13:30 | 0:13:33 | |
be the case across the north-east of
Scotland and across the United | 0:13:33 | 0:13:36 | |
Kingdom, people will be disappointed
that the proposal that we sought to | 0:13:36 | 0:13:40 | |
ensure that would apply for 2019 did
not apply for that year. I think it | 0:13:40 | 0:13:45 | |
is also important to recognise that
this is a 12 month additional | 0:13:45 | 0:13:49 | |
extension to the maintenance of the
EU | 0:13:49 | 0:13:57 | |
extension to the maintenance of the
EU, and we accept that to secure the | 0:13:57 | 0:14:00 | |
greater prize, which he is right to
remind the house is only available | 0:14:00 | 0:14:03 | |
if we leave the Common Fisheries
Policy, take back control and make | 0:14:03 | 0:14:08 | |
absolutely clear to other countries
that access and quotas will be in | 0:14:08 | 0:14:10 | |
our hands. Mr Speaker, with the
Conservatives it is always somebody | 0:14:10 | 0:14:19 | |
else's false, Mr Speaker. When the
Conservatives tag -- somebody else's | 0:14:19 | 0:14:25 | |
fault. When they took us into the
Common Fisheries Policy, Scotland's | 0:14:25 | 0:14:32 | |
fishermen were described as
expendable. We are used to Scottish | 0:14:32 | 0:14:35 | |
Tory sell-outs, but even Scotland's
fishermen will be surprised how | 0:14:35 | 0:14:38 | |
quickly that one was turned around.
Will the Minister tell me at what | 0:14:38 | 0:14:44 | |
point the fishermen became a
bargaining chip, or has that been | 0:14:44 | 0:14:46 | |
the case all along? Does he agree
with me that we are now in the worst | 0:14:46 | 0:14:51 | |
of all worlds, that we are in the
Common Fisheries Policy, but no say, | 0:14:51 | 0:14:55 | |
and will he also tell me why, over
the years, the SNP has proposed | 0:14:55 | 0:15:00 | |
changes to bring greater control
over fishing policies, but they have | 0:15:00 | 0:15:04 | |
been rejected? Does he agree with me
that it is because it is a big | 0:15:04 | 0:15:08 | |
industry in Scotland, important to
the Scottish Government, but means | 0:15:08 | 0:15:11 | |
nothing at Westminster? | 0:15:11 | 0:15:14 | |
Mr Speaker, psychologists have a
phenomenon called projection, it | 0:15:18 | 0:15:20 | |
means when you describe someone else
you are really talking about | 0:15:20 | 0:15:23 | |
yourself. It is really interesting
that the Scottish National Party | 0:15:23 | 0:15:27 | |
spokesman should talk about always
blaming somebody else. It always | 0:15:27 | 0:15:31 | |
being somebody else's fault. For a
party that has raised grievance to | 0:15:31 | 0:15:35 | |
an artform, they have a downed cheek
making that case. They have a | 0:15:35 | 0:15:44 | |
particular cheek making that case,
because it is the Scottish | 0:15:44 | 0:15:53 | |
Nationalists's policy to stay in a
customs union and the Common | 0:15:53 | 0:15:56 | |
Fisheries Policy. The party that is
committed to giving Scottish | 0:15:56 | 0:16:04 | |
fishermen and all fishermen across
the United Kingdom a brighter future | 0:16:04 | 0:16:06 | |
by leaving the Common Fisheries
Policy is this party and this | 0:16:06 | 0:16:11 | |
Government. I'm afraid the 90
seconds of concentrated... What is | 0:16:11 | 0:16:15 | |
the word? It is probably
unparliamentary. The 90 seconds that | 0:16:15 | 0:16:21 | |
we just heard from the gentleman, I
think, will be met with the contempt | 0:16:21 | 0:16:26 | |
it deserves. I think it was 56
seconds. The honourable gentleman | 0:16:26 | 0:16:30 | |
has involved in some statistical
rounding. John Redwood? Will the | 0:16:30 | 0:16:36 | |
Government go to the council that we
can say the deal from the EU is | 0:16:36 | 0:16:39 | |
unacceptable, that we voted to take
back control of fish, money, Borders | 0:16:39 | 0:16:44 | |
and laws, we have accepted a two
year, nine month transitional | 0:16:44 | 0:16:48 | |
period, so will the Government just
get on with it? I completely | 0:16:48 | 0:16:52 | |
understand the Right Honourable
Gentleman's feelings on this matter. | 0:16:52 | 0:16:54 | |
I want to reassure him that our
negotiating team negotiated hard | 0:16:54 | 0:16:58 | |
coming good faith, and armed with
the support of our fisheries | 0:16:58 | 0:17:09 | |
industry to try to get the best
possible deal. We did not get | 0:17:09 | 0:17:12 | |
everything we wanted, but it is the
case that it is the view of this | 0:17:12 | 0:17:15 | |
Government, and I think the majority
of people in this house, that we | 0:17:15 | 0:17:17 | |
need to make sure that this
negotiation period succeeds to get | 0:17:17 | 0:17:20 | |
the greater prize that Brexit gives
at the end of it. I would like to | 0:17:20 | 0:17:23 | |
congratulate the honourable member
for submitting this urgent question. | 0:17:23 | 0:17:26 | |
The truth is that the Tories are
treating this industry as | 0:17:26 | 0:17:30 | |
expendable. The Secretary of State
talked about revival. But industry | 0:17:30 | 0:17:33 | |
can't revive based on the status quo
the Government has delivered on the | 0:17:33 | 0:17:37 | |
CFP. Does he understand why my
constituency, Great Grimsby, will | 0:17:37 | 0:17:41 | |
see this as a total sell-out, with
not even a say at the negotiating | 0:17:41 | 0:17:44 | |
table for the next two years? It is
not the case that anybody on this | 0:17:44 | 0:17:49 | |
side of the house regards fishing
communities or the fishing community | 0:17:49 | 0:17:52 | |
as expendable. That is why we are | 0:17:52 | 0:18:04 | |
investing more in our top-level
marine scientific advisory bodies, | 0:18:08 | 0:18:10 | |
why we are investing more in the
marine management organisations that | 0:18:10 | 0:18:12 | |
will be responsible for making sure
our fisheries industry is effective. | 0:18:12 | 0:18:14 | |
Why we are investing more in
protection vessels to ensure that | 0:18:14 | 0:18:16 | |
the opportunities, DC opportunity
from outside the CFP can be properly | 0:18:16 | 0:18:19 | |
taken advantage of. The idea we
don't care about fisheries and the | 0:18:19 | 0:18:21 | |
idea we are not investing in their
future, it is not true. The | 0:18:21 | 0:18:24 | |
honourable lady may express
disappointment. I will frankly | 0:18:24 | 0:18:25 | |
expressed his appointment that we
did not secure everything we wanted | 0:18:25 | 0:18:27 | |
in these negotiations. It is vitally
important we all focus on the bigger | 0:18:27 | 0:18:30 | |
prize ahead, and I can completely
understand why there are some | 0:18:30 | 0:18:33 | |
people, and I exempt the honourable
lady, who wants to make partisan | 0:18:33 | 0:18:37 | |
points. But the future of the
fishing industry is bigger than | 0:18:37 | 0:18:39 | |
that. Mr Speaker, why won't my right
honourable friend and Sir | 0:18:39 | 0:18:48 | |
specifically the question raised by
our honourable friend for Moray? Why | 0:18:48 | 0:18:53 | |
will he not give a guarantee that in
2020 we will take back control over | 0:18:53 | 0:18:57 | |
our fishing and our waters? I had
believed, and I must apologise to | 0:18:57 | 0:19:03 | |
the house if I did not make it
clear, that I made it clear in my | 0:19:03 | 0:19:08 | |
original statement that even before
the transition period ends, we will | 0:19:08 | 0:19:12 | |
be negotiating as an independent
coastal state. I hope that is | 0:19:12 | 0:19:15 | |
sufficient guarantee and reassurance
to my right honourable friend, as | 0:19:15 | 0:19:18 | |
well as my honourable friend, the
member for Moray. Given we export | 0:19:18 | 0:19:25 | |
such a large proportion of prawns
and other shellfish to Europe, | 0:19:25 | 0:19:28 | |
shouldn't we have the freest
possible trade with Europe? Yes. | 0:19:28 | 0:19:35 | |
Jacob Rees-Mogg? | 0:19:35 | 0:19:36 | |
I am slightly concerned by my right
honourable friend's tone in relation | 0:19:40 | 0:19:44 | |
to negotiations that the European
Commission would not allow us | 0:19:44 | 0:19:47 | |
something. In a negotiation, surely
it is a question of what importance | 0:19:47 | 0:19:50 | |
we put on something as to whether we
get it? Therefore, I ask my right | 0:19:50 | 0:19:54 | |
honourable friend what did we get in
return? The big prize that we have | 0:19:54 | 0:20:00 | |
secured is an implimentation period
that allows us as a country to | 0:20:00 | 0:20:03 | |
prepare for all of the benefits
Brexit will bring. Having campaigned | 0:20:03 | 0:20:05 | |
with the Right Honourable Gentleman
ensure that Britain can leave the | 0:20:05 | 0:20:15 | |
European Union, it is important we
do so in good order. It allows us | 0:20:15 | 0:20:18 | |
the time and space to do just that.
As the sector stayed well knows, | 0:20:18 | 0:20:21 | |
meetings of the fisheries Council
tend to go on into the early hours. | 0:20:21 | 0:20:25 | |
-- the secretary of state. Could he
clarify, under the terms of the | 0:20:25 | 0:20:31 | |
transitional agreement, whether
Britain will have the possibility of | 0:20:31 | 0:20:36 | |
being in the room when those
decisions are made, or does Article | 0:20:36 | 0:20:42 | |
125 of the draft agreement mean that
we will be able to provide comment? | 0:20:42 | 0:20:46 | |
If we can only provide comments,
what impact does he expect the | 0:20:46 | 0:20:50 | |
comments to have one final decisions
are taken in the meeting itself? It | 0:20:50 | 0:20:54 | |
is very clear we will be consulted,
not just consulted in a perfunctory | 0:20:54 | 0:21:00 | |
way. The scientific advice and
evidence that our top-level marine | 0:21:00 | 0:21:05 | |
scientists generate will also shape
the negotiations. It is only for one | 0:21:05 | 0:21:09 | |
year, December 19, that we will be
in that position. The principle of | 0:21:09 | 0:21:14 | |
the European Union operating in good
faith towards the UK is one that I | 0:21:14 | 0:21:18 | |
do take seriously, because if the
European Union were to act in a way | 0:21:18 | 0:21:21 | |
come in at one year, that would
demonstrate bad faith, apart from | 0:21:21 | 0:21:25 | |
the mechanisms that police the
withdrawal agreement and the | 0:21:25 | 0:21:28 | |
implantation period, it would also
be the case that Britain, having | 0:21:28 | 0:21:30 | |
taken back control of its waters,
might be in a position to be less | 0:21:30 | 0:21:33 | |
generous than the EU would want us
to be. | 0:21:33 | 0:21:39 | |
The economy of Cleethorpes and its
adjoining towns have never really | 0:21:39 | 0:21:43 | |
recovered from what locals see as
the betrayal in the original | 0:21:43 | 0:21:46 | |
negotiations to enter the EU. During
the times, successive governments | 0:21:46 | 0:21:54 | |
have not given sufficient attention
to coastal communities. Can the | 0:21:54 | 0:21:58 | |
Secretary of State assure me that he
and other government departments | 0:21:58 | 0:22:01 | |
will support these coastal
communities to a greater extent, but | 0:22:01 | 0:22:05 | |
a clean now they've got to wait that
little bit longer before the | 0:22:05 | 0:22:11 | |
benefits of leaving the EU are fully
felt? I think my friend Mike is | 0:22:11 | 0:22:15 | |
right in two areas. Number-1-mac, we
are the waiting longer before we are | 0:22:15 | 0:22:22 | |
out of the common fisheries policy. | 0:22:22 | 0:22:33 | |
As we mentioned earlier, to reverse
that trend, it's important we | 0:22:33 | 0:22:38 | |
recognise the particular challenges
coastal communities face in the | 0:22:38 | 0:22:41 | |
decline of fishing is one of
acquiring attention from the | 0:22:41 | 0:22:44 | |
government. I must declare an
interest. My daughter Lisa Roberts | 0:22:44 | 0:22:55 | |
and her partner Sean Williams bought
a fishing vessel master and they are | 0:22:55 | 0:22:59 | |
ambitious and excited at the start
of their business venture. What the | 0:22:59 | 0:23:03 | |
minister proposes means they now
face a maelstrom of perishable | 0:23:03 | 0:23:08 | |
foodstuffs held up at customs,
continued pressure on seafood | 0:23:08 | 0:23:11 | |
species and no say over quotas and
alternative catches. In what way has | 0:23:11 | 0:23:17 | |
and he used the fishermen and women
as Brexit bait? May I wish the | 0:23:17 | 0:23:26 | |
honourable lady's all the very best
in taking to see. Coming from a | 0:23:26 | 0:23:31 | |
family with a fishing heritage
myself, I know the risks and rewards | 0:23:31 | 0:23:35 | |
that come from pursuing fishing
opportunities. In her very eloquent | 0:23:35 | 0:23:41 | |
question she conflated a variety of
issues, some to do with quotas, some | 0:23:41 | 0:23:46 | |
to do with trading opportunities.
When it comes to future negotiations | 0:23:46 | 0:23:51 | |
over trade should be separate
fishing. It is just as well the | 0:23:51 | 0:24:02 | |
implementation period is shorter
than was sought, isn't it? As | 0:24:02 | 0:24:09 | |
ever... I have to say that my
honourable friend sums up my | 0:24:09 | 0:24:15 | |
thoughts with more pith and
eloquence than I can aspire to. | 0:24:15 | 0:24:24 | |
Sometimes, the Minister is so able
he beguiles the house and we are | 0:24:24 | 0:24:30 | |
unsure what he believes. Following
the example he has just given, can | 0:24:30 | 0:24:36 | |
he offered two yess to these
questions, when we leave will be | 0:24:36 | 0:24:43 | |
control fishing waters totally?
Wilkie offer every fishing port | 0:24:43 | 0:24:47 | |
Freeport status? I can say yes to
the first. On the second, that is | 0:24:47 | 0:24:53 | |
above my pay grade. As for knowing
what I believe, I think the best | 0:24:53 | 0:24:59 | |
guide has always been the honourable
gentleman's capacity to get to the | 0:24:59 | 0:25:05 | |
heart of the matter, as he does so
effectively on this issue. Brixham | 0:25:05 | 0:25:13 | |
in my constituency lands the most
valuable catch in England so will | 0:25:13 | 0:25:16 | |
the Secretary of State visit it in
person to meet with all parts of the | 0:25:16 | 0:25:20 | |
sector to do dig-mac discuss the
serious concerns they have that the | 0:25:20 | 0:25:28 | |
final deal... My honourable friend
has been persistent lobbyist for | 0:25:28 | 0:25:37 | |
Brixham and all those associated
with that industry privately and I'd | 0:25:37 | 0:25:40 | |
like to thank her for the work she
has done. The industry in Brixham | 0:25:40 | 0:25:46 | |
has a highly effective and able
advocate and of course I will visit | 0:25:46 | 0:25:51 | |
those fishermen in her constituency
to explain to them how we intend to | 0:25:51 | 0:25:55 | |
ensure that after the implementation
period the opportunities available | 0:25:55 | 0:25:57 | |
to them are theirs to enjoy. When is
the Secretary of State going to | 0:25:57 | 0:26:05 | |
explain to the house article 157 of
the draft agreement that was | 0:26:05 | 0:26:11 | |
discussed between the Secretary of
State for exiting the EU and Michel | 0:26:11 | 0:26:15 | |
Barnier which sets out a new joint
committee between the EU and UK for | 0:26:15 | 0:26:21 | |
deciding all matters in relation to
the transition period including | 0:26:21 | 0:26:26 | |
fisheries, citizens' rights,
everything, but gives no power | 0:26:26 | 0:26:28 | |
whatsoever for Parliament to have
any say on any of those issues? How | 0:26:28 | 0:26:34 | |
can Parliament, having heard his
decision today, have this voice | 0:26:34 | 0:26:39 | |
during this transition period? I
know the honourable gentleman takes | 0:26:39 | 0:26:45 | |
seriously his duties. One thing I'd
say is there is a draft agreement | 0:26:45 | 0:26:50 | |
which covers a variety of issues. I
am answering questions relating to | 0:26:50 | 0:26:56 | |
fishing. That draft agreement will
be agreed in March, I hope. The | 0:26:56 | 0:27:02 | |
Prime Minister will be here on
Monday and she will be giving a | 0:27:02 | 0:27:05 | |
statement then and there will be an
opportunity to have the honourable | 0:27:05 | 0:27:09 | |
gentleman's question answered fully.
Like many fishermen across Scotland, | 0:27:09 | 0:27:15 | |
I feel very badly let down by this
deal because not going to take | 0:27:15 | 0:27:20 | |
control of our waters as quickly as
we'd hoped. Wonder if my honourable | 0:27:20 | 0:27:25 | |
friend will give me the guarantee
that we will seek control of our | 0:27:25 | 0:27:30 | |
vessels and mortars after we finally
come out of this initial period as | 0:27:30 | 0:27:35 | |
we leave the EU? Can I thank the
honourable gentleman for mentioning | 0:27:35 | 0:27:39 | |
and raising the role of the Scottish
Federation for fishing. I felt his | 0:27:39 | 0:27:45 | |
response to Dave balancing the
disappointment many felt that we got | 0:27:45 | 0:27:51 | |
the right deal at the end of this
process was a constructive approach, | 0:27:51 | 0:27:55 | |
reflected in the question put by my
honourable friend and it is the case | 0:27:55 | 0:28:00 | |
that we will seek to secure those
opportunities of the Scottish | 0:28:00 | 0:28:05 | |
fishermen 's Federation and others
want to secure. What a load of | 0:28:05 | 0:28:10 | |
codswallop from the Secretary of
State who is all out at sea on this | 0:28:10 | 0:28:14 | |
issue. They will never be trusted
ever again by the Scottish | 0:28:14 | 0:28:18 | |
fishermen. He drew a lead line with
the leader of the Scottish | 0:28:18 | 0:28:21 | |
Conservatives which has gone
quicker. Can he save us time and | 0:28:21 | 0:28:27 | |
tell us what is the next thing the
Schoeman can expect from his | 0:28:27 | 0:28:31 | |
government? I have enormous
affection for the honourable | 0:28:31 | 0:28:36 | |
gentleman. It doesn't diminish the
respecter of affection it has for | 0:28:36 | 0:28:47 | |
him. It is his party's policy to
remain in the single market and the | 0:28:47 | 0:28:52 | |
common fisheries policy. As a
result, his capacity to criticise | 0:28:52 | 0:28:58 | |
any other party in this house for
seeking to secure additional | 0:28:58 | 0:29:03 | |
opportunities for fishermen in
Scotland and elsewhere is undermined | 0:29:03 | 0:29:05 | |
by the fact he doesn't believe in
giving those opportunities to | 0:29:05 | 0:29:09 | |
anyone. I thank the Secretary of
State for his statement but also | 0:29:09 | 0:29:17 | |
he'll remember his visit to New. I
hate to prolong the point but will | 0:29:17 | 0:29:30 | |
the Secretary of State categorically
confirm that in 2021 it'll be our | 0:29:30 | 0:29:34 | |
decision who fishes in UK waters
from 2021, that we regain and retain | 0:29:34 | 0:29:43 | |
control, and will he be announcing a
fund to improve and enhance our | 0:29:43 | 0:29:48 | |
vessels, airports and processing
plants to prepare for that date? I | 0:29:48 | 0:29:52 | |
did enjoy my visit, and I'm grateful
for the honourable friend that he | 0:29:52 | 0:29:57 | |
does on behalf of his constituency.
It is the case Article 1 to five in | 0:29:57 | 0:30:02 | |
the draft agreement makes it clear
that we think fishing opportunities | 0:30:02 | 0:30:08 | |
for the period of the implementation
period, and given it ends in 2020, | 0:30:08 | 0:30:14 | |
the December 2020's councils
negotiations are not covered by this | 0:30:14 | 0:30:19 | |
agreement so I can give him the
reassurance he and constituents | 0:30:19 | 0:30:22 | |
seek. Unlike some of those who have
been trying to work themselves into | 0:30:22 | 0:30:29 | |
a lather about this decision, I,
along with the Secretary of State, | 0:30:29 | 0:30:33 | |
did canvas to leave the common
fisheries policy and the EU in | 0:30:33 | 0:30:39 | |
totality but I must say to him I can
remember the promises made when we | 0:30:39 | 0:30:43 | |
visited Aberdeen. Many people will
be alarmed and concerned about this | 0:30:43 | 0:30:47 | |
particular agreement and I'd like to
ask you one thing. He has said that | 0:30:47 | 0:30:55 | |
during the transition period that EU
will act in good faith and not seek | 0:30:55 | 0:30:59 | |
to undermine existing fishing
communities. Given the record to | 0:30:59 | 0:31:07 | |
eight in these negotiations, how can
he be sure that legislation, | 0:31:07 | 0:31:13 | |
directive and rules will not be put
in place which will further | 0:31:13 | 0:31:15 | |
undermine the fishing industry?
First of all my honourable friend | 0:31:15 | 0:31:20 | |
has been a consistent campaigner to
leave the EU and the CFP and the | 0:31:20 | 0:31:28 | |
role he plays as a champion for
those who have argued for that is | 0:31:28 | 0:31:31 | |
exemplary. I sympathise with the
concerns people express about the | 0:31:31 | 0:31:36 | |
past record of governments with
respect to the fishing industry. | 0:31:36 | 0:31:40 | |
What I'd say is that the
opportunities that exist after we | 0:31:40 | 0:31:45 | |
leave our considerable and it is
only one year, December 2019, when | 0:31:45 | 0:31:49 | |
we will rely on that good-faith
provision, with respect to | 0:31:49 | 0:31:54 | |
fisheries. As I mentioned earlier in
response to the questions from | 0:31:54 | 0:31:57 | |
Labour colleagues, if the EU were to
choose to act in a way in that year | 0:31:57 | 0:32:01 | |
that acted against our interests,
the consequences that would follow | 0:32:01 | 0:32:05 | |
for all would not be happy. For
decades, EU crawlers have plundered | 0:32:05 | 0:32:12 | |
our waters, fished in ways that have
caused damage to our marine | 0:32:12 | 0:32:16 | |
environment and it seems to be that
is the situation the Scottish | 0:32:16 | 0:32:20 | |
Government are prepared to accept in
perpetuity. Whilst I am... And, | 0:32:20 | 0:32:27 | |
indeed, we further comments they
don't trust the EU in the year, I'm | 0:32:27 | 0:32:30 | |
afraid I haven't trusted that EU in
its negotiation strategies over the | 0:32:30 | 0:32:35 | |
fisheries policy for a long time.
Can be Secretary of State confirm we | 0:32:35 | 0:32:40 | |
will have greater control not only
of our fisheries but our fishing | 0:32:40 | 0:32:44 | |
processes that have been so damaging
to the Marine environment and a lot | 0:32:44 | 0:32:47 | |
of us would like to see the end of?
Yes, it isn't the case of the | 0:32:47 | 0:32:54 | |
fishing industry benefiting by being
outside the CFP, but the marine | 0:32:54 | 0:32:59 | |
environment benefits. And the point
the Scottish Government who want to | 0:32:59 | 0:33:03 | |
keep us in the CFP, they want to
deny Scottish fishermen 's the | 0:33:03 | 0:33:08 | |
opportunities of leaving the CFP,
and, in that position, their | 0:33:08 | 0:33:14 | |
protestations ring hollow this
afternoon. The paradox of this is | 0:33:14 | 0:33:22 | |
that conservative fishery ministers
have been very successful in the | 0:33:22 | 0:33:26 | |
common fisheries policy in
negotiating more sustainable | 0:33:26 | 0:33:29 | |
catches. In his 25 year environment
plan, he talks about all fish stocks | 0:33:29 | 0:33:37 | |
being recovered to and maintained at
levels that can produce their | 0:33:37 | 0:33:40 | |
maximum yield, which is an exact
replica of the EU's CFP. In that | 0:33:40 | 0:33:48 | |
plan, he neglects to mention the
linked application of the | 0:33:48 | 0:33:52 | |
precautionary principle to fisheries
management. Can he reassure the | 0:33:52 | 0:33:56 | |
house that in the future fisheries
fill there will be no return to the | 0:33:56 | 0:34:01 | |
bad old days of days at sea or
fishing effort? A number of | 0:34:01 | 0:34:08 | |
important points raised in that
question. Yes, previous fishing | 0:34:08 | 0:34:10 | |
ministers in this government,
particular Richard Benning, have | 0:34:10 | 0:34:16 | |
done a lot to improve the CFP and
making a bad situation better. The | 0:34:16 | 0:34:20 | |
second point is she is right that in
the 25 year environment and there is | 0:34:20 | 0:34:25 | |
an commitment to ensuring we follow
the signs in order to ensure we have | 0:34:25 | 0:34:28 | |
the best approach to making sure
fish stocks are healthy and | 0:34:28 | 0:34:32 | |
sustainable in the future. The
broader point about the | 0:34:32 | 0:34:35 | |
precautionary principle, it's clear
during the time we've been in the | 0:34:35 | 0:34:39 | |
EU, there have been a number of
things that have worked against the | 0:34:39 | 0:34:43 | |
informal interests of this country,
the precautionary principle properly | 0:34:43 | 0:34:46 | |
applied can be a very powerful tool
in order to ensure our environment | 0:34:46 | 0:34:52 | |
is protected and enhanced and we
will be saying more about the | 0:34:52 | 0:34:55 | |
environmental principles that have
evolved in our time in the EU and | 0:34:55 | 0:34:59 | |
the means by which we will keep in
line with these principles in due | 0:34:59 | 0:35:05 | |
course. I granted this urgent
question because I was clear in my | 0:35:05 | 0:35:09 | |
mind the matter warranted the
attention of the House of Commons | 0:35:09 | 0:35:12 | |
today. I think the judgment
vindicated by the level of interest | 0:35:12 | 0:35:16 | |
in participating. I am keen to
accommodate the inquisitorial | 0:35:16 | 0:35:20 | |
appetite of the house but that is
now a premium, given there are two | 0:35:20 | 0:35:25 | |
statements to follow, on a degree of
brevity. It is normally demonstrated | 0:35:25 | 0:35:31 | |
by the honourable gentleman the
member for New Forest West but he | 0:35:31 | 0:35:36 | |
has already asked his question. Can
I exhort Connex to follow his | 0:35:36 | 0:35:40 | |
excellent example. I'll keep this
short. As my honourable friend agree | 0:35:40 | 0:35:47 | |
that we owe a debt to our fishing
communities? And that we must not | 0:35:47 | 0:35:52 | |
guaranteed to the EU at the end of
this implementation period any level | 0:35:52 | 0:35:55 | |
of access is in favour of a longer
term trade deal? Yes. Splendid. | 0:35:55 | 0:36:06 | |
Today is Saint Cuthbert's Day so
it's right to celebrate the | 0:36:06 | 0:36:09 | |
wonderful seafood of Northumberland
from kippers to Lindisfarne oysters | 0:36:09 | 0:36:14 | |
injured by my constituents and
exported around the world but should | 0:36:14 | 0:36:17 | |
be coastal communities who depend on
them ever have believed that a Tory | 0:36:17 | 0:36:21 | |
party funded by the city would
provide and prioritise a deal on | 0:36:21 | 0:36:25 | |
fishing as highly as a deal on
finance? It is Saint Cuthbert's day | 0:36:25 | 0:36:34 | |
and Saint Cuthbert was given a gift
of fish in order to sustain him. It | 0:36:34 | 0:36:40 | |
is a day resident for a number of
reasons. Actually, it is a | 0:36:40 | 0:36:46 | |
conservative government that has
been invested in all the steps | 0:36:46 | 0:36:52 | |
required in order to make sure we
can take advantage of the | 0:36:52 | 0:36:56 | |
opportunities when we leave the CFP.
We want to ensure her constituents | 0:36:56 | 0:37:01 | |
and others are protected when their
fishermen are engaged. Jeeves used | 0:37:01 | 0:37:09 | |
to encourage Worcester to eat more
fish. It is good for the brain. | 0:37:09 | 0:37:16 | |
As the British fishing industry has
been hammered over decades with our | 0:37:16 | 0:37:19 | |
membership of the Common Fisheries
Policy, we have now been given a | 0:37:19 | 0:37:23 | |
guarantee we will be leaving towards
the end of the implantation period. | 0:37:23 | 0:37:26 | |
Could he use his good office to
ensure that we find imaginative ways | 0:37:26 | 0:37:30 | |
to get some support to the fishing
industry as we embark into this new | 0:37:30 | 0:37:35 | |
era. Yes, my right honourable friend
is absolutely right. The point was | 0:37:35 | 0:37:39 | |
made very well by the member for St
Ives as well. We will be saying | 0:37:39 | 0:37:44 | |
more, with the publication of a
fisheries White Paper, but | 0:37:44 | 0:37:48 | |
additional steps to prepare for life
after the transition period. When | 0:37:48 | 0:37:54 | |
will we actually know the detail
about the great future he is | 0:37:54 | 0:38:00 | |
referring to, before or after the
29th of March 2019? Before. I share | 0:38:00 | 0:38:09 | |
the disappointment of north-east
fishermen, with a transition deal | 0:38:09 | 0:38:13 | |
that falls short of what they hoped
for. Can the secretary of state | 0:38:13 | 0:38:17 | |
guarantee that the first January
2021 we will leave the Common | 0:38:17 | 0:38:21 | |
Fisheries Policy, take back control
of our waters, set our own fisheries | 0:38:21 | 0:38:26 | |
management policies, and quotas?
Will he looks including that in a | 0:38:26 | 0:38:30 | |
fisheries Bill? Does he share the
concern that I have, and the | 0:38:30 | 0:38:35 | |
Scottish fishermen is federation,
that the SNP Scottish Government | 0:38:35 | 0:38:36 | |
will keep us in the Common Fisheries
Policy in perpetuity, and it would | 0:38:36 | 0:38:41 | |
sell Scotland's fishermen out, in
perpetuity? My honourable friend is | 0:38:41 | 0:38:48 | |
absolutely right in every
particular. It was instructive when | 0:38:48 | 0:38:51 | |
the chief executive of the Scottish
fishermen is federation was | 0:38:51 | 0:38:54 | |
interviewed on the radio, he made it
clear how disappointed he was in the | 0:38:54 | 0:38:57 | |
Scottish Government's determination
to keep us in the Common Fisheries | 0:38:57 | 0:39:03 | |
Policy. Given the assurances that I
and others over the past year were | 0:39:03 | 0:39:06 | |
given right from the Prime Minister
down that we would leave the Common | 0:39:06 | 0:39:09 | |
Fisheries Policy in March 2019, who
actually was negotiating this? And | 0:39:09 | 0:39:16 | |
did they really care about fishing?
It seems to me, and I would like the | 0:39:16 | 0:39:21 | |
Secretary of State to answer this,
did the officials actually argue | 0:39:21 | 0:39:25 | |
that we could be left out right away
and it would be nothing to do with | 0:39:25 | 0:39:28 | |
the implementation period? A very
direct question, absolutely it was | 0:39:28 | 0:39:37 | |
the case. I shan't... Well, we had
an immensely hard-working team of | 0:39:37 | 0:39:44 | |
officials that negotiated incredibly
hard on our behalf. They were in | 0:39:44 | 0:39:47 | |
constant touch with ministers every
step of the way. They encountered | 0:39:47 | 0:39:52 | |
intransigence on the part of the EU,
which was disappointing. I make no | 0:39:52 | 0:39:56 | |
bones about it. One thing that
cannot be faulted is the hard work, | 0:39:56 | 0:40:00 | |
determination, mastery of detail and
determination to get the very best | 0:40:00 | 0:40:02 | |
deal for Britain of the civil
servants, and I will not hear a word | 0:40:02 | 0:40:07 | |
said against them. Going forward,
what confidence or guarantee can you | 0:40:07 | 0:40:18 | |
give that control of our seas will
not be sacrificed on the altar of | 0:40:18 | 0:40:27 | |
Brexit? My honourable friend is
absolutely right to stress that one | 0:40:27 | 0:40:32 | |
of the great prizes of Britain
leaving the European Union is taking | 0:40:32 | 0:40:35 | |
back control of our territorial
waters. That is why we must maintain | 0:40:35 | 0:40:38 | |
our eyes on that great prize at the
end of the process. Mr Speaker, I am | 0:40:38 | 0:40:50 | |
a daughter of a man that was a
member of the Grimsby deep sea | 0:40:50 | 0:40:53 | |
fishing fleet, so I know it is one
of the hardest jobs in the world. It | 0:40:53 | 0:40:56 | |
does not stop me understanding that
the processing side of the industry | 0:40:56 | 0:41:02 | |
is incredibly important to coastal
communities such as Grimsby and | 0:41:02 | 0:41:05 | |
Peterhead. On that basis, will the
Secretary of State guarantee that | 0:41:05 | 0:41:09 | |
the processing side of the fishing
industry will not be sacrificed to | 0:41:09 | 0:41:13 | |
other priorities in trade deal
negotiations? The honourable lady | 0:41:13 | 0:41:20 | |
makes a very good point. I have had
productive talks with | 0:41:20 | 0:41:24 | |
representatives of fish processing
organisations. Absolutely, we | 0:41:24 | 0:41:27 | |
appreciate they have specific
demands in terms of access to other | 0:41:27 | 0:41:30 | |
markets and also for Labour, which
we will do everything possible to | 0:41:30 | 0:41:37 | |
help them achieve. The SNP have
admitted they would hand powers of | 0:41:37 | 0:41:45 | |
fisheries not to Edinburgh or
London, but to Brussels. Can my | 0:41:45 | 0:41:48 | |
right honourable friend assure me
that wouldn't happen? I can give a | 0:41:48 | 0:41:51 | |
guarantee that under no
circumstances would I ever adopt the | 0:41:51 | 0:41:55 | |
craven and abject surrender that the
Scottish Government take towards the | 0:41:55 | 0:42:01 | |
European Union by accepting that the
Common Fisheries Policy should | 0:42:01 | 0:42:03 | |
persist ad infinitum. The future of
the fishing industry as a | 0:42:03 | 0:42:10 | |
politically sensitive issue in Hull,
and Ukip have talked about a fishing | 0:42:10 | 0:42:17 | |
fleet being re-established there.
Wasn't one of the main promises that | 0:42:17 | 0:42:19 | |
we would see our removal... Sorry,
we would retain territorial rights | 0:42:19 | 0:42:26 | |
around fishing from day one. Isn't
that a promise that has been broken | 0:42:26 | 0:42:31 | |
to the people Hull? We will, when
implantation period ends, the | 0:42:31 | 0:42:37 | |
exclusive economic zone that is ours
to police and control will be ours | 0:42:37 | 0:42:40 | |
to police and control. If during
plantation period they can't cut the | 0:42:40 | 0:42:48 | |
quota, what is to stop them
increasing their quota? Having said | 0:42:48 | 0:42:52 | |
that, those that were bitterly
disappointed with this outcome will | 0:42:52 | 0:42:55 | |
take no lectures from those that
never wants to take back control. I | 0:42:55 | 0:43:00 | |
entirely understand my right
honourable friend's position. I | 0:43:00 | 0:43:04 | |
explained a little bit earlier the
good faith provisions and other | 0:43:04 | 0:43:07 | |
guarantees that are there. The
outcome is not what we wanted, but | 0:43:07 | 0:43:11 | |
it is one that affords fishermen
protection during implantation | 0:43:11 | 0:43:13 | |
period. Fishermen in Plymouth feel
utterly betrayed by the decision | 0:43:13 | 0:43:23 | |
announced yesterday. What does this
mean for the reform of the | 0:43:23 | 0:43:29 | |
unworkable discards ban, especially
for mixed fisheries in the | 0:43:29 | 0:43:33 | |
south-west? The discard ban is
necessary in order to ensure we have | 0:43:33 | 0:43:35 | |
responsible management of all
species. We are working on ways that | 0:43:35 | 0:43:44 | |
it is applied in a way that makes
sure that concerns on behalf of his | 0:43:44 | 0:43:52 | |
constituents are addressed. The
fishermen in Cornwall do feel very | 0:43:52 | 0:43:56 | |
disappointed, and in some cases
angry, and yesterday's announcement. | 0:43:56 | 0:43:59 | |
Can I ask, when he is visiting
Devon, if he would come further and | 0:43:59 | 0:44:03 | |
meet with the fishermen of Cornwall
as well? Will he lay out clearly for | 0:44:03 | 0:44:07 | |
the fishermen of Cornwall that the
fermentation period would only | 0:44:07 | 0:44:11 | |
affect one year's quota
negotiations, that the quotas will | 0:44:11 | 0:44:13 | |
be protected during the time, and
that by the end of the transition | 0:44:13 | 0:44:18 | |
period we will be taking back
control of fishing waters. Hits the | 0:44:18 | 0:44:22 | |
nail on the head and I look forward
to meeting him later this year. | 0:44:22 | 0:44:28 | |
In defence of this negotiating
debacle, the secretary of state says | 0:44:32 | 0:44:35 | |
that we always knew that there would
be important legal technical | 0:44:35 | 0:44:39 | |
questions to be resolved. If that is
so, why, less than ten days ago, did | 0:44:39 | 0:44:45 | |
he and Ruth Davidson promise
fishermen across the UK that we | 0:44:45 | 0:44:50 | |
would be leaving the CFP in March
2019? It is the case that there are | 0:44:50 | 0:44:57 | |
important questions that need to be
resolved. The one thing that the SNP | 0:44:57 | 0:45:00 | |
are promising is that we will never
leave the CFP. What is instructive | 0:45:00 | 0:45:10 | |
about the SNP is that in so many of
their questions they talk about Ruth | 0:45:10 | 0:45:13 | |
Davidson. They never talk about a
single fishermen, species, they | 0:45:13 | 0:45:17 | |
never talk about a single community.
They only attacked the leader of the | 0:45:17 | 0:45:22 | |
Scottish Conservatives. Why? They
are feart! | 0:45:22 | 0:45:30 | |
Will he confirm that in the
transition agreement we will | 0:45:31 | 0:45:37 | |
continue to market fish and fish
products seamlessly and frictionless | 0:45:37 | 0:45:41 | |
leak into the EU, and that is his
aim for the time after it ends? We | 0:45:41 | 0:45:48 | |
wanted to have it as friction free
as possible, the trade agreement | 0:45:48 | 0:45:51 | |
with the EU and with other nations.
On Friday, the topic of the day was | 0:45:51 | 0:45:58 | |
let us never negotiate out of fear,
but let us never fear to negotiate. | 0:45:58 | 0:46:02 | |
When we joined the Common Market
effort, he sold the fishing sector | 0:46:02 | 0:46:07 | |
for a bowl of potage. Can he give
the guarantee that they will not and | 0:46:07 | 0:46:15 | |
have not been sold out by a
transitional agreement that leaves | 0:46:15 | 0:46:21 | |
the EU in control of fishing policy?
I appreciate the issues he raises | 0:46:21 | 0:46:26 | |
and I will do everything possible to
address the concerns of fishermen, | 0:46:26 | 0:46:31 | |
and I look forward to working with
him and colleagues across the | 0:46:31 | 0:46:34 | |
political divide in Northern Ireland
to provide that reassurance. My | 0:46:34 | 0:46:39 | |
right honourable friend is
absolutely right to highlight the | 0:46:39 | 0:46:45 | |
prize in agreeing a implimentation
period. How will the UK voice be | 0:46:45 | 0:46:50 | |
heard and respected in the quota
allocation for 2020? In 2020, my | 0:46:50 | 0:46:57 | |
honourable friend will be reassured
to know, I hope, the UK will be | 0:46:57 | 0:47:03 | |
negotiated and as an independent
coastal state. It will be the case, | 0:47:03 | 0:47:08 | |
the negotiations in 2019 will take
place on the basis that we will be | 0:47:08 | 0:47:12 | |
consulted, that our science will be
part of the process by which a great | 0:47:12 | 0:47:15 | |
Enigma code arrangements are
reached, and the good-faith | 0:47:15 | 0:47:18 | |
guarantees that I discussed earlier
will be there in order to safeguard | 0:47:18 | 0:47:21 | |
UK interests for the limited
12-month period. | 0:47:21 | 0:47:24 | |
The quotas for 2020 will now be set
by the European Union with some | 0:47:29 | 0:47:34 | |
consultation from the British
government. Now that the ball has | 0:47:34 | 0:47:37 | |
been handed back to the European
Union, what guarantees, Secretary of | 0:47:37 | 0:47:41 | |
State give to the industry that we
will get the ball back? My | 0:47:41 | 0:47:46 | |
honourable friend again reasserts
the vitally important point, worthy | 0:47:46 | 0:47:52 | |
EU for any reason in 2019 to behave
in a way that were contrary to our | 0:47:52 | 0:47:56 | |
long-term interests, it would also
be contrary to their long-term | 0:47:56 | 0:48:02 | |
interests. I agree that the
opportunities the transition deal | 0:48:02 | 0:48:05 | |
provides... Forgive me, the
opportunities at the transition deal | 0:48:05 | 0:48:09 | |
are critically important and we must
secure them. We have accepted a sub | 0:48:09 | 0:48:14 | |
optimal outcome, but it is only for
an additional 12 months and we must | 0:48:14 | 0:48:17 | |
keep our eyes on the prize. Far from
to use his own words a sea of | 0:48:17 | 0:48:23 | |
opportunity, all this deal does is
underline what the heath, Thatcher | 0:48:23 | 0:48:28 | |
and major governments did when they
preceded this, that the Tories are | 0:48:28 | 0:48:31 | |
happy to throw Scotland's fishing
industry over the side. Isn't it the | 0:48:31 | 0:48:37 | |
time that he and his other Tory
sprats were also discarded? Again, I | 0:48:37 | 0:48:44 | |
have noticed in questions from the
Scottish Nationalists ventures, | 0:48:44 | 0:48:52 | |
there have been more mentions of the
Scottish Tory leader, and more bad | 0:48:52 | 0:48:57 | |
puns, than any references to science
or economic. They will need to do | 0:48:57 | 0:49:00 | |
better than name-calling and joke
making if it is going to be taken | 0:49:00 | 0:49:03 | |
seriously as a defender of the
interests of Scottish fishermen. | 0:49:03 | 0:49:10 | |
Wolf-fish and minute is up and down
this country will be hanging their | 0:49:10 | 0:49:14 | |
heads in shame at this discussion so
far. Ted Heath in the 1970s said | 0:49:14 | 0:49:19 | |
fishermen were expendable. Margaret
Thatcher in the 80s signed up to the | 0:49:19 | 0:49:24 | |
original Common Fisheries Policy.
