27/04/2017 House of Lords


27/04/2017

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Could the ministers say, is this a particularly complex area, is this

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why legislation did not come forward in 2016? Is it proving more

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difficult or is there some other reason why nothing was done within

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the timescale which as far as I know the Government originally suggested

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they would do so? There were various vehicles that the Government

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explored, the opportunity for a sponsored private member 's' bill

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and as I have said before without pre-empting what may have happened

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or will happen in the coming months, I think it is important to recognise

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that there were opportunities, certain legislative vehicles which

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were in the current timetable which could have been used as an

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opportunity to legislate in this respect. What does remain the case

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is that I have given a personal commitment to the current

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Government, and it is an important area to legislate in and we will

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continue to do so at the earliest opportunity if indeed it is a

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Conservative Government re-elected on the 8th of June. I endorse every

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single word that the noble Baroness made there. Whatever Government is

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elected in a few weeks' time, it should be top of the agenda to deal

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with for the new travel secretary. I am sure those who aspire to hold

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that position had taken note of the noble Lord's comments. Can he advise

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us if the Government plans to make any economic assessment of the

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imposition of bicycle lanes on London businesses, in particular,

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small businesses mobile tradesmen such as stonemasons who have

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effectively had to stop serving London businesses? As my noble

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friend is aware, the issue of cycle lanes is primarily a responsible at

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of London. I know there have been views expressed in this House and

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house and elsewhere, and I'm sure those will be taken into account if

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reviews are carried on of cycle lanes and their operation in London.

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Can he assure us that pledges made to legislate on this matter will not

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become a manifesto commitment? LAUGHTER

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Again, I'm not going to prejudge the commitments within a manifesto. I

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think I have made it as clear as I can at this juncture of what the

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intention was of the current Government, what my personal view is

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in this respect as someone who oversees legislation and indeed the

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operation and coordination of such activity in London with the Mayor of

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London and whatever Government I -- I am sure will continue to work with

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the Mayor of London to regulate this industry in the years to come. The

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confusion and despair seen as a result of this makes one think of

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meat is. Of course, there was a mutiny 228 years ago on the Bounty.

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228 years ago tomorrow. The Navy sent out ships to find the

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mutineers. Today we would find difficulty doing that, and with that

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have to be peddled as well to get there? I would like the noble Lord

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to agree that we need more ships. Pedalling and votes, I think that is

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something perhaps we have done in Hyde Park and elsewhere, but my day

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would not be complete had I not received a history lesson from the

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noble Lord and as ever I greatly appreciate that.

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LAUGHTER I beg leave to ask the question. Can

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I draw the House's attention to my entry on the register of interests?

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The Government is committed to making patient and care records

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digital, real-time and interoperable by 2020. Ahead of that, summary care

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records which provide essential information about a patient such as

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their medication, allergies and adverse reactions, are now available

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in many parts of the country in key areas of the NHS such as ambulances

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and A services. Health professionals can view these with

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patient consent. Thank you. I am rather concerned that the data

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guardians report, the third report, that was out last year, does not

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fully address the issue as to who that electronic patient data belongs

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to. Does it belong to the GPs, to NHS England, took NHS digital? And

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this is particularly important because GPs now, some GPs, are

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moving towards only localised electronic patient sharing, which

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will in my view happen -- have an adverse effect on the efficiency of

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the NHS, so can my noble friend the minister assure the House and myself

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that electronic patient data records will be made nationally and that it

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is the patient and the patient's choice as to who has access to those

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records? My noble friend makes an important point about the use of

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data and there is a balance to be struck. The first point to be made

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about the use of data is that patients need to be part of any

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decision about the sharing of data. In 2012, the NHS Future Forum

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rubbished an independent report on this issue and used the phrase, no

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decision about me without me, to describe the role of patients. Of

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course, there is a deed to share data. It needs to be shared among

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clinicians, particularly when they are treating a patient themselves.

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There can be wider concerns, for example, a public health pandemic or

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some such other incident where it needs to be shared widely but that

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can only be done with a patient being informed and offering their

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consent. Isn't there a problem here is that if all the focus is at

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national level, that takes usually a very long time and inhibits local

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progress? Wouldn't he agree that one of the great challenges is actually

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being able to share information between the health service and

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social care, if integrated care, particularly for older people, who

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are discharged from hospital, is to be delivered? I wonder if he could

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say if any progress is being made around what is clearly a challenging

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area of getting full integration and local level.

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The truth is there is patchy use of data within the health service and

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practically all GPs not offer a laconic patient records, something

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like 9 million people have registered to make appointments

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online -- electronic patient records. But it is not at the same

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level with trusts and there is the paper usage and the intention has

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been to get to 2020 with a paperless NHS which means you would have, with

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patient consent, the ability to share data around the patient

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pathway in any part of the health service. Given the continued

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revelations of data security breaches along with the absence of

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response from last year's report from Dame Fiona Caldicot, how is the

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government in to avoid a repeat of the fiasco several years ago over

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care data and does he agree with me that it is vitally important that

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patients are given confidence of the security of their data so that they

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will not withdraw from allowing their data to be used for vital

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medical research? The noble lady is quite right, the national data guide

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produced a report last summer and has been the intention to reply to

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that report and purdah has had an inevitable impact on it

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unfortunately but the points she made in that about the simplified

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process for opting out and also being clear there are vital users

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that suitably anonymised data which can be made which benefit patients

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directly, particularly through clinical medical research, and

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making sure they know about that so they can choose to have their data

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shared, it is encouraging that only around 2% of people of all patients

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have opted to have their summary care records not being shared so it

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suggests that went explained properly and with suitable

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safeguards, people are happy to share their data.

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He will have studied the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee

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report, NHS treatment of overseas patients, it is chaired by the

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Labour Party at present, which has identified a leakage of up to ?2

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billion a year in the treatment of patients who are either not entitled

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to NHS treatment free in Britain or whose treatment should be reimbursed

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by the countries from which they come. The target the government has

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for this leakage is only 500 million a year. We undertake that in the

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event of the government being successful in the election, that the

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government will make a real effort to stem this leakage which is dilute

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Inc the impact of the health service on the British people? -- by

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. What I can tell my noble friend about is the work the government has

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been doing on this issue which is to make sure that I identity checks for

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overseas patients in hospitals to ensure that those people who are not

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entitled to free care either through reciprocal arrangement or other

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means do pay for the care provided for them whilst making sure that

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anybody who is in need of urgent care does not have that care not

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given to them, even if they have to then pay later. Would the Minister

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made clear to the house that there are four health services in the UK,

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not one? And what negotiations are taking place with his colleagues, it

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is equivalent colleagues in the other administrations in the UK to

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ensure that there is one common computer system across the whole of

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the UK? Because electronic patient records depend upon their being one

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computer system and not a variety across the whole country. The noble

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Lord is quite right that the UK Government speaks only for the

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English health system. There is a different here between having single

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ICT systems, we've been down that road with billions wasted, rather

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than having systems that can speak to one another and having a code of

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usage around data security robustness that will provide for

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people, particularly in border areas, to make sure there is the

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kind of ongoing access to information that I believe he is

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talking about. My Lords, while of course patient confidentiality must

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be respected always, in the recent next steps in the five-year forward

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view of the NHS there was a very concerning item looking at urgent

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treatment centres. I find it worrying that personalised care

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plans for patients in mental health crisis or at the end of life would

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only be available in 40% of emergency care settings, assuming

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that the target of the report is met. If the government prepared to

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look at these figures? And considered them carefully? I think

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the picture that the noble lady paint is the one where we are

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starting from a position of not a great amount of sharing,

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particularly outside primary health care, and that is what the

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government has been trying to address, the primary route of doing

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that has been through the global digital exemplars which are enabling

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data cherry with the appropriate safeguards in acute trusts and

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mental health trusts and the intention is to increase that by the

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time. I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the

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order paper. My lord, no such discussions have taken place, it is

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the role of the local authorities to manage their networks efficiently

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and determine their own policies for balancing the needs of their

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communities but local authorities are required to have due regard to

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the need to eliminate discrimination, advanced equality of

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opportunity and foster good relations under section 149,

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subsection one of the equality act 2010. I thank my noble friend for

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his answer. Exactly a month ago I mentioned the problems I was having

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with partying in Lambeth and since then the target has been wrecked in

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the disabled bay where I live. Sometimes for three weeks in a row

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and always with a blue badge on display has been moved. Clearly

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somewhat at Lambeth Council is reading Hansard because the young

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man I saw who walked away from the car in question without any apparent

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disability has clearly been tipped off by someone in the council not to

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park in the disabled by. Blue badge misuse is a serious offence yet

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Lambeth says that in this case there is the evidence. Even though I have

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been obliged that the blue badge in question was issued by Lambeth not

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to a young man but to a 59-year-old woman. May I ask my noble friend the

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Minister on behalf of all those disabled people who genuinely rely

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on their blue badge and who do not have the privilege of standing up

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and asking a question in your Lordships house, may I ask that he

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urges all local authorities to prioritise tackling blue badge fraud

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including when it involves their own staff? I think my noble friend and

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first of all, I'm sure all Lordships are indeed very pleased to learn

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that Camden Council are following our proceedings very closely.

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Lambeth, I apologise, I'm sure Camden are as well! The issue which

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he raced specifically about Lambeth and it is a serious one, I think the

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abuse of blue badges in any place is something that is taken very

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seriously and enforcement, while it is a matter for local authorities,

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it is a criminal offence to park and misuse a blue badge. And offenders

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may be prosecuted and fined up to ?1000. I would also say that in 2013

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the Department for Transport also introduced new legislation to enable

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on strict civil enforcement officers to seek misused badges, when

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previously only the police could do this. The point about sharing of

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good practice, I understand there are a series of road shows in which

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the department is involved with local authority is intended

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effective to do that, sharing best practice and to end this abuse. The

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powers of local authorities are worth clarifying a few years ago in

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a bill I had the honour of taking to your Lordships house. I just wonder

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whether it is bearing fruit. Thus the noble lord have any figures to

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say about this? The noble lady is right to raise, the actual numbers

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in terms of specific prosecutions is still low income person to the

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reports received partly based on this need to produce evidence but as

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somebody involved in local government for ten years and who had

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responsibility at local level for this, part of it is education. A lot

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of people sometimes park inadvertently and think it is OK for

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a few minutes. The more serious issue is a blatant abuse of those

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spaces by blue badge holders and I think that is an area where there

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needs to be great education and I believe that the road shows which

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are sharing best practice will help to address the issue of enforcement

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more effectively. Another friend advise the house how often checks

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are made of the abuse of blue badges? Blue badges and disabled

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parking bays are assessed as part of any traffic enforcement which takes

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place in the local authority so whilst there are certainly to my

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knowledge not any specific initiatives undertaken to check on

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this as part of the general enforcement of traffic management

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ruled at a local level they are conducted readily in each local

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area. I refer to the response ability of local authorities to

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enforce the blue but scheme but is there not a difficulty is blue

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badges issued by one local authorities are used incorrectly in

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another local authority? Don't we have to have that enforcement

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procedures to make sure they are not abused? -- better enforcement

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procedures. I agree that this is a vital point and that is what I

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believe the issue of how we work across the board and sharing good

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practice will address part of the issues. I do again enforce the point

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that part of this is about education and information and dissemination

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about this and other those involved in traffic enforcement should know

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the specific rules in ensuring that effective enforcement can be carried

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out. My Lords, I wonder if I could invite the Minister to extend his

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comments to another aspect that affect people with disabilities of

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all kinds which is about parking on pavements or obstructing pavements.

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This has become an increasing problem for people with mobility

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problems of one kind or another and I wonder if when looking at this

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problem he could also bear in mind the need to keep pavements clear for

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people? Again, the noble Lord raises an important point and outside

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London and indeed 13 boroughs in London I know pavement parking is

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permitted and it causes a big issue in terms of access not just dare I

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say for the disabled, as someone who still has a reasonably young

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children, one in a pushchair, for young families as well try to get

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through and he makes a valid suggestion and we will ensure that

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is part of the discussion. My Lords, I beg leave to ask the question

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standing in my name and I should mention that I co-chaired the

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all-party parliament group on North Korea. My Lords, we have made clear

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that North Korea must stop its destabilising behaviour. It nuclear

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and ballistic missile programmes are a violation of multiple United

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Nations Security Council resolutions and a threat to regional and

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international security. We fully support action at the United Nations

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Security Council to counter this threat and maintain pressure on the

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regime put up the Foreign Secretary will shortly be discussing North

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Korea's illegal activity at the UN Security Council. Yesterday's

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presidential invitation to the White House of all 100 members of the

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United States Senate for a briefing on the unfolding and dangerous

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crisis on the Korean peninsula underscores its gravity but as does

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the recollection that the last Korean War cost nearly 3 million

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lives including those of 1000 British servicemen. With one quarter

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of North Korea's DVP used on armaments and over a million men

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under arms, how are we use our own present Pyongyang, Beijing and at

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the Security Council to engage China and to avert North Korea's present

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and long-term threat and to forestall a catastrophic outcome

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closer to home, why wasn't the North Korea national insurance Corporation

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not able to use London to generate over ?130 million to support both

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the regime and its nuclear weapons programme?

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Turning to the specific before I answer the more general. With

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regards to the Korea wrote national insurance company, the EU designated

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the London office on April the 28th 2016 and since that date, the UK has

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taken appropriate actions to sanction the firm and has absolutely

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followed that through. We issued a white paper on sanctions just last

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week as we take it so seriously. We continue to work not only through

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our critical engagement with the North Korean Government in Pyongyang

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through our embassy there, but also at the United Nations, because it is

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only by work amongst the United Nations Security Council, operating

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with China asserting an influence, that they can be any change to

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Korean behaviour. Can I reinforce the point that the absolute key to

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this incredibly dangerous situation is the full engagement and support

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of the Chinese Government and the sharing of their concerns with our

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concerns and those of the rest of the world? And is it not possible

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that HMG may be able to play a particularly useful intermediary

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role in this area? As always, he makes an important point, and I can

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give an assurance that the Foreign Secretary is meeting the Chinese

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representatives when he travels later this day to New York, and

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already has had very frequent discussions with China. It is

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notable that the whole of the United Nations Security Council agreed that

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there should be sanctions exerted on North Korea, including China, and

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China has shown good faith in that, in its sanctions. My lords. My

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lords. With brief questions we can hear

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from the Liberal Democrats and then the Labour benches. What is the

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response of Her Majesty's Government to the opinion expressed today by

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the member of the administration of George W Bush, and is no shrinking

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violet in these matters, that the solution to the crisis with North

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Korea will not rest in military action, not least because of the

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dangers that would present to the citizens of South Korea? My right

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honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has made it clear that he

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sees military action as being undesirable. We have not, with our

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allies in America, take an offensive action. It is North Korea that has

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been offensive in its actions. Clearly, the position of our on the

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border does mean that any military action would be an absolutely

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disastrous. That is why we are all with allies in the United Nations

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working together to ensure there is a stronger will, particularly by

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China, to exert its interest on North Korea to avoid an escalation

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of what we have seen over the last few weeks. Given the uncertainty

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about North Korea, not least after the discussions by the American

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President yesterday with the Senate, if there is the possibility of

:25:26.:25:28.

military engagement by the United States against North Korea, would

:25:29.:25:33.

there be a situation similar to what the Foreign Secretary suggested this

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morning in relation to Syria, which would engage British troops, and if

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that is the case, what attempts will be made to consult Parliament given

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that the elected house will cease to exist in very few Alice' time? It is

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a straightforward fact that the United States has made it clear that

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they are not seeking military action. What they are installing but

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that is a defensive missile system, and working with allies, South

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Korea, in the area. What came across very strongly yesterday from the

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announcement by the secretaries of State in America is that they are

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seeking a peaceful resolution. They made back clear, they made it clear

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that what they want to do is bring North Korea to its senses not to its

:26:24.:26:33.

knees. I welcome the response in terms of the Security Council, but

:26:34.:26:37.

will she reassure us that the Foreign Secretary will be in

:26:38.:26:42.

communication when he is in New York with his counterpart in the United

:26:43.:26:47.

States, to ensure that these two great allies act in concert to

:26:48.:26:54.

ensure effective sanctions? Yes, both in New York but also on a more

:26:55.:26:56.

regular basis. I beg leave to ask a question of

:26:57.:27:12.

which I have given private notice. It is as follows. To ask Her

:27:13.:27:16.

Majesty's Government what assessment they have made up the situation

:27:17.:27:20.

regarding child refugees in de Calais and Dunkirk areas, and

:27:21.:27:24.

whether they will take immediate steps to allow a significant number

:27:25.:27:31.

to enter the UK? In 2016, the UK transferred more than 750 children

:27:32.:27:35.

from France as part of the comprehensive support for the Calais

:27:36.:27:40.

camp clearance. The UK also offered support to France following the

:27:41.:27:44.

recent fire at Dunkirk. We continue to work closely with the French to

:27:45.:27:49.

transfer eligible children under section 67 of the Immigration Act

:27:50.:27:55.

under the Dublin regulation. The fastest route to safety is to claim

:27:56.:28:01.

asylum in France. I welcome the fact that the Government announced in a

:28:02.:28:05.

ministerial statement today that a further 130 children will be taken

:28:06.:28:09.

into this country under section 67 of the Immigration Act. Even if the

:28:10.:28:13.

reason is the Home Office having to hang its head in shame because they

:28:14.:28:18.

made an administrative error that is part of collating the figures. That

:28:19.:28:24.

comes out of Yes Minister. I want to put this to the minister. Will the

:28:25.:28:32.

Government now consult local authorities, because there are many

:28:33.:28:35.

not just in England but in other parts of the UK, who have expressed

:28:36.:28:39.

a willingness to take more child refugees. Is the minister not aware

:28:40.:28:43.

that many representations have been made recently about the available of

:28:44.:28:48.

local authority faces? The administrative error is most

:28:49.:28:56.

unfortunate, and for that I apologise. I wouldn't want to see

:28:57.:29:01.

that happening. The good news is that we have an additional 130

:29:02.:29:05.

places and I think we should all be very pleased about that. I think the

:29:06.:29:11.

important thing here is that no child has been disenfranchised, any

:29:12.:29:16.

eligible child has been taken this part, 200 children have been taken

:29:17.:29:22.

this far, so we haven't even got to the 350, so I wouldn't want the

:29:23.:29:27.

noble lord to think that any child is disenfranchised because of this

:29:28.:29:31.

administrative error, which is, as I have said, most regrettable. In

:29:32.:29:35.

terms of the consultation, we have consulted local authorities and I

:29:36.:29:40.

would like to say to noble lords, just for the record, that there are

:29:41.:29:44.

4000 unaccompanied children in local authority care as we speak, and some

:29:45.:29:50.

local authorities, like Kent and Croydon, host a disproportionate

:29:51.:29:55.

number of judging. We are always very glad to hear local authorities

:29:56.:29:59.

coming forward to take children through the National transfer

:30:00.:30:05.

scheme, or indeed to take refugee children. But, my lords, it is not

:30:06.:30:11.

like we had not consulted properly. I know the Immigration Minister

:30:12.:30:17.

wrote to all local authorities, a national launch event was held, and

:30:18.:30:21.

over ten metre events were held in every part of England as well as in

:30:22.:30:28.

Scotland and one in Wales. -- and over ten regional events were held.

:30:29.:30:33.

There were reports last week in the context of child refugees that an

:30:34.:30:36.

assumption was being made that if such a child is disabled, they would

:30:37.:30:40.

be debarred, because they were regarded as being too burdensome.

:30:41.:30:43.

Will she take the opportunity to deny in all... With all possible

:30:44.:30:49.

strength but that could be the Government's policy. It would never

:30:50.:30:56.

be the Government's policy. I don't think it would be any government's

:30:57.:31:02.

policy to disenfranchise a disabled child because they were too

:31:03.:31:05.

burdensome. A child will be assessed under the criteria of Dublin or the

:31:06.:31:12.

Vulnerable Children's Refugee Scheme. No child would ever be

:31:13.:31:15.

disenfranchised because they were disabled and I can very strongly

:31:16.:31:21.

confirm that. My two questions for the minister. Is the minister aware

:31:22.:31:27.

that Help Refugees will press ahead with their pending court case as

:31:28.:31:31.

their information data shows that further clerical errors exist? And

:31:32.:31:38.

secondly, will become at except that we have a moral and legal duty to

:31:39.:31:46.

these children, and reopen the Dublin Scheme to make sure that

:31:47.:31:49.

these areas are ironed out once and for all and that we act with utmost

:31:50.:31:54.

haste in bringing these unfortunate children to the UK? The Government

:31:55.:32:02.

has been far too slow in acting. As of my first answer, we haven't

:32:03.:32:09.

closed the Dublin Khan scheme. We have 200 children here. There is

:32:10.:32:16.

potential for another 280 two arrive. And in terms of the court

:32:17.:32:19.

case, I look forward to the outcome of the court case and I would not

:32:20.:32:23.

want to comment on it at this stage. My lords, France or Europe is not

:32:24.:32:31.

some war-torn country. So I am delighted that refugees are being

:32:32.:32:34.

able to get to a place of safety, whether that is in France or indeed

:32:35.:32:39.

here. My concern, of course, is that they are the most vulnerable

:32:40.:32:44.

children and women and -- the most full of all women and children are

:32:45.:32:47.

still in Syria and on its borders and can the minister say what

:32:48.:32:51.

support the Government has given in this vital work? I am very pleased

:32:52.:32:55.

to be able to do that and she is absolutely right that the most

:32:56.:32:58.

vulnerable are actually still in the regions. And last year, the former

:32:59.:33:05.

prime minister made an announcement to double the amount of assistance

:33:06.:33:11.

going to the region to ?2.4 billion. Double the amount it had been

:33:12.:33:16.

previously. But my noble friend makes exactly the right point that

:33:17.:33:20.

we should be sending help to the regions where it is most needed. I

:33:21.:33:25.

think it would have been better if the Government had come with an oral

:33:26.:33:30.

statement to the House on this issue, rather than putting it in a

:33:31.:33:36.

written statement just as we are about to seize sitting and it is of

:33:37.:33:39.

considerable interest to the House. But when we discuss this in the

:33:40.:33:46.

House the night the fabric, -- on the ninth of fabric, the Government

:33:47.:33:49.

had in the official report or statement in the Commons that

:33:50.:33:53.

McQuaid, local authorities told as they have capacity for about 400

:33:54.:33:56.

asylum seeking unaccompanied children until the end of this

:33:57.:34:05.

financial year, that been 2016-17. And I asked the noble lady the

:34:06.:34:11.

minister what capacity have local authorities told the Government they

:34:12.:34:15.

have for unaccompanied asylum seeking children in the next

:34:16.:34:20.

financial year? Namely 2017-18. On the basis that the current level of

:34:21.:34:27.

Government funding is continued. I did not get a direct reply to that

:34:28.:34:33.

question I asked. She has said the Government has been in constant

:34:34.:34:37.

touch with local authorities, so can the minister gives the figure? What

:34:38.:34:42.

capacity have local authorities told the Government they have for

:34:43.:34:46.

unaccompanied asylum seekers and children in the next financial year,

:34:47.:34:50.

namely this one, 2000 7-18, on the basis that the current level of

:34:51.:34:57.

Government funding is continuing? As I outlined... As my right on both

:34:58.:35:08.

run in the Other Place outlined in the written ministerial statement

:35:09.:35:12.

yesterday, the capacity for the section 67 children is 480. In terms

:35:13.:35:17.

of future commitments, obviously, we are ours from dissolution, so I

:35:18.:35:26.

cannot make any future declarations at the dispatch box, much as I would

:35:27.:35:33.

want to, those figures will be forthcoming should we be successful

:35:34.:35:40.

in the general election. She says that there are 4000 children in

:35:41.:35:47.

foster care. Are these 4000 asylum seeking unaccompanied youngsters to

:35:48.:35:57.

be voted on? 4000 asylum seeking children? An issue about that of the

:35:58.:36:02.

children dispersed in France, the 600 have made their way back to

:36:03.:36:08.

Calais because they have been most not accepted in a very friendly way?

:36:09.:36:13.

I'm not sure why children who had been accepted for local authority

:36:14.:36:22.

accommodation here would want to go back to Calais. I'm sure there are

:36:23.:36:34.

various reasons for that. To France. Sorry, I've slightly misheard the

:36:35.:36:41.

tenet of the noble Lord's question you asked if 4000 unaccompanied

:36:42.:36:50.

children in local authority care in this country, and there are, and

:36:51.:36:56.

other children who were not eligible for either Dubs or Dublin have been

:36:57.:37:12.

dispersed within France. My Lords, in these debates which we have on

:37:13.:37:16.

the issue, the focus is almost exclusively on local authorities,

:37:17.:37:20.

suggesting they are the only and best providers. Is that the case and

:37:21.:37:26.

if so what is the arrangement by which other providers can link into

:37:27.:37:29.

the system in order to increase the numbers of places available? I'm

:37:30.:37:34.

glad my noble friend asked that question because the one thing the

:37:35.:37:38.

government has been keen to promote is the community sponsorship scheme

:37:39.:37:46.

which the Archbishop of Canterbury has taken part in in Lambeth Palace,

:37:47.:37:54.

to take Syrian families and indeed in my own local authority of

:37:55.:38:01.

Trafford we also have the community sponsorship scheme and I never let

:38:02.:38:04.

the time pass up without encouraging noble lord who might know any

:38:05.:38:09.

community sponsors who might be willing to come forward to take

:38:10.:38:18.

families. My Lords, on Monday I advised the house that subject to

:38:19.:38:25.

the progress of business we hoped to prorogue when today's business was

:38:26.:38:29.

completed. The timing of prorogation today will depend on the time this

:38:30.:38:34.

house takes to complete its business which is a course in the hands of

:38:35.:38:39.

the house itself. We will adjourn and after we have considered the

:38:40.:38:44.

motion in the name of Lord Clarke of Windermere and then resume for the

:38:45.:38:49.

Royal commission. I anticipate this will not be for the -- before the

:38:50.:38:54.

middle of the afternoon but when times are more certain we will

:38:55.:39:02.

indicate them. Finally my Lords, I should alert the house to some

:39:03.:39:06.

breaking news. We now have dates for state opening. On Monday the 19th of

:39:07.:39:16.

June. And for the first meeting of parliament on Thursday the 13th and

:39:17.:39:27.

Wednesday, I'm sorry, I'm getting the days muddled! These are a little

:39:28.:39:33.

unusual as noble Lords will note. Tuesday the 13th and Wednesday the

:39:34.:39:37.

14th of June the house will meet for the purposes of swearing in. I

:39:38.:39:42.

understand the house authorities will shortly be issuing a Lords

:39:43.:39:47.

notice confirming the arrangements for state opening and disillusion

:39:48.:39:52.

including the use of the facilities of the house. The third reading of

:39:53.:39:59.

the local ordered public access to documents Bill, Baroness eaten. My

:40:00.:40:04.

Lords I beg to move that this bill now be read a third time.

:40:05.:40:16.

The question is, that this Bill be now read a third time, as many of

:40:17.:40:28.

that will -- that opinion say content, the content is have it. The

:40:29.:40:36.

question is that this build now pass, as many of that opinion say

:40:37.:40:41.

content, the country not content, the contents have it. The third

:40:42.:40:46.

reading of the merchant shipping such conduct Bill. I beg to move

:40:47.:40:51.

that this Bill be read a third time. The question is that this Bill be

:40:52.:40:58.

read a third time. The contents habit. My lord I beg to move that

:40:59.:41:05.

this Bill now pass. The question is that this Bill now pass. The

:41:06.:41:15.

contents have it. The third reading chip of the guardianship missing

:41:16.:41:18.

Persons Bill. I beg to move that this Bill be read a third time. The

:41:19.:41:23.

question is that this Bill be read a third time. The contents have it. My

:41:24.:41:32.

lord I beg to move that this Bill now pass. The question is that this

:41:33.:41:39.

Bill do now pass. The contents habit. The third reading of the

:41:40.:41:45.

barriers registration Bill. I beg to move that this bill be read a third

:41:46.:41:50.

time. The question is that this Bill be read a third time. The contents

:41:51.:41:59.

habit. My lord I beg to move that this Bill now do pass. The question

:42:00.:42:10.

is that this Bill now do pass. The contents have it. Consideration of

:42:11.:42:17.

commons wheezing and a moment to the higher education and research Bill.

:42:18.:42:43.

The question is, I apologise that the Commons reason and amendment be

:42:44.:42:57.

now considered. The contents have it. Motion A, Viscount Younger.

:42:58.:43:36.

I beg to move motion A that this house do not insist on it amendment

:43:37.:43:44.

one and do agree with the Commons in their amendments one A, one B, once

:43:45.:43:49.

the and one D in new. I would like to say that I'm pleased to return to

:43:50.:43:55.

the higher education research Bill which has been strengthened in this

:43:56.:43:58.

house by the attention and expertise shown by noble Lords. Turning first

:43:59.:44:06.

to the amendments, there has been much debate and discussion about the

:44:07.:44:12.

importance of interlinked to protect both institutional autonomy and use

:44:13.:44:17.

of the term University. In particular noble Lord Lord Stevenson

:44:18.:44:21.

and Lord Kerslake and the noble Baroness is, Lady Woolf, Lady Brown

:44:22.:44:27.

and Lady Gardner spoke eloquently at the committee stage about the

:44:28.:44:30.

importance of ensuring there is proper protection in place and as a

:44:31.:44:35.

result your door sips agreed amendment one. -- your Lordships. We

:44:36.:44:40.

agreed with many of the sentiments behind the amendment, to continue to

:44:41.:44:45.

protect institutional autonomy and responded with a significant package

:44:46.:44:49.

of amendments designed to provide robust and meaningful protection of

:44:50.:44:53.

this important principle, so vital to the success of our higher

:44:54.:44:57.

education sector. Today the government proposes further

:44:58.:45:03.

amendments to continue to protect the value and trepidation of the

:45:04.:45:07.

University title and I am pleased to report that these amendments were

:45:08.:45:11.

agreed yesterday in the other place. Our amendments ensure that before

:45:12.:45:16.

permitting the use of University title, the office for students must

:45:17.:45:20.

have regard to factors in guidance given by the Secretary of State.

:45:21.:45:25.

Further to that, before giving the guidance, the Secretary of State

:45:26.:45:29.

must consult bodies that represent higher education providers and

:45:30.:45:32.

students and any other appropriate person. This will ensure the

:45:33.:45:38.

guidance is correctly focused. Let me also reassure noble lord that

:45:39.:45:42.

this consultation will be full and abroad. It will reference processes

:45:43.:45:48.

and practices overseas, for example in Australia, and provide an

:45:49.:45:51.

opportunity to look at a broad range of factors to consider before

:45:52.:45:55.

granting the University title. This may include factors such as track

:45:56.:45:59.

record in excellent teaching, sustained scholarship, cohesive

:46:00.:46:07.

academic communities, interdisciplinary approaches,

:46:08.:46:10.

supported learning infrastructures, dissemination of knowledge, public

:46:11.:46:13.

facing role of universities, academic freedom and freedom of

:46:14.:46:17.

speech, and wider support for students and pastoral care. These

:46:18.:46:22.

factors chime with the comments on the definition of a university given

:46:23.:46:26.

by my honourable friend the Minister in the other place and he has said

:46:27.:46:32.

previously, in a limited sense a university can be described as

:46:33.:46:34.

predominantly a degree level provide up with rewarding powers and if we

:46:35.:46:40.

want a broader definition, we can say that the university is also

:46:41.:46:44.

expected -- expected to be an institution that brings together a

:46:45.:46:48.

body of scholars to book eight cohesive and self-critical academic

:46:49.:46:50.

community that provides excellent learning opportunities for people,

:46:51.:46:55.

the majority of whom are studying to degree level or above. We expect

:46:56.:46:58.

teaching at such an institution to be informed by a combination of

:46:59.:47:03.

research, scholarship and professional practice. To

:47:04.:47:07.

distinguish it from what we conventionally understand the school

:47:08.:47:10.

