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My Lords, I will now repeat a statement made by my right | :00:00. | :00:11. | |
honourable friend, the Secretary of State for Exiting the European | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
Union. With permission Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement about | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
the publication of a White Paper on the Great Bill. Yesterday we took | :00:21. | :00:26. | |
the historic step of notifying the European Council of the government | :00:27. | :00:27. | |
decision to invoke Article 50. The decision to invoke Article 50. The | :00:28. | :00:35. | |
United Kingdom is leaving the EU. That notification marks the | :00:36. | :00:37. | |
beginning of our two-year negotiation period with the EU. And | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
it reflects the result of last year's instruction from the people | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
of the United Kingdom. As the Prime Minister said yesterday, it is | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
fierce determination to get the right deal for every single person. | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
Now the time to come together, to ensure that the UK as a whole is | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
prepared for the challenges and opportunities presented by our exit | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
from the EU. We have been clear that we want a smooth and orderly exit, | :01:05. | :01:10. | |
and the Great Repeal Bill is integral to that approach. It will | :01:11. | :01:18. | |
provide clarity, and certainty, for businesses, workers and consumers | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
across the UK on the day we leave the EU. It will mean that as we exit | :01:22. | :01:29. | |
the EU and seek a new deep and special partnership with the EU, we | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
will be doing so from a position where we have the same standards and | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
rules. But it will also ensure we deliver on our promise to end the | :01:39. | :01:45. | |
supremacy of EU law in the UK as we exit. Our laws will be made in | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
London, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast, and interpreted not by | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
judges in Luxembourg but by judges across the United Kingdom. Some have | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
been concerned that Parliament will not play enough of a role in shaping | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
the future of the country once we have left the EU. Today's White | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
Paper shows just how wrong that is. This publication makes clear there | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
will be a series of bills to debate and vote on. Both before and after | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
we leave, as well as many statutory instruments to consider. Let me turn | :02:19. | :02:25. | |
to the content of today's White Paper. Mr Speaker, the paper we have | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
published sets out the three principal elements of this Great | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
Repeal Bill. First, it will repeal the European Communities Act and | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
return power to the United Kingdom. Second, the bill will convert EU law | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
into UK law wherever practical and appropriate, allowing businesses to | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
continue to operate knowing the rules have not changed overnight, | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
and providing fairness to individuals whose rights and | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
obligations will not be subject to sudden change. And third, the bill | :02:57. | :03:03. | |
will create the necessary powers to correct the laws that do not operate | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
appropriately once we have left the EU, so that our legal system | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
continues to function correctly outside the EU. I will address each | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
of these elements internally for coming to the important issue of the | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
interaction of the bill with the devolution settlement is. Let me | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
begin with the European Communities Act. Repealing the ECA on the day we | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
leave the EU enables the return to this parliament of the sovereignty | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
we, to some degree, seeded in 1972, and ends the supremacy of EU law in | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
this country. It is entirely necessary to deliver on the result | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
of the referendum. But repealing the ECA alone is not enough. A simple | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
repeal would leave holes in our statute book. EU regulation that | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
applied directly in the UK would no longer have any effect, and many of | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
the domestic regulations we have made to implement EU regulations | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
would fall away. Therefore, to provide maximum possible legal | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
certainty, the Great Repeal Bill will convert EU law into domestic | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
law on the day we leave the EU. This means, for example, that the | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
workers' rights, environmental protection and consumer rights | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
enjoyed under EU law in the UK, will continue to be available in UK law | :04:24. | :04:31. | |
after we have left the EU. Once EU law has been converted into domestic | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
law, Parliament will be able to pass legislation to amend, repeal or | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
improve any piece of EU law it chooses, as will the default | :04:42. | :04:48. | |
legislatures -- devolved. However, further steps will be needed to | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
provide a smooth and orderly exit. This is because a large number of | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
laws, both existing domestic laws and those we convert into UK law, | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
will not work properly if we leave the EU without taking further | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
action. Some laws, for example, grand functions to EU institutions | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
with which the UK might no longer have a relationship. To overcome | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
this, the Great Repeal Bill will provide a power to correct the | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
statute book where necessary, to resolve the problems which will | :05:22. | :05:24. | |
occur as a consequence of leaving the EU. This will be done using | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
secondary legislation. The flexibility of which will help to | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
ensure that we have put in place the necessary corrections before the day | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
we leave the EU. I can confirm this power will be time limited. And | :05:39. | :05:46. | |