That consigned fishermen to decades | 0:49:24 | 0:49:27 | |
of mismanagement. John Major signed
up to be revised Common Fisheries | 0:49:27 | 0:49:31 | |
Policy, scrapping vessels and
destroying livelihoods. Given this | 0:49:31 | 0:49:35 | |
continued betrayal, will things be
any different post Brexit? | 0:49:35 | 0:49:44 | |
Absolutely, I have enormous respect
and affection for the honourable | 0:49:44 | 0:49:47 | |
gentleman, who I think is a great
campaigner. Respectfully, I must | 0:49:47 | 0:49:49 | |
point out, I don't doubt his
commitment at all, but the party | 0:49:49 | 0:49:55 | |
platform on which he stands would
keep imprisoned in the Common | 0:49:55 | 0:49:58 | |
Fisheries Policy, as opposed to the
opportunities outside, which we and | 0:49:58 | 0:50:02 | |
our friends in the Democratic
Unionist Party support. I think I | 0:50:02 | 0:50:08 | |
make at five different Conservative
Scottish MPs that asked for the same | 0:50:08 | 0:50:11 | |
promise from the Secretary of State.
He has been so obsessed with this | 0:50:11 | 0:50:19 | |
#SNP line that he hasn't given the
guarantee. Is not the case that | 0:50:19 | 0:50:24 | |
Scotland could have devolved power
over immigration if they left the | 0:50:24 | 0:50:28 | |
European Union. Same Secretary of
State promised that we would | 0:50:28 | 0:50:30 | |
definitely leave the Common
Fisheries Policy on March 20 19. | 0:50:30 | 0:50:35 | |
That promise is worthless. Isn't
that the case that any promise he | 0:50:35 | 0:50:39 | |
makes to the people of Scotland in
future will be just as worthless as | 0:50:39 | 0:50:42 | |
those made in the past? I think it
is the case that the promise that | 0:50:42 | 0:50:47 | |
the Scottish National Party have
made to keep us on the Common | 0:50:47 | 0:50:49 | |
Fisheries Policy and the European
union was come pensively rejected at | 0:50:49 | 0:50:56 | |
the ballot box. There is a simple
choice, that Scotland faces. Does it | 0:50:56 | 0:51:01 | |
remain within the European Union or
the Common Fisheries Policy under | 0:51:01 | 0:51:05 | |
the SNP, or liberated if this
Government has its way? On that | 0:51:05 | 0:51:09 | |
choice, so much hangs, including the
future of the SNP. Again, just goes | 0:51:09 | 0:51:15 | |
to show that at any negotiating
table you want some of there that | 0:51:15 | 0:51:18 | |
will stand up for the issues that
matter to you, the Brexit or the | 0:51:18 | 0:51:27 | |
CFP, and if Scotland's fishing
community is expendable to the | 0:51:27 | 0:51:30 | |
government. At what stage did the
secretary of state know that | 0:51:30 | 0:51:33 | |
fisheries were going to be a
bargaining chip, and what did the | 0:51:33 | 0:51:36 | |
Government secure in return? | 0:51:36 | 0:51:41 | |
Both sides made it clear fishery
would have to be handled separately | 0:51:41 | 0:51:46 | |
from the other issues in this
implementation period and it was | 0:51:46 | 0:51:48 | |
always clear we would have to have
specific arrangements and one of the | 0:51:48 | 0:51:51 | |
things that is different about
fisheries is even before the | 0:51:51 | 0:51:55 | |
implementation period ends we will
operate independently outside the | 0:51:55 | 0:51:58 | |
constraints of the EU. It is also
the case that in having that | 0:51:58 | 0:52:04 | |
capacity in 2020, we are in a
position to secure the larger prize, | 0:52:04 | 0:52:11 | |
which the SNP rejects. Right...
Thank you, Mr Speaker. We know Heath | 0:52:11 | 0:52:25 | |
said fishermen are expendable and
Thatcher got us into the CFP. A | 0:52:25 | 0:52:34 | |
quote from the head of the Danish
fishermen's association. He said, | 0:52:34 | 0:52:40 | |
Britain has never ever challenged
the quotas. We have in every | 0:52:40 | 0:52:46 | |
negotiations. It doesn't matter
whether we are in the CFP not, the | 0:52:46 | 0:52:51 | |
UK Government cannot be trusted.
Does he agree? I enjoyed hearing the | 0:52:51 | 0:52:56 | |
same quotes in the honourable
gentleman's questions a few minutes | 0:52:56 | 0:53:02 | |
ago. Getting repeats from the SNP is
quite something. But in particular | 0:53:02 | 0:53:10 | |
the point in his question he
betrayed a misunderstanding of the | 0:53:10 | 0:53:14 | |
relative stability which underpins
the quotas. I've suggested over the | 0:53:14 | 0:53:21 | |
years that only when all the fishing
waters of Europe are returned to | 0:53:21 | 0:53:24 | |
their own countries will the fish
industries be saved and the UK must | 0:53:24 | 0:53:29 | |
lead the way in that process. Will
the government publicly urged the | 0:53:29 | 0:53:33 | |
abolition of the CFP which has been
a disaster? My admiration for the | 0:53:33 | 0:53:42 | |
honourable gentleman knows no bounds
and the CFP has been bad not the | 0:53:42 | 0:53:45 | |
Britain but for fishing across the
EU. My only hope is that he will | 0:53:45 | 0:53:50 | |
have an opportunity not just to see
our shared ambition be fulfilled but | 0:53:50 | 0:53:58 | |
I'm hoping he will be able to
persuade European colleagues to | 0:53:58 | 0:54:01 | |
reform their own governments in a
way which is genuinely liberating. | 0:54:01 | 0:54:07 | |
Looking at the faces on the Scottish
Tories opposite, never before has | 0:54:07 | 0:54:13 | |
done up like a keeper been more
appropriate. The UK Government | 0:54:13 | 0:54:20 | |
betrays Scottish fishing communities
once again. Could the Secretary of | 0:54:20 | 0:54:24 | |
State explain to the bewildered
constituents of my constituency will | 0:54:24 | 0:54:31 | |
why he's signed them up as a
disastrous -- why he signed them up | 0:54:31 | 0:54:36 | |
to something he described as
disastrous on worse conditions than | 0:54:36 | 0:54:41 | |
they currently experience now? Can
he explain why he has done that? | 0:54:41 | 0:54:48 | |
Listening once again to another
Scottish National Party 's spokesman | 0:54:48 | 0:54:51 | |
denying the reality of their
adherence to the Common fisheries | 0:54:51 | 0:54:55 | |
policy, and also attempting to cover
it up with a weak pun I felt what I | 0:54:55 | 0:54:59 | |
was witnessing was yet another
audition for someone to appear on | 0:54:59 | 0:55:01 | |
Alex Salmond's arty .com talk show,
a combination of bad taste and poor | 0:55:01 | 0:55:08 | |
humour exhibited by so many on those
benches. Order. Statement, the | 0:55:08 | 0:55:16 | |
leader of the house. Andrea Letson.
-- Andrea Letson. I should like to | 0:55:16 | 0:55:30 | |
make a very short statement
regarding business for tomorrow. The | 0:55:30 | 0:55:34 | |
business for tomorrow will now be
consideration of a business of the | 0:55:34 | 0:55:36 | |
house motion followed by proceedings
on the Northern Ireland regional | 0:55:36 | 0:55:40 | |
rates and energy Bill. The house
will then be asked to consider a | 0:55:40 | 0:55:45 | |
further business of the house motion
before moving on to proceedings on | 0:55:45 | 0:55:50 | |
the Northern Ireland assembly
members pay bill. Thursday's | 0:55:50 | 0:55:54 | |
business will remain as previously
announced, a general debate on the | 0:55:54 | 0:55:57 | |
economy and I will make my usual
statement announcing further | 0:55:57 | 0:56:00 | |
business on Thursday.
I concur. I am grateful to the | 0:56:00 | 0:56:11 | |
shadow leader. That is probably the
shortest statement and response in | 0:56:11 | 0:56:19 | |
recent history of the house. Order,
statement, the Minister for small | 0:56:19 | 0:56:28 | |
business consumers and corporate
responsibility. Andrew Griffiths! | 0:56:28 | 0:56:35 | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, I
am pleased to announce two | 0:56:35 | 0:56:42 | |
honourable members and Right
Honourable members the government | 0:56:42 | 0:56:45 | |
has today published a consultation
on corporate governance and | 0:56:45 | 0:56:48 | |
insolvency. Copies of the
consultation have been placed in the | 0:56:48 | 0:56:52 | |
libraries of the house. The UK is
recognised as having a leading | 0:56:52 | 0:57:00 | |
international reputation for
corporate governance. It gives us an | 0:57:00 | 0:57:03 | |
international competitive advantage
and is an important factor in making | 0:57:03 | 0:57:07 | |
the UK the best place in the world
in which to invest and do business. | 0:57:07 | 0:57:11 | |
The government is determined to
ensure our corporate governance | 0:57:11 | 0:57:16 | |
regime remains the envy of the
world. Large corporate failures | 0:57:16 | 0:57:21 | |
happen rarely but when they do their
affect on stakeholders, such as | 0:57:21 | 0:57:26 | |
employees and smaller suppliers, can
be very damaging. In those | 0:57:26 | 0:57:30 | |
situations, it is important to
ensure those in charge of the | 0:57:30 | 0:57:34 | |
company acted properly and fully
discharge their responsibilities. | 0:57:34 | 0:57:39 | |
The government is determined to
ensure our corporate governance | 0:57:39 | 0:57:43 | |
framework clarifies those
responsibilities, protect the | 0:57:43 | 0:57:46 | |
economy and enhances public
confidence while continuing to | 0:57:46 | 0:57:49 | |
foster conditions for business to
thrive. Last year we announced a | 0:57:49 | 0:57:53 | |
number of reforms to strengthen the
corporate governance framework in | 0:57:53 | 0:57:56 | |
relation to executive pay, the voice
of employees and wider stakeholders | 0:57:56 | 0:58:02 | |
in the boardroom and corporate
governance in large, privately held | 0:58:02 | 0:58:06 | |
businesses. These are now being
delivered and all of them will | 0:58:06 | 0:58:10 | |
contribute to more robust and well
founded decision-making in our large | 0:58:10 | 0:58:14 | |
companies. We are determined Mr
Speaker to learn the lesson from | 0:58:14 | 0:58:17 | |
corporate failures such as Karelian
and we believe we can do more to | 0:58:17 | 0:58:22 | |
strengthen the corporate governance
framework as it implies -- applies | 0:58:22 | 0:58:29 | |
in corporations. We want to reduce
the risk of companies failing. And | 0:58:29 | 0:58:35 | |
to strengthen the responsibilities
of directors of firms when they are | 0:58:35 | 0:58:40 | |
in or approaching insolvency. The
consultation will focus on green | 0:58:40 | 0:58:44 | |
measures. Number one, considerable
public concern arises when owners of | 0:58:44 | 0:58:48 | |
a distressed business, including
within a group of companies, sell on | 0:58:48 | 0:58:52 | |
that business without proper regard
for its future prospects or the | 0:58:52 | 0:58:57 | |
interests of its creditors or
employees. We propose to require | 0:58:57 | 0:59:01 | |
directors, including directors of
holding companies in respect of | 0:59:01 | 0:59:05 | |
sales of subsidiaries, to have a
greater regard to any future | 0:59:05 | 0:59:09 | |
consequences of the sale of an
insolvent or near insolvent company | 0:59:09 | 0:59:13 | |
for which they are responsible. In
doing so we will ensure we do not | 0:59:13 | 0:59:17 | |
put barriers in the way of credible
business rescue efforts. We don't | 0:59:17 | 0:59:22 | |
want to make it impossible to rescue
businesses in distress. Secondly, | 0:59:22 | 0:59:27 | |
considerable public concern has been
raised where a company in financial | 0:59:27 | 0:59:32 | |
difficulty has been rescued by new
investment only to find when it | 0:59:32 | 0:59:37 | |
subsequently fails that the new
investors have set up a series of | 0:59:37 | 0:59:42 | |
complex financial schemes to protect
their investment or minimise their | 0:59:42 | 0:59:45 | |
losses at the expense of other
creditors. We will give insolvency | 0:59:45 | 0:59:53 | |
practitioners the additional
necessary powers to claw back for | 0:59:53 | 0:59:56 | |
the benefit of creditors money which
has been siphoned off through | 0:59:56 | 1:00:00 | |
complex financing arrangements.
Third, concerns have been raised | 1:00:00 | 1:00:05 | |
including by a number of Honourable
members about the difficulties | 1:00:05 | 1:00:09 | |
raised when a company has been
dissolved but is then found to have | 1:00:09 | 1:00:13 | |
outstanding debts or allegations of
director misconduct. Often these | 1:00:13 | 1:00:18 | |
devolved companies will reappear. If
UNIX like in a slightly different | 1:00:18 | 1:00:23 | |
form with a slightly differently and
start operating again. At present, | 1:00:23 | 1:00:28 | |
the insolvency service doesn't have
the powers necessary to investigate | 1:00:28 | 1:00:31 | |
these cases. We are determined they
will. These measures will complement | 1:00:31 | 1:00:37 | |
those published yesterday by the
Department for Work and Pensions in | 1:00:37 | 1:00:40 | |
a White Paper entitled Protecting
Defined Benefit Pension Schemes, | 1:00:40 | 1:00:45 | |
which puts forward stronger powers
for the pensions regulator to | 1:00:45 | 1:00:48 | |
prevent and punish those
deliberately endangering a pension | 1:00:48 | 1:00:53 | |
scheme. Corporate failures like
Carillion have raised concerns about | 1:00:53 | 1:00:56 | |
other aspects of corporate
governance framework. I don't wish | 1:00:56 | 1:01:01 | |
to anticipate the current
investigations leading up to the | 1:01:01 | 1:01:03 | |
failure of Carillion but I intend to
use this consultation to seek views | 1:01:03 | 1:01:08 | |
on a number of areas where it may be
that we can do more to strengthen | 1:01:08 | 1:01:13 | |
the rules within which UK companies
operate. These are areas including | 1:01:13 | 1:01:16 | |
whether steps should be taken to
improve governance, accountability | 1:01:16 | 1:01:22 | |
and internal controls within complex
company group structures, whether | 1:01:22 | 1:01:27 | |
there are further opportunities to
strengthen the role of shareholders | 1:01:27 | 1:01:30 | |
in stewarding the companies in which
they have investments, and third | 1:01:30 | 1:01:34 | |
whilst the payment of dividends
should remain for the directors to | 1:01:34 | 1:01:39 | |
decide, having regard to their
obligations and guidance, whether | 1:01:39 | 1:01:43 | |
legal and technical framework within
which these decisions are made could | 1:01:43 | 1:01:47 | |
be improved and made more
transparent and fair. Whether | 1:01:47 | 1:01:51 | |
decommissioning and use of
professional advice by directors is | 1:01:51 | 1:01:54 | |
done so without proper awareness of
director's duties. And how the | 1:01:54 | 1:02:00 | |
supply chain and other creditors can
be better protected in the event of | 1:02:00 | 1:02:04 | |
major insolvency whilst preserving
interests of shareholders. The | 1:02:04 | 1:02:07 | |
reforms we are proposing will help
prevent corporate failure, | 1:02:07 | 1:02:12 | |
strengthen the UK's business
environment, contributing to the | 1:02:12 | 1:02:14 | |
success of our industrial strategy
and cement our reputation as one of | 1:02:14 | 1:02:19 | |
the best places to work, invest, and
do business. Mr Speaker, I commend | 1:02:19 | 1:02:25 | |
the statement to the house. Order.
Can I gently point out that members | 1:02:25 | 1:02:33 | |
who were not present for the
statement can't come into the | 1:02:33 | 1:02:37 | |
chamber and expect to be called to
ask a question. That is not on, | 1:02:37 | 1:02:42 | |
sorry. I thank the Minister for his
statement and for making it so on | 1:02:42 | 1:02:49 | |
time, as he was. There are to make
substantive proposals on claw back | 1:02:49 | 1:02:54 | |
and disqualification of directors.
That is revision already in | 1:02:54 | 1:02:58 | |
insolvency law for claw back of
assets for example assets sold at | 1:02:58 | 1:03:03 | |
undervalue. There is also provision
in company law for disqualification | 1:03:03 | 1:03:08 | |
of directors due to incompetence or
recklessness. There are proposals | 1:03:08 | 1:03:11 | |
set out by the Minister on claw back
are extremely unclear so can the | 1:03:11 | 1:03:16 | |
minister explain how these
provisions added to existing rights | 1:03:16 | 1:03:19 | |
rather than repeat them? Second,
there are a number of much vague | 1:03:19 | 1:03:24 | |
promises, what do these mean given
the insolvency law powers? How will | 1:03:24 | 1:03:32 | |
these new powers stop reckless
behaviour? The consideration of | 1:03:32 | 1:03:38 | |
legal and technical framework within
which decisions are made on payment | 1:03:38 | 1:03:42 | |
of dividends and how it could be
improved and made more transparent, | 1:03:42 | 1:03:45 | |
what does this mean? How can they
been made more transparent and how | 1:03:45 | 1:03:50 | |
would that protect against the greed
and excessive payments of dividends, | 1:03:50 | 1:03:54 | |
as we saw with Carillion?
Strengthening the role and | 1:03:54 | 1:03:58 | |
responsibility of shareholders in
stewarding the companies in which | 1:03:58 | 1:04:02 | |
they have investment. What does this
even mean? Frankly, it is | 1:04:02 | 1:04:08 | |
meaningless platitude. Third, the
government appears to be consulting | 1:04:08 | 1:04:12 | |
rather than acting. Does the
government agree it is time for | 1:04:12 | 1:04:17 | |
action not consultation? They are
consulting on the Taylor review | 1:04:17 | 1:04:20 | |
which in itself was a consultation.
What good are these consultations to | 1:04:20 | 1:04:24 | |
people currently working in
companies providing public services | 1:04:24 | 1:04:28 | |
at risk of collapse? Fourth, the
government isn't known for being | 1:04:28 | 1:04:32 | |
proactive. Rather, it is always
mopping up after the event. None of | 1:04:32 | 1:04:36 | |
these problems are new. Companies
going insolvent and leaving pension | 1:04:36 | 1:04:42 | |
deficit or asset stripping are not
novel, look at the case of BHS. | 1:04:42 | 1:04:47 | |
These are problems the government
should have already anticipated and | 1:04:47 | 1:04:50 | |
I ask the Minister why it's taken
the government until now to begin to | 1:04:50 | 1:04:53 | |
act and only make tentative steps?
Fifth, we must have a bolder and | 1:04:53 | 1:04:59 | |
more imaginative approach to
corporate governance. Large | 1:04:59 | 1:05:03 | |
companies are not the toys of
directors and shareholders, they | 1:05:03 | 1:05:06 | |
don't exist merely to make a small
group of people extremely wealthy. | 1:05:06 | 1:05:10 | |
They are the product of the hard
work and effort of their workforce | 1:05:10 | 1:05:14 | |
and suppliers. They provide services
which the public use. Is at the | 1:05:14 | 1:05:21 | |
heart of shareholder decisions so
how do today's Triposo safeguard the | 1:05:21 | 1:05:25 | |
long-term interests of companies for
the workforce and for the public | 1:05:25 | 1:05:30 | |
good? Six, has the government made
any assessment of the viability of | 1:05:30 | 1:05:35 | |
inter-server and any companies with
public sector contracts? What steps | 1:05:35 | 1:05:38 | |
is the government taking to ensure
these companies don't collapse? Will | 1:05:38 | 1:05:41 | |
the government Institute Project
bank accounts? Mandate and enforce | 1:05:41 | 1:05:49 | |
payment of public sector contract is
within 30 days and set up a new | 1:05:49 | 1:05:52 | |
model which allows the government to
step in when construction companies | 1:05:52 | 1:05:56 | |
collapse has met all of which Labour
has called on the government to do. | 1:05:56 | 1:06:02 | |
Lastly, Mr Speaker, how would any of
these proposals meaningfully have | 1:06:02 | 1:06:07 | |
helped the workers, pensioners and
suppliers of Carillion? The amount | 1:06:07 | 1:06:10 | |
paid in dividends at ten two was the
same as the pensions deficit over | 1:06:10 | 1:06:14 | |
the same period. Has the government
done any assessment of what more the | 1:06:14 | 1:06:20 | |
workers, pensioners and suppliers
would have received under these new | 1:06:20 | 1:06:22 | |
plans. If not, why not? A little bit
like a machine gun, those questions | 1:06:22 | 1:06:33 | |
came thick and fast and I thank the
honourable lady for them. I am | 1:06:33 | 1:06:39 | |
somewhat surprised, Mr Speaker. Went
two went into insolvency, the | 1:06:39 | 1:06:44 | |
honourable lady at a party demanded
we learn the lessons from the | 1:06:44 | 1:06:47 | |
Carillion failure. We, today, just a
few weeks later, have come forward | 1:06:47 | 1:06:54 | |
with proposals to prevent something
similar from happening and she | 1:06:54 | 1:06:58 | |
criticises us for failure. The
collie, her frontbencher who shadows | 1:06:58 | 1:07:06 | |
me, criticised us for yet another
consultation in their press freeze | 1:07:06 | 1:07:11 | |
and then says Labour has launched
our own consultation into corporate | 1:07:11 | 1:07:16 | |
review. | 1:07:16 | 1:07:21 | |
Mr Speaker, the measures here will
make a massive difference to the | 1:07:21 | 1:07:30 | |
prospects and the way companies are
regulated to ensure a more robust | 1:07:30 | 1:07:35 | |
and accountable regime in the
boardroom. Yesterday, the Department | 1:07:35 | 1:07:43 | |
for Work and Pensions brought
through a White Paper that | 1:07:43 | 1:07:45 | |
introduces a huge number of extra
regulations and gives powers to the | 1:07:45 | 1:07:51 | |
pension regulator to impose punitive
fines, several faience, criminal | 1:07:51 | 1:07:56 | |
sanctions, director
disqualification. She says, what | 1:07:56 | 1:08:01 | |
have we been doing over the period
of time we have been in office? Of | 1:08:01 | 1:08:05 | |
course, we have brought through pay
ratio reporting, a new register of | 1:08:05 | 1:08:12 | |
companies, we enforce shareholder
opposition, strengthening the voice | 1:08:12 | 1:08:18 | |
of the employees and representatives
in the boardroom. She talks about | 1:08:18 | 1:08:29 | |
Interserve. It would be
inappropriate to give a case-by-case | 1:08:29 | 1:08:34 | |
probity on businesses, because it
could impact on their share price, | 1:08:34 | 1:08:38 | |
and I'm sure somebody of her would
understand that. She talks about | 1:08:38 | 1:08:43 | |
Project bank accounts. She will be
well aware that, in January, the | 1:08:43 | 1:08:48 | |
consultation the Government have
launched in relation to Project bank | 1:08:48 | 1:08:53 | |
accounts closed, and we will be
coming forward with our proposals in | 1:08:53 | 1:08:56 | |
relation to that consultation in the
coming weeks. She talks about | 1:08:56 | 1:09:02 | |
payment within the public sector. I
can inform her that the special | 1:09:02 | 1:09:06 | |
manager in relation to PwC has
already agreed that for companies | 1:09:06 | 1:09:11 | |
that are providing services for
Carillion, there will be paid in 30 | 1:09:11 | 1:09:18 | |
days. It is a requirement for all
contractors that accept government | 1:09:18 | 1:09:22 | |
contracts to pay their supply chain
within 30 days. We will be coming | 1:09:22 | 1:09:25 | |
forward with further proposals about
how we can improve that and make it | 1:09:25 | 1:09:29 | |
robust. She talks about the
disqualification. Of course, | 1:09:29 | 1:09:34 | |
directors can be disqualified for up
to 15 years. That prevents them from | 1:09:34 | 1:09:39 | |
acting as a director, taking part
directly or indirectly, anyone | 1:09:39 | 1:09:46 | |
contravening it is altercation is
committing a criminal offence. These | 1:09:46 | 1:09:50 | |
are real, punitive powers. She talks
about dividends. Of course, there is | 1:09:50 | 1:09:54 | |
nothing wrong, Mr Speaker, in
healthy companies paying dividends. | 1:09:54 | 1:09:59 | |
In fact, many of our pension schemes
rely on the profits that are paid | 1:09:59 | 1:10:05 | |
from dividends. She talks about
dividends as if they are a dirty | 1:10:05 | 1:10:08 | |
word. Actually, they are something
and a healthy business to be | 1:10:08 | 1:10:10 | |
applauded. Mr Speaker, the house can
be reassured that this is just the | 1:10:10 | 1:10:15 | |
next step in a robust, detailed, for
some review of our corporate | 1:10:15 | 1:10:23 | |
government regime, to make sure that
we protect the taxpayer, we protect | 1:10:23 | 1:10:27 | |
pensioners and we protect the
workers in all of those companies | 1:10:27 | 1:10:32 | |
that do such a good job. Thank you.
What is his ambition for when his | 1:10:32 | 1:10:39 | |
excellent proposals will actually be
implemented? As the honourable | 1:10:39 | 1:10:45 | |
gentleman will know, we have not
hang about in relation to | 1:10:45 | 1:10:48 | |
improvements within the corporate
governance structure. We will | 1:10:48 | 1:10:55 | |
shortly be laying a further CFP,
which will enhance even further the | 1:10:55 | 1:11:01 | |
measures we have brought in. The
consultation will take place within | 1:11:01 | 1:11:06 | |
the normal rules of a consultation
and we hope to bring forward the | 1:11:06 | 1:11:11 | |
proposals as a matter of urgency.
Can I thank the Minister for | 1:11:11 | 1:11:15 | |
advanced sight of his statement. In
terms of engagement, will the | 1:11:15 | 1:11:19 | |
Government consider proposals to
force chief executives and company | 1:11:19 | 1:11:23 | |
directors to engage directly with
small-business owners or groups | 1:11:23 | 1:11:26 | |
affected individuals? In the recent
instances of the global | 1:11:26 | 1:11:31 | |
restructuring group and Royal Bank
of Scotland branch closures, there | 1:11:31 | 1:11:34 | |
has been a refusal on the part of
directors to meet those. Affected As | 1:11:34 | 1:11:39 | |
my honourable friend from Glasgow
North pointed out, a lot of the | 1:11:39 | 1:11:42 | |
problems which this consultation
seeks to address could have been | 1:11:42 | 1:11:44 | |
avoided simply through engagement
with those in charge. With costs | 1:11:44 | 1:11:54 | |
preventing individuals from pursuing
legal options after being affected | 1:11:54 | 1:11:59 | |
by insolvency, will the government
back a strategy look of ways of | 1:11:59 | 1:12:01 | |
ensuring that legal recourse is
available to those that will already | 1:12:01 | 1:12:04 | |
be in financial difficulties as a
result of insolvency? In terms of | 1:12:04 | 1:12:11 | |
contracts and pensions protections,
small businesses should not be the | 1:12:11 | 1:12:13 | |
ones to suffer when a failed large
company goes bust, and it should not | 1:12:13 | 1:12:17 | |
only be high-profile cases where the
Government steps in to protect | 1:12:17 | 1:12:22 | |
pensions. What measures will this
strategy take to ensure that small | 1:12:22 | 1:12:27 | |
and medium-sized enterprises are
protected when contract or payments | 1:12:27 | 1:12:33 | |
are halted due to large companies
collapsing, and that any protection | 1:12:33 | 1:12:38 | |
for creditors is mirrored by
protection for workers and pension | 1:12:38 | 1:12:42 | |
holders? Finally, these proposals
are aimed at improving the range of | 1:12:42 | 1:12:46 | |
options available following a
company becoming insolvent. However, | 1:12:46 | 1:12:50 | |
a proactive approach can help
prevent this happening in the first | 1:12:50 | 1:12:52 | |
place. Would he agree that one way
to ensure this would be for | 1:12:52 | 1:12:58 | |
organisations to take profit warning
seriously, and not continue to hand | 1:12:58 | 1:13:02 | |
out contracts to firms that issue
them? I thank the honourable | 1:13:02 | 1:13:08 | |
gentleman for those detailed and
very, very important questions. He | 1:13:08 | 1:13:13 | |
asks a number of questions,
particularly in relation to small | 1:13:13 | 1:13:17 | |
businesses. As the Small Business
Minister, I take those questions | 1:13:17 | 1:13:19 | |
extremely seriously. What we see is
not just large corporate collapses | 1:13:19 | 1:13:24 | |
that affect small businesses. We saw
that in the case of Carillion, | 1:13:24 | 1:13:29 | |
thousands of small businesses in the
supply chain. Actually, the collapse | 1:13:29 | 1:13:35 | |
of small business affecting other
small businesses. I think we will | 1:13:35 | 1:13:37 | |
all have seen in our own
constituencies cases of small | 1:13:37 | 1:13:42 | |
businesses who lose money because of
a Phoenix business, we have seen | 1:13:42 | 1:13:45 | |
them before, they change their name,
they go into liquidation, we see | 1:13:45 | 1:13:49 | |
them reappearing again, the same
people, selling the same products, | 1:13:49 | 1:13:53 | |
fleecing people, time and time
again. The abilities we are giving | 1:13:53 | 1:13:56 | |
the solvency services, investigating
companies that have already been | 1:13:56 | 1:14:05 | |
dissolved, will go a long way to
sending a very, very clear message | 1:14:05 | 1:14:10 | |
to directors that think they can get
away with it in that way and fleece | 1:14:10 | 1:14:14 | |
small businesses, that the
insolvency service will come and get | 1:14:14 | 1:14:16 | |
them. He talks about pensions. I
think it is very, very important | 1:14:16 | 1:14:20 | |
that directors very clearly
understand, through this white paper | 1:14:20 | 1:14:23 | |
and through this consultation, and
through the DWP White Paper, that | 1:14:23 | 1:14:28 | |
there are consequences if you fleece
your pension fund. That those are | 1:14:28 | 1:14:32 | |
not only finds, those are not only
penalties, but you will spend time | 1:14:32 | 1:14:36 | |
in prison if you have been found to
be fleecing your pension fund in a | 1:14:36 | 1:14:40 | |
way that is unacceptable. Finally,
he talks about the need for us to | 1:14:40 | 1:14:52 | |
ensure ethical business in relation
to the way small businesses are | 1:14:52 | 1:14:54 | |
treated. We saw in the spring
statement just last week the | 1:14:54 | 1:15:02 | |
Chancellor, a clear recognition,
clear understanding, that small | 1:15:02 | 1:15:05 | |
businesses are being fleeced,
particularly in relation to late | 1:15:05 | 1:15:07 | |
payments. The Chancellor said that
he would consult on how we could end | 1:15:07 | 1:15:11 | |
the scourge of late payments. If we
could do that, not only would we see | 1:15:11 | 1:15:18 | |
£14 billion taken from the pockets
of big businesses and put into the | 1:15:18 | 1:15:23 | |
pockets of small business, but we
could also see that when | 1:15:23 | 1:15:26 | |
insolvencies do happen, like
Carillion, it is not 128 days of | 1:15:26 | 1:15:31 | |
payments that are in the bank
accounts that go bust, it is only | 1:15:31 | 1:15:36 | |
30. Can I welcome this announcement?
As a former business owner myself, I | 1:15:36 | 1:15:44 | |
have seen the impact on small
businesses and large companies | 1:15:44 | 1:15:50 | |
become insolvent. Does the Minister
agree with me that we need to | 1:15:50 | 1:15:54 | |
protect small businesses and those
in the supply chain? I agree with | 1:15:54 | 1:15:59 | |
the honourable gentleman. That is
why we are specifically consulting | 1:15:59 | 1:16:04 | |
in this document about what more we
can do to protect small businesses. | 1:16:04 | 1:16:11 | |
We have seen lots these failures
were clever directors, with clever | 1:16:11 | 1:16:17 | |
advisers, clever lawyers, cleverest
tax accountants, put in place a | 1:16:17 | 1:16:21 | |
regime that allows them to walk away
scot-free, while hard-working | 1:16:21 | 1:16:23 | |
businessmen and women in our
constituencies pay the price. This | 1:16:23 | 1:16:29 | |
consultation looks at how we can put
an end to that and be on the side of | 1:16:29 | 1:16:35 | |
the small guy. Will the Minister
consider extending the consultation | 1:16:35 | 1:16:42 | |
to other non-governmental contract,
just so it is a new way of doing | 1:16:42 | 1:16:48 | |
business? Secondly, what will he do
to protect apprentices from court in | 1:16:48 | 1:16:54 | |
that subcontracting chain, losing
the apprenticeship with an SME, the | 1:16:54 | 1:17:01 | |
lifeblood of the economy? Two
important questions. As a customer, | 1:17:01 | 1:17:07 | |
the Government has a role to play.
We give billions of pounds of | 1:17:07 | 1:17:13 | |
contracts, and we have the power in
our own hands to ensure that it is | 1:17:13 | 1:17:16 | |
treated properly. We will be coming
forward in the very near future with | 1:17:16 | 1:17:22 | |
a clearer set of principles and
clearer set of tools in which we | 1:17:22 | 1:17:25 | |
will ensure that the supply chain is
treated properly, paid fairly and | 1:17:25 | 1:17:31 | |
those 30-day terms is what we expect
of our suppliers. In relation to | 1:17:31 | 1:17:37 | |
apprentices, I agree with her that,
unfortunately, in the case of | 1:17:37 | 1:17:42 | |
business collapse, and we accept
that businesses will always go bust, | 1:17:42 | 1:17:46 | |
it is a case of the realities of the
way that they work... There were | 1:17:46 | 1:17:54 | |
enough in the 90s! The way in which
the business environment works. The | 1:17:54 | 1:18:00 | |
employees are at the heart of this
consultation and the heart of the | 1:18:00 | 1:18:03 | |
decisions that we make. Can I
congratulate the Minister on the | 1:18:03 | 1:18:11 | |
statement and also on launching the
much-needed consultation. As a | 1:18:11 | 1:18:13 | |
member of the select committee that
is requiring the route inquiring | 1:18:13 | 1:18:17 | |
into the collapse of -- that is
inquiring into the collapse of | 1:18:17 | 1:18:25 | |
Carillion, the company did not even
give the insolvency service the | 1:18:25 | 1:18:30 | |
names of all of the parts of the
group. Should steps be taken to | 1:18:30 | 1:18:36 | |
improve governance and
accountability in groups of | 1:18:36 | 1:18:38 | |
companies with complex structures. I
think the honourable gentleman has | 1:18:38 | 1:18:46 | |
hit the nail on the head. I commend
the work that his select committee | 1:18:46 | 1:18:50 | |
has been doing in shining a light
into the realities of the weight | 1:18:50 | 1:18:55 | |
Carillion operated. In the very
early days of the Carillion | 1:18:55 | 1:19:01 | |
collapse, when the Government
welcome to protect vital services | 1:19:01 | 1:19:03 | |
that were being delivered and
protect the 18,500 people employed | 1:19:03 | 1:19:07 | |
by them, it became very clear this
was a hellishly complicated | 1:19:07 | 1:19:10 | |
business, with a hellishly
overcomplicated structure. It is | 1:19:10 | 1:19:18 | |
still a difficult job in trying to
untangle that web that we saw in the | 1:19:18 | 1:19:26 | |
Carillion business structure. If it
is, so many weeks on, difficult for | 1:19:26 | 1:19:29 | |
the insolvency agency to untangle
this business, how much more | 1:19:29 | 1:19:34 | |
difficult must it have been to run
it? It is very clear that we need | 1:19:34 | 1:19:39 | |
clear, accountable business
structures in our businesses today. | 1:19:39 | 1:19:43 | |
Can I welcome ace sensible set of
proposals, particularly on value | 1:19:45 | 1:19:48 | |
extraction through complex
arrangement. Can I ask the minister | 1:19:48 | 1:19:52 | |
what he currently can do, and will
in future be able to do, in respect | 1:19:52 | 1:19:57 | |
of companies like Toys "R" Us, where
we had a management team led by a | 1:19:57 | 1:20:03 | |
man called Frank, who, over a long
period of time, were able to loot | 1:20:03 | 1:20:08 | |
the company, loading it up with
debt, using complex and tax havens, | 1:20:08 | 1:20:14 | |
and leaving behind a legacy of 580
million pension funds and 3000 | 1:20:14 | 1:20:19 | |
redundancies. What can he do? I like
the Right Honourable Gentleman for | 1:20:19 | 1:20:26 | |
that. -- I thank. He has vast
experience our Secretary of State | 1:20:26 | 1:20:30 | |
for our department. He is right in
identifying the value extraction | 1:20:30 | 1:20:33 | |
element in this document. As I
alluded to earlier, we see that when | 1:20:33 | 1:20:41 | |
a businesses particularly taken
over, the directors of the company | 1:20:41 | 1:20:45 | |
purchased it often put in place
complicated measures in order to | 1:20:45 | 1:20:49 | |
protect their own back, in order to
make sure whatever happens to that | 1:20:49 | 1:20:52 | |
business, they are not impacted. The
powers within this would allow us to | 1:20:52 | 1:21:04 | |
recoup and recover that amount of
money, not just for directors, for | 1:21:04 | 1:21:11 | |
shareholders, but for contractors
and creditors within the supply | 1:21:11 | 1:21:14 | |
chain. In relation to toys -- Toys
"R" Us, he recognises that some | 1:21:14 | 1:21:22 | |
businesses will always fail. This
Government is very clear that this | 1:21:22 | 1:21:27 | |
set of measures, particularly
putting the emphasis on the | 1:21:27 | 1:21:33 | |
responsibility not just of directors
but also our shareholders, and I | 1:21:33 | 1:21:37 | |
think this is a very important
point, that shareholders, | 1:21:37 | 1:21:40 | |
particularly institutional
shareholders, have a voice in the | 1:21:40 | 1:21:42 | |
Could I ask him to extend this
consultation or perhaps a future on | 1:21:55 | 1:22:03 | |
into the forced liquidations of
often small and sometimes slightly | 1:22:03 | 1:22:06 | |
vulnerable businesses, by | 1:22:06 | 1:22:19 | |
banks and other creditors, which are
totally unnecessary and could be | 1:22:21 | 1:22:23 | |
resolved by other means and retain
jobs as opposed to leaving bust | 1:22:23 | 1:22:28 | |
businesses which should be thriving.
Mr Speaker, we have seen over recent | 1:22:28 | 1:22:30 | |
weeks the impact the banks can have
on small businesses when they act | 1:22:30 | 1:22:34 | |
inappropriately. I've been meeting
with the PPP recently to see how we | 1:22:34 | 1:22:38 | |
can get more accountability -- the
APPG. Eye would be delighted to meet | 1:22:38 | 1:22:50 | |
with the honourable gentleman to
find out what ideas he has. Mr | 1:22:50 | 1:22:57 | |
Speaker, can I ask for some
clarification please. Could you tell | 1:22:57 | 1:23:01 | |
me if it is usual when an MP from a
constituency visits a different | 1:23:01 | 1:23:05 | |
constituency for them to let that
member no because in the last ten | 1:23:05 | 1:23:09 | |
days two MPs from the benches
opposite have visited my | 1:23:09 | 1:23:13 | |
constituency and I've had no notice.
