Browse content similar to 02/03/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The review is independently lead and evidence led as well. It will be | :00:12. | :00:22. | |
evidence put forward to consider, and the importance of its | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
considerations will be about the state pension the review will | :00:27. | :00:29. | |
consider changes in life expectancy as well as wider changes in society. | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
It is also useful at this point to remind the house why this kind of | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
review is necessary. In 1945, a man retiring at 65 had a life expectancy | :00:42. | :00:55. | |
of between 60 and 63. This rose to 27 years after retirement under | :00:56. | :01:02. | |
current timescales. Women went from 18 years in retirement to 29.5 years | :01:03. | :01:09. | |
in retirement. In future, generations their would rightly | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
expects that we should reflect those changes in how we set the pension. | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
It is right that pensions should reflect these changes in life | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
expectancy. Future generations will not thank us if we did nothing and | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
didn't have the courage to ensure pensions are sustainable to avoid | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
them picking up the Pelle. -- the bill. This review is not... It will | :01:32. | :01:39. | |
not cover the existing pension age timetable up to April 20 28. We have | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
already provided legislation for this and the review will not look to | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
change the state pension age up to this point. The Labour government | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
first legislated for state pension rises beyond 65. But without any | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
commitment to an independent review. When we brought forward the pensions | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
Bill in 2013, Labour seemed to have a change of heart. They agreed with | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
us for the need for a regular independent review of the state | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
pension age. The Shadow Secretary of State at the time, the honourable | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
member for Birmingham Hodge Hill said, the Secretary of State and I | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
have no difference of opinion on the need regularly to review the state | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
pension age. So that is what we are doing. Under that legislation, we | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
are required to appoint an independent reviewer who will make | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
recommendations to him on future state pension age arrangements. We | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
have appointed John Cridland to lead this work. Under the legislation we | :02:41. | :02:47. | |
are required to report in 2017 on this, and that is what we will do. | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
This review is part of the Government's reforms to pensions to | :02:53. | :02:55. | |
ensure that they are of audible from the long. But it is right to | :02:56. | :03:03. | |
recognise those who have reached their pensionable age and worked | :03:04. | :03:06. | |
hard and done the right thing and providing for their families, and we | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
are delivering for them. As a result of our triple lock, pensioners will | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
be receiving a basic state pension over ?1100 higher than they were at | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
the start of the last Parliament. We are providing greater security, more | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
choice, and dignity for people in retirement. Whilst also ensuring the | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
system is sustainable for the future. My Lords, I start by | :03:29. | :03:37. | |
thanking the noble lady for repeating the statement delivered in | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
the other place. One of the matters which is characterised this | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
Government's approach to pensions, both changes to the state and | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
private pensions, has been the lamentable approach to communicating | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
change. This has manifested itself in the frustrations of the group, | :03:58. | :04:05. | |
misunderstandings of over why a minority of those retiring after the | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
5th of April this year will receive the full rate of ?155 of the new | :04:09. | :04:16. | |
state pension. These issues arising from the so-called new | :04:17. | :04:18. | |
flexibilities. Can I ask what assurance will the Minister gave | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
about not repeating the mistakes of the past when the review, which is | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
being undertaken, brings forward its recommendations. The terms of | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
reference were cryo consideration of what is suitable state pension | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
require consideration of what a suitable state pension age is in the | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
future. This is what the noble Baroness states, the review will be | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
focused on the longer term and will not cover the existing timetable to | :04:48. | :04:55. | |
April 2028. Could the minister please reconcile these two | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
positions? It is a classic case of confused communication which fuels | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
like elation about the Government's true intent. -- which fuels | :05:04. | :05:10. | |
speculation. Do we take it that there is no intention of revisiting | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
the position of those women in their mid-50s who are adamant they | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
received inadequate notice of their state pension age rise? The review | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
has did take a view on how changes to state pension age rises supports | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
affordability. Can I ask therefore, is the triple lock within its scope? | :05:32. | :05:38. | |
We accepted the 2014 provision which required a periodic review of the | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
pension age. We know that life expectancy is generally increasing, | :05:43. | :05:48. | |
no more so that this does not always equate with healthy years of life. | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
We know also that health inequalities will remain stubbornly | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
persistent. How does the Minister consider these factors should be | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
reflected in a fair approach to the pension age? And can the review | :06:04. | :06:10. | |
cover an assessment of the adequacy of Social Security arrangements for | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
those who cannot sustain work before reaching an extension pension age. | :06:15. | :06:22. | |
We wish John Cridland well with his review, transparency consultation | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
and a clear recognition of the need for long-term notification of any | :06:27. | :06:27. | |
changes will be vital. I thank the noble lord for his | :06:28. | :06:42. | |
comments. I would like to request and invite all noble Lords to be in | :06:43. | :06:54. | |
touch with the review so that we can ensure on issues relevant to the | :06:55. | :06:57. | |
consideration of long-term changes in the state pension age and state | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
pension age policy. This is the opportunity to do that. It will be | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
an independent review which will consider all the relevant factors, | :07:08. | :07:10. | |
and it will be up to the reviewer who will welcome such evidence. The | :07:11. | :07:17. | |
review is about the state pension age. And it is also about the longer | :07:18. | :07:25. | |
term, so I repeat that it will not consider any changes to the state | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
pension age timetable that is already legislated for up to 2028. | :07:33. | :07:42. | |
Can we just clarify that point - I have got a copy here saying that | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
what a suitable pension age in in the immediate future and the longer | :07:48. | :07:48. | |
term. The government made it clear that | :07:49. | :08:04. | |
this is about the changes for the longer term and the appropriate | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
framework for state pension age policy. No changes will be | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
considered and the reviewer will not be looking at making or recommending | :08:13. | :08:19. | |
any changes to the timetable before 2028. Stephen Webb as pensions | :08:20. | :08:30. | |
minister, set up a system for gradual rising of the pensions age, | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
why is the government seeking so soon to unpick this consensus and is | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
it contemplating changes that will fall harshly on low income and | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
especially women who depend on the state pension and have no private | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
pot to enable them to retire earlier? I would like to assure the | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
noble lady that this is not about picking anything, it was legislated | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
for in the 2014 pensions act, we are mealy following the legislation was | :09:02. | :09:09. | |
introduced. I welcome the statement from the lady minister and the | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
setting up of an independent enquiry. I can only offer my | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
sympathy to the chairman because pension age, is as she knows, a hot | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
potato politically. There was a debate in the Commons last week | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
about the whole case of the baby boomer women, a motion only lost by | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
a few votes calling for action from the government about transitional | :09:33. | :09:39. | |
provision for these women. Would the minister, who in a previous in | :09:40. | :09:42. | |
Carnation, showed great sympathy for these baby boomer women experts | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
concerned that this is not within the remit of the new appointed | :09:49. | :09:56. | |
review? I stress to the noble lady and noble Lords that if there are | :09:57. | :10:03. | |
any issues they would like to raise with the independent reviewer, | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
lessons to be learned from the past by issued that should be considered | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
for the future, please do raise them with the review. It is an | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
independent review looking at all the relevant factors. Will the | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
Minister give the house and assurance today that if the | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
independent review ruled that that category of women, which I have do | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
declare an interest, I fall within that group of women and also served | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
as Shadow Minister for women's pensions for a year. That the | :10:34. | :10:41. | |
government will accept any regulations accept that the | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
government did not allow ten years for them to prepare for a changed | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
retirement age? They will consider long-term changes to the state | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
pension age, it will not be making any recommendations for changes | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
before that which is currently legislated up to 2028. Could we say | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
if the review would take into account the ability for people to | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
work beyond the age of 65, bearing in mind that some people have a very | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
physical job and may not be able to work after that time? My Lords, as | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
the terms of the reference made clear, the independent review will | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
consider changes in life expectancies as well as all other | :11:25. | :11:30. | |
relevant factors. If I could ask the Minister if the independent reviewer | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
will be provided by the government with an official terms of reference? | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
We have seen a press release but will there be a formal terms of | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
reference in terms of shaping the work he will do? Will it be possible | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
for him to consider some of these schemes that have been used | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
previously by Scandinavian countries which simply index the entries in | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
the basic state pension age to the increase in longevity as it goes | :11:58. | :12:05. | |
forward, both up and down. Indeed, my Lords, this will be an | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
independent review. All of these matters are a matter for the | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
reviewer and I would urge as many noble Lords are possible to make | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
representations to the review, it will consult widely across society | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
and a cross interest groups to ensure that all of these relevant | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
factors are considered. Does the Minister accept there is a deep | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
unfairness in having a single retirement age irrespective of | :12:33. | :12:39. | |
background? In my home city, two wards, one mile apart have a | :12:40. | :12:42. | |
difference in life expectancy of 11 years. So that those who are better | :12:43. | :12:48. | |
off, with more state pensions for longer and also enjoyed it | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
disability free years. Does the Minister accept that every time she | :12:55. | :13:03. | |
raises the state pension age, disadvantage people are more likely | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
to incur disabilities earlier so they enter retirement already unfit, | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
unwell and unable to enjoy retirement. She raises relevant | :13:13. | :13:21. | |
points and I would like once again to stress that this review is not | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
