Browse content similar to 15/12/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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I, Anthony Peter, do you swear by
Almighty God that I will be faithful | 0:00:16 | 0:00:21 | |
and bear true allegiance to her
Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs | 0:00:21 | 0:00:25 | |
and successors, according to the
law, so help me God. | 0:00:25 | 0:00:37 | |
My Lords, I should like to make it
brief personal statement. Yesterday, | 0:01:23 | 0:01:27 | |
in response to a question asked by
Lord Anderson of Swansea, I drew the | 0:01:27 | 0:01:34 | |
minister's attention to the high
standards of reporting and | 0:01:34 | 0:01:38 | |
transparency required of the
financial services industry, by the | 0:01:38 | 0:01:42 | |
regulatory authorities in the Cayman
Islands. In doing so, I should have | 0:01:42 | 0:01:46 | |
informed the house at the close
family member is a director of the | 0:01:46 | 0:01:50 | |
financial services company domiciled
in the Cayman Islands, and I | 0:01:50 | 0:01:54 | |
apologise unreservedly for this
omission. I am very grateful to the | 0:01:54 | 0:01:58 | |
house by this early opportunity to
correct the record. Second reading | 0:01:58 | 0:02:03 | |
of the Refugees (Family Reunion)
Bill. I beg to move that this Bill | 0:02:03 | 0:02:10 | |
now be read a second time. Our
society recognises the plight of | 0:02:10 | 0:02:16 | |
refugees, and our moral obligations,
as well as giving practical | 0:02:16 | 0:02:20 | |
expression to our humanitarianism.
Our culture recognises the | 0:02:20 | 0:02:25 | |
importance of family. So do most
cultures. This Bill recognises both. | 0:02:25 | 0:02:31 | |
I want first to acknowledge the
government's contribution by way of | 0:02:31 | 0:02:36 | |
funds in the Middle East and
elsewhere. Pursuing provisions in | 0:02:36 | 0:02:40 | |
this Bill is not to deny the
significance of this, nor that the | 0:02:40 | 0:02:45 | |
UK is setting a good example, but it
is not a complete answer. Many | 0:02:45 | 0:02:51 | |
refugees from Syria are still in the
region. The strain on a neighbouring | 0:02:51 | 0:02:55 | |
countries is enormous. Turkey,
Jordan, Lebanon, which is about the | 0:02:55 | 0:03:02 | |
size of Wales and hosts a refugee
population amounting to around 30% | 0:03:02 | 0:03:07 | |
of its total population. And it is
not a signatory to the Refugee | 0:03:07 | 0:03:13 | |
Convention. If they can do so much,
we should do our bit. In 2016, the | 0:03:13 | 0:03:18 | |
UK received 3% of asylum
applications made in the EU. Head of | 0:03:18 | 0:03:26 | |
population, the UK ranked 18th in
the EU, with 0.6 applications per | 0:03:26 | 0:03:32 | |
thousand people. In this same year
globally, 20 people became newly | 0:03:32 | 0:03:36 | |
displaced every minute every day. I
know the government takes a few that | 0:03:36 | 0:03:43 | |
the Bill seeks a little but is not
done already, so I will take its | 0:03:43 | 0:03:47 | |
clause by clause. Clause 1.1
provides that a person with refugee | 0:03:47 | 0:03:53 | |
status or humanitarian protection
may apply for permission for family | 0:03:53 | 0:03:57 | |
members to join him. If I see him,
from time to time, I generally mean | 0:03:57 | 0:04:02 | |
him or her. That is the position in
our current immigration rules, but | 0:04:02 | 0:04:09 | |
they are rules, not primary
legislation, not secondary | 0:04:09 | 0:04:13 | |
legislation, not something that
Parliament can amend or reject. | 0:04:13 | 0:04:20 | |
Rules are an executive instrument
subject to change. The first three | 0:04:20 | 0:04:26 | |
of the groups listed in clause 1.2
can, under the current rules, be | 0:04:26 | 0:04:31 | |
sponsored, but only by adults. The
other people on the other categories | 0:04:31 | 0:04:35 | |
may given leave to enter or remain
in the country by discretion. I | 0:04:35 | 0:04:41 | |
don't think it's unreasonable for
them refugee to have the right to be | 0:04:41 | 0:04:46 | |
joined by family members, and it
could be said that those listed are | 0:04:46 | 0:04:51 | |
distant relatives. Where there is a
discretion, there are bound to be | 0:04:51 | 0:04:57 | |
inconsistencies, if leaders given at
all, of course, about the type of | 0:04:57 | 0:05:02 | |
leave, but the length of stay
granted. Family members may get | 0:05:02 | 0:05:06 | |
different lengths. There may be a
residency criteria for housing. Some | 0:05:06 | 0:05:12 | |
noble Lords when at a meeting last
week in Parliament and Harriet a | 0:05:12 | 0:05:18 | |
teenager, a very mature teenager, a
very tall teenagers as well, tell a | 0:05:18 | 0:05:23 | |
meeting that he had reached the UK
alone. His parents and siblings came | 0:05:23 | 0:05:31 | |
later and separately. And
eventually, they were together, | 0:05:31 | 0:05:34 | |
living together, briefly. He said,
they have been told they have to go | 0:05:34 | 0:05:41 | |
back to Birmingham, because that is
where my mum was sent to live when | 0:05:41 | 0:05:44 | |
she was an asylum seeker, and
because I came as a refugee child on | 0:05:44 | 0:05:48 | |
my own, I have to live in Essex, so
we are still not together. My | 0:05:48 | 0:05:55 | |
brothers and sisters are at school
in London, and my dad is working in | 0:05:55 | 0:05:59 | |
a restaurant. If we had to move to
Birmingham, they would miss out on | 0:05:59 | 0:06:03 | |
schooling once again and my dad
would lose his job and find a new | 0:06:03 | 0:06:07 | |
one, which might not be easy. The
reason we are still separated is | 0:06:07 | 0:06:13 | |
because I could not apply for a
family reunion when I came to | 0:06:13 | 0:06:17 | |
England, and that is the reason I am
still living on my own. Home Office | 0:06:17 | 0:06:24 | |
caseworkers do have guidance, and
they must consider exceptional | 0:06:24 | 0:06:32 | |
circumstances or compassionate
factors. The guidance tells them | 0:06:32 | 0:06:37 | |
that entry clearance or the grant of
leave outside the immigration rules | 0:06:37 | 0:06:40 | |
is likely to be appropriate only
rarely. I heard, for instance, of a | 0:06:40 | 0:06:47 | |
disabled person but the carer who is
a family member, who was allowed | 0:06:47 | 0:06:53 | |
these. Exceptional circumstances is
the term we're used to considering | 0:06:53 | 0:06:56 | |
in various contexts. But often,
these circumstances are in fact the | 0:06:56 | 0:07:02 | |
norm in this situation. One of the
people who may, and I stress, may, | 0:07:02 | 0:07:10 | |
be given leave, is an unmarried
child of rarely seen. The position | 0:07:10 | 0:07:13 | |
of the 19-year-old daughter or son,
alone in a refugee camp, without | 0:07:13 | 0:07:20 | |
family support, is something that
would worry any of us. At the | 0:07:20 | 0:07:25 | |
meeting I referred to, we'll saw
heard from a hugely impressive Young | 0:07:25 | 0:07:31 | |
Ceridian. She spoke no English when
she arrived, but for years on and | 0:07:31 | 0:07:35 | |
very fluent, she is studying
aeronautical engineering. So many of | 0:07:35 | 0:07:41 | |
the young refugees I have met have
been so keen to contribute to | 0:07:41 | 0:07:46 | |
society. Model citizens. Her father
took the initial journey by himself. | 0:07:46 | 0:07:55 | |
She and her mother later joined him
under the current rules. But only | 0:07:55 | 0:08:00 | |
after several attempts to get visas
from the embassy in Beirut, | 0:08:00 | 0:08:05 | |
travelling from northern Syria.
Being held up at the border, | 0:08:05 | 0:08:09 | |
arriving late at the embassy, being
told that as they had missed the | 0:08:09 | 0:08:13 | |
appointment, they couldn't be dealt
with. And that difficult and | 0:08:13 | 0:08:17 | |
dangerous journey in both directions
had to be repeated. She said, there | 0:08:17 | 0:08:21 | |
was no respect at the Embassy. There
was no respect for our papers. | 0:08:21 | 0:08:31 | |
Dangerous journeys to embassies and
consulates to make up your creations | 0:08:31 | 0:08:35 | |
are common story. Travelling through
war zones is not like catching a bus | 0:08:35 | 0:08:38 | |
at the end of the road. Then the
other -- then there are the | 0:08:38 | 0:08:44 | |
unaccompanied children, whose
situation has got the public | 0:08:44 | 0:08:50 | |
imagination. I don't want to teach
humanise them by using the acronym | 0:08:50 | 0:08:59 | |
UASC. That is an implicit acceptance
of the importance of family, though | 0:08:59 | 0:09:08 | |
the need for serious and compelling
considerations would make exclusion | 0:09:08 | 0:09:13 | |
of the child undecidable, seems to
go on the other direction and | 0:09:13 | 0:09:17 | |
suggests exception allergy. But it's
not an alternative to what clause | 0:09:17 | 0:09:22 | |
1.3 of the Bill provides. Among the
other requirements, the tiles can | 0:09:22 | 0:09:29 | |
and will be accommodated, in
accommodation which is relative, | 0:09:29 | 0:09:36 | |
usually in this situation and aunt
or uncle or a sibling. Owns and | 0:09:36 | 0:09:40 | |
occupies exclusively and Siebel be
maintained by the relative without | 0:09:40 | 0:09:45 | |
recourse to public funds. | 0:09:45 | 0:09:52 | |
These are the criteria that cannot
be met by the relative. The child | 0:09:52 | 0:09:57 | |
must hold a valid entry clearance or
leave to remain on the arrival. I | 0:09:57 | 0:10:02 | |
have referred to the documentation.
A fee is payable, a substantial fee. | 0:10:02 | 0:10:08 | |
In a case of child asylum seekers,
we're told by the government, if we | 0:10:08 | 0:10:12 | |
were to allow them to sponsor
parents or other family, this would | 0:10:12 | 0:10:17 | |
that act as a pull factor. They
would be sent here by family. So the | 0:10:17 | 0:10:22 | |
family have a way in. Whether it is
consistently argued this, at the | 0:10:22 | 0:10:28 | |
same time arguing what the bill
would do, as it is already applied. | 0:10:28 | 0:10:32 | |
I would leave aside there are not
push factors. What evidence is there | 0:10:32 | 0:10:38 | |
for this? My noble friend, Baroness
Shearman will say a lot more about | 0:10:38 | 0:10:44 | |
this. Once the child has reached
Europe, the UK may have more of a | 0:10:44 | 0:10:50 | |
pull factor than other countries.
Not invariably so. That is often | 0:10:50 | 0:10:57 | |
called a perverse incentive to send
a car dailly-macro child out of his | 0:10:57 | 0:11:05 | |
country, and quite frankly I do not
buy it. The more the situation we | 0:11:05 | 0:11:10 | |
learn of France, Greece and
elsewhere, we recently debated the | 0:11:10 | 0:11:15 | |
situation postie Calle jungle, and
found disturbing findings by the | 0:11:15 | 0:11:19 | |
refugee rights stated project. The
more manifest is the need for safe | 0:11:19 | 0:11:26 | |
and legal routes to reduce
opportunities for criminals to | 0:11:26 | 0:11:30 | |
exploit and abuse. Without safe and
legal routes, children are destined | 0:11:30 | 0:11:39 | |
for abuse. Giving the right to a
child refugee to have fetched | 0:11:39 | 0:11:46 | |
dailly-macro their family join them
or not the novel. The UN does so, | 0:11:46 | 0:11:54 | |
but we're not a signatory. Ten years
another phrase that noble Lloyds | 0:11:54 | 0:12:01 | |
will be familiar, what is in the
best interest of the child? A child | 0:12:01 | 0:12:06 | |
whose father has been killed in
Afghanistan, whose mother sent away | 0:12:06 | 0:12:09 | |
for protection. A child in need of
protection under the Geneva | 0:12:09 | 0:12:13 | |
Convention, and it is in his
interest to be joined in cared for | 0:12:13 | 0:12:17 | |
by his family this noble Lords may
wonder why I've not mentioned | 0:12:17 | 0:12:24 | |
document three. We are concerned
with the position post-Brexit. That | 0:12:24 | 0:12:28 | |
is a regulation dealing with
arrangements between states, | 0:12:28 | 0:12:33 | |
regarding the transfer of asylum
applications. A related but parallel | 0:12:33 | 0:12:36 | |
issue. I have included the exception
to the rights in clause one if that | 0:12:36 | 0:12:44 | |
would be in the interest of national
security. Applying this also to | 0:12:44 | 0:12:50 | |
Klaus two, concerning British
citizens with family members, who | 0:12:50 | 0:12:54 | |
have protection need. The problem
came to prominence just before the | 0:12:54 | 0:12:57 | |
Calle jungle was broken up. A father
was settled in the UK, his daughter | 0:12:57 | 0:13:03 | |
was in the jungle. He could not meet
the fees and income requirements of | 0:13:03 | 0:13:09 | |
our family Visa rules. He, the
holder of a British passport, went | 0:13:09 | 0:13:15 | |
to live in the jungle to look after
his daughter. Clause three allows | 0:13:15 | 0:13:21 | |
for the Secretary of State to make
regulations, to extend the | 0:13:21 | 0:13:24 | |
definition of family member. And to
find requirements for regulations | 0:13:24 | 0:13:31 | |
for evidencing family membership or
dependency. I have referred to | 0:13:31 | 0:13:38 | |
evidencing, which is not as simple
as ministers ordered during the | 0:13:38 | 0:13:42 | |
passage of the legal late sentencing
and punishing offenders act. During | 0:13:42 | 0:13:46 | |
the bill, ministers said the amount
to keep family reunion cases in | 0:13:46 | 0:13:51 | |
scope would cost £5 million a year.
I'll leave it to noble Lords to take | 0:13:51 | 0:13:57 | |
their own view of that amount.
Documents may not be available, they | 0:13:57 | 0:14:03 | |
may be left behind, they may never
have been provided in the country of | 0:14:03 | 0:14:06 | |
origin. DNA testing would help the
government, they use to fund it, but | 0:14:06 | 0:14:14 | |
no longer. The chief inspector has
welcomed its reinstatement. I | 0:14:14 | 0:14:22 | |
mention going to the embassy and
back a dangerous journey. Centres | 0:14:22 | 0:14:25 | |
have been set up in France, I
understand in conjunction with the | 0:14:25 | 0:14:29 | |
UK, but we hear of difficulties
reaching them and various practical | 0:14:29 | 0:14:33 | |
problems. The last I heard was the
UK had sent over a single official | 0:14:33 | 0:14:37 | |
to assist. I hope that is wrong. My
Lords, in everything I mentioned is | 0:14:37 | 0:14:43 | |
already our law, it is not working
in practice. Hard cases make bad | 0:14:43 | 0:14:47 | |
law. Bad law or no law makes hard
cases. The EU directive on the right | 0:14:47 | 0:14:58 | |
to family rededication states in the
recital that it is a necessary way | 0:14:58 | 0:15:02 | |
of making family life possible. It
helps to create sociocultural | 0:15:02 | 0:15:08 | |
stability, facilitating the
integration of third country | 0:15:08 | 0:15:11 | |
nationals in the state. Which also
serves to promote economic and | 0:15:11 | 0:15:15 | |
social cohesion. My Lords, I agree,
families belong together. I beg to | 0:15:15 | 0:15:21 | |
move. The question is that this
building be now read the second | 0:15:21 | 0:15:28 | |
time. May I congratulate the noble
lady on achieving this debate, with | 0:15:28 | 0:15:34 | |
a very important private members
bill. There are 65 million refugees | 0:15:34 | 0:15:39 | |
in the world. One of the greatest
challenges to all of us, how we | 0:15:39 | 0:15:45 | |
handled the refugee situation. The
majority of them are miles away no | 0:15:45 | 0:15:49 | |
way near the United Kingdom. It is
as well to remember even though the | 0:15:49 | 0:15:54 | |
Syrians, there are about 3 million
in Turkey, and Jordan and Lebanon. | 0:15:54 | 0:15:58 | |
When people say to me while we
worried about child refugees coming | 0:15:58 | 0:16:03 | |
to Britain, such a small number
compared to those in the region | 0:16:03 | 0:16:06 | |
itself. If I can just digress from
the subject of the bill for a | 0:16:06 | 0:16:14 | |
moment. I was in Saint James Church
in Piccadilly, with the vicar | 0:16:14 | 0:16:22 | |
team-macro days ago, they have one
for installation, lovely old church. | 0:16:22 | 0:16:27 | |
From the ceiling, hanging clothes
from refugees who arrived, who had | 0:16:27 | 0:16:36 | |
discarded the clothes. A very
powerful image indeed. Just to show | 0:16:36 | 0:16:41 | |
what it means to be a refugee. One
wonders what has happened to all the | 0:16:41 | 0:16:47 | |
refugees whose clothes hanging up
there on that installation. The | 0:16:47 | 0:16:52 | |
importance of it is public opinion.
I believe firmly we have two key | 0:16:52 | 0:16:57 | |
public opinion on our side if we are
going to do a few mainly be | 0:16:57 | 0:17:01 | |
refugees. I still believe, regarding
refugee children, and refugees as a | 0:17:01 | 0:17:07 | |
whole. Public opinion, if informed
of what is going on. If informed of | 0:17:07 | 0:17:13 | |
the experiences refugees have been
through, public opinion is by and | 0:17:13 | 0:17:17 | |
large on our side. It is important
to bear that in mind, whenever any | 0:17:17 | 0:17:21 | |
of us, and I have been quite a bit
involved talking about refugees, I | 0:17:21 | 0:17:27 | |
say I must bear in mind that opinion
has to be with us and we can be much | 0:17:27 | 0:17:32 | |
more Christian, and humane and do
better things. I believe on this | 0:17:32 | 0:17:36 | |
issue, in the bill, public opinion
is certainly on our side. All we | 0:17:36 | 0:17:41 | |
have to do is explain to the public
what the position is, how | 0:17:41 | 0:17:44 | |
individuals are affected. The public
won't all come around. I have had a | 0:17:44 | 0:17:50 | |
few abusive tweets. On the whole
public opinion is supported. We have | 0:17:50 | 0:17:55 | |
two bear in mind, and every refugee
has gone through a period of | 0:17:55 | 0:17:58 | |
uncertainty. At the least, sometimes
experiences have been terrible. I | 0:17:58 | 0:18:05 | |
was talking to a Syrian boys some
months ago. He told me his father | 0:18:05 | 0:18:09 | |
had been killed virtually in front
of him in either Aleppo or Damascus. | 0:18:09 | 0:18:16 | |
He said he did not know whether rest
his family was. Suppose where the | 0:18:16 | 0:18:20 | |
rest of his family are, they have
escaped from the carnage, suppose | 0:18:20 | 0:18:25 | |
the rest of his family, mother and
possibly siblings are somewhere in | 0:18:25 | 0:18:32 | |
Greece or Turkey. Are we going to
say that this bill should not apply, | 0:18:32 | 0:18:38 | |
these children, the family should
not come and join that one boy | 0:18:38 | 0:18:40 | |
there. Of course we cannot say that
it would be inhumane. It appears to | 0:18:40 | 0:18:48 | |
me, save the very exceptional
circumstances, that is exactly the | 0:18:48 | 0:18:50 | |
position. What the noble lady's
builders seeking to remedy. There | 0:18:50 | 0:18:58 | |
are other certainties. If the child
reaches the age of 18, there is no | 0:18:58 | 0:19:01 | |
assurance they can stay in this
country. That is a key issue. The | 0:19:01 | 0:19:06 | |
main one for many of us is the
separation from family. To be alone, | 0:19:06 | 0:19:10 | |
maybe the child came from a more
often avoid the girl from the only | 0:19:10 | 0:19:18 | |
one who could make it in these
difficult circumstances. Doing the | 0:19:18 | 0:19:21 | |
terrible journey. Is in fact a boy
he may take the risk. He will be | 0:19:21 | 0:19:30 | |
possibly in Dunkirk, Calais,
possibly Greece. Maybe he will get | 0:19:30 | 0:19:33 | |
here. What is he to do if he cannot
be joined by his family? Cannot | 0:19:33 | 0:19:39 | |
think of anything more painful. Of
course for the parody themselves -- | 0:19:39 | 0:19:45 | |
for the family themselves do this it
is out in Greece, Turkey, Jordan, | 0:19:45 | 0:19:50 | |
say we will never be able to join
our son in Britain? Do they make the | 0:19:50 | 0:19:55 | |
journey themselves? The perilous
journey, subject to trafficking. | 0:19:55 | 0:19:59 | |
Terrible dilemma to give a family.
To say, well, you can stay separated | 0:19:59 | 0:20:05 | |
from your child, all you can make
the dangerous journey. I quote the | 0:20:05 | 0:20:13 | |
Home Affairs Select Committee. They
say this very clearly, and I quote, | 0:20:13 | 0:20:17 | |
it seems it was perverse that
children granted refugee status in | 0:20:17 | 0:20:23 | |
the UK are not then allowed to bring
their close family to join them in | 0:20:23 | 0:20:28 | |
the same when adults would be able
to do. The rights of the family | 0:20:28 | 0:20:33 | |
should apply to child refugees just
as it does to adults. Surely that is | 0:20:33 | 0:20:38 | |
the total argument as regards
children? There are other aspects. | 0:20:38 | 0:20:41 | |
This seems to be the main one was
that is it. That is the case. The | 0:20:41 | 0:20:48 | |
government need to be able to
respond to that particular case of | 0:20:48 | 0:20:55 | |
the Home Affairs Select Committee.
We have heard arguments about pull | 0:20:55 | 0:20:58 | |
factors. There are also push
factors. There may be there is the | 0:20:58 | 0:21:04 | |
element of a pull factor. Not much
of one. A humanitarian need to do | 0:21:04 | 0:21:08 | |
something to deal with these
terrible family separations. Of | 0:21:08 | 0:21:15 | |
course we are told they may be
exceptional circumstances. Fine if | 0:21:15 | 0:21:20 | |
the exceptional circumstances can
apply often enough, maybe that is | 0:21:20 | 0:21:23 | |
why. It is still uncertain. Even if
they apply, they don't get the | 0:21:23 | 0:21:28 | |
protection they would be if people
came as of right, to be united with | 0:21:28 | 0:21:34 | |
their family member. Indeed the
government themselves have said, as | 0:21:34 | 0:21:38 | |
the old lady quoted, exceptional
circumstances in these circumstances | 0:21:38 | 0:21:45 | |
must be very rare. The complexity of
the situation is such, that without | 0:21:45 | 0:21:50 | |
legal aid, it is very difficult to
make much progress. That is my mind, | 0:21:50 | 0:21:56 | |
the argument, my lords. The three
provisions do not cover all cases, | 0:21:56 | 0:22:03 | |
only a small number only. In any
case, they only apply when the child | 0:22:03 | 0:22:12 | |
can join the family, not when the
family can during the child. I think | 0:22:12 | 0:22:16 | |
there is a very clear case in favour
of this bill. A clear case, | 0:22:16 | 0:22:20 | |
humanitarian case, I believe it is
put to the British people they would | 0:22:20 | 0:22:24 | |
support it. That is why we should
support the bill. My lords, I rise | 0:22:24 | 0:22:30 | |
to support this bill, and commend my
local friends, for her tenacity and | 0:22:30 | 0:22:37 | |
stamina in trying to improve the lot
of refugees, and asylum seekers. | 0:22:37 | 0:22:42 | |
This bill is just one example of the
work she does in this area, and a | 0:22:42 | 0:22:47 | |
great privilege to follow the noble
Lord has done more than anybody in | 0:22:47 | 0:22:53 | |
this House in this area. My noble
friend talked about the moral | 0:22:53 | 0:22:59 | |
obligations, and our
humanitarianism. Call me cynical, | 0:22:59 | 0:23:04 | |
but after 30 years in the police
service you tend to become a bit | 0:23:04 | 0:23:08 | |
cynical. For me, politics is often
about the number of votes a measure | 0:23:08 | 0:23:13 | |
is likely to win or lose. In terms
of determining whether a government | 0:23:13 | 0:23:17 | |
will support it or not. Some issues,
our desire for political advantage, | 0:23:17 | 0:23:26 | |
it should take second place to our
moral obligations and | 0:23:26 | 0:23:29 | |
humanitarianism. This is one of
them. My lords, it is difficult to | 0:23:29 | 0:23:36 | |
imagine the trauma of being
separated from your family, | 0:23:36 | 0:23:41 | |
children, or parents, for example,
in any circumstances. To know they | 0:23:41 | 0:23:44 | |
are still in the dangerous part of
the world, where they could be | 0:23:44 | 0:23:49 | |
killed or seriously injured. The
ready painful separation could | 0:23:49 | 0:23:54 | |
become permanent that must be even
worse. Imagine having to take the | 0:23:54 | 0:24:00 | |
perilous journey across the
Mediterranean, across Europe. | 0:24:00 | 0:24:03 | |
Eventually seeking asylum in a
foreign country far from home, where | 0:24:03 | 0:24:07 | |
you may be unable to communicate,
where you feel hostility from a | 0:24:07 | 0:24:13 | |
government who expresses the wish to
make the UK a hostile place for | 0:24:13 | 0:24:17 | |
illegal immigrants. And then to be
given little or no hope of ever | 0:24:17 | 0:24:22 | |
seeing your family again. My lords,
some of us, apart from perhaps the | 0:24:22 | 0:24:31 | |
noble Lords amongst us who are
lawyers, would hesitate to engage in | 0:24:31 | 0:24:35 | |
any form of legal process engaging a
court or tribunal without legal | 0:24:35 | 0:24:41 | |
representation, even in this
country. Imagine being in a foreign | 0:24:41 | 0:24:46 | |
country, where you have no knowledge
of the country's legal processes, | 0:24:46 | 0:24:50 | |
cannot speak the language, and
cannot afford to employ a legal | 0:24:50 | 0:24:54 | |
representative. What chance would
any of us have of navigating the | 0:24:54 | 0:24:59 | |
legal processes, to try to be
reunited with our family | 0:24:59 | 0:25:07 | |
Now imagine that all these scenarios
are happening at the same time. | 0:25:07 | 0:25:12 | |
Separated from your family,
traumatised by the danger she fled | 0:25:12 | 0:25:15 | |
from, that your family still faces,
still traumatised from the perilous | 0:25:15 | 0:25:20 | |
journey you've taken, arriving in a
hostile foreign country and these | 0:25:20 | 0:25:24 | |
are the legal process you have no
understanding of and no help of | 0:25:24 | 0:25:27 | |
engaging. My Lords, if that were not
bad enough for an adult to cope | 0:25:27 | 0:25:34 | |
with, as we have heard,
unaccompanied asylum seeking | 0:25:34 | 0:25:38 | |
children have no recourse to bring
their parents or family members to | 0:25:38 | 0:25:42 | |
join them, unless there are
exceptional circumstances. And out | 0:25:42 | 0:25:47 | |
of the 28 European Union countries,
only Denmark and the United Kingdom | 0:25:47 | 0:25:53 | |
did not allowed applications for
reunification from asylum seeking | 0:25:53 | 0:25:55 | |
children. Some claim -- something
the home affairs select committee | 0:25:55 | 0:26:06 | |
described as perverse. Talking of
perversity, it is only while someone | 0:26:06 | 0:26:09 | |
is a refugee that they are able to
bring other family members to the | 0:26:09 | 0:26:14 | |
UK, without having to have
sufficiently high income to qualify, | 0:26:14 | 0:26:18 | |
to bring their family members to the
UK. If a refugee does everything | 0:26:18 | 0:26:24 | |
this country asks of him or her and
is granted British citizenship, he | 0:26:24 | 0:26:28 | |
is then prohibited from bringing his
spies to the UK, and lest he reaches | 0:26:28 | 0:26:34 | |
the income threshold. If he were to
string out his asylum application, | 0:26:34 | 0:26:40 | |
he would not have to earn such a
high salary in order to achieve that | 0:26:40 | 0:26:43 | |
end. This Bill addresses all of
these issues. It allows | 0:26:43 | 0:26:51 | |
unaccompanied refugee children to
sponsor their family members to join | 0:26:51 | 0:26:54 | |
them, it allows former refugees the
right to sponsor family members | 0:26:54 | 0:26:59 | |
asylum seekers under the refugee
reunion rules. It reintroduces legal | 0:26:59 | 0:27:05 | |
aid for a refugee family reunion
cases. What does the government, | 0:27:05 | 0:27:13 | |
what are the government's
objections? In the 2017 Conservative | 0:27:13 | 0:27:19 | |
Party manifesto, on page 65, it
topped sub out, and I quote, | 0:27:19 | 0:27:26 | |
solidarity is a conservative
principle, growing out of family, | 0:27:26 | 0:27:30 | |
community and nation. All things
Conservatives believe in and work to | 0:27:30 | 0:27:33 | |
conserve. If the government truly
bereaved in family, truly worked to | 0:27:33 | 0:27:40 | |
conserve the family, it would
support this Bill. As the noble Lord | 0:27:40 | 0:27:46 | |
has said, we're not talking about
large numbers here. I support this | 0:27:46 | 0:27:50 | |
Bill and I would ask the whole house
and the government to support it as | 0:27:50 | 0:27:54 | |
well. I had the great privilege and
good fortune, that when I decided to | 0:27:54 | 0:28:05 | |
return to the UK, to marry my
husband, he was of New Zealand | 0:28:05 | 0:28:12 | |
extraction of British parents, I did
not have to prove that I had an | 0:28:12 | 0:28:22 | |
income, the reason I was allowed to
come here was that I had spent the | 0:28:22 | 0:28:26 | |
largest part of my life as a student
in this country. And it was accepted | 0:28:26 | 0:28:31 | |
that I could come back and live
here, and therefore when I married | 0:28:31 | 0:28:34 | |
my husband, he was invited to take a
passport. It seems to me that | 0:28:34 | 0:28:44 | |
assumptions are made about the
dependence and the families of the | 0:28:44 | 0:28:50 | |
immigrant, being needy, being in
need of resources. They are perhaps | 0:28:50 | 0:28:56 | |
worth considering in some detail.
First and foremost, I would content | 0:28:56 | 0:29:02 | |
that it is only the brightest and
the best and the most enterprising | 0:29:02 | 0:29:07 | |
who ever decide to move, because the
logistics of getting oneself from A | 0:29:07 | 0:29:15 | |
to B, particularly if there are
concerns of family, does really | 0:29:15 | 0:29:22 | |
require good tactics, good
knowledge, good diplomacy, all | 0:29:22 | 0:29:25 | |
levels of dealing with all kinds of
officialdom across the border. Also, | 0:29:25 | 0:29:36 | |
I would suggest that once such
refugees arrive here, they have so | 0:29:36 | 0:29:41 | |
much to give. As I said, both my
brother and myself, here the USA and | 0:29:41 | 0:29:49 | |
I in England, decided to stay in the
countries had studied. Therefore, | 0:29:49 | 0:29:56 | |
after the Iranians revolution, we
were both in a position to ask our | 0:29:56 | 0:29:59 | |
families to come and join us. I
don't remember that the time there | 0:29:59 | 0:30:06 | |
being any problem about as
demanding, requiring our families. | 0:30:06 | 0:30:09 | |
As it happened, one of my brothers
did go to the USA, and my father | 0:30:09 | 0:30:16 | |
decided to go to France. In France,
my father was instrumental in | 0:30:16 | 0:30:26 | |
setting up eight Law faculty in
Strasbourg, which made very good | 0:30:26 | 0:30:30 | |
money for the French government,
because a lot of students wanted to | 0:30:30 | 0:30:33 | |
go there and live there. My brother
had a research institute in the USA. | 0:30:33 | 0:30:42 | |
As my youngest brother who went
there as a hedge fund. And the | 0:30:42 | 0:30:48 | |
Yankees, who stayed in France, owns
his own research unit as well. I | 0:30:48 | 0:30:54 | |
would say there is a wealth of good
information about immigration and | 0:30:54 | 0:31:01 | |
immigrants bring, even if they go as
dependents. In addition, once | 0:31:01 | 0:31:11 | |
immigrants are here, the moral
economy of care and dictates to all | 0:31:11 | 0:31:18 | |
of us that we protect our own
therefore when immigrants arrive, | 0:31:18 | 0:31:24 | |
once they have any connections, beat
children or relatives are distant | 0:31:24 | 0:31:33 | |
relatives, we see it as our duty to
care for our own. And if you go to | 0:31:33 | 0:31:39 | |
somewhere like Bradford, you see how
rewarding matters. Not only I think | 0:31:39 | 0:31:44 | |
that immigrants have contributed
considerably to the food industry in | 0:31:44 | 0:31:50 | |
Britain and the palates of the
British, but I also would suggest | 0:31:50 | 0:31:53 | |
that they bring a whole variety of
perspectives and outlooks, which are | 0:31:53 | 0:32:00 | |
different. And what we need to do in
this world is to celebrate | 0:32:00 | 0:32:05 | |
differences. Differences are
enriching, different ways of doing | 0:32:05 | 0:32:09 | |
things help us to see better, to
have wider dimensions. My Lords, it | 0:32:09 | 0:32:15 | |
is beneficial to us all to celebrate
differences. And I think that we can | 0:32:15 | 0:32:22 | |
rely on the moral economy of care
and to be sure that those who arrive | 0:32:22 | 0:32:29 | |
to join their families would not be
a burden to the economy furlong. I | 0:32:29 | 0:32:37 | |
congratulate my noble friend for
bringing forward this short Bill. | 0:32:37 | 0:32:42 | |
There are three reasons why I stand
to support higher and to support the | 0:32:42 | 0:32:46 | |
Bill. The first is that I remember
when I was growing up, one of the | 0:32:46 | 0:32:52 | |
many senses of pride that I have in
our country was that I was aware | 0:32:52 | 0:32:57 | |
that people had come as refugees,
particularly during and after the | 0:32:57 | 0:33:01 | |
Second World War. They had been
welcomed into our country, they have | 0:33:01 | 0:33:09 | |
made great contributions to the
country. That does all positive, but | 0:33:09 | 0:33:12 | |
it was the sense that this was a
welcoming country. A country that | 0:33:12 | 0:33:17 | |
people from other parts of the world
could look to as a place of safety, | 0:33:17 | 0:33:22 | |
a place that would nourish them and
care for them. And that we as a | 0:33:22 | 0:33:28 | |
people were doing something good and
right by providing that kind of | 0:33:28 | 0:33:34 | |
national home. It seems to me that
we have particularly in recent | 0:33:34 | 0:33:39 | |
years, and for understandable
pressures, we have changed the | 0:33:39 | 0:33:45 | |
attitude. We are pulling up the
drawbridge, and instead of being a | 0:33:45 | 0:33:50 | |
welcoming and open place, that has a
reputation for being welcoming, we | 0:33:50 | 0:33:56 | |
are seen as a place that is hard to
get to and that when you do arrive, | 0:33:56 | 0:34:01 | |
you are no longer welcome. I don't
advocate in any way, the kind of | 0:34:01 | 0:34:09 | |
open doors that Angela Merkel
embarked upon, Warmley, but it'll | 0:34:09 | 0:34:17 | |
advisedly, because it had adverse
affects in and also surveys. But I | 0:34:17 | 0:34:24 | |
do feel that our country is being
infected by this turning away from | 0:34:24 | 0:34:28 | |
the other and turning into
ourselves, and losing its reputation | 0:34:28 | 0:34:33 | |
and something of its soul. And
that's the first reason that I | 0:34:33 | 0:34:37 | |
support this Bill, because it is the
sign, it's a symbol, is an | 0:34:37 | 0:34:42 | |
indication that there is a spirit in
this country which is open and | 0:34:42 | 0:34:46 | |
welcoming to those who need a place
to come for safety. The second thing | 0:34:46 | 0:34:53 | |
is the practical expedient that I
have had over a number of years, of | 0:34:53 | 0:34:56 | |
the splitting up of marriages,
because one partner was able to live | 0:34:56 | 0:35:01 | |
here, and the other could not. Of
course, people have said, if they | 0:35:01 | 0:35:07 | |
really want to live together, the
partner who has the right to live | 0:35:07 | 0:35:10 | |
here, should go elsewhere. Easily
said. The most recent example, a | 0:35:10 | 0:35:16 | |
bright, capable young woman, given
recently a contract for a book she | 0:35:16 | 0:35:21 | |
has written, by Penguin. She's a
British citizen and saw her parents. | 0:35:21 | 0:35:25 | |
She lives here, but she married a
young man some years ago, and he | 0:35:25 | 0:35:32 | |
cannot come here, for a whole series
of reasons, to do with our | 0:35:32 | 0:35:36 | |
regulations and rules. And so she
has done that, she has gone to live | 0:35:36 | 0:35:40 | |
with him. Every time she has gone,
she has fallen seriously ill and | 0:35:40 | 0:35:47 | |
ended up in hospital. She tried
again and again, he tried again and | 0:35:47 | 0:35:51 | |
again. They were unable to get
access for him. And so again, she | 0:35:51 | 0:35:56 | |
did the same thing. She went back
out there. I just got an e-mail from | 0:35:56 | 0:36:01 | |
her to say she was back in hospital
and she hadn't been in touch with me | 0:36:01 | 0:36:05 | |
because she nearly died last week
with typhoid malaria. My Lords, the | 0:36:05 | 0:36:12 | |
truth of the human stories of the
splitting up of marriages and | 0:36:12 | 0:36:17 | |
relationships is a serious one and
it is one that we need to regard | 0:36:17 | 0:36:21 | |
with due care. But the third, my
Lords, and the one which moves me | 0:36:21 | 0:36:28 | |
most, is a situation of the
children. One of the things that I | 0:36:28 | 0:36:36 | |
do is run a little group to provide
supervision, advice and guidance for | 0:36:36 | 0:36:44 | |
younger people, alone, increasingly
everyone seems young to me, young | 0:36:44 | 0:36:47 | |
people working for NGOs and the
Foreign Office and other | 0:36:47 | 0:36:51 | |
organisations where they are
experiencing situations of conflict. | 0:36:51 | 0:36:54 | |
And they are wondering how to manage
and how to cope emotionally and how | 0:36:54 | 0:36:59 | |
to understand the dynamics of what
is happening. One of the members of | 0:36:59 | 0:37:04 | |
the group you came along for a time
was a young Syrian lawyer, who had | 0:37:04 | 0:37:10 | |
spent much of her life working in
the Middle East by the UN High | 0:37:10 | 0:37:16 | |
Commission on Refugees. Of course,
when the situation arose in Greece, | 0:37:16 | 0:37:23 | |
the UN called upon her to see, can
you come, we need everybody we can. | 0:37:23 | 0:37:29 | |
She went out to Lesbos and every
couple of days, I would get | 0:37:29 | 0:37:33 | |
photographs and e-mails of what was
happening there. But after that, the | 0:37:33 | 0:37:37 | |
situation got worse. As the news got
less for us, the news got worse for | 0:37:37 | 0:37:43 | |
them. First of all, she was asked to
come to Athens to work with Greek | 0:37:43 | 0:37:48 | |
children, because there were so many
refugee children no increase at the | 0:37:48 | 0:37:53 | |
service is good not cope, not only
with the incomers, but with Greek | 0:37:53 | 0:37:57 | |
children. Everything was beginning
to break down in another EU country. | 0:37:57 | 0:38:05 | |
We have a responsibility to those
children as EU citizens, as well as | 0:38:05 | 0:38:09 | |
to those who come in. And then she
began to tell me about the hundreds, | 0:38:09 | 0:38:14 | |
indeed thousands of children who are
on the road and two are being used | 0:38:14 | 0:38:20 | |
and abused must inevitably so. It is
almost impossible for them to find a | 0:38:20 | 0:38:28 | |
way of surviving without ending up
in the hands either of organised | 0:38:28 | 0:38:34 | |
crime or disorganised crime. When I
hear people saying, we don't want to | 0:38:34 | 0:38:40 | |
go down this road, because it will
only encourage people to come, I | 0:38:40 | 0:38:48 | |
understand that concern. But the
fact is, they are already coming, | 0:38:48 | 0:38:51 | |
they already have come. And what we
do if we do not provide the | 0:38:51 | 0:38:56 | |
opportunity for them to live in a
family circumstance, is make sure | 0:38:56 | 0:39:01 | |
that they are built into the life of
crime. We are making it impossible | 0:39:01 | 0:39:07 | |
for them to draw up in normal
families of their own. As a | 0:39:07 | 0:39:13 | |
psychiatrist, I am not naive about
families. They are not always | 0:39:13 | 0:39:17 | |
perfect, but they are a lot better
than the reality of the experience | 0:39:17 | 0:39:21 | |
of these junk people who are already
in our country and in our continent. | 0:39:21 | 0:39:26 | |
And we should not allow ourselves to
be pushed away from attending to | 0:39:26 | 0:39:31 | |
that, with the notion that by
passing a piece of legislation, we | 0:39:31 | 0:39:36 | |
are opening the doors. We're not.