Parliament will need to be satisfied that the procedures in the bill for | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
making and approving the secondary legislation are appropriate. Given | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
the scale of the changes that will be necessary and the finite amount | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
of time available, there is a balance to be struck between the | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
importance of scrutiny and correcting the statute book in time. | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
As the Constitution committee in the other place recently put it, the | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
challenge Parliament will face is in balancing the need for speed and | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
thus government of discussion, with the need for proper parliamentary | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
control of the content of the UK statute book. Parliament of course | :06:21. | :06:27. | |
can and does regularly debate and vote on secondary legislation. We | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
are not considering some form of government executive orders, but | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
using a legislative process of long standing. I hope today's White Paper | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
and this statement can be the start of a discussion between Parliament | :06:43. | :06:45. | |
and government about how best to achieve this balance. Similar | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
corrections will be needed to the statute books of the three devolved | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
administrations. And so we propose the bill will also give ministers in | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
a devolved -- the devolved administrations the power to amend | :07:01. | :07:02. | |
devolved legislation to correct their law, in line with the way UK | :07:03. | :07:09. | |
ministers can correct UK law. Mr Speaker, let me turn to the ECJ EU | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
and its caselaw. I can confirm that the Great Repeal Bill will provide | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
no future role in the interpretation of our laws and the bill will not | :07:22. | :07:28. | |
oblige our courts to consider cases after we have left. However, for as | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
long as EU derived law remains on the UK statute book, it is essential | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
that there is a common understanding of what that law means. The | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
government believes that this is best achieved by providing for | :07:45. | :07:50. | |
continuity in how that law is interpreted, before and after exit | :07:51. | :07:57. | |
day. To maximise certainty, therefore, the bill will provide | :07:58. | :07:59. | |
that any question as to the meaning of EU law that has been converted | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
into UK law, will be determined in the UK courts by reference to the CJ | :08:06. | :08:12. | |
EU's caselaw as it exists on the day we leave the EU. Any other starting | :08:13. | :08:19. | |
point would be to change the law and create unnecessary uncertainty. This | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
approach maximises the uncertainty at the point of departure. But our | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
intention is not to fossilise the past decisions forever. As such, we | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
propose the bill will provide that historic caselaw be given the same | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
status as our courts, as decisions of our own Supreme Court. | :08:39. | :08:45. | |
The Supreme Court does not frequently depart from its own | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
decisions but does so from time to time. And we expect them to take a | :08:52. | :08:58. | |
sparing view from SJU case law but believe it is has the right to do | :08:59. | :09:05. | |
so. Of course, Parliament is free to endure the law and therefore | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
overturn case law where it decides to do so. | :09:11. | :09:19. | |
MR SPEAKER:, the charter of fundamental rights applies to Member | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
States when they act within the scope of EU law. This means that the | :09:24. | :09:30. | |
relevance is removed by the withdrawal of the EU, the UK's | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
leading role in protecting and advancing human rights will not | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
chance. The fact that the charter moves away will not mean that the | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
protection of rights in the UK suffers as a result. The charter of | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
fundamental rights was not designed to create new rights but to | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
catalogue rights recognised in EU law. Where cases have been decided | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
by reference to the rights that case law will be used to interpret the | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
underlying rights which will be preserved. I would like to turn to | :10:03. | :10:09. | |
devolution. The United Kingdom's domestic constitutional arrangements | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
evolved since the UK joined the European economic community in 1973. | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
The current devolution settlements were agreed after the UK joined and | :10:19. | :10:25. | |
reflect that context. Innas where the devolved administrations and | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
legislators have competence, agriculture, the environment and | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
somas of transport, this competence is exercised within the constraints | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
set up by EU law. The existence of common EU frameworks provided a | :10:40. | :10:45. | |
common UK framework in manias, safeguarding the functioning of the | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
UK internal market. As powers return from the EU, we have the opportunity | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
to determine the level best placed to take decisions on these issues, | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
ensuring power sits closer to the people of the United Kingdom than | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
ever before. It is the expectation of the Government that the outcome | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
of this process will be a significant increase in the decision | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
making power of each devolved administration but ensure that as we | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
leave the EU, no new barriers to living and doing business within our | :11:17. | :11:23. | |
own union are created. In somas, this will require common | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
UK frameworks. Decisions required about where a common framework is | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
needed and if it is, how it may be established. The devolved | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
administration acknowledge the importance of common UK frameworks. | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
We will work closely with the administrations to deliver an | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
approach that works for the whole of the United Kingdom and reflects the | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
needs and the individual circumstances of Scotland, Wales and | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