just about raising the state pension age but about considering what is | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
the appropriate way to run state pension age policy and I would | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
encourage her to raise those issues with the reviewer. Would be Minister | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
approved the wording of the press release that has been referred to | :13:40. | :13:47. | |
with the word immediacy in it? My Lords, the press release has been | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
compiled by the Department. And the wording of the release has of course | :13:52. | :13:57. | |
been approved. European Union referendum, data referendum etc | :13:58. | :14:06. | |
regulations, Baron sanely St John's. My Lords, before us today are two | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
motions, each of which goes to the heart of the United Kingdom 's place | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
in the European Union. The first is a statutory instrument which in | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
light of the UK's renegotiated arrangement with the European Union | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
would set the date for the referendum. The second refers to a | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
document published and laid before this house last week, on Monday 22nd | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
February, and this sets out the terms of the new relationship. My | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
lord, I will take each of those interned but perhaps I may be | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
forgiven if I start simply by referring to how much I am looking | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
forward to hearing today the maiden speech of my noble friend, Lord | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
Gilbert a planned ten. In returning to the statutory instrument, this is | :14:55. | :15:00. | |
required to set the date of the referendum. Given the deal achieved | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
by the Prime Minister, it is time to give the British people there say. | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
The Prime Minister has announced his intention to do so on the 23rd of | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
June. But it is for Parliament, in this house and the other place to | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
approve that date. The statutory arrangement gives this house the | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
chance to give its approval today. It does several other things which I | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
will come to but first, let me set out why the government believes the | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
23rd of June is the right day for the poll itself. My Lords, the 23rd | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
of June strikes the right balance between having a proper debate and a | :15:39. | :15:47. | |
timely vote. Any sooner and we risk curtailing the campaign and any | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
later, and we risk testing the patience of the British people. We | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
have to take account of what is real in human life outside the world of | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
politics. Shortly after the 23rd of June, schools start to break up for | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
the holidays and noble Lords will continue to be working after that, I | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
would assume so, we normally do but it would certainly be seen as | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
awkward if we held the referendum while people were on holiday for the | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
summer and that has not been a popular proposal in the past. | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
Delaying beyond June would mean delaying a referendum until | :16:26. | :16:28. | |
September or October. The British people would quite rightly expect to | :16:29. | :16:36. | |
have their say sooner than that. The opportunity yesterday and formally | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
asking her about the problems that might arise if the Queen 's speech | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
was to take place during the course of the referendum campaign. She | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
kindly dealt with that, there is a report this morning that the Queen | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
's speech will now be held in July, could she confirm if that is the | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
case? I am grateful to the noble Lord, he was indeed helpful | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
yesterday can one of the meetings I have held raising these matters. Can | :17:05. | :17:10. | |
I put it on the record that the answer I gave yesterday, but also | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
respond immediately to his question. I have seen reports in the press, | :17:15. | :17:20. | |
the Times, they made a report, my Lords, that has not been | :17:21. | :17:23. | |
substantiated to me, I am aware of the fact having been Chief Whip for | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
a period of years as well, it would be highly unusual for any | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
announcement of the Queens speech date to be made as early as this. So | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
there is clearly no decision on that matter but I refer to the important | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
fact he does raise about the Queen's speech and the interaction with the | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
referendum. There is, I am assured, no inhibition on having the Queen's | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
speech during a period of a referendum itself. That I think and | :17:52. | :17:58. | |
I hope underlines the initial answer I gave yesterday, I am sure there is | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
no letter or inhibition on that going ahead. My Lords, of course it | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
is important that people have enough time to properly inform themselves | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
of all the options and to understand the consequences of their votes. | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
Campaigners on both sides of the ard and must have time to set out their | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
cases and have a full and robust debate. We do believe that the 23rd | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
of June is just the right balance. It also meets the practical | :18:27. | :18:29. | |
requirements of the electoral commission. The assessment of | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
readiness published last week notes that the date, "Does not pose any | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
significant risks to a well-run referendum." As well as setting the | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
date, the statutory insurance also establishes the timing for three key | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
stages of the referendum. They are the designation process of the | :18:49. | :18:55. | |
regulated referendum period itself and the pre-poll reporting | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
requirements which this house will report on closely indeed when the | :19:00. | :19:02. | |
referendum act made its passage through this house. The electoral | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
commission's assessment of this endorses the government's approach | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
on each of these areas and notes that the arrangements for a well-run | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
referendum are well advanced. This has been echoed by the joint | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
committee on statutory instruments and by the lordships secondary | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
legislation scrutiny committee. Those have been the instrument, | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
giving it their usual rigorous scrutiny and I am grateful to the | :19:28. | :19:30. | |
members both of those select committees. Those were content with | :19:31. | :19:37. | |
approach being proposed. It is the means the electro- commission | :19:38. | :19:40. | |
appoints the lead campaigners on one or both sides. We have followed the | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
political parties, and referendums act in allowing a total of six | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
weeks, the application window for campaigners will be opened for four | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
weeks from the 4th of March, worthy house to agree later today the | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
statutory instrument to be approved. The commission would then have two | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
weeks, on the first to the 14th of April to decide which, if any, | :20:07. | :20:09. | |
applicants to designate. Noble Lords, many of here who took an | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
active part in the passage of the act, many will remember that | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
designated leader campaigners will receive a number of benefits. | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
Including, but higher spending limit of ?7 million. The free delivery of | :20:24. | :20:30. | |
mailings to every household or every elector. And assuming campaigners | :20:31. | :20:33. | |
are designated on both sides, access to a grant of ?600,000 and a | :20:34. | :20:41. | |
campaign broadcast. My Lords, the regulated referendum period allows, | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
follows the designation process thereafter with no overlap of dates. | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
It will then run for ten weeks from the 15th of April. During this | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
period, full financial and campaigning controls will apply, in | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
particular, spending limits for campaigners. I stress this point | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
because of course, this timetable specifically meets the requests made | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
by members of this house during the passage of the referendum act. Lord | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
Willoughby will speak on this point today. My Lords, finally, the | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
statutory instrument sets deadlines for registered campaigners to report | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
any donations all loans to the electoral commission. It is indeed | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
the first time in a UK wide referendum that sources of | :21:31. | :21:32. | |
significant campaign finance will be visible and public before the poll, | :21:33. | :21:39. | |
ensuring real transparency. This process was refined during the | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
passage through this house of the EU referendum act. I must thank in | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
particular the noble Lord, Lord Jay, for leading that debate with his | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
customary eloquence. At the end of this opening speech, I shall move | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
that the statutory instrument should be agreed to but of course, my | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
Lords, the formal view of the house on that matter will be taken at the | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
very end of proceedings tonight. My Lords, time and -- turning to the EU | :22:06. | :22:11. | |
negotiation. The British public made it clear that they were not content | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
with the UK's relationship with Europe. The Prime Minister sought to | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
address that. In November last year, the wrote to the president of the | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
European Council setting out in detail the four areas in which he | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
was seeking to change the EU. To seek change that would be brought | :22:31. | :22:37. | |
forward. These were economic governance, competitiveness, | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
sovereignty and welfare, which has been aligned with migration in the | :22:43. | :22:48. | |
press. The Prime Minister negotiated a deal covering each of these areas | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
and this deal gives the UK a special status within the EU that no | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
arrangement outside the EU could match. It is a good deal for Britain | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
as the Prime Minister has said, it is a deal that gives us the best of | :23:03. | :23:04. | |
both worlds. This agreement is legally binding | :23:05. | :23:16. | |
and reversible cause it can be amended or revoked if every single | :23:17. | :23:19. | |
member state of the EU, including ours in the UK, where to agree | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
unanimously to do so. It commits member states to future treaty | :23:26. | :23:32. | |
change. Last week, it was registered with the United Nations as an | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
international treaty. Taking each of the four issues that the Prime | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
Minister addressed in turn, let me set out briefly what the deal gives | :23:42. | :23:49. | |
us. My Lords, I do appreciate that the noble lord will have had the | :23:50. | :23:52. | |
opportunity to look at the White Paper last week and to have | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
considered other documents being published since then. On economic | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
governance, the re-negotiation secures UK's position inside of the | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
single market but outside of the single currency. It means we have | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
new commitments from the EU, to complete the single market and sign | :24:10. | :24:16. | |
you trade deals. The responsibility for the financial stability of the | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
UK remains in the hands of the Bank of England and other UK authorities. | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
-- new trade deals. We've made sure we will never join Europe, British | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
taxpayers will never be required to bail out the Eurozone. British | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
businesses cannot be discriminated against for not being in the | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
Eurozone. All discussions on matters that affect all EU member states | :24:38. | :24:45. | |
will involve all EU member states including the United Kingdom, not | :24:46. | :24:52. | |
just members. Of Eurozone. My Lords, on competitiveness, every | :24:53. | :24:54. | |
negotiation delivers a new commitment from the European | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
Commission, to review annually the third of regulation on business. If | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
there is too much red tape, with marketers cut. There is a specific | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
focus on relieving the burden on small businesses and for key | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