We're setting down the rules, but we | 0:39:36 | 0:39:40 | |
are trying to make sure that those
children who are already here are | 0:39:40 | 0:39:45 | |
not condemned to a life of crime,
because it was the only way they | 0:39:45 | 0:39:48 | |
could survive. That is the
responsibility that this Bill is | 0:39:48 | 0:39:54 | |
trying to address and that is why I
give it my full support. | 0:39:54 | 0:40:05 | |
I am delighted this is a debate
about families, which is an apt | 0:40:05 | 0:40:10 | |
topic as Christmas approaches. I am
not speaking of the Nathan Dilly | 0:40:10 | 0:40:22 | |
nostalgic image of the nuclear
family around the table. -- I am not | 0:40:22 | 0:40:29 | |
speaking about the nostalgic image.
I'm speaking about family, our | 0:40:29 | 0:40:34 | |
country has for so long emphasised
the family as perhaps the key | 0:40:34 | 0:40:38 | |
building block of society. At the
present time we seek urgently, for | 0:40:38 | 0:40:46 | |
social integration, society where
shared values and shared culture | 0:40:46 | 0:40:50 | |
find bind us all into a ethos of
mutual dependency. We can only to a | 0:40:50 | 0:41:08 | |
limited extent educate for this. We
have two builder. We have two | 0:41:08 | 0:41:15 | |
undermine the divisive ideology of
individualism by growing networks at | 0:41:15 | 0:41:19 | |
every level of social reality. About
the most effective growing medium | 0:41:19 | 0:41:25 | |
for this is the age-old one of
kinship. That is the family. My | 0:41:25 | 0:41:32 | |
lords, I have a particular interest
in health policy, in which I speak | 0:41:32 | 0:41:36 | |
for the Church of England. Time and
again I see how utterly vital family | 0:41:36 | 0:41:42 | |
supporters for health, both mental
and physical. How loneliness, for | 0:41:42 | 0:41:49 | |
instance, has certain negative
impacts, which have been the focus | 0:41:49 | 0:41:51 | |
of some very welcome attention
during the last year. Into this | 0:41:51 | 0:41:56 | |
scene comes the reality of refugees,
as we have been hearing. Just as the | 0:41:56 | 0:42:01 | |
holy family where refugees of the
first Christmas. Not the least | 0:42:01 | 0:42:08 | |
tragic of the consequences of war,
persecution and civil unrest around | 0:42:08 | 0:42:13 | |
the world, is the tearing apart of
families. Of children from their | 0:42:13 | 0:42:18 | |
parents, family groups from whom
interdependence is an essential | 0:42:18 | 0:42:25 | |
resource. As they strive for
resilience in the face of dreadful | 0:42:25 | 0:42:29 | |
events and such severe dangers.
People arrive in this country and in | 0:42:29 | 0:42:34 | |
Europe, perhaps coming to the
attention of the UNHCR in a conflict | 0:42:34 | 0:42:39 | |
region. A child may be adrift in a
place where he or she is easy prey | 0:42:39 | 0:42:46 | |
for traffickers. Parents may be
worried sick about their child, | 0:42:46 | 0:42:51 | |
whether under 18 or not. The exact
configuration and mutual support | 0:42:51 | 0:42:57 | |
will vary from family to family, it
isn't just a matter of parents and | 0:42:57 | 0:43:01 | |
their children. My lords, it is very
apparent, not just in the season of | 0:43:01 | 0:43:10 | |
goodwill, that British people are
desperately concerned for those | 0:43:10 | 0:43:14 | |
driven from their homes, and divided
from their families. As we heard | 0:43:14 | 0:43:20 | |
from the noble Lord. Of course,
questions about pull factors, the | 0:43:20 | 0:43:28 | |
possibility of the abuse of the
system are valid, we all understand. | 0:43:28 | 0:43:33 | |
To let them drive the direction of
policy is to let the exception | 0:43:33 | 0:43:37 | |
dictate the rule. And run the risk
of driving desperate invulnerable | 0:43:37 | 0:43:44 | |
refugees into the unscrupulous hands
of criminals. Others have a greater | 0:43:44 | 0:43:51 | |
grasp of the detail of all of this
than I do. The barriers which we are | 0:43:51 | 0:43:57 | |
currently putting up to the reunion
of refugee families seem to me to be | 0:43:57 | 0:44:02 | |
disproportionate to the benefits
which could come from individuals, | 0:44:02 | 0:44:08 | |
and for families, and for
communities as we seek to strengthen | 0:44:08 | 0:44:12 | |
family life. A theme, incidentally,
which featured strongly in all three | 0:44:12 | 0:44:19 | |
of the debates in your lordship's
House yesterday on vulnerable | 0:44:19 | 0:44:25 | |
children and poverty in the right to
justice. If stringent checks are | 0:44:25 | 0:44:31 | |
needed, let us not use that as a
means of introducing friction into | 0:44:31 | 0:44:35 | |
the system, and dissuading people
from trying to do the right thing | 0:44:35 | 0:44:40 | |
for their family. Rather, let us
provide information, the support, | 0:44:40 | 0:44:47 | |
and hopefully the legal aid, which
will help them to navigate the | 0:44:47 | 0:44:54 | |
system. Also, my lords, because
every family and every situation are | 0:44:54 | 0:44:58 | |
different, let us not draw the rules
so tightly that truly deserving | 0:44:58 | 0:45:04 | |
families are disqualified from
consideration without any attention | 0:45:04 | 0:45:09 | |
to natural justice. For example, it
is often not fair that relatives | 0:45:09 | 0:45:17 | |
under 18 at the time of application
is disqualified because he or she | 0:45:17 | 0:45:23 | |
reaches their 18th birthday during a
long, drawn-out application process. | 0:45:23 | 0:45:32 | |
Where we rightly build into our
rules discretion for their | 0:45:32 | 0:45:36 | |
interpretation with some flexibility
to allow for special circumstances, | 0:45:36 | 0:45:40 | |
perhaps we can train and support
officials to use that discretion to | 0:45:40 | 0:45:46 | |
make exceptions not grudgingly, but
with an eye towards fairness. My | 0:45:46 | 0:45:53 | |
lords, although I began with a
reference to the Christmas season. | 0:45:53 | 0:46:00 | |
This is not just something for the
season of goodwill. It is a matter | 0:46:00 | 0:46:09 | |
of our national identity. As a
hospitable nation, which strongly | 0:46:09 | 0:46:15 | |
believes in the values of family.
This bill is a natural car really of | 0:46:15 | 0:46:24 | |
those values and I supported holy. I
add my voice to that noble Lord, and | 0:46:24 | 0:46:32 | |
it is a pleasure to follow the right
reverend, I agree with everything he | 0:46:32 | 0:46:36 | |
has said and everything that has
been said in support of this bill. I | 0:46:36 | 0:46:40 | |
have added my name to speak not
through any specialist knowledge, | 0:46:40 | 0:46:44 | |
but because it is such a good cause,
it is both morally right and humane | 0:46:44 | 0:46:49 | |
to allow refugee families to be
United. If one needed economic | 0:46:49 | 0:46:54 | |
arguments, it is a case that refugee
families who have the comfort and | 0:46:54 | 0:46:59 | |
strength of being together a much
better able to look for | 0:46:59 | 0:47:03 | |
opportunities to be part of and
contribute to the country which has | 0:47:03 | 0:47:06 | |
given them refuge. It is humanity
rather than economy which drives | 0:47:06 | 0:47:11 | |
this bill. My decision to add a
brief word was reinforced by having | 0:47:11 | 0:47:15 | |
the privilege of attending a
Parliamentary briefing to which my | 0:47:15 | 0:47:20 | |
noble friend Baroness Hanham Way has
referred, two Syrian refugees shared | 0:47:20 | 0:47:27 | |
their experiences of traumatic
journey to the United Kingdom. | 0:47:27 | 0:47:31 | |
Determination to seek refuge, and a
deep desire to live as a family. It | 0:47:31 | 0:47:36 | |
was humbling to hear two young
people who had to face terrible | 0:47:36 | 0:47:41 | |
challenges, but came through ideals
to speak with clarity and conviction | 0:47:41 | 0:47:45 | |
about measures which would help them
and others like them. As mine noble | 0:47:45 | 0:47:50 | |
friend has said we used to be an
open and welcoming country to those | 0:47:50 | 0:47:54 | |
in need of sanctuary. We have
benefited immensely from the skills | 0:47:54 | 0:47:58 | |
and dedication of people who came to
us in that way. Some of our current | 0:47:58 | 0:48:04 | |
regulations make us less welcoming.
This bill seeks to cut through the | 0:48:04 | 0:48:10 | |
cost and complexity of reuniting
families, and helping us once again | 0:48:10 | 0:48:14 | |
to show we care about those fleeing
persecution. The noble Lord has | 0:48:14 | 0:48:20 | |
already quoted from the Home Affairs
Select Committee. I would repeat | 0:48:20 | 0:48:24 | |
what they said. The right to live
safely with family should apply to | 0:48:24 | 0:48:28 | |
child refugees, just as it does to
adults. The changes proposed by this | 0:48:28 | 0:48:33 | |
bill would only affect a small
number of refugees. It would have an | 0:48:33 | 0:48:38 | |
immense effect on their lives and
prospects. Others have set out | 0:48:38 | 0:48:43 | |
further reasons why this bill is
timely and necessary. As a wealthy | 0:48:43 | 0:48:48 | |
country, we have a duty to care to
those who have little or nothing. | 0:48:48 | 0:48:53 | |
Bringing families together is a
measure we should be taking to give | 0:48:53 | 0:48:57 | |
them hope and a brighter future. I
do hope the government will look | 0:48:57 | 0:49:01 | |
favourably on the measures here, I
appreciate the bill's intentions. | 0:49:01 | 0:49:06 | |
And the beneficial effect it could
have on young people in great need, | 0:49:06 | 0:49:10 | |
and will be able to added support. I
look forward to the Ministerreply. | 0:49:10 | 0:49:17 | |
My lords, I am very pleased to rise
in support of my noble friend 's' | 0:49:17 | 0:49:25 | |
bill. And in agreement with
everything that has been said so | 0:49:25 | 0:49:28 | |
far. -- my noble friend's bill. I
want to support the bill on the | 0:49:28 | 0:49:35 | |
basis of certain principles. Firstly
continuity and can variability with | 0:49:35 | 0:49:39 | |
Alec existing EU responsibilities.
Secondly humanity. Thirdly | 0:49:39 | 0:49:45 | |
rationality. -- continuity and
compatibility. Firstly continuity | 0:49:45 | 0:49:56 | |
with EU law in unbearable
situations. Requiring examination | 0:49:56 | 0:50:00 | |
family reunion. The free movement
directive, on all our lips these | 0:50:00 | 0:50:06 | |
days. Referring to the spouse,
registered partner, direct | 0:50:06 | 0:50:13 | |
descendants, U21, or dependent,
dependent of direct relatives in the | 0:50:13 | 0:50:20 | |
ascending line. This is reflected on
the citizens rights provision of the | 0:50:20 | 0:50:25 | |
divorce agreement. Reached last
Friday, and hopefully endorsed by | 0:50:25 | 0:50:31 | |
the European Council. Today, my
noble friend, referred to the Dublin | 0:50:31 | 0:50:39 | |
regulation, known as Dublin three,
shortly to become Dublin four. A | 0:50:39 | 0:50:44 | |
different situation, it is about
grouping a family for the | 0:50:44 | 0:50:50 | |
examination of applications. It is a
parallel situation. That puts great | 0:50:50 | 0:51:00 | |
stress on the best interests of the
child, being a primary | 0:51:00 | 0:51:04 | |
consideration. Stressing how
children should not be separated on | 0:51:04 | 0:51:10 | |
family members. Member states even
have an obligation to trace family | 0:51:10 | 0:51:17 | |
members, including siblings and
other relatives. Bringing asylum | 0:51:17 | 0:51:25 | |
applications together. In the other
place, a Conservative member, Tim | 0:51:25 | 0:51:31 | |
Lowton, sort, with cross-party
support from Tim Farron and even | 0:51:31 | 0:51:35 | |
keeper to persuade the government to
continue if we Brexit, the essence | 0:51:35 | 0:51:40 | |
of the Dublin regulation. Which, as
he said, allows asylum seeking | 0:51:40 | 0:51:44 | |
children to be reunited with adult
siblings, grandparents, aunts and | 0:51:44 | 0:51:48 | |
uncles, as well as parents. He
highlighted our four children you | 0:51:48 | 0:51:54 | |
lost their parents, the last
vestiges of family connection were | 0:51:54 | 0:51:59 | |
with siblings, aunts and uncles. The
only available bit of stability and | 0:51:59 | 0:52:05 | |
continuity with their previous
existence in places like Syria. The | 0:52:05 | 0:52:14 | |
family reunification directive,
which the government did not opt | 0:52:14 | 0:52:20 | |
into in 2003, also has a much wider
definition than we have in the | 0:52:20 | 0:52:24 | |
immigration laws of family
rededication. It is noteworthy, | 0:52:24 | 0:52:29 | |
although Ireland not opt in to the
Director, it says enshrines the | 0:52:29 | 0:52:35 | |
right for unaccompanied refugees to
act as sponsors for family | 0:52:35 | 0:52:40 | |
reunification in their own domestic
law. My second principle is | 0:52:40 | 0:52:44 | |
humanity. One are the guiding
principles of the regulation of the | 0:52:44 | 0:52:49 | |
Dublin regulation I mentioned, is
that when the applicant is an | 0:52:49 | 0:52:55 | |
unaccompanied Minor, the presence of
a family member or relative in a | 0:52:55 | 0:53:01 | |
member state, who can take care of
him and hers should be a binding | 0:53:01 | 0:53:05 | |
responsibility criteria. That is how
important that is she all family | 0:53:05 | 0:53:12 | |
support is taken. In assessing the
best interests, the child member | 0:53:12 | 0:53:20 | |
states will take into account the
family rededication possibilities, | 0:53:20 | 0:53:25 | |
the minor's well-being and social
development. The safety and | 0:53:25 | 0:53:31 | |
security, in particular, where there
is a risk of the minor being a risk | 0:53:31 | 0:53:35 | |
of human trafficking. It also
mentions the views of a minor should | 0:53:35 | 0:53:39 | |
be taken into account. The 2000 free
movement directive cites as an | 0:53:39 | 0:53:49 | |
inspiration to the ferry reunion
qualifications, the right to freedom | 0:53:49 | 0:53:55 | |
and dignity. Not just of
administrative issue, they talk | 0:53:55 | 0:53:59 | |
about maintaining the unity of the
family in a broader sense. My noble | 0:53:59 | 0:54:04 | |
friend, referring to our moral
obligations, the recognition of the | 0:54:04 | 0:54:09 | |
importance of family in our culture,
really place dilly mecca places that | 0:54:09 | 0:54:15 | |
centre stage. It has begun a cliche
that politicians of a certain | 0:54:15 | 0:54:19 | |
persuasion, often of the party
governing invoke family values, my | 0:54:19 | 0:54:26 | |
friend and Lord had excited the
Conservative Party manifesto. It is | 0:54:26 | 0:54:29 | |
a time | 0:54:29 | 0:54:36 | |
My third principle is rationality.
It makes sense, on the grounds of | 0:54:36 | 0:54:41 | |
public policy, being reunited with
close family is the way to ensure | 0:54:41 | 0:54:47 | |
welfare and safety of child refugees
and improves their chances of | 0:54:47 | 0:54:51 | |
integration and recovery.
Integration promotes economic and | 0:54:51 | 0:54:58 | |
social cohesion, as my noble friend
mentioned. The splitting up of | 0:54:58 | 0:55:06 | |
families and relationships is costly
for our society and our economy, if | 0:55:06 | 0:55:11 | |
we are going to that level, as well
as being terribly costly for the | 0:55:11 | 0:55:17 | |
people concerned. There was an
article in the D'Argent newspaper | 0:55:17 | 0:55:25 | |
last week about a young man, a
teenager from Afghanistan. His | 0:55:25 | 0:55:32 | |
asylum application was initially
refused, because it was not believed | 0:55:32 | 0:55:35 | |
he was under the teen or he was from
Afghanistan. Anyway, he won his | 0:55:35 | 0:55:40 | |
appeal, but he still has no contact
with his mother or two brothers. He | 0:55:40 | 0:55:45 | |
is trying to get to college, but how
much better he would thrive in our | 0:55:45 | 0:55:50 | |
society and contribute in the way
honourable members, noble Lords, | 0:55:50 | 0:55:59 | |
have mentioned, as indeed the noble
lady barrenness. The contribution | 0:55:59 | 0:56:06 | |
and the resourcefulness that
refugees contribute to ours. So | 0:56:06 | 0:56:15 | |
there was updated guidance from the
Home Office in 2016, but it is, as | 0:56:15 | 0:56:22 | |
my noble friend mentioned, such
cases of discretion will be rare, | 0:56:22 | 0:56:26 | |
and without legal aid, making an
application outside the rules is | 0:56:26 | 0:56:31 | |
very difficult, due to the complex
rules. My Lords, separation of | 0:56:31 | 0:56:42 | |
families can have a devastating
impact on people's lives, their | 0:56:42 | 0:56:47 | |
rehabilitation and their ability to
integrate and adapts to our country. | 0:56:47 | 0:56:56 | |
And the bureaucratic hurdles and the
report from the home affairs | 0:56:56 | 0:57:01 | |
committee in the other place has
already been mentioned, stresses the | 0:57:01 | 0:57:04 | |
bureaucratic difficulty of the
sponsorship and Visa system at the | 0:57:04 | 0:57:13 | |
moment. The government should be
doing all they can to help people in | 0:57:13 | 0:57:20 | |
these circumstances, not hindering
their chance to reach safety. It | 0:57:20 | 0:57:24 | |
also recommended the government
should amend the immigration bill to | 0:57:24 | 0:57:27 | |
allow refugee children to act as
sponsors for the close families. On | 0:57:27 | 0:57:32 | |
the grounds of all those principles,
but including the last one, it makes | 0:57:32 | 0:57:38 | |
no sense, and it is as costly in
social and economic terms for us to | 0:57:38 | 0:57:46 | |
leave families divided. They will be
in the best position to start a new | 0:57:46 | 0:57:49 | |
life in the UK and contributes, as
so many have done magnificently, if | 0:57:49 | 0:57:54 | |
they have the support of their
family around them. I need to | 0:57:54 | 0:58:03 | |
declare an interest, as a trustee of
the refugee Council, which for some | 0:58:03 | 0:58:07 | |
25 years has tried to help about
1000 unaccompanied children each | 0:58:07 | 0:58:16 | |
year navigate our complex processes.
I pay tribute to the work that the | 0:58:16 | 0:58:22 | |
noble Lord did at the Refugee
Council for many years. It still | 0:58:22 | 0:58:27 | |
goes from strength to strength, as
indeed does he. I want to speak | 0:58:27 | 0:58:34 | |
about the problem of unaccompanied
children and the alleged pull | 0:58:34 | 0:58:39 | |
factor. Until I joined the Refugee
Council, I was not aware of the | 0:58:39 | 0:58:46 | |
cruel anomaly, that unlike an adult
refugee, who has the right to bring | 0:58:46 | 0:58:50 | |
in close family members, a refugee
child, here on his or her own, has | 0:58:50 | 0:58:56 | |
no such right to be reunited. That
seems to me to be both illogical and | 0:58:56 | 0:59:03 | |
inhumane. It certainly, as the
Baroness said, is out of line with | 0:59:03 | 0:59:12 | |
European practice. Those countries
who, unlike us, were not opted out, | 0:59:12 | 0:59:23 | |
those countries who are applying the
2003 directive on family reunion, | 0:59:23 | 0:59:30 | |
they do allow unaccompanied child
refugees to bring in their families | 0:59:30 | 0:59:33 | |
subsequently. As the Baroness said,
we, and the Irish, who opted out, or | 0:59:33 | 0:59:40 | |
rather, we didn't opt in, we are in
a different position, and the Irish | 0:59:40 | 0:59:46 | |
and in a different position from us,
because they have the humility to | 0:59:46 | 0:59:51 | |
apply the system in their own
domestic law. It is written into | 0:59:51 | 0:59:55 | |
Irish law. What is being suggested
is that we should write it into our | 0:59:55 | 1:00:04 | |
domestic law, following the Irish
and the rest of the European Union. | 1:00:04 | 1:00:07 | |
It is a little shaming, I think,
that we are the odd man out. The | 1:00:07 | 1:00:13 | |
number of people who would benefit
if we corrected the anomaly is very | 1:00:13 | 1:00:17 | |
small, but the benefit to each
individual would be very large. Let | 1:00:17 | 1:00:22 | |
me cite just one example. The
Refugee Council are currently trying | 1:00:22 | 1:00:27 | |
to help a 19-year-old from Eritrea,
Solomon, who came here as an | 1:00:27 | 1:00:33 | |
unaccompanied child, has been
granted refugee status, as a job, | 1:00:33 | 1:00:37 | |
goes to college and wants to bring
in his 16-year-old sister, who is | 1:00:37 | 1:00:43 | |
now in the refugee camp in northern
Ethiopia. He has just been told that | 1:00:43 | 1:00:48 | |
he cannot. He has been in the camp
himself in the past and knows how | 1:00:48 | 1:00:52 | |
grim the conditions there are, he
knows his sister is in mortal | 1:00:52 | 1:00:56 | |
danger. She is talking of trying her
luck on the perilous illegal passage | 1:00:56 | 1:01:02 | |
across the Sahara, across the
Mediterranean. He fears she will die | 1:01:02 | 1:01:07 | |
and he blames himself for failing to
persuade us to save her. But it is | 1:01:07 | 1:01:13 | |
we who are failing these young
people. It is we who are failing to | 1:01:13 | 1:01:18 | |
show the common humanity, to live up
to the standards of the society we | 1:01:18 | 1:01:22 | |
like to think we are. Following the
second reading debate on what became | 1:01:22 | 1:01:31 | |
the Immigration Act 2016, Lord
Bates, for whom I have a very high | 1:01:31 | 1:01:37 | |
regard, wrote to those of us taking
part in the debate and asserted that | 1:01:37 | 1:01:43 | |
to permit refugee children here to
sponsor requests from their parents | 1:01:43 | 1:01:46 | |
and siblings to join them, I caught,
could result in children being | 1:01:46 | 1:01:52 | |
encouraged or even forced to leave
existing family units in their | 1:01:52 | 1:01:58 | |
country and risk hazardous journeys
to the UK, in order to act as | 1:01:58 | 1:02:02 | |
sponsors. This is the pull factor
theory. And with respect, it is | 1:02:02 | 1:02:09 | |
totally lacking in evidential
credibility or plausibility, and | 1:02:09 | 1:02:14 | |
does not reflect well on the
government. Mr Justice McCluskey, | 1:02:14 | 1:02:20 | |
overturning in the upper chamber the
refusal of the application by a | 1:02:20 | 1:02:23 | |
19-year-old granted refugee status
to bring his mother to join him, | 1:02:23 | 1:02:29 | |
ruled that there is no evidence
underlying it, it being the cool | 1:02:29 | 1:02:35 | |
factor. It is inherently
implausible. Families living in hand | 1:02:35 | 1:02:41 | |
to mouth existence in the squalor of
the refugee camp in Ethiopia, | 1:02:41 | 1:02:48 | |
Eritrea, Jordan, Libya, is
implausible to suggest that they sit | 1:02:48 | 1:02:51 | |
down at the dinner table and make a
cold calculation, coming up with the | 1:02:51 | 1:02:58 | |
cunning, multi-year plan, to send
one of the children through bandits | 1:02:58 | 1:03:04 | |
and traffickers, across deserts and
ocean, in the hope of reaching our | 1:03:04 | 1:03:10 | |
lands, navigating our system and
securing a right, if the Bill | 1:03:10 | 1:03:16 | |
passes, to bring in the rest of the
family. The world is not like that. | 1:03:16 | 1:03:21 | |
This is a strange, sick, Swifty in
joke, not worthy of the modest | 1:03:21 | 1:03:27 | |
proposal. Parents do not send the
children of. The children and adults | 1:03:27 | 1:03:37 | |
are not driven by a pull factor,
they are driven by a push factor. | 1:03:37 | 1:03:41 | |
They are fleeing from conditions
which are intolerable. They are | 1:03:41 | 1:03:45 | |
fleeing for their lives. If the
Minister has been briefed to warn us | 1:03:45 | 1:03:52 | |
against the perils of the pull
factor, in relation to unaccompanied | 1:03:52 | 1:03:57 | |
children, I really hope she will
not. I think she should go back to | 1:03:57 | 1:04:02 | |
the Home Office and ask her
officials how often they have been | 1:04:02 | 1:04:06 | |
to the camps and how many of these
cruel parents they have spotted in | 1:04:06 | 1:04:10 | |
the camps. Plotting to force the
child to come here. And she might | 1:04:10 | 1:04:19 | |
ask her officials why their
colleagues in all other EU capitals | 1:04:19 | 1:04:27 | |
currently have not spotted these
cruel, Carlos, Swifty and parents. | 1:04:27 | 1:04:32 | |
And why does the UN Committee On The
Rights Of The Child now urge the UK | 1:04:32 | 1:04:42 | |
to review its asylum policy in order
to facilitate family reunion for | 1:04:42 | 1:04:46 | |
unaccompanied and separated refugee
children. Why is the whole regiment | 1:04:46 | 1:04:52 | |
out of step, except us? Why do we
know better than everybody else? Why | 1:04:52 | 1:04:59 | |
does the pull factor only apply to
this Emerald Isle. The best way of | 1:04:59 | 1:05:09 | |
convincing your Lordships would be
for us all to see the striking new | 1:05:09 | 1:05:17 | |
film Human Flow. Moving with, it
captures the scale and misery of the | 1:05:17 | 1:05:25 | |
human loss of current refugee
crises. The despair of their broken | 1:05:25 | 1:05:29 | |
societies. Against this huge canvas
of human tragedy, this Bill is a | 1:05:29 | 1:05:36 | |
pitifully small thing, but passing
it would be the right thing, the | 1:05:36 | 1:05:40 | |
decent thing to do. I support it. I
thought it was rather sad that | 1:05:40 | 1:05:47 | |
nobody from the side of the house
was taking part. I would like | 1:05:47 | 1:05:52 | |
briefly to give my support to the
general principles of the Bill. I am | 1:05:52 | 1:05:57 | |
so glad that the noble Lord
mentioned Jonathan Swift's modest | 1:05:57 | 1:06:06 | |
proposal. My Lords, if you haven't
read it and you don't read anything | 1:06:06 | 1:06:09 | |
else during the Christmas recess,
look it up. It won't take you long | 1:06:09 | 1:06:14 | |
and is the most wonderful, area
guide, witty, scintillating | 1:06:14 | 1:06:19 | |
indictment of nonsense that you will
ever read. My Lords, I just wanted | 1:06:19 | 1:06:24 | |
to contribute to this debate for
three reasons. In 1945, I remember | 1:06:24 | 1:06:33 | |
we had, in our own small home, a
couple of Polish children, roughly | 1:06:33 | 1:06:39 | |
of my own age, sex or thereabouts.
They came from a camp in | 1:06:39 | 1:06:46 | |
Lincolnshire, not very far from
Grimsby, will be left, on 23 | 1:06:46 | 1:06:50 | |
separate occasions to spend the day.
And my father was on the point of | 1:06:50 | 1:06:55 | |
making an application to see if we
could adopt at least one of them, | 1:06:55 | 1:07:01 | |
when mercifully, they were reunited
with their family. And the joy, I | 1:07:01 | 1:07:05 | |
can still remember. And then, when I
came into the other place, in 1970, | 1:07:05 | 1:07:14 | |
I had not been long way when I was
very proud to support Edward Heath's | 1:07:14 | 1:07:23 | |
welcoming of the Ugandan Asians. And
like Jewish people before the last | 1:07:23 | 1:07:30 | |
war, and those who like the noble
Lord came with the Kenned transport, | 1:07:30 | 1:07:36 | |
that influx in enriched our society.
We even have at least one of them | 1:07:36 | 1:07:44 | |
among our number in the house. And
then again, I remember, as chairman | 1:07:44 | 1:07:57 | |
of the campaign for the release of
Soviet jury, helping to welcome in | 1:07:57 | 1:08:03 | |
Vienna those who got their visas to
get out of the Soviet Union and the | 1:08:03 | 1:08:06 | |
repressive conditions there, and
come to the west. My Lords, we are | 1:08:06 | 1:08:12 | |
moving towards Brexit. I acknowledge
it, much as I regret it. But the one | 1:08:12 | 1:08:18 | |
thing we must not move towards is an
isolationist position in the | 1:08:18 | 1:08:26 | |
continent of Europe. We must remain
a leading nation. We are a leading | 1:08:26 | 1:08:33 | |
nation with the proud history,
welcoming those fleeing from | 1:08:33 | 1:08:39 | |
persecution. Of course we have got
to be careful as to how we fit | 1:08:39 | 1:08:44 | |
people in this age of terrorism and
so on. But earlier this year, when I | 1:08:44 | 1:08:51 | |
was on the home affairs sub
committee, before I was sacked for | 1:08:51 | 1:08:57 | |
voting as I did in the Article 50
Bill, we had a group of children who | 1:08:57 | 1:09:02 | |
came before us and he gave testimony
to us. Any private session. My | 1:09:02 | 1:09:11 | |
Lords, it was deeply moving. And
this country, with its proud record | 1:09:11 | 1:09:19 | |
going back centuries, welcoming the
Huguenots in the 17th century and so | 1:09:19 | 1:09:27 | |
on, this country has a role which it
must not abandon. My Lords, the | 1:09:27 | 1:09:33 | |
family unit is the building block of
any society. And if we can help, to | 1:09:33 | 1:09:41 | |
have some family units from those
countries which are riven by famine | 1:09:41 | 1:09:51 | |
and a civil war and strife, we will
be living up to our proud history, | 1:09:51 | 1:09:58 | |
and if this Bill helps us to do so,
it deserves our full and unreserved | 1:09:58 | 1:10:03 | |
support. | 1:10:03 | 1:10:10 | |
Mac and mend my noble lord for
bringing this Bill to the House. | 1:10:10 | 1:10:17 | |
Fighting for asylum seekers and
refugees coming to the UK has been | 1:10:17 | 1:10:19 | |
something she has been long
involving. To date we are powerful | 1:10:19 | 1:10:25 | |
arguments on all sides of the house.
I thank the noble Lord for his | 1:10:25 | 1:10:30 | |
speech which allows me to say all
sides of the house. We have heard | 1:10:30 | 1:10:33 | |
had devastating it is for families
to be separated from close family | 1:10:33 | 1:10:37 | |
members. The desperate measures some
are forced to take to escape the | 1:10:37 | 1:10:43 | |
situation they find themselves in.
We know this government, and my | 1:10:43 | 1:10:54 | |
noble friends that the government
places great store on family values. | 1:10:54 | 1:10:59 | |
I hope they will give serious
consideration to the measured asks | 1:10:59 | 1:11:04 | |
in this bill. There are two reasons
I particularly wanted to speak in | 1:11:04 | 1:11:10 | |
this debate. The first one is one of
the hardest things I have had to | 1:11:10 | 1:11:14 | |
listen to is a mother describing
having to make the choice between | 1:11:14 | 1:11:18 | |
staying in a dangerous situation
with young children or fleeing to | 1:11:18 | 1:11:23 | |
safety with them. The price of
safety was to leave behind a young | 1:11:23 | 1:11:29 | |
daughter. Because our rules say as
an over 18-year-old, she is adult | 1:11:29 | 1:11:36 | |
and old enough to fend for herself.