's role to be, we can say that the University is a place where students

:47:11.:47:15.

are developing higher analytical capacities, critical thinking,

:47:16.:47:17.

curiouser Diabate the world and higher levels of abstract capacity

:47:18.:47:24.

in their thinking. -- curiosity in the world. The strength of the

:47:25.:47:28.

university sector is based on its diversity and we continue to

:47:29.:47:31.

recognise that a one size fits all approach is not in the interests of

:47:32.:47:34.

students and wider society and particularly small providers that

:47:35.:47:40.

are right the creative arts, agriculture and theology have a lot

:47:41.:47:43.

more students with highly specialised career aims the

:47:44.:47:47.

opportunity to study at university. As we said in the White Paper, and

:47:48.:47:51.

throughout the passage of this Bill, the diversity of the sector and

:47:52.:47:55.

opportunities for students have grown as a result of the important

:47:56.:47:58.

changes introduced by the Labour government in 2004, namely the

:47:59.:48:04.

lifting of the requirement for universities to have student in five

:48:05.:48:09.

subject areas and award research degrees. We do not expect to go back

:48:10.:48:13.

on the specific changes that were made. Turning to the teaching

:48:14.:48:17.

excellence framework, I would like to thank noble Lord again for the

:48:18.:48:21.

constructive engagement and consideration in particular the

:48:22.:48:27.

noble Lord Lord Kerr slick and the noble Lord Lord Blunkett for the

:48:28.:48:31.

time and energy they have put into this issue -- Lord Kerr 's lake. We

:48:32.:48:35.

all agree students deserve high quality teaching and need access to

:48:36.:48:39.

clear information as they make one of the most important decisions of

:48:40.:48:44.

their lives so far. The crux of our debate has always focused on the

:48:45.:48:53.

operation of the TEF and without financial incentives it would not

:48:54.:48:57.

focus on teaching and help students make better choices and that is why

:48:58.:49:02.

we are proposing to remove the two amendments this house previously

:49:03.:49:06.

voted in which would render the TEF unworkable but it was clear from our

:49:07.:49:10.

previous debate that no blood remained concerned about the

:49:11.:49:13.

operation of the TEF and the link between it and fees -- noble Lords

:49:14.:49:20.

remained concerned. We have listened to concerns raised and I'm delighted

:49:21.:49:24.

to be able to put before this house is a set of amendments which I

:49:25.:49:29.

believe directly address the most fundamental concerns raised during

:49:30.:49:33.

our previous debates. I'm pleased to endorse amendment 23 C which

:49:34.:49:41.

requires the Secretary of State to commission an independent review of

:49:42.:49:46.

the TEF within one year of the clause commencing. Crucially the

:49:47.:49:50.

amendment requires the Secretary of State to lay this report before

:49:51.:49:54.

Parliament. This will ensure greater parliamentary accountability for the

:49:55.:49:59.

framework as it moves forward. The report itself must cover many of the

:50:00.:50:02.

aspects that have concerned members of this house and the other place

:50:03.:50:08.

including firstly whether the metrics used are fit for use in the

:50:09.:50:14.

TEF, secondly if the names of the ratings are appropriate for use,

:50:15.:50:18.

thirdly the impact of the TEF on the ability providers to carry out their

:50:19.:50:22.

research in teaching and other continents and finally an assessment

:50:23.:50:26.

of whether the scheme is, all things considered, in the public interest.

:50:27.:50:30.

I am happy to repeat the commitment made in the other place that the

:50:31.:50:35.

Secretary of State will take account of the review and if he or she

:50:36.:50:38.

considers it appropriate, will provide guidance to the OFS

:50:39.:50:43.

accordingly included on any changes to the scheme that the review

:50:44.:50:47.

suggests are needed, whether in relation to the metrics or any of

:50:48.:50:51.

the other items that the review will look at. We have also had concerned

:50:52.:50:59.

about the impact of the link between TEF and fees. We recognise the

:51:00.:51:03.

important role of parliament in setting feed caps and that is why

:51:04.:51:06.

I'm also pleased to seek your support for our amendments 12 a, B,

:51:07.:51:14.

F and G, which meant the polity procedure required to alter in lieu

:51:15.:51:18.

limit amounts to ensure any regulations that raise fees would be

:51:19.:51:22.

septic as a minimum to the authority procedure which provide a greater

:51:23.:51:27.

level polity oversight and the current legislation. But the more

:51:28.:51:30.

these amendments demonstrate our commitment to a considered roll-out

:51:31.:51:37.

of differentiated fees. Amendments in lieu 12 C and B will delay the

:51:38.:51:42.

link between differentiating TEF ratings and tuition fee caps so this

:51:43.:51:45.

will not be introduced over three years with the first year of

:51:46.:51:50.

differentiated fees as a result of TEF ratings being no earlier than

:51:51.:51:52.

the academic year beginning of autumn 2020. I would like to clarify

:51:53.:51:58.

this point as I know that it is slightly complex.

:51:59.:52:03.

Until August 2020 there will be no different show -- differentiation of

:52:04.:52:12.

fee uplift. The fee cap will not differ according to the different

:52:13.:52:14.

ratings they might be afforded. These amendments mean that until

:52:15.:52:19.

that point or English providers participating in TEF will receive

:52:20.:52:23.

the full inflation rate uplift, regardless of their rating. It will

:52:24.:52:27.

be up to devolved administrations as before to determine whether they are

:52:28.:52:31.

content for their institutions to participate in TEF and what impact

:52:32.:52:35.

participation may have on their fees. So in practice, this means

:52:36.:52:40.

that differentiated fees will not be introduced until after the

:52:41.:52:43.

independent review as reported to the Secretary of State and

:52:44.:52:46.

Parliament. I would therefore like to reiterate and reassure this House

:52:47.:52:50.

today by repeating the commitment made by the minister for

:52:51.:52:53.

universities in the Other Place yesterday that the ratings awarded

:52:54.:52:59.

this year will not be used determine differentiated fees unless a

:53:00.:53:04.

provider chooses not to re-enter TEF after the independent review.

:53:05.:53:07.

Therefore, this year's ratings will only count towards a differentiated

:53:08.:53:11.

fees if after the review, the provider does not ask for a fresh

:53:12.:53:14.

assessment before the next one is due. An opportunity that will be

:53:15.:53:20.

open to all participants. Before moving to our other amendments,

:53:21.:53:23.

would like to reiterate to this House that we remain committed to

:53:24.:53:27.

ensuring that the TEF will evolve to assess the teaching of quality at

:53:28.:53:30.

subject level as well as institutional level. I know that

:53:31.:53:34.

many noble lords feel very strongly, as we do, that the move to subject

:53:35.:53:39.

level needs to happen as quickly as possible. However, we recognise that

:53:40.:53:42.

subject level assessments are more challenging and that is why the

:53:43.:53:45.

Government has previously announced an extension to the roll-out of

:53:46.:53:49.

subject level TEF with an additional year of piloting. This follows the

:53:50.:53:53.

best practice demonstrated in the research excellence framework and

:53:54.:53:57.

means that subject level assessments will not take place until spring

:53:58.:54:04.

2020. I beg to move. The question is that motion let a be agreed to. I

:54:05.:54:14.

rise to speak to motion letter a. The Lords amendment defined the

:54:15.:54:20.

functions of the University essentially protecting the use of

:54:21.:54:24.

university title by describing the characteristics of an organisation

:54:25.:54:28.

which can be granted such title. The several purposes of this amendment

:54:29.:54:37.

included ensuring institutions called link themselves universities

:54:38.:54:43.

engaged in scholarship, both as part of student learning, learning that

:54:44.:54:45.

would take place in an environment where disciplines meet and melt, and

:54:46.:54:51.

that universities would recognise the special place they hold in

:54:52.:54:55.

society by contributing to our society not only by teaching and

:54:56.:54:58.

dissemination of knowledge but also for example by partnering with

:54:59.:55:03.

charities, schools and colleges, local, regional initiatives, to

:55:04.:55:09.

deliver a benefit well beyond their immediate staff and students.

:55:10.:55:13.

International research clearly demonstrates the impact that engaged

:55:14.:55:16.

universities can have on local communities. Many other countries,

:55:17.:55:22.

including for example Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, the Canadian

:55:23.:55:26.

provinces, Germany, Spain and India have a definition of university or

:55:27.:55:31.

or its functions and activities in legislation. So an overarching

:55:32.:55:35.

objective of the Lords amendment was to protect the reputation of

:55:36.:55:38.

universities in this country, going beyond the situation in the bill

:55:39.:55:44.

when the OFS might consent to the institutions' use of the university

:55:45.:55:49.

title if that institution were a registered higher education

:55:50.:55:52.

provider. I think this would have community to the world, and I think

:55:53.:55:55.

that is particularly important at a time when we are leaving be you,

:55:56.:55:59.

that are higher education system is open for expansion and innovation,

:56:00.:56:04.

but that university title in England is not given easily. It would tell

:56:05.:56:10.

potential students about the sort of institution and learning environment

:56:11.:56:13.

that they should expect from a university, and I think it would

:56:14.:56:16.

also encourage new entrants to the sector.

:56:17.:56:27.

I appreciate that the Government has worked to ensure that university

:56:28.:56:36.

autonomy is a strong feature of the bill but I'm disappointed elsewhere.

:56:37.:56:42.

However, I'm reassured that the Government amendments in the Other

:56:43.:56:46.

Place, in view of the Lords amendment, required the OFS to have

:56:47.:56:50.

regard to factors set out in guided by the secretary of the state by

:56:51.:56:54.

awarding the university title and I'm pleased that the Secretary of

:56:55.:56:57.

State will consult on these factors. Indeed, I'm strongly welcoming of

:56:58.:57:02.

the comments by the minister for universities' science, research and

:57:03.:57:06.

innovation in the Other Place yesterday. That is about the

:57:07.:57:13.

consultation being full and brought and about the type of factors that

:57:14.:57:17.

would be included in the consultation. I agree that this is

:57:18.:57:23.

an approach which can deliver both widely supported and strong guidance

:57:24.:57:29.

for the office the students, with criteria to award the university

:57:30.:57:32.

title. So I would like to record my thanks to the ministers and their

:57:33.:57:36.

team and I would just like to put one final question to the noble

:57:37.:57:40.

Viscount, the minister, today. In the week that we have heard that

:57:41.:57:45.

China has sent senior Government officials into its leading

:57:46.:57:47.

universities because of concerns over Government criticism and

:57:48.:57:53.

westernisation, does he not think that it would have been a great

:57:54.:57:57.

message for us to have been positively encouraging, if not

:57:58.:58:02.

insisting, that universities act as critics of Government and the

:58:03.:58:07.

conscience of society, as the Lords amendment also suggested? My Lords,

:58:08.:58:14.

I should first declare my interest as chair of the Board of Governors

:58:15.:58:20.

of Sheffield Hallam University. I should also record that the Vice

:58:21.:58:24.

Chancellor of Sheffield Hallam, Chris husbands, has been leading

:58:25.:58:28.

work on incrimination of the teaching excellence framework on

:58:29.:58:34.

behalf of the Government. -- implementation. It falls to me to

:58:35.:58:39.

lead the response on the set of governments amendments in motion B

:58:40.:58:45.

and D. It is important to say that this part of the bill has been

:58:46.:58:49.

subject to many contributions during debates. From the start, it has been

:58:50.:58:56.

clear that there has been general support for the Government's decide

:58:57.:59:02.

to raise the profile importance accorded to teaching in our

:59:03.:59:04.

universities. That has not been a point of issue. There has also been

:59:05.:59:09.

a general understanding that fees will over time need to rise with

:59:10.:59:18.

inflation. The concerns have been with the Government's approach to

:59:19.:59:23.

introducing TEF at the link being made between the TEF and increases

:59:24.:59:31.

in fees. In particular, that the TEF was being introduced with undue

:59:32.:59:36.

haste, that the gold, silver, bronze rankings being put forward by both

:59:37.:59:40.

inappropriate and potentially damaging to the sector. And that the

:59:41.:59:49.

TEF was not the right basis for allowing differential fee increases.

:59:50.:59:54.

The amendments now being put forward by the Government in place of our

:59:55.:00:00.

amendments I think go a considerable way to addressing those strong

:00:01.:00:07.

concerns. As the minister has said, the review will be independently led

:00:08.:00:13.

and must cover the process by which the ratings are determined, whether

:00:14.:00:19.

the metrics are fit for purpose, whether the classification is

:00:20.:00:23.

awarded are appropriate, what the impact of the scheme will be on

:00:24.:00:27.

higher education providers, and whether the TEF is in the public

:00:28.:00:33.

interest. By any measure, that is a comprehensive review, and we will

:00:34.:00:39.

all await with interest the outcome. It is essential that any future

:00:40.:00:46.

Secretary of State takes full account of its findings and

:00:47.:00:51.

recommendations. All above tests are important. But I would place to give

:00:52.:00:58.

emphasis on the review of the rankings and the public interest

:00:59.:01:04.

test. In this context, there is one point that I would like the minister

:01:05.:01:08.

did horrify, and I have notified the minister's office in advance -- I

:01:09.:01:13.

would like the minister to clarify. I would be grateful if the minister

:01:14.:01:18.

could confirm that it will be open to a review to say that we should

:01:19.:01:25.

either stay within the current rankings, propose an alternative set

:01:26.:01:32.

of rankings, or indeed conclude that ranking of universities of any sort

:01:33.:01:38.

is simply not appropriate in what is a very diverse sector. I look

:01:39.:01:43.

forward to the minister's response. The ability to differentiate

:01:44.:01:49.

increases linked to the TEF has not been removed from the bill as we

:01:50.:01:54.

proposed. But the Government's amendment will delay any

:01:55.:02:01.

differentiation until at least the academic year 2020-21, and as the

:02:02.:02:05.

minister has said, this will allow time for the review to be completed,

:02:06.:02:08.

and its conclusions properly considered. And in the meantime, it

:02:09.:02:13.

is something that all sides of the House supported, existing

:02:14.:02:18.

universities involved in the process will get the full inflationary

:02:19.:02:23.

uplift. I believe this is a significant and very welcome move by

:02:24.:02:28.

the Government, and I know that it has not been likely conceded. There

:02:29.:02:33.

remains, though, the issue of publication of the results of the

:02:34.:02:38.

trial TEF assessment process. I understand, although it would be

:02:39.:02:42.

helpful for the minister to confirm, that these results will not now be

:02:43.:02:48.

published until after the election, when a new ministerial team are in

:02:49.:02:54.

place. I hope that that new ministerial team will consider very

:02:55.:02:58.

carefully how the issue of publication should be handled,

:02:59.:03:04.

particularly given the implication that TEF will be subject to a wide

:03:05.:03:09.

ranging view. I set at committee stage that I could not think of

:03:10.:03:13.

anyone better placed to lead the work on the TEF and Chris husbands.

:03:14.:03:20.

That firmly remains my view. He and his fellow assessors have applied

:03:21.:03:23.

themselves diligently and fairly to the task they were given. The fault

:03:24.:03:30.

here, I fear, lay in the way that they were commissioned by the

:03:31.:03:37.

Government to undertake the task. The independent review and the delay

:03:38.:03:40.

will provide an opportunity to get this right. In particular, I think

:03:41.:03:46.

that the gold, silver and bronze rankings are not long for this

:03:47.:03:52.

world. I hope that what comes out is a much more sufficient indicated --

:03:53.:03:58.

sophisticated and evidence -based approach to subjects, as proposed by

:03:59.:04:09.

a noble lord. Finally, as I am unlikely to speak again in this

:04:10.:04:13.

debate, I would like to pay tribute to peers on this side of the House

:04:14.:04:16.

for their valuable work in reviewing and amending this bill, to the noble

:04:17.:04:25.

lord Lord Stevenson and two lady Garden and to others in this House

:04:26.:04:32.

for being both willing to listen and to respond to our concerns. That is

:04:33.:04:38.

what this thread should be about. This is still not the bill that we

:04:39.:04:44.

might have wanted, but it is considerably improved from when it

:04:45.:04:48.

came into this House. I hope that there will be no further bills on

:04:49.:04:53.

higher education for a considerable period of time. And the sector will

:04:54.:04:58.

be given the chance to have the stability it needs to do what it

:04:59.:05:02.

does best to represent the interests of this country. I share some of the

:05:03.:05:12.

disappointment accepted by my noble friend Baroness Brown about the

:05:13.:05:15.

definition of a university. But I take great comfort at a significant

:05:16.:05:21.

step forward, which may have escaped the attention of some members of the

:05:22.:05:28.

public, I am extremely grateful to both the minister Joe Johnson and

:05:29.:05:35.

the noble Viscount Younger, for having listened to those who have

:05:36.:05:40.

expressed significant concerns about the inroads into freedom of speech

:05:41.:05:46.

in our universities. And the growth of the most unpleasant racism

:05:47.:05:53.

expressed in the widespread extent of anti-Semitic activity. I am sure

:05:54.:05:59.

all members of the House will support me in expressing gratitude

:06:00.:06:05.

to the two ministers for having understood that and having addressed

:06:06.:06:14.

it, albeit off the face of the bill. Universities' obligations and

:06:15.:06:17.

freedom of speech have been extended and all universities have been

:06:18.:06:24.

reminded by the minister of the definition of anti-Semitism, which

:06:25.:06:29.

has been adopted internationally. That, I think, is a great step

:06:30.:06:35.

forward towards repairing the replication of our universities,

:06:36.:06:39.

which has been suffering internally, if not internationally.

:06:40.:06:43.

I also take some comfort from the fact that the last president of the

:06:44.:06:53.

National Union of Students has not been re-elected in part because some

:06:54.:06:58.

consider some of their remarks have been racist and I believe we are

:06:59.:07:03.

moving into a new era as far as that is concerned. I would also like to

:07:04.:07:08.

take this opportunity of saluting Sir Eric Pickles, the government's

:07:09.:07:16.

envoy for post-Holocaust issues, who joined in the fight to preserve

:07:17.:07:20.

freedom of speech and stop anti-Semitism and this is very good

:07:21.:07:25.

news. We will miss him sorely. And finally, especially on these

:07:26.:07:30.

benches, it has been evident in the discussions about this bill just how

:07:31.:07:35.

much expertise there is in this house about higher education,

:07:36.:07:41.

chancellors, vice chancellors, administrators and professors have

:07:42.:07:44.

all joined in and we have eventually been listened to. I think that goes

:07:45.:07:49.

to establish the value of the expertise accumulated in this house.

:07:50.:07:55.

Some of it may be very elderly but there is a great deal of expertise

:07:56.:07:59.

in higher education and it has come in the end, shone through. My lord

:08:00.:08:07.

could I firstly draw attention to my declaration of interest on the

:08:08.:08:12.

register. It is not my intention to repeat the excellent contributions

:08:13.:08:15.

that have already been made but I would like to put on record my

:08:16.:08:22.

commendation for Chris husbands, the vice Chancellor of what some

:08:23.:08:27.

unwisely called the University in which I'm involved, the other

:08:28.:08:32.

university in Sheffield. His work is of excellent quality and I hope very

:08:33.:08:40.

much that we will be able to build on that in the years to come. I

:08:41.:08:46.

would however like to repeat what Lord Kerslake said in terms of what

:08:47.:08:53.

happens after the general election in ensuring that nothing is done,

:08:54.:08:59.

particularly in relation to the evaluation in the ratings, that

:09:00.:09:02.

damages in any way the enormous contribution of the higher education

:09:03.:09:10.

sector in this country both to the well-being of students themselves

:09:11.:09:15.

but to our economy and our standing in the world. I think there can be

:09:16.:09:20.

no doubt after the considerable debates we have had in this house

:09:21.:09:26.

that there is a deep commitment along with the Minister and the

:09:27.:09:35.

noble Viscount in hearing this house to improving teaching and to

:09:36.:09:40.

recognising the critical role of teaching excellence framework going

:09:41.:09:48.

forward in ensuring that along with the research excellence framework,

:09:49.:09:52.

it is worth putting on the record at this late stage, there is still a

:09:53.:09:58.

major tendency to value what will pull in major grants for research

:09:59.:10:02.

even when the research might be of doubtful value rather than the

:10:03.:10:08.

importance of balancing the commitment to high-quality teaching

:10:09.:10:16.

learning with the REF and that is what I'm committed and have said to

:10:17.:10:19.

Joe Johnson in the Commons and repeat today, a real support for the

:10:20.:10:26.

endeavour to put teaching very much at the top of the agenda. Could I

:10:27.:10:31.

also commend the government for having listened. This has been an

:10:32.:10:38.

exemplar in terms of the way in which we can work across the

:10:39.:10:42.

different divides politically in this house and beyond, and I hope

:10:43.:10:53.

that, and I refer now to speculation in the more reliable media, no one

:10:54.:10:59.

will be punished in any way for having been prepared to listen and

:11:00.:11:06.

debate. The idea that a minister should not be able to express their

:11:07.:11:10.

view internally within the government is a disgrace. And I know

:11:11.:11:17.

that, I don't wish to bring in party political matters, but I know

:11:18.:11:21.

Conservative MPs are said to call the Prime Minister mummy but I

:11:22.:11:26.

remember mummy telling me that she heard me once and heard me twice and

:11:27.:11:31.

didn't want to hear me again but you can't conduct government on that

:11:32.:11:35.

basis. And therefore whatever happens on the 8th of June, I hope

:11:36.:11:40.

we will move forward understanding that the spirit of cooperation

:11:41.:11:46.

create better legislation which is more easily implementable and

:11:47.:11:49.

received a wider welcome that would otherwise be the case and therefore

:11:50.:11:55.

achieves is objected also I would like to thank the Minister for his

:11:56.:12:00.

words, repeating those of Jo Johnson, relating to the move as

:12:01.:12:08.

rapidly as possible to subject rather than institutional comparator

:12:09.:12:14.

and I think this is an important part of what we are debating on what

:12:15.:12:21.

has Amendment 72 morphed into Amendment 23 and is back with is in

:12:22.:12:29.

a different form today. I also want to say how impressed I've been as a

:12:30.:12:32.

new member of this house with the crossbench contributions and I

:12:33.:12:39.

repeat the commendation that Lord Kerslake made rather than going over

:12:40.:12:44.

them again. I do think that ministers and civil servants have

:12:45.:12:50.

been of the highest possible calibre in being prepared to listen and

:12:51.:12:59.

respond and I thank them for it. ... Associate us with the eloquent words

:13:00.:13:03.

we have heard here. There will inevitably be a measure of

:13:04.:13:07.

disappointment not all of your Lordships whisper and has been

:13:08.:13:10.

accepted unequivocally by the other house but we have made immense

:13:11.:13:15.

strides and we are deeply appreciative of the way in which the

:13:16.:13:19.

ministers have listened and come forward with proposals here. If I

:13:20.:13:25.

can pick up one thing about which we are particularly pleased, that there

:13:26.:13:28.

will be Adelaide in implementing this while there is a review because

:13:29.:13:33.

there are some key measures within this Bill which do need more

:13:34.:13:37.

reflection to see if they are the right path to be treading -- there

:13:38.:13:42.

will be a delay. I think we can appreciate that has been built in

:13:43.:13:46.

but we appreciate the measures the government has taken to come towards

:13:47.:13:51.

us on these issues. My Lords, first I should declare an interest as a

:13:52.:13:57.

full-time employment Council member of Kings College London. I had not

:13:58.:14:01.

expected to speak in this part of the debate and I will be speaking

:14:02.:14:06.

again later but since I am on my feet I would also like to reiterate

:14:07.:14:10.

and agree with everybody who has said how much we appreciate the ways

:14:11.:14:15.

in which the government has listened to opinions and to this house

:14:16.:14:20.

generally and I also feel we have come a long way. And in this context

:14:21.:14:27.

and speaking in order to bring back a couple of points that were made in

:14:28.:14:33.

the earlier debates by the noble duke, the Duke of Wellington, and

:14:34.:14:38.

myself in the context of amendments table and since the noble duke is

:14:39.:14:42.

unable to be here this morning, I am going to make them briefly on both

:14:43.:14:49.

of our behalf is. I think like pretty much everybody here we

:14:50.:14:59.

welcome strongly the delay in implementing the issue and I would

:15:00.:15:02.

like to endorse the remarks on this and I'm delighted to hear that we

:15:03.:15:09.

are moving very fast to a situation where we have sub sect level rather

:15:10.:15:14.

than institutional level assessments. -- subject level. I

:15:15.:15:18.

would like to make the point that one of the reasons we became so

:15:19.:15:26.

concerned about the TEF is putting a label on institutions is potentially

:15:27.:15:29.

very damaging to it. One of the things which has been to me rather

:15:30.:15:35.

an eye-opener is the extent to which perhaps inevitably, I have been

:15:36.:15:43.

rather surprised by the extent to which the sector in the view of

:15:44.:15:46.

government is the organised universities you get -- universities

:15:47.:15:57.

UK and at by how few good mechanisms there are for the bill team and the

:15:58.:16:02.

Department to actually get the voice of students as opposed to

:16:03.:16:06.

occasionally that of the National unions are students and students

:16:07.:16:08.

have been desperately concerned about this. They are in a world

:16:09.:16:12.

where they are paying fees and the reputation of the institutions is so

:16:13.:16:16.

great and they have been worried and is deeply opposed to anything which

:16:17.:16:21.

just put a single label on them and I think it is this single national

:16:22.:16:28.

ranking which caused many concerns. Therefore what I would like to say

:16:29.:16:32.

is a couple of things which are really for the incoming secretary of

:16:33.:16:36.

state and government and Minister which I hope they will bear in mind.

:16:37.:16:40.

The first is something which other people have already alluded to, the

:16:41.:16:43.

fact that we have a pilot going on and a system of graves which is

:16:44.:16:47.

going on and I understand it is underweight and there are enormous

:16:48.:16:50.

lessons to be learned from it but I very much hope that after the

:16:51.:16:55.

election the government will think very hard about how they use that

:16:56.:16:59.

information and publish it and whether or not they are in any sense

:17:00.:17:05.

obliged to come forward with the type of single rank National League

:17:06.:17:11.

table which has caused so much anxiety to students. And I do think

:17:12.:17:17.

that it is of great concern and it is hard to see how this serves the

:17:18.:17:26.

purpose which is also expressed in the current Conservative manifesto

:17:27.:17:31.

of preserving the reputation of our great university sector. The other

:17:32.:17:37.

thing which I do feel is something I would love the incoming government

:17:38.:17:43.

to think about is how to widen out their contacts with not just the

:17:44.:17:49.

organised sector, not just universities UK, but with the

:17:50.:17:52.

academics and students who are really what the sector is about. We

:17:53.:17:57.

have great universities not because we have activist managerial vice

:17:58.:17:59.

chancellors but because they are autonomous in large measure

:18:00.:18:04.

internally as well as these are the weak state and that is a real

:18:05.:18:09.

concern and since you are going to have an office for students, it

:18:10.:18:12.

would be very good if post election we could actually make it genuinely

:18:13.:18:18.

an office for students. Thank you. My Lords, this is a very big Bill

:18:19.:18:26.

and I share the feeling of Lord in lieu that is perhaps one we will not

:18:27.:18:30.

seek for a long time to come and we should enjoy what we are seeing. I

:18:31.:18:37.

think we should bear in mind that this bill attracted over 700

:18:38.:18:42.

amendments and has resulted at the latest count in 31 major concessions

:18:43.:18:46.

made by the government to the voices raised both in the other place but

:18:47.:18:49.

particularly here in relation to some of these issues. The noble

:18:50.:18:57.

Baroness was right to reflect on the fact that we have in the Kvist

:18:58.:19:01.

although impotent is indeed the end of the process rather than the whole

:19:02.:19:05.

process -- in front of us is important. In the list of things

:19:06.:19:13.

that have moved in the bill that are important aspect not just freedom of

:19:14.:19:17.

speech which is tremendously important but also measures which

:19:18.:19:20.

will improve collaboration in the sector and will help reverse the

:19:21.:19:25.

decline in part-time students and will assist those mature students

:19:26.:19:30.

who wish to come back and paves the way for more working if they are

:19:31.:19:36.

going out of flexible causes. These are more changes to the

:19:37.:19:38.

infrastructure of the higher education system and will make it

:19:39.:19:41.

better and have not been picked up today because they were dealt with

:19:42.:19:44.

early in the process but they are important as have not been

:19:45.:19:47.

forgotten. We also do not have anything today about the UK are eye

:19:48.:19:51.

and the developments in that area which is to change radically the

:19:52.:19:57.

consensus operating in science and research more generally -- in the UK

:19:58.:20:03.

RI. It is important to reflect the changes went through after debate

:20:04.:20:06.

and discussion after some minor adjustment but not many primarily

:20:07.:20:09.

because there was an effort made to make sure that the words being used

:20:10.:20:14.

to describe the changes made were understood properly and a lot of

:20:15.:20:17.

time was spent in going around talking to people and make sure they

:20:18.:20:20.

were happy with that. This whole process has been -- is an example of

:20:21.:20:29.

what this house is good at, which should be more widely developed

:20:30.:20:35.

within the political debate, that there is room for civilised debate

:20:36.:20:38.

and discussion about every issue, it does not have to be party political,

:20:39.:20:47.

it can be small p political but it can aim to arrive at a better

:20:48.:20:50.

overall solution and I am sure what we're achieving today has ticked the

:20:51.:20:56.

box on all these areas. The four motion introduced by the noble

:20:57.:21:03.

Viscount the Minister which I'm grateful to him before and he spent

:21:04.:21:07.

time, having been warned by us not to spend so much time on his feet,

:21:08.:21:13.

be time for that as ended and was necessary to go through that process

:21:14.:21:16.

but we have all benefited from it because these words are important in

:21:17.:21:20.

understanding the changes made at relatively high speed in the last

:21:21.:21:23.

few days in order to get this bill to a point where it could pass

:21:24.:21:26.

through both houses so I'm grateful to him for that and I think his

:21:27.:21:30.

words are important and as far as I could tell they were the same as

:21:31.:21:33.

those used in the other place, close reading of Hansard might be required

:21:34.:21:38.

but I'm confident that this ability is there to make sure women right

:21:39.:21:42.

place. On the definition at university I have confidence that is

:21:43.:21:45.

what is now in the statute will get us to appoint that will reach out to

:21:46.:21:50.

a point which will allow us to have a better understanding it

:21:51.:21:54.

constitutes a university which will be of benefit to us both internally

:21:55.:21:55.

in the UK and On the TEF which has been the main

:21:56.:22:10.

issue, the main concern, three points. I think it is important that

:22:11.:22:16.

we pick out the flurry of amendments that the main factor that this is

:22:17.:22:21.

that together Parliament retains a lock on how the TEF will be

:22:22.:22:27.

delivered and the design and the implementation. I think that is

:22:28.:22:31.

important, partly because of the way in which the review will work but

:22:32.:22:36.

partly also because of the change to an affirmative regulation of

:22:37.:22:39.

unnecessary regulations of this. I think that is good and I welcome

:22:40.:22:43.

that. A number of noble Lords have mentioned the focus that may be

:22:44.:22:51.

behind it in relation to course level issues. I wonder if I could

:22:52.:22:56.

just ask the Minister if he can reflect a little on that. I don't

:22:57.:23:04.

think this is an Iva- or, is that the less that can be said about an

:23:05.:23:09.

institutional measure and the more that can be said on what is actually

:23:10.:23:15.

going on in the courses and subjects taught in university, the battle

:23:16.:23:18.

that will be and I wonder if he would like to confirm that that is,

:23:19.:23:22.

at least in part with the government is also trying to get to because

:23:23.:23:26.

that will take a lot the heat out of the issues that remain in this area.

:23:27.:23:32.

On the issue of the of the pilot result, which was touched on by Lord

:23:33.:23:36.

Kerslake, there are questions about that and I look forward to hearing

:23:37.:23:40.

the responses. It seems to mirror reflecting on the issues we have in

:23:41.:23:45.

front of us that way you are committing to carry out a review of

:23:46.:23:49.

this is you, digging up the trains and examining how these uses are put

:23:50.:23:54.

together, reflecting on how it is presented, how it appears in public,

:23:55.:23:59.

I think it would be injudicious to make too much of an issue about the

:24:00.:24:03.

publication of the pilots, which are only pilots, which we all know are

:24:04.:24:09.

not perfect and not the way that this thing runs in the long run. It

:24:10.:24:18.

would be helpful if more could be said on this point. My Lords, there

:24:19.:24:24.

is a fourth motion, I think it is a technical one, it wasn't referred to

:24:25.:24:28.

much by the noble Lord the minister but it is consequential on

:24:29.:24:31.

amendments to affirmative regulations and affects the rather

:24:32.:24:34.

narrow issue, the question of accelerated degrees, where an

:24:35.:24:38.

institution wishes to complete in a shorter period of time than is

:24:39.:24:42.

conventional in this case, the course or degree it is teaching,

:24:43.:24:46.

that it will be possible for it to raise fees to compensate for that. I

:24:47.:24:49.

think this is probably a good thing but I wonder if, when it comes to

:24:50.:24:54.

responding that you can confirm that these amendments do not affect the

:24:55.:24:59.

good progress we're making on trying to make a more flexible system

:25:00.:25:02.

available in higher education will encourage people to come in, take

:25:03.:25:08.

part in the course, go out and work, come back, all the flexibility that

:25:09.:25:10.

goes with credit transfer and flexible courses should not be

:25:11.:25:14.

debarred because course fee structures are being inflexible. My

:25:15.:25:21.

Lords, I would like to make a Fisher brief comments in response to those

:25:22.:25:26.

contributors to this short debate. Can I just start by agreeing with

:25:27.:25:30.

the comments made by the noble Lord Lord Stevenson and 2-mac about the

:25:31.:25:35.

spirit in which this bill has been taken to the House. I agree with

:25:36.:25:38.

pretty much everything the noble Lord has said. I would like to start

:25:39.:25:44.

by addressing some points made by baroness Lady Brown, particularly in

:25:45.:25:48.

terms of protecting university title. I would like to thank once

:25:49.:25:52.

again the noble Lords for the active engagement around new clause one and

:25:53.:25:56.

in particular the noble Baroness for making such strong arguments for the

:25:57.:26:01.

need to protect the value of University title. We recognise the

:26:02.:26:04.

need for strong protections, which is reflected in our amendment in

:26:05.:26:09.

you. The noble Baroness Lady Brown also asked about universities asking

:26:10.:26:14.

as critics of government -- acting of critics. There was a mention of

:26:15.:26:20.