sectors. The agreement makes clear that the EU will pursue an active | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
and ambitious trade policy. And it must feast is international | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
competitiveness in key areas like energy as the digital single market. | :25:24. | :25:30. | |
My Lords, on sovereignty, we are out on ever closer union, we will never | :25:31. | :25:36. | |
be part of a European superstate, the text of the re-negotiation | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
includes a commitment to change the treaties to exclude the UK from ever | :25:40. | :25:45. | |
closer union at the time of their next | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
-- extradition. We have attained new powers to block unwanted European | :25:50. | :25:56. | |
laws, a legally binding agreement that our Parliament can, acting with | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
some others in Europe, 55% of national parliament's block unwanted | :26:02. | :26:09. | |
EU laws with a red card. A new mechanism will be created to review | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
existing EU laws to ensure compliance with the principles of | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
subsidiarity and proportionality. So that powers can be fought back to | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
member states wherever possible. National parliaments will be | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
involved in this mechanism. And the European Commission will also be | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
required to report every year to the Council on its compliance with these | :26:33. | :26:39. | |
principles. On welfare and migration, and emergency brake will | :26:40. | :26:41. | |
mean people coming to the UK from within the EU will have to wait four | :26:42. | :26:48. | |
years until they have full act as in work benefits. This would take | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
effect when the necessary legislation is passed. European | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
Commission has made clear that Britain already qualifies to deploy | :26:58. | :27:05. | |
that break. Migrants from the EU working in this country will not be | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
able to receive child benefit at UK rates, if their children live in | :27:11. | :27:16. | |
another EU country. My Lords, let's be clear that much has been said | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
elsewhere about the Eagles and is of the deal. -- legal status. This deal | :27:20. | :27:27. | |
is legally finding for EU member states. They all signed up to it in | :27:28. | :27:37. | |
a decision under international law, February European Council | :27:38. | :27:40. | |
conclusions and texts of the deal of grief at the council set this out | :27:41. | :27:47. | |
clearly. They are supported by legal opinions of both Council legal | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
service and Sir Alan- with the -- and Sir Alan Dashwood. It can | :27:52. | :28:04. | |
only be amended or revoked if every single member state including the UK | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
is to agree unanimously. The European Court of justice has held | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
up that decisions of this sort must be taken into consideration as being | :28:15. | :28:17. | |
an instrument for the interpretation of EU treaties. | :28:18. | :28:23. | |
Council president Task has confirmed it, and I quote that the 28 heads of | :28:24. | :28:29. | |
state of government unanimously agreed and adopted a legally binding | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
and reversible settlement for the United Kingdom in the EU -- Tusk. | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
The decision concerning a new settlement is in conformity with the | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
treaties, and cannot be annulled by European court of justice. | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
This new settlement builds on a number of existing protections and | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
opt out which applies to the UK's membership of the EU. This means the | :28:55. | :29:00. | |
UK now has a special status within the EU. Inside those areas of | :29:01. | :29:08. | |
activity, where it is in the UK's interest, but outside those words is | :29:09. | :29:15. | |
not in their interest. I've already mentioned we are not under the | :29:16. | :29:18. | |
standard obligation for member states to join the euro. We will | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
always keep the pound. The UK has remained outside of the Schengen | :29:25. | :29:27. | |
border free area, meaning that we maintain control over our own | :29:28. | :29:34. | |
borders. The UK has opted out of many measures in the Justice and | :29:35. | :29:37. | |
home affairs field, while opting into those that are essential to | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
protect the security of this country. Noble lord is with the | :29:43. | :29:49. | |
aware that today, we laid before Parliament the latest document | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
intended to inform the public ahead of the referendum -- lords. This is | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
the most recent in a series of papers for filling the commitments I | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
make to this house during a passage of the referendum bill before it | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
became the act. There were calls across the house to ensure that | :30:07. | :30:09. | |
voters went into this debate with all of the information that they | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
needed. The government listened carefully and fought forward | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
amendments to the bill in response to all of the positions that forward | :30:18. | :30:21. | |
five years from every single French around the house. -- by peers. | :30:22. | :30:30. | |
It's the best of both worlds, the UK special status and a reformed EU. It | :30:31. | :30:36. | |
fulfils the obligation under section six of the referendum act, requiring | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
the Secretary of State to set out the results of the re-negotiation is | :30:41. | :30:50. | |
and the government's view. My second paper details the process of | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
withdrawing from the EU, but not specifically mandated in | :30:56. | :30:58. | |
legislation, this paper published on Monday, Article 50, meet the | :30:59. | :31:05. | |
commitments that I made to the house on 23rd of November. Today, a third | :31:06. | :31:12. | |
paper was published. It sets out the alternatives to membership of the EU | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
and sets out unequivocally the government's view, that none of the | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
alternative models of association with the EU offer anything like such | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
a good balance of advantages, obligations and influence as we get | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
from our current special status within the EU. My Lords, this paper | :31:31. | :31:37. | |
is the first part of the report that the government will publish to meet | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
the requirements of section seven subsection one of the European | :31:44. | :31:46. | |
referendum act 2015. The second part of the obligation, the second part | :31:47. | :31:52. | |
of the report, which would provide information about the rights and | :31:53. | :31:55. | |
obligations that would arise as a result of the UK's membership with | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
the EU will be made at a later date. My Lords, I hope not too much later. | :32:01. | :32:08. | |
Both parts of the report are available, eventually, on the | :32:09. | :32:11. | |
website, today's is on the website and a copy is in the printed paper | :32:12. | :32:17. | |
office as soon as the second part is available it will go on the website | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
and go to that office. My Lords, the Prime Minister set out last week | :32:23. | :32:25. | |
that the government's clear recommendation that the UK should | :32:26. | :32:33. | |
remain... I am most grateful to my honourable friend, we all appreciate | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
of the careful way in which she shepherded the referendum bill | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
through this house and indeed there was a request for information, does | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
she not recognise that there is a difference between information and | :32:45. | :32:47. | |
propaganda? My Lords and five, the government is leaving propaganda to | :32:48. | :32:52. | |
those who will be fully designate of the campaign. The filling its full | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
requirements under the act as it should do. This will be a once in a | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
generation moment to shape the future of our country and ultimately | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
it will be for the British public to decide, including members of this | :33:07. | :33:09. | |
house, as a result of the drafting of the act is now. The government | :33:10. | :33:16. | |
has made clear its view -- it fell. The government has come in with a | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
clear mandate to really go see it written's place in Europe and put | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
the changes to the people. The Prime Minister has successfully completed | :33:25. | :33:26. | |
the former, the instrument in front of the house today also at the date | :33:27. | :33:32. | |
for the latter. This is the last piece of legislation that will be | :33:33. | :33:35. | |
debated in this chamber to establish the referendum itself. As such, it | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
represents Parliament taking final steps towards a truly is a moment. | :33:42. | :33:48. | |
-- historic. Given the people of the United Kingdom and Gibraltar their | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
say on membership of the EU. The case for holding the poll on the | :33:54. | :33:56. | |
23rd of June is a simple one, it gives time for a proper debate, | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
without delaying and trying the electorate 's patience. My Lords, | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
there's little point in waiting forever. We have a deal. UK's | :34:08. | :34:13. | |
relationship the EU has been changed and improved by that, it is time for | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
the campaign is to make their case, and for the British people to then | :34:18. | :34:24. | |
decide. Settling the issue for generations. My Lords, at this | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
stage, I refer back to comment I made earlier, that I will now | :34:30. | :34:36. | |
formally move with regard to the statutory instrument before the | :34:37. | :34:38. | |
house, that decision will be made later, I make the formal | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
recommendation that launches us on a historic journey was a referendum in | :34:43. | :34:49. | |
which every single member of this house will be able to make their own | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
individual decision. My Lords, I effectively that the house to prove | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
the European Union referendum, data referendum act etc, regulations | :35:00. | :35:09. | |
2016, I effectively. Question is that this motion be agreed to? My | :35:10. | :35:16. | |
Lords, the starting gun has been fired, the noble lady, the minister, | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
has correctly pointed out that this is the beginning of a historic | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
journey for our country. This is about our country's place in the EU, | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
and in the wider world. It is comforting to hear after so many | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
years of sniping and quick as a full-blooded defence of the EU, from | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
many, if not all quarters, of government is not while we pretend | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
not to enjoy the sight of Cabinet members falling out with each other, | :35:49. | :35:54. | |
over this issue, it is worth underlining that the decision on | :35:55. | :36:00. | |
whether we've remain all the fee is too great a decision for us to fall | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
into party political squabbles -- on whether we've remain in the EU. We | :36:05. | :36:13. | |
now have to do all that we can to secure a remain focused, to put | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
country above party, and do what is in the best interests of this | :36:19. | :36:26. | |
nation. My Lords, as the Minister has stated, it sets out the date of | :36:27. | :36:29. | |
the referendum, the start of the reference period, and the date on | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
which designated organisations can apply for recognition. We have | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
debated many of these issues before and we have no objection to the SI. | :36:40. | :36:49. | |
Other documents before us today is the white paper which sets up the | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
agreement that the Prime Minister negotiated in Brussels in | :36:54. | :36:55. | |
mid-February, and a devastatingly factual document produced by the | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
government on the process for withdrawing from the EU. If you want | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
not sure about which way to vote in this EU referendum -- were not sure. | :37:06. | :37:13. | |
I would suggest that you read the document on the withdrawal process, | :37:14. | :37:16. | |
which makes extremely sobering reading on what would happen in the | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
interim period prior to any future relationship with the EU being | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
concluded. A period that could last for a decade, and could set us an | :37:26. | :37:32. | |
extremely difficult situations as a nation. In addition to this, it is | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
worth reading a document that has come | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
But the fact is there are many of us who would have supported the efforts | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
to remain part of the EU irrespective of the negotiation. We | :37:48. | :37:54. | |
believe our relationship with our nearest neighbours must be much more | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
than the four areas set out in that renegotiation. We think our | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
negotiation is fundamental for access to our largest export market, | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
yes is critical for us to ensure safety for our citizens, yes is | :38:10. | :38:15. | |
critical for protecting our workers, consumers and the environment, but | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
more than this it sets how we want this country to meet with the wider | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
world. Never before has our country and our word been so interconnected. | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
Never before have we seen international terrorist threats | :38:33. | :38:34. | |