Northern Ireland. He let me conclude by stressing the importance of the | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
Great Repeal Bill, to help and ensure certainty and stability. To | :12:01. | :12:08. | |
ensure a smooth and orderly exit. To stand in good negotiations over | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
future relationships with the EU and deliver greater control to this | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
Parliament and wherever appropriate, the devolved administrations, this | :12:20. | :12:25. | |
is crucial in implementing the referendum in the national | :12:26. | :12:27. | |
interests. I hope that all sides work with that and work to achieve | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
the aims. I commend this statement to the house. | :12:32. | :12:38. | |
I thank the Lord minister for repeating the statement, introducing | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
threeas of scrutiny facing this House over the coming 18 months. The | :12:43. | :12:49. | |
other elements are the array of primary legislation, anywhere | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
between seven and 15 bill, covering agriculture, customs, and | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
immigrations and their associated SIs. And also the scrutiny of the | :12:58. | :13:07. | |
Government's negotiation with the E U20 07, culminating in a vote in | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
this House. Today's foreshadowed bill is in one way the easiest of | :13:12. | :13:18. | |
the task as it takes existing EU law to incorporate into domestic law. | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
However, we heard from the Secretary of State for International Trade | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
arguing that to restore Britain's competitiveness, we must begin by | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
deregulating the labour market, whilst the Foreign Secretary wants | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
to use the opportunity to axe needless regulations that have | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
acreated since Britain joined the EU. How do those comments chime with | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
the Prime Minister's introduction to the white paper and the Government's | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
long standing promise that the same rules and laws apply on the day | :13:51. | :13:56. | |
after exit, as on the day before? So will the noble Lord, the minister, | :13:57. | :13:59. | |
confirm that it is the Prime Minister who is the boss and that | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
despite the words of the others, there is no intention to repeal | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
those mad cap ideas within the repeal bill. | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
Despite its aim of simply converting existing rules into UK law, the bill | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
will be in the words of our delegated powers and regulatory | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
reform committee, holey exceptional pieces of primary legislation with | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
implications for the fundamental issue of the balance between the | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
executive and Parliament. We are pleased that the Secretary of State | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
confirmed, as the minister has done now, that the delegated powers | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
introduced by the bill are subject to time limits but a number of | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
concerns remain. Mar graph 321, the Government | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
believes that current statutory instrument procedures in this House | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
are sufficient for the task. -- paragraph 321. We have our doubts. | :14:57. | :15:03. | |
So will the noble Lord the minister, give serious consideration to the | :15:04. | :15:09. | |
following recommendations. That an ex-planetory memo is published | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
alongside each statutory instrument. That there is early consultation | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
with outside stake holders. The provision of a comprehensive | :15:19. | :15:24. | |
delegation powers memoranda for Parliament when the bill appears, | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
the provision of draft regulations so that scrutiny can commence before | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
the bill is enacted inview of the scale and the complexity of the | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
secondary legislation and give than the degree gaitory legislation is | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
unamendable, consideration of a strength and a scrutiny procedure to | :15:46. | :15:52. | |
ensure that there is some control over significant statetory | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
intriplets, including some triage of the various proposals. My lords, | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
everyone in the chamber know that our committees on this do the most | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
excellent of work it but it clear that an extra form of capacity is | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
needed to scrutinise the vast array of statutory instruments to come. My | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
Lords, many EU regulations are monitored and enforced by the | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
commissioner, the court of justice or another EU body. The question is | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
how the Government ensures that the new regulations, once domesticated | :16:30. | :16:32. | |
into UK law, will be monitored and enforced? There is really little | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
point in entrenching EU rights and pro texts if the Government does not | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
also ensure that they are enforceable. As converting EU Accie | :16:43. | :16:51. | |
into domestic law will have significant implications for the | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
devolution settlements as referred to, which were all premised on our | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
continued membership of the EU, can the noble Lord the minister, tell | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
the House about their plans for dealing with repatriation innas of | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
devolved competence, including London? In particular, can the noble | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
Lord the minister, provide assurance that the consultation will improve? | :17:15. | :17:20. | |
Just yesterday, the First Minister in Wales confirmed he had not seen | :17:21. | :17:27. | |
the Article 50 letter and not involved, invited to contribute to | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
its drafting and described that as unacceptable, an accumulation of a | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
deeply frustrating process in which the devolved administrations had | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
been persistently treated with a lack of respect and today again he | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
had to say: We are disappointed we were not given the opportunity to | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
contribute to its publication, the white paper, despite assurances that | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
we would be. Is this the level of co-operation that the Government | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
