Browse content similar to 27/04/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Could the ministers say, is this a particularly complex area, is this | :00:28. | :00:37. | |
why legislation did not come forward in 2016? Is it proving more | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
difficult or is there some other reason why nothing was done within | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
the timescale which as far as I know the Government originally suggested | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
they would do so? There were various vehicles that the Government | :00:50. | :00:55. | |
explored, the opportunity for a sponsored private member 's' bill | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
and as I have said before without pre-empting what may have happened | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
or will happen in the coming months, I think it is important to recognise | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
that there were opportunities, certain legislative vehicles which | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
were in the current timetable which could have been used as an | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
opportunity to legislate in this respect. What does remain the case | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
is that I have given a personal commitment to the current | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
Government, and it is an important area to legislate in and we will | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
continue to do so at the earliest opportunity if indeed it is a | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
Conservative Government re-elected on the 8th of June. I endorse every | :01:28. | :01:36. | |
single word that the noble Baroness made there. Whatever Government is | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
elected in a few weeks' time, it should be top of the agenda to deal | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
with for the new travel secretary. I am sure those who aspire to hold | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
that position had taken note of the noble Lord's comments. Can he advise | :01:50. | :01:58. | |
us if the Government plans to make any economic assessment of the | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
imposition of bicycle lanes on London businesses, in particular, | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
small businesses mobile tradesmen such as stonemasons who have | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
effectively had to stop serving London businesses? As my noble | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
friend is aware, the issue of cycle lanes is primarily a responsible at | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
of London. I know there have been views expressed in this House and | :02:23. | :02:24. | |
house and elsewhere, and I'm sure those will be taken into account if | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
reviews are carried on of cycle lanes and their operation in London. | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
Can he assure us that pledges made to legislate on this matter will not | :02:37. | :02:38. | |
become a manifesto commitment? LAUGHTER | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
Again, I'm not going to prejudge the commitments within a manifesto. I | :02:46. | :02:47. | |
think I have made it as clear as I can at this juncture of what the | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
intention was of the current Government, what my personal view is | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
in this respect as someone who oversees legislation and indeed the | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
operation and coordination of such activity in London with the Mayor of | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
London and whatever Government I -- I am sure will continue to work with | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
the Mayor of London to regulate this industry in the years to come. The | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
confusion and despair seen as a result of this makes one think of | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
meat is. Of course, there was a mutiny 228 years ago on the Bounty. | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
228 years ago tomorrow. The Navy sent out ships to find the | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
mutineers. Today we would find difficulty doing that, and with that | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
have to be peddled as well to get there? I would like the noble Lord | :03:33. | :03:41. | |
to agree that we need more ships. Pedalling and votes, I think that is | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
something perhaps we have done in Hyde Park and elsewhere, but my day | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
would not be complete had I not received a history lesson from the | :03:50. | :03:52. | |
noble Lord and as ever I greatly appreciate that. | :03:53. | :03:55. | |
LAUGHTER I beg leave to ask the question. Can | :03:56. | :04:03. | |
I draw the House's attention to my entry on the register of interests? | :04:04. | :04:10. | |
The Government is committed to making patient and care records | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
digital, real-time and interoperable by 2020. Ahead of that, summary care | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
records which provide essential information about a patient such as | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
their medication, allergies and adverse reactions, are now available | :04:23. | :04:25. | |
in many parts of the country in key areas of the NHS such as ambulances | :04:26. | :04:32. | |
and A services. Health professionals can view these with | :04:33. | :04:40. | |
patient consent. Thank you. I am rather concerned that the data | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
guardians report, the third report, that was out last year, does not | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
fully address the issue as to who that electronic patient data belongs | :04:50. | :04:57. | |
to. Does it belong to the GPs, to NHS England, took NHS digital? And | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
this is particularly important because GPs now, some GPs, are | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
moving towards only localised electronic patient sharing, which | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
will in my view happen -- have an adverse effect on the efficiency of | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
the NHS, so can my noble friend the minister assure the House and myself | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
that electronic patient data records will be made nationally and that it | :05:21. | :05:27. | |
is the patient and the patient's choice as to who has access to those | :05:28. | :05:33. | |
records? My noble friend makes an important point about the use of | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
data and there is a balance to be struck. The first point to be made | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
about the use of data is that patients need to be part of any | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
decision about the sharing of data. In 2012, the NHS Future Forum | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
rubbished an independent report on this issue and used the phrase, no | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
decision about me without me, to describe the role of patients. Of | :05:56. | :05:58. | |
course, there is a deed to share data. It needs to be shared among | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
clinicians, particularly when they are treating a patient themselves. | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
There can be wider concerns, for example, a public health pandemic or | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
some such other incident where it needs to be shared widely but that | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
can only be done with a patient being informed and offering their | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
consent. Isn't there a problem here is that if all the focus is at | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
national level, that takes usually a very long time and inhibits local | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
progress? Wouldn't he agree that one of the great challenges is actually | :06:32. | :06:34. | |
being able to share information between the health service and | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
social care, if integrated care, particularly for older people, who | :06:40. | :06:42. | |
are discharged from hospital, is to be delivered? I wonder if he could | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
say if any progress is being made around what is clearly a challenging | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
area of getting full integration and local level. | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
The truth is there is patchy use of data within the health service and | :06:57. | :07:03. | |
practically all GPs not offer a laconic patient records, something | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
like 9 million people have registered to make appointments | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
online -- electronic patient records. But it is not at the same | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
level with trusts and there is the paper usage and the intention has | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
been to get to 2020 with a paperless NHS which means you would have, with | :07:22. | :07:28. | |
patient consent, the ability to share data around the patient | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
pathway in any part of the health service. Given the continued | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
revelations of data security breaches along with the absence of | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
response from last year's report from Dame Fiona Caldicot, how is the | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
government in to avoid a repeat of the fiasco several years ago over | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
care data and does he agree with me that it is vitally important that | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
patients are given confidence of the security of their data so that they | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
will not withdraw from allowing their data to be used for vital | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
medical research? The noble lady is quite right, the national data guide | :08:06. | :08:13. | |
produced a report last summer and has been the intention to reply to | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
that report and purdah has had an inevitable impact on it | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
unfortunately but the points she made in that about the simplified | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
process for opting out and also being clear there are vital users | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
that suitably anonymised data which can be made which benefit patients | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
directly, particularly through clinical medical research, and | :08:36. | :08:37. | |
making sure they know about that so they can choose to have their data | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
shared, it is encouraging that only around 2% of people of all patients | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
have opted to have their summary care records not being shared so it | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
suggests that went explained properly and with suitable | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
safeguards, people are happy to share their data. | :08:54. | :09:00. | |
He will have studied the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee | :09:01. | :09:07. | |
report, NHS treatment of overseas patients, it is chaired by the | :09:08. | :09:15. | |
Labour Party at present, which has identified a leakage of up to ?2 | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
billion a year in the treatment of patients who are either not entitled | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
to NHS treatment free in Britain or whose treatment should be reimbursed | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
by the countries from which they come. The target the government has | :09:32. | :09:40. | |
for this leakage is only 500 million a year. We undertake that in the | :09:41. | :09:42. | |
event of the government being successful in the election, that the | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
government will make a real effort to stem this leakage which is dilute | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
Inc the impact of the health service on the British people? -- by | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
. What I can tell my noble friend about is the work the government has | :09:57. | :10:05. | |
been doing on this issue which is to make sure that I identity checks for | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
overseas patients in hospitals to ensure that those people who are not | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
entitled to free care either through reciprocal arrangement or other | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
means do pay for the care provided for them whilst making sure that | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
anybody who is in need of urgent care does not have that care not | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
given to them, even if they have to then pay later. Would the Minister | :10:29. | :10:36. | |
made clear to the house that there are four health services in the UK, | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
not one? And what negotiations are taking place with his colleagues, it | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
is equivalent colleagues in the other administrations in the UK to | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
ensure that there is one common computer system across the whole of | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
the UK? Because electronic patient records depend upon their being one | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
computer system and not a variety across the whole country. The noble | :11:05. | :11:11. | |
Lord is quite right that the UK Government speaks only for the | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
English health system. There is a different here between having single | :11:15. | :11:22. | |
ICT systems, we've been down that road with billions wasted, rather | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
than having systems that can speak to one another and having a code of | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
usage around data security robustness that will provide for | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
people, particularly in border areas, to make sure there is the | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
kind of ongoing access to information that I believe he is | :11:41. | :11:47. | |
talking about. My Lords, while of course patient confidentiality must | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
be respected always, in the recent next steps in the five-year forward | :11:52. | :11:58. | |
view of the NHS there was a very concerning item looking at urgent | :11:59. | :12:06. | |
treatment centres. I find it worrying that personalised care | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
plans for patients in mental health crisis or at the end of life would | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
only be available in 40% of emergency care settings, assuming | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
that the target of the report is met. If the government prepared to | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
look at these figures? And considered them carefully? I think | :12:24. | :12:30. | |
the picture that the noble lady paint is the one where we are | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
starting from a position of not a great amount of sharing, | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
particularly outside primary health care, and that is what the | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
government has been trying to address, the primary route of doing | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
that has been through the global digital exemplars which are enabling | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
data cherry with the appropriate safeguards in acute trusts and | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
mental health trusts and the intention is to increase that by the | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
time. I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the | :12:59. | :13:05. | |
order paper. My lord, no such discussions have taken place, it is | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
the role of the local authorities to manage their networks efficiently | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
and determine their own policies for balancing the needs of their | :13:14. | :13:16. | |
communities but local authorities are required to have due regard to | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
the need to eliminate discrimination, advanced equality of | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
opportunity and foster good relations under section 149, | :13:24. | :13:29. | |
subsection one of the equality act 2010. I thank my noble friend for | :13:30. | :13:39. | |
his answer. Exactly a month ago I mentioned the problems I was having | :13:40. | :13:47. | |
with partying in Lambeth and since then the target has been wrecked in | :13:48. | :13:54. | |
the disabled bay where I live. Sometimes for three weeks in a row | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
and always with a blue badge on display has been moved. Clearly | :14:00. | :14:09. | |
somewhat at Lambeth Council is reading Hansard because the young | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
man I saw who walked away from the car in question without any apparent | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
disability has clearly been tipped off by someone in the council not to | :14:21. | :14:28. | |
park in the disabled by. Blue badge misuse is a serious offence yet | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
Lambeth says that in this case there is the evidence. Even though I have | :14:34. | :14:40. | |
been obliged that the blue badge in question was issued by Lambeth not | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
to a young man but to a 59-year-old woman. May I ask my noble friend the | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
Minister on behalf of all those disabled people who genuinely rely | :14:54. | :15:00. | |
on their blue badge and who do not have the privilege of standing up | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
and asking a question in your Lordships house, may I ask that he | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
urges all local authorities to prioritise tackling blue badge fraud | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
including when it involves their own staff? I think my noble friend and | :15:17. | :15:27. | |
first of all, I'm sure all Lordships are indeed very pleased to learn | :15:28. | :15:30. | |
that Camden Council are following our proceedings very closely. | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
Lambeth, I apologise, I'm sure Camden are as well! The issue which | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
he raced specifically about Lambeth and it is a serious one, I think the | :15:43. | :15:49. | |
abuse of blue badges in any place is something that is taken very | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
seriously and enforcement, while it is a matter for local authorities, | :15:53. | :15:59. | |
it is a criminal offence to park and misuse a blue badge. And offenders | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
may be prosecuted and fined up to ?1000. I would also say that in 2013 | :16:04. | :16:10. | |
the Department for Transport also introduced new legislation to enable | :16:11. | :16:13. | |
on strict civil enforcement officers to seek misused badges, when | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
previously only the police could do this. The point about sharing of | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
good practice, I understand there are a series of road shows in which | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
the department is involved with local authority is intended | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
effective to do that, sharing best practice and to end this abuse. The | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
powers of local authorities are worth clarifying a few years ago in | :16:35. | :16:41. | |
a bill I had the honour of taking to your Lordships house. I just wonder | :16:42. | :16:48. | |
whether it is bearing fruit. Thus the noble lord have any figures to | :16:49. | :16:57. | |
say about this? The noble lady is right to raise, the actual numbers | :16:58. | :17:04. | |
in terms of specific prosecutions is still low income person to the | :17:05. | :17:07. | |
reports received partly based on this need to produce evidence but as | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
somebody involved in local government for ten years and who had | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
responsibility at local level for this, part of it is education. A lot | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
of people sometimes park inadvertently and think it is OK for | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
a few minutes. The more serious issue is a blatant abuse of those | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
spaces by blue badge holders and I think that is an area where there | :17:28. | :17:30. | |
needs to be great education and I believe that the road shows which | :17:31. | :17:33. | |
are sharing best practice will help to address the issue of enforcement | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
more effectively. Another friend advise the house how often checks | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
are made of the abuse of blue badges? Blue badges and disabled | :17:44. | :17:56. | |
parking bays are assessed as part of any traffic enforcement which takes | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
place in the local authority so whilst there are certainly to my | :18:01. | :18:03. | |
knowledge not any specific initiatives undertaken to check on | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
this as part of the general enforcement of traffic management | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
ruled at a local level they are conducted readily in each local | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
area. I refer to the response ability of local authorities to | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
enforce the blue but scheme but is there not a difficulty is blue | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
badges issued by one local authorities are used incorrectly in | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
another local authority? Don't we have to have that enforcement | :18:30. | :18:31. | |
procedures to make sure they are not abused? -- better enforcement | :18:32. | :18:38. | |
procedures. I agree that this is a vital point and that is what I | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
believe the issue of how we work across the board and sharing good | :18:42. | :18:44. | |
practice will address part of the issues. I do again enforce the point | :18:45. | :18:52. | |
that part of this is about education and information and dissemination | :18:53. | :18:55. | |
about this and other those involved in traffic enforcement should know | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
the specific rules in ensuring that effective enforcement can be carried | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
out. My Lords, I wonder if I could invite the Minister to extend his | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
comments to another aspect that affect people with disabilities of | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
all kinds which is about parking on pavements or obstructing pavements. | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
This has become an increasing problem for people with mobility | :19:19. | :19:21. | |
problems of one kind or another and I wonder if when looking at this | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
problem he could also bear in mind the need to keep pavements clear for | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
people? Again, the noble Lord raises an important point and outside | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
London and indeed 13 boroughs in London I know pavement parking is | :19:38. | :19:43. | |
permitted and it causes a big issue in terms of access not just dare I | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
say for the disabled, as someone who still has a reasonably young | :19:49. | :19:51. | |
children, one in a pushchair, for young families as well try to get | :19:52. | :19:54. | |
through and he makes a valid suggestion and we will ensure that | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
is part of the discussion. My Lords, I beg leave to ask the question | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
standing in my name and I should mention that I co-chaired the | :20:06. | :20:08. | |
all-party parliament group on North Korea. My Lords, we have made clear | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
that North Korea must stop its destabilising behaviour. It nuclear | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
and ballistic missile programmes are a violation of multiple United | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
Nations Security Council resolutions and a threat to regional and | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
international security. We fully support action at the United Nations | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
Security Council to counter this threat and maintain pressure on the | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
regime put up the Foreign Secretary will shortly be discussing North | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
Korea's illegal activity at the UN Security Council. Yesterday's | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
presidential invitation to the White House of all 100 members of the | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
United States Senate for a briefing on the unfolding and dangerous | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
crisis on the Korean peninsula underscores its gravity but as does | :20:56. | :20:58. | |
the recollection that the last Korean War cost nearly 3 million | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
lives including those of 1000 British servicemen. With one quarter | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
of North Korea's DVP used on armaments and over a million men | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
under arms, how are we use our own present Pyongyang, Beijing and at | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
the Security Council to engage China and to avert North Korea's present | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
and long-term threat and to forestall a catastrophic outcome | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
closer to home, why wasn't the North Korea national insurance Corporation | :21:31. | :21:39. | |
not able to use London to generate over ?130 million to support both | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
the regime and its nuclear weapons programme? | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
Turning to the specific before I answer the more general. With | :21:47. | :21:56. | |
regards to the Korea wrote national insurance company, the EU designated | :21:57. | :22:03. | |
the London office on April the 28th 2016 and since that date, the UK has | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
taken appropriate actions to sanction the firm and has absolutely | :22:09. | :22:14. | |
followed that through. We issued a white paper on sanctions just last | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
week as we take it so seriously. We continue to work not only through | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
our critical engagement with the North Korean Government in Pyongyang | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
through our embassy there, but also at the United Nations, because it is | :22:31. | :22:33. | |
only by work amongst the United Nations Security Council, operating | :22:34. | :22:39. | |
with China asserting an influence, that they can be any change to | :22:40. | :22:46. | |
Korean behaviour. Can I reinforce the point that the absolute key to | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
this incredibly dangerous situation is the full engagement and support | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
of the Chinese Government and the sharing of their concerns with our | :22:57. | :22:59. | |
concerns and those of the rest of the world? And is it not possible | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
that HMG may be able to play a particularly useful intermediary | :23:05. | :23:10. | |
role in this area? As always, he makes an important point, and I can | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
give an assurance that the Foreign Secretary is meeting the Chinese | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
representatives when he travels later this day to New York, and | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
already has had very frequent discussions with China. It is | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
notable that the whole of the United Nations Security Council agreed that | :23:29. | :23:35. | |
there should be sanctions exerted on North Korea, including China, and | :23:36. | :23:41. | |
China has shown good faith in that, in its sanctions. My lords. My | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
lords. With brief questions we can hear | :23:47. | :24:04. | |
from the Liberal Democrats and then the Labour benches. What is the | :24:05. | :24:07. | |
response of Her Majesty's Government to the opinion expressed today by | :24:08. | :24:14. | |
the member of the administration of George W Bush, and is no shrinking | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
violet in these matters, that the solution to the crisis with North | :24:19. | :24:20. | |
Korea will not rest in military action, not least because of the | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
dangers that would present to the citizens of South Korea? My right | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has made it clear that he | :24:31. | :24:36. | |
sees military action as being undesirable. We have not, with our | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
allies in America, take an offensive action. It is North Korea that has | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
been offensive in its actions. Clearly, the position of our on the | :24:49. | :24:55. | |
border does mean that any military action would be an absolutely | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
disastrous. That is why we are all with allies in the United Nations | :25:01. | :25:07. | |
working together to ensure there is a stronger will, particularly by | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
China, to exert its interest on North Korea to avoid an escalation | :25:11. | :25:17. | |
of what we have seen over the last few weeks. Given the uncertainty | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
about North Korea, not least after the discussions by the American | :25:23. | :25:25. | |
President yesterday with the Senate, if there is the possibility of | :25:26. | :25:28. | |
military engagement by the United States against North Korea, would | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
there be a situation similar to what the Foreign Secretary suggested this | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
morning in relation to Syria, which would engage British troops, and if | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
that is the case, what attempts will be made to consult Parliament given | :25:42. | :25:49. | |
that the elected house will cease to exist in very few Alice' time? It is | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
a straightforward fact that the United States has made it clear that | :25:54. | :25:56. | |
they are not seeking military action. What they are installing but | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
that is a defensive missile system, and working with allies, South | :26:03. | :26:10. | |
Korea, in the area. What came across very strongly yesterday from the | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
announcement by the secretaries of State in America is that they are | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
seeking a peaceful resolution. They made back clear, they made it clear | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
that what they want to do is bring North Korea to its senses not to its | :26:24. | :26:33. | |
knees. I welcome the response in terms of the Security Council, but | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
will she reassure us that the Foreign Secretary will be in | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
communication when he is in New York with his counterpart in the United | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
States, to ensure that these two great allies act in concert to | :26:48. | :26:54. | |
ensure effective sanctions? Yes, both in New York but also on a more | :26:55. | :26:56. | |
regular basis. I beg leave to ask a question of | :26:57. | :27:12. | |
which I have given private notice. It is as follows. To ask Her | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
Majesty's Government what assessment they have made up the situation | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
regarding child refugees in de Calais and Dunkirk areas, and | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
whether they will take immediate steps to allow a significant number | :27:25. | :27:31. | |
to enter the UK? In 2016, the UK transferred more than 750 children | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
from France as part of the comprehensive support for the Calais | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
camp clearance. The UK also offered support to France following the | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
recent fire at Dunkirk. We continue to work closely with the French to | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
transfer eligible children under section 67 of the Immigration Act | :27:50. | :27:55. | |
under the Dublin regulation. The fastest route to safety is to claim | :27:56. | :28:01. | |
asylum in France. I welcome the fact that the Government announced in a | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
ministerial statement today that a further 130 children will be taken | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
into this country under section 67 of the Immigration Act. Even if the | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
reason is the Home Office having to hang its head in shame because they | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
made an administrative error that is part of collating the figures. That | :28:19. | :28:24. | |
comes out of Yes Minister. I want to put this to the minister. Will the | :28:25. | :28:32. | |
Government now consult local authorities, because there are many | :28:33. | :28:35. | |
not just in England but in other parts of the UK, who have expressed | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
a willingness to take more child refugees. Is the minister not aware | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
that many representations have been made recently about the available of | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
local authority faces? The administrative error is most | :28:49. | :28:56. | |
unfortunate, and for that I apologise. I wouldn't want to see | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
that happening. The good news is that we have an additional 130 | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
places and I think we should all be very pleased about that. I think the | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
important thing here is that no child has been disenfranchised, any | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
eligible child has been taken this part, 200 children have been taken | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
this far, so we haven't even got to the 350, so I wouldn't want the | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
noble lord to think that any child is disenfranchised because of this | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
administrative error, which is, as I have said, most regrettable. In | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
terms of the consultation, we have consulted local authorities and I | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
would like to say to noble lords, just for the record, that there are | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
4000 unaccompanied children in local authority care as we speak, and some | :29:45. | :29:50. | |
local authorities, like Kent and Croydon, host a disproportionate | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
number of judging. We are always very glad to hear local authorities | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
coming forward to take children through the National transfer | :30:00. | :30:05. | |
scheme, or indeed to take refugee children. But, my lords, it is not | :30:06. | :30:11. | |
like we had not consulted properly. I know the Immigration Minister | :30:12. | :30:17. | |
wrote to all local authorities, a national launch event was held, and | :30:18. | :30:21. | |
over ten metre events were held in every part of England as well as in | :30:22. | :30:28. | |
Scotland and one in Wales. -- and over ten regional events were held. | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
There were reports last week in the context of child refugees that an | :30:34. | :30:36. | |
assumption was being made that if such a child is disabled, they would | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
be debarred, because they were regarded as being too burdensome. | :30:41. | :30:43. | |
Will she take the opportunity to deny in all... With all possible | :30:44. | :30:49. | |
strength but that could be the Government's policy. It would never | :30:50. | :30:56. | |
be the Government's policy. I don't think it would be any government's | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
policy to disenfranchise a disabled child because they were too | :31:03. | :31:05. | |
burdensome. A child will be assessed under the criteria of Dublin or the | :31:06. | :31:12. | |
Vulnerable Children's Refugee Scheme. No child would ever be | :31:13. | :31:15. | |
disenfranchised because they were disabled and I can very strongly | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
confirm that. My two questions for the minister. Is the minister aware | :31:22. | :31:27. | |
that Help Refugees will press ahead with their pending court case as | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
their information data shows that further clerical errors exist? And | :31:32. | :31:38. | |
secondly, will become at except that we have a moral and legal duty to | :31:39. | :31:46. | |
these children, and reopen the Dublin Scheme to make sure that | :31:47. | :31:49. | |
these areas are ironed out once and for all and that we act with utmost | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
haste in bringing these unfortunate children to the UK? The Government | :31:55. | :32:02. | |
has been far too slow in acting. As of my first answer, we haven't | :32:03. | :32:09. | |
closed the Dublin Khan scheme. We have 200 children here. There is | :32:10. | :32:16. | |
potential for another 280 two arrive. And in terms of the court | :32:17. | :32:19. | |
case, I look forward to the outcome of the court case and I would not | :32:20. | :32:23. | |
want to comment on it at this stage. My lords, France or Europe is not | :32:24. | :32:31. | |
some war-torn country. So I am delighted that refugees are being | :32:32. | :32:34. | |
able to get to a place of safety, whether that is in France or indeed | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
here. My concern, of course, is that they are the most vulnerable | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
children and women and -- the most full of all women and children are | :32:45. | :32:47. | |
still in Syria and on its borders and can the minister say what | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
support the Government has given in this vital work? I am very pleased | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
to be able to do that and she is absolutely right that the most | :32:56. | :32:58. | |
vulnerable are actually still in the regions. And last year, the former | :32:59. | :33:05. | |
prime minister made an announcement to double the amount of assistance | :33:06. | :33:11. | |
going to the region to ?2.4 billion. Double the amount it had been | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
previously. But my noble friend makes exactly the right point that | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
we should be sending help to the regions where it is most needed. I | :33:21. | :33:25. | |
think it would have been better if the Government had come with an oral | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
statement to the House on this issue, rather than putting it in a | :33:31. | :33:36. | |
written statement just as we are about to seize sitting and it is of | :33:37. | :33:39. | |
considerable interest to the House. But when we discuss this in the | :33:40. | :33:46. | |
House the night the fabric, -- on the ninth of fabric, the Government | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
had in the official report or statement in the Commons that | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
McQuaid, local authorities told as they have capacity for about 400 | :33:54. | :33:56. | |
asylum seeking unaccompanied children until the end of this | :33:57. | :34:05. | |
financial year, that been 2016-17. And I asked the noble lady the | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
minister what capacity have local authorities told the Government they | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
have for unaccompanied asylum seeking children in the next | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
financial year? Namely 2017-18. On the basis that the current level of | :34:21. | :34:27. | |
Government funding is continued. I did not get a direct reply to that | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
question I asked. She has said the Government has been in constant | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
touch with local authorities, so can the minister gives the figure? What | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
capacity have local authorities told the Government they have for | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
unaccompanied asylum seekers and children in the next financial year, | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
namely this one, 2000 7-18, on the basis that the current level of | :34:51. | :34:57. | |
Government funding is continuing? As I outlined... As my right on both | :34:58. | :35:08. | |
run in the Other Place outlined in the written ministerial statement | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
yesterday, the capacity for the section 67 children is 480. In terms | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
of future commitments, obviously, we are ours from dissolution, so I | :35:18. | :35:26. | |
cannot make any future declarations at the dispatch box, much as I would | :35:27. | :35:33. | |
want to, those figures will be forthcoming should we be successful | :35:34. | :35:40. | |
in the general election. She says that there are 4000 children in | :35:41. | :35:47. | |
foster care. Are these 4000 asylum seeking unaccompanied youngsters to | :35:48. | :35:57. | |
be voted on? 4000 asylum seeking children? An issue about that of the | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
children dispersed in France, the 600 have made their way back to | :36:03. | :36:08. | |
Calais because they have been most not accepted in a very friendly way? | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
I'm not sure why children who had been accepted for local authority | :36:14. | :36:22. | |
accommodation here would want to go back to Calais. I'm sure there are | :36:23. | :36:34. | |
various reasons for that. To France. Sorry, I've slightly misheard the | :36:35. | :36:41. | |
tenet of the noble Lord's question you asked if 4000 unaccompanied | :36:42. | :36:50. | |
children in local authority care in this country, and there are, and | :36:51. | :36:56. | |
other children who were not eligible for either Dubs or Dublin have been | :36:57. | :37:12. | |
dispersed within France. My Lords, in these debates which we have on | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
the issue, the focus is almost exclusively on local authorities, | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
suggesting they are the only and best providers. Is that the case and | :37:21. | :37:26. | |
if so what is the arrangement by which other providers can link into | :37:27. | :37:29. | |
the system in order to increase the numbers of places available? I'm | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
glad my noble friend asked that question because the one thing the | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
government has been keen to promote is the community sponsorship scheme | :37:39. | :37:46. | |
which the Archbishop of Canterbury has taken part in in Lambeth Palace, | :37:47. | :37:54. | |
to take Syrian families and indeed in my own local authority of | :37:55. | :38:01. | |
Trafford we also have the community sponsorship scheme and I never let | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
the time pass up without encouraging noble lord who might know any | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
community sponsors who might be willing to come forward to take | :38:10. | :38:18. | |
families. My Lords, on Monday I advised the house that subject to | :38:19. | :38:25. | |
the progress of business we hoped to prorogue when today's business was | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
completed. The timing of prorogation today will depend on the time this | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
house takes to complete its business which is a course in the hands of | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
the house itself. We will adjourn and after we have considered the | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
motion in the name of Lord Clarke of Windermere and then resume for the | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
Royal commission. I anticipate this will not be for the -- before the | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
middle of the afternoon but when times are more certain we will | :38:55. | :39:02. | |
indicate them. Finally my Lords, I should alert the house to some | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