You never know, we might have | 1:23:13 | 1:23:17 | |
another visit coming up shortly. The
short answer to the honourable lady, | 1:23:17 | 1:23:25 | |
and I thank her for it, is a member
visiting another member's | 1:23:25 | 1:23:29 | |
constituency on public business
should notify and it should be done | 1:23:29 | 1:23:39 | |
in a timely way. It is a matter of
Parliamentary courtesy, a | 1:23:39 | 1:23:43 | |
long-standing convention of the
House. It's about -- a regrettable | 1:23:43 | 1:23:51 | |
situation if honourable members feel
the need to raise this on the floor | 1:23:51 | 1:23:55 | |
of the House. Members should simply
show a basic level of courtesy and | 1:23:55 | 1:24:00 | |
respect for each other in these
matters. If there are no further | 1:24:00 | 1:24:03 | |
points of order we come now to the
presentation of Bill Secretary | 1:24:03 | 1:24:09 | |
Bradley. | 1:24:09 | 1:24:19 | |
Northern Ireland anticipation and
adjustment spill. | 1:24:20 | 1:24:31 | |
I beg to move leave be given to
bring in a bill to bring in fire | 1:24:38 | 1:24:46 | |
information for occupants of
high-rise buildings. Following the | 1:24:46 | 1:24:52 | |
tragic events at Grenfell Tower
there's been a great deal of | 1:24:52 | 1:24:56 | |
attention focused on the urgent need
to improve fire safety including | 1:24:56 | 1:25:00 | |
materials for construction, the
effectiveness of building | 1:25:00 | 1:25:03 | |
regulations and the need for string
close. The safety of residents of | 1:25:03 | 1:25:07 | |
high-rise buildings is the
overriding concern and our efforts | 1:25:07 | 1:25:13 | |
should be concentrated on ensuring
that they are afforded the best | 1:25:13 | 1:25:17 | |
protection. To this end, the setting
up of the independent review of | 1:25:17 | 1:25:21 | |
building regulations and fire safety
was a vitally important step and we | 1:25:21 | 1:25:29 | |
look forward to seeing her report
and recommendations which are | 1:25:29 | 1:25:32 | |
believe expected in the spring. In
the aftermath of the Grenfell Tower | 1:25:32 | 1:25:38 | |
fire, like many other members of
Parliament, I made inquiries about | 1:25:38 | 1:25:43 | |
the high-rise residential buildings
in my own constituency, their | 1:25:43 | 1:25:51 | |
physical safety but also the extent
to which residents knew what to do | 1:25:51 | 1:25:55 | |
in the event of a fire. I would like
to put on record my gratitude to | 1:25:55 | 1:26:01 | |
Hampshire Fire and rescue and the
excellent work they did to carry out | 1:26:01 | 1:26:04 | |
inspections of high-rise buildings
and also making home safety visits, | 1:26:04 | 1:26:11 | |
and importantly responding to
fantastic way to residents' | 1:26:11 | 1:26:21 | |
concerns. However it became clear to
me that one of the issues causing | 1:26:21 | 1:26:26 | |
concern was the lack of transparency
about who was responsible for fire | 1:26:26 | 1:26:29 | |
safety in their building. And the
lack of information made available | 1:26:29 | 1:26:35 | |
to them. This lack of information
and transparency was first raised | 1:26:35 | 1:26:40 | |
with me by a constituent in
Basingstoke who was renting a flat | 1:26:40 | 1:26:45 | |
from a leaseholder in a privately
owned high-rise residential block. | 1:26:45 | 1:26:54 | |
He was seeking to satisfy himself
about the safety of the building in | 1:26:54 | 1:26:58 | |
which he lived but he found it
incredibly difficult to access this | 1:26:58 | 1:27:01 | |
sort of information. In the first
place it was unclear who was | 1:27:01 | 1:27:05 | |
responsible for fire safety, and the
managing agent would not tell him | 1:27:05 | 1:27:09 | |
who even owned the freehold of the
building. It transpired the managing | 1:27:09 | 1:27:16 | |
agents were the responsible person
but refuse to give him access to | 1:27:16 | 1:27:19 | |
fire risk assessments on the basis
they didn't routinely make them | 1:27:19 | 1:27:24 | |
available to residents. Eventually
when I secured a copy of the fire | 1:27:24 | 1:27:28 | |
risk assessment and sent it to my
constituents, he was very concerned | 1:27:28 | 1:27:32 | |
to find out that a number of fire
risks had been raised within the | 1:27:32 | 1:27:37 | |
report, including serious faults on
the vent control panel which the | 1:27:37 | 1:27:43 | |
report identified as a hazard for
escape routes and evacuation. He | 1:27:43 | 1:27:48 | |
went on to try and find out whether
remedial actions had been taken but | 1:27:48 | 1:27:53 | |
then received conflicting
information. One way in which he | 1:27:53 | 1:27:56 | |
could have raised these issues would
be if the managing agent for the | 1:27:56 | 1:28:01 | |
building, the responsible person,
were to hold a residents meeting to | 1:28:01 | 1:28:05 | |
enable occupants to receive
information and to scrutinise what | 1:28:05 | 1:28:09 | |
action had been taken. However the
managing agents didn't feel it | 1:28:09 | 1:28:13 | |
necessary to hold such a meeting and
instead issued correspondence which | 1:28:13 | 1:28:23 | |
in practice was with the leaseholder
of the individual flat and not the | 1:28:23 | 1:28:26 | |
actual occupants. When I worked with
my local authority, I found out... | 1:28:26 | 1:28:30 | |
Try to find out how other high-rise
buildings were managed in my | 1:28:30 | 1:28:34 | |
constituency with regards to fire
safety. The borough council are very | 1:28:34 | 1:28:38 | |
supportive of the proposition that
the responsible person should hold | 1:28:38 | 1:28:42 | |
an annual meeting to clarify fire
safety strategy for the building and | 1:28:42 | 1:28:46 | |
to allow an opportunity for
residents to raise any queries they | 1:28:46 | 1:28:49 | |
might have. It was clear the
practice in my constituency varies | 1:28:49 | 1:28:58 | |
greatly. On managing agents said
they hold annual meetings with | 1:28:58 | 1:29:04 | |
residents on an annual basis and the
fire safety arrangements issue was | 1:29:04 | 1:29:08 | |
on the agenda, and in fact a meeting
had been held just prior to the | 1:29:08 | 1:29:12 | |
Grenfell Tower fire. Other
organisations, including for the | 1:29:12 | 1:29:21 | |
building where my constituent lives,
didn't see the need for such a | 1:29:21 | 1:29:23 | |
meeting so the main purpose of this
bill is to require the responsible | 1:29:23 | 1:29:28 | |
person for all high-rise residential
buildings to hold an annual meeting | 1:29:28 | 1:29:34 | |
for all residents to inform them of
the fire risk assessment and to | 1:29:34 | 1:29:38 | |
address all the fire safety issues
that might have been raised. | 1:29:38 | 1:29:42 | |
Currently the responsible person for
any high-rise building is required | 1:29:42 | 1:29:46 | |
to have fire risk assessments of the
building carried out regularly. | 1:29:46 | 1:29:50 | |
These will identify any fire risks
in the building and require remedial | 1:29:50 | 1:29:55 | |
works to be carried out. However,
there is no requirement currently | 1:29:55 | 1:30:00 | |
for these assessments to be shared
with residents, no transparency | 1:30:00 | 1:30:03 | |
which might help improve the safety
of people living in high-rise | 1:30:03 | 1:30:07 | |
accommodation. From the experience
in my constituency, there is some | 1:30:07 | 1:30:14 | |
good practice but that is not
necessarily widespread. I believe | 1:30:14 | 1:30:17 | |
residents have a right to know where
the fire risks have been identified | 1:30:17 | 1:30:21 | |
in their building and to be allowed
to come to their own conclusions of | 1:30:21 | 1:30:27 | |
the level of risk they are willing
to accept. An annual meeting should | 1:30:27 | 1:30:33 | |
be held to go through the fire risk
assessment and to review and report | 1:30:33 | 1:30:37 | |
on the measures being taken to
address any risks identified. In | 1:30:37 | 1:30:42 | |
this way, progress on rectifying
problems will be transparent to | 1:30:42 | 1:30:45 | |
residents. An annual residents
meeting would also be a useful form | 1:30:45 | 1:30:50 | |
of communication about fire safety
with residents who may not be the | 1:30:50 | 1:30:57 | |
leaseholders of those flats. When
the interim report was published in | 1:30:57 | 1:31:02 | |
December last year, it recognised
the need to reassure residents an | 1:31:02 | 1:31:10 | |
effective system was in place to
maintain safety and the buildings | 1:31:10 | 1:31:15 | |
which were their homes. This bill
will ensure the responsible person | 1:31:15 | 1:31:19 | |
holds an annual meeting for
residents to share with them the | 1:31:19 | 1:31:22 | |
fire risk assessment and make sure
residents are aware of how fire | 1:31:22 | 1:31:26 | |
safety is being managed in their own
home. This should be in line with | 1:31:26 | 1:31:30 | |
the direction of travel of the
independent review but goes a step | 1:31:30 | 1:31:34 | |
further. It provides residents with
more information and a greater | 1:31:34 | 1:31:39 | |
degree of transparency than has been
the case to date. Everyone who lives | 1:31:39 | 1:31:43 | |
in a high-rise building has the
right to know if there are fire | 1:31:43 | 1:31:47 | |
issues that have been identified,
how they have been tackled and most | 1:31:47 | 1:31:52 | |
importantly what they should do in
the event of a fire. At the moment | 1:31:52 | 1:31:56 | |
there is no transparency, Apache
practice, residents deserve better | 1:31:56 | 1:32:04 | |
and I recommend the proposed bill to
the House. The question is that the | 1:32:04 | 1:32:12 | |
right honourable member have leave
to bring in the bill. As many of | 1:32:12 | 1:32:15 | |
that opinion say I... On the
contrary know. The ayes have it. Who | 1:32:15 | 1:32:25 | |
will prepare and bring in the bill?
Mr Iain Duncan Smith, Stephen | 1:32:25 | 1:32:31 | |
Hammond, Theresa Villiers, Sarah
Champion, Harriet Harman, David | 1:32:31 | 1:32:35 | |
Lammy, just Phillips, Lucy Powell
and myself, Madam Deputy Speaker. | 1:32:35 | 1:32:40 | |
Mrs Maria Miller. | 1:32:40 | 1:32:51 | |
Fire safety information Bill. Second
reading what day? 26th of October. | 1:33:09 | 1:33:19 | |
26th of October. We now come to the
Northern Ireland budget anticipation | 1:33:19 | 1:33:26 | |
and adjustments bill. Business of
the House motion. Minister to move? | 1:33:26 | 1:33:34 | |
The question is the Northern Ireland
budget anticipation and adjustments | 1:33:34 | 1:33:41 | |
bill motion as on the order paper.
As many of that opinion, say aye. On | 1:33:41 | 1:33:54 | |
the contrary no. The ayes have it.
The clerk will now proceed to read | 1:33:54 | 1:34:04 | |
the orders of the day. Northern
Ireland budget anticipation and | 1:34:04 | 1:34:08 | |
adjustments bill, second reading.
Somebody say now. Now! Secretary of | 1:34:08 | 1:34:23 | |
State Mrs Karen Bradley. As I set
out to the House in my statement | 1:34:23 | 1:34:26 | |
last week, in order for the UK
Government to uphold its commitments | 1:34:26 | 1:34:29 | |
in the interest of all parts of the
community in Northern Ireland, there | 1:34:29 | 1:34:33 | |
are series of steps required to
safeguard public services and | 1:34:33 | 1:34:37 | |
finances. The bill before the House
today represents the first of those | 1:34:37 | 1:34:41 | |
steps with the legislation scheduled
to followed tomorrow. I take these | 1:34:41 | 1:34:48 | |
measures with the greatest of
reluctance, I have deferred action | 1:34:48 | 1:34:51 | |
until it was clear it would not be
possible for a restored executive to | 1:34:51 | 1:34:56 | |
take this legislation forward but as
we approach the end of the financial | 1:34:56 | 1:34:58 | |
year it is important we proceed now
to give certainty that the Northern | 1:34:58 | 1:35:03 | |
Ireland civil service look to
continue to protect and preserve | 1:35:03 | 1:35:06 | |
public services. Last year the UK
Government had to step in and asked | 1:35:06 | 1:35:11 | |
parliament to legislate for 2017/18
budget for Northern Ireland. Again, | 1:35:11 | 1:35:15 | |
not a step we wanted to take but it
gave the Northern Ireland this -- | 1:35:15 | 1:35:23 | |
Northern Ireland civil service the
ability to perform what they needed | 1:35:23 | 1:35:30 | |
to do. No direction were set out for
how spending decisions should be | 1:35:30 | 1:35:35 | |
made, instead they set out in more | 1:35:35 | 1:35:38 | |
departmental spending allocations
within which permanent secretaries | 1:35:38 | 1:35:40 | |
could deliver on their respective
responsibilities. That act was bat | 1:35:40 | 1:35:45 | |
in November, since then the Northern
Ireland civil service have continued | 1:35:45 | 1:35:48 | |
assessing where pressure is like
across the system and reallocated | 1:35:48 | 1:35:51 | |
resources as required. In addition
the UK Government is committed in | 1:35:51 | 1:35:56 | |
November to providing £50 million of
support arising from the agreement | 1:35:56 | 1:36:02 | |
to address pressures. Of that, we
agreed £20 million would be made | 1:36:02 | 1:36:11 | |
available in 2017/18 with the
remainder to form part of the | 1:36:11 | 1:36:13 | |
resource totals available in 20
18th/ 19th and that additional | 1:36:13 | 1:36:18 | |
funding was confirmed in the supply
and appropriation anticipation and | 1:36:18 | 1:36:22 | |
adjustments act which received Royal
assent last week. Those changes must | 1:36:22 | 1:36:30 | |
now be reflected in the legal
spending authority provided to the | 1:36:30 | 1:36:34 | |
Northern Ireland Administration and
that is what this bill does. In | 1:36:34 | 1:36:39 | |
addition, the Bill provides for a
vote on account of the early months | 1:36:39 | 1:36:44 | |
of next year to give legal authority
for managing day-to-day spending in | 1:36:44 | 1:36:47 | |
the run-up to that Estimates
process. Honourable and right | 1:36:47 | 1:36:52 | |
honourable members may recall there
was no such action this year with no | 1:36:52 | 1:36:56 | |
budget legislation for Northern
Ireland before November. This meant | 1:36:56 | 1:37:00 | |
the Northern Ireland civil service
had to rely on section 59 of the | 1:37:00 | 1:37:03 | |
Northern Ireland act to issue cash
and resources. These are emergency | 1:37:03 | 1:37:12 | |
powers intended to be used only in
the absence of more orthodox legal | 1:37:12 | 1:37:16 | |
authority. As we take forward
legislation to formalise the budget | 1:37:16 | 1:37:20 | |
for last year, I don't consider it
would be appropriate if we didn't | 1:37:20 | 1:37:23 | |
provide the usual vote on account
facility. A facility provided to UK | 1:37:23 | 1:37:29 | |
Government departments through our
own spring supplementary Estimates | 1:37:29 | 1:37:31 | |
process. | 1:37:31 | 1:37:35 | |
To be very clear, this is not a
budget for the overhead. The bill | 1:37:35 | 1:37:39 | |
does not seek to set out in the
legislation the guidelines I sat in | 1:37:39 | 1:37:46 | |
March. They will be taken forward in
a budget bill in the summer, as is | 1:37:46 | 1:37:50 | |
the case for the United Kingdom
finances as a whole. Of course, I | 1:37:50 | 1:37:53 | |
have this budget bill will be
brought forward by an executive but | 1:37:53 | 1:37:57 | |
we must be prepared for the
potential it would be game foot to | 1:37:57 | 1:38:01 | |
this Parliament to gain budget
certainty. Nor does it seek to vote | 1:38:01 | 1:38:07 | |
any new money is the Northern
Ireland. The total to which it is | 1:38:07 | 1:38:10 | |
related at either locally raised or
have been subject to previous vote | 1:38:10 | 1:38:15 | |
in parliament, most recently in the
supply and appropriation adjustments | 1:38:15 | 1:38:20 | |
bill. Instead, the bill looks back
to confirm spending totals for | 1:38:20 | 1:38:25 | |
2017-18 to ensure Northern Ireland
civil service has a secure legal | 1:38:25 | 1:38:28 | |
basis for its spending in the past
year. As such, it formally allocates | 1:38:28 | 1:38:33 | |
the £20 million of confidence and
supply funding already committed for | 1:38:33 | 1:38:38 | |
2017-18. It is not concerned with
any of the £410 million set out in | 1:38:38 | 1:38:43 | |
my budget statement last week which
will be a matter for the UK | 1:38:43 | 1:38:47 | |
estimates in the summer and foreign
Northern Ireland budget bill | 1:38:47 | 1:38:50 | |
thereafter. Taken as a whole, it
represents the minimum necessary | 1:38:50 | 1:38:54 | |
intervention to secure public
finances at this juncture. | 1:38:54 | 1:38:57 | |
I will turn very briefly to the
content of the bill, as it will | 1:38:57 | 1:39:00 | |
largely rehearse the discussions my
predecessor, who I know will be with | 1:39:00 | 1:39:06 | |
us when he has finished a piece of
secondary legislation he is involved | 1:39:06 | 1:39:09 | |
in upstairs. He is here, still here,
good. Bringing forward the Northern | 1:39:09 | 1:39:15 | |
Ireland budget before this house.
I'm delighted to see he is here and | 1:39:15 | 1:39:19 | |
know he will contribute later when
he has served on the secondary | 1:39:19 | 1:39:22 | |
legislation observes.
In short, it authorises Northern | 1:39:22 | 1:39:26 | |
Ireland departments and other bodies
to incur expenditure and use | 1:39:26 | 1:39:29 | |
resources for the financial year
ending on 31st of March, 2018. | 1:39:29 | 1:39:33 | |
Clause one authorises the money out
of the Consolidated fund of Northern | 1:39:33 | 1:39:39 | |
Ireland. The allocation levels for
each Northern Ireland department and | 1:39:39 | 1:39:43 | |
the other bodies in receipt of these
funds are set out in schedule one | 1:39:43 | 1:39:47 | |
which also states the purpose for
which these funds are to be used. | 1:39:47 | 1:39:50 | |
Clause two authorises the use of
resources amounting to £80 million | 1:39:50 | 1:39:58 | |
by the Northern Ireland departments
and other bodies listed in clause | 1:39:58 | 1:40:03 | |
three, subsection two. Clause three
sets revise limits on accruing | 1:40:03 | 1:40:08 | |
resources including operating a
non-operating resources in the | 1:40:08 | 1:40:11 | |
current financial year. These are
all largely as they appeared in the | 1:40:11 | 1:40:15 | |
Northern Ireland budget 2017 and the
revised totals for departments | 1:40:15 | 1:40:19 | |
appear in schedules one and two the
bill." McGrath does not have a | 1:40:19 | 1:40:23 | |
parallel in that act. It sets out
the power for the NIC efforts to | 1:40:23 | 1:40:28 | |
issue out of the NI Consolidated
fund some £7.35 | 1:40:28 | 1:40:41 | |
billion in cash for the forthcoming
financial year. This is the voting | 1:40:45 | 1:40:48 | |
account provision I have audio line.
It is linked across six which does | 1:40:48 | 1:40:50 | |
the same in terms of resources. The
value is set as a standard at around | 1:40:50 | 1:40:53 | |
45% of the sum is available in both
regards in the previous financial | 1:40:53 | 1:40:56 | |
year. Schedules three and four
operate on the same basis, with each | 1:40:56 | 1:40:59 | |
department to allegation set at 45%
of the previous year. Clause five | 1:40:59 | 1:41:01 | |
permit some temporary borrowing
powers the cash management purposes. | 1:41:01 | 1:41:02 | |
As I have already noted, these sums
relate to those that have ready been | 1:41:02 | 1:41:05 | |
voted by Parliament, together with
revenue generated locally in | 1:41:05 | 1:41:08 | |
Northern Ireland. There is no new
money contained within this bill. | 1:41:08 | 1:41:12 | |
There is simply the explicit
authority to spend involve the | 1:41:12 | 1:41:14 | |
monies that have already been
allocated. Of course. | 1:41:14 | 1:41:19 | |
Thank you. I am grateful to the
Secretary of State for allowing me | 1:41:19 | 1:41:23 | |
to intervene. She will be well aware
under the allocation to the | 1:41:23 | 1:41:27 | |
executive office, it actually, in
detail, expresses actions associated | 1:41:27 | 1:41:35 | |
with the preparation and
implementation of the historical | 1:41:35 | 1:41:40 | |
institutional abuse inquiry report
on findings. What exactly is going | 1:41:40 | 1:41:46 | |
to be implemented and done? It is
long overdue, very long overdue, | 1:41:46 | 1:41:49 | |
what is going to happen in Northern
Ireland as a result of today's bill? | 1:41:49 | 1:41:55 | |
Madam Deputy Speaker I thank the
honourable lady for her | 1:41:55 | 1:41:57 | |
intervention. We have, the two of us
have discussed this at the select | 1:41:57 | 1:42:04 | |
committee and also in this house. As
I have said, what this bill does is | 1:42:04 | 1:42:08 | |
agrees the money that has already
been spent in regard to the heart | 1:42:08 | 1:42:13 | |
inquiry. That was an inquiry set up
by the executive and therefore it is | 1:42:13 | 1:42:18 | |
quite right that in this bill we
agree that that money that has been | 1:42:18 | 1:42:24 | |
spent has been properly unlawfully
spent. In terms of the treatment of | 1:42:24 | 1:42:29 | |
the victims of historical abuse, and
she will know, as we all do, we'll | 1:42:29 | 1:42:32 | |
wish to seek those victims see the
justice that they so rightly deserve | 1:42:32 | 1:42:40 | |
but she will also know that this was
an inquiry set up by the executive | 1:42:40 | 1:42:44 | |
and is therefore quite right that it
should be, the recommendations dealt | 1:42:44 | 1:42:48 | |
with by the executive. It's a great
shame we don't have an executive to | 1:42:48 | 1:42:51 | |
deal with these things. It would be
constitutionally inappropriate for | 1:42:51 | 1:42:55 | |
this house to determine the actions
that should be taken in regard to | 1:42:55 | 1:43:01 | |
those recommendations, because this
house did not set up that inquiry, | 1:43:01 | 1:43:05 | |
it was set up by the executive, and
that is the right place for the | 1:43:05 | 1:43:09 | |
recommendations to be considered and
decisions taken about those | 1:43:09 | 1:43:12 | |
recommendations. But I'm unaware of
the point she races and I know we | 1:43:12 | 1:43:15 | |
will continue to discuss this point.
Going back to the bill, it would | 1:43:15 | 1:43:19 | |
ordinarily have been taken through
the assembly and as such at clause | 1:43:19 | 1:43:23 | |
seven there are a series of
adaptations that ensure | 1:43:23 | 1:43:35 | |
that once approved by both houses of
Westminster the bill will be treated | 1:43:35 | 1:43:38 | |
as though it were an assembly budget
at, enabling Northern Ireland public | 1:43:38 | 1:43:40 | |
finances to continue to function,
notwithstanding the absence of an | 1:43:40 | 1:43:42 | |
executive. Alongside the bill itself
I have also laid before the House as | 1:43:42 | 1:43:45 | |
a command paper a set of
supplementary Estimates for the | 1:43:45 | 1:43:47 | |
departments and bodies covered by
the bill. These estimates which have | 1:43:47 | 1:43:49 | |
been prepared by the Northern
Ireland finance set out in greater | 1:43:49 | 1:43:53 | |
detail. As honourable and right
honourable members may note, this is | 1:43:53 | 1:43:58 | |
a different process to that which we
might ordinarily see that estimates | 1:43:58 | 1:44:02 | |
at Westminster, where the estimates
documents precedes the former budget | 1:44:02 | 1:44:08 | |
document and is proved. This will be
the case as the assembly. As was the | 1:44:08 | 1:44:11 | |
case in November, the bill provides
the layering of the command paper | 1:44:11 | 1:44:14 | |
takes the place of an estimates
document laden approved before this | 1:44:14 | 1:44:18 | |
assembly. Again, to enable public
finances to flow smoothly. | 1:44:18 | 1:44:25 | |
Thank you and I thank the Secretary
of State for giving way. Could I | 1:44:25 | 1:44:30 | |
asked my right honourable friend,
assuming an executive was | 1:44:30 | 1:44:33 | |
reconstituted at some stage during
the year, perhaps say in six months' | 1:44:33 | 1:44:38 | |
time, would members of that
executive have any ability to | 1:44:38 | 1:44:43 | |
fiddle, change, adjust the budget
she is proposing or is it set for | 1:44:43 | 1:44:50 | |
the year?
No, my honourable and gallant friend | 1:44:50 | 1:44:55 | |
is correct. The members of the
assembly and members of the | 1:44:55 | 1:44:58 | |
executive would have the power to
change the allocations as set out in | 1:44:58 | 1:45:03 | |
the budget and to change decisions
taken. He will know, as I said in my | 1:45:03 | 1:45:08 | |
statement last week, that's what I
did last week was the bare minimum | 1:45:08 | 1:45:14 | |
required to allow the NIC S to be
able to continue to function and | 1:45:14 | 1:45:22 | |
deliver public services but there
are many political decisions and it | 1:45:22 | 1:45:25 | |
would not be appropriate to take on
this place as we do not have the | 1:45:25 | 1:45:28 | |
executive power to do so. But the
executive would do, and I would | 1:45:28 | 1:45:31 | |
therefore urge numbers of the
assembly to do what they can as the | 1:45:31 | 1:45:39 | |
comeback to Stormont and to take
executive decision-making powers. So | 1:45:39 | 1:45:48 | |
I hope honourable and right
honourable members will agree this | 1:45:48 | 1:45:51 | |
is very much a technical step we are
taking as we approach the end of the | 1:45:51 | 1:45:55 | |
financial year. It looks backwards
rather than forward, though it does | 1:45:55 | 1:45:58 | |
avoid the use of emergency powers
for the forthcoming financial year. | 1:45:58 | 1:46:01 | |
Of course I will give away. I am
very grateful, thank you again. I'm | 1:46:01 | 1:46:07 | |
extremely grateful to the Secretary
of State for allowing me to move | 1:46:07 | 1:46:10 | |
onto different topic, the
Independent reporting commission. | 1:46:10 | 1:46:13 | |
Given the rise in North Down
regrettably of loyalist paramilitary | 1:46:13 | 1:46:21 | |
activity in North Down I'm curious
to know of the independent reporting | 1:46:21 | 1:46:24 | |
commission set up by the previous
Secretary of State, to distinguish | 1:46:24 | 1:46:29 | |
Secretary of State, who I think was
present and is not present just at | 1:46:29 | 1:46:32 | |
the moment in the chamber. What
exactly does the independent | 1:46:32 | 1:46:36 | |
reporting commission do for its
money, since paramilitary activity | 1:46:36 | 1:46:41 | |
seems to be increasing instead of
decreasing, which was its remit when | 1:46:41 | 1:46:45 | |
set up?
Madam Deputy Speaker, I have the | 1:46:45 | 1:46:50 | |
honour of meeting Mitchell trees
while I was in the US last week. I | 1:46:50 | 1:46:54 | |
think there were a number of members
opposite who also may have had the | 1:46:54 | 1:46:59 | |
chance to meet him. I expect the
independent reporting Council, | 1:46:59 | 1:47:05 | |
commission to report shortly with
interim findings. I know the members | 1:47:05 | 1:47:09 | |
will be visiting Northern Ireland
shortly and I hope to have a meeting | 1:47:09 | 1:47:12 | |
at that point but I'm well aware of
the point she races Poistogova | 1:47:12 | 1:47:15 | |
something I discussed with Mr Reece
whilst in the United States. | 1:47:15 | 1:47:23 | |
Can she just clarify for me, funding
apparently for implementing the | 1:47:23 | 1:47:30 | |
recommendations of the Hart Report
is on schedule two but also on | 1:47:30 | 1:47:38 | |
schedule three which conflict
slightly with the point made | 1:47:38 | 1:47:40 | |
earlier. I wonder if she can clarify
that, Saint schedule three appears | 1:47:40 | 1:47:44 | |
to anticipate spend on the Hart
inquiry, which we would all welcome | 1:47:44 | 1:47:51 | |
but the Secretary of State hasn't
said so explicitly. | 1:47:51 | 1:47:54 | |
I thank my honourable friend. As I
said it might earlier remarks, | 1:47:54 | 1:48:02 | |
forward-looking expenditure is
merely approving in the way we were | 1:48:02 | 1:48:06 | |
doing the normal budget process for
here in this house. 45% of spending. | 1:48:06 | 1:48:13 | |
We have done exactly the same
allocations as was spent in the | 1:48:13 | 1:48:15 | |
previous year, to enable the money
is to be spent but it is not giving | 1:48:15 | 1:48:22 | |
decision-making power to say this is
how the money should be spent. It is | 1:48:22 | 1:48:25 | |
merely giving approval that monies
can be spent by those departments. I | 1:48:25 | 1:48:33 | |
appreciate it's not an entirely
satisfactory situation but it is | 1:48:33 | 1:48:36 | |
what is required to be done to
enable departments to continue to be | 1:48:36 | 1:48:40 | |
able to function and provide public
services and we will in the summer, | 1:48:40 | 1:48:44 | |
of course, come through with the
full budget process, which I hope | 1:48:44 | 1:48:47 | |
will be done at Stormont by a
restored executive but if not it | 1:48:47 | 1:48:51 | |
will have to be done in this house.
I thank the Secretary of State for | 1:48:51 | 1:48:55 | |
giving way. She will know it is the
perpetrator that pays and is | 1:48:55 | 1:49:01 | |
punished not the taxpayer. Poggi
ensure that going forward, if there | 1:49:01 | 1:49:04 | |
is not an assembly in six months'
time that it will be the | 1:49:04 | 1:49:08 | |
institutions who perpetrated those
faults and indeed those horrible | 1:49:08 | 1:49:14 | |
pernicious attacks on individuals,
that they will be the people made to | 1:49:14 | 1:49:17 | |
pay, not the taxpayer picking up the
bill. | 1:49:17 | 1:49:20 | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, I think the
honourable gentleman's comments | 1:49:20 | 1:49:23 | |
indicate to this house that there is
not perhaps universal support for | 1:49:23 | 1:49:28 | |
every recommendation that has been
made in the Hart inquiry and that is | 1:49:28 | 1:49:33 | |
why it is important we have a
restored executive in Stormont back | 1:49:33 | 1:49:37 | |
and make decisions about those
recommendations and enable justice | 1:49:37 | 1:49:39 | |
to be delivered. If I may, I will
conclude my remarks. Of course I | 1:49:39 | 1:49:44 | |
will.
I thank the Secretary of State. She | 1:49:44 | 1:49:50 | |
confirmed the legal position is for
is this bill is concerned and what | 1:49:50 | 1:49:53 | |
it purports to do and will do if
past. Can she confirmed that in | 1:49:53 | 1:49:58 | |
terms of the written ministerial
statement allocating £410 million of | 1:49:58 | 1:50:01 | |
the money at the start of the
financial year, governments and | 1:50:01 | 1:50:07 | |
northern Ireland can plan on
spending that money? | 1:50:07 | 1:50:10 | |
I thank the right honourable
gentleman. He is right. This | 1:50:10 | 1:50:13 | |
statement sets out the Dippenaar
mental allocations, what this bill | 1:50:13 | 1:50:18 | |
does is give Parliamentary approval.
-- departmental allocations. It | 1:50:18 | 1:50:22 | |
gives approval to start spending
money. It is what is required for | 1:50:22 | 1:50:25 | |
that at the start of the financial
year but not setting the final | 1:50:25 | 1:50:30 | |
allocations, it is merely giving
approval that departments can start | 1:50:30 | 1:50:32 | |
to spend. We are saying this money
can now be spent to public services | 1:50:32 | 1:50:38 | |
can be delivered. His absolute
right, the £410 million delivered | 1:50:38 | 1:50:44 | |
from the confidence and supply
agreement for 2019-20 years in the | 1:50:44 | 1:50:48 | |
allocations as set out in the
ministerial statement on the | 1:50:48 | 1:50:51 | |
departments can work on the basis
that they can start to spend that | 1:50:51 | 1:50:53 | |
money.
The point again comes, this bill | 1:50:53 | 1:50:58 | |
supplied it provides a secure
footing for the Northern Ireland | 1:50:58 | 1:51:02 | |
civil service. It is on that
platform might budget of six to | 1:51:02 | 1:51:05 | |
build. That will need to be the
subject of formal legislation in the | 1:51:05 | 1:51:09 | |
summer, as a further Northern
Ireland budget bill. That is one I | 1:51:09 | 1:51:13 | |
sincerely hope, as I have or
dissent, will be taken forward by | 1:51:13 | 1:51:17 | |
restored executive, but if required,
that is something we as the UK | 1:51:17 | 1:51:20 | |
Government would be prepared to
progress, as we uphold our | 1:51:20 | 1:51:23 | |
responsibilities to the people of
Northern Ireland. | 1:51:23 | 1:51:26 | |
In the meantime, it is those
allocations, if I may finish my | 1:51:26 | 1:51:30 | |
sentence, which that the NICS to
prepare and plan for the year ahead. | 1:51:30 | 1:51:38 | |
Which she agree with me we all want
to see the executive being restored | 1:51:38 | 1:51:42 | |
but in the absence of that in the
medium-term, which agreed the way we | 1:51:42 | 1:51:46 | |
bring for this process, it is not
satisfactory, is at least progress | 1:51:46 | 1:51:52 | |
but we need to see further progress
as to how that money is spent on the | 1:51:52 | 1:51:56 | |
ground? For much-needed services?
I thank the honourable gentleman for | 1:51:56 | 1:52:02 | |
his contribution. I agree with him,
we all want to see devolution | 1:52:02 | 1:52:05 | |
restored. As I have said, I do this
reluctantly, but I am doing what is | 1:52:05 | 1:52:11 | |
required to enable public spending
to continue and public services to | 1:52:11 | 1:52:16 | |
be delivered. I pay tribute to the
civil servants and other public | 1:52:16 | 1:52:22 | |
servants who have worked tirelessly
for the last 14 months doing that, | 1:52:22 | 1:52:26 | |
exactly that work and I want to make
sure they can continue to do | 1:52:26 | 1:52:28 | |
It is probably mean being thick but
I wonder if you can explain the | 1:52:35 | 1:52:39 | |
difference between scheduled three
and schedule four, resource is | 1:52:39 | 1:52:44 | |
authorised and resources granted for
the year ending 31st of March 2000 | 1:52:44 | 1:52:49 | |
19. Many figures look the same but
clearly there's a difference in the | 1:52:49 | 1:52:52 | |
form of words used and I would be
grateful for clarification on that | 1:52:52 | 1:52:57 | |
point. I suspect this is a deeply
technical point, it would be helpful | 1:52:57 | 1:53:03 | |
if I wrote to the honourable
gentleman and set out exactly what | 1:53:03 | 1:53:06 | |
the difference was but I want to
assure him we are proving that | 1:53:06 | 1:53:11 | |
spending can start but not approving
final numbers nor how that spending | 1:53:11 | 1:53:15 | |
happens as part of this process for
2018/ 19. We are proving today the | 1:53:15 | 1:53:21 | |
monies that have already been spent
and making sure they are on a proper | 1:53:21 | 1:53:26 | |
statutory footing so the finances of
Northern Ireland and the NICS can be | 1:53:26 | 1:53:32 | |
dealt with properly. As I conclude,
I will set out once again a point | 1:53:32 | 1:53:37 | |
I've made several times before. The
UK Government is steadfastly | 1:53:37 | 1:53:41 | |
committed to the Belfast agreement
and completely committed to working | 1:53:41 | 1:53:44 | |
to remove the barriers for
devolution and that's because | 1:53:44 | 1:53:49 | |
Northern Ireland need strong local
leadership. But in its absence, this | 1:53:49 | 1:53:56 | |
bill is a reminder of the UK
Government will always uphold its | 1:53:56 | 1:54:00 | |
responsibilities for political
stability and good governance and I | 1:54:00 | 1:54:03 | |
commend it to the House. The
question is the Bill be now read a | 1:54:03 | 1:54:08 | |
second time. Owen Smith. Madam
Deputy Speaker, Mrs a technical step | 1:54:08 | 1:54:20 | |
today and for instant clarity we
will be supporting these technical | 1:54:20 | 1:54:23 | |
measures and supporting the
provisions in the Bill. I wanted to | 1:54:23 | 1:54:27 | |
begin today by remembering on behalf
of all of us in the House Jonathan | 1:54:27 | 1:54:32 | |
ball and Tim Parry who lost their
lives in the IRA atrocity at | 1:54:32 | 1:54:38 | |
Warrington this 25 years ago today
and I know there's been a | 1:54:38 | 1:54:45 | |
commemoration today where they have
been honoured along with the other | 1:54:45 | 1:54:49 | |
people injured on Monday. I wanted
to do that to mark their tragic | 1:54:49 | 1:54:54 | |
deaths and remind us of the terrible
cost of the troubles, and the | 1:54:54 | 1:54:59 | |
reminder to complete the journey to
reconciliation between communities | 1:54:59 | 1:55:05 | |
and to get to political stability in
Northern Ireland because it is | 1:55:05 | 1:55:09 | |
something we should be reminded of
today. Can I thank the honourable | 1:55:09 | 1:55:14 | |
gentleman, and I want to put on the
record my condolences and thoughts | 1:55:14 | 1:55:20 | |
to his... He's absolutely right, to
reflect... That today marks the 25th | 1:55:20 | 1:55:27 | |
anniversary of a shocking event none
of us who lived through that time | 1:55:27 | 1:55:30 | |
will forget and it's a stark
reminder of how far we have come. Of | 1:55:30 | 1:55:38 | |
course, I welcome those words. The
bill we have before us today in | 1:55:38 | 1:55:45 | |
itself reflects the instability we
have presently in Northern Ireland, | 1:55:45 | 1:55:50 | |
the fact that reconciliation is
required. We should remind ourselves | 1:55:50 | 1:55:54 | |
too it is the seventh year out of
the 18 years of the Assembly when | 1:55:54 | 1:55:58 | |
it's been in suspension in some form
or another, a measure of some of the | 1:55:58 | 1:56:03 | |
problems we face that we still in
suspension is -- now after 14 | 1:56:03 | 1:56:11 | |
months. The commemorations remind us
too of the desperate need we still | 1:56:11 | 1:56:18 | |
have for true reconciliation between
communities because although the | 1:56:18 | 1:56:23 | |
piece is robust, we all feel that,
the reconciliation I think it's all | 1:56:23 | 1:56:27 | |
too fragile. Not withstanding the
fact it is a technical budget, a | 1:56:27 | 1:56:35 | |
technical set of measures today, not
formally a budget. I think there are | 1:56:35 | 1:56:40 | |
lots of questions about it and I
hope to pose some of them about the | 1:56:40 | 1:56:44 | |
form of the Bill, what is in it, and
what isn't in it and what should be | 1:56:44 | 1:56:49 | |
in it, reflecting some of the
comments already made by honourable | 1:56:49 | 1:56:54 | |
and right honourable members of the
House. The first is about the form | 1:56:54 | 1:56:57 | |
of the Bill because the Secretary of
State said they have done something | 1:56:57 | 1:57:00 | |
different this year, not on what
their predecessors did, and moved to | 1:57:00 | 1:57:07 | |
what is in effect a version of the
budget and the Estimates process we | 1:57:07 | 1:57:14 | |
have for the rest of the UK at
traditional points in the year. I | 1:57:14 | 1:57:21 | |
think that begs a question the
Secretary of State has partially | 1:57:21 | 1:57:24 | |
explained as to why she's done much
because it's an emergency measure, | 1:57:24 | 1:57:29 | |
but I didn't completely understand
why we have gone down that route and | 1:57:29 | 1:57:32 | |
I think it begs a question about
whether this is a further staging | 1:57:32 | 1:57:38 | |
post on that famous glide path to
direct rule. And if it is that that | 1:57:38 | 1:57:43 | |
is in mind of the Government when
they went down this route, I would | 1:57:43 | 1:57:47 | |
urge them to think harder about how
they redouble their efforts to get | 1:57:47 | 1:57:51 | |
things back up and running. If it
isn't straightforwardly a budget | 1:57:51 | 1:57:55 | |
that we are dealing with today, and
if it's only allocating 45% of the | 1:57:55 | 1:58:02 | |
spending for 2018/ 19th as I
understand it, I think the Secretary | 1:58:02 | 1:58:06 | |
of State said we would have to have
another budget bill before the | 1:58:06 | 1:58:09 | |
summer which equally I think makes
the point it's a pretty poor | 1:58:09 | 1:58:14 | |
substitute for the sort of scrutiny
and intelligence and direction we | 1:58:14 | 1:58:19 | |
would have, had we got the Stormont
executive and Assembly setting and | 1:58:19 | 1:58:24 | |
scrutinising a budget. I think some
of the confusion we have perhaps | 1:58:24 | 1:58:29 | |
heard today about the difference
between locations and appropriations | 1:58:29 | 1:58:34 | |
and the schedule three and four and
whether we are allowing for spending | 1:58:34 | 1:58:40 | |
on the HIA for example is
effectively because we have a | 1:58:40 | 1:58:47 | |
cut-and-paste piece of legislation
here. It is the same schedule with | 1:58:47 | 1:58:51 | |
the same description of objectives
and tasks facing the individual | 1:58:51 | 1:58:56 | |
departments in Northern Ireland as
we had in the Northern Ireland | 1:58:56 | 1:59:00 | |
budget 2017. Those listed in that
document... She will not the | 1:59:00 | 1:59:12 | |
significant change year on year
because that is the scope of those | 1:59:12 | 1:59:18 | |
particular departments where they
can spend, that doesn't change in | 1:59:18 | 1:59:22 | |
this document. She is exactly right,
that's the point I was coming onto, | 1:59:22 | 1:59:25 | |
and the point I was going to make is
what a poor substitute that is for | 1:59:25 | 1:59:30 | |
proper budget process because we
don't have any real insight into how | 1:59:30 | 1:59:33 | |
the money is to be spent or where
the priorities lie beyond those | 1:59:33 | 1:59:38 | |
broad headings. I think we have had
some confusion around HIA funding | 1:59:38 | 1:59:45 | |
today because I think it's clear
there is an implication of 45% of | 1:59:45 | 1:59:49 | |
the money available to address the
HIA... And I will come onto the HIA | 1:59:49 | 2:00:04 | |
more later on. But it's a poor
substitute and I think with nothing | 2:00:04 | 2:00:07 | |
should have a better degree of
scrutiny on transparency and | 2:00:07 | 2:00:11 | |
accountability and we can only have
that because this place can not | 2:00:11 | 2:00:14 | |
properly form a substitute. Want if
we get the executive back up and | 2:00:14 | 2:00:19 | |
running. I would also like to say
that all of this places Northern | 2:00:19 | 2:00:27 | |
Ireland's civil servants in a very
invidious position because they are | 2:00:27 | 2:00:32 | |
taking responsibility for providing
services, making now increasingly | 2:00:32 | 2:00:36 | |
autonomous decisions about services,
without really having a political | 2:00:36 | 2:00:44 | |
master to serve or anything to watch
their back if there is a crisis in | 2:00:44 | 2:00:48 | |
the services they are providing and
that's not a situation we would wish | 2:00:48 | 2:00:51 | |
to place them in and not one that
can continue indefinitely so I know | 2:00:51 | 2:00:58 | |
the Secretary of State is mindful of
that and that is one thing that will | 2:00:58 | 2:01:02 | |
spur on the department to redouble
their efforts, and indeed spur on | 2:01:02 | 2:01:05 | |
the parties. The civil servants will
be left carrying the can unless we | 2:01:05 | 2:01:15 | |
are able to get an executive back up
and running. There are three areas | 2:01:15 | 2:01:19 | |
of expenditure not included in the
budget today or only refer to | 2:01:19 | 2:01:23 | |
obliquely in the case of the HIA
that I think could be included in | 2:01:23 | 2:01:27 | |
the budget and could have been dealt
with more fully today, and in the | 2:01:27 | 2:01:32 | |
coming months. The first is the
historical institutional abuse | 2:01:32 | 2:01:36 | |
inquiry conducted by Sir Anthony
Harton which right honourable | 2:01:36 | 2:01:41 | |
members have referred to already
today and it of course made this | 2:01:41 | 2:01:44 | |
recommendation before the executive
collapsed. It recommended the | 2:01:44 | 2:01:48 | |
hundreds of men and women who
survived historical abuse in the 20 | 2:01:48 | 2:01:54 | |
institutions in Northern Ireland
should be commemorated and also | 2:01:54 | 2:01:57 | |
crucially compensated for the abuse
they experienced. Would the member | 2:01:57 | 2:02:05 | |
agree that his taxpaying
constituents in Pontypridd and mine | 2:02:05 | 2:02:15 | |
in Northampton should actually pay
the compensation or does he believe | 2:02:15 | 2:02:19 | |
the institutions who carried out the
abuse should be made to pay the | 2:02:19 | 2:02:23 | |
compensation, given the vast amounts
of money some of those institutions | 2:02:23 | 2:02:28 | |
actually possess? It will be for the
Government and hopefully the | 2:02:28 | 2:02:32 | |
executive to make a determination
but my view is it will be both that | 2:02:32 | 2:02:36 | |
will have to bear some cost, some of
the institutions that were involved, | 2:02:36 | 2:02:41 | |
as happened in the Irish Republic,
will have to bear some of the cost. | 2:02:41 | 2:02:47 | |
Where we have state run
institutions, that will be a cost | 2:02:47 | 2:02:50 | |
borne by the taxpayers but I think
the reality is that what we have all | 2:02:50 | 2:02:54 | |
got to recognise, and I know the
honourable gentleman does, is the | 2:02:54 | 2:02:58 | |
abuse suffered by those individuals
was heinous and there must be way | 2:02:58 | 2:03:03 | |
found for them to be properly
compensated. The fact we have this | 2:03:03 | 2:03:08 | |
impasse in Northern Ireland, it can
get in the way of that and we need | 2:03:08 | 2:03:11 | |
to move forward which is why have a
particular question for the | 2:03:11 | 2:03:15 | |
Secretary of State because my
impression on hearing the evidence | 2:03:15 | 2:03:18 | |
given David Stirling, the head of
the Northern Ireland civil service, | 2:03:18 | 2:03:27 | |
giving evidence of the Northern
Ireland affairs select committee | 2:03:27 | 2:03:30 | |
just a month or so ago was that he
was preparing, is preparing | 2:03:30 | 2:03:35 | |
legislation in respect of the HIA
and he said explicitly that if there | 2:03:35 | 2:03:40 | |
is no executive in place by the
summer, was the implication is that | 2:03:40 | 2:03:44 | |
is when the legislation will be
ready, then he will be asking the | 2:03:44 | 2:03:48 | |
Secretary of State to bring forward
legislation in this place, in | 2:03:48 | 2:03:52 | |
Westminster, in order to give effect
to the recommendations of the hard | 2:03:52 | 2:03:56 | |
inquiry. I thought there was a gap
left there, and I want to be sure | 2:03:56 | 2:04:05 | |
she will bring forward list nation
notwithstanding the fact we would | 2:04:05 | 2:04:09 | |
like Stormont to do so. To be clear,
I heard the evidence given by David | 2:04:09 | 2:04:17 | |
Stirling as well and I have spoken
to him about this matter. But | 2:04:17 | 2:04:23 | |
constitutionally this was an inquiry
set up by the executive, it reported | 2:04:23 | 2:04:28 | |
to the executive, unfortunately the
executive was unable to take | 2:04:28 | 2:04:31 | |
decisions before it collapsed on the
recommendations and he will | 2:04:31 | 2:04:34 | |
understand I know, because of his
closeness to this issue throughout | 2:04:34 | 2:04:38 | |
his long political career, that the
constitutional implications of the | 2:04:38 | 2:04:44 | |
Westminster Parliament or government
taking a decision about something | 2:04:44 | 2:04:48 | |
set up by a devolved institution are
not ones to be taken lightly but of | 2:04:48 | 2:04:53 | |
course if David Stirling should
write to me making specific requests | 2:04:53 | 2:04:57 | |
I would consider them at that point.
