15/12/2017 House of Lords


15/12/2017

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I, Anthony Peter, do you swear by

Almighty God that I will be faithful

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and bear true allegiance to her

Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs

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and successors, according to the

law, so help me God.

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My Lords, I should like to make it

brief personal statement. Yesterday,

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in response to a question asked by

Lord Anderson of Swansea, I drew the

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minister's attention to the high

standards of reporting and

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transparency required of the

financial services industry, by the

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regulatory authorities in the Cayman

Islands. In doing so, I should have

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informed the house at the close

family member is a director of the

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financial services company domiciled

in the Cayman Islands, and I

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apologise unreservedly for this

omission. I am very grateful to the

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house by this early opportunity to

correct the record.

Second reading

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of the Refugees (Family Reunion)

Bill.

I beg to move that this Bill

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now be read a second time. Our

society recognises the plight of

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refugees, and our moral obligations,

as well as giving practical

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expression to our humanitarianism.

Our culture recognises the

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importance of family. So do most

cultures. This Bill recognises both.

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I want first to acknowledge the

government's contribution by way of

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funds in the Middle East and

elsewhere. Pursuing provisions in

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this Bill is not to deny the

significance of this, nor that the

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UK is setting a good example, but it

is not a complete answer. Many

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refugees from Syria are still in the

region. The strain on a neighbouring

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countries is enormous. Turkey,

Jordan, Lebanon, which is about the

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size of Wales and hosts a refugee

population amounting to around 30%

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of its total population. And it is

not a signatory to the Refugee

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Convention. If they can do so much,

we should do our bit. In 2016, the

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UK received 3% of asylum

applications made in the EU. Head of

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population, the UK ranked 18th in

the EU, with 0.6 applications per

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thousand people. In this same year

globally, 20 people became newly

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displaced every minute every day. I

know the government takes a few that

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the Bill seeks a little but is not

done already, so I will take its

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clause by clause. Clause 1.1

provides that a person with refugee

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status or humanitarian protection

may apply for permission for family

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members to join him. If I see him,

from time to time, I generally mean

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him or her. That is the position in

our current immigration rules, but

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they are rules, not primary

legislation, not secondary

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legislation, not something that

Parliament can amend or reject.

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Rules are an executive instrument

subject to change. The first three

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of the groups listed in clause 1.2

can, under the current rules, be

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sponsored, but only by adults. The

other people on the other categories

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may given leave to enter or remain

in the country by discretion. I

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don't think it's unreasonable for

them refugee to have the right to be

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joined by family members, and it

could be said that those listed are

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distant relatives. Where there is a

discretion, there are bound to be

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inconsistencies, if leaders given at

all, of course, about the type of

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leave, but the length of stay

granted. Family members may get

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different lengths. There may be a

residency criteria for housing. Some

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noble Lords when at a meeting last

week in Parliament and Harriet a

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teenager, a very mature teenager, a

very tall teenagers as well, tell a

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meeting that he had reached the UK

alone. His parents and siblings came

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later and separately. And

eventually, they were together,

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living together, briefly. He said,

they have been told they have to go

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back to Birmingham, because that is

where my mum was sent to live when

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she was an asylum seeker, and

because I came as a refugee child on

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my own, I have to live in Essex, so

we are still not together. My

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brothers and sisters are at school

in London, and my dad is working in

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a restaurant. If we had to move to

Birmingham, they would miss out on

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schooling once again and my dad

would lose his job and find a new

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one, which might not be easy. The

reason we are still separated is

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because I could not apply for a

family reunion when I came to

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England, and that is the reason I am

still living on my own. Home Office

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caseworkers do have guidance, and

they must consider exceptional

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circumstances or compassionate

factors. The guidance tells them

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that entry clearance or the grant of

leave outside the immigration rules

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is likely to be appropriate only

rarely. I heard, for instance, of a

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disabled person but the carer who is

a family member, who was allowed

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these. Exceptional circumstances is

the term we're used to considering

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in various contexts. But often,

these circumstances are in fact the

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norm in this situation. One of the

people who may, and I stress, may,

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be given leave, is an unmarried

child of rarely seen. The position

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of the 19-year-old daughter or son,

alone in a refugee camp, without

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family support, is something that

would worry any of us. At the

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meeting I referred to, we'll saw

heard from a hugely impressive Young

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Ceridian. She spoke no English when

she arrived, but for years on and

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very fluent, she is studying

aeronautical engineering. So many of

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the young refugees I have met have

been so keen to contribute to

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society. Model citizens. Her father

took the initial journey by himself.

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She and her mother later joined him

under the current rules. But only

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after several attempts to get visas

from the embassy in Beirut,

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travelling from northern Syria.