breaking news. We now have dates for state opening. On Monday the 19th of | :39:07. | :39:16. | |
June. And for the first meeting of parliament on Thursday the 13th and | :39:17. | :39:27. | |
Wednesday, I'm sorry, I'm getting the days muddled! These are a little | :39:28. | :39:33. | |
unusual as noble Lords will note. Tuesday the 13th and Wednesday the | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
14th of June the house will meet for the purposes of swearing in. I | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
understand the house authorities will shortly be issuing a Lords | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
notice confirming the arrangements for state opening and disillusion | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
including the use of the facilities of the house. The third reading of | :39:53. | :39:59. | |
the local ordered public access to documents Bill, Baroness eaten. My | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
Lords I beg to move that this bill now be read a third time. | :40:05. | :40:16. | |
The question is, that this Bill be now read a third time, as many of | :40:17. | :40:28. | |
that will -- that opinion say content, the content is have it. The | :40:29. | :40:36. | |
question is that this build now pass, as many of that opinion say | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
content, the country not content, the contents have it. The third | :40:42. | :40:46. | |
reading of the merchant shipping such conduct Bill. I beg to move | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
that this Bill be read a third time. The question is that this Bill be | :40:52. | :40:58. | |
read a third time. The contents habit. My lord I beg to move that | :40:59. | :41:05. | |
this Bill now pass. The question is that this Bill now pass. The | :41:06. | :41:15. | |
contents have it. The third reading chip of the guardianship missing | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
Persons Bill. I beg to move that this Bill be read a third time. The | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
question is that this Bill be read a third time. The contents have it. My | :41:24. | :41:32. | |
lord I beg to move that this Bill now pass. The question is that this | :41:33. | :41:39. | |
Bill do now pass. The contents habit. The third reading of the | :41:40. | :41:45. | |
barriers registration Bill. I beg to move that this bill be read a third | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
time. The question is that this Bill be read a third time. The contents | :41:51. | :41:59. | |
habit. My lord I beg to move that this Bill now do pass. The question | :42:00. | :42:10. | |
is that this Bill now do pass. The contents have it. Consideration of | :42:11. | :42:17. | |
commons wheezing and a moment to the higher education and research Bill. | :42:18. | :42:43. | |
The question is, I apologise that the Commons reason and amendment be | :42:44. | :42:57. | |
now considered. The contents have it. Motion A, Viscount Younger. | :42:58. | :43:36. | |
I beg to move motion A that this house do not insist on it amendment | :43:37. | :43:44. | |
one and do agree with the Commons in their amendments one A, one B, once | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
the and one D in new. I would like to say that I'm pleased to return to | :43:50. | :43:55. | |
the higher education research Bill which has been strengthened in this | :43:56. | :43:58. | |
house by the attention and expertise shown by noble Lords. Turning first | :43:59. | :44:06. | |
to the amendments, there has been much debate and discussion about the | :44:07. | :44:12. | |
importance of interlinked to protect both institutional autonomy and use | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
of the term University. In particular noble Lord Lord Stevenson | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
and Lord Kerslake and the noble Baroness is, Lady Woolf, Lady Brown | :44:22. | :44:27. | |
and Lady Gardner spoke eloquently at the committee stage about the | :44:28. | :44:30. | |
importance of ensuring there is proper protection in place and as a | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
result your door sips agreed amendment one. -- your Lordships. We | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
agreed with many of the sentiments behind the amendment, to continue to | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
protect institutional autonomy and responded with a significant package | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
of amendments designed to provide robust and meaningful protection of | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
this important principle, so vital to the success of our higher | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
education sector. Today the government proposes further | :44:58. | :45:03. | |
amendments to continue to protect the value and trepidation of the | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
University title and I am pleased to report that these amendments were | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
agreed yesterday in the other place. Our amendments ensure that before | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
permitting the use of University title, the office for students must | :45:17. | :45:20. | |
have regard to factors in guidance given by the Secretary of State. | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
Further to that, before giving the guidance, the Secretary of State | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
must consult bodies that represent higher education providers and | :45:30. | :45:32. | |
students and any other appropriate person. This will ensure the | :45:33. | :45:38. | |
guidance is correctly focused. Let me also reassure noble lord that | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
this consultation will be full and abroad. It will reference processes | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
and practices overseas, for example in Australia, and provide an | :45:49. | :45:51. | |
opportunity to look at a broad range of factors to consider before | :45:52. | :45:55. | |
granting the University title. This may include factors such as track | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
record in excellent teaching, sustained scholarship, cohesive | :46:00. | :46:07. | |
academic communities, interdisciplinary approaches, | :46:08. | :46:10. | |
supported learning infrastructures, dissemination of knowledge, public | :46:11. | :46:13. | |
facing role of universities, academic freedom and freedom of | :46:14. | :46:17. | |
speech, and wider support for students and pastoral care. These | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
factors chime with the comments on the definition of a university given | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
by my honourable friend the Minister in the other place and he has said | :46:27. | :46:32. | |
previously, in a limited sense a university can be described as | :46:33. | :46:34. | |
predominantly a degree level provide up with rewarding powers and if we | :46:35. | :46:40. | |
want a broader definition, we can say that the university is also | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
expected -- expected to be an institution that brings together a | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
body of scholars to book eight cohesive and self-critical academic | :46:49. | :46:50. | |
community that provides excellent learning opportunities for people, | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
the majority of whom are studying to degree level or above. We expect | :46:56. | :46:58. | |
teaching at such an institution to be informed by a combination of | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
research, scholarship and professional practice. To | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
distinguish it from what we conventionally understand the school | :47:08. | :47:10. | |
's role to be, we can say that the University is a place where students | :47:11. | :47:15. | |
are developing higher analytical capacities, critical thinking, | :47:16. | :47:17. | |
curiouser Diabate the world and higher levels of abstract capacity | :47:18. | :47:24. | |
in their thinking. -- curiosity in the world. The strength of the | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
university sector is based on its diversity and we continue to | :47:29. | :47:31. | |
recognise that a one size fits all approach is not in the interests of | :47:32. | :47:34. | |
students and wider society and particularly small providers that | :47:35. | :47:40. | |
are right the creative arts, agriculture and theology have a lot | :47:41. | :47:43. | |
more students with highly specialised career aims the | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
opportunity to study at university. As we said in the White Paper, and | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
throughout the passage of this Bill, the diversity of the sector and | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
opportunities for students have grown as a result of the important | :47:56. | :47:58. | |
changes introduced by the Labour government in 2004, namely the | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
lifting of the requirement for universities to have student in five | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
subject areas and award research degrees. We do not expect to go back | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
on the specific changes that were made. Turning to the teaching | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
excellence framework, I would like to thank noble Lord again for the | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
constructive engagement and consideration in particular the | :48:22. | :48:27. | |
noble Lord Lord Kerr slick and the noble Lord Lord Blunkett for the | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
time and energy they have put into this issue -- Lord Kerr 's lake. We | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
all agree students deserve high quality teaching and need access to | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
clear information as they make one of the most important decisions of | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
their lives so far. The crux of our debate has always focused on the | :48:45. | :48:53. | |
operation of the TEF and without financial incentives it would not | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
focus on teaching and help students make better choices and that is why | :48:58. | :49:02. | |
we are proposing to remove the two amendments this house previously | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
voted in which would render the TEF unworkable but it was clear from our | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
previous debate that no blood remained concerned about the | :49:11. | :49:13. | |
operation of the TEF and the link between it and fees -- noble Lords | :49:14. | :49:20. | |
remained concerned. We have listened to concerns raised and I'm delighted | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
to be able to put before this house is a set of amendments which I | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
believe directly address the most fundamental concerns raised during | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
our previous debates. I'm pleased to endorse amendment 23 C which | :49:34. | :49:41. | |
requires the Secretary of State to commission an independent review of | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
the TEF within one year of the clause commencing. Crucially the | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
amendment requires the Secretary of State to lay this report before | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
Parliament. This will ensure greater parliamentary accountability for the | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
framework as it moves forward. The report itself must cover many of the | :50:00. | :50:02. | |
aspects that have concerned members of this house and the other place | :50:03. | :50:08. | |
including firstly whether the metrics used are fit for use in the | :50:09. | :50:14. | |
TEF, secondly if the names of the ratings are appropriate for use, | :50:15. | :50:18. | |
thirdly the impact of the TEF on the ability providers to carry out their | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
research in teaching and other continents and finally an assessment | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
of whether the scheme is, all things considered, in the public interest. | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
I am happy to repeat the commitment made in the other place that the | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
Secretary of State will take account of the review and if he or she | :50:36. | :50:38. | |
considers it appropriate, will provide guidance to the OFS | :50:39. | :50:43. | |
accordingly included on any changes to the scheme that the review | :50:44. | :50:47. | |
suggests are needed, whether in relation to the metrics or any of | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
the other items that the review will look at. We have also had concerned | :50:52. | :50:59. | |
about the impact of the link between TEF and fees. We recognise the | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
important role of parliament in setting feed caps and that is why | :51:04. | :51:06. | |
I'm also pleased to seek your support for our amendments 12 a, B, | :51:07. | :51:14. | |
F and G, which meant the polity procedure required to alter in lieu | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
limit amounts to ensure any regulations that raise fees would be | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
septic as a minimum to the authority procedure which provide a greater | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
level polity oversight and the current legislation. But the more | :51:28. | :51:30. | |
these amendments demonstrate our commitment to a considered roll-out | :51:31. | :51:37. | |
of differentiated fees. Amendments in lieu 12 C and B will delay the | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
link between differentiating TEF ratings and tuition fee caps so this | :51:43. | :51:45. | |
will not be introduced over three years with the first year of | :51:46. | :51:50. | |
differentiated fees as a result of TEF ratings being no earlier than | :51:51. | :51:52. | |
the academic year beginning of autumn 2020. I would like to clarify | :51:53. | :51:58. | |
this point as I know that it is slightly complex. | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
Until August 2020 there will be no different show -- differentiation of | :52:04. | :52:12. | |
fee uplift. The fee cap will not differ according to the different | :52:13. | :52:14. | |
ratings they might be afforded. These amendments mean that until | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
that point or English providers participating in TEF will receive | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
the full inflation rate uplift, regardless of their rating. It will | :52:24. | :52:27. | |
be up to devolved administrations as before to determine whether they are | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
content for their institutions to participate in TEF and what impact | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
participation may have on their fees. So in practice, this means | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
that differentiated fees will not be introduced until after the | :52:41. | :52:43. | |
independent review as reported to the Secretary of State and | :52:44. | :52:46. | |
Parliament. I would therefore like to reiterate and reassure this House | :52:47. | :52:50. | |
today by repeating the commitment made by the minister for | :52:51. | :52:53. | |
universities in the Other Place yesterday that the ratings awarded | :52:54. | :52:59. | |
this year will not be used determine differentiated fees unless a | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
provider chooses not to re-enter TEF after the independent review. | :53:05. | :53:07. | |
Therefore, this year's ratings will only count towards a differentiated | :53:08. | :53:11. | |
fees if after the review, the provider does not ask for a fresh | :53:12. | :53:14. | |
assessment before the next one is due. An opportunity that will be | :53:15. | :53:20. | |
open to all participants. Before moving to our other amendments, | :53:21. | :53:23. | |
would like to reiterate to this House that we remain committed to | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
ensuring that the TEF will evolve to assess the teaching of quality at | :53:28. | :53:30. | |
subject level as well as institutional level. I know that | :53:31. | :53:34. | |
many noble lords feel very strongly, as we do, that the move to subject | :53:35. | :53:39. | |
level needs to happen as quickly as possible. However, we recognise that | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
subject level assessments are more challenging and that is why the | :53:43. | :53:45. | |
Government has previously announced an extension to the roll-out of | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
subject level TEF with an additional year of piloting. This follows the | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
best practice demonstrated in the research excellence framework and | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
means that subject level assessments will not take place until spring | :53:58. | :54:04. | |
2020. I beg to move. The question is that motion let a be agreed to. I | :54:05. | :54:14. | |
rise to speak to motion letter a. The Lords amendment defined the | :54:15. | :54:20. | |
functions of the University essentially protecting the use of | :54:21. | :54:24. | |
university title by describing the characteristics of an organisation | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
which can be granted such title. The several purposes of this amendment | :54:29. | :54:37. | |
included ensuring institutions called link themselves universities | :54:38. | :54:43. | |
engaged in scholarship, both as part of student learning, learning that | :54:44. | :54:45. | |
would take place in an environment where disciplines meet and melt, and | :54:46. | :54:51. | |
that universities would recognise the special place they hold in | :54:52. | :54:55. | |
society by contributing to our society not only by teaching and | :54:56. | :54:58. | |
dissemination of knowledge but also for example by partnering with | :54:59. | :55:03. | |
charities, schools and colleges, local, regional initiatives, to | :55:04. | :55:09. | |
deliver a benefit well beyond their immediate staff and students. | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
International research clearly demonstrates the impact that engaged | :55:14. | :55:16. | |
universities can have on local communities. Many other countries, | :55:17. | :55:22. | |
including for example Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, the Canadian | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
provinces, Germany, Spain and India have a definition of university or | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
or its functions and activities in legislation. So an overarching | :55:32. | :55:35. | |
objective of the Lords amendment was to protect the reputation of | :55:36. | :55:38. | |
universities in this country, going beyond the situation in the bill | :55:39. | :55:44. | |
when the OFS might consent to the institutions' use of the university | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
title if that institution were a registered higher education | :55:50. | :55:52. | |
provider. I think this would have community to the world, and I think | :55:53. | :55:55. | |
that is particularly important at a time when we are leaving be you, | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
that are higher education system is open for expansion and innovation, | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
but that university title in England is not given easily. It would tell | :56:05. | :56:10. | |
potential students about the sort of institution and learning environment | :56:11. | :56:13. | |
that they should expect from a university, and I think it would | :56:14. | :56:16. | |
also encourage new entrants to the sector. | :56:17. | :56:27. | |
I appreciate that the Government has worked to ensure that university | :56:28. | :56:36. | |
autonomy is a strong feature of the bill but I'm disappointed elsewhere. | :56:37. | :56:42. | |
However, I'm reassured that the Government amendments in the Other | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
Place, in view of the Lords amendment, required the OFS to have | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
regard to factors set out in guided by the secretary of the state by | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
awarding the university title and I'm pleased that the Secretary of | :56:55. | :56:57. | |
State will consult on these factors. Indeed, I'm strongly welcoming of | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
the comments by the minister for universities' science, research and | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
innovation in the Other Place yesterday. That is about the | :57:07. | :57:13. | |
consultation being full and brought and about the type of factors that | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
would be included in the consultation. I agree that this is | :57:18. | :57:23. | |
an approach which can deliver both widely supported and strong guidance | :57:24. | :57:29. | |
for the office the students, with criteria to award the university | :57:30. | :57:32. | |
title. So I would like to record my thanks to the ministers and their | :57:33. | :57:36. | |
team and I would just like to put one final question to the noble | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
Viscount, the minister, today. In the week that we have heard that | :57:41. | :57:45. | |
China has sent senior Government officials into its leading | :57:46. | :57:47. | |
universities because of concerns over Government criticism and | :57:48. | :57:53. | |
westernisation, does he not think that it would have been a great | :57:54. | :57:57. | |
message for us to have been positively encouraging, if not | :57:58. | :58:02. | |
insisting, that universities act as critics of Government and the | :58:03. | :58:07. | |
conscience of society, as the Lords amendment also suggested? My Lords, | :58:08. | :58:14. | |
I should first declare my interest as chair of the Board of Governors | :58:15. | :58:20. | |
of Sheffield Hallam University. I should also record that the Vice | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
Chancellor of Sheffield Hallam, Chris husbands, has been leading | :58:25. | :58:28. | |
work on incrimination of the teaching excellence framework on | :58:29. | :58:34. | |
behalf of the Government. -- implementation. It falls to me to | :58:35. | :58:39. | |
lead the response on the set of governments amendments in motion B | :58:40. | :58:45. | |
and D. It is important to say that this part of the bill has been | :58:46. | :58:49. | |
subject to many contributions during debates. From the start, it has been | :58:50. | :58:56. | |
clear that there has been general support for the Government's decide | :58:57. | :59:02. | |
to raise the profile importance accorded to teaching in our | :59:03. | :59:04. | |
universities. That has not been a point of issue. There has also been | :59:05. | :59:09. | |
a general understanding that fees will over time need to rise with | :59:10. | :59:18. | |
inflation. The concerns have been with the Government's approach to | :59:19. | :59:23. | |
introducing TEF at the link being made between the TEF and increases | :59:24. | :59:31. | |
in fees. In particular, that the TEF was being introduced with undue | :59:32. | :59:36. | |
haste, that the gold, silver, bronze rankings being put forward by both | :59:37. | :59:40. | |
inappropriate and potentially damaging to the sector. And that the | :59:41. | :59:49. | |
TEF was not the right basis for allowing differential fee increases. | :59:50. | :59:54. | |
The amendments now being put forward by the Government in place of our | :59:55. | :00:00. | |
amendments I think go a considerable way to addressing those strong | :00:01. | :00:07. | |
concerns. As the minister has said, the review will be independently led | :00:08. | :00:13. | |
and must cover the process by which the ratings are determined, whether | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
the metrics are fit for purpose, whether the classification is | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
awarded are appropriate, what the impact of the scheme will be on | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
higher education providers, and whether the TEF is in the public | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
interest. By any measure, that is a comprehensive review, and we will | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
all await with interest the outcome. It is essential that any future | :00:40. | :00:46. | |
Secretary of State takes full account of its findings and | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
recommendations. All above tests are important. But I would place to give | :00:52. | :00:58. | |
emphasis on the review of the rankings and the public interest | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
test. In this context, there is one point that I would like the minister | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
did horrify, and I have notified the minister's office in advance -- I | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
would like the minister to clarify. I would be grateful if the minister | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
could confirm that it will be open to a review to say that we should | :01:19. | :01:25. | |
either stay within the current rankings, propose an alternative set | :01:26. | :01:32. | |
of rankings, or indeed conclude that ranking of universities of any sort | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
is simply not appropriate in what is a very diverse sector. I look | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
forward to the minister's response. The ability to differentiate | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
increases linked to the TEF has not been removed from the bill as we | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
proposed. But the Government's amendment will delay any | :01:55. | :02:01. | |
differentiation until at least the academic year 2020-21, and as the | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
minister has said, this will allow time for the review to be completed, | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
and its conclusions properly considered. And in the meantime, it | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
is something that all sides of the House supported, existing | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
universities involved in the process will get the full inflationary | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
uplift. I believe this is a significant and very welcome move by | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
the Government, and I know that it has not been likely conceded. There | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
remains, though, the issue of publication of the results of the | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
trial TEF assessment process. I understand, although it would be | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
helpful for the minister to confirm, that these results will not now be | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
published until after the election, when a new ministerial team are in | :02:49. | :02:54. | |
place. I hope that that new ministerial team will consider very | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
carefully how the issue of publication should be handled, | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
particularly given the implication that TEF will be subject to a wide | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
ranging view. I set at committee stage that I could not think of | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
anyone better placed to lead the work on the TEF and Chris husbands. | :03:14. | :03:20. | |
That firmly remains my view. He and his fellow assessors have applied | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
themselves diligently and fairly to the task they were given. The fault | :03:24. | :03:30. | |
here, I fear, lay in the way that they were commissioned by the | :03:31. | :03:37. | |
Government to undertake the task. The independent review and the delay | :03:38. | :03:40. | |
will provide an opportunity to get this right. In particular, I think | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
that the gold, silver and bronze rankings are not long for this | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
world. I hope that what comes out is a much more sufficient indicated -- | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
sophisticated and evidence -based approach to subjects, as proposed by | :03:59. | :04:09. | |
a noble lord. Finally, as I am unlikely to speak again in this | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
debate, I would like to pay tribute to peers on this side of the House | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
for their valuable work in reviewing and amending this bill, to the noble | :04:17. | :04:25. | |
lord Lord Stevenson and two lady Garden and to others in this House | :04:26. | :04:32. | |
for being both willing to listen and to respond to our concerns. That is | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
what this thread should be about. This is still not the bill that we | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
might have wanted, but it is considerably improved from when it | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
came into this House. I hope that there will be no further bills on | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
higher education for a considerable period of time. And the sector will | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
be given the chance to have the stability it needs to do what it | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
does best to represent the interests of this country. I share some of the | :05:03. | :05:12. | |
disappointment accepted by my noble friend Baroness Brown about the | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
definition of a university. But I take great comfort at a significant | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
step forward, which may have escaped the attention of some members of the | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
public, I am extremely grateful to both the minister Joe Johnson and | :05:29. | :05:35. | |
the noble Viscount Younger, for having listened to those who have | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
expressed significant concerns about the inroads into freedom of speech | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
in our universities. And the growth of the most unpleasant racism | :05:47. | :05:53. | |
expressed in the widespread extent of anti-Semitic activity. I am sure | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
all members of the House will support me in expressing gratitude | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
to the two ministers for having understood that and having addressed | :06:06. | :06:14. | |
it, albeit off the face of the bill. Universities' obligations and | :06:15. | :06:17. | |
freedom of speech have been extended and all universities have been | :06:18. | :06:24. | |
reminded by the minister of the definition of anti-Semitism, which | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
has been adopted internationally. That, I think, is a great step | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
forward towards repairing the replication of our universities, | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
which has been suffering internally, if not internationally. | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
I also take some comfort from the fact that the last president of the | :06:44. | :06:53. | |
National Union of Students has not been re-elected in part because some | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
consider some of their remarks have been racist and I believe we are | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
moving into a new era as far as that is concerned. I would also like to | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
take this opportunity of saluting Sir Eric Pickles, the government's | :07:09. | :07:16. | |
envoy for post-Holocaust issues, who joined in the fight to preserve | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
freedom of speech and stop anti-Semitism and this is very good | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
news. We will miss him sorely. And finally, especially on these | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
benches, it has been evident in the discussions about this bill just how | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
much expertise there is in this house about higher education, | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
chancellors, vice chancellors, administrators and professors have | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
all joined in and we have eventually been listened to. I think that goes | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
to establish the value of the expertise accumulated in this house. | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
Some of it may be very elderly but there is a great deal of expertise | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
in higher education and it has come in the end, shone through. My lord | :08:00. | :08:07. | |
could I firstly draw attention to my declaration of interest on the | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
register. It is not my intention to repeat the excellent contributions | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
that have already been made but I would like to put on record my | :08:16. | :08:22. | |
commendation for Chris husbands, the vice Chancellor of what some | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
unwisely called the University in which I'm involved, the other | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
university in Sheffield. His work is of excellent quality and I hope very | :08:33. | :08:40. | |
much that we will be able to build on that in the years to come. I | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
would however like to repeat what Lord Kerslake said in terms of what | :08:47. | :08:53. | |
happens after the general election in ensuring that nothing is done, | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
particularly in relation to the evaluation in the ratings, that | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
damages in any way the enormous contribution of the higher education | :09:03. | :09:10. | |
sector in this country both to the well-being of students themselves | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
but to our economy and our standing in the world. I think there can be | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
no doubt after the considerable debates we have had in this house | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
that there is a deep commitment along with the Minister and the | :09:27. | :09:35. | |
noble Viscount in hearing this house to improving teaching and to | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
recognising the critical role of teaching excellence framework going | :09:41. | :09:48. | |
forward in ensuring that along with the research excellence framework, | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
it is worth putting on the record at this late stage, there is still a | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
major tendency to value what will pull in major grants for research | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
even when the research might be of doubtful value rather than the | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
importance of balancing the commitment to high-quality teaching | :10:09. | :10:16. | |
learning with the REF and that is what I'm committed and have said to | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
Joe Johnson in the Commons and repeat today, a real support for the | :10:20. | :10:26. | |
endeavour to put teaching very much at the top of the agenda. Could I | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
also commend the government for having listened. This has been an | :10:32. | :10:38. | |
exemplar in terms of the way in which we can work across the | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
different divides politically in this house and beyond, and I hope | :10:43. | :10:53. | |
that, and I refer now to speculation in the more reliable media, no one | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
will be punished in any way for having been prepared to listen and | :11:00. | :11:06. | |
debate. The idea that a minister should not be able to express their | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
view internally within the government is a disgrace. And I know | :11:11. | :11:17. | |
that, I don't wish to bring in party political matters, but I know | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
Conservative MPs are said to call the Prime Minister mummy but I | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
remember mummy telling me that she heard me once and heard me twice and | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
didn't want to hear me again but you can't conduct government on that | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
basis. And therefore whatever happens on the 8th of June, I hope | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
we will move forward understanding that the spirit of cooperation | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
create better legislation which is more easily implementable and | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
received a wider welcome that would otherwise be the case and therefore | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
achieves is objected also I would like to thank the Minister for his | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
words, repeating those of Jo Johnson, relating to the move as | :12:01. | :12:08. | |
rapidly as possible to subject rather than institutional comparator | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
and I think this is an important part of what we are debating on what | :12:15. | :12:21. | |
has Amendment 72 morphed into Amendment 23 and is back with is in | :12:22. | :12:29. | |
a different form today. I also want to say how impressed I've been as a | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
new member of this house with the crossbench contributions and I | :12:33. | :12:39. | |
repeat the commendation that Lord Kerslake made rather than going over | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
them again. I do think that ministers and civil servants have | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
been of the highest possible calibre in being prepared to listen and | :12:51. | :12:59. | |
respond and I thank them for it. ... Associate us with the eloquent words | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
we have heard here. There will inevitably be a measure of | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
disappointment not all of your Lordships whisper and has been | :13:08. | :13:10. | |
accepted unequivocally by the other house but we have made immense | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
strides and we are deeply appreciative of the way in which the | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
ministers have listened and come forward with proposals here. If I | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
can pick up one thing about which we are particularly pleased, that there | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
will be Adelaide in implementing this while there is a review because | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
there are some key measures within this Bill which do need more | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
reflection to see if they are the right path to be treading -- there | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
will be a delay. I think we can appreciate that has been built in | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
but we appreciate the measures the government has taken to come towards | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
us on these issues. My Lords, first I should declare an interest as a | :13:52. | :13:57. | |
full-time employment Council member of Kings College London. I had not | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
expected to speak in this part of the debate and I will be speaking | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
again later but since I am on my feet I would also like to reiterate | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
and agree with everybody who has said how much we appreciate the ways | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
in which the government has listened to opinions and to this house | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
generally and I also feel we have come a long way. And in this context | :14:21. | :14:27. | |
and speaking in order to bring back a couple of points that were made in | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
the earlier debates by the noble duke, the Duke of Wellington, and | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
myself in the context of amendments table and since the noble duke is | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
unable to be here this morning, I am going to make them briefly on both | :14:43. | :14:49. | |
of our behalf is. I think like pretty much everybody here we | :14:50. | :14:59. | |
welcome strongly the delay in implementing the issue and I would | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
like to endorse the remarks on this and I'm delighted to hear that we | :15:03. | :15:09. | |
are moving very fast to a situation where we have sub sect level rather | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
than institutional level assessments. -- subject level. I | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
would like to make the point that one of the reasons we became so | :15:19. | :15:26. | |
concerned about the TEF is putting a label on institutions is potentially | :15:27. | :15:29. | |
very damaging to it. One of the things which has been to me rather | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
an eye-opener is the extent to which perhaps inevitably, I have been | :15:36. | :15:43. | |
rather surprised by the extent to which the sector in the view of | :15:44. | :15:46. | |
government is the organised universities you get -- universities | :15:47. | :15:57. | |
UK and at by how few good mechanisms there are for the bill team and the | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
Department to actually get the voice of students as opposed to | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
occasionally that of the National unions are students and students | :16:07. | :16:08. | |
have been desperately concerned about this. They are in a world | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
where they are paying fees and the reputation of the institutions is so | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
great and they have been worried and is deeply opposed to anything which | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
just put a single label on them and I think it is this single national | :16:22. | :16:28. | |
ranking which caused many concerns. Therefore what I would like to say | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
is a couple of things which are really for the incoming secretary of | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
state and government and Minister which I hope they will bear in mind. | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
The first is something which other people have already alluded to, the | :16:41. | :16:43. | |
fact that we have a pilot going on and a system of graves which is | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
going on and I understand it is underweight and there are enormous | :16:48. | :16:50. | |
lessons to be learned from it but I very much hope that after the | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
election the government will think very hard about how they use that | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
information and publish it and whether or not they are in any sense | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
obliged to come forward with the type of single rank National League | :17:06. | :17:11. | |
table which has caused so much anxiety to students. And I do think | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
that it is of great concern and it is hard to see how this serves the | :17:18. | :17:26. | |
purpose which is also expressed in the current Conservative manifesto | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
of preserving the reputation of our great university sector. The other | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
thing which I do feel is something I would love the incoming government | :17:38. | :17:43. | |
to think about is how to widen out their contacts with not just the | :17:44. | :17:49. | |
organised sector, not just universities UK, but with the | :17:50. | :17:52. | |
academics and students who are really what the sector is about. We | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
have great universities not because we have activist managerial vice | :17:58. | :17:59. | |
chancellors but because they are autonomous in large measure | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
internally as well as these are the weak state and that is a real | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
concern and since you are going to have an office for students, it | :18:10. | :18:12. | |
would be very good if post election we could actually make it genuinely | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
an office for students. Thank you. My Lords, this is a very big Bill | :18:19. | :18:26. | |
and I share the feeling of Lord in lieu that is perhaps one we will not | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
seek for a long time to come and we should enjoy what we are seeing. I | :18:31. | :18:37. | |
think we should bear in mind that this bill attracted over 700 | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
amendments and has resulted at the latest count in 31 major concessions | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
made by the government to the voices raised both in the other place but | :18:47. | :18:49. | |
particularly here in relation to some of these issues. The noble | :18:50. | :18:57. | |
Baroness was right to reflect on the fact that we have in the Kvist | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
although impotent is indeed the end of the process rather than the whole | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
process -- in front of us is important. In the list of things | :19:06. | :19:13. | |
that have moved in the bill that are important aspect not just freedom of | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
speech which is tremendously important but also measures which | :19:18. | :19:20. | |
will improve collaboration in the sector and will help reverse the | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
decline in part-time students and will assist those mature students | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