which confront us all. Never before have we seen worldwide emigration on | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
the scale we have seen today and never before have we been quite so | :38:40. | :38:49. | |
aware that something on the other side of the constants will impact | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
our living here in the UK. Now is not the time just to be turning our | :38:54. | :39:01. | |
backs. Whilst the US is signing partnership deals with Pacific | :39:02. | :39:04. | |
nations is not the time to be retreating into splendid isolation | :39:05. | :39:10. | |
with no assurance of market access. And now when Russia is menacing in | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
the central Europe and the Middle East is an upheaval, now is not the | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
time to be reneging on solidarity and threatening our own national | :39:20. | :39:26. | |
security. Now is the time to show leadership in Europe. Safe in the | :39:27. | :39:36. | |
knowledge that we have strength in numbers. Had he promised a decade | :39:37. | :39:46. | |
supply of the finest Belgian beer, had he guaranteed a place in the | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
European cup final for every UK nation, had he guaranteed lovely | :39:53. | :39:57. | |
sunny days for the next three years, they would still have said no. They | :39:58. | :40:04. | |
believe we need to re-game serenity. But where was our serenity last week | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
-- regain, when the pound plummeted and the market decided this and | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
security was bad for our economy. Where was our serenity when we need | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
to ask Italy to send back one of the London bombers and there was our | :40:19. | :40:21. | |
surrender to and where would it be when we have to go back to our | :40:22. | :40:27. | |
continental colleagues in the events of a no vote and beg for access to | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
their market of 500 consumers and an economy of almost ?11 trillion. I | :40:33. | :40:38. | |
have heard the argument that the EU has a trade surplus with the UK said | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
they will want to trade with us. But this does not take account of the | :40:43. | :40:48. | |
fact that exports to the UK account for 3% of EU GDP whilst our exports | :40:49. | :40:54. | |
to the EU accounts for 14% of our GDP. Only in Cyprus and Ireland does | :40:55. | :41:04. | |
the UK represents more than 10% of total exports. Half of the EU trade | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
surplus with the UK is accounted for by just two member states, Germany | :41:10. | :41:15. | |
and the Netherlands. And yet every single one of the EU member states | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
would have a veto on what that agreement would look like. Can we | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
honestly be confident that they would all be willing to sign on the | :41:25. | :41:27. | |
dotted line in a generous trade deal. The leave campaign seems to | :41:28. | :41:34. | |
have a schizophrenic attitude towards EU member states. On the one | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
hand, they say that the E is constantly ganging up on the UK and | :41:40. | :41:46. | |
that they have no influence, where we to leave they say the member | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
states would rule over -- roll over, allow us to tickle tummies and would | :41:53. | :42:00. | |
accept a new... Serenity in an interconnected world is a fantasy | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
concept. What the outers are offering is a dream ticket. A ticket | :42:05. | :42:12. | |
promising a better life, they have no idea nor common belief in what | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
the dream looks like. Where it may lead, nor can they offer any | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
practical pathway zero route to get to their promised land. Does the | :42:21. | :42:28. | |
Honourable Lady agree that although we have 3 million jobs making things | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
and selling things to clients in the European Union, they have for a half | :42:35. | :42:37. | |
million jobs selling things to us. As she agreed that they need our | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
free trade much more than we need bears and that it will therefore | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
continue? -- bears. The noble Lord clearly wasn't listening, I have | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
just explained that there are other member states, every single one of | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
them, some of who do not have a trade surplus with as food may not | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
sign on the dotted line in terms of a future trade agreement. The fact | :43:02. | :43:08. | |
is 3% of our GDP is dependent on our relationship with the EU was 12%, | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
sorry 12% of our GDP is dependent on the relationship and 3% of bears. | :43:15. | :43:22. | |
They have the upper hand in the terms of negotiating strategy. My | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
lords in light of the that nobody knows which way the public vote, I | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
wonder if the Minister in his summing up could let us know as the | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
Government made any contingency plans in terms of what would happen | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
in the case of UK withdrawal if there were to be a run on the pound? | :43:40. | :43:46. | |
However there are many people in this country who have yet to decide. | :43:47. | :43:53. | |
It is these people we will have too convinced in the next few months in | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
the merit of our arguments. It is these people who I believe the Prime | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
Minister was trying to reach out to in his attempt at renegotiation, | :44:02. | :44:09. | |
they may be relieved that we are not on an inexorable route to close | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
integration. They will be consoled by the guarantee that we have a full | :44:15. | :44:19. | |
say on the rules of the single market whilst remaining outside the | :44:20. | :44:25. | |
euro zone and comforted by the knowledge that EU citizens will have | :44:26. | :44:28. | |
two paper for taking out of welfare system. The negotiations will be | :44:29. | :44:35. | |
legally binding and will take effect immediately after the British people | :44:36. | :44:43. | |
vote to remain. The information which will help our citizens rights | :44:44. | :44:52. | |
and issues, which was requested by noble Lords will be invaluable to | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
this group of people and we look forward to that. My lords the E is | :44:56. | :45:06. | |
far from perfect. Whilst we sit here in our guild clattered centuries-old | :45:07. | :45:14. | |
institution,... I should reassure I have been listening carefully, could | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
she explained what role the World Trade Organisation would have should | :45:20. | :45:21. | |
there be any form of embargo were we to leave? It is not | :45:22. | :45:33. | |
about restriction on trade, the fact is we would have two renegotiate a | :45:34. | :45:36. | |
completely new deal. We have no idea. We still have access to EU | :45:37. | :45:43. | |
markets, 50% of our trade is with the European Union and if we went | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
along with the BTO agreement then we would have to start paying tariffs | :45:48. | :45:53. | |
on our exports. It may be that the noble Lord things that would be a | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
good idea for producers in this country, I believe it would be fatal | :45:58. | :46:01. | |
for many in particular of our small businesses. Can she tell me what | :46:02. | :46:13. | |
does she think workers will lose at the Airbus factory, if their | :46:14. | :46:20. | |
government put a tariff on the engines made by Rolls-Royce, on the | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
wings made by British Aerospace and on the landing gear manufactured by | :46:25. | :46:30. | |
Doughty here, would they refuse to accept those and still expect buyers | :46:31. | :46:36. | |
from overseas to buy an aeroplane with no engine, wings or no landing | :46:37. | :46:43. | |
gear? I am glad he asked me about Airbus because it is a major | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
manufacturing industry in northern Wales. They have assured me that | :46:49. | :47:02. | |
they are very much in favour of retaining their membership of the | :47:03. | :47:08. | |
European Union. The period when of course they could not just reach | :47:09. | :47:14. | |
retrain that facility aboard and I can tell you the French and the | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
Germans would be very happy to receive their ability to build wings | :47:19. | :47:24. | |
on the continents rather than having those built in our country. This is | :47:25. | :47:32. | |
my lords a critical issue, in particular for the 7000 workers in | :47:33. | :47:41. | |
North Wales. My lords the EU is far from perfect, we are sitting here in | :47:42. | :47:48. | |
our guild clattered centuries-old institution, the determining | :47:49. | :47:54. | |
membership and quirky yet endearing expressions. Who are we to be | :47:55. | :48:00. | |
throwing stones at an institution which has had less than 60 years to | :48:01. | :48:06. | |
establish itself. Yes the EU needs reform, not this just one-off reform | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
but a constant reform to adapt to the needs of the requirements of our | :48:11. | :48:16. | |
age as indeed do our own institutions in the UK. We have as a | :48:17. | :48:25. | |
nation a moral and practical interest in preventing conflict. In | :48:26. | :48:28. | |
stopping terrorism and supporting the poorest in the world, stopping | :48:29. | :48:33. | |
climate change but to deal with these points we need our global | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
institutions to function well, to cope with the challenges. We either | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
do this together through bodies like the EU and the UN or we will find to | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
our cost, that our ability to influence these challenges | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
independently will be restricted. How many would hear Britain's voice | :48:54. | :49:00. | |
whispering in the world. The EU also needs the UK. It needs us to be at | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
the top of the table to help reduce the burden on business, to ensure | :49:06. | :49:09. | |
that we fight protectionism and trade dumping. We need the EU, the | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
EU has given us a clear water, clean air, safer food, anti-discrimination | :49:15. | :49:21. | |
laws, maternity and paternity leave, billions invested in our poorest | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
communities, 3 billion a year for our struggling farmers. 3.5 million | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
British jobs depending on our relationship with our nearest | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
neighbour. We have seen caps on bankers bonuses, capping credit and | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
debit card fees, health and safety laws which have saved countless | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
lives, paid holidays and protection for part-time workers. But, we | :49:46. | :49:51. | |
cannot and we should not duck the immigration argument. It is true | :49:52. | :49:57. | |
that immigration does bring pressures to some of our | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
communities, but let us not forget that EU citizens make a net fiscal | :50:03. | :50:08. | |
contribution to this country. They stuff our hospitals, process our | :50:09. | :50:11. | |
food and a central to the hospitality industry, let us remind | :50:12. | :50:19. | |
people that 2 million of our own citizens have taken advantage of the | :50:20. | :50:22. | |
E to make their homes on the continent. -- EU. In DJ some in our | :50:23. | :50:33. | |
chamber. A week and EU which is likely to happen will not be in the | :50:34. | :50:39. | |
interests of this country, lets not forget that whatever else the EU has | :50:40. | :50:43. | |
achieved or not achieved, there has been a peace dividend for over 60 | :50:44. | :50:51. | |
years. In what was up until 94 - 95 the bloodiest continent in the | :50:52. | :50:54. | |
world. We should not take peaceful granted. My lords the decision | :50:55. | :51:00. | |
whether we remain or leave the European Union is probably the most | :51:01. | :51:03. | |
important political decision that my generation will ever make. The new | :51:04. | :51:10. | |
agreement has now been set out. Our party be at the forefront of the | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
campaign to ensure that we retain our membership and that we can | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
remain a strong and powerful voice in our challenging and changing | :51:19. | :51:20. | |
world. My lords the Liberal Democrat | :51:21. | :51:31. | |
benches welcome the fact that the Prime Minister has completed his | :51:32. | :51:34. | |
renegotiation with the settlement on the UK's membership of the European | :51:35. | :51:39. | |
Union that allows him to campaign passionately heart and soul, to keep | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
the UK in the European Union. We welcome the fact that this is the | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
position of Her Majesty 's government. Even if it is not the | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
position of all her ministers or indeed all of the former ministers | :51:54. | :51:59. | |
who are sitting in ranks directly opposite me. I should start by | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
thanking the noble lady for accepting amendments during the | :52:04. | :52:09. | |
process of the EU Referendum Bill which to bring forward the reports | :52:10. | :52:11. | |
to renegotiation such as the one today. The best of both worlds. I | :52:12. | :52:20. | |
believe that this came as an amendment by the Lord of John Lee, I | :52:21. | :52:25. | |
am very sorry that he feels it is propaganda and not a factual | :52:26. | :52:28. | |
document that he was looking for. But nevertheless we are grateful | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
that this document has come forward and indeed the other reports that | :52:33. | :52:37. | |
have come out and are promised on the consequences of withdrawal, the | :52:38. | :52:44. | |
process and alternatives to membership in the possible event | :52:45. | :52:46. | |
that the UK leads the European Union. My lords the present report | :52:47. | :52:52. | |
and the European Council conclusions of the 19th of February make clear | :52:53. | :52:57. | |
that the United Kingdom already has a unique position within the | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
European Union. We have a permanent opt out from the year and the | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
Schengen agreement were not part of the Schengen border controls and we | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
have flexibility in the aspects of freedom, security and justice and | :53:12. | :53:12. | |
police and judicial co-operation. We are not signed up to every aspect | :53:13. | :53:21. | |
of the EU, even in current circumstances. | :53:22. | :53:24. | |