thinks is satisfactory? My Lords, although lacking in certain | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
respects, today's white paper provides some clarity. Labour has | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
insisted that our withdrawal from the EU must not lead to the | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
reduction of workplace rights, environment or consumer protections. | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
These must be retained with no qualifications, limitations or | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
sunset clause and the white paper seems, although I have not had time | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
to read all details but it does seem to accept this entirely and sets out | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
welcome examples but given the comments by the Foreign Secretary | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
and the interest trade secretaries that I mentioned and indeed the | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
former chairman of the Conservative Party, there are dangers ahead. If | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
we are to do our job properly, we will need the resources and the | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
structures to deal with the avalanche of secondary legislation | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
and a way of ensuring that the delegation powers are limited, used | :18:58. | :19:04. | |
only when vital and not misused. And that the House stands ready to do | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
what is needed but we will need more assurance before we can be sure that | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
the bill is fit for purpose. The Government's stressing the | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
importance of sovereignty. For us this means parliamentary | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
sovereignty, and not an unacceptable power grab by Government. We'll be | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
watching you. I also thank the noble Lord, the | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
minister, for the repeat of the statement. My Lords if the price of | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
pointing out when the Government's Brexit emperor lacks clothes is to | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
be labelled a well known pessimist it is a price I will pay. The most | :19:45. | :19:51. | |
obvious flash of nakedness is in the title of the great, it is not great | :19:52. | :19:58. | |
and repeals nothing it is the sneaky copy piece bill. Brexit does not | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
mean Brexit but a deep and a special relationship, we learned, so of | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
course, we are still complying are lots of EU law. Which is welcome in | :20:08. | :20:14. | |
avoiding the destructive off the cliff no deal breaksity that the | :20:15. | :20:17. | |
Prime Minister threatened weeks ago and I noted reap Peted in the white | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
pipe, although I thought it had been abandoned. But the deeper our | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
relationship with the EU is, the more flimsiness of the emperor's red | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
line garments become apparent it seems that the Government hopes | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
cinically, that as longs as it pulls from the EU institutions, the fact | :20:39. | :20:45. | |
that the UK will continue to comply with EU law can be sold as freedom | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
and regained control. But instead of taking back control, meaning as | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
Leave voters were Steveed into thinking as increased in | :20:56. | :20:58. | |
parliamentary sovereignty, Brexit does represent a shameless power | :20:59. | :21:05. | |
grab by the executive on a scale to make Henry te 8th blush. And doubts | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
on the Civil Service to cope. The statement says that the bill will | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
"create the necessary powers to correct the laws that don't operate | :21:15. | :21:23. | |
appropriately once we have left the EU" paragraph 121 promises no major | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
changes to policy, just enough to ensure that the law continues to | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
function properly. We will have to be watchful that wiggle room appears | :21:35. | :21:42. | |
to allow. And the alleged flex crypt and speed, so although Government | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
executive orders are apparently ruled out, true reassurance is in | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
short supply. I associate myself with the remarks made about the | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
resources in this House. Liberal Democrats will be insisting on full | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
parliamentary scrutiny, transparency, and due process, | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
including the involvement of the devolved administrations. Now the | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
statement and the white paper pledge to end the supremacy of EU law in | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
the United Kingdom, such that the laws we obey will not be interpreted | :22:17. | :22:23. | |
by the judges in Luxembourg, and this bears reputation: The Article | :22:24. | :22:29. | |
50 letter admits that UK trading in the EUU will have to abide by the EU | :22:30. | :22:36. | |
rule, while the UK takes no part in the institutions that shape the | :22:37. | :22:39. | |
laws, in other words, we are a rule taker, not a rule maker, hence the | :22:40. | :22:50. | |
claim of no future role for the SCU in the interpretation of Australia | :22:51. | :22:57. | |
laws is simply untrue. The SYEU will continue to play a large part in our | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
lives, true also of treaty rights. A few lines down from the ringing | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
assertion of ending the role of EU learn we learn that UK courts will | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
determine the converted law by reference to the case law. The | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
application of the charter of fundamental rights is therefore | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
shown up to be more apparent than real as the Luxembourg court has | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
taken account of it in many judgments and this is admitted a few | :23:28. | :23:34. | |
paragraphs later. So the assertion in paragraph 223 in the white paper, | :23:35. | :23:41. | |
that the withdrawal of the EU, is also incorrect. Can the minister | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
explain how our courts will keep up with not just historic but new EU | :23:48. | :23:55. | |
law and CJEU case law and the obscure references to common | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
frameworks but this must surely mean EU communes once? | :24:01. | :24:07. | |
How will the government deal with pressure from right-wing | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
conservatives, backed recently by the daily Telegraph, to promise a | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
bonfire of EU red tape to put Britain on a radically different | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
course? Is that what correction actually means? If so, when will the | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