who wish to come back and paves the way for more working if they are | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
going out of flexible causes. These are more changes to the | :19:37. | :19:38. | |
infrastructure of the higher education system and will make it | :19:39. | :19:41. | |
better and have not been picked up today because they were dealt with | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
early in the process but they are important as have not been | :19:45. | :19:47. | |
forgotten. We also do not have anything today about the UK are eye | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
and the developments in that area which is to change radically the | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
consensus operating in science and research more generally -- in the UK | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
RI. It is important to reflect the changes went through after debate | :20:04. | :20:06. | |
and discussion after some minor adjustment but not many primarily | :20:07. | :20:09. | |
because there was an effort made to make sure that the words being used | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
to describe the changes made were understood properly and a lot of | :20:15. | :20:17. | |
time was spent in going around talking to people and make sure they | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
were happy with that. This whole process has been -- is an example of | :20:21. | :20:29. | |
what this house is good at, which should be more widely developed | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
within the political debate, that there is room for civilised debate | :20:36. | :20:38. | |
and discussion about every issue, it does not have to be party political, | :20:39. | :20:47. | |
it can be small p political but it can aim to arrive at a better | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
overall solution and I am sure what we're achieving today has ticked the | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
box on all these areas. The four motion introduced by the noble | :20:57. | :21:03. | |
Viscount the Minister which I'm grateful to him before and he spent | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
time, having been warned by us not to spend so much time on his feet, | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
be time for that as ended and was necessary to go through that process | :21:14. | :21:16. | |
but we have all benefited from it because these words are important in | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
understanding the changes made at relatively high speed in the last | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
few days in order to get this bill to a point where it could pass | :21:24. | :21:26. | |
through both houses so I'm grateful to him for that and I think his | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
words are important and as far as I could tell they were the same as | :21:31. | :21:33. | |
those used in the other place, close reading of Hansard might be required | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
but I'm confident that this ability is there to make sure women right | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
place. On the definition at university I have confidence that is | :21:43. | :21:45. | |
what is now in the statute will get us to appoint that will reach out to | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
a point which will allow us to have a better understanding it | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
constitutes a university which will be of benefit to us both internally | :21:55. | :21:55. | |
in the UK and On the TEF which has been the main | :21:56. | :22:10. | |
issue, the main concern, three points. I think it is important that | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
we pick out the flurry of amendments that the main factor that this is | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
that together Parliament retains a lock on how the TEF will be | :22:22. | :22:27. | |
delivered and the design and the implementation. I think that is | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
important, partly because of the way in which the review will work but | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
partly also because of the change to an affirmative regulation of | :22:37. | :22:39. | |
unnecessary regulations of this. I think that is good and I welcome | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
that. A number of noble Lords have mentioned the focus that may be | :22:44. | :22:51. | |
behind it in relation to course level issues. I wonder if I could | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
just ask the Minister if he can reflect a little on that. I don't | :22:57. | :23:04. | |
think this is an Iva- or, is that the less that can be said about an | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
institutional measure and the more that can be said on what is actually | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
going on in the courses and subjects taught in university, the battle | :23:16. | :23:18. | |
that will be and I wonder if he would like to confirm that that is, | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
at least in part with the government is also trying to get to because | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
that will take a lot the heat out of the issues that remain in this area. | :23:27. | :23:32. | |
On the issue of the of the pilot result, which was touched on by Lord | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
Kerslake, there are questions about that and I look forward to hearing | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
the responses. It seems to mirror reflecting on the issues we have in | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
front of us that way you are committing to carry out a review of | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
this is you, digging up the trains and examining how these uses are put | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
together, reflecting on how it is presented, how it appears in public, | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
I think it would be injudicious to make too much of an issue about the | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
publication of the pilots, which are only pilots, which we all know are | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
not perfect and not the way that this thing runs in the long run. It | :24:10. | :24:18. | |
would be helpful if more could be said on this point. My Lords, there | :24:19. | :24:24. | |
is a fourth motion, I think it is a technical one, it wasn't referred to | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
much by the noble Lord the minister but it is consequential on | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
amendments to affirmative regulations and affects the rather | :24:32. | :24:34. | |
narrow issue, the question of accelerated degrees, where an | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
institution wishes to complete in a shorter period of time than is | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
conventional in this case, the course or degree it is teaching, | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
that it will be possible for it to raise fees to compensate for that. I | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
think this is probably a good thing but I wonder if, when it comes to | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
responding that you can confirm that these amendments do not affect the | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
good progress we're making on trying to make a more flexible system | :25:00. | :25:02. | |
available in higher education will encourage people to come in, take | :25:03. | :25:08. | |
part in the course, go out and work, come back, all the flexibility that | :25:09. | :25:10. | |
goes with credit transfer and flexible courses should not be | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
debarred because course fee structures are being inflexible. My | :25:15. | :25:21. | |
Lords, I would like to make a Fisher brief comments in response to those | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
contributors to this short debate. Can I just start by agreeing with | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
the comments made by the noble Lord Lord Stevenson and 2-mac about the | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
spirit in which this bill has been taken to the House. I agree with | :25:36. | :25:38. | |
pretty much everything the noble Lord has said. I would like to start | :25:39. | :25:44. | |
by addressing some points made by baroness Lady Brown, particularly in | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
terms of protecting university title. I would like to thank once | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
again the noble Lords for the active engagement around new clause one and | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
in particular the noble Baroness for making such strong arguments for the | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
need to protect the value of University title. We recognise the | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
need for strong protections, which is reflected in our amendment in | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
you. The noble Baroness Lady Brown also asked about universities asking | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
as critics of government -- acting of critics. There was a mention of | :26:15. | :26:20. | |
China. I agree that universities and stuff must have proper freedoms to | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
question and test perceived wisdom. And to put forward new ideas and | :26:25. | :26:30. | |
controversial or unpopular opinions. Which is why we have ensured that | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
these continue to be enshrined in legislation and the public interest | :26:35. | :26:41. | |
government 's conditions which will be imposed on only registered | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
providers as the UFS considers appropriate, it's important at this | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
late stage in the bill to reemphasise this and I thank the | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
noble Baroness for that. I would like to thank Lord Dursley for the | :26:55. | :27:07. | |
progress made on the TEF. I would like to respond to him and reassure | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
the noble Lord Lord blanket. Lord Kerslake asked of the independent | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
review would be open to amending the existing rankings, a different set | :27:18. | :27:20. | |
of rankings on a system of ranking at all. I'm pleased to give the | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
noble Lords of this House the categorical answer that yes, the | :27:27. | :27:29. | |
independent review is required by our amendment which leads us to | :27:30. | :27:36. | |
consider whether those names are appropriate. The review is also | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
required to consider whether such schemes are in the public interest | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
and other matters that they consider relevant. The independent reviewer | :27:46. | :27:48. | |
would therefore be free to describe the matters described by the noble | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
Lords so I hope that answers that question. The noble Lord Lord | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
Kerslake and the noble Lord Lord blanket asked if the trial results | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
of TEF would not be published until after the election and I can confirm | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
that the Higher Education Funding Council will publish this's TEF | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
results after the general election on eighth June. I would like to say | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
briefly some thanks to the noble Baroness Lady Deitch for kind | :28:17. | :28:22. | |
comments about the important issues of freedom of speech and more | :28:23. | :28:25. | |
generally for the considerable contribution and she has made | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
personally on these important issues. Moving on to courses which I | :28:29. | :28:34. | |
think the noble Lord Lord Stevenson raised, absolutely, it is desirable | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
to move towards the assessment of courses, because as we know, | :28:41. | :28:43. | |
students when they are looking at which university to go to, look, or | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
perhaps they should look, thinking of my own children, at what causes | :28:49. | :28:55. | |
are most suitable for them, that is a desirable way forward and doesn't | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
mean that the full spotlight is on the focus themselves which I suggest | :29:01. | :29:03. | |
is the gist of the questions about is very much the spirit of what I'm | :29:04. | :29:11. | |
aiming to do. The noble Lord Lord blanket praised Chris husbands and I | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
would like to say that I do agree indeed that Chris Husband has made a | :29:18. | :29:23. | |
significant contribution towards the TEF and I want to thank noble Lord | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
Lord blanket as well for his contributions to this debate and | :29:28. | :29:34. | |
praise for the TEF chair. The noble Baroness Lady Woolf raised some | :29:35. | :29:37. | |
points about not publishing the results of this your's ratings. I | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
would like to point out that the first TOWIE assessments are well | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
under way, and almost 300 providers, I think it's actually 299, opted to | :29:48. | :29:54. | |
participate, fully aware that by participating they would receive the | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
ratings, so they would be published. I should make that clear in terms of | :29:59. | :30:05. | |
the point that she raised. I do believe that I have covered, there | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
is one final point that I would like to cover raised by the noble Lord | :30:10. | :30:17. | |
Lord Stevenson. He asked if this affects the ability for flexible | :30:18. | :30:21. | |
learning and I can confirm that they do not. So we do agree with him | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
about the importance of flexible learning. And with that my Lords I | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
beg to move. The question is that the motion may be agreed to do. As | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
many that are in agreement say content, the contrary say not | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
content, the contents have it. The motion may be moved formerly. The | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
question is that motion brother Mike B agreed to, those in favour say | :30:44. | :30:46. | |
content, those against sin not content. My Lords I beg to move | :30:47. | :31:01. | |
motion C that this has agrees with the Commons in the amendments of 15 | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
A and 15 B in lieu. Turning to the issue of appeals against revocation | :31:07. | :31:09. | |
of degree awarding powers and University title. We introduced | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
amendments during the passage of the bill in this house which provide | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
additional safeguards around the revocation of degree awarding powers | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
and University title. By clearly setting out when these powers can be | :31:25. | :31:29. | |
used. This was in recognition when these are last resort powers, | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
amendments were also passed relating to appeals against such decisions. | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
But report stage in this House the noble and learned and Lord Lord | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
Judge and others advanced compelling arguments about the need for strong | :31:42. | :31:47. | |
appeals provisions in cases where a provider's degree awarding powers | :31:48. | :31:55. | |
title revoked. Including the first we take tribunal to take the | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
decision. We absolutely agree that the powers in this respect need to | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
be subjected to the right safeguards so I am pleased to say that the | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
other place has agreed these amendments in lieu, amendment 78 a | :32:09. | :32:14. | |
278 age. The same aims as a Lords amendment 78 and 106 but would align | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
the wording more closely with that used elsewhere in the legislation. | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
The amendments allow an appeal on a limited grounds and permit the first | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
tier tribunal to retake any decision of the OS as to revoke degree | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
awarding powers or University title. I would like to thank the noble and | :32:33. | :32:40. | |
learned and Lord Lord Judge along with the noble Baroness Lady Felix | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
Abril powers of the committee for the time, energy and expertise that | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
they have put into the scrutiny of this bill. Moving to the issue of | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
student electoral registration, in both this House and the other place, | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
we have heard powerful and convincing arguments about the | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
importance of student electoral registration. I do commend the noble | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
Baroness 's Lady Royal and Lady Garden and other noble lords who | :33:06. | :33:08. | |
have spoken eloquently on this issue. We all agree that | :33:09. | :33:11. | |
participation in the democratic process by all parts of society is | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
vital for a healthy democracy. We have thought carefully about the | :33:17. | :33:19. | |
issues raised both in this place and the other place. In place of the | :33:20. | :33:26. | |
amendment passed on this issue at report stage I'm pleased to invite | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
this House to agreed amendments 15 A- 15 B in lieu, which will improve | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
the electoral registration of students. The amendments to this by | :33:36. | :33:42. | |
permitting the UART FS two compose a process of registration which will | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
require governing bodies to take steps required by the U FS to | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
facilitate cooperation with the bodies in England. The amendment | :33:53. | :34:00. | |
replaces requirement within the new regulatory frame network while | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
equally importantly maintaining an altered the statutory roles and | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
responsibilities of ER ohs for ensuring the accuracy of the | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
register. These amendments will complement the existing powers of | :34:13. | :34:21. | |
the Euros. The UFS will have regard to ministerial guidance, is sued | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
under the general laws of the bill. This layout of the government | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
expects in relation to the electoral registration condition alongside | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
expectations about the other function of the UART FS. In using | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
the term co-operation in the amendment we anticipate that the | :34:38. | :34:40. | |
ministerial guidance will state that is part of this corporation Mac that | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
the URI FS should require providers to facilitate student electoral | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
registration. We also anticipate that the guidance will state that | :34:50. | :34:57. | |
providers will cooperate with ERos for purposes of maintaining the | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
accuracy of electoral registers. There are many excellent examples | :35:04. | :35:06. | |
across the sector of methods to encourage students to join the | :35:07. | :35:10. | |
electoral register including models put in place by the universities of | :35:11. | :35:13. | |
Sheffield and Cardiff which provide examples of good practice. I also | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
wish to take this opportunity to thank the noble Baroness Lady Royal | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
for championing this issue and recognising the work that she and | :35:23. | :35:25. | |
others have taken forward on registration at the University of | :35:26. | :35:31. | |
Bath. Through our amendments the URL as well have power to impose an | :35:32. | :35:34. | |
electoral registration condition to deal with higher education providers | :35:35. | :35:41. | |
not doing enough to cooperate with administrators. When imposed the | :35:42. | :35:44. | |
commission takes effect as their requirement. It will oblige action | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
to be taken. The clear rain is whether you are FS to look across | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
the sector and when needed to make sure that necessary action is taken. | :35:54. | :36:01. | |
The committee than Compal steps to be taken so that registration can be | :36:02. | :36:07. | |
facilitated. Noncompliance as with any registration condition is | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
possible including from you FS sanctions and I want to reiterate | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
our commitment that the ability of students to register to vote should | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
be as broad and strong as possible. To conclude, my Lords, the | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
government shares the aim of increasing the number of students | :36:24. | :36:25. | |
among young people registered to vote. We agree with the noble Lords | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
that it is vital that we have a healthy democracy that works for | :36:31. | :36:33. | |
everyone and the views of students and young people are reflected in a | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
democratic process. My Lords I believe that this amendment will | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
help achieve this goal and I beg to move. | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
The question is seen would be agreed to. -- Motion C. I speak to motion | :36:47. | :36:59. | |
at the very briefly. The original bill produced an appeal system that | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
was far too narrow. The Amendment proposed by the Lords and myself | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
suggested it should be wider. We used words which were reflective of | :37:10. | :37:15. | |
advocacy rather than law. We argued that the ground of appeal should be | :37:16. | :37:18. | |
on the basis of the decision being wrong. That view appealed to this | :37:19. | :37:25. | |
House. We have reconsidered it am a we have discussed it with the | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
secretary of state and the Minister. The Amendment now proposed by the | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
Government makes much better lot and in those circumstances I support the | :37:35. | :37:39. | |
Government's amendments. Villa my Lords, I declare my interest as the | :37:40. | :37:42. | |
register and I am very grateful to the Government for tabling | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
amendments a and 15 B and I put on record my specific things to the | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
ministers Joe Johnson and Chris Skidmore along with her officials | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
for their time and their willingness to find a compromise following the | :37:57. | :37:59. | |
adoption by this House of my Amendment. This issue of advocacy by | :38:00. | :38:07. | |
my honourable friend, who has done much work on the registration of | :38:08. | :38:10. | |
students to vote and by organisations like Catt ballot, the | :38:11. | :38:21. | |
voice and use of Association of the lecture ministers was very upland | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
selecting my case and I have to say the chief executive John Turner | :38:26. | :38:28. | |
expressed some surprise that the Minister suggested at the report | :38:29. | :38:31. | |
states that the association did not take a positive view. It is divided | :38:32. | :38:38. | |
on the issue, but I trust they will now do everything possible to ensure | :38:39. | :38:41. | |
all universities comply with this new requirement, this new | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
obligation, at the earliest opportunity. I well understand that | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
we all have the same aim to enable the greatest number of students to | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
register to vote and will shape the future of this country so it works | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
for the future of young people. It will probably not be possible for | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
ministerial guidelines to be published before the enrollment of | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
students this autumn, so I hope that whatever minister is in office will | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
draw attention of higher education institutions to best practice that | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
exists, for example that has been cited today and I am very proud of | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
what Bass has done in this in these endeavors. Could the Minister... I | :39:24. | :39:26. | |
am very grateful to the Minister for the just and in the guidance, very | :39:27. | :39:32. | |
welcome, but I wonder if he could say when the guidance is likely to | :39:33. | :39:39. | |
be published and also when the Government, if it is the | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
Conservative government, might expect higher education institutions | :39:45. | :39:47. | |
to comply with the new obligations, because while smooth might not have | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
another general election for perhaps five years, there will be local | :39:52. | :39:57. | |
Government elections in May 2018 and it's my fervent hope that all | :39:58. | :40:03. | |
institutions would have a system in place by then. My Lords, I read a | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
rate my thanks and I look forward to working with the next Government to | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
ensure that maximum number of students registered to vote, so not | :40:12. | :40:14. | |
only their voices are heard, but their views are expressed in the | :40:15. | :40:20. | |
ballot box, thus enabling them to exert maximum influence that they | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
should in the Democratic life of this country. As it won't speak | :40:25. | :40:32. | |
again on this particular bill, I also think the way in which all | :40:33. | :40:35. | |
benches have cooperated and collaborated on this bill has been | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
extraordinary and very, very welcome. To be partisan and just for | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
a moment, I have to say a great thanks goes to my normal friend Lord | :40:44. | :40:48. | |
Stevenson and the support he is received from Molly Critchley. I | :40:49. | :40:50. | |
miss my noble friend will be stepping down from the front bench | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
shortly and I think he has done the most superb job am a notch as for | :40:56. | :40:58. | |
the Labour benches but for the House as a whole. I look forward to | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
working with him on the back benches. Thank you, my Lords. And I | :41:02. | :41:08. | |
very really add support, having been a staunch supporter of this | :41:09. | :41:11. | |
Amendment, and in trying to engage young people in the importance of | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
voting and elections? I think this is a very valuable step in pointing | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
out to enable them to get involved in the university level. Once again, | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
grateful for the Amendment which has come in from the Government. If I | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
may say, if we are trying to involve young people in voting, wouldn't it | :41:30. | :41:31. | |
be wonderful if we could now think of lowering the voting age to 16 to | :41:32. | :41:39. | |
allow more of them to do so? The Amendment in this motion was regards | :41:40. | :41:47. | |
to the appeals system is, I think, greatly improved, as my noble friend | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
Lord judge has said and I am delighted that this has happened, | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
because I think it is of vital importance in relation to the very, | :41:59. | :42:05. | |
very serious matters that the Office for Students has power to deal with. | :42:06. | :42:15. | |
My Lords, I want to thank the ministers and I include in this | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
particular thanks Lord Young for a reason which I will explain in a | :42:21. | :42:28. | |
moment, and also the Minister in the comments for the very kind way in | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
which various reactions of mine to this extremely important bill have | :42:34. | :42:39. | |
been handled. Lords, I want to mention one particular matter which | :42:40. | :42:48. | |
does not arise especially under this motion, but from my point of view, | :42:49. | :42:56. | |
it's rather important. When the noble Baroness Lady Brown raised the | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
issue with regards to the new power to search the headquarters of higher | :43:02. | :43:08. | |
education providers, she indicated that this new power was something | :43:09. | :43:16. | |
that the higher at education suppliers anticipated with some | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
apprehension. In response to that, my noble friend read out the | :43:21. | :43:30. | |
statutory requirements before such a war could be granted in schedule | :43:31. | :43:38. | |
five of the bill. And I ventured to suggest, I had listened to a lot of | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
this in and without, particularly talking myself, but on this | :43:44. | :43:46. | |
particular occasion it occurred to me that one of the assurances that | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
the academic community were entitled to get was that these particular | :43:52. | :43:57. | |
restrictions, which are quite powerful and important, would be | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
definitely the subject of consideration by the magistrate. And | :44:02. | :44:08. | |
I suggested that the magistrate should sign a document to that | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
effect. I got a letter almost immediately, which is still on the | :44:14. | :44:17. | |
website, to say that such a thing was unheard of and I thought, well, | :44:18. | :44:25. | |
in that case, it's 20 years since I handed over with confidence my | :44:26. | :44:31. | |
responsibilities for this part of what is now the Ministry of Justice | :44:32. | :44:41. | |
to my noble successor, so it is a long time since I dealt with this | :44:42. | :44:44. | |
particular thing directly. But that is what I was told. I thought, in | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
that case, the thing to do is to alter the words of the word to make | :44:50. | :44:52. | |
it clear that the war in carries that with that. And that was | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
objected to for all sorts of reasons, which are lordships may | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
remember, and some of them were put forward by my noble friend Lord | :45:02. | :45:09. | |
Young at the report stage. I felt rather strongly about it, as he | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
recognised, and he kindly said that he would consider it further at the | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
full report stage, which gave me an opportunity, which otherwise I | :45:19. | :45:20. | |
wouldn't have had, to raise the matter at report stage. I was still | :45:21. | :45:27. | |
very insistent on this because I couldn't see any objection to it and | :45:28. | :45:34. | |
I'm greatly obliged to the Minister in the comments, Ian Johnson, for | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
raging at the last minute that I would get a chance to deal directly | :45:39. | :45:44. | |
with the Ministry of Justice, from which the objections to my | :45:45. | :45:48. | |
amendments were coming. -- for arranging. In that afternoon, I was | :45:49. | :45:59. | |
able to meet the official in the department, the Ministry of Justice, | :46:00. | :46:03. | |
and that part of it for which I say I used to have long-ago | :46:04. | :46:10. | |
responsibility, and he eventually told me that in fact, the procedure | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
for dealing with warrants had now been altered by orders of the Lord | :46:15. | :46:23. | |
Chief Justice, particularly in criminal cases, so at the end of the | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
application for the war and, strangely enough, there is a place | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
for the magistrate to indicate whether or not he or she agrees that | :46:33. | :46:38. | |
the war and should be granted and if so what the reasons are for their | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
decision. And he said that he thought this was probably the | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
general tract is in relation to warrants, because this is not a | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
criminal warrant under this bill, in relation to warrants in the | :46:53. | :46:59. | |
magistrate court. Am I know about -- noble friend did in fact say that | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
that was the position when we came to move the motion on the third | :47:05. | :47:11. | |
reading. I want therefore to express my gratitude to the ministers and | :47:12. | :47:26. | |
also the team, the build team from the Department for Education, for | :47:27. | :47:29. | |
their kind treatment of me in connection to this and other matters | :47:30. | :47:36. | |
as well. But I do think that it is important that, where a ministry | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
other then the Minister directly responsible for the bill, gives the | :47:42. | :47:48. | |
advice to block an Amendment coming from somebody who, after all, is | :47:49. | :47:51. | |
thought of as a Government supporter, should be blocked, in a | :47:52. | :47:58. | |
way that depends on their expertise and for which, with all respect to | :47:59. | :48:06. | |
Mr Johnson's rate for righty of imminence, he wouldn't be | :48:07. | :48:08. | |
particularly interested in the magister 's courts procedure for a | :48:09. | :48:14. | |
warrant. So it's nothing really to do with him. It is similarly for my | :48:15. | :48:24. | |
nubile friend -- noble friend,, it is damaging way of damaging your | :48:25. | :48:31. | |
colleagues without apparently much responsibility and my qualifications | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
therefore for thanks in relation to the work that has been done behind | :48:37. | :48:42. | |
the scenes here is modified to an extent by that particular matter | :48:43. | :48:45. | |
which I think the ministers responsible for the bill have a | :48:46. | :48:53. | |
right to have it made clear that it was nothing to do with them and it's | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
come from a source for which they have only the responsibility of | :48:59. | :49:06. | |
being in the one Government. I was going to intervene on this point | :49:07. | :49:09. | |
because I think the case for excepting the amendments have been | :49:10. | :49:16. | |
made very strongly by Baroness were real and Lord judge, but this has | :49:17. | :49:22. | |
put me in mind of two things I thought we should share with the | :49:23. | :49:29. | |
House. First of all, the noble lord has been quite active on this bill | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
on a narrow issue and therefore I have got to know him better and he | :49:34. | :49:36. | |
kindly shared with me a speech he gave recently at a rather arcane | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
group of people who seem to be interested in the Minister does a | :49:41. | :49:46. | |
lot, a matter I'm sure the Lord goes to ever be, but the first time I | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
heard of it. They debate series important issues. His address was | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
about the quality of legislation going through your Lordship's house. | :49:55. | :50:00. | |
I recommended to all noble Lords, because I observed a little of what | :50:01. | :50:06. | |
he has said, and she has been... When the annals of this Parliament | :50:07. | :50:09. | |
are written up, I hope there is space for this little vignette of | :50:10. | :50:15. | |
persistence over every other aspect of life, which have resulted in a | :50:16. | :50:18. | |
terrific results. They didn't quite give the nuance that he thought he | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
was going to end up with that I just want to share that with the House | :50:23. | :50:24. | |
because there weren't many of us there late at night when this was | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
finally resolved, but it is worth bearing in mind. The Lord makes the | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
point that, very often in considering legislation, there is a | :50:36. | :50:41. | |
mentality that sits in on the building which is called the tyranny | :50:42. | :50:45. | |
of the bill, and the tyranny of the bill is an article of faith which is | :50:46. | :50:49. | |
that the bill must be right, and it must be right because the people who | :50:50. | :50:53. | |
put it together has spent most of their professional lives working on | :50:54. | :50:56. | |
this piece of legislation, particularly in the case of higher | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
education, they are not going to give up a,, let alone a word or a | :51:02. | :51:07. | |
phrase, without considerable resistance. Any praise avidly backed | :51:08. | :51:13. | |
legislation in both houses and get around that and I mention this point | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
because we found this a lot of times that the results that we are seeing | :51:18. | :51:23. | |
today, they weren't always... Perhaps I shouldn't have done, but I | :51:24. | :51:26. | |
did say because I mentioned it at the time and I thought of that, that | :51:27. | :51:29. | |
we were in a spirit of cooperation trying to get a better legislation. | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
It didn't feel like that at the time. Certainly not on day one of | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
the committee, when we had every chance to compromise on the issue, | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
the Minister offered the chance to take away the issue and look at it | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
every conceivable reason to say no every conceivable reason to say no | :51:48. | :51:50. | |
and I don't think that was to the benefit of the bill. But the point | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
that the Lord was making was that he was blocked at every attempt to get | :51:56. | :51:57. | |
this very sensible measure through, a measure which he is, he was too | :51:58. | :52:04. | |
kind to say it, but he knew a lot more about it than probably anybody | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
else on the planet, and they still said he was wrong, but he persisted | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
but and got it to the point where it was agreed, but it was agreed in a | :52:14. | :52:16. | |
slightly craven way, which is the point I want to make. The front | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
bench still resisted the need to amend the bill to reflect the know | :52:21. | :52:29. | |
-- noble lordLord, and they found a way to do it anyway. I'm not sure | :52:30. | :52:33. | |
that's the best way we make legislation, idly thought that with | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
you. -- I leave that thought with you. | :52:38. | :52:43. | |
My Lords I want to make a view brief comments in response to this debate. | :52:44. | :52:52. | |
Can start by thanking the noble and learned and Lord Lord Judge for his | :52:53. | :52:56. | |
kind comments and supporting government amendments. We welcome | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
his support and thank him and also Lord Lisvane for his work and | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
engagement this issue. I would also like to thank the noble Baroness | :53:07. | :53:12. | |
Lady Royal for her persistence and passionate commitment to the cause | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
of student electoral registration including as I said earlier at her | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
own university, the University of Bath. She asked me when the guidance | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
on student electoral registration would be published. Can I reassure | :53:27. | :53:31. | |
her that he ministerial guidance to the U F as will be assured shortly | :53:32. | :53:39. | |
after it is established. And its guidance to providers will be issued | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
in mid-2018 in preparation for the move to the new regulatory | :53:45. | :53:47. | |
frameworks are the sector will have the chance to express its views on | :53:48. | :53:51. | |
the regulatory framework during the public consultation this autumn. I | :53:52. | :53:57. | |
listened carefully to the comments made by my noble and learned and | :53:58. | :54:04. | |
friend, Lord Mackay. Can I say first of all that I thank him for his time | :54:05. | :54:09. | |
and expertise and engagement on the bill. He was obviously referring | :54:10. | :54:13. | |
specifically to the matter of the warrants. I would like to apologise | :54:14. | :54:20. | |
for any misunderstandings that arose through the process to say rather | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
than being drawn into further debate on the matter I hope he understands | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
that, although it was somewhat protracted, we as I say got there in | :54:31. | :54:35. | |
the end. With that, my Lords, I beg to move. That motion C be agreed to, | :54:36. | :54:45. | |
as many of the opinion is a content, the contrary not content, the | :54:46. | :54:51. | |
contents have it. Motion D moved formerly. The question is that | :54:52. | :54:57. | |
motion D be agreed to, those of that opinion is a content, the contrary | :54:58. | :55:01. | |
not content, the contents have it. Motion E, Viscount Younger. My | :55:02. | :55:10. | |
Lords, I beg to move motion E that the Lords to agree with the comment | :55:11. | :55:17. | |
in their - the Commons on the amendment. Our reforms are designed | :55:18. | :55:23. | |
to make it simply for high-quality providers to contribute to greater | :55:24. | :55:26. | |
student choice and ensure that our higher education sector remains | :55:27. | :55:32. | |
innovative and can respond to changing economic demands. We must | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
be clear that new providers cannot come at the price of lowering the | :55:38. | :55:40. | |
quality bar. We are committed to protecting the value of English | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
degrees and throughout the passage of the bill we have added to the | :55:45. | :55:47. | |
legislative protections to achieve this. At report stage in this house | :55:48. | :55:54. | |
we have tabled an amendment based on a proposal from the noble Baroness | :55:55. | :56:00. | |
Lady Woolf requiring the UFS to request advice from a relevant body | :56:01. | :56:07. | |
on quality standards before awarding powers or revoking them on the | :56:08. | :56:11. | |
grounds of quality of provision. The rule of the body would be similar to | :56:12. | :56:17. | |
that of the A 's CDP. The position we are putting in place will build | :56:18. | :56:24. | |
on the valuable work they have done over the years. For further strength | :56:25. | :56:30. | |
of this requirement for expert advice in particular this amendment | :56:31. | :56:33. | |
makes clear that if there's not a designated quality body to carry out | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
the role the committee that the UFS must establish to carry it out must | :56:39. | :56:41. | |
feature a majority of members who are not members of UFS. Additionally | :56:42. | :56:48. | |
in appointing those bodies, their advice must be informed that the | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
interest listed in the tours, this will ensure good information. This | :56:54. | :56:59. | |
amendment also makes it clear that the advice must include a view on | :57:00. | :57:02. | |
whether the provider under consideration can maintain quality | :57:03. | :57:08. | |
and standards, and in line with the arguments put forward by Lady Woolf, | :57:09. | :57:13. | |
it requires the UFS to notify the Secretary of State as as soon as | :57:14. | :57:16. | |
possible after it grants degree awarding powers to a provider who | :57:17. | :57:19. | |
has not previously delivered a degree course and validation | :57:20. | :57:24. | |
agreement. So let me be clear that, is the case at the moment, I would | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
expect the Secretary of State's guidance to the UFS on degree | :57:29. | :57:33. | |
awarding powers to continue to require that a provider's | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
eligibility be reviewed if there was any change in its circumstances such | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
as a murder or a change of ownership. The UFS has powers under | :57:42. | :57:47. | |
the bill to remove degree awarding powers from a provider whether our | :57:48. | :57:50. | |
concerns as to the quality and standards of its higher education | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
provision following such change. I can confirm that we expect the UFS | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
to seek advice from the relevant body on any such quality concerns | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