My Lords, I have three children all | 1:11:36 | 1:11:41 | |
in their early 20s. I would utterly
disagree with their ability to fend | 1:11:41 | 1:11:48 | |
for themselves, even in London. The
thought of a young girl on her own | 1:11:48 | 1:11:53 | |
without even the protection of close
family in a conflict zone is a | 1:11:53 | 1:11:57 | |
chilling one. That is a choice
parents are being asked to make. The | 1:11:57 | 1:12:03 | |
second reason is the example of a
young person from Eritrea I met in | 1:12:03 | 1:12:09 | |
the Calais jungle, at this time all
alone far from home. He went there | 1:12:09 | 1:12:21 | |
to joke with his uncle. He and many
of those in northern France were | 1:12:21 | 1:12:28 | |
forced to play refugee roulette,
through dangerous and illegal means. | 1:12:28 | 1:12:33 | |
As the noble Lord said, we're only
talking about a very small number of | 1:12:33 | 1:12:38 | |
children. You are unaccompanied.
Alone in northern France and other | 1:12:38 | 1:12:44 | |
parts of Europe. It would not take
much on our parts to fulfil our | 1:12:44 | 1:12:50 | |
legal obligation, to bring 480
children to the UK. These are only | 1:12:50 | 1:12:59 | |
two stories. We have heard a few
others, all stories of suffering | 1:12:59 | 1:13:07 | |
that are quite frankly avoidable,
and that a small cost to ourselves, | 1:13:07 | 1:13:11 | |
we could remedy this situation. I
don't know exactly what the noble | 1:13:11 | 1:13:17 | |
lady, the minister was saying, in
response to the government. In the | 1:13:17 | 1:13:22 | |
past, all to often, they have said,
and the noble Lord Lord Kerr has | 1:13:22 | 1:13:31 | |
taken on board the arguments about
why they do not give evidence to the | 1:13:31 | 1:13:45 | |
government the contractors. The
assertion it is the easing family | 1:13:45 | 1:13:50 | |
reunification which will create
those factors. Secondly, too often | 1:13:50 | 1:13:55 | |
the government has said in response
to debates on the issues. Those | 1:13:55 | 1:14:02 | |
factors will encourage more
smugglers to operate. Let me first | 1:14:02 | 1:14:08 | |
addressed the pull factors. Quite
frankly this is a figleaf. There is | 1:14:08 | 1:14:14 | |
not a single shred of evidence for
this. I have evidence from my | 1:14:14 | 1:14:19 | |
position. I would like to hear the
evidence from the government for | 1:14:19 | 1:14:26 | |
theirs. My Lords there is ample
correlation between push factors | 1:14:26 | 1:14:34 | |
such as complex, hateful regimes and
famine forcing people to do the | 1:14:34 | 1:14:38 | |
unthinkable, leaving their homes,
communities, with only what they can | 1:14:38 | 1:14:44 | |
carry. Alexander Betts, head of the
refugee studies Centre at the | 1:14:44 | 1:14:48 | |
University of Oxford says in a new
scientist article in September 20 | 1:14:48 | 1:14:54 | |
15th no existing sound research
substantiates the political claim | 1:14:54 | 1:14:57 | |
that giving people asylum in Europe
stimulates more flow. In an e-mail | 1:14:57 | 1:15:03 | |
to me, Professor Ian Golding, head
of the Oxford Martin School on | 1:15:03 | 1:15:09 | |
global challenges says there is no
credible evidence for the | 1:15:09 | 1:15:12 | |
government's claim on pull factors.
The simplest argument is that the | 1:15:12 | 1:15:18 | |
pull factors have not changed, and
yet the refugee numbers have | 1:15:18 | 1:15:22 | |
increased dramatically. The pull
factors that are cited for the UK, | 1:15:22 | 1:15:27 | |
such as higher wages, attraction to
the Social Security benefits are | 1:15:27 | 1:15:33 | |
relatively unchanged over many
years. Yet the refugee numbers | 1:15:33 | 1:15:36 | |
change dramatically. And can be
shown to be directly related to the | 1:15:36 | 1:15:41 | |
push factors. Notably complex in
Syria, Afghanistan and elsewhere. | 1:15:41 | 1:15:51 | |
Can I cite from the Council of
Europe report, the fact finder Kiwic | 1:15:51 | 1:15:55 | |
L commission on migrants in Calais.
By the ambassador he says I was told | 1:15:55 | 1:16:06 | |
by the authorities there was a
reluctance to improve conditions, | 1:16:06 | 1:16:09 | |
because of concerns this would act
as a pull factor. Leading more | 1:16:09 | 1:16:14 | |
migrants to make their way to
Calais. It seems clear to me that | 1:16:14 | 1:16:17 | |
the poor conditions have not acted
as a deterrent so far. It raises | 1:16:17 | 1:16:23 | |
potential issues, and about
degrading treatment, and article | 1:16:23 | 1:16:32 | |
eight, right to respect for family
life for the European Convention on | 1:16:32 | 1:16:35 | |
Human Rights. My Lords, the home
affairs subcommittee in its report | 1:16:35 | 1:16:45 | |
last July, on unaccompanied migrant
children, chaired by the Baroness, | 1:16:45 | 1:16:51 | |
said we receive no evidence of
families sending children as anchors | 1:16:51 | 1:16:56 | |
following the fermentation of the
family reunification directive, | 1:16:56 | 1:17:01 | |
directed by other member states. We
were also told that in some cases | 1:17:01 | 1:17:08 | |
unaccompanied children in the UK
declined to take advantage of | 1:17:08 | 1:17:15 | |
tracing and the reunification
procedures, even when these were | 1:17:15 | 1:17:18 | |
offered. Kent County Council wrote
that the Red Cross is used to trace | 1:17:18 | 1:17:24 | |
family living abroad, although our
experience is that there is limited | 1:17:24 | 1:17:30 | |
take-up of this service from young
people. This is not surprising as | 1:17:30 | 1:17:35 | |
many unaccompanied migrant children
fear attempts to trace family | 1:17:35 | 1:17:39 | |
members living in their countries of
origin could put those family | 1:17:39 | 1:17:42 | |
members in danger. There you have
it, my lord. Pull factors, whether | 1:17:42 | 1:17:51 | |
through improving humanitarian
conditions, or easing Family Reunion | 1:17:51 | 1:17:54 | |
rules, will not cause people to pack
up their lives in a backpack, and | 1:17:54 | 1:18:00 | |
risk an extremely hazardous journey,
to come to the UK. To do that, they | 1:18:00 | 1:18:03 | |
have to be pushed and pushed hard.
This was a quick mention on | 1:18:03 | 1:18:12 | |
smugglers. Do the rules currently
existing keep refugees out of the | 1:18:12 | 1:18:17 | |
clutches of ruthless people
smugglers? The government is correct | 1:18:17 | 1:18:21 | |
in saying smugglers are real to
refugees. In fact, even authorities | 1:18:21 | 1:18:28 | |
in Europe, with all their many
resources, cannot deal with the | 1:18:28 | 1:18:33 | |
smugglers, currently operating in
Europe. Valuable refugees fear them | 1:18:33 | 1:18:38 | |
even more. The fact of the matter
is, the fewer safe and legal routes | 1:18:38 | 1:18:44 | |
there are to process asylum seekers,
the more power the smugglers have. | 1:18:44 | 1:18:52 | |
The human trafficking foundation's
independent enquiry in July of this | 1:18:52 | 1:18:56 | |
year, co-chaired by Fiona McTaggart,
and Baroness Butler-Sloss found no | 1:18:56 | 1:19:04 | |
evidence whatsoever that by creating
a safe and legal route to safety in | 1:19:04 | 1:19:09 | |
the UK, you create a pull factor,
for traffickers targeting vulnerable | 1:19:09 | 1:19:17 | |
children in fact, it found the
opposite. By closing off such | 1:19:17 | 1:19:21 | |
routes, it feeds the trafficking and
smuggling networks. The prices to | 1:19:21 | 1:19:28 | |
get to the UK illegally go up
forcing children into situations | 1:19:28 | 1:19:33 | |
when they are exposed to
exploitation, sexual, or criminal, | 1:19:33 | 1:19:39 | |
or labour. Or maybe a combination of
all three. The simple truth coming | 1:19:39 | 1:19:45 | |
out of the enquiry, instead of
protecting children who have fled to | 1:19:45 | 1:19:51 | |
Europe for safety. The government is
failing them, leaving the way open | 1:19:51 | 1:19:55 | |
for smugglers and traffickers to
exploit them. My Lords, as a number | 1:19:55 | 1:20:01 | |
of noble Lords in the House have
said, it comes down to what kind of | 1:20:01 | 1:20:05 | |
Britain do we want to live in. An
open and welcoming country, those | 1:20:05 | 1:20:12 | |
seeking sanctuary, or a close one.
It is time to stop flouting our | 1:20:12 | 1:20:21 | |
duties, to some of the most
unfortunate people on the planet. | 1:20:21 | 1:20:25 | |
And step up to the mark as decent
human beings. Pulling our weight on | 1:20:25 | 1:20:29 | |
the international stage. My Lords I
congratulate the noble lady, | 1:20:29 | 1:20:42 | |
Baroness Hanham Way on her bill. The
purpose of which, to provide lead, | 1:20:42 | 1:20:49 | |
or remained in the United Kingdom,
for the family members of refugees. | 1:20:49 | 1:20:53 | |
And to refugees you are family
members of British citizens. In her | 1:20:53 | 1:20:56 | |
opening speech, the noble lady,
Baroness Hanham Way explained the | 1:20:56 | 1:21:02 | |
purpose behind the provisions of the
Bill, including the extension of the | 1:21:02 | 1:21:07 | |
list of eligible family members who
can be sponsored in an application. | 1:21:07 | 1:21:12 | |
Humanitarian status of protection.
The bill also provides for the | 1:21:12 | 1:21:16 | |
reinstatement for the provision of
legal aid, in respect to Family | 1:21:16 | 1:21:21 | |
Reunion cases, which can be complex,
and the process itself, lengthy. The | 1:21:21 | 1:21:27 | |
current position under our
immigration rules, individuals | 1:21:27 | 1:21:32 | |
making an asylum application may
only include in that application a | 1:21:32 | 1:21:36 | |
spouse or partner, married partner
or children under the age of 18. | 1:21:36 | 1:21:39 | |
With the pendant is being granted
leave to enter or remain in the UK | 1:21:39 | 1:21:42 | |
for the same generation as a sponsor
if the printable application is | 1:21:42 | 1:21:48 | |
granted. Child asylum seekers in
this country are not legal to | 1:21:48 | 1:21:53 | |
sponsored Jilly Macca -- sponsor
carer or parent to join. The | 1:21:53 | 1:22:04 | |
significant impact this could have,
and addressing the issue of | 1:22:04 | 1:22:10 | |
vulnerability of unaccompanied
children. The exploitation many of | 1:22:10 | 1:22:13 | |
them experience. 18 months ago, the
House of Commons home affairs | 1:22:13 | 1:22:18 | |
committee issued a report which
amongst other things called on the | 1:22:18 | 1:22:21 | |
government to amend immigration laws
allow refugees to act as sponsors | 1:22:21 | 1:22:27 | |
for close family. The committee
argued, as my noble friend Lord Dubs | 1:22:27 | 1:22:33 | |
said, it was the first children
granted refugee status in UK are not | 1:22:33 | 1:22:39 | |
allowed to bring close family to
join them. The same when adult would | 1:22:39 | 1:22:43 | |
be able to do. The right to live
safely with family should apply to | 1:22:43 | 1:22:48 | |
refugees as it does to adults. Ship
that the are are family reunion | 1:22:48 | 1:22:56 | |
policy met our international
obligations. Saying there was | 1:22:56 | 1:22:59 | |
permission to grant a visa, which
could be used in respect of extended | 1:22:59 | 1:23:04 | |
family members. Including parents
and children, recognised as refugees | 1:23:04 | 1:23:08 | |
here in exceptional circumstances.
However we are one of only two EU | 1:23:08 | 1:23:15 | |
countries who have even adopted, or
opted into the EU directive on | 1:23:15 | 1:23:19 | |
Family Reunion, which sets out
unaccompanied child refugees are | 1:23:19 | 1:23:25 | |
entitled to be reunited with family
members. Or alternatively providing | 1:23:25 | 1:23:29 | |
for this in domestic law. Could the
noble lady or the minister, when she | 1:23:29 | 1:23:36 | |
responds to provide information on
the number of visas granted outside | 1:23:36 | 1:23:40 | |
of the rules in exceptional
circumstances since July 2016 when | 1:23:40 | 1:23:45 | |
updated guidance was published. And
the number of which were, in respect | 1:23:45 | 1:23:53 | |
of children and refugees recognised
here. Could the noble lady or the | 1:23:53 | 1:23:56 | |
Minister provide this guidance
outside the rules in exceptional | 1:23:56 | 1:24:06 | |
circumstances, and how the terms
differ, in respect to relatives | 1:24:06 | 1:24:10 | |
joining in the UK relative to the
applicable rules. I hope the | 1:24:10 | 1:24:16 | |
government will feel able to give a
supportive response to this bill. | 1:24:16 | 1:24:19 | |
Even know that would be contrary to
their approach to date. If the | 1:24:19 | 1:24:25 | |
government do not intend to be
helpful, and I'm conscious in the | 1:24:25 | 1:24:29 | |
way they failed to deliver on the
spirit of the Dubs Amendment. The | 1:24:29 | 1:24:34 | |
least they can do is allow the
reasons in some detail, and the hard | 1:24:34 | 1:24:38 | |
evidence to support those reasons.
Bearing in mind the devastating | 1:24:38 | 1:24:42 | |
impact both short and long term,
about which we heard to date, that | 1:24:42 | 1:24:47 | |
family separation can have on those
affected. Not least on children and | 1:24:47 | 1:24:50 | |
young people. | 1:24:50 | 1:24:56 | |
What impact on the net migration
figures does the Government think | 1:24:56 | 1:24:59 | |
that this bill would have? What is
their hard evidence to support this | 1:24:59 | 1:25:04 | |
conclusion. I asked that in the
context that the figure has fallen | 1:25:04 | 1:25:09 | |
remarkably recently, following the
decision to withdraw from the | 1:25:09 | 1:25:13 | |
European Union and the hostile
climates that that provoked. Also, | 1:25:13 | 1:25:17 | |
in the context that the Government
does not apply existing EU rules, as | 1:25:17 | 1:25:22 | |
firmly as its code within those
rules. As some other EU countries | 1:25:22 | 1:25:29 | |
do. Indeed, the Government does not
even know what the impact is on the | 1:25:29 | 1:25:34 | |
net migration figures is not
applying these EU rules as firmly as | 1:25:34 | 1:25:38 | |
it could. I also asked the question
in the context that we have only | 1:25:38 | 1:25:43 | |
found out recently that the
Government, to put it politely, have | 1:25:43 | 1:25:48 | |
been working and Amis apprehends
Asian on the numbers -- working on a | 1:25:48 | 1:25:56 | |
misapprehension about the numbers of
students who stay on after studying. | 1:25:56 | 1:25:59 | |
I also ask in the context that the
Government has no idea of the number | 1:25:59 | 1:26:04 | |
of people in this country illegally,
and focuses only on making it harder | 1:26:04 | 1:26:08 | |
for this unknown number of people to
live in this country illegally. | 1:26:08 | 1:26:13 | |
Finally, I asked the question about
the Government's estimate of the | 1:26:13 | 1:26:18 | |
impact on the net migration figure
of this bill. In the context that | 1:26:18 | 1:26:23 | |
the Government has had control over
the size of the net migration figure | 1:26:23 | 1:26:26 | |
for people from outside the U, and
have had no issues since 2010, | 1:26:26 | 1:26:33 | |
that's net migration figure being
consistently way above the | 1:26:33 | 1:26:37 | |
Government's claimed target figure
of total net migration figure being | 1:26:37 | 1:26:43 | |
of the tens of thousands, this
contradiction no doubt being the | 1:26:43 | 1:26:48 | |
case, no doubt because what ever has
been publicly declared, the | 1:26:48 | 1:26:52 | |
Government knows only too well be
benefits to this country that | 1:26:52 | 1:26:55 | |
immigrants have brought and continue
to bring. So, I hope in the light of | 1:26:55 | 1:27:02 | |
all these factors, that the
Government is not going to try and | 1:27:02 | 1:27:07 | |
argue and imply that we do not have
the capacity to take into our | 1:27:07 | 1:27:12 | |
country the additional people under
humanitarian and family reunion | 1:27:12 | 1:27:17 | |
principles that might come here
under the provisions of this bill, | 1:27:17 | 1:27:21 | |
unless the Government is going to
provide hard evidence that the | 1:27:21 | 1:27:23 | |
figure could be well above what
might be anticipated. In total | 1:27:23 | 1:27:31 | |
contrary to the Government's overall
approach to net migration, which in | 1:27:31 | 1:27:35 | |
reality has been so somewhat
different from the public impression | 1:27:35 | 1:27:42 | |
it seeks to give, for electoral
purposes, that its policy is to | 1:27:42 | 1:27:47 | |
bring that figure into the tens of
thousands, as a matter of priority. | 1:27:47 | 1:27:58 | |
My Lords, may I first thank the
noble lady for raising this very | 1:27:58 | 1:28:04 | |
important issue that we often
discussed in the Lordship's house, | 1:28:04 | 1:28:11 | |
and my Lords, could I just state
upfront, I think it would be useful, | 1:28:11 | 1:28:17 | |
and this is particularly in response
to the noble lord and Lady, my noble | 1:28:17 | 1:28:24 | |
friend, that I would totally agree
that immigration, and I say this as | 1:28:24 | 1:28:30 | |
an immigrant, has enriched the UK,
and particularly, for refugees who | 1:28:30 | 1:28:35 | |
have made the UK their home, since
2010, my Lords, we have granted more | 1:28:35 | 1:28:43 | |
than 100,000 refugees have permanent
residence in the UK. In the year | 1:28:43 | 1:28:50 | |
ending 2017, it was 9000 children,
found such shelter, security and | 1:28:50 | 1:28:55 | |
safety in the UK. 49,000 since 2010,
and we are committed to resettling | 1:28:55 | 1:29:03 | |
up to 3000 honourable children,
together with their families from | 1:29:03 | 1:29:08 | |
the Middle East and North Africa
region, and 20,000 by 2020. Around | 1:29:08 | 1:29:16 | |
half of whom, will be children. That
is the facts to date. In addition, | 1:29:16 | 1:29:23 | |
in comparison to the EU, my Lords, I
think we can stand proud, because, | 1:29:23 | 1:29:32 | |
in 2016, the UK resettled more
refugees, that adult and children, | 1:29:32 | 1:29:36 | |
than any other EU member state. And,
over a third of all resettlement of | 1:29:36 | 1:29:43 | |
the EU, was to the UK. We are a
welcoming country, and we remain a | 1:29:43 | 1:29:49 | |
welcoming country. The noble Lord
asked how many visas had been issued | 1:29:49 | 1:29:57 | |
outside of the immigration rules in
family reunion cases, I can give him | 1:29:57 | 1:30:06 | |
2015 and 2016 figures, it doesn't
15, we issue 21 visas outside the | 1:30:06 | 1:30:11 | |
immigration rules, in 2016, we
issued 49, and up to September 2017, | 1:30:11 | 1:30:20 | |
we have issued 49. My Lords, whether
there are exceptional items that | 1:30:20 | 1:30:25 | |
depend very much on the facts of
each case, but may include, for | 1:30:25 | 1:30:28 | |
example, an adult dependence or
someone living in a context conflict | 1:30:28 | 1:30:38 | |
zone, or a dangerous situation.
Since we have published the | 1:30:38 | 1:30:43 | |
guidance, entry clearance officers
have provided a increased number of | 1:30:43 | 1:30:49 | |
applicants outside of the age.
Outside -- outside of the rules. My | 1:30:49 | 1:31:02 | |
noble friend, Lord made the
important point that we must not | 1:31:02 | 1:31:10 | |
turn inwards. Britain has always
been an outward looking country, and | 1:31:10 | 1:31:14 | |
we will remain so on leaving the
European Union. We will continue to | 1:31:14 | 1:31:18 | |
uphold our international
obligations, and welcome refugees to | 1:31:18 | 1:31:22 | |
our shores as he sides we have done
throughout history. But, I have | 1:31:22 | 1:31:28 | |
listened, my Lords to concerns for
the those separated from family | 1:31:28 | 1:31:36 | |
members by conflict or repression,
and no one, but no one could fail to | 1:31:36 | 1:31:40 | |
be moved by the thought of close
family living in conflict zones, or | 1:31:40 | 1:31:46 | |
dangerous situations. That is why
this Government only supports the | 1:31:46 | 1:31:49 | |
principle of family unity, as we
have already got a proper heads of | 1:31:49 | 1:31:55 | |
framework for family members to be
realised. This is set out in | 1:31:55 | 1:32:02 | |
immigration rules, and our family
union policy, rather than primary | 1:32:02 | 1:32:07 | |
lesson legislation. | 1:32:07 | 1:32:18 | |
In my Lords, there is already in
place for extended family of | 1:32:18 | 1:32:21 | |
refugees in the UK to support
children where there are serious and | 1:32:21 | 1:32:26 | |
compelling circumstances, and for
British citizens to bring family | 1:32:26 | 1:32:29 | |
here, so that there is no need for
children, in particular, to make the | 1:32:29 | 1:32:35 | |
illegal and Ginger 's journeys to
get to the UK. -- dangerous | 1:32:35 | 1:32:39 | |
journeys. The noble Lords and the
noble Baroness, talked about people | 1:32:39 | 1:32:56 | |
factor, and the Government not
having evidence of that pull factor. | 1:32:56 | 1:33:00 | |
I absolutely accept, that there
rather push factors, and it | 1:33:00 | 1:33:07 | |
important that we don't create
further incentives for asylum | 1:33:07 | 1:33:12 | |
seekers to choose to come here,
illegally, rather than claim asylum | 1:33:12 | 1:33:17 | |
from the first country that they
reach. I think it is important to | 1:33:17 | 1:33:22 | |
note that the Bush factor of civil
war, or persecution, is the deciding | 1:33:22 | 1:33:28 | |
factor of whether or not an
individual freeze their country, but | 1:33:28 | 1:33:32 | |
we must do all that we can, to
support those in need of protection, | 1:33:32 | 1:33:37 | |
to claim asylum in the first set
country, to avoid these dangerous | 1:33:37 | 1:33:43 | |
secondary movements, and we know
that changes in policy, impact on | 1:33:43 | 1:33:48 | |
asylum seeker's choices with regards
to those secondary movements. | 1:33:48 | 1:33:55 | |
Germany, for example, in 2015, saw
its asylum in teak increased by 155% | 1:33:55 | 1:34:03 | |
-- intake. More than 5% were from
countries in the Balkans, which | 1:34:03 | 1:34:13 | |
thankfully has not seen conflict for
more than 20 years. The noble lady | 1:34:13 | 1:34:18 | |
talk about us no longer offering DNA
tests for family children. There is | 1:34:18 | 1:34:28 | |
no requirement to provide DNA
evidence, or any other particular | 1:34:28 | 1:34:31 | |
type of evidence, because we
recognise that documentary evidence | 1:34:31 | 1:34:38 | |
might not always be available,
particularly in countries where | 1:34:38 | 1:34:42 | |
there is no administrative
authority. We have improved our | 1:34:42 | 1:34:44 | |
guide to hide light the challenges
-- highlight the challenges that | 1:34:44 | 1:34:49 | |
applicants may face in this regard.
My Lords have highlighted the fact | 1:34:49 | 1:34:56 | |
that family reunion rules only
provide for the immediate family, | 1:34:56 | 1:35:02 | |
but our policy caters for extended
family living in precarious or | 1:35:02 | 1:35:06 | |
dangerous circumstances. There is a
provision to grant visas outside of | 1:35:06 | 1:35:09 | |
the rules, and, in exceptional
cases, unpublished guidelines for | 1:35:09 | 1:35:17 | |
caseworkers makes that clear. The
noble lord asked about the British | 1:35:17 | 1:35:25 | |
citizens former refugees, that they
cannot sponsor family members under | 1:35:25 | 1:35:28 | |
family reunion, but my Lords, most
refugees would complete six and | 1:35:28 | 1:35:36 | |
years leave to remain, before they
can apply for citizenship, and they | 1:35:36 | 1:35:41 | |
can talk to their family members at
any point in those six years, but | 1:35:41 | 1:35:46 | |
the resource provision for British
citizens with exceptional | 1:35:46 | 1:35:49 | |
circumstances, and I can write to
him further about this if he wishes. | 1:35:49 | 1:35:54 | |
But, my Lords, I must be clear that
the rules will remain in place after | 1:35:54 | 1:35:59 | |
our exit from the European Union. | 1:35:59 | 1:36:10 | |
Dublin does not confer immigration
status, simply because an individual | 1:36:12 | 1:36:18 | |
has a family member in the UK, it is
a mechanism for does not -- | 1:36:18 | 1:36:29 | |
mechanism for deciding... Those
transferred under Dublin may need to | 1:36:29 | 1:36:31 | |
leave if they are found not to need
protection. Our family reunion rules | 1:36:31 | 1:36:37 | |
will continue to enable immediate
family members to safely reunite | 1:36:37 | 1:36:41 | |
with their loved ones in the UK,
regardless of the country in which | 1:36:41 | 1:36:47 | |
those family members are. In
addition, those recognised as | 1:36:47 | 1:36:57 | |
refugees, may be able to reunite
throughout mandate resettlement | 1:36:57 | 1:37:01 | |
scheme. Individuals are referred to
UK visas and immigration by an HDR, | 1:37:01 | 1:37:07 | |
where resettlement of the UK is
deemed appropriate. We need to | 1:37:07 | 1:37:11 | |
ensure existing schemes are used to
full effect, to benefit family | 1:37:11 | 1:37:15 | |
members living in regions of
conflict, and for this, we rely on | 1:37:15 | 1:37:22 | |
UNHCR, referring more people for the
settlement under these schemes. My | 1:37:22 | 1:37:25 | |
Lords, I can assure you, that we are
listening to concerns about family | 1:37:25 | 1:37:32 | |
reunion, and I am discussing with
NGOs how we can make improvement, as | 1:37:32 | 1:37:38 | |
part of our wider strategy? Our
starting point, is, is that family | 1:37:38 | 1:37:43 | |
reunion is a matter for immigration
rules and policy, rather than | 1:37:43 | 1:37:47 | |
primary legislation. I believe that
those rules already cater for | 1:37:47 | 1:37:50 | |
certain types of cases, and noble
lord are concerned about, and I | 1:37:50 | 1:37:55 | |
agree entirely that we may need to
ensure that the policy is delivered | 1:37:55 | 1:38:00 | |
in practice. Noble lady refers to
the immigration rules 319 by, for | 1:38:00 | 1:38:17 | |
unaccompanied children, and we are
looking at that rule, whether we | 1:38:17 | 1:38:27 | |
are, this is being discussed with
organisations such as Unicef. The | 1:38:27 | 1:38:38 | |
noble lord made the point that our
policy is perverse, out of step with | 1:38:38 | 1:38:44 | |
the rest of Europe, my lord our
family reunion policy makes our | 1:38:44 | 1:38:49 | |
international obligations and allows
-- meets our international | 1:38:49 | 1:38:54 | |
obligations and allows thousands of
refugees to be reunited with their | 1:38:54 | 1:38:58 | |
immediate families, and we would
regularly review our family reunion | 1:38:58 | 1:39:02 | |
policy in other member states, and
we note that some are seeking to | 1:39:02 | 1:39:05 | |
impose more stringent requirements.
I have already laid out some of the | 1:39:05 | 1:39:13 | |
figures, but, it is important, that
our system does not encourage asylum | 1:39:13 | 1:39:17 | |
seekers who are arriving in a safe
country to elsewhere. We must | 1:39:17 | 1:39:27 | |
undermine the movement from six
countries would undermine to help | 1:39:27 | 1:39:29 | |
those most in need. Both noble lord
is talked about reinstating legal | 1:39:29 | 1:39:38 | |
aid, in family reunion cases, my
Lords, we are committed to providing | 1:39:38 | 1:39:43 | |
clear guidance and application forms
to support customers through the | 1:39:43 | 1:39:46 | |
family reunion process, and, again
we are working closely with key | 1:39:46 | 1:39:51 | |
partners such as the Red Cross and
Unicef, to further improve the | 1:39:51 | 1:40:00 | |
process for action considering
family reunion applications, so that | 1:40:00 | 1:40:04 | |
people understand what is expected
of them, and to ensure that policy | 1:40:04 | 1:40:08 | |
works in practice, --. My Lords,
legal aid is paid for by taxpayers, | 1:40:08 | 1:40:16 | |
and the resources, as noble lord are
not limitless, so it is important | 1:40:16 | 1:40:20 | |
that it is provided for those most
in need, including those who claim | 1:40:20 | 1:40:24 | |
asylum. | 1:40:24 | 1:40:30 | |
I believe that our focus remains on
those who need protection and those | 1:40:30 | 1:40:35 | |
who are fleeing conflict. I am aware
of the importance of those | 1:40:35 | 1:40:42 | |
recognised as refugees in the UK of
having their family joined them pay | 1:40:42 | 1:40:47 | |
to support their integration. That
is why our policy allows immediate | 1:40:47 | 1:40:51 | |
family to come here, whether they
need protection in their own right | 1:40:51 | 1:40:55 | |
or not. More importantly, this
government significant resettlement | 1:40:55 | 1:41:01 | |
commitments are designed to keep
families together. It is worth | 1:41:01 | 1:41:06 | |
reflecting on the contribution that
the government has made to support | 1:41:06 | 1:41:10 | |
those fleeing conflict and
oppression. I have laid out some of | 1:41:10 | 1:41:14 | |
the figures earlier, but we have
expanded our resettlement | 1:41:14 | 1:41:18 | |
commitments to raise resettle
over... In addition, we have | 1:41:18 | 1:41:25 | |
committed 2.46 billion of
humanitarian aid to the Syrian | 1:41:25 | 1:41:27 | |
conflict. My lords, in conclusion, I
think we already have a | 1:41:27 | 1:41:35 | |
comprehensive framework to provide
safe and legal routes for family to | 1:41:35 | 1:41:38 | |
reunite hair. Instead of primary
legislation, we must ensure that our | 1:41:38 | 1:41:44 | |
existing family reunion policy is
delivered in practice. That is one | 1:41:44 | 1:41:48 | |
of the points the noble lady Conway
made right at the outset. Including | 1:41:48 | 1:41:55 | |
visas granted outside the rules and
in exceptional circumstances. And | 1:41:55 | 1:41:59 | |
that our resettlement schemes are
used to affect so we can help those | 1:41:59 | 1:42:05 | |
who need it most. May I thank the
noble lady and could ask her to | 1:42:05 | 1:42:11 | |
continue to work with the government
deceit if there are any other ways | 1:42:11 | 1:42:15 | |
in which we can build on the family
reunion policy. And process with out | 1:42:15 | 1:42:22 | |
the need for primary legislation. My
lords, I would like to thank | 1:42:22 | 1:42:30 | |
everybody supported this bill. I
would like to thank the Minister not | 1:42:30 | 1:42:35 | |
only for the response, but for the
last offer, I am happy to work with | 1:42:35 | 1:42:45 | |
anyone however much I disagree with
certain aspects as to what is being | 1:42:45 | 1:42:48 | |
done. The governments positive
response to refugees really does not | 1:42:48 | 1:42:56 | |
accord with what speakers have had
and know and have told the House. No | 1:42:56 | 1:43:01 | |
doubt that is because so many people
are affected. Much reference has | 1:43:01 | 1:43:06 | |
been made, the pull factors. I will
adopt the time implausible. -- Tama. | 1:43:06 | 1:43:21 | |
... With regard to the rules, simply
repeat again I don't want to make my | 1:43:21 | 1:43:30 | |
speech all over again, that
exceptional circumstances have | 1:43:30 | 1:43:34 | |
actually become normal
circumstances. So you cannot apply | 1:43:34 | 1:43:39 | |
the accepts Shin Amity factor. The
fact remains we have a situation | 1:43:39 | 1:43:44 | |
where it is of huge concern to all
noble lords regarding separated | 1:43:44 | 1:43:50 | |
families. The comprehensive
framework which has been referred to | 1:43:50 | 1:43:57 | |
by the Minister is not one which is
doing the job we all want to see. | 1:43:57 | 1:44:01 | |
The threads which have run
throughout this debate include how | 1:44:01 | 1:44:08 | |
we wish our country in 2017 to be
and to be perceived. Including one | 1:44:08 | 1:44:17 | |
which expresses its humanity and the
value of family. And the practical | 1:44:17 | 1:44:24 | |
reasons also. Including those who
are not... About the enrichment of | 1:44:24 | 1:44:29 | |
our society. Reference was made at
the start to informed public | 1:44:29 | 1:44:37 | |
opinion. Politicians need to take
the lead in informing public | 1:44:37 | 1:44:40 | |
opinion. And in debating with the
public. And I hope that noble lords | 1:44:40 | 1:44:48 | |
will agree to give this bill eight
Second Reading. The question is that | 1:44:48 | 1:44:57 | |
this bill will now be read a second
time. Those content will stop those | 1:44:57 | 1:45:02 | |
not content. My lords, I beg to urge
the bill be moved to the committee | 1:45:02 | 1:45:10 | |
of the whole house. The bill be
moved to a committee of the whole | 1:45:10 | 1:45:14 | |
house as many who say they are
content? Those who not content. | 1:45:14 | 1:45:22 | |
Second Reading of the immigration
control of human rights abuses | 1:45:22 | 1:45:25 | |
bill... I beg to move that this bill
now be read a second time. It is | 1:45:25 | 1:45:33 | |
impossible to embark on the Second
Reading of this bill without | 1:45:33 | 1:45:37 | |
explaining... The shock shocking
backdrop in this effort to create | 1:45:37 | 1:45:42 | |
legislation which will provide entry
into this country of people who are | 1:45:42 | 1:45:46 | |
gross abuses of human rights. A
Russian lawyer who acted... For | 1:45:46 | 1:45:53 | |
Hermitage capital management. Its
refusal to demand to the bow to the | 1:45:53 | 1:46:01 | |
demands of Putin, bought episode of
harassment and intimidation. In June | 1:46:01 | 1:46:08 | |
of October 2008, Sergio testified it
up before the public investigative | 1:46:08 | 1:46:14 | |
committee in Moscow against corrupt
officials who were involved in the | 1:46:14 | 1:46:18 | |
corporate rate on Hermitage 's
offices there. Taken place the | 1:46:18 | 1:46:23 | |
previous year. For having the
temerity to challenge the power of | 1:46:23 | 1:46:29 | |
the Russian state, Sergio was
arrested and detained on charges | 1:46:29 | 1:46:33 | |
trumped up. The conditions he was
held in pre-trial conditions were | 1:46:33 | 1:46:40 | |
horrendous. Freezing cells, open
sewage. Beds in short supply, | 1:46:40 | 1:46:45 | |
prisoners forced to sleep in shifts.
Sergio became very ill. He was | 1:46:45 | 1:46:51 | |
denied medical treatment. His family
and treaties were ignored. He was | 1:46:51 | 1:47:00 | |
permanently handcuffed and regularly
struck. He was found dead in his | 1:47:00 | 1:47:04 | |
cell with injuries which were
consistent with a final and hellish | 1:47:04 | 1:47:07 | |
beating. It begs belief, but four
years after his death, he was tried, | 1:47:07 | 1:47:15 | |
I suppose they would call a trial in
your absence and was convicted, | 1:47:15 | 1:47:20 | |
having been posthumously prosecuted
by the Russian state. The | 1:47:20 | 1:47:24 | |
authoritarian termism of Putin's
state reaches beyond the grave. Of | 1:47:24 | 1:47:29 | |
course, what they were really doing
was seeking to justify the cruelty | 1:47:29 | 1:47:33 | |
that had exacted by them against a
lawyer who dared to stand up for the | 1:47:33 | 1:47:38 | |
rule of law. Those who were
responsible for this catalogue of | 1:47:38 | 1:47:44 | |
abuse have since been honoured by
the brush and state and they have | 1:47:44 | 1:47:48 | |
usually enriched themselves through
fraud, using hand the Taj as a | 1:47:48 | 1:47:52 | |
cover. Sergio's death left a mother,
a wife and two children to grieve. | 1:47:52 | 1:48:00 | |
As well as a devoted friend and
client who is not going to take what | 1:48:00 | 1:48:04 | |
happened lying down. His friend was
the only financier banker who has | 1:48:04 | 1:48:12 | |
turned into a dedicated full on
full-time human rights activist. So | 1:48:12 | 1:48:19 | |
Sergio's death, he has worked
tirelessly to secure justice. He has | 1:48:19 | 1:48:24 | |
campaigned against the continuity
which was enjoyed by those officials | 1:48:24 | 1:48:28 | |
who committed these gross acts of
inhumanity. Knowing that Russia | 1:48:28 | 1:48:32 | |
under Putin will never prosecute
those who jailed, persecuted and | 1:48:32 | 1:48:36 | |
ultimately killed Sergio, he has
lobbied and campaigned and urged | 1:48:36 | 1:48:42 | |
other nations to deny thanks --...