The re-negotiation goes further, creating a special relationship for | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
the UK within the EU, which ensures the UK will not be bound by the | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
concept of ever closer union. Not something that, I believe, Liberal | :53:35. | :53:38. | |
Democrats were too hung up on. It's an issue that seems to have affected | :53:39. | :53:42. | |
many people concerned, that European integration would go to far. | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
It has now stopped. The renegotiation provides guarantees | :53:47. | :53:53. | |
for the City of London, banks to a commitment of non-discrimination for | :53:54. | :53:55. | |
non-Eurozone members of the EU. And an emergency brake. Those who wish | :53:56. | :53:59. | |
to leave the EU would do well to consider whether it is realistic to | :54:00. | :54:05. | |
imagine that the 27 would give us such a privileged position if they | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
were on the outside. Certainly, if they simply decided that we know -- | :54:10. | :54:17. | |
no longer wanted to be part of the club and withdrew. The evidence | :54:18. | :54:20. | |
suggests that they would not. Her Majesty's government would seek to | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
re-negotiate in the event of a vote to leave on the 23rd of June. | :54:26. | :54:31. | |
Possibly running parallel with article 50, that mechanism, I went | :54:32. | :54:34. | |
say negotiation because we do not get to it -- I won't say negotiation | :54:35. | :54:41. | |
because we do not get to negotiate should we wish to leave. | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
Seeking to exit is an unknown direction. Nobody has tried it to | :54:46. | :54:50. | |
date. It is hard to see how any changes would benefit the UK. I do | :54:51. | :54:56. | |
not wish to engage in project fear, but it is unclear, for example, what | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
would happen to EU nationals resident in the UK. Or, UK nationals | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
such as noble lord Lord Lawson, who we understand lives in France. | :55:07. | :55:12. | |
Should we vote to leave the EU. I don't imagine there would be an | :55:13. | :55:19. | |
immediate move to repatriate UK nationals resident abroad but maybe | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
we don't want to take that risk? More seriously, there are a huge | :55:24. | :55:30. | |
number of unknown surrounding the kind of access that British citizens | :55:31. | :55:37. | |
would have to engage in under the event of a vote to leave. It may be | :55:38. | :55:41. | |
possible to negotiate rights to those already resident or working | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
elsewhere in the EU or have retired elsewhere in the EU. Such access, if | :55:46. | :55:52. | |
it is to be similar to the rights we enjoy today, would undoubtably come | :55:53. | :55:55. | |
with reciprocal rights. We would not simply be able to say that British | :55:56. | :56:01. | |
nationals resident in other EU states could remain, but if we | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
decided that we did not want EU nationals to be resident in the UK, | :56:06. | :56:08. | |
we could somehow send them home. We need to think about that. Those who | :56:09. | :56:13. | |
wish to leave, they are almost certainly correct that our EU | :56:14. | :56:18. | |
partners would not want to sever all ties. I don't believe for a moment | :56:19. | :56:22. | |
that a vote to leave would simply mean that we are on the outside | :56:23. | :56:28. | |
completely separated. That is in the bronze of fancy on the negative | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
side. It would be extraordinarily arrogant to assume that the UK is so | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
important to the EU that we would be accorded all of the rights of full | :56:39. | :56:45. | |
members once we decide to leave but without any responsibilities, to | :56:46. | :56:47. | |
suggest otherwise would be in the realms of deluded fantasy. After | :56:48. | :56:54. | |
all, those states with full access to the market fired the European | :56:55. | :56:57. | |
economic area are required to contribute to the EU budget, abide | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
by the rules, yet they do not have a seat at the table. Pay, oboe, no | :57:03. | :57:07. | |
say, as it was put Brussels recently. -- oh -- obay. | :57:08. | :57:21. | |
We would be expected to contribute financially, and still be bound by | :57:22. | :57:24. | |
the full freedoms. Including the freedoms we seem to like for the | :57:25. | :57:29. | |
movement of goods and capital and services -- obey. The free movement | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
were ambivalent about the free movement of people. The Prime | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
Minister's we negotiation has secured some limits on free movement | :57:39. | :57:44. | |
which would be triggered on the vote remain. It would surely be unwilling | :57:45. | :57:53. | |
to make new alternative special arrangements for the UK after any | :57:54. | :57:59. | |
votes to walk away. I staying in the EU, we can exert influence, without, | :58:00. | :58:07. | |
by leaving, we lose it. Some members of this house would say that this is | :58:08. | :58:17. | |
undemocratic, that somehow the new parliament is lacking. I find this | :58:18. | :58:21. | |
somewhat a strange argument put forward in your Lordships house, | :58:22. | :58:27. | |
where most members, with the exception of hereditary peers, 90 of | :58:28. | :58:34. | |
them, not here on a Democratic mandate. As a member, the UK has a | :58:35. | :58:40. | |
seat at the table. We have many seats at the table, within the | :58:41. | :58:46. | |
European Parliament, the Council of ministers, and the European Council, | :58:47. | :58:48. | |
not to mention a European Commissioner currently drawn as was | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
his predecessor from your Lordships house. We play a full part in | :58:53. | :58:57. | |
decision-making, as a member of the union. There is no conceivable | :58:58. | :59:03. | |
alternative arrangements to membership that would give such | :59:04. | :59:07. | |
influence. The Norwegians would tell you that. Yes, by leaving, we could | :59:08. | :59:11. | |
formally regain sovereignty but at the expense of power and influence, | :59:12. | :59:18. | |
an illusion of sovereignty, as the Prime Minister put it. The idea of | :59:19. | :59:22. | |
regaining control of our borders is nothing but a siren call, the UK is | :59:23. | :59:29. | |
not yet part of the Schengen border regime, we still monitor our own | :59:30. | :59:32. | |
borders. A vote to leave wouldn't alter that, but it would make us | :59:33. | :59:38. | |
less secure as we would be walking away from an effective cross-border | :59:39. | :59:44. | |
corporation on policing, their EU arrest warrant, and the Schengen | :59:45. | :59:48. | |
information system. Errors of co-operation which, at present, show | :59:49. | :59:53. | |
how far the UK has the best of both worlds, access to EU structures | :59:54. | :59:56. | |
where we want them, exemptions where we don't. In conclusion, my lords, | :59:57. | :00:02. | |
it is the view of these Liberal Democrat benches that the UK is | :00:03. | :00:06. | |
better off and more secure remaining in the EU. It is good for the United | :00:07. | :00:11. | |
Kingdom and good for peace and security in the EU. We look forward | :00:12. | :00:14. | |
to campaigning with the Prime Minister for a vote to remain. | :00:15. | :00:24. | |
On the issue of influence in the EU, I know that she is very expert on | :00:25. | :00:27. | |
European matters, could she confirm that in the last 20 years, UK has | :00:28. | :00:34. | |
sought an amendment in the Council of ministers on 72 occasions and | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
been defeated on 72 occasions? My Lords, there are all sorts of | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
statistics one can use, my understanding is yes, there have | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
been formal votes and the UK has been defeated. There are many cases | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
where there is a process of negotiation and votes have not been | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
held, where the UK is able to have influence. We are able to stop | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
legislation that we do not want working with our partners, on the | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
outside, as a country like Norway, we simply accept that anything is | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
brought, or you walk away from that part of the market, we have the | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
opportunity to influence from the inside, but on the outside we lose | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
even that. My Lords, answering the first | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
question in today's order paper, the fixing of the 23rd of June for a | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
referendum, will not, I suspect, troubled the house for long. It | :01:31. | :01:32. | |
really has to be the government's call. Now that this period of | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
negotiation is over, a case for moving to a vote without | :01:39. | :01:45. | |
unnecessarily extending a period of uncertainty and instability, and | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
volatility, which we are already seeing around us, is surely a | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
convincing one. When the Prime Minister's statement was reported in | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
the house last week, I said that I thought the outcome of reforms that | :01:58. | :02:06. | |
he had achieved were substantive and valuable. Having read the | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
government's detailed account of negotiations in his paper, Best of | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
both Worlds, I'm confirmed in that view. That paper, I found clear and | :02:16. | :02:22. | |
compelling. But I am puzzled that some members of the government, the | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
Lord Chancellor in particular, are challenging some of the content of | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
that paper, which was issued in their name. I'm also puzzled that | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
the critics take so little account of the EU's track record in ordering | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
such post stated commitments to treaty change. In both the Danish | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
and Irish cases, the post dated commitments were wrong in the letter | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
and spirit when the treaties were next amended. Nor, where they ever | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
challenged in the interim by the EU Court of Justice. -- were they. I | :02:56. | :03:10. | |
would recall that "Sticking to your deals" is an absolute rule in | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
Brussels. It is sometimes suggested that if the electorate in June votes | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
to leave the EU, we can then return to Brussels and re-negotiate the | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
re-negotiation. Getting better terms for remaining in the EU. Up to last | :03:27. | :03:33. | |
weekend, it seemed to be the view that Pied Piper of Hamlin in our | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
days, the Mayor of London, he seems to have changed his mind, something | :03:38. | :03:44. | |
he does often, and admits the choice in June is a binary one. In or out. | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
That is wise, because that is what it is. The agreement clearly regards | :03:50. | :03:58. | |
a vote to leave, as requiring asked to trigger the provisions of article | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
50, to establish the terms of our withdrawal. There is not evidence | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
that any of the 27 other member states or the commission or the | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
parliament would be prepared to enter negotiations on any other | :04:12. | :04:19. | |
basis. Indeed, the separate agreement specifically says these | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
reforms would be taken off the table if we vote to leave. We are told by | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
leading Eurosceptics that the EU is rushing headlong towards political | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
union, and despite all that has been said in the agreement about ever | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
closer union, we will be dragged along behind them. Again, that is... | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
There is no real evidence for that assertion at all. Quoting Jacques | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
Delors, not held any office, European or otherwise, for 20 years, | :04:51. | :04:58. | |
that is not evidence. The negative reactions to the Brussels deal are | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
those outside of government to hold those views in other member states. | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
It indicates that year and belief that the EU is not now going to be | :05:06. | :05:12. | |
heading into political union -- their view. These fantasies should | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
surely not be part of the serious national debate that we need to | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
engage in. The issue of sovereignty, mentioned this afternoon, whether | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
pulling it or holding it, is in the country's best interests and will be | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
part of their debate. It is not always well addressed. It is not | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
enough to mention the word sovereignty, and expect the traffic | :05:39. | :05:46. | |
to stop. Since the Second World War, successive governments and | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
parliaments have chosen to exercise our sovereignty collectively with | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
others on matters every bit as weighty as the EU. Article five of | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
the Brussels Treaty, which set up Nato, which commits us to respond | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
militarily, conceivably even in a nuclear exchange to any act of | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
aggression against one of its members, is one such commitment. | :06:11. | :06:17. | |
Memberships with the United Nations and international monetary fund, we | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
accept the compulsory jurisdiction of the International Court of | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
Justice, or the International criminal Court, and of the tribunal | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
of the law of the sea. None of this polling of sovereignty is being | :06:32. | :06:34. | |
contested in the current debate, when it is contested in the EU | :06:35. | :06:42. | |
context, it is reasonable to take account of those other instances and | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
recognise that what we are really discussing is the case for a rules | :06:48. | :06:54. | |
-based international community, in contrast to shifting back into a new | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
world disorder. One thing that makes no sense is any suggestion that the | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