before taking the step of revocation. My Lords, I beg to move. | :58:03. | :58:08. | |
The question is that motion E B agreed to. I would like to first of | :58:09. | :58:15. | |
all take the opportunity to thank the government and noble minister | :58:16. | :58:21. | |
and Minister for higher education sincerely for listening so carefully | :58:22. | :58:27. | |
and patiently to the arguments that I and many others put forward on | :58:28. | :58:34. | |
these issues. I would like to follow other noble Lords by saying that | :58:35. | :58:43. | |
while this has been a grind all parts of the house have found | :58:44. | :58:45. | |
something to discuss and agree and in that sense it has been, I would | :58:46. | :58:51. | |
not say enjoyable but certainly an educational and ultimately a | :58:52. | :58:54. | |
positive process. I would like to repeat that I appreciate the time | :58:55. | :58:57. | |
that everyone in the Lords is put into this and very much appreciate | :58:58. | :59:05. | |
the work put in by the team. This clause which I am very happy to see | :59:06. | :59:10. | |
moving towards the statute book does seem to be slightly ill understood | :59:11. | :59:16. | |
perhaps outside this chamber, certainly outside this building. I | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
think it might be worth my while to reiterate some of what I think is | :59:21. | :59:23. | |
important about it. I would be grateful if the minister would let | :59:24. | :59:27. | |
me and the house know if he disagrees with anything I am about | :59:28. | :59:31. | |
to say, not too slowly. It seems to me that one of the major reasons | :59:32. | :59:36. | |
this bill is so important is that it sets out what is happening in the | :59:37. | :59:38. | |
sector could, possibly for decades to come. And that is a reason why we | :59:39. | :59:45. | |
have to take account, both of whether it can provide innovation | :59:46. | :59:50. | |
and new ideas and allow the sector to move but also whether it's going | :59:51. | :59:57. | |
to provide guarantees of quality and standards and protect students, many | :59:58. | :00:04. | |
of whom take out large loans, and the whole country against what is | :00:05. | :00:11. | |
always possible, which is that some institutions and some people will | :00:12. | :00:12. | |
not have the interests of the not have the interests of the | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
country and the sector at heart. And I do think that innovation is a very | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
important part of it and I would like to also take this opportunity | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
to welcome in this house the fact that the government has recently | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
given some money to the new university being established in | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
Herefordshire which I think is important because of the role it | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
will play in helping to develop engineering skills and to work with | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
small businesses and supply chains and I just think that's the sort of | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
institution we need many more of it and I am really pleased that the | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
government has given its support. But I think it is also worth | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
remembering that one of the things that has bothered us very much in | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
thinking how this bill should go forward is the knowledge that it's | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
only too easy to create a situation in which institutions arise and gain | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
access to public funds, whose existence is very hard to justify | :01:07. | :01:14. | |
and can do enormous harm. And it is not just this country although the | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
US has given us the largest and most catastrophic bankruptcy is leaving | :01:20. | :01:22. | |
students stranded. It's after all not long ago that the Home Office | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
was moving to investigate and shut down higher institution | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
establishments in this country which were... This part of the bill has | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
always been enormously important. And I am extremely happy because it | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
seems to me that one of the things that this clause does is instituted | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
quality assurance process which focuses the whole attention of the | :01:46. | :01:52. | |
office the students on a number of critical issues when this is | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
granting awarding powers and which also clarifies the importance of | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
independent advice from outside institutions. Again, this is always | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
important because an institution creates its own understandings and | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
the world. And I think that the the world. And I think that the | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
potential strengthening and improvement of the advice which the | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
UFS will get from outside which will build on the cue a A but will | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
potentially be more independent and therefore will be both an additional | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
safeguard and add more to the process, is very, very often. And | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
the other thing about this clause is that it clarifies the general public | :02:34. | :02:41. | |
the way in which the government envisages new institutions coming | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
through and it clearly envisages two pathways, that many people will come | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
through validation which is a process which is has grown over the | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
years, but if an institution is to get degree awarding powers from day | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
one, and this is something of which the Secretary of State must be | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
aware, noble Lord Willetts earlier pointed out that anything that goes | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
wrong tends to rant on the desk of the Secretary of State. What seems | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
to me important here is that we have an extra element, not of formal | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
accountability but something that will bring into the process is both | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
a clear ability for the Secretary of State to create a new institution | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
which has to be awarding powers because this is seen as something | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
they are capable of from day one but also something in which this process | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
has to be public and one which cannot slide through. Unobserved. So | :03:35. | :03:42. | |
really I think this is an area in which we have made enormous progress | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
and maybe all this would have happened anywhere but I am extremely | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
happy to see it on the face of the bill. I'd like to finish once more | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
by expressing my gratitude to everyone who has worked on the bill | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
and has listened to our concerns and my appreciation of all the comments | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
and information and hard work that the colleagues in the House across | :04:04. | :04:11. | |
all benches but it would. And I welcome this amendment. I would like | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
to endorse everything that the noble lady has said. I want on behalf of | :04:18. | :04:26. | |
the House to thank her for luck hard work and effort she has put into | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
securing these changes. This part of the bill in its original form was | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
the one that gave cause to a great deal of worry, for me the most | :04:37. | :04:44. | |
worrying of all because in my view it threatened the reputation of | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
higher education, not only in this country but overseas as well. I | :04:49. | :04:55. | |
think we are now in a much better place, the only thing that I would | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
ask is that there is some monitoring of how it works in practice. I think | :05:01. | :05:07. | |
it is very important that there should be some evaluation to make | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
absolutely clear to the higher education sector and those who might | :05:14. | :05:15. | |
want to enter it that there are going to be rigorous tests of both | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
quality and standards before any quality and standards before any | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
institution can have degree awarding powers and access to grants and | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
loans through the system of financial support that we have. | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
Having said that, I am grateful to the government and the Minister for | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
bringing forward this amendment because I think it is a huge | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
improvement to the bill compared with what we had originally. I moved | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
briefly to intervene to say that at the end of the directions on this | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
important aspect of the bill, I think we ended with a more rigorous, | :05:56. | :06:03. | |
more transparent and more demanding regime for alternative providers in | :06:04. | :06:05. | |
higher education and we have ever had before. I regretted that it was | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
not possible to get legislation during the previous parliament that | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
would have gone alongside the initiatives we took that we | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
certainly have a very significant regulatory regime in place now. | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
The Baroness has been one of the people pressing for this I would | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
question one point she has said, she said that the Home Office had closed | :06:30. | :06:37. | |
down lots of higher education institutions because they were bogus | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
and didn't need proper standards. I think those were colleges, which you | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
can call yourself a college and there were people getting into | :06:46. | :06:48. | |
Britain because they said they were studying at colleges, but there has | :06:49. | :06:57. | |
always been a regime for validating degree awarding powers. I think | :06:58. | :07:00. | |
would be dangerous if we get in this House that there have been lots of | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
bogus higher education institutions, which I don't think has been the | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
case. The problem was colleges. And even there, the Home Office did get | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
occasionally over exuberant. At least one college which won a Queens | :07:14. | :07:20. | |
award was subsequently closed down. They were tried to stop people from | :07:21. | :07:27. | |
coming to study a vocational qualification in a college, but | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
setting that point aside, we now have a very rigorous regime and I | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
hope we will now see the spirit of what Baroness Wolf said practice, | :07:35. | :07:41. | |
which is that we need innovation in higher education in this country and | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
although it is great when existing providers innovate, we know in many | :07:46. | :07:47. | |
sectors the best way to get innovation is for new people coming | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
in doing things differently, but I hope we can all agree, especially | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
with his regime in place, we can give a very warm welcome to new | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
higher education is attuned to this country. From these benches, we | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
would agree as well that this is the result of the work, we have got a | :08:09. | :08:14. | |
much better regulatory framework, rigorous tests for degree awarding | :08:15. | :08:21. | |
powers are important. I was very much taken with the Minister's | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
comments when he said there should be no lowering of quality in | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
protecting the value of university degrees. There are private | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
providers, the majority of private knowledge do a fantastic job. But | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
let us not kid ourselves that there are still some other colleges, and I | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
would use the bogus colleges, which, with these new powers, these new | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
regulations, will not carrying on letting the quality of our | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
university degrees down and they will not let university students | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
down. It cannot be right, for example, that a student is enrolled | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
to do a degree course which is validated by one of our | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
universities, the only requirement is one GCSE. That cannot be right in | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
our higher education system. So these new powers, from what the | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
Minister has said, will ensure that we can be proud of all of our | :09:16. | :09:23. | |
private providers as well. I echo much of what has already been said, | :09:24. | :09:26. | |
particularly the introductory remarks about the noble Baroness | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
Baroness Wolf, who has inviting this corner we have been supporting her | :09:32. | :09:34. | |
all the way, I'm glad we have reached the point where we are all | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
very happy with what we have got to. The main focus of the amendments | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
report and also of the ones that are report and also of the ones that are | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
now being presented by the Government in Leo, are about the | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
ongoing arrangements in universities and colleges, sorry, universities, | :09:53. | :10:02. | |
in order to provide higher education providers to provide higher degree | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
level politicians. The problem with what happens when eight existing | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
provider is taken over by merger or purchase, still I think needs a | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
little bit of care and concern because there is a fear within the | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
sector that this might well become a feature, perhaps an unwelcome | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
feature, not against new institutions. We always said we | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
would support those, we'll want them to be proper institutions, with | :10:26. | :10:28. | |
procedures and processes in place, and on that basis would | :10:29. | :10:30. | |
that. But if there is an issue where that. But if there is an issue where | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
a commercial imperative rather than academic imperative, I wonder if the | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
Minister can make some comments about what he anticipates will be | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
the arrangements should that merger or takeover be in play? | :10:44. | :10:51. | |
My Lords, I would like to start by echoing the thoughts made by the | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, by thinking the Baroness Lady Wolf in | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
safeguarding the quality of English degrees and also her engagement in | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
the bill's overall, which I may not have said so far. I would like to | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
agree with the noble Baroness about the importance of diversity in the | :11:13. | :11:15. | |
sector and agree that new providers, such as the new bottle on technology | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
and engineering, will serve the interests of students and wider | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
society well. The noble Baroness Lady Blackstone and board stories | :11:26. | :11:27. | |
spoke about the important point about all of the of standards, which | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
has been a theme throughout this bill. I would like to agree with | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
them that we must maintain quality and standards in the sector and the | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
bill is designed to do just that. Our Amendment further restrictions | :11:42. | :11:43. | |
the bill's provisions in that respect, which are help the House | :11:44. | :11:51. | |
now is behind. The noble lord Lord Stevenson, at the very end of his | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
brief comments, asked about change of circumstances, in other words, | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
what happens every degree power older is sold to someone with no | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
experience, will there be a review? And if they were sold to a body with | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
no track record, we would expect their eligibility to continue to | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
hold degree awarding powers, but it would be subject to a full review. | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
That review would be implicit. I would like to finish by thanking my | :12:20. | :12:26. | |
noble friend Lord will it for his engagement throughout the bill's | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
passage. The bill, if I may say so, builds on his work as minister and | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
the proposals for his original White Paper of 2011, headed students at | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
the heart of the system. My words, I beg to move. The question is that | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
motion he be agreed to. As many are of that, say content, not content | :12:48. | :12:56. | |
say not. The contents have it. The question is that motion as it be | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
agreed to. As many are of that opinion is a content, to the | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
contrary not content, the contents have it. Motion G. My Lords, I beg | :13:05. | :13:13. | |
to move most motion G that this House does not insist on Amendment | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
156 and you agree with the comments in their commitments 1568, 156 B and | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
156 C in Leo. I welcome this chance to discuss what's more international | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
students will stop we have heard some of the most passionate debates | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
in this House. Let me just say that the Government welcomes genuine | :13:36. | :13:37. | |
international students who come to study in the United Kingdom on | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
Monday enhanced our educational institutions both financially and | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
culturally, the in Everest the experience of domestic students and | :13:48. | :13:49. | |
they become important ambassadors for the United Kingdom in later | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
life. For these reasons, we have no plans to target or reduce the scale | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
of student migration to the United Kingdom and, as I have said before, | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
and as a house full of heard, we have no plans to cap the number of | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
genuine students you can come to the UK to study, nor to limit an | :14:07. | :14:13. | |
institution's ability to recruit a genuine international students based | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
on its TEF rating or any other basis. Therefore, I do not believe | :14:17. | :14:23. | |
that the Amendment is desirable. Discussed in this House on this | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
issue has provided us with an important opportunity to reflect on | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
the message we send out to the world on the welcome that international | :14:32. | :14:33. | |
students receive when they apply to study in the UK. We want or promote | :14:34. | :14:39. | |
this offer and make sure it is understood and communicated and I | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
would like to set out what the new duty as. Firstly, the duty will | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
extend the information publication duty on the designated data body on | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
the Office for Students so it explicitly covers what information | :14:53. | :14:59. | |
would be helpful to current work respect of international students | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
and the registered higher education providers back recurred them are | :15:03. | :15:05. | |
thinking of doing so. The new duty will also require consideration of | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
publication of information on international student numbers. My | :15:12. | :15:14. | |
Lords, this goes further than ever before to ensure that international | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
students get the information that they need about our offer. Alongside | :15:18. | :15:24. | |
this, we believe we need a campaign to raise awareness and that is why, | :15:25. | :15:27. | |
in tandem, we are refreshing our international engagement strategy. | :15:28. | :15:39. | |
We will seek reviews on, we will distribute there are embassies | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
overseas and the British Council as well as universities themselves. | :15:44. | :15:45. | |
This will ensure that the right messages yet to the right places. My | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
Lords, we have a good story to tell and we are keen that is told. We are | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
remains one of the best places in remains one of the best places in | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
the world for research and innovation. Let me assure you that | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
the UK research and innovation will continue to fund an extensive range | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
of international collaborations, directly facilitating partnerships | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
between UK research establishments and their international | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
counterparts. We expect the UK are I board members and UK are I itself to | :16:19. | :16:24. | |
take a clear role in fostering collaboration internationally. We | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
have already included the need to take an international perspective in | :16:28. | :16:33. | |
the job specification of the UKRI board, which is currently being | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
recruited. To underline this, I will confirm that we will ask UKRI to set | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
out in its annual report what work it has undertaken to foster and | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
support such collaborations. My Lords, I beg to move. I would like | :16:46. | :16:59. | |
first to respond to the noble lord Minister's opening statement on this | :17:00. | :17:00. | |
motion and thank him for some of the motion and thank him for some of the | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
things that were set, which picked up one of seems that is in the | :17:05. | :17:11. | |
Amendment that he is proposing to be rejected. I think it is a great pity | :17:12. | :17:14. | |
that they are not on the face of the bill, but he has made some helpful | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
remarks there. I would say in relation to the Government's | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
Amendment that is being moved, that I think it shows yet again that we | :17:23. | :17:32. | |
are slight cross purposes over this. This is not a statistical matter. Of | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
course as to the six enter into it, but is not basically a statistical | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
matter. It is about to be public policy purposes we take with regard | :17:42. | :17:52. | |
to overseas students and so even the improved, suggesting improved ways | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
of statistically analysing overseas students, they don't really address | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
what my Amendment was meant to address. I just want to speak | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
therefore, on I hope you will forgive me for not saying anymore | :18:06. | :18:08. | |
about his Amendment, which I have no objection to at all, but which I | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
don't think actually answers the problems which my Amendment and the | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
Amendment which was moved I the Baroness Royal, the Baroness garden | :18:20. | :18:27. | |
and Lord Miles was the main thrust of which was, to bring an end to | :18:28. | :18:35. | |
what I would regard as a bearing practice of treating overseas hire | :18:36. | :18:42. | |
education students for Public policy purposes as long-term migrants and | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
that, alas, will continue. That Amendment in this House was carried | :18:46. | :18:53. | |
in the last month by a majority of 94 omicron from all groups in this | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
House. So I'm afraid I do speak with deeper Gretz, tinged with some | :19:00. | :19:06. | |
bitterness, at the summary rejection of this Amendment. If the bill | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
before us had followed a normal course, I believe, although I cannot | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
prove this of coarse, I believe that summaries more compromise would have | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
been breached either in the other place where there was substantial | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
support for the Amendment, or through a negotiation between the | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
two houses. The washup process, which we are busy completing now, | :19:30. | :19:37. | |
but to a premature end any such possibility and the fact that the | :19:38. | :19:43. | |
Government felt it necessary to state that, if this Amendment was | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
not brought, they would kill the whole bill, sheds a pretty odd | :19:48. | :19:54. | |
lights on their priorities and on their intransigence will stop | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
altogether, I suggest a rather shabby business. Now, ceasing to | :20:00. | :20:07. | |
treat overseas hire education students for public policy purposes | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
as long-term migrants is not only, I would suggest, a rational choice and | :20:12. | :20:18. | |
one which has, which the chief competitors of this country in the | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
market for overseas students, mainly the US, Australia and Canada, have | :20:24. | :20:30. | |
already adopted, it is also... Has a wide degree of cross party support | :20:31. | :20:33. | |
from a whole series of parliamentary select committees from both houses, | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
most recently just this week from the education committee in the other | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
place. A recent survey by universities and UK shows that a | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
large majority of those polled do not recurred oversea students as | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
economic migrants, do not consider that they contribute to the | :20:55. | :20:57. | |
immigration problems which are the focus of so much public debate at | :20:58. | :20:59. | |
this stage in this country. And the fall in numbers of overseas | :21:00. | :21:11. | |
applications which we are seeing at the moment amply demonstrates how we | :21:12. | :21:18. | |
are already losing market share, and undermining the future validity of a | :21:19. | :21:27. | |
crucial part of our society and our economy, our universities. This | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
morning I listened with great interest to the Foreign Secretary | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
replying to a question on this on the Today programme. He made most of | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
the points that I have just made. So I have no quarrel with what the | :21:41. | :21:47. | |
Foreign Secretary said, merely with what the government is doing. A bad | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
choice has been made in my view and no convincing rationale for making | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
that choice has been forthcoming from the government. In conclusion I | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
would say this, the problem will not go away. And the rejection will not | :22:02. | :22:12. | |
be the end of the story. The damage that this system of treating | :22:13. | :22:21. | |
students as economic migrants will continue to inflict on our | :22:22. | :22:28. | |
universities and soft power assets in the decades ahead. I believe we | :22:29. | :22:37. | |
will need to come back to this issue when the government brings forward | :22:38. | :22:39. | |
as it stated in its white Paper on the Great Repeal bill, comes forward | :22:40. | :22:48. | |
with post-Brexit legislation. I would hope that a period of | :22:49. | :22:55. | |
reflection will bring wise counsel and the realisation that predict | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
victory is like this one are a kind with which we could well do without. | :22:59. | :23:16. | |
My Lords, I would like to briefly congratulate Lord Hannay on the | :23:17. | :23:19. | |
energy he has put into scrutinising the bill, the debates we have had | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
have made it clear that on all sides of the House week support legitimate | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
students coming from overseas to study both because it enhances the | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
academic experience of British students and is good for overseas | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
students and is a great British export. Signalling again that the | :23:37. | :23:46. | |
policy remains to attract legitimate overseas students was more welcoming | :23:47. | :23:53. | |
than Hannay accepted that Lord Hannay accepted although I | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
understand why he made his reservations, he says statistics are | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
less important than policy but I think that the point we had a moment | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
ago from the minister about these new statistics does have | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
considerable potential value. Aside from the general arguments one point | :24:12. | :24:18. | |
about the debate is a genuine empirical disagreement about how | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
many students from abroad overstay in this country. A lot of the debate | :24:22. | :24:27. | |
is shaped by a view that we have a problem with a lot of other stayers. | :24:28. | :24:34. | |
If there is such a problem we need to tighten the regime, if not, if it | :24:35. | :24:41. | |
can be established authoritatively that there is no such problem I | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
think that would be a significant contribution to the debate and the | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
statistics at the moment are very unreliable. If someone comes to | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
study and tells someone doing one of these surveys they are studying and | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
then stays on to work for time and leaves and answers the question when | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
they leave, what have you been doing, and they say, working, they | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
count as a leaving worker, not a student. If someone comes to study | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
thinking they are here for more than a year but end up because many | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
masters courses are advertised as your bid you can complete them in 11 | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
months, they leave, having been in Britain for 11 months, they do not | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
count as one of those students departing. There are lots of | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
problems like this in the statistics. They have proved a bane | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
in the debate about overseas students and their numbers. I very | :25:35. | :25:37. | |
much hope that the important initiative which the Minister has | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
announced today, and which was discussed in the other house | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
yesterday, he enables us to get to the bottom of those empirical | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
questions that would be an important contribution to the debate about the | :25:51. | :25:52. | |
minister can confirm that those type of questions will be within the | :25:53. | :25:59. | |
scope of the exercise and we will learn more about it. I also hope | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
that, thinking of all the time we have spent on attracting overseas | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
students to this country that we might briefly remind the government | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
of the importance of encouraging British students to study abroad. | :26:14. | :26:20. | |
And dare one say it, if they were to study abroad for more than a year it | :26:21. | :26:23. | |
would reduce net migration, not that that's the main reason for promoting | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
it. But when one looks at half a million students going from abroad | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
to study in Britain and 30,000 British students studying abroad | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
especially if we are to be a dynamic global presence even post-Brexit we | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
do need to do better at promoting and encouraging students to go | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
abroad and one way to do that is to make it easier for them to take out | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
loans to finance this study abroad and I hope that is something we will | :26:49. | :26:55. | |
look at. For my last intervention I would like briefly to congratulate | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
the ministerial team that has brought this bill to a conclusion. | :27:02. | :27:08. | |
Viscount Younger has been courteous throughout the debate. Jo Johnson | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
has been extraordinarily diligent in spending time in this chamber, | :27:13. | :27:21. | |
observing our debate. This is a very substantial piece of legislation, we | :27:22. | :27:27. | |
only legislate... This legislation finally puts in place regulatory | :27:28. | :27:34. | |
regime that matches higher education in Britain. We could not have | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
carried on with the old grant giving body an informal regulator using the | :27:38. | :27:45. | |
power of the purse to rhetoric the sector, this is a better, more | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
transparent, rules -based system. I think our debates in this house on | :27:52. | :27:57. | |
all sides, it is clear that we care passionately about the autonomy of | :27:58. | :28:04. | |
higher education institutes, the new provisions we have been debating | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
today and hands that autonomy. I have to say, looking back, one of my | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
regrets, thinking of this debate, is, while we intended to look at | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
this from an English perspective from one of the conversations I have | :28:18. | :28:25. | |
heard from vice chancellors, it is clear to me were the biggest threat | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
to our autonomy rise, it is the relationship between the Scottish | :28:31. | :28:33. | |
Government and its universities, if I may say so, it is far more | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
intrusive, far more overbearing than anything that would be acceptable in | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
England. And sometimes we have had an English minister with English | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
teaching responsibilities facing challenges about autonomy for which | :28:50. | :28:56. | |
he is not actually responsible. I hope we will be as avid in | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
scrutinising and protecting the autonomy of Scottish universities | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
which matters enormously in Scotland and more widely. We have a better | :29:05. | :29:11. | |
regulatory regime. We have spoken up for autonomy. And also very | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
significantly, the focus on teaching has reminded us of the importance of | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
the education experience in the University and after so much | :29:23. | :29:28. | |
attention it is excellent that we have spent such time focusing on | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
teaching. Therefore I would like to thank the Minister is, thank their | :29:33. | :29:35. | |
built-in for the way in which they have engaged with many of us as we | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
have had questions to make sense of specific proposals and try to engage | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
with them and indeed this has been a cross-party debate. We've had | :29:46. | :29:52. | |
excellent interventions from experts in crossbenchers, people who work in | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
and understand how education works and that is enormously enhanced our | :29:58. | :30:00. | |
debate. We have heard from opposition benches and I agree that | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
Lord Stevenson has made a very important contribution from the | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
opposition front bench and from the Lib Dem benches I had to remind | :30:09. | :30:11. | |
myself sometimes that we had worked on this together in coalition! And | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
some of the measures now proving so controversial could trace their | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
origins to a government in which I think there was even the Secretary | :30:21. | :30:23. | |
of State that I worked with who belonged to a certain party | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
opposite! But I think all parties have worked together on this and I | :30:29. | :30:31. | |
think we can be proud of the bill now going forward. My Lords, if I | :30:32. | :30:37. | |
may just follow the noble Lord, Lord Willets. In echoing so much of what | :30:38. | :30:44. | |
he said. But I want to start with what the Prime Minister said when | :30:45. | :30:51. | |
she announced the election and she referred to the unelected House of | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
Lords. My Lords, this unelected House of Lords is at its best when | :30:58. | :31:04. | |
it does what it has done in this bill. This is probably one of the | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
most amended bills in the history of Parliament with over 500 amendments. | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
It is because of the expertise that exists in this has across the board, | :31:14. | :31:19. | |
depth and breadth of expertise that no chamber anywhere in the world | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
comes close to buy a factor of maybe ten. For me universities Minister | :31:25. | :31:29. | |
has just spoken. Chancellors of universities, vice chancellors of | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
universities, former vice chancellors of universities at | :31:34. | :31:35. | |
Cambridge, head of Oxbridge colleges and I could go on. Where in the | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
world would you get that and we have had it in this bill. And I'd like to | :31:40. | :31:45. | |
thank the global Lord the Minister Viscount Younger for always being | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
polite and decent and for having listened. It may not be where many | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
others want to be but there has been a lot of movement and the government | :31:56. | :32:05. | |
seen a minister so insidious in attending stages of this bill. And | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
it shows visibly that he is listening. I'd like to thank the | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
noble Lord Lord Hannay for his initiative, he is a former | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
Chancellor of the University of Birmingham where I am proud to be | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
Chancellor today. My Lords at every stage of this bill normally you are | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
not meant to repeat things come you can't make a second reading speech | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
later in a bill. But here there's been a new information and new | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
reports coming out at every stage. So for example and EU UK report | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
revealed that international students, the contribution is much | :32:42. | :32:47. | |
higher than we had ever thought. We quoted ?14 billion, it's actually | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
?26 billion a year. New information to add to what Lord temp max three | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
was trying to do with this amendment. And on top of that the | :32:57. | :33:04. | |
education committee's report on extending opportunities for higher | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
education dated April 25, my lords. Before I go further this unanimous | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
consensus around the country, little known in this house when we won this | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
amendment to close to a hundred votes, that international students | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
should not be included in the not migration figures. The National | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
Union of Students have said as long as they are included in the net | :33:28. | :33:31. | |
migration to districts policies that adversely affect them owing to | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
governmental desire to reduce levels of immigration will only exacerbate. | :33:37. | :33:38. | |
And then they said that the government's abject failure to offer | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
anything substantial and removing international students from net | :33:44. | :33:46. | |
migration targets is, in their words, outrageous. There's immense | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
support for doing so from cross-party parliamentarians, from | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
UK students and from the general public. It is not acceptable that | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
the government continues to ignore this support. So my Lords I come to | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
the report that no one has spoken about, of the House of Commons | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
education committee and their report, published just now, 25th of | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
April. In it they have an entire section on international students | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
and the migration target. They say clearly that as far as we all know | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
this target of 100,000 still exists and yet overall net migration we all | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
know as 273,000, that's the latest figure. Government always gives of | :34:29. | :34:35. | |
removing international students from the figures is, UN rules means we | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
have to include them and treat them as immigrants. My Lords, yes, those | :34:40. | :34:44. | |
are the UN rules. And the government's about answer is always, | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
there's no cap to number of international students, any number | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
welcome. My lords it is a perception that is created by continuing to | :34:55. | :34:56. | |
include them and treat them as immigrants that is the danger. And | :34:57. | :35:03. | |
the Home Secretary and the Tory party conference spoke about | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
possibly reducing the number of international students and that is | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