I am grateful for the Secretary of | 2:04:57 | 2:05:04 | |
State for the clarification but
effectively she double down on what | 2:05:04 | 2:05:08 | |
she said earlier and my response is
to say I don't think that's good | 2:05:08 | 2:05:11 | |
enough. I believe this is an issue
where those people have waited long | 2:05:11 | 2:05:15 | |
enough. I think the report was
before the Assembly claps, I think | 2:05:15 | 2:05:20 | |
there is widespread political
support across the piece that there | 2:05:20 | 2:05:24 | |
should be compensation paid and I
hope therefore, notwithstanding the | 2:05:24 | 2:05:31 | |
complications and in some sense you
would be rescinding measure of | 2:05:31 | 2:05:34 | |
devolution, we would find it in this
place to legislate and provide the | 2:05:34 | 2:05:38 | |
resources. That's the view of this
side of the House and I'm sure the | 2:05:38 | 2:05:43 | |
Secretary of State will reflect on
that. The report from Judge Hart who | 2:05:43 | 2:05:52 | |
headed that inquiry came a short
time after the collapse, and it was | 2:05:52 | 2:05:55 | |
a point raised to Sinn Fein in terms
of the timing of the collapse | 2:05:55 | 2:05:59 | |
because we established that with
Sinn Fein, they knew the report was | 2:05:59 | 2:06:02 | |
coming and we wanted to hold on in
order to make decisions. The | 2:06:02 | 2:06:08 | |
honourable lady is right, it was a
matter of days after the executive | 2:06:08 | 2:06:15 | |
collapse but it doesn't change my
point, that there is widespread | 2:06:15 | 2:06:18 | |
political support for action on
this. David Stirling clearly thinks | 2:06:18 | 2:06:22 | |
it would be acceptable to legislate
in this place and I put on the | 2:06:22 | 2:06:26 | |
record that on this side of the
House we think it would be | 2:06:26 | 2:06:29 | |
acceptable to legislate in this
place and we think the Secretary of | 2:06:29 | 2:06:32 | |
State should do so. The second area
of omission I wish to bring to the | 2:06:32 | 2:06:38 | |
House's attention is the legacy of
the troubles and again I know this | 2:06:38 | 2:06:42 | |
is something the Secretary of State
is reflecting on, we know it was | 2:06:42 | 2:06:49 | |
part of discussion between the
parties in the recent talks that | 2:06:49 | 2:06:52 | |
have stalled unfortunately, but in
the light of the failure of the | 2:06:52 | 2:06:54 | |
talks I wonder of the Secretary of
State could say more about whether | 2:06:54 | 2:06:57 | |
and how she might bring forward
resources and legislation to take | 2:06:57 | 2:07:01 | |
forward the issue of dealing with
the legacy of the past. If she wants | 2:07:01 | 2:07:05 | |
to entertain -- intervene that would
be great. I think it is worth | 2:07:05 | 2:07:13 | |
confirming what I have said
previously about this and no doubt | 2:07:13 | 2:07:17 | |
we will talk about it again tomorrow
during Oral Questions, but I have | 2:07:17 | 2:07:21 | |
been clear the UK Government is
committed to setting up the | 2:07:21 | 2:07:26 | |
institutions that were agreed in the
Stormont house talks process. We | 2:07:26 | 2:07:30 | |
will consult on how to set those
institutions up shortly but we | 2:07:30 | 2:07:34 | |
remain committed to doing that. | 2:07:34 | 2:07:38 | |
I'm grateful for that confirmation.
I'm sure people in Northern Ireland | 2:07:38 | 2:07:42 | |
will find it reassuring. I would ask
you to consider the plea that the | 2:07:42 | 2:07:46 | |
Lord Chief Justice made in respect
of a separate set of resources to | 2:07:46 | 2:07:50 | |
allow the few remaining legacy
inquests to be taken in a timely | 2:07:50 | 2:07:54 | |
fashion, because some of the people
affected of course are ill, some | 2:07:54 | 2:07:58 | |
have died already and every passing
month, frankly, injustice hanging in | 2:07:58 | 2:08:03 | |
the air. We could be dealing with
that to in this place. | 2:08:03 | 2:08:09 | |
Third, the bill could and in our
view should have included financial | 2:08:09 | 2:08:13 | |
provision to provide for a pension
for the seriously injured victims | 2:08:13 | 2:08:17 | |
and survivors of the troubles.
There were of course around 500 or | 2:08:17 | 2:08:24 | |
still presently 500 seriously
injured physically injured | 2:08:24 | 2:08:27 | |
survivors, many of whom live in is
significant financial hardship | 2:08:27 | 2:08:31 | |
because of their injuries and loss
of earnings in their lives as a | 2:08:31 | 2:08:35 | |
result of the legacy of the
Troubles. Some believe we can | 2:08:35 | 2:08:38 | |
provide a pension for all of those
500 as among them there are some who | 2:08:38 | 2:08:44 | |
were injured by their own hand. I
believe we think there are six | 2:08:44 | 2:08:49 | |
loyalists and four Republicans
injured by their own actions in the | 2:08:49 | 2:08:53 | |
Troubles and I acknowledge those
concerns on the difficulty it poses | 2:08:53 | 2:08:56 | |
and I acknowledge honourable members
have considerable issues about what | 2:08:56 | 2:09:02 | |
that would mean for the treatment of
victims and how we move forward in | 2:09:02 | 2:09:09 | |
respect of victims legislation. I
will give way. I thank the | 2:09:09 | 2:09:14 | |
honourable gentleman for allowing me
to intervene. I'm thinking also of | 2:09:14 | 2:09:19 | |
soldiers that many people have
actually had compensation and indeed | 2:09:19 | 2:09:24 | |
pensions. Is the honourable
gentleman thinking of them included | 2:09:24 | 2:09:28 | |
in this 500, or are they separate?
The 500 relate to civilian victims, | 2:09:28 | 2:09:36 | |
but there are, of course, as you say
separate provisions in respect of | 2:09:36 | 2:09:40 | |
injured soldiers. I think the
reality is many of the 500 have, of | 2:09:40 | 2:09:44 | |
course, received some form of
financial compensation but for many | 2:09:44 | 2:09:48 | |
of them that is money that has long
since run out and the loss of | 2:09:48 | 2:09:54 | |
earnings over a protracted period
has left significant hardship as the | 2:09:54 | 2:09:58 | |
daily reality for many men and women
in Northern Ireland. I believe this | 2:09:58 | 2:10:01 | |
is another area where we cannot
allow the perfect to be the enemy of | 2:10:01 | 2:10:07 | |
the good, and notwithstanding the
difficulties, I think the Secretary | 2:10:07 | 2:10:10 | |
of State in particular right now
should be thinking about how we | 2:10:10 | 2:10:13 | |
provide for those people.
I wonder if he is equally concerned | 2:10:13 | 2:10:19 | |
about the military covenant and the
full implementation of that in | 2:10:19 | 2:10:22 | |
Northern Ireland and will he pushed
the Secretary of State to make sure | 2:10:22 | 2:10:25 | |
that occurs also?
Of course, that is another very | 2:10:25 | 2:10:28 | |
important issue. I don't think it's
necessarily related to the substance | 2:10:28 | 2:10:32 | |
of this bill, which is largely about
financial measures but I'm sure the | 2:10:32 | 2:10:36 | |
Secretary of State will have heard
it and I will also be continuing to | 2:10:36 | 2:10:39 | |
talk about the military cabinet and
its importance to all of those in | 2:10:39 | 2:10:45 | |
Northern Ireland. On pensions,
however, the Secretary of State | 2:10:45 | 2:10:50 | |
should know some of the victims, in
particular those represented by the | 2:10:50 | 2:10:54 | |
Wave group will be here to listen to
our proceedings,. I would urge her | 2:10:54 | 2:10:58 | |
to show leadership on this issue and
to find the resources to provide | 2:10:58 | 2:11:01 | |
them with the amount of money they
need, because it will be a tiny | 2:11:01 | 2:11:06 | |
amount of money in the scheme of
things but for individuals it will | 2:11:06 | 2:11:12 | |
be a life-saver. I will.
I thank the Secretary of State for | 2:11:12 | 2:11:18 | |
giving way. He will of course no it
isn't just a question of financial | 2:11:18 | 2:11:23 | |
provision, but we will require
legislation. This party is prepared | 2:11:23 | 2:11:27 | |
to put forward a private members
Bill, to propose such a pension for | 2:11:27 | 2:11:32 | |
seriously injured victims and
survivors in Northern Ireland will | 2:11:32 | 2:11:35 | |
his party that bill?
Well, I think it would depend, map | 2:11:35 | 2:11:43 | |
Madam Deputy Speaker on the nature
of that bill, and on how all members | 2:11:43 | 2:11:48 | |
are treated. I said earlier on about
the concerns people have on the | 2:11:48 | 2:11:54 | |
definition of victim and some
individuals who might benefit from | 2:11:54 | 2:11:57 | |
such a pension. My view is clear, I
don't think we can allow the perfect | 2:11:57 | 2:12:01 | |
to be the enemy of the good. I think
even if it means some people who | 2:12:01 | 2:12:06 | |
were injured by their own hand...
Were eventually in receipt of a | 2:12:06 | 2:12:09 | |
state pension, then I think that
would be a price worth paying in | 2:12:09 | 2:12:13 | |
order to provide the necessary
resources for the vast majority of | 2:12:13 | 2:12:16 | |
innocent
Finally Madam Deputy Speaker... I | 2:12:16 | 2:12:20 | |
will. -- majority of innocent
victims. The select committee did | 2:12:20 | 2:12:25 | |
meet with Wave and look at their
proposals. As he looked at the issue | 2:12:25 | 2:12:30 | |
of how he can design a pension that
suffered mental health problems as a | 2:12:30 | 2:12:36 | |
result of the Troubles, because I
suspect it may include more people | 2:12:36 | 2:12:40 | |
than the 500 formally impound the
year he quotes but I don't see how | 2:12:40 | 2:12:44 | |
you could have a scheme that
helpless people as well. The | 2:12:44 | 2:12:48 | |
honourable gentleman I know from his
time in the select committee is very | 2:12:48 | 2:12:51 | |
familiar with this issue. He's
absolutely right, the numbers I | 2:12:51 | 2:12:54 | |
referred to are the 500 seriously
physically injured victims and | 2:12:54 | 2:13:00 | |
survivors and the 2- £3 million
quantum is annual sum associated | 2:13:00 | 2:13:06 | |
with them receiving some form of a
pension. He is right, there is also | 2:13:06 | 2:13:10 | |
a further significant issue to be
considered, those people who have | 2:13:10 | 2:13:14 | |
been injured permanently and
psychologically as a result of the | 2:13:14 | 2:13:17 | |
Troubles. No, I don't have an
absolute idea as to how that would | 2:13:17 | 2:13:20 | |
be done. I have read the
commission's report on how it might | 2:13:20 | 2:13:26 | |
be achieved and I think that would
need to be taken into account, but I | 2:13:26 | 2:13:29 | |
say again, I think time is passing
for all of these victims of the | 2:13:29 | 2:13:34 | |
Troubles and time is the one thing
they cannot afford and therefore I | 2:13:34 | 2:13:38 | |
would urge all of us in this house
to get past these difficulties and | 2:13:38 | 2:13:42 | |
see a way clear to providing the
resources that are needed. | 2:13:42 | 2:13:48 | |
Thank you for giving way. When we
had the debate, the honourable | 2:13:48 | 2:13:53 | |
gentleman said in his response you
would go back to Sinn Fein to see | 2:13:53 | 2:13:59 | |
how we could move the thing forward.
In that period of time has he had | 2:13:59 | 2:14:05 | |
the opportunity to talk to Sinn Fein
to see what their position on the | 2:14:05 | 2:14:08 | |
Northern Ireland government is? I
haven't. Finally, Madam Deputy | 2:14:08 | 2:14:16 | |
Speaker. Can I say I know the
Secretary of State agrees with media | 2:14:16 | 2:14:19 | |
should be the last year when we are
passing a budget in this place | 2:14:19 | 2:14:23 | |
instead of via Stormont but can I
ask her to do a little more to | 2:14:23 | 2:14:26 | |
outline what she is doing now to
ensure that isn't the case. For our | 2:14:26 | 2:14:32 | |
part, notwithstanding the slightly
less than successful intervention by | 2:14:32 | 2:14:34 | |
the Prime Minister in February we
believe the role for the Prime | 2:14:34 | 2:14:42 | |
Minister to galvanise parties in
Northern Ireland, to act as a | 2:14:42 | 2:14:45 | |
rallying point to try and bring
people together, ideally in some | 2:14:45 | 2:14:48 | |
sort of prime ministerial summit of
all of the parties is important. | 2:14:48 | 2:14:53 | |
These things have worked in the past
and we cannot understand why they | 2:14:53 | 2:14:57 | |
have been refused so much in the
last 14 months. We also believe the | 2:14:57 | 2:15:03 | |
issue of an independent chair to
come in and try and take on those | 2:15:03 | 2:15:06 | |
talks to fruition is something the
Secretary of State should be | 2:15:06 | 2:15:11 | |
considering. If we simply continue
with the cycle of failure that we | 2:15:11 | 2:15:14 | |
have seen in the last year, if we do
not try and change things up somehow | 2:15:14 | 2:15:19 | |
and injected new energy and dynamism
into this process than we can all | 2:15:19 | 2:15:23 | |
see the danger that we do drift
towards direct rule, and I know she | 2:15:23 | 2:15:28 | |
feels that would be grossly
retrograde step for Northern | 2:15:28 | 2:15:31 | |
Ireland, so I would urge her to tell
the House today and in the coming | 2:15:31 | 2:15:34 | |
days what she's doing to make sure
that isn't where we end up. | 2:15:34 | 2:15:38 | |
Thank you. Can I congratulate my
right honourable friend bringing for | 2:15:42 | 2:15:46 | |
this measure. She is right to say
this is something none of us wanted | 2:15:46 | 2:15:49 | |
to seek, but it is preferable to
section 59 of the Northern Ireland | 2:15:49 | 2:15:54 | |
act, not least because it means a
crude resources can be used and | 2:15:54 | 2:16:00 | |
schedules two, three and four make
sure those sums of money are | 2:16:00 | 2:16:03 | |
substantial. But clearly this bill
requires a budget to be set at some | 2:16:03 | 2:16:09 | |
point. We hope in the future it will
be set in Stormont are not here but | 2:16:09 | 2:16:14 | |
it needs to be set. It would be
useful to hear from the minister | 2:16:14 | 2:16:18 | |
when she replies to the speeches of
right honourable members that what | 2:16:18 | 2:16:24 | |
timetable she envisages. I think we
have grown used to timetables but | 2:16:24 | 2:16:28 | |
somewhat flexible in recent months,
indeed years, but it would be nice | 2:16:28 | 2:16:32 | |
to have a sense of when she intends,
as she has to bring forward a bill | 2:16:32 | 2:16:37 | |
here, off when she will do that.
I would like to thank the Secretary | 2:16:37 | 2:16:43 | |
of State for her letter to me on
March the 13th on the Northern | 2:16:43 | 2:16:48 | |
Ireland supplementary estimate,
following mine on the 28th of | 2:16:48 | 2:16:49 | |
February. I think she satisfied all
points that I raised on behalf of | 2:16:49 | 2:16:53 | |
our select committee. Can I pressed
her a little on efficiency savings? | 2:16:53 | 2:16:58 | |
It is understood from the letter
that the Northern Ireland | 2:16:58 | 2:17:01 | |
administration has already scored
the official review for 2017-20 | 2:17:01 | 2:17:07 | |
against that target, but that
efficiency targets are still | 2:17:07 | 2:17:15 | |
expected my question is how would
this be ensured, will implement it | 2:17:15 | 2:17:19 | |
and a it and what role she believes
the auditor has in this respect? I | 2:17:19 | 2:17:24 | |
will come back to talk about the
role of the auditor in just a few | 2:17:24 | 2:17:28 | |
minutes, if I may. In my letter I
drew attention to the 79 million | 2:17:28 | 2:17:33 | |
discrepancy between the cash grant
and the estimate. The explanation is | 2:17:33 | 2:17:41 | |
perfectly satisfactory, but my
committee's scrutiny work would have | 2:17:41 | 2:17:44 | |
been greatly assisted by early
notification of that apparent | 2:17:44 | 2:17:48 | |
discrepancy. Be sure, we will
scrutinise this bill closely and the | 2:17:48 | 2:17:54 | |
figures it contains and the budget
when it appears. It is very | 2:17:54 | 2:17:59 | |
important if there are discrepancies
that those discrepancies are brought | 2:17:59 | 2:18:02 | |
to the attention of my committee, or
indeed the House, since scrutiny in | 2:18:02 | 2:18:07 | |
current circumstances in this place
is vitally important. Are we any | 2:18:07 | 2:18:12 | |
further in quantifying the cost of
systems envisioned under option two | 2:18:12 | 2:18:18 | |
of paragraph 49 in December's joint
report? If so, where and when will | 2:18:18 | 2:18:23 | |
they appear in the subsequent
estimates question but that is to | 2:18:23 | 2:18:28 | |
say, the costs that will be involved
in creating alternative solutions in | 2:18:28 | 2:18:32 | |
order to ensure that the border in
Northern Ireland is as frictionless | 2:18:32 | 2:18:38 | |
and seamless as possible. Those
costs are likely to be significant, | 2:18:38 | 2:18:42 | |
if indeed such a solution can be
created and it would be good to know | 2:18:42 | 2:18:47 | |
that sufficient budgetary
accommodation has been made for | 2:18:47 | 2:18:52 | |
them. On the 8th of March in her
written ministerial statement the | 2:18:52 | 2:18:58 | |
Secretary of State announced 100
million from capital resource. It is | 2:18:58 | 2:19:01 | |
uncommon. The Treasury dislikes and
very good reason, so why precisely | 2:19:01 | 2:19:05 | |
as it is unnecessary against a
relatively generous Northern Ireland | 2:19:05 | 2:19:09 | |
settlement this occasion, to
introduce a capitalisation? The | 2:19:09 | 2:19:14 | |
Treasury has made a rather unusual
call for evidence in a piece of work | 2:19:14 | 2:19:18 | |
it is doing an tourism. It wants
evidence and VAT, APD to support and | 2:19:18 | 2:19:26 | |
improved position for tourism in
Northern Ireland. I very much | 2:19:26 | 2:19:29 | |
welcomed that. My select committee
took evidence on the subject | 2:19:29 | 2:19:36 | |
recently and the Treasury
documentation refers to that. It | 2:19:36 | 2:19:38 | |
does seem to be an unusual
intervention. Indeed, since many of | 2:19:38 | 2:19:42 | |
the things that will help to be done
as a response to any such report of | 2:19:42 | 2:19:49 | |
the Treasury will be devolved. How
does the Secretary of State see that | 2:19:49 | 2:19:53 | |
work being carried forward? I'm sure
she'd like me would not wish the | 2:19:53 | 2:19:56 | |
Treasury to be embarked upon a piece
of work that was not at the end of | 2:19:56 | 2:20:00 | |
the day going to result in
recommendations that could be | 2:20:00 | 2:20:03 | |
carried forward. I imagine therefore
that she, in collaboration with the | 2:20:03 | 2:20:06 | |
Treasury, have worked out a pathway
between recommendations that may | 2:20:06 | 2:20:11 | |
come out of this piece of work and
how they are going to be implemented | 2:20:11 | 2:20:15 | |
and we can't necessarily assume, I'm
sure she doesn't, that we will have | 2:20:15 | 2:20:18 | |
an executive up and running within a
time frame that will be suitable for | 2:20:18 | 2:20:22 | |
this report. Of course I will.
Of course, the honourable member is | 2:20:22 | 2:20:30 | |
right, in respect of some of the
recommendations that may come out of | 2:20:30 | 2:20:34 | |
that report and whether ministers
responsible to this house or to the | 2:20:34 | 2:20:38 | |
assembly take those decisions as a
matter we will have to wait and see | 2:20:38 | 2:20:43 | |
what happens. In terms of the air
passenger duty and value-added tax, | 2:20:43 | 2:20:47 | |
the main purpose of having these
reports, those are matters that this | 2:20:47 | 2:20:51 | |
house. Those are matters for the
Chancellor and for the Treasury, | 2:20:51 | 2:20:56 | |
therefore the main purpose of the
report will be a matter for this | 2:20:56 | 2:20:59 | |
house.
But the call for evidence goes much | 2:20:59 | 2:21:04 | |
further than that and it isn't that
chiefly I am concerned about. It | 2:21:04 | 2:21:09 | |
does imply that competences will be
available in the event that there is | 2:21:09 | 2:21:12 | |
no executive in place that will
carry that, otherwise it would be a | 2:21:12 | 2:21:17 | |
fairly tight and narrow call for
evidence. | 2:21:17 | 2:21:21 | |
The Northern Ireland audit office
this year will report on a number of | 2:21:21 | 2:21:24 | |
things. It is a very, very busy
office and we were very pleased | 2:21:24 | 2:21:29 | |
indeed to be able to meet keirin
Dominique recently in Belfast for | 2:21:29 | 2:21:34 | |
evidence on the work of his
department. -- Mr Donnelly. It will | 2:21:34 | 2:21:40 | |
be reporting on digital
transformation in Northern Ireland, | 2:21:40 | 2:21:43 | |
welfare reform in Northern Ireland,
speeding up avoidable delays in the | 2:21:43 | 2:21:46 | |
justice system, financial health,
schools and social investment fund. | 2:21:46 | 2:21:51 | |
A lot of this has to do with
increasing productivity in Northern | 2:21:51 | 2:21:56 | |
Ireland and rebalancing the economy.
It is not discretionary work it is | 2:21:56 | 2:22:00 | |
of vital importance. It has to do
with achieving value for money. My | 2:22:00 | 2:22:04 | |
question really is, where will this
work is leading? Sent if there is | 2:22:04 | 2:22:10 | |
nobody to scrutinise the auditor,
let alone in a body to take forward | 2:22:10 | 2:22:19 | |
his recommendations, he may be
crying in the wilderness. It is a | 2:22:19 | 2:22:22 | |
bit of an irony that his work is
geared towards value for money, | 2:22:22 | 2:22:26 | |
since under those circumstances,
that is to say those recommendations | 2:22:26 | 2:22:29 | |
not being taken forward, some
question would be revolving around | 2:22:29 | 2:22:32 | |
the value for money posed by the
auditor himself. It would be very | 2:22:32 | 2:22:37 | |
useful to know what thought the
Secretary of State have about how | 2:22:37 | 2:22:41 | |
his reports can be properly examined
by perhaps a shadow PAC made up by | 2:22:41 | 2:22:51 | |
MLA members so some comments can be
made on those | 2:22:51 | 2:23:08 | |
I'd like to ask the Secretary of
State is a little bit about the | 2:23:08 | 2:23:13 | |
guidance she has recently offered
permanent secretaries and the state | 2:23:13 | 2:23:15 | |
of the guidance. On the 12th of
March, the Secretary of State in | 2:23:15 | 2:23:24 | |
answer to my question about budget
granularity city had a permanent | 2:23:24 | 2:23:28 | |
secretaries about her guidance on
how money should be spent, she cited | 2:23:28 | 2:23:34 | |
specifically health transformation
money as an example one such was | 2:23:34 | 2:23:36 | |
taking legal advice on the powers
that might be available to her. I | 2:23:36 | 2:23:41 | |
sympathise to her, dealing with
lawyers is a tricky business at the | 2:23:41 | 2:23:44 | |
best of times and this is I assume a
legal minefield and she will want to | 2:23:44 | 2:23:49 | |
make sure this is got right, not
least because if it goes wrong there | 2:23:49 | 2:23:55 | |
is every prospect of judicial
review. I know very well she won't | 2:23:55 | 2:23:58 | |
publish legal advice, but I wonder
if she could publish the guidance | 2:23:58 | 2:24:02 | |
that she has issued to permanent
secretaries because my select | 2:24:02 | 2:24:05 | |
committee and this House will want
to know what guidance she has | 2:24:05 | 2:24:11 | |
issued, the status of that guidance
and the extent to which permanent | 2:24:11 | 2:24:17 | |
secretaries will be acting upon it.
In the measure we had today in the | 2:24:17 | 2:24:21 | |
schedules, a whole raft of things
are listed with big sums of money | 2:24:21 | 2:24:25 | |
attached to them and it's important
to understand whether we are dealing | 2:24:25 | 2:24:31 | |
with governance by guidance or
whether in fact this is simply | 2:24:31 | 2:24:35 | |
helpful suggestions the permanent
Secretary may be guided by because | 2:24:35 | 2:24:39 | |
of course if he is judicially
reviewed at some point for decisions | 2:24:39 | 2:24:44 | |
made, the court will want to
determine what status that guidance | 2:24:44 | 2:24:48 | |
has and at the moment it appears to
me that that is obscure. It becomes | 2:24:48 | 2:24:54 | |
important in areas like
infrastructure, and in the schedules | 2:24:54 | 2:24:58 | |
to the bill we are discussing today,
very large sums of money are | 2:24:58 | 2:25:02 | |
attached to the Department for
infrastructure and we know the | 2:25:02 | 2:25:05 | |
Minister wishes to pass £400 million
for particular infrastructure | 2:25:05 | 2:25:12 | |
projects in connection with the
confidence and supply agreement, | 2:25:12 | 2:25:17 | |
particularly in two parts, £200
million in one financial year and | 2:25:17 | 2:25:22 | |
200 in another. It is not clear to
me what happens if within the time | 2:25:22 | 2:25:26 | |
frame of the agreement that money is
not spent, and the reason I ask that | 2:25:26 | 2:25:30 | |
is like most honourable and right
honourable members, the natural | 2:25:30 | 2:25:38 | |
tendency is for these things to run
and run. In the event the money is | 2:25:38 | 2:25:43 | |
not spent, does the money accrued to
the Treasury, is it spent on other | 2:25:43 | 2:25:48 | |
things, as it sit at Stormont
waiting for the glorious day of the | 2:25:48 | 2:25:52 | |
restoration of the executive, what
happens to those unspent funds. Can | 2:25:52 | 2:25:58 | |
we also know more about what
big-ticket items the Secretary of | 2:25:58 | 2:26:02 | |
State has in mind since the wish
list published by the executive | 2:26:02 | 2:26:05 | |
before the collapse of the executive
can't integrate or more than the | 2:26:05 | 2:26:09 | |
York Street interchange which the
Secretary of State has mentioned | 2:26:09 | 2:26:12 | |
recently her remarks. Does the
guidance issued for the permanent | 2:26:12 | 2:26:17 | |
Secretary of the Department for
infrastructure site perhaps in | 2:26:17 | 2:26:20 | |
priority order what things are
Secretary of State might think is | 2:26:20 | 2:26:23 | |
important, that which she is aware
is difficult because some of the | 2:26:23 | 2:26:29 | |
parties in Northern Ireland are not
keen on some of the projects and | 2:26:29 | 2:26:33 | |
rather see other things so it is
politically sensitive and it would | 2:26:33 | 2:26:36 | |
be good to know what guidance the
Secretary of State has issued to the | 2:26:36 | 2:26:41 | |
Department for infrastructure on
this important item of public | 2:26:41 | 2:26:44 | |
expenditure. Can I ask the Secretary
of State little bit about health | 2:26:44 | 2:26:50 | |
transformation, in relation to the
100 million in the confidence supply | 2:26:50 | 2:26:53 | |
agreement, it is most welcome, but
we have to understand what | 2:26:53 | 2:27:00 | |
transformation means. It isn't
simply about opening clinics or | 2:27:00 | 2:27:05 | |
hospitals, it's also about closing
them. Point me last week by the | 2:27:05 | 2:27:09 | |
honourable member for Pontypridd,
and he was right to make the point, | 2:27:09 | 2:27:12 | |
that there is nothing more political
in what we do than the opening and | 2:27:12 | 2:27:17 | |
closing of health care institutions.
I know that very well from my own | 2:27:17 | 2:27:24 | |
constituency experience. And as it
really reasonable to expect | 2:27:24 | 2:27:27 | |
permanent secretaries to be making
decisions of that sort? Indeed would | 2:27:27 | 2:27:31 | |
they make decisions of that sort?
And if they weren't the risk is then | 2:27:31 | 2:27:36 | |
go will be put on ice. Under those
circumstances everybody loses it | 2:27:36 | 2:27:44 | |
seems to me. One way forward with
the legal avenue in which the | 2:27:44 | 2:27:48 | |
Secretary of State can offer
guidance that will perhaps be a | 2:27:48 | 2:27:52 | |
little more prescriptive than might
otherwise be the case. We won't know | 2:27:52 | 2:27:57 | |
that in this place unless we have
sight of the guidance that has been | 2:27:57 | 2:28:00 | |
issued and are able to examine it.
Does the Secretary of State share my | 2:28:00 | 2:28:08 | |
concerns on policy drift and do
nothing becoming the default option? | 2:28:08 | 2:28:15 | |
The honourable lady the Member for
Vauxhall who is not in her place | 2:28:15 | 2:28:18 | |
gave a great example last week on
the decisions needed to secure the | 2:28:18 | 2:28:23 | |
Commonwealth youth games in 2021 and
I know my right honourable friend | 2:28:23 | 2:28:28 | |
because of her previous portfolio
experience in this matter is acutely | 2:28:28 | 2:28:32 | |
aware of the difficulties around
this. A number of decisions have to | 2:28:32 | 2:28:36 | |
be made around that and yet at the
moment there is nobody to make those | 2:28:36 | 2:28:40 | |
decisions. It's a poignant example
around why it is so necessary for | 2:28:40 | 2:28:45 | |
somebody, somewhere to be able to
make those sorts of decisions and I | 2:28:45 | 2:28:49 | |
know my right honourable friend was
recently in Londonderry. It just | 2:28:49 | 2:28:55 | |
happened she was visiting at the
same time as my select committee on | 2:28:55 | 2:28:58 | |
she will have learned from people in
that fine city how frustrated they | 2:28:58 | 2:29:03 | |
are that nobody appears to be making
any decisions right now. This goes | 2:29:03 | 2:29:09 | |
across community to regardless of
community I would say almost, people | 2:29:09 | 2:29:12 | |
just want things to happen. They see
society being pulled back and the | 2:29:12 | 2:29:22 | |
province has made so much progress
over the years in every conceivable | 2:29:22 | 2:29:29 | |
way, essentially marking time whilst
the executive gets its act together | 2:29:29 | 2:29:32 | |
and they will come a point where,
with a heavy heart and the greatest | 2:29:32 | 2:29:37 | |
of reluctance, ministers here will
have to start to make decisions. We | 2:29:37 | 2:29:41 | |
can all hope for a restoration of
the executive but we might be hoping | 2:29:41 | 2:29:46 | |
for a restoration of the executive
in three years' time. In three | 2:29:46 | 2:29:50 | |
years, the world will look very
different place. Bengoa will | 2:29:50 | 2:29:58 | |
probably have been forgotten. Some
of the infrastructure projects may | 2:29:58 | 2:30:02 | |
well have fallen by the wayside. All
of this good stuff will not have | 2:30:02 | 2:30:06 | |
happened and Northern Ireland will
have slipped further behind, in | 2:30:06 | 2:30:10 | |
every way imaginable. I think that
would be a huge failure and I know | 2:30:10 | 2:30:14 | |
the Secretary of State feels the
same way. The honourable gentleman | 2:30:14 | 2:30:20 | |
is absolutely 100% correct in what
he has just said and he's right to | 2:30:20 | 2:30:25 | |
point out that of course want
devolution and efforts must continue | 2:30:25 | 2:30:32 | |
to ensure that but in the meantime
there are community suffering as a | 2:30:32 | 2:30:39 | |
result of a lack of decision-making
and as he is rightly said, in the | 2:30:39 | 2:30:42 | |
meantime he must ensure decisions
are made for the good of everyone | 2:30:42 | 2:30:46 | |
and that is an extremely important
point which I'm sure the Secretary | 2:30:46 | 2:30:51 | |
of State will have heard very
clearly. The honourable gentleman is | 2:30:51 | 2:30:59 | |
absolutely correct. Can I finish my
remarks on the hard inquiry. | 2:30:59 | 2:31:05 | |
Honourable members are absolutely
right to mention this in connection | 2:31:05 | 2:31:08 | |
with the business before us today.
The programme for government offers | 2:31:08 | 2:31:13 | |
a very helpful pointer to ministers
who may otherwise feel not | 2:31:13 | 2:31:18 | |
particularly on safe ground in
relation to making decisions and the | 2:31:18 | 2:31:21 | |
Secretary of State and other
ministers say it provides some basis | 2:31:21 | 2:31:27 | |
on which they can take note of the
last expressed democratic view on a | 2:31:27 | 2:31:32 | |
number of issues. However, on the
12th of March at column 653 which | 2:31:32 | 2:31:39 | |
deals with the hard inquiry, the
Secretary of State suggested it is | 2:31:39 | 2:31:44 | |
not the business of UK ministers or
this place to consider | 2:31:44 | 2:31:48 | |
recommendations of bodies set up by
the executive, let alone implement | 2:31:48 | 2:31:53 | |
them and she's repeated those
sentiments today. It would be | 2:31:53 | 2:31:56 | |
helpful just to have a bit of
clarification because I fear we | 2:31:56 | 2:31:59 | |
cannot have it both ways. We either
observe what previous democratically | 2:31:59 | 2:32:04 | |
elected bodies have determined
before they crumbled or we don't and | 2:32:04 | 2:32:09 | |
that extends to any bodies they may
have established. I think it's an | 2:32:09 | 2:32:13 | |
important principle because it seems
to me that it is legitimate to take | 2:32:13 | 2:32:16 | |
note of decisions previously made
and the clear will of those bodies, | 2:32:16 | 2:32:23 | |
particularly if there is no great
controversy around them and I think | 2:32:23 | 2:32:27 | |
it would be useful if the Secretary
of State could clarify this point so | 2:32:27 | 2:32:31 | |
we are a little bit clear going
forward as to what we can rely upon | 2:32:31 | 2:32:35 | |
and indeed what she will be relying
upon in making any decisions and | 2:32:35 | 2:32:40 | |
indeed issuing any guidance she
might wish to reflect upon. Of | 2:32:40 | 2:32:47 | |
course I will, just before I was
about to sit down. I commend my | 2:32:47 | 2:32:53 | |
honourable friend for his work and
the work of his committee but would | 2:32:53 | 2:32:55 | |
he acknowledge one of the challenges
is there are no recommendations that | 2:32:55 | 2:32:59 | |
have been agreed by the outgoing
executive which obviously makes the | 2:32:59 | 2:33:04 | |
job of the Secretary of State in
determining the right way forward | 2:33:04 | 2:33:09 | |
into this hugely sensitive issue of
the hard inquiry, the | 2:33:09 | 2:33:12 | |
recommendations that it has sought
to bring forward, extremely | 2:33:12 | 2:33:15 | |
difficult and why she needs to think
carefully in terms of how best to | 2:33:15 | 2:33:21 | |
assess the right way forward. My
right honourable friend is | 2:33:21 | 2:33:26 | |
absolutely right but if you read
Hansard from last week you will see | 2:33:26 | 2:33:30 | |
the argument extended not just to
decisions may -- made by the | 2:33:30 | 2:33:42 | |
Assembly but also the hard inquiry
on the issue is whether we are | 2:33:42 | 2:33:46 | |
guided by the recommendations made
by those organisations or not and | 2:33:46 | 2:33:53 | |
particularly if there appears to be
generally cross-party cross | 2:33:53 | 2:34:00 | |
community acceptance of those
recommendations and findings. It's | 2:34:00 | 2:34:06 | |
the best we have to work on the
question really is whether we are | 2:34:06 | 2:34:11 | |
guided by what happened before the
collapse of the executive or we are | 2:34:11 | 2:34:16 | |
not. I don't think we can easily be
selective. Firstly can I start by | 2:34:16 | 2:34:31 | |
echoing the comments about the
recent 25th anniversary | 2:34:31 | 2:34:35 | |
commemoration of a truly terrible
event and I thank him for making | 2:34:35 | 2:34:38 | |
that point. Why tall are taking
decisions that should rightly be | 2:34:38 | 2:34:50 | |
taken in Belfast. I take the
opportunity to repeat the decision | 2:34:50 | 2:34:55 | |
that policy decisions should be
taken by ministers and the devolved | 2:34:55 | 2:34:59 | |
administrations rather than in
Whitehall. Unfortunately there are | 2:34:59 | 2:35:03 | |
no ministers in the Stormont
administration so I find myself in | 2:35:03 | 2:35:07 | |
reluctant agreement with the
Secretary of State that legislation | 2:35:07 | 2:35:09 | |
must be passed here which will allow
public services to operate in | 2:35:09 | 2:35:12 | |
Northern Ireland. I have to say
though, the parties elected to | 2:35:12 | 2:35:18 | |
Stormont have failed the people who
have put the trust in them and | 2:35:18 | 2:35:23 | |
loaned them their votes. Plenty of
excuses are being offered, posturing | 2:35:23 | 2:35:27 | |
has been done but nobody has come
out of negotiations with credit and | 2:35:27 | 2:35:31 | |
the fact Stormont is still in
suspended animation is a disgrace. | 2:35:31 | 2:35:40 | |
People risked their huge amount to
pursue peace. It is to be hoped the | 2:35:40 | 2:35:45 | |
current set of politicians in
Northern Ireland find the strength | 2:35:45 | 2:35:48 | |
and the humility to get themselves
back to the negotiating table to | 2:35:48 | 2:35:52 | |
thrash out a deal and restart the
Assembly so the budgets don't have | 2:35:52 | 2:35:56 | |
to be passed here in the future. No
matter what the reasons or excuses | 2:35:56 | 2:36:00 | |
for the current position, that is
the least effective should be | 2:36:00 | 2:36:06 | |
entitled to expect. Turning to the
bill itself, can I thank the | 2:36:06 | 2:36:10 | |
Secretary of State for providing it
yesterday afternoon, it's always | 2:36:10 | 2:36:13 | |
good to have sight of legislation
before it starts its progress. I'd | 2:36:13 | 2:36:18 | |
like to take just a few moments to
talk about the rational behind us | 2:36:18 | 2:36:22 | |
tracking as laid out in the
explanatory notes. I accept there | 2:36:22 | 2:36:26 | |
should be no further delay. I
acknowledge there is a need to allow | 2:36:26 | 2:36:32 | |
continued spending on public
services and I of course appreciate | 2:36:32 | 2:36:35 | |
confidence in the supply is
important. I find it difficult | 2:36:35 | 2:36:39 | |
however to accept the delay we have
witnessed so far. I will quote | 2:36:39 | 2:36:45 | |
paragraph in the Explorer in the
true notes for -- in the explanatory | 2:36:45 | 2:36:55 | |
notes for clarity. The need for this
bill arises from the lack of an | 2:36:55 | 2:36:59 | |
agreement and the appointment of an
executive within the timescale | 2:36:59 | 2:37:02 | |
required for a budget bill to be
brought through the Northern Ireland | 2:37:02 | 2:37:06 | |
Assembly. It's taken forward at the
latest possible points before the | 2:37:06 | 2:37:10 | |
risk to public services could
manifest. It's not been possible to | 2:37:10 | 2:37:14 | |
give Parliament more time to
scrutinise this bill without risking | 2:37:14 | 2:37:17 | |
the delivery of public services in
Northern Ireland or distracting from | 2:37:17 | 2:37:22 | |
and undermining the talks aimed at
restoring an executive. | 2:37:22 | 2:37:28 | |
We have watched this situation
grinding on for a long time now. We | 2:37:29 | 2:37:31 | |
haven't been kept in the dark by
issues real fabricated and we knew | 2:37:31 | 2:37:37 | |
it was likely we were trundling
towards this point. This | 2:37:37 | 2:37:41 | |
legislation, in my view, should have
been prepared and started in good | 2:37:41 | 2:37:44 | |
time for it to be considered
properly. It could have been | 2:37:44 | 2:37:47 | |
abandoned if agreement had been
reached. I can't accept the progress | 2:37:47 | 2:37:50 | |
of the budget bill would distract
from or undermined the talks aimed | 2:37:50 | 2:37:55 | |
at restoring power-sharing and
getting ministers in place. It might | 2:37:55 | 2:37:59 | |
well have focused attention and
sharpened the negotiations. The | 2:37:59 | 2:38:04 | |
Secretary of State, to be fair, is
not long in the job, a couple of | 2:38:04 | 2:38:06 | |
months, but I think this should have
been foreseen and her or her | 2:38:06 | 2:38:10 | |
predecessor should have started the
process. The drafting could have | 2:38:10 | 2:38:13 | |
started without compromising
anything. That said, we have arrived | 2:38:13 | 2:38:16 | |
at this point and we have to deal
with the situation we have, rather | 2:38:16 | 2:38:19 | |
than the situation we would have
preferred to have had. We have to | 2:38:19 | 2:38:23 | |
provide the civil servants in
Belfast with the resources they need | 2:38:23 | 2:38:26 | |
to do their job properly and the
public servants across Northern | 2:38:26 | 2:38:33 | |
Ireland some certainty about the
funding they need to continue | 2:38:33 | 2:38:35 | |
operating. Literally, in some cases.
I offer no amendment to this bill | 2:38:35 | 2:38:38 | |
nor seek to impede its progress. I
will accept it on the recommendation | 2:38:38 | 2:38:46 | |
of the head of the civil service in
conjunction with the Northern | 2:38:46 | 2:38:49 | |
Ireland civil service board. Their
knowledge of what is likely to be | 2:38:49 | 2:38:52 | |
needed on the ground over the next
financial year I think will outweigh | 2:38:52 | 2:38:56 | |
any considerations that members here
might have. The challenges that will | 2:38:56 | 2:39:00 | |
lie ahead for them in the near
future will be large, I do not envy | 2:39:00 | 2:39:05 | |
them their tasks. As I said earlier,
these decisions would be better | 2:39:05 | 2:39:11 | |
taken by politicians are elected by
that purpose by the people who will | 2:39:11 | 2:39:14 | |
be affected by these decisions and
is to be hoped, devoutly hoped, that | 2:39:14 | 2:39:18 | |
this will be the last budget for
Northern Ireland that gets set here. | 2:39:18 | 2:39:22 | |
I urge all sides in the negotiations
over power-sharing to get back to | 2:39:22 | 2:39:26 | |
the table and find a resolution. In
the meantime, this bill should be | 2:39:26 | 2:39:31 | |
approved for the sake of keeping the
lights and the heating and for | 2:39:31 | 2:39:35 | |
public services.