China. I agree that universities and stuff must have proper freedoms to

:26:21.:26:24.

question and test perceived wisdom. And to put forward new ideas and

:26:25.:26:30.

controversial or unpopular opinions. Which is why we have ensured that

:26:31.:26:34.

these continue to be enshrined in legislation and the public interest

:26:35.:26:41.

government 's conditions which will be imposed on only registered

:26:42.:26:46.

providers as the UFS considers appropriate, it's important at this

:26:47.:26:50.

late stage in the bill to reemphasise this and I thank the

:26:51.:26:54.

noble Baroness for that. I would like to thank Lord Dursley for the

:26:55.:27:07.

progress made on the TEF. I would like to respond to him and reassure

:27:08.:27:12.

the noble Lord Lord blanket. Lord Kerslake asked of the independent

:27:13.:27:17.

review would be open to amending the existing rankings, a different set

:27:18.:27:20.

of rankings on a system of ranking at all. I'm pleased to give the

:27:21.:27:26.

noble Lords of this House the categorical answer that yes, the

:27:27.:27:29.

independent review is required by our amendment which leads us to

:27:30.:27:36.

consider whether those names are appropriate. The review is also

:27:37.:27:41.

required to consider whether such schemes are in the public interest

:27:42.:27:45.

and other matters that they consider relevant. The independent reviewer

:27:46.:27:48.

would therefore be free to describe the matters described by the noble

:27:49.:27:53.

Lords so I hope that answers that question. The noble Lord Lord

:27:54.:27:58.

Kerslake and the noble Lord Lord blanket asked if the trial results

:27:59.:28:03.

of TEF would not be published until after the election and I can confirm

:28:04.:28:07.

that the Higher Education Funding Council will publish this's TEF

:28:08.:28:11.

results after the general election on eighth June. I would like to say

:28:12.:28:16.

briefly some thanks to the noble Baroness Lady Deitch for kind

:28:17.:28:22.

comments about the important issues of freedom of speech and more

:28:23.:28:25.

generally for the considerable contribution and she has made

:28:26.:28:28.

personally on these important issues. Moving on to courses which I

:28:29.:28:34.

think the noble Lord Lord Stevenson raised, absolutely, it is desirable

:28:35.:28:40.

to move towards the assessment of courses, because as we know,

:28:41.:28:43.

students when they are looking at which university to go to, look, or

:28:44.:28:48.

perhaps they should look, thinking of my own children, at what causes

:28:49.:28:55.

are most suitable for them, that is a desirable way forward and doesn't

:28:56.:29:00.

mean that the full spotlight is on the focus themselves which I suggest

:29:01.:29:03.

is the gist of the questions about is very much the spirit of what I'm

:29:04.:29:11.

aiming to do. The noble Lord Lord blanket praised Chris husbands and I

:29:12.:29:17.

would like to say that I do agree indeed that Chris Husband has made a

:29:18.:29:23.

significant contribution towards the TEF and I want to thank noble Lord

:29:24.:29:27.

Lord blanket as well for his contributions to this debate and

:29:28.:29:34.

praise for the TEF chair. The noble Baroness Lady Woolf raised some

:29:35.:29:37.

points about not publishing the results of this your's ratings. I

:29:38.:29:42.

would like to point out that the first TOWIE assessments are well

:29:43.:29:47.

under way, and almost 300 providers, I think it's actually 299, opted to

:29:48.:29:54.

participate, fully aware that by participating they would receive the

:29:55.:29:58.

ratings, so they would be published. I should make that clear in terms of

:29:59.:30:05.

the point that she raised. I do believe that I have covered, there

:30:06.:30:09.

is one final point that I would like to cover raised by the noble Lord

:30:10.:30:17.

Lord Stevenson. He asked if this affects the ability for flexible

:30:18.:30:21.

learning and I can confirm that they do not. So we do agree with him

:30:22.:30:24.

about the importance of flexible learning. And with that my Lords I

:30:25.:30:29.

beg to move. The question is that the motion may be agreed to do. As

:30:30.:30:34.

many that are in agreement say content, the contrary say not

:30:35.:30:38.

content, the contents have it. The motion may be moved formerly. The

:30:39.:30:43.

question is that motion brother Mike B agreed to, those in favour say

:30:44.:30:46.

content, those against sin not content. My Lords I beg to move

:30:47.:31:01.

motion C that this has agrees with the Commons in the amendments of 15

:31:02.:31:06.

A and 15 B in lieu. Turning to the issue of appeals against revocation

:31:07.:31:09.

of degree awarding powers and University title. We introduced

:31:10.:31:14.

amendments during the passage of the bill in this house which provide

:31:15.:31:18.

additional safeguards around the revocation of degree awarding powers

:31:19.:31:24.

and University title. By clearly setting out when these powers can be

:31:25.:31:29.

used. This was in recognition when these are last resort powers,

:31:30.:31:33.

amendments were also passed relating to appeals against such decisions.

:31:34.:31:38.

But report stage in this House the noble and learned and Lord Lord

:31:39.:31:41.

Judge and others advanced compelling arguments about the need for strong

:31:42.:31:47.

appeals provisions in cases where a provider's degree awarding powers

:31:48.:31:55.

title revoked. Including the first we take tribunal to take the

:31:56.:31:59.

decision. We absolutely agree that the powers in this respect need to

:32:00.:32:04.

be subjected to the right safeguards so I am pleased to say that the

:32:05.:32:08.

other place has agreed these amendments in lieu, amendment 78 a

:32:09.:32:14.

278 age. The same aims as a Lords amendment 78 and 106 but would align

:32:15.:32:18.

the wording more closely with that used elsewhere in the legislation.

:32:19.:32:23.

The amendments allow an appeal on a limited grounds and permit the first

:32:24.:32:28.

tier tribunal to retake any decision of the OS as to revoke degree

:32:29.:32:32.

awarding powers or University title. I would like to thank the noble and

:32:33.:32:40.

learned and Lord Lord Judge along with the noble Baroness Lady Felix

:32:41.:32:44.

Abril powers of the committee for the time, energy and expertise that

:32:45.:32:48.

they have put into the scrutiny of this bill. Moving to the issue of

:32:49.:32:52.

student electoral registration, in both this House and the other place,

:32:53.:32:56.

we have heard powerful and convincing arguments about the

:32:57.:33:00.

importance of student electoral registration. I do commend the noble

:33:01.:33:05.

Baroness 's Lady Royal and Lady Garden and other noble lords who

:33:06.:33:08.

have spoken eloquently on this issue. We all agree that

:33:09.:33:11.

participation in the democratic process by all parts of society is

:33:12.:33:16.

vital for a healthy democracy. We have thought carefully about the

:33:17.:33:19.

issues raised both in this place and the other place. In place of the

:33:20.:33:26.

amendment passed on this issue at report stage I'm pleased to invite

:33:27.:33:31.

this House to agreed amendments 15 A- 15 B in lieu, which will improve

:33:32.:33:35.

the electoral registration of students. The amendments to this by

:33:36.:33:42.

permitting the UART FS two compose a process of registration which will

:33:43.:33:47.

require governing bodies to take steps required by the U FS to

:33:48.:33:52.

facilitate cooperation with the bodies in England. The amendment

:33:53.:34:00.

replaces requirement within the new regulatory frame network while

:34:01.:34:04.

equally importantly maintaining an altered the statutory roles and

:34:05.:34:08.

responsibilities of ER ohs for ensuring the accuracy of the

:34:09.:34:12.

register. These amendments will complement the existing powers of

:34:13.:34:21.

the Euros. The UFS will have regard to ministerial guidance, is sued

:34:22.:34:24.

under the general laws of the bill. This layout of the government

:34:25.:34:28.

expects in relation to the electoral registration condition alongside

:34:29.:34:33.

expectations about the other function of the UART FS. In using

:34:34.:34:37.

the term co-operation in the amendment we anticipate that the

:34:38.:34:40.

ministerial guidance will state that is part of this corporation Mac that

:34:41.:34:45.

the URI FS should require providers to facilitate student electoral

:34:46.:34:49.

registration. We also anticipate that the guidance will state that

:34:50.:34:57.

providers will cooperate with ERos for purposes of maintaining the

:34:58.:35:03.

accuracy of electoral registers. There are many excellent examples

:35:04.:35:06.

across the sector of methods to encourage students to join the

:35:07.:35:10.

electoral register including models put in place by the universities of

:35:11.:35:13.

Sheffield and Cardiff which provide examples of good practice. I also

:35:14.:35:18.

wish to take this opportunity to thank the noble Baroness Lady Royal

:35:19.:35:22.

for championing this issue and recognising the work that she and

:35:23.:35:25.

others have taken forward on registration at the University of

:35:26.:35:31.

Bath. Through our amendments the URL as well have power to impose an

:35:32.:35:34.

electoral registration condition to deal with higher education providers

:35:35.:35:41.

not doing enough to cooperate with administrators. When imposed the

:35:42.:35:44.

commission takes effect as their requirement. It will oblige action

:35:45.:35:49.

to be taken. The clear rain is whether you are FS to look across

:35:50.:35:53.

the sector and when needed to make sure that necessary action is taken.

:35:54.:36:01.

The committee than Compal steps to be taken so that registration can be

:36:02.:36:07.

facilitated. Noncompliance as with any registration condition is

:36:08.:36:11.

possible including from you FS sanctions and I want to reiterate

:36:12.:36:15.

our commitment that the ability of students to register to vote should

:36:16.:36:19.

be as broad and strong as possible. To conclude, my Lords, the

:36:20.:36:23.

government shares the aim of increasing the number of students

:36:24.:36:25.

among young people registered to vote. We agree with the noble Lords

:36:26.:36:30.

that it is vital that we have a healthy democracy that works for

:36:31.:36:33.

everyone and the views of students and young people are reflected in a

:36:34.:36:37.

democratic process. My Lords I believe that this amendment will

:36:38.:36:41.

help achieve this goal and I beg to move.

:36:42.:36:46.

The question is seen would be agreed to. -- Motion C. I speak to motion

:36:47.:36:59.

at the very briefly. The original bill produced an appeal system that

:37:00.:37:05.

was far too narrow. The Amendment proposed by the Lords and myself

:37:06.:37:09.

suggested it should be wider. We used words which were reflective of

:37:10.:37:15.

advocacy rather than law. We argued that the ground of appeal should be

:37:16.:37:18.

on the basis of the decision being wrong. That view appealed to this

:37:19.:37:25.

House. We have reconsidered it am a we have discussed it with the

:37:26.:37:29.

secretary of state and the Minister. The Amendment now proposed by the

:37:30.:37:34.

Government makes much better lot and in those circumstances I support the

:37:35.:37:39.

Government's amendments. Villa my Lords, I declare my interest as the

:37:40.:37:42.

register and I am very grateful to the Government for tabling

:37:43.:37:48.

amendments a and 15 B and I put on record my specific things to the

:37:49.:37:52.

ministers Joe Johnson and Chris Skidmore along with her officials

:37:53.:37:56.

for their time and their willingness to find a compromise following the

:37:57.:37:59.

adoption by this House of my Amendment. This issue of advocacy by

:38:00.:38:07.

my honourable friend, who has done much work on the registration of

:38:08.:38:10.

students to vote and by organisations like Catt ballot, the

:38:11.:38:21.

voice and use of Association of the lecture ministers was very upland

:38:22.:38:25.

selecting my case and I have to say the chief executive John Turner

:38:26.:38:28.

expressed some surprise that the Minister suggested at the report

:38:29.:38:31.

states that the association did not take a positive view. It is divided

:38:32.:38:38.

on the issue, but I trust they will now do everything possible to ensure

:38:39.:38:41.

all universities comply with this new requirement, this new

:38:42.:38:46.

obligation, at the earliest opportunity. I well understand that

:38:47.:38:50.

we all have the same aim to enable the greatest number of students to

:38:51.:38:54.

register to vote and will shape the future of this country so it works

:38:55.:38:58.

for the future of young people. It will probably not be possible for

:38:59.:39:02.

ministerial guidelines to be published before the enrollment of

:39:03.:39:06.

students this autumn, so I hope that whatever minister is in office will

:39:07.:39:12.

draw attention of higher education institutions to best practice that

:39:13.:39:18.

exists, for example that has been cited today and I am very proud of

:39:19.:39:23.

what Bass has done in this in these endeavors. Could the Minister... I

:39:24.:39:26.

am very grateful to the Minister for the just and in the guidance, very

:39:27.:39:32.

welcome, but I wonder if he could say when the guidance is likely to

:39:33.:39:39.

be published and also when the Government, if it is the

:39:40.:39:44.

Conservative government, might expect higher education institutions

:39:45.:39:47.

to comply with the new obligations, because while smooth might not have

:39:48.:39:51.

another general election for perhaps five years, there will be local

:39:52.:39:57.

Government elections in May 2018 and it's my fervent hope that all

:39:58.:40:03.

institutions would have a system in place by then. My Lords, I read a

:40:04.:40:07.

rate my thanks and I look forward to working with the next Government to

:40:08.:40:11.

ensure that maximum number of students registered to vote, so not

:40:12.:40:14.

only their voices are heard, but their views are expressed in the

:40:15.:40:20.

ballot box, thus enabling them to exert maximum influence that they

:40:21.:40:24.

should in the Democratic life of this country. As it won't speak

:40:25.:40:32.

again on this particular bill, I also think the way in which all

:40:33.:40:35.

benches have cooperated and collaborated on this bill has been

:40:36.:40:39.

extraordinary and very, very welcome. To be partisan and just for

:40:40.:40:43.

a moment, I have to say a great thanks goes to my normal friend Lord

:40:44.:40:48.

Stevenson and the support he is received from Molly Critchley. I

:40:49.:40:50.

miss my noble friend will be stepping down from the front bench

:40:51.:40:55.

shortly and I think he has done the most superb job am a notch as for

:40:56.:40:58.

the Labour benches but for the House as a whole. I look forward to

:40:59.:41:01.

working with him on the back benches. Thank you, my Lords. And I

:41:02.:41:08.

very really add support, having been a staunch supporter of this

:41:09.:41:11.

Amendment, and in trying to engage young people in the importance of

:41:12.:41:15.

voting and elections? I think this is a very valuable step in pointing

:41:16.:41:20.

out to enable them to get involved in the university level. Once again,

:41:21.:41:24.

grateful for the Amendment which has come in from the Government. If I

:41:25.:41:29.

may say, if we are trying to involve young people in voting, wouldn't it

:41:30.:41:31.

be wonderful if we could now think of lowering the voting age to 16 to

:41:32.:41:39.

allow more of them to do so? The Amendment in this motion was regards

:41:40.:41:47.

to the appeals system is, I think, greatly improved, as my noble friend

:41:48.:41:53.

Lord judge has said and I am delighted that this has happened,

:41:54.:41:58.

because I think it is of vital importance in relation to the very,

:41:59.:42:05.

very serious matters that the Office for Students has power to deal with.

:42:06.:42:15.

My Lords, I want to thank the ministers and I include in this

:42:16.:42:20.

particular thanks Lord Young for a reason which I will explain in a

:42:21.:42:28.

moment, and also the Minister in the comments for the very kind way in

:42:29.:42:33.

which various reactions of mine to this extremely important bill have

:42:34.:42:39.

been handled. Lords, I want to mention one particular matter which

:42:40.:42:48.

does not arise especially under this motion, but from my point of view,

:42:49.:42:56.

it's rather important. When the noble Baroness Lady Brown raised the

:42:57.:43:01.

issue with regards to the new power to search the headquarters of higher

:43:02.:43:08.

education providers, she indicated that this new power was something

:43:09.:43:16.

that the higher at education suppliers anticipated with some

:43:17.:43:20.

apprehension. In response to that, my noble friend read out the

:43:21.:43:30.

statutory requirements before such a war could be granted in schedule

:43:31.:43:38.

five of the bill. And I ventured to suggest, I had listened to a lot of

:43:39.:43:43.

this in and without, particularly talking myself, but on this

:43:44.:43:46.

particular occasion it occurred to me that one of the assurances that

:43:47.:43:51.

the academic community were entitled to get was that these particular

:43:52.:43:57.

restrictions, which are quite powerful and important, would be

:43:58.:44:01.

definitely the subject of consideration by the magistrate. And

:44:02.:44:08.

I suggested that the magistrate should sign a document to that

:44:09.:44:13.

effect. I got a letter almost immediately, which is still on the

:44:14.:44:17.

website, to say that such a thing was unheard of and I thought, well,

:44:18.:44:25.

in that case, it's 20 years since I handed over with confidence my

:44:26.:44:31.

responsibilities for this part of what is now the Ministry of Justice

:44:32.:44:41.

to my noble successor, so it is a long time since I dealt with this

:44:42.:44:44.

particular thing directly. But that is what I was told. I thought, in

:44:45.:44:49.

that case, the thing to do is to alter the words of the word to make

:44:50.:44:52.

it clear that the war in carries that with that. And that was

:44:53.:44:57.

objected to for all sorts of reasons, which are lordships may

:44:58.:45:01.

remember, and some of them were put forward by my noble friend Lord

:45:02.:45:09.

Young at the report stage. I felt rather strongly about it, as he

:45:10.:45:13.

recognised, and he kindly said that he would consider it further at the

:45:14.:45:18.

full report stage, which gave me an opportunity, which otherwise I

:45:19.:45:20.

wouldn't have had, to raise the matter at report stage. I was still

:45:21.:45:27.

very insistent on this because I couldn't see any objection to it and

:45:28.:45:34.

I'm greatly obliged to the Minister in the comments, Ian Johnson, for

:45:35.:45:38.

raging at the last minute that I would get a chance to deal directly

:45:39.:45:44.

with the Ministry of Justice, from which the objections to my

:45:45.:45:48.

amendments were coming. -- for arranging. In that afternoon, I was

:45:49.:45:59.

able to meet the official in the department, the Ministry of Justice,

:46:00.:46:03.

and that part of it for which I say I used to have long-ago

:46:04.:46:10.

responsibility, and he eventually told me that in fact, the procedure

:46:11.:46:14.

for dealing with warrants had now been altered by orders of the Lord

:46:15.:46:23.

Chief Justice, particularly in criminal cases, so at the end of the

:46:24.:46:28.

application for the war and, strangely enough, there is a place

:46:29.:46:32.

for the magistrate to indicate whether or not he or she agrees that

:46:33.:46:38.

the war and should be granted and if so what the reasons are for their

:46:39.:46:43.

decision. And he said that he thought this was probably the

:46:44.:46:47.

general tract is in relation to warrants, because this is not a

:46:48.:46:52.

criminal warrant under this bill, in relation to warrants in the

:46:53.:46:59.

magistrate court. Am I know about -- noble friend did in fact say that

:47:00.:47:04.

that was the position when we came to move the motion on the third

:47:05.:47:11.

reading. I want therefore to express my gratitude to the ministers and

:47:12.:47:26.

also the team, the build team from the Department for Education, for

:47:27.:47:29.

their kind treatment of me in connection to this and other matters

:47:30.:47:36.

as well. But I do think that it is important that, where a ministry

:47:37.:47:41.

other then the Minister directly responsible for the bill, gives the

:47:42.:47:48.

advice to block an Amendment coming from somebody who, after all, is

:47:49.:47:51.

thought of as a Government supporter, should be blocked, in a

:47:52.:47:58.

way that depends on their expertise and for which, with all respect to

:47:59.:48:06.

Mr Johnson's rate for righty of imminence, he wouldn't be

:48:07.:48:08.

particularly interested in the magister 's courts procedure for a

:48:09.:48:14.

warrant. So it's nothing really to do with him. It is similarly for my

:48:15.:48:24.

nubile friend -- noble friend,, it is damaging way of damaging your

:48:25.:48:31.

colleagues without apparently much responsibility and my qualifications

:48:32.:48:36.

therefore for thanks in relation to the work that has been done behind

:48:37.:48:42.

the scenes here is modified to an extent by that particular matter

:48:43.:48:45.

which I think the ministers responsible for the bill have a

:48:46.:48:53.

right to have it made clear that it was nothing to do with them and it's

:48:54.:48:58.

come from a source for which they have only the responsibility of

:48:59.:49:06.

being in the one Government. I was going to intervene on this point

:49:07.:49:09.

because I think the case for excepting the amendments have been

:49:10.:49:16.

made very strongly by Baroness were real and Lord judge, but this has

:49:17.:49:22.

put me in mind of two things I thought we should share with the

:49:23.:49:29.

House. First of all, the noble lord has been quite active on this bill

:49:30.:49:33.

on a narrow issue and therefore I have got to know him better and he

:49:34.:49:36.

kindly shared with me a speech he gave recently at a rather arcane

:49:37.:49:40.

group of people who seem to be interested in the Minister does a

:49:41.:49:46.

lot, a matter I'm sure the Lord goes to ever be, but the first time I

:49:47.:49:50.

heard of it. They debate series important issues. His address was

:49:51.:49:54.

about the quality of legislation going through your Lordship's house.

:49:55.:50:00.

I recommended to all noble Lords, because I observed a little of what

:50:01.:50:06.

he has said, and she has been... When the annals of this Parliament

:50:07.:50:09.

are written up, I hope there is space for this little vignette of

:50:10.:50:15.

persistence over every other aspect of life, which have resulted in a

:50:16.:50:18.

terrific results. They didn't quite give the nuance that he thought he

:50:19.:50:22.

was going to end up with that I just want to share that with the House

:50:23.:50:24.

because there weren't many of us there late at night when this was

:50:25.:50:29.

finally resolved, but it is worth bearing in mind. The Lord makes the

:50:30.:50:35.

point that, very often in considering legislation, there is a

:50:36.:50:41.

mentality that sits in on the building which is called the tyranny

:50:42.:50:45.

of the bill, and the tyranny of the bill is an article of faith which is

:50:46.:50:49.

that the bill must be right, and it must be right because the people who

:50:50.:50:53.

put it together has spent most of their professional lives working on

:50:54.:50:56.

this piece of legislation, particularly in the case of higher

:50:57.:51:01.

education, they are not going to give up a,, let alone a word or a

:51:02.:51:07.

phrase, without considerable resistance. Any praise avidly backed

:51:08.:51:13.

legislation in both houses and get around that and I mention this point

:51:14.:51:17.

because we found this a lot of times that the results that we are seeing

:51:18.:51:23.

today, they weren't always... Perhaps I shouldn't have done, but I

:51:24.:51:26.

did say because I mentioned it at the time and I thought of that, that

:51:27.:51:29.

we were in a spirit of cooperation trying to get a better legislation.

:51:30.:51:33.

It didn't feel like that at the time. Certainly not on day one of

:51:34.:51:37.

the committee, when we had every chance to compromise on the issue,

:51:38.:51:42.

the Minister offered the chance to take away the issue and look at it

:51:43.:51:47.

every conceivable reason to say no every conceivable reason to say no

:51:48.:51:50.

and I don't think that was to the benefit of the bill. But the point

:51:51.:51:55.

that the Lord was making was that he was blocked at every attempt to get

:51:56.:51:57.

this very sensible measure through, a measure which he is, he was too

:51:58.:52:04.

kind to say it, but he knew a lot more about it than probably anybody

:52:05.:52:08.

else on the planet, and they still said he was wrong, but he persisted

:52:09.:52:13.

but and got it to the point where it was agreed, but it was agreed in a

:52:14.:52:16.

slightly craven way, which is the point I want to make. The front

:52:17.:52:20.

bench still resisted the need to amend the bill to reflect the know

:52:21.:52:29.

-- noble lordLord, and they found a way to do it anyway. I'm not sure

:52:30.:52:33.

that's the best way we make legislation, idly thought that with

:52:34.:52:37.

you. -- I leave that thought with you.

:52:38.:52:43.

My Lords I want to make a view brief comments in response to this debate.

:52:44.:52:52.

Can start by thanking the noble and learned and Lord Lord Judge for his

:52:53.:52:56.

kind comments and supporting government amendments. We welcome

:52:57.:53:01.

his support and thank him and also Lord Lisvane for his work and

:53:02.:53:06.

engagement this issue. I would also like to thank the noble Baroness

:53:07.:53:12.

Lady Royal for her persistence and passionate commitment to the cause

:53:13.:53:17.

of student electoral registration including as I said earlier at her

:53:18.:53:21.

own university, the University of Bath. She asked me when the guidance

:53:22.:53:26.

on student electoral registration would be published. Can I reassure

:53:27.:53:31.

her that he ministerial guidance to the U F as will be assured shortly

:53:32.:53:39.

after it is established. And its guidance to providers will be issued

:53:40.:53:44.

in mid-2018 in preparation for the move to the new regulatory

:53:45.:53:47.

frameworks are the sector will have the chance to express its views on

:53:48.:53:51.

the regulatory framework during the public consultation this autumn. I

:53:52.:53:57.

listened carefully to the comments made by my noble and learned and

:53:58.:54:04.

friend, Lord Mackay. Can I say first of all that I thank him for his time

:54:05.:54:09.

and expertise and engagement on the bill. He was obviously referring

:54:10.:54:13.

specifically to the matter of the warrants. I would like to apologise

:54:14.:54:20.

for any misunderstandings that arose through the process to say rather

:54:21.:54:25.

than being drawn into further debate on the matter I hope he understands

:54:26.:54:30.

that, although it was somewhat protracted, we as I say got there in

:54:31.:54:35.

the end. With that, my Lords, I beg to move. That motion C be agreed to,

:54:36.:54:45.

as many of the opinion is a content, the contrary not content, the

:54:46.:54:51.

contents have it. Motion D moved formerly. The question is that

:54:52.:54:57.

motion D be agreed to, those of that opinion is a content, the contrary

:54:58.:55:01.

not content, the contents have it. Motion E, Viscount Younger. My

:55:02.:55:10.

Lords, I beg to move motion E that the Lords to agree with the comment

:55:11.:55:17.

in their - the Commons on the amendment. Our reforms are designed

:55:18.:55:23.

to make it simply for high-quality providers to contribute to greater

:55:24.:55:26.

student choice and ensure that our higher education sector remains

:55:27.:55:32.

innovative and can respond to changing economic demands. We must

:55:33.:55:37.

be clear that new providers cannot come at the price of lowering the

:55:38.:55:40.

quality bar. We are committed to protecting the value of English

:55:41.:55:44.

degrees and throughout the passage of the bill we have added to the

:55:45.:55:47.

legislative protections to achieve this. At report stage in this house

:55:48.:55:54.

we have tabled an amendment based on a proposal from the noble Baroness

:55:55.:56:00.

Lady Woolf requiring the UFS to request advice from a relevant body

:56:01.:56:07.

on quality standards before awarding powers or revoking them on the

:56:08.:56:11.

grounds of quality of provision. The rule of the body would be similar to

:56:12.:56:17.

that of the A 's CDP. The position we are putting in place will build

:56:18.:56:24.

on the valuable work they have done over the years. For further strength

:56:25.:56:30.

of this requirement for expert advice in particular this amendment

:56:31.:56:33.

makes clear that if there's not a designated quality body to carry out

:56:34.:56:38.

the role the committee that the UFS must establish to carry it out must

:56:39.:56:41.

feature a majority of members who are not members of UFS. Additionally

:56:42.:56:48.

in appointing those bodies, their advice must be informed that the

:56:49.:56:53.

interest listed in the tours, this will ensure good information. This

:56:54.:56:59.

amendment also makes it clear that the advice must include a view on

:57:00.:57:02.

whether the provider under consideration can maintain quality

:57:03.:57:08.

and standards, and in line with the arguments put forward by Lady Woolf,

:57:09.:57:13.

it requires the UFS to notify the Secretary of State as as soon as

:57:14.:57:16.

possible after it grants degree awarding powers to a provider who

:57:17.:57:19.

has not previously delivered a degree course and validation

:57:20.:57:24.

agreement. So let me be clear that, is the case at the moment, I would

:57:25.:57:28.

expect the Secretary of State's guidance to the UFS on degree

:57:29.:57:33.

awarding powers to continue to require that a provider's

:57:34.:57:37.

eligibility be reviewed if there was any change in its circumstances such

:57:38.:57:41.

as a murder or a change of ownership. The UFS has powers under

:57:42.:57:47.

the bill to remove degree awarding powers from a provider whether our

:57:48.:57:50.

concerns as to the quality and standards of its higher education

:57:51.:57:54.

provision following such change. I can confirm that we expect the UFS

:57:55.:57:58.

to seek advice from the relevant body on any such quality concerns

:57:59.:58:02.

before taking the step of revocation. My Lords, I beg to move.

:58:03.:58:08.

The question is that motion E B agreed to. I would like to first of

:58:09.:58:15.

all take the opportunity to thank the government and noble minister

:58:16.:58:21.

and Minister for higher education sincerely for listening so carefully

:58:22.:58:27.

and patiently to the arguments that I and many others put forward on

:58:28.:58:34.

these issues. I would like to follow other noble Lords by saying that

:58:35.:58:43.

while this has been a grind all parts of the house have found

:58:44.:58:45.

something to discuss and agree and in that sense it has been, I would

:58:46.:58:51.

not say enjoyable but certainly an educational and ultimately a

:58:52.:58:54.

positive process. I would like to repeat that I appreciate the time

:58:55.:58:57.

that everyone in the Lords is put into this and very much appreciate

:58:58.:59:05.

the work put in by the team. This clause which I am very happy to see

:59:06.:59:10.

moving towards the statute book does seem to be slightly ill understood

:59:11.:59:16.

perhaps outside this chamber, certainly outside this building. I

:59:17.:59:20.

think it might be worth my while to reiterate some of what I think is

:59:21.:59:23.

important about it. I would be grateful if the minister would let

:59:24.:59:27.

me and the house know if he disagrees with anything I am about

:59:28.:59:31.

to say, not too slowly. It seems to me that one of the major reasons

:59:32.:59:36.

this bill is so important is that it sets out what is happening in the

:59:37.:59:38.

sector could, possibly for decades to come. And that is a reason why we

:59:39.:59:45.

have to take account, both of whether it can provide innovation

:59:46.:59:50.

and new ideas and allow the sector to move but also whether it's going

:59:51.:59:57.

to provide guarantees of quality and standards and protect students, many

:59:58.:00:04.

of whom take out large loans, and the whole country against what is

:00:05.:00:11.

always possible, which is that some institutions and some people will

:00:12.:00:12.

not have the interests of the not have the interests of the

:00:13.:00:16.

country and the sector at heart. And I do think that innovation is a very

:00:17.:00:20.

important part of it and I would like to also take this opportunity

:00:21.:00:24.

to welcome in this house the fact that the government has recently

:00:25.:00:30.

given some money to the new university being established in

:00:31.:00:33.

Herefordshire which I think is important because of the role it

:00:34.:00:37.

will play in helping to develop engineering skills and to work with

:00:38.:00:41.

small businesses and supply chains and I just think that's the sort of

:00:42.:00:45.

institution we need many more of it and I am really pleased that the

:00:46.:00:48.

government has given its support. But I think it is also worth

:00:49.:00:53.

remembering that one of the things that has bothered us very much in

:00:54.:00:57.

thinking how this bill should go forward is the knowledge that it's

:00:58.:01:01.

only too easy to create a situation in which institutions arise and gain

:01:02.:01:06.

access to public funds, whose existence is very hard to justify

:01:07.:01:14.

and can do enormous harm. And it is not just this country although the

:01:15.:01:19.

US has given us the largest and most catastrophic bankruptcy is leaving

:01:20.:01:22.

students stranded. It's after all not long ago that the Home Office

:01:23.:01:26.

was moving to investigate and shut down higher institution

:01:27.:01:30.

establishments in this country which were... This part of the bill has

:01:31.:01:35.

always been enormously important. And I am extremely happy because it

:01:36.:01:40.

seems to me that one of the things that this clause does is instituted

:01:41.:01:45.

quality assurance process which focuses the whole attention of the

:01:46.:01:52.

office the students on a number of critical issues when this is

:01:53.:01:57.

granting awarding powers and which also clarifies the importance of

:01:58.:02:01.

independent advice from outside institutions. Again, this is always

:02:02.:02:06.

important because an institution creates its own understandings and

:02:07.:02:10.

the world. And I think that the the world. And I think that the

:02:11.:02:15.

potential strengthening and improvement of the advice which the

:02:16.:02:18.