government Talbot -- tell the British people that they voted to | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
diminish their rights, like food labelling or roaming charges. | :24:34. | :24:35. | |
Liberal Democrats will not support anything which we human rights, | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
environmental, workplace and consumer protection, which threatens | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
freedoms to study and work in the -- EU, research funding or security | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
cooperation. This reinforces the need that my party demands for the | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
British people to have the final say on the Brexit deal. And for that say | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
to be before the repeal bill is enacted. | :24:58. | :25:05. | |
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness and others for their contributions. | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
I would particularly like to thank noble Baroness Hayter for her | :25:10. | :25:12. | |
overarching view that we have provided at least some clarity as | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
regards the approach we are taking. I think we're providing a | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
considerable amount of clarity. To clarify the first point the noble | :25:21. | :25:26. | |
Baroness asked me, is the Prime Minister the boss? Yes, the Prime | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
Minister is the boss. And I better make that very clear. On a more | :25:31. | :25:38. | |
serious point, as regards the point that noble Baroness Hayter and noble | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
Baroness Ludford made about changes that might be made in years hence to | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
EU derived law when it is in UK law, that is for some time off because | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
for the simple reason we have to get this process through and done within | :25:53. | :25:58. | |
the time we have. Any changes to EU derived law, if they were to be | :25:59. | :26:04. | |
made, if they were to be made, or I should say, proposed, would | :26:05. | :26:07. | |
obviously need to be passed by this Parliament. That is not for now. As | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
this paper makes very clear, the task before us is to provide a | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
smooth and orderly exit on day one. And in so doing, just to pick up on | :26:19. | :26:24. | |
the point, I understand people's concerns about people's writes, we | :26:25. | :26:27. | |
are making it clear we are not intended to undermine or erode | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
people's writes as they are derived from the EU. Furthermore, as the | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
noble Baroness thinks this is a power grab, this is not a power | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
grab. We make it very clear about the balance we are striving to | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
achieve between the knees to get appropriate scrutiny from Parliament | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
dwelt at -- whilst at the same time having a fully functioning statute | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
book on the day we leave the EU. We set out a number of constraints. As | :26:54. | :27:00. | |
regards the constraints that might be taken. As I said in the | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
statement, we are committed to a time limit. The noble Baroness made | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
some interesting suggestions as regards other constraints that are | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
not in the White Paper as such. I would draw the Houses attention to | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
paragraph -- to the paragraph about the scope of the power considered, | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
we will consider the constraints placed upon the power to assess | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
whether similar constraints may be suitable for the new power. For | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
example, preventing the power from being used to make retrospective | :27:34. | :27:40. | |
position or impose taxation. There are a number of other suggestions. | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
She echoed the thoughts made in the wonderful report by this Houses --'s | :27:46. | :27:54. | |
constitutional committee. Consultation on draft. That will be | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
very important as we move to and landing those parts which relate to | :28:01. | :28:07. | |
the economy. That is something worth mulling over. Draft regulations. | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
Again... Strength and scrutiny procedure. On triage, these are all | :28:14. | :28:20. | |
faults. My door is open to have discussions on with any noble lord | :28:21. | :28:23. | |
who wishes to have such a discussion. I stress the point made | :28:24. | :28:29. | |
in the White Paper where it says this white Paper is the beginning of | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
a discussion between government and parliament as to the most pragmatic | :28:34. | :28:35. | |
and effective approach to take in this area. The noble Baroness makes | :28:36. | :28:43. | |
a very good point about the monitoring of EU regulations once | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
they are converted into EU law, where those EU regulations are today | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
enforced by EU regulators. This is a very good point. We're having | :28:54. | :28:56. | |
extensive discussions as to how this will work with UK regulators. And | :28:57. | :29:03. | |
furthermore, there needs to be consultation and discussion about | :29:04. | :29:05. | |
that process and how we bring them over. Baroness Ludford, moving on to | :29:06. | :29:13. | |
the interpretation of caselaw. I would simply say that we need to | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
have the certainty of the law which underpins a number of significant, | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
not simply legal cases, but also policy cases. I'm thinking in | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
particular of our VAT policy, which a large number of European court | :29:29. | :29:35. | |
shapes that. We are taking the approach we are taking as a result. | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
As regards consultation with the devolved assemblies and the point of | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
the noble Baroness made about that, yes indeed we will need to consult. | :29:46. | :29:51. | |
We're giving ministers their power to amend their legislation to ensure | :29:52. | :29:54. | |
it will be fit for purpose on day one. We are having regular meetings. | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
And we will continue to have regular meetings on that. Let me end by | :29:59. | :30:04. | |
saying that I am very, very keen to continue to consult with all members | :30:05. | :30:07. | |
of this House about the measures contained in the White Paper, as it | :30:08. | :30:10. | |
is absolutely critical we get this right. | :30:11. | :30:20. | |
I realise, my Lords, that this is mainly a convergent exercise, very | :30:21. | :30:26. | |
sensible and I greatly welcomed. -- conversion. When it comes to | :30:27. | :30:34. | |
approving secondary legislation, can we assume there is going to be some | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
degree of filtration and even removal there? Since many of these | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
vast number of regulations are not only wanted, and that may be a | :30:44. | :30:50. | |