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can | 2:39:35 | 2:39:41 | |
I start with an observation? It is
interesting the way we are talking | 2:39:41 | 2:39:46 | |
about Northern Ireland in this place
and Brexit, that the benches are | 2:39:46 | 2:39:50 | |
absolutely heaving and yet when we
are talking about the budget for | 2:39:50 | 2:39:53 | |
Northern Ireland, which is making a
real impact on the day to day lives | 2:39:53 | 2:39:56 | |
of the people in Northern Ireland
right now, the benches are less | 2:39:56 | 2:39:59 | |
fault. So I welcome the bill. Having
served on the Northern Ireland | 2:39:59 | 2:40:05 | |
affairs committee, and I have heard
first-hand from some of the | 2:40:05 | 2:40:09 | |
witnesses who came and attended how
difficult life has been for people | 2:40:09 | 2:40:13 | |
in Northern Ireland without a budget
being in place. We heard from the | 2:40:13 | 2:40:16 | |
Chief Constable of the PSN I how
even in ordinary times life is | 2:40:16 | 2:40:21 | |
difficult in the public sector, but
when you are working to a budget | 2:40:21 | 2:40:25 | |
that has not been set, it is almost
impossible, and he explained how | 2:40:25 | 2:40:28 | |
they were -- there were days, weeks
or months where he did not know if | 2:40:28 | 2:40:33 | |
he had the money to pay his
officers. That is an unacceptable | 2:40:33 | 2:40:37 | |
place to be.
We also heard from the business | 2:40:37 | 2:40:40 | |
community in Northern Ireland in the
affairs committee around the | 2:40:40 | 2:40:45 | |
difficulties that not having an
assembly, not having a budget, not | 2:40:45 | 2:40:48 | |
having an executive was putting on
them. They gave a good example of | 2:40:48 | 2:40:52 | |
the apprenticeship levy, where
businesses are paying into it but | 2:40:52 | 2:40:56 | |
because there is no budget in place,
they have no access to the funds and | 2:40:56 | 2:41:01 | |
apprenticeships in Northern Ireland
are hugely at risk. This, for a part | 2:41:01 | 2:41:05 | |
of the United Kingdom where
apprenticeships are needed for all | 2:41:05 | 2:41:09 | |
communities more than ever, and
businesses are finding because of a | 2:41:09 | 2:41:13 | |
lack of a budget that that
apprenticeship levy is falling into | 2:41:13 | 2:41:19 | |
a type of additional taxation for
them. | 2:41:19 | 2:41:21 | |
Having met the charities in Northern
Ireland, particularly Addiction | 2:41:21 | 2:41:26 | |
Northern Ireland, working with
people trying to combat alcohol and | 2:41:26 | 2:41:29 | |
drug addiction, not having a budget
in place is having a huge impact on | 2:41:29 | 2:41:33 | |
their ability not to provide an
immediate service said much, but to | 2:41:33 | 2:41:37 | |
plan long-term. These are difficult
times for charities and not knowing | 2:41:37 | 2:41:40 | |
where the next pennies are coming
from and what direction they | 2:41:40 | 2:41:45 | |
Northern Ireland government would be
going in makes it almost impossible. | 2:41:45 | 2:41:49 | |
Then we have the Belfast city deal,
announced in the UK's budget late | 2:41:49 | 2:41:55 | |
last year, but which is going
absolutely nowhere as far as I know. | 2:41:55 | 2:41:59 | |
Which is an opportunity for Belfast
to build on its infrastructure, | 2:41:59 | 2:42:03 | |
creates jobs, help... I will give
way. | 2:42:03 | 2:42:11 | |
I thank the honourable lady for
giving way. Can I assure her that | 2:42:11 | 2:42:17 | |
the Belfast City deal is going
forward, that is being led by a | 2:42:17 | 2:42:23 | |
consortium of the local councils.
Belfast City Council, Antrim | 2:42:23 | 2:42:27 | |
Newtownabbey and some others. And
Middle East and from. So the absence | 2:42:27 | 2:42:35 | |
of a devolved government is not in
any way inhibiting the progress with | 2:42:35 | 2:42:41 | |
the City deal, that is directly
between central government and local | 2:42:41 | 2:42:45 | |
government in Northern Ireland.
I am very pleased to hear that | 2:42:45 | 2:42:49 | |
because it is a huge opportunity for
Belfast, but a huge opportunity for | 2:42:49 | 2:42:53 | |
Northern Ireland and if it works
well in Belfast, could be a huge | 2:42:53 | 2:42:56 | |
opportunity for other parts of
Northern Ireland in the future. So I | 2:42:56 | 2:42:59 | |
am extremely pleased to hear that.
So there is a huge impact in not | 2:42:59 | 2:43:04 | |
having a budget set for this
financial year, but I am greatly | 2:43:04 | 2:43:09 | |
concerned that we do not have a
budget for the next financial year | 2:43:09 | 2:43:13 | |
because we have heard time and time
again how difficult it has been for | 2:43:13 | 2:43:16 | |
the charity sector, public services,
for businesses. This constant | 2:43:16 | 2:43:21 | |
uncertainty, a bit like the
uncertainty around Brexit, is just | 2:43:21 | 2:43:23 | |
not feasible for the long-term. I
will give way. | 2:43:23 | 2:43:29 | |
I appreciate the point the member is
making, but we should be totally | 2:43:29 | 2:43:33 | |
pessimistic. Unemployment is the
lowest it's been a Northern Ireland, | 2:43:33 | 2:43:40 | |
3.9%, exports are up. We are not the
only region of the world that from | 2:43:40 | 2:43:46 | |
time to time doesn't have a stable
government. Indeed, Germany didn't | 2:43:46 | 2:43:49 | |
have a government first several
months earlier this year. | 2:43:49 | 2:43:53 | |
I thank the honourable gentleman. He
makes a valid point, but this... I | 2:43:53 | 2:43:57 | |
have heard him say himself, Madam
Deputy Speaker, that he wants some | 2:43:57 | 2:44:04 | |
certainty and some direction of
travel. It isn't just about setting | 2:44:04 | 2:44:07 | |
the budget, it's about the scrutiny
about how that money is going to be | 2:44:07 | 2:44:11 | |
spent, because the civil servants in
Northern Ireland are doing a | 2:44:11 | 2:44:14 | |
fantastic job. I think we are all
putting on record to date our thanks | 2:44:14 | 2:44:19 | |
to their dedication and hard work,
but there does need to beat | 2:44:19 | 2:44:23 | |
political decisions about how that
money is allocated and there does | 2:44:23 | 2:44:27 | |
need to be political scrutiny about
how that money is being spent. So I | 2:44:27 | 2:44:30 | |
do agree with my friend the
honourable member for South West | 2:44:30 | 2:44:35 | |
Wiltshire when he said currently
there is a sense of Northern Ireland | 2:44:35 | 2:44:39 | |
treading water and standing still,
and actually the good work that is | 2:44:39 | 2:44:43 | |
being done in reducing unemployment
and creating jobs, the great Place | 2:44:43 | 2:44:49 | |
Northern Ireland is is down to the
hard work of people in the councils, | 2:44:49 | 2:44:57 | |
elected members at council level who
are continuing on, despite their not | 2:44:57 | 2:45:01 | |
being an assembly or an executive,
and the civil servants. But so much | 2:45:01 | 2:45:06 | |
more could be achieved if there was
an executive in place. So I have | 2:45:06 | 2:45:10 | |
three asks of the ministers, because
I don't want to be a pessimist and I | 2:45:10 | 2:45:17 | |
hope I am not sounding too
pessimistic but I don't think there | 2:45:17 | 2:45:20 | |
is honestly a realistic possibility
the assembly being re-formed just in | 2:45:20 | 2:45:24 | |
the next few months. There does need
to be serious consideration about | 2:45:24 | 2:45:33 | |
the impact of not having a long-term
budget for the next financial year. | 2:45:33 | 2:45:37 | |
So, for the first ask, if there are
members who will not get background | 2:45:37 | 2:45:42 | |
that table and restore an assembly,
could an assembly be restored with | 2:45:42 | 2:45:46 | |
those who are willing to do that?
And as is the case in this place, if | 2:45:46 | 2:45:51 | |
MLAs choose not to get on that
table, that is a personal decision | 2:45:51 | 2:45:55 | |
for them. Is there a possibility of
setting a budget for the next | 2:45:55 | 2:45:59 | |
financial year, not just the first
few months, so that public sectors | 2:45:59 | 2:46:03 | |
like the PSNI and charities such as
Addiction Northern Ireland, such as | 2:46:03 | 2:46:09 | |
communities who really desperately
need to know the direction of travel | 2:46:09 | 2:46:11 | |
for their funding at some certainty?
And, as was said by the honourable | 2:46:11 | 2:46:17 | |
member for Edinburgh and Leith, that
budget could be set and abandoned if | 2:46:17 | 2:46:21 | |
an assembly suddenly came back to
being. | 2:46:21 | 2:46:25 | |
My third ask if could the Northern
Ireland affairs committee be given | 2:46:25 | 2:46:28 | |
some sort of task and authority to
scrutinise out that spending is | 2:46:28 | 2:46:35 | |
currently happening? Because without
any scrutiny whatsoever, are we | 2:46:35 | 2:46:40 | |
really sure that the money is being
spent in the best interests of the | 2:46:40 | 2:46:46 | |
people of Northern Ireland weather
do welcome bill today, it is much | 2:46:46 | 2:46:49 | |
needed but there is still a huge
amount of work to do. I want to put | 2:46:49 | 2:46:54 | |
on record my congratulations and
thanks to the Secretary of work to | 2:46:54 | 2:46:57 | |
do. I want to put on record my
congratulations and thanks was doing | 2:46:57 | 2:47:00 | |
so much to try make progress happen.
These are difficult circumstances. | 2:47:00 | 2:47:02 | |
None of us want to be here passing
this bill. It is unnecessary | 2:47:02 | 2:47:06 | |
necessity, but there is still so
much work to be done. | 2:47:06 | 2:47:12 | |
Thank you. Can I may be just
personable start by making something | 2:47:12 | 2:47:20 | |
clear about this debate? It is a
technical debate, and I have to say, | 2:47:20 | 2:47:28 | |
the misconceptions which have been
in the chamber from some speakers | 2:47:28 | 2:47:31 | |
today are not uncommon, because as a
member for North Belfast will know, | 2:47:31 | 2:47:39 | |
when we were in the Northern Ireland
assembly and in the Department of | 2:47:39 | 2:47:43 | |
Finance job, very often this debate
degenerated into a budget debate, | 2:47:43 | 2:47:48 | |
where people came forward with all
the things they wanted to spend | 2:47:48 | 2:47:53 | |
money on, when in actual fact it was
nothing to do with setting a budget. | 2:47:53 | 2:47:57 | |
It was a misconception which the
Shadow Secretary of State fell into. | 2:47:57 | 2:48:03 | |
I don't want to go through all of
his mistakes. He talked about this | 2:48:03 | 2:48:08 | |
being a pretty poor way of dealing
with above it. We are not actually | 2:48:08 | 2:48:12 | |
dealing with the budget, and, of
course, this would have been an | 2:48:12 | 2:48:15 | |
essential step even if it had been
in the Northern Ireland assembly. | 2:48:15 | 2:48:21 | |
Also he talked about these general
headings and how it hadn't changed, | 2:48:21 | 2:48:24 | |
and of course quite right, unless
you change the remit of the | 2:48:24 | 2:48:30 | |
department you would not change the
kind of headings of expenditure. | 2:48:30 | 2:48:35 | |
Though there are significant points
that need to be addressed in the | 2:48:35 | 2:48:38 | |
future by the Secretary of State. So
this debate is really about first of | 2:48:38 | 2:48:44 | |
all, how did departments spend their
money last year? And, of course, as | 2:48:44 | 2:48:50 | |
these figures will show, some of
them spent more than what was | 2:48:50 | 2:48:56 | |
originally allocated. Some spent
significantly less than what was | 2:48:56 | 2:49:00 | |
originally allocated, for example
spent over a third less than what | 2:49:00 | 2:49:03 | |
had been originally allocated.
Though I note that this year it is | 2:49:03 | 2:49:08 | |
going to be allocated the same
amount of money as it was given last | 2:49:08 | 2:49:12 | |
year, even though it underspent by
third. Maybe the Secretary of State | 2:49:12 | 2:49:17 | |
can tell us why that decision was
made when there was such a high | 2:49:17 | 2:49:21 | |
underspend. So it looks back at the
past. What was allocated, what was | 2:49:21 | 2:49:29 | |
spent, what additional money had to
be given to some departments, for | 2:49:29 | 2:49:34 | |
example health and education, and
where did that money come from? It | 2:49:34 | 2:49:39 | |
came from some departments which
underspent. And, of course, that | 2:49:39 | 2:49:44 | |
additional expenditure or that
reduction in expenditure has to be | 2:49:44 | 2:49:48 | |
authorised. This is what this
particular bill is doing. Then, | 2:49:48 | 2:49:52 | |
looking forward, a budget actually
has been set for Northern Ireland. | 2:49:52 | 2:50:01 | |
The Secretary of State did that a
couple of weeks ago. Each department | 2:50:01 | 2:50:04 | |
knows at -- its expenditure limits
the next year but until a budget | 2:50:04 | 2:50:12 | |
bill goes through, and that will
take some time, department up to | 2:50:12 | 2:50:15 | |
have legal authority to spend up
until the time that that bill goes | 2:50:15 | 2:50:21 | |
through. Hence the reason why 45% of
the budget is allocated in this | 2:50:21 | 2:50:27 | |
particular bill, so that departments
can, with confidence, spend as they | 2:50:27 | 2:50:35 | |
know how much money is available to
them and they know the kind of | 2:50:35 | 2:50:40 | |
limits within which they have to
spend the money. So I think it's | 2:50:40 | 2:50:45 | |
important that we can understand
what we are actually debating here | 2:50:45 | 2:50:49 | |
today. This is not about, well you
should have given more money to the | 2:50:49 | 2:50:56 | |
Department for Education. Or the
Department for Education should be | 2:50:56 | 2:50:59 | |
spending money on this, or the
inquiry should have more money | 2:50:59 | 2:51:02 | |
allocated to it. Those are
decisions... Though having said and | 2:51:02 | 2:51:07 | |
having raised those issues, the
members who did raise those issues | 2:51:07 | 2:51:11 | |
have illustrated a very important
point, which the Secretary of State | 2:51:11 | 2:51:17 | |
needs to address. That is that
simply giving departments the | 2:51:17 | 2:51:22 | |
information about the amount of
money which they are going to have | 2:51:22 | 2:51:26 | |
available to them next year does not
give them the ability to spend that | 2:51:26 | 2:51:32 | |
money, because there are some things
which civil servants are going to | 2:51:32 | 2:51:37 | |
need direction about. So having
taken the first step, that the | 2:51:37 | 2:51:43 | |
Secretary of State has taken, namely
selling the -- setting departmental | 2:51:43 | 2:51:52 | |
budget limits, giving us the
statement, now going through this | 2:51:52 | 2:51:55 | |
Bill, which authorises expenditure
last year, which is historical, but | 2:51:55 | 2:52:01 | |
giving some money to start off next
year, the big important step and the | 2:52:01 | 2:52:05 | |
big important political step is that
in the absence of an assembly, when | 2:52:05 | 2:52:13 | |
is she going to then either give
permanent secretaries more power, or | 2:52:13 | 2:52:22 | |
have ministers take responsibility
for spending the money which is | 2:52:22 | 2:52:26 | |
actually allocated? We can bore the
House without this afternoon, but | 2:52:26 | 2:52:32 | |
let me take one example of the
Department of the economy. | 2:52:32 | 2:52:34 | |
Here are some of the things listed
the Department of economy will get, | 2:52:38 | 2:52:43 | |
roughly 1000 million pounds and some
of that will be spent on air access. | 2:52:43 | 2:52:49 | |
If we want to authorise new routes,
that is going to require a | 2:52:49 | 2:52:54 | |
ministerial decision, no civil
servant will do that. It's going to | 2:52:54 | 2:52:59 | |
have to develop regulatory reform on
minerals and petroleum licensing. We | 2:52:59 | 2:53:08 | |
are sitting on one of the most
lucrative gold mines not in Europe | 2:53:08 | 2:53:17 | |
but in the world. There are issues
around it and they will not be | 2:53:17 | 2:53:20 | |
resolved by civil servants. There
are hundreds of jobs in the west of | 2:53:20 | 2:53:34 | |
the province where our role in
employment is difficult to obtain | 2:53:34 | 2:53:38 | |
but to make decisions about that
it's not enough to simply say to the | 2:53:38 | 2:53:44 | |
Department of the economy there is a
thousand million pounds. Decisions | 2:53:44 | 2:53:48 | |
have to be made about and direction
has to be given as to the | 2:53:48 | 2:53:54 | |
development of the regulations and
decisions where controversies are | 2:53:54 | 2:53:58 | |
going to arise. Assistance of the
gas and electricity industries, | 2:53:58 | 2:54:05 | |
particularly relevant to my own
constituency. As a result of the | 2:54:05 | 2:54:14 | |
auction, a power station is likely
to close, supplying on occasions 45% | 2:54:14 | 2:54:19 | |
of the power to Northern Ireland.
And a decision has to be made | 2:54:19 | 2:54:26 | |
because the regulator wants it kept
open for three years but there is no | 2:54:26 | 2:54:30 | |
guarantee it will sell one kilowatt
of electricity, and quite rightly | 2:54:30 | 2:54:35 | |
the owners are saying we are not
going to keep it open for three | 2:54:35 | 2:54:38 | |
years if we are not guaranteed any
seals -- any sales. | 2:54:38 | 2:54:49 | |
Telecommunications infrastructure,
it's not included in this bill but | 2:54:49 | 2:54:55 | |
there has been £150 million
allocated for infrastructure and | 2:54:55 | 2:55:01 | |
broadband in Northern Ireland. But
again, the decisions will require | 2:55:01 | 2:55:08 | |
ministerial direction. We give 60%
or 40% of the budget, yet here we | 2:55:08 | 2:55:24 | |
have a cross-border body. Is it
advertising and promoting tourism in | 2:55:24 | 2:55:31 | |
Northern Ireland? No, tourism in the
Irish Republic. The ministerial | 2:55:31 | 2:55:36 | |
decision is do we continue to spend
money to the amount we do on a | 2:55:36 | 2:55:40 | |
cross-border body like that when it
is to the detriment of Northern | 2:55:40 | 2:55:45 | |
Ireland? Is the member saying very
clearly to the House the Secretary | 2:55:45 | 2:55:55 | |
of State should make those
ministerial decisions or that she | 2:55:55 | 2:55:59 | |
should appoint other ministers from
here to make those decisions? | 2:55:59 | 2:56:06 | |
I'm only taking at random through
one department you can do the same | 2:56:06 | 2:56:13 | |
with every other department. When it
comes to spending the money, the | 2:56:13 | 2:56:24 | |
Secretary of State has a
combination. We need a mechanism, | 2:56:24 | 2:56:41 | |
which will require intervention.
Otherwise we will find that the | 2:56:41 | 2:56:46 | |
departments receive the money and be
either continue to spend it as they | 2:56:46 | 2:56:51 | |
are doing at present without any
policy development, without looking | 2:56:51 | 2:56:55 | |
at the changes which have occurred
in Northern Ireland, changes in | 2:56:55 | 2:57:01 | |
situations, and then undertake to
spend the money in that particular | 2:57:01 | 2:57:04 | |
direction. Thank you, Mr Deputy
Speaker. There are actually three | 2:57:04 | 2:57:15 | |
options, the third option is we all
want to see and that the DUP getting | 2:57:15 | 2:57:20 | |
back into talks with Sinn Fein to
establish the executive and the | 2:57:20 | 2:57:24 | |
Assembly. So what exactly is holding
up the DUP? Let me comment because | 2:57:24 | 2:57:32 | |
that is where I was wanting to go
to. Unfortunately the decisions we | 2:57:32 | 2:57:41 | |
have had to date, a budget statement
two weeks ago, in Northern Ireland | 2:57:41 | 2:57:50 | |
budget anticipation and adjustments
bill, and a full budget bill | 2:57:50 | 2:57:54 | |
probably in June is the inevitable
consequence not of reluctance by the | 2:57:54 | 2:58:02 | |
DUP to do the work which is
required. From the day the election | 2:58:02 | 2:58:07 | |
was held last year, the very next
morning we were saying let's get | 2:58:07 | 2:58:14 | |
back into Stormont on let's do these
things. We didn't lay down any | 2:58:14 | 2:58:19 | |
conditions. Sinn Fein laid down
conditions which fell nothing short | 2:58:19 | 2:58:27 | |
of blackmail. Blackmail insofar as
they make demands for things which | 2:58:27 | 2:58:33 | |
the new have they gone into an
Assembly and asked for some of the | 2:58:33 | 2:58:36 | |
things which they had asked for in
talks, they would never have got | 2:58:36 | 2:58:41 | |
through the Assembly. They could
never have persuaded of the parties, | 2:58:41 | 2:58:44 | |
even when it came to Irish language,
they could never have persuaded the | 2:58:44 | 2:58:47 | |
other parties must of whom they have
said are sympathetic, they could | 2:58:47 | 2:58:53 | |
never have persuaded those parties
to give them the kind of Irish | 2:58:53 | 2:58:57 | |
language bill they wanted so they
made a decision - let's not go back | 2:58:57 | 2:59:01 | |
into the Assembly until we have been
given an assurance that there will | 2:59:01 | 2:59:09 | |
be delivered as a price of us going
into the Assembly something we could | 2:59:09 | 2:59:13 | |
never have negotiated, we couldn't
have debated, we could never have | 2:59:13 | 2:59:17 | |
argued for, we could never have
persuaded anybody to give us had we | 2:59:17 | 2:59:22 | |
been using the Assembly mechanism. I
know the lady from North Down | 2:59:22 | 2:59:28 | |
continually tries to share the blame
on this but let me make something | 2:59:28 | 2:59:32 | |
clear. The reason why we have this
debate here today is not because of | 2:59:32 | 2:59:39 | |
any reluctance on behalf of my
party, it is because we will not | 2:59:39 | 2:59:43 | |
give into the of blackmail that we
have experienced by Sinn Fein. Then | 2:59:43 | 2:59:50 | |
of course they make it even more
difficult because they create such a | 2:59:50 | 2:59:56 | |
toxic atmosphere in Northern Ireland
that even if you were daft enough to | 2:59:56 | 3:00:00 | |
give them what they wanted, you
would have been pilloried for it. | 3:00:00 | 3:00:06 | |
When you have for example an MP
elected to this House but not | 3:00:06 | 3:00:13 | |
attending, dancing around a garage
at midnight, mocking the victims of | 3:00:13 | 3:00:20 | |
IRA terrorism, people who were taken
out by a minibus on their way home | 3:00:20 | 3:00:25 | |
and gunned down, and then you say we
want to sit down and talk to you | 3:00:25 | 3:00:29 | |
about the way forward and about
respect. And when you have the | 3:00:29 | 3:00:34 | |
former finance minister of the
Assembly doing the same, then of | 3:00:34 | 3:00:39 | |
course it's impossible to reach the
kind of agreement that would get us | 3:00:39 | 3:00:52 | |
back into an Assembly and for that
reason we welcome the fact she has | 3:00:52 | 3:00:55 | |
acted. She hasn't been tardy in this
because had this bill being | 3:00:55 | 3:01:03 | |
presented to the Assembly, it would
have been presented around this time | 3:01:03 | 3:01:08 | |
of the year anyway. Some poor
finance minister in the Assembly | 3:01:08 | 3:01:11 | |
would have been standing up and
would have probably endured, and I | 3:01:11 | 3:01:20 | |
use the words deliberately, probably
have endured a six hour debate about | 3:01:20 | 3:01:23 | |
what should be in the budget and
would be gnashing his teeth and | 3:01:23 | 3:01:28 | |
continually reminding the Speaker
this is not what the debate is | 3:01:28 | 3:01:32 | |
about, and members would have
ignored him or her and continued to | 3:01:32 | 3:01:37 | |
talk about it anyway. If this had
been brought forward earlier, we | 3:01:37 | 3:01:46 | |
would not have known how much
departments would have been | 3:01:46 | 3:01:53 | |
underspent or overspent. This is as
close to the end of the year as we | 3:01:53 | 3:01:57 | |
can possibly get and when it comes
to June the final accounts will be | 3:01:57 | 3:02:00 | |
made available so we will know that
if there had been changes in the | 3:02:00 | 3:02:03 | |
last couple of weeks of the month
and adjustments to be made, they can | 3:02:03 | 3:02:07 | |
be reflected in the figures which
are given. Thank you, again. The | 3:02:07 | 3:02:22 | |
honourable gentleman has painted a
bleak picture sadly about the | 3:02:22 | 3:02:25 | |
prospects for the restoration of a
devolved Assembly and an executive | 3:02:25 | 3:02:30 | |
this side of the summer. That being
the case, what the right honourable | 3:02:30 | 3:02:34 | |
gentleman confirm on the record for
the victims of historical | 3:02:34 | 3:02:42 | |
institutional abuse, that it will be
an order for the Secretary of State | 3:02:42 | 3:02:48 | |
to implement the Hart proposals?
These victims are elderly and infirm | 3:02:48 | 3:02:57 | |
and many don't suffer good health.
It should be intolerable that they | 3:02:57 | 3:03:02 | |
be kept like this. That would be a
matter for the Secretary of State, | 3:03:02 | 3:03:07 | |
though I think it has been pointed
out regularly during this debate, | 3:03:07 | 3:03:13 | |
one of the considerations she should
be making when coming to that | 3:03:13 | 3:03:17 | |
decision is whether or not some of
those institutions which at least | 3:03:17 | 3:03:21 | |
turned a blind eye to the abuse
should also be held culpable and | 3:03:21 | 3:03:27 | |
should have to make some
contribution towards the | 3:03:27 | 3:03:31 | |
conversation. It should not fall
totally on the public purse but that | 3:03:31 | 3:03:36 | |
is a decision which the Secretary of
State would have to make, the view | 3:03:36 | 3:03:40 | |
which we would have on that if we
were consulted on it would be that | 3:03:40 | 3:03:45 | |
yes, there is a role for the state
but there is also a role for those | 3:03:45 | 3:03:50 | |
institutions which at least turned a
blind eye to some of the terrible | 3:03:50 | 3:03:54 | |
abuse that went on and therefore
allowed so many victims to | 3:03:54 | 3:04:01 | |
experience the terrible things which
happened to them. In conclusion, Mr | 3:04:01 | 3:04:07 | |
Deputy Speaker, I welcome this. But
I warn the Secretary of State, it is | 3:04:07 | 3:04:15 | |
but a first step. It is one thing to
allocate money to departments, it's | 3:04:15 | 3:04:19 | |
another thing to ensure that
departments and civil servants | 3:04:19 | 3:04:24 | |
within those departments of the
guidance, the direction and the | 3:04:24 | 3:04:28 | |
authority to spend the money. As
always, it's a pleasure to follow | 3:04:28 | 3:04:35 | |
the right honourable gentleman from
East Antrim, who spoke with great | 3:04:35 | 3:04:38 | |
authority and eloquence and of
course he speaks with authority as | 3:04:38 | 3:04:40 | |
he said as a former minister for
Finance in Northern Ireland and he | 3:04:40 | 3:04:46 | |
and I both have the experience of
serving within that office in the | 3:04:46 | 3:04:50 | |
Northern Ireland executive so I
empathise with his frustration when | 3:04:50 | 3:04:53 | |
it comes to replying to some of
these kind of debates because I well | 3:04:53 | 3:05:00 | |
remember civil servants are
preparing a host of answers to | 3:05:00 | 3:05:03 | |
possible questions that might arise
in the course of this kind of debate | 3:05:03 | 3:05:06 | |
and I remember after a year or to of
experience being able to tell them | 3:05:06 | 3:05:11 | |
they could discard all those
preparations since the same issues | 3:05:11 | 3:05:15 | |
would arise as had risen in every
previous debate of this type which | 3:05:15 | 3:05:18 | |
would be totally relevant to the
debate and they should just get on | 3:05:18 | 3:05:22 | |
and prepare the press release.
Thankfully that hasn't been as much | 3:05:22 | 3:05:26 | |
of that in this debate so far and
the right honourable gentleman has | 3:05:26 | 3:05:31 | |
clearly set out what this bill
actually does. I too welcome the | 3:05:31 | 3:05:37 | |
fact the Secretary of State has
brought this bill to the House | 3:05:37 | 3:05:42 | |
today. I think it is timely and it
is the start of decision-making for | 3:05:42 | 3:05:50 | |
Northern Ireland, ending the drift
and it's an important milestone in | 3:05:50 | 3:05:54 | |
that regard. I fully empathise with
the point that was made by the | 3:05:54 | 3:05:58 | |
honourable member for Lewis when she
spoke earlier about the empty | 3:05:58 | 3:06:03 | |
benches. I suppose in one way you
could say it is actually quite a | 3:06:03 | 3:06:07 | |
good sign in the sense that it seems
after all taking decisions at | 3:06:07 | 3:06:12 | |
Westminster isn't that
controversial. At the end of the day | 3:06:12 | 3:06:15 | |
there seems to be a broad consensus
in the sense there is nobody here | 3:06:15 | 3:06:19 | |
that I heard talking about how
terrible it would all be, even here | 3:06:19 | 3:06:27 | |
to make these points so it is a
significant development. And also | 3:06:27 | 3:06:34 | |
who those who she alluded to him
speak about their concern for the | 3:06:34 | 3:06:38 | |
economy and the future and about
having no hard border, when it comes | 3:06:38 | 3:06:43 | |
to the nitty-gritty financial
management and decisions for | 3:06:43 | 3:06:46 | |
Northern Ireland, they are not here.
These are people who speak a lot | 3:06:46 | 3:06:51 | |
about Northern Ireland in terms of
Brexit but who never show interest | 3:06:51 | 3:06:56 | |
at another time. It raises questions
in our mind to what extent Brexit... | 3:06:56 | 3:07:03 | |
Northern Ireland and the Belfast
agreement and our political | 3:07:03 | 3:07:07 | |
situation is being used by some
people to thwart Brexit or to shape | 3:07:07 | 3:07:13 | |
a Brexit they would like for the
whole of the UK. | 3:07:13 | 3:07:20 | |
So I commend those members of the
House on both sides who are here | 3:07:20 | 3:07:24 | |
today and who are making a
contribution on this important | 3:07:24 | 3:07:29 | |
matter, and it is an important
matter. I reiterate the point the | 3:07:29 | 3:07:34 | |
right honourable member for East
Antrim has made already, that we do | 3:07:34 | 3:07:37 | |
not wish to be in this situation. We
would far rather these matters were | 3:07:37 | 3:07:41 | |
being decided and decisions being
taken in Stormont and indeed it is | 3:07:41 | 3:07:48 | |
ironic that in late December 2016
when the then Finance minister, the | 3:07:48 | 3:07:55 | |
member of Sinn Fein, had the ability
to bring forward measures in the | 3:07:55 | 3:07:59 | |
budget he refused to do so
consistently, to bring matters even | 3:07:59 | 3:08:03 | |
to the Northern Ireland executive in
the fall and certain knowledge they | 3:08:03 | 3:08:08 | |
would crash the institutions early
in January over matters that were | 3:08:08 | 3:08:12 | |
totally extraneous to the programmes
of government or anything they had | 3:08:12 | 3:08:17 | |
raised in discussion with us prior
to that point. I give way. | 3:08:17 | 3:08:22 | |
Had the member who he is referring
still being finance minister and | 3:08:22 | 3:08:28 | |
this situation arisen, he would
probably be breathing a sigh of | 3:08:28 | 3:08:31 | |
relief because he hadn't the courage
to take the political decisions to | 3:08:31 | 3:08:34 | |
bring forward, the only finance
minister ever to do so, would rather | 3:08:34 | 3:08:40 | |
whinge and point the finger at the
party opposite. | 3:08:40 | 3:08:45 | |
The right honourable gentleman makes
an interesting point, because it is | 3:08:45 | 3:08:48 | |
clear that unlike ourselves, and
there is a fairly good illustration | 3:08:48 | 3:08:54 | |
which proves the point that the
right honourable gentleman has made, | 3:08:54 | 3:08:57 | |
and it is over the issue of welfare
reform. In which we were faced with | 3:08:57 | 3:09:02 | |
a very difficult situation in
Northern Ireland, where because of | 3:09:02 | 3:09:05 | |
welfare cuts and changes to welfare
benefits, there were mitigations | 3:09:05 | 3:09:10 | |
that were negotiated by the then
Minister, which certainly helped the | 3:09:10 | 3:09:15 | |
situation as far as Northern Ireland
was concerned, but generally | 3:09:15 | 3:09:18 | |
speaking presented at difficult
position for all the parties in | 3:09:18 | 3:09:24 | |
Northern Ireland but the parties,
including Athos, to those hard | 3:09:24 | 3:09:26 | |
decisions and brought them to the
assembly and Sinn Fein refused to go | 3:09:26 | 3:09:29 | |
along with it, because of the
make-up of the assembly and the veto | 3:09:29 | 3:09:33 | |
principle, they were able to block
it. The institutions almost | 3:09:33 | 3:09:38 | |
collapsed as a result. We had to
have the Stormont house negotiations | 3:09:38 | 3:09:42 | |
on the fresh start negotiations in
order to prevent the collapse of the | 3:09:42 | 3:09:46 | |
assembly, because as the right
honourable gentleman points out, | 3:09:46 | 3:09:50 | |
there is a refusal on the part of
Sinn Fein in particular to actually | 3:09:50 | 3:09:54 | |
take our decisions. To work within
the parameters of a devolved | 3:09:54 | 3:09:59 | |
legislature that has to set budgets
and work within the block grant. | 3:09:59 | 3:10:03 | |
That is part of the problem. One of
the reasons we are now in this | 3:10:03 | 3:10:07 | |
situation. As far as we are
concerned, we have always been in | 3:10:07 | 3:10:13 | |
the position that we were in
December 2016, at the time of the | 3:10:13 | 3:10:18 | |
elections in March 2017 and every
day since: we stand ready in this | 3:10:18 | 3:10:25 | |
party to get back into the
Government immediately, without any | 3:10:25 | 3:10:30 | |
preconditions, without any red
lines, to tackle the issues which | 3:10:30 | 3:10:34 | |
matter to the people of Northern
Ireland and that any survey and any | 3:10:34 | 3:10:39 | |
poll done right across both
communities, the issues that matter | 3:10:39 | 3:10:42 | |
to people are the issues that matter
to people everywhere... Health | 3:10:42 | 3:10:49 | |
spending, education, infrastructure,
housing, the environment. These are | 3:10:49 | 3:10:52 | |
things people care about and they
want their politicians to be | 3:10:52 | 3:10:55 | |
delivering on them and dealing with
them, and so do we. That is why we | 3:10:55 | 3:11:00 | |
are mystified and why most people in
Northern Ireland are bewildered at | 3:11:00 | 3:11:04 | |
the fact that Sinn Fein could very
narrow partisan political issues | 3:11:04 | 3:11:09 | |
above dealing with these issues.
When we put forward a proposition | 3:11:09 | 3:11:13 | |
that we could do with those issues
of concern to Sinn Fein in parallel | 3:11:13 | 3:11:16 | |
with getting the institutions up and
running, with dealings are big | 3:11:16 | 3:11:20 | |
issues that affect all of us, and
would even time-limit the duration | 3:11:20 | 3:11:24 | |
of the assembly to ensure there was
no bad faith on our part, that was | 3:11:24 | 3:11:27 | |
rejected out of hand. So let us be
very, very clear. Devolution is our | 3:11:27 | 3:11:34 | |
first option and is our clear
preference. We are not the barriers | 3:11:34 | 3:11:38 | |
to devolution in Northern Ireland,
nor I believe are other smaller | 3:11:38 | 3:11:41 | |
parties like the Ulster Unionists.
It is very clear what is blocking | 3:11:41 | 3:11:49 | |
devolution. But the point that we
also make over and over again, and | 3:11:49 | 3:11:54 | |
it's a point that was emphasised
strongly by the chairman of the | 3:11:54 | 3:11:57 | |
Northern Ireland's select affairs
committee in his contribution | 3:11:57 | 3:12:01 | |
earlier. He is absolutely correct in
this, is that without prejudice | 3:12:01 | 3:12:06 | |
kitting devolution up and running,
without prejudice efforts to get | 3:12:06 | 3:12:11 | |
that happening, we do need decisions
to be made. A point also alluded to | 3:12:11 | 3:12:16 | |
by the honourable lady from Lewis.
It is the fact there are no | 3:12:16 | 3:12:20 | |
ministers in place that is causing
drift and putting Northern Ireland | 3:12:20 | 3:12:24 | |
into limbo. It is the reason that we
don't have some of the decisions | 3:12:24 | 3:12:28 | |
made in the Department of the
economy that my right honourable | 3:12:28 | 3:12:31 | |
friend referred to. It isn't the
absence of an executive per se but | 3:12:31 | 3:12:37 | |
the absence of ministers, and as the
chairman of the Northern Ireland | 3:12:37 | 3:12:45 | |
select affairs committee said, this
situation cannot go on for much | 3:12:45 | 3:12:48 | |
longer. The various decisions that
need to be made by ministers are | 3:12:48 | 3:12:52 | |
decisions basically about allocation
and prioritisation. Civil servants | 3:12:52 | 3:12:58 | |
cannot make those decisions, because
otherwise they are just making | 3:12:58 | 3:13:04 | |
personal decisions, they are not
accountable. That cannot continue. | 3:13:04 | 3:13:08 | |
So therefore we do need to ensure
that something is done about that | 3:13:08 | 3:13:12 | |
and done about it in a relatively
short space of time. | 3:13:12 | 3:13:18 | |
I thank my right honourable friend
for giving way. Would he agree with | 3:13:18 | 3:13:21 | |
me that what is part of the problem
in the wider community in Northern | 3:13:21 | 3:13:28 | |
Ireland, many disillusioned with
politics, but disillusion and the | 3:13:28 | 3:13:32 | |
very lack of what he has outlined as
ministerial decision making in order | 3:13:32 | 3:13:40 | |
to address the issues of everyone,
not just a small part of the | 3:13:40 | 3:13:45 | |
community?
The honourable member is absolutely | 3:13:45 | 3:13:48 | |
right. When I have constituency
surgeries and meet with them and | 3:13:48 | 3:13:52 | |
discuss with them as we all do as
members of parliament, the matters | 3:13:52 | 3:13:57 | |
of individual concern or wider
issues, over and over again, it | 3:13:57 | 3:14:00 | |
doesn't matter whether people from a
nationalist or unionist background, | 3:14:00 | 3:14:03 | |
but what they are lamenting is the
fact that decisions are not being | 3:14:03 | 3:14:07 | |
made. The recent lobby of this place
by a large group of people | 3:14:07 | 3:14:13 | |
interested and affected by mental
health issues was a glaring example. | 3:14:13 | 3:14:17 | |
They made a cross-party, cross
community plea which was - please | 3:14:17 | 3:14:25 | |
give us some one that we can lobby.
Please give us and that can take | 3:14:25 | 3:14:30 | |
decisions on a trauma centre for
Northern Ireland, and as someone who | 3:14:30 | 3:14:35 | |
represents the constituency that has
the highest rate of suicide in | 3:14:35 | 3:14:39 | |
Northern Ireland, and indeed the
United Kingdom, this is an issue | 3:14:39 | 3:14:42 | |
which I feel very, very strongly
about and there needs to be | 3:14:42 | 3:14:45 | |
something done about it, in terms of
decision-making. We have secured, as | 3:14:45 | 3:14:50 | |
a result of the confident supply
agreement, extra money to be spent | 3:14:50 | 3:14:55 | |
on mental health specifically in
Northern Ireland, but when you talk | 3:14:55 | 3:15:00 | |
to the civil servants in the
Department of Health and elsewhere, | 3:15:00 | 3:15:03 | |
they are not able to outline how
they are going to spend that because | 3:15:03 | 3:15:07 | |
they have no ministerial direction
to stop the money can be allocated, | 3:15:07 | 3:15:12 | |
as my right honourable friend has
said, but decisions within the | 3:15:12 | 3:15:15 | |
department need to be made by a
minister. | 3:15:15 | 3:15:18 | |
Yes, I will give way.
Thank you. I thank my right | 3:15:18 | 3:15:24 | |
honourable friend from Belfast North
for giving weight, and also the | 3:15:24 | 3:15:29 | |
contribution from my right
honourable friend for Antrim East. I | 3:15:29 | 3:15:34 | |
don't quite understand why a
minister will not come to make such | 3:15:34 | 3:15:44 | |
decisions shortly. We are not at
that stage yet, as far as I can | 3:15:44 | 3:15:48 | |
ascertain, but there seems to me no
reason why a minister should not | 3:15:48 | 3:15:54 | |
take that decision. We're not going
back to direct rule, we might be | 3:15:54 | 3:16:01 | |
going to pragmatic and also legal
decisions required to look after the | 3:16:01 | 3:16:07 | |
community of Northern Ireland. And
that might come about, surely, | 3:16:07 | 3:16:11 | |
relatively shortly.
The honourable gentleman makes a | 3:16:11 | 3:16:16 | |
very sensible and reasonable and
pragmatic point, if I may say so, | 3:16:16 | 3:16:20 | |
and he does it, as always, given his
strong interest in affairs to do | 3:16:20 | 3:16:25 | |
with Northern Ireland. I know he
speaks from the heart and from an | 3:16:25 | 3:16:29 | |
interest to make sure Northern
Ireland keeps moving forward. And | 3:16:29 | 3:16:32 | |
that is our only concern. We want to
make sure that everybody | 3:16:32 | 3:16:40 | |
across-the-board is not
detrimentally affected by the lack | 3:16:40 | 3:16:42 | |
of ministers. Likewise, it was back
concerned to ensure people | 3:16:42 | 3:16:46 | |
across-the-board, in both
communities, had their lives | 3:16:46 | 3:16:49 | |
improved that we argued that the
confidence and supply arrangements | 3:16:49 | 3:16:54 | |
should include an extra £1 billion
in cash resources for Northern | 3:16:54 | 3:17:01 | |
Ireland, to be spent across a range
of subjects which would benefit | 3:17:01 | 3:17:06 | |
everybody. That is in addition to
the extra half £1 billion in | 3:17:06 | 3:17:11 | |
flexibilities, in terms of previous
monies allocated. | 3:17:11 | 3:17:17 | |
I welcome the fact the Secretary of
State in recent days has announced | 3:17:17 | 3:17:21 | |
the budget for Northern Ireland to
include the £410 million, the first | 3:17:21 | 3:17:26 | |
tranche of the substantial part of
that confidence and supply | 3:17:26 | 3:17:30 | |
arrangement. There were people who
said over and over again in the | 3:17:30 | 3:17:33 | |
media and elsewhere that that money
would never come to Northern | 3:17:33 | 3:17:36 | |
Ireland. That it was a pipe dream.