UFS will get from outside which will build on the cue a A but will

:02:19.:02:23.

potentially be more independent and therefore will be both an additional

:02:24.:02:28.

safeguard and add more to the process, is very, very often. And

:02:29.:02:33.

the other thing about this clause is that it clarifies the general public

:02:34.:02:41.

the way in which the government envisages new institutions coming

:02:42.:02:45.

through and it clearly envisages two pathways, that many people will come

:02:46.:02:49.

through validation which is a process which is has grown over the

:02:50.:02:55.

years, but if an institution is to get degree awarding powers from day

:02:56.:02:59.

one, and this is something of which the Secretary of State must be

:03:00.:03:05.

aware, noble Lord Willetts earlier pointed out that anything that goes

:03:06.:03:09.

wrong tends to rant on the desk of the Secretary of State. What seems

:03:10.:03:12.

to me important here is that we have an extra element, not of formal

:03:13.:03:15.

accountability but something that will bring into the process is both

:03:16.:03:21.

a clear ability for the Secretary of State to create a new institution

:03:22.:03:25.

which has to be awarding powers because this is seen as something

:03:26.:03:28.

they are capable of from day one but also something in which this process

:03:29.:03:34.

has to be public and one which cannot slide through. Unobserved. So

:03:35.:03:42.

really I think this is an area in which we have made enormous progress

:03:43.:03:45.

and maybe all this would have happened anywhere but I am extremely

:03:46.:03:49.

happy to see it on the face of the bill. I'd like to finish once more

:03:50.:03:54.

by expressing my gratitude to everyone who has worked on the bill

:03:55.:03:59.

and has listened to our concerns and my appreciation of all the comments

:04:00.:04:03.

and information and hard work that the colleagues in the House across

:04:04.:04:11.

all benches but it would. And I welcome this amendment. I would like

:04:12.:04:17.

to endorse everything that the noble lady has said. I want on behalf of

:04:18.:04:26.

the House to thank her for luck hard work and effort she has put into

:04:27.:04:31.

securing these changes. This part of the bill in its original form was

:04:32.:04:36.

the one that gave cause to a great deal of worry, for me the most

:04:37.:04:44.

worrying of all because in my view it threatened the reputation of

:04:45.:04:48.

higher education, not only in this country but overseas as well. I

:04:49.:04:55.

think we are now in a much better place, the only thing that I would

:04:56.:05:00.

ask is that there is some monitoring of how it works in practice. I think

:05:01.:05:07.

it is very important that there should be some evaluation to make

:05:08.:05:13.

absolutely clear to the higher education sector and those who might

:05:14.:05:15.

want to enter it that there are going to be rigorous tests of both

:05:16.:05:20.

quality and standards before any quality and standards before any

:05:21.:05:24.

institution can have degree awarding powers and access to grants and

:05:25.:05:30.

loans through the system of financial support that we have.

:05:31.:05:35.

Having said that, I am grateful to the government and the Minister for

:05:36.:05:40.

bringing forward this amendment because I think it is a huge

:05:41.:05:44.

improvement to the bill compared with what we had originally. I moved

:05:45.:05:50.

briefly to intervene to say that at the end of the directions on this

:05:51.:05:55.

important aspect of the bill, I think we ended with a more rigorous,

:05:56.:06:03.

more transparent and more demanding regime for alternative providers in

:06:04.:06:05.

higher education and we have ever had before. I regretted that it was

:06:06.:06:10.

not possible to get legislation during the previous parliament that

:06:11.:06:14.

would have gone alongside the initiatives we took that we

:06:15.:06:18.

certainly have a very significant regulatory regime in place now.

:06:19.:06:24.

The Baroness has been one of the people pressing for this I would

:06:25.:06:29.

question one point she has said, she said that the Home Office had closed

:06:30.:06:37.

down lots of higher education institutions because they were bogus

:06:38.:06:40.

and didn't need proper standards. I think those were colleges, which you

:06:41.:06:45.

can call yourself a college and there were people getting into

:06:46.:06:48.

Britain because they said they were studying at colleges, but there has

:06:49.:06:57.

always been a regime for validating degree awarding powers. I think

:06:58.:07:00.

would be dangerous if we get in this House that there have been lots of

:07:01.:07:04.

bogus higher education institutions, which I don't think has been the

:07:05.:07:08.

case. The problem was colleges. And even there, the Home Office did get

:07:09.:07:13.

occasionally over exuberant. At least one college which won a Queens

:07:14.:07:20.

award was subsequently closed down. They were tried to stop people from

:07:21.:07:27.

coming to study a vocational qualification in a college, but

:07:28.:07:30.

setting that point aside, we now have a very rigorous regime and I

:07:31.:07:34.

hope we will now see the spirit of what Baroness Wolf said practice,

:07:35.:07:41.

which is that we need innovation in higher education in this country and

:07:42.:07:45.

although it is great when existing providers innovate, we know in many

:07:46.:07:47.

sectors the best way to get innovation is for new people coming

:07:48.:07:52.

in doing things differently, but I hope we can all agree, especially

:07:53.:07:56.

with his regime in place, we can give a very warm welcome to new

:07:57.:08:02.

higher education is attuned to this country. From these benches, we

:08:03.:08:08.

would agree as well that this is the result of the work, we have got a

:08:09.:08:14.

much better regulatory framework, rigorous tests for degree awarding

:08:15.:08:21.

powers are important. I was very much taken with the Minister's

:08:22.:08:24.

comments when he said there should be no lowering of quality in

:08:25.:08:28.

protecting the value of university degrees. There are private

:08:29.:08:34.

providers, the majority of private knowledge do a fantastic job. But

:08:35.:08:38.

let us not kid ourselves that there are still some other colleges, and I

:08:39.:08:44.

would use the bogus colleges, which, with these new powers, these new

:08:45.:08:49.

regulations, will not carrying on letting the quality of our

:08:50.:08:53.

university degrees down and they will not let university students

:08:54.:08:57.

down. It cannot be right, for example, that a student is enrolled

:08:58.:09:01.

to do a degree course which is validated by one of our

:09:02.:09:05.

universities, the only requirement is one GCSE. That cannot be right in

:09:06.:09:11.

our higher education system. So these new powers, from what the

:09:12.:09:15.

Minister has said, will ensure that we can be proud of all of our

:09:16.:09:23.

private providers as well. I echo much of what has already been said,

:09:24.:09:26.

particularly the introductory remarks about the noble Baroness

:09:27.:09:31.

Baroness Wolf, who has inviting this corner we have been supporting her

:09:32.:09:34.

all the way, I'm glad we have reached the point where we are all

:09:35.:09:37.

very happy with what we have got to. The main focus of the amendments

:09:38.:09:43.

report and also of the ones that are report and also of the ones that are

:09:44.:09:48.

now being presented by the Government in Leo, are about the

:09:49.:09:52.

ongoing arrangements in universities and colleges, sorry, universities,

:09:53.:10:02.

in order to provide higher education providers to provide higher degree

:10:03.:10:05.

level politicians. The problem with what happens when eight existing

:10:06.:10:10.

provider is taken over by merger or purchase, still I think needs a

:10:11.:10:13.

little bit of care and concern because there is a fear within the

:10:14.:10:17.

sector that this might well become a feature, perhaps an unwelcome

:10:18.:10:22.

feature, not against new institutions. We always said we

:10:23.:10:25.

would support those, we'll want them to be proper institutions, with

:10:26.:10:28.

procedures and processes in place, and on that basis would

:10:29.:10:30.

that. But if there is an issue where that. But if there is an issue where

:10:31.:10:34.

a commercial imperative rather than academic imperative, I wonder if the

:10:35.:10:38.

Minister can make some comments about what he anticipates will be

:10:39.:10:43.

the arrangements should that merger or takeover be in play?

:10:44.:10:51.

My Lords, I would like to start by echoing the thoughts made by the

:10:52.:10:57.

noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, by thinking the Baroness Lady Wolf in

:10:58.:11:02.

safeguarding the quality of English degrees and also her engagement in

:11:03.:11:07.

the bill's overall, which I may not have said so far. I would like to

:11:08.:11:12.

agree with the noble Baroness about the importance of diversity in the

:11:13.:11:15.

sector and agree that new providers, such as the new bottle on technology

:11:16.:11:20.

and engineering, will serve the interests of students and wider

:11:21.:11:25.

society well. The noble Baroness Lady Blackstone and board stories

:11:26.:11:27.

spoke about the important point about all of the of standards, which

:11:28.:11:31.

has been a theme throughout this bill. I would like to agree with

:11:32.:11:36.

them that we must maintain quality and standards in the sector and the

:11:37.:11:41.

bill is designed to do just that. Our Amendment further restrictions

:11:42.:11:43.

the bill's provisions in that respect, which are help the House

:11:44.:11:51.

now is behind. The noble lord Lord Stevenson, at the very end of his

:11:52.:11:56.

brief comments, asked about change of circumstances, in other words,

:11:57.:12:00.

what happens every degree power older is sold to someone with no

:12:01.:12:06.

experience, will there be a review? And if they were sold to a body with

:12:07.:12:11.

no track record, we would expect their eligibility to continue to

:12:12.:12:15.

hold degree awarding powers, but it would be subject to a full review.

:12:16.:12:19.

That review would be implicit. I would like to finish by thanking my

:12:20.:12:26.

noble friend Lord will it for his engagement throughout the bill's

:12:27.:12:30.

passage. The bill, if I may say so, builds on his work as minister and

:12:31.:12:36.

the proposals for his original White Paper of 2011, headed students at

:12:37.:12:42.

the heart of the system. My words, I beg to move. The question is that

:12:43.:12:47.

motion he be agreed to. As many are of that, say content, not content

:12:48.:12:56.

say not. The contents have it. The question is that motion as it be

:12:57.:13:01.

agreed to. As many are of that opinion is a content, to the

:13:02.:13:04.

contrary not content, the contents have it. Motion G. My Lords, I beg

:13:05.:13:13.

to move most motion G that this House does not insist on Amendment

:13:14.:13:19.

156 and you agree with the comments in their commitments 1568, 156 B and

:13:20.:13:24.

156 C in Leo. I welcome this chance to discuss what's more international

:13:25.:13:30.

students will stop we have heard some of the most passionate debates

:13:31.:13:35.

in this House. Let me just say that the Government welcomes genuine

:13:36.:13:37.

international students who come to study in the United Kingdom on

:13:38.:13:42.

Monday enhanced our educational institutions both financially and

:13:43.:13:47.

culturally, the in Everest the experience of domestic students and

:13:48.:13:49.

they become important ambassadors for the United Kingdom in later

:13:50.:13:54.

life. For these reasons, we have no plans to target or reduce the scale

:13:55.:13:58.

of student migration to the United Kingdom and, as I have said before,

:13:59.:14:02.

and as a house full of heard, we have no plans to cap the number of

:14:03.:14:06.

genuine students you can come to the UK to study, nor to limit an

:14:07.:14:13.

institution's ability to recruit a genuine international students based

:14:14.:14:16.

on its TEF rating or any other basis. Therefore, I do not believe

:14:17.:14:23.

that the Amendment is desirable. Discussed in this House on this

:14:24.:14:27.

issue has provided us with an important opportunity to reflect on

:14:28.:14:31.

the message we send out to the world on the welcome that international

:14:32.:14:33.

students receive when they apply to study in the UK. We want or promote

:14:34.:14:39.

this offer and make sure it is understood and communicated and I

:14:40.:14:43.

would like to set out what the new duty as. Firstly, the duty will

:14:44.:14:48.

extend the information publication duty on the designated data body on

:14:49.:14:52.

the Office for Students so it explicitly covers what information

:14:53.:14:59.

would be helpful to current work respect of international students

:15:00.:15:02.

and the registered higher education providers back recurred them are

:15:03.:15:05.

thinking of doing so. The new duty will also require consideration of

:15:06.:15:11.

publication of information on international student numbers. My

:15:12.:15:14.

Lords, this goes further than ever before to ensure that international

:15:15.:15:17.

students get the information that they need about our offer. Alongside

:15:18.:15:24.

this, we believe we need a campaign to raise awareness and that is why,

:15:25.:15:27.

in tandem, we are refreshing our international engagement strategy.

:15:28.:15:39.

We will seek reviews on, we will distribute there are embassies

:15:40.:15:43.

overseas and the British Council as well as universities themselves.

:15:44.:15:45.

This will ensure that the right messages yet to the right places. My

:15:46.:15:51.

Lords, we have a good story to tell and we are keen that is told. We are

:15:52.:15:55.

remains one of the best places in remains one of the best places in

:15:56.:15:59.

the world for research and innovation. Let me assure you that

:16:00.:16:04.

the UK research and innovation will continue to fund an extensive range

:16:05.:16:08.

of international collaborations, directly facilitating partnerships

:16:09.:16:12.

between UK research establishments and their international

:16:13.:16:18.

counterparts. We expect the UK are I board members and UK are I itself to

:16:19.:16:24.

take a clear role in fostering collaboration internationally. We

:16:25.:16:27.

have already included the need to take an international perspective in

:16:28.:16:33.

the job specification of the UKRI board, which is currently being

:16:34.:16:37.

recruited. To underline this, I will confirm that we will ask UKRI to set

:16:38.:16:41.

out in its annual report what work it has undertaken to foster and

:16:42.:16:45.

support such collaborations. My Lords, I beg to move. I would like

:16:46.:16:59.

first to respond to the noble lord Minister's opening statement on this

:17:00.:17:00.

motion and thank him for some of the motion and thank him for some of the

:17:01.:17:04.

things that were set, which picked up one of seems that is in the

:17:05.:17:11.

Amendment that he is proposing to be rejected. I think it is a great pity

:17:12.:17:14.

that they are not on the face of the bill, but he has made some helpful

:17:15.:17:18.

remarks there. I would say in relation to the Government's

:17:19.:17:22.

Amendment that is being moved, that I think it shows yet again that we

:17:23.:17:32.

are slight cross purposes over this. This is not a statistical matter. Of

:17:33.:17:37.

course as to the six enter into it, but is not basically a statistical

:17:38.:17:41.

matter. It is about to be public policy purposes we take with regard

:17:42.:17:52.

to overseas students and so even the improved, suggesting improved ways

:17:53.:17:56.

of statistically analysing overseas students, they don't really address

:17:57.:18:01.

what my Amendment was meant to address. I just want to speak

:18:02.:18:05.

therefore, on I hope you will forgive me for not saying anymore

:18:06.:18:08.

about his Amendment, which I have no objection to at all, but which I

:18:09.:18:13.

don't think actually answers the problems which my Amendment and the

:18:14.:18:19.

Amendment which was moved I the Baroness Royal, the Baroness garden

:18:20.:18:27.

and Lord Miles was the main thrust of which was, to bring an end to

:18:28.:18:35.

what I would regard as a bearing practice of treating overseas hire

:18:36.:18:42.

education students for Public policy purposes as long-term migrants and

:18:43.:18:45.

that, alas, will continue. That Amendment in this House was carried

:18:46.:18:53.

in the last month by a majority of 94 omicron from all groups in this

:18:54.:18:59.

House. So I'm afraid I do speak with deeper Gretz, tinged with some

:19:00.:19:06.

bitterness, at the summary rejection of this Amendment. If the bill

:19:07.:19:10.

before us had followed a normal course, I believe, although I cannot

:19:11.:19:16.

prove this of coarse, I believe that summaries more compromise would have

:19:17.:19:20.

been breached either in the other place where there was substantial

:19:21.:19:25.

support for the Amendment, or through a negotiation between the

:19:26.:19:29.

two houses. The washup process, which we are busy completing now,

:19:30.:19:37.

but to a premature end any such possibility and the fact that the

:19:38.:19:43.

Government felt it necessary to state that, if this Amendment was

:19:44.:19:47.

not brought, they would kill the whole bill, sheds a pretty odd

:19:48.:19:54.

lights on their priorities and on their intransigence will stop

:19:55.:19:59.

altogether, I suggest a rather shabby business. Now, ceasing to

:20:00.:20:07.

treat overseas hire education students for public policy purposes

:20:08.:20:11.

as long-term migrants is not only, I would suggest, a rational choice and

:20:12.:20:18.

one which has, which the chief competitors of this country in the

:20:19.:20:23.

market for overseas students, mainly the US, Australia and Canada, have

:20:24.:20:30.

already adopted, it is also... Has a wide degree of cross party support

:20:31.:20:33.

from a whole series of parliamentary select committees from both houses,

:20:34.:20:39.

most recently just this week from the education committee in the other

:20:40.:20:43.

place. A recent survey by universities and UK shows that a

:20:44.:20:49.

large majority of those polled do not recurred oversea students as

:20:50.:20:54.

economic migrants, do not consider that they contribute to the

:20:55.:20:57.

immigration problems which are the focus of so much public debate at

:20:58.:20:59.

this stage in this country. And the fall in numbers of overseas

:21:00.:21:11.

applications which we are seeing at the moment amply demonstrates how we

:21:12.:21:18.

are already losing market share, and undermining the future validity of a

:21:19.:21:27.

crucial part of our society and our economy, our universities. This

:21:28.:21:31.

morning I listened with great interest to the Foreign Secretary

:21:32.:21:35.

replying to a question on this on the Today programme. He made most of

:21:36.:21:40.

the points that I have just made. So I have no quarrel with what the

:21:41.:21:47.

Foreign Secretary said, merely with what the government is doing. A bad

:21:48.:21:53.

choice has been made in my view and no convincing rationale for making

:21:54.:21:58.

that choice has been forthcoming from the government. In conclusion I

:21:59.:22:01.

would say this, the problem will not go away. And the rejection will not

:22:02.:22:12.

be the end of the story. The damage that this system of treating

:22:13.:22:21.

students as economic migrants will continue to inflict on our

:22:22.:22:28.

universities and soft power assets in the decades ahead. I believe we

:22:29.:22:37.

will need to come back to this issue when the government brings forward

:22:38.:22:39.

as it stated in its white Paper on the Great Repeal bill, comes forward

:22:40.:22:48.

with post-Brexit legislation. I would hope that a period of

:22:49.:22:55.

reflection will bring wise counsel and the realisation that predict

:22:56.:22:58.

victory is like this one are a kind with which we could well do without.

:22:59.:23:16.

My Lords, I would like to briefly congratulate Lord Hannay on the

:23:17.:23:19.

energy he has put into scrutinising the bill, the debates we have had

:23:20.:23:23.

have made it clear that on all sides of the House week support legitimate

:23:24.:23:29.

students coming from overseas to study both because it enhances the

:23:30.:23:33.

academic experience of British students and is good for overseas

:23:34.:23:36.

students and is a great British export. Signalling again that the

:23:37.:23:46.

policy remains to attract legitimate overseas students was more welcoming

:23:47.:23:53.

than Hannay accepted that Lord Hannay accepted although I

:23:54.:23:57.

understand why he made his reservations, he says statistics are

:23:58.:24:00.

less important than policy but I think that the point we had a moment

:24:01.:24:06.

ago from the minister about these new statistics does have

:24:07.:24:11.

considerable potential value. Aside from the general arguments one point

:24:12.:24:18.

about the debate is a genuine empirical disagreement about how

:24:19.:24:21.

many students from abroad overstay in this country. A lot of the debate

:24:22.:24:27.

is shaped by a view that we have a problem with a lot of other stayers.

:24:28.:24:34.

If there is such a problem we need to tighten the regime, if not, if it

:24:35.:24:41.

can be established authoritatively that there is no such problem I

:24:42.:24:46.

think that would be a significant contribution to the debate and the

:24:47.:24:50.

statistics at the moment are very unreliable. If someone comes to

:24:51.:24:55.

study and tells someone doing one of these surveys they are studying and

:24:56.:24:59.

then stays on to work for time and leaves and answers the question when

:25:00.:25:03.

they leave, what have you been doing, and they say, working, they

:25:04.:25:08.

count as a leaving worker, not a student. If someone comes to study

:25:09.:25:12.

thinking they are here for more than a year but end up because many

:25:13.:25:17.

masters courses are advertised as your bid you can complete them in 11

:25:18.:25:21.

months, they leave, having been in Britain for 11 months, they do not

:25:22.:25:26.

count as one of those students departing. There are lots of

:25:27.:25:30.

problems like this in the statistics. They have proved a bane

:25:31.:25:34.

in the debate about overseas students and their numbers. I very

:25:35.:25:37.

much hope that the important initiative which the Minister has

:25:38.:25:42.

announced today, and which was discussed in the other house

:25:43.:25:46.

yesterday, he enables us to get to the bottom of those empirical

:25:47.:25:50.

questions that would be an important contribution to the debate about the

:25:51.:25:52.

minister can confirm that those type of questions will be within the

:25:53.:25:59.

scope of the exercise and we will learn more about it. I also hope

:26:00.:26:04.

that, thinking of all the time we have spent on attracting overseas

:26:05.:26:08.

students to this country that we might briefly remind the government

:26:09.:26:13.

of the importance of encouraging British students to study abroad.

:26:14.:26:20.

And dare one say it, if they were to study abroad for more than a year it

:26:21.:26:23.

would reduce net migration, not that that's the main reason for promoting

:26:24.:26:27.

it. But when one looks at half a million students going from abroad

:26:28.:26:32.

to study in Britain and 30,000 British students studying abroad

:26:33.:26:37.

especially if we are to be a dynamic global presence even post-Brexit we

:26:38.:26:41.

do need to do better at promoting and encouraging students to go

:26:42.:26:45.

abroad and one way to do that is to make it easier for them to take out

:26:46.:26:48.

loans to finance this study abroad and I hope that is something we will

:26:49.:26:55.

look at. For my last intervention I would like briefly to congratulate

:26:56.:27:01.

the ministerial team that has brought this bill to a conclusion.

:27:02.:27:08.

Viscount Younger has been courteous throughout the debate. Jo Johnson

:27:09.:27:12.

has been extraordinarily diligent in spending time in this chamber,

:27:13.:27:21.

observing our debate. This is a very substantial piece of legislation, we

:27:22.:27:27.

only legislate... This legislation finally puts in place regulatory

:27:28.:27:34.

regime that matches higher education in Britain. We could not have

:27:35.:27:37.

carried on with the old grant giving body an informal regulator using the

:27:38.:27:45.

power of the purse to rhetoric the sector, this is a better, more

:27:46.:27:51.

transparent, rules -based system. I think our debates in this house on

:27:52.:27:57.

all sides, it is clear that we care passionately about the autonomy of

:27:58.:28:04.

higher education institutes, the new provisions we have been debating

:28:05.:28:08.

today and hands that autonomy. I have to say, looking back, one of my

:28:09.:28:12.

regrets, thinking of this debate, is, while we intended to look at

:28:13.:28:17.

this from an English perspective from one of the conversations I have

:28:18.:28:25.

heard from vice chancellors, it is clear to me were the biggest threat

:28:26.:28:30.

to our autonomy rise, it is the relationship between the Scottish

:28:31.:28:33.

Government and its universities, if I may say so, it is far more

:28:34.:28:38.

intrusive, far more overbearing than anything that would be acceptable in

:28:39.:28:44.

England. And sometimes we have had an English minister with English

:28:45.:28:49.

teaching responsibilities facing challenges about autonomy for which

:28:50.:28:56.

he is not actually responsible. I hope we will be as avid in

:28:57.:29:00.

scrutinising and protecting the autonomy of Scottish universities

:29:01.:29:04.

which matters enormously in Scotland and more widely. We have a better

:29:05.:29:11.

regulatory regime. We have spoken up for autonomy. And also very

:29:12.:29:17.

significantly, the focus on teaching has reminded us of the importance of

:29:18.:29:22.

the education experience in the University and after so much

:29:23.:29:28.

attention it is excellent that we have spent such time focusing on

:29:29.:29:32.

teaching. Therefore I would like to thank the Minister is, thank their

:29:33.:29:35.

built-in for the way in which they have engaged with many of us as we

:29:36.:29:40.

have had questions to make sense of specific proposals and try to engage

:29:41.:29:45.

with them and indeed this has been a cross-party debate. We've had

:29:46.:29:52.

excellent interventions from experts in crossbenchers, people who work in

:29:53.:29:57.

and understand how education works and that is enormously enhanced our

:29:58.:30:00.

debate. We have heard from opposition benches and I agree that

:30:01.:30:04.

Lord Stevenson has made a very important contribution from the

:30:05.:30:08.

opposition front bench and from the Lib Dem benches I had to remind

:30:09.:30:11.

myself sometimes that we had worked on this together in coalition! And

:30:12.:30:16.

some of the measures now proving so controversial could trace their

:30:17.:30:20.

origins to a government in which I think there was even the Secretary

:30:21.:30:23.

of State that I worked with who belonged to a certain party

:30:24.:30:28.

opposite! But I think all parties have worked together on this and I

:30:29.:30:31.

think we can be proud of the bill now going forward. My Lords, if I

:30:32.:30:37.

may just follow the noble Lord, Lord Willets. In echoing so much of what

:30:38.:30:44.

he said. But I want to start with what the Prime Minister said when

:30:45.:30:51.

she announced the election and she referred to the unelected House of

:30:52.:30:57.

Lords. My Lords, this unelected House of Lords is at its best when

:30:58.:31:04.

it does what it has done in this bill. This is probably one of the

:31:05.:31:08.

most amended bills in the history of Parliament with over 500 amendments.

:31:09.:31:13.

It is because of the expertise that exists in this has across the board,

:31:14.:31:19.

depth and breadth of expertise that no chamber anywhere in the world

:31:20.:31:24.

comes close to buy a factor of maybe ten. For me universities Minister

:31:25.:31:29.

has just spoken. Chancellors of universities, vice chancellors of

:31:30.:31:33.

universities, former vice chancellors of universities at

:31:34.:31:35.

Cambridge, head of Oxbridge colleges and I could go on. Where in the

:31:36.:31:39.

world would you get that and we have had it in this bill. And I'd like to

:31:40.:31:45.

thank the global Lord the Minister Viscount Younger for always being

:31:46.:31:50.

polite and decent and for having listened. It may not be where many

:31:51.:31:55.

others want to be but there has been a lot of movement and the government

:31:56.:32:05.

seen a minister so insidious in attending stages of this bill. And

:32:06.:32:10.

it shows visibly that he is listening. I'd like to thank the

:32:11.:32:15.

noble Lord Lord Hannay for his initiative, he is a former

:32:16.:32:21.

Chancellor of the University of Birmingham where I am proud to be

:32:22.:32:25.

Chancellor today. My Lords at every stage of this bill normally you are

:32:26.:32:29.

not meant to repeat things come you can't make a second reading speech

:32:30.:32:33.

later in a bill. But here there's been a new information and new

:32:34.:32:37.

reports coming out at every stage. So for example and EU UK report

:32:38.:32:41.

revealed that international students, the contribution is much

:32:42.:32:47.

higher than we had ever thought. We quoted ?14 billion, it's actually

:32:48.:32:51.

?26 billion a year. New information to add to what Lord temp max three

:32:52.:32:56.

was trying to do with this amendment. And on top of that the

:32:57.:33:04.

education committee's report on extending opportunities for higher

:33:05.:33:09.

education dated April 25, my lords. Before I go further this unanimous

:33:10.:33:13.

consensus around the country, little known in this house when we won this

:33:14.:33:19.

amendment to close to a hundred votes, that international students

:33:20.:33:23.

should not be included in the not migration figures. The National

:33:24.:33:27.

Union of Students have said as long as they are included in the net

:33:28.:33:31.

migration to districts policies that adversely affect them owing to

:33:32.:33:36.

governmental desire to reduce levels of immigration will only exacerbate.

:33:37.:33:38.

And then they said that the government's abject failure to offer

:33:39.:33:43.

anything substantial and removing international students from net

:33:44.:33:46.

migration targets is, in their words, outrageous. There's immense

:33:47.:33:52.

support for doing so from cross-party parliamentarians, from

:33:53.:33:55.

UK students and from the general public. It is not acceptable that

:33:56.:33:59.

the government continues to ignore this support. So my Lords I come to

:34:00.:34:04.

the report that no one has spoken about, of the House of Commons

:34:05.:34:08.

education committee and their report, published just now, 25th of

:34:09.:34:14.

April. In it they have an entire section on international students

:34:15.:34:18.

and the migration target. They say clearly that as far as we all know

:34:19.:34:24.

this target of 100,000 still exists and yet overall net migration we all

:34:25.:34:28.

know as 273,000, that's the latest figure. Government always gives of

:34:29.:34:35.

removing international students from the figures is, UN rules means we

:34:36.:34:39.

have to include them and treat them as immigrants. My Lords, yes, those

:34:40.:34:44.

are the UN rules. And the government's about answer is always,

:34:45.:34:48.

there's no cap to number of international students, any number

:34:49.:34:54.

welcome. My lords it is a perception that is created by continuing to

:34:55.:34:56.

include them and treat them as immigrants that is the danger. And

:34:57.:35:03.

the Home Secretary and the Tory party conference spoke about

:35:04.:35:07.

possibly reducing the number of international students and that is

:35:08.:35:10.

scary. It's a message that goes out to the outside world. And the

:35:11.:35:15.

Commons education committee said that the majority of their written

:35:16.:35:18.

evidence and witnesses at their meetings were very clear that

:35:19.:35:22.

international students should be removed from the net migration and

:35:23.:35:26.

it would help offset the risks to higher education from leaving the

:35:27.:35:32.

EU. In fact their evidence was unanimous, saying that international

:35:33.:35:35.

students were positive force for education. ?25.8 billion ago,

:35:36.:35:41.

creating over 200,000 jobs. Contributing to the richness of our

:35:42.:35:46.

universities as well as the UK's soft power. And then it is poll

:35:47.:35:53.

after poll, my lords. The contrast poll after the referendum, said,

:35:54.:35:58.

said only 24% of the public thought international students were

:35:59.:36:01.

immigrants. And there was only a 2% difference when split into the Leave

:36:02.:36:08.

25% and the Remained 23%. So whether you are a Brexiteer or a remainder,

:36:09.:36:13.

people don't think international students are immigrants.

:36:14.:36:19.

My Lords, other countries, competitor countries, have targets

:36:20.:36:24.

to increase the number of international students. The demand

:36:25.:36:28.

for countries like India for studying abroad is increasing at 8%

:36:29.:36:33.

a year and yet the NUS poll found that slightly half of overseas

:36:34.:36:36.

students thought that the British Government was either not welcoming

:36:37.:36:41.

or not welcoming at all to international students and there are

:36:42.:36:48.

half as many Indian students today, or 2015, as it was in 2010. But in

:36:49.:36:53.

Canada and Germany, it is growing by 8% a year. This is why, please

:36:54.:36:58.

answer this question, why is it that, with the UK's main competitors

:36:59.:37:04.

for international students, the United States of America, Canada and

:37:05.:37:08.

Australia, all categorized international students as temporary

:37:09.:37:12.

migrants rather than permanent immigrants? Why can't we do the

:37:13.:37:16.

same? What are we scared of? And then the statistics that the noble

:37:17.:37:23.

Lords spoke of, the Minister spoke of, what statistics him a my Lords?

:37:24.:37:29.

The statistics are bogus because they are based on the international

:37:30.:37:34.

passage survey. There are some estimates that 90,000 international

:37:35.:37:38.

students overstay, other estimates of 40,000. And yet they are our

:37:39.:37:45.

supposedly a report, eight Home Office commission report that shows

:37:46.:37:49.

only 1% of international sins overstay their visas, according to

:37:50.:37:53.

the Times. That would be 1500. At this report is not being released.

:37:54.:37:59.

Tell us why this report is not being released and this is supposedly

:38:00.:38:04.

based on new exit checks that the Government has. My Lords, I have

:38:05.:38:08.

been a lone voice in this Parliament and I feel like a lone voice in this

:38:09.:38:13.

country, asking the Government to bring back physical, visible exit

:38:14.:38:19.

checks at all our ports and airports and borders. The Prime Minister Tony

:38:20.:38:24.

Blair took them away in 1998, it is negligent from a security point of

:38:25.:38:29.

view, negligent from illegal immigration point of view, negligent

:38:30.:38:34.

from the ability to count the number of international sins coming in and

:38:35.:38:37.

out of the country. Every passport, EU and non-EU should be scheduled

:38:38.:38:42.

this country, every passport should be scanned when people leave the

:38:43.:38:46.

country. Then we would know the correct statistics. Why can't the

:38:47.:38:49.

Government implement this straightaway? So, my Lords, I

:38:50.:38:53.

conclude the committee said that over the last few years six

:38:54.:38:58.

parliamentary committees have recommended the removal of students

:38:59.:39:01.

from the net migration target with opinions at the highest level. It

:39:02.:39:08.

was spoken about were started, I believe even Liam Fox, they all

:39:09.:39:12.

believe that the international students should not be treated as

:39:13.:39:17.

immigrants and removed from the net migration figures. My Lords,

:39:18.:39:23.

Margaret Thatcher was famously known as, this lady is not for turning.

:39:24.:39:28.

Well, the Prime Minister, by continually saying there would be no

:39:29.:39:35.

election till 2020, is I think, this lady is for turning. So why, why is

:39:36.:39:41.

she not listening to us? Why, because this is such a

:39:42.:39:45.

disappointment, this is ruining the reputation of our country, other

:39:46.:39:49.

universities, of our economy. My Lords, perception becomes reality.

:39:50.:39:55.

It didn't need to be in this bill, my Lords, the Government of Prime

:39:56.:39:58.

Minister can still do this unilaterally and removed

:39:59.:40:03.

international student from the net migration figures. And I would

:40:04.:40:07.

remind the Prime Minister and the Government that, it is better to

:40:08.:40:11.

fail doing the right thing than to succeed doing the wrong thing. My

:40:12.:40:19.

Lords, I will not attempt to emulate the Lord by giving a full speech,

:40:20.:40:24.

but I would like to make a couple of brief points. I strongly supported

:40:25.:40:29.

the noble lord Handley when he introduced his Amendment and have

:40:30.:40:33.

spoken many times on the subject in your Lordship's house. I deeply

:40:34.:40:38.

regret the fact that the Government has not felt able to accept his

:40:39.:40:44.