matter for debate, but actually obsolete, and come from a predigital | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
age and an era of centralisation that is long past. It would really | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
be a waste of time and effort merely to place them there when they are | :31:01. | :31:08. | |
redundant. I think my noble friend is making a good point about the | :31:09. | :31:15. | |
potential for triage. Flagging to Parliament whether an SIA is of a | :31:16. | :31:22. | |
technical nature, of a more substantial policy nature, or a | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
policy issue. Therefore the level of scrutiny that is required. All I | :31:28. | :31:30. | |
would say at this stage is I am keen we get the balance right between | :31:31. | :31:35. | |
bringing your Lordships and the other place with us as we make these | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
changes and get the scrutiny right with the level of speed we need to | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
proceed with. I'm very interested in the point my noble friend makes, and | :31:42. | :31:50. | |
we will certainly look at that. Would he clarify the welcome | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
reference in the statement to a significant increase in the | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
decision-making power of each devolved administration? In respect | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
of the social chapter, for example, will Wales be able to have that | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
fully enforceable, even if it were to be amended at a UK level? And | :32:07. | :32:13. | |
would he also confirmed that any powers coming from Brussels to the | :32:14. | :32:16. | |
UK applying in devolved areas, will be able to be retained for example | :32:17. | :32:24. | |
at a Wales level rather than grabbed back by London? And will the | :32:25. | :32:30. | |
European Convention on Human Rights human rights still be applying in | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
the devolved areas? There is absolutely no plans for the | :32:36. | :32:38. | |
government to withdraw from the EC HR. On the first point, there is | :32:39. | :32:45. | |
again no intention to use this process in any shape or form to | :32:46. | :32:48. | |
erode the decision-making powers that currently exist for the | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
devolved administrations. As regards how power come back, that is clearly | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
a matter that we need to consult with very carefully to make sure it | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
works in all our interests. My Lords, my Lords, my Lords... I do | :33:02. | :33:11. | |
welcome the fact that the government has got rid of the Orwellian title, | :33:12. | :33:17. | |
the Great Repeal Bill, on the title page, although they did seem to | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
revert when they got inside. But would not have been to adopt the | :33:23. | :33:31. | |
byline of the Prince of Lampedusa's famous remark, when he gave the | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
definition of revolution, which was, everything must change so that | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
everything must stay the same? I think that's probably more the | :33:41. | :33:43. | |
title. I do think the daily Telegraph files -- Daily Telegraph's | :33:44. | :33:49. | |
regular tree bonfire may be short of dry kindling. -- regulatory. | :33:50. | :33:59. | |
Paragraphs 116 recognise that the provisions of this bill will be | :34:00. | :34:05. | |
operated in parallel with the Article 50 negotiations. But there | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
is no Parliamentary process for approving the changes that may have | :34:12. | :34:18. | |
been agreed in a deal with the European Union, other than the | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
binary choice when that deal is brought to Parliament. So is the | :34:24. | :34:26. | |
government really asking us to give it a blank check for all those | :34:27. | :34:33. | |
changes it negotiates, and to deny Parliament the scrutiny of the | :34:34. | :34:41. | |
details of them? And secondly, paragraph 120 of the White Paper | :34:42. | :34:44. | |
makes it even clearer than it was before, that the government is | :34:45. | :34:51. | |
anticipating no process of Parliamentary approval in the | :34:52. | :34:54. | |
context of the UK exiting without a deal. Surely this like Una has shown | :34:55. | :35:05. | |
even more clearly than it has before, that we have to have a | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
provision for approving or disapproving a decision to exit | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
without a deal? For fear of frustrating him, I'm not | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
going to repeat all the arguments as regards the second point the noble | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
Lord makes. All I would simply say as regards all these points is that | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
there will be ample opportunity, as I've said many times at this | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
dispatch box, for the Lordships and the other place to be scrutinising | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
how the negotiations are proceeding. And as we make it clear in here, | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
there will be a vote in both houses on the agreement at the end of the | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
process. And also, were there to be measures coming out of the | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
withdrawal treaty that needs to be fermented, again that would be a | :35:50. | :35:52. | |
chance for the parliament to scrutinise those. | :35:53. | :36:02. | |
The paper refers to the constitutional committee. Both | :36:03. | :36:05. | |
houses need a mechanism to do is decide whether enhanced scrutiny is | :36:06. | :36:08. | |
required for some of these intimates. Given that statutory | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
instruments can't be amended and may be wrong in part but not as a whole, | :36:14. | :36:16. | |
and that this House is reluctant to vote them down, surely we need that | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
kind of mechanism? A very valid point. I have read that | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
excellent report. It is a useful contribution to the debate. I'm not | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
going to start committing one way now on the precise point he makes. I | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
have had and I would like to thank those Lordships, I have had | :36:36. | :36:41. | |
conversations with them on this. I'm happy to meet his Lordship in | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
private. I'm not going to make a point now. | :36:47. | :36:55. | |
I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm to me that any | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
delegated powers to be included in the Great Repeal Bill... | :37:00. | :37:08. | |
The foreword to the White Paper stresses the importance of trying to | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
minimise uncertainty during the course of the negotiations. Would my | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
noble friend agree that amongst those most suffering from | :37:18. | :37:23. | |
uncertainty are UK citizens living elsewhere in the European Union, and | :37:24. | :37:26. | |
those from elsewhere in the European Union living in the United Kingdom? | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
Wendy Prime Minister approached this in Brussels she was told she must | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