The enjoyment of travel, the use of | 1:48:42 | 1:48:51 | |
ill gotten gains and the anonymity
which allows them to escape. So far, | 1:48:51 | 1:48:58 | |
he has persuaded the United States
and Canadian to legislate. It is | 1:48:58 | 1:49:02 | |
time we did this also. This is about
creating law. Human rights violators | 1:49:02 | 1:49:12 | |
like those who murdered Sergio,
exist in other nations to. In Sudan. | 1:49:12 | 1:49:17 | |
Where we have generals like Sala
gosh, identified by the UN Palin of | 1:49:17 | 1:49:26 | |
experts to someone who should be
subject to sanctions -- sanctioned. | 1:49:26 | 1:49:32 | |
Then there is another general Mark
Muhammed Hussain who has warrants | 1:49:32 | 1:49:42 | |
outstanding from the international
court for his role for crimes | 1:49:42 | 1:49:47 | |
against you manatee and war crimes.
In the Congo, where we have seen | 1:49:47 | 1:49:54 | |
greediest atrocities committed and
mass rape of women. In parts of the | 1:49:54 | 1:50:00 | |
middle east, criminals walk free and
come regularly to this country. | 1:50:00 | 1:50:06 | |
Generals in Myanmar also are coming
to mind. The United Nations | 1:50:06 | 1:50:11 | |
commission for human rights can
identify and provide evidence as TDs | 1:50:11 | 1:50:15 | |
violators of human rights. They
should not be able to come here. | 1:50:15 | 1:50:19 | |
Think their money into expensive
properties. Have their operations at | 1:50:19 | 1:50:23 | |
private hospitals. Send their
children to expensive private | 1:50:23 | 1:50:26 | |
schools and live in our midst in
impunity. Acids can now be frozen. | 1:50:26 | 1:50:32 | |
This bill is to deny them deserve.
The USA and Canadian acts contain | 1:50:32 | 1:50:42 | |
elements that provide a template to
be replicated the world over. Asset | 1:50:42 | 1:50:46 | |
freezes. Travel bans and the
explicit naming of the individuals | 1:50:46 | 1:50:51 | |
whose conduct has led the government
to sanction them. At present, the UK | 1:50:51 | 1:50:56 | |
only has the asset freezing aspect
of this type of law. This was | 1:50:56 | 1:51:02 | |
introduced when the criminal
finances act, which has an amending | 1:51:02 | 1:51:05 | |
attached to it in April 2017 this
year, it had passed through | 1:51:05 | 1:51:12 | |
Parliament in the preceding months.
This amendment allowed the | 1:51:12 | 1:51:17 | |
government to apply to a High Court
to have the assets of suspected | 1:51:17 | 1:51:20 | |
human rights violators frozen. This
left the UN lacking in travel | 1:51:20 | 1:51:30 | |
bans... Under immigration rules, the
Home Secretary does have a personal, | 1:51:30 | 1:51:37 | |
non-statutory power to issue travel
bans to individuals on the basis | 1:51:37 | 1:51:42 | |
that their exclusion to the UK is
conducive to the public good. | 1:51:42 | 1:51:46 | |
Section 35A of the immigration act
1971 says that the power to deport | 1:51:46 | 1:51:53 | |
anyone in the discretion of the Home
Secretary if this is good for the | 1:51:53 | 1:51:56 | |
public good. How often have those
powers being used against human | 1:51:56 | 1:52:02 | |
right abuses? The current powers
allow the Home Secretary to prevent | 1:52:02 | 1:52:08 | |
the names of those being banned from
being published. The existence of a | 1:52:08 | 1:52:16 | |
specific statutory provision. And
that is what is being sought here. | 1:52:16 | 1:52:22 | |
Aimed at sanctioning those involved
in human rights abuses have focused | 1:52:22 | 1:52:26 | |
their attention on that law and also
introduce greater transparency into | 1:52:26 | 1:52:30 | |
the exercise of powers to impose
these bands. The Foreign Affairs | 1:52:30 | 1:52:35 | |
Committee published a report in
2011. On the FCO's human rights work | 1:52:35 | 1:52:41 | |
which asserted the value of
publicising the names of those who | 1:52:41 | 1:52:44 | |
were denied visas to enter the
United Kingdom as a means of drawing | 1:52:44 | 1:52:48 | |
attention to the UK's determination
to uphold high standards of human | 1:52:48 | 1:52:52 | |
rights. Only a few days ago, in this
chamber, I participated in a debate | 1:52:52 | 1:52:58 | |
about human rights, subsequent to
Brexit. We were given guarantees | 1:52:58 | 1:53:01 | |
from the Minister, from the benches,
saying that human rights were a | 1:53:01 | 1:53:08 | |
central consideration of this
government. Here is a way in which | 1:53:08 | 1:53:11 | |
this can be expressed. Dominic bra,
member of Parliament argued in the | 1:53:11 | 1:53:17 | |
Commons debate in February of this
year, sorry, two years ago. In the | 1:53:17 | 1:53:24 | |
introduction of specific statutory
powers would give the public the | 1:53:24 | 1:53:26 | |
right to know which individuals were
being banned and which were not. And | 1:53:26 | 1:53:31 | |
would help travel bans act as an
effective deterrent to others. Would | 1:53:31 | 1:53:37 | |
soon see a chilling effect of the
movement of people if they thought | 1:53:37 | 1:53:41 | |
that they were going to be problems
as they sought entry into the | 1:53:41 | 1:53:45 | |
country. The immigration control
gross human rights abuses bill | 1:53:45 | 1:53:50 | |
introduces two missing elements of a
fully fledged minuscule. Explicit | 1:53:50 | 1:53:57 | |
powers... Transparent naming
requirements for those who are | 1:53:57 | 1:54:04 | |
banned. Following the successful
campaigns to pass these acts in the | 1:54:04 | 1:54:11 | |
US and Canada, the Russian
government has pursued William... | 1:54:11 | 1:54:15 | |
Including abuse of international
cooperation mechanisms, applying for | 1:54:15 | 1:54:22 | |
arrest warrants. And the extradition
to Russia. There have been five | 1:54:22 | 1:54:27 | |
separate applications for is
arrested by these means, all of | 1:54:27 | 1:54:29 | |
which have been rejected by
Interpol. But what it tells us, my | 1:54:29 | 1:54:34 | |
lords, is | 1:54:34 | 1:54:45 | |
They are doing their job. That is
why Russia are so determined to go | 1:54:45 | 1:54:49 | |
after him. One of the great
complaint about human rights law is | 1:54:49 | 1:54:53 | |
that it has insufficient to. This is
how it you give teeth to our | 1:54:53 | 1:54:58 | |
international commitments. I
strongly commend this bill to the | 1:54:58 | 1:54:59 | |
House. Let me thank and applaud the
noble Baroness for introducing this | 1:54:59 | 1:55:14 | |
bill on a profoundly important
subject. As the House well knows she | 1:55:14 | 1:55:20 | |
brings a phenomenal experience as a
distinguished champion of human | 1:55:20 | 1:55:25 | |
rights. Her work, past and present,
includes six years of counsel, and I | 1:55:25 | 1:55:35 | |
have a privilege of being deputy
chairman for a time. I well written | 1:55:35 | 1:55:39 | |
call her inspiring figures on human
rights, and a fresh perspective and | 1:55:39 | 1:55:43 | |
energy for that. She has sat on a
number of committees in the most | 1:55:43 | 1:55:54 | |
distinguished fashion, and most
recently, leading the college is | 1:55:54 | 1:56:01 | |
splendidly as principal for the last
six years. Her long-term legacy will | 1:56:01 | 1:56:06 | |
be in human rights. The institute
will provide a distinguished form of | 1:56:06 | 1:56:13 | |
human rights scholarship, and we
look forward to the world-class | 1:56:13 | 1:56:16 | |
events, research and policy
development it will surely generate. | 1:56:16 | 1:56:21 | |
Respect for human rights is at the
heart of our Constitution and | 1:56:21 | 1:56:24 | |
culture. As the late Lord Bingham,
the first judge of the modern era, | 1:56:24 | 1:56:31 | |
to be master of roles, Lord chief
justice, said, in a world divided by | 1:56:31 | 1:56:42 | |
differences of nationality, race,
colour and religion and well, the | 1:56:42 | 1:56:44 | |
rule of law is the one great
unifying factor. Perhaps, the | 1:56:44 | 1:56:49 | |
greatest. The nearest that we are
likely to approach to a secular and | 1:56:49 | 1:56:57 | |
it on. In discussions on the
violations of human rights have been | 1:56:57 | 1:57:06 | |
ongoing here for many years. As the
noble lady and my friend said, since | 1:57:06 | 1:57:10 | |
the tragic deaths, the matter has
been given fresh intensity, after | 1:57:10 | 1:57:19 | |
encouraging the alleged £150 million
fraud, and considering he was | 1:57:19 | 1:57:29 | |
incarcerated in prison without
trial, and during his detention, it | 1:57:29 | 1:57:32 | |
was says that he was wilfully
subjected to torture, and received | 1:57:32 | 1:57:38 | |
delayed and inadequate treatment of
pancreatitis. After 358 days there, | 1:57:38 | 1:57:42 | |
he died in 2009. Surrogate, it has
been said that he worked as a... The | 1:57:42 | 1:57:56 | |
founder and chief executive of this
country, has been unrelenting in his | 1:57:56 | 1:58:03 | |
dedication for campaigning for
legislation for pursuing those | 1:58:03 | 1:58:08 | |
responsible for his death, and
penalising others similarly, as the | 1:58:08 | 1:58:11 | |
noble lady said, he is ready to
become a full-time human rights | 1:58:11 | 1:58:16 | |
campaigner. There are so many in
business facing adversity, move the | 1:58:16 | 1:58:21 | |
other way, look at the commercial
interests, it is never good for | 1:58:21 | 1:58:23 | |
business. To become a difficult
person or a relentless campaign. So | 1:58:23 | 1:58:29 | |
much easier to move on, create more
wealth, maybe dedicate some of that | 1:58:29 | 1:58:37 | |
to causes, but Bill is a example to
us all in his tenacity, courage and | 1:58:37 | 1:58:44 | |
persuasiveness and determination.
So, he was the driving force | 1:58:44 | 1:58:51 | |
concerning the accountability act
2012 in the United States, the | 1:58:51 | 1:58:54 | |
purpose of that legislation has been
said, to punish those responsible in | 1:58:54 | 1:59:02 | |
the death, by banning them from the
United States, and denying them | 1:59:02 | 1:59:05 | |
access to American banking systems.
Another prominent human rights | 1:59:05 | 1:59:20 | |
lawyer, Robertson said it was one of
the most important examples of human | 1:59:20 | 1:59:23 | |
rights. | 1:59:23 | 1:59:33 | |
It was a welcome development,
following much campaigning, when in | 1:59:34 | 1:59:37 | |
April, this year, the act passed
unanimously from the House of | 1:59:37 | 1:59:47 | |
Commons, to contain the provisions
that allow Government to... We | 1:59:47 | 1:59:56 | |
applaud the cross-party support that
led to the Government is taking that | 1:59:56 | 1:59:58 | |
vital step, to prevent those
responsible and complicit in these | 1:59:58 | 2:00:03 | |
appalling incidents. Human rights is
central to our shared values. We | 2:00:03 | 2:00:11 | |
should send a clear as possible
message, holding ourselves at the | 2:00:11 | 2:00:16 | |
highest standards. We recall the
minister's excellent speech. He | 2:00:16 | 2:00:26 | |
recognised his story as only one
example of the many atrocities of | 2:00:26 | 2:00:30 | |
human rights violations committed
globally every year. We very much | 2:00:30 | 2:00:34 | |
look forward to her response, now.
We hope that she would agree to go | 2:00:34 | 2:00:39 | |
this extra step. Additionally, we
should not overlook the ongoing | 2:00:39 | 2:00:45 | |
deprivations and persecution by some
national leaders in particular | 2:00:45 | 2:00:48 | |
countries. We have got to weep as
because of the of the fate of the | 2:00:48 | 2:00:54 | |
Muslims, and other minorities in
Myanmar to remain in Syria. The | 2:00:54 | 2:01:00 | |
noble lady catalogue the further
list of examples, and we cannot pass | 2:01:00 | 2:01:05 | |
by and take no notice. I just wish
that there were, in every year and | 2:01:05 | 2:01:11 | |
continent, that there... Before the
said benefit of their people, paving | 2:01:11 | 2:01:25 | |
the way to sustainable and equitable
prosperity. We should identify and | 2:01:25 | 2:01:31 | |
support the best, but we also have
an obligation to target and | 2:01:31 | 2:01:36 | |
penalised the worst. Let our law and
practice bring an end to the scandal | 2:01:36 | 2:01:39 | |
of wrongdoing and welcome to spend
their time and money here without | 2:01:39 | 2:01:46 | |
net. I support the bill. I too, -- I
too, strongly support this bill. I | 2:01:46 | 2:02:00 | |
welcome the Lady's commitment Ann
Hough commitment -- commitment to | 2:02:00 | 2:02:08 | |
the cause. As she had explained,
essentially, to complete what must | 2:02:08 | 2:02:14 | |
surely be accepted by all as a
compellingly necessary legislative | 2:02:14 | 2:02:20 | |
response to the particular form of
gross abuse of human rights, to | 2:02:20 | 2:02:26 | |
which it is directed. Part of that
response, the monetary part, as has | 2:02:26 | 2:02:31 | |
been expend, in the criminal
finances act earlier this year, | 2:02:31 | 2:02:36 | |
which provides, by way of amendment
to the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, | 2:02:36 | 2:02:42 | |
fully civil recovery of the proceeds
of Arnold for conduct, and that | 2:02:42 | 2:02:48 | |
unlawful conduct is now defined and
pursued to the 2017 act, to include, | 2:02:48 | 2:02:54 | |
under the title, Gross Human Rights
Abuse Of Violation, the appalling | 2:02:54 | 2:03:02 | |
ill-treatment of what can be called
whistle-blowers, and the like. Under | 2:03:02 | 2:03:11 | |
the 2002 acts, as now amended, the
financial gain from this form of | 2:03:11 | 2:03:19 | |
gross human rights abuses can be
frozen by establishing a quote good | 2:03:19 | 2:03:24 | |
arguable case unquote, and recovered
by legal action into cases then | 2:03:24 | 2:03:31 | |
established on the balance of
probabilities. Having supported that | 2:03:31 | 2:03:36 | |
provision, in my speech and second
reading on the 2017 act, when I | 2:03:36 | 2:03:42 | |
simply mentioned the name, I then
received by post a copy of the book. | 2:03:42 | 2:03:51 | |
Generally, never one -- one never
gets round to reading these, but I | 2:03:51 | 2:03:59 | |
was tempted to dip into it by the
endorsements on the cover, quote a | 2:03:59 | 2:04:04 | |
shocking, to life -- to left
thriller. Unquote. Having picked it | 2:04:04 | 2:04:20 | |
up, I could not put it down, and I
finished it with a deep sense of | 2:04:20 | 2:04:27 | |
outrage. It was described as the
best thrillers someone ever read | 2:04:27 | 2:04:37 | |
and. The criminal finances act,
earlier this year, dealt only with | 2:04:37 | 2:04:48 | |
the material proceeds of that sort
of appalling Ms conduct, and has | 2:04:48 | 2:04:54 | |
also been explained, by the United
States legislation, which Bill had | 2:04:54 | 2:05:01 | |
secured, somewhat previously has
prohibited or so, and rightly so, | 2:05:01 | 2:05:07 | |
the entry of certain individuals to
the United States, and it is | 2:05:07 | 2:05:11 | |
essential to achieve this, that the
bill today is directed, and I | 2:05:11 | 2:05:19 | |
applaud it. But, there are two Mac
questions, and I think it is just | 2:05:19 | 2:05:23 | |
worth reading. Clause one provides
for the banning entry... What | 2:05:23 | 2:05:50 | |
standard of proof is intended to
apply? What state of mind must the | 2:05:50 | 2:06:00 | |
Secretary of State or the
immigration officer PA before he can | 2:06:00 | 2:06:02 | |
act as this bill envisages? Bill for
what it is worth, and it might not | 2:06:02 | 2:06:08 | |
be | 2:06:08 | 2:06:18 | |
much, concerning the correct
approach to decide on the barring of | 2:06:20 | 2:06:33 | |
the darts we will... And in
considering what that involved, we | 2:06:33 | 2:06:47 | |
have concluded that clearly, a lower
standard is required, and would be | 2:06:47 | 2:06:53 | |
applicable to an actual war crimes
trial, but, there was a higher test | 2:06:53 | 2:06:58 | |
for exclusion, having, quote,
reasonable grounds for suspecting, | 2:06:58 | 2:07:07 | |
unquote. Considering, the word
considering, we approximate rather | 2:07:07 | 2:07:15 | |
to believing them to expecting, now
I know from the briefing on this | 2:07:15 | 2:07:22 | |
bill that the Home Office guidance
on the approach to immigration rule | 2:07:22 | 2:07:26 | |
320 bracket 19, the paragraph that
provides for an immigration officer | 2:07:26 | 2:07:34 | |
to refuse entry if he deems the
person's exclusion to be conclusive | 2:07:34 | 2:07:38 | |
to the public good. The Home Office
guidance to that, is that entry must | 2:07:38 | 2:07:46 | |
be refused, if the person is
suspected of crimes against | 2:07:46 | 2:07:50 | |
humanity. But, it may be perhaps one
thing to route views -- refuse entry | 2:07:50 | 2:08:00 | |
on the basis of Mears is bitten, as
that guidance suggests, in that | 2:08:00 | 2:08:07 | |
context. Perhaps, another thing, is
that this bill also envisages to | 2:08:07 | 2:08:11 | |
cancel or curtail existing leave. At
this stage, what I would say is that | 2:08:11 | 2:08:19 | |
by the thought may need to be given
to the word, known, which is perhaps | 2:08:19 | 2:08:24 | |
too exact in a test it may need
amendment at committees page. Over | 2:08:24 | 2:08:35 | |
the last few months, this house has
been devoting considerable time to | 2:08:35 | 2:08:42 | |
the sanctions and
anti-money-laundering bill, and | 2:08:42 | 2:08:50 | |
knowing of this impending bill, I
have to say, it has occurred to me | 2:08:50 | 2:08:56 | |
from time to time, that this
objective could possibly have been | 2:08:56 | 2:09:02 | |
encompassed, within the sanctions
provision, in this substantial bluey | 2:09:02 | 2:09:07 | |
more comprehensive public bill. The
sanctions bill has just, of course, | 2:09:07 | 2:09:13 | |
reached report stage, and I simply
ask, could and should this further | 2:09:13 | 2:09:23 | |
provision, shredded, I wonder, now
introduced into that act? At least, | 2:09:23 | 2:09:31 | |
the possibilities should be
considered, unless of course it has | 2:09:31 | 2:09:33 | |
already been, it for some reason
which I know it has been rejected. I | 2:09:33 | 2:09:40 | |
do suggest that thought could be
given to that. All that said, I | 2:09:40 | 2:09:43 | |
repeat my strong support for
introducing this further provision | 2:09:43 | 2:09:50 | |
into our law, and which this bill a
fair wind. | 2:09:50 | 2:10:06 | |
And commend her to bring it forward
and for presenting it with all the | 2:10:06 | 2:10:11 | |
persuasiveness and passion that has
made her one of the country's great | 2:10:11 | 2:10:16 | |
advocates. And of course, she is an
advocate for great causes and this | 2:10:16 | 2:10:21 | |
is one. It is perhaps particularly
ironic that this bill comes | 2:10:21 | 2:10:27 | |
immediately after the last second
Reading. In the last second Reading, | 2:10:27 | 2:10:35 | |
we were talking about children,
unfortunate children at the mercy of | 2:10:35 | 2:10:40 | |
events and trying to open the door
to enable them to come into this | 2:10:40 | 2:10:44 | |
country to be looked after and cared
for. Here, we are looking at the | 2:10:44 | 2:10:50 | |
horrible fact that those Dooley
there with their idols can easily | 2:10:50 | 2:10:56 | |
come into this country and bring
their ill gotten gains and families | 2:10:56 | 2:11:01 | |
with them with remarkably little
hindrance when they have engaged in | 2:11:01 | 2:11:05 | |
some of the most appalling and
inhuman practices in their own parts | 2:11:05 | 2:11:08 | |
of the world. I am as enthusiastic
about dealing with the malefactors | 2:11:08 | 2:11:15 | |
as I am speaking for those who need
are care and support. My lords, this | 2:11:15 | 2:11:21 | |
is described as a Magnitsky bill,
but of course, it's not because this | 2:11:21 | 2:11:29 | |
is the only case. I see the noble
lord in his place and remember that | 2:11:29 | 2:11:35 | |
in July 2013, he brought forward
another case. There are many such | 2:11:35 | 2:11:44 | |
cases. I look forward to what he has
to say about these things because | 2:11:44 | 2:11:49 | |
this is not an isolated case, it is
something that has been going on. It | 2:11:49 | 2:11:55 | |
is a whole attitude and approach on
Mr Putin's regime. One might say | 2:11:55 | 2:12:02 | |
there is a long history in that
country going back to the days of | 2:12:02 | 2:12:06 | |
the Soviet Union when he was also a
significant figure. But one of the | 2:12:06 | 2:12:11 | |
big differences was, in those days,
the officials, whatever they were | 2:12:11 | 2:12:15 | |
doing within the Soviet Union, they
tended to stay there. Now they steal | 2:12:15 | 2:12:22 | |
from their own country and people
and bring their ill gotten gains to | 2:12:22 | 2:12:28 | |
this country to inflate the House
prices in some places and give | 2:12:28 | 2:12:32 | |
themselves a good life and also as
of possibilities and we find | 2:12:32 | 2:12:37 | |
ourselves permitting this to happen
when we know it is wrong. We don't | 2:12:37 | 2:12:41 | |
have too, there are things we can do
about it. Often, when there are | 2:12:41 | 2:12:46 | |
things happening that we are very
unhappy about, and sadly there are | 2:12:46 | 2:12:50 | |
many of them in the world, we are
unable to do something to make a | 2:12:50 | 2:12:54 | |
difference. But it is clear that we
can make a difference in this case. | 2:12:54 | 2:13:02 | |
When the Magnitsky act was passed,
the response from Mr Putin and his | 2:13:02 | 2:13:08 | |
colleagues was strident. It was
clear it has had an impact. When we | 2:13:08 | 2:13:13 | |
spoke on December 2012 at a press
conference, it is clearly not just | 2:13:13 | 2:13:17 | |
from what he said but the way he
said it that this was really | 2:13:17 | 2:13:22 | |
striking home. They produced their
own anti-Magnitsky act and it was a | 2:13:22 | 2:13:29 | |
strangely ironic thing because what
they did was blocked the adoption of | 2:13:29 | 2:13:34 | |
Russian children by people from the
United States and America. There is | 2:13:34 | 2:13:40 | |
something so seedy, unpleasant and
vile about that kind of response | 2:13:40 | 2:13:44 | |
that it tells us something about the
spirit from which it is coming. My | 2:13:44 | 2:13:48 | |
lords, it is clear to me that this
is something we can do and we should | 2:13:48 | 2:13:55 | |
do and I am glad that we have the
opportunity presented to us to do | 2:13:55 | 2:13:59 | |
just that. My lords, may I also
starred with congratulating the | 2:13:59 | 2:14:09 | |
noble lady in bringing forward the
spill. It is a pleasure to come and | 2:14:09 | 2:14:14 | |
support this measure. In her speech,
she gave a short description of the | 2:14:14 | 2:14:19 | |
circumstances that led to the death
of Sergei Magnitsky. I think we | 2:14:19 | 2:14:24 | |
should reflect a bit on the context
of there, because it is a reluctant | 2:14:24 | 2:14:35 | |
thing that people recognise the
reality that Russia is not a normal | 2:14:35 | 2:14:38 | |
state. It is pretty close to being a
mafia state. There are high levels | 2:14:38 | 2:14:43 | |
of corruption in all parts of the
state and the response of person to | 2:14:43 | 2:14:49 | |
the Magnitsky legislation and their
pursuit of Bill Browder indicates | 2:14:49 | 2:14:56 | |
that at the highest level of
Government, they are colluding with | 2:14:56 | 2:15:00 | |
the criminality that is there. I do
wish members of society here who | 2:15:00 | 2:15:08 | |
sometimes can be found on the
expense of yards of these gangsters | 2:15:08 | 2:15:14 | |
or think that Russia is a country
that we can do business with, I wish | 2:15:14 | 2:15:20 | |
they would think again and bear in
mind the character of people that | 2:15:20 | 2:15:24 | |
they are proposing to deal with.
This legislation is the second-half | 2:15:24 | 2:15:32 | |
of what you might call the Magnitsky
Amendment. The first half as already | 2:15:32 | 2:15:37 | |
been enacted. I think that is an
idea that we should look closely at, | 2:15:37 | 2:15:46 | |
but was just sad. A bigger question
on my mind is, is this legislation | 2:15:46 | 2:15:53 | |
going to be enforced? That is an
area where one has some concerns and | 2:15:53 | 2:16:01 | |
the concerns are illustrated, just
going through this particular case. | 2:16:01 | 2:16:11 | |
A question was tabled in the other
place, where it was asked, if any of | 2:16:11 | 2:16:18 | |
the 60 individuals named on the list
published by the commission on | 2:16:18 | 2:16:22 | |
Security and co-operation in Europe,
individuals involved in the tax | 2:16:22 | 2:16:28 | |
fraud and torture and death of
Sergei Magnitsky published in June, | 2:16:28 | 2:16:32 | |
if any of those have visited the UK
in the past year and if she will | 2:16:32 | 2:16:38 | |
disclose such visits. Unfortunately,
the Minister for education replied | 2:16:38 | 2:16:44 | |
that it was long-standing policy not
to disclose details of records which | 2:16:44 | 2:16:49 | |
may be held in relation to the...
The Home Office is already aware of | 2:16:49 | 2:16:57 | |
the individuals on the list and has
taken the necessary measures to | 2:16:57 | 2:17:01 | |
prevent them from being issued with
the visas for travel to the UK. He | 2:17:01 | 2:17:10 | |
is doing quite well by signalling
that but unfortunately, a fewer days | 2:17:10 | 2:17:15 | |
later, the letter was sent that,
although the special cases | 2:17:15 | 2:17:20 | |
directorate has taken to make sure
applications for travel to the UK | 2:17:20 | 2:17:25 | |
are flagged up for careful
consideration on a case-by-case | 2:17:25 | 2:17:29 | |
basis, no decision has been made to
refuse the reef outright. I think | 2:17:29 | 2:17:33 | |
that's disgraceful. I think to talk
about all applications to be dealt | 2:17:33 | 2:17:39 | |
with on the individual merits as an
in-line with our usual practice is | 2:17:39 | 2:17:45 | |
really chilling because these are
not usual cases and they shouldn't | 2:17:45 | 2:17:50 | |
be treated as part of the usual
practice. The point that was made | 2:17:50 | 2:17:55 | |
earlier is that these provisions
actually do work. They are hitting | 2:17:55 | 2:18:02 | |
the oligarchs and the criminal gang
spirit hurts in terms of the | 2:18:02 | 2:18:05 | |
freezing of assets and denial of
access to hear and I think we should | 2:18:05 | 2:18:10 | |
be doing this at a matter of policy
rather than waiting for individual | 2:18:10 | 2:18:15 | |
cases to come about. That is the
main point I wish to make on this, | 2:18:15 | 2:18:21 | |
not just to support this proposal
but to see that it is enforced as a | 2:18:21 | 2:18:29 | |
matter of general policy because it
gives us a very valuable tool. | 2:18:29 | 2:18:33 | |
Coming to London is an attractive
thing and refusing that is something | 2:18:33 | 2:18:36 | |
that is going to enable us to make a
difference. It is a demonstration of | 2:18:36 | 2:18:45 | |
our affective soft power and
something we should use and I hope | 2:18:45 | 2:18:48 | |
we will do. I hope very much in this
bill will become law speedily. My | 2:18:48 | 2:18:57 | |
lords, I would like to thank the
noble lady who agreed some ten years | 2:18:57 | 2:19:04 | |
ago when I asked her to become my
mentors and has remained a hero for | 2:19:04 | 2:19:10 | |
me all of my working life. I was
astounded to hear and read that it | 2:19:10 | 2:19:18 | |
was possible for someone who has
committed acts of corruption, that | 2:19:18 | 2:19:25 | |
even in Iran were regarded as
unacceptable to come to this country | 2:19:25 | 2:19:32 | |
where a moment ago we were fighting
for the right of immigrants who have | 2:19:32 | 2:19:39 | |
committed no crimes to Compton to
this country. It seems to be a | 2:19:39 | 2:19:44 | |
contradiction is extraordinary. How
is it possible to think that there | 2:19:44 | 2:19:50 | |
are laws that allow criminals to
come to this country, to bring their | 2:19:50 | 2:19:58 | |
money here and to London that? All
my life I thought that by coming to | 2:19:58 | 2:20:05 | |
Britain I would have left behind
corruptions of that kind and gross | 2:20:05 | 2:20:15 | |
financial indecency. I came to this
country because I thought that the | 2:20:15 | 2:20:19 | |
laws were straight, because we knew
what was happening, because we could | 2:20:19 | 2:20:23 | |
trust the banks and we would now
that this country would protect | 2:20:23 | 2:20:30 | |
those who are needy but would
certainly not offer a haven for | 2:20:30 | 2:20:35 | |
those who are going to abuse their
positions. It seems to me | 2:20:35 | 2:20:44 | |
unacceptable and I beg that we
change this attitude, because it is | 2:20:44 | 2:20:48 | |
dishonourable for me to think that
it's acceptable in this country. To | 2:20:48 | 2:20:58 | |
allow the kind of corruption that
has been rife in many countries, | 2:20:58 | 2:21:05 | |
that we have considered undesirable.
Please, my words. My lords, I start | 2:21:05 | 2:21:15 | |
by welcoming and congratulating the
noble Baroness on bringing this bill | 2:21:15 | 2:21:21 | |
to the floor of the House. She has
many admirers across all sides of | 2:21:21 | 2:21:26 | |
this House and I fully endorse the
words earlier one from my noble | 2:21:26 | 2:21:32 | |
friend, all very eloquently and so
simply reminding us all why we all | 2:21:32 | 2:21:36 | |
admire her so much. I also speak in
support of this bill but as I speak, | 2:21:36 | 2:21:44 | |
lower down the order, it's not often
that I can say this but I possibly | 2:21:44 | 2:21:48 | |
fully endorse all comments made by
old noble Lords on all sides of the | 2:21:48 | 2:21:52 | |
House. And by doing that, it means I
don't have to speak for as long as I | 2:21:52 | 2:21:59 | |
have. I welcome and congratulate the
Government on adopting the clause to | 2:21:59 | 2:22:05 | |
the criminal finances act which was
brought in the first part of the | 2:22:05 | 2:22:09 | |
Magnitsky act. But this doesn't go
far enough. And it's right, as my | 2:22:09 | 2:22:17 | |
honourable friend said, we need to
make the UK a hostile environment | 2:22:17 | 2:22:22 | |
for those seeking to move, hide and
use the process of crime and | 2:22:22 | 2:22:28 | |
corruption in an increasingly
competitive international | 2:22:28 | 2:22:32 | |
marketplace, the UK simply cannot
afford to be seen as a haven for | 2:22:32 | 2:22:36 | |
dirty money. But we need to go
further than that. We must not be a | 2:22:36 | 2:22:43 | |
haven for human rights violations.
The law this bill would create has | 2:22:43 | 2:22:48 | |
widespread support in this House.
The polling that has been done shows | 2:22:48 | 2:22:53 | |
it has popular support in the United
Kingdom and support across the | 2:22:53 | 2:22:57 | |
political divide and is in tune with
what has happened in the United | 2:22:57 | 2:23:01 | |
States, Canada and other European
countries. In the House of Commons | 2:23:01 | 2:23:05 | |
over five years ago, a motion was
unanimously passed calling for Visa | 2:23:05 | 2:23:10 | |
and economic restrictions on Russian
officials on the crimes covered by | 2:23:10 | 2:23:17 | |
Magnitsky and since his death. The
foreign affairs select committee | 2:23:17 | 2:23:23 | |
should the list of banned human
rights violations with reference to | 2:23:23 | 2:23:26 | |
the Magnitsky case. My lords, the
Baroness has also referred to the | 2:23:26 | 2:23:32 | |
Home Secretary overarching power to
remove those whose presence in the | 2:23:32 | 2:23:37 | |
UK would not be conducive to public
good. And then you may ask, what is | 2:23:37 | 2:23:43 | |
the need for the law? But those
plans are really published, often | 2:23:43 | 2:23:51 | |
when asked neither confirmed nor
denied. There is no meaning or | 2:23:51 | 2:23:55 | |
shaming, no knowing who is here and
who has been allowed in here and now | 2:23:55 | 2:24:02 | |
light is shed on those who operated
in dark ways. When dealing with the | 2:24:02 | 2:24:07 | |
financial provisions we now have, it
was said that this message would | 2:24:07 | 2:24:10 | |
send a clear statement is that the
UK would not stand by and allow | 2:24:10 | 2:24:14 | |
those who have committed a gross
abuse around the world to launder | 2:24:14 | 2:24:19 | |
the money here. I would argue that
we need to send a similarly strong | 2:24:19 | 2:24:25 | |
signal in relation to the presence
of these individuals in the UK. We | 2:24:25 | 2:24:29 | |
said that we don't want your money
here, we need to say we don't want | 2:24:29 | 2:24:34 | |
you here either. But this bill must
not limit itself to the specific and | 2:24:34 | 2:24:39 | |
appalling circumstances as the House
has heard about the death of Sergei | 2:24:39 | 2:24:44 | |
Magnitsky even if it is motivated by
that, this bill must be universally | 2:24:44 | 2:24:48 | |
applied. | 2:24:48 | 2:25:00 | |
An act was passed in 2012 to deal
with the particular case. It | 2:25:00 | 2:25:05 | |
authorised the President at a time
when we had a president in the US, | 2:25:05 | 2:25:12 | |
when human rights mattered somewhat. | 2:25:12 | 2:25:23 | |
A similar broad act should be
adopted by us. Every day, we see the | 2:25:26 | 2:25:34 | |
most he knows human rights abuses
committed around the world, by the | 2:25:34 | 2:25:37 | |
sofa called -- so-called respectable
and powerful politicians. Burma has | 2:25:37 | 2:25:47 | |
been a horrific case in recent
months. Why must we always in the | 2:25:47 | 2:26:00 | |
long-term seek to bring these
perpetrators to justice, either in | 2:26:00 | 2:26:06 | |
their home countries, or in the
former international... In the | 2:26:06 | 2:26:11 | |
future, we must send out the signal
that it cannot be business as usual. | 2:26:11 | 2:26:16 | |
Our commitment to human rights must
be clearly visible when people seek | 2:26:16 | 2:26:20 | |
to enter the United Kingdom. This
bill, extending... Then Britain will | 2:26:20 | 2:26:35 | |
not be a place where you can do
business, if your total income to | 2:26:35 | 2:26:38 | |
study here, you're not be at your
graduations, if you have blood on | 2:26:38 | 2:26:42 | |
your hands, you will not be doing
your Christmas shopping at Harrods. | 2:26:42 | 2:26:47 | |
My Lords, only as here today, this
has has been discussing refugees and | 2:26:47 | 2:26:51 | |
family reunion. We have, quite
rightly, been a haven for those that | 2:26:51 | 2:26:57 | |
flee from human rights violations
and abuse. My Lords, we must never | 2:26:57 | 2:27:02 | |
become a haven for those that commit
such abuse. My Lords, can I join | 2:27:02 | 2:27:10 | |
every other Speaker in the House in
congratulating the noble lady | 2:27:10 | 2:27:14 | |
Baroness for moving this for
bringing this bill to the floor this | 2:27:14 | 2:27:25 | |
has, and I will join her every step
in the way in ensuring that we get | 2:27:25 | 2:27:29 | |
every support we can to make this
pass. I need to declare, and a | 2:27:29 | 2:27:35 | |
category two for the registries and
members interests, my role as a | 2:27:35 | 2:27:41 | |
enumerator chat of the five rights
campaign, which is the new human | 2:27:41 | 2:27:47 | |
rights campaign. The bill is very
timely,... | 2:27:47 | 2:28:05 | |
This went a step further than the
Magnitsky act. We should be proud | 2:28:09 | 2:28:25 | |
that we are trying to move anything
direction today. This bill will | 2:28:25 | 2:28:32 | |
bring clarity and give teeth to the
travel ban aspect which is currently | 2:28:32 | 2:28:36 | |
missing. My Lords, I too have the
privilege, and take inspiration from | 2:28:36 | 2:28:47 | |
his courageous leadership, which is
so frequently absent from commercial | 2:28:47 | 2:28:49 | |
light. I worked for the Commonwealth
Secretariat, particularly | 2:28:49 | 2:28:58 | |
responsible for its good governance
human rights and democracy aspects. | 2:28:58 | 2:29:04 | |
That was in the late 1990ss into the
early 2000s. Robert Mugabe was | 2:29:04 | 2:29:16 | |
committing hedonists human rights
violations. -- keenness. In the we | 2:29:16 | 2:29:28 | |
had verification, yet, we sat there,
in utter and complete frustration, | 2:29:28 | 2:29:37 | |
as international tools, and
international law, as well as United | 2:29:37 | 2:29:39 | |
Kingdom law did not provide us with
any ability to stop Robert Mugabe, | 2:29:39 | 2:29:45 | |
his henchmen, and his wife coming to
the UK, for medical treatment, or | 2:29:45 | 2:29:50 | |
more likely, to spend their ill
gotten gains in our high-end stores | 2:29:50 | 2:29:56 | |
in this capital city. In other
country -- another country that is a | 2:29:56 | 2:30:01 | |
useful example, is in Pakistan,
where a person who is thought to | 2:30:01 | 2:30:07 | |
have committed a huge number of
human rights violations, while | 2:30:07 | 2:30:11 | |
living in self-imposed XL in London,
these were human rights violations | 2:30:11 | 2:30:16 | |
that he sanctioned from London, and
he was known as a person of | 2:30:16 | 2:30:23 | |
interest, to UK law enforcement.