Amendment and committed to the other place. I echo everything that has

:40:45.:40:49.

been said about the understanding, the capacity for listening, both of

:40:50.:40:58.

the Minister of your Lordship's house and Joe Johnson, but I think

:40:59.:41:01.

it is a pity that an opportunity has been lost. I'm sure we will return

:41:02.:41:10.

to the subject as the noble lord said in a future Immigration Bill.

:41:11.:41:16.

But although I welcome what the Government has said, or what the

:41:17.:41:19.

Minister has said today, and what is in the Commons Amendment before us,

:41:20.:41:23.

I don't think it does go far enough and I think there is going to be

:41:24.:41:30.

real interest in how the Government is able to produce good statistics.

:41:31.:41:35.

My Lords, it is 35 years ago almost to the day when a female -- famous

:41:36.:41:43.

BBC reporter from the Falklands said, we counted them all out and be

:41:44.:41:47.

counted them all in. Well, we need to start doing that with students

:41:48.:41:55.

and in all students. My Lords, however gently, it damages are

:41:56.:42:02.

reputation as a place where, all over the world, students at

:42:03.:42:08.

undergraduate and postgraduate levels can feel welcome. The more we

:42:09.:42:14.

can do to achieve that the better and we must do everything we can to

:42:15.:42:18.

make sure there is no input is at the Terrance. My Lords, I am sorry

:42:19.:42:25.

that, after a very good morning where the Government has made some

:42:26.:42:29.

really good concessions which we are all extremely grateful for, this

:42:30.:42:35.

particular subject is not as great as it should be. -- the concession

:42:36.:42:39.

on the subject. I hope my noble friend of the front bench will take

:42:40.:42:43.

note of that and I hope that we will come back before too long with a

:42:44.:42:51.

reinforced Government front bench and a new determination to accept

:42:52.:42:58.

the logic of the Amendment. Can I strongly support the noble lord's

:42:59.:43:03.

Amendment and indoors which everything the noble lord has just

:43:04.:43:09.

said. We were reminded of the days of Coalition, when I was his

:43:10.:43:12.

opposite number in this House, and I remember the debates that went on

:43:13.:43:16.

between the secretary of State for this and the Home Secretary and on

:43:17.:43:20.

this particular topic where there was, he could never get any movement

:43:21.:43:25.

on seeing the logic colony, and what baffles dairy many of us is that the

:43:26.:43:29.

Government reiterates that there was no cap on genuine international

:43:30.:43:33.

students, and then they say I'm a we will count them as migrants and we

:43:34.:43:36.

are determined to reduce the number of migrants. It is that sequence

:43:37.:43:41.

which makes it so incomprehensible that the Government can't see how

:43:42.:43:44.

very unwelcoming it is to put those things together. We do find it

:43:45.:43:49.

completely baffling that we are not getting any movement on this. We

:43:50.:43:53.

recognise it as an issue that is probably outside the departmental

:43:54.:43:57.

brief of the Minister, but I think I would echo the voices that have been

:43:58.:44:01.

said already that we really do hope that very soon there will be

:44:02.:44:04.

movement on this. The noble lord always speaks with great passion and

:44:05.:44:09.

eloquence on the subject with evidence and with the facts behind

:44:10.:44:13.

him. My Lords, I think this is probably the last time that I shall

:44:14.:44:17.

speak in this bill, so I would like to reiterate that very sincere

:44:18.:44:24.

thanks to the Minister... I shouldn't be getting that wrong at

:44:25.:44:28.

the stage. And to the Minister Joe Johnson, to the build team and the

:44:29.:44:31.

other colleagues who have actually been so helpful to us on what has

:44:32.:44:35.

turned out to be a very long drawn out discussion on this bill. And the

:44:36.:44:41.

Amendment switch of come through today, I think have already improved

:44:42.:44:47.

the bill we have before us. It would obviously have been lovely if we

:44:48.:44:51.

could've had all her amendments, as I said before, but we do recognise

:44:52.:44:54.

that we have done a very good job in making this bill a whole lot better

:44:55.:44:59.

than it was before. I. I can I also echo the things noble lord Lord

:45:00.:45:05.

Stevenson, who has led a collaboration of the engaged, from

:45:06.:45:08.

our benches, from his badges, from the cross benches and occasionally

:45:09.:45:13.

some from the Conservative edges on particular issues as well, to try

:45:14.:45:17.

ensure that we can all get the very best possible out of this bill and

:45:18.:45:21.

indeed to my noble friend Lord story who has been a tower of strength

:45:22.:45:26.

this as well. So, finally, it is to say I think we have made this very

:45:27.:45:31.

much better bill than when it reached us and I'm very grateful to

:45:32.:45:36.

the Minister for helping that to happen. Can I say, in relation to

:45:37.:45:42.

what the Lord said about the Prime Minister's remarks on calling the

:45:43.:45:46.

election, I don't think she said... And I'm only relying on my memory, I

:45:47.:45:51.

don't think she said the unelected House of Lords, what she did say was

:45:52.:45:56.

unelected Lords who had made it clear that, for everything they

:45:57.:46:01.

could do to stop Brexit would be done. Something like that. I don't

:46:02.:46:07.

think it really was a reference to the House of Lords as a whole,

:46:08.:46:12.

because apart from anything else, it wouldn't fit the description. I also

:46:13.:46:19.

want to support what Lord Woolwich said about the hope, he knows much

:46:20.:46:24.

more about the atmosphere in Whitehall than I do, he said that he

:46:25.:46:29.

hoped the research promoted in this might well have a good effect in

:46:30.:46:36.

that erection. Finally, I want to agree with what has been said

:46:37.:46:38.

about the noble lord Lord Stevenson, I hope you will enjoy the freedom of

:46:39.:46:50.

not being on the front bench. I want to include in that all his

:46:51.:46:53.

colleagues in the French bench, and the front bench of the Liberal

:46:54.:47:00.

party, and some of my efforts, I have enjoyed the Corporation and I

:47:01.:47:03.

am very grateful. -- front bench. And the cooperation of many of the

:47:04.:47:13.

Prime Minister referred to us all as Prime Minister referred to us all as

:47:14.:47:15.

some pitchers more than anything else, which is not a consummate in

:47:16.:47:23.

some ways. -- saboteurs. This is a section of the bill for which I

:47:24.:47:26.

think we must except we have made no progress at all. It would probably

:47:27.:47:33.

be wrong of me to give too much detail of what happens on the

:47:34.:47:38.

washer, I was only there for a very small part of it, most of the time I

:47:39.:47:41.

was left hanging on her mobile phone in a remote area which did not work

:47:42.:47:44.

very well and I was getting more frustrated, on my inability to have

:47:45.:47:50.

any influence at all on some of the debates. But one would hope that the

:47:51.:47:55.

arguments that we've found today would lead to at least a discussion

:47:56.:47:59.

about what should be the way forward on a very comp Lex and rather

:48:00.:48:03.

annoying area that we unable seem to be able to get into focus. The fact

:48:04.:48:10.

was, it was made very clear the start, I understand, that the

:48:11.:48:14.

Minister concerned was unable to discuss any concessions in this area

:48:15.:48:18.

and it was ruled off the table from the very beginning. I think it plays

:48:19.:48:24.

a little bit to the conversation we had earlier that there is something

:48:25.:48:28.

dysfunctional about Whitehall on crosscutting issues. We all know the

:48:29.:48:31.

wicked issues are difficult ones, the ones that no one wants to play

:48:32.:48:34.

on, no minister will take full responsibility for. Because prime

:48:35.:48:41.

ministers are not always as powerful as the public misconceptions have,

:48:42.:48:47.

you will not make the progress which is to achieve something genuinely

:48:48.:48:49.

about the whole of the Government, this is a whole that has been

:48:50.:48:52.

created in this area that it think we have fallen into. What appears to

:48:53.:49:00.

be almost uncanny ability of the current Prime Minister to be able to

:49:01.:49:03.

exercise control in a very remote part of the Government. I think

:49:04.:49:07.

there are two other things I would like to say before we hear from the

:49:08.:49:11.

Minister, as he wants this. The first is, I do think a little of

:49:12.:49:17.

what Mort Willetts has said about the need to use the fact that we've

:49:18.:49:22.

been rebuffed here again -- Lord Willetts, to try and get this case

:49:23.:49:27.

right would be a good thing to do. I would like to focus not just on the

:49:28.:49:30.

statistics, they are very important, but it think it might be ambitious

:49:31.:49:35.

to think we will get a counting income accounting out system because

:49:36.:49:41.

of the issue here, the issue is, who was controlling the entry of our

:49:42.:49:45.

students to our universities? The Lord Willetts said we would have the

:49:46.:49:49.

best regulated sector, in terms of the UK if not the world, ...

:49:50.:49:57.

Shouldn't we be trusting them to get the best students that would benefit

:49:58.:50:02.

from the education here? The truth is, it is all second guessed by the

:50:03.:50:06.

Home Office and who have their own teams of people who interview the

:50:07.:50:08.

students nominated by the institutions come and set the quota

:50:09.:50:13.

levels, although they are said to be unlimited, although they are in

:50:14.:50:17.

practice set and only increased on application. It will change the code

:50:18.:50:21.

is available to every institution if they feel that an institution is

:50:22.:50:24.

making mistakes in terms of the people they recruit, not just

:50:25.:50:30.

because at the point of entry, my Lords, but what happens to the

:50:31.:50:34.

students after they've left the responsibility of the institutions,

:50:35.:50:36.

with a get out to the wider world, if they are able to get a job or

:50:37.:50:41.

even if they do disappear from the statistics, somehow the original

:50:42.:50:44.

institution that brought them and is responsible for them. That seems to

:50:45.:50:48.

be a double penalty, in terms of what they are doing but also for

:50:49.:50:51.

future recruitment issues. I think all of this has got to be picked up

:50:52.:50:54.

and looked out. This is not a good system. There is a pilot ongoing, a

:50:55.:50:58.

pilot which is affecting Masters courses, deliberately chosen so the

:50:59.:51:05.

results would be available earlier. There is some hope that we might be

:51:06.:51:08.

able to use that system to drive a different approach to this were

:51:09.:51:12.

trusted institutions, well regulated under a new system which has the

:51:13.:51:16.

support of both houses, is able to make the decisions necessary to

:51:17.:51:19.

recruit the right students to benefit from our system and that the

:51:20.:51:22.

filthy response abilities and duties and activities that everyone we know

:51:23.:51:27.

will do with the soft power of going back to create economic activity

:51:28.:51:30.

before they do to and be good citizens both here in the world. At

:51:31.:51:34.

the moment, we have failed completely and I really regret that.

:51:35.:51:37.

I have the bitterness and were granted as much as the noble lord

:51:38.:51:41.

has share his pain. But I think we must move on from here, this has

:51:42.:51:46.

not, this must not go away, it is too important for the economic

:51:47.:51:50.

future of our country, the institutions concerned who need the

:51:51.:51:53.

students if they're going to be successful and make progress, and

:51:54.:51:55.

for the individuals concerned to her getting the benefits of the

:51:56.:51:58.

education here. I do hope we will make progress at a the disaster we

:51:59.:52:01.

now face. My Lords, the noble Lord Hannay

:52:02.:52:15.

spoke after my initial remarks, I understand how he and others. Views

:52:16.:52:25.

on this international student topic that I do appreciate his

:52:26.:52:28.

understanding of the current process needed to move forward, alluded to

:52:29.:52:36.

by him and the noble Lord Stevenson. In terms of concluding remarks I

:52:37.:52:48.

would like to say that we have had an exceptionally rich debate in the

:52:49.:52:52.

last weeks and months. As the minister in the Other Least noted

:52:53.:53:00.

this House is contributed enormously to the bill, expertise and step has

:53:01.:53:05.

been cleared not just because the nub of amendments but also the

:53:06.:53:09.

quality of the debate. The government has reflected deeply on

:53:10.:53:14.

these points throughout the debate and I hope has understands this now

:53:15.:53:18.

including the most recent amendments, the voice of the sector

:53:19.:53:23.

has also been hurt and I'm glad that the universities work and able to

:53:24.:53:28.

give support to the package of amendments tabled in the other place

:53:29.:53:32.

at the start of this week. I recommend without reservation that

:53:33.:53:36.

the noble Lords give support to this bill, as Lord Willets said it

:53:37.:53:41.

represents the most important legislation to the sect of 45 years

:53:42.:53:46.

and will set the framework for our world-class education sector and

:53:47.:53:49.

global leading research-based to continue to thrive in the 21st

:53:50.:53:55.

century. My lords I beg to move. The question is that motion G B agreed

:53:56.:53:59.

to, those of that opinion will say content, the contrary not content,

:54:00.:54:06.

the contents I have it. Motion H move formally. The question is that

:54:07.:54:11.

motion capital H B agreed to. Those of that opinion say content, the

:54:12.:54:17.

contrary not content, the contents have it. Consideration of Commons

:54:18.:54:22.

reason and amendment to the Digital economy Bill, Lord Ashman pine.

:54:23.:54:50.

My Lords, I beg to move motion A that this House does not exist... I

:54:51.:55:01.

beg to move that the Commons reasons and amendments being considered. The

:55:02.:55:08.

question is that the Commons reasons and amendment now be considered, as

:55:09.:55:13.

many of that opinion say content, the contrary not content, the

:55:14.:55:19.

content Dexter habit. Lord Ashman. My Lords, I beg to move that this

:55:20.:55:24.

has do not insist on amendment Bay and agree with the Commons on the

:55:25.:55:29.

amendments 18, one B, once EMU. This group covers two areas where the

:55:30.:55:34.

other place has offered amendments in view of your Lordships's

:55:35.:55:40.

amendments. Lords amendment one on the universal service obligation

:55:41.:55:44.

challenged the government to be more ambitious on universal Digital

:55:45.:55:48.

connectivity. A broadband was set initially at 10 megabits per second,

:55:49.:55:53.

formed part of our plans to make sure that no one is digitally

:55:54.:55:57.

excluded. Lords amendment one would have disrupted those plans. In our

:55:58.:56:03.

view it makes this an workable and because of the risk of legal

:56:04.:56:08.

challenge would lead to delays in implementation. The US over can only

:56:09.:56:14.

work if it is legally robust and enforceable. EU law requires it to

:56:15.:56:18.

take into account technologies used by the majority of subscribers.

:56:19.:56:22.

Today 30 megabits per second is enjoyed by less than Teddy percent.

:56:23.:56:27.

Two gigabits per second is enjoyed by less than 1%. While we may have a

:56:28.:56:33.

majority taking up 30 megabits in a few years' time, the government

:56:34.:56:45.

wants to implement a USO now. This would be difficult to achieve. No

:56:46.:56:50.

concern to many is that the whole country should access superfast

:56:51.:56:53.

speeds of 30 megabits per second. We show that ambition, we therefore

:56:54.:56:58.

propose that a superfast USO will be reconsidered by Ofcom was 75% of

:56:59.:57:02.

premises across the UK subscribe to superfast broadband. On Lords

:57:03.:57:09.

amendment to the other place agreed with your Lordships's concerns in

:57:10.:57:14.

relation to Bill capping and proposed amendment to a Hindu. As

:57:15.:57:20.

with the Lords amendments we provide that mobile phone customers must

:57:21.:57:23.

have the opportunity to place a limit on their bill. Any limits and

:57:24.:57:27.

cannot be exceeded unless the customer agrees and Ofcom is given

:57:28.:57:31.

enforcement powers. The requirement placed on providers to ensure that

:57:32.:57:35.

customers can contact the emergency services will not be affected. The

:57:36.:57:43.

government also reflected on roving elements but was not convinced of

:57:44.:57:49.

their merit. We do not believe that roaming is the right solution and I

:57:50.:57:55.

will set out our reasons. With regards to switching the bill goes

:57:56.:57:58.

further than the proposed amendment, the provision in the bill confirms

:57:59.:58:03.

Ofcom's power to set a condition about switching relates to operators

:58:04.:58:07.

of all telecom services including fixed line, broadband, and pay-TV,

:58:08.:58:12.

not just mobile phones. My Lords, I beg to move. The question is that

:58:13.:58:23.

motion A B agreed to. My Lords, speaking about motion when, as

:58:24.:58:26.

someone who was renovated Victorian house I know one thing to be true,

:58:27.:58:31.

it is all very well stripping off the woodchip and slapping on some

:58:32.:58:39.

thing else and it's all very well improving the coving and putting up

:58:40.:58:44.

a dado rail but if you don't tackle the fundamentals you soon raising

:58:45.:58:49.

floorboards again. It's the roof, the electricals and the plumbing

:58:50.:58:55.

that call you out. My Lords, I had hoped that this bill would tackle

:58:56.:58:59.

the fundamentals of the nation's Digital plumbing. I had hoped that

:59:00.:59:08.

it would put in train a revolution for our Digital network and really

:59:09.:59:12.

enable the entire country to participate in the digital economy

:59:13.:59:17.

that I believe this bill will be setting out to achieve. I still hope

:59:18.:59:22.

that that is true but I have my doubts. I think without a

:59:23.:59:32.

requirement for a fast digital for the arrival of that fast digital

:59:33.:59:45.

network, we will struggle. I think the notion of 75% threshold

:59:46.:59:51.

description is a tricky way of going about this. I think we will have to

:59:52.:59:57.

use the reporting requirements of gone obliges to do and that is a

:59:58.:00:04.

move forward, how they are driving usage of broadband because we are

:00:05.:00:09.

using the commercial arms of the same companies asked to deliver

:00:10.:00:18.

broadband, to promote the use of the broadband itself. We have a closed

:00:19.:00:22.

loop here that does not have an incentive necessarily to drive up to

:00:23.:00:28.

the 75% threshold. Because I would be more confident in the progress of

:00:29.:00:35.

this country in delivering this network if there was not a dominant

:00:36.:00:41.

player that sits on a Victorian asset of copy wire which it wants to

:00:42.:00:48.

sweat, quite understandably, it has to be for Ofcom to drive our desire,

:00:49.:00:57.

to move forward. We are closing the door on a shiny new bill which tills

:00:58.:01:03.

smells of new paint that just like Mike has I can't help thinking that

:01:04.:01:06.

we will be raising the floorboards on this time and again in

:01:07.:01:11.

Parliaments to come. -- just like in my house. My Lords, we welcome the

:01:12.:01:18.

two amendments proposed in lieu in the motion, just proposed by the

:01:19.:01:23.

noble Lord and Mr. I think we are also at liberty to regret that they

:01:24.:01:28.

don't go further. The is you we are in, which has been well picked up,

:01:29.:01:36.

59% of rural Britain has no access to Internet and that is a concern

:01:37.:01:44.

for a major concern, the root of the problem is that while USO sounds

:01:45.:01:50.

good and is an effective way of getting across the argument that

:01:51.:01:53.

this service should be for everyone, the reality is that unless there are

:01:54.:01:57.

sanctions to make sure that it happens and there is an incentive in

:01:58.:02:00.

terms of investment to make sure that the funding is there for them

:02:01.:02:03.

to take place at an appropriate time, it will never happen, so it's

:02:04.:02:07.

only part of the story. And the effort we have got locked into

:02:08.:02:15.

unfortunately seems to be one that divides the floor, we have that with

:02:16.:02:20.

this amendment although it is a very low floor. But they don't have the

:02:21.:02:22.

aspiration yet embodied in the amendments that this has agrees to

:02:23.:02:31.

get the theme up. We are stuck in a situation where the spirit may be

:02:32.:02:37.

willing, the flesh is weak and we cannot say that we will look forward

:02:38.:02:40.

to this in the immediate future. The root of the problem is another

:02:41.:02:44.

source which is the reliance on the Europe European Commission

:02:45.:02:48.

requirements. The government has made great play of this but I think

:02:49.:02:52.

the point is the only legislative framework under which Europe is

:02:53.:02:56.

operating, one which will fall away in 2019 if the new government gets

:02:57.:03:04.

its way, is that they should be a non-biding guidance in terms of what

:03:05.:03:09.

constitutes a universal service. And yet the government has chosen to

:03:10.:03:12.

interpret that as a limit on what they are doing rather than an

:03:13.:03:15.

opportunity of going further. While we welcome what is happening here we

:03:16.:03:21.

do not think of the mechanics chosen would be at 30 megabits per second,

:03:22.:03:29.

I think we will be back having to look at this in very short order. On

:03:30.:03:35.

the question of mobile phone capping we are pleased that the government

:03:36.:03:39.

has accepted the amendments made to the bill at an earlier stage. This

:03:40.:03:43.

will help consumers not to get into trouble with bills and we're glad

:03:44.:03:52.

they accepted it. I am grateful for those remarks by the noble Lords, if

:03:53.:03:57.

I could refer to the noble Lord Fox he talks about the fundamentals,

:03:58.:04:01.

these are the things we have tried to address in this bill, we have

:04:02.:04:07.

tried to increase digital connectivity around the country and

:04:08.:04:16.

its measures did not... They are part of that. The USO is slightly

:04:17.:04:26.

different. It was never intended to drive increased speeds. We said

:04:27.:04:32.

separately that we share the ambition of the noble Lords to

:04:33.:04:42.

increase those. But of course the USO is there to tackle social

:04:43.:04:51.

exclusiveness. Exclusion is the word I'm looking for, eventually! But I

:04:52.:05:03.

can assure the noble Lords that it's not about delaying superfast

:05:04.:05:11.

connectivity, to the contrary we don't want to be involved in

:05:12.:05:15.

protracted legal disputes. The fact is that the House can legislate for

:05:16.:05:20.

whatever speed it likes but it will only make a difference to people up

:05:21.:05:24.

and down the country if it is implemented properly. That means

:05:25.:05:27.

that the bill must be legally watertight and realistic. The

:05:28.:05:35.

government will put its money where its mouth is and as the noble Lord

:05:36.:05:39.

Stevenson mentioned we have now put in legislation that the broadband

:05:40.:05:44.

USO will be set at a minimum of 10 megabits per second and we will

:05:45.:05:50.

ensure that if the minimum has not been raised to 30 megabits per

:05:51.:05:54.

second by the time take-up of broadband has reached seven the and

:05:55.:06:00.

premises a review must be triggered. That is practical and interesting,

:06:01.:06:02.

it will give this country the fastest USO in Europe. I do hope, my

:06:03.:06:12.

Lords, that we do concentrate on the benefits, so we are receiving from

:06:13.:06:13.

this and I beg to move. The question is that the motion be

:06:14.:06:26.

moved. The contents have it. The question is that Motion B be agreed

:06:27.:06:30.

to. If many of the opinion, say content. The content Abbott. -- the

:06:31.:06:47.

contents have it. I move that the House do not insist on Amendment be,

:06:48.:06:54.

I want to start again, my Lords, by saying the Government accepts and

:06:55.:06:59.

agrees with the spirit of the Amendment 40 which is drafted, it

:07:00.:07:05.

risks potential consequences. It is not clear who would be notifying

:07:06.:07:11.

social media content. The requirement to notify the police if

:07:12.:07:17.

it contravenes any existing legislation could have... This would

:07:18.:07:24.

do little to increase public protection. Amendment 48, we believe

:07:25.:07:32.

will achieve a similar outcome by setting out the expected behaviour

:07:33.:07:37.

while protecting users. As explained in the other place by my right

:07:38.:07:41.

honourable friend, the Minister of state for digital and culture, there

:07:42.:07:45.

is good work being done by some companies to prevent the use of

:07:46.:07:48.

platforms for illegal purposes, but we agree that more can be done by

:07:49.:07:53.

social media to tackle harmful conduct online. Particularly

:07:54.:07:57.

bullying behaviour which can have serious consequences. Our intention

:07:58.:08:01.

is that the code would set out a guidance on what social media

:08:02.:08:06.

providers should do in relation to conduct that is lawful, but

:08:07.:08:11.

nonetheless distressing or upsetting. The intention is that the

:08:12.:08:15.

guidance and legislation will address companies proportionately.

:08:16.:08:19.

We believe that this code, together with the Internet safety strategy,

:08:20.:08:23.

will result in a properly considered copperheads of approach to online

:08:24.:08:30.

safety. One that will deliver protections that this Amendment

:08:31.:08:35.

seeks to procure. The question is that Motion C be agreed to. I have

:08:36.:08:42.

no doubt that the noble lord Stevenson will want to give a more

:08:43.:08:46.

substantial response, but this was supported on these benches very

:08:47.:08:53.

strongly. I do accept that the Minister has tried to incorporate

:08:54.:08:56.

the spirit of the original Amendment in this Amendment coming from the

:08:57.:09:03.

Commons, and my Lord made a number of detailed points about projections

:09:04.:09:08.

to the drafting of the original Amendment, but my Lords, there is

:09:09.:09:13.

one thundering great hole in the Amendment as brought forward by the

:09:14.:09:21.

Minister, which is their is no obligation on the providers to

:09:22.:09:24.

comply with the code of practice once it comes into force, so my

:09:25.:09:29.

Lords, it is nakedly voluntarily code rather than any code that is

:09:30.:09:34.

actually able to be enforced by the secretary of state and that is the

:09:35.:09:37.

major difference between the Amendment that this House passed and

:09:38.:09:40.

the Amendment that is now come forward to us. My Lords, I wonder,

:09:41.:09:46.

he mentioned the Internet safety strategy and the work being done

:09:47.:09:50.

about. Many of us are convinced that when the work on that is done, it

:09:51.:09:53.

will become quite clear that there will be a need for an enforcement

:09:54.:10:02.

power in this kind of obligation, on this kind of code of conduct. I

:10:03.:10:07.

wonder if the Minister will give us an assurance that that will be

:10:08.:10:09.

considered, that the question of enforcement of this kind of code of

:10:10.:10:12.

conduct will be considered as part of the Internet safety strategy and

:10:13.:10:18.

if the overwhelming body of evidence is that such a form of compliance is

:10:19.:10:22.

needed, that the Government will come forward with amendments. My

:10:23.:10:35.

Lords, I want to lay the House too much to repeat what Lord Clement

:10:36.:10:38.

Jones is just sad. No enforcement and no sanctions, but the important

:10:39.:10:45.

thing, and I do recognise the words of the noble lord, the Minister, in

:10:46.:10:49.

reflecting the spirit and intent of our original motion, and I think

:10:50.:10:55.

this is what this Amendment now seeks to do, the Government

:10:56.:11:01.

Amendment, which is to give notice to the social networks. That failure

:11:02.:11:08.

to comply will result in further Government action. And I, like

:11:09.:11:12.

global North Lord Clement Jones, would hope that the Minister would

:11:13.:11:18.

be able to respond positively, particularly on the Internet

:11:19.:11:23.

strategy review, but I think in conclusion, we have had an extremely

:11:24.:11:28.

good examination of the issue at committee stage in the Lords and at

:11:29.:11:34.

the core stage and I do think we now have a policy which is clearly

:11:35.:11:37.

setting out and giving notice to social networks that we do want to

:11:38.:11:46.

ensure proper standards are maintained an action is taken when

:11:47.:11:51.

evidence of abuse occurs. It shouldn't be a matter of days or

:11:52.:11:54.

weeks as it has been to take material down, that is offensive. We

:11:55.:12:01.

have seen evidence of some of the horrendous things that have gone on

:12:02.:12:06.

social networks from the US and Thailand and we do want to ensure

:12:07.:12:11.

that they fully understand the gravity of the situation. I am

:12:12.:12:22.

grateful to the noble lord's marks. Starting right at the last remarks,

:12:23.:12:27.

I think the social media companies are absolutely in no doubt about the

:12:28.:12:32.

Government's determination to her view what they do and live up to

:12:33.:12:38.

their responsibilities. I think we are all agreed on that. We realise,

:12:39.:12:42.

even when some things are technically lawful, they are very

:12:43.:12:47.

damaging and unpleasant and things that are set out to humiliate people

:12:48.:12:54.

have no place in our society. I of course understand why some noble

:12:55.:12:57.

Lords are disappointed that the code of practice is a mandatory, what I

:12:58.:13:02.

think we should have confidence that it will make a difference, if we

:13:03.:13:09.

take it seriously as I suggested that we do, and that the social

:13:10.:13:13.

media companies do. The code of practice will clearly set out our

:13:14.:13:19.

expectations on social media providers. It is in their interest

:13:20.:13:25.

to be responsible in regards to online safety. It is critical for

:13:26.:13:29.

their future, for the users to trust them and protect the health of their

:13:30.:13:35.

brand. . As far as the Internet safety strategy is concerned, and

:13:36.:13:39.

there has been a lot of talk about that, I except that, we haven't

:13:40.:13:42.

ruled anything out of that strategy that we have clearly heard the views

:13:43.:13:47.

of the House and I can say that we will consider the points raised

:13:48.:13:50.

carefully in the development of the strategy and we welcome

:13:51.:13:55.

contributions from noble Lords and other interested parties. I repeat,

:13:56.:14:01.

my department has absolutely taken on board the views of this House, in

:14:02.:14:07.

addition to many other state courts in relation to social media

:14:08.:14:13.

companies, and we will see what comes of it. The fact is, after this

:14:14.:14:18.

Amendment, if it is accepted, the code must be produced and it will be

:14:19.:14:25.

and I'm convinced it will have a beneficial effect. The question is

:14:26.:14:32.

Motion C be agreed to. As many of that opinion, the same content. On

:14:33.:14:38.

the contrary, say not content. The contents have it.

:14:39.:14:48.

I beg to move motion D, that this House do not insist on it amendments

:14:49.:14:56.

237, 238 and 239, to which the comments have disagreed for their

:14:57.:15:02.

recent 239A. My Lords, we return once again to the issue of BBC

:15:03.:15:08.

funding, having debated this at length during the committee and

:15:09.:15:11.

report. Honourable members and the other place have disagreed with the

:15:12.:15:15.

amendments that were inserted into this bill at report stage, which

:15:16.:15:21.

sought to establish a BBC license fee commission. The Government

:15:22.:15:23.

remains clear that it must have a free hand in determining the BBC's

:15:24.:15:30.

overall funding deals on the level of the license be, following

:15:31.:15:34.

negotiation with the BBC itself. Noble Lords will appreciate the

:15:35.:15:36.

decisions on the level of the license be our a matter for the

:15:37.:15:40.

elected Government. Similarly, we are not convinced that consulting

:15:41.:15:46.

the public on the level of BBC funding is the right approach to

:15:47.:15:48.

determining its funding settlements. The BBC's funding needs are a

:15:49.:15:55.

complicated and technical issue, not one that lends itself easily to

:15:56.:15:59.

public consultation. Although the Government has persuaded the

:16:00.:16:03.

honourable members of the other place, the Government has listened

:16:04.:16:07.

to concerns from noble Lords about the process about setting the BBC's

:16:08.:16:11.

funding settlement, and about making sure the BBC has an appropriate

:16:12.:16:16.

level of funding. The new charter endorses the BBC's mission and

:16:17.:16:20.

reinforces the role and independence of the BBC in a much changed and

:16:21.:16:23.

much changing beauty landscape. The specific provisions that the BBC

:16:24.:16:31.

Charter has for setting the next settlement, it should also give the

:16:32.:16:34.

noble Lords that have some concerns him comfort. We know exactly when

:16:35.:16:37.

the next funding period will commence. The Government will allow

:16:38.:16:43.

the BBC to make its case and it will consider taking independent advice

:16:44.:16:46.

before reaching the final decision. I hope the noble Lords who supported

:16:47.:16:51.

the noble lord Lord asked at earlier stages will recognise that their

:16:52.:16:54.

efforts and their arguments on this matter have not been wasted. The

:16:55.:17:01.

Government is under no illusions that the next funding settlement

:17:02.:17:03.

should be one that is carefully considered. There will be no

:17:04.:17:07.

question of the so-called midnight raids with a five-year settlement,

:17:08.:17:13.

which is inflation protected, has been agreed. Everyone knows when the

:17:14.:17:18.

next settlement will begin. I'm turning to motion the EE, which

:17:19.:17:22.

relates to public service rod casting prominence on the electronic

:17:23.:17:27.

programme guide, an issue that has been much debated in this House and

:17:28.:17:32.

the other place. The Government has heard the strength of feeling on

:17:33.:17:35.

this issue. The Government has concluded that he can see no

:17:36.:17:39.

compelling evidence of harm, we do recognise that this is a fast moving

:17:40.:17:46.

technological landscape which must be under review, a point I think was

:17:47.:17:51.

made clearly by the Lord Boyd at report stage. Amendment Will Place a

:17:52.:17:57.

new requirement on Ofcom to publish a report which looks at the ease of

:17:58.:18:05.

content across all television platforms, both on a linear and

:18:06.:18:09.

nonlinear basis. The report will focus consumer pressure on TV

:18:10.:18:15.

manufacturers to improve the prominence of PSP on-demand services

:18:16.:18:21.

where this has been identified as an issue. We know that platform

:18:22.:18:25.

providers and TV manufacturers respond most strongly to consumer

:18:26.:18:31.

needs and developing their products, therefore developments in EPG should

:18:32.:18:35.

be customer driven. The new duty will also impose an ongoing

:18:36.:18:40.

obligation on Ofcom to report its EPG care by the 1st of December 2020

:18:41.:18:46.

and to publish its first report on the ease of accessing and finding

:18:47.:18:53.