scary. It's a message that goes out to the outside world. And the | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
Commons education committee said that the majority of their written | :35:16. | :35:18. | |
evidence and witnesses at their meetings were very clear that | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
international students should be removed from the net migration and | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
it would help offset the risks to higher education from leaving the | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
EU. In fact their evidence was unanimous, saying that international | :35:33. | :35:35. | |
students were positive force for education. ?25.8 billion ago, | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
creating over 200,000 jobs. Contributing to the richness of our | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
universities as well as the UK's soft power. And then it is poll | :35:47. | :35:53. | |
after poll, my lords. The contrast poll after the referendum, said, | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
said only 24% of the public thought international students were | :35:59. | :36:01. | |
immigrants. And there was only a 2% difference when split into the Leave | :36:02. | :36:08. | |
25% and the Remained 23%. So whether you are a Brexiteer or a remainder, | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
people don't think international students are immigrants. | :36:14. | :36:19. | |
My Lords, other countries, competitor countries, have targets | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
to increase the number of international students. The demand | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
for countries like India for studying abroad is increasing at 8% | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
a year and yet the NUS poll found that slightly half of overseas | :36:34. | :36:36. | |
students thought that the British Government was either not welcoming | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
or not welcoming at all to international students and there are | :36:42. | :36:48. | |
half as many Indian students today, or 2015, as it was in 2010. But in | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
Canada and Germany, it is growing by 8% a year. This is why, please | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
answer this question, why is it that, with the UK's main competitors | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
for international students, the United States of America, Canada and | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
Australia, all categorized international students as temporary | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
migrants rather than permanent immigrants? Why can't we do the | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
same? What are we scared of? And then the statistics that the noble | :37:17. | :37:23. | |
Lords spoke of, the Minister spoke of, what statistics him a my Lords? | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
The statistics are bogus because they are based on the international | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
passage survey. There are some estimates that 90,000 international | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
students overstay, other estimates of 40,000. And yet they are our | :37:39. | :37:45. | |
supposedly a report, eight Home Office commission report that shows | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
only 1% of international sins overstay their visas, according to | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
the Times. That would be 1500. At this report is not being released. | :37:54. | :37:59. | |
Tell us why this report is not being released and this is supposedly | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
based on new exit checks that the Government has. My Lords, I have | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
been a lone voice in this Parliament and I feel like a lone voice in this | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
country, asking the Government to bring back physical, visible exit | :38:14. | :38:19. | |
checks at all our ports and airports and borders. The Prime Minister Tony | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
Blair took them away in 1998, it is negligent from a security point of | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
view, negligent from illegal immigration point of view, negligent | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
from the ability to count the number of international sins coming in and | :38:35. | :38:37. | |
out of the country. Every passport, EU and non-EU should be scheduled | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
this country, every passport should be scanned when people leave the | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
country. Then we would know the correct statistics. Why can't the | :38:47. | :38:49. | |
Government implement this straightaway? So, my Lords, I | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
conclude the committee said that over the last few years six | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
parliamentary committees have recommended the removal of students | :38:59. | :39:01. | |
from the net migration target with opinions at the highest level. It | :39:02. | :39:08. | |
was spoken about were started, I believe even Liam Fox, they all | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
believe that the international students should not be treated as | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
immigrants and removed from the net migration figures. My Lords, | :39:18. | :39:23. | |
Margaret Thatcher was famously known as, this lady is not for turning. | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
Well, the Prime Minister, by continually saying there would be no | :39:29. | :39:35. | |
election till 2020, is I think, this lady is for turning. So why, why is | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
she not listening to us? Why, because this is such a | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
disappointment, this is ruining the reputation of our country, other | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
universities, of our economy. My Lords, perception becomes reality. | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
It didn't need to be in this bill, my Lords, the Government of Prime | :39:56. | :39:58. | |
Minister can still do this unilaterally and removed | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
international student from the net migration figures. And I would | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
remind the Prime Minister and the Government that, it is better to | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
fail doing the right thing than to succeed doing the wrong thing. My | :40:12. | :40:19. | |
Lords, I will not attempt to emulate the Lord by giving a full speech, | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
but I would like to make a couple of brief points. I strongly supported | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
the noble lord Handley when he introduced his Amendment and have | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
spoken many times on the subject in your Lordship's house. I deeply | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
regret the fact that the Government has not felt able to accept his | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
Amendment and committed to the other place. I echo everything that has | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
been said about the understanding, the capacity for listening, both of | :40:50. | :40:58. | |
the Minister of your Lordship's house and Joe Johnson, but I think | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
it is a pity that an opportunity has been lost. I'm sure we will return | :41:02. | :41:10. | |
to the subject as the noble lord said in a future Immigration Bill. | :41:11. | :41:16. | |
But although I welcome what the Government has said, or what the | :41:17. | :41:19. | |
Minister has said today, and what is in the Commons Amendment before us, | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
I don't think it does go far enough and I think there is going to be | :41:24. | :41:30. | |
real interest in how the Government is able to produce good statistics. | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
My Lords, it is 35 years ago almost to the day when a female -- famous | :41:36. | :41:43. | |
BBC reporter from the Falklands said, we counted them all out and be | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
counted them all in. Well, we need to start doing that with students | :41:48. | :41:55. | |
and in all students. My Lords, however gently, it damages are | :41:56. | :42:02. | |
reputation as a place where, all over the world, students at | :42:03. | :42:08. | |
undergraduate and postgraduate levels can feel welcome. The more we | :42:09. | :42:14. | |
can do to achieve that the better and we must do everything we can to | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
make sure there is no input is at the Terrance. My Lords, I am sorry | :42:19. | :42:25. | |
that, after a very good morning where the Government has made some | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
really good concessions which we are all extremely grateful for, this | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
particular subject is not as great as it should be. -- the concession | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
on the subject. I hope my noble friend of the front bench will take | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
note of that and I hope that we will come back before too long with a | :42:44. | :42:51. | |
reinforced Government front bench and a new determination to accept | :42:52. | :42:58. | |
the logic of the Amendment. Can I strongly support the noble lord's | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
Amendment and indoors which everything the noble lord has just | :43:04. | :43:09. | |
said. We were reminded of the days of Coalition, when I was his | :43:10. | :43:12. | |
opposite number in this House, and I remember the debates that went on | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
between the secretary of State for this and the Home Secretary and on | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
this particular topic where there was, he could never get any movement | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
on seeing the logic colony, and what baffles dairy many of us is that the | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
Government reiterates that there was no cap on genuine international | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
students, and then they say I'm a we will count them as migrants and we | :43:34. | :43:36. | |
are determined to reduce the number of migrants. It is that sequence | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
which makes it so incomprehensible that the Government can't see how | :43:42. | :43:44. | |
very unwelcoming it is to put those things together. We do find it | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
completely baffling that we are not getting any movement on this. We | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
recognise it as an issue that is probably outside the departmental | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
brief of the Minister, but I think I would echo the voices that have been | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
said already that we really do hope that very soon there will be | :44:02. | :44:04. | |
movement on this. The noble lord always speaks with great passion and | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
eloquence on the subject with evidence and with the facts behind | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
him. My Lords, I think this is probably the last time that I shall | :44:14. | :44:17. | |
speak in this bill, so I would like to reiterate that very sincere | :44:18. | :44:24. | |
thanks to the Minister... I shouldn't be getting that wrong at | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
the stage. And to the Minister Joe Johnson, to the build team and the | :44:29. | :44:31. | |
other colleagues who have actually been so helpful to us on what has | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
turned out to be a very long drawn out discussion on this bill. And the | :44:36. | :44:41. | |
Amendment switch of come through today, I think have already improved | :44:42. | :44:47. | |
the bill we have before us. It would obviously have been lovely if we | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
could've had all her amendments, as I said before, but we do recognise | :44:52. | :44:54. | |
that we have done a very good job in making this bill a whole lot better | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
than it was before. I. I can I also echo the things noble lord Lord | :45:00. | :45:05. | |
Stevenson, who has led a collaboration of the engaged, from | :45:06. | :45:08. | |
our benches, from his badges, from the cross benches and occasionally | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
some from the Conservative edges on particular issues as well, to try | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
ensure that we can all get the very best possible out of this bill and | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
indeed to my noble friend Lord story who has been a tower of strength | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
this as well. So, finally, it is to say I think we have made this very | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
much better bill than when it reached us and I'm very grateful to | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
the Minister for helping that to happen. Can I say, in relation to | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
what the Lord said about the Prime Minister's remarks on calling the | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
election, I don't think she said... And I'm only relying on my memory, I | :45:47. | :45:51. | |
don't think she said the unelected House of Lords, what she did say was | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
unelected Lords who had made it clear that, for everything they | :45:57. | :46:01. | |
could do to stop Brexit would be done. Something like that. I don't | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
think it really was a reference to the House of Lords as a whole, | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
because apart from anything else, it wouldn't fit the description. I also | :46:13. | :46:19. | |
want to support what Lord Woolwich said about the hope, he knows much | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
more about the atmosphere in Whitehall than I do, he said that he | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
hoped the research promoted in this might well have a good effect in | :46:30. | :46:36. | |
that erection. Finally, I want to agree with what has been said | :46:37. | :46:38. | |
about the noble lord Lord Stevenson, I hope you will enjoy the freedom of | :46:39. | :46:50. | |
not being on the front bench. I want to include in that all his | :46:51. | :46:53. | |
colleagues in the French bench, and the front bench of the Liberal | :46:54. | :47:00. | |
party, and some of my efforts, I have enjoyed the Corporation and I | :47:01. | :47:03. | |
am very grateful. -- front bench. And the cooperation of many of the | :47:04. | :47:13. | |
Prime Minister referred to us all as Prime Minister referred to us all as | :47:14. | :47:15. | |
some pitchers more than anything else, which is not a consummate in | :47:16. | :47:23. | |
some ways. -- saboteurs. This is a section of the bill for which I | :47:24. | :47:26. | |
think we must except we have made no progress at all. It would probably | :47:27. | :47:33. | |
be wrong of me to give too much detail of what happens on the | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
washer, I was only there for a very small part of it, most of the time I | :47:39. | :47:41. | |
was left hanging on her mobile phone in a remote area which did not work | :47:42. | :47:44. | |
very well and I was getting more frustrated, on my inability to have | :47:45. | :47:50. | |
any influence at all on some of the debates. But one would hope that the | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
arguments that we've found today would lead to at least a discussion | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
about what should be the way forward on a very comp Lex and rather | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
annoying area that we unable seem to be able to get into focus. The fact | :48:04. | :48:10. | |
was, it was made very clear the start, I understand, that the | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
Minister concerned was unable to discuss any concessions in this area | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
and it was ruled off the table from the very beginning. I think it plays | :48:19. | :48:24. | |
a little bit to the conversation we had earlier that there is something | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
dysfunctional about Whitehall on crosscutting issues. We all know the | :48:29. | :48:31. | |
wicked issues are difficult ones, the ones that no one wants to play | :48:32. | :48:34. | |
on, no minister will take full responsibility for. Because prime | :48:35. | :48:41. | |
ministers are not always as powerful as the public misconceptions have, | :48:42. | :48:47. | |
you will not make the progress which is to achieve something genuinely | :48:48. | :48:49. | |
about the whole of the Government, this is a whole that has been | :48:50. | :48:52. | |
created in this area that it think we have fallen into. What appears to | :48:53. | :49:00. | |
be almost uncanny ability of the current Prime Minister to be able to | :49:01. | :49:03. | |
exercise control in a very remote part of the Government. I think | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
there are two other things I would like to say before we hear from the | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
Minister, as he wants this. The first is, I do think a little of | :49:12. | :49:17. | |
what Mort Willetts has said about the need to use the fact that we've | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
been rebuffed here again -- Lord Willetts, to try and get this case | :49:23. | :49:27. | |
right would be a good thing to do. I would like to focus not just on the | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
statistics, they are very important, but it think it might be ambitious | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
to think we will get a counting income accounting out system because | :49:36. | :49:41. | |
of the issue here, the issue is, who was controlling the entry of our | :49:42. | :49:45. | |
students to our universities? The Lord Willetts said we would have the | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
best regulated sector, in terms of the UK if not the world, ... | :49:50. | :49:57. | |
Shouldn't we be trusting them to get the best students that would benefit | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
from the education here? The truth is, it is all second guessed by the | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
Home Office and who have their own teams of people who interview the | :50:07. | :50:08. | |
students nominated by the institutions come and set the quota | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
levels, although they are said to be unlimited, although they are in | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
practice set and only increased on application. It will change the code | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
is available to every institution if they feel that an institution is | :50:22. | :50:24. | |
making mistakes in terms of the people they recruit, not just | :50:25. | :50:30. | |
because at the point of entry, my Lords, but what happens to the | :50:31. | :50:34. | |
students after they've left the responsibility of the institutions, | :50:35. | :50:36. | |
with a get out to the wider world, if they are able to get a job or | :50:37. | :50:41. | |
even if they do disappear from the statistics, somehow the original | :50:42. | :50:44. | |
institution that brought them and is responsible for them. That seems to | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
be a double penalty, in terms of what they are doing but also for | :50:49. | :50:51. | |
future recruitment issues. I think all of this has got to be picked up | :50:52. | :50:54. | |
and looked out. This is not a good system. There is a pilot ongoing, a | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
pilot which is affecting Masters courses, deliberately chosen so the | :50:59. | :51:05. | |
results would be available earlier. There is some hope that we might be | :51:06. | :51:08. | |
able to use that system to drive a different approach to this were | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
trusted institutions, well regulated under a new system which has the | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
support of both houses, is able to make the decisions necessary to | :51:17. | :51:19. | |
recruit the right students to benefit from our system and that the | :51:20. | :51:22. | |
filthy response abilities and duties and activities that everyone we know | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
will do with the soft power of going back to create economic activity | :51:28. | :51:30. | |
before they do to and be good citizens both here in the world. At | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
the moment, we have failed completely and I really regret that. | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
I have the bitterness and were granted as much as the noble lord | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
has share his pain. But I think we must move on from here, this has | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
not, this must not go away, it is too important for the economic | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
future of our country, the institutions concerned who need the | :51:51. | :51:53. | |
students if they're going to be successful and make progress, and | :51:54. | :51:55. | |
for the individuals concerned to her getting the benefits of the | :51:56. | :51:58. | |
education here. I do hope we will make progress at a the disaster we | :51:59. | :52:01. | |
now face. My Lords, the noble Lord Hannay | :52:02. | :52:15. | |
spoke after my initial remarks, I understand how he and others. Views | :52:16. | :52:25. | |
on this international student topic that I do appreciate his | :52:26. | :52:28. | |
understanding of the current process needed to move forward, alluded to | :52:29. | :52:36. | |
by him and the noble Lord Stevenson. In terms of concluding remarks I | :52:37. | :52:48. | |
would like to say that we have had an exceptionally rich debate in the | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
last weeks and months. As the minister in the Other Least noted | :52:53. | :53:00. | |
this House is contributed enormously to the bill, expertise and step has | :53:01. | :53:05. | |
been cleared not just because the nub of amendments but also the | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
quality of the debate. The government has reflected deeply on | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
these points throughout the debate and I hope has understands this now | :53:15. | :53:18. | |
including the most recent amendments, the voice of the sector | :53:19. | :53:23. | |
has also been hurt and I'm glad that the universities work and able to | :53:24. | :53:28. | |
give support to the package of amendments tabled in the other place | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
at the start of this week. I recommend without reservation that | :53:33. | :53:36. | |
the noble Lords give support to this bill, as Lord Willets said it | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
represents the most important legislation to the sect of 45 years | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
and will set the framework for our world-class education sector and | :53:47. | :53:49. | |
global leading research-based to continue to thrive in the 21st | :53:50. | :53:55. | |
century. My lords I beg to move. The question is that motion G B agreed | :53:56. | :53:59. | |
to, those of that opinion will say content, the contrary not content, | :54:00. | :54:06. | |
the contents I have it. Motion H move formally. The question is that | :54:07. | :54:11. | |
motion capital H B agreed to. Those of that opinion say content, the | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
contrary not content, the contents have it. Consideration of Commons | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
reason and amendment to the Digital economy Bill, Lord Ashman pine. | :54:23. | :54:50. | |
My Lords, I beg to move motion A that this House does not exist... I | :54:51. | :55:01. | |
beg to move that the Commons reasons and amendments being considered. The | :55:02. | :55:08. | |
question is that the Commons reasons and amendment now be considered, as | :55:09. | :55:13. | |
many of that opinion say content, the contrary not content, the | :55:14. | :55:19. | |
content Dexter habit. Lord Ashman. My Lords, I beg to move that this | :55:20. | :55:24. | |
has do not insist on amendment Bay and agree with the Commons on the | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
amendments 18, one B, once EMU. This group covers two areas where the | :55:30. | :55:34. | |
other place has offered amendments in view of your Lordships's | :55:35. | :55:40. | |
amendments. Lords amendment one on the universal service obligation | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
challenged the government to be more ambitious on universal Digital | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
connectivity. A broadband was set initially at 10 megabits per second, | :55:49. | :55:53. | |
formed part of our plans to make sure that no one is digitally | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
excluded. Lords amendment one would have disrupted those plans. In our | :55:58. | :56:03. | |
view it makes this an workable and because of the risk of legal | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
challenge would lead to delays in implementation. The US over can only | :56:09. | :56:14. | |
work if it is legally robust and enforceable. EU law requires it to | :56:15. | :56:18. | |
take into account technologies used by the majority of subscribers. | :56:19. | :56:22. | |
Today 30 megabits per second is enjoyed by less than Teddy percent. | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
Two gigabits per second is enjoyed by less than 1%. While we may have a | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
majority taking up 30 megabits in a few years' time, the government | :56:34. | :56:45. | |
wants to implement a USO now. This would be difficult to achieve. No | :56:46. | :56:50. | |
concern to many is that the whole country should access superfast | :56:51. | :56:53. | |
speeds of 30 megabits per second. We show that ambition, we therefore | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
propose that a superfast USO will be reconsidered by Ofcom was 75% of | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
premises across the UK subscribe to superfast broadband. On Lords | :57:03. | :57:09. | |
amendment to the other place agreed with your Lordships's concerns in | :57:10. | :57:14. | |
relation to Bill capping and proposed amendment to a Hindu. As | :57:15. | :57:20. | |
with the Lords amendments we provide that mobile phone customers must | :57:21. | :57:23. | |
have the opportunity to place a limit on their bill. Any limits and | :57:24. | :57:27. | |
cannot be exceeded unless the customer agrees and Ofcom is given | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
enforcement powers. The requirement placed on providers to ensure that | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
customers can contact the emergency services will not be affected. The | :57:36. | :57:43. | |
government also reflected on roving elements but was not convinced of | :57:44. | :57:49. | |
their merit. We do not believe that roaming is the right solution and I | :57:50. | :57:55. | |
will set out our reasons. With regards to switching the bill goes | :57:56. | :57:58. | |
further than the proposed amendment, the provision in the bill confirms | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
Ofcom's power to set a condition about switching relates to operators | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
of all telecom services including fixed line, broadband, and pay-TV, | :58:08. | :58:12. | |
not just mobile phones. My Lords, I beg to move. The question is that | :58:13. | :58:23. | |
motion A B agreed to. My Lords, speaking about motion when, as | :58:24. | :58:26. | |
someone who was renovated Victorian house I know one thing to be true, | :58:27. | :58:31. | |
it is all very well stripping off the woodchip and slapping on some | :58:32. | :58:39. | |
thing else and it's all very well improving the coving and putting up | :58:40. | :58:44. | |
a dado rail but if you don't tackle the fundamentals you soon raising | :58:45. | :58:49. | |
floorboards again. It's the roof, the electricals and the plumbing | :58:50. | :58:55. | |
that call you out. My Lords, I had hoped that this bill would tackle | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
the fundamentals of the nation's Digital plumbing. I had hoped that | :59:00. | :59:08. | |
it would put in train a revolution for our Digital network and really | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
enable the entire country to participate in the digital economy | :59:13. | :59:17. | |
that I believe this bill will be setting out to achieve. I still hope | :59:18. | :59:22. | |
that that is true but I have my doubts. I think without a | :59:23. | :59:32. | |
requirement for a fast digital for the arrival of that fast digital | :59:33. | :59:45. | |
network, we will struggle. I think the notion of 75% threshold | :59:46. | :59:51. | |
description is a tricky way of going about this. I think we will have to | :59:52. | :59:57. | |
use the reporting requirements of gone obliges to do and that is a | :59:58. | :00:04. | |
move forward, how they are driving usage of broadband because we are | :00:05. | :00:09. | |
using the commercial arms of the same companies asked to deliver | :00:10. | :00:18. | |
broadband, to promote the use of the broadband itself. We have a closed | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
loop here that does not have an incentive necessarily to drive up to | :00:23. | :00:28. | |
the 75% threshold. Because I would be more confident in the progress of | :00:29. | :00:35. | |
this country in delivering this network if there was not a dominant | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
player that sits on a Victorian asset of copy wire which it wants to | :00:42. | :00:48. | |
sweat, quite understandably, it has to be for Ofcom to drive our desire, | :00:49. | :00:57. | |
to move forward. We are closing the door on a shiny new bill which tills | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
smells of new paint that just like Mike has I can't help thinking that | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
we will be raising the floorboards on this time and again in | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
Parliaments to come. -- just like in my house. My Lords, we welcome the | :01:12. | :01:18. | |
two amendments proposed in lieu in the motion, just proposed by the | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
noble Lord and Mr. I think we are also at liberty to regret that they | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
don't go further. The is you we are in, which has been well picked up, | :01:29. | :01:36. | |
59% of rural Britain has no access to Internet and that is a concern | :01:37. | :01:44. | |
for a major concern, the root of the problem is that while USO sounds | :01:45. | :01:50. | |
good and is an effective way of getting across the argument that | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
this service should be for everyone, the reality is that unless there are | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
sanctions to make sure that it happens and there is an incentive in | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
terms of investment to make sure that the funding is there for them | :02:01. | :02:03. | |
to take place at an appropriate time, it will never happen, so it's | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
only part of the story. And the effort we have got locked into | :02:08. | :02:15. | |
unfortunately seems to be one that divides the floor, we have that with | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
this amendment although it is a very low floor. But they don't have the | :02:21. | :02:22. | |
aspiration yet embodied in the amendments that this has agrees to | :02:23. | :02:31. | |
get the theme up. We are stuck in a situation where the spirit may be | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
willing, the flesh is weak and we cannot say that we will look forward | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
to this in the immediate future. The root of the problem is another | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
source which is the reliance on the Europe European Commission | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
requirements. The government has made great play of this but I think | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
the point is the only legislative framework under which Europe is | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
operating, one which will fall away in 2019 if the new government gets | :02:57. | :03:04. | |
its way, is that they should be a non-biding guidance in terms of what | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
constitutes a universal service. And yet the government has chosen to | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
interpret that as a limit on what they are doing rather than an | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
opportunity of going further. While we welcome what is happening here we | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
do not think of the mechanics chosen would be at 30 megabits per second, | :03:22. | :03:29. | |
I think we will be back having to look at this in very short order. On | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
the question of mobile phone capping we are pleased that the government | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
has accepted the amendments made to the bill at an earlier stage. This | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
will help consumers not to get into trouble with bills and we're glad | :03:44. | :03:52. | |
they accepted it. I am grateful for those remarks by the noble Lords, if | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
I could refer to the noble Lord Fox he talks about the fundamentals, | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
these are the things we have tried to address in this bill, we have | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
tried to increase digital connectivity around the country and | :04:08. | :04:16. | |
its measures did not... They are part of that. The USO is slightly | :04:17. | :04:26. | |
different. It was never intended to drive increased speeds. We said | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
separately that we share the ambition of the noble Lords to | :04:33. | :04:42. | |
increase those. But of course the USO is there to tackle social | :04:43. | :04:51. | |
exclusiveness. Exclusion is the word I'm looking for, eventually! But I | :04:52. | :05:03. | |
can assure the noble Lords that it's not about delaying superfast | :05:04. | :05:11. | |
connectivity, to the contrary we don't want to be involved in | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
protracted legal disputes. The fact is that the House can legislate for | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
whatever speed it likes but it will only make a difference to people up | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
and down the country if it is implemented properly. That means | :05:25. | :05:27. | |
that the bill must be legally watertight and realistic. The | :05:28. | :05:35. | |
government will put its money where its mouth is and as the noble Lord | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
Stevenson mentioned we have now put in legislation that the broadband | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
USO will be set at a minimum of 10 megabits per second and we will | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
ensure that if the minimum has not been raised to 30 megabits per | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
second by the time take-up of broadband has reached seven the and | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
premises a review must be triggered. That is practical and interesting, | :06:01. | :06:02. | |
it will give this country the fastest USO in Europe. I do hope, my | :06:03. | :06:12. | |
Lords, that we do concentrate on the benefits, so we are receiving from | :06:13. | :06:13. | |
this and I beg to move. The question is that the motion be | :06:14. | :06:26. | |
moved. The contents have it. The question is that Motion B be agreed | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
to. If many of the opinion, say content. The content Abbott. -- the | :06:31. | :06:47. | |
contents have it. I move that the House do not insist on Amendment be, | :06:48. | :06:54. | |
I want to start again, my Lords, by saying the Government accepts and | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
agrees with the spirit of the Amendment 40 which is drafted, it | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
risks potential consequences. It is not clear who would be notifying | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
social media content. The requirement to notify the police if | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
it contravenes any existing legislation could have... This would | :07:18. | :07:24. | |
do little to increase public protection. Amendment 48, we believe | :07:25. | :07:32. | |
will achieve a similar outcome by setting out the expected behaviour | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
while protecting users. As explained in the other place by my right | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
honourable friend, the Minister of state for digital and culture, there | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
is good work being done by some companies to prevent the use of | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
platforms for illegal purposes, but we agree that more can be done by | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
social media to tackle harmful conduct online. Particularly | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
bullying behaviour which can have serious consequences. Our intention | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
is that the code would set out a guidance on what social media | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
providers should do in relation to conduct that is lawful, but | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
nonetheless distressing or upsetting. The intention is that the | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
guidance and legislation will address companies proportionately. | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
We believe that this code, together with the Internet safety strategy, | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
will result in a properly considered copperheads of approach to online | :08:24. | :08:30. | |
safety. One that will deliver protections that this Amendment | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
seeks to procure. The question is that Motion C be agreed to. I have | :08:36. | :08:42. | |
no doubt that the noble lord Stevenson will want to give a more | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
substantial response, but this was supported on these benches very | :08:47. | :08:53. | |
strongly. I do accept that the Minister has tried to incorporate | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
the spirit of the original Amendment in this Amendment coming from the | :08:57. | :09:03. | |
Commons, and my Lord made a number of detailed points about projections | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
to the drafting of the original Amendment, but my Lords, there is | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
one thundering great hole in the Amendment as brought forward by the | :09:14. | :09:21. | |
Minister, which is their is no obligation on the providers to | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
comply with the code of practice once it comes into force, so my | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
Lords, it is nakedly voluntarily code rather than any code that is | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
actually able to be enforced by the secretary of state and that is the | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
major difference between the Amendment that this House passed and | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
the Amendment that is now come forward to us. My Lords, I wonder, | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
he mentioned the Internet safety strategy and the work being done | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
about. Many of us are convinced that when the work on that is done, it | :09:51. | :09:53. | |
will become quite clear that there will be a need for an enforcement | :09:54. | :10:02. | |
power in this kind of obligation, on this kind of code of conduct. I | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
wonder if the Minister will give us an assurance that that will be | :10:08. | :10:09. | |
considered, that the question of enforcement of this kind of code of | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
conduct will be considered as part of the Internet safety strategy and | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
if the overwhelming body of evidence is that such a form of compliance is | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
needed, that the Government will come forward with amendments. My | :10:23. | :10:35. | |
Lords, I want to lay the House too much to repeat what Lord Clement | :10:36. | :10:38. | |
Jones is just sad. No enforcement and no sanctions, but the important | :10:39. | :10:45. | |
thing, and I do recognise the words of the noble lord, the Minister, in | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
reflecting the spirit and intent of our original motion, and I think | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
this is what this Amendment now seeks to do, the Government | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
Amendment, which is to give notice to the social networks. That failure | :11:02. | :11:08. | |
to comply will result in further Government action. And I, like | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
global North Lord Clement Jones, would hope that the Minister would | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
be able to respond positively, particularly on the Internet | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
strategy review, but I think in conclusion, we have had an extremely | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
good examination of the issue at committee stage in the Lords and at | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
the core stage and I do think we now have a policy which is clearly | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
setting out and giving notice to social networks that we do want to | :11:38. | :11:46. | |
ensure proper standards are maintained an action is taken when | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
evidence of abuse occurs. It shouldn't be a matter of days or | :11:52. | :11:54. | |
weeks as it has been to take material down, that is offensive. We | :11:55. | :12:01. | |
have seen evidence of some of the horrendous things that have gone on | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
social networks from the US and Thailand and we do want to ensure | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
that they fully understand the gravity of the situation. I am | :12:12. | :12:22. | |
grateful to the noble lord's marks. Starting right at the last remarks, | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
I think the social media companies are absolutely in no doubt about the | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
Government's determination to her view what they do and live up to | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
their responsibilities. I think we are all agreed on that. We realise, | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
even when some things are technically lawful, they are very | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
damaging and unpleasant and things that are set out to humiliate people | :12:48. | :12:54. | |
have no place in our society. I of course understand why some noble | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
Lords are disappointed that the code of practice is a mandatory, what I | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
think we should have confidence that it will make a difference, if we | :13:03. | :13:09. | |
take it seriously as I suggested that we do, and that the social | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
media companies do. The code of practice will clearly set out our | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
expectations on social media providers. It is in their interest | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
to be responsible in regards to online safety. It is critical for | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
their future, for the users to trust them and protect the health of their | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
brand. . As far as the Internet safety strategy is concerned, and | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
there has been a lot of talk about that, I except that, we haven't | :13:40. | :13:42. | |
ruled anything out of that strategy that we have clearly heard the views | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
of the House and I can say that we will consider the points raised | :13:48. | :13:50. | |
carefully in the development of the strategy and we welcome | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
contributions from noble Lords and other interested parties. I repeat, | :13:56. | :14:01. | |
my department has absolutely taken on board the views of this House, in | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
addition to many other state courts in relation to social media | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
companies, and we will see what comes of it. The fact is, after this | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
Amendment, if it is accepted, the code must be produced and it will be | :14:19. | :14:25. | |
and I'm convinced it will have a beneficial effect. The question is | :14:26. | :14:32. | |
Motion C be agreed to. As many of that opinion, the same content. On | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
the contrary, say not content. The contents have it. | :14:39. | :14:48. | |
I beg to move motion D, that this House do not insist on it amendments | :14:49. | :14:56. | |
237, 238 and 239, to which the comments have disagreed for their | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
recent 239A. My Lords, we return once again to the issue of BBC | :15:03. | :15:08. | |
funding, having debated this at length during the committee and | :15:09. | :15:11. | |