There were a minimum of 31 charges | 2:30:23 | 2:30:29 | |
against him. -- within Pakistan in
self, on murder, money-laundering, | 2:30:29 | 2:30:39 | |
and multiple other abuses. Yet, he
was able to preside over this, and | 2:30:39 | 2:30:44 | |
interfere in Pakistani politics with
immunity. He was running something | 2:30:44 | 2:30:52 | |
again to spectre as they bond
movement from -- a Bond movie. My | 2:30:52 | 2:31:14 | |
Lords, if this bill had been in
place, that did not have happened. | 2:31:14 | 2:31:19 | |
It's tarnished the reputation of the
United Kingdom. Now, Clause 1.2 of | 2:31:19 | 2:31:25 | |
the bill, which refers to section of
the Proceeds of Crime Act, is | 2:31:25 | 2:31:34 | |
medically important, as it defines
unlawful conduct more broadly. The | 2:31:34 | 2:31:37 | |
UK has long had a reputation for
allowing financial crime, as well as | 2:31:37 | 2:31:46 | |
welcoming people who have ill gotten
gains, but this does not just | 2:31:46 | 2:31:51 | |
includes the developing world, but
it covers many other states as well. | 2:31:51 | 2:31:57 | |
As far as I know, London is one of
the few cities in the world which | 2:31:57 | 2:32:01 | |
had a black dockers see bus tour. I
understand the organisers are | 2:32:01 | 2:32:09 | |
planning to expand that to New York
shortly. I took this bus tour. It | 2:32:09 | 2:32:21 | |
was not a pretty sight. I suggest,
that other noble lord in this house | 2:32:21 | 2:32:28 | |
take this bus tour, it takes from
Whitehill place. It takes little | 2:32:28 | 2:32:33 | |
more than two hours, but it will
provide a real insight into who owns | 2:32:33 | 2:32:41 | |
London, our capital, and home to
Europe's largest financial services | 2:32:41 | 2:32:46 | |
sector. I know that corruption and
money-laundering is not in itself a | 2:32:46 | 2:32:55 | |
gross human rights violation, but,
the two things often go hand in | 2:32:55 | 2:32:58 | |
hand, with those that are grossly
corrupt often outsourcing the | 2:32:58 | 2:33:03 | |
intimidation, torture and supposed
murder, two others in order to | 2:33:03 | 2:33:08 | |
Ireland's public officials who
cannot be brought up by them. If one | 2:33:08 | 2:33:14 | |
superimposes human rights violations
into a map of corruption in Russia, | 2:33:14 | 2:33:19 | |
it is the same stakes that come up.
And, that applies to other regions | 2:33:19 | 2:33:24 | |
of the world, as well. And, there is
secrecy at Government level, here in | 2:33:24 | 2:33:29 | |
the UK, that allows and the public,
to never be clear on what basis the | 2:33:29 | 2:33:34 | |
wrongdoers are here in the UK. We
see that the Minister, of State for | 2:33:34 | 2:33:40 | |
security and immigration, James
Brokenshire, stated in response to a | 2:33:40 | 2:33:45 | |
written P Q... This is what the bill
will throw light on. We can't allow | 2:33:45 | 2:34:00 | |
that to continue. It suggests that
the Government prefers to continue | 2:34:00 | 2:34:05 | |
dealing with shady people on the
basis... Presumably on the basis | 2:34:05 | 2:34:08 | |
because they are posted people on
tarmac in power. My Lords, I know | 2:34:08 | 2:34:16 | |
that this is not a foreign affairs
debate, but I would only say that if | 2:34:16 | 2:34:20 | |
she had heard the condemnation of
Saudi Arabia on the 16th of November | 2:34:20 | 2:34:24 | |
in the statement of the Yemen, she
would know what I was talking about. | 2:34:24 | 2:34:29 | |
The Iraq of gross hypocrisy of the
-- the era of gross hypocrisy on the | 2:34:29 | 2:34:38 | |
part of governments is over. | 2:34:38 | 2:34:49 | |
Legislators request that additional
names be added, evidence can be | 2:34:53 | 2:34:57 | |
obtained from US and non-US sources.
This is important, as those on the | 2:34:57 | 2:35:02 | |
ground in this right violating
states are best informed of the | 2:35:02 | 2:35:06 | |
facts. We often find the countries
hide behind the fees that we will | 2:35:06 | 2:35:12 | |
leave the sanctions regime to be
implemented at EU level. Well, I am | 2:35:12 | 2:35:17 | |
highly the boredom of smart
sanctions, we also need to see our | 2:35:17 | 2:35:21 | |
own country rising to that
challenge. This bill would improve | 2:35:21 | 2:35:25 | |
and fast tracked the ability of UK
authorities themselves to take | 2:35:25 | 2:35:29 | |
action where international bodies
have not reached agreement, or are | 2:35:29 | 2:35:33 | |
too slow to respond. In conclusion,
my lord, I urge the Government to | 2:35:33 | 2:35:37 | |
support this bill. 2018 will be the
70th anniversary of the universal | 2:35:37 | 2:35:43 | |
declaration on human rights. It will
be the year when the UK hosts the | 2:35:43 | 2:35:52 | |
Commonwealth Heads of Government
Meeting. It will be the first time | 2:35:52 | 2:35:54 | |
that the UK will have that role this
entry. My Lords, in posts Brexit | 2:35:54 | 2:36:01 | |
Britain and Ireland, what a powerful
signal it would be, if the | 2:36:01 | 2:36:04 | |
Government follows Canada's example
and incorporated this bill into law | 2:36:04 | 2:36:13 | |
in April 2000 18. My lord, as others
have, I congratulate the noble lady | 2:36:13 | 2:36:20 | |
Baroness Kennedy, bringing forward
this bill. She is a hero, and I am | 2:36:20 | 2:36:23 | |
proud to regard her as a friend. She
is a crusader. In his crusade, it is | 2:36:23 | 2:36:29 | |
clear that all sides of the House
supporter. This debate is not about | 2:36:29 | 2:36:34 | |
whether or not human rights abuse
take place. We know that they do. We | 2:36:34 | 2:36:38 | |
appalled them. And if we appalled
them. That is not enough. This is | 2:36:38 | 2:36:50 | |
about what we can do to punish
those. Earlier this week, I was | 2:36:50 | 2:36:56 | |
lucky enough to meet bail. A fellow
guest at dinner, I asked him if he | 2:36:56 | 2:37:01 | |
was afraid for his life. A
reasonable question, given what | 2:37:01 | 2:37:08 | |
happened to Alexander in the London
hotel. But, he is remarkably | 2:37:08 | 2:37:14 | |
sanguine about the possibility of
encountering a fatal dose of | 2:37:14 | 2:37:18 | |
polonium in his tea. He is far too
engaged in his absolute passion for | 2:37:18 | 2:37:27 | |
addressing what we have done to his
lawyer. A young man who was | 2:37:27 | 2:37:32 | |
determined to see the right thing
done. That is what we are debating, | 2:37:32 | 2:37:38 | |
today, really, whether we in this
country should join him in the fight | 2:37:38 | 2:37:42 | |
against what Russia did to Sergei
Magnitsky, and what other countries | 2:37:42 | 2:37:48 | |
do to her other people round the
world. His book, is a remarkable | 2:37:48 | 2:38:01 | |
read, and I am happy to offer mind
to anybody who is interested in | 2:38:01 | 2:38:06 | |
reading it. It is a terrifying
Chronicle, of what can go on when, | 2:38:06 | 2:38:12 | |
as he puts it, a regime becomes a
criminal enterprise, wielding all | 2:38:12 | 2:38:17 | |
the power of a sovereign state.
Russia is not the only country for | 2:38:17 | 2:38:23 | |
which this description is
appropriate. We need to stand up | 2:38:23 | 2:38:26 | |
against there's reaching is -- bad
regimes, and in particular, those | 2:38:26 | 2:38:36 | |
who exert power within them. As we
have heard today, some of those who | 2:38:36 | 2:38:40 | |
might be outside the regimes, where
their wilful abuse is being | 2:38:40 | 2:38:44 | |
perpetrated on their behalf. This
country has, as we have had, | 2:38:44 | 2:38:51 | |
introduced a ban, but this bill goes
further, and gives us power to | 2:38:51 | 2:38:55 | |
refuse entry and named the criminals
who have benefited from their | 2:38:55 | 2:39:00 | |
crimes. We know that the UK is a
magnet for people with money, and we | 2:39:00 | 2:39:06 | |
have heard, the sort of things that
they like to do here with their | 2:39:06 | 2:39:09 | |
cash. Those who perpetrate human
rights abuses all too often seem to | 2:39:09 | 2:39:14 | |
reap rich rewards from their crime,
and they seek to spend them on | 2:39:14 | 2:39:18 | |
luxuries in the west. We should do
our very best to stop them. They | 2:39:18 | 2:39:27 | |
like to make use of health services,
they like to make use of luxury | 2:39:27 | 2:39:32 | |
hotels, they like to get the best
education for their children. We | 2:39:32 | 2:39:39 | |
shouldn't be making it easy for them
to do that. Yesterday, a television | 2:39:39 | 2:39:45 | |
reporter who has decided that she
will stand against Putin any | 2:39:45 | 2:39:48 | |
election in March next year, said,
people understand that being an | 2:39:48 | 2:39:55 | |
opposition figure in Russia means
either you get killed, or jailed, or | 2:39:55 | 2:40:00 | |
something like that. She was
remarkably matter of fact about it. | 2:40:00 | 2:40:06 | |
That is how things are in Russia. We
need to demonstrate, that we will | 2:40:06 | 2:40:12 | |
not condone such behaviour. My Lord,
as a result of the author's efforts, | 2:40:12 | 2:40:22 | |
more than 40 Russians have been
named and shamed in the US. We could | 2:40:22 | 2:40:27 | |
do that too. If we support this
bill, we will be following rather | 2:40:27 | 2:40:32 | |
than leading, not the best position
to be, but nevertheless, we should | 2:40:32 | 2:40:36 | |
follow. Our Government, seems
remarkably sanguine about the fact | 2:40:36 | 2:40:41 | |
that Russia was actively involved in
trying to influence the result of | 2:40:41 | 2:40:47 | |
our referendum. I find that an
insult to democracy. But, more than | 2:40:47 | 2:40:54 | |
anything, I am opposed to the sort
of abuses of human rights that are | 2:40:54 | 2:41:01 | |
heaped upon people like Sergei
Magnitsky. We need to support this | 2:41:01 | 2:41:04 | |
bill, and fight back. | 2:41:04 | 2:41:12 | |
My lords, I also would like to
congratulate the noble Baroness. She | 2:41:12 | 2:41:18 | |
has an ability to make the issues
which she espouses very real to | 2:41:18 | 2:41:30 | |
those who listen to her. Like other
noble Lords, I have spotted the | 2:41:30 | 2:41:36 | |
paradox between spending a couple of
hours discussing, allowing refugees | 2:41:36 | 2:41:44 | |
family and children who are by
themselves seeking sanctuary in the | 2:41:44 | 2:41:48 | |
UK and without this Bill, they will
not be able to keep out some very | 2:41:48 | 2:41:56 | |
bad and wealthy people who buy
multi-million pound apartments, and | 2:41:56 | 2:42:05 | |
have all the benefits of our society
when their presence here is so | 2:42:05 | 2:42:12 | |
offensive. I also recall the
amendment to the criminal finances | 2:42:12 | 2:42:18 | |
Bill and unlike other noble Lords,
it has led me to read Bill Browder's | 2:42:18 | 2:42:25 | |
book. I feel we are going to be
Pro14 an awful lot of books, our way | 2:42:25 | 2:42:32 | |
by others who see that we do
sometimes read them, and my reaction | 2:42:32 | 2:42:40 | |
is often not to want to. But it is
such a powerful description of what | 2:42:40 | 2:42:45 | |
led to his campaign for what one
might hope would be the Magnitsky | 2:42:45 | 2:42:54 | |
Amendment number one of which this
Bill is at two. A drawback of being | 2:42:54 | 2:43:00 | |
such a good read is that it is
difficult to remember that it is | 2:43:00 | 2:43:05 | |
fact, not fiction, that is the
content, but the fiction is | 2:43:05 | 2:43:10 | |
terrifying. In my Bill, one refugees
earlier this morning, the debate | 2:43:10 | 2:43:21 | |
focused very much on how we wish our
country to be and how we wish it to | 2:43:21 | 2:43:29 | |
be perceived. Human rights should of
course by definition be enjoyed by | 2:43:29 | 2:43:35 | |
every human being but equally, every
human being, no matter how powerful | 2:43:35 | 2:43:46 | |
should observe them and apply them.
Transparency is a very important | 2:43:46 | 2:43:50 | |
factor in that and so I
enthusiastically support this Bill. | 2:43:50 | 2:43:56 | |
I have one tiny observation with
regard to enforcement, which was | 2:43:56 | 2:44:06 | |
raised by the noble lord, and that
is to ask whether immigration | 2:44:06 | 2:44:10 | |
officers should have the powers
without ministerial approval. I am | 2:44:10 | 2:44:20 | |
not always enthusiastic about giving
extra powers to the Home Secretary | 2:44:20 | 2:44:24 | |
and there is an issue around whether
this might amount to political | 2:44:24 | 2:44:31 | |
intervention in human rights issue,
but I believe in the US the | 2:44:31 | 2:44:38 | |
president is required to submit the
Magnitsky list to the appropriate | 2:44:38 | 2:44:44 | |
congressional committee. I simply
raise this as a process issue, not | 2:44:44 | 2:44:53 | |
in any way opposition. I wish this
Bill well, I think it will get a | 2:44:53 | 2:45:00 | |
better reception from the Government
than my beloved dude. Dilip -- my | 2:45:00 | 2:45:07 | |
Bill did. I want to congratulate my
honourable friend on this Bill, on | 2:45:07 | 2:45:16 | |
which she has been so writes the
present which has so far has the | 2:45:16 | 2:45:20 | |
support of all speakers in this
debate. This Bill enables the | 2:45:20 | 2:45:26 | |
refusal of entry or leave to remain
in the UK to non-UK are non-EEA | 2:45:26 | 2:45:36 | |
nationals who are known to be
perhaps been involved in gross human | 2:45:36 | 2:45:41 | |
rights abuses. One cause defines
conduct violation as the Proceeds of | 2:45:41 | 2:45:55 | |
Crime Act 2002, gross human rights
abuse of violation Ahmed. And as has | 2:45:55 | 2:46:03 | |
already been said, the section of
the Proceeds of Crime Act that | 2:46:03 | 2:46:09 | |
currently stands was inserted into
that Act as a result of the | 2:46:09 | 2:46:12 | |
amendment to the criminal finances
Bill 2017 during its passage through | 2:46:12 | 2:46:19 | |
the House of Commons. The amendment
was referred to as the Magnitsky | 2:46:19 | 2:46:23 | |
amendment after the Russian lawyer,
accountant and whistle-blower of | 2:46:23 | 2:46:29 | |
that name who died in prison in
Moscow in 2009. He had uncovered an | 2:46:29 | 2:46:36 | |
alleged $230 million theft by
Russian tax officials who siphoned | 2:46:36 | 2:46:43 | |
off money to see new Russian
Government officials. After going | 2:46:43 | 2:46:46 | |
public in 2008 with his claims, he
was arrested by those whose crimes | 2:46:46 | 2:46:51 | |
he had uncovered, imprisoned and
tortured prior to his death in | 2:46:51 | 2:46:56 | |
prison, which was shortly before the
end of the one-year term during | 2:46:56 | 2:46:59 | |
which he could legally be held
without trial. The amendment to the | 2:46:59 | 2:47:03 | |
criminal finances Bill in 2070 made
provision for asset freezing for | 2:47:03 | 2:47:08 | |
those involved in gross human rights
abuse but there is still no primary | 2:47:08 | 2:47:15 | |
legislation that deals with Visa
bands for perpetrators of human | 2:47:15 | 2:47:18 | |
rights violations. In 2012, the
United States Congress passed the | 2:47:18 | 2:47:25 | |
Magnitsky Act, which enabled the US
Government to ban visas and bar | 2:47:25 | 2:47:32 | |
people from using the US banking
system with individuals connected to | 2:47:32 | 2:47:36 | |
the case. Then 2016, the Government
approved the global Axa, which | 2:47:36 | 2:47:45 | |
expanded the scope from Russians
citizens to individuals who have | 2:47:45 | 2:47:51 | |
participated in or benefited from
corruption or human rights abuses in | 2:47:51 | 2:47:53 | |
any country. Similar provisions have
been adopted in the past two years | 2:47:53 | 2:47:59 | |
in the stolen, Canada and Lithuania
and are currently under development | 2:47:59 | 2:48:05 | |
in other countries, including France
and South Africa. There have been | 2:48:05 | 2:48:09 | |
questions here in Parliament asking
the Government what action it was | 2:48:09 | 2:48:12 | |
taken to reform immigration rules to
address the situation where those in | 2:48:12 | 2:48:17 | |
positions of power in Russia are
stealing money in that country and | 2:48:17 | 2:48:23 | |
are able to spend or hide it through
the purchase of expensive property | 2:48:23 | 2:48:27 | |
in London or through having their
children in the UK for their | 2:48:27 | 2:48:30 | |
education. The Government's responds
to date has been that the current | 2:48:30 | 2:48:37 | |
immigration rules provide adequate
scope to deny entry to perpetrators | 2:48:37 | 2:48:43 | |
of human rights abuses on the basis
that if there is evidence that their | 2:48:43 | 2:48:47 | |
presence would not be considered
conducive to the public good, and | 2:48:47 | 2:48:50 | |
individual can't be denied entry to
the UK as they would have bought | 2:48:50 | 2:48:54 | |
themselves within grounds for
general refusal. The grounds state | 2:48:54 | 2:49:07 | |
that entry should be refused to a
person who is the subject of a | 2:49:07 | 2:49:10 | |
deportation order your food has been
convicted of any offence to which | 2:49:10 | 2:49:14 | |
they have been converted to a period
of imprisonment. The rules also make | 2:49:14 | 2:49:19 | |
provision for refusing entry to a
person on the grounds that their | 2:49:19 | 2:49:23 | |
conduct, character and association
make their exclusion conducive to | 2:49:23 | 2:49:26 | |
the public good either on the
direction of the secretary of state | 2:49:26 | 2:49:31 | |
or by an immigration officer. The
Home Office guidance to immigration | 2:49:31 | 2:49:38 | |
officials is that if an individual
is suspected of crimes against | 2:49:38 | 2:49:42 | |
humanity, if it is beneficial to the
public could not to let a person | 2:49:42 | 2:49:50 | |
into the UK, you must consider
refusal of entry. It is mandatory | 2:49:50 | 2:49:57 | |
where a prisoner suspected of war
crimes or crimes against humanity. | 2:49:57 | 2:50:01 | |
Could the noble lady and ministers
say how many people have been | 2:50:01 | 2:50:07 | |
refused leave to enter and leave to
remain in this country with | 2:50:07 | 2:50:12 | |
anonymity on the grounds that they
has committed close human rights | 2:50:12 | 2:50:17 | |
abuses and violations under terms of
the current violation rules which | 2:50:17 | 2:50:22 | |
respect to war crimes or crimes
against United? The suspicion is | 2:50:22 | 2:50:26 | |
that this para, under immigration
rules, which the Government claims | 2:50:26 | 2:50:36 | |
is effective, is not being used to
any practice even though the 2016 | 2:50:36 | 2:50:40 | |
report by the whole typical home
affairs committee referred to money | 2:50:40 | 2:50:48 | |
being laundered through UK banks
each year. That would indicate that | 2:50:48 | 2:50:53 | |
present immigration rules are not
fit for purpose or not as fit for | 2:50:53 | 2:50:57 | |
purpose as they might be on the
issue of denying entry to removing | 2:50:57 | 2:51:02 | |
perpetrators of gross human rights
abuses and naming such abusers. The | 2:51:02 | 2:51:07 | |
need for specific statutory
provision against abuses in the form | 2:51:07 | 2:51:12 | |
provided for in this Bill is both
overdue and clear-cut. We need to | 2:51:12 | 2:51:16 | |
show in very specific terms to be
clear primary statutory provision | 2:51:16 | 2:51:22 | |
that those who commit such abuses
and violations of human rights will | 2:51:22 | 2:51:25 | |
not enjoy the freedom to enter and
remain in this country, including | 2:51:25 | 2:51:30 | |
for the purposes of spending their
stolen money from criminal | 2:51:30 | 2:51:35 | |
activities with which such abuses
and violations, as in the Magnitsky | 2:51:35 | 2:51:40 | |
case, often associated. | 2:51:40 | 2:51:51 | |
May I thank the noble lady for
bringing forward of this debate. | 2:51:54 | 2:52:01 | |
Many noble Lords, including my noble
friend, have all mentioned that they | 2:52:01 | 2:52:16 | |
have read the book as have I and the
word compelling, and if it was | 2:52:16 | 2:52:25 | |
fiction, it would certainly be a
bestseller, do come to mind. I know | 2:52:25 | 2:52:29 | |
that the noble lady wasn't present
for much of the criminal finances | 2:52:29 | 2:52:36 | |
Bill but she may be interested to
read this section to which she | 2:52:36 | 2:52:40 | |
referred to as part one today
because I think there was some very | 2:52:40 | 2:52:46 | |
compelling debate at that juncture
and she may also, a very recent | 2:52:46 | 2:52:56 | |
announcement, but my right
honourable friend the Home Secretary | 2:52:56 | 2:52:59 | |
announced a very recently the
setting up of the National economic | 2:52:59 | 2:53:05 | |
crime Centre for the UK, which
brings together all the agencies to | 2:53:05 | 2:53:13 | |
certainly tackle serious fraud and
economic crime that takes place. | 2:53:13 | 2:53:18 | |
This Bill seeks to provide for the
refusal and curtailment of leave | 2:53:18 | 2:53:23 | |
where a person is known to be or
have been involved in gross human | 2:53:23 | 2:53:28 | |
rights abuses. The Government is
committed to improving human rights | 2:53:28 | 2:53:33 | |
across the world by holding states
accountable for their human rights | 2:53:33 | 2:53:38 | |
records and we do take a very strong
stance against individuals who are | 2:53:38 | 2:53:43 | |
known to have committed gross abuses
and violations. I absolutely commend | 2:53:43 | 2:53:48 | |
the noble Lady Baroness Kennedy's
wished to wash to protect our | 2:53:48 | 2:53:56 | |
borders from such individuals. She
and my noble friend 's' point have | 2:53:56 | 2:54:09 | |
thoughts about the naming of
individuals. There are compelling | 2:54:09 | 2:54:15 | |
reasons why individuals that should
be named and shamed, but the | 2:54:15 | 2:54:17 | |
Government has always stated that it
won't name individuals and that is | 2:54:17 | 2:54:21 | |
for this reason, that to do so would
alert those not named by their own | 2:54:21 | 2:54:28 | |
mission that they are of less
concern than those who are named, | 2:54:28 | 2:54:32 | |
and this may in fact not be the
case. So naming individuals may also | 2:54:32 | 2:54:38 | |
alert those named and not named as
to the level of information that the | 2:54:38 | 2:54:42 | |
Government holds on them. In terms
of the numbers that the noble lord | 2:54:42 | 2:54:51 | |
asked about, he will understand that
I can't give that number, but it is | 2:54:51 | 2:54:57 | |
always been the Government's
position that further legislation to | 2:54:57 | 2:55:02 | |
be warranted in this area, there
would need to be a real case that | 2:55:02 | 2:55:07 | |
existing powers were insufficient
and I hope that I can demonstrate | 2:55:07 | 2:55:10 | |
the provisions proposed in the Bill
remain unnecessary. | 2:55:10 | 2:55:13 | |
The government has a range of
measures that provide for robust | 2:55:16 | 2:55:20 | |
action to be taken against
individuals, notably involved in | 2:55:20 | 2:55:23 | |
human rights abuses. And obviously,
I can't comment on individual cases, | 2:55:23 | 2:55:31 | |
some of which are actually subject
to exclusion orders. I would like to | 2:55:31 | 2:55:36 | |
take noble Lords threw the policies
and procedures that we have in place | 2:55:36 | 2:55:38 | |
to prevent those involved in gross
abuses from coming to or securing an | 2:55:38 | 2:55:44 | |
immigration status in the UK.
The Home Secretary, as was pointed | 2:55:44 | 2:55:54 | |
out, has the power to exclude a
foreign national if she considers | 2:55:54 | 2:55:58 | |
that their presence in the UK would
not be conducive to the public good, | 2:55:58 | 2:56:01 | |
or if then exclusion is justified on
the grounds of public policy or | 2:56:01 | 2:56:07 | |
public security. A person may be
excluded for a range of reasons, | 2:56:07 | 2:56:13 | |
including national security,
criminality, involvement in war | 2:56:13 | 2:56:16 | |
crimes, and crimes against humanity,
corruption and unacceptable | 2:56:16 | 2:56:19 | |
behaviour. There's no on exclusion,
and a person who is excluded remain | 2:56:19 | 2:56:28 | |
so until the Home Secretary agrees
to lift that exclusion. This also | 2:56:28 | 2:56:33 | |
means that anyone excluded by the
Home Secretary, who applies the | 2:56:33 | 2:56:36 | |
entry clearance must be refused so
long as the exclusion remains in | 2:56:36 | 2:56:41 | |
force.
My Lords, such a power is serious, | 2:56:41 | 2:56:46 | |
and no decision is taken lightly,
all decisions have to be based on | 2:56:46 | 2:56:50 | |
sound evidence, and must be
fortunate, reasonable and | 2:56:50 | 2:56:54 | |
consistent. The noble Lord, Lord
Browne of Eaton under Heywood, | 2:56:54 | 2:56:57 | |
talked about the test threshold. My
lords, the noble Lord, of course, is | 2:56:57 | 2:57:06 | |
correct in his reference to the test
in the immigration rules, decisions | 2:57:06 | 2:57:10 | |
to exclude must only be taken on a
case of sound evidence. The UK | 2:57:10 | 2:57:16 | |
operates a watch list that is used
to flag individuals of concern, and | 2:57:16 | 2:57:20 | |
those known to be involved in human
rights abuses would be included on | 2:57:20 | 2:57:24 | |
that list. Noble lady, she talked
about excluding human rights | 2:57:24 | 2:57:37 | |
abusers, and it is already the case
that those involved in this sort of | 2:57:37 | 2:57:40 | |
shocking behaviour can be excluded,
contrary to the concerns of the | 2:57:40 | 2:57:47 | |
noble lady, but we can make an
express amendment to current | 2:57:47 | 2:57:51 | |
guidelines to make it absolutely
clear that the involvement in gross | 2:57:51 | 2:57:56 | |
human rights abuses will be grounds
for exclusion, that may be helpful. | 2:57:56 | 2:58:04 | |
The noble lady talked about officers
powers, as opposed to the democratic | 2:58:04 | 2:58:09 | |
process, but in conjunction, I think
she meant with the democratic | 2:58:09 | 2:58:13 | |
process. Border force officers
powers derived from the immigration | 2:58:13 | 2:58:20 | |
act of 1971, particularly those in
schedule two, to refuse an entry to | 2:58:20 | 2:58:26 | |
those that don't qualify for entry
to the UK. Yes, of course, the | 2:58:26 | 2:58:34 | |
democratic process, but I was also
concerned this would be unusual for | 2:58:34 | 2:58:37 | |
it not to be within a context of the
executors decision, that was what | 2:58:37 | 2:58:50 | |
concerned me.
Not something that had been unlikely | 2:58:50 | 2:58:52 | |
at Dover!
And I don't think I was making light | 2:58:52 | 2:58:56 | |
of the noble lady's point, I hope
she didn't think that. But my lords, | 2:58:56 | 2:59:01 | |
it is precisely because each
decision to make an exclusion order | 2:59:01 | 2:59:04 | |
is based on sound evidence and the
facts of each individual case that | 2:59:04 | 2:59:09 | |
it wouldn't be proportionate or
reasonable to exclude every national | 2:59:09 | 2:59:13 | |
of a particular country. The vast
majority of them will be law-abiding | 2:59:13 | 2:59:18 | |
citizens, and engaged in activity
which meets the threshold for | 2:59:18 | 2:59:22 | |
exclusion. I would also like to add
that the current sanctions regime | 2:59:22 | 2:59:28 | |
imposed by the UN Security Council
and the Council of the European | 2:59:28 | 2:59:31 | |
Union adds an additional layer of
protection, preventing non-EEA | 2:59:31 | 2:59:36 | |
nationals of concern from travelling
to the UK. International travel bans | 2:59:36 | 2:59:42 | |
apply to individuals associated with
regimes or groups whose behaviour it | 2:59:42 | 2:59:46 | |
is considered unacceptable by the
international community. Were an EEA | 2:59:46 | 2:59:51 | |
national or family member subject to
a UN or EU travel ban, we will | 2:59:51 | 2:59:57 | |
normally refuse admission to the UK
on the grounds of public policy or | 2:59:57 | 3:00:00 | |
public security. The immigration
rules provide for the refusal of | 3:00:00 | 3:00:06 | |
entry clearance, the refusal of
leave to enter, or to remain, and | 3:00:06 | 3:00:11 | |
the curtailment of leave to a
non-EEA national, where that person | 3:00:11 | 3:00:16 | |
has a criminal conviction, or on the
basis of their conduct, character or | 3:00:16 | 3:00:21 | |
associations, including where there
is an independent, reliable and | 3:00:21 | 3:00:24 | |
credible evidence of their
involvement in human rights abuses. | 3:00:24 | 3:00:28 | |
In the case of EEA nationals, we can
refuse admission to the UK when | 3:00:28 | 3:00:35 | |
public security is engaged. The
person must be shown to be a | 3:00:35 | 3:00:38 | |
genuine, present and sufficiently
serious threat to one of the | 3:00:38 | 3:00:42 | |
fundamental interests of our
society, except in exceptional | 3:00:42 | 3:00:48 | |
circumstances, a foreign national
subject to immigration control has | 3:00:48 | 3:00:51 | |
been convicted of a criminal offence
and sentenced to a period of | 3:00:51 | 3:00:56 | |
imprisonment faces a mandatory
refusal of these are all leave to | 3:00:56 | 3:00:59 | |
enter the UK for a specified period.
The length of the prison sentence | 3:00:59 | 3:01:04 | |
will determine the duration of the
ban from the UK. For those persons | 3:01:04 | 3:01:09 | |
given a prison sentence of four
years or more, an indefinite ban | 3:01:09 | 3:01:13 | |
will apply. Where a person has
received a sentence between 12 | 3:01:13 | 3:01:18 | |
months and four years, there is a
ten year ban. And for those persons | 3:01:18 | 3:01:22 | |
with a sentence of less than 12
months, there is a five-year ban. | 3:01:22 | 3:01:26 | |
This applies to those convicted in
the UK or overseas. My lords, the | 3:01:26 | 3:01:32 | |
government also recognises the
importance of distinguishing between | 3:01:32 | 3:01:35 | |
those entitled to come to the UK and
stay here, and those who are not, | 3:01:35 | 3:01:39 | |
and we have a number of measures to
assist with this. For those that | 3:01:39 | 3:01:43 | |
need a Beazer to come to the UK, the
application process requires the | 3:01:43 | 3:01:48 | |
applicant to declare any criminality
or immigration offence, and to | 3:01:48 | 3:01:51 | |
provide their facial image and
fingerprints as biometrics. Entry | 3:01:51 | 3:01:56 | |
clearance officers are required to
check a range of databases, | 3:01:56 | 3:02:00 | |
including the biometric Home Office
and police databases, and this | 3:02:00 | 3:02:03 | |
allows us to check details of any UK
criminal record, and identify | 3:02:03 | 3:02:08 | |
important information about the
applicant's immigration history, | 3:02:08 | 3:02:12 | |
including any travel ban or
exclusion order. And at the border, | 3:02:12 | 3:02:20 | |
my lords, we undertake similar
checks against police, security and | 3:02:20 | 3:02:22 | |
immigration watch lists, as I have
already said, to identify people of | 3:02:22 | 3:02:25 | |
concern. Border force officers can
and do refuse entry if they believe | 3:02:25 | 3:02:29 | |
a foreign national poses a risk.