decision in June is not that important. That the outcome does not | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
really matter that much and everything will be much the same the | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
day afterwards as the day before. We are, in all probability, talking | :07:14. | :07:19. | |
about the survival of, or the failure to survive, of two unions, | :07:20. | :07:26. | |
not one. And about an irreversible shift in Britain's role in the world | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
which it would be too late to regret, should the electorate | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
decides to leave the EU. My Lords, I welcome the statuary in | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
Schmidt which clears the way nicely to the referendum. -- instrument. I | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
dislike the way the whole debate has become somewhat personalised. | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
Obviously, with the eager hope of the media. I sure your Lordships I | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
have good friends on both sides of the ultimate and I intend to keep it | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
that way. I hope we can stick as the late Tony Benn used to say, to the | :08:03. | :08:04. | |
issues. First I believe Britain enjoyed the | :08:05. | :08:17. | |
leave at the wrong time or at least leave at the wrong time or at least | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
talking about it. We are discussing getting out on the whole EU is | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
evolving in entirely new direction is driven by major new world forces. | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
A change which seems to have escaped the notice of many of the levers and | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
indeed on both sides of the remain inside as well. Secondly, I greatly | :08:34. | :08:41. | |
admire the tenacity and energy shown by my right honourable friend the | :08:42. | :08:43. | |
Prime Minister over the deal which we are debating. But I do have to | :08:44. | :08:52. | |
say I don't think it will be entirely a major central influence | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
on how people vote in the referendum although it has certainly opened up | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
all sorts of reform ambitions in other member states all around | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
Europe as anyone can see by reading the Continental newspapers. I | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
believe the way people will be influenced and vote will be by one | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
overriding a much deeper issue and that is whether they think that the | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
EU is heading inevitably for an integrated super stated political | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
union centralised and all-powerful Eurocurrency and dragging us into | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
the mangle against our interests in which case we should certainly leave | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
and stand clear whether Europe is in reality evolving by necessity into a | :09:36. | :09:42. | |
new model under outside and global impact both good and bad as we can | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
see in the daily papers which prepare us to become far more | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
flexible and will prepare the EU to become more flexible and much less | :09:51. | :09:53. | |
centralised in which case it would be very unwise not to stay and to | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
help steer the new model into being. My lords my own judgment goes to the | :10:00. | :10:07. | |
latter case and staying on for three main reasons. First the peoples of | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
Europe clearly do not once more integration and uniformity that they | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
have already, whatever their leaders may say. The best of both worlds | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
which we are debating asserts that some countries have chosen the path | :10:20. | :10:26. | |
of deeper integration and I wonder if that is right, which are these | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
other countries except perhaps Luxembourg. Some countries may not | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
want to go back beyond the existing cooperation and I see no popular | :10:37. | :10:39. | |
support whatever throughout Europe for a lots more pushing together, | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
integration, centralisation and more intrusion. Over the last decade or | :10:45. | :10:56. | |
so, new supply chains and new modes of production have been utterly | :10:57. | :10:59. | |
transforming the old European Union model. Even the single market is not | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
what it seemed in the last century. Certainly for services the spy | :11:06. | :11:14. | |
services being 80% of our GDP and at least 40% of earnings as the | :11:15. | :11:22. | |
Government papers remind us. When that is depicted as a dominant and | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
fearsome force ganging up against us, from which we must be sheltered, | :11:26. | :11:32. | |
it is in fact deeply and chronically sick. I see nothing the crisis and | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
division ahead and I am glad the noble Lord, now agrees with me on | :11:39. | :11:48. | |
that. Third my lords, hugely market outside the EU are opening up which | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
are not alternatives to the EU but ones which we must succeed in Asia, | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
Africa and Latin America, that is where the big prizes are. In short | :11:58. | :12:06. | |
my lords, we have two ride both horses. The immediate priority is | :12:07. | :12:19. | |
reform, deep reform. To me the digital age to meet new conditions | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
and not the total transformation of world energy which is now going on. | :12:24. | :12:30. | |
As the paper says repeatedly that work is not over. Indeed it is just | :12:31. | :12:37. | |
beginning. My lords in that work, all our history tells us we can and | :12:38. | :12:45. | |
must play a central part. My lords I want to support what the Prime | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
Minister negotiated in Brussels and I hope that others on both sides of | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
this house would do so. However we got to this point, we have two | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
realise that it is a national fight that we have our fights now and for | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
the country sake we have all of us got to ensure that they have wings. | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
They cannot allow British business and their employees to take such a | :13:14. | :13:22. | |
hit for the sake of political aims and whims of those who simply cannot | :13:23. | :13:29. | |
understand the difference between taking control of our country of | :13:30. | :13:38. | |
exercising... Those who simply cannot understand how yes you can | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
diminish your sovereignty as you enter a transnational treaty or | :13:45. | :13:51. | |
institution but then you get back in return a real increase in your power | :13:52. | :14:00. | |
to affect public policy, big events that all of us face. Be under no | :14:01. | :14:10. | |
illusion my lords the coming referendum presents a profound | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
moments and once the die is cast, a lot of -- there will be no turning | :14:17. | :14:26. | |
back. I cannot believe the European Union for economic and trade | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
purposes can be treated as we are still in it. That is the inescapable | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
fact. Let's be clear what that means. Let's become a bigger version | :14:38. | :14:47. | |
than Norway accepting all the laws and rules, by the way paying quite a | :14:48. | :14:57. | |
healthy sum into the budget with the privilege of doing so, or if we | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
wanted to become some variation of Switzerland which has no power | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
sporting rights for its financial services. Leaving would mean no more | :15:09. | :15:17. | |
unhindered or unfettered to the single market in Europe. Our | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
business and other exporters, it would mean continuing to expect | :15:24. | :15:30. | |
European norms and standards as a condition for the market access that | :15:31. | :15:38. | |
we are granted. It means once the divorce is promulgated after the | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
two-year article 50 process, facing a return to EU tariffs before it is | :15:42. | :15:51. | |
finally negotiated and struck between us. That means we would be | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
paying EU tariffs on our exports and imports which means higher prices in | :15:57. | :16:02. | |
our shops. If the noble Lord wouldn't mind. It would mean losing | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
the preferential trading benefits in foreign | :16:10. | :16:12. | |
until such time and it would be a long time for we were able to | :16:13. | :16:25. | |
renegotiate them. It would potentially mean havoc to raise our | :16:26. | :16:35. | |
own tariffs, it would no longer be covered by WTO compliant agreements | :16:36. | :16:45. | |
is. I am not going to... Is this my time or the local zero is time that | :16:46. | :16:52. | |
he's eating into? I'm most grateful. Could I ask him he has talked about | :16:53. | :17:02. | |
access to the market and the cost as he sees it but if this is so | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
catastrophic we explain how invisible trade in goods, the United | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
States without being part of the single market has managed to sell | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
considerably more than we have two the market and even in terms of | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
services, the United States sells over 200 early in dollars worth the | :17:23. | :17:30. | |
year. I'm not just talking about invisible services but British | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
exports and British jobs and what we would be paying in addition to get | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
our goods and all that we contribute to supply, I'm not going to dwell on | :17:40. | :17:54. | |
the implications of leaving. Anyone freed from the so-called | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
protectionist shackles of Brussels that we could somehow be around | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
bagging major new free-trade agreements. Like a low hanging fruit | :18:05. | :18:12. | |
really does need a reality check. This is not the 1970s which was when | :18:13. | :18:19. | |
Britain last attempted an international free trade agreement. | :18:20. | :18:27. | |
We have no people and no negotiating capacity left in Whitehall, we have | :18:28. | :18:34. | |
to rebuild from scratch and more to the point there are not the | :18:35. | :18:42. | |
countries queueing up to negotiate like us. We are a mid-sized, mature | :18:43. | :18:52. | |
and ready open at advanced Western economy, what others are seeking | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
trade agreements with, they arrive at large blocks of countries or the | :18:58. | :19:07. | |
larger younger faster growing, relatively closed economy with a lot | :19:08. | :19:10. | |
more to bargain into an negotiate than we have to offer and that is | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
the reality of international trade and we have to grasp it. Let me | :19:16. | :19:22. | |
finish if I make my lords. By going to my original point. About what the | :19:23. | :19:32. | |
Prime Minister 's has said in Brussels. This package is not | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
everything but nor is it nothing. In particular the renegotiation, the | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
package missing members of the public with doubts, people are | :19:44. | :19:50. | |
genuinely sceptical minds, that they can support UK membership again. The | :19:51. | :20:01. | |
EU's talk with an ever closer union is not a provision driving | :20:02. | :20:10. | |
continuous integration of EU nationals to unconditional and | :20:11. | :20:21. | |
immediate and appropriate as an single currency in Europe which we | :20:22. | :20:27. | |
should neither join nor should our businesses suffer any discrimination | :20:28. | :20:30. | |
from as a result of being outside it. My lords this is not the end of | :20:31. | :20:37. | |
reform in Europe, it is a start, reform is a process and it is not an | :20:38. | :20:45. | |
event. This package is in effect a bridge, which is a bridge that | :20:46. | :20:48. | |
people with genuine doubts can walk back across to support the European | :20:49. | :20:56. | |
Union in good faith. And I hope they would do so on June the 23rd. My | :20:57. | :21:03. | |
lords it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Lord and may I say | :21:04. | :21:11. | |
in particular when he said Europe is at last changing and as a last | :21:12. | :21:14. | |
feeling the impetus of external events which cause the reform. It is | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
at such a bad time, especially when we have friends like Germany who can | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
help is reform and change Europe in the direction he spoke about and | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
that I would strongly support. Where is I don't think my memory is false | :21:29. | :21:37. | |
were I to hearing Mr Michael Gove hearing in the context of the | :21:38. | :21:40. | |
Scottish referendum saying to the people of Scotland, we accept of | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
course you are a nation, we accept you have sovereignty but we believe | :21:45. | :21:47. | |
your sovereignty is best exercised when pulled with that of the United | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
Kingdom in Scotland's interest. There you have it, that is the | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
argument quite so. It strikes me as that having articulated that and | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
realise that fact that he then makes the conclusion that what is good for | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
Scotland is not good for the United Kingdom within the European Union. | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
The case for getting out seems to me to rest on a strangely old-fashioned | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
view of sovereignty, almost Victorian, the days of the budget | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
and dicey when all power rested in the nation state. This is no longer | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
true, I suspect there is more power resting on the global stage today | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
that affects the lives of ordinary citizens than is rested and vested | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
in the institutions of the nation states like ourselves. The question | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
is how do you deal with that? The truth of it is that there was a day | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