PSP content before then. As my right honourable friend made clear

:18:54.:18:58.

yesterday, if Ofcom's report makes it clear that there is a problem in

:18:59.:19:02.

this area, and one which can only be fixed by legislation and assuming

:19:03.:19:08.

the Government is returned in June, the Government will bring forward

:19:09.:19:11.

that legislation as soon as possible and I think that is why the Labour

:19:12.:19:15.

front bench spokesman said she was happy to support the Government

:19:16.:19:20.

Amendment. I beg to move. Side the question is that motion D be agreed

:19:21.:19:26.

to. The three amendments that are the subject of motion D K before

:19:27.:19:30.

your Lordship 's in the name of myself, Aaron is Carter and Lord

:19:31.:19:36.

Inglewood and Stevenson. They were passed by your Lordship 's with a

:19:37.:19:41.

thumping majority. But they are now to be rejected with no alternative

:19:42.:19:46.

amendments in lieu of these. My Lords, the issue here concerns the

:19:47.:19:50.

process by which the BBC license fee is determined. There has been

:19:51.:19:55.

extensive condemnation of the current process, condemnation from

:19:56.:20:00.

the right honourable John Whittingdale wintering the CMS

:20:01.:20:04.

Select Committee in the other place from the chair of the BBC trust,

:20:05.:20:09.

along with a range of organisations including the voice of the listener

:20:10.:20:13.

and viewer, and you Jay, and your own Select Committee on

:20:14.:20:17.

communications which I have the honour of chairing, at least until

:20:18.:20:20.

the dissolution of Parliament. What everyone agrees is that the current

:20:21.:20:24.

process has met the secretary of state deciding on this vital matter

:20:25.:20:29.

in a most unsatisfactory way behind locked doors in secret on a basis

:20:30.:20:36.

that has, on the last two occasions, involved as well as freezing the

:20:37.:20:43.

fever many years, the allocation of the feed to many other purposes,

:20:44.:20:49.

midnight raids, broadband roll-out to free licenses to the over 75. --

:20:50.:20:54.

fee. The amendments which turn out to be rejected would not tie the

:20:55.:20:58.

hands of the secretary of state, who would still make the determination,

:20:59.:21:05.

but the revised process would involve public and parliamentary

:21:06.:21:09.

consultation and expert advice from a specialist BBC license fee

:21:10.:21:16.

commission. On the decision over the license fee hangs the future of the

:21:17.:21:21.

BBC. It does seem vital to ensure that that decision is based on an

:21:22.:21:25.

understanding of both what the public wants and on hard evidence of

:21:26.:21:31.

what expenditure the BBC needs to make, to fulfil its public or

:21:32.:21:37.

Chris's. But I conclude this expression of disappointment with

:21:38.:21:44.

the rather limited things to the noble Lords the Minister for a

:21:45.:21:47.

technology that this is a technical and complicated matter, which is one

:21:48.:21:52.

on which Government will consider taking advice. I think they would be

:21:53.:21:57.

very well advised to take advice on this matter am a but we have five

:21:58.:22:03.

years until the license fee is reset and during that time I think it

:22:04.:22:06.

might be worth your Lordship's returning to this matter.

:22:07.:22:12.

I think it was about one year ago when I introduced a Private members

:22:13.:22:21.

Bill as too low in the ballot to have any chance of being debated and

:22:22.:22:28.

passed. And when that became evident I decided instead to use this bill

:22:29.:22:38.

as a vehicle to protect the financing of the BBC. And as the

:22:39.:22:45.

Minister will I'm afraid recalled painfully throughout most of the

:22:46.:22:52.

last year we have been debating this is to do with the independence and

:22:53.:23:04.

funding of the BBC. The first subject was whether it was proper to

:23:05.:23:08.

have legislation and a charter. The government originally took the

:23:09.:23:11.

position that they were inconsistent. I am grateful for the

:23:12.:23:15.

fact that eventually, having listened to the noble Lords with the

:23:16.:23:19.

authority of Lord Inglewood, Lord Fowler while he was a free man and

:23:20.:23:28.

Lord best about how a charter is not anything more than what the Minister

:23:29.:23:34.

's desire, it is not like legislation, and eventually the

:23:35.:23:37.

government came to the conclusion I believe that there was nothing

:23:38.:23:41.

incompatible between having a charter and having statutory

:23:42.:23:46.

underpinning. So the next question was, why do you need any statutory

:23:47.:23:51.

underpinning. And the answer is, because if you read the Charter,

:23:52.:23:55.

including the current charter, there is no obligation in it upon the

:23:56.:24:03.

government to provide sufficient funding or for that matter even to

:24:04.:24:09.

respect the independence of the BBC. I made it clear before this bill

:24:10.:24:14.

left this has for the other place that I was not wedded to any

:24:15.:24:20.

particular solution to the problem, of ensuring that the government

:24:21.:24:28.

would be providing sufficient funding and would respect the

:24:29.:24:38.

independence of the BBC and would do everything in its power to secure

:24:39.:24:43.

that. And one of the ways as this has as syndicated, expressed our

:24:44.:24:48.

view that by adopting his more moderate approach than mine, since

:24:49.:24:53.

his approach, or his commission would not bind the government to

:24:54.:24:58.

anything in particular other than considering the outcome of the

:24:59.:25:02.

review commissions, whereas my approach would create an obligation

:25:03.:25:06.

upon the government as regards funding and a prohibition against

:25:07.:25:11.

the kind of top slicing the transferred to the BBC of matters

:25:12.:25:18.

that were the obligation of the Department for Work and Pensions to

:25:19.:25:21.

ensure that that never happened again. Before we finally approve

:25:22.:25:34.

this motion, one point is that the government does not accept any

:25:35.:25:39.

obligations as I understand it about the sufficiency of funding or any

:25:40.:25:44.

obligation upon it as to respecting the independence of the BBC. So I

:25:45.:25:50.

asked the Minister, I asked him last time and he wasn't able to answer, I

:25:51.:25:54.

asked him this time can he please assure the House that the government

:25:55.:26:02.

does accept that there is an obligation to provide sufficient

:26:03.:26:05.

funds to the BBC, whether through the licence fee or otherwise, to

:26:06.:26:13.

ensure that the BBC can fulfil the public purposes as an independent

:26:14.:26:19.

public service broadcaster that are enunciated in the charter. And does

:26:20.:26:29.

not accept also that there is an obligation to ensure that the

:26:30.:26:32.

independence of the BBC is guaranteed and that there will be no

:26:33.:26:38.

further raid upon it to top slicing, if the government can give those

:26:39.:26:42.

assurances today than I will not feel that I have wasted most of the

:26:43.:26:46.

best part of the last year in these debates. If he cannot do so, and I

:26:47.:26:53.

very much hope that he will be able to do so, if he cannot do so I'm

:26:54.:26:57.

afraid I shall have to bring in another Private members Bill and a

:26:58.:27:05.

ballot. I just want to say that I regret that the government did not

:27:06.:27:09.

accept the laws Amendment two 42. The Minister of State in the other

:27:10.:27:13.

place in a speech yesterday said that an Internet based on demand

:27:14.:27:20.

viewing is different. I don't think that's right. The two technologies

:27:21.:27:26.

are emerging as television sets become multipurpose computers we are

:27:27.:27:30.

seeing convergence between TV and Internet increasing at a rapid pace.

:27:31.:27:35.

It is crucial that the regime should keep pace with changing viewing

:27:36.:27:38.

habits. However the response from the other place does give me some

:27:39.:27:42.

heart. At least there will be an Ofcom review of the PSP Providence

:27:43.:27:47.

guidelines, I would like to urge the noble Lord the Minister to ensure

:27:48.:27:52.

that Ofcom starts the review as soon as possible, and not allow them to

:27:53.:27:59.

put it off until late 2020. Every month we are seeing the PSP on

:28:00.:28:02.

demand and digital services are becoming more important for

:28:03.:28:06.

broadcasters. I'm sure your Lordships would like to see viewers

:28:07.:28:09.

having easy access to programmes which in the case of the BBC funded

:28:10.:28:14.

by public money and in the case of Channel 4 are publicly owned. My

:28:15.:28:22.

lord, I very much hope that the Lord Minister will take the threat from

:28:23.:28:26.

my noble friend seriously and will rise to the challenges that is put

:28:27.:28:31.

to the Minister on the question of funding and independence and

:28:32.:28:34.

carrying out the activities of the BBC. I do in particular want to

:28:35.:28:40.

agree with the noble Best with in his disappointment with the decision

:28:41.:28:54.

today. My noble friend Baroness Bonham Carter added her name

:28:55.:28:58.

this. It was the product of the committee occasions select

:28:59.:29:05.

committee,... Independent oversight and the setting of a licensee and of

:29:06.:29:13.

course my Lords the Minister pushed back a report, committee and a

:29:14.:29:18.

reading by talking about the licensee being attacked but of

:29:19.:29:22.

course my Lords it's a rather exceptional tax, it is a hub tax,

:29:23.:29:26.

paid by the public to fund the BBC. So my Lords it's entirely correct

:29:27.:29:33.

that there should be a different mechanism for the setting of that

:29:34.:29:38.

licensee. My Lords, it arises because of the midnight raids by the

:29:39.:29:43.

Treasury, the hijacking by the treachery of the licence fee

:29:44.:29:45.

progress that has taken place at least twice recently my Lord. And,

:29:46.:29:52.

my Lords, the minister, and this is one of the worrying phrases users,

:29:53.:29:58.

the government wants a free hand following negotiations with the BBC,

:29:59.:30:03.

my Lords, that is exactly what the original amendment was designed to

:30:04.:30:11.

prevent. My Lords, what I think is the nub of the concern is that

:30:12.:30:15.

assurances, and the Minister did give assurances, he gave some new

:30:16.:30:20.

language to lead my Lords, assurances given by government, we

:30:21.:30:23.

have seen what assurances are worth in terms of snap elections, my Lord!

:30:24.:30:28.

Assurances can be given by government one minute which can be

:30:29.:30:33.

broken the next, my lords. And my Lords, however carefully we

:30:34.:30:37.

scrutinise the noble Lord's wording today, if his government is in a

:30:38.:30:42.

position in the future to negotiate the licence fee my Lords, we have no

:30:43.:30:50.

absolute assurance that those words will be followed. So my Lords I join

:30:51.:30:56.

with deep disappointment with I am sure almost all benches around the

:30:57.:31:00.

house in sharing that disappointment. I do apologise. I

:31:01.:31:07.

haven't dealt with the second amendment, Amendment E. In many ways

:31:08.:31:15.

it's even more disappointing. I think that it is a perfectly valid

:31:16.:31:24.

thing that Viscount Colwill expressed some reports of the Ofcom

:31:25.:31:27.

review but given that the government can say it is a political decision

:31:28.:31:31.

whether or not they have the BBC licence fee commission, my Lords,

:31:32.:31:39.

this is much more miles, and at least two occasions we've heard DC

:31:40.:31:46.

MS secretaries Jeremy Hunt and Maria Miller both saying that the position

:31:47.:31:52.

of the public service broadcasters was very important way of

:31:53.:32:03.

safeguarding that position. We already know the Minister has

:32:04.:32:11.

undertaken a review by Ofcom but my Lords Ofcom already know that there

:32:12.:32:16.

is a problem. They recommended in their 2015 PSB review that

:32:17.:32:23.

policymakers should form the rules... So that does not seem to be

:32:24.:32:34.

a particularly constructive way forward, despite appearances. So, my

:32:35.:32:37.

Lords, there are a number of questions that arise from the

:32:38.:32:43.

government amendment E. Can the Minister confirm that statutory

:32:44.:32:48.

change will be necessary to bring on demand PSP content and the

:32:49.:32:52.

collective EPG is where they are found into the scope of Ofcom's EPG

:32:53.:33:01.

code, my Lords? The Minister has claimed in conversation that it

:33:02.:33:05.

wasn't possible to have a Henry VIII power that would implement Ofcom's

:33:06.:33:09.

recommendations for OnDemand, my lords. So I am assuming that there

:33:10.:33:15.

is no current statutory power and we would be talking about primary

:33:16.:33:19.

legislation in that respect but it would be helpful to have that

:33:20.:33:23.

confirmation, my lords. Is the Minister going to give an assurance

:33:24.:33:33.

that the government will act? We would not have brought forward the

:33:34.:33:38.

amendment unless we thought this was a real and present is see that

:33:39.:33:43.

needed to be tackled. This wasn't a frivolous amendment, but the

:33:44.:33:45.

government seems to have a completely different view. The

:33:46.:33:56.

earnest attention is important. The amendment sets a first December 2020

:33:57.:34:00.

statutory deadline for the review and the revision of the EPG code

:34:01.:34:03.

that does the Minister not agree that it would be desirable to

:34:04.:34:09.

commence work earlier, given the need for prior statutory changes,

:34:10.:34:13.

probably? In order to bring on demand contact into scope? And

:34:14.:34:21.

finally my Lords, it does appear that there is the statutory power to

:34:22.:34:28.

bring the prominence of PSP children's channels into EPG's. And

:34:29.:34:32.

my Lords, does the Minister agree with that and would he agree that if

:34:33.:34:41.

Ofcom so recommends, it could be brought in earlier than the OnDemand

:34:42.:34:47.

provision? I very much up that the Minister can answer those questions,

:34:48.:34:53.

my lords. My Lord, these elements taken together workshops of the

:34:54.:34:57.

government. I think with predictable certainty they've fallen into both.

:34:58.:35:00.

-- they were traps for the government. The one discussed on the

:35:01.:35:09.

question of the need for Ofcom to have powers to make sure that there

:35:10.:35:15.

was a proper rule about provenance applying not only to the linear but

:35:16.:35:19.

also the off-line world, the world via player and others, it was really

:35:20.:35:22.

a test about whether or not the government believed in public sector

:35:23.:35:25.

broadcasting. And if it did it needed to make proposals for a

:35:26.:35:34.

channel funded by the public to have access on a fair and equal basis to

:35:35.:35:39.

other commercial channels. By bringing forward a moment which was

:35:40.:35:43.

simply one for report without the necessary requirement that there

:35:44.:35:48.

should be legislation, in three areas that I think we are agreed

:35:49.:35:51.

should be happened and I think they've failed this test. But we

:35:52.:35:55.

welcome they have got to, a further review is important I hope it will

:35:56.:35:59.

bring out the complexity of the issue, the changing technology and

:36:00.:36:02.

the difficulties of assessing this in a way which will make it easier

:36:03.:36:09.

for the to honour its commitment and if the report does make it clear

:36:10.:36:13.

that there is a problem in this area which can only be fixed by

:36:14.:36:17.

legislation, that the government will bring forward that legislation

:36:18.:36:23.

as soon as possible and may I also, if elected, give the commitment from

:36:24.:36:26.

this side of the house that we will do the same.

:36:27.:36:32.

On the BBC license fee, the issue again is of trust. There is a real

:36:33.:36:39.

danger that those institutions that seek protection in Royal charters

:36:40.:36:45.

from what might be a Government of the day, will not be able to rely on

:36:46.:36:51.

that as we go forward. I think the smoke and mirrors effect that was

:36:52.:36:54.

always there with Royal charters is now gone. Therefore there is a real

:36:55.:36:59.

problem about BBC. The Government will only end up convincing if he

:37:00.:37:05.

can show by its actions that it does believe in the independence of the

:37:06.:37:09.

organisations for which Royal charter protection are so important.

:37:10.:37:14.

We are visiting attacks in higher education, where it is no longer

:37:15.:37:18.

possible for those who have guardianship of the funds that we

:37:19.:37:21.

put into research to have Royal charters, they are being removed.

:37:22.:37:24.

There was a threat to universities that will no longer be able to

:37:25.:37:30.

continue to have or change their existing Royal charters, and

:37:31.:37:33.

therefore we've got to be careful on where we are going on this. I think

:37:34.:37:37.

the Government has not been very successful in convincing and we will

:37:38.:37:41.

do both the charter and fee for the BBC. I had some hope during

:37:42.:37:47.

discussions on the charter this time around, with the care and

:37:48.:37:50.

consideration of the Government did give to the question of how the

:37:51.:37:55.

renewal of the BBC Charter and the settlement of the license fee would

:37:56.:37:57.

be protected from the electoral cycle, that we would get somewhere

:37:58.:38:01.

with this and we would continue to trust them. But we've just change

:38:02.:38:07.

the electoral cycle. We have an election in 2017, which means the

:38:08.:38:12.

next election will be in 2022, the year in which the BBC license fee is

:38:13.:38:15.

settled. The election after that will be in 2027, the year of the

:38:16.:38:21.

charter renewal will take place. Do you, my Lords, really believe that

:38:22.:38:24.

we have the best system of protection in place? If we do not

:38:25.:38:27.

seek more information and transparency about a Government that

:38:28.:38:31.

deals with such an important institution as the BBC. I think the

:38:32.:38:37.

noble lord Leicester is right to think again about how we might want

:38:38.:38:41.

to protect in statute the organisations for which we have

:38:42.:38:45.

care, and I'm very sad the very step on that which might've protected us

:38:46.:38:49.

against the move that way in terms of the BBC license fee commission,

:38:50.:38:53.

which after all is not an new idea, it did operate in 2005 /6, it was so

:38:54.:39:00.

successful it annoyed the Government of the day that it recommended to

:39:01.:39:04.

hide the license fee, it recommended Ali offered advice on the detailed

:39:05.:39:08.

examination on the case for what the BBC needed to the fillets charter

:39:09.:39:13.

obligations. That is what we were tied to do without an Amendment and

:39:14.:39:17.

I supported the one that came out of the communication committee. It was

:39:18.:39:19.

right at the time it was proposed, it was supported here at the time

:39:20.:39:24.

that may be supported in the absence of the trump card, which is to

:39:25.:39:28.

change the electoral cycle. If we don't get a commitment from the

:39:29.:39:31.

Government today that there is going to need to be another look at this

:39:32.:39:35.

whole question of the timing, I do think we are in a very bad place. My

:39:36.:39:44.

Lords, I am grateful for all his contributions in May I start with

:39:45.:39:49.

the noble lord Best, I am grateful for the limited thanks he gave me

:39:50.:39:53.

and I give him unqualified things in return, because we have talked about

:39:54.:39:57.

this for a long time both in and out of the chamber. The one thing I can

:39:58.:40:01.

say about the Government's view on the BBC license fee is that we have

:40:02.:40:07.

been entirely consistent. I think I can say to Lord Leicester that, in

:40:08.:40:11.

conversations over a period of time both in and out of the chamber, I

:40:12.:40:22.

have never given him any reason to expect that we should change our

:40:23.:40:28.

view on this and he said he was apathetically optimistic, and I hope

:40:29.:40:31.

he remains optimistic and other things, but we have been entirely

:40:32.:40:35.

consistent on this matter. Because, as they explained at length, we do

:40:36.:40:42.

not believe that it is right for a tax to be consulted on. I do

:40:43.:40:49.

understand that the issues, and I do understand the strength of feeling

:40:50.:40:54.

in this House, but that is why we have made some changes and during

:40:55.:41:02.

the charter renewal process, we have outlined, as I said earlier, that we

:41:03.:41:08.

protected the funding for five years, we won't have any so-called

:41:09.:41:13.

midnight raids. It has been protected from inflation, which it

:41:14.:41:17.

wasn't before. We agree that we will take in information and take expert

:41:18.:41:22.

advice before this process goes ahead in five years' time. Of

:41:23.:41:30.

course, I do take the noble lord Leicester's threat of a Private

:41:31.:41:37.

member's bill extremely seriously and I must assume there is a

:41:38.:41:41.

possibility it will be forthcoming, and I look forward to debating with

:41:42.:41:48.

him on that will stop at the moment, I do not believe that there are

:41:49.:41:53.

situations that are likely to change, but of course in 11 years'

:41:54.:41:58.

time, it might. I don't think I'll be involved with it at that time. He

:41:59.:42:04.

asked a number of questions about the Government guaranteeing the

:42:05.:42:09.

independence of the BBC. Will we adequately funded? The new charter,

:42:10.:42:16.

it indoors is the role of independence and increases the

:42:17.:42:19.

independence of the BBC in a number of ways. Of course, this Government

:42:20.:42:26.

will live by the provisions of the Royal charter as far as independence

:42:27.:42:31.

of the BBC is concerned. On funding, we agreed that we will give it a

:42:32.:42:38.

five-year period, and of course we will ensure that it is properly

:42:39.:42:43.

funded for the future, but it will be a negotiation that takes place at

:42:44.:42:51.

that time. As far as the noble lord's point about timing, Ofcom

:42:52.:42:56.

will get going when they feel it is necessary. But what we have done by

:42:57.:43:00.

our Amendment is put in and day on that so they will have to reduce the

:43:01.:43:04.

report by about 2.5 years' time. That is a great advantage. I am

:43:05.:43:15.

sorry... Just now, to have given an assurance to the House that the

:43:16.:43:20.

Government does regard itself as under a duty to respect the

:43:21.:43:24.

independence of the BBC and to provide sufficient funding to pursue

:43:25.:43:30.

its purposes as an independent public service broadcaster, because

:43:31.:43:33.

if the answer to those questions is yes, I am extremely grateful and if

:43:34.:43:37.

the answer is no, that I would say to the Minister, power is delightful

:43:38.:43:43.

and absolute power is absolutely delightful, but that should not be

:43:44.:43:50.

his motto. What I said was, we of coarse abide by what we put into the

:43:51.:43:57.

Royal charter and it mentions the independence of the BBC and it

:43:58.:44:01.

enhanced the independence of the BBC from what came before. As far as

:44:02.:44:05.

funding is concerned, we have a five-year deal and the funding will

:44:06.:44:10.

be in negotiation as it goes on, but it is clearly not the Government's

:44:11.:44:16.

desire to prevent the BBC carrying out its purposes. But there will be

:44:17.:44:20.

an negotiation, this is a tax to provide for the BBC and each

:44:21.:44:25.

five-year period will be taken on a separate basis.

:44:26.:44:34.

So I'm just moving it on to the EPG now. I'm sorry, I should mention

:44:35.:44:40.

also that the noble lord Stevenson mentioned the problem with win the

:44:41.:44:48.

next funding period is coming around in connection with the election

:44:49.:44:54.

cycle and of course it was carefully, the 11 year cycle was

:44:55.:44:59.

carefully chosen to remove it from the electoral cycle I think at the

:45:00.:45:03.

suggestion of this House, amongst others. It is of course unfortunate

:45:04.:45:09.

that it is... Has been changed by the absence of the fixed term, but

:45:10.:45:15.

of course the fixed term parliaments act is not an absolute guarantee for

:45:16.:45:19.

a five-year parliament and it is true that...

:45:20.:45:27.

The provision was written into the act itself to make sure it was the

:45:28.:45:31.

case. Of course, the five-year settlement will be reached, the new

:45:32.:45:36.

settlement will be reached before the next election, assuming it goes

:45:37.:45:40.

to the full five years. The funding settlement is an 18-24 month

:45:41.:45:47.

negotiation, so that will take place before the election takes place, if

:45:48.:45:51.

it goes to the full five-year term. Fundamentally, though, a long

:45:52.:45:55.

charter allows the BBC to operate with greater certainty and with the

:45:56.:45:58.

freedom and confidence to deliver its object is. And it is also worth

:45:59.:46:08.

remembering that, it in the course, where the charter process has

:46:09.:46:12.

collided with the electoral cycle, it has always managed to conclude

:46:13.:46:17.

successfully that the continue will continue -- Micah BBC will continue

:46:18.:46:24.

to thrive. Moving onto the EPG, there was a suggestion that we

:46:25.:46:27.

should take a broad Henry VIII power, I think both the noble Lords

:46:28.:46:33.

Steven Finn mentioned this, the problem with that, there is an

:46:34.:46:39.

unusual situation where both some French benches -- front benches are

:46:40.:46:46.

almost amending the Government to take a broad Henry VIII power and

:46:47.:46:50.

normally I would say I agree with that. But in this case, this would

:46:51.:46:57.

really have a broad and wide ranging... He would have to be very

:46:58.:47:01.

broad and wide reaching, because amendments could be necessary to the

:47:02.:47:06.

communication act. The broadcasting act in 1990, the broadcasting act

:47:07.:47:12.

1996. Depending on what Ofcom recommended, a wider Amendment might

:47:13.:47:15.

be needed beyond traditional legislation beyond delete back to

:47:16.:47:20.

other areas, which we would not necessarily want to capture, such as

:47:21.:47:24.

online services. We think that this is the best way forward. The noble

:47:25.:47:31.

lord Stevenson also asked about our belief in public sector broadcasting

:47:32.:47:36.

and we have accepted the arguments of your Lordship's house to maintain

:47:37.:47:42.

on our free to air channels, children's TV from the noble

:47:43.:47:48.

Baroness Lady Benjamin, so they are evidence of our support for PSP 's.

:47:49.:47:58.

-- PSB 's. I know noble Lords were disappointed about the BBC license

:47:59.:48:03.

be will stop as I said, we were entirely consistent on this and I

:48:04.:48:08.

think the commitment that we have made on EPG and the Minister in the

:48:09.:48:16.

other place made should be some comfort to those who were

:48:17.:48:22.

disappointed with our answers on this and, as a result, I hope they

:48:23.:48:28.

will be able to accept them and I beg to move. The question is that

:48:29.:48:34.

motion deed be agreed to. As many of that opinion essay, content. To the

:48:35.:48:40.

contrary, not content. The contents have it. The question is that Motion

:48:41.:48:46.

B he agreed to. As many of that opinion, say content. To the

:48:47.:48:52.

contrary, not content. The contents have it. I beg to move motion as,

:48:53.:48:56.

this House to agree with the comments in there and manage 2468.

:48:57.:49:02.

We recommend the good intentions behind the original amendments and

:49:03.:49:08.

we have accepted it, but we need to make some technical amendments to it

:49:09.:49:12.

and that is the purpose of this Amendment. The Government's

:49:13.:49:18.

Amendment clarifies that it should refer to the unique ticket put up

:49:19.:49:22.

for resale and enable the buyer to identify the location of the ticket

:49:23.:49:27.

within the venue. Our Amendment also removes the provision requiring

:49:28.:49:32.

ticket sellers to provide, quote, at any specific condition attached to

:49:33.:49:38.

the resale of the ticket. Many global Lords have asked me about

:49:39.:49:41.

this, I want to put on record why. The Government is firmly of the view

:49:42.:49:45.

that when a secondary ticket provider with the ticket on sale,

:49:46.:49:49.

they must give the buyer clearer information about the conditions

:49:50.:49:52.

attached to the ticket regarding resale. This is in provision 93 B of

:49:53.:49:58.

the consumer rights act 2015. Duplication can only add to

:49:59.:50:03.

confusion. It can only add confusion, where as we want

:50:04.:50:08.

secondary ticket sellers absolutely clear on this point. This Amendment

:50:09.:50:13.

is in addition to DMM meant of buying tickets to it and maximum

:50:14.:50:17.

amount by a bot illegal. I begin by declaring an interest as

:50:18.:50:30.

co-chair of the all-party Parliamentary group on ticket abuse

:50:31.:50:35.

and pay tribute to my co-chair for the standing work she has done on

:50:36.:50:41.

the subject. In brief, I welcome the Government's amendment and I also

:50:42.:50:48.

welcome their response by the Government to the Waterson review

:50:49.:50:52.

accepting the recommendations in full. The power of God but now to

:50:53.:50:58.

introduce a criminal offence to stop the use of bots to purchase tickets,

:50:59.:51:02.

the provision of funding for enforcement action and I hope that a

:51:03.:51:08.

future government will work to strengthen enforcement and I also

:51:09.:51:16.

look forward to the outcome of the Competition and Markets Authority in

:51:17.:51:20.

their enforcement investigation into suspected breaches of consumer

:51:21.:51:24.

protection law. That is very important because the evidence in

:51:25.:51:28.

the secondary market consistently flouting the law on a daily basis is

:51:29.:51:34.

clear for all to see on many online sites. I welcome the comments made

:51:35.:51:42.

by the Minister saying a ticket should have a unique reference

:51:43.:51:46.

number that people can see when they purchase it. That would make it easy

:51:47.:51:52.

to identify the reseller and it is an important step forward but I

:51:53.:51:57.

would like to ask for one further assurance from my noble friend the

:51:58.:52:02.

Minister. Just now he said the original amendment that I had put

:52:03.:52:09.

forward was not necessary in whole because it included the addition of

:52:10.:52:17.

a requirement to list any terms and conditions and the Government has

:52:18.:52:21.

deleted that contending this is already covered under section 90 of

:52:22.:52:26.

the consumer rights Bill. This is an important issue just to have clarity

:52:27.:52:36.

on. The Government have argued that section 90 which requires online

:52:37.:52:41.

secondary ticket websites to provide information about any restriction

:52:42.:52:46.

which limits use of the ticket to persons of a particular description

:52:47.:52:51.

effectively means that my amendment was unnecessary and duplicative. The

:52:52.:52:55.

understanding of many has spent that section 90 was designed to ensure

:52:56.:53:01.

transparency about any ticket which was for a child or disabled person

:53:02.:53:06.

or had a restricted view and other similar restrictions and was not

:53:07.:53:09.

about the resell terms and conditions which was not subject to

:53:10.:53:20.

did date -- debate. Maybe it would assist if I gave an example to

:53:21.:53:22.

demonstrate this point. Metallica have an upcoming UK tour and is an

:53:23.:53:32.

example why the scope of a consumer rights act targeting secretary

:53:33.:53:41.

websites is necessary. In the instance of Metallica, well-known to

:53:42.:53:45.

many members of the House, although our strict conditions are in place

:53:46.:53:51.

to mitigate ticket tempting with names being printed on tickets to

:53:52.:53:55.

prevent resale, the photo ID of the book must be presented and

:53:56.:54:02.

accompanying guests which must enter at the same time. Tickets are

:54:03.:54:07.

limited at four per credit card and this is clear when you buy a ticket.

:54:08.:54:16.

Do I understand without doubt that my noble friend the Minister is

:54:17.:54:20.

saying that requirement, those terms and conditions making that

:54:21.:54:24.

information is mandatory on the secondary market sites and is fully

:54:25.:54:29.

covered by the existing law? I think that was what he was saying but it

:54:30.:54:34.

would be useful if he could confirm that. Because it would be of

:54:35.:54:39.

assistance to the CMA and to trading standards and not least because it

:54:40.:54:43.

would support and protect the interests of fans of Metallica and

:54:44.:54:47.

indeed the show Hamilton which faces the same challenges. With that

:54:48.:54:53.

requirement for final assurance from my noble friend, could I conclude by

:54:54.:54:59.

thanking noble Lords for the support on this and for the hard work he has

:55:00.:55:02.

undertaken to ensure we have made progress. My lords, can I join with

:55:03.:55:15.

the noble Lloyd Moynihan and I wanted to make a brief intervention

:55:16.:55:24.

because I wanted to congratulate him and Sharon Hodgson in their

:55:25.:55:28.

persistence in achieving what we have achieved so far. I think it is

:55:29.:55:36.

considerable, a great deal of progress has been made in

:55:37.:55:39.

restricting the activities of the secondary ticket sites and we all

:55:40.:55:46.

look forward to the Competition and Markets Authority report which may

:55:47.:55:51.

well suggest further changes to legislation and certainly will give

:55:52.:55:55.

us a good idea as to whether or not the provisions of the consumer

:55:56.:55:59.

rights act are being properly enforced and I think that will be

:56:00.:56:05.

extremely illuminating. I hope the Minister will be able to answer what

:56:06.:56:11.

they noble lord has raised in terms of visit duplication or have we

:56:12.:56:18.

thrown something out through the Government's Commons amendment. I

:56:19.:56:25.

want to end my contribution today by saying that this bill perhaps in the

:56:26.:56:33.

words of my noble friend, we have not taken up the floorboards today,

:56:34.:56:38.

but we have given the Digital economy a decent lick of paint in

:56:39.:56:44.

the process. It is not a very ambitious bill and I think many of

:56:45.:56:51.

us could argue at length as to what other aspects we should have covered

:56:52.:56:55.

in the bill, but I wanted to thank the Minister for his unfailing help

:56:56.:57:03.

for this and the Bill team and I very much welcome not only the

:57:04.:57:08.

movement today which is perceptible, which is not always the case on wash

:57:09.:57:15.

up, but also some of the movement that was made in the course of the

:57:16.:57:19.

Bill and Lord Moynihan talked about the outlawing of mass online

:57:20.:57:30.

purchases but new Ofcom powers in respect of children's programmes,

:57:31.:57:38.

particularly welcome, so there has been movement in this House as a

:57:39.:57:45.

result of amendments in this House and discussions we have held so I am

:57:46.:57:52.

grateful and I look forward to new digital economy bill before too

:57:53.:58:00.

long. This marks another stage in the campaign led by the noble Lord

:58:01.:58:07.

Monaghan but also was led by the Baroness who played a huge part in

:58:08.:58:17.

this. I am sure she is a part of this wherever she is. The noble Lord

:58:18.:58:23.

has mentioned bots and we should not ignore the fact that that will make

:58:24.:58:27.

a huge change to the secondary ticket market. The solution that the

:58:28.:58:33.