Finally, the immigration rules | 3:02:29 | 3:02:34 | |
include provision for leave to
remain to be curtailed, and for | 3:02:34 | 3:02:38 | |
indefinitely to remain to be revoked
if we become aware of if a person | 3:02:38 | 3:02:43 | |
with leave with refugee status has
been involved in gross human rights | 3:02:43 | 3:02:48 | |
abuses. Where a person cannot be
removed from the UK, because it | 3:02:48 | 3:02:51 | |
would breach their human rights, we
will consider granting short periods | 3:02:51 | 3:02:56 | |
of restricted leave. I am grateful
for the opportunity to set out the | 3:02:56 | 3:03:00 | |
wide range of government powers, to
deal with those committing gross | 3:03:00 | 3:03:04 | |
human rights abuses, I don't think
the measures proposed by the noble | 3:03:04 | 3:03:09 | |
lady, Lady Kennedy, are necessary to
protect our borders from undesirable | 3:03:09 | 3:03:13 | |
individuals. I think the individual
framework prevents those involved in | 3:03:13 | 3:03:18 | |
gross human rights abuses from
entering the UK, and indeed, goes | 3:03:18 | 3:03:22 | |
further by injury we can consider an
applicant's complete background and | 3:03:22 | 3:03:26 | |
criminal history when deciding
whether or not to grant entry, but I | 3:03:26 | 3:03:32 | |
thank her for bringing this debate
to us today. | 3:03:32 | 3:03:41 | |
I want to thank everyone that has
participated in this debate in | 3:03:41 | 3:03:45 | |
support of this Bill, and until our
last Speaker, it was United, this | 3:03:45 | 3:03:52 | |
grouping, of speakers, in saying
that there is a need for this Bill. | 3:03:52 | 3:03:57 | |
This is not a question of simply
protecting our borders from | 3:03:57 | 3:04:02 | |
unpleasant persons, this is about
sending messages to the world that | 3:04:02 | 3:04:06 | |
there is no impunity for those who
commit crimes of inhumanity. It is | 3:04:06 | 3:04:10 | |
about making a statement to the
world about our views with regard to | 3:04:10 | 3:04:14 | |
human rights, and those who violate
them. I regret greatly that the | 3:04:14 | 3:04:19 | |
government doesn't see the potency
of having such a Bill on the statute | 3:04:19 | 3:04:23 | |
books. Let me thank those who
supported the purpose of this Bill. | 3:04:23 | 3:04:30 | |
I feel very privileged to be in this
House. I feel particularly | 3:04:30 | 3:04:34 | |
privileged, because it is right, I
have friends all around this House, | 3:04:34 | 3:04:38 | |
this isn't all the benches, they sit
over them. I See You all smiling at | 3:04:38 | 3:04:43 | |
me just now, and I am lucky to have
them, my friendships with people | 3:04:43 | 3:04:48 | |
around this House are sometimes
peppered with political difference | 3:04:48 | 3:04:51 | |
on subjects that we still enjoy, and
we still have great friendship. I | 3:04:51 | 3:04:58 | |
want it known to the world that you
are not his beating because of that | 3:04:58 | 3:05:02 | |
friendship, but because one of the
things that we share is our concern | 3:05:02 | 3:05:06 | |
for the rule of law, our concern for
justice. That has brought us | 3:05:06 | 3:05:12 | |
together today, those of supporting
this Bill. It is to say that | 3:05:12 | 3:05:16 | |
matters, and this is really
important, that we, Britain, we come | 3:05:16 | 3:05:21 | |
in the United Kingdom, take a stance
on human rights abuses that happen | 3:05:21 | 3:05:25 | |
around the world, and when we know
they happen, we should refuse entry | 3:05:25 | 3:05:29 | |
to people who have been party to
such egregious crimes. And it is | 3:05:29 | 3:05:36 | |
shaming, shaming on the government,
that we are not prepared to make | 3:05:36 | 3:05:40 | |
steps. Of course, I anticipated it
would be said that there are already | 3:05:40 | 3:05:44 | |
powers available to the Home
Secretary, but we know they are not | 3:05:44 | 3:05:48 | |
being used. We had Lord Trimble
referred to the ways in which we | 3:05:48 | 3:05:54 | |
have failed. We are now introducing
legislation with regard to those | 3:05:54 | 3:05:59 | |
committing fraud and so on. We are
here to talk about people who are | 3:05:59 | 3:06:04 | |
slaughtering and are prepared to
kill to maintain power. People who | 3:06:04 | 3:06:07 | |
are prepared to rape and to sanction
it by others. That is what is so | 3:06:07 | 3:06:12 | |
disgraceful about the failure of
government to make it clear to the | 3:06:12 | 3:06:15 | |
world what the messages in having
legislation of this kind. I say to | 3:06:15 | 3:06:22 | |
Baroness Faulkner, I was interested
to hear about your tour, and perhaps | 3:06:22 | 3:06:28 | |
you are going to have to
organisation or to take people from | 3:06:28 | 3:06:31 | |
this House, around London, to point
out the way in which dark money has | 3:06:31 | 3:06:38 | |
and is infecting our City and
nation, because people are coming | 3:06:38 | 3:06:44 | |
here because they know they can come
and enjoy impunity for the crimes | 3:06:44 | 3:06:48 | |
they have committed. We should be
ashamed, and I say, poor show, | 3:06:48 | 3:06:55 | |
government, that you are not
prepared to take this step. And as | 3:06:55 | 3:06:58 | |
for the business of saying, and
publishing names, that the Alderman | 3:06:58 | 3:07:02 | |
for that is that those who are not
named would therefore be on alert. | 3:07:02 | 3:07:08 | |
Those who are not named immediately
think, am I going to be on the list | 3:07:08 | 3:07:12 | |
tomorrow? Am I going to be on the
list in a month's time? It is an | 3:07:12 | 3:07:17 | |
persuasive to say this is a reason
for not publishing. It is because we | 3:07:17 | 3:07:21 | |
are providing cover for some of the
people unfortunately we do business | 3:07:21 | 3:07:24 | |
with. For reasons that are still not
good enough, when there are people | 3:07:24 | 3:07:31 | |
that have disgraceful pasts that
they are covering up. I wanted to | 3:07:31 | 3:07:36 | |
referred to Lord Browne's
intervention, and I want to thank | 3:07:36 | 3:07:38 | |
him for it. He is a truly great
lawyer, and he raised the important | 3:07:38 | 3:07:44 | |
issue on the standard of proof. What
I referred to in my speech is the | 3:07:44 | 3:07:50 | |
way in which, for example, there is
an independent United Nations panel | 3:07:50 | 3:07:55 | |
that looks to those who have
committed crimes, and does apply | 3:07:55 | 3:08:01 | |
careful standards, not basing it on
suspicion. But we can also look to | 3:08:01 | 3:08:13 | |
the International criminal Court,
which again, in its investigations, | 3:08:13 | 3:08:16 | |
draws up lists. There are ways of
doing this, and I accept we should | 3:08:16 | 3:08:21 | |
look, if we go further with this
Bill, and I do, we can look at ways | 3:08:21 | 3:08:25 | |
in which we can perfect that in the
Bill with amendments when we come to | 3:08:25 | 3:08:30 | |
committee stage.
I want to make it very clear to | 3:08:30 | 3:08:36 | |
government, there is no suggestion
of this being used against all | 3:08:36 | 3:08:40 | |
citizens of a country because it
claims itself to be a democracy. | 3:08:40 | 3:08:43 | |
That is not the purpose of this
Bill, the Bill is to deal with those | 3:08:43 | 3:08:47 | |
who are believed ship in places,
those that give sanction to this | 3:08:47 | 3:08:52 | |
kind of egregious crime, and it is
in no way dealing with those people, | 3:08:52 | 3:08:59 | |
who themselves are victims, because
they happen to be living in | 3:08:59 | 3:09:01 | |
countries where the leadership
behaves in these terrible ways. | 3:09:01 | 3:09:10 | |
Mention was made of the possibility
that something could be done with | 3:09:10 | 3:09:14 | |
the sanctions Bill. I would urge
that one Government. It may be that | 3:09:14 | 3:09:19 | |
Government can find some part of
that Bill that could be expanded to | 3:09:19 | 3:09:23 | |
cover this, although I suspect they
will be an unwillingness to do it. | 3:09:23 | 3:09:27 | |
This Bill can be perfected, I have
no doubt, but the purpose today is | 3:09:27 | 3:09:33 | |
to say, there should be a Bill and
that this Bill should be making it | 3:09:33 | 3:09:37 | |
very clear to the world that we
won't support the Magnitsky Act | 3:09:37 | 3:09:44 | |
which are coming into being in the
United States and Canada, not | 3:09:44 | 3:09:49 | |
countries that will be casually
introducing such legislation but | 3:09:49 | 3:09:52 | |
because the world needs to take
steps to prevent their being | 3:09:52 | 3:09:57 | |
impunity. I just want to finally say
that what we have seen, and I want | 3:09:57 | 3:10:05 | |
to reiterate what Lord Trimble said,
is that this is working and it has | 3:10:05 | 3:10:11 | |
been a long time in coming. We have
talked often over the years about | 3:10:11 | 3:10:16 | |
the ways in which international law
can be expressions of goodwill but | 3:10:16 | 3:10:20 | |
that was often does not able to be
enforced. It is not possible to | 3:10:20 | 3:10:27 | |
implement our good intentions. This
is a way of implementing our | 3:10:27 | 3:10:31 | |
intentions and it is a way of saying
to the world, you cannot come here, | 3:10:31 | 3:10:36 | |
you will not be able to go to the
United States or Canada or Latvia or | 3:10:36 | 3:10:41 | |
other nations who have signed up for
this. And I think we want to be in | 3:10:41 | 3:10:48 | |
there at the beginning, surely. I
want to thank everyone for | 3:10:48 | 3:10:52 | |
supporting me in this Bill and I
would ask that this Bill be given a | 3:10:52 | 3:10:56 | |
second reading. The contents have
it. I beg to move that it will be | 3:10:56 | 3:11:10 | |
committed to the whole House. As
many as are of the opinion, say | 3:11:10 | 3:11:15 | |
"aye". To the contrary, "no". The
content have it. Second reading of | 3:11:15 | 3:11:23 | |
the Government's local referendum
Bill, Lord Balfe. My lords, I beg to | 3:11:23 | 3:11:31 | |
move that this Bill be now read a
second time. Can I begin with a | 3:11:31 | 3:11:39 | |
couple of personal declarations?
Firstly, I am as of today still a | 3:11:39 | 3:11:45 | |
member of the Venice commission for
a democratic elections, which is a | 3:11:45 | 3:11:48 | |
body of the council partly funded by
the Council of Europe. I also have a | 3:11:48 | 3:11:55 | |
long history, a loss of form in this
particular area. It was some 45 | 3:11:55 | 3:12:02 | |
years ago that I became political
secretary of the Royal Arsenal | 3:12:02 | 3:12:09 | |
Co-op, where they used political
representation as a method in the | 3:12:09 | 3:12:13 | |
election. I saw the years that it
hadn't bringing many disparate | 3:12:13 | 3:12:19 | |
groups into the same body to form
the policies to carry the co-op for | 3:12:19 | 3:12:25 | |
road and a solid very clearly
because we used proportional | 3:12:25 | 3:12:32 | |
representation, the other big call
abuse first past the post, and they | 3:12:32 | 3:12:38 | |
spend nearly all of their time
fighting each other while we got | 3:12:38 | 3:12:41 | |
together and managed to work our way
forward. I should also declare an | 3:12:41 | 3:12:48 | |
interest that for many years until
circumstances intervened, I was a | 3:12:48 | 3:12:53 | |
member of the Labour campaign for
electoral reform and I would like to | 3:12:53 | 3:12:57 | |
thank them for slipping me a bit of
information which has helped with | 3:12:57 | 3:13:02 | |
today's debate. We still remain
friends, if not in the same party. | 3:13:02 | 3:13:06 | |
My contention is that if we look at
the last 15, 20 years, we have seen | 3:13:06 | 3:13:12 | |
a shift towards the uses of various
forms of proportional representation | 3:13:12 | 3:13:18 | |
in the election of bodies in the
United Kingdom which have | 3:13:18 | 3:13:27 | |
legislative duties. I base my
proposal, which is extremely modest, | 3:13:27 | 3:13:32 | |
all that asks is that the Secretary
of State brings forward a long and | 3:13:32 | 3:13:37 | |
it is indeed very similar, if not
modelled on the Welsh Government | 3:13:37 | 3:13:41 | |
proposal. Earlier this year, the
Welsh Government expressed its | 3:13:41 | 3:13:46 | |
belief, and I pulled, that
councillors should be able to decide | 3:13:46 | 3:13:51 | |
which voting system to use. And a
new consultation document, it said, | 3:13:51 | 3:13:58 | |
as such, the Welsh Government
proposes to make a legislation which | 3:13:58 | 3:14:02 | |
will allow councils in Wales to
decide which voting system best | 3:14:02 | 3:14:07 | |
reflects the need of their local
people and communities. And that is | 3:14:07 | 3:14:11 | |
all this will attempt to do. It
doesn't lay down the system, it | 3:14:11 | 3:14:19 | |
doesn't even say that local
authorities must change the system, | 3:14:19 | 3:14:23 | |
it's a progressive who and it's a
Bill with hurdles. But if I could | 3:14:23 | 3:14:29 | |
just look at the library brief, if
you look at the House of Lords in | 3:14:29 | 3:14:40 | |
January 2016, we see an argument
against PR, saying, it is often a | 3:14:40 | 3:14:46 | |
mishmash of policies hammered out
behind closed doors, which I argue | 3:14:46 | 3:14:52 | |
are not democratic. But Mike Speirs
of the stomach sees it as a policy | 3:14:52 | 3:14:57 | |
hammered as Britain and closed doors
and a mishmash because you tend to | 3:14:57 | 3:15:02 | |
find that whatever the political
grip is, it actually covers quite a | 3:15:02 | 3:15:06 | |
wide variety of opinions and
although on occasions, particularly | 3:15:06 | 3:15:12 | |
during the past coalition
Government, much was made of the | 3:15:12 | 3:15:16 | |
manifesto, I have to say that
throughout most of my political | 3:15:16 | 3:15:19 | |
life, the manifesto has not been the
guiding light and if it has, it was | 3:15:19 | 3:15:26 | |
used with discretion by people who
find bits of the manifesto that | 3:15:26 | 3:15:31 | |
happen to justify whatever they want
to do at any given time. I saw in | 3:15:31 | 3:15:37 | |
October 2017 there was a debate in
the House of Commons and the | 3:15:37 | 3:15:44 | |
Parliamentary Secretary of the
Cabinet Office said that first past | 3:15:44 | 3:15:49 | |
the post had an advantage because
it's less complicated, takes less | 3:15:49 | 3:15:53 | |
time and resources to administer and
is better understood by the | 3:15:53 | 3:15:58 | |
electorate. If it is better
understood, why is it that only 35% | 3:15:58 | 3:16:01 | |
of the people vote? Maybe what they
understand is that in most places, | 3:16:01 | 3:16:08 | |
their vote photos totally wasted.
I'm not sure that that level of | 3:16:08 | 3:16:14 | |
understanding is actually a
justification for keeping the system | 3:16:14 | 3:16:17 | |
in place. I would say that that
level of understanding is equally | 3:16:17 | 3:16:22 | |
argument for changing the system.
But my experience, both in the | 3:16:22 | 3:16:28 | |
Venice commission but also going
back to the 50 years I've been | 3:16:28 | 3:16:33 | |
around Government, is that parties
are very strongly addicted to the | 3:16:33 | 3:16:36 | |
system that helps them to win. The
number of times that I've been | 3:16:36 | 3:16:43 | |
involved in arguments in both of the
parties I've belonged to which have | 3:16:43 | 3:16:50 | |
actually boiled down to, how can we
get this through because it benefits | 3:16:50 | 3:16:55 | |
our party? Can we get this water
brought into the constituency | 3:16:55 | 3:17:00 | |
because it will probably vote one
way or the other way? Very seldom | 3:17:00 | 3:17:05 | |
are people saying, how can the
effect... Reflect the will of the | 3:17:05 | 3:17:12 | |
electorate, they generally say, how
can we ship it so that we will win? | 3:17:12 | 3:17:16 | |
One of the ways in which you see
this, frankly, is the way in which | 3:17:16 | 3:17:19 | |
local government itself is put
together. We have three member | 3:17:19 | 3:17:28 | |
awards. What on earth is the
intellectual justification for the | 3:17:28 | 3:17:30 | |
number three? Is it maybe a magic
Chinese number? I suggest, and all | 3:17:30 | 3:17:39 | |
the evidence I have talking to
people says, that the number three | 3:17:39 | 3:17:43 | |
is because that's big enough that
any local campaign will find it very | 3:17:43 | 3:17:47 | |
difficult to get elected. And that
is what happened in the area I live | 3:17:47 | 3:17:54 | |
in. I live in probably the most
expensive" in the city of Cambridge, | 3:17:54 | 3:17:58 | |
so clearly it is a safe Labour seat.
But it does contain some quite poor | 3:17:58 | 3:18:08 | |
areas and the paradox is that the
Conservatives often get their vote | 3:18:08 | 3:18:11 | |
is from these more modest areas of
the ward. But there is no reason, if | 3:18:11 | 3:18:16 | |
you look at the warrants in my own
city, they make no sense whatsoever. | 3:18:16 | 3:18:21 | |
They don't bring together
communities, they bring together | 3:18:21 | 3:18:24 | |
numbers. I don't think that they
make sense. But what this Bill aims | 3:18:24 | 3:18:31 | |
to do is allow local government to
organise itself. I will confess that | 3:18:31 | 3:18:39 | |
12-macro occasions in the past 20
years, I have actually voted for the | 3:18:39 | 3:18:43 | |
Green Party. I voted as a Labour
Party MEP for the Green Party | 3:18:43 | 3:18:51 | |
because I was faced with an election
in which the Labour Party put out | 3:18:51 | 3:18:55 | |
material attacking the education
policies which were of course the | 3:18:55 | 3:19:01 | |
responsibility of the Conservative
county council, not the local | 3:19:01 | 3:19:04 | |
council that the election was fired.
The liberal Party put out a leaflet | 3:19:04 | 3:19:11 | |
attacking the party for health
service cuts and the health service | 3:19:11 | 3:19:15 | |
was also nothing to do with kindred
City Council. The Conservatives | 3:19:15 | 3:19:18 | |
didn't put out any leaflets and when
I said, why haven't I had a leaflet | 3:19:18 | 3:19:24 | |
from you? They said, we have just
put up a paper candidate. The Green | 3:19:24 | 3:19:29 | |
candidates possess a leaflet that
was certainly the worst prepared but | 3:19:29 | 3:19:34 | |
that was a reflection on their
resources, not the intellectual | 3:19:34 | 3:19:38 | |
ability, which said what they would
do about cleaning the streets, | 3:19:38 | 3:19:42 | |
emptying the bins, looking after the
local services, shifting the bus | 3:19:42 | 3:19:47 | |
stop, it is actually talking about
the things that matter to us. | 3:19:47 | 3:19:52 | |
Unfortunately, the Green candidate
didn't win the actually does come in | 3:19:52 | 3:19:56 | |
second. But I also think that
turning the electoral system in this | 3:19:56 | 3:20:05 | |
way would help parties concentrate
on what matters to them. And what | 3:20:05 | 3:20:11 | |
matters locally, because it would
give a real incentive. And I have no | 3:20:11 | 3:20:15 | |
hesitation in saying that I would
not wish Cambridge City Council to | 3:20:15 | 3:20:20 | |
be run by the Green Party but I
certainly would like to see them | 3:20:20 | 3:20:25 | |
represented within the City Council
because I think that the ideas they | 3:20:25 | 3:20:29 | |
put forward in Cambridge reflect
their views, and is regularly shoot, | 3:20:29 | 3:20:36 | |
of around 15% of the population, and
they deserve a hearing in the | 3:20:36 | 3:20:40 | |
council that makes the decisions.
And that is up at heart of this | 3:20:40 | 3:20:46 | |
Bill. There are two safeguards
within it. Firstly, 10% of the | 3:20:46 | 3:20:53 | |
electors must request and
referendum, so it can't just be | 3:20:53 | 3:20:56 | |
sprung on people. There has to be a
demand and in order for there to be | 3:20:56 | 3:21:01 | |
a demand, they would have to be an
education campaign. If it was one or | 3:21:01 | 3:21:06 | |
2%, it would be easy, if it's 10%,
the parties would have to go out and | 3:21:06 | 3:21:11 | |
convince people that it was worth
having the referendum. Secondly, the | 3:21:11 | 3:21:18 | |
council would then have to ask for
the referendum, so they would be | 3:21:18 | 3:21:24 | |
eight double .2 job jump over. They
would clearly have to be some | 3:21:24 | 3:21:34 | |
consensus at local level and they
would have to be local demand | 3:21:34 | 3:21:39 | |
through the papers and through a
local campaign. This is not | 3:21:39 | 3:21:42 | |
something that's going to be sprung
on people nor, let me say, is it | 3:21:42 | 3:21:49 | |
something that says what form of PR
should be adopted. What it does is | 3:21:49 | 3:21:54 | |
it gives local government the
freedom to look at what sets the | 3:21:54 | 3:22:00 | |
local area and of course it could
decide that the local area is best | 3:22:00 | 3:22:05 | |
suited with no change at all. It
gives that freedom. My own personal | 3:22:05 | 3:22:11 | |
preference has always been for the
additional member system and we | 3:22:11 | 3:22:14 | |
often forget that the additional
member system was actually drawn up | 3:22:14 | 3:22:20 | |
by the British Labour Government in
the 1940s when they wrote what | 3:22:20 | 3:22:26 | |
became the Constitution of the
Federal Republic of Germany. A | 3:22:26 | 3:22:31 | |
gentleman whose name will be
familiar was one of the drafters of | 3:22:31 | 3:22:40 | |
that constitution. So we have formed
when we are dealing with other | 3:22:40 | 3:22:45 | |
people, what I'm suggesting in this
Bill is that we should maybe have a | 3:22:45 | 3:22:49 | |
bit of form and we are dealing with
ourselves. I'm sure we can have a | 3:22:49 | 3:22:55 | |
lot of debate around systems, that's
not the purpose of this very modest | 3:22:55 | 3:22:59 | |
Bill. The purpose is really to
advance us just as far as the Welsh | 3:22:59 | 3:23:05 | |
Government has already got, to start
a debate than to make it possible | 3:23:05 | 3:23:10 | |
for a change to be initiated at a
local level. So I thank noble lords | 3:23:10 | 3:23:17 | |
for listening to this and I look
forward to listening to the debate | 3:23:17 | 3:23:22 | |
and responding in due course. | 3:23:22 | 3:23:24 | |
I would like to congratulate and the
Lord to giving the House to debate | 3:23:33 | 3:23:37 | |
electoral reform, be it only one
aspect of it by introducing this | 3:23:37 | 3:23:42 | |
bill. Some noble lords will know
that I have previous on this. For | 3:23:42 | 3:23:46 | |
nearly a decade, I chair...
Campaigning for an electoral... We | 3:23:46 | 3:23:54 | |
were scuppered in the egg and by
Nick Clegg's decision to hold the | 3:23:54 | 3:24:00 | |
referendum on the date of 2011 which
made it absolutely certain, what he | 3:24:00 | 3:24:07 | |
purported to support would go down
to defeat. Incidentally, had the AV | 3:24:07 | 3:24:13 | |
system been in place in the 2017
election, he would almost certainly | 3:24:13 | 3:24:17 | |
have one at Sheffield Hallam, with
the aid of cycling Tory separate | 3:24:17 | 3:24:23 | |
references. Serve him right. The
referendum of 2011 temporarily took | 3:24:23 | 3:24:30 | |
electoral reform of the national
agenda all. I doubt it is gone | 3:24:30 | 3:24:34 | |
forever. We now have two dominant
great national parties, one divided | 3:24:34 | 3:24:44 | |
over Brexit, the other with a set of
policies far more left wing than in | 3:24:44 | 3:24:50 | |
any time of its recent history and
led by a man who is not seen as | 3:24:50 | 3:24:56 | |
prime ministerial material. First
past the post at the next election, | 3:24:56 | 3:25:02 | |
sadly, accepted we will be able to
vote devil or deep blue sea. Any | 3:25:02 | 3:25:08 | |
other choice is likely to be wasted.
The case for an electrical -- | 3:25:08 | 3:25:16 | |
electoral reform in local government
is stronger than in national | 3:25:16 | 3:25:21 | |
government. Party governments
partisanship is gradually going out. | 3:25:21 | 3:25:27 | |
In many places now we have elected
mayors, and other places we have the | 3:25:27 | 3:25:31 | |
executive models of local government
where the role of individual | 3:25:31 | 3:25:34 | |
councillors is more to represent
their constituents anti-government. | 3:25:34 | 3:25:37 | |
Yet we retain first past the post
which amongst its many flaws means | 3:25:37 | 3:25:43 | |
councillors are chosen by parties,
not people. Not surprisingly, | 3:25:43 | 3:25:52 | |
turnout is low, city councils have
become and mandates. -- have a week | 3:25:52 | 3:25:58 | |
mandates. Some administrations have
increasingly not been elected by | 3:25:58 | 3:26:05 | |
first past the post. Mayors
aren't... In London for example. The | 3:26:05 | 3:26:13 | |
Scottish National Assembly members
aren't. In Northern Ireland and | 3:26:13 | 3:26:19 | |
Scotland, STV is used for local
elections and the Welsh assembly | 3:26:19 | 3:26:22 | |
wanted to be used for local
elections also. I do not think there | 3:26:22 | 3:26:29 | |
are many voters who would want a
return of first past the post, for | 3:26:29 | 3:26:33 | |
example for the London mayor.
Regrettably our proposal has sneaked | 3:26:33 | 3:26:39 | |
into the Tory manifesto. Now,...
Would lead to an extension of | 3:26:39 | 3:26:50 | |
reform... I do have some concerns.
Firstly, it sets the bar high. 10% | 3:26:50 | 3:26:56 | |
of local voters have to sign a
petition to trigger a referendum. | 3:26:56 | 3:27:00 | |
Even that is not enough. The council
has to agree and there is the | 3:27:00 | 3:27:04 | |
problem that the council is have a
vested interest. They want to retain | 3:27:04 | 3:27:11 | |
them being councillors. We would
love to see the country swept by a | 3:27:11 | 3:27:14 | |
mass movement for fair votes. But I
do not think I should hold my | 3:27:14 | 3:27:19 | |
breath. Secondly, more
fundamentally, I am not a supporter | 3:27:19 | 3:27:26 | |
of referendums. I believe in
representative democracy. Actually, | 3:27:26 | 3:27:32 | |
with a slight link to aristocracy
link to this House, but not | 3:27:32 | 3:27:39 | |
directly. The last two referendums
we have held on electoral reform | 3:27:39 | 3:27:44 | |
with a low turnout and a very low
information seen by the public. On | 3:27:44 | 3:27:53 | |
Brexit, the consequences of which we
are still grappling with. Those two | 3:27:53 | 3:27:58 | |
referendums have not warmed me to
the device. I doubt if local | 3:27:58 | 3:28:03 | |
referendums on electoral reform
would make many hearts beat faster | 3:28:03 | 3:28:07 | |
and I very much doubt if the
majority of electors would choose to | 3:28:07 | 3:28:12 | |
grapple with the issues involved.
Turnout would be... Meanwhile, if | 3:28:12 | 3:28:20 | |
voters to vote for reform, what
reform? Supplementary vote, | 3:28:20 | 3:28:26 | |
alternative, STV, top up lists? With
the top uplift the closed-door | 3:28:26 | 3:28:31 | |
ribbon? I will not even go into the
many varieties of these other | 3:28:31 | 3:28:35 | |
systems. You cannot resolve a
complex set of preferences by a | 3:28:35 | 3:28:41 | |
single vote. However, there is a
form of direct democracy which I am | 3:28:41 | 3:28:48 | |
much warmer towards and which does
have promise as a way forward in | 3:28:48 | 3:28:52 | |
this way. That way forward is
citizen... I am sure all members are | 3:28:52 | 3:29:00 | |
familiar with what a citizen 's
Jerry is. You get together a group | 3:29:00 | 3:29:05 | |
that is representative of the
population and for a day or a | 3:29:05 | 3:29:08 | |
weekend, they sit together, debate
the issue in front of them. And they | 3:29:08 | 3:29:13 | |
are exposed in dialogue with the key
arguments by expats. They deliberate | 3:29:13 | 3:29:18 | |
and then decide. Often as result of
the education process, people change | 3:29:18 | 3:29:24 | |
their minds. As you remember, one
citizen 's Jerry Budd started off | 3:29:24 | 3:29:31 | |
saying how dreadful the House of
Lords was, because it was appointed | 3:29:31 | 3:29:34 | |
and then they ended up thinking we
were about right, so that warmed my | 3:29:34 | 3:29:38 | |
heart to the device. The
Constitution unit at UCL recently | 3:29:38 | 3:29:47 | |
staged a citizens jury on Europe and
the results are released this week. | 3:29:47 | 3:29:51 | |
Fascinating. Initially, the citizens
wanted free trade and less | 3:29:51 | 3:29:57 | |
immigration, perhaps... But then the
experts said no, you can't have your | 3:29:57 | 3:30:05 | |
cake and eat it. What then? A clear
majority prioritised free-trade over | 3:30:05 | 3:30:13 | |
immigration control. But came as a
surprise to me, but they did. I | 3:30:13 | 3:30:19 | |
would like to see this bill amended,
so that either councils can decide | 3:30:19 | 3:30:24 | |
to hold such a citizen 's Jerry --
citizens' jury. Perhaps 10%, perhaps | 3:30:24 | 3:30:32 | |
my left could trigger the calling of
a citizens' jury. If the citizens' | 3:30:32 | 3:30:37 | |
jury opted for reform, the law would
bring it into being. My own firm | 3:30:37 | 3:30:44 | |
belief is that in most cases an
informed and engaged group of | 3:30:44 | 3:30:50 | |
citizens would want electoral
reform. If not, that is their | 3:30:50 | 3:30:53 | |
prerogative. I would like to support
this bill and congratulate you on | 3:30:53 | 3:31:04 | |
bringing it. Perhaps it is a tiny
brick we might pull out of a | 3:31:04 | 3:31:08 | |
colossal wall of indifference and
very bad democracy. I am sympathetic | 3:31:08 | 3:31:15 | |
to the noble lord Lipsey was Mike
view that a referendum is often not | 3:31:15 | 3:31:19 | |
a way to settle a very complex
issue. I think we have understood | 3:31:19 | 3:31:22 | |
that with the whole Brexit
referendum. At the same time, I'm | 3:31:22 | 3:31:28 | |
not sympathetic to his view that
voters sometimes find things too | 3:31:28 | 3:31:32 | |
complex or can't be bothered and I
would have thought that the voting | 3:31:32 | 3:31:35 | |
in Alabama this week would have
shown us that when a court is just, | 3:31:35 | 3:31:39 | |
voters will come alive and actually
cast their vote and make a | 3:31:39 | 3:31:42 | |
difference. I am probably one of the
few people hearing your Lordships | 3:31:42 | 3:31:48 | |
house who has actually been elected
under PR, but also under first past | 3:31:48 | 3:31:51 | |
the post. I have to tell you, they
were equally difficult. It was | 3:31:51 | 3:31:55 | |
difficult to get elected as a London
assembly member and it was difficult | 3:31:55 | 3:31:58 | |
to get elected as a local
councillor. Honestly, a very | 3:31:58 | 3:32:03 | |
rewarding experience from both
counts. On proportional | 3:32:03 | 3:32:08 | |
representation, there is always a
lively debate. People feel very | 3:32:08 | 3:32:11 | |
strongly. Quite often one way or the
other. Most developments in Britain | 3:32:11 | 3:32:15 | |
but my constitution have come about
through compromise and negotiation. | 3:32:15 | 3:32:21 | |
Sometimes just an add-on. I do think
that Lord Bath's bill offers a | 3:32:21 | 3:32:33 | |
compromise on allowing proportional
representation in in a way that will | 3:32:33 | 3:32:38 | |
have the vote, will have the support
of voters. It doesn't force change | 3:32:38 | 3:32:42 | |
from above, and it actually allows
local people to decide how they let | 3:32:42 | 3:32:47 | |
their local representatives which I
think is excellent. And I would have | 3:32:47 | 3:32:51 | |
thought this bill fits quite well
with the government's declared | 3:32:51 | 3:32:56 | |
devolution agenda. There is no good
reason why local people should not | 3:32:56 | 3:32:59 | |
be able to choose their own local
election system. There is even less | 3:32:59 | 3:33:03 | |
reason why the government should
force fast past the post on a local | 3:33:03 | 3:33:08 | |
authority if there is public and
cross-party support to replace it. I | 3:33:08 | 3:33:12 | |
do think it would be pretty
hypocritical if the government were | 3:33:12 | 3:33:17 | |
to oppose a referendum on the future
of local democracy. Quite a lot is | 3:33:17 | 3:33:21 | |
made of the will of the people at
the moment. We are hearing it on | 3:33:21 | 3:33:24 | |
both sides of the chamber
constantly. Here and in the other | 3:33:24 | 3:33:27 | |
place. It seems eight not have made
of it when it suits people and then | 3:33:27 | 3:33:35 | |
it is completely negated when it
doesn't suit their arguments, which | 3:33:35 | 3:33:38 | |
is depressing. Even though I voted
for leave, because I want to amend | 3:33:38 | 3:33:43 | |
the bill, I am assumed to be a
traitor and an enemy of the people. | 3:33:43 | 3:33:48 | |
Which I do find very offensive. So
you cannot just care about the will | 3:33:48 | 3:33:52 | |
of the people when it once Brexit
and not care about it when it wants | 3:33:52 | 3:33:56 | |
a local election system to suit
itself. The will of the people is | 3:33:56 | 3:34:00 | |
either sacred or it is not. Of
course, as a Green Party member, I | 3:34:00 | 3:34:07 | |
care very deeply about proportional
representation. Because I am well | 3:34:07 | 3:34:12 | |
aware that our first past the post
in the past always predicated a | 3:34:12 | 3:34:19 | |
strong and stable government. But
that is clearly not the case any | 3:34:19 | 3:34:22 | |
more. It is clear that puppy post
has outlived its usefulness. And it | 3:34:22 | 3:34:30 | |
has become infuriating to watch this
particular government in league and | 3:34:30 | 3:34:38 | |
minority government in league with a
very niche party who actually got | 3:34:38 | 3:34:42 | |
half as many votes as the Green
Party in the last election but they | 3:34:42 | 3:34:46 | |
got ten times as many MPs, I really
would like an answer from the | 3:34:46 | 3:34:50 | |
Minister as to how that is fair or
democratic in any way at all. Half | 3:34:50 | 3:34:54 | |
the number of post and ten times the
number of MPs. The Green Party | 3:34:54 | 3:34:59 | |
policy is that we should have single
transferable vote -- vote for | 3:34:59 | 3:35:04 | |
elections and we can be done in a
way that maintains a constituency | 3:35:04 | 3:35:08 | |
link or a reward link, whichever is
more appropriate. Creating a much | 3:35:08 | 3:35:13 | |
more proportional voting system. But
there are a variety of views as to | 3:35:13 | 3:35:19 | |
which system to use and almost all
are better than the current system. | 3:35:19 | 3:35:22 | |
This bill would allow local
communities to decide for | 3:35:22 | 3:35:26 | |
themselves. It is possible for local
authorities to be too strong and | 3:35:26 | 3:35:32 | |
stable, where you have local
authorities that are totally unaided | 3:35:32 | 3:35:36 | |
by one party. It is easy for that
local authority to resist views that | 3:35:36 | 3:35:41 | |
are quite commonsensical, quite
reasonable in lots of ways. But | 3:35:41 | 3:35:46 | |
because it is in their they resist.
And I could name quite a lot of | 3:35:46 | 3:35:50 | |
councils. For example, Sheffield
City Council has a supermajority and | 3:35:50 | 3:35:57 | |
they have denied a bit by opposition
councillors. Simply because they | 3:35:57 | 3:36:00 | |
can. I do not think that is
democratic. And with directly | 3:36:00 | 3:36:08 | |
elected mayors, I think this has
been a very interesting experiment, | 3:36:08 | 3:36:11 | |
him in London, the mad does have
quite a lot of scrutiny, because it | 3:36:11 | 3:36:16 | |
has a London assembly that is
actually a very confident group of | 3:36:16 | 3:36:18 | |
elected all editions. And I think I
can be held an account. In other | 3:36:18 | 3:36:24 | |
places it is not as easy and I think
there is a lot of tweaking that can | 3:36:24 | 3:36:28 | |
go on with mayors of cities. The
balance of power between councillors | 3:36:28 | 3:36:33 | |
and there was considered to some
extent by the Court of Appeal in the | 3:36:33 | 3:36:37 | |
Doncaster library case in 2013, but
there are lots of questions left | 3:36:37 | 3:36:41 | |
unanswered. The general view is
councillors are weakened by where | 3:36:41 | 3:36:46 | |
there are directly elected mayors.