report. Honourable members and the other place have disagreed with the | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
amendments that were inserted into this bill at report stage, which | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
sought to establish a BBC license fee commission. The Government | :15:22. | :15:23. | |
remains clear that it must have a free hand in determining the BBC's | :15:24. | :15:30. | |
overall funding deals on the level of the license be, following | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
negotiation with the BBC itself. Noble Lords will appreciate the | :15:35. | :15:36. | |
decisions on the level of the license be our a matter for the | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
elected Government. Similarly, we are not convinced that consulting | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
the public on the level of BBC funding is the right approach to | :15:47. | :15:48. | |
determining its funding settlements. The BBC's funding needs are a | :15:49. | :15:55. | |
complicated and technical issue, not one that lends itself easily to | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
public consultation. Although the Government has persuaded the | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
honourable members of the other place, the Government has listened | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
to concerns from noble Lords about the process about setting the BBC's | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
funding settlement, and about making sure the BBC has an appropriate | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
level of funding. The new charter endorses the BBC's mission and | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
reinforces the role and independence of the BBC in a much changed and | :16:21. | :16:23. | |
much changing beauty landscape. The specific provisions that the BBC | :16:24. | :16:31. | |
Charter has for setting the next settlement, it should also give the | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
noble Lords that have some concerns him comfort. We know exactly when | :16:35. | :16:37. | |
the next funding period will commence. The Government will allow | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
the BBC to make its case and it will consider taking independent advice | :16:44. | :16:46. | |
before reaching the final decision. I hope the noble Lords who supported | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
the noble lord Lord asked at earlier stages will recognise that their | :16:52. | :16:54. | |
efforts and their arguments on this matter have not been wasted. The | :16:55. | :17:01. | |
Government is under no illusions that the next funding settlement | :17:02. | :17:03. | |
should be one that is carefully considered. There will be no | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
question of the so-called midnight raids with a five-year settlement, | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
which is inflation protected, has been agreed. Everyone knows when the | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
next settlement will begin. I'm turning to motion the EE, which | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
relates to public service rod casting prominence on the electronic | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
programme guide, an issue that has been much debated in this House and | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
the other place. The Government has heard the strength of feeling on | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
this issue. The Government has concluded that he can see no | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
compelling evidence of harm, we do recognise that this is a fast moving | :17:40. | :17:46. | |
technological landscape which must be under review, a point I think was | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
made clearly by the Lord Boyd at report stage. Amendment Will Place a | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
new requirement on Ofcom to publish a report which looks at the ease of | :17:58. | :18:05. | |
content across all television platforms, both on a linear and | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
nonlinear basis. The report will focus consumer pressure on TV | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
manufacturers to improve the prominence of PSP on-demand services | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
where this has been identified as an issue. We know that platform | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
providers and TV manufacturers respond most strongly to consumer | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
needs and developing their products, therefore developments in EPG should | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
be customer driven. The new duty will also impose an ongoing | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
obligation on Ofcom to report its EPG care by the 1st of December 2020 | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
and to publish its first report on the ease of accessing and finding | :18:47. | :18:53. | |
PSP content before then. As my right honourable friend made clear | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
yesterday, if Ofcom's report makes it clear that there is a problem in | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
this area, and one which can only be fixed by legislation and assuming | :19:03. | :19:08. | |
the Government is returned in June, the Government will bring forward | :19:09. | :19:11. | |
that legislation as soon as possible and I think that is why the Labour | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
front bench spokesman said she was happy to support the Government | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
Amendment. I beg to move. Side the question is that motion D be agreed | :19:21. | :19:26. | |
to. The three amendments that are the subject of motion D K before | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
your Lordship 's in the name of myself, Aaron is Carter and Lord | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
Inglewood and Stevenson. They were passed by your Lordship 's with a | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
thumping majority. But they are now to be rejected with no alternative | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
amendments in lieu of these. My Lords, the issue here concerns the | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
process by which the BBC license fee is determined. There has been | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
extensive condemnation of the current process, condemnation from | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
the right honourable John Whittingdale wintering the CMS | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
Select Committee in the other place from the chair of the BBC trust, | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
along with a range of organisations including the voice of the listener | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
and viewer, and you Jay, and your own Select Committee on | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
communications which I have the honour of chairing, at least until | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
the dissolution of Parliament. What everyone agrees is that the current | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
process has met the secretary of state deciding on this vital matter | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
in a most unsatisfactory way behind locked doors in secret on a basis | :20:30. | :20:36. | |
that has, on the last two occasions, involved as well as freezing the | :20:37. | :20:43. | |
fever many years, the allocation of the feed to many other purposes, | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
midnight raids, broadband roll-out to free licenses to the over 75. -- | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
fee. The amendments which turn out to be rejected would not tie the | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
hands of the secretary of state, who would still make the determination, | :20:59. | :21:05. | |
but the revised process would involve public and parliamentary | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
consultation and expert advice from a specialist BBC license fee | :21:10. | :21:16. | |
commission. On the decision over the license fee hangs the future of the | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
BBC. It does seem vital to ensure that that decision is based on an | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
understanding of both what the public wants and on hard evidence of | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
what expenditure the BBC needs to make, to fulfil its public or | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
Chris's. But I conclude this expression of disappointment with | :21:38. | :21:44. | |
the rather limited things to the noble Lords the Minister for a | :21:45. | :21:47. | |
technology that this is a technical and complicated matter, which is one | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
on which Government will consider taking advice. I think they would be | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
very well advised to take advice on this matter am a but we have five | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
years until the license fee is reset and during that time I think it | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
might be worth your Lordship's returning to this matter. | :22:07. | :22:12. | |
I think it was about one year ago when I introduced a Private members | :22:13. | :22:21. | |
Bill as too low in the ballot to have any chance of being debated and | :22:22. | :22:28. | |
passed. And when that became evident I decided instead to use this bill | :22:29. | :22:38. | |
as a vehicle to protect the financing of the BBC. And as the | :22:39. | :22:45. | |
Minister will I'm afraid recalled painfully throughout most of the | :22:46. | :22:52. | |
last year we have been debating this is to do with the independence and | :22:53. | :23:04. | |
funding of the BBC. The first subject was whether it was proper to | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
have legislation and a charter. The government originally took the | :23:09. | :23:11. | |
position that they were inconsistent. I am grateful for the | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
fact that eventually, having listened to the noble Lords with the | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
authority of Lord Inglewood, Lord Fowler while he was a free man and | :23:20. | :23:28. | |
Lord best about how a charter is not anything more than what the Minister | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
's desire, it is not like legislation, and eventually the | :23:35. | :23:37. | |
government came to the conclusion I believe that there was nothing | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
incompatible between having a charter and having statutory | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
underpinning. So the next question was, why do you need any statutory | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
underpinning. And the answer is, because if you read the Charter, | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
including the current charter, there is no obligation in it upon the | :23:56. | :24:03. | |
government to provide sufficient funding or for that matter even to | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
respect the independence of the BBC. I made it clear before this bill | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
left this has for the other place that I was not wedded to any | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
particular solution to the problem, of ensuring that the government | :24:21. | :24:28. | |
would be providing sufficient funding and would respect the | :24:29. | :24:38. | |
independence of the BBC and would do everything in its power to secure | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
that. And one of the ways as this has as syndicated, expressed our | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
view that by adopting his more moderate approach than mine, since | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
his approach, or his commission would not bind the government to | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
anything in particular other than considering the outcome of the | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
review commissions, whereas my approach would create an obligation | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
upon the government as regards funding and a prohibition against | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
the kind of top slicing the transferred to the BBC of matters | :25:12. | :25:18. | |
that were the obligation of the Department for Work and Pensions to | :25:19. | :25:21. | |
ensure that that never happened again. Before we finally approve | :25:22. | :25:34. | |
this motion, one point is that the government does not accept any | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
obligations as I understand it about the sufficiency of funding or any | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
obligation upon it as to respecting the independence of the BBC. So I | :25:45. | :25:50. | |
asked the Minister, I asked him last time and he wasn't able to answer, I | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
asked him this time can he please assure the House that the government | :25:55. | :26:02. | |
does accept that there is an obligation to provide sufficient | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
funds to the BBC, whether through the licence fee or otherwise, to | :26:06. | :26:13. | |
ensure that the BBC can fulfil the public purposes as an independent | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
public service broadcaster that are enunciated in the charter. And does | :26:20. | :26:29. | |
not accept also that there is an obligation to ensure that the | :26:30. | :26:32. | |
independence of the BBC is guaranteed and that there will be no | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
further raid upon it to top slicing, if the government can give those | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
assurances today than I will not feel that I have wasted most of the | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
best part of the last year in these debates. If he cannot do so, and I | :26:47. | :26:53. | |
very much hope that he will be able to do so, if he cannot do so I'm | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
afraid I shall have to bring in another Private members Bill and a | :26:58. | :27:05. | |
ballot. I just want to say that I regret that the government did not | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
accept the laws Amendment two 42. The Minister of State in the other | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
place in a speech yesterday said that an Internet based on demand | :27:14. | :27:20. | |
viewing is different. I don't think that's right. The two technologies | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
are emerging as television sets become multipurpose computers we are | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
seeing convergence between TV and Internet increasing at a rapid pace. | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
It is crucial that the regime should keep pace with changing viewing | :27:36. | :27:38. | |
habits. However the response from the other place does give me some | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
heart. At least there will be an Ofcom review of the PSP Providence | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
guidelines, I would like to urge the noble Lord the Minister to ensure | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
that Ofcom starts the review as soon as possible, and not allow them to | :27:53. | :27:59. | |
put it off until late 2020. Every month we are seeing the PSP on | :28:00. | :28:02. | |
demand and digital services are becoming more important for | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
broadcasters. I'm sure your Lordships would like to see viewers | :28:07. | :28:09. | |
having easy access to programmes which in the case of the BBC funded | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
by public money and in the case of Channel 4 are publicly owned. My | :28:15. | :28:22. | |
lord, I very much hope that the Lord Minister will take the threat from | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
my noble friend seriously and will rise to the challenges that is put | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
to the Minister on the question of funding and independence and | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
carrying out the activities of the BBC. I do in particular want to | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
agree with the noble Best with in his disappointment with the decision | :28:41. | :28:54. | |
today. My noble friend Baroness Bonham Carter added her name | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
this. It was the product of the committee occasions select | :28:59. | :29:05. | |
committee,... Independent oversight and the setting of a licensee and of | :29:06. | :29:13. | |
course my Lords the Minister pushed back a report, committee and a | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
reading by talking about the licensee being attacked but of | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
course my Lords it's a rather exceptional tax, it is a hub tax, | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
paid by the public to fund the BBC. So my Lords it's entirely correct | :29:27. | :29:33. | |
that there should be a different mechanism for the setting of that | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
licensee. My Lords, it arises because of the midnight raids by the | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
Treasury, the hijacking by the treachery of the licence fee | :29:44. | :29:45. | |
progress that has taken place at least twice recently my Lord. And, | :29:46. | :29:52. | |
my Lords, the minister, and this is one of the worrying phrases users, | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
the government wants a free hand following negotiations with the BBC, | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
my Lords, that is exactly what the original amendment was designed to | :30:04. | :30:11. | |
prevent. My Lords, what I think is the nub of the concern is that | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
assurances, and the Minister did give assurances, he gave some new | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
language to lead my Lords, assurances given by government, we | :30:21. | :30:23. | |
have seen what assurances are worth in terms of snap elections, my Lord! | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
Assurances can be given by government one minute which can be | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
broken the next, my lords. And my Lords, however carefully we | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
scrutinise the noble Lord's wording today, if his government is in a | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
position in the future to negotiate the licence fee my Lords, we have no | :30:43. | :30:50. | |
absolute assurance that those words will be followed. So my Lords I join | :30:51. | :30:56. | |
with deep disappointment with I am sure almost all benches around the | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
house in sharing that disappointment. I do apologise. I | :31:01. | :31:07. | |
haven't dealt with the second amendment, Amendment E. In many ways | :31:08. | :31:15. | |
it's even more disappointing. I think that it is a perfectly valid | :31:16. | :31:24. | |
thing that Viscount Colwill expressed some reports of the Ofcom | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
review but given that the government can say it is a political decision | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
whether or not they have the BBC licence fee commission, my Lords, | :31:32. | :31:39. | |
this is much more miles, and at least two occasions we've heard DC | :31:40. | :31:46. | |
MS secretaries Jeremy Hunt and Maria Miller both saying that the position | :31:47. | :31:52. | |
of the public service broadcasters was very important way of | :31:53. | :32:03. | |
safeguarding that position. We already know the Minister has | :32:04. | :32:11. | |
undertaken a review by Ofcom but my Lords Ofcom already know that there | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
is a problem. They recommended in their 2015 PSB review that | :32:17. | :32:23. | |
policymakers should form the rules... So that does not seem to be | :32:24. | :32:34. | |
a particularly constructive way forward, despite appearances. So, my | :32:35. | :32:37. | |
Lords, there are a number of questions that arise from the | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
government amendment E. Can the Minister confirm that statutory | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
change will be necessary to bring on demand PSP content and the | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
collective EPG is where they are found into the scope of Ofcom's EPG | :32:53. | :33:01. | |
code, my Lords? The Minister has claimed in conversation that it | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
wasn't possible to have a Henry VIII power that would implement Ofcom's | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
recommendations for OnDemand, my lords. So I am assuming that there | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
is no current statutory power and we would be talking about primary | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
legislation in that respect but it would be helpful to have that | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
confirmation, my lords. Is the Minister going to give an assurance | :33:24. | :33:33. | |
that the government will act? We would not have brought forward the | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
amendment unless we thought this was a real and present is see that | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
needed to be tackled. This wasn't a frivolous amendment, but the | :33:44. | :33:45. | |
government seems to have a completely different view. The | :33:46. | :33:56. | |
earnest attention is important. The amendment sets a first December 2020 | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
statutory deadline for the review and the revision of the EPG code | :34:01. | :34:03. | |
that does the Minister not agree that it would be desirable to | :34:04. | :34:09. | |
commence work earlier, given the need for prior statutory changes, | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
probably? In order to bring on demand contact into scope? And | :34:14. | :34:21. | |
finally my Lords, it does appear that there is the statutory power to | :34:22. | :34:28. | |
bring the prominence of PSP children's channels into EPG's. And | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
my Lords, does the Minister agree with that and would he agree that if | :34:33. | :34:41. | |
Ofcom so recommends, it could be brought in earlier than the OnDemand | :34:42. | :34:47. | |
provision? I very much up that the Minister can answer those questions, | :34:48. | :34:53. | |
my lords. My Lord, these elements taken together workshops of the | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
government. I think with predictable certainty they've fallen into both. | :34:58. | :35:00. | |
-- they were traps for the government. The one discussed on the | :35:01. | :35:09. | |
question of the need for Ofcom to have powers to make sure that there | :35:10. | :35:15. | |
was a proper rule about provenance applying not only to the linear but | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
also the off-line world, the world via player and others, it was really | :35:20. | :35:22. | |
a test about whether or not the government believed in public sector | :35:23. | :35:25. | |
broadcasting. And if it did it needed to make proposals for a | :35:26. | :35:34. | |
channel funded by the public to have access on a fair and equal basis to | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
other commercial channels. By bringing forward a moment which was | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
simply one for report without the necessary requirement that there | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
should be legislation, in three areas that I think we are agreed | :35:49. | :35:51. | |
should be happened and I think they've failed this test. But we | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
welcome they have got to, a further review is important I hope it will | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
bring out the complexity of the issue, the changing technology and | :36:00. | :36:02. | |
the difficulties of assessing this in a way which will make it easier | :36:03. | :36:09. | |
for the to honour its commitment and if the report does make it clear | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
that there is a problem in this area which can only be fixed by | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
legislation, that the government will bring forward that legislation | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
as soon as possible and may I also, if elected, give the commitment from | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
this side of the house that we will do the same. | :36:27. | :36:32. | |
On the BBC license fee, the issue again is of trust. There is a real | :36:33. | :36:39. | |
danger that those institutions that seek protection in Royal charters | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
from what might be a Government of the day, will not be able to rely on | :36:46. | :36:51. | |
that as we go forward. I think the smoke and mirrors effect that was | :36:52. | :36:54. | |
always there with Royal charters is now gone. Therefore there is a real | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
problem about BBC. The Government will only end up convincing if he | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
can show by its actions that it does believe in the independence of the | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
organisations for which Royal charter protection are so important. | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
We are visiting attacks in higher education, where it is no longer | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
possible for those who have guardianship of the funds that we | :37:19. | :37:21. | |
put into research to have Royal charters, they are being removed. | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
There was a threat to universities that will no longer be able to | :37:25. | :37:30. | |
continue to have or change their existing Royal charters, and | :37:31. | :37:33. | |
therefore we've got to be careful on where we are going on this. I think | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
the Government has not been very successful in convincing and we will | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
do both the charter and fee for the BBC. I had some hope during | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
discussions on the charter this time around, with the care and | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
consideration of the Government did give to the question of how the | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
renewal of the BBC Charter and the settlement of the license fee would | :37:56. | :37:57. | |
be protected from the electoral cycle, that we would get somewhere | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
with this and we would continue to trust them. But we've just change | :38:02. | :38:07. | |
the electoral cycle. We have an election in 2017, which means the | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
next election will be in 2022, the year in which the BBC license fee is | :38:13. | :38:15. | |
settled. The election after that will be in 2027, the year of the | :38:16. | :38:21. | |
charter renewal will take place. Do you, my Lords, really believe that | :38:22. | :38:24. | |
we have the best system of protection in place? If we do not | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
seek more information and transparency about a Government that | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
deals with such an important institution as the BBC. I think the | :38:32. | :38:37. | |
noble lord Leicester is right to think again about how we might want | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
to protect in statute the organisations for which we have | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
care, and I'm very sad the very step on that which might've protected us | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
against the move that way in terms of the BBC license fee commission, | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
which after all is not an new idea, it did operate in 2005 /6, it was so | :38:54. | :39:00. | |
successful it annoyed the Government of the day that it recommended to | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
hide the license fee, it recommended Ali offered advice on the detailed | :39:05. | :39:08. | |
examination on the case for what the BBC needed to the fillets charter | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
obligations. That is what we were tied to do without an Amendment and | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
I supported the one that came out of the communication committee. It was | :39:18. | :39:19. | |
right at the time it was proposed, it was supported here at the time | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
that may be supported in the absence of the trump card, which is to | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
change the electoral cycle. If we don't get a commitment from the | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
Government today that there is going to need to be another look at this | :39:32. | :39:35. | |
whole question of the timing, I do think we are in a very bad place. My | :39:36. | :39:44. | |
Lords, I am grateful for all his contributions in May I start with | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
the noble lord Best, I am grateful for the limited thanks he gave me | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
and I give him unqualified things in return, because we have talked about | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
this for a long time both in and out of the chamber. The one thing I can | :39:58. | :40:01. | |
say about the Government's view on the BBC license fee is that we have | :40:02. | :40:07. | |
been entirely consistent. I think I can say to Lord Leicester that, in | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
conversations over a period of time both in and out of the chamber, I | :40:12. | :40:22. | |
have never given him any reason to expect that we should change our | :40:23. | :40:28. | |
view on this and he said he was apathetically optimistic, and I hope | :40:29. | :40:31. | |
he remains optimistic and other things, but we have been entirely | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
consistent on this matter. Because, as they explained at length, we do | :40:36. | :40:42. | |
not believe that it is right for a tax to be consulted on. I do | :40:43. | :40:49. | |
understand that the issues, and I do understand the strength of feeling | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
in this House, but that is why we have made some changes and during | :40:55. | :41:02. | |
the charter renewal process, we have outlined, as I said earlier, that we | :41:03. | :41:08. | |
protected the funding for five years, we won't have any so-called | :41:09. | :41:13. | |
midnight raids. It has been protected from inflation, which it | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
wasn't before. We agree that we will take in information and take expert | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
advice before this process goes ahead in five years' time. Of | :41:23. | :41:30. | |
course, I do take the noble lord Leicester's threat of a Private | :41:31. | :41:37. | |
member's bill extremely seriously and I must assume there is a | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
possibility it will be forthcoming, and I look forward to debating with | :41:42. | :41:48. | |
him on that will stop at the moment, I do not believe that there are | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
situations that are likely to change, but of course in 11 years' | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
time, it might. I don't think I'll be involved with it at that time. He | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
asked a number of questions about the Government guaranteeing the | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
independence of the BBC. Will we adequately funded? The new charter, | :42:10. | :42:16. | |
it indoors is the role of independence and increases the | :42:17. | :42:19. | |
independence of the BBC in a number of ways. Of course, this Government | :42:20. | :42:26. | |
will live by the provisions of the Royal charter as far as independence | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
of the BBC is concerned. On funding, we agreed that we will give it a | :42:32. | :42:38. | |
five-year period, and of course we will ensure that it is properly | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
funded for the future, but it will be a negotiation that takes place at | :42:44. | :42:51. | |
that time. As far as the noble lord's point about timing, Ofcom | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
will get going when they feel it is necessary. But what we have done by | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
our Amendment is put in and day on that so they will have to reduce the | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
report by about 2.5 years' time. That is a great advantage. I am | :43:05. | :43:15. | |
sorry... Just now, to have given an assurance to the House that the | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
Government does regard itself as under a duty to respect the | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
independence of the BBC and to provide sufficient funding to pursue | :43:25. | :43:30. | |
its purposes as an independent public service broadcaster, because | :43:31. | :43:33. | |
if the answer to those questions is yes, I am extremely grateful and if | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
the answer is no, that I would say to the Minister, power is delightful | :43:38. | :43:43. | |
and absolute power is absolutely delightful, but that should not be | :43:44. | :43:50. | |
his motto. What I said was, we of coarse abide by what we put into the | :43:51. | :43:57. | |
Royal charter and it mentions the independence of the BBC and it | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
enhanced the independence of the BBC from what came before. As far as | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
funding is concerned, we have a five-year deal and the funding will | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
be in negotiation as it goes on, but it is clearly not the Government's | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
desire to prevent the BBC carrying out its purposes. But there will be | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
an negotiation, this is a tax to provide for the BBC and each | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
five-year period will be taken on a separate basis. | :44:26. | :44:34. | |
So I'm just moving it on to the EPG now. I'm sorry, I should mention | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
also that the noble lord Stevenson mentioned the problem with win the | :44:41. | :44:48. | |
next funding period is coming around in connection with the election | :44:49. | :44:54. | |
cycle and of course it was carefully, the 11 year cycle was | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
carefully chosen to remove it from the electoral cycle I think at the | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
suggestion of this House, amongst others. It is of course unfortunate | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
that it is... Has been changed by the absence of the fixed term, but | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
of course the fixed term parliaments act is not an absolute guarantee for | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
a five-year parliament and it is true that... | :45:20. | :45:27. | |
The provision was written into the act itself to make sure it was the | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
case. Of course, the five-year settlement will be reached, the new | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
settlement will be reached before the next election, assuming it goes | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
to the full five years. The funding settlement is an 18-24 month | :45:41. | :45:47. | |
negotiation, so that will take place before the election takes place, if | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
it goes to the full five-year term. Fundamentally, though, a long | :45:52. | :45:55. | |
charter allows the BBC to operate with greater certainty and with the | :45:56. | :45:58. | |
freedom and confidence to deliver its object is. And it is also worth | :45:59. | :46:08. | |
remembering that, it in the course, where the charter process has | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
collided with the electoral cycle, it has always managed to conclude | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
successfully that the continue will continue -- Micah BBC will continue | :46:18. | :46:24. | |
to thrive. Moving onto the EPG, there was a suggestion that we | :46:25. | :46:27. | |
should take a broad Henry VIII power, I think both the noble Lords | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
Steven Finn mentioned this, the problem with that, there is an | :46:34. | :46:39. | |
unusual situation where both some French benches -- front benches are | :46:40. | :46:46. | |
almost amending the Government to take a broad Henry VIII power and | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
normally I would say I agree with that. But in this case, this would | :46:51. | :46:57. | |
really have a broad and wide ranging... He would have to be very | :46:58. | :47:01. | |
broad and wide reaching, because amendments could be necessary to the | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
communication act. The broadcasting act in 1990, the broadcasting act | :47:07. | :47:12. | |
1996. Depending on what Ofcom recommended, a wider Amendment might | :47:13. | :47:15. | |
be needed beyond traditional legislation beyond delete back to | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
other areas, which we would not necessarily want to capture, such as | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
online services. We think that this is the best way forward. The noble | :47:25. | :47:31. | |
lord Stevenson also asked about our belief in public sector broadcasting | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
and we have accepted the arguments of your Lordship's house to maintain | :47:37. | :47:42. | |
on our free to air channels, children's TV from the noble | :47:43. | :47:48. | |
Baroness Lady Benjamin, so they are evidence of our support for PSP 's. | :47:49. | :47:58. | |
-- PSB 's. I know noble Lords were disappointed about the BBC license | :47:59. | :48:03. | |
be will stop as I said, we were entirely consistent on this and I | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
think the commitment that we have made on EPG and the Minister in the | :48:09. | :48:16. | |
other place made should be some comfort to those who were | :48:17. | :48:22. | |
disappointed with our answers on this and, as a result, I hope they | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
will be able to accept them and I beg to move. The question is that | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
motion deed be agreed to. As many of that opinion essay, content. To the | :48:35. | :48:40. | |
contrary, not content. The contents have it. The question is that Motion | :48:41. | :48:46. | |
B he agreed to. As many of that opinion, say content. To the | :48:47. | :48:52. | |
contrary, not content. The contents have it. I beg to move motion as, | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
this House to agree with the comments in there and manage 2468. | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
We recommend the good intentions behind the original amendments and | :49:03. | :49:08. | |
we have accepted it, but we need to make some technical amendments to it | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
and that is the purpose of this Amendment. The Government's | :49:13. | :49:18. | |
Amendment clarifies that it should refer to the unique ticket put up | :49:19. | :49:22. | |
for resale and enable the buyer to identify the location of the ticket | :49:23. | :49:27. | |
within the venue. Our Amendment also removes the provision requiring | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
ticket sellers to provide, quote, at any specific condition attached to | :49:33. | :49:38. | |
the resale of the ticket. Many global Lords have asked me about | :49:39. | :49:41. | |
this, I want to put on record why. The Government is firmly of the view | :49:42. | :49:45. | |
that when a secondary ticket provider with the ticket on sale, | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
they must give the buyer clearer information about the conditions | :49:50. | :49:52. | |
attached to the ticket regarding resale. This is in provision 93 B of | :49:53. | :49:58. | |
the consumer rights act 2015. Duplication can only add to | :49:59. | :50:03. | |
confusion. It can only add confusion, where as we want | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
secondary ticket sellers absolutely clear on this point. This Amendment | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
is in addition to DMM meant of buying tickets to it and maximum | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
amount by a bot illegal. I begin by declaring an interest as | :50:18. | :50:30. | |
co-chair of the all-party Parliamentary group on ticket abuse | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
and pay tribute to my co-chair for the standing work she has done on | :50:36. | :50:41. | |
the subject. In brief, I welcome the Government's amendment and I also | :50:42. | :50:48. | |
welcome their response by the Government to the Waterson review | :50:49. | :50:52. | |
accepting the recommendations in full. The power of God but now to | :50:53. | :50:58. | |
introduce a criminal offence to stop the use of bots to purchase tickets, | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
the provision of funding for enforcement action and I hope that a | :51:03. | :51:08. | |
future government will work to strengthen enforcement and I also | :51:09. | :51:16. | |
look forward to the outcome of the Competition and Markets Authority in | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
their enforcement investigation into suspected breaches of consumer | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
protection law. That is very important because the evidence in | :51:25. | :51:28. | |
the secondary market consistently flouting the law on a daily basis is | :51:29. | :51:34. | |
clear for all to see on many online sites. I welcome the comments made | :51:35. | :51:42. | |
by the Minister saying a ticket should have a unique reference | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
number that people can see when they purchase it. That would make it easy | :51:47. | :51:52. | |
to identify the reseller and it is an important step forward but I | :51:53. | :51:57. | |
would like to ask for one further assurance from my noble friend the | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
Minister. Just now he said the original amendment that I had put | :52:03. | :52:09. | |
forward was not necessary in whole because it included the addition of | :52:10. | :52:17. | |
a requirement to list any terms and conditions and the Government has | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
deleted that contending this is already covered under section 90 of | :52:22. | :52:26. | |
the consumer rights Bill. This is an important issue just to have clarity | :52:27. | :52:36. | |
on. The Government have argued that section 90 which requires online | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
secondary ticket websites to provide information about any restriction | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
which limits use of the ticket to persons of a particular description | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
effectively means that my amendment was unnecessary and duplicative. The | :52:52. | :52:55. | |
understanding of many has spent that section 90 was designed to ensure | :52:56. | :53:01. | |
transparency about any ticket which was for a child or disabled person | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
or had a restricted view and other similar restrictions and was not | :53:07. | :53:09. | |
about the resell terms and conditions which was not subject to | :53:10. | :53:20. | |
did date -- debate. Maybe it would assist if I gave an example to | :53:21. | :53:22. | |
demonstrate this point. Metallica have an upcoming UK tour and is an | :53:23. | :53:32. | |
example why the scope of a consumer rights act targeting secretary | :53:33. | :53:41. | |
websites is necessary. In the instance of Metallica, well-known to | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
many members of the House, although our strict conditions are in place | :53:46. | :53:51. | |
to mitigate ticket tempting with names being printed on tickets to | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
prevent resale, the photo ID of the book must be presented and | :53:56. | :54:02. | |
accompanying guests which must enter at the same time. Tickets are | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
limited at four per credit card and this is clear when you buy a ticket. | :54:08. | :54:16. | |
Do I understand without doubt that my noble friend the Minister is | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
saying that requirement, those terms and conditions making that | :54:21. | :54:24. | |
information is mandatory on the secondary market sites and is fully | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
covered by the existing law? I think that was what he was saying but it | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
would be useful if he could confirm that. Because it would be of | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
assistance to the CMA and to trading standards and not least because it | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
would support and protect the interests of fans of Metallica and | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
indeed the show Hamilton which faces the same challenges. With that | :54:48. | :54:53. | |
requirement for final assurance from my noble friend, could I conclude by | :54:54. | :54:59. | |
thanking noble Lords for the support on this and for the hard work he has | :55:00. | :55:02. | |
undertaken to ensure we have made progress. My lords, can I join with | :55:03. | :55:15. | |
the noble Lloyd Moynihan and I wanted to make a brief intervention | :55:16. | :55:24. | |
because I wanted to congratulate him and Sharon Hodgson in their | :55:25. | :55:28. | |
persistence in achieving what we have achieved so far. I think it is | :55:29. | :55:36. | |
considerable, a great deal of progress has been made in | :55:37. | :55:39. | |
restricting the activities of the secondary ticket sites and we all | :55:40. | :55:46. | |