Bill team came up with is creative and I hope it works, but the first

:58:34.:58:38.

step has been taken and this will crack down on secondary ticketing.

:58:39.:58:48.

The question the noble Lord Moynihan raised and I hope the Minister will

:58:49.:58:52.

answer, whether or not the conditions apply because they are

:58:53.:58:56.

not drafted quite like that in the original legislation. I also ask

:58:57.:59:01.

about the particular amendment we have got. In its original

:59:02.:59:11.

formulation they inserted the words any unique ticket number. In the

:59:12.:59:16.

final version it says, any unique ticket number that helps the buyer

:59:17.:59:22.

identified the seat. Does that in some sense employ a voluntary

:59:23.:59:27.

obligation because if it does, that would be very unfortunate. Could

:59:28.:59:33.

somebody argue that they did not include the unique ticket number

:59:34.:59:35.

specified because in their beauty did not help the buyer identify a

:59:36.:59:40.

seat or standing area or its location. What is it a variation on

:59:41.:59:52.

the word must that a ticket number could help the ticket buyer identify

:59:53.:00:03.

a seat and location. I am very grateful to especially my noble

:00:04.:00:07.

friend Lord Moynihan and other noble Lords and I think we have to some

:00:08.:00:15.

extent overcome the great disappointment in the previous

:00:16.:00:20.

group. Noble Lords have been clear in this debate that they want to see

:00:21.:00:25.

tough action to deal with a serious problem in the secondary ticket

:00:26.:00:30.

market, and the Government is taking action that is why we have provided

:00:31.:00:33.

funding for national trading standards to take further

:00:34.:00:38.

enforcement action. We have facilitated the industry and the CMA

:00:39.:00:47.

has launched an enforcement investigation into suspected

:00:48.:00:52.

breaches of consumer protection law. I am sure that the noble Lord Lord

:00:53.:00:59.

Moynihan and other noble Lords will continue to keep this issue under

:01:00.:01:04.

the spotlight and will make progress in protecting consumers and

:01:05.:01:08.

supporting our national sporting, Cottle assets. There were some

:01:09.:01:16.

specific questions about that and as my noble friend, the Minister in the

:01:17.:01:27.

Other Place made clear that as far as the Gottman is concerned, the

:01:28.:01:34.

advice is that the consumer rights act, we are firmly of the view that

:01:35.:01:40.

when a secondary ticket seller offers a ticket for sale, they must

:01:41.:01:44.

give the buyer clear information about certain conditions attached to

:01:45.:01:49.

the ticket and when we said it is duplicated, our advice is it is. If

:01:50.:01:54.

I say to my noble friend Lord Moynihan that the notes under

:01:55.:02:01.

section 33 B of the consumer rights act to makes it that the buyer must

:02:02.:02:09.

give information about any restrictions that apply to the

:02:10.:02:16.

ticket. My noble Lord Stevenson asked about the wording of the other

:02:17.:02:29.

bit of... The text, any unique ticket number may help the buyer

:02:30.:02:32.

identified the seat or standing area or its location. Does that may make

:02:33.:02:39.

this voluntarily? The answer is no, it is mandatory in its technical

:02:40.:02:47.

language to link this to such action -- subsection 90. I hope that

:02:48.:02:55.

answers the questions. I wanted to reiterate what the noble Lord

:02:56.:02:59.

Clement Jones mentioned about some of the advantages, some of the games

:03:00.:03:03.

that this bill has had from your Lordships house and the opposition

:03:04.:03:09.

amendments and suggestions in the Other Place as well and I say this

:03:10.:03:18.

to acknowledge their input into it, but also to show that we have been

:03:19.:03:23.

flexible in some things at least, in many things and I think where we

:03:24.:03:29.

have made progress and we have, and these are all areas that were

:03:30.:03:33.

suggested by the opposition in various houses, extension of public

:03:34.:03:43.

lending rights to eat books, children's television accessibility

:03:44.:03:46.

of on demand services including subtitles, we have maintained the

:03:47.:03:52.

capability of having listed events which was first tabled in the

:03:53.:03:57.

Commons. We have Bill limits as we talked about earlier for mobile

:03:58.:04:01.

phones, we have a code of practice for social media, we opened the

:04:02.:04:07.

group and reach, we have Internet filters which protect children and

:04:08.:04:13.

the review of the electronic programme guide although not quite

:04:14.:04:19.

as much as some noble Lords wanted. But also, the opposition has

:04:20.:04:24.

supported things that will make a great advance in the Digital

:04:25.:04:27.

economy. The electronic communications code, a crucial piece

:04:28.:04:35.

of amendment. Age very location for online pornography where we have

:04:36.:04:40.

also listened and adjusted the regime to address the concerns of

:04:41.:04:46.

the opposition. We have extended age verification on on demand television

:04:47.:04:50.

so 18 certificate to you is kept away from children and government

:04:51.:04:54.

data sharing will enable us to deliver better services to the

:04:55.:05:02.

vulnerable and there is a repeal of section 73 of the patents act which

:05:03.:05:08.

I think was accepted. I mentioned my thanks to many noble Lords at third

:05:09.:05:16.

reading, I repeat especially to the noble Lord Stevenson, the noble Lord

:05:17.:05:20.

Clement Jones who headed the various, quite large teams in this

:05:21.:05:26.

House and I am very grateful to all of them and my Lords, I beg to move.

:05:27.:05:33.

The question is that motion have to be agreed to, as many of that

:05:34.:05:40.

opinion is the content. And not content. The content habit.

:05:41.:05:45.

Specified agreement on driving disqualification. My Lords, this

:05:46.:05:57.

statutory instrument is being made to be introduced an agreement to

:05:58.:06:00.

allow for the mutual recognition of driving disqualification is between

:06:01.:06:04.

the United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland. The noble Lords may recall

:06:05.:06:07.

that the previous arrangement on this matter under the 1998 European

:06:08.:06:11.

Convention on driving disqualification is seized to apply

:06:12.:06:15.

in the UK in the 1st of December 2014 when the UK exercise that right

:06:16.:06:20.

to opt out of the these EU police and criminal justice matters under

:06:21.:06:25.

the Treaty of Lisbon. The UK has one of the best road safety records in

:06:26.:06:30.

the world and the cooperation between administrations in Great

:06:31.:06:33.

Britain and Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland will improve it

:06:34.:06:37.

further. This measure is particularly important for the

:06:38.:06:40.

people of Northern Ireland who share a 310 mile long border with Ireland,

:06:41.:06:46.

where around 15,000 people across 300 crossing point on a daily basis

:06:47.:06:50.

travelling between the two. Last year traffic accidents caused 68

:06:51.:06:54.

people to needlessly lose their lives in Northern Ireland. If a

:06:55.:07:00.

British or other Irish driver receives an instant disqualification

:07:01.:07:03.

from driving while travelling in the Republic of Ireland, see for example

:07:04.:07:07.

for drink-driving or causing a series injury to another road user

:07:08.:07:11.

this disqualification can follow the individual back home. The same is

:07:12.:07:15.

true for Irish drivers disqualified here in Britain or in Northern

:07:16.:07:20.

Ireland. My Lords the treaty that officials have negotiated with the

:07:21.:07:25.

Irish is almost identical to the now-defunct European Convention on

:07:26.:07:28.

driving disqualification is but with one important difference, the

:07:29.:07:33.

convention gave rise to a liberal in its wording whereby some drivers

:07:34.:07:36.

could escape the ban following them home by four -- falsely claiming

:07:37.:07:41.

residents in the country where the offence occurred. We have amended

:07:42.:07:45.

the wording accordingly to close this loophole, ensuring that those

:07:46.:07:48.

unscrupulous individuals trying to escape punishment can no longer do

:07:49.:07:54.

so. This process is straightforward, when a British or Northern Irish

:07:55.:07:59.

court rules that a driver is to be disqualified and the drivers

:08:00.:08:04.

normally resident in Ireland and can hold any particular driving licence,

:08:05.:08:08.

the driver will be able to appeal the decision. If the appeal is heard

:08:09.:08:14.

and rejected or not filed the DVLA will write to the road safety

:08:15.:08:18.

authority in Ireland and inform them that a driver resident in Ireland

:08:19.:08:22.

has been disqualified. It is then that the cases referred to the Irish

:08:23.:08:26.

courts and the judges there can elect to uphold the ban. The same is

:08:27.:08:29.

true of the British and rather manage drivers disqualified in

:08:30.:08:34.

Ireland. These measures are not to be considered as double punishment,

:08:35.:08:40.

drivers do have the right of appeal against the initial ban against the

:08:41.:08:43.

ban applying in the country of normal residence but a driver who

:08:44.:08:49.

commits an offence serious and often edit instant disqualification needs

:08:50.:08:52.

to be taken off the road in the UK and Ireland for the appropriate

:08:53.:08:57.

duration. If the Irish court imposes additional punishments are being

:08:58.:09:01.

forced to reset a driving test or taking an extended driving test we

:09:02.:09:05.

in Great Britain and Northern Ireland will similarly impose

:09:06.:09:07.

additional punishments. I should like to point out for the noble lord

:09:08.:09:12.

that any driving this cold occasions arising from the trotting up a

:09:13.:09:15.

penalty point is not covered in the series of measures still I would

:09:16.:09:20.

share with noble Lords that Ireland and indeed Northern Ireland are

:09:21.:09:25.

continuing to engage on a bilateral basis and continuing the discussion

:09:26.:09:28.

is that the North-South Council for mutual recognition of penalty

:09:29.:09:34.

points. The agreement on mutual recognition of the -- cold occasions

:09:35.:09:37.

in the UK and Ireland will not be affected by the United Kingdom

:09:38.:09:41.

decision to leave the EU, indeed as the Prime Minister herself stated on

:09:42.:09:43.

the 30th of January following a meeting with the chief negotiator

:09:44.:09:51.

for the people of Ireland and Northern Ireland the ability to move

:09:52.:09:53.

freely across the border is an essential part of daily life which

:09:54.:09:57.

is why the tioseach and Primus has been clear that there will be no

:09:58.:10:03.

return to the borders of the past. Economic links with Ireland will be

:10:04.:10:07.

an important priority for the UK in the talks ahead and I look forward

:10:08.:10:13.

to the brief debate this afternoon. Goal the question is that this

:10:14.:10:21.

motion be agreed to. I noticed the noble Lord as referred to the brief

:10:22.:10:25.

this afternoon, I take it that this is a statement of hope on his part,

:10:26.:10:29.

judging by the numbers in the chamber brasserie both Mr Stitt and

:10:30.:10:34.

the debate on driving disqualification regulations 2017 is

:10:35.:10:43.

packing in the noble Lords. I thank the noble Lord for his explanation

:10:44.:10:46.

of the purpose of the regulations which we support in the background

:10:47.:10:49.

to them but I have one or two queries. The note indicates that

:10:50.:10:56.

mutual recognition of driving disqualification between the UK and

:10:57.:11:01.

Ireland was previously in operation between January 2010 and December

:11:02.:11:06.

2014 pursuant to the European convention on driving

:11:07.:11:10.

disqualifications. It then indicates that following the Lisbon Treaty we

:11:11.:11:14.

opted out of the convention from December 2014 as part of the block

:11:15.:11:20.

opt out under the treaty and the memorandum then states that the

:11:21.:11:23.

purpose of this instrument is to specify a bilateral agreement dated

:11:24.:11:27.

30th of October 2015 between the UK and Ireland on the mutual

:11:28.:11:31.

recognition of driving disqualification is imposed by

:11:32.:11:36.

either state for certain specified road traffic offences, but as I

:11:37.:11:39.

understand it and indeed has the Lord Minister has confirmed do not

:11:40.:11:44.

include disqualifications arising from the trotting up process. Now

:11:45.:11:50.

that the Minister has confirmed that that is the case with elation to the

:11:51.:11:55.

potting up process and I invite him to see a little more about why that

:11:56.:12:00.

is the case? I appreciate that in the Commons a government minister

:12:01.:12:02.

said the Northern Ireland and Ireland were engaged in bilateral

:12:03.:12:09.

discussions through the North-South ministerial Council about major

:12:10.:12:12.

recognition of penalty points. But the minister in the Commons added

:12:13.:12:15.

that this was still a work in progress, frankly is this such a big

:12:16.:12:21.

problem that it still cannot be resolved some 18 months after the

:12:22.:12:25.

bilateral agreement dated 30th of October 2015? Even accepting that

:12:26.:12:31.

penalty points are assessed in a different way in Ireland? How much

:12:32.:12:37.

longer is it going to take? The main point I want to clarify is the

:12:38.:12:42.

length of time for which there has been no mutual recognition of

:12:43.:12:45.

driving disqualification between the UK and Ireland. On the understanding

:12:46.:12:53.

that the previous arrangements ceased on the 1st of December 2000

:12:54.:13:02.

-- 1st of December 2014I want to clarify, I think I know the answer

:13:03.:13:05.

but I want to clarify that they were then not reinstated to the bilateral

:13:06.:13:11.

agreement. And that the impact of that agreement is only be brought

:13:12.:13:15.

into effect by these regulations some 18 months later and some two

:13:16.:13:22.

and a half years after the ceased to apply, which appears to be the

:13:23.:13:26.

situation and I think that is what the noble lord the ministers

:13:27.:13:31.

indicating. If it is that likely to have a half year period which these

:13:32.:13:35.

arrangements have not applied, why has it taken so long since

:13:36.:13:40.

presumably a government have decided well in advance of the 1st of

:13:41.:13:46.

December 2014 opt out state that it would be making the block opt out

:13:47.:13:50.

from the Lisbon Treaty and surely steps that would at least reduce the

:13:51.:13:53.

length of this apparently length the gap could have been put in train

:13:54.:13:59.

much earlier. I would like an extra nation from the government as to why

:14:00.:14:01.

this whole process could not have been expedited somewhat more

:14:02.:14:07.

quickly. It does not look as though it has been given a very high

:14:08.:14:10.

priority, even though it relates to road safety and even though the opt

:14:11.:14:15.

out lead to a weakening of the legislative power on road safety for

:14:16.:14:18.

which there was no supporting evidence will order -- or

:14:19.:14:22.

justification on road safety grounds. Could the noble Lord

:14:23.:14:26.

Minister also see what happened to the mutual wreck nations on

:14:27.:14:30.

disqualifications then in force under the convention when we opted

:14:31.:14:35.

out? Did they remain in force? Or did they then no longer have any

:14:36.:14:41.

legal standing? Finally what is the government estimate of the number of

:14:42.:14:46.

people who could have been disqualified under the mutual

:14:47.:14:47.

recognition agreement arrangements in the not apparently been brought

:14:48.:14:55.

to an end in 2014 with the opt out, but in respect of women has not been

:14:56.:14:59.

possible since then to apply the mutual recognition arrangements

:15:00.:15:03.

because they have no longer been applicable since the opt out? In

:15:04.:15:08.

particular how many people today have we had to have been able to

:15:09.:15:12.

drive in the United Kingdom who would not have been able to do so if

:15:13.:15:16.

we had not opted out of the convention on mutual recognition of

:15:17.:15:20.

driving disqualifications? And how many of those people have

:15:21.:15:23.

subsequently committed road traffic offences in the UK? And if the noble

:15:24.:15:29.

Lord Minister thinks I am asking for somewhat obscure information, I am

:15:30.:15:33.

certainly not. This is about road safety and potentially about people

:15:34.:15:37.

who should not be driving around on the road in the UK and I ask for

:15:38.:15:42.

this information particularly in the light of paragraph 72 of the

:15:43.:15:46.

government's on explanatory memorandum which accepts that it,

:15:47.:15:52.

quote, is important to the UK for reasons of road safety to ensure

:15:53.:15:55.

that drivers so disqualified and Ireland cannot drive on UK roads. It

:15:56.:15:59.

appears as though they have been able to drive on UK roads for the

:16:00.:16:07.

past two and half years. By Lawrence, maybe perhaps I was

:16:08.:16:10.

presumptuous in my opening remarks but from the response perhaps I was

:16:11.:16:16.

right that this would be a short debate. I thank the noble Lord for

:16:17.:16:24.

his support of this measure, he has made a number of important points

:16:25.:16:35.

and I would look -- I would look -- I would not say that the pointy

:16:36.:16:39.

noble Lord has raised our not important. I let myself with his

:16:40.:16:42.

sentiments about the importance -- the importance of road safety. If I

:16:43.:16:46.

could take some of the issues the noble Lord has raised. First of all

:16:47.:16:55.

the issue of why it took so long since 2014, in terms of the EU

:16:56.:17:02.

committed itself the 1988 convention ceased to apply in the EU in

:17:03.:17:07.

December 2016, contempt of the mutual recognition between ourselves

:17:08.:17:11.

and Ireland the only way that we could reintroduce these particular

:17:12.:17:15.

arrangements was by the treaty as the Irish Constitution itself

:17:16.:17:17.

forbids agreements of this nature to be made by items such as in a more

:17:18.:17:22.

year, for example, are similar in formal instruments and therefore it

:17:23.:17:27.

does take time to be agreed and the provisions from the Irish side I

:17:28.:17:31.

believe carried within wider bill that was subsequently passed by the

:17:32.:17:36.

Irish Parliament. On the issue of penalty points, which the noble Lord

:17:37.:17:41.

raised, about not being included, there are different methods of

:17:42.:17:45.

calculating penalty points between the UK and Ireland, so just to give

:17:46.:17:54.

practical examples, it is legally incompatible, for example the UK

:17:55.:18:00.

also counts one we and the Irish Kent and other so the actual

:18:01.:18:05.

enforcement, there are different points apply for different offences.

:18:06.:18:10.

In terms of Northern Ireland specifically, I will get the

:18:11.:18:13.

Northern Irish offers to write further in terms of specific

:18:14.:18:16.

arrangements between Northern Ireland and Ireland. In terms of the

:18:17.:18:24.

numbers of drivers there are around 100 people who are affected from

:18:25.:18:27.

Ireland per year who were banned under these measures in Great

:18:28.:18:32.

Britain and Northern Ireland and an equal number were banned in Ireland.

:18:33.:18:42.

I think I have answered most of all the questions the noble Lord has

:18:43.:18:46.

made but slightly once again emphasise with the noble Lord, he

:18:47.:18:50.

raised the borders of the issue and the fact is that here we are at the

:18:51.:18:54.

last steel terms to speak actually with the government putting this

:18:55.:18:57.

forward again it undermines the importance that we do attach to

:18:58.:19:01.

ensuring that these provisions can be made and that these can be

:19:02.:19:07.

translated into statute. Can I ask before the noble lord sits down, the

:19:08.:19:11.

disqualifications in force under the mutual recognition arrangements that

:19:12.:19:15.

will enforce at the time of the opt out in December 2014, did they

:19:16.:19:18.

continue to apply or did they no longer have any legal status

:19:19.:19:23.

following the opt out? And could the noble Lord Minister for whatever

:19:24.:19:26.

reasons may be just confirm that it has been it in a tuna have your

:19:27.:19:30.

period in which the happy people driving around on the road in the UK

:19:31.:19:33.

who would not have been able to do so if they opt had not been made in

:19:34.:19:40.

2014. On the issue as I said the convention continued in seats to

:19:41.:19:47.

apply in December 20 16 -- December 20 16. On the issue here is about

:19:48.:19:50.

the number of people may not have been driving through any intervening

:19:51.:19:54.

period, I will again get the information in writing to him. But I

:19:55.:19:58.

would emphasise once again that the reason there has been a delay as the

:19:59.:20:04.

season, but the reason is between the 2014 and the date that we are

:20:05.:20:07.

now putting forward was also due to the fact of respecting the other

:20:08.:20:13.

side of the discussion, which was the Irish site, in ensuring that

:20:14.:20:15.

they would go through the appropriate due process to ensure

:20:16.:20:19.

that they could then implement this particular piece of legislation. The

:20:20.:20:25.

question is that this motion be agreed to. As many of that opinion

:20:26.:20:31.

will say content. Content. Country not content, content is added. Lord

:20:32.:20:38.

Clarke of Windermere. My Lords, in moving the motion in my name, I

:20:39.:20:44.

think it is particularly important that the final debate of this

:20:45.:20:50.

Parliament in this house is on a matter of such concern to the

:20:51.:20:55.

British people, our National Health Service. And if there is one group

:20:56.:21:03.

of people who actually are top, always, the approval rate of the

:21:04.:21:04.

British people, it is nurses. It is widely accepted that the

:21:05.:21:16.

national health service provides real value for money. In fact we get

:21:17.:21:24.

health on the cheap in this country. We actually spend less on health

:21:25.:21:31.

than any other member, bar one, of the G-7 nations and I am not sure

:21:32.:21:38.

that that can continue for very much longer. I think we are going to have

:21:39.:21:44.

to spend more on health with our ageing population and with the

:21:45.:21:49.

growth of what is technological possible. It a sense, we have been

:21:50.:21:55.

helped in this debate by a report of a select committee of this House on

:21:56.:22:00.

the long-term stability of the NHS and adult social care. They draw to

:22:01.:22:07.

our attention how we failed over the years to have long-term planning for

:22:08.:22:14.

the way in which we organise staff and of course we must remember there

:22:15.:22:23.

are approximately 150,000 people who work for the health service. It is

:22:24.:22:29.

indeed a fascinating organisation. You have this labour-intensive

:22:30.:22:33.

organisation which nursing in one way implies, yet it is married and

:22:34.:22:43.

works alongside high, cutting edge technology and science and it works

:22:44.:22:48.

and we must continue to ensure that it works, but the key is actually

:22:49.:22:56.

the staff. The staff at every level. And I think anyone who follows the

:22:57.:23:05.

press, who talks to doctors, talks to nurses, talks to the other

:23:06.:23:11.

professionals will know that our health service, our national Health

:23:12.:23:16.

Service is actually in deep trouble and is only functioning safely due

:23:17.:23:26.

to the work level of the staff and the intense dedication they have

:23:27.:23:32.

towards the service in which they work, but that, cannot continue

:23:33.:23:41.

indefinitely. The Royal colleges are telling us of nursing, midwifery and

:23:42.:23:48.

all the medical disciplines are telling us that we are getting

:23:49.:23:51.

towards a breaking point. This strain is intense, the morale is

:23:52.:23:59.

low. If we just take nursing, there are currently and I think there is

:24:00.:24:04.

no disagreement with this about 24,000 nurses short. That doesn't

:24:05.:24:11.

only affect our National Health Service but it affects something

:24:12.:24:17.

else, which is a big issue at the moment and this is the after-care

:24:18.:24:22.

service, because quite frankly I have had a number of care providers,

:24:23.:24:29.

nursing home providers contacting me and saying they have had to close

:24:30.:24:34.

beds because they cannot get nurses to staff them. And we tend to

:24:35.:24:41.

neglect that I dress mention it in passing today, because I want to

:24:42.:24:45.

concentrate on the whole service. Indeed gather the Government have

:24:46.:24:51.

had a report which is not yet public, which was available to them

:24:52.:24:58.

in March which suggested on a worse figure scenario, I have the size

:24:59.:25:04.

that, that by the early 20s, we would not be 24,000 nurses short but

:25:05.:25:12.

we would be 42,000 nurses short. And all this is not helped. The morale

:25:13.:25:20.

is not helped by the fact that nurses who are not well paid to

:25:21.:25:24.

start with but are highly qualified, all the nurses are now graduates,

:25:25.:25:31.

they have got to do professional work, increasingly they are doing

:25:32.:25:35.

the work that was traditionally done by doctors. They are able to do it,

:25:36.:25:39.

they are skilled to do it and we benefit greatly, but the 1% annual

:25:40.:25:49.

pay which they have been... They have had to accept since 2010 is

:25:50.:25:57.

having a massive effect on morale. Especially when people are having to

:25:58.:26:04.

work so hard. We only get by because we imported nurses from overseas. We

:26:05.:26:09.

have traditionally done that. I am not just blaming the Government in

:26:10.:26:13.

this case, but the problem is now acute. Because of those nurses from

:26:14.:26:25.

overseas, 20,000 of them originate from European Union countries and in

:26:26.:26:29.

spite of efforts and pleading by myself and other people, we cannot

:26:30.:26:35.

get the Government to commit to those 20,000 people who work so hard

:26:36.:26:40.

in our National Health Service that they should be allowed to stay in

:26:41.:26:45.

Britain. That would be easy to do because all we need to do is

:26:46.:26:50.

actually to tweak the residency rules and that could be done without

:26:51.:26:55.

causing any problems, yet it would be of great benefit in retaining

:26:56.:27:01.

those nurses. I do believe we should of that -- offered them permanent

:27:02.:27:08.

residency as they have dedicated so much effort to providing health care

:27:09.:27:14.

to our population, but at the end of the day, we must train more

:27:15.:27:19.

home-grown nurses. The supply is there because for every person who

:27:20.:27:27.

has accepted onto a nursing course at the University, there is twice as

:27:28.:27:35.

many people applying, so there is the quality and quantity of

:27:36.:27:39.

individuals who want to train as nurses and the reason why they are

:27:40.:27:43.

not being trained as nurses is because the Government have insisted

:27:44.:27:49.

on a cap on the numbers. The universities are not allowed to

:27:50.:27:54.

accept more nurses than has been agreed with the Government and I

:27:55.:28:01.

think by imposing this cap we actually are exacerbating the

:28:02.:28:07.

problem and actually, and I got to challenge the Minister on this, it

:28:08.:28:12.

does come to the point that we are only really talking about saving

:28:13.:28:16.

money. That is what is dominating the Government's approach to the

:28:17.:28:24.

training of nurses. Now, just to re-capital, the system that has been

:28:25.:28:30.

developed, the bursary system meant that nurses who went into training

:28:31.:28:37.

didn't actually pay fees and the quid pro quo was that they then went

:28:38.:28:45.

on and worked in the care services or the National Health Service. That

:28:46.:28:48.

system worked well and was fully subscribed. But under the proposals

:28:49.:28:53.

we are debating today, these individuals will have to pay ?9,000

:28:54.:29:01.

per year in fees for three years, which with their living costs mean

:29:02.:29:07.

that the nurses enter a profession not well paid, with ?50,000 minimum

:29:08.:29:16.

hanging on their shoulders. And I don't think that is a very sensible

:29:17.:29:22.

way of approaching it, because we have to accept that the nursing

:29:23.:29:27.

students courses at universities are very different from most courses. It

:29:28.:29:33.

isn't just lectures and library work. At least half the time of

:29:34.:29:40.

nurses in training is spent on the job. It is spent on clinical

:29:41.:29:46.

training and indeed in most hospitals, most patients wouldn't

:29:47.:29:52.

actually really determine which was a student nurse and which was a

:29:53.:29:58.

qualified nurse, because the student nurses are actually doing the work

:29:59.:30:02.

of the trade nurses as well except in a few technical specialist areas.

:30:03.:30:13.

It is ironic, yes... Could he tell the House his point about the number

:30:14.:30:20.

of nurses who previously got bursaries and his point about the

:30:21.:30:24.

financial controls on bursaries, could he tell the House what

:30:25.:30:29.

proportion of those applying were unable to get bursaries and

:30:30.:30:32.

therefore unable to get training places? As I understand the question

:30:33.:30:41.

that you were not allowed anybody who was on the course was accepted

:30:42.:30:48.

onto the course got a bursary, so they've all got the bursary, as I

:30:49.:30:53.

understand the situation. I am pretty sure I am right on that, but

:30:54.:30:58.

the point I was making about the courses being different was not only

:30:59.:31:01.

that it was more intensive and work on the job, it was also longer. The

:31:02.:31:06.

average course length at the universities for nursing, midwives

:31:07.:31:14.

and allied health professionals is 39 weeks a year, much longer than

:31:15.:31:20.

the average student course, so it is a different course, they have no

:31:21.:31:27.

opportunity, or little opportunity, to do any extracurricular work

:31:28.:31:33.

because of the nature of the job. Yet while they are working on wards,

:31:34.:31:37.

as I have said, they work as the team. Now, in essence what the

:31:38.:31:44.

Government are insisting, and I think this is the first time for

:31:45.:31:48.

decades they are actually insisting that the nurses pay for working in

:31:49.:31:57.

the health service. They are paying their ?9,000 a year to work as

:31:58.:32:04.

unpaid nurses and I think that is actually scandalous. Absolutely

:32:05.:32:08.

scandalous! Because even before the new system came in, if we go back 50

:32:09.:32:13.

years, you were accepted on a nursing course, you went to the

:32:14.:32:18.

hospitals, you were trained there, it was a mixture of rocks in the

:32:19.:32:24.

hospital and also working on the wards as well, that is how it

:32:25.:32:27.

traditionally went, but the nurses did not have to pay to actually

:32:28.:32:35.

perform those tasks and I do think it is outrageous that this

:32:36.:32:39.

Government is insisting that the nurses should actually pay for their

:32:40.:32:46.

own training. Now, the Government's justification for this change is to

:32:47.:32:49.

increase the number of nurses being trained. That is something that we

:32:50.:32:54.

all welcome, we all want the number of nurses to be increased, it would

:32:55.:33:01.

help in so many ways. I mean, virtually every hospital now

:33:02.:33:09.

survives by using agency nurses, paying far, far more in hourly pay

:33:10.:33:16.

them the NHS staff nurses get paid and we could save billions of pounds

:33:17.:33:24.

if we had sufficient nurses to staff our NHS and our after-care service,

:33:25.:33:28.

so what I am arguing actually makes financial sense, but the point the

:33:29.:33:37.

Government are making is that they are prepared, if nurses pay for

:33:38.:33:40.

their own education and this is perhaps the point that the noble

:33:41.:33:46.

Lord was making, if they paid, they would lift the cap. So the

:33:47.:33:50.

universities could train as many students as they wanted and that is

:33:51.:33:56.

something I hope works. I want the system to work, but then become to

:33:57.:34:03.

the problem, it is easy enough for the universities to expand their

:34:04.:34:08.

lectures, to provide their library facilities, but the difficulty comes

:34:09.:34:18.

when the health service has gone to provide their mentors, the Chuter is

:34:19.:34:22.

to provide the practical oversight of the students when they are

:34:23.:34:26.

working on the wards and in clinical situations, and there is no

:34:27.:34:31.

provision as I can see by the Government to provide extra money to

:34:32.:34:36.

hospital trusts to actually perform that critical part. At least half

:34:37.:34:46.

the part of the cost of nursing. So I believe that this proposal, which

:34:47.:34:51.

I want to work, I think it is highly risky. I think when you look at the

:34:52.:34:57.

fact that we are dependent on nurses from the European Union and if you

:34:58.:35:05.

look at the latest figures, you find that there has been a 90% for in the

:35:06.:35:12.

registration of nurses from the European Union countries by December

:35:13.:35:20.

of last year, a 90% drop. It is an ominous sign and then we have the

:35:21.:35:27.

figures from the Government and they showed that the number of applicants

:35:28.:35:35.

was down by 23%. I accept the Government point these were

:35:36.:35:41.

applicants, they were not people who had actually been accepted on the

:35:42.:35:47.

course, but what worries me is that if this follows through and if the

:35:48.:35:54.

Government does not get students prepared to roll at universities, we

:35:55.:36:00.

are going to find we are making no inroads at all into this shortage of

:36:01.:36:04.

24,000 nurses. And I believe that the government

:36:05.:36:16.

approach is a high risk approach, when you have such a large shortage

:36:17.:36:21.

there must be other ways of dealing with it. Why can't they just, for a

:36:22.:36:29.

number of years, lift the cap on universities and say, train as many

:36:30.:36:36.

as you possibly can. Why don't we even say, if the government are not

:36:37.:36:39.

prepared to go that way, why don't they say, look, nursing students who

:36:40.:36:46.

actually then go on and spent a number of years working in the NHS,

:36:47.:36:52.

low paid as it is, that we should say to them, we will write off your

:36:53.:36:58.

Jewish and fees? That -- we wouldn't write off your tuition fees. I do

:36:59.:37:06.

not believe we can risk the government proposal. I believe it is

:37:07.:37:11.

high risk and that is why I feel it should have been debated and is

:37:12.:37:14.

being debated in this time and I think it is interesting and

:37:15.:37:19.

important that we have a full debate on this issue. The question is that

:37:20.:37:29.

this motion be agreed to. I declare my interests as I am on the register

:37:30.:37:34.

and I believe that this afternoon I am the only registered nurse in the

:37:35.:37:40.

house. Nursing is the largest profession in the UK, and some half

:37:41.:37:45.

a million people are only professional register. It is vital

:37:46.:37:49.

that the international shortage of nurses and allied health professions

:37:50.:37:53.

is recognised and that more investment is given to meet the

:37:54.:38:00.

demand for health care the future. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord

:38:01.:38:05.

Windermere, that the need to spend more on health and social care in

:38:06.:38:08.

the United Kingdom is essential but not necessarily with your solution.

:38:09.:38:16.