So the mayors have a lot of leeway | 3:36:46 | 3:36:50 | |
that perhaps they may not used to
best effect. We need to shake up our | 3:36:50 | 3:36:54 | |
political system to break up safe
seats, rotten boroughs and political | 3:36:54 | 3:37:01 | |
monopolies. It is not healthy for
democracy when we have those things. | 3:37:01 | 3:37:05 | |
Turning back to the bill, it is very
sensible. Moving forward on an | 3:37:05 | 3:37:10 | |
important issue. We are told people
are tired of politicians and experts | 3:37:10 | 3:37:14 | |
telling them what is best. We are
told the power is being wrestled | 3:37:14 | 3:37:19 | |
back from cosy elites, we are told
politicians must respect the will of | 3:37:19 | 3:37:23 | |
the people. If we can trust the
people on Brexit, then we can trust | 3:37:23 | 3:37:26 | |
them on virtually anything. So let's
try with this bill to start a | 3:37:26 | 3:37:34 | |
process of making our system more
democratic and today there were | 3:37:34 | 3:37:38 | |
three bills that I would have
liked... Three second readings I | 3:37:38 | 3:37:43 | |
would like to have them. But I don't
want to hold lots of time, so I am | 3:37:43 | 3:37:48 | |
only speaking one of them. If I had
some Green compatriots, you would | 3:37:48 | 3:37:53 | |
have had had to hear from you or the
time. I think that is a big enough | 3:37:53 | 3:37:58 | |
incentive to perhaps get some more
green appears here in the House of | 3:37:58 | 3:38:01 | |
Lords. Thank you. It's always a
pleasure to follow the baroness, | 3:38:01 | 3:38:10 | |
particularly appropriate today,
because indeed, she mentioned she | 3:38:10 | 3:38:15 | |
and I were first elected to the
London assembly in the year 2000. | 3:38:15 | 3:38:19 | |
And what I think whether fat
elections ever conducted under | 3:38:19 | 3:38:24 | |
proportional election system in
England. London assembly elections. | 3:38:24 | 3:38:27 | |
A very appropriate time. Before I
forget, I should declare my | 3:38:27 | 3:38:33 | |
interest, limited though it is, as a
vice president of the local | 3:38:33 | 3:38:39 | |
government Association. I do want to
thank the noble lord for introducing | 3:38:39 | 3:38:42 | |
this bill, it will come as no
surprise that the front bench we of | 3:38:42 | 3:38:51 | |
course welcome any debate on a
system of proportional | 3:38:51 | 3:38:53 | |
representation. I do also have to
agree with him that I quote, | 3:38:53 | 3:39:04 | |
"Parties are all too often addicted
to the system that enables them to | 3:39:04 | 3:39:07 | |
win. | 3:39:07 | 3:39:12 | |
That is undeniably true, but I want
to show from personal experience | 3:39:12 | 3:39:16 | |
that it is not always true. I was a
councillor in the London Borough of | 3:39:16 | 3:39:22 | |
Sutton for 40 years up until the
last elections in 2014. In Sutton | 3:39:22 | 3:39:29 | |
for the past 32 years, the London
Borough Council has been run by the | 3:39:29 | 3:39:33 | |
Liberal Democrats. Yet at only one
election, one council elections | 3:39:33 | 3:39:43 | |
since 1994 have the Liberal
Democrats won less than 80% of the | 3:39:43 | 3:39:51 | |
council seats, almost literally a
1-party state, and suburban south | 3:39:51 | 3:39:55 | |
London, particularly to my distress
with a majority of people voting | 3:39:55 | 3:40:01 | |
Leaving the EU referendum, it's not
natural love real Democrat | 3:40:01 | 3:40:07 | |
territory. I am still looking for
such territory, but wherever it is, | 3:40:07 | 3:40:12 | |
it is not in the London Borough of
Sutton. I think 32 years | 3:40:12 | 3:40:16 | |
continuously running the council,
most of the time with an absurdly | 3:40:16 | 3:40:22 | |
large majority, there's a huge falls
of confidence the way that the | 3:40:22 | 3:40:27 | |
Liberal Democrats have run that
council over that period. But at | 3:40:27 | 3:40:32 | |
only two elections in that time have
the Liberal Democrats gained more | 3:40:32 | 3:40:36 | |
than 50% of those, never mind 80% of
the votes in the borough. That | 3:40:36 | 3:40:43 | |
really is not fair to the minority
of residents that really would | 3:40:43 | 3:40:48 | |
prefer to be represented by
Conservative or Labour councillors | 3:40:48 | 3:40:51 | |
or even Green councillors. At the
last London borough elections in | 3:40:51 | 3:40:58 | |
2014, the Conservatives got 30% of
the vote in Sutton but only nine of | 3:40:58 | 3:41:01 | |
the 54 councillors, barely half what
their vote proportionately would | 3:41:01 | 3:41:07 | |
have entitled them to. Labour hold
15% yet they have not had a single | 3:41:07 | 3:41:14 | |
councillor in the London Borough of
Sutton since 2002. My lords, I'm not | 3:41:14 | 3:41:22 | |
too concerned's when the Labour
Government were experimenting with | 3:41:22 | 3:41:26 | |
various different pilot schemes for
increasing turnout and voter | 3:41:26 | 3:41:29 | |
interest in the elections and so on
and I was then leader of the | 3:41:29 | 3:41:34 | |
council, I did propose that Sutton
would be willing to count | 3:41:34 | 3:41:38 | |
Bournemouth conduct the next London
borough elections under an STV | 3:41:38 | 3:41:46 | |
system, provided that the London
Borough of Newham, 100% Labour, the | 3:41:46 | 3:41:52 | |
Royal Borough of Kensington and
Chelsea, then a Tory stronghold, if | 3:41:52 | 3:41:59 | |
they would do the same. My lords, I
was not too surprised, that neither | 3:41:59 | 3:42:08 | |
the then Labour Government nor the
two other councils were prepared to | 3:42:08 | 3:42:12 | |
do that. But I hope it gives a small
doubt to Lord Balfe's understandable | 3:42:12 | 3:42:20 | |
assertion of addiction to the system
that helps you win. My concern is | 3:42:20 | 3:42:26 | |
not so much that the first past the
post system is unfair to | 3:42:26 | 3:42:31 | |
Conservative and Labour parties in
Sutton, frankly they are more than | 3:42:31 | 3:42:36 | |
compensated all over the rest of the
country. It is that it is unfair to | 3:42:36 | 3:42:42 | |
citizens everywhere and that they
should always be our first concern | 3:42:42 | 3:42:46 | |
in judging any electoral system.
First past the post is not to use | 3:42:46 | 3:42:50 | |
the unfair to the citizen, samples
carry vastly more weight than others | 3:42:50 | 3:42:56 | |
and indeed far too many votes carry
no weight at all. So that is my | 3:42:56 | 3:43:03 | |
first principle in considering this
issue. The second principle is that | 3:43:03 | 3:43:09 | |
the system by which representatives
are chosen in our democracy really | 3:43:09 | 3:43:13 | |
cannot be left simply to the women
when Bournemouth home. That I think | 3:43:13 | 3:43:26 | |
is Lord Balfe's point and a weakness
in his Bill, that leaving aside the | 3:43:26 | 3:43:32 | |
shortcomings of referendums and the
difficulties of getting the required | 3:43:32 | 3:43:37 | |
majority of error, the final choice
is left to the local authority he | 3:43:37 | 3:43:42 | |
himself has said in most cases, but
not all, they have the greatest | 3:43:42 | 3:43:47 | |
vested interest in anyone in keeping
the system that has got them elected | 3:43:47 | 3:43:50 | |
in the first place. My lords, the
second Quigg hence, we would prefer | 3:43:50 | 3:44:00 | |
to see a reform that does not in any
way give deciding voice to those | 3:44:00 | 3:44:07 | |
already entrenched in local
authorities. We believe that a | 3:44:07 | 3:44:10 | |
reform of the significance is
urgent, effective and popular for | 3:44:10 | 3:44:17 | |
one group of citizens, it should not
be discretionary but universal. That | 3:44:17 | 3:44:21 | |
brings me to a third possible, the
basic building blocks of our | 3:44:21 | 3:44:27 | |
representative democracy in the
United Kingdom should be broadly the | 3:44:27 | 3:44:31 | |
same unless there are important
local circumstances which make that | 3:44:31 | 3:44:35 | |
undesirable in that particular
place. My lords, the huge success of | 3:44:35 | 3:44:42 | |
the introduction of the fate of
proportional representation for a | 3:44:42 | 3:44:45 | |
local authority elections in
Scotland is not just an irrefutable | 3:44:45 | 3:44:49 | |
argument for the extension of STV to
England and Wales but it's also a | 3:44:49 | 3:44:55 | |
strong case for uniformity. Scottish
electorates have a very much better | 3:44:55 | 3:45:00 | |
chance of seeing candidates they
vote for being collected, on average | 3:45:00 | 3:45:06 | |
75% of such candidates compared with
around 50% in the counties. And if | 3:45:06 | 3:45:12 | |
in Scotland the exercise further
preferences, then it rises to 90%. | 3:45:12 | 3:45:17 | |
That I believe over time, and it
will take possibly a generation, it | 3:45:17 | 3:45:24 | |
will mean that a very minimal delays
like many more people will vote for | 3:45:24 | 3:45:31 | |
positive reasons rather than
negative reasons against what they | 3:45:31 | 3:45:33 | |
don't want. Too often people go to
the polling stations if they go to | 3:45:33 | 3:45:42 | |
the group was told to stop something
happening rather than encourage | 3:45:42 | 3:45:46 | |
something happening but that is not
immune interest of healthy | 3:45:46 | 3:45:50 | |
democracy. Why should only some
citizens of the UK have a far more | 3:45:50 | 3:45:54 | |
democratic system of representation,
giving many more voters a direct | 3:45:54 | 3:46:00 | |
influence on the results of the
elections? Just as we believe that | 3:46:00 | 3:46:05 | |
the extension of the franchise in
Scotland to 16 and 17-year-olds has | 3:46:05 | 3:46:10 | |
been an unqualified success, so we
believe that the benefits of | 3:46:10 | 3:46:14 | |
electoral reform should be available
to all citizens of the UK. English | 3:46:14 | 3:46:20 | |
and Welsh voters deserve just as
much to enjoy the benefits of a more | 3:46:20 | 3:46:25 | |
representative democracy. The STV
form of PR in Scottish local | 3:46:25 | 3:46:31 | |
elections has been an excellent
pilot for the rest of the UK and has | 3:46:31 | 3:46:36 | |
been a huge success by any objective
judgment. Northern Ireland has | 3:46:36 | 3:46:42 | |
benefited from the advantages of STV
for over 40 years, Wales is | 3:46:42 | 3:46:49 | |
currently examining it, why should
England and English voters be left | 3:46:49 | 3:46:54 | |
behind? My lords, I hope this Bill
stimulus the Government into action | 3:46:54 | 3:46:58 | |
but I'm not too optimistic. My
lords, I congratulate the noble lord | 3:46:58 | 3:47:10 | |
Lord Balfe on securing a second
reading for his Bill today. I draw | 3:47:10 | 3:47:15 | |
the House's attention in particular
as a councillor in the London | 3:47:15 | 3:47:24 | |
Borough of Lewisham and as vice
president of the local government | 3:47:24 | 3:47:26 | |
Association. The noble lord also
made reference to the Co-op in his | 3:47:26 | 3:47:31 | |
opening remarks and I have been a
member as long as I have been a | 3:47:31 | 3:47:34 | |
member of the Labour Party, which
was 39 years last month. Along with | 3:47:34 | 3:47:40 | |
my noble friend sitting in this
friend House and deep Bill focuses | 3:47:40 | 3:47:53 | |
on referendums in local systems and
is permissive and its aim. It passed | 3:47:53 | 3:48:00 | |
into law, as you've heard, it would
cut require the Government to | 3:48:00 | 3:48:04 | |
introduce its own Bill to bring into
effect the implied attentions of | 3:48:04 | 3:48:09 | |
this Bill. I'm not particularly
happy with that sort of procedure, I | 3:48:09 | 3:48:14 | |
think that's fairly cumbersome and
uses a parliamentary time | 3:48:14 | 3:48:18 | |
unnecessarily and for reasons we are
well aware of, parliamentary time is | 3:48:18 | 3:48:22 | |
not in plentiful supply at the
moment. If the Bill did in fact | 3:48:22 | 3:48:26 | |
become law, you might as well have
done what does requested of the | 3:48:26 | 3:48:30 | |
Government in the first place.
Procedurally, I think it would be | 3:48:30 | 3:48:34 | |
better to have a sharper Bill than
the one before us today. We have | 3:48:34 | 3:48:39 | |
heard that since 1997 the Government
have introduced a variety of voting | 3:48:39 | 3:48:45 | |
systems into elections in the United
Kingdom. We have a closed system for | 3:48:45 | 3:48:52 | |
elections of members to the European
Parliament, supplementary vote | 3:48:52 | 3:48:58 | |
system for Mears, additional member
system is to introduce an element of | 3:48:58 | 3:49:04 | |
proportionality for the election of
the London assembly, Scottish | 3:49:04 | 3:49:10 | |
Parliament, and the coalition
Parliament in the second Scottish | 3:49:10 | 3:49:17 | |
Government introduce proportional
representation in Scotland and we | 3:49:17 | 3:49:21 | |
have proportional representation in
Northern Ireland. The noble lord | 3:49:21 | 3:49:26 | |
made reference to his contribution
today. So there are in fact many | 3:49:26 | 3:49:32 | |
systems and you could argue that in
itself is a problem. I would be in | 3:49:32 | 3:49:37 | |
favour of cutting down the number of
systems that are used to elect | 3:49:37 | 3:49:40 | |
people to various offices in the
United Kingdom. When I cast my vote | 3:49:40 | 3:49:45 | |
for the Mir of London and the London
assembly, I get three ballot papers | 3:49:45 | 3:49:51 | |
and thought using three different
systems, supplementary vote for the | 3:49:51 | 3:50:00 | |
mayor, first past the post for the
constituency member and a closed | 3:50:00 | 3:50:04 | |
list for the London wide members who
are elected on a proportional basis. | 3:50:04 | 3:50:11 | |
I am aware that the Conservative
Party in there, manifesto made a | 3:50:11 | 3:50:15 | |
commitment to replace the
supplementary vote system used for | 3:50:15 | 3:50:20 | |
mayor and police and crime
commission is with the first past | 3:50:20 | 3:50:23 | |
the post system. I own party's
manifesto was silent on the issue of | 3:50:23 | 3:50:29 | |
voting systems but there was a
little and to establish a | 3:50:29 | 3:50:33 | |
concentration of convention which
was overlooked at the question of if | 3:50:33 | 3:50:37 | |
devolution in England outside London
and were power is held and used at | 3:50:37 | 3:50:41 | |
the present time and if there were
changes to structures, consideration | 3:50:41 | 3:50:46 | |
would have been given to the system
of election news different tiers of | 3:50:46 | 3:50:51 | |
Government. I thought the proposal
in the Bill were a fairly cumbersome | 3:50:51 | 3:50:57 | |
procedure and you want to do what is
implied in the Bill, I would be more | 3:50:57 | 3:51:02 | |
direct and see if we could bring
about that change with the Bill | 3:51:02 | 3:51:05 | |
today. There are few issues and some
have been made reference to already. | 3:51:05 | 3:51:12 | |
In areas that are not... I'm not
sure another electoral system is | 3:51:12 | 3:51:19 | |
helpful, I think we need to reduce
the number of systems. I would also | 3:51:19 | 3:51:26 | |
have preferred that you are clear on
this system you want to introduce. | 3:51:26 | 3:51:30 | |
And ever expanding patchwork of
different systems at different | 3:51:30 | 3:51:36 | |
levels in the same area does not
give me the clarity which I think is | 3:51:36 | 3:51:39 | |
important. In another section, I do
not think the position should be | 3:51:39 | 3:51:46 | |
coming to the Government or
Parliament, it should be presented | 3:51:46 | 3:51:49 | |
and checked by the local authority
ready position 60 jeans the | 3:51:49 | 3:51:55 | |
electoral system. That has happened
for the election of mayor and also | 3:51:55 | 3:52:01 | |
the system to abolish them. There is
a double lock that requires the | 3:52:01 | 3:52:07 | |
Government body to vote for the
referendum to see the 10% threshold. | 3:52:07 | 3:52:13 | |
Maybe that is right or maybe not,
but what it certainly is is an | 3:52:13 | 3:52:18 | |
effective blocking mechanism which
could result in very few referendums | 3:52:18 | 3:52:22 | |
taking place. This is a Bill which
needs a day or a two in committee. | 3:52:22 | 3:52:32 | |
To see how it can be improved before
making progress. As I always say | 3:52:32 | 3:52:39 | |
when I speak on a Friday, this could
be done very effectively in the | 3:52:39 | 3:52:44 | |
Moses room but the Government
insists that it is a committee of | 3:52:44 | 3:52:51 | |
the whole House rather than the
grand committee, effectively making | 3:52:51 | 3:52:54 | |
it very difficult for all but a few
of the members bills they support | 3:52:54 | 3:53:00 | |
making any meaningful progress. That
is a real shame. The bills that do | 3:53:00 | 3:53:07 | |
make progress often initiate any
other place, sponsored by backbench | 3:53:07 | 3:53:14 | |
Conservative MPs and may well be
from the Government's off the shelf | 3:53:14 | 3:53:19 | |
collection that the Government are
happy to see brought into law but | 3:53:19 | 3:53:25 | |
cannot find Government time for.
Having said all that, there is not | 3:53:25 | 3:53:28 | |
to say that the noble lord's Bill
doesn't highlight that in some parts | 3:53:28 | 3:53:33 | |
of the country, things have become
very polarised and that has resulted | 3:53:33 | 3:53:37 | |
in a situation where effective
opposition is not possible in many | 3:53:37 | 3:53:41 | |
town halls. I love the firm belief
that any level of Government having | 3:53:41 | 3:53:48 | |
effective opposition is important
and where it is not possible because | 3:53:48 | 3:53:53 | |
of resulting elections, that can be
a problem. Some local authorities | 3:53:53 | 3:54:03 | |
have sought to try and make some
provision by allowing sole | 3:54:03 | 3:54:07 | |
opposition councillors to table
motions or always agreeing to | 3:54:07 | 3:54:14 | |
formally second motions to enable
the debates to take place. I would | 3:54:14 | 3:54:20 | |
contract to Michael congratulate the
council that actually do that. I | 3:54:20 | 3:54:25 | |
would like to see councillors and
the electoral broking, which is a | 3:54:25 | 3:54:29 | |
benefit of the first past the post
system. As I do think there may be a | 3:54:29 | 3:54:34 | |
think tank that should go and look
at how we can address the issue of | 3:54:34 | 3:54:39 | |
effective opposition and effective
challenge in | 3:54:39 | 3:54:41 | |
Combined opposition of all parts on
the council was less than 10% of the | 3:54:47 | 3:54:52 | |
members. At the moment, this system
could have been triggered to bring | 3:54:52 | 3:54:57 | |
up the opposition to 10% of the
membership. This area-wide members, | 3:54:57 | 3:55:02 | |
to provide some additional
challenge. That would enable motions | 3:55:02 | 3:55:06 | |
to be voted upon. Alternative
budgets to be proposed. The actions | 3:55:06 | 3:55:11 | |
of the majority party to be
condemned. And all the other things | 3:55:11 | 3:55:15 | |
that happen in a local council
meeting or should do. It is just the | 3:55:15 | 3:55:20 | |
thought, a lot of policy but it may
be useful with other ideas. I will | 3:55:20 | 3:55:26 | |
think carefully about the bill and
it is likely I will table amendments | 3:55:26 | 3:55:32 | |
to bring about while seeing
improvements to what has been | 3:55:32 | 3:55:37 | |
proposed today. In conclusion, I
think it has been a very useful | 3:55:37 | 3:55:41 | |
debate and it will be better with
the contribution... Can I begin by | 3:55:41 | 3:55:53 | |
congratulating Lord Balfe on his
success on the ballot and this | 3:55:53 | 3:55:57 | |
interesting debate about alternative
means of electing local councillors | 3:55:57 | 3:56:01 | |
who certainly sparked off a wide
variety of ideas. Which I will focus | 3:56:01 | 3:56:05 | |
on in a moment. We welcome the
debate is that he has initiated an | 3:56:05 | 3:56:12 | |
democratic representation and local
government on how he could best | 3:56:12 | 3:56:16 | |
choose our local leaders in local
authorities. It is a long time since | 3:56:16 | 3:56:20 | |
I have served on a local council. 46
years since I lost my seat on the | 3:56:20 | 3:56:26 | |
London Borough of Lambeth, which I
was elected in 1968 alongside | 3:56:26 | 3:56:30 | |
Councillor John Major. Much to her
surprise alongside... The paper | 3:56:30 | 3:56:38 | |
candidate in an unwinnable award in
Clapham, which my party won. I agree | 3:56:38 | 3:56:44 | |
with what has been said in this
debate about the importance of local | 3:56:44 | 3:56:47 | |
government. I took this opportunity
of paying tribute to councillors of | 3:56:47 | 3:56:51 | |
all parties who have managed to
reduce levels of ground in recent | 3:56:51 | 3:56:57 | |
years and maintained on the whole
good quality services. In some | 3:56:57 | 3:57:00 | |
cases, increasing public
satisfaction. The debate today has | 3:57:00 | 3:57:04 | |
been underpinned by a desire to
ensure popular engagement with this | 3:57:04 | 3:57:12 | |
important democratic process and to
protect the transparency and | 3:57:12 | 3:57:16 | |
integrity of our system at a local
level. Principles which all of those | 3:57:16 | 3:57:20 | |
who have spoken with support. This
is clear across all parties. | 3:57:20 | 3:57:28 | |
Successfully Labour and Conservative
and demonstrations have introduced | 3:57:28 | 3:57:31 | |
directly elected mayors to some
local authorities and for the | 3:57:31 | 3:57:34 | |
combined authorities, taking on the
most significant devolved powers. | 3:57:34 | 3:57:37 | |
Introduced manners and directly
elected commissioners. I take the | 3:57:37 | 3:57:45 | |
point made by number of speakers
that the current system can lead to | 3:57:45 | 3:57:48 | |
domination by one party with few
opposition members. But that | 3:57:48 | 3:57:53 | |
argument perhaps has less force than
when I was on the local authority. | 3:57:53 | 3:57:57 | |
Because we now have the introduction
of an overview of scrutiny | 3:57:57 | 3:58:00 | |
committees. Which can challenge the
executive is not possible with the | 3:58:00 | 3:58:04 | |
old committee structure I was
familiar with. On top of that, we're | 3:58:04 | 3:58:09 | |
audit committees, offices of the
council who have responsibilities | 3:58:09 | 3:58:12 | |
for lag legality... I also think the
nation of safe seats or wards has | 3:58:12 | 3:58:19 | |
less validity now than it used to
with the volatility of the | 3:58:19 | 3:58:22 | |
electorate. At Parliamentary level,
we have seen my party views... We | 3:58:22 | 3:58:27 | |
have seen Doctor Taylor when... I
think the nation of safe seats and | 3:58:27 | 3:58:35 | |
waters less valid. I think baroness
Jones mentioned Sheffield. | 3:58:35 | 3:58:42 | |
Sheffield, in my memory, was run by
three different parties. It is not | 3:58:42 | 3:58:45 | |
the case parts of the country that
are the monopoly of any one | 3:58:45 | 3:58:51 | |
particular party. But Lord Balfe
shared with us his background in the | 3:58:51 | 3:58:59 | |
co-operative movement, which shaped
his views on the electoral reform. | 3:58:59 | 3:59:05 | |
He mentioned Wales, one of the
consequences of devolution is the | 3:59:05 | 3:59:08 | |
different parts of the UK can go
their own way. It doesn't follow | 3:59:08 | 3:59:13 | |
that because Wales have gone in a
particular direction, England as to | 3:59:13 | 3:59:16 | |
follow. He also mentioned Lord
Bamber is. As I understand, there is | 3:59:16 | 3:59:23 | |
nothing in this bill that will
actually affect boundaries. That | 3:59:23 | 3:59:28 | |
particular issue he has worked hard
to be dealt with in a different way. | 3:59:28 | 3:59:32 | |
He mentioned his support for the
Greens. The Greens have shown they | 3:59:32 | 3:59:37 | |
can win wards under the existing
system, and local authorities. I | 3:59:37 | 3:59:43 | |
would not accept that existing
systems is a barrier to what were | 3:59:43 | 3:59:49 | |
initially small movements. My Mable
noble friend and also Lord... | 3:59:49 | 3:59:57 | |
Favoured the additional member
system. If we go down this | 3:59:57 | 4:00:00 | |
particular route. I think the
smaller the boundary, the more | 4:00:00 | 4:00:04 | |
difficult it is to have additional
member system. There is already the | 4:00:04 | 4:00:07 | |
allegation they are "Second-class
citizens" full stop that argument | 4:00:07 | 4:00:14 | |
has a less validity if you are
looking at a regional country. When | 4:00:14 | 4:00:17 | |
you go down to individual wards,
that have additional members were | 4:00:17 | 4:00:21 | |
sitting for such a small
geographical area. I think there | 4:00:21 | 4:00:25 | |
would be real difficulties in
persuading people of their | 4:00:25 | 4:00:27 | |
credulity. Lord Lipsey, speaking
from an unusual position, but on a | 4:00:27 | 4:00:33 | |
familiar theme, addressed some of
the deficiencies in the bill and | 4:00:33 | 4:00:39 | |
made it clear that he was
anti-referendums. He also made the | 4:00:39 | 4:00:44 | |
point that some of the difficult
decisions about the bill have been | 4:00:44 | 4:00:48 | |
subcontracted to the Secretary of
State. Who would have to introduce | 4:00:48 | 4:00:52 | |
the bill which would address some of
these problems. I was interested in | 4:00:52 | 4:00:54 | |
what is said about citizens' jury. I
think his... Would put a huge weight | 4:00:54 | 4:01:03 | |
on citizens juries on taking
important decisions. Baroness Jones | 4:01:03 | 4:01:10 | |
asked me to answer the question why
is it fair that the DUP should have | 4:01:10 | 4:01:14 | |
so many seats in the green so few?
The answer is the country had a | 4:01:14 | 4:01:18 | |
referendum. The country decided that
they wanted to stay with first past | 4:01:18 | 4:01:25 | |
the post and first past the post
produced the outcome that the noble | 4:01:25 | 4:01:27 | |
Baroness referred to. In her closing
remarks, she said we should trust | 4:01:27 | 4:01:32 | |
the people. If we trust the people,
we do have to honour the result of | 4:01:32 | 4:01:36 | |
that particular referendum. Launched
Hope argued generously for a system | 4:01:36 | 4:01:44 | |
that would give my party more
representation in the borough of | 4:01:44 | 4:01:48 | |
Sutton. Next May, we had to do that
on our own, without the benefit of | 4:01:48 | 4:01:53 | |
his proposed system. Like others, he
identified some deficiencies in the | 4:01:53 | 4:01:58 | |
bill. On the question of turnout, it
can be argued both ways. I think I'm | 4:01:58 | 4:02:05 | |
right in saying when we move from
first past the post for the European | 4:02:05 | 4:02:10 | |
Parliament to the regional list
system, turnout fell from what it | 4:02:10 | 4:02:15 | |
had been on first past the post. It
isn't always the case that changing | 4:02:15 | 4:02:19 | |
system up turnout. Lord Balfe was
somewhat dismissive of manifestos. | 4:02:19 | 4:02:28 | |
But I have to remind him that my
party's manifesto, ended his party's | 4:02:28 | 4:02:34 | |
manifesto, as well, commits us to
"Retain the first past the post | 4:02:34 | 4:02:40 | |
system of voting for Parliamentary
systems and extend these systems to | 4:02:40 | 4:02:47 | |
mayoral elections" in his words, you
said Lord Kennedy said he wanted to | 4:02:47 | 4:02:50 | |
reduce the number of system. That is
what my party election manifesto | 4:02:50 | 4:02:55 | |
does. It wants to move back to first
past the post, the system for the | 4:02:55 | 4:03:00 | |
elections that I have just referred
to. But reversing to the speech by | 4:03:00 | 4:03:09 | |
Lord Black, far from moving towards
the system advocated by his bill, | 4:03:09 | 4:03:15 | |
subject to local... There is
commitment in the manifesto to move | 4:03:15 | 4:03:21 | |
in the opposite direction, which
means it is difficult for us to | 4:03:21 | 4:03:24 | |
support this particular piece of
legislation. We want to ensure the | 4:03:24 | 4:03:28 | |
laws governing our local elections
can be understood and applied with | 4:03:28 | 4:03:32 | |
confidence. On the first past the
post, collectors prefer elect their | 4:03:32 | 4:03:37 | |
preferred candidates for their ward,
the system is well understood by the | 4:03:37 | 4:03:41 | |
electorate, did a straightforward
for administrators to deliver | 4:03:41 | 4:03:44 | |
election results accurately and
quickly. And opinion has been | 4:03:44 | 4:03:49 | |
tested. Arafat had this moment ago.
Appetite among the public to move | 4:03:49 | 4:03:53 | |
from the first past the post is not
evident. The referendum in 2011 on | 4:03:53 | 4:03:59 | |
changing the system of parliamentary
electric representation was 67.9% | 4:03:59 | 4:04:07 | |
against and 32.1% against four. On a
turnout of 42.2%. The bill before us | 4:04:07 | 4:04:16 | |
seems to apply PR rather than the
alternative vote and to councils | 4:04:16 | 4:04:20 | |
rather than Parliament. Nonetheless,
significant public support has | 4:04:20 | 4:04:24 | |
recently been expressed for first
past the post. The government's | 4:04:24 | 4:04:30 | |
position is that local government is
local, first past the post ensures a | 4:04:30 | 4:04:35 | |
clear link between the counsellor
and their ward. In a manner that | 4:04:35 | 4:04:39 | |
systems of PR may not. Local
government has a strong tradition of | 4:04:39 | 4:04:43 | |
having as its essential component of
the local council. Between these | 4:04:43 | 4:04:48 | |
councils represent a spectrum of
different local parties and a number | 4:04:48 | 4:04:51 | |
of councillors represent... In the
current system of representation | 4:04:51 | 4:04:56 | |
facilitate this. Electoral system is
a feat achieved PRI more often more | 4:04:56 | 4:05:04 | |
complex than first past the post.
System such as the single | 4:05:04 | 4:05:07 | |
transferable vote required balance
to be counted multiple times in | 4:05:07 | 4:05:11 | |
order to allocate seats. First past
the post entails a relatively simple | 4:05:11 | 4:05:14 | |
count, which usually only needs to
be conducted once. Minimising the | 4:05:14 | 4:05:19 | |
pressure on the administrative Pope
process and possibility of error. | 4:05:19 | 4:05:22 | |
Elections using first past the post
produce lower numbers of rejected | 4:05:22 | 4:05:26 | |
ballot papers compared to others.
Including PR systems. According to | 4:05:26 | 4:05:32 | |
the electro- commission, the
Scottish council elections, using | 4:05:32 | 4:05:39 | |
STV, 37,498 ballot papers being
rejected. As a proportion of total | 4:05:39 | 4:05:44 | |
ballots cast, nearly six times
higher than first past the post in | 4:05:44 | 4:05:48 | |
the general election. And high
numbers of incorrectly completed | 4:05:48 | 4:05:51 | |
ballot papers placed pressure on
administrators by requiring | 4:05:51 | 4:05:56 | |
administrators adjudication. We have
had a useful debate, I thank all | 4:05:56 | 4:06:00 | |
those who participated. I expressed
reservations about the provisions | 4:06:00 | 4:06:06 | |
within the bill before us today. As
indeed have other contributors to | 4:06:06 | 4:06:11 | |
our debate. We have clearly stated
our intention not to move away from | 4:06:11 | 4:06:15 | |
the tried and tested first past the
post system. We have no plays -- | 4:06:15 | 4:06:20 | |
plans to enable change the rating
system for elections to English | 4:06:20 | 4:06:24 | |
local authorities that the bill
before us could provide fault. Nor | 4:06:24 | 4:06:27 | |
indeed does the government proposed
to impose the legislation suggested. | 4:06:27 | 4:06:33 | |
I'm sorry to have to close my speech
remarks which I know my friend will | 4:06:33 | 4:06:38 | |
find disappointing. Can I thank the
noble lords who have intervened in | 4:06:38 | 4:06:44 | |
this debate. I have honestly missed
something regarding the noble lord | 4:06:44 | 4:06:51 | |
Lord Lipsey, he was in a different
position. I do not know if this is | 4:06:51 | 4:06:55 | |
indicative of something wider. But I
do know that track record years ago | 4:06:55 | 4:07:01 | |
arguing in the Labour... Says there
seems to be about some mystery about | 4:07:01 | 4:07:07 | |
this, I will clarify I have moved to
be a non-affiliated peer is acting | 4:07:07 | 4:07:12 | |
to the deputy chairmanship of the
charity. Act, which is nonpartisan. | 4:07:12 | 4:07:19 | |
OK, right. That simplifies one
thing. I was scared to say, many | 4:07:19 | 4:07:25 | |
years ago, I remember arguing within
the Labour campaign for electoral | 4:07:25 | 4:07:29 | |
reform that this was a very good
idea, because it would enable us to | 4:07:29 | 4:07:32 | |
get rid of some people. And I see to
remember Jeremy Corbyn and I was | 4:07:32 | 4:07:39 | |
told don't be silly, he is never
going to get anywhere in our party. | 4:07:39 | 4:07:45 | |
Of course, as a serious point, one
of the advantages of proportional | 4:07:45 | 4:07:50 | |
representation is that it does
sharpen up parties and you see this | 4:07:50 | 4:07:55 | |
in European Parliament, where I was
25 years. That both the left and the | 4:07:55 | 4:08:01 | |
right, the effectively gone up off
into their own parties. Where have | 4:08:01 | 4:08:04 | |
influence that Sodom power. This has
its downside have you seen recently | 4:08:04 | 4:08:11 | |
in the German elections, where to
next and the parties come too far | 4:08:11 | 4:08:16 | |
into the middle, but it also has its
upside in that it does get rid of | 4:08:16 | 4:08:22 | |
some people. As you might say, you
wouldn't want to take home to team | 4:08:22 | 4:08:26 | |
for mother -- with mother. Thank you
to the Lord Lipsey. I take all the | 4:08:26 | 4:08:34 | |
points, you cannot draft a bill like
this that is perfect. That is why I | 4:08:34 | 4:08:38 | |
dropped it something very short,
giving the Secretary of State the | 4:08:38 | 4:08:42 | |
job of doing things. Because at the
back of my mind, I was very mindful | 4:08:42 | 4:08:46 | |
of the fact that since 1999, which
is some way away, only ten bills | 4:08:46 | 4:08:53 | |
introduced into this House have
become law anyway. None for the last | 4:08:53 | 4:09:00 | |
two years and having been drawn as
number 15 in the ballot, I wasn't | 4:09:00 | 4:09:04 | |
exactly thinking that I was storming
towards legislative glory with this | 4:09:04 | 4:09:10 | |
particular bill. So it was drafted
very simply in order to initiate a | 4:09:10 | 4:09:14 | |
debate. | 4:09:14 | 4:09:19 | |
in I was very pleased to the
comments of my good friend. Overall, | 4:09:19 | 4:09:25 | |
my view is that some form of
devotional live visitation with the | 4:09:25 | 4:09:29 | |
owner fans and the present system.