It has now been delivered. They also | 3:17:36 | 3:17:43 | |
said it wouldn't come in the absence
of an executive. That has been | 3:17:43 | 3:17:46 | |
proved wrong as well, although I
don't hear them saying much about | 3:17:46 | 3:17:50 | |
it, though they were very vocal
previously. And they also said that | 3:17:50 | 3:17:55 | |
it couldn't come because there was
no Parliamentary authority for it, | 3:17:55 | 3:18:00 | |
but we are now getting Parliament
authorities through this bill for | 3:18:00 | 3:18:03 | |
the money that is to be spent this
financial year, and there will be | 3:18:03 | 3:18:09 | |
proper Parliamentary authority given
to all the rest of it, just as is to | 3:18:09 | 3:18:13 | |
be expected and is the normal
process. | 3:18:13 | 3:18:20 | |
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I'm
grateful to the honourable gentleman | 3:18:20 | 3:18:24 | |
for letting me intervene. I have
listened carefully to what the | 3:18:24 | 3:18:28 | |
honourable gentleman has had to say
and he made it quite clear that on | 3:18:28 | 3:18:32 | |
behalf of his party there are no red
lines. He has also made it quite | 3:18:32 | 3:18:37 | |
clear that his constituents, indeed
my constituents, people across | 3:18:37 | 3:18:43 | |
Northern Ireland are anxious to see
their assembly back again and | 3:18:43 | 3:18:45 | |
ministers making decisions. So what
exactly is holding up the DUP | 3:18:45 | 3:18:51 | |
getting back into talks with Sinn
Fein and seeing successfully the | 3:18:51 | 3:18:55 | |
restoration of devolution in
Northern Ireland, for the benefit of | 3:18:55 | 3:19:00 | |
everybody?
Well, I could believe everything the | 3:19:00 | 3:19:05 | |
right honourable member for East
Antrim said. The honourable lady has | 3:19:05 | 3:19:09 | |
said please don't, so I won't. If
she didn't understand it the first | 3:19:09 | 3:19:13 | |
time, I don't think she is going to
understand it even though I repeat | 3:19:13 | 3:19:16 | |
it. The fact of the matter is we are
no barrier to devolution, neither | 3:19:16 | 3:19:25 | |
are the Ulster Unionists or the DUP.
Perhaps more pressure exerted on | 3:19:25 | 3:19:29 | |
those who are the barrier would be
more productive and sensible. | 3:19:29 | 3:19:33 | |
The fact of the matter is this is a
very positive move, in terms of | 3:19:33 | 3:19:39 | |
breaking the logjam and the drift
that has continued for too long in | 3:19:39 | 3:19:42 | |
Northern Ireland. It sends a very
strong message to everyone, | 3:19:42 | 3:19:46 | |
including the parties that have been
reluctant so far in terms of forming | 3:19:46 | 3:19:51 | |
the executive. That decisions will
be taken. Decisions will be taken | 3:19:51 | 3:19:55 | |
for the good of the people of
Northern Ireland. With the right | 3:19:55 | 3:19:59 | |
honourable gentleman give way? I
will. | 3:19:59 | 3:20:02 | |
Thank you. It is exceedingly
generous of the right honourable | 3:20:02 | 3:20:08 | |
gentleman. I wanted him to reflect
for a few moments on the fact I | 3:20:08 | 3:20:12 | |
think it is tomorrow which marks the
first anniversary of the death of | 3:20:12 | 3:20:15 | |
Martin McGuinness. Martin McGuinness
sat in a very successful period of | 3:20:15 | 3:20:21 | |
devolved government with his then
party leader, in Paisley senior. | 3:20:21 | 3:20:25 | |
Sadly both of them are no longer
with us. There was remarkable | 3:20:25 | 3:20:29 | |
generosity of spirit shown by both
gentleman at the time. Could the DUP | 3:20:29 | 3:20:33 | |
indicate a general state of spirit
to get back into talks without any | 3:20:33 | 3:20:36 | |
hesitation or red lines?
The honourable lady is right to | 3:20:36 | 3:20:42 | |
refer to the efforts that were made
by the previous leader in Northern | 3:20:42 | 3:20:49 | |
Ireland and my previous leader, the
great efforts made, and to their | 3:20:49 | 3:20:55 | |
successors, Peter Robinson, who led
the executive to seven years, and to | 3:20:55 | 3:20:59 | |
Arlene Foster and to Martin
McGuinness during that period of | 3:20:59 | 3:21:04 | |
time as well. I served in the
executive, both under Doctor Paisley | 3:21:04 | 3:21:11 | |
and Mr Robinson so I am aware of the
efforts the DUP have made to reach | 3:21:11 | 3:21:15 | |
out across the communities, to serve
with people who for many, many years | 3:21:15 | 3:21:21 | |
attacked our communities, and indeed
attacked us personally, in terms of | 3:21:21 | 3:21:24 | |
trying to assassinate members of our
party and myself and others. So this | 3:21:24 | 3:21:31 | |
was no easy task. I think generosity
of spirit is something which we have | 3:21:31 | 3:21:37 | |
exhibited in many, over many, many
years, many, many years. The fact of | 3:21:37 | 3:21:44 | |
the matter is that we are still,
despite all of what the right | 3:21:44 | 3:21:49 | |
honourable gentleman from East
Antrim alluded to above the toxicity | 3:21:49 | 3:21:54 | |
of the atmosphere Sinn Fein created,
we are still prepared to go into | 3:21:54 | 3:21:58 | |
government and work devolved
government. That shows a pretty | 3:21:58 | 3:22:01 | |
generous spirit. The fact of the
matter is that there are no red | 3:22:01 | 3:22:05 | |
lines for us because we believe in
going about the people's business | 3:22:05 | 3:22:07 | |
and getting government up and
running, and that is what matters. | 3:22:07 | 3:22:12 | |
And just as an aside, could I say,
though it's more than an aside, she | 3:22:12 | 3:22:16 | |
referred to an anniversary tomorrow,
but we have already rightly referred | 3:22:16 | 3:22:24 | |
to the anniversary today of the
Warrington bombing, the anniversary | 3:22:24 | 3:22:28 | |
yesterday of the savage murder of
two army corporal 's, which | 3:22:28 | 3:22:34 | |
everybody who was alive at the time
will remember seeing the footage of | 3:22:34 | 3:22:38 | |
two young British soldiers who
stumbled into a funeral and were | 3:22:38 | 3:22:45 | |
almost literally torn to death. | 3:22:45 | 3:22:46 | |
And we should remember that in the
eulogies to Martin McGuinness, a | 3:22:51 | 3:22:56 | |
movement that he led, carried out
those atrocities. My right | 3:22:56 | 3:23:04 | |
honourable friend refers to one of
the darkest days to the British Army | 3:23:04 | 3:23:09 | |
during the troubles but will he join
me in contrasting that day to the | 3:23:09 | 3:23:12 | |
scenes we saw in Lisbon last week
when my battalion was welcomed back | 3:23:12 | 3:23:20 | |
with such great enthusiasm. I'm sure
even 30 years ago the good people of | 3:23:20 | 3:23:29 | |
Lisbon would have given the same
welcome to the soldiers he refers | 3:23:29 | 3:23:33 | |
to. The fact of the matter is that
in praise of the peace process and | 3:23:33 | 3:23:38 | |
the political process in Northern
Ireland, the far too little respect, | 3:23:38 | 3:23:45 | |
far too little praise is given to
the members of the Army, the | 3:23:45 | 3:23:48 | |
services, the police and so on who
over many, many decades held the | 3:23:48 | 3:23:56 | |
ring, protected innocent life both
Catholic and Protestant, unionist | 3:23:56 | 3:24:01 | |
and nationalist, were courageous in
their efforts. Only for them we | 3:24:01 | 3:24:06 | |
wouldn't enjoy the peace we enjoy
today. So why rightly there are | 3:24:06 | 3:24:12 | |
individuals in the political sphere
and others who are praised and given | 3:24:12 | 3:24:15 | |
plaudits and the rest of it, the
real heroes are the people of our | 3:24:15 | 3:24:22 | |
emergency services, our security
forces who put on their uniforms, | 3:24:22 | 3:24:26 | |
and went out and defended people at
great cost to themselves. Some | 3:24:26 | 3:24:30 | |
people asked to bearing the cost in
mental and physical trauma ever | 3:24:30 | 3:24:37 | |
since. It might be appropriate to
say Gillian Johnson was murdered by | 3:24:37 | 3:24:47 | |
the IRA as well and with the family
we should remember those, there are | 3:24:47 | 3:24:55 | |
many forgotten victims. The
honourable gentleman is absolutely | 3:24:55 | 3:24:58 | |
right to draw attention to that
particularly brutal slaying as well. | 3:24:58 | 3:25:05 | |
It's right to remember all of the
victims of the troubles in Northern | 3:25:05 | 3:25:09 | |
Ireland and it's all too easy to
gloss over these. We remember them | 3:25:09 | 3:25:14 | |
not because we want to indulge in
talking about the past but because | 3:25:14 | 3:25:22 | |
it's important to remember the
victims and that their sacrifice is | 3:25:22 | 3:25:26 | |
never forgotten and that we redouble
our efforts to try to keep moving | 3:25:26 | 3:25:30 | |
Northern Ireland forward. That is
why we want devolution restored, why | 3:25:30 | 3:25:36 | |
we want to get the institutions back
up and running. I sometimes say to | 3:25:36 | 3:25:41 | |
those who say let's just get it
done, let's call a meeting of the | 3:25:41 | 3:25:45 | |
Assembly on Monday. Let's call a
meeting of the Assembly on Monday. | 3:25:45 | 3:25:50 | |
Let's go through the process for
forming the executive. Let's see who | 3:25:50 | 3:25:56 | |
stepped forward to form the
executive, let's see who refuses to | 3:25:56 | 3:25:59 | |
step forward, and then all of those
who say why can't you all just get | 3:25:59 | 3:26:06 | |
together, who lump all of the
politicians into one group and say | 3:26:06 | 3:26:10 | |
you are all to blame, then you can
all see for yourselves who it is | 3:26:10 | 3:26:15 | |
that refuses to form the Government.
So with this high close, Mr Deputy | 3:26:15 | 3:26:22 | |
Speaker, let's get this process
passed today. Let's get the | 3:26:22 | 3:26:27 | |
legislation passed tomorrow, let's
start getting decisions made, let's | 3:26:27 | 3:26:30 | |
keep on with the efforts to get
devolution and perhaps the Secretary | 3:26:30 | 3:26:37 | |
of State, encouraged by her efforts
in getting this legislation through, | 3:26:37 | 3:26:40 | |
will come forward with a proposal to
get the executive and call the | 3:26:40 | 3:26:45 | |
Assembly together and invite those
who wish to to form a coalition of | 3:26:45 | 3:26:49 | |
the willing and those who refuse to
answer why they are not prepared to | 3:26:49 | 3:26:54 | |
take on the responsibility of the
Government of Northern Ireland. It | 3:26:54 | 3:27:00 | |
is a pleasure to follow the
excellent speeches we have heard | 3:27:00 | 3:27:05 | |
across the halcyon today,
particularly the speeches by my | 3:27:05 | 3:27:09 | |
right honourable colleagues for
north Belfast on the Sandringham. I | 3:27:09 | 3:27:12 | |
feel they have strongly put across
the key issues involved in the | 3:27:12 | 3:27:16 | |
current situation in Northern
Ireland and I would heed their | 3:27:16 | 3:27:18 | |
advice. It's not often you do sit on
the same benches of no fewer than | 3:27:18 | 3:27:27 | |
two former finance ministers and I'm
very conscious that they in the | 3:27:27 | 3:27:33 | |
House have no doubt, as did
officials and I can see some from | 3:27:33 | 3:27:37 | |
Northern Ireland here today, and I
know they will have sat here year | 3:27:37 | 3:27:40 | |
after year and heard the issues
people raise and I don't want to | 3:27:40 | 3:27:47 | |
breach that too much today but I
cannot promise. Before I get into is | 3:27:47 | 3:27:54 | |
the substance of some of the issues
discussed, this is a particularly | 3:27:54 | 3:27:59 | |
sad day for Northern Ireland because
once again we are standing in this | 3:27:59 | 3:28:02 | |
chamber discussing the business of
Northern Ireland when what we want | 3:28:02 | 3:28:06 | |
is for the Northern Ireland Assembly
to be restored from locally elected | 3:28:06 | 3:28:12 | |
Northern Ireland politicians to be
sitting in the local Northern | 3:28:12 | 3:28:15 | |
Ireland Assembly making decisions
for people from Northern Ireland. | 3:28:15 | 3:28:19 | |
That is what I hear from people all
of the time, that is what I hear | 3:28:19 | 3:28:22 | |
from people on the ground and I
think it has been a very good strong | 3:28:22 | 3:28:26 | |
point that has been raised by the
honourable member for Lewis in | 3:28:26 | 3:28:34 | |
relation to the interest shown by
Northern Ireland because I hear, as | 3:28:34 | 3:28:37 | |
we all do every day from across the
benches and the House around the | 3:28:37 | 3:28:44 | |
interest in Northern Ireland and the
interest in the economy and what's | 3:28:44 | 3:28:47 | |
good for Northern Ireland and how we
don't know what's good for Northern | 3:28:47 | 3:28:51 | |
Ireland, but that is an incredible
and stark fact is that there has | 3:28:51 | 3:28:56 | |
been no government in Northern
Ireland for over 14 months at this | 3:28:56 | 3:29:00 | |
point. In this great democracy we
are in, which is the United Kingdom, | 3:29:00 | 3:29:06 | |
there is a region, Northern Ireland
are part of that UK, where there is | 3:29:06 | 3:29:11 | |
a democratic deficit. We have
neither ministers to be accountable | 3:29:11 | 3:29:16 | |
to the people, we have senior civil
servants trying to get by because | 3:29:16 | 3:29:19 | |
that's all they are doing, and they
are under intolerable pressure | 3:29:19 | 3:29:24 | |
because this is a legal minefield.
They don't know and it's not clear | 3:29:24 | 3:29:27 | |
what decisions can and cannot be
made but what they do know is they | 3:29:27 | 3:29:32 | |
should not and cannot take decisions
that ministers ought to be taking, | 3:29:32 | 3:29:38 | |
yet after 14 months we still don't
have ministers in place and that is | 3:29:38 | 3:29:42 | |
simply not sustainable. Although I
welcome the technical bill brought | 3:29:42 | 3:29:49 | |
forward today and as articulated by
my right honourable colleagues, | 3:29:49 | 3:29:52 | |
there is a lot of confusion at times
about these types of technical bill | 3:29:52 | 3:29:59 | |
is, however it doesn't take away
from the fact decisions need to be | 3:29:59 | 3:30:03 | |
made. It is not sustainable in
Northern Ireland for those decisions | 3:30:03 | 3:30:06 | |
not to be made. She has outlined it
very well but the bottom line is | 3:30:06 | 3:30:14 | |
there is one party who was holding
Northern Ireland to ransom, has held | 3:30:14 | 3:30:19 | |
Northern Ireland to ransom for many
years through their previous | 3:30:19 | 3:30:23 | |
violence but now economically
holding the company to ransom and | 3:30:23 | 3:30:28 | |
that is Sinn Fein. I absolutely
agree with my honourable friend and | 3:30:28 | 3:30:32 | |
I will go on to talk about that a
little later in more detail but I do | 3:30:32 | 3:30:37 | |
want to highlight two key issues.
The first is in relation to the | 3:30:37 | 3:30:42 | |
process involved in this and the
process as we lead up to the budget | 3:30:42 | 3:30:47 | |
which will hopefully be presented in
and around June time. Although we | 3:30:47 | 3:30:52 | |
have two former ministers of
finance, I was the last chairperson | 3:30:52 | 3:30:56 | |
of the Finance committee and the
Northern Ireland Assembly on | 3:30:56 | 3:31:00 | |
collapse and my right honourable
friend from north Belfast spoke | 3:31:00 | 3:31:03 | |
about this in terms of the behaviour
of the then finance minister who was | 3:31:03 | 3:31:08 | |
the Sinn Fein finance minister.
There were concerns by Sinn Fein in | 3:31:08 | 3:31:13 | |
relation to a number of matters. It
became clear Sinn Fein were | 3:31:13 | 3:31:17 | |
intending to bring down the Assembly
unilaterally. The only way they | 3:31:17 | 3:31:20 | |
could do that was by resigning and
that was the resignation of Martin | 3:31:20 | 3:31:25 | |
McGuinness. We and the committee, I
and the committee, made strong | 3:31:25 | 3:31:33 | |
recommendations and representations
to the finance minister in writing | 3:31:33 | 3:31:36 | |
and on the floor of the Northern
Ireland Assembly to say the decision | 3:31:36 | 3:31:40 | |
about the timing of this collapse is
yours. They were the only party that | 3:31:40 | 3:31:46 | |
wanted the collapse. They chose the
timing of the collapse and that is | 3:31:46 | 3:31:50 | |
vitally important for two of the
issues mentioned here today. The | 3:31:50 | 3:31:54 | |
first in relation to the reports of
the historical institutional abuse | 3:31:54 | 3:31:58 | |
inquiry. I as a special adviser and
junior minister for a period of | 3:31:58 | 3:32:06 | |
time, I had responsibility for that
policy area. I spoke to many victims | 3:32:06 | 3:32:11 | |
on an ongoing basis of historical
and institutional abuse and their | 3:32:11 | 3:32:16 | |
stories are powerful stories.
Incredibly sympathetic accounts and | 3:32:16 | 3:32:22 | |
that's why they the executive
jointly moved with Sinn Fein to put | 3:32:22 | 3:32:26 | |
in place legislation and an
independent body to deal with these | 3:32:26 | 3:32:36 | |
matters. When the executive agreed
those terms of reference, it was the | 3:32:36 | 3:32:41 | |
date in which the report would come
forward because unlike some of the | 3:32:41 | 3:32:44 | |
public inquiry legislation, the
historical institution legislation | 3:32:44 | 3:32:52 | |
had a deadline, a period of time
with a discretionary power to the | 3:32:52 | 3:32:55 | |
extent but only for one year. So
from the outset of the inquiry, Sinn | 3:32:55 | 3:33:01 | |
Fein knew exactly when that report
would come forward and furthermore | 3:33:01 | 3:33:06 | |
the chairperson I want to put on
record my thanks to the excellent | 3:33:06 | 3:33:13 | |
work done in that inquiry. He
brought the inquiry report in on | 3:33:13 | 3:33:24 | |
time. Whenever they collapsed it was
just days to go until got that | 3:33:24 | 3:33:33 | |
report. And second issue which I
raised directly with the finance | 3:33:33 | 3:33:39 | |
minister is wide view not hold on
for a further week to allow for the | 3:33:39 | 3:33:44 | |
budget to be presented to this
Assembly, for the budget to be | 3:33:44 | 3:33:47 | |
passed on to give certainty for the
people of Northern Ireland, for the | 3:33:47 | 3:33:52 | |
public services of Northern Ireland.
There is no reason and I make this | 3:33:52 | 3:33:56 | |
clear, one week would have made no
difference in terms of that | 3:33:56 | 3:33:59 | |
collapse. We did not want the
collapse to happen but they chose to | 3:33:59 | 3:34:04 | |
collapse it Sinn Fein the timing.
That timing was an already widely | 3:34:04 | 3:34:14 | |
over -- overdue budget. Sinn Fein
will go down as the only party in | 3:34:14 | 3:34:18 | |
Northern Ireland who failed to
produce their number on duty, which | 3:34:18 | 3:34:25 | |
is to reduce the budget for Northern
Ireland. The second important issue | 3:34:25 | 3:34:29 | |
in relation to the scrutiny of the
finance committee is that that | 3:34:29 | 3:34:34 | |
opportunity is no longer there. It
is slightly different from the | 3:34:34 | 3:34:40 | |
statutory duties of the select
committees of this House but there | 3:34:40 | 3:34:43 | |
is a statutory duty on those
committees to scrutinise, to ask for | 3:34:43 | 3:34:47 | |
evidence which we did. They have
called stakeholders departments, we | 3:34:47 | 3:34:52 | |
took a look at the overall budget
position and we would make | 3:34:52 | 3:34:57 | |
recommendations, and that process
simply does not exist under the | 3:34:57 | 3:35:01 | |
current situation. That is not good
for Northern Ireland, not good for | 3:35:01 | 3:35:04 | |
the budget not to have that process.
The DUP are absolutely clear, we are | 3:35:04 | 3:35:13 | |
prepared to go into government right
now. It is as simple as that and if | 3:35:13 | 3:35:17 | |
there was a calling of the Northern
Ireland Assembly tomorrow, we would | 3:35:17 | 3:35:21 | |
be there. We are not asking for
anything. However it is not just the | 3:35:21 | 3:35:27 | |
DUP, it is the entire of Northern
Ireland being held to ransom by one | 3:35:27 | 3:35:31 | |
party, one party, Sinn Fein, who are
being clear - we will not go in | 3:35:31 | 3:35:42 | |
unless our demands are met and that
is not the way to do business. I | 3:35:42 | 3:35:45 | |
would ask any interested member
across this House to look at the | 3:35:45 | 3:35:49 | |
programme for government, which is
agreed between the two parties and I | 3:35:49 | 3:35:54 | |
have been very only way to make
governments work, to make this type | 3:35:54 | 3:35:59 | |
of power-sharing agreement work, is
to focus on what we agree on and not | 3:35:59 | 3:36:05 | |
to get sidelined or obsessed with
the things we don't agree on. Nobody | 3:36:05 | 3:36:10 | |
will ever say Sinn Fein and DUP are
the same party in relation to a | 3:36:10 | 3:36:15 | |
whole range of policy areas. We
accept that in the power-sharing | 3:36:15 | 3:36:24 | |
agreement so let's get on and focus
on what we can agree on, and what we | 3:36:24 | 3:36:28 | |
can agree on was contained within
the last programme for government. | 3:36:28 | 3:36:31 | |
That is what we should be doing,
what we should be implementing. | 3:36:31 | 3:36:33 | |
There are plenty of issues we know
Sinn Fein did not agree with the DUP | 3:36:33 | 3:36:38 | |
on. We could say we refuse to go
into government unless you agree X, | 3:36:38 | 3:36:46 | |
Y and Z but we don't do that because
the people of Northern Ireland need | 3:36:46 | 3:36:52 | |
key decisions in relation to health,
education, access to drugs, in terms | 3:36:52 | 3:36:58 | |
of the support of their public
services. Although this is welcome | 3:36:58 | 3:37:02 | |
today in relation to a budget bill,
what is vital are the decisions that | 3:37:02 | 3:37:06 | |
need to be made, which haven't been
made for 14 months. No government | 3:37:06 | 3:37:12 | |
can continue like that, no
department can continue like that. | 3:37:12 | 3:37:16 | |
It is not sustainable and not fair
on the senior civil servants and | 3:37:16 | 3:37:23 | |
those trying to exercise and walk
this incredibly different line | 3:37:23 | 3:37:26 | |
between what is legal and what's not
with the fear they may end up in | 3:37:26 | 3:37:29 | |
court at any time in terms of those
decisions they are to make. | 3:37:29 | 3:37:37 | |
I want to very briefly, despite the
advice of my colleagues not to get | 3:37:37 | 3:37:40 | |
into some of the issues, but I do
want to raise a number of points of | 3:37:40 | 3:37:45 | |
concern that have been articulated
to me. | 3:37:45 | 3:37:48 | |
First of all, as mentioned by some
others across the House already, we | 3:37:48 | 3:37:51 | |
will have the victims, severely
disabled victims of the Troubles | 3:37:51 | 3:38:02 | |
with us in the next two days and I
have said that with the members and | 3:38:02 | 3:38:06 | |
I am glad they have shown an
interest. It is clear there are | 3:38:06 | 3:38:09 | |
great needs out there, particularly
that they need somebody to listen to | 3:38:09 | 3:38:17 | |
them, they need somebody to say, can
you take up my course customer and | 3:38:17 | 3:38:21 | |
they need action, most importantly.
These are the people who are | 3:38:21 | 3:38:24 | |
suffering most. Others want to focus
on divisive issues. Bit is the | 3:38:24 | 3:38:35 | |
devices -- on divisive issue on the
ground. If they say it is your fault | 3:38:35 | 3:38:39 | |
because he won't rule over and agree
that, that simply cannot be the | 3:38:39 | 3:38:42 | |
case. We need to listen to people
and build consensus. It is a | 3:38:42 | 3:38:46 | |
divisive issue. Plenty of divisive
issues in Northern Ireland, we know | 3:38:46 | 3:38:52 | |
that, divisive issues all over. We
can take the time to talk about it | 3:38:52 | 3:38:55 | |
but in the meantime, our politicians
must get on and should get on with | 3:38:55 | 3:38:59 | |
doing what they need to do, which is
delivering aid to these people who | 3:38:59 | 3:39:05 | |
have needs, the likes of people who
went through the abuse inquiry. I | 3:39:05 | 3:39:10 | |
would take listening to people
throughout that process, they said | 3:39:10 | 3:39:14 | |
to be very clear, we are not
interested in the money, it is not | 3:39:14 | 3:39:17 | |
about the compensation. This is
about truth, this is about getting | 3:39:17 | 3:39:20 | |
to the bottom of what happened. But
I also acknowledge it is important | 3:39:20 | 3:39:24 | |
that something happens at the end of
that inquiry. That report has | 3:39:24 | 3:39:28 | |
that something happens at the end of
that inquiry. That report has, Alain | 3:39:28 | 3:39:28 | |
has been -- the report has been out.
And the education sector, schools | 3:39:28 | 3:39:37 | |
are contacting all of is at this
time worried about their budgets, | 3:39:37 | 3:39:43 | |
particularly in relation to special
educational needs. We are seeing a | 3:39:43 | 3:39:46 | |
rise of conditions such as autism.
We are seeing big challenges in | 3:39:46 | 3:39:51 | |
relation to the mental health of our
young people. There are issues that | 3:39:51 | 3:39:55 | |
need to be addressed, but those
required decisions cannot constantly | 3:39:55 | 3:40:00 | |
be a roll on. I am asking the
Secretary of State today, therefore, | 3:40:00 | 3:40:05 | |
there is a programme at the moment
out there. We have gone too long, 14 | 3:40:05 | 3:40:10 | |
months plus is far too long and I am
asking the Secretary of State that | 3:40:10 | 3:40:14 | |
because of the current situation, a
situation that we don't want in | 3:40:14 | 3:40:19 | |
Northern Ireland, a situation where
the negotiations has not produced | 3:40:19 | 3:40:23 | |
agreement, I'm appealing to the
Secretary of State to step up and to | 3:40:23 | 3:40:27 | |
put in place and to ask her
colleagues to put in place ministers | 3:40:27 | 3:40:31 | |
to make those vital decisions for
the good of all of the people across | 3:40:31 | 3:40:36 | |
both communities and all communities
in Northern Ireland. | 3:40:36 | 3:40:42 | |
A pleasure to follow my colleague
from south Belfast. I just want to | 3:40:42 | 3:40:47 | |
put on record the point that we are
here and the title of this is | 3:40:47 | 3:40:53 | |
Anticipation. There has been a lot
of anticipation associated with | 3:40:53 | 3:40:57 | |
this. I don't want to really
regurgitate because I am one of | 3:40:57 | 3:41:01 | |
those members in the previous
assembly who, yes, were told we were | 3:41:01 | 3:41:06 | |
here to talk about not what you want
to spend the money on but on the | 3:41:06 | 3:41:09 | |
budget and what had happened
historically, and you just glibly | 3:41:09 | 3:41:14 | |
went ahead to go through back the
detail of what you had as a wish | 3:41:14 | 3:41:18 | |
list for your own constituency. But
I welcome the ability presented | 3:41:18 | 3:41:23 | |
before the House today. In doing so,
I want to really go back over some | 3:41:23 | 3:41:27 | |
of the crowd that has already been
put forward. We had a difficulty | 3:41:27 | 3:41:32 | |
last year where we did not have a
budget set. As a consequence, that | 3:41:32 | 3:41:39 | |
left those permanent secretaries and
apartments in a very difficult | 3:41:39 | 3:41:43 | |
position, making spend where they
were allowed to make a spend up | 3:41:43 | 3:41:50 | |
until about 75% of their budget at a
certain point. Ultimately we were | 3:41:50 | 3:41:54 | |
being told they could only spend up
to 95% of their total budget, | 3:41:54 | 3:42:00 | |
leaving Northern Ireland with a
black hole, in the region of 600 | 3:42:00 | 3:42:04 | |
million accounted in one year if we
had no budget set. Thankfully we | 3:42:04 | 3:42:09 | |
were able to get a budget put
through this house in November of | 3:42:09 | 3:42:14 | |
2017, to allow the total amount
allocated to be spent. I appreciate | 3:42:14 | 3:42:19 | |
that that does create its own
difficulties, in that department 's | 3:42:19 | 3:42:24 | |
cut their cloth accordingly, knowing
where they can and cannot make their | 3:42:24 | 3:42:28 | |
spend. But unfortunately,
decision-making is the main area | 3:42:28 | 3:42:33 | |
where we have had a deficit. The
difficulty we have had in the year | 3:42:33 | 3:42:39 | |
past are there were many projects
put on the back burner. Some civil | 3:42:39 | 3:42:45 | |
servants used the excuse of no
political direction as a reason to | 3:42:45 | 3:42:48 | |
do nothing. I can say that as far as
my area is concerned, we have roads | 3:42:48 | 3:42:55 | |
that need repair. Unfortunately,
whenever it comes to monitoring | 3:42:55 | 3:43:00 | |
rounds we didn't have the
opportunity to have the flexibility | 3:43:00 | 3:43:03 | |
to actually move money where it was
needed. That is a big, big problem | 3:43:03 | 3:43:07 | |
that has occurred. It is not just in
Northern Ireland, that is an issue | 3:43:07 | 3:43:12 | |
that has happened throughout the
United Kingdom. But without having | 3:43:12 | 3:43:16 | |
direction, we have problems within
our education sector, problems | 3:43:16 | 3:43:21 | |
within our health sector. Two of our
biggest areas of spend. I had | 3:43:21 | 3:43:28 | |
occasion in the last month to meet
with a delegation of principles from | 3:43:28 | 3:43:33 | |
schools right across my
constituency, representing every | 3:43:33 | 3:43:41 | |
sector of education, Irish medium
included. I can only say there is a | 3:43:41 | 3:43:43 | |
total on fairness in the way the
education funding, and this is | 3:43:43 | 3:43:47 | |
something which is coming forward,
and unfortunately the department are | 3:43:47 | 3:43:51 | |
saying they cannot make an
adjustment because they need | 3:43:51 | 3:43:54 | |
ministerial direction. We have
schools, primary schools that | 3:43:54 | 3:43:57 | |
receive £2242 per pupil. You have
another sector of education that | 3:43:57 | 3:44:02 | |
will receive five times that per
pupil. Where is the equality in | 3:44:02 | 3:44:11 | |
relation to that matter? Where one
pupil is valued at five times the | 3:44:11 | 3:44:14 | |
level that another pupil is in the
ordinary controlled sector of | 3:44:14 | 3:44:18 | |
education. I think that is something
that really needs to be looked at. | 3:44:18 | 3:44:22 | |
The message that came through from
that meeting is principles don't | 3:44:22 | 3:44:26 | |
necessarily want more money, they
want it spread more fairly and | 3:44:26 | 3:44:29 | |
evenly throughout the education
sector, and therefore you will have | 3:44:29 | 3:44:35 | |
the same outcomes with whatever
sector of education you are dealing | 3:44:35 | 3:44:38 | |
with. That was the message that came
out very loud and clear and it is | 3:44:38 | 3:44:41 | |
something I want to see being driven
forward. | 3:44:41 | 3:44:44 | |
I appreciate we have had all sorts
of options being brought forward in | 3:44:44 | 3:44:48 | |
how we deal with the way forward.
All I can say is we are rolling down | 3:44:48 | 3:44:53 | |
a track and there is a buffer. I
appreciate that decisions up to be | 3:44:53 | 3:44:56 | |
made in June of this year, when we
said a budget, but to allow that | 3:44:56 | 3:45:03 | |
budget to be spent, and I cannot see
as having an assembly up by that | 3:45:03 | 3:45:07 | |
time, we cannot, we will not have | 3:45:07 | 3:45:11 | |
ministers in position in Northern
Ireland to give direction. As a | 3:45:11 | 3:45:15 | |
consequence, and let's be honest,
not all of us have the same faith | 3:45:15 | 3:45:19 | |
they would deliver it, so as a
consequence we need to ensure we | 3:45:19 | 3:45:23 | |
have direct input from Westminster
in relation to ensuring there is | 3:45:23 | 3:45:30 | |
spend and the spend is made
correctly. | 3:45:30 | 3:45:34 | |
As has been said by our leader in
Westminster, the member for North | 3:45:34 | 3:45:41 | |
Belfast, great play was made in
relation to the confidence and | 3:45:41 | 3:45:44 | |
supply money. One of the messages
that we have been very, very sure in | 3:45:44 | 3:45:49 | |
putting forward with this is not our
money, this is money for the whole | 3:45:49 | 3:45:55 | |
of Northern Ireland and it is to
deliver for the whole of Northern | 3:45:55 | 3:45:59 | |
Ireland in areas where it is going
to have the most benefit. I want to | 3:45:59 | 3:46:03 | |
say that that is something vitally
important. It was interesting to | 3:46:03 | 3:46:06 | |
hear the chair of the Northern
Ireland select committee made | 3:46:06 | 3:46:10 | |
reference to actually the public
accounts department, the controller | 3:46:10 | 3:46:15 | |
and auditor general and public
accounts department within Northern | 3:46:15 | 3:46:18 | |
Ireland and some of the scrutiny
rules that might be required. He | 3:46:18 | 3:46:22 | |
made a suggestion of having, and
this is something, he made a | 3:46:22 | 3:46:26 | |
suggestion that we might well have a
scrutiny committee set up which | 3:46:26 | 3:46:30 | |
would be made up of MLAs from the
Northern Ireland assembly. Can I | 3:46:30 | 3:46:33 | |
say, that is not, your predecessor
already made a suggestion at one | 3:46:33 | 3:46:39 | |
stage this might be a way forward to
give the assembly some form of | 3:46:39 | 3:46:44 | |
business that it would be involved
in the scrutiny role of both | 3:46:44 | 3:46:47 | |
departments and also associated with
the PAC. But I think that borrowers | 3:46:47 | 3:46:55 | |
Northern Ireland is concerned, there
are those who actually said that | 3:46:55 | 3:46:58 | |
they welcome the budget coming
forward, but the rot goes Dutch but | 3:46:58 | 3:47:04 | |
there are those, mention has been
made of the previous Minister Foster | 3:47:04 | 3:47:07 | |
Martin O'Neill has been an local
media stating how sad it is to see | 3:47:07 | 3:47:16 | |
austerity being driven forward in
Northern Ireland. Can I say when I | 3:47:16 | 3:47:19 | |
look at this budget there is an
increase carried forward through | 3:47:19 | 3:47:23 | |
this budget to Northern Ireland, so
as a consequence we are getting our | 3:47:23 | 3:47:27 | |
enquiries. The money is additional
we have received for our confidence | 3:47:27 | 3:47:32 | |
and supply are over and above
anything else that is fair and we | 3:47:32 | 3:47:36 | |
will ensure that that does have some
direct benefits to Northern Ireland. | 3:47:36 | 3:47:40 | |
Also a point but I think we need to
be very careful about is that we do | 3:47:40 | 3:47:45 | |
not stand back and say we don't want
to see the Northern Ireland assembly | 3:47:45 | 3:47:50 | |
back. I for one having been a former
member of the Northern Ireland | 3:47:50 | 3:47:56 | |
assembly, see the benefits of
devolution. I believe it is the | 3:47:56 | 3:47:59 | |
right way forward for Northern
Ireland. Unfortunately, we have a | 3:47:59 | 3:48:04 | |
Damocles held to the back of our
necks here and has been held by one | 3:48:04 | 3:48:08 | |
party, and that party is Sinn Fein.
I really believe that we have got to | 3:48:08 | 3:48:11 | |
actually stand up to them and drive
forward and have even an assembly as | 3:48:11 | 3:48:16 | |
has been mentioned by the member
from Lewes, an assembly of the | 3:48:16 | 3:48:24 | |
willing. Let's be honest, there are
those who are willing to go in and | 3:48:24 | 3:48:29 | |
run Northern Ireland. We are willing
and wanting to go into an assembly | 3:48:29 | 3:48:33 | |
tomorrow. Unfortunately, there are
those who have set the red lines. We | 3:48:33 | 3:48:37 | |
hear red lines being mentioned all
the time now but they have set their | 3:48:37 | 3:48:40 | |
red lines, for issues which they
believe they could not drag through | 3:48:40 | 3:48:45 | |
the Northern Ireland assembly so
they used the talks process to drive | 3:48:45 | 3:48:48 | |
forward their own agenda with their
own issues. I believe that Irish | 3:48:48 | 3:48:54 | |
language is totally toxic to my
community and as a consequence, they | 3:48:54 | 3:48:58 | |
knew it would be totally toxic. I
for one believe those are issues | 3:48:58 | 3:49:01 | |
that were just being put on the
table to actually drive us further | 3:49:01 | 3:49:05 | |
down the road with the Irish
Republic proposing to have elections | 3:49:05 | 3:49:11 | |
in the Irish Republic, I believe
Sinn Fein were of a view to ensuring | 3:49:11 | 3:49:14 | |
that they did not let the Northern
Ireland assembly get up and running. | 3:49:14 | 3:49:19 | |
They were keeping their eye on what
was happening in the Republic of | 3:49:19 | 3:49:22 | |
Ireland. I will.
I thank the honourable member for | 3:49:22 | 3:49:26 | |
giving way. On that point to about
the Irish language. The DUP made | 3:49:26 | 3:49:31 | |
Frittelli we do not object to people
speaking the Irish language, having | 3:49:31 | 3:49:35 | |
their children educated in the Irish
language and, indeed, the Government | 3:49:35 | 3:49:40 | |
in Northern Ireland has contributed
millions of pounds towards the Irish | 3:49:40 | 3:49:44 | |
language and its promotion in
education. The fact is when a Sinn | 3:49:44 | 3:49:49 | |
Fein spokesperson says that every
word spoken in Irish is another | 3:49:49 | 3:49:52 | |
bullet fired in the cause of Irish
unity, they politicise a language | 3:49:52 | 3:49:59 | |
that means it becomes a very
divisive issue in Northern Ireland. | 3:49:59 | 3:50:03 | |
I thank the honourable member for
bringing that forward this | 3:50:03 | 3:50:08 | |
afternoon, but I can't say I agree
with him 100%. I don't necessarily | 3:50:08 | 3:50:16 | |
hold to speaking Irish but I
wouldn't be against those who want | 3:50:16 | 3:50:18 | |
to learn it and speak it, but I
believe there should be a fairness | 3:50:18 | 3:50:22 | |
and equality in relation to how
these cultural issues are funded, | 3:50:22 | 3:50:26 | |
and I think that is something else
that needs to be locked up. That is | 3:50:26 | 3:50:30 | |
something that I think meets
political direction for the | 3:50:30 | 3:50:33 | |
following year's budget. I
appreciate we are dealing with areas | 3:50:33 | 3:50:36 | |
where there were major, whenever we
look at what has been put forward in | 3:50:36 | 3:50:42 | |
the bill, there are areas and
departments that did not make their | 3:50:42 | 3:50:45 | |
full spend. There were other
departments that if you are coming | 3:50:45 | 3:50:47 | |
forward to the assembly, you'd be
having their accounts being | 3:50:47 | 3:50:53 | |
qualified in relation to overspend
and we would have to make a comment | 3:50:53 | 3:50:57 | |
in the account associated with
overspend some departments have | 3:50:57 | 3:51:02 | |
made. I can see there are those who
probably should have learned a | 3:51:02 | 3:51:07 | |
lesson and a little bit more prudent
accounting. | 3:51:07 | 3:51:11 | |
I appreciate negotiations have gone
on in bringing forward the statement | 3:51:11 | 3:51:15 | |
which came forward, the Budget
Statement which came forward last | 3:51:15 | 3:51:17 | |
week. I note departments will have
had some input in relation to what | 3:51:17 | 3:51:22 | |
that entailed. I want to say that we
want to seek political direction in | 3:51:22 | 3:51:29 | |
ensuring that the spend is made to
benefit the whole of Northern | 3:51:29 | 3:51:32 | |
Ireland for the forthcoming 2018-19
year and I, for one, Assad we are | 3:51:32 | 3:51:42 | |
here to discuss this. It will be
worse when we're having to discuss | 3:51:42 | 3:51:45 | |
the budget in June. -- are sad we're
here to discuss this. Of us will | 3:51:45 | 3:51:52 | |
have a pet pet project we want to
include in that debate and we might | 3:51:52 | 3:51:55 | |
drag it out but I can say the debate
today, I hope the messages going | 3:51:55 | 3:51:59 | |
forward is loud and clear that we
are here because one party failed to | 3:51:59 | 3:52:03 | |
deliver a budget in 2018-19 and
20,000 17-18 and all the blame | 3:52:03 | 3:52:11 | |
should be laid at the House of Sinn
Fein over what they have caused | 3:52:11 | 3:52:15 | |
Northern Ireland to suffer in the
last year. Thank you. | 3:52:15 | 3:52:19 | |
Always a pleasure to speak at any
stage in any debate in this house. I | 3:52:22 | 3:52:27 | |
do look forward to the opportunity
to be very rear gunner, to use | 3:52:27 | 3:52:36 | |
terminology very apt in the Armed
Forces and services. This debate is | 3:52:36 | 3:52:39 | |
not one we wanted to bring to this
house, but it is one we have here | 3:52:39 | 3:52:44 | |
and we must do it. I congratulate
and thank the Secretary of State and | 3:52:44 | 3:52:48 | |
the Minister of State for their
contributions to make this happen. | 3:52:48 | 3:52:53 | |
I am not here either to plead for
direct rule because I am as | 3:52:58 | 3:53:03 | |
committed to devolution as this
party, and as part of the old | 3:53:03 | 3:53:07 | |
Assembly from 1988. The work in the
Assembly was always hard, to try to | 3:53:07 | 3:53:16 | |
plough forward against cost and
opposition, and sometimes in this | 3:53:16 | 3:53:18 | |
place as well, and yet it was
workable over that period of time | 3:53:18 | 3:53:24 | |
because people knew they were
elected to do a job. There are MLAs | 3:53:24 | 3:53:34 | |
who have more than capable of doing
their job but stopped by a red line | 3:53:34 | 3:53:38 | |
which may as well be the Red Sea.