There needs to be at least three pathways to becoming a registered

:38:17.:38:23.

nurse. We have supported as a profession the introduction of an

:38:24.:38:28.

associate nurse wrote, which issued enable people to be paid while

:38:29.:38:32.

learning and working and proceed ultimately if they so wish to train

:38:33.:38:38.

for the register through a sophisticated apprenticeship style

:38:39.:38:44.

right. We have the pilots in progress at the moment. The second

:38:45.:38:51.

important developments in NHS's recent five-year plan is in

:38:52.:38:55.

principle support for a graduate entry route similar to teach first

:38:56.:39:02.

to be known as nurse first, this is likely to be piloted in mental

:39:03.:39:09.

health and learning disability branches this autumn and would

:39:10.:39:11.

provide an alternative route into nursing. And the third-rate which

:39:12.:39:18.

the majority of students follow -- the third route, his a three-year

:39:19.:39:24.

university programme with clinical placements both within the NHS and

:39:25.:39:29.

other health care providers and the emphasis on hospital placements is

:39:30.:39:35.

not nearly as important at the moment as the need to ensure that

:39:36.:39:39.

students have experience in community settings and care homes,

:39:40.:39:45.

many of which are in the independent sector. Because that is where a lot

:39:46.:39:49.

of people are cared for now, as well as at home. I therefore believe that

:39:50.:39:58.

rather than reinstate the bursary where we know that a lot of people

:39:59.:40:02.

applied to go to university because the bursary was there and we had a

:40:03.:40:10.

very high dropout in year one, and I was a day when that was happening so

:40:11.:40:15.

I speak from experience, or someone who completed the course but never

:40:16.:40:19.

had any intention of clinical nursing but wanted to go into a car

:40:20.:40:24.

or perhaps become common air stewardess, neither of which I think

:40:25.:40:28.

is a bad thing, but they have used the bursary structure to get the

:40:29.:40:31.

degree as an entry into those programmes rather than an intention

:40:32.:40:35.

to necessarily spend a lifetime of caregiving. So I think it would be

:40:36.:40:41.

preferable to invest in the three methods of education leading to

:40:42.:40:47.

registration, but seriously consider giving a bursary for the third year

:40:48.:40:51.

of training when I would agree with the noble Lord most students give a

:40:52.:40:57.

huge amount to the NHS in that third year. And often really pretty

:40:58.:41:05.

indistinguishable in the final six months from a registered nurse. I

:41:06.:41:12.

also fully support the concept that we ought to consider forgiveable

:41:13.:41:19.

student loans following a period of employment in NHS on qualifying,

:41:20.:41:23.

rather like that which is required -- that is granted to some nurses

:41:24.:41:28.

and medics sponsored by the forces during the education provision. The

:41:29.:41:32.

other thing that I want to draw the house's attention to is that there

:41:33.:41:37.

are half a million nurses in this country, in the four countries that

:41:38.:41:42.

make up the United Kingdom and we have invested very little in return

:41:43.:41:44.

to nursing programmes and encouraging them back to work and

:41:45.:41:50.

that might be the fastest route to get some or registered nurses back

:41:51.:41:55.

into practice. Finally I want to support the concept that you just

:41:56.:42:01.

addressed, that public sector salaries have been significantly

:42:02.:42:06.

tightened in the last few years and there's a definite case that initial

:42:07.:42:10.

starting salaries in the NHS for and allied health professionals should

:42:11.:42:17.

be increased to recognise that they will be expected to repay the two

:42:18.:42:26.

bones as from 2020. -- repay their student loans from 2020. As a woman

:42:27.:42:30.

I get very upset at the idea that many nurses will not have to pay

:42:31.:42:35.

back the student loan because they do not care very much. That is not

:42:36.:42:40.

the right approach. I urge any future governments to invest further

:42:41.:42:43.

in health and social care in order to be train to retain and recruit

:42:44.:42:51.

health care professionals. Currently, the ratio of women to men

:42:52.:42:56.

in nursing is named: one and has remained unchanged for many years.

:42:57.:43:04.

-- is 9-1. We're spending significant time and money on

:43:05.:43:09.

recruiting female engineers, perhaps we should do similarly to encourage

:43:10.:43:13.

more men into the allied health professions than nursing. I do

:43:14.:43:18.

expect that this will only be possible if there is fair

:43:19.:43:25.

remuneration for nursing work in funding for continued professional

:43:26.:43:29.

development as currently happens in medicine. I believe the issues I

:43:30.:43:37.

have outlined would be a more strategic approach to the challenges

:43:38.:43:40.

we face than the straightforward introduction bursaries in the first

:43:41.:43:44.

two years of university programmes leading to registration. I realised

:43:45.:43:53.

that members opposite anxious to get away to campaign for the reader in

:43:54.:44:00.

the forthcoming election. But 20 years ago as a junior minister

:44:01.:44:12.

responsible for health, I was asked to sponsor something called Project

:44:13.:44:17.

2000 and the move that all nurses should be graduates. I thought it

:44:18.:44:20.

was a rather silly idea. I could see and there might be a case for having

:44:21.:44:26.

some health professionals who had degrees, but getting rid of what was

:44:27.:44:30.

the old State registered nurse system seems to me to be a huge

:44:31.:44:37.

mistake. The chief nurse was a particularly formidable person at my

:44:38.:44:39.

Secretary of State did not agree with me. And I have to say that over

:44:40.:44:43.

the last 20 years I think those people who argued that we did

:44:44.:44:47.

actually needs people who would do perhaps the less, and not the less

:44:48.:44:53.

important, actually some of the most important but more menial tasks, the

:44:54.:44:57.

ending of bedpans and spending time with patients, the general care that

:44:58.:45:03.

was so much a part of the health service, that he did not have too

:45:04.:45:07.

have a university degree in order to achieve that. And I very much hope

:45:08.:45:11.

that the government will think about that again. Baroness Watkins is

:45:12.:45:20.

almost got the invoice you saying about creating, and I do not mean

:45:21.:45:24.

that in a red sense, I mean she has almost got there in tens of offering

:45:25.:45:27.

a path forward that might address this problem but I do not believe

:45:28.:45:30.

that everyone needs to be graduates and the reason that I interrupted

:45:31.:45:34.

the noble Lord to ask him how many of the people who applied to become

:45:35.:45:43.

nurses actually ended up doing a degree and ended up as nurses is

:45:44.:45:47.

because I knew the answer to my own question, which is that it is a

:45:48.:45:51.

small proportion. What the government, and I thought his speech

:45:52.:45:57.

contained a number of very important points, with which I agree, we are

:45:58.:46:01.

going to train more nurses as a result of leaving the European

:46:02.:46:06.

Union, that is clearly important. We are going to train more nurses

:46:07.:46:10.

because of the demands upon the health service. But it seems to me

:46:11.:46:13.

that what the government is proposing in these regulations,

:46:14.:46:16.

which is to remove the cap and to provide the funding for a scheme of

:46:17.:46:23.

loans, will provide for that and is addressing the problem. Now whether

:46:24.:46:27.

the government are prepared to consider baroness Watkinss and Noble

:46:28.:46:32.

suggestion that there may be a case at a stage in versus careers when

:46:33.:46:38.

they have served the health service for a longer period for forgiving

:46:39.:46:44.

the loans, that is another question. And certainly in the economic

:46:45.:46:48.

affairs committee when we looked at the representations that we had

:46:49.:46:52.

lunch in London I am not surprised, I would not be surprised if that

:46:53.:46:57.

actually does not represent a better deal for the taxpayer than

:46:58.:47:00.

continuing with the repayment where people are on not substantial

:47:01.:47:06.

salaries. I very much hope, while I think that the noble Lord has

:47:07.:47:11.

identified some real issues, I very much hope that people are not

:47:12.:47:15.

actually going to vote for this motion which would actually says is

:47:16.:47:19.

backwards and not provide for the opportunity which it provides for

:47:20.:47:21.

more nurses to be trained and brought into our health service, and

:47:22.:47:28.

I hope also that the government will consider whether it is absolutely

:47:29.:47:31.

necessary for people to have university degrees in order to be

:47:32.:47:34.

able to perform message at ease in our health service. My lord in the

:47:35.:47:43.

absence of a voice in the opposition benches let me briefly intervened. I

:47:44.:47:46.

shall declare interest as a visiting professor at Kings College in London

:47:47.:47:53.

which does work through Guy 's and St Thomas 's. Lord Clarke was right

:47:54.:47:56.

about the importance of nurses, and also the importance of the lack of a

:47:57.:48:01.

supply, suitable supply of nurses in the old regime. We know from

:48:02.:48:05.

baroness Watkins, a very constructive intervention, but I

:48:06.:48:10.

would like to see to Lord Clarke, nurses should not be worried about a

:48:11.:48:17.

model of fees and loans with graduate repayment. We went through

:48:18.:48:21.

all of these concerns when we shifted mainstream education into

:48:22.:48:25.

fees and loans in the first year there was a decline in applications,

:48:26.:48:29.

but is an assisted and is understood that they were not paying upfront,

:48:30.:48:33.

it was a repayment scheme where they would only pay back if they started

:48:34.:48:39.

any more than 21,000 per year and through PAYE, in other words the

:48:40.:48:44.

so-called debt was nothing like a bank overdraft credit card debt, it

:48:45.:48:47.

was repayment through the income tax system if you are earning enough to

:48:48.:48:53.

pay. That tackled the concerns and since then we have seen an

:48:54.:48:57.

increasing number of students applying for university. And the

:48:58.:48:59.

second point I would like to make follows an from the excellent

:49:00.:49:03.

intervention from my noble friend Lord Forsyth. The reason we are

:49:04.:49:08.

short of nurses is successive governments have been rationing the

:49:09.:49:12.

number of nurses. Successive governments have been rationing the

:49:13.:49:16.

numbers of nurses because nursing places have been financed out of now

:49:17.:49:22.

-- public expenditure in the way to control public expenditure was to

:49:23.:49:26.

control masses. That is why back in 2004-2005 we were funding 25

:49:27.:49:32.

thousand nurses the year and that has been under steady decline to

:49:33.:49:37.

around 17,000 now. There is no prospect of any government if we

:49:38.:49:41.

look at that evidence as to what has happened in the past decade, of

:49:42.:49:44.

having more nurse places under the old system. A crucial part of these

:49:45.:49:51.

reforms is to remove the cap on places so we will have more nurse

:49:52.:49:54.

places under the new system. So what this new system does is it actually

:49:55.:50:00.

delivers more cash to cover their living costs for nurses during the

:50:01.:50:06.

nursing education. It delivers more money parent nurse for universities

:50:07.:50:11.

providing nurse education through the fees and loans system. And it

:50:12.:50:17.

removes the cap and provides the NHS with more trained nurses in total.

:50:18.:50:22.

That is a construct of reform for the NHS, it is progress on tackling

:50:23.:50:27.

the long-standing problems -- in which Lord Clarke drew attention to

:50:28.:50:30.

and it is why have to say this motion is misconceived. This is a

:50:31.:50:37.

terrible time for the government to undertake a highly risky revision of

:50:38.:50:42.

the funding of student nurses. We are already short of nurses as Lord

:50:43.:50:45.

Clarke has told us and of course midwives as well and the imminent

:50:46.:50:49.

Brexit has already made that worse with as we have heard in 80% drop in

:50:50.:50:54.

the number of applications from EEA nurses. In addition to that we're

:50:55.:50:59.

losing nurses due overwork and poor morale.

:51:00.:51:05.

The Government focused on implementation rather than looking

:51:06.:51:10.

carefully at alternative ways of funding nurse training to ensure

:51:11.:51:15.

fairness and a stable increase supply of nurses. The excellent

:51:16.:51:20.

speech by the noble lady Baroness Morgan Kings clearly demonstrates

:51:21.:51:25.

that there are many different ways of doing that and I am not convinced

:51:26.:51:32.

that the Government has taken all those proposals into account. It

:51:33.:51:36.

really ought to stop in its tracks at the moment and look at all those

:51:37.:51:41.

alternatives before going ahead with this regulation. We are still

:51:42.:51:46.

waiting for information about how or whether the practice placements will

:51:47.:51:50.

be funded wherever that is, whether in the NHS or the care services. As

:51:51.:51:58.

we have heard, nurses have to do 2300 hours in a clinical placement.

:51:59.:52:03.

This requires considerable resorts input from the hospitals or care

:52:04.:52:09.

placements. Hospitals most of which are already in deficit and without

:52:10.:52:12.

proper resources there is no way the system can accommodate 10,000 extra

:52:13.:52:19.

student nurses even if as we all hope the Government is right and

:52:20.:52:22.

universities to offer that many additional places. I do understand

:52:23.:52:27.

where the noble Lord Willets is coming from and clearly the tuition

:52:28.:52:37.

fees and loan system has not put off students in most university courses.

:52:38.:52:41.

But nurses are different from other students, so be it is not a given

:52:42.:52:45.

that they would respond like students on other courses to the

:52:46.:52:50.

need to take out loans and pay fees. They are more predominantly from

:52:51.:52:55.

lower socio economical groups and they have a higher proportions of

:52:56.:52:59.

mature students with family commitments. They spent nearly half

:53:00.:53:05.

their course times in hospital placements and have a high number of

:53:06.:53:09.

contact how was that other students and that makes it more difficult for

:53:10.:53:13.

them to get a part-time job to fund their living expenses as other

:53:14.:53:18.

students can do. Because they are not highly paid, it has been

:53:19.:53:21.

calculating that the vast majority of them will not have paid off their

:53:22.:53:29.

student loans over 30 years so that they will be written off. It is a

:53:30.:53:38.

fact. Some also have other student loans from other courses that they

:53:39.:53:42.

have previously undertaken, so this strategy of the Government will not

:53:43.:53:48.

necessarily save much money. It will shift the dirt off the books which I

:53:49.:53:53.

suppose was the objective. I do hope the Government have been hasty.

:53:54.:54:00.

Instead of removing the bursaries we need a thoroughgoing investigation

:54:01.:54:03.

into the factors affecting nurse recruitment and retention, because

:54:04.:54:08.

the latter is a very portable factor. It is no use filling up the

:54:09.:54:13.

bucket if there is a hole in the bottom and in this case there is.

:54:14.:54:18.

Retention of Judith nurses to the end of their causes poor and

:54:19.:54:22.

retention of nurses and midwives beyond the first two years after

:54:23.:54:28.

qualification is also poor. So not for the first time do I asked the

:54:29.:54:34.

minister whether he will ensure that data is collected in a consistent

:54:35.:54:38.

way so that we can identify those settings that are good at keeping

:54:39.:54:43.

their students, their nurses and their midwives and those that are

:54:44.:54:47.

not. We can then learn from best practice and spread it. The impact

:54:48.:54:53.

of the Government's plans on admissions, student numbers and

:54:54.:54:57.

quality and on the stability of the qualified workforce is yet unclear

:54:58.:55:01.

and the Government has not said how it intends to monitor this impact on

:55:02.:55:08.

the workforce. Without a solid evidence base, this policy should

:55:09.:55:13.

not go ahead. Therefore I support the regret motion and call on the

:55:14.:55:18.

Government to think again. When I was granted a topical question on

:55:19.:55:25.

this subject for which I am very much appreciated, when I was granted

:55:26.:55:34.

that topical question, the noble Lord chose to characterise my

:55:35.:55:39.

opposition to the Government's damaging proposals as a side I did

:55:40.:55:43.

not support the policy of student loans. Wench to judgments were first

:55:44.:55:47.

introduced by the Labour government, both studying for health professions

:55:48.:55:54.

were excluded. As tuition fees rose, successive governments maintained

:55:55.:56:01.

that exclusion and we don't need to ask why, because Lord Clarke and

:56:02.:56:07.

other speakers in this debate have made it clear that students building

:56:08.:56:14.

a career in those professions are quite unlike the wider student

:56:15.:56:18.

population. The most revealing statistic on that is that 41% of

:56:19.:56:24.

them in those categories are over 25 compared to 80% of the total student

:56:25.:56:30.

population, that sets them apart -- 18%. They are unable to support

:56:31.:56:37.

themselves as other students can do during their studies because of the

:56:38.:56:45.

hours required of students in the health professions. None of this was

:56:46.:56:49.

taken into account by the Government, a government anxious to

:56:50.:56:53.

make savings and despite having those facts, they have declined to

:56:54.:56:58.

alter the cause they have set on. The nursing workforce already has

:56:59.:57:05.

severe shortages, of 225000 and and we know fewer nurses from the EU are

:57:06.:57:12.

coming to work and by 2020, nearly half the workforce will be eligible

:57:13.:57:16.

for retirement. What does the Government do, it ends the

:57:17.:57:20.

established practice of providing nursing students with bursaries and

:57:21.:57:23.

tells them to take out loans that will leave them with debts of at

:57:24.:57:30.

least ?50,000. I heard what the noble Lord said. But it is

:57:31.:57:37.

nonetheless the fact that those seeking to study for nursing,

:57:38.:57:40.

midwifery and allied professions on the basis they would have had a

:57:41.:57:48.

personally, that is a shock but it is not the case. -- bursary. This is

:57:49.:57:54.

a sudden shock brought about by the Government and it will have a

:57:55.:57:56.

Dutchman told effect on those wanting to study. When ever we need

:57:57.:58:02.

the NHS we like to think it is there for us but we are anxious when loved

:58:03.:58:07.

ones need to spend time in hospital and we require adequate nurses for

:58:08.:58:15.

that treatment. I have to say the Government is failing the NHS and a

:58:16.:58:19.

further example was provided to date when councils opinion in response to

:58:20.:58:25.

my noble friend Lord Hunt stated that the Government is acting

:58:26.:58:31.

illegally by not compelling NHS England to treat the required 92% of

:58:32.:58:37.

patients within 18 weeks. Lord Hunt has submitted a motion which appears

:58:38.:58:44.

on page four and I think that highlights the fact that the

:58:45.:58:46.

Government are cavalier in the way in which they are allowing patients

:58:47.:58:53.

to be treated. The latest applications for nursing courses

:58:54.:59:00.

last year started in September, they are down by some 23% and the latest

:59:01.:59:06.

data available for March shows that that decline is continuing and

:59:07.:59:10.

although there is still a ratio of 2-1 applicants to training places,

:59:11.:59:15.

the fall in applicants could compromise the quality of

:59:16.:59:21.

candidates. More over it could deter prospective students when they

:59:22.:59:24.

understand the applications of the student loan system. The general

:59:25.:59:30.

secretary of the Royal College of Nursing said, the nursing workforce

:59:31.:59:35.

is in crisis and as fewer nurses graduate, it will exacerbate an

:59:36.:59:38.

unsustainable situation. The outlook is bleak. Those are her words. The

:59:39.:59:47.

National Health Service peer-reviewed body said the removal

:59:48.:59:51.

of bursaries could also have a disruptive impact on the supply or

:59:52.:59:56.

quality of supply and the removal of the bursary could have an unsettling

:59:57.:00:03.

effect on the number and quality of applicants training. Why is it the

:00:04.:00:08.

Government is certain it has a monopoly on wisdom? We should also

:00:09.:00:14.

ask the question as to why they are doing it? The Government has said

:00:15.:00:22.

firstly it will add 10,000 nurses up to 2020, but far from a courage in

:00:23.:00:29.

-- encouraging additional placements, cutting bursaries will

:00:30.:00:33.

discourage many because of the fear of debt and the House of Commons

:00:34.:00:36.

Public Accounts Committee said in its report that the changes could

:00:37.:00:42.

have a negative effect an impact on both the overall number of

:00:43.:00:46.

applicants and on certain groups such as mature students or those

:00:47.:00:53.

with children. A student numbers are not there, higher institutions will

:00:54.:01:00.

be worse off because of the decline. The Government's proposal also

:01:01.:01:04.

stated it will ensure sustainable funding for universities but has yet

:01:05.:01:08.

there is no indication of an increase in funding. A study by

:01:09.:01:20.

London economics found that higher education institutions will be worse

:01:21.:01:24.

off by around 50 million per cohort. Half of this will be as a result of

:01:25.:01:29.

a decline in student numbers and there is able danger that some

:01:30.:01:33.

universities may decide to stop running some health-related courses

:01:34.:01:35.

if they are deemed unsustainable. The Government have also said

:01:36.:01:52.

scrapping NHS bursaries will save the Treasury money but there will be

:01:53.:01:57.

no cost savings because most nurses will not earn enough to repay the

:01:58.:02:01.

loan and the decline in numbers entering nursing will increase

:02:02.:02:05.

agency nursing staffing costs. London economics estimated that with

:02:06.:02:10.

increased agency costs, there will be more than an additional ?100

:02:11.:02:16.

million cost by trusts per cohort, wiping out any potential savings.

:02:17.:02:22.

These proposal should not be preceded with at least until the gum

:02:23.:02:25.

has published the results of the second stage of its consultation. It

:02:26.:02:34.

has been delayed and will not see it now until the other side of the

:02:35.:02:38.

election and that is unsatisfactory and it is confirmation of what is no

:02:39.:02:44.

more than a leap into the dark. That is no way to treat the career

:02:45.:02:49.

development of some of our most wonderful public servants. These

:02:50.:02:54.

changes are high risk at the time as the NHS is ill-equipped to cope with

:02:55.:03:02.

some risk. Can I just end with a comment in response to the

:03:03.:03:07.

dismissive jibe by Lord Forsyth. I say to him, yes, we are keen to get

:03:08.:03:13.

on came in and that is what we will do to encourage the people to elect

:03:14.:03:17.

a government that will properly fund and value the NHS and its staff.

:03:18.:03:28.

Bring it on. Can I first thank all noble Lords who have contributed to

:03:29.:03:33.

this debate. Also to congratulate the noble Lord Clarke on his

:03:34.:03:38.

prescience in scheduling this debate several weeks ago. He clearly has

:03:39.:03:42.

admirers in the Leader of the Opposition's office.

:03:43.:03:53.

While the noble Lord may have been prescient and influential, I fear on

:03:54.:04:01.

this issue he and the Labour Party and Lib Dems are wrong. They are

:04:02.:04:06.

wrong because the new system we are introducing for student nurses

:04:07.:04:10.

matches that experienced by other undergraduate students, a system

:04:11.:04:14.

that has been a primary driver of a bigger scansion of higher education

:04:15.:04:19.

and improve participation among the disadvantage and wrong because of

:04:20.:04:23.

the impact of Brexit. I thought the Labour Party was in favour of

:04:24.:04:29.

leaving the EU although having heard the policy, but is anyone's guess

:04:30.:04:34.

but I can reassure the House that this Government not only understands

:04:35.:04:38.

the difficult choices that need to be made to ensure our NHS has the

:04:39.:04:44.

resources it needs to thrive, but it will be a... I would like to join

:04:45.:04:56.

other noble Lords in paying tribute to the work that more than 2.5

:04:57.:05:02.

million people working in the NHS do every day often in challenging

:05:03.:05:06.

conditions. They represent values to which we all aspire, service,

:05:07.:05:10.

hardware, can passion and dine inspiration. They cannot be a person

:05:11.:05:15.

in this country who cannot give them thanks for their expertise and

:05:16.:05:19.

commitment. This Government is taking action to support that

:05:20.:05:23.

workforce so that it can deliver excellent patient care through

:05:24.:05:28.

flexible working, good leadership and Eucharist raptures. As part of

:05:29.:05:33.

these changes from August 2017, new full-time students studying nursing,

:05:34.:05:40.

midwifery will have access to the standard student support system for

:05:41.:05:42.

tuition fee loans and maintenance loans. These reforms will enable

:05:43.:05:48.

more money to go into front-line services around ?1 billion a year to

:05:49.:05:50.

be reinvested in the NHS. In addition they help secure the

:05:51.:05:59.

future supply of nurses and health care professionals. First by

:06:00.:06:03.

removing the cap that has been identified by my noble friend is

:06:04.:06:06.

being a feature of the current system so that more applicants can

:06:07.:06:09.

gain a place in the universities will be able to deliver up to 10,000

:06:10.:06:14.

additional training places. The changes also enable a typical

:06:15.:06:18.

provision of 25% increase in living costs a port for health care

:06:19.:06:22.

students and it puts universities in a stronger financial and competitive

:06:23.:06:26.

position so they are able to invest sustainably for the long-term. The

:06:27.:06:32.

noble lady baroness Watkins in her excellent and well-informed speech

:06:33.:06:35.

also pointed out that it removes a perverse incentive of the current

:06:36.:06:38.

system where it is the sole degree that is subsidised in that way and

:06:39.:06:43.

that brings with it a number of benefits as well, including I should

:06:44.:06:47.

say addressing the issue identified by the noble lady around retention

:06:48.:06:53.

on courses of people who are fully committed to taking part in a

:06:54.:07:00.

nursing career. Successive governments and reforms to student

:07:01.:07:09.

finance have seen methods put in place the reforms should finance.

:07:10.:07:13.

This is in more people than ever to benefit from university education

:07:14.:07:18.

and has spread firmly costs throughout society at large that the

:07:19.:07:21.

taxpayer and the individual to benefit themselves from the degree

:07:22.:07:24.

course. As a consequence as advantage people are now 43% more

:07:25.:07:29.

likely to go into university than in 2009. And for the last application

:07:30.:07:34.

cycle the entry rate for 18-year-olds from disadvantaged

:07:35.:07:38.

backgrounds is at a record high, and 18.5% in 2016 compared with 13.6% in

:07:39.:07:43.

the last year of the Labour government in 2009. That is what we

:07:44.:07:47.

mean by country of the -- country that works for everyone. It is

:07:48.:07:51.

because of these positive effects that moves towards a low a system

:07:52.:07:56.

have been supported by parties across the house. They were to just

:07:57.:08:01.

a Labour government, extended by a conservative model democrat

:08:02.:08:03.

government and taken on by this Conservative government. Turning to

:08:04.:08:08.

applications financing the midwifery courses the latest data published by

:08:09.:08:13.

UCAS shows a 22% fall in the number of applicants to nursing and

:08:14.:08:16.

midwifery courses in England impaired to the same point in the

:08:17.:08:20.

2016 application cycle. As my noble friend pointed out, in previous

:08:21.:08:26.

cases when fees have been introduced application numbers have gone down

:08:27.:08:32.

but rebranded in future years. The same UCAS data also shows that since

:08:33.:08:36.

January there have been over 3000 additional applicants for nursing

:08:37.:08:39.

and midwifery places, taking the current total to over 40,000

:08:40.:08:44.

applicants for around 23,000 places in England. The chair of the Council

:08:45.:08:51.

of deans for help -- for health has commented on the situation saying

:08:52.:08:55.

that it is to be expected that there would be fewer applications in the

:08:56.:08:58.

first year following the changes but we would expect this to pick up in

:08:59.:09:03.

future years. The chief nursing officer Jane Cummings has said that

:09:04.:09:08.

despite the drop the level applications received suggest that

:09:09.:09:11.

at a national level we are still on track to meet this target in England

:09:12.:09:14.

although we need to monitor this very carefully. We are also

:09:15.:09:17.

introducing a number of opportunities to support future

:09:18.:09:20.

applicants, including additional routes to become a graduate nurse.

:09:21.:09:25.

Based on all the information available, health education England

:09:26.:09:27.

is confident that they will still fill the required number of training

:09:28.:09:34.

places for the NHS in England. Turning to the issues raised around

:09:35.:09:38.

Brexit, future rate is first and support after the UK leaves the EU

:09:39.:09:41.

will need to be considered as part of the wider discussions as to the

:09:42.:09:45.

UK's Croatian ship with the EU, however the government has confirmed

:09:46.:09:52.

that courses starting in 2017-2018 or before will continue to be

:09:53.:09:57.

eligible for funding for the course. Regarding numbers of non-UK nurses,

:09:58.:10:02.

it is correct that the nursing and midwifery Council senior reduction

:10:03.:10:05.

in the number of legislation applications nurses in the European

:10:06.:10:09.

Union. At the moment it is unclear whether the drop is debatable to the

:10:10.:10:12.

introduction of more robust language testing the NMC rather than a result

:10:13.:10:18.

of the decision for the UK to leave the EU. The drop in applications is

:10:19.:10:22.

balanced by a reduction in headphones to professional two

:10:23.:10:24.

meaning that while monthly fundraisers continue the number of

:10:25.:10:30.

EU born nurses is by the same. Indeed there are slightly more

:10:31.:10:34.

nurses from the EU working in NHS trusts and three series that there

:10:35.:10:46.

were in June 20 16. And I ask if you would comment on the fact that the

:10:47.:10:49.

figure you have quoted will be significantly skewed by the

:10:50.:10:52.

immigration and skills charge which comes into being, where for every

:10:53.:10:58.

overseas person of a type two Visa the NHS will have to be ?1000? Does

:10:59.:11:03.

he not think that will have an effect on nursing figures? I will

:11:04.:11:07.

not speculate on the impact of that effect, but what I can say is that

:11:08.:11:10.

despite the scare stories that the numbers will be affected the axe

:11:11.:11:14.

them or EU -based nurses in the last year and that is the point I wish to

:11:15.:11:19.

get across. The real issue at stake is whether the number of staff in

:11:20.:11:22.

NHS is increasing to meet the growing demands on it and hear the

:11:23.:11:25.

government has a strong record. Over the last year the NHS has seen

:11:26.:11:29.

record numbers of staff working within it. The most recent monthly

:11:30.:11:33.

workforce statistics show that since May 2010 there are now over 33,000

:11:34.:11:38.

more professionally qualified full-time equivalent staff in NHS

:11:39.:11:42.

trusts and clinical commissioning groups, including over 4000 more

:11:43.:11:47.

nurses. Health education England's return to practice campaigns have

:11:48.:11:51.

resulted in 2000 nurses ready to enter employment at over 9000 nurses

:11:52.:11:55.

back on the front lines since 2014. There has been a 15% increase in

:11:56.:11:59.

nurse training places is 2015 plus introduction of up to 1000 new

:12:00.:12:03.

apprenticeships and increasing of nursing associate roles. The kind of

:12:04.:12:08.

non-graduate nurse symbols that my noble friend Lord Forsyth pointed

:12:09.:12:13.

out are a crucial part of the mix and these form part of a plan to

:12:14.:12:17.

provide an additional 40,000 domestic were trained nurses for the

:12:18.:12:21.

NHS. These new and additional routes into nursing professions will allow

:12:22.:12:25.

thousands of people from all backgrounds to pursue careers in the

:12:26.:12:29.

health care sectors and critically low NHS employers to grow their own

:12:30.:12:35.

workforce. My Lords, I will end as I began. I believe this motion is

:12:36.:12:41.

misguided. The extension of the one -based system to nursing and

:12:42.:12:44.

midwifery training is a natural development of reforms that have

:12:45.:12:49.

received cross-party support, successfully expanded higher

:12:50.:12:51.

education and dramatically improve the participation of disadvantaged

:12:52.:12:54.

groups and provided a further dissolution of the course of funding

:12:55.:12:58.

higher education. Despite the pessimism of some the decision by

:12:59.:13:02.

the British people to leave the EU which this party respects has not

:13:03.:13:06.

had a material impact on the workforce. Furthermore, paid in part

:13:07.:13:11.

by the resort is freed up by the changes to student finance, this

:13:12.:13:14.

government has put in place a series of programmes that have successfully

:13:15.:13:19.

increased the number of staff in NHS provide more training places than

:13:20.:13:23.

ever. Allowing us to better grow our own workforce among UK residents.

:13:24.:13:28.

The true source of regret is that the opposition has used this

:13:29.:13:31.

opportunity to run scare stories about the impact of sensible funding

:13:32.:13:34.

changes we have made and the impact of leaving the EU on the NHS

:13:35.:13:40.

workforce. I urge all members of this house to vote against the

:13:41.:13:45.

motion. My Lords and Members and very carefully to the noble Lord,

:13:46.:13:51.

the Minister, I wanted to be persuaded. I am not persuaded. I

:13:52.:13:56.

believe that the government had taken a big risk, gambled before in

:13:57.:14:05.

2011, 12 and 13, it may not be known but they were just seen above nurses

:14:06.:14:10.

in training because they thought we had sufficient. And as a result in

:14:11.:14:14.

those three years there were several thousand nurses short trained

:14:15.:14:18.

because the government got the figures wrong. I believe they got

:14:19.:14:23.

the figures wrong again, I think it is a big big risk that we don't need

:14:24.:14:30.

to take, it is unfair on the nurses career but most of all it is unfair

:14:31.:14:35.

to the potential patients in the National Health Service. I want to

:14:36.:14:41.

test the opinion of the house. The question is that this motion be

:14:42.:14:45.

agreed to. As many say content. To the contrary not content. Clear the

:14:46.:14:47.

bar. The question is that this motion be

:14:48.:18:03.

agreed to. As many to that opinion will say content. Content. The

:18:04.:18:09.

contrary, not condemned. Not content. Content will go to the

:18:10.:18:12.

right by the phone, but content to the left.

:18:13.:23:14.

The question is that this motion be agreed to.

:23:15.:25:25.

My Lords, they have voted. Content is 121, not content is 159, so they

:25:26.:25:35.

not content is have it. My Lords, I think it best if we

:25:36.:26:16.

adjourn until 5:15pm to enable the chamber to be adjusted for the

:26:17.:26:22.

ceremony that now follows. Thank you. The question is that the House

:26:23.:26:31.

do now adjourn until 5:15pm. As many of that opinion say content. The not

:26:32.:26:38.

content is.

:26:39.:26:40.

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