The reason for giving some toys in | 4:09:29 | 4:09:33 | |
the Bill was because everybody falls
out about what the best system would | 4:09:33 | 4:09:37 | |
be. But I'm afraid I find it very
difficult to believe that a series | 4:09:37 | 4:09:44 | |
of 1-party states is the best way to
run local democracies, it's as | 4:09:44 | 4:09:49 | |
simple as that. I accept that the
Greens may have won in Brighton but | 4:09:49 | 4:09:54 | |
they have got nowhere in my city of
Cambridge, despite regularly getting | 4:09:54 | 4:10:00 | |
well into double figures in the
vault. They always gets between 50% | 4:10:00 | 4:10:04 | |
and 20% of the vote and the deserve
some seats. -- 15% and 20%. The | 4:10:04 | 4:10:16 | |
council is at the moment divided
between a resurgent Labour Party | 4:10:16 | 4:10:19 | |
that is not going to win in
Cambridge, losing Cambridge, until | 4:10:19 | 4:10:26 | |
Labour wins in Government, and then
of course it will all start to swing | 4:10:26 | 4:10:30 | |
back again. The other party in
Cambridge is the Liberal party that | 4:10:30 | 4:10:36 | |
used to control the city but has
gradually slipped downwards. But | 4:10:36 | 4:10:42 | |
this is not a local democracy, this
is just a reflection on what happens | 4:10:42 | 4:10:46 | |
nationally. But I think the Baroness
for Commons. I'm glad you had 32 | 4:10:46 | 4:10:57 | |
years in control of Saturn but I'm
not sure that's going to last that | 4:10:57 | 4:11:01 | |
much longer, either. But we will
see. On the noble lord Lord Kennedy, | 4:11:01 | 4:11:12 | |
he asked for a sharper Bill. I think
I have dealt with this, you can | 4:11:12 | 4:11:18 | |
never be right. A sharper Bill would
have missed a lots of things out. | 4:11:18 | 4:11:23 | |
The noble lord mentioned being clear
about the system, but we use | 4:11:23 | 4:11:29 | |
allsorts of systems. I've got in
building society elections on one | 4:11:29 | 4:11:33 | |
system, I vote for my club election
on a nervous system, I vote for the | 4:11:33 | 4:11:39 | |
Royal statistical Society executive
on another one, and regularly | 4:11:39 | 4:11:44 | |
ballots dropped through my door and
inviting me to vote by post for the | 4:11:44 | 4:11:48 | |
various bodies I'm in and they have
many different systems between them. | 4:11:48 | 4:11:53 | |
Funnily enough, I managed to
understand them. As to a loss of | 4:11:53 | 4:11:57 | |
other people that vote in them, so I
don't think a lack of understanding | 4:11:57 | 4:12:01 | |
of the problem. I listened with
interest about the minister has to | 4:12:01 | 4:12:08 | |
say and I appreciate that the
Government has a very different | 4:12:08 | 4:12:12 | |
position to me. Indeed, it has not
escaped my notice that there is not | 4:12:12 | 4:12:18 | |
a single Conservative speaker in
support of this Bill. I recognise it | 4:12:18 | 4:12:25 | |
as a minority sport, it was in the
Labour Party and is even more so in | 4:12:25 | 4:12:30 | |
the Conservative Party, but
nonetheless, it is an idea whose | 4:12:30 | 4:12:34 | |
hour is coming and as I see this
moving forward, I think that you | 4:12:34 | 4:12:41 | |
have to say, well, who has adopted
first past the Post recently? No | 4:12:41 | 4:12:47 | |
one. Who has moved to systems of
proportional representation? Quite a | 4:12:47 | 4:12:51 | |
lot of people, and when you look at
new systems, there is invariably a | 4:12:51 | 4:12:56 | |
demand for that. So I think thank
noble lords and ask the House to | 4:12:56 | 4:13:04 | |
give it a second leading and look
forward to it being the law of the | 4:13:04 | 4:13:08 | |
land, but probably not in my
lifetime. As many as are of the | 4:13:08 | 4:13:14 | |
opinion, say "aye". To the contrary,
"no". The content have it. My lords, | 4:13:14 | 4:13:22 | |
I moved that this Bill be moved to a
committee of the whole House. . The | 4:13:22 | 4:13:29 | |
content have it. My lords, I beg to
ask that the House now adjourn. The | 4:13:29 | 4:13:40 | |
House is now adjourn. | 4:13:40 | 4:13:46 | |
Today, President Trump fulfilled one
of his key election pledges. They | 4:14:33 | 4:14:43 | |
are calling at the Brexit election.
This is a much more dangerous world. | 4:14:43 | 4:14:53 | |
Making sense of the stories shaping
our world. | 4:14:53 | 4:15:04 | |
I beg you to ask the question set
down. My lords, the budget has | 4:15:29 | 4:15:37 | |
provided a very significant impact
for the north-east of England, | 4:15:37 | 4:15:43 | |
transforming cities on the Tees
Valley and an investment fund of 600 | 4:15:43 | 4:15:47 | |
million over 30 years as part of the
devilish deal for the north of time. | 4:15:47 | 4:15:54 | |
My lords, the funding for the
Tyneside Metro is welcome. The big | 4:15:54 | 4:15:58 | |
announcement in the budget was a
half baked and does the Minister | 4:15:58 | 4:16:04 | |
realise it has none of the
transport, health and social care | 4:16:04 | 4:16:09 | |
powers, and still less the social
funding and other counties like | 4:16:09 | 4:16:15 | |
Manchester, it has a boundary
cutting rates through the middle of | 4:16:15 | 4:16:18 | |
Tyneside and focuses on the election
that very few people want. What, if | 4:16:18 | 4:16:26 | |
anything, while the steel do for the
rural areas of Northumberland so | 4:16:26 | 4:16:32 | |
often outvoted on the Tyneside areas
on which the student focus? The | 4:16:32 | 4:16:39 | |
rolling stock and some 40 years out
of date. It is 40 years old and not | 4:16:39 | 4:16:43 | |
as real viable as it should be on
the new stock will make it better. | 4:16:43 | 4:16:51 | |
As far as the dealers concerned, for
those not familiar with the stories | 4:16:51 | 4:16:56 | |
of four, seven local authorities in
the north-east approach the | 4:16:56 | 4:16:59 | |
Government under the umbrella of the
north-east combined authority for a | 4:16:59 | 4:17:04 | |
devolution deal and this was in
accordance with the Government's | 4:17:04 | 4:17:08 | |
wish to decentralise decision-making
and give local areas more powers and | 4:17:08 | 4:17:11 | |
resources. Halfway through the
discussions, four of those local | 4:17:11 | 4:17:17 | |
authorities with crew and those who
understand the social political | 4:17:17 | 4:17:21 | |
dynamics of the north-east and the
tribal tensions of the time we | 4:17:21 | 4:17:25 | |
understand why, but I don't. The
decision for the Government was | 4:17:25 | 4:17:34 | |
whether the three remaining
authorities, Northumberland, | 4:17:34 | 4:17:38 | |
Newcastle, and North Tyneside should
go ahead. They want to proceed, so | 4:17:38 | 4:17:43 | |
do the business community and so
does the local enterprise | 4:17:43 | 4:17:45 | |
partnership. For those reasons, the
Government is minded to proceed | 4:17:45 | 4:17:50 | |
under the ball now rest in the Court
of the local authorities to go | 4:17:50 | 4:17:54 | |
through the statutory consultation.
Well my noble friend agree? | 4:17:54 | 4:18:02 | |
interest as a member of one of the
tribes in question. Educational | 4:18:05 | 4:18:10 | |
attainment is the key contributor to
economic attainment. Many children | 4:18:10 | 4:18:20 | |
are living in poverty, more than the
national average. While the | 4:18:20 | 4:18:25 | |
Government now seek to improve the
life chances of these children by | 4:18:25 | 4:18:30 | |
replicating in the north-east of the
very successful London challenge | 4:18:30 | 4:18:33 | |
were transformed education in the
capital? I have no objection at all | 4:18:33 | 4:18:38 | |
to rolling out from successful
experiments in London or anywhere | 4:18:38 | 4:18:42 | |
else to other parts of the country
that could benefit from them. So far | 4:18:42 | 4:18:47 | |
as the north-east is concerned,
there was quite a lot in the budget | 4:18:47 | 4:18:51 | |
to help the north-east on House,
healthy local health, transport. | 4:18:51 | 4:18:59 | |
Adult education would be devolved to
the new combined authority. On the | 4:18:59 | 4:19:05 | |
specific question, perhaps I could
take advice from the colleagues and | 4:19:05 | 4:19:08 | |
come back to him. Well my noble
colleague agreed that there is money | 4:19:08 | 4:19:14 | |
in the Budget and the industrial
strategy to improve connectivity | 4:19:14 | 4:19:20 | |
general areas? Will he ensure these
measured our use across the whole of | 4:19:20 | 4:19:25 | |
the north of England to ensure that
the access to the broadband is | 4:19:25 | 4:19:37 | |
improved to enable these rural
businesses to compete? I entirely | 4:19:37 | 4:19:41 | |
agree. She will know that the
industrial strategy, that was | 4:19:41 | 4:19:45 | |
launched at the same time as the
budget promised to make the UK a | 4:19:45 | 4:19:50 | |
more connected country with high
speed, fixed and mobile access | 4:19:50 | 4:19:55 | |
available in all areas, including
rural areas, and also aiming to make | 4:19:55 | 4:19:59 | |
decisions on infrastructure and more
geographically balanced, so that is | 4:19:59 | 4:20:03 | |
at the heart of the industrial
strategy. She will have an | 4:20:03 | 4:20:06 | |
opportunity to develop her arguments
after Christmas. The support | 4:20:06 | 4:20:13 | |
mentioned by the noble lord, the
Minister,'s... The noble lord may | 4:20:13 | 4:20:26 | |
not have a handle on the conflicts
in the north-east. I have a slightly | 4:20:26 | 4:20:32 | |
better handle on the tribal
conflicts in Yorkshire. There is a | 4:20:32 | 4:20:36 | |
real worry now that the whole of the
east of the Pennines is losing out | 4:20:36 | 4:20:42 | |
in relation to resources that would
otherwise be available if elected | 4:20:42 | 4:20:47 | |
mayors in the city regions east of
the Pennines had actually been | 4:20:47 | 4:20:52 | |
carried through. If they were to
occur in the months ahead, with the | 4:20:52 | 4:20:55 | |
noble lord give an assurance that
the resources which are earmarked | 4:20:55 | 4:20:59 | |
for those authorities with the
letter players will be available and | 4:20:59 | 4:21:05 | |
backdated for and authorities that
move forward with unelected mayor in | 4:21:05 | 4:21:11 | |
the way he has described? There is a
Sheffield regional city devolution | 4:21:11 | 4:21:17 | |
deal with unelected mirror. That is
in the process of being set up with | 4:21:17 | 4:21:25 | |
unelected Labour election scheduled
for May next year. If other parts of | 4:21:25 | 4:21:28 | |
Yorkshire want to approach the
Government and offer a similar | 4:21:28 | 4:21:31 | |
devolution deal, of course we would
listen. I think my colleagues in the | 4:21:31 | 4:21:38 | |
Treasury might pause before signing
up to backdated deals. What we don't | 4:21:38 | 4:21:42 | |
want to do is have an all Yorkshire
deal which would undermine the deal | 4:21:42 | 4:21:48 | |
going ahead with Sheffield city
region. Any work that the noble lord | 4:21:48 | 4:21:52 | |
can do to encourage more authorities
to come forward with devilish and | 4:21:52 | 4:21:56 | |
deals, the Government would listen
to them very warmly. The Minister is | 4:21:56 | 4:22:01 | |
quite right to welcome the support
that has been given to the | 4:22:01 | 4:22:07 | |
north-east and in particular the
support for Teesside, where the | 4:22:07 | 4:22:12 | |
steelworks are being closed and work
in a Conservative mayor has been | 4:22:12 | 4:22:17 | |
working closely with the Labour
authorities to ensure the success of | 4:22:17 | 4:22:21 | |
that approach to the Government. The
position on Tyneside is quite | 4:22:21 | 4:22:26 | |
disastrous. I was chairman of the
Port of Tyne authority for a number | 4:22:26 | 4:22:29 | |
of years and within international
passenger terminal on one side of | 4:22:29 | 4:22:34 | |
the river and dogs on the other side
of the river, working with different | 4:22:34 | 4:22:38 | |
authorities working across the river
will be most difficult. While he | 4:22:38 | 4:22:43 | |
seeks to do whatever he possibly can
to bring the river authorities on | 4:22:43 | 4:22:46 | |
the south side of the river to join
their colleagues on the north of the | 4:22:46 | 4:22:50 | |
river in order to set up a single
authority for the whole area? He may | 4:22:50 | 4:22:56 | |
have more influence than I- seeking
the reconciliation that he promotes | 4:22:56 | 4:23:01 | |
in view of his knowledge and
commitment to the area. On Tees | 4:23:01 | 4:23:05 | |
Valley, Chancellor announced £123
million of new funding to ensure the | 4:23:05 | 4:23:12 | |
ongoing safe and secure management
of the former steelworks and I | 4:23:12 | 4:23:16 | |
welcome the close working between
the mayor and the local authority. | 4:23:16 | 4:23:23 | |
On the north-east, on Tyneside,
whether it is too late for the | 4:23:23 | 4:23:27 | |
authorities to change their mind, I
don't know, but obviously we would | 4:23:27 | 4:23:31 | |
like to go ahead with the previously
proposed authority with all seven | 4:23:31 | 4:23:35 | |
local authorities involved. I beg
leave to ask the question with my | 4:23:35 | 4:23:44 | |
name on the order paper and
declarer. | 4:23:44 | 4:23:47 | |
Allegations of noncompliance act
seriously regardless of where it | 4:23:53 | 4:23:55 | |
takes place in the world. HRC are is
looking very closely at information | 4:23:55 | 4:24:00 | |
the icy AJ has publicly released in
the Paradise papers to see if it | 4:24:00 | 4:24:04 | |
reveals anything new. That could add
to the existing needs and | 4:24:04 | 4:24:07 | |
investigations. If that the
government may be looking closely, | 4:24:07 | 4:24:12 | |
but they have looked closely at it
for a long time with very limited | 4:24:12 | 4:24:15 | |
action. When will the government
accept there is a deep anger amongst | 4:24:15 | 4:24:20 | |
taxpayers in this country about the
revelations about the rich and | 4:24:20 | 4:24:26 | |
powerful are able to get away with
aggressive tax avoidance. And also | 4:24:26 | 4:24:31 | |
the transparency is the best
antidote. Will the government giving | 4:24:31 | 4:24:36 | |
six to date by which the overseas
territories and the dependencies | 4:24:36 | 4:24:41 | |
will have to open a public register
of the beneficial interests, | 4:24:41 | 4:24:45 | |
beneficial ownership within their
jurisdiction? You're right, we have | 4:24:45 | 4:24:51 | |
acting for a very long time. And
since 2010, we have introduced | 4:24:51 | 4:24:58 | |
almost 100 measures. That is more
than a combined health budget that | 4:24:58 | 4:25:02 | |
for England, North Ireland and
Scotland. We have one of the lowest | 4:25:02 | 4:25:06 | |
tax gaps in the world, one of the
lowest on record in this country. We | 4:25:06 | 4:25:09 | |
have been working very hard and it
was very seriously and we will | 4:25:09 | 4:25:13 | |
continue to do so. As we go on to
overseas territories and Crown | 4:25:13 | 4:25:17 | |
dependency, again and has been taken
very seriously, again two weeks | 4:25:17 | 4:25:21 | |
ago... The Prime Minister stressed
the importance of this, we already | 4:25:21 | 4:25:25 | |
have central registers in four of
those authorities, including | 4:25:25 | 4:25:31 | |
Bermuda... And in terms of
Montserrat... They will publish | 4:25:31 | 4:25:39 | |
registers, they will have registers
by April next year. And in relation | 4:25:39 | 4:25:42 | |
to tax and... They have been
particularly affected so they have | 4:25:42 | 4:25:47 | |
been given extra time. But we are
clear action needs to be taken. The | 4:25:47 | 4:25:52 | |
Council of the European Union
meeting in Brussels, week last | 4:25:52 | 4:25:58 | |
Monday, issued their blacklist of
tax havens and their conclusions | 4:25:58 | 4:26:00 | |
reveal that a number of British
dependencies and overseas | 4:26:00 | 4:26:03 | |
territories on the greatest have
entered into commitments of the EU | 4:26:03 | 4:26:08 | |
to implement tax governance
principles. Specifically Bermuda, | 4:26:08 | 4:26:16 | |
the Cayman Islands, Guernsey, the
Isle of Man and Jersey have | 4:26:16 | 4:26:21 | |
undertaken to address concerns about
the tax regimes which produce | 4:26:21 | 4:26:25 | |
profits without real economic
activity. Does the government | 4:26:25 | 4:26:29 | |
support the EU in this initiative
and will it impose the same | 4:26:29 | 4:26:35 | |
sanctions on long compliant
countries as the EU proposed after | 4:26:35 | 4:26:37 | |
Brexit? We certainly support the
work undertaken in producing this | 4:26:37 | 4:26:44 | |
report. And the whole process, we
have been at the forefront of this. | 4:26:44 | 4:26:48 | |
We recognise the statements made
about long commitment of those | 4:26:48 | 4:26:57 | |
jurisdictions which are cooperative.
That is a very important point to | 4:26:57 | 4:27:00 | |
stress. None of the Crown
dependencies or territories were | 4:27:00 | 4:27:05 | |
under the list of noncooperative.
They were all on cooperative lists | 4:27:05 | 4:27:09 | |
and it has been identified as the
areas they want to take action and | 4:27:09 | 4:27:14 | |
they we are fully supportive of it.
My lords, the disinformation | 4:27:14 | 4:27:19 | |
surrounding this issue is
staggering. As is the confirmation | 4:27:19 | 4:27:22 | |
of illegal tax evasion, lawful tax
avoidance and money laundering. | 4:27:22 | 4:27:26 | |
Would my friend the Minister agree
that the new gold standard of | 4:27:26 | 4:27:33 | |
proactive reporting and transparency
in favour of tax authorities in | 4:27:33 | 4:27:36 | |
respect of the capital income of any
legal person, trust individual using | 4:27:36 | 4:27:41 | |
the financial services industry is
in fact it Cayman Islands? Well, the | 4:27:41 | 4:27:47 | |
Cayman Islands are one. They have
work to do as all jurisdictions. In | 4:27:47 | 4:27:51 | |
this area. To meet the standards set
down. It is true to say in terms of | 4:27:51 | 4:27:59 | |
the Cayman Islands that with their
centrally held register, they are | 4:27:59 | 4:28:02 | |
going above and beyond what is
required by the financial action tax | 4:28:02 | 4:28:06 | |
falls. We are certain we want to
make sure all UK citizens pay all | 4:28:06 | 4:28:12 | |
tax due by them. Whether held in the
world -- wherever it is held in the | 4:28:12 | 4:28:22 | |
world. We intend to ensure all
jurisdictions holder that. Given the | 4:28:22 | 4:28:26 | |
level of public shock at what was
revealed in the Paradise papers, the | 4:28:26 | 4:28:33 | |
ministers answers today follow the
pattern the same emergent pattern of | 4:28:33 | 4:28:41 | |
recent years. Well, we are doing
what we can, we are getting certain | 4:28:41 | 4:28:46 | |
proceeds, and yet, what the Paradise
papers reflected, it's a massive | 4:28:46 | 4:28:55 | |
scale, whole range of individuals
and companies who owe tax. ... | 4:28:55 | 4:29:01 | |
Putting themselves under the
jurisdiction of these islands and | 4:29:01 | 4:29:08 | |
escaping taxation which is owed to
this country. I do ask the Minister | 4:29:08 | 4:29:13 | |
to respond to the questions my noble
friend asked. With a degree of | 4:29:13 | 4:29:19 | |
forthrightness. I think the question
was about publicly registered. The | 4:29:19 | 4:29:27 | |
UK is the first major economy to
issue a public register, a foreign | 4:29:27 | 4:29:34 | |
owned companies. The UK is leading
in this, a commitment given at the | 4:29:34 | 4:29:39 | |
global anti-corruption Summit which
David Cameron actually initiated, | 4:29:39 | 4:29:41 | |
which took a land mark innings. It
is not required that others have to | 4:29:41 | 4:29:48 | |
make sure it is a public register.
Another jurisdictions, it has to be | 4:29:48 | 4:29:54 | |
available to tax authorities and
also to security authorities in the | 4:29:54 | 4:29:59 | |
case of counterterrorist finances.
That is what is happening. In those | 4:29:59 | 4:30:02 | |
jurisdictions at the present time.
There is still more to be done and | 4:30:02 | 4:30:05 | |
we are far from complacent about it.
Does the Minister think this | 4:30:05 | 4:30:12 | |
proposal will go away, we have
problem with defence and security of | 4:30:12 | 4:30:16 | |
overseas territories and we are so
few ships now we can't do it and if | 4:30:16 | 4:30:19 | |
we are unable to actually defend
them, maybe they should no longer be | 4:30:19 | 4:30:22 | |
British Overseas Territories? The
overseas territories and the Crown | 4:30:22 | 4:30:28 | |
dependencies are very important part
of the British family and will be a | 4:30:28 | 4:30:31 | |
part of global Britain going
forward. It is very important that | 4:30:31 | 4:30:33 | |
it is part of that family that
everybody works together to ensure | 4:30:33 | 4:30:39 | |
those people who have assets held
overseas actually make sure they are | 4:30:39 | 4:30:43 | |
reported in an accurate and timely
way to the tax authorities of their | 4:30:43 | 4:30:46 | |
countries. I'd like to draw houses
attention to my declared interests. | 4:30:46 | 4:30:58 | |
My lords, the transfer of
responsibilities is designed to get | 4:30:58 | 4:31:06 | |
higher education providers...
Equality act. There are many | 4:31:06 | 4:31:10 | |
specifications in that act, on
exclusivity and good practice. The | 4:31:10 | 4:31:14 | |
experience of disabled students in
higher education is of equal | 4:31:14 | 4:31:17 | |
importance is about non-disabled
students and we will continue to | 4:31:17 | 4:31:21 | |
review the need of best actors
guidance as necessary. My lords, | 4:31:21 | 4:31:25 | |
thank you the noble Minister for
that reply. May I ask, if the | 4:31:25 | 4:31:32 | |
surgeon nation has ripped through
improved since we did the higher | 4:31:32 | 4:31:36 | |
education Bill? -- the situation.
When I was looking at higher | 4:31:36 | 4:31:41 | |
education as a route to excellence
paper, there was no guidance in it. | 4:31:41 | 4:31:46 | |
When asked where it was, I was told
an official we would entrust the | 4:31:46 | 4:31:51 | |
courts to sort it out. In a
subsequent meeting, I was told by | 4:31:51 | 4:31:58 | |
the disabled student sector
leadership group under Professor | 4:31:58 | 4:32:02 | |
layout which was the author of it,
don't worry, almost half the | 4:32:02 | 4:32:07 | |
institutions have a policy in place.
How can his students navigate the | 4:32:07 | 4:32:15 | |
system? And what do they do if
something goes wrong without having | 4:32:15 | 4:32:19 | |
to take the full weight of a legal
challenge on the rain-soaked | 4:32:19 | 4:32:22 | |
shoulders? -- on their shoulders.
Can I just say, there are a number | 4:32:22 | 4:32:34 | |
of good guidance is available from
the disabled sector leadership | 4:32:34 | 4:32:41 | |
group, the office for the
Independent adjudicator and achieve | 4:32:41 | 4:32:45 | |
AA has also issued guidance for
inclusivity across teaching, | 4:32:45 | 4:32:48 | |
learning and assessment. And hefty
have also undertaken their own | 4:32:48 | 4:32:56 | |
review and there was a 76% response
and there is more to do, but higher | 4:32:56 | 4:33:01 | |
education providers have got the
message and they are looking at what | 4:33:01 | 4:33:07 | |
more they need to do in order to
provide the right facilities for the | 4:33:07 | 4:33:10 | |
disabled students. Schoolchildren
with disability and autism are | 4:33:10 | 4:33:20 | |
excluded by many of their peers
throughout their school life and | 4:33:20 | 4:33:23 | |
teachers are not often equipped to
be able to help and resolve | 4:33:23 | 4:33:25 | |
problems. Can I ask, what is the
government doing to ensure this | 4:33:25 | 4:33:30 | |
experience does not continue when
these young people into higher | 4:33:30 | 4:33:32 | |
education? As mentioned before,
there are specific duties laid out | 4:33:32 | 4:33:38 | |
under the equalities act 2010 and I
think the noble lord was referring | 4:33:38 | 4:33:41 | |
to schools, let's talk about schools
and higher education institutions. | 4:33:41 | 4:33:46 | |
There are clear remit down for them
to adhere to ensuring that all of | 4:33:46 | 4:33:51 | |
them are looked after properly.
Challenges to students with | 4:33:51 | 4:33:58 | |
disabilities such as dyslexia, low
vision and blinders is the | 4:33:58 | 4:34:03 | |
accessibility of academic text books
and journals. With the advent of | 4:34:03 | 4:34:08 | |
digital technology, this problem is
now solvable. Indeed, in the United | 4:34:08 | 4:34:14 | |
States, universities now require
publishers to provide textbooks that | 4:34:14 | 4:34:18 | |
meet accessibility standards. The
problem with the transfer of | 4:34:18 | 4:34:22 | |
responsibility for student support
is that UK universities do not know | 4:34:22 | 4:34:28 | |
what is possible or how to make it
available. With the minister be | 4:34:28 | 4:34:32 | |
willing to convene a Round Table
involving the University | 4:34:32 | 4:34:38 | |
authorities, publishers and
representatives of disabled people | 4:34:38 | 4:34:41 | |
with knowledge of good practice in
this area in order to put a system | 4:34:41 | 4:34:45 | |
in place that would provide a final
solution to the problem of making | 4:34:45 | 4:34:49 | |
academic material accessible. The
best answer I think I can give is | 4:34:49 | 4:34:55 | |
that I will pass his question and
his request on to Joe Johnson. And I | 4:34:55 | 4:35:02 | |
am sure he will look at that
carefully. Also, one of the | 4:35:02 | 4:35:07 | |
important parts of policy is to
ensure institutions are able to | 4:35:07 | 4:35:14 | |
decipher -- decide for themselves
how to best look after the needs of | 4:35:14 | 4:35:19 | |
dyslexic students. At the House will
know, very greatly in size and the | 4:35:19 | 4:35:23 | |
type of course they offer and within
the institutions, there is great | 4:35:23 | 4:35:26 | |
variation on the way the course is
delivered. Disabled students | 4:35:26 | 4:35:30 | |
themselves very greatly in the type
and level of support they need. We | 4:35:30 | 4:35:33 | |
do think the autonomy... So usually
debated should be left to that | 4:35:33 | 4:35:41 | |
extent. My lords, it makes little
sense is somebody who has been | 4:35:41 | 4:35:49 | |
clinically diagnosed with dyslexia
through school then has to be | 4:35:49 | 4:35:54 | |
reassessed at university for
dyslexia. Therefore, I'm very | 4:35:54 | 4:35:58 | |
grateful to the noble lord Lord Accu
who wrote to me to say this will be | 4:35:58 | 4:36:04 | |
reviewed. Can my noble lord -- noble
friend and say in terms of the | 4:36:04 | 4:36:12 | |
review and when this review will be
completed? Indeed. I am aware of the | 4:36:12 | 4:36:22 | |
note made. But the review will start
to take evidence from those invited | 4:36:22 | 4:36:28 | |
early in the New Year and we hope
the review will report that in a few | 4:36:28 | 4:36:32 | |
months. Little bit more detail, it
will consider the evidential | 4:36:32 | 4:36:37 | |
requirements for students applying
for disabled student allowances with | 4:36:37 | 4:36:40 | |
specific learning difficulties and
particularly for those with | 4:36:40 | 4:36:44 | |
dyslexia. He is relying on the
autonomy of universities and various | 4:36:44 | 4:36:52 | |
bits of guidance, but has Lord Adler
has said, by July, barely half of | 4:36:52 | 4:37:00 | |
universities actually had a policy
in place. The experience of students | 4:37:00 | 4:37:06 | |
will be very variable where they
have a disability and where they | 4:37:06 | 4:37:10 | |
need special requirements. I would
ask the Minister because the | 4:37:10 | 4:37:16 | |
universities are producing such a
patchy performance, we need to have | 4:37:16 | 4:37:21 | |
some reassurance there will be some
kind of regulatory intervention if | 4:37:21 | 4:37:24 | |
they do not get their act together.
We do not think it is right we go | 4:37:24 | 4:37:30 | |
for regular tree action or even
legislation. It is not just because | 4:37:30 | 4:37:34 | |
of so much guidance, it is also let
me refer the House to the review | 4:37:34 | 4:37:40 | |
where we have the 70% response.
Nearly all respondents have recently | 4:37:40 | 4:37:46 | |
carried out view of support or plans
to do so in the future. Some | 4:37:46 | 4:37:51 | |
providers have made significant
progress, particularly focusing on | 4:37:51 | 4:37:53 | |
lecture capturing -- captioning.
Research also highlights the need | 4:37:53 | 4:37:59 | |
for sustained development to support
students who are disabled. And an | 4:37:59 | 4:38:07 | |
effort to make the necessary
changes. There is more work to done. | 4:38:07 | 4:38:11 | |
I beg leave to ask the question on
the order paper. The government is | 4:38:11 | 4:38:21 | |
supporting the Royal Borough of
Cannington and Chelsea to rehouse | 4:38:21 | 4:38:24 | |
survivors of the Grenfell Tower fire
as quickly as possible. Rehousing | 4:38:24 | 4:38:30 | |
this procedure to pace which
respects the needs, wants and | 4:38:30 | 4:38:36 | |
situation of survivors. Bureaucratic
inertia must not add to the delay. | 4:38:36 | 4:38:39 | |
In line with the recent task force
report, expect the council to do | 4:38:39 | 4:38:43 | |
whatever is necessary to ensure
households can move into homes as | 4:38:43 | 4:38:47 | |
swiftly as possible. Today is six
months as the tragedy of Grenfell | 4:38:47 | 4:38:55 | |
Tower. Remember, the victims and
survivors of that terrible night. I | 4:38:55 | 4:38:58 | |
paid about -- tribute to the
emergency service workers, public | 4:38:58 | 4:39:04 | |
sector staff, the voluntary sector
and the communities. Who are working | 4:39:04 | 4:39:11 | |
to get the community back on its
feet. Six months is a very long time | 4:39:11 | 4:39:15 | |
to be living in hotel accommodation
and no way to spend Christmas. | 4:39:15 | 4:39:20 | |
Vulnerable, unsettled and
traumatised. Can the Lord tell the | 4:39:20 | 4:39:26 | |
-- below noble lord tell what
specific action the government is | 4:39:26 | 4:39:29 | |
sticking to get these families into
accommodation in the New Year. We | 4:39:29 | 4:39:34 | |
want to be talking about going
forward and housing families in | 4:39:34 | 4:39:39 | |
permanent accommodation. Because
what despite what the local | 4:39:39 | 4:39:42 | |
authority says, the situation of the
majority of family needs | 4:39:42 | 4:39:53 | |
Does what the Lord said about the
father service in the community | 4:39:54 | 4:40:00 | |
response, a response which was paid
tribute to only Today programme by | 4:40:00 | 4:40:06 | |
the Archbishop, who spoke very
movingly about this? To bring the | 4:40:06 | 4:40:11 | |
House up to date, 151 homes were
lost in the fire. Some of those were | 4:40:11 | 4:40:18 | |
overcrowded, other had
multi-generational hassles. 210 | 4:40:18 | 4:40:26 | |
households who formerly lived in
Grenfell Tower need to be rehoused. | 4:40:26 | 4:40:31 | |
Many have accepted an offer of
temporary or permanent | 4:40:31 | 4:40:36 | |
accommodation, 99 have moved on. 111
or an emergency accommodation with | 4:40:36 | 4:40:44 | |
66 yet to accept an offer of
accommodation. The noble lord asks | 4:40:44 | 4:40:49 | |
what action is being taken. The
Royal Borough of Kensington and | 4:40:49 | 4:40:54 | |
Chelsea plan by Christmas to have
acquired a 300 homes set against the | 4:40:54 | 4:40:58 | |
210 that we need. They are acquiring
two holds a day. I quite agree that | 4:40:58 | 4:41:05 | |
Christmas is now time to spend an
emergency accommodation, the | 4:41:05 | 4:41:08 | |
Government is acutely aware of that,
and in the four hotels where most of | 4:41:08 | 4:41:14 | |
the families are, specific
arrangements were made for the | 4:41:14 | 4:41:17 | |
family still have space of their own
to meet each other and entertain | 4:41:17 | 4:41:19 | |
their wider families if they want
to. A lot of services are plain on | 4:41:19 | 4:41:25 | |
by voluntary groups over the
Christmas period to support those | 4:41:25 | 4:41:28 | |
families. We hope that by June next
year, everyone will have moved into | 4:41:28 | 4:41:33 | |
permanent accommodation. But
families need to move on their own | 4:41:33 | 4:41:37 | |
time. Some are in an emergency
accommodation not wanting to move | 4:41:37 | 4:41:41 | |
into temporary accommodation because
they may have to move twice in the | 4:41:41 | 4:41:45 | |
Royal Borough of Kensington and
Chelsea is doing in terms of work | 4:41:45 | 4:41:49 | |
alongside the families, finding out
what accommodation they need and | 4:41:49 | 4:41:52 | |
seeking to match it with the 300
houses they are acquiring. I very | 4:41:52 | 4:41:56 | |
much hope by June everyone will have
been offered and accepted permanent | 4:41:56 | 4:42:02 | |
accommodation. May I join in paying
respects to those who died in the | 4:42:02 | 4:42:11 | |
Grenfell Tower Fire six months ago?
This question is about what the | 4:42:11 | 4:42:15 | |
Government is doing and I wonder
whether the Minister does accept | 4:42:15 | 4:42:20 | |
that local people have now lost
confidence in their local council. | 4:42:20 | 4:42:25 | |
Could I remind the Minister that in
the Government statement on the fire | 4:42:25 | 4:42:31 | |
on the 19th of October, they were
expected to be 300 super Moordown so | 4:42:31 | 4:42:41 | |
professional... Could I ask the
Minister whether he has confidence | 4:42:41 | 4:42:48 | |
in the local council to deliver or
whether it may be time for the | 4:42:48 | 4:42:53 | |
Government to intervene more
directly? The Government has no | 4:42:53 | 4:42:56 | |
plans to put commissioned into the
Royal Borough of Kensington and | 4:42:56 | 4:43:01 | |
Chelsea. They have a new leader and
you Chief Executive and the | 4:43:01 | 4:43:07 | |
Government has established a task
force to make sure they live up to | 4:43:07 | 4:43:10 | |
the expectations everyone has of
what they plan to do. Some of those | 4:43:10 | 4:43:16 | |
in temporary accommodation once that
temporary accommodation to become | 4:43:16 | 4:43:19 | |
their permanent home and the Royal
Borough is approaching the relevant | 4:43:19 | 4:43:23 | |
Londoners to see if that can take
place. Some of those in emergency | 4:43:23 | 4:43:29 | |
accommodation have already accepted
permanent accommodation, but it | 4:43:29 | 4:43:33 | |
takes time to complete, fit out the
House, putting the white goods for | 4:43:33 | 4:43:38 | |
the families to move on. I am aware
there is an impatient to make | 4:43:38 | 4:43:44 | |
progress but I'm confident the Royal
Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, | 4:43:44 | 4:43:47 | |
who are planning to spend nearly a
quarter of £1 billion acquiring | 4:43:47 | 4:43:52 | |
property, have now got the message
and the lack of emotional | 4:43:52 | 4:43:56 | |
intelligence and empathy is behind
us and they are getting on with the | 4:43:56 | 4:43:59 | |
job. Could the noble lord say...?
Can my noble friend tell me, or any | 4:43:59 | 4:44:10 | |
of those who are claiming no social
housing, where any of those tenants | 4:44:10 | 4:44:18 | |
of Grenfell Tower who had moved out
and unlawfully let their | 4:44:18 | 4:44:25 | |
accommodation to more than one
family? Because I don't think we | 4:44:25 | 4:44:29 | |
need have too much sympathy for
people that behaves like that. I'm | 4:44:29 | 4:44:37 | |
not sure I fully understood the
question. The assistance that the | 4:44:37 | 4:44:43 | |
Government and the Royal Bath
Borough of Kensington and Chelsea | 4:44:43 | 4:44:46 | |
are seeking to extend its to those
who are living in Grenfell Tower at | 4:44:46 | 4:44:52 | |
the time who are now homeless or who
were homeless shortly after the | 4:44:52 | 4:44:58 | |
fire. Anybody who was living there
at the time is now being assisted by | 4:44:58 | 4:45:03 | |
the Royal Borough. I say to my noble
friend, he has lived through tragic | 4:45:03 | 4:45:10 | |
circumstances where people have lost
their life and he will know better | 4:45:10 | 4:45:13 | |
than anyone else the trauma that
those people have been through. I | 4:45:13 | 4:45:17 | |
think we ought to allow them the
time and space to find suitable | 4:45:17 | 4:45:21 | |
accommodation to move into. My
lords, could the noble lord say why | 4:45:21 | 4:45:29 | |
in the aftermath of the Grenfell
tragedy the Government continues | 4:45:29 | 4:45:34 | |
apace with its deregulation agenda?
So far as Grenfell Tower is | 4:45:34 | 4:45:44 | |
concerned, the review is shortly to
produce its interim report on fire | 4:45:44 | 4:45:49 | |
regulations. She will know that
after the tragedy at Grenfell Tower, | 4:45:49 | 4:45:53 | |
and fights was given one two
locations to owners of property that | 4:45:53 | 4:45:57 | |
may not conform with the appropriate
cladding of how to make safety | 4:45:57 | 4:46:05 | |
measures appropriate for those
blogs. The whole thrust of the | 4:46:05 | 4:46:09 | |
enquiry, the whole thrust is to make
sure that nothing like this ever | 4:46:09 | 4:46:15 | |
happens | 4:46:15 | 4:46:15 |