The problem is we haven't got Moses | 3:53:38 | 3:53:42 | |
to step forward. Nonetheless the
people who are being caught in this | 3:53:42 | 3:53:48 | |
are everyday people from all sides
of community, rich and poor, | 3:53:48 | 3:53:54 | |
catholic and Protestant, Jew and
Muslim, healthy and sick, old and | 3:53:54 | 3:53:59 | |
young, or are paying the price for
the red line erected by Sinn Fein | 3:53:59 | 3:54:02 | |
which says nothing is more or
greater than the Irish language act. | 3:54:02 | 3:54:10 | |
No child that needs a classroom
assistant, no rope that needs | 3:54:10 | 3:54:18 | |
prepared supersedes the importance
of an Irish language act. It is for | 3:54:18 | 3:54:24 | |
this reason I have set the budget,
made the ministerial decisions, get | 3:54:24 | 3:54:29 | |
the process in place and do what we
are capable of doing ourselves and | 3:54:29 | 3:54:33 | |
prevented from doing back home in
the Assembly. Too many constituents | 3:54:33 | 3:54:38 | |
are need for this to be prolonged
any more. At the end of the day we | 3:54:38 | 3:54:43 | |
are doing this for all of the people
of the province. Members said last | 3:54:43 | 3:54:48 | |
week, I suppose that money will go
to unionist areas, it will go to all | 3:54:48 | 3:54:53 | |
parts of the province. It is very
clear where it will be allocated and | 3:54:53 | 3:54:57 | |
for the record we put that in place.
Would be honourable member agree | 3:54:57 | 3:55:05 | |
with me there is a substantial
contrast win the narrow focus Sinn | 3:55:05 | 3:55:08 | |
Fein talks to bring the Assembly
down and the much wider and | 3:55:08 | 3:55:12 | |
comprehensive focus we took in terms
of the confidence and supply motion | 3:55:12 | 3:55:17 | |
which benefits everybody without
exception in Northern Ireland? That | 3:55:17 | 3:55:24 | |
is absolutely correct, and we were
committed to bringing advantages for | 3:55:24 | 3:55:29 | |
everyone across the whole of the
province and did so so all of the | 3:55:29 | 3:55:32 | |
people of this province, this money
has been committed to them. The | 3:55:32 | 3:55:39 | |
losers are people from all corners
of the province. Northern Ireland is | 3:55:39 | 3:55:47 | |
a disadvantage today because of Sinn
Fein's negativity so the people to | 3:55:47 | 3:55:52 | |
blame for this are quite rightly
them. I have parents tearing their | 3:55:52 | 3:55:57 | |
hair out, that their child could not
have help from teaching assistants. | 3:55:57 | 3:56:13 | |
The need for a classroom assistant,
the need for education assessments | 3:56:13 | 3:56:17 | |
are very clear. Schools such as
those who provide specialists and | 3:56:17 | 3:56:25 | |
help children | 3:56:25 | 3:56:35 | |
thrive. This should not happen, the
school has raised money and they | 3:56:36 | 3:56:47 | |
don't know what is happening. This I
believe is unacceptable and yet our | 3:56:47 | 3:56:51 | |
schools are forced to accept this,
with the caveat blame the | 3:56:51 | 3:56:57 | |
politicians on the Hill, it is Sinn
Fein to blame. The blame lies with | 3:56:57 | 3:57:05 | |
Sinn Fein. Special schools is a big
issue on the news yesterday. I had a | 3:57:05 | 3:57:14 | |
number of phone calls, as the
members will have had as well, and | 3:57:14 | 3:57:25 | |
parents in my constituency phoned to
say they are concerned about where | 3:57:25 | 3:57:30 | |
their child will lend up and what
will happen. Those who do great work | 3:57:30 | 3:57:39 | |
with disadvantaged young adults as
well, and we have problems which are | 3:57:39 | 3:57:43 | |
very apparent and need addressed
right now. Money is flowing in for | 3:57:43 | 3:57:49 | |
the Irish language schools and other
budgets, this is before an Irish | 3:57:49 | 3:57:55 | |
language act comes into being. I
have constituents saying where is | 3:57:55 | 3:58:00 | |
the quality for my school, when
Irish language schools are as happy | 3:58:00 | 3:58:07 | |
as Larry because they get all the
money they want. Where is equality? | 3:58:07 | 3:58:12 | |
We hear Sinn Fein talk about
equality, let's have equality for my | 3:58:12 | 3:58:17 | |
constituents and constituents across
the rest of the province. Where is | 3:58:17 | 3:58:23 | |
the fairness? How can I explain this
to a child who does not speak Irish? | 3:58:23 | 3:58:37 | |
One college were waiting for a new
build, the decision over that stance | 3:58:37 | 3:58:43 | |
clear as well so these are problems
we have got to deal with and every | 3:58:43 | 3:58:48 | |
school in my constituency and
everybody's constituency across the | 3:58:48 | 3:58:53 | |
whole of the province deals with
these issues, people complaining | 3:58:53 | 3:58:56 | |
they cannot access their GPs, and
then GPs complaining they cannot get | 3:58:56 | 3:59:04 | |
work done urgently. We need to
relieve the burden on GP surgeries. | 3:59:04 | 3:59:13 | |
These are things we are dealing with
everyday. Hopefully this budget and | 3:59:13 | 3:59:18 | |
the allocation of money and
ministerial decisions that will come | 3:59:18 | 3:59:21 | |
will eventually make sure these
systems are sorted. Again we have | 3:59:21 | 3:59:27 | |
A&Es bursting at the seams, and then
in holes above the normal. I | 3:59:27 | 3:59:35 | |
remember my partner telling me the
story about hospitals, with two | 3:59:35 | 3:59:42 | |
people to bed in every ward.
Something needs to be done. | 3:59:42 | 3:59:50 | |
Regarding funding which would
improve life for people with | 3:59:50 | 3:59:57 | |
diabetes, monies need to be released
for the nurses who specialise in | 3:59:57 | 4:00:01 | |
this field and they need to be
budgeted for. Type one diabetics in | 4:00:01 | 4:00:05 | |
my area those with the largest
number of type one diabetics | 4:00:05 | 4:00:12 | |
percentage-wise in Northern Ireland
in the whole of the UK, these are | 4:00:12 | 4:00:17 | |
key issues in our constituency, in
my constituency and constituencies | 4:00:17 | 4:00:22 | |
across the whole of the province. We
need to bridge the pay gap for | 4:00:22 | 4:00:26 | |
nurses and this will not be done
without ministerial approval. We | 4:00:26 | 4:00:30 | |
need care packages to allow Alderley
people to retain independence for as | 4:00:30 | 4:00:36 | |
long as possible. This cannot be
signed off without ministerial | 4:00:36 | 4:00:40 | |
direction. We need to ensure people
on restricted diets can access food | 4:00:40 | 4:00:45 | |
without having to make the case. We
also have the sugar levy tax which | 4:00:45 | 4:00:50 | |
until that monies will come to
Northern Ireland, we need someone in | 4:00:50 | 4:00:57 | |
place to make those decisions. | 4:00:57 | 4:01:07 | |
The scheme can do well addressing
the issue of obesity, and I know my | 4:01:08 | 4:01:13 | |
honourable friend and members are
well aware of that but we want to | 4:01:13 | 4:01:16 | |
six a scheme like this across the
whole of Northern Ireland. It is | 4:01:16 | 4:01:20 | |
something we should be doing. We
also need to... And the funding we | 4:01:20 | 4:01:25 | |
secured, that 1.4 billion. We need
to have the allocated on put in | 4:01:25 | 4:01:32 | |
place as well. We need the Bella
Hitch bypass that benefit so many | 4:01:32 | 4:01:36 | |
people in my constituency and in
Southdown. The MP refuses to come | 4:01:36 | 4:01:48 | |
here. We are making the point, we
are here to speak role of those | 4:01:48 | 4:01:53 | |
people, I speak from my constituents
and maybe some of his constituents. | 4:01:53 | 4:01:58 | |
I'm very grateful to my honourable
friend for giving way, and the | 4:01:58 | 4:02:01 | |
things I've asked to intervene
because I want to put forward an | 4:02:01 | 4:02:05 | |
alternative proposal in the road
widening scheme, that is not the | 4:02:05 | 4:02:12 | |
case. But my honourable friend has
mentioned on a number of occasions | 4:02:12 | 4:02:16 | |
that something and many things
cannot progress because there's a | 4:02:16 | 4:02:20 | |
lack ministerial appointments. Does
the honourable friend agree it would | 4:02:20 | 4:02:25 | |
be useful for the Minister to
indicate whether he is considered | 4:02:25 | 4:02:30 | |
paragraph four of article four of
the departments of Northern Ireland | 4:02:30 | 4:02:35 | |
order 1999 which indicates a senior
official can take the decisions for | 4:02:35 | 4:02:39 | |
those which fault of their
departments in the absence of a | 4:02:39 | 4:02:43 | |
minister. I banged my honourable
friend for his intervention and for | 4:02:43 | 4:02:47 | |
his solution, and direction to the
Minister and the ministers will | 4:02:47 | 4:02:52 | |
fiercely correspond with their civil
servants to find out how it works. | 4:02:52 | 4:02:57 | |
On more than one occasion we have
seen it in action, so if it can | 4:02:57 | 4:03:02 | |
happen in one department it can
happen in all departments so let's | 4:03:02 | 4:03:04 | |
get that in place. The permanent
secretary needs ministerial | 4:03:04 | 4:03:10 | |
direction. Will someone sign off on
a bypass please because I would love | 4:03:10 | 4:03:16 | |
to see that happening. Too many
potholes in roads are damaging cars, | 4:03:16 | 4:03:26 | |
bringing people to my office who
have never seen an elected | 4:03:26 | 4:03:32 | |
representative before but do so over
this matter. I mention one because | 4:03:32 | 4:03:36 | |
miraculously after a lot of
correspondence there was pothole | 4:03:36 | 4:03:42 | |
which I referred to the Department
on a number of occasions and the | 4:03:42 | 4:03:45 | |
last time I referred dimension to
the gentleman that if we don't fix | 4:03:45 | 4:03:49 | |
that potholes soon, we will be
shaking hands with an Australian | 4:03:49 | 4:03:53 | |
because it was so deep. Cars were
getting damaged everyday. Now it is | 4:03:53 | 4:03:57 | |
fixed and thank the Lord for that.
We want to remain competitive | 4:03:57 | 4:04:03 | |
globally through the Brexit
uncertainty. We decision-makers to | 4:04:03 | 4:04:08 | |
bring us in line with mainland
practices. Someone needs to make | 4:04:08 | 4:04:13 | |
this decision. We have a budget in
front of us referring to the | 4:04:13 | 4:04:21 | |
agriculture sector which is very
important and when it comes to | 4:04:21 | 4:04:24 | |
capital build, I asked the question,
where is the monies for the build | 4:04:24 | 4:04:30 | |
scheme? The scheme you have in
England, Scotland and Wales but we | 4:04:30 | 4:04:37 | |
don't have it in Northern Ireland so
we would like to see that in place | 4:04:37 | 4:04:42 | |
as well. Organisations are doing a
tremendous job but cannot operate | 4:04:42 | 4:04:47 | |
under uncertainty. Again, we look to
the budget and to perhaps the | 4:04:47 | 4:04:57 | |
permanent secretary with the
blessing of the Minister of State | 4:04:57 | 4:04:59 | |
and the Secretary of State doing
that. For all of these reasons, Mr | 4:04:59 | 4:05:04 | |
Deputy Speaker, I'm bringing to you
what I should have brought to the | 4:05:04 | 4:05:08 | |
ministers and safe while setting the
budget allocates the powers as well, | 4:05:08 | 4:05:11 | |
as my right honourable friend for
east Belfast referred to and | 4:05:11 | 4:05:15 | |
referred to very well. To those
capable of making decisions and will | 4:05:15 | 4:05:18 | |
make the decision to stop this
floundering about which has left our | 4:05:18 | 4:05:22 | |
constituents frustrated,
unrepresented on second-class | 4:05:22 | 4:05:27 | |
citizens. I would ask consideration
is given to the issues raised today | 4:05:27 | 4:05:30 | |
when signing the budget of more than
this, that the system is enacted to | 4:05:30 | 4:05:35 | |
run again as a country instead of
being in limbo and no man's land, | 4:05:35 | 4:05:40 | |
the austerity programme. They have
tried to break the Assembly, they | 4:05:40 | 4:05:46 | |
have tried to destroy Northern
Ireland, and no matter what language | 4:05:46 | 4:05:49 | |
you say that in, it is wrong. Let's
hope this is the first stage in | 4:05:49 | 4:05:55 | |
stopping just that. I conclude with
this last comment. Northern Ireland | 4:05:55 | 4:05:59 | |
has weathered the last year but that
heavy price has been paid by | 4:05:59 | 4:06:04 | |
voluntary sector workers, by
community groups, by our NHS, our | 4:06:04 | 4:06:09 | |
education boards and schools. They
are done paying for someone else's | 4:06:09 | 4:06:13 | |
refusal and I look to the Secretary
of State and the Minister of State | 4:06:13 | 4:06:17 | |
and this Government to take the
power, make the decisions, get the | 4:06:17 | 4:06:21 | |
country back on its feet and put
Sinn Fein back in the corner they | 4:06:21 | 4:06:28 | |
already skulk in. Thank you for
calling me in this debate, | 4:06:28 | 4:06:35 | |
understand the Minister of State
will be replying to many of the | 4:06:35 | 4:06:38 | |
points made throughout this debate
and I want to add to his list of | 4:06:38 | 4:06:41 | |
replies that I think are absolutely
vital for going forward. I know the | 4:06:41 | 4:06:48 | |
Minister of State since he's been
appointed in looking at the budget | 4:06:48 | 4:06:51 | |
and how we have got to this point,
he's also created an expectation | 4:06:51 | 4:06:56 | |
because he's been very diligent,
he's been going around Northern | 4:06:56 | 4:06:59 | |
Ireland and visiting the Police
Service of Northern Ireland, and | 4:06:59 | 4:07:04 | |
with many other groups and along
with the Secretary of State making a | 4:07:04 | 4:07:08 | |
case of listening to needs, and I
suppose creating an expectation | 4:07:08 | 4:07:13 | |
those needs will rightly be
addressed. Of course to echo | 4:07:13 | 4:07:17 | |
everything that has been said by
every other member in this House, we | 4:07:17 | 4:07:22 | |
would rather those expectations were
being addressed by a functioning | 4:07:22 | 4:07:26 | |
Northern Ireland executive and
Assembly. However, we have to smell | 4:07:26 | 4:07:31 | |
the coffee at some point and
recognise that is not the case at | 4:07:31 | 4:07:34 | |
the present time and will probably
not be the case for the remainder | 4:07:34 | 4:07:37 | |
part of this year realistically
speaking. If that is the case, I | 4:07:37 | 4:07:45 | |
think that given between now and
June the Minister is going to have | 4:07:45 | 4:07:49 | |
to look at the next budget and how
we deal with the incoming | 4:07:49 | 4:07:54 | |
expenditure and setting targets, I
think it is important he does cast | 4:07:54 | 4:07:57 | |
his mind onto certain matters. | 4:07:57 | 4:08:03 | |
I want to focus on one part of the
portfolio which I have | 4:08:03 | 4:08:07 | |
responsibility for, the issue of
sport. We have a very successful | 4:08:07 | 4:08:11 | |
sport tourism portfolio. In a
moment... | 4:08:11 | 4:08:14 | |
Indeed, in the coming year we are
about to have the northern Ireland | 4:08:14 | 4:08:21 | |
golf tourism really take off. And,
of course, that has been started in | 4:08:21 | 4:08:25 | |
the last week by the success of Rory
McIlroy setting a particular | 4:08:25 | 4:08:30 | |
standard of achievement. Of course,
I will give away. I thank the | 4:08:30 | 4:08:36 | |
honourable member for giving way.
When he speaks of smelling the | 4:08:36 | 4:08:40 | |
coffee and the importance to our
economy of driving things forward, | 4:08:40 | 4:08:43 | |
will be aware that one of the
success stories, one of many in | 4:08:43 | 4:08:49 | |
Northern Ireland's success stories
in the past 14 months is the pure | 4:08:49 | 4:08:52 | |
roast coffee company in my
constituency, which has now struck a | 4:08:52 | 4:08:56 | |
deal to supply coffee across China.
So there is good news and we should | 4:08:56 | 4:09:01 | |
welcome it.
The vast amount of tea drunk in the | 4:09:01 | 4:09:11 | |
population it is good we are now
exporting Coffey! And indeed to the | 4:09:11 | 4:09:15 | |
largest market in the world. But
turning very specifically to the | 4:09:15 | 4:09:19 | |
issue of golf tourism, we will have
an influx of golf tourists coming to | 4:09:19 | 4:09:24 | |
Northern Ireland for the Irish open
and indeed the Open in 2019. The | 4:09:24 | 4:09:32 | |
organisation but more importantly
golf clubs in Northern Ireland and | 4:09:32 | 4:09:35 | |
Royal Portrush in particular will
need certainty about the finance for | 4:09:35 | 4:09:46 | |
those organisations and tournaments.
I am asking the Minister of State to | 4:09:46 | 4:09:49 | |
make sure that immediately and that
there is no delay on this, and that | 4:09:49 | 4:09:54 | |
immediately those organisations get
certainty and clarity about finance | 4:09:54 | 4:09:58 | |
expenditure for golf tourism, in
particular. This is going to be the | 4:09:58 | 4:10:02 | |
single largest shop window for
Northern Ireland going forward. A | 4:10:02 | 4:10:07 | |
very positive shop window and it
needs to therefore been properly | 4:10:07 | 4:10:12 | |
underwritten by the terms of
expenditure. | 4:10:12 | 4:10:14 | |
I thank my honourable friend for
giving way. Would my honourable | 4:10:14 | 4:10:18 | |
friend agree with me that we have an
excellent number of ambassadors for | 4:10:18 | 4:10:22 | |
golf in Northern Ireland? Including
extending congratulations to our | 4:10:22 | 4:10:27 | |
very own Rory McIlroy, and that this
is the perfect time with Rory | 4:10:27 | 4:10:35 | |
McIlroy back on form and winning
across the world to maximise in | 4:10:35 | 4:10:38 | |
terms of tourism and golf in
Northern Ireland, yes, it would | 4:10:38 | 4:10:42 | |
always be we mentioned Rory, Darren
and Graeme but now there are so | 4:10:42 | 4:10:49 | |
many, I can't get into naming them
all the time because you might at | 4:10:49 | 4:10:53 | |
offend one of them for leaving them
out! | 4:10:53 | 4:10:56 | |
The member for South Belfast is
absolutely right, we do have a great | 4:10:56 | 4:10:59 | |
golf ambassador in Rory and many
others. Of course I will give way | 4:10:59 | 4:11:04 | |
stop here I am very grateful indeed,
Mr Deputy Speaker. | 4:11:04 | 4:11:08 | |
I'm sure the honourable member is
coming to the line in his comments | 4:11:08 | 4:11:11 | |
that makes it quite career that Rory
McIlroy trained in the Holyrood golf | 4:11:11 | 4:11:23 | |
club and to put it on the map and
I'm sure there will be tourism to go | 4:11:23 | 4:11:27 | |
and see where he trained to be so
successful. That's not where I want | 4:11:27 | 4:11:34 | |
to be, come on Mr Paisley.
I will put the sandwich away and | 4:11:34 | 4:11:40 | |
come to another discipline, Mr
Deputy Speaker, if you don't mind. | 4:11:40 | 4:11:45 | |
The last executive, in a wisdom,
before they were put out of their | 4:11:45 | 4:11:50 | |
position, very kindly pointed me
chairman for motorsport. There are | 4:11:50 | 4:12:02 | |
motorsport events for January occur
in Northern Ireland and before June, | 4:12:02 | 4:12:07 | |
very significantly the North West
200 will require financial certainty | 4:12:07 | 4:12:11 | |
from the Minister of State. I would
like to make sure he is able to give | 4:12:11 | 4:12:16 | |
that financial certainty and ensures
he talks to the relevant departments | 4:12:16 | 4:12:21 | |
and indicates that proper finance
will be put in place for the largest | 4:12:21 | 4:12:24 | |
outdoor sporting event that occurs
not only in Northern Ireland, but in | 4:12:24 | 4:12:30 | |
the entire island of Ireland. It
attracts over 100,000 people | 4:12:30 | 4:12:35 | |
annually to the triangle and a
significant for sport in Northern | 4:12:35 | 4:12:45 | |
Ireland and the community relations.
Motorsport is one of those things | 4:12:45 | 4:12:48 | |
that attract all people of all
classes and creeds and is something | 4:12:48 | 4:12:53 | |
Northern Ireland excels in and it is
something that requires certainty, | 4:12:53 | 4:12:56 | |
in terms of the provision of support
to allow that race to go ahead. The | 4:12:56 | 4:13:03 | |
Ulster Grand Prix is also
significantly also requiring | 4:13:03 | 4:13:14 | |
certainty before the August
timetable. I would ask the Minister | 4:13:14 | 4:13:17 | |
of State to look into that and to
ensure that those departments are | 4:13:17 | 4:13:22 | |
properly told by him, told by an
Minister, that funding must be put | 4:13:22 | 4:13:27 | |
in place.
Looking forward to 2021, the youth | 4:13:27 | 4:13:30 | |
Commonwealth Games, plans are
already being put in place now for | 4:13:30 | 4:13:36 | |
the Youth Commonwealth Games. It is
a central certainty is given to the | 4:13:36 | 4:13:40 | |
organisation so they can market
Northern Ireland around the world as | 4:13:40 | 4:13:44 | |
the location, as the destination for
those Games. That won't happen in | 4:13:44 | 4:13:48 | |
the six months before it, that has
to happen years in advance and I | 4:13:48 | 4:13:52 | |
would ask the Minister of State to
put his mind to making sure the | 4:13:52 | 4:13:56 | |
department is put on notice that he
will be breathing down their necks | 4:13:56 | 4:14:00 | |
to make sure there are proper
resources for these proper showcase | 4:14:00 | 4:14:05 | |
event for Northern Ireland is in
place. Thank you. | 4:14:05 | 4:14:11 | |
Thank you very, very much indeed Mr
Deputy Speaker. May I say, we've had | 4:14:11 | 4:14:16 | |
an extraordinarily interesting
afternoon which started off with | 4:14:16 | 4:14:18 | |
almost a political first, almost a
Parliamentary first. A Secretary of | 4:14:18 | 4:14:22 | |
State came to the dispatch box
longing to give up power. Desperate | 4:14:22 | 4:14:27 | |
to actually Slough off some of the
responsibilities of office when the | 4:14:27 | 4:14:32 | |
rest of us, obviously I excuse
myself and honourable colleagues | 4:14:32 | 4:14:36 | |
present, most of us are climbing the
greasy pole with rapidity but no, | 4:14:36 | 4:14:40 | |
the Secretary of State spurns the
trappings of authority and wants to | 4:14:40 | 4:14:43 | |
have no part of it. I have to say, I
have an enormous amount of sympathy, | 4:14:43 | 4:14:47 | |
because in all honesty, what we have
heard this afternoon is almost an | 4:14:47 | 4:14:51 | |
admission of failure. We've heard an
admission whereby there are issues | 4:14:51 | 4:14:55 | |
we are discussing here that we
simply shouldn't be discussing. We | 4:14:55 | 4:15:01 | |
actually do need to talk about the
things that really matter to this | 4:15:01 | 4:15:05 | |
house and four representatives in
Northern Ireland to talk about | 4:15:05 | 4:15:07 | |
things that matter there.
We heard an extremely forensic | 4:15:07 | 4:15:11 | |
analysis from the member for South
West Wiltshire on the bill. He'd | 4:15:11 | 4:15:15 | |
brought to the build the same
scalpel like skill he used to bring | 4:15:15 | 4:15:19 | |
to human beings, most of whom
survived. I have to say that in this | 4:15:19 | 4:15:23 | |
particular case, to break down the
bill in the wake he did, | 4:15:23 | 4:15:27 | |
particularly in his comments on the
role of the audit office, and he | 4:15:27 | 4:15:31 | |
said quite correctly that permanent
secretaries should not be dealing | 4:15:31 | 4:15:35 | |
with the closure of health facility.
I think in many ways that brought us | 4:15:35 | 4:15:39 | |
to the nub of what we were talking
about this afternoon. The honourable | 4:15:39 | 4:15:41 | |
lady for Edinburgh said she was
reluctant agreement, but I think in | 4:15:41 | 4:15:47 | |
a very potent phrase she said, we've
got to somehow keep the light and | 4:15:47 | 4:15:51 | |
heat on. We don't normally talk
about heating in these debates, but | 4:15:51 | 4:15:55 | |
in this particular case, keeping the
lights on heat and was entirely | 4:15:55 | 4:16:00 | |
appropriate. I think the
contribution from the honourable | 4:16:00 | 4:16:03 | |
member of Lewes has attracted much
support and comment. I think she | 4:16:03 | 4:16:06 | |
spoke not just from the heart and a
position of authority that I think | 4:16:06 | 4:16:10 | |
she spoke the essential truth in her
contribution. I think the references | 4:16:10 | 4:16:15 | |
she made to the bill ferocity deal
were very, very potent, Mr Deputy | 4:16:15 | 4:16:21 | |
Speaker, because it is matters like
that that really concern the people | 4:16:21 | 4:16:24 | |
of Northern Ireland rather more than
what we are saying here in this | 4:16:24 | 4:16:27 | |
chamber.
I have to say, the honourable member | 4:16:27 | 4:16:32 | |
for East Antrim showed it again what
an immense loss he is to the world | 4:16:32 | 4:16:36 | |
of higher education. When I think
there is an entire education of | 4:16:36 | 4:16:40 | |
schoolchildren in Northern Ireland
who learned that his feet, and | 4:16:40 | 4:16:42 | |
studied underneath him and
survived... But he gave us a | 4:16:42 | 4:16:50 | |
masterclass again, but he also
talked about misconceptions and I | 4:16:50 | 4:16:54 | |
think he is absolutely right to
refer to that. And like his pupils, | 4:16:54 | 4:16:58 | |
I feel honoured and a better person
for having heard that. | 4:16:58 | 4:17:03 | |
The honourable member for North
Belfast, I have to say, widened the | 4:17:03 | 4:17:08 | |
scope of the bill somewhat and
brought us to Brexit among other | 4:17:08 | 4:17:12 | |
things. He incorporated an
extraordinary amount of detail but | 4:17:12 | 4:17:15 | |
in many ways this is quite correct,
because this bill does impact on so | 4:17:15 | 4:17:19 | |
many other areas. He also talked
about going about the peoples | 4:17:19 | 4:17:24 | |
business. Mr Deputy Speaker, that is
a very potent phrase. He is actually | 4:17:24 | 4:17:29 | |
talking about, we should be going
about the people's business in our | 4:17:29 | 4:17:33 | |
constituencies, whether they be in
Northern Ireland or here. Shouldn't | 4:17:33 | 4:17:36 | |
be doing this and I think the right
honourable member for North Belfast | 4:17:36 | 4:17:42 | |
spoke not just good sense but with
great, with a sense of rightness on | 4:17:42 | 4:17:47 | |
inside and I think it was very, very
good to hear it. | 4:17:47 | 4:17:50 | |
The honourable lady from Belfast
South, please I hope she will not | 4:17:50 | 4:17:55 | |
think me patronising when I say in
the short she has been in this House | 4:17:55 | 4:17:59 | |
she has grown in stature and spoken
superbly again. She said, again from | 4:17:59 | 4:18:03 | |
the heart, that today was a
Saturday. In that I think she | 4:18:03 | 4:18:07 | |
enunciated the spirit of the House.
She talked about the demographic | 4:18:07 | 4:18:11 | |
deficit and I think in passing she
referred to the paucity of members | 4:18:11 | 4:18:17 | |
here present. Mr Deputy Speaker,
that is their loss, because we have | 4:18:17 | 4:18:22 | |
heard some excellent speakers today,
including the honourable member for | 4:18:22 | 4:18:25 | |
Belfast South, who also talked about
the impact on SEM and education, | 4:18:25 | 4:18:30 | |
which are issues we should be
concentrating on. We should actually | 4:18:30 | 4:18:32 | |
talking about them.
The honourable member for South | 4:18:32 | 4:18:36 | |
Antrim talked about the roads that
needed repairing and problems in | 4:18:36 | 4:18:40 | |
health and higher education and may
I prevail upon your legendary | 4:18:40 | 4:18:46 | |
generosity of spirit, Mr Deputy
Speaker, to say was a great pleasure | 4:18:46 | 4:18:48 | |
yesterday to meet the Honourable
gentleman from South Antrim with | 4:18:48 | 4:18:54 | |
Grayson Nesbitt, who worked in the
Department of Finance, who came here | 4:18:54 | 4:18:57 | |
to receive her well-deserved OBE,
accompanied by her delightful | 4:18:57 | 4:19:01 | |
daughter. Normally when the
honourable gentleman the Strangford | 4:19:01 | 4:19:07 | |
stands I feel we have saved the very
best for last. | 4:19:07 | 4:19:11 | |
I thought he was to be the last
week. He introduced us to the giant | 4:19:11 | 4:19:15 | |
pothole of Newton arts. Now this
will, I have no doubt, be one of the | 4:19:15 | 4:19:23 | |
signature destinations in Northern
Ireland before long. We had the | 4:19:23 | 4:19:27 | |
giant 's Causeway and the walled
city and we will soon have the giant | 4:19:27 | 4:19:31 | |
pothole of Newton arts. It would be
difficult not to score a hole in one | 4:19:31 | 4:19:39 | |
where that giant pothole is
concerned, but the thought of the | 4:19:39 | 4:19:43 | |
DUP opening an Australian branch
accidentally is one that doesn't | 4:19:43 | 4:19:50 | |
worry me over much but I understand
a certain concerns being expressed | 4:19:50 | 4:19:54 | |
in the Antipodes. He spoke about
important things, like bursaries for | 4:19:54 | 4:19:58 | |
medical students, and I think it is
that combination of the local, the | 4:19:58 | 4:20:06 | |
minute I, the real bread and butter
issues of his local politics with | 4:20:06 | 4:20:10 | |
the big issues that make him such an
excellent speaker. | 4:20:10 | 4:20:13 | |
The honourable gentleman for North
Antrim, I have to say, suddenly led | 4:20:13 | 4:20:19 | |
us into a completely new direction.
The entire House almost led to its | 4:20:19 | 4:20:24 | |
feet in animation as we started to
talk about golf and tourism and the | 4:20:24 | 4:20:28 | |
Northwest 300. I think we could have
actually carried on for another | 4:20:28 | 4:20:33 | |
couple of hours like this. Yes...
When you are talking about, when the | 4:20:33 | 4:20:43 | |
honourable gentleman is talking
about the Northwest 300, Portrush, | 4:20:43 | 4:20:49 | |
Port Stewart, that triangle, is it a
sheer coincidence, I ask my friend, | 4:20:49 | 4:20:54 | |
that right in the middle of that
triangle is the Bushmills | 4:20:54 | 4:20:58 | |
distillery? LAUGHTER
I'm more familiar with Bob Stewart | 4:20:58 | 4:21:06 | |
than Paul Stewart but there may be a
distillery along that route. I also | 4:21:06 | 4:21:10 | |
remember there is demountable
traffic signs and street furniture | 4:21:10 | 4:21:14 | |
which can be moved to the side,
thanks to Joey Dunlop's | 4:21:14 | 4:21:19 | |
inspirational leadership. Mr Deputy
Speaker, although I have referred to | 4:21:19 | 4:21:23 | |
your legendary generosity of spirit,
I think even you might be tempted to | 4:21:23 | 4:21:27 | |
rise and for me to have to use it
were we to go into more discussions. | 4:21:27 | 4:21:32 | |
Mr Deputy Speaker, can I just say,
ultimately we are talking about a | 4:21:32 | 4:21:37 | |
subject that none of us really want
to be addressing here in this | 4:21:37 | 4:21:42 | |
chamber. Last Thursday I attended
the excellent housing conference | 4:21:42 | 4:21:49 | |
organised and run on the Titanic
centre. To hear people talking about | 4:21:49 | 4:21:52 | |
housing issues in Northern Ireland,
the problems of substandard housing, | 4:21:52 | 4:21:56 | |
the problems of needing to adapt
properties for people with special | 4:21:56 | 4:21:58 | |
needs, those are the issues we
should be talking about. This | 4:21:58 | 4:22:02 | |
afternoon we talked about the York
Street instant change. It is that | 4:22:02 | 4:22:06 | |
that should be discussed in
Stormont, not in Westminster. It is | 4:22:06 | 4:22:10 | |
important and it matters to the
people of Northern Ireland. We | 4:22:10 | 4:22:14 | |
shouldn't be having to even mention
that here and now. The honourable | 4:22:14 | 4:22:18 | |
gentleman for North West
Cambridgeshire was referred to | 4:22:18 | 4:22:21 | |
earlier run by the honourable member
for North Antrim when it was | 4:22:21 | 4:22:24 | |
remarked upon that the honourable
gentleman was going around | 4:22:24 | 4:22:26 | |
travelling in the highways and
byways of Northern Ireland stirring | 4:22:26 | 4:22:31 | |
up expectations and actually giving
people the anticipation of delivery. | 4:22:31 | 4:22:36 | |
I have every confidence and faith in
the honourable gentleman for North | 4:22:36 | 4:22:41 | |
West Cambridge. I consider him a
friend, I appreciate that might | 4:22:41 | 4:22:45 | |
breach Parliamentary protocol and it
has broadly doomed his career as | 4:22:45 | 4:22:47 | |
well, but I consider him a friend.
Adding we have a duty to be | 4:22:47 | 4:22:52 | |
evangelical and optimistic. I think
the people of Northern Ireland, the | 4:22:52 | 4:22:55 | |
great people of Northern Ireland,
some of the greatest people I have | 4:22:55 | 4:22:58 | |
ever had the privilege of meeting,
deserve better. They deserve more | 4:22:58 | 4:23:01 | |
than better, they deserve the best.
They deserve the best from their | 4:23:01 | 4:23:06 | |
elected representatives in their own
part of the world. What we have done | 4:23:06 | 4:23:11 | |
today has been technical, it has
been necessary but I wish we hadn't | 4:23:11 | 4:23:14 | |
had to do it. Thank you. | 4:23:14 | 4:23:16 | |
Thank you very much Mr Deputy
Speaker, it is a pleasure to be at | 4:23:21 | 4:23:25 | |
this debate this afternoon. Matt
first of all start by thinking, the | 4:23:25 | 4:23:35 | |
right honourable members across the
house for the contributions to | 4:23:35 | 4:23:38 | |
today's debate. In particular I
would like to thank the opposition | 4:23:38 | 4:23:42 | |
front bench for the support for
these necessary steps to safeguard | 4:23:42 | 4:23:46 | |
public finances, public services, of
our government. In bringing for this | 4:23:46 | 4:23:56 | |
bill, we take a crucially important
step for the previous year. Given | 4:23:56 | 4:24:01 | |
the large the technical measure of
what is proposed, I intend to be | 4:24:01 | 4:24:08 | |
brief, while responding to the
detailed points raised. The | 4:24:08 | 4:24:14 | |
honourable member when he made his
opening remarks made reference to | 4:24:14 | 4:24:23 | |
several points, Secretary of State,
indeed responded to many of them but | 4:24:23 | 4:24:26 | |
I hope he is comforted and that
there has been some confusion, and | 4:24:26 | 4:24:35 | |
appreciate that the issue of victims
pensions Earth, devolved to the his | 4:24:35 | 4:24:42 | |
assembly. | 4:24:42 | 4:24:42 | |
Dissolve the assembly. My rightful
friend, replied that the detail in | 4:24:46 | 4:24:52 | |
regards to the specific questions,
can I do say that as far as | 4:24:52 | 4:24:55 | |
scheduled three is concerned, this
is cash to be drawn down from the | 4:24:55 | 4:25:01 | |
consolidated fund to pay from... And
use of resources only, but it does | 4:25:01 | 4:25:11 | |
include non-cash items, such as
depreciation costs. And on a house | 4:25:11 | 4:25:17 | |
inquiry, we cover that quite
extensively, he would appreciate | 4:25:17 | 4:25:23 | |
that no recommendations were made by
the assembly before collapse, and | 4:25:23 | 4:25:28 | |
that is something that my right
honourable friend, was able to | 4:25:28 | 4:25:34 | |
confirm. My honourable friend, also
spoke of the costs of poor | 4:25:34 | 4:25:44 | |
-- border. This budget deal deals
with the 2070 2018 budget, the | 4:25:49 | 4:25:57 | |
spending decisions include any
allocations required for Brexit | 4:25:57 | 4:25:59 | |
costs remains for demonstration to
take. The | 4:25:59 | 4:26:06 | |
for the 18 2019 years as well. For
the Northern Ireland, can I clarify | 4:26:09 | 4:26:23 | |
one particular point, and that is,
can I clarify one particular point, | 4:26:23 | 4:26:28 | |
when the Secretary of State spoke in
response to a question during the | 4:26:28 | 4:26:35 | |
statement she gave last week, she
spoke of writing to the head of the | 4:26:35 | 4:26:40 | |
civil service. She spoke of writing
to him, rode to the permanent | 4:26:40 | 4:26:46 | |
secretary, and did | 4:26:46 | 4:26:48 | |
-- clarify that particular issue.
The minister is aware that last | 4:26:55 | 4:27:06 | |
week, the head of the civil service,
gave evidence under oath to be RHI | 4:27:06 | 4:27:14 | |
inquiry, he did explain that
ministers in the past, not all of | 4:27:14 | 4:27:24 | |
them, some ministers had given
instruction to officials, to civil | 4:27:24 | 4:27:28 | |
servants that decisions about
expenditure in order to avoid | 4:27:28 | 4:27:36 | |
leaking information, sinks they are
going to begin budgets, and make | 4:27:36 | 4:27:42 | |
decisions about the expenditure, but
the minister confirmed for the | 4:27:42 | 4:27:47 | |
benefit of all of us, and indeed the
people of Northern Ireland that that | 4:27:47 | 4:27:51 | |
policy is no longer in place and
that they are indeed keeping records | 4:27:51 | 4:27:56 | |
of those they meet at all meetings
that they have in relation to this | 4:27:56 | 4:28:00 | |
budget. I am grateful to the lady,
the right honourable Lady, it would | 4:28:00 | 4:28:10 | |
not be appropriate for me to comment
on it as such. For home I have high | 4:28:10 | 4:28:21 | |
regard, this is nothing to do with
RHI inquiry, I am not asking about | 4:28:21 | 4:28:26 | |
the RHI, I'm inquiring because it is
ongoing, this is a separate issue. | 4:28:26 | 4:28:34 | |
In evidence to the inquiry, the head
of the civil service, confirmed that | 4:28:34 | 4:28:40 | |
ministers, and they understood that
they had given them instructions to | 4:28:40 | 4:28:45 | |
civil servants that they would not
be capped off meetings in order to | 4:28:45 | 4:28:51 | |
avoid... I'm pleased to say that
there is some headshaking here, can | 4:28:51 | 4:28:58 | |
I just have the minister confirmed
that all permanent secretaries who | 4:28:58 | 4:29:01 | |
are now running have given
instructions to civil servants that | 4:29:01 | 4:29:07 | |
minutes will be kept of all meetings
and decisions recorded at those | 4:29:07 | 4:29:09 | |
meetings. I hope she will appreciate
that there are no ministers and the | 4:29:09 | 4:29:19 | |
Northern Ireland assembly is and is
for them to give instructions to | 4:29:19 | 4:29:21 | |
permanent secretaries, I cannot give
her the assurance that she seeks | 4:29:21 | 4:29:27 | |
because... | 4:29:27 | 4:29:29 | |
Moving on, the honourable member, I
am grateful for her support, she | 4:29:33 | 4:29:38 | |
spoke of the delay in this bill
coming forward, but I hope she will | 4:29:38 | 4:29:44 | |
appreciate that we have been very
keen on trying to get the assembly | 4:29:44 | 4:29:50 | |
up and running again. And only
recently, through intensive talks, | 4:29:50 | 4:29:55 | |
to try and progress matters. So we
have kept this for the last minute, | 4:29:55 | 4:30:00 | |
because we were hoping that we would
not have to take the decisions that | 4:30:00 | 4:30:03 | |
we are taking today. Mr Deputy
Speaker, my honourable friend raised | 4:30:03 | 4:30:10 | |
a number of issues and I... Gives
financial clarity to Northern | 4:30:10 | 4:30:19 | |
Ireland departments. It reflects the
feedback of the Northern Ireland | 4:30:19 | 4:30:27 | |
civil service budget consultation
and advice from the Northern Ireland | 4:30:27 | 4:30:31 | |
civil service on board key pressures
like, such as health and education, | 4:30:31 | 4:30:35 | |
it is a balanced budget providing
secure basis for protecting and | 4:30:35 | 4:30:40 | |
preserving public services. The, she
also spoke of the city deals and of | 4:30:40 | 4:30:47 | |
course she is aware that work is
ongoing, on these deals. Councils, | 4:30:47 | 4:30:55 | |
civil service, magistrate are all
involved, and charging the way for. | 4:30:55 | 4:31:00 | |
But she had a house will appreciate
that we do need the assembly, | 4:31:00 | 4:31:04 | |
because they have a huge
contribution to make in terms of | 4:31:04 | 4:31:07 | |
progressing those dissolved
assemblies. She also made reference | 4:31:07 | 4:31:14 | |
to the apprenticeship levy, to
clarify it has been allocated and | 4:31:14 | 4:31:23 | |
share of the apprenticeship levy and
it is available to the North Island | 4:31:23 | 4:31:26 | |
civil service for allocating.
However, in line with the | 4:31:26 | 4:31:29 | |
settlement, it is not for the UK
Government to dictate how Northern | 4:31:29 | 4:31:36 | |
Ireland's share is actually spent.