wait until the negotiations have begun and Article 50 had been | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
implemented. Can my noble friend gave us an assurance that we will | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
now press ahead with resolving that matter at the earliest possible | :37:47. | :37:49. | |
moment? And should we not be absolutely clear we must avoid a | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
situation where nothing is agreed until everything is agreed? Because | :37:55. | :38:00. | |
that would perpetuate the uncertainty among people for two | :38:01. | :38:07. | |
years and perhaps more. My noble friend makes a very good point. As | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
regards the substance of it, I would draw attention to the second point | :38:12. | :38:14. | |
of the principles for discussion set out in the letter that my right | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
honourable friend, the Prime Minister, sent yesterday, which | :38:21. | :38:23. | |
repeated our absolute aim to strike an early agreement about the rights | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
of both EU citizens in this country and UK citizens across Europe. It is | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
absolutely our intention to do so. It is good news we can start that | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
process. And we have been very heartened by the fact that in | :38:36. | :38:38. | |
conversations with our European partners, they also share that | :38:39. | :38:39. | |
overriding intent. They will gain strength, and the | :38:40. | :38:55. | |
fact although he will be on his feet for hours on ends with the | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
collectionities of this and other bills, the advantage here is that | :39:00. | :39:07. | |
although the detail is objective, there is the reassurance that this | :39:08. | :39:12. | |
and all arm tearians, making and changing and amending the laws that | :39:13. | :39:15. | |
the people of this country expect this Parliament to perform. That's | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
the duty that in all of my experience as an MP they expect this | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
Parliament to be able to make the decisions on their behalf. So all of | :39:24. | :39:30. | |
us who are keen Parliamentarians and value the priceless authority that | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
we have got in either House, and mainly in the Commons, should bear | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
in mind, surely, that this is a holey desirable piece of | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
legislation. I'm delighted he sees it that way. | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
This is a complex challenge ahead and we are to proceed with simple | :39:49. | :39:55. | |
while being mindful of the complexity and mindful of a view | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
among some of you, that in the process of restoring sovereignty, we | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
don't give the Government excessive powers and we must get the balance | :40:05. | :40:11. | |
right. I am determined to do that. I am sure that the minister has well | :40:12. | :40:18. | |
in mind of problems with amending the step legislation of a | :40:19. | :40:26. | |
subordinate nature of this House. I urge him, based on my experience of | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
dealing with a more modest situation that arose when I was Lord Chief | :40:32. | :40:39. | |
Justice, and the Lord Chancellor's status transformed and we realised | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
that there were over 300 pieces of legislation, not taken into account, | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
can I suggest it is possible to include, whatever you will call the | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
bill, with great or otherwise, a provision to enable a statutory | :40:55. | :41:02. | |
instrument to be amended without affecting its validity. That will be | :41:03. | :41:08. | |
a greater comfort to those in this House with regard to what is | :41:09. | :41:16. | |
proposed. That makes an extremely interesting | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
point. I am sure that there will be other points he will mention to him | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
and I look forward to have discussions about this ahead. | :41:27. | :41:30. | |
. My Lords, I confess, a irresistible | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
urge to return to practice at the bar. This is a legal mind field but | :41:37. | :41:43. | |
May I ask this. When a relevant right of action arises between now | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
and the date of departure is it not the case that any such proceedings | :41:49. | :41:59. | |
that may follow or to be determined by European Union law and | :42:00. | :42:06. | |
justiceable, by the European Union of justice. | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
I am not sure of that point, I am sorry to say. The position as | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
regards case law is what I have set out: Until we leave the European | :42:16. | :42:23. | |
Union, obviously we are bound by the ECJ. But I am happy to discuss this. | :42:24. | :42:31. | |
As chairman of the delegation of powers committee, I am pleased that | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
the Government is taking on board many of the recommendations we have | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
made in tandem with the constitution committee, with which we are working | :42:41. | :42:44. | |
closely. The most important one from our point of view is the sunset | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
clause, the time limiting one which deals with many of the worries that | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
people have about giving the Government extensive powers. Can I | :42:55. | :43:00. | |
take it further, we will have other primary legislation dealing with | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
other matters where we wish to have a different approach and a policy. | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
My guess is that there will be considerable delegated powers there. | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
Could I ask the Government not to take too much for granted there. Our | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
committee will be having bady eyes on it all. | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
I am delighted that the bady eye of my noble friend will continue to | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
purr say all that comes from Government and so it should. I would | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
like to thank her and the words of their committee for their work. We | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
will confirm a sunset clause in this piece of legislation. My noble | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
friend is right about the other pieces of legislation to follow. | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
Indeed, I will not say here and now as to the extent of the delegated | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
powers that they might have but obviously we are mindful of the | :43:53. | :43:57. | |
needs to ensure that the powers are proportionate also. | :43:58. | :44:06. | |
The policy to leave the single market, a policy with devastating | :44:07. | :44:13. | |
effects to the British economy. And I hope that he has read the report | :44:14. | :44:20. | |
on engineering manufactures' federation on the subject. But the | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