look forward to the Competition and Markets Authority report which may | :55:47. | :55:51. | |
well suggest further changes to legislation and certainly will give | :55:52. | :55:55. | |
us a good idea as to whether or not the provisions of the consumer | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
rights act are being properly enforced and I think that will be | :56:00. | :56:05. | |
extremely illuminating. I hope the Minister will be able to answer what | :56:06. | :56:11. | |
they noble lord has raised in terms of visit duplication or have we | :56:12. | :56:18. | |
thrown something out through the Government's Commons amendment. I | :56:19. | :56:25. | |
want to end my contribution today by saying that this bill perhaps in the | :56:26. | :56:33. | |
words of my noble friend, we have not taken up the floorboards today, | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
but we have given the Digital economy a decent lick of paint in | :56:39. | :56:44. | |
the process. It is not a very ambitious bill and I think many of | :56:45. | :56:51. | |
us could argue at length as to what other aspects we should have covered | :56:52. | :56:55. | |
in the bill, but I wanted to thank the Minister for his unfailing help | :56:56. | :57:03. | |
for this and the Bill team and I very much welcome not only the | :57:04. | :57:08. | |
movement today which is perceptible, which is not always the case on wash | :57:09. | :57:15. | |
up, but also some of the movement that was made in the course of the | :57:16. | :57:19. | |
Bill and Lord Moynihan talked about the outlawing of mass online | :57:20. | :57:30. | |
purchases but new Ofcom powers in respect of children's programmes, | :57:31. | :57:38. | |
particularly welcome, so there has been movement in this House as a | :57:39. | :57:45. | |
result of amendments in this House and discussions we have held so I am | :57:46. | :57:52. | |
grateful and I look forward to new digital economy bill before too | :57:53. | :58:00. | |
long. This marks another stage in the campaign led by the noble Lord | :58:01. | :58:07. | |
Monaghan but also was led by the Baroness who played a huge part in | :58:08. | :58:17. | |
this. I am sure she is a part of this wherever she is. The noble Lord | :58:18. | :58:23. | |
has mentioned bots and we should not ignore the fact that that will make | :58:24. | :58:27. | |
a huge change to the secondary ticket market. The solution that the | :58:28. | :58:33. | |
Bill team came up with is creative and I hope it works, but the first | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
step has been taken and this will crack down on secondary ticketing. | :58:39. | :58:48. | |
The question the noble Lord Moynihan raised and I hope the Minister will | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
answer, whether or not the conditions apply because they are | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
not drafted quite like that in the original legislation. I also ask | :58:57. | :59:01. | |
about the particular amendment we have got. In its original | :59:02. | :59:11. | |
formulation they inserted the words any unique ticket number. In the | :59:12. | :59:16. | |
final version it says, any unique ticket number that helps the buyer | :59:17. | :59:22. | |
identified the seat. Does that in some sense employ a voluntary | :59:23. | :59:27. | |
obligation because if it does, that would be very unfortunate. Could | :59:28. | :59:33. | |
somebody argue that they did not include the unique ticket number | :59:34. | :59:35. | |
specified because in their beauty did not help the buyer identify a | :59:36. | :59:40. | |
seat or standing area or its location. What is it a variation on | :59:41. | :59:52. | |
the word must that a ticket number could help the ticket buyer identify | :59:53. | :00:03. | |
a seat and location. I am very grateful to especially my noble | :00:04. | :00:07. | |
friend Lord Moynihan and other noble Lords and I think we have to some | :00:08. | :00:15. | |
extent overcome the great disappointment in the previous | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
group. Noble Lords have been clear in this debate that they want to see | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
tough action to deal with a serious problem in the secondary ticket | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
market, and the Government is taking action that is why we have provided | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
funding for national trading standards to take further | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
enforcement action. We have facilitated the industry and the CMA | :00:39. | :00:47. | |
has launched an enforcement investigation into suspected | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
breaches of consumer protection law. I am sure that the noble Lord Lord | :00:53. | :00:59. | |
Moynihan and other noble Lords will continue to keep this issue under | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
the spotlight and will make progress in protecting consumers and | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
supporting our national sporting, Cottle assets. There were some | :01:09. | :01:16. | |
specific questions about that and as my noble friend, the Minister in the | :01:17. | :01:27. | |
Other Place made clear that as far as the Gottman is concerned, the | :01:28. | :01:34. | |
advice is that the consumer rights act, we are firmly of the view that | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
when a secondary ticket seller offers a ticket for sale, they must | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
give the buyer clear information about certain conditions attached to | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
the ticket and when we said it is duplicated, our advice is it is. If | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
I say to my noble friend Lord Moynihan that the notes under | :01:55. | :02:01. | |
section 33 B of the consumer rights act to makes it that the buyer must | :02:02. | :02:09. | |
give information about any restrictions that apply to the | :02:10. | :02:16. | |
ticket. My noble Lord Stevenson asked about the wording of the other | :02:17. | :02:29. | |
bit of... The text, any unique ticket number may help the buyer | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
identified the seat or standing area or its location. Does that may make | :02:33. | :02:39. | |
this voluntarily? The answer is no, it is mandatory in its technical | :02:40. | :02:47. | |
language to link this to such action -- subsection 90. I hope that | :02:48. | :02:55. | |
answers the questions. I wanted to reiterate what the noble Lord | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
Clement Jones mentioned about some of the advantages, some of the games | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
that this bill has had from your Lordships house and the opposition | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
amendments and suggestions in the Other Place as well and I say this | :03:10. | :03:18. | |
to acknowledge their input into it, but also to show that we have been | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
flexible in some things at least, in many things and I think where we | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
have made progress and we have, and these are all areas that were | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
suggested by the opposition in various houses, extension of public | :03:34. | :03:43. | |
lending rights to eat books, children's television accessibility | :03:44. | :03:46. | |
of on demand services including subtitles, we have maintained the | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
capability of having listed events which was first tabled in the | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
Commons. We have Bill limits as we talked about earlier for mobile | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
phones, we have a code of practice for social media, we opened the | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
group and reach, we have Internet filters which protect children and | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
the review of the electronic programme guide although not quite | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
as much as some noble Lords wanted. But also, the opposition has | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
supported things that will make a great advance in the Digital | :04:25. | :04:27. | |
economy. The electronic communications code, a crucial piece | :04:28. | :04:35. | |
of amendment. Age very location for online pornography where we have | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
also listened and adjusted the regime to address the concerns of | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
the opposition. We have extended age verification on on demand television | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
so 18 certificate to you is kept away from children and government | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
data sharing will enable us to deliver better services to the | :04:55. | :05:02. | |
vulnerable and there is a repeal of section 73 of the patents act which | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
I think was accepted. I mentioned my thanks to many noble Lords at third | :05:09. | :05:16. | |
reading, I repeat especially to the noble Lord Stevenson, the noble Lord | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
Clement Jones who headed the various, quite large teams in this | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
House and I am very grateful to all of them and my Lords, I beg to move. | :05:27. | :05:33. | |
The question is that motion have to be agreed to, as many of that | :05:34. | :05:40. | |
opinion is the content. And not content. The content habit. | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
Specified agreement on driving disqualification. My Lords, this | :05:46. | :05:57. | |
statutory instrument is being made to be introduced an agreement to | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
allow for the mutual recognition of driving disqualification is between | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
the United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland. The noble Lords may recall | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
that the previous arrangement on this matter under the 1998 European | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
Convention on driving disqualification is seized to apply | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
in the UK in the 1st of December 2014 when the UK exercise that right | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
to opt out of the these EU police and criminal justice matters under | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
the Treaty of Lisbon. The UK has one of the best road safety records in | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
the world and the cooperation between administrations in Great | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
Britain and Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland will improve it | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
further. This measure is particularly important for the | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
people of Northern Ireland who share a 310 mile long border with Ireland, | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
where around 15,000 people across 300 crossing point on a daily basis | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
travelling between the two. Last year traffic accidents caused 68 | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
people to needlessly lose their lives in Northern Ireland. If a | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
British or other Irish driver receives an instant disqualification | :07:01. | :07:03. | |
from driving while travelling in the Republic of Ireland, see for example | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
for drink-driving or causing a series injury to another road user | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
this disqualification can follow the individual back home. The same is | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
true for Irish drivers disqualified here in Britain or in Northern | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
Ireland. My Lords the treaty that officials have negotiated with the | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
Irish is almost identical to the now-defunct European Convention on | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
driving disqualification is but with one important difference, the | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
convention gave rise to a liberal in its wording whereby some drivers | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
could escape the ban following them home by four -- falsely claiming | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
residents in the country where the offence occurred. We have amended | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
the wording accordingly to close this loophole, ensuring that those | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
unscrupulous individuals trying to escape punishment can no longer do | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
so. This process is straightforward, when a British or Northern Irish | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
court rules that a driver is to be disqualified and the drivers | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
normally resident in Ireland and can hold any particular driving licence, | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
the driver will be able to appeal the decision. If the appeal is heard | :08:09. | :08:14. | |
and rejected or not filed the DVLA will write to the road safety | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
authority in Ireland and inform them that a driver resident in Ireland | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
has been disqualified. It is then that the cases referred to the Irish | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
courts and the judges there can elect to uphold the ban. The same is | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
true of the British and rather manage drivers disqualified in | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
Ireland. These measures are not to be considered as double punishment, | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
drivers do have the right of appeal against the initial ban against the | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
ban applying in the country of normal residence but a driver who | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
commits an offence serious and often edit instant disqualification needs | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
to be taken off the road in the UK and Ireland for the appropriate | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
duration. If the Irish court imposes additional punishments are being | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
forced to reset a driving test or taking an extended driving test we | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
in Great Britain and Northern Ireland will similarly impose | :09:06. | :09:07. | |
additional punishments. I should like to point out for the noble lord | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
that any driving this cold occasions arising from the trotting up a | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
penalty point is not covered in the series of measures still I would | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
share with noble Lords that Ireland and indeed Northern Ireland are | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
continuing to engage on a bilateral basis and continuing the discussion | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
is that the North-South Council for mutual recognition of penalty | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
points. The agreement on mutual recognition of the -- cold occasions | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
in the UK and Ireland will not be affected by the United Kingdom | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
decision to leave the EU, indeed as the Prime Minister herself stated on | :09:42. | :09:43. | |
the 30th of January following a meeting with the chief negotiator | :09:44. | :09:51. | |
for the people of Ireland and Northern Ireland the ability to move | :09:52. | :09:53. | |
freely across the border is an essential part of daily life which | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
is why the tioseach and Primus has been clear that there will be no | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
return to the borders of the past. Economic links with Ireland will be | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
an important priority for the UK in the talks ahead and I look forward | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
to the brief debate this afternoon. Goal the question is that this | :10:14. | :10:21. | |
motion be agreed to. I noticed the noble Lord as referred to the brief | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
this afternoon, I take it that this is a statement of hope on his part, | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
judging by the numbers in the chamber brasserie both Mr Stitt and | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
the debate on driving disqualification regulations 2017 is | :10:35. | :10:43. | |
packing in the noble Lords. I thank the noble Lord for his explanation | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
of the purpose of the regulations which we support in the background | :10:47. | :10:49. | |
to them but I have one or two queries. The note indicates that | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
mutual recognition of driving disqualification between the UK and | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
Ireland was previously in operation between January 2010 and December | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
2014 pursuant to the European convention on driving | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
disqualifications. It then indicates that following the Lisbon Treaty we | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
opted out of the convention from December 2014 as part of the block | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
opt out under the treaty and the memorandum then states that the | :11:21. | :11:23. | |
purpose of this instrument is to specify a bilateral agreement dated | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
30th of October 2015 between the UK and Ireland on the mutual | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
recognition of driving disqualification is imposed by | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
either state for certain specified road traffic offences, but as I | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
understand it and indeed has the Lord Minister has confirmed do not | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
include disqualifications arising from the trotting up process. Now | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
that the Minister has confirmed that that is the case with elation to the | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
potting up process and I invite him to see a little more about why that | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
is the case? I appreciate that in the Commons a government minister | :12:01. | :12:02. | |
said the Northern Ireland and Ireland were engaged in bilateral | :12:03. | :12:09. | |
discussions through the North-South ministerial Council about major | :12:10. | :12:12. | |
recognition of penalty points. But the minister in the Commons added | :12:13. | :12:15. | |
that this was still a work in progress, frankly is this such a big | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
problem that it still cannot be resolved some 18 months after the | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
bilateral agreement dated 30th of October 2015? Even accepting that | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
penalty points are assessed in a different way in Ireland? How much | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
longer is it going to take? The main point I want to clarify is the | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
length of time for which there has been no mutual recognition of | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
driving disqualification between the UK and Ireland. On the understanding | :12:46. | :12:53. | |
that the previous arrangements ceased on the 1st of December 2000 | :12:54. | :13:02. | |
-- 1st of December 2014I want to clarify, I think I know the answer | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
but I want to clarify that they were then not reinstated to the bilateral | :13:06. | :13:11. | |
agreement. And that the impact of that agreement is only be brought | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
into effect by these regulations some 18 months later and some two | :13:16. | :13:22. | |
and a half years after the ceased to apply, which appears to be the | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
situation and I think that is what the noble lord the ministers | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
indicating. If it is that likely to have a half year period which these | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
arrangements have not applied, why has it taken so long since | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
presumably a government have decided well in advance of the 1st of | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
December 2014 opt out state that it would be making the block opt out | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
from the Lisbon Treaty and surely steps that would at least reduce the | :13:51. | :13:53. | |
length of this apparently length the gap could have been put in train | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
much earlier. I would like an extra nation from the government as to why | :14:00. | :14:01. | |
this whole process could not have been expedited somewhat more | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
quickly. It does not look as though it has been given a very high | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
priority, even though it relates to road safety and even though the opt | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
out lead to a weakening of the legislative power on road safety for | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
which there was no supporting evidence will order -- or | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
justification on road safety grounds. Could the noble Lord | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
Minister also see what happened to the mutual wreck nations on | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
disqualifications then in force under the convention when we opted | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
out? Did they remain in force? Or did they then no longer have any | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
legal standing? Finally what is the government estimate of the number of | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
people who could have been disqualified under the mutual | :14:47. | :14:47. | |
recognition agreement arrangements in the not apparently been brought | :14:48. | :14:55. | |
to an end in 2014 with the opt out, but in respect of women has not been | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
possible since then to apply the mutual recognition arrangements | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
because they have no longer been applicable since the opt out? In | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
particular how many people today have we had to have been able to | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
drive in the United Kingdom who would not have been able to do so if | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
we had not opted out of the convention on mutual recognition of | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
driving disqualifications? And how many of those people have | :15:21. | :15:23. | |
subsequently committed road traffic offences in the UK? And if the noble | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
Lord Minister thinks I am asking for somewhat obscure information, I am | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
certainly not. This is about road safety and potentially about people | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
who should not be driving around on the road in the UK and I ask for | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
this information particularly in the light of paragraph 72 of the | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
government's on explanatory memorandum which accepts that it, | :15:47. | :15:52. | |
quote, is important to the UK for reasons of road safety to ensure | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
that drivers so disqualified and Ireland cannot drive on UK roads. It | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
appears as though they have been able to drive on UK roads for the | :16:00. | :16:07. | |
past two and half years. By Lawrence, maybe perhaps I was | :16:08. | :16:10. | |
presumptuous in my opening remarks but from the response perhaps I was | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
right that this would be a short debate. I thank the noble Lord for | :16:17. | :16:24. | |
his support of this measure, he has made a number of important points | :16:25. | :16:35. | |
and I would look -- I would look -- I would not say that the pointy | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
noble Lord has raised our not important. I let myself with his | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
sentiments about the importance -- the importance of road safety. If I | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
could take some of the issues the noble Lord has raised. First of all | :16:47. | :16:55. | |
the issue of why it took so long since 2014, in terms of the EU | :16:56. | :17:02. | |
committed itself the 1988 convention ceased to apply in the EU in | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
December 2016, contempt of the mutual recognition between ourselves | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
and Ireland the only way that we could reintroduce these particular | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
arrangements was by the treaty as the Irish Constitution itself | :17:16. | :17:17. | |
forbids agreements of this nature to be made by items such as in a more | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
year, for example, are similar in formal instruments and therefore it | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
does take time to be agreed and the provisions from the Irish side I | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
believe carried within wider bill that was subsequently passed by the | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
Irish Parliament. On the issue of penalty points, which the noble Lord | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
raised, about not being included, there are different methods of | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
calculating penalty points between the UK and Ireland, so just to give | :17:46. | :17:54. | |
practical examples, it is legally incompatible, for example the UK | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
also counts one we and the Irish Kent and other so the actual | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
enforcement, there are different points apply for different offences. | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
In terms of Northern Ireland specifically, I will get the | :18:11. | :18:13. | |
Northern Irish offers to write further in terms of specific | :18:14. | :18:16. | |
arrangements between Northern Ireland and Ireland. In terms of the | :18:17. | :18:24. | |
numbers of drivers there are around 100 people who are affected from | :18:25. | :18:27. | |
Ireland per year who were banned under these measures in Great | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
Britain and Northern Ireland and an equal number were banned in Ireland. | :18:33. | :18:42. | |
I think I have answered most of all the questions the noble Lord has | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
made but slightly once again emphasise with the noble Lord, he | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
raised the borders of the issue and the fact is that here we are at the | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
last steel terms to speak actually with the government putting this | :18:55. | :18:57. | |
forward again it undermines the importance that we do attach to | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
ensuring that these provisions can be made and that these can be | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
translated into statute. Can I ask before the noble lord sits down, the | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
disqualifications in force under the mutual recognition arrangements that | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
will enforce at the time of the opt out in December 2014, did they | :19:16. | :19:18. | |
continue to apply or did they no longer have any legal status | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
following the opt out? And could the noble Lord Minister for whatever | :19:24. | :19:26. | |
reasons may be just confirm that it has been it in a tuna have your | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
period in which the happy people driving around on the road in the UK | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
who would not have been able to do so if they opt had not been made in | :19:34. | :19:40. | |
2014. On the issue as I said the convention continued in seats to | :19:41. | :19:47. | |
apply in December 20 16 -- December 20 16. On the issue here is about | :19:48. | :19:50. | |
the number of people may not have been driving through any intervening | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
period, I will again get the information in writing to him. But I | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
would emphasise once again that the reason there has been a delay as the | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
season, but the reason is between the 2014 and the date that we are | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
now putting forward was also due to the fact of respecting the other | :20:08. | :20:13. | |
side of the discussion, which was the Irish site, in ensuring that | :20:14. | :20:15. | |
they would go through the appropriate due process to ensure | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
that they could then implement this particular piece of legislation. The | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
question is that this motion be agreed to. As many of that opinion | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
will say content. Content. Country not content, content is added. Lord | :20:32. | :20:38. | |
Clarke of Windermere. My Lords, in moving the motion in my name, I | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
think it is particularly important that the final debate of this | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
Parliament in this house is on a matter of such concern to the | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
British people, our National Health Service. And if there is one group | :20:56. | :21:03. | |
of people who actually are top, always, the approval rate of the | :21:04. | :21:04. | |
British people, it is nurses. It is widely accepted that the | :21:05. | :21:16. | |
national health service provides real value for money. In fact we get | :21:17. | :21:24. | |
health on the cheap in this country. We actually spend less on health | :21:25. | :21:31. | |
than any other member, bar one, of the G-7 nations and I am not sure | :21:32. | :21:38. | |
that that can continue for very much longer. I think we are going to have | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
to spend more on health with our ageing population and with the | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
growth of what is technological possible. It a sense, we have been | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
helped in this debate by a report of a select committee of this House on | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
the long-term stability of the NHS and adult social care. They draw to | :22:01. | :22:07. | |
our attention how we failed over the years to have long-term planning for | :22:08. | :22:14. | |
the way in which we organise staff and of course we must remember there | :22:15. | :22:23. | |
are approximately 150,000 people who work for the health service. It is | :22:24. | :22:29. | |
indeed a fascinating organisation. You have this labour-intensive | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
organisation which nursing in one way implies, yet it is married and | :22:34. | :22:43. | |
works alongside high, cutting edge technology and science and it works | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
and we must continue to ensure that it works, but the key is actually | :22:49. | :22:56. | |
the staff. The staff at every level. And I think anyone who follows the | :22:57. | :23:05. | |
press, who talks to doctors, talks to nurses, talks to the other | :23:06. | :23:11. | |
professionals will know that our health service, our national Health | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
Service is actually in deep trouble and is only functioning safely due | :23:17. | :23:26. | |
to the work level of the staff and the intense dedication they have | :23:27. | :23:32. | |
towards the service in which they work, but that, cannot continue | :23:33. | :23:41. | |
indefinitely. The Royal colleges are telling us of nursing, midwifery and | :23:42. | :23:48. | |
all the medical disciplines are telling us that we are getting | :23:49. | :23:51. | |
towards a breaking point. This strain is intense, the morale is | :23:52. | :23:59. | |
low. If we just take nursing, there are currently and I think there is | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
no disagreement with this about 24,000 nurses short. That doesn't | :24:05. | :24:11. | |
only affect our National Health Service but it affects something | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
else, which is a big issue at the moment and this is the after-care | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
service, because quite frankly I have had a number of care providers, | :24:23. | :24:29. | |
nursing home providers contacting me and saying they have had to close | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
beds because they cannot get nurses to staff them. And we tend to | :24:35. | :24:41. | |
neglect that I dress mention it in passing today, because I want to | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
concentrate on the whole service. Indeed gather the Government have | :24:46. | :24:51. | |
had a report which is not yet public, which was available to them | :24:52. | :24:58. | |
in March which suggested on a worse figure scenario, I have the size | :24:59. | :25:04. | |
that, that by the early 20s, we would not be 24,000 nurses short but | :25:05. | :25:12. | |
we would be 42,000 nurses short. And all this is not helped. The morale | :25:13. | :25:20. | |
is not helped by the fact that nurses who are not well paid to | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
start with but are highly qualified, all the nurses are now graduates, | :25:25. | :25:31. | |
they have got to do professional work, increasingly they are doing | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
the work that was traditionally done by doctors. They are able to do it, | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
they are skilled to do it and we benefit greatly, but the 1% annual | :25:40. | :25:49. | |
pay which they have been... They have had to accept since 2010 is | :25:50. | :25:57. | |
having a massive effect on morale. Especially when people are having to | :25:58. | :26:04. | |
work so hard. We only get by because we imported nurses from overseas. We | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
have traditionally done that. I am not just blaming the Government in | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
this case, but the problem is now acute. Because of those nurses from | :26:14. | :26:25. | |
overseas, 20,000 of them originate from European Union countries and in | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
spite of efforts and pleading by myself and other people, we cannot | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
get the Government to commit to those 20,000 people who work so hard | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
in our National Health Service that they should be allowed to stay in | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
Britain. That would be easy to do because all we need to do is | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
actually to tweak the residency rules and that could be done without | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
causing any problems, yet it would be of great benefit in retaining | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
those nurses. I do believe we should of that -- offered them permanent | :27:02. | :27:08. | |
residency as they have dedicated so much effort to providing health care | :27:09. | :27:14. | |
to our population, but at the end of the day, we must train more | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
home-grown nurses. The supply is there because for every person who | :27:20. | :27:27. | |
has accepted onto a nursing course at the University, there is twice as | :27:28. | :27:35. | |
many people applying, so there is the quality and quantity of | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
individuals who want to train as nurses and the reason why they are | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
not being trained as nurses is because the Government have insisted | :27:44. | :27:49. | |
on a cap on the numbers. The universities are not allowed to | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
accept more nurses than has been agreed with the Government and I | :27:55. | :28:01. | |
think by imposing this cap we actually are exacerbating the | :28:02. | :28:07. | |
problem and actually, and I got to challenge the Minister on this, it | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
does come to the point that we are only really talking about saving | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
money. That is what is dominating the Government's approach to the | :28:17. | :28:24. | |
training of nurses. Now, just to re-capital, the system that has been | :28:25. | :28:30. | |
developed, the bursary system meant that nurses who went into training | :28:31. | :28:37. | |
didn't actually pay fees and the quid pro quo was that they then went | :28:38. | :28:45. | |
on and worked in the care services or the National Health Service. That | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
system worked well and was fully subscribed. But under the proposals | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
we are debating today, these individuals will have to pay ?9,000 | :28:54. | :29:01. | |
per year in fees for three years, which with their living costs mean | :29:02. | :29:07. | |
that the nurses enter a profession not well paid, with ?50,000 minimum | :29:08. | :29:16. | |
hanging on their shoulders. And I don't think that is a very sensible | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
way of approaching it, because we have to accept that the nursing | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
students courses at universities are very different from most courses. It | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
isn't just lectures and library work. At least half the time of | :29:34. | :29:40. | |
nurses in training is spent on the job. It is spent on clinical | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
training and indeed in most hospitals, most patients wouldn't | :29:47. | :29:52. | |
actually really determine which was a student nurse and which was a | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
qualified nurse, because the student nurses are actually doing the work | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
of the trade nurses as well except in a few technical specialist areas. | :30:03. | :30:13. | |
It is ironic, yes... Could he tell the House his point about the number | :30:14. | :30:20. | |
of nurses who previously got bursaries and his point about the | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
financial controls on bursaries, could he tell the House what | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
proportion of those applying were unable to get bursaries and | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
therefore unable to get training places? As I understand the question | :30:33. | :30:41. | |
that you were not allowed anybody who was on the course was accepted | :30:42. | :30:48. | |
onto the course got a bursary, so they've all got the bursary, as I | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
understand the situation. I am pretty sure I am right on that, but | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
the point I was making about the courses being different was not only | :30:59. | :31:01. | |
that it was more intensive and work on the job, it was also longer. The | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
average course length at the universities for nursing, midwives | :31:07. | :31:14. | |
and allied health professionals is 39 weeks a year, much longer than | :31:15. | :31:20. | |
the average student course, so it is a different course, they have no | :31:21. | :31:27. | |
opportunity, or little opportunity, to do any extracurricular work | :31:28. | :31:33. | |
because of the nature of the job. Yet while they are working on wards, | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
as I have said, they work as the team. Now, in essence what the | :31:38. | :31:44. | |
Government are insisting, and I think this is the first time for | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
decades they are actually insisting that the nurses pay for working in | :31:49. | :31:57. | |
the health service. They are paying their ?9,000 a year to work as | :31:58. | :32:04. | |
unpaid nurses and I think that is actually scandalous. Absolutely | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
scandalous! Because even before the new system came in, if we go back 50 | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
years, you were accepted on a nursing course, you went to the | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
hospitals, you were trained there, it was a mixture of rocks in the | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
hospital and also working on the wards as well, that is how it | :32:25. | :32:27. | |
traditionally went, but the nurses did not have to pay to actually | :32:28. | :32:35. | |
perform those tasks and I do think it is outrageous that this | :32:36. | :32:39. | |
Government is insisting that the nurses should actually pay for their | :32:40. | :32:46. | |
own training. Now, the Government's justification for this change is to | :32:47. | :32:49. | |
increase the number of nurses being trained. That is something that we | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
all welcome, we all want the number of nurses to be increased, it would | :32:55. | :33:01. | |
help in so many ways. I mean, virtually every hospital now | :33:02. | :33:09. | |
survives by using agency nurses, paying far, far more in hourly pay | :33:10. | :33:16. | |
them the NHS staff nurses get paid and we could save billions of pounds | :33:17. | :33:24. | |
if we had sufficient nurses to staff our NHS and our after-care service, | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
so what I am arguing actually makes financial sense, but the point the | :33:29. | :33:37. | |
Government are making is that they are prepared, if nurses pay for | :33:38. | :33:40. | |
their own education and this is perhaps the point that the noble | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
Lord was making, if they paid, they would lift the cap. So the | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
universities could train as many students as they wanted and that is | :33:51. | :33:56. | |
something I hope works. I want the system to work, but then become to | :33:57. | :34:03. | |
the problem, it is easy enough for the universities to expand their | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
lectures, to provide their library facilities, but the difficulty comes | :34:09. | :34:18. | |
when the health service has gone to provide their mentors, the Chuter is | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
to provide the practical oversight of the students when they are | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
working on the wards and in clinical situations, and there is no | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
provision as I can see by the Government to provide extra money to | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
hospital trusts to actually perform that critical part. At least half | :34:37. | :34:46. | |
the part of the cost of nursing. So I believe that this proposal, which | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
I want to work, I think it is highly risky. I think when you look at the | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
fact that we are dependent on nurses from the European Union and if you | :34:58. | :35:05. | |
look at the latest figures, you find that there has been a 90% for in the | :35:06. | :35:12. | |
registration of nurses from the European Union countries by December | :35:13. | :35:20. | |
of last year, a 90% drop. It is an ominous sign and then we have the | :35:21. | :35:27. | |
figures from the Government and they showed that the number of applicants | :35:28. | :35:35. | |
was down by 23%. I accept the Government point these were | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
applicants, they were not people who had actually been accepted on the | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
course, but what worries me is that if this follows through and if the | :35:48. | :35:54. | |
Government does not get students prepared to roll at universities, we | :35:55. | :36:00. | |
are going to find we are making no inroads at all into this shortage of | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
24,000 nurses. And I believe that the government | :36:05. | :36:16. | |
approach is a high risk approach, when you have such a large shortage | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
there must be other ways of dealing with it. Why can't they just, for a | :36:22. | :36:29. | |
number of years, lift the cap on universities and say, train as many | :36:30. | :36:36. | |
as you possibly can. Why don't we even say, if the government are not | :36:37. | :36:39. | |
prepared to go that way, why don't they say, look, nursing students who | :36:40. | :36:46. | |
actually then go on and spent a number of years working in the NHS, | :36:47. | :36:52. | |
low paid as it is, that we should say to them, we will write off your | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
Jewish and fees? That -- we wouldn't write off your tuition fees. I do | :36:59. | :37:06. | |
not believe we can risk the government proposal. I believe it is | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
high risk and that is why I feel it should have been debated and is | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
being debated in this time and I think it is interesting and | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