when you could avoid politics from -- policies from domestic and | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
foreign, you can no longer do that. There is no domestic issue which has | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
a foreign quotation, not jobs, not the environment and not terrorism, | :22:52. | :22:59. | |
crime, not indeed the creation of systems of security when we pool our | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
sovereignty. We pool our sovereignty from the days of Nato, there is no | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
sovereignty estate has which is more important than this top 20 to defend | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
itself. You will find it entirely in the national interest to pull it | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
with others, to give ourselves protection. | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
The reality is, how do you deal with global forces? Alone, singularly, | :23:20. | :23:28. | |
unilaterally, or in the concert of your friends with who you share | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
interests? It is the latter of the two. There are those who argue that | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
we can set up trade deals with other people taking a long time, ten | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
years, it has not got there yet. It would take a long time to set a | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
trader with say, China. How does that help tackle crime on our | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
streets when it is a European problem, best tackled with the | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
European arrest warrant, on a European basis? How do we create a | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
clean environment for the people in this country, when pollution is no | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
respect of borders, it is the deals with our partners that a liberal | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
what we want for our citizens. I'm a passionate European, I find | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
something attractive to the idea that puts the end to a war of 1000 | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
years with the slaughter of countless millions of our young by | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
bringing us together. I'm a passionate European because I | :24:24. | :24:26. | |
remembered in Bosnia when I was trying to build peace after war, it | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
was the institutions of the European Union that gave me more assistance | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
in creating those institutions of the state, a legal institution, with | :24:36. | :24:41. | |
intelligence services, the EU was a massive soft power that helps to | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
build, acting together, helping create peace after conflict. There | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
is no better but I'm much more passionate European for another | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
reason, there is nothing I want to see delivered for the people of | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
Britain that cannot bear to be delivered by acting in partnership | :25:00. | :25:02. | |
with our European Union partners than by acting alone. Nothing. We | :25:03. | :25:10. | |
can tackle crime better through the European arrest warrant, | :25:11. | :25:12. | |
environmental cleanliness that we need, we can do it on a European | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
basis, we create better security and can tackle refugees better too. | :25:18. | :25:20. | |
People look at this and say it is the refugee issue that is persuading | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
us not to vote for Europe, this is madness, it's not a new problem but | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
an old problem that goes back over 1000 years. The vast patronage of | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
peoples, better dealt with on a regional basis than on a singular | :25:34. | :25:40. | |
one -- passage. If you think it is a new problem, it isn't, but it won't | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
stop at this. This is now going to be one of the great strategic issues | :25:45. | :25:51. | |
of our times, pestilence played by the bubble of global warming, the | :25:52. | :25:54. | |
mass passage of people. Only by working together can we do that, if | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
we were to withdraw, the primary stays right, the probability is that | :25:59. | :26:05. | |
sank that would turn up at Dover. I recognise the European Union is not | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
dealing with it very well but it is hypocritical of us. We've not taken | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
a single one of those miserable, desperate people, travelling across | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
the muddy roads of the Balkans to get to us. We've not provided | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
assistance to one of them. For us to do nothing to solve this problem, | :26:24. | :26:26. | |
and criticise Europe that it cannot deal with a million in a short time, | :26:27. | :26:32. | |
it won't be easy or elegant, but they will get there in time. | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
One we have this as a major strategic issue for us in future, it | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
is working regionally, together, that we can solve that. I went not | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
long ago to Kuala Lumpur, the nations are coming together to sort | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
out the problems of massive movement of people out of the flooding Ganges | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
delta. My Lords, this is the thing I genuinely don't understand, do we | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
not understand how much the terms of trade of our existence have old | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
these last ten or 15 or 20 years? We no longer have a United States | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
looking east across the Atlantic, it looks west across the Pacific. The | :27:10. | :27:16. | |
US won't act as our friend in all circumstances, our defender, they | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
have new interests and they don't necessarily coincide with ours. On | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
our eastern borders, we have a Russian president of aggressively | :27:25. | :27:26. | |
trying to destabilise and divide Europe. Vladimir Putin would be | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
voting for us to leave, that is what he wants us to happen -- wants to | :27:32. | :27:37. | |
see happen. It's been a Russian policy for ages, we will essentially | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
be assisting him. On the south-east, we have the Arab world in flames. To | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
the south, in turbulence reaching right down into Africa. All around, | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
new economic powers growing up, individually more powerful than any | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
individuality of EU nations, we believe that this is the time for us | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
to abandon our solidarity with European neighbours in such a | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
turbulent and dangerous world. This is the time for us to adopt the | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
elusive sovereignty of a cork bobbing around behind other people's | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
ocean liners. That is the way to serve the worst interests of the | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
country. We will diminish our influence, our protection and | :28:21. | :28:27. | |
capacity for success. My Lords, I have to confess that I | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
was rather surprised when I came in to find that I was in such an | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
exalted position, on the speakers lists. Now, I have to follow that | :28:36. | :28:43. | |
impassioned speech. I'm in some difficulty. But, I'll try my best. | :28:44. | :28:52. | |
The first thing I would like to say, I would say this to voters, when the | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
political parties are agreeing... Beware. Beware, beware, beware. I | :28:57. | :29:07. | |
would also say to the government, that referring to the title of this | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
debate, that those who always wish to get the best of both worlds very | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
often get the worst of both worlds. Because, they've been too greedy. I | :29:19. | :29:31. | |
would like to turn to the statutory instrument arranging the referendum | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
for the 23rd of June. I would have thought that the government, bearing | :29:36. | :29:43. | |
in mind that the referendum need not take place until the end of next | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
year, that they would have taken more time in the negotiations to get | :29:50. | :29:57. | |
a better deal than what they have got. And of course they would have | :29:58. | :30:04. | |
had the advantage of asking the Tory party at their conference in October | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
whether they agreed with what they had brought back from the | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
negotiation. I have to declare myself straightaway, I always do. I | :30:16. | :30:22. | |
was against joining the EU see, or common market, in 1973. -- EEC, and | :30:23. | :30:29. | |
I continue to believe that the now EU, which has gained so much | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
additional power in policy fields, other than trade, I'm even more | :30:35. | :30:40. | |
convinced that we should leave it and leave it as soon as possible. | :30:41. | :30:47. | |
And have the power in this country to decide our fate and future. I | :30:48. | :30:56. | |
would like to say to those people who say that the direction of the | :30:57. | :31:04. | |
year is not towards integration and remind them that the beginning of | :31:05. | :31:11. | |
this month, the six original members of what was then the EEC are, in | :31:12. | :31:19. | |
fact, proposing that the Eurozone should become a fiscal power, and | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
have power in military matters as well. So, the direction in actual | :31:26. | :31:31. | |
fact is not backwards but forwards, as they say, to a more integrated | :31:32. | :31:41. | |
Europe. I cannot help feeling that the Prime Minister made a demeaning | :31:42. | :31:53. | |
spectacle when he went to Europe, he did not demand but plead with them | :31:54. | :32:00. | |
to get some concessions which would enable him to recommend that Britain | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
should remain in the EU. I am afraid that he has not come back with | :32:05. | :32:15. | |
anything at all, of that sort. Indeed, the concessions are pitiful. | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
In fact, they are virtually as pitiful as the concessions brought | :32:21. | :32:33. | |
back in 1972 - 73, or was it 74? By Harold Wilson when in actual fact | :32:34. | :32:40. | |
the concessions turned out to be no concessions at all. He also promised | :32:41. | :32:46. | |
that there would be no economic monetary union. He gave that | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
assurance. We know what happened to that assurance. Now, the Prime | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
Minister is assuring the country that we would never join the euro. | :32:57. | :33:07. | |
He cannot make that promise. The Parliamentary situation and Rangers | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
that, no Parliament, as he knows, can combine its successor -- | :33:13. | :33:19. | |
arranges that. There is no agreement, national or otherwise, | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
that can hold the constitutional position so that he is promising | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
something that he cannot properly deliver. I frankly and sick and | :33:28. | :33:36. | |
tired of being told by politicians, self-serving multinationals that | :33:37. | :33:48. | |
Britain must remain in the EU, not only for Britain's sake, but their | :33:49. | :33:56. | |
sakes. Now, we have two arrange our affairs to suit the rest of the | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
world, not our own country. I would remind the government that they are | :34:02. | :34:04. | |
here to serve the British interests, not the interests of those people. | :34:05. | :34:13. | |
Britain has survived and thrived for 1000 years. As an independent | :34:14. | :34:22. | |
country. Even in the face of hostility, from European counties, | :34:23. | :34:31. | |
it could do so free of the into this -- into those of the EU. What we | :34:32. | :34:44. | |
need is a country governed for itself, Britain governing for | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
itself, by its own institutions which have been with us for the last | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
1000 years, and been with us successfully. | :34:54. | :35:00. | |
My Lords, it is easy to be swayed in 1's opinions by powerful speeches in | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
their Lordships house. When I listened to the noble Lord of | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
Swindon, I feel a burning desire to stay within the EU. To be fair on | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
him, when I listened to Lord Mandelson halfway through his | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
speech, I felt an immediate urge to leave. My Lords, it's a while since | :35:18. | :35:27. | |
I last spoke on the EU debate in 1975, I thought it was about time | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
that I tried again! A lot has happened since then, we had the | :35:33. | :35:39. | |
single European act, one must not forget the one political party who | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
campaigned to leave the EU by 1993 led by Michael foot, the Labour | :35:45. | :35:52. | |
Party. I'm slightly Eurosceptic, it's difficult not to be. The euro | :35:53. | :35:57. | |
is a failed concept, Schengen is collapsing, the machine is neither | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
representative or responsive to those it represents. We know the | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
commission 's accounts have not been signed off by auditors for many | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
years. Despite that, we have benefited by being a member of the | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
EU. However, we must not exaggerate its successors. It is not the that | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
has prevented European laws but Nato who kept us safe. Of course my | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
Lords, we can survive easily outside the EU will secure borders and new | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
trade agreements, however long it may take to accomplish. Having said | :36:30. | :36:36. | |
that, following recent success for negotiations, I believe we can also | :36:37. | :36:39. | |
have a better continued future within the EU, within a reformed EU. | :36:40. | :36:47. | |
It isn't an easy process, I found when recently touring European | :36:48. | :36:50. | |
capitals and speaking to their politicians but they all wanted us | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