Government defender policy, the reason for it, is that any other | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
policy would be incompatible with the desire to restrict EU | :44:31. | :44:37. | |
immigration but now that there will be no meaningful reduction for EU | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
immigration, would it be elementary to examine the policy. The cost of | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
leaving the single market is the same but the gain or return that the | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
Government were hoping for from this policy is less than anticipated and | :44:52. | :44:58. | |
possibly nonexistent. So is it not common sense to review the policy. | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
Apart from the difficulty it would make for Ireland, to create a new | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
frontier across the island of Ireland which could be avoided if we | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
remain in the single market. I respect the passion that you | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
speak. I have little to expand on the situation, other than than what | :45:17. | :45:22. | |
I have said many times before. We view the need to reflect the single | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
market, after then struction as delivered on the 23rd of June, that | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
we believe we need to take control over our boarders and see it as an | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
instruction received and part of the need to leave the EU. As regards to | :45:38. | :45:43. | |
how, the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister have both said on | :45:44. | :45:49. | |
many occasions we need to do so in a sensible way, mindful and sensitive | :45:50. | :45:52. | |
to the needs of the economy. I have little to add to that. | :45:53. | :45:59. | |
You are well known for the optimism, can you reassure that the House, | :46:00. | :46:02. | |
that the legislation of this vast bill will be completed by the end of | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
the next parliamentary session, starting on the 17th of May, more or | :46:08. | :46:13. | |
less a year only to ensure that the legislation gets through and | :46:14. | :46:23. | |
reassure us that as the worded structure is, that the final vote of | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
the Parliament, the sovereign Parliament, especially the House of | :46:29. | :46:30. | |
Commons, will be the final decision on the matter? Well, my lords, the | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
people have said that they wish to leave the European Union, that is | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
what we are doing. As regards the timetable for the bill, and the | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
noble Lord makes a good point, we have obviously a timetable that is | :46:46. | :46:51. | |
reflecting the processes set out in the Article 50 process itself. We | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
fully intend to see this bill on the statute book as soon as possible so | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
that we can start to use the powers and to ensure that the statute book | :47:01. | :47:06. | |
is fit for purpose on the day that we leave the European Union. | :47:07. | :47:09. | |
. In connection with the challenge set | :47:10. | :47:19. | |
out... If I may say so, I understand that the noble lady does not wish to | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
proceed. In connection with the challenge, | :47:24. | :47:30. | |
set out in the white paper, ensuring parliamentary scrutiny for the | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
legislation translated into the UK law, could I ask if he might | :47:35. | :47:43. | |
consider the precedent set by the tax law Vivite committee some years | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
ago, a Joint Committe from both Houses set up in similar | :47:48. | :47:52. | |
circumstances where the purpose was simply to rep micate laws without | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
changing them. It had the advantage that laws could be published in | :47:57. | :48:02. | |
draft, others could look at them and the Joint Committe of both Houses | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
could scrutinise and ensure as the remit was set that the laws were | :48:08. | :48:14. | |
translated without changing meaning that could be an effective way of | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
dealing with the volume of the legislation that is set. | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
I will look at the suggestion and see what is practical and what works | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
best obviously in consultation with the appropriate committees of the | :48:29. | :48:35. | |
House. My Lords have I been encouraged by | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
the minister's response, on the front bench, about the way his door | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
is open for the recommendations of the constitution committee as have | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
been marshalled around the House, he says and the white paper wants to | :48:50. | :48:55. | |
make it clear between scrutiny and speed but would he assure the House | :48:56. | :49:01. | |
when it comes to finding the balance, the balance must on on | :49:02. | :49:05. | |
scrutiny. And in particular will he look closely at the provision of | :49:06. | :49:09. | |
draft regulations, because one of the problems that has been said in | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
this House, in scrutinising the process in recent years as been our | :49:15. | :49:21. | |
inability to comment on the impact of the regulations as we have had no | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
draft regulation consideration. And so much is done by secondary | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
legislation, on a profound and not a technical nature, we will need the | :49:33. | :49:35. | |
draft rebelling layingses in order to do our job properly. | :49:36. | :49:41. | |
Thank you for that contribution. I take heed of what she is saying. I | :49:42. | :49:49. | |
think it comes back to the points rose by the gentlemen about how we | :49:50. | :49:54. | |
can in some shape or form ensure there is reflection of the of the | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
keg call nature or otherwise of the piece of SI and ensuring it is | :49:59. | :50:04. | |
presented in a timely manner. I hear what the noble Baroness is saying | :50:05. | :50:10. | |
and reflect on that. Lord camble, after hearing, can the | :50:11. | :50:15. | |
minister confirm my reading of the white paper, that obligations occur | :50:16. | :50:21. | |
under pre-exit European law, including obligations by the | :50:22. | :50:28. | |
government of this country, will be justiceable before the exit? EU law | :50:29. | :50:33. | |
will be preserved as it stands on the day of exit and that the UK | :50:34. | :50:38. | |
courts will be observing from then on. | :50:39. | :50:58. | |
Most people think that Government makes law, and majority of | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
legislation does come from ministers. But not all. MPs and | :51:03. | :51:10. | |
peers have the chance to bring in their own ideas through the private | :51:11. | :51:15. | |
members' bills. In the House of Commons there are a couple of ways | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
for this to be done. But the ones that succeed emerge through a ballot | :51:20. | :51:22. | |
held here at the start of every session of Parliament. | :51:23. | :51:28. | |
It's not a very hi-tech system, any MP who wants to bring in a bill puts | :51:29. | :51:31. | |
their name | :51:32. | :51:32. |