important that we have a full debate on this issue. The question is that | :37:20. | :37:29. | |
this motion be agreed to. I declare my interests as I am on the register | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
and I believe that this afternoon I am the only registered nurse in the | :37:35. | :37:40. | |
house. Nursing is the largest profession in the UK, and some half | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
a million people are only professional register. It is vital | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
that the international shortage of nurses and allied health professions | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
is recognised and that more investment is given to meet the | :37:54. | :38:00. | |
demand for health care the future. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
Windermere, that the need to spend more on health and social care in | :38:06. | :38:08. | |
the United Kingdom is essential but not necessarily with your solution. | :38:09. | :38:16. | |
There needs to be at least three pathways to becoming a registered | :38:17. | :38:23. | |
nurse. We have supported as a profession the introduction of an | :38:24. | :38:28. | |
associate nurse wrote, which issued enable people to be paid while | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
learning and working and proceed ultimately if they so wish to train | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
for the register through a sophisticated apprenticeship style | :38:39. | :38:44. | |
right. We have the pilots in progress at the moment. The second | :38:45. | :38:51. | |
important developments in NHS's recent five-year plan is in | :38:52. | :38:55. | |
principle support for a graduate entry route similar to teach first | :38:56. | :39:02. | |
to be known as nurse first, this is likely to be piloted in mental | :39:03. | :39:09. | |
health and learning disability branches this autumn and would | :39:10. | :39:11. | |
provide an alternative route into nursing. And the third-rate which | :39:12. | :39:18. | |
the majority of students follow -- the third route, his a three-year | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
university programme with clinical placements both within the NHS and | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
other health care providers and the emphasis on hospital placements is | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
not nearly as important at the moment as the need to ensure that | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
students have experience in community settings and care homes, | :39:40. | :39:45. | |
many of which are in the independent sector. Because that is where a lot | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
of people are cared for now, as well as at home. I therefore believe that | :39:50. | :39:58. | |
rather than reinstate the bursary where we know that a lot of people | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
applied to go to university because the bursary was there and we had a | :40:03. | :40:10. | |
very high dropout in year one, and I was a day when that was happening so | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
I speak from experience, or someone who completed the course but never | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
had any intention of clinical nursing but wanted to go into a car | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
or perhaps become common air stewardess, neither of which I think | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
is a bad thing, but they have used the bursary structure to get the | :40:29. | :40:31. | |
degree as an entry into those programmes rather than an intention | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
to necessarily spend a lifetime of caregiving. So I think it would be | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
preferable to invest in the three methods of education leading to | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
registration, but seriously consider giving a bursary for the third year | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
of training when I would agree with the noble Lord most students give a | :40:52. | :40:57. | |
huge amount to the NHS in that third year. And often really pretty | :40:58. | :41:05. | |
indistinguishable in the final six months from a registered nurse. I | :41:06. | :41:12. | |
also fully support the concept that we ought to consider forgiveable | :41:13. | :41:19. | |
student loans following a period of employment in NHS on qualifying, | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
rather like that which is required -- that is granted to some nurses | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
and medics sponsored by the forces during the education provision. The | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
other thing that I want to draw the house's attention to is that there | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
are half a million nurses in this country, in the four countries that | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
make up the United Kingdom and we have invested very little in return | :41:43. | :41:44. | |
to nursing programmes and encouraging them back to work and | :41:45. | :41:50. | |
that might be the fastest route to get some or registered nurses back | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
into practice. Finally I want to support the concept that you just | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
addressed, that public sector salaries have been significantly | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
tightened in the last few years and there's a definite case that initial | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
starting salaries in the NHS for and allied health professionals should | :42:11. | :42:17. | |
be increased to recognise that they will be expected to repay the two | :42:18. | :42:26. | |
bones as from 2020. -- repay their student loans from 2020. As a woman | :42:27. | :42:30. | |
I get very upset at the idea that many nurses will not have to pay | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
back the student loan because they do not care very much. That is not | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
the right approach. I urge any future governments to invest further | :42:41. | :42:43. | |
in health and social care in order to be train to retain and recruit | :42:44. | :42:51. | |
health care professionals. Currently, the ratio of women to men | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
in nursing is named: one and has remained unchanged for many years. | :42:57. | :43:04. | |
-- is 9-1. We're spending significant time and money on | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
recruiting female engineers, perhaps we should do similarly to encourage | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
more men into the allied health professions than nursing. I do | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
expect that this will only be possible if there is fair | :43:19. | :43:25. | |
remuneration for nursing work in funding for continued professional | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
development as currently happens in medicine. I believe the issues I | :43:30. | :43:37. | |
have outlined would be a more strategic approach to the challenges | :43:38. | :43:40. | |
we face than the straightforward introduction bursaries in the first | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
two years of university programmes leading to registration. I realised | :43:45. | :43:53. | |
that members opposite anxious to get away to campaign for the reader in | :43:54. | :44:00. | |
the forthcoming election. But 20 years ago as a junior minister | :44:01. | :44:12. | |
responsible for health, I was asked to sponsor something called Project | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
2000 and the move that all nurses should be graduates. I thought it | :44:18. | :44:20. | |
was a rather silly idea. I could see and there might be a case for having | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
some health professionals who had degrees, but getting rid of what was | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
the old State registered nurse system seems to me to be a huge | :44:31. | :44:37. | |
mistake. The chief nurse was a particularly formidable person at my | :44:38. | :44:39. | |
Secretary of State did not agree with me. And I have to say that over | :44:40. | :44:43. | |
the last 20 years I think those people who argued that we did | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
actually needs people who would do perhaps the less, and not the less | :44:48. | :44:53. | |
important, actually some of the most important but more menial tasks, the | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
ending of bedpans and spending time with patients, the general care that | :44:58. | :45:03. | |
was so much a part of the health service, that he did not have too | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
have a university degree in order to achieve that. And I very much hope | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
that the government will think about that again. Baroness Watkins is | :45:12. | :45:20. | |
almost got the invoice you saying about creating, and I do not mean | :45:21. | :45:24. | |
that in a red sense, I mean she has almost got there in tens of offering | :45:25. | :45:27. | |
a path forward that might address this problem but I do not believe | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
that everyone needs to be graduates and the reason that I interrupted | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
the noble Lord to ask him how many of the people who applied to become | :45:35. | :45:43. | |
nurses actually ended up doing a degree and ended up as nurses is | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
because I knew the answer to my own question, which is that it is a | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
small proportion. What the government, and I thought his speech | :45:52. | :45:57. | |
contained a number of very important points, with which I agree, we are | :45:58. | :46:01. | |
going to train more nurses as a result of leaving the European | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
Union, that is clearly important. We are going to train more nurses | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
because of the demands upon the health service. But it seems to me | :46:11. | :46:13. | |
that what the government is proposing in these regulations, | :46:14. | :46:16. | |
which is to remove the cap and to provide the funding for a scheme of | :46:17. | :46:23. | |
loans, will provide for that and is addressing the problem. Now whether | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
the government are prepared to consider baroness Watkinss and Noble | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
suggestion that there may be a case at a stage in versus careers when | :46:33. | :46:38. | |
they have served the health service for a longer period for forgiving | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
the loans, that is another question. And certainly in the economic | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
affairs committee when we looked at the representations that we had | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
lunch in London I am not surprised, I would not be surprised if that | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
actually does not represent a better deal for the taxpayer than | :46:58. | :47:00. | |
continuing with the repayment where people are on not substantial | :47:01. | :47:06. | |
salaries. I very much hope, while I think that the noble Lord has | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
identified some real issues, I very much hope that people are not | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
actually going to vote for this motion which would actually says is | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
backwards and not provide for the opportunity which it provides for | :47:20. | :47:21. | |
more nurses to be trained and brought into our health service, and | :47:22. | :47:28. | |
I hope also that the government will consider whether it is absolutely | :47:29. | :47:31. | |
necessary for people to have university degrees in order to be | :47:32. | :47:34. | |
able to perform message at ease in our health service. My lord in the | :47:35. | :47:43. | |
absence of a voice in the opposition benches let me briefly intervened. I | :47:44. | :47:46. | |
shall declare interest as a visiting professor at Kings College in London | :47:47. | :47:53. | |
which does work through Guy 's and St Thomas 's. Lord Clarke was right | :47:54. | :47:56. | |
about the importance of nurses, and also the importance of the lack of a | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
supply, suitable supply of nurses in the old regime. We know from | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
baroness Watkins, a very constructive intervention, but I | :48:06. | :48:10. | |
would like to see to Lord Clarke, nurses should not be worried about a | :48:11. | :48:17. | |
model of fees and loans with graduate repayment. We went through | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
all of these concerns when we shifted mainstream education into | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
fees and loans in the first year there was a decline in applications, | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
but is an assisted and is understood that they were not paying upfront, | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
it was a repayment scheme where they would only pay back if they started | :48:34. | :48:39. | |
any more than 21,000 per year and through PAYE, in other words the | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
so-called debt was nothing like a bank overdraft credit card debt, it | :48:45. | :48:47. | |
was repayment through the income tax system if you are earning enough to | :48:48. | :48:53. | |
pay. That tackled the concerns and since then we have seen an | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
increasing number of students applying for university. And the | :48:58. | :48:59. | |
second point I would like to make follows an from the excellent | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
intervention from my noble friend Lord Forsyth. The reason we are | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
short of nurses is successive governments have been rationing the | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
number of nurses. Successive governments have been rationing the | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
numbers of nurses because nursing places have been financed out of now | :49:17. | :49:22. | |
-- public expenditure in the way to control public expenditure was to | :49:23. | :49:26. | |
control masses. That is why back in 2004-2005 we were funding 25 | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
thousand nurses the year and that has been under steady decline to | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
around 17,000 now. There is no prospect of any government if we | :49:38. | :49:41. | |
look at that evidence as to what has happened in the past decade, of | :49:42. | :49:44. | |
having more nurse places under the old system. A crucial part of these | :49:45. | :49:51. | |
reforms is to remove the cap on places so we will have more nurse | :49:52. | :49:54. | |
places under the new system. So what this new system does is it actually | :49:55. | :50:00. | |
delivers more cash to cover their living costs for nurses during the | :50:01. | :50:06. | |
nursing education. It delivers more money parent nurse for universities | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
providing nurse education through the fees and loans system. And it | :50:12. | :50:17. | |
removes the cap and provides the NHS with more trained nurses in total. | :50:18. | :50:22. | |
That is a construct of reform for the NHS, it is progress on tackling | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
the long-standing problems -- in which Lord Clarke drew attention to | :50:28. | :50:30. | |
and it is why have to say this motion is misconceived. This is a | :50:31. | :50:37. | |
terrible time for the government to undertake a highly risky revision of | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
the funding of student nurses. We are already short of nurses as Lord | :50:43. | :50:45. | |
Clarke has told us and of course midwives as well and the imminent | :50:46. | :50:49. | |
Brexit has already made that worse with as we have heard in 80% drop in | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
the number of applications from EEA nurses. In addition to that we're | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
losing nurses due overwork and poor morale. | :51:00. | :51:05. | |
The Government focused on implementation rather than looking | :51:06. | :51:10. | |
carefully at alternative ways of funding nurse training to ensure | :51:11. | :51:15. | |
fairness and a stable increase supply of nurses. The excellent | :51:16. | :51:20. | |
speech by the noble lady Baroness Morgan Kings clearly demonstrates | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
that there are many different ways of doing that and I am not convinced | :51:26. | :51:32. | |
that the Government has taken all those proposals into account. It | :51:33. | :51:36. | |
really ought to stop in its tracks at the moment and look at all those | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
alternatives before going ahead with this regulation. We are still | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
waiting for information about how or whether the practice placements will | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
be funded wherever that is, whether in the NHS or the care services. As | :51:51. | :51:58. | |
we have heard, nurses have to do 2300 hours in a clinical placement. | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
This requires considerable resorts input from the hospitals or care | :52:04. | :52:09. | |
placements. Hospitals most of which are already in deficit and without | :52:10. | :52:12. | |
proper resources there is no way the system can accommodate 10,000 extra | :52:13. | :52:19. | |
student nurses even if as we all hope the Government is right and | :52:20. | :52:22. | |
universities to offer that many additional places. I do understand | :52:23. | :52:27. | |
where the noble Lord Willets is coming from and clearly the tuition | :52:28. | :52:37. | |
fees and loan system has not put off students in most university courses. | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
But nurses are different from other students, so be it is not a given | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
that they would respond like students on other courses to the | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
need to take out loans and pay fees. They are more predominantly from | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
lower socio economical groups and they have a higher proportions of | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
mature students with family commitments. They spent nearly half | :53:00. | :53:05. | |
their course times in hospital placements and have a high number of | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
contact how was that other students and that makes it more difficult for | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
them to get a part-time job to fund their living expenses as other | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
students can do. Because they are not highly paid, it has been | :53:19. | :53:21. | |
calculating that the vast majority of them will not have paid off their | :53:22. | :53:29. | |
student loans over 30 years so that they will be written off. It is a | :53:30. | :53:38. | |
fact. Some also have other student loans from other courses that they | :53:39. | :53:42. | |
have previously undertaken, so this strategy of the Government will not | :53:43. | :53:48. | |
necessarily save much money. It will shift the dirt off the books which I | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
suppose was the objective. I do hope the Government have been hasty. | :53:54. | :54:00. | |
Instead of removing the bursaries we need a thoroughgoing investigation | :54:01. | :54:03. | |
into the factors affecting nurse recruitment and retention, because | :54:04. | :54:08. | |
the latter is a very portable factor. It is no use filling up the | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
bucket if there is a hole in the bottom and in this case there is. | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
Retention of Judith nurses to the end of their causes poor and | :54:19. | :54:22. | |
retention of nurses and midwives beyond the first two years after | :54:23. | :54:28. | |
qualification is also poor. So not for the first time do I asked the | :54:29. | :54:34. | |
minister whether he will ensure that data is collected in a consistent | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
way so that we can identify those settings that are good at keeping | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
their students, their nurses and their midwives and those that are | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
not. We can then learn from best practice and spread it. The impact | :54:48. | :54:53. | |
of the Government's plans on admissions, student numbers and | :54:54. | :54:57. | |
quality and on the stability of the qualified workforce is yet unclear | :54:58. | :55:01. | |
and the Government has not said how it intends to monitor this impact on | :55:02. | :55:08. | |
the workforce. Without a solid evidence base, this policy should | :55:09. | :55:13. | |
not go ahead. Therefore I support the regret motion and call on the | :55:14. | :55:18. | |
Government to think again. When I was granted a topical question on | :55:19. | :55:25. | |
this subject for which I am very much appreciated, when I was granted | :55:26. | :55:34. | |
that topical question, the noble Lord chose to characterise my | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
opposition to the Government's damaging proposals as a side I did | :55:40. | :55:43. | |
not support the policy of student loans. Wench to judgments were first | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
introduced by the Labour government, both studying for health professions | :55:48. | :55:54. | |
were excluded. As tuition fees rose, successive governments maintained | :55:55. | :56:01. | |
that exclusion and we don't need to ask why, because Lord Clarke and | :56:02. | :56:07. | |
other speakers in this debate have made it clear that students building | :56:08. | :56:14. | |
a career in those professions are quite unlike the wider student | :56:15. | :56:18. | |
population. The most revealing statistic on that is that 41% of | :56:19. | :56:24. | |
them in those categories are over 25 compared to 80% of the total student | :56:25. | :56:30. | |
population, that sets them apart -- 18%. They are unable to support | :56:31. | :56:37. | |
themselves as other students can do during their studies because of the | :56:38. | :56:45. | |
hours required of students in the health professions. None of this was | :56:46. | :56:49. | |
taken into account by the Government, a government anxious to | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
make savings and despite having those facts, they have declined to | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
alter the cause they have set on. The nursing workforce already has | :56:59. | :57:05. | |
severe shortages, of 225000 and and we know fewer nurses from the EU are | :57:06. | :57:12. | |
coming to work and by 2020, nearly half the workforce will be eligible | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
for retirement. What does the Government do, it ends the | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
established practice of providing nursing students with bursaries and | :57:21. | :57:23. | |
tells them to take out loans that will leave them with debts of at | :57:24. | :57:30. | |
least ?50,000. I heard what the noble Lord said. But it is | :57:31. | :57:37. | |
nonetheless the fact that those seeking to study for nursing, | :57:38. | :57:40. | |
midwifery and allied professions on the basis they would have had a | :57:41. | :57:48. | |
personally, that is a shock but it is not the case. -- bursary. This is | :57:49. | :57:54. | |
a sudden shock brought about by the Government and it will have a | :57:55. | :57:56. | |
Dutchman told effect on those wanting to study. When ever we need | :57:57. | :58:02. | |
the NHS we like to think it is there for us but we are anxious when loved | :58:03. | :58:07. | |
ones need to spend time in hospital and we require adequate nurses for | :58:08. | :58:15. | |
that treatment. I have to say the Government is failing the NHS and a | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
further example was provided to date when councils opinion in response to | :58:20. | :58:25. | |
my noble friend Lord Hunt stated that the Government is acting | :58:26. | :58:31. | |
illegally by not compelling NHS England to treat the required 92% of | :58:32. | :58:37. | |
patients within 18 weeks. Lord Hunt has submitted a motion which appears | :58:38. | :58:44. | |
on page four and I think that highlights the fact that the | :58:45. | :58:46. | |
Government are cavalier in the way in which they are allowing patients | :58:47. | :58:53. | |
to be treated. The latest applications for nursing courses | :58:54. | :59:00. | |
last year started in September, they are down by some 23% and the latest | :59:01. | :59:06. | |
data available for March shows that that decline is continuing and | :59:07. | :59:10. | |
although there is still a ratio of 2-1 applicants to training places, | :59:11. | :59:15. | |
the fall in applicants could compromise the quality of | :59:16. | :59:21. | |
candidates. More over it could deter prospective students when they | :59:22. | :59:24. | |
understand the applications of the student loan system. The general | :59:25. | :59:30. | |
secretary of the Royal College of Nursing said, the nursing workforce | :59:31. | :59:35. | |
is in crisis and as fewer nurses graduate, it will exacerbate an | :59:36. | :59:38. | |
unsustainable situation. The outlook is bleak. Those are her words. The | :59:39. | :59:47. | |
National Health Service peer-reviewed body said the removal | :59:48. | :59:51. | |
of bursaries could also have a disruptive impact on the supply or | :59:52. | :59:56. | |
quality of supply and the removal of the bursary could have an unsettling | :59:57. | :00:03. | |
effect on the number and quality of applicants training. Why is it the | :00:04. | :00:08. | |
Government is certain it has a monopoly on wisdom? We should also | :00:09. | :00:14. | |
ask the question as to why they are doing it? The Government has said | :00:15. | :00:22. | |
firstly it will add 10,000 nurses up to 2020, but far from a courage in | :00:23. | :00:29. | |
-- encouraging additional placements, cutting bursaries will | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
discourage many because of the fear of debt and the House of Commons | :00:34. | :00:36. | |
Public Accounts Committee said in its report that the changes could | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
have a negative effect an impact on both the overall number of | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
applicants and on certain groups such as mature students or those | :00:47. | :00:53. | |
with children. A student numbers are not there, higher institutions will | :00:54. | :01:00. | |
be worse off because of the decline. The Government's proposal also | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
stated it will ensure sustainable funding for universities but has yet | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
there is no indication of an increase in funding. A study by | :01:09. | :01:20. | |
London economics found that higher education institutions will be worse | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
off by around 50 million per cohort. Half of this will be as a result of | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
a decline in student numbers and there is able danger that some | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
universities may decide to stop running some health-related courses | :01:34. | :01:35. | |
if they are deemed unsustainable. The Government have also said | :01:36. | :01:52. | |
scrapping NHS bursaries will save the Treasury money but there will be | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
no cost savings because most nurses will not earn enough to repay the | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
loan and the decline in numbers entering nursing will increase | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
agency nursing staffing costs. London economics estimated that with | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
increased agency costs, there will be more than an additional ?100 | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
million cost by trusts per cohort, wiping out any potential savings. | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
These proposal should not be preceded with at least until the gum | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
has published the results of the second stage of its consultation. It | :02:26. | :02:34. | |
has been delayed and will not see it now until the other side of the | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
election and that is unsatisfactory and it is confirmation of what is no | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
more than a leap into the dark. That is no way to treat the career | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
development of some of our most wonderful public servants. These | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
changes are high risk at the time as the NHS is ill-equipped to cope with | :02:55. | :03:02. | |
some risk. Can I just end with a comment in response to the | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
dismissive jibe by Lord Forsyth. I say to him, yes, we are keen to get | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
on came in and that is what we will do to encourage the people to elect | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
a government that will properly fund and value the NHS and its staff. | :03:18. | :03:28. | |
Bring it on. Can I first thank all noble Lords who have contributed to | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
this debate. Also to congratulate the noble Lord Clarke on his | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
prescience in scheduling this debate several weeks ago. He clearly has | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
admirers in the Leader of the Opposition's office. | :03:43. | :03:53. | |
While the noble Lord may have been prescient and influential, I fear on | :03:54. | :04:01. | |
this issue he and the Labour Party and Lib Dems are wrong. They are | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
wrong because the new system we are introducing for student nurses | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
matches that experienced by other undergraduate students, a system | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
that has been a primary driver of a bigger scansion of higher education | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
and improve participation among the disadvantage and wrong because of | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
the impact of Brexit. I thought the Labour Party was in favour of | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
leaving the EU although having heard the policy, but is anyone's guess | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
but I can reassure the House that this Government not only understands | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
the difficult choices that need to be made to ensure our NHS has the | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
resources it needs to thrive, but it will be a... I would like to join | :04:45. | :04:56. | |
other noble Lords in paying tribute to the work that more than 2.5 | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
million people working in the NHS do every day often in challenging | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
conditions. They represent values to which we all aspire, service, | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
hardware, can passion and dine inspiration. They cannot be a person | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
in this country who cannot give them thanks for their expertise and | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
commitment. This Government is taking action to support that | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
workforce so that it can deliver excellent patient care through | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
flexible working, good leadership and Eucharist raptures. As part of | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
these changes from August 2017, new full-time students studying nursing, | :05:34. | :05:40. | |
midwifery will have access to the standard student support system for | :05:41. | :05:42. | |
tuition fee loans and maintenance loans. These reforms will enable | :05:43. | :05:48. | |
more money to go into front-line services around ?1 billion a year to | :05:49. | :05:50. | |
be reinvested in the NHS. In addition they help secure the | :05:51. | :05:59. | |
future supply of nurses and health care professionals. First by | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
removing the cap that has been identified by my noble friend is | :06:04. | :06:06. | |
being a feature of the current system so that more applicants can | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
gain a place in the universities will be able to deliver up to 10,000 | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
additional training places. The changes also enable a typical | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
provision of 25% increase in living costs a port for health care | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
students and it puts universities in a stronger financial and competitive | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
position so they are able to invest sustainably for the long-term. The | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
noble lady baroness Watkins in her excellent and well-informed speech | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
also pointed out that it removes a perverse incentive of the current | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
system where it is the sole degree that is subsidised in that way and | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
that brings with it a number of benefits as well, including I should | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
say addressing the issue identified by the noble lady around retention | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
on courses of people who are fully committed to taking part in a | :06:54. | :07:00. | |
nursing career. Successive governments and reforms to student | :07:01. | :07:09. | |
finance have seen methods put in place the reforms should finance. | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
This is in more people than ever to benefit from university education | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
and has spread firmly costs throughout society at large that the | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
taxpayer and the individual to benefit themselves from the degree | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
course. As a consequence as advantage people are now 43% more | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
likely to go into university than in 2009. And for the last application | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
cycle the entry rate for 18-year-olds from disadvantaged | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
backgrounds is at a record high, and 18.5% in 2016 compared with 13.6% in | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
the last year of the Labour government in 2009. That is what we | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
mean by country of the -- country that works for everyone. It is | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
because of these positive effects that moves towards a low a system | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
have been supported by parties across the house. They were to just | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
a Labour government, extended by a conservative model democrat | :08:02. | :08:03. | |
government and taken on by this Conservative government. Turning to | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
applications financing the midwifery courses the latest data published by | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
UCAS shows a 22% fall in the number of applicants to nursing and | :08:14. | :08:16. | |
midwifery courses in England impaired to the same point in the | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
2016 application cycle. As my noble friend pointed out, in previous | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
cases when fees have been introduced application numbers have gone down | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
but rebranded in future years. The same UCAS data also shows that since | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
January there have been over 3000 additional applicants for nursing | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
and midwifery places, taking the current total to over 40,000 | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
applicants for around 23,000 places in England. The chair of the Council | :08:45. | :08:51. | |
of deans for help -- for health has commented on the situation saying | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
that it is to be expected that there would be fewer applications in the | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
first year following the changes but we would expect this to pick up in | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
future years. The chief nursing officer Jane Cummings has said that | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
despite the drop the level applications received suggest that | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
at a national level we are still on track to meet this target in England | :09:12. | :09:14. | |
although we need to monitor this very carefully. We are also | :09:15. | :09:17. | |
introducing a number of opportunities to support future | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
applicants, including additional routes to become a graduate nurse. | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
Based on all the information available, health education England | :09:26. | :09:27. | |
is confident that they will still fill the required number of training | :09:28. | :09:34. | |
places for the NHS in England. Turning to the issues raised around | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
Brexit, future rate is first and support after the UK leaves the EU | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
will need to be considered as part of the wider discussions as to the | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
UK's Croatian ship with the EU, however the government has confirmed | :09:46. | :09:52. | |
that courses starting in 2017-2018 or before will continue to be | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
eligible for funding for the course. Regarding numbers of non-UK nurses, | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
it is correct that the nursing and midwifery Council senior reduction | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
in the number of legislation applications nurses in the European | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
Union. At the moment it is unclear whether the drop is debatable to the | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
introduction of more robust language testing the NMC rather than a result | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
of the decision for the UK to leave the EU. The drop in applications is | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
balanced by a reduction in headphones to professional two | :10:23. | :10:24. | |
meaning that while monthly fundraisers continue the number of | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
EU born nurses is by the same. Indeed there are slightly more | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
nurses from the EU working in NHS trusts and three series that there | :10:35. | :10:46. | |
were in June 20 16. And I ask if you would comment on the fact that the | :10:47. | :10:49. | |
figure you have quoted will be significantly skewed by the | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
immigration and skills charge which comes into being, where for every | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
overseas person of a type two Visa the NHS will have to be ?1000? Does | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
he not think that will have an effect on nursing figures? I will | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
not speculate on the impact of that effect, but what I can say is that | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
despite the scare stories that the numbers will be affected the axe | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
them or EU -based nurses in the last year and that is the point I wish to | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
get across. The real issue at stake is whether the number of staff in | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
NHS is increasing to meet the growing demands on it and hear the | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
government has a strong record. Over the last year the NHS has seen | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
record numbers of staff working within it. The most recent monthly | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
workforce statistics show that since May 2010 there are now over 33,000 | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
more professionally qualified full-time equivalent staff in NHS | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
trusts and clinical commissioning groups, including over 4000 more | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
nurses. Health education England's return to practice campaigns have | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
resulted in 2000 nurses ready to enter employment at over 9000 nurses | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
back on the front lines since 2014. There has been a 15% increase in | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
nurse training places is 2015 plus introduction of up to 1000 new | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
apprenticeships and increasing of nursing associate roles. The kind of | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
non-graduate nurse symbols that my noble friend Lord Forsyth pointed | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
out are a crucial part of the mix and these form part of a plan to | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
provide an additional 40,000 domestic were trained nurses for the | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
NHS. These new and additional routes into nursing professions will allow | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
thousands of people from all backgrounds to pursue careers in the | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
health care sectors and critically low NHS employers to grow their own | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
workforce. My Lords, I will end as I began. I believe this motion is | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
misguided. The extension of the one -based system to nursing and | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
midwifery training is a natural development of reforms that have | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
received cross-party support, successfully expanded higher | :12:50. | :12:51. | |
education and dramatically improve the participation of disadvantaged | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
groups and provided a further dissolution of the course of funding | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
higher education. Despite the pessimism of some the decision by | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
the British people to leave the EU which this party respects has not | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
had a material impact on the workforce. Furthermore, paid in part | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
by the resort is freed up by the changes to student finance, this | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
government has put in place a series of programmes that have successfully | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
increased the number of staff in NHS provide more training places than | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
ever. Allowing us to better grow our own workforce among UK residents. | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
The true source of regret is that the opposition has used this | :13:29. | :13:31. | |
opportunity to run scare stories about the impact of sensible funding | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
changes we have made and the impact of leaving the EU on the NHS | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
workforce. I urge all members of this house to vote against the | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
motion. My Lords and Members and very carefully to the noble Lord, | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
the Minister, I wanted to be persuaded. I am not persuaded. I | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
believe that the government had taken a big risk, gambled before in | :13:57. | :14:05. | |
2011, 12 and 13, it may not be known but they were just seen above nurses | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
in training because they thought we had sufficient. And as a result in | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
those three years there were several thousand nurses short trained | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
because the government got the figures wrong. I believe they got | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
the figures wrong again, I think it is a big big risk that we don't need | :14:24. | :14:30. | |
to take, it is unfair on the nurses career but most of all it is unfair | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
to the potential patients in the National Health Service. I want to | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
test the opinion of the house. The question is that this motion be | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
agreed to. As many say content. To the contrary not content. Clear the | :14:46. | :14:47. | |
bar. The question is that this motion be | :14:48. | :18:03. | |
agreed to. As many to that opinion will say content. Content. The | :18:04. | :18:09. | |
contrary, not condemned. Not content. Content will go to the | :18:10. | :18:12. | |
right by the phone, but content to the left. | :18:13. | :23:14. | |
The question is that this motion be agreed to. | :23:15. | :25:25. | |
My Lords, they have voted. Content is 121, not content is 159, so they | :25:26. | :25:35. | |
not content is have it. My Lords, I think it best if we | :25:36. | :26:16. | |
adjourn until 5:15pm to enable the chamber to be adjusted for the | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
ceremony that now follows. Thank you. The question is that the House | :26:23. | :26:31. | |
do now adjourn until 5:15pm. As many of that opinion say content. The not | :26:32. | :26:38. | |
content is. | :26:39. | :26:40. |