to stay in the EU. They claim that without us it might collapse, and | :36:56. | :36:58. | |
other countries might leave. Yet those same politicians fought tooth | :36:59. | :37:07. | |
and nail against every change, and centres, when the promised tried to | :37:08. | :37:15. | |
adjust the terms. The European civil servants, the Eurocrats, they seemed | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
accommodating and reasonable in the process. Lined up against the Prime | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
Minister we are formidable opponents. The Prime Minister | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
succeeded way beyond expectations in his negotiations, I've nothing but | :37:30. | :37:32. | |
admiration for how he achieved the outcome. As someone who has known | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
the Prime Minister probably longer and better than anyone else in this | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
chamber, I've never doubted his ability, toughness and | :37:42. | :37:43. | |
determination, and the intellectual rigour that he to these | :37:44. | :37:50. | |
negotiations. The agreements are a substantial change to our | :37:51. | :37:52. | |
relationship with the EU. I think it is fair that we should, I should | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
anyway, ask the minister a couple of questions. Should there be a | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
successful stay in referendum, what would happen if the European | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
Parliament rejected some important elements of the deal, as we know | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
European MEPs cannot be forced to vote one way or the other. The | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
Attorney General has said the European Court has to take the | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
treaty changes into account, and the agreement is legally binding. I'm no | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
lawyer, I look forward to my noble friend explaining to me the European | :38:23. | :38:28. | |
Court has been expansionist in its remit in the past, what happens if | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
it hurt a part or portion of the agreement and rejected it? | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
The other issue the noble Baroness did not mention is that the | :38:38. | :38:45. | |
Government at one point floated the idea of the European Supreme Court | :38:46. | :38:52. | |
to act as a constitutional long stop. I wonder whether this is still | :38:53. | :39:01. | |
a proposal and if my noble friend could tell me how it would work. | :39:02. | :39:09. | |
That is something that can adapt in the ever-changing world. We cannot | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
allow this agreement to be the end of the process of reform. There is | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
no right or wrong in these decisions. There are compelling | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
arguments to both sides but weighing all of the argument is, I will be | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
voting in the referendum to stay. I believe our Prime Minister has made | :39:27. | :39:29. | |
considerable progress and is the best person to lead forward in the | :39:30. | :39:39. | |
reform. This has been a pretty gripping debate so far, and it has | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
only just started. So gripping that I have made all of these scrolls on | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
my notes and have completely ruined them even though I have taken the | :39:51. | :39:56. | |
trouble to type out my speech. I am too a passionate pro-European, but | :39:57. | :40:03. | |
I'm an academic and I would put it in a rather more muted way than Lord | :40:04. | :40:17. | |
Ashdown. As my Lord said this is the most interdependent world by far in | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
which anyone has ever lived. That interdependence might have expanded | :40:23. | :40:28. | |
the global market and an emerging system of global law. It is fuelled | :40:29. | :40:33. | |
development in some of the poorest parts of the world. At the same time | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
large-scale tensions and conflicts have been generated to. Some of them | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
are dangerous and are concentrated in the neighbourhood. Wide range and | :40:45. | :40:51. | |
collaboration to separate benefits from risks. The EU has an essential | :40:52. | :41:02. | |
role to play here as is emphasised. I only wish the opportunity had been | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
taken to question some of the nostrums of those who would have | :41:07. | :41:19. | |
Britain quit. They routinely asserts, the only flexibility and | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
progress as though this were some sort of unquestioned truths. Yet it | :41:24. | :41:33. | |
is obvious it is reducing bureaucracy than the reverse. About | :41:34. | :41:43. | |
the protocols that have to be stuck to, imagine what would happen if 28 | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
states had to agree individual trade deals with one another and in a | :41:48. | :41:55. | |
rolling fashion. As the report makes clear, effective European security | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
depends upon cross-border collaboration, the problem with the | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
refugee crisis today is that such effective collaboration between | :42:06. | :42:11. | |
states rather than an excess of it. In this case the knock-on | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
consequences could be very serious indeed. To me it is a terrifying | :42:16. | :42:23. | |
example in fact. When consensus breaks down, ... Primarily through | :42:24. | :42:32. | |
self-interest. A favourite adage of many Eurosceptics at the end of the | :42:33. | :42:42. | |
day is small is beautiful. I enjoyed my honourable friend speech which | :42:43. | :42:45. | |
was a very most one and I think he has been a very eloquent interpreter | :42:46. | :42:53. | |
of this position. Freed from the shackles of the EU, the UK as it | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
were can float like a butterfly and sting like a bee. Gaily picking up | :42:59. | :43:12. | |
trade deals. Try telling that to negotiators to putting TT IP in | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
place. The biggest free deal and trade deal ever implemented should | :43:18. | :43:23. | |
it be finalised. The US has made it clear that Britain acting in | :43:24. | :43:33. | |
isolation would have no chance. Size my Lord still council stop the EU | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
hold 60% of global trade compared with 14% for China and 10% for the | :43:39. | :43:45. | |
US. The US, China and India have all made it clear that they want the UK | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
to stay in the European Union. Britain exerts much influence in the | :43:50. | :43:55. | |
world given it is a country of 60 million in a world of 7 billion. But | :43:56. | :44:01. | |
it does so in large part through collaboration and an attempt to | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
force common rules within the EU itself in Nato and in the UN. The | :44:07. | :44:19. | |
wood magically allowed the UK to store tight control over | :44:20. | :44:22. | |
immigration, Switzerland is not a member of the union and has | :44:23. | :44:25. | |
negotiated a deal which allows access to a single market as Britain | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
would also have to do. To do so the country had to negotiate new ones | :44:31. | :44:37. | |
with the European Union. Yet Switzerland has a far higher ratio | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
of influence than the UK does. Over twice the proportion in fact. My | :44:43. | :44:52. | |
Lords since I messed up my speech I cut it short, the natural impulse is | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
to revert to traditional battle lines. There are many aspects of the | :44:58. | :45:07. | |
approach taken which could be questioned. Keeping Britain a full | :45:08. | :45:13. | |
and influential member is key to the country's future, I hope all of us | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
who share such ideas will work together on a cross-party basis | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
setting aside political differences to achieve this end. My Lords in | :45:22. | :45:30. | |
well over 40 years as a member of one house or another, I have never | :45:31. | :45:36. | |
before known search a blatant campaign leaked document not a least | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
one which is so economic with the truth masqueraded as a government | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
white paper. The title itself I have to say is a lie. The best of both | :45:47. | :45:54. | |
worlds, the United Kingdom's special status in a reformed European Union. | :45:55. | :46:00. | |
My Lords the European Union has manifestly not been reformed. And | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
such is the nature of the beast is certainly an reformed. Britain's | :46:05. | :46:10. | |
so-called special status may well should we remain in the European | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
Union proved to be not the best but the worst of both worlds. Those of | :46:16. | :46:30. | |
us who wish to leave I have to say, is... Lands that question. The | :46:31. | :46:38. | |
alternative is not being a member. It may come to a great shock as the | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
Europeans in our midst that most of the world including the | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
fastest-growing trees growing in the world are not in the European Union. | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
-- growing countries. Responsibility for the conduct of economics in this | :46:55. | :47:00. | |
country, I have little doubt that we would prosper more if we were not a | :47:01. | :47:06. | |
member of the European Union. As for the content of the white paper, | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
there is one significant omission, it fails to mention the single most | :47:11. | :47:17. | |
important feature of the agreement of the 19th of February, namely the | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
declaration that, I quote, member states not participating in the | :47:23. | :47:28. | |
deepening of the economic monetary union will not create obstacles to | :47:29. | :47:31. | |
but facilitate such further deepening. And quote. Thus at a | :47:32. | :47:40. | |
stroke we have given our ability to veto further transfers of powers | :47:41. | :47:43. | |
from the United Kingdom to the European Union should we remain, | :47:44. | :47:50. | |
that they believe are necessary for further economic integration. Not so | :47:51. | :48:00. | |
much white paper as white flag. Moreover it undermines the claim on | :48:01. | :48:03. | |
the paper that more powers cannot be transferred from the United Kingdom | :48:04. | :48:06. | |
to the European Union without the United Kingdom agreeing. What then | :48:07. | :48:12. | |
of the exit mechanism in the welcome event of the referendum being one | :48:13. | :48:18. | |
with levers. There is much talk of having to invoke article 50 of the | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
Lisbon Treaty and the process taking up to ten years or more. This is | :48:24. | :48:34. | |
bolder-. -- this is balderdash. The 1975 referendum would have been a | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
fraud since the Lisbon Treaty dates back to 2007. Article 50 refers to | :48:39. | :48:47. | |
the EU putt recommended procedure for negotiating the relationship of | :48:48. | :48:50. | |
a member that has left with its surviving European Union. The Prime | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
Minister is frequently pointed out that Parliament is sovereign and we | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
can at any time leave the European Union by repealing the 1972 European | :49:03. | :49:09. | |
communities act. Which makes UK law subordinate. Indeed article 50 of | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
the Lisbon Treaty itself state that and I quote, any member state | :49:15. | :49:21. | |
deciding the withdrawal in accordance with its own | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
constitutional requirements". And in the case of the United Kingdom, our | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
only one is the repeal of the 1972 act. My Lords, among the many | :49:32. | :49:41. | |
grossly misleading scare -- misleading scare stories peddled by | :49:42. | :49:44. | |
the Government whose only argument is project fear, nothing positive at | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
all, is that we'll have two renegotiate all of our trade | :49:50. | :49:52. | |
agreements with countries outside of the European Union. The plain truth | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
is that we have nothing to fear but fear itself. The great bulk of our | :49:58. | :50:03. | |
trade with the rest of the world have been regulated by the WTO and | :50:04. | :50:13. | |
would remain wholly unchanged. As for the Aga and that you need to be | :50:14. | :50:23. | |
a member that 60% of British exports, 60% are covered by the free | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
trade agreement. Ashman as for the agreement. 60% are on our behalf. | :50:28. | :50:36. | |
The great majority of the agreements we are part two with the WTO were | :50:37. | :50:44. | |
concluded before 95 when at that time when the European union was not | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
even a member of the WTO all gats. As for the argument that you need to | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
be a member of the so-called single market to trade is nonsense. Indeed | :50:55. | :51:00. | |
exports into the single market from countries outside have for many | :51:01. | :51:06. | |
years not been growing faster than UK exports. After all, the weighted | :51:07. | :51:15. | |
average of the European Union's growth is any 3.6%. The prospect of | :51:16. | :51:21. | |
not being able to secure a far better trade agreement the little | :51:22. | :51:23. | |
Switzerland is Switzerland. That is its nature. The uncertainty | :51:24. | :51:37. | |
surrounding Britain's future, should roost site to stay -- should we | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
decide to stay is far more important than getting freedom. The route to | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
belittle freedom is what it is all about, that is the purpose. That | :51:48. | :51:53. | |
will continue. Even though we have secured lockdown for political | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
union, we remain shackled to it, a sort of colonial status. This | :51:59. | :52:04. | |
referendum is not primarily about economic. It is about whether we in | :52:05. | :52:11. | |
this country decide to take control of our affairs whether we decide to | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
be a self-governing democracy and one with a global European | :52:17. | :52:26. | |
perspective. Could I press him to spell out what the alternative is, | :52:27. | :52:32. | |
he is the chairman of one of the leading organisations and always | :52:33. | :52:38. | |
raises the laugh, we have heard the privilege of hearing it but what | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
does that freedom or out consist of? What deal would he conclude? | :52:43. | :52:50. | |
Contrary to the protestations, Britain has benefited from lower | :52:51. | :52:51. | |
prices. | :52:52. | :52:53. |