And again, this issue highlights the | 4:31:36 | 4:31:43 | |
need for having that assembly up and
running. Mr Deputy Speaker, the | 4:31:43 | 4:31:51 | |
honourable member, spoke with his
customary manner and passion and it | 4:31:51 | 4:31:58 | |
was good to hear that he upped
clarify the purpose of this bill | 4:31:58 | 4:32:00 | |
board has been some misunderstanding
amongst members of the house. The | 4:32:00 | 4:32:05 | |
honourable member for Belfast North
again, passionate speech where she | 4:32:05 | 4:32:11 | |
normally delivers, -- he normally
delivers. From this perspective, the | 4:32:11 | 4:32:20 | |
crucial decisions to be taken as we
do here today. The honourable member | 4:32:20 | 4:32:27 | |
spoke of a person with periods and
it was certainly beneficial to the | 4:32:27 | 4:32:34 | |
house to hear that. And she also
spoke of the need to get decisions | 4:32:34 | 4:32:39 | |
made and where the example she gave,
the special-needs sector and | 4:32:39 | 4:32:43 | |
education. Which is one of the
examples. The honourable member | 4:32:43 | 4:32:48 | |
again, he spoke of the lack of
decisions with examples being given | 4:32:48 | 4:32:52 | |
an education and health, but he also
highlighted the additional funds for | 4:32:52 | 4:32:56 | |
the supply agreement which, it is
important to remember benefit all | 4:32:56 | 4:33:02 | |
the people of Northern Ireland. The
honourable member again, for the | 4:33:02 | 4:33:15 | |
need to reinforce the need for
decisions to be taken and we had two | 4:33:15 | 4:33:22 | |
Pacific pin specific | 4:33:22 | 4:33:22 | |
specific questions, I appreciate
very much and the House does as well | 4:33:27 | 4:33:30 | |
the importance to the economy, the
answer that he does not want that as | 4:33:30 | 4:33:42 | |
a matter that involves this simply
for the youth Commonwealth Games. | 4:33:42 | 4:33:48 | |
And at what so important to try to
try to get that assembly up and | 4:33:48 | 4:33:51 | |
running. I wholeheartedly agree that
the best case in the world, it is a | 4:33:51 | 4:33:59 | |
matter for the Northern Ireland
assembly, but reality check, the | 4:33:59 | 4:34:03 | |
assembly is gone. It is gone for
now. We would love to have it back, | 4:34:03 | 4:34:07 | |
but we have to start planning and
put in place an emergency plan | 4:34:07 | 4:34:11 | |
delicate certainty for funding of
events going forward. And that does | 4:34:11 | 4:34:14 | |
not take away from the assembly
restored as soon as possible. I just | 4:34:14 | 4:34:19 | |
hope that it would take that away,
please give certainty to these | 4:34:19 | 4:34:25 | |
organisations in terms of sport, and
in terms of our games. I take on | 4:34:25 | 4:34:30 | |
board with the honourable Joan and
says that he will appreciate that | 4:34:30 | 4:34:33 | |
the bill before us is of a technical
nature as I said in my opening | 4:34:33 | 4:34:37 | |
comments. It is technical, it is
specific, if you'll forgive me but I | 4:34:37 | 4:34:42 | |
will stick to the terms of the
building -- bill that is right | 4:34:42 | 4:34:48 | |
before us. This constituency, I hope
he will be pleased to know that last | 4:34:48 | 4:34:56 | |
Thursday, I was at the market in
London supporting some 14 Northern | 4:34:56 | 4:35:01 | |
Ireland businesses, dealing with
food and drink. But I have to say | 4:35:01 | 4:35:07 | |
that they all seem to be doing very
well in terms of business and seem | 4:35:07 | 4:35:11 | |
to have picked up contacts here in
terms of traders here, we will take | 4:35:11 | 4:35:18 | |
gets | 4:35:18 | 4:35:20 | |
goods from them in the future. He
asked a specific question in terms | 4:35:25 | 4:35:33 | |
of the Northern Ireland border in
1999. What I will say is that the | 4:35:33 | 4:35:37 | |
Department of Northern Ireland 1999
in article four, paragraph three, | 4:35:37 | 4:35:42 | |
the decisions made by senior
officials permanent secretaries | 4:35:42 | 4:35:47 | |
consider legal authorities, every
day in line with legislation. But it | 4:35:47 | 4:35:51 | |
is a technical issue and I hope that
that gives you some comfort. For | 4:35:51 | 4:35:57 | |
that and his right to paragraph
three rather than for, as I | 4:35:57 | 4:36:03 | |
misdirected him earlier. But Mr,
does he not believe that just having | 4:36:03 | 4:36:09 | |
reflected upon the provisions, and
of course it opinion may be sought. | 4:36:09 | 4:36:15 | |
But that piece of legislation
fundamentally underlines this | 4:36:15 | 4:36:19 | |
blanket stance that no decisions can
be taken until ministers are | 4:36:19 | 4:36:25 | |
appointed there. Is their
flexibility and a legislation that | 4:36:25 | 4:36:29 | |
is suggested in the political
atmosphere and the discussions that | 4:36:29 | 4:36:34 | |
we have currently, given that it's
there that we should use them. The | 4:36:34 | 4:36:41 | |
honourable gentleman is a very
distinguished lawyer and he would | 4:36:41 | 4:36:43 | |
therefore appreciate given the
context in which I'm speaking, I | 4:36:43 | 4:36:50 | |
would prefer and I speak as one
lawyer to another, to read that | 4:36:50 | 4:36:54 | |
particular clause in a wider context
before I make any more commitments | 4:36:54 | 4:36:59 | |
to it. And he will appreciate that I
am not in a position to make that | 4:36:59 | 4:37:03 | |
comment right now. And so hopefully
he will be content with that. I | 4:37:03 | 4:37:07 | |
think the smile on his face says
that, yes, he | 4:37:07 | 4:37:17 | |
Mr Deputy Speaker, with the view...
The trying his luck in pushing me | 4:37:17 | 4:37:24 | |
further than at the dock Mr Deputy
Speaker, I would like to retrieve | 4:37:24 | 4:37:27 | |
the point made me by my right
honourable friend the Secretary of | 4:37:27 | 4:37:31 | |
State that the Bill before us does
not set out... That will be done in | 4:37:31 | 4:37:37 | |
the summer through a budget bill, I
hope by restoring executive | 4:37:37 | 4:37:42 | |
following on the Government
estimates process. The Bill before | 4:37:42 | 4:37:48 | |
us concerns departmental allocations
for 2017 and 2010, reflecting final | 4:37:48 | 4:37:52 | |
spending totals and revised
allocations. It also -- 2018. To be | 4:37:52 | 4:38:04 | |
clear, Mr Speaker, this is all money
that is either locally raised or | 4:38:04 | 4:38:07 | |
which has been previously subject to
a vote in Parliament. This is simply | 4:38:07 | 4:38:13 | |
about formalizing the allocations of
funding during the year in Northern | 4:38:13 | 4:38:19 | |
Ireland departments. Pastor
providing authorisation -- as for | 4:38:19 | 4:38:26 | |
providing authorisation, I can
assure that this is in line with | 4:38:26 | 4:38:31 | |
usual processes. Laster, Northern
Ireland permanent secretaries are | 4:38:31 | 4:38:34 | |
forced to rely on emergency powers
-- last year. I hope collies will | 4:38:34 | 4:38:44 | |
agree that it would not be
acceptable to invite the same | 4:38:44 | 4:38:47 | |
uncertainty again. The issue of
scrutiny and accountability was | 4:38:47 | 4:38:54 | |
raised and that is important to
appreciate that is there. As as been | 4:38:54 | 4:39:00 | |
set, measures before us relate to
the formalizing of allocations with | 4:39:00 | 4:39:05 | |
the previous financial year. As the
Secretary of State said, -- as the | 4:39:05 | 4:39:15 | |
former Secretary of State said,
there are records in place to report | 4:39:15 | 4:39:21 | |
the... Last week, my right
honourable friend the Secretary of | 4:39:21 | 4:39:30 | |
State placed the first two
departmental responses to Northern | 4:39:30 | 4:39:34 | |
Ireland audit departments www. We
stand ready to continue that | 4:39:34 | 4:39:44 | |
process... Mr Speaker, I wish to
emphasise we would be to the De | 4:39:44 | 4:40:01 | |
Greef rated as low as possible for
that to happen. But in the absence | 4:40:01 | 4:40:04 | |
of an executive, as they sit there
public services. This is why it is | 4:40:04 | 4:40:16 | |
so important that the Bill's second
reading his pass today. I beg of | 4:40:16 | 4:40:21 | |
this bill be read a second time. The
question is that the Bill be read a | 4:40:21 | 4:40:27 | |
second time. The ayes have it, the
ayes have it. Under the order of the | 4:40:27 | 4:40:36 | |
House today, which now moved to the
committee of the that order. | 4:40:36 | 4:40:41 | |
We begin with clause one. The
question is a close one... -- clause | 4:41:01 | 4:41:11 | |
one. The ayes have it, the ayes have
it. With leave of the committee come | 4:41:11 | 4:41:15 | |
I will put as one question the
clauses 2-9... The ayes have it, the | 4:41:15 | 4:41:30 | |
ayes have it. Order. | 4:41:30 | 4:41:37 | |
I begged her for the victim and his
counter the Bill directly to report | 4:41:57 | 4:42:01 | |
the same without amendment. Under
the order of the House, we moved | 4:42:01 | 4:42:07 | |
directly to third reading. To move
third reading... Formally. The | 4:42:07 | 4:42:16 | |
question is that the Bill be read a
third time, as many of that opinion | 4:42:16 | 4:42:20 | |
said I... The ayes have it, the ayes
have it. We move on... We've got, my | 4:42:20 | 4:42:35 | |
work, the numbers have changed,
4-9... The ayes have it, the ayes | 4:42:35 | 4:42:46 | |
have it. We now come to motion
number 9. What's wrong with this | 4:42:46 | 4:42:55 | |
thing? It does save 9 here. Now come
to motion number ten. The ayes have | 4:42:55 | 4:43:09 | |
it, the ayes have it. This time it's
done correctly, where Albright! | 4:43:09 | 4:43:18 | |
Thank you, Philippa. The less we are
all right. -- we are all right. She | 4:43:18 | 4:43:30 | |
wants to take number nine
separately. We've already done | 4:43:30 | 4:43:45 | |
number nine, were onto 11-21. As
many of that opinion CI, the | 4:43:45 | 4:43:54 | |
contrary know. The ayes have it. A
neck of the presentation to put the | 4:43:54 | 4:44:03 | |
petitions. I'm glad that we got
here. It takes a lot to excite the | 4:44:03 | 4:44:08 | |
good people of Albert Ketelbey and
Todd Lockley -- the good people... | 4:44:08 | 4:44:17 | |
The petition reads, the proposed
closure of the average family -- | 4:44:19 | 4:44:32 | |
Aberfeldy. We ask that the
Department for Business, industrial | 4:44:32 | 4:44:39 | |
and judge and the rollback is common
to reconsider the community harming | 4:44:39 | 4:44:43 | |
and flawed argument about bad bank
voters. Further notes that the Royal | 4:44:43 | 4:44:49 | |
Vegas context into account the
concerns of petitioners and take | 4:44:49 | 4:44:52 | |
whatever steps they can to have the
planned closure of the branches | 4:44:52 | 4:44:56 | |
halted and the petitioners remain
etc. | 4:44:56 | 4:45:02 | |
Thank you. Point of order. Thank you
Mr Deputy Speaker. A number of | 4:45:12 | 4:45:22 | |
member subsequent visits of the
Wells constituency in recent months, | 4:45:22 | 4:45:25 | |
where the Leader of the
Opposition... This was the case last | 4:45:25 | 4:45:30 | |
Friday, with the visit of the
honourable member for Stroud, who | 4:45:30 | 4:45:34 | |
chaired a public meeting. Numbers
ups and have not always found the | 4:45:34 | 4:45:38 | |
time to give advance notice. Within
the stores, the Dutch with English | 4:45:38 | 4:45:43 | |
chores make upon us, -- English
tourism week. Atticus was to remind | 4:45:43 | 4:46:00 | |
all members of the cells, whichever
party they are, Curtis is our dish | 4:46:00 | 4:46:03 | |
and let the member know if you're
going on political business. If it's | 4:46:03 | 4:46:08 | |
on the record, I'm sure that
everybody will note it. Thank you. I | 4:46:08 | 4:46:13 | |
beg to move that this House do now
adjourn. Hold onto your seat. While | 4:46:13 | 4:46:25 | |
I take you to the history of greater
Manchester's transit network. This | 4:46:25 | 4:46:30 | |
is... Well, we could have two hours
on this. But if it's any help, I | 4:46:30 | 4:46:35 | |
promise not to take us anywhere near
that. Unless there's trouble on the | 4:46:35 | 4:46:39 | |
line number get delayed. I'm
grateful if my friend is going to | 4:46:39 | 4:46:45 | |
give us a history of Manchester's
travel number, which I look forward | 4:46:45 | 4:46:49 | |
to, Willie also join me in paying
tribute to the man described as Mr | 4:46:49 | 4:46:55 | |
MetroLink, counsellor Andrew Fender,
with -- without whom we might not | 4:46:55 | 4:47:04 | |
have a transit... Counsellor Fender,
for many people in Manchester, has | 4:47:04 | 4:47:14 | |
been an inspiration. He is quiet and
reserved as a character. He's not | 4:47:14 | 4:47:19 | |
somebody who grandstands, who seeks
attention. The work requires a lot | 4:47:19 | 4:47:30 | |
of time and dedication, and I have
absolutely no doubt that without the | 4:47:30 | 4:47:33 | |
time that he put in, the transport
and greater Manchester, and a | 4:47:33 | 4:47:39 | |
transit system in terms of the bus
network and cycling routes in | 4:47:39 | 4:47:43 | |
particular, then greater Manchester
would not be as against today as it | 4:47:43 | 4:47:46 | |
is. I think that is a fitting
tribute and thank you for that | 4:47:46 | 4:47:49 | |
intervention. Greater Manchester's
tram network opened in 1992, and | 4:47:49 | 4:47:56 | |
it's not the UK's biggest light rail
network. It's essential to greater | 4:47:56 | 4:48:02 | |
Manchester's economy, we know how
important it is. Getting people from | 4:48:02 | 4:48:07 | |
H a B is important -- from A to B.
-- A to B. It covers 60 miles over | 4:48:07 | 4:48:30 | |
93 stops, but as always and greater
Manchester, we are not content to | 4:48:30 | 4:48:36 | |
stand still. We want to go even
further still. At the moment, new | 4:48:36 | 4:48:42 | |
line is being built and it will
provide connectivity in one of | 4:48:42 | 4:48:48 | |
your's largest employment size. It
will mean people across greater | 4:48:48 | 4:48:51 | |
Manchester will be able to travel
across through the city centre onto | 4:48:51 | 4:48:55 | |
traffic park and capitalising on the
jobs that are being created there. | 4:48:55 | 4:48:59 | |
This builds on the success of the
airport my double take people to | 4:48:59 | 4:49:02 | |
Manchester Airport, which one of our
father that it's essential -- it's | 4:49:02 | 4:49:11 | |
essential for... Just on that
subject, ever mindful that the | 4:49:11 | 4:49:18 | |
Government has committed to reducing
pollution levels, dismembered and | 4:49:18 | 4:49:24 | |
agree that a working modern
technology friendly public transport | 4:49:24 | 4:49:30 | |
system is essential for a city like
Manchester and expansion of services | 4:49:30 | 4:49:34 | |
to attract more people to use the
service, making it more effective | 4:49:34 | 4:49:38 | |
and therefore cost effective and be
of benefit to the environment? | 4:49:38 | 4:49:45 | |
That's a very important point around
how important it is for the | 4:49:45 | 4:49:48 | |
environment and economy. But I
might... To the honourable | 4:49:48 | 4:50:06 | |
gentleman, and Estes in the mode
four providing extensions, the end | 4:50:06 | 4:50:13 | |
of the line comes out to my
constituency, and we'd love to see | 4:50:13 | 4:50:22 | |
that the dots we get true
connectivity around the southern | 4:50:22 | 4:50:24 | |
area. I think that's a very
important point. I think there's a | 4:50:24 | 4:50:28 | |
case to be made, I will come onto
some potential routes in the future. | 4:50:28 | 4:50:33 | |
Not only for the line to be extended
on through, but also for a | 4:50:33 | 4:50:38 | |
connection from Ashton through to
Stockport and threw to the airport | 4:50:38 | 4:50:42 | |
because as much as the connections
in outer Manchester city are | 4:50:42 | 4:50:47 | |
important, so are the orbital links
around the ... We ought to be | 4:50:47 | 4:50:56 | |
ambitious. But we need to do is
create a transport mission that will | 4:50:56 | 4:51:00 | |
take us over decades, and people who
laid the foundation for Manchester's | 4:51:00 | 4:51:04 | |
current MetroLink system came up
with that idea. That nugget of how | 4:51:04 | 4:51:09 | |
Manchester could be different. Many
many generations before, and I think | 4:51:09 | 4:51:14 | |
its apart now that we take on that
responsibility for the next | 4:51:14 | 4:51:17 | |
generation and that we planned that
far ahead, and I think that | 4:51:17 | 4:51:21 | |
Stockport ought to be deed the
missionary -- beat the | 4:51:21 | 4:51:26 | |
beneficiary... | 4:51:26 | 4:51:36 | |
in the year that began because a
leader. And so -- became the Council | 4:51:40 | 4:51:48 | |
leader. Decommissioned to be turned
into a light rail system. Now that | 4:51:48 | 4:51:54 | |
clearly had a lot of... And a
trampling through the town with all | 4:51:54 | 4:52:02 | |
the traffic chaos, that naturally
happens when you use that network, | 4:52:02 | 4:52:07 | |
not everyone was convinced it would
pay dividends. And to be a benefit | 4:52:07 | 4:52:14 | |
to the town. As he knelt, this
connectivity, of the greater | 4:52:14 | 4:52:23 | |
Manchester, and if it all sits in
isolation, it will capitalise on one | 4:52:23 | 4:52:28 | |
of the best cities in the world, and
will be missing out on a trek. Well | 4:52:28 | 4:52:32 | |
is important was, to have a vision
that it could be the best Alton they | 4:52:32 | 4:52:42 | |
could be -- that it could be. It was
significant that the phase three | 4:52:42 | 4:52:52 | |
lines on investment of £764 million,
a connectivity sites. -- it | 4:52:52 | 4:53:02 | |
connected many sides. It has a good
effect on the housing market where | 4:53:02 | 4:53:12 | |
it was placed. The Metrolink stops
is placed, it was a key site for | 4:53:12 | 4:53:17 | |
housing, and we know that is being
redeveloped, which would be the | 4:53:17 | 4:53:27 | |
subject of a future debate.
Demolished to make way for decent | 4:53:27 | 4:53:30 | |
secure accommodations for people to
live in. And to create a thriving | 4:53:30 | 4:53:34 | |
neighbourhood. It also connected the
community that saw a lot of | 4:53:34 | 4:53:39 | |
clearance, now really fantastic
places and houses for people to live | 4:53:39 | 4:53:46 | |
in, to do is walk to the station to
connect them to Rockdale and | 4:53:46 | 4:53:50 | |
Manchester and further into the
network. To connectivity for them is | 4:53:50 | 4:53:55 | |
vital. People vote with their feet,
and the old heavy rail systems, the | 4:53:55 | 4:54:03 | |
clunker carriages that were used to
have on the stations, it carried 1.1 | 4:54:03 | 4:54:08 | |
million passengers a year, which was
impressive, but nowhere near as | 4:54:08 | 4:54:14 | |
impressive as the three points 6
million people who use the current | 4:54:14 | 4:54:18 | |
Metrolink system on the same line.
So we know it as a material effect | 4:54:18 | 4:54:23 | |
on increasing passenger numbers, and
of course the more people on the | 4:54:23 | 4:54:27 | |
tram, fewer people have to travel by
car because they have a genuine | 4:54:27 | 4:54:31 | |
alternative and environmentally
friendly way. If the government are | 4:54:31 | 4:54:36 | |
serious about this, it is critical
that we rebalance the UK economy, | 4:54:36 | 4:54:43 | |
but also need to understand that if
all we do is benefit Manchester in | 4:54:43 | 4:54:48 | |
the south of Manchester, which have
historically been the better | 4:54:48 | 4:54:51 | |
performing parts of Manchester, and
we don't concentrate on northern | 4:54:51 | 4:54:56 | |
Manchester which is underperformed
compared to south, and we miss an | 4:54:56 | 4:55:00 | |
opportunity to make sure that every
part of the Northern powerhouse can | 4:55:00 | 4:55:03 | |
benefit from future investment. And
just to give a sort of context, this | 4:55:03 | 4:55:09 | |
is not just a knotted Manchester,
they return from Manchester South, | 4:55:09 | 4:55:22 | |
34 point £1 billion a year. And that
accounts for 68% of the total GBA | 4:55:22 | 4:55:29 | |
for greater Manchester. Not saying
that South Manchester has an over | 4:55:29 | 4:55:38 | |
performance, but enough of
Manchester can do far better to | 4:55:38 | 4:55:41 | |
contribute to the | 4:55:41 | 4:55:43 | |
... On transport, housing, on
skills, and on investment. And this | 4:55:46 | 4:55:56 | |
debate, it's how we might achieve
that. And so, if you've ever done | 4:55:56 | 4:56:02 | |
the Manchester Metrolink track, and
you've been taken on a real journey, | 4:56:02 | 4:56:06 | |
Brad Jabir Mitzi while I take you on
a journey of the future, if the | 4:56:06 | 4:56:12 | |
greater Manchester and government
work together on this plan. Somebody | 4:56:12 | 4:56:15 | |
concentrate on the | 4:56:15 | 4:56:21 | |
as you are coming down the Metrolink
track, and you get to the station, | 4:56:24 | 4:56:31 | |
the track will turn to the left,
towards Manchester. But, in this new | 4:56:31 | 4:56:36 | |
journey, that we taking today, he
could continue straight down Milton | 4:56:36 | 4:56:41 | |
Road on sunny | 4:56:41 | 4:56:42 | |
towards middle state -- sunny climb
towards Middleton. And head towards | 4:56:42 | 4:56:52 | |
the park, enjoying with very line
that will connect you with greater | 4:56:52 | 4:56:57 | |
Manchester. You could coming back
where you are currently carried on | 4:56:57 | 4:57:03 | |
to Rockdale, no | 4:57:03 | 4:57:04 | |
there to ashen go on from there to
Ashton Road, onto, Ashton town | 4:57:05 | 4:57:15 | |
centre where currently the line
terminates, ill carry on shift | 4:57:15 | 4:57:25 | |
Ashton and go on to Ashton town
centre, and then the potential of | 4:57:25 | 4:57:32 | |
creating a loop onto Stockport and
onto Manchester Airport, suddenly, | 4:57:32 | 4:57:37 | |
you're beginning to create what's
been dubbed by the Manchester news | 4:57:37 | 4:57:41 | |
as the Circle line. A way to create
proper connectivity across greater | 4:57:41 | 4:57:48 | |
Manchester, in a way that the
motorway currently provides her car | 4:57:48 | 4:57:52 | |
users. And that would be for many
good jobs, far tourist industry, a | 4:57:52 | 4:58:00 | |
fantastic boost. It also mean it
would play a critical part of an | 4:58:00 | 4:58:08 | |
imported transport hub. It would
just be the place where people pass | 4:58:08 | 4:58:12 | |
through, it mean that all would be
absolutely critical as | 4:58:12 | 4:58:20 | |
interconnectivity between Berry,
Rockdale, Manchester and maybe | 4:58:20 | 4:58:26 | |
further on if we further extensions.
It becomes very much important for | 4:58:26 | 4:58:35 | |
investment, for a generation, and I
believe important catalyst for | 4:58:35 | 4:58:38 | |
rebalancing the economy across
greater Manchester. To achieve this, | 4:58:38 | 4:58:44 | |
we need to be honest, at the moment
the financial model is heavily | 4:58:44 | 4:58:50 | |
predicated, what does this mean for
GBA return? But return we get, pound | 4:58:50 | 4:58:58 | |
for pound on the local economy? This
so we assess capital in this | 4:58:58 | 4:59:05 | |
country, the needs of fundamental
rethink. There are to be some | 4:59:05 | 4:59:10 | |
measure, human capital. So what's a
starting point will want everybody | 4:59:10 | 4:59:16 | |
to have equal opportunity to access
decent, well-paid, secure, jobs. To | 4:59:16 | 4:59:23 | |
access decent sporting facilities?
To do that the starting point will | 4:59:23 | 4:59:33 | |
be a different point. And it would
need to be a rebalancing taking | 4:59:33 | 4:59:37 | |
place. And this is why it's
important. You can rebalance from | 4:59:37 | 4:59:41 | |
two ways, bring the highest
performance area down to lowest | 4:59:41 | 4:59:45 | |
performing area and make an equal.
In the economy will suffer as a | 4:59:45 | 4:59:52 | |
result. Or, we raise our currently
underperforming area with investment | 4:59:52 | 4:59:59 | |
so that everybody thrives across
greater Manchester. To do that, we | 4:59:59 | 5:00:03 | |
do need a different way of assessing
returns, because the truth is, on | 5:00:03 | 5:00:07 | |
any assessment today, building a
mile of Metrolink track in, it will | 5:00:07 | 5:00:14 | |
have a higher return than building a
mile of Metrolink track and older. | 5:00:14 | 5:00:18 | |
Because the starting point is very
different, and I do not believe that | 5:00:18 | 5:00:22 | |
as a way to generate investment
plans that rebounds as the economy | 5:00:22 | 5:00:25 | |
in the way that we need to see. And
this debate is about of course, | 5:00:25 | 5:00:32 | |
setting out a potential room, but
I'm not precious about exactly which | 5:00:32 | 5:00:39 | |
road and which route this ultimately
goes on, but I am passionate about | 5:00:39 | 5:00:46 | |
Alton really realising its
potential. I am passionate about | 5:00:46 | 5:00:49 | |
people in all been having access to
high paid jobs, and that their | 5:00:49 | 5:01:01 | |
horizon is not just at the end
industry. But it's much further -- | 5:01:01 | 5:01:08 | |
and industry, but it is much
further. | 5:01:08 | 5:01:10 | |
I'd been helping my son navigate
very complex world, it seems of | 5:01:14 | 5:01:19 | |
apprenticeships and college courses.
And we're looking at some | 5:01:19 | 5:01:24 | |
apprenticeships in the park, which
is not far. You get there half an | 5:01:24 | 5:01:28 | |
hour. By car. This would get
engineering classes stop the problem | 5:01:28 | 5:01:34 | |
was, that our bus system does not
connect young people with the park | 5:01:34 | 5:01:42 | |
in a way that people can get to
those jobs to create shift work. If | 5:01:42 | 5:01:47 | |
you live in Roy ten, and your real
person and you want to get to the | 5:01:47 | 5:01:56 | |
park Fred NAM shift | 5:01:56 | 5:01:58 | |
8am shift start, the buses do not
start until later in the morning, so | 5:02:00 | 5:02:08 | |
if you're a young person that does
not have a licence and cannot make | 5:02:08 | 5:02:11 | |
it thereunder on transport, and
you're relying on public transport, | 5:02:11 | 5:02:17 | |
which would be the boss. Straight
you're excluded from jobs were to | 5:02:17 | 5:02:21 | |
get ships and one of the largest
engineering employment location in | 5:02:21 | 5:02:26 | |
Europe. It is cannot be right. There
is none of this debate that's about | 5:02:26 | 5:02:33 | |
saying, if all we do is build this
bit of Metrolink track over here | 5:02:33 | 5:02:36 | |
then it will all be fixed. My point
is more broader mean that we need to | 5:02:36 | 5:02:42 | |
get transport in greater Manchester
for people and we see a significant, | 5:02:42 | 5:02:48 | |
a significant effort on the part of
greater Manchester and its team on | 5:02:48 | 5:02:55 | |
the greater Manchester combined | 5:02:55 | 5:02:58 | |
greater Manchester and its team on
the greater Manchester combined, on | 5:02:58 | 5:03:03 | |
the very dedicated officers that
work transport for greater | 5:03:03 | 5:03:06 | |
Manchester. But the truth is, some
of this comes down to resources and | 5:03:06 | 5:03:11 | |
investment. In our experience and
greater Manchester unfortunately, | 5:03:11 | 5:03:17 | |
has been we have lost many bus
routes that would connect your | 5:03:17 | 5:03:23 | |
people with the job opportunities of
tomorrow and we need to see | 5:03:23 | 5:03:27 | |
investment in that. We also need to
see proper capsule investment that | 5:03:27 | 5:03:32 | |
at least brings greater Manchester
on par with London. Everyone greater | 5:03:32 | 5:03:35 | |
Manchester to be thriving, and an
active part of the northern | 5:03:35 | 5:03:42 | |
powerhouse, you can have a northern
powerhouse that it is done on the | 5:03:42 | 5:03:44 | |
cheek. It is to see investment bank
we see in this capital city -- that | 5:03:44 | 5:03:52 | |
we see in this capital city. And if
we see a fraction of it, I think | 5:03:52 | 5:03:56 | |
we'll see a different outcome for
young people in greater Manchester. | 5:03:56 | 5:04:01 | |
From government, is to get behind,
not necessarily the eighth is the | 5:04:01 | 5:04:07 | |
route that we are proposing, that
will come out of the feasibility | 5:04:07 | 5:04:10 | |
report and a technical assessment of
what's possible and of course, | 5:04:10 | 5:04:15 | |
patronage, and whatever physical
barriers may be in place. But the | 5:04:15 | 5:04:18 | |
barrier that should not be in place
is the desire to make greater | 5:04:18 | 5:04:24 | |
Manchester absolutely great. And I
can only happen if government comes | 5:04:24 | 5:04:27 | |
to the table offers real investment,
and works of greater Manchester to | 5:04:27 | 5:04:32 | |
make sure that transport in the
future is far better than is today. | 5:04:32 | 5:04:41 | |
Thank you very much indeed Madam
Deputy Speaker, I don't have an | 5:04:41 | 5:04:45 | |
enormous amount of time I think I
have 12 minutes of I understand this | 5:04:45 | 5:04:48 | |
correctly. So let me just respond to
this. The Minister has until 730. | 5:04:48 | 5:05:02 | |
Than I can extend myself, very glad
to hear that. When I heard the name, | 5:05:02 | 5:05:09 | |
since I can mention it, I cannot
refer to the gentleman, it had to be | 5:05:09 | 5:05:14 | |
referring to one of my great heroes,
the former quarterback for the | 5:05:14 | 5:05:19 | |
Chicago Bears. And the Green Bay
Packers. And my sense of excitement | 5:05:19 | 5:05:22 | |
to being able to respond to him,
taking interest in our issues. It is | 5:05:22 | 5:05:31 | |
no less great having the opportunity
to respond to the honourable | 5:05:31 | 5:05:37 | |
gentleman opposite, who was himself
an award-winning leader of counsel | 5:05:37 | 5:05:42 | |
when he was there. And he is a
little confused why we say so but | 5:05:42 | 5:05:47 | |
some of the responsibilities
involved, is responsibly for buses | 5:05:47 | 5:05:51 | |
and indeed enhanced powers under the
new legislation. But his subject | 5:05:51 | 5:05:57 | |
today and rightfully so is the
Metrolink system. And I think | 5:05:57 | 5:06:04 | |
everyone in this house, and
certainly everyone who's travelled | 5:06:04 | 5:06:07 | |
around it, will agree that it has
been a colossal success for the | 5:06:07 | 5:06:13 | |
economy, and I agree with them and
contribute to a government | 5:06:13 | 5:06:18 | |
standpoint, to the work is done over
the past 41 years. Opinion is | 5:06:18 | 5:06:22 | |
divided as to whether or not he
should be regarded as Mr Metrolink | 5:06:22 | 5:06:27 | |
or Mr transport? We congratulate him
and it is very well made point. | 5:06:27 | 5:06:36 | |
Transport is of an anonymous
important to this government and | 5:06:36 | 5:06:40 | |
absolutely response to his question,
and the Northwest, strategic | 5:06:40 | 5:06:47 | |
development as the North as a whole.
We very much agree with local | 5:06:47 | 5:06:53 | |
partners that is essential for
growth and that is why the | 5:06:53 | 5:06:58 | |
government is investing
significantly in local, transport | 5:06:58 | 5:07:02 | |
infrastructure. Including £15
billion on a network and £6 billion | 5:07:02 | 5:07:08 | |
on the local fund. This investment
is designed specifically to drive | 5:07:08 | 5:07:12 | |
economic growth that we wish to see,
but also, to allow those other | 5:07:12 | 5:07:18 | |
opportunities for transport, for the
social and family benefits that come | 5:07:18 | 5:07:21 | |
from that, and also to relieve the
economy of these temporarily | 5:07:21 | 5:07:25 | |
reopened the effects of congestion.
We are creating a northern | 5:07:25 | 5:07:30 | |
powerhouse to rebalance the economy,
and that is an aim that we commonly | 5:07:30 | 5:07:33 | |
share. And the reason for creating
transport for the North, as in the | 5:07:33 | 5:07:38 | |
sea, is to provide a local voice
that could convene and gather those | 5:07:38 | 5:07:45 | |
different projects, those different
schemes, that total regional | 5:07:45 | 5:07:48 | |
ambition if you'd like, and one
place that would support economic | 5:07:48 | 5:07:51 | |
growth in the north. And I think the
house should know that we will | 5:07:51 | 5:07:57 | |
invest £13 billion in this
Parliament to connect the regions | 5:07:57 | 5:08:00 | |
better so the cities across that
region can pool their strengths and | 5:08:00 | 5:08:05 | |
create not just a series of city
economies or a series of regional | 5:08:05 | 5:08:11 | |
economies set by geography, but a
single powerhouse. A single economy | 5:08:11 | 5:08:16 | |
as a whole. And greater Manchester
is at the heart of that. Of course I | 5:08:16 | 5:08:19 | |
would be glad to. | 5:08:19 | 5:08:25 | |
Everything on that point is
accepted, and that event we attend | 5:08:25 | 5:08:28 | |
to Manchester with the Northern
Powerhouse Minister was very much in | 5:08:28 | 5:08:31 | |
the spirit of working together
across party political lines for the | 5:08:31 | 5:08:35 | |
greatest outcome for greater
Manchester. It was a point made by | 5:08:35 | 5:08:39 | |
me at that meeting that went a just
two is in place, -- HS2... Every | 5:08:39 | 5:08:54 | |
journey begins with the local
journey. Unless you happen to live | 5:08:54 | 5:09:00 | |
in a terminus or so. It's also true
that as with the MetroLink, the | 5:09:00 | 5:09:05 | |
secretive HS2 is a capacity story.
As much as it is a speed story. The | 5:09:05 | 5:09:12 | |
capacity has greatly increased over
the last few years. This, as I think | 5:09:12 | 5:09:20 | |
he knows and as the House will know,
greater Manchester has seen a | 5:09:20 | 5:09:24 | |
revolution in this public transport
over the past two years. Through the | 5:09:24 | 5:09:29 | |
innovative greater Manchester
transport fund, which combines local | 5:09:29 | 5:09:31 | |
funding with local funds from... We
have seen the introduction of a bus | 5:09:31 | 5:09:38 | |
corridor, including the death of --
including the... I'd like to pay | 5:09:38 | 5:09:53 | |
particular tribute to the mayor of
greater Manchester further work that | 5:09:53 | 5:09:56 | |
he's done with Chris Borden in
reimagining the possibilities of | 5:09:56 | 5:10:02 | |
what the... that a further 20 £2
million is being provided to the | 5:10:02 | 5:10:17 | |
Metro Mayor of their Manchester to
support public transport, in -- | 5:10:17 | 5:10:23 | |
improve sustainable travel and... On
the rails, this is my specific | 5:10:23 | 5:10:36 | |
breed, it's worth saying that the
great North rail project has allowed | 5:10:36 | 5:10:38 | |
us to upgrade the adjuster Victoria
and connect Manchester's Main to | 5:10:38 | 5:10:45 | |
railway stations for the first time
through... They will provide direct | 5:10:45 | 5:10:51 | |
links to Manchester Airport from the
dot we've also delivered upgrades | 5:10:51 | 5:10:57 | |
and electrification Liverpool and
Manchester and cut the passes | 5:10:57 | 5:11:02 | |
journey time by 15 minutes since
2015. We have upgraded the route | 5:11:02 | 5:11:05 | |
between Manchester and Wigan... But
of course, at the centre of this | 5:11:05 | 5:11:17 | |
development has been the success of
the MetroLink system. As he rightly | 5:11:17 | 5:11:25 | |
indulges. This started in 1992 and
has continued through to the current | 5:11:25 | 5:11:31 | |
construction of the traffic park
extinction. The first extension to | 5:11:31 | 5:11:39 | |
though that in 2008, MetroLink
embarked on a £1.9 billion | 5:11:39 | 5:11:43 | |
investment programme that
transformed the network and service. | 5:11:43 | 5:11:46 | |
A tripled in size, providing
improved connectivity to jobs, | 5:11:46 | 5:11:49 | |
retail and leisure opportunities.
New facilities made the network even | 5:11:49 | 5:11:56 | |
more accessible and that's helped to
reduce traffic congestion across the | 5:11:56 | 5:12:00 | |
region, while customer facilities
have been upgraded and a brand-new | 5:12:00 | 5:12:04 | |
fleet of trams... I congratulate him
on his timing in arriving in the | 5:12:04 | 5:12:18 | |
Council to take credit of the... One
the civil engineering achievement | 5:12:18 | 5:12:32 | |
award. Other improvements have
included the short extension to | 5:12:32 | 5:12:35 | |
media village and the second city
crossing. That letter project is a | 5:12:35 | 5:12:40 | |
short but important route designed
to alleviate congestion by providing | 5:12:40 | 5:12:45 | |
a second rep to the city centre. It
is helping to improve the | 5:12:45 | 5:12:49 | |
reliability and resilience of the
network and allowing it to operate | 5:12:49 | 5:12:52 | |
to its full extent. The most recent
development is the construction of | 5:12:52 | 5:12:57 | |
the traffic park extension, which is
currently under way. This has been | 5:12:57 | 5:13:02 | |
funded in part as part of the
devolution deal with the greater | 5:13:02 | 5:13:06 | |
Manchester combined authority which
gives the city the greater certainty | 5:13:06 | 5:13:08 | |
and needs to invest in this and
other important local schemes. This | 5:13:08 | 5:13:14 | |
will link some of greater
Manchester's biggest visitor | 5:13:14 | 5:13:18 | |
destinations as well as running
through traffic park. It will be | 5:13:18 | 5:13:23 | |
owned by the -- service are expected
to start in 2020. The result of the | 5:13:23 | 5:13:33 | |
investment and this exciting
development is that MetroLink is now | 5:13:33 | 5:13:35 | |
the largest lead rail network in the
UK with 93 stops across 57 miles of | 5:13:35 | 5:13:41 | |
track. It is a model for what can be
done with steady and sustained | 5:13:41 | 5:13:45 | |
investment. It is a public transport
network that passengers are using in | 5:13:45 | 5:13:50 | |
large numbers. A massive success
overall and a reason why investment | 5:13:50 | 5:13:59 | |
continues both from the Government's
site and from the side of the | 5:13:59 | 5:14:01 | |
combined authorities. I am aware and
the honourable member has been | 5:14:01 | 5:14:08 | |
making clear today his continued
support for further extensions to | 5:14:08 | 5:14:14 | |
the Manchester Metrolink system.
Such is the Ashton Loop line from | 5:14:14 | 5:14:16 | |
Ashton town centre, and a spur to
Middleton. A Circle line, as he has | 5:14:16 | 5:14:30 | |
described at these in potentia. Now,
the future of the network... I | 5:14:30 | 5:14:44 | |
understand the combined authority
have a number of ideas about future | 5:14:44 | 5:14:47 | |
expansion including possible links,
as well as a possible third bag | 5:14:47 | 5:14:58 | |
across the city centre. I
congratulate my honourable friend | 5:14:58 | 5:15:01 | |
for putting this issue squarely into
the public agenda once again. As | 5:15:01 | 5:15:09 | |
much basic local constituency
interests and authorities as much is | 5:15:09 | 5:15:14 | |
facing central government. | 5:15:14 | 5:15:24 | |
We will announce a decision... I
also understand that TF GM are | 5:15:24 | 5:15:32 | |
looking for said using tram train
technology. The current project to | 5:15:32 | 5:15:36 | |
provide this between Sheffield and
rubber should provide real lessons | 5:15:36 | 5:15:40 | |
-- Rotherham. The governor will
continue to work with a combined | 5:15:40 | 5:15:47 | |
authorities as it develops its
strategies and we will continue to | 5:15:47 | 5:15:50 | |
consider future bids for funding.
Greater Manchester has shown that | 5:15:50 | 5:15:53 | |
it's able to make use of its own
resources without the that that | 5:15:53 | 5:15:59 | |
there is merit in continuing
cooperation and wrinkles and the | 5:15:59 | 5:16:04 | |
superstructure projects. The system
is only one of the light rail | 5:16:04 | 5:16:07 | |
systems in this country and our view
on this is a development and | 5:16:07 | 5:16:11 | |
transport is very simple. We support
it and we think it has massive | 5:16:11 | 5:16:16 | |
benefits. We've already seen the
impact for both passengers and the | 5:16:16 | 5:16:20 | |
local economy in cities such as
Nottingham, Birmingham, and | 5:16:20 | 5:16:23 | |
Manchester. All three, the system is
become integral part of the | 5:16:23 | 5:16:30 | |
transport network. We supported it
because we know that it is part of a | 5:16:30 | 5:16:36 | |
strong and resilient local economy.
The recent announcement by the | 5:16:36 | 5:16:40 | |
Chancellor of the new £1.7 billion
transforming cities fund will | 5:16:40 | 5:16:44 | |
provide funding for more light rail
schemes which will help drive our | 5:16:44 | 5:16:47 | |
activity and growth in cities where
it's most needed. Connecting | 5:16:47 | 5:16:50 | |
computer these -- communities. The
joy of a light rail system is that | 5:16:50 | 5:17:03 | |
it helps support not merely an
integrated transport network, which | 5:17:03 | 5:17:08 | |
reduces congestion, but one that
also is a very good -- is very good | 5:17:08 | 5:17:13 | |
for our quality and very
environmentally from it. It's a | 5:17:13 | 5:17:15 | |
green form of transport which makes
locations better places to live, not | 5:17:15 | 5:17:19 | |
just better places to get to. We
have seen evidence that implementing | 5:17:19 | 5:17:23 | |
a systems -- if a light rail
system... It can bring in tourism | 5:17:23 | 5:17:32 | |
and give a sense of place and
distinction to a place even as | 5:17:32 | 5:17:36 | |
already distinguished as old. Few
other companies these days do not | 5:17:36 | 5:17:47 | |
think in terms of trends produces
when they are to locate. Whether Bay | 5:17:47 | 5:17:51 | |
offices are going to be or where
satellite offices are going to be. | 5:17:51 | 5:17:54 | |
They note that high rail is popular
with their users is reflected in her | 5:17:54 | 5:17:59 | |
statistics. They show record numbers
of passengers using light rail. | 5:17:59 | 5:18:05 | |
Passenger numbers continue to rise
in England and so far, to a record | 5:18:05 | 5:18:12 | |
267 million since records began in
the 1983 -- since 1983. However, we | 5:18:12 | 5:18:23 | |
also have to be realistic and clear
and to say that we acknowledge that | 5:18:23 | 5:18:28 | |
light rail is not necessarily
suitable for every place. There are | 5:18:28 | 5:18:32 | |
places that are different and have
their own set of demands and | 5:18:32 | 5:18:36 | |
interests. We do feel that there
is... The Government will need to | 5:18:36 | 5:18:55 | |
continue with let me say that
Manchester Metrolink has been a | 5:18:55 | 5:19:02 | |
great success, it has been the -- a
success because it has provided the | 5:19:02 | 5:19:11 | |
that it has been made possible by
the combined commitment of | 5:19:11 | 5:19:15 | |
significant local transfer
investment by central government and | 5:19:15 | 5:19:18 | |
also investment made through the
combined authority. We are confident | 5:19:18 | 5:19:25 | |
that the Petro accessible continued
to play a key role in the future | 5:19:25 | 5:19:27 | |
success of greater Manchester and --
Metrolink. The question is that this | 5:19:27 | 5:19:42 | |
has to adjourn. The ayes have it.
Order, order. | 5:19:42 | 5:19:53 |