Being held up at the border,

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arriving late at the embassy, being

told that as they had missed the

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appointment, they couldn't be dealt

with. And that difficult and

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dangerous journey in both directions

had to be repeated. She said, there

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was no respect at the Embassy. There

was no respect for our papers.

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Dangerous journeys to embassies and

consulates to make up your creations

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are common story. Travelling through

war zones is not like catching a bus

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at the end of the road. Then the

other -- then there are the

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unaccompanied children, whose

situation has got the public

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imagination. I don't want to teach

humanise them by using the acronym

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UASC. That is an implicit acceptance

of the importance of family, though

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the need for serious and compelling

considerations would make exclusion

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of the child undecidable, seems to

go on the other direction and

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suggests exception allergy. But it's

not an alternative to what clause

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1.3 of the Bill provides. Among the

other requirements, the tiles can

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and will be accommodated, in

accommodation which is relative,

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usually in this situation and aunt

or uncle or a sibling. Owns and

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occupies exclusively and Siebel be

maintained by the relative without

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recourse to public funds.

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These are the criteria that cannot

be met by the relative. The child

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must hold a valid entry clearance or

leave to remain on the arrival. I

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have referred to the documentation.

A fee is payable, a substantial fee.

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In a case of child asylum seekers,

we're told by the government, if we

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were to allow them to sponsor

parents or other family, this would

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that act as a pull factor. They

would be sent here by family. So the

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family have a way in. Whether it is

consistently argued this, at the

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same time arguing what the bill

would do, as it is already applied.

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I would leave aside there are not

push factors. What evidence is there

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for this? My noble friend, Baroness

Shearman will say a lot more about

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this. Once the child has reached

Europe, the UK may have more of a

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pull factor than other countries.

Not invariably so. That is often

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called a perverse incentive to send

a car dailly-macro child out of his

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country, and quite frankly I do not

buy it. The more the situation we

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learn of France, Greece and

elsewhere, we recently debated the

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situation postie Calle jungle, and

found disturbing findings by the

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refugee rights stated project. The

more manifest is the need for safe

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and legal routes to reduce

opportunities for criminals to

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exploit and abuse. Without safe and

legal routes, children are destined

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for abuse. Giving the right to a

child refugee to have fetched

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dailly-macro their family join them

or not the novel. The UN does so,

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but we're not a signatory. Ten years

another phrase that noble Lloyds

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will be familiar, what is in the

best interest of the child? A child

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whose father has been killed in

Afghanistan, whose mother sent away

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for protection. A child in need of

protection under the Geneva

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Convention, and it is in his

interest to be joined in cared for

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by his family this noble Lords may

wonder why I've not mentioned

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document three. We are concerned

with the position post-Brexit. That

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is a regulation dealing with

arrangements between states,

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regarding the transfer of asylum

applications. A related but parallel

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issue. I have included the exception

to the rights in clause one if that

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would be in the interest of national

security. Applying this also to

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Klaus two, concerning British

citizens with family members, who

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have protection need. The problem

came to prominence just before the

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Calle jungle was broken up. A father

was settled in the UK, his daughter

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was in the jungle. He could not meet

the fees and income requirements of

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our family Visa rules. He, the

holder of a British passport, went

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to live in the jungle to look after

his daughter. Clause three allows

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for the Secretary of State to make

regulations, to extend the

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definition of family member. And to

find requirements for regulations

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for evidencing family membership or

dependency. I have referred to

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evidencing, which is not as simple

as ministers ordered during the

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passage of the legal late sentencing

and punishing offenders act. During

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the bill, ministers said the amount

to keep family reunion cases in

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scope would cost £5 million a year.

I'll leave it to noble Lords to take

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their own view of that amount.

Documents may not be available, they

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may be left behind, they may never

have been provided in the country of

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origin. DNA testing would help the

government, they use to fund it, but

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no longer. The chief inspector has

welcomed its reinstatement. I

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mention going to the embassy and

back a dangerous journey. Centres

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have been set up in France, I

understand in conjunction with the

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UK, but we hear of difficulties

reaching them and various practical

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problems. The last I heard was the

UK had sent over a single official

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to assist. I hope that is wrong. My

Lords, in everything I mentioned is

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already our law, it is not working

in practice. Hard cases make bad

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law. Bad law or no law makes hard

cases. The EU directive on the right

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to family rededication states in the

recital that it is a necessary way

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of making family life possible. It

helps to create sociocultural

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stability, facilitating the

integration of third country

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nationals in the state. Which also

serves to promote economic and

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social cohesion. My Lords, I agree,

families belong together. I beg to

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move.

The question is that this

building be now read the second

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time.

May I congratulate the noble

lady on achieving this debate, with

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a very important private members

bill. There are 65 million refugees

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in the world. One of the greatest

challenges to all of us, how we

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handled the refugee situation. The

majority of them are miles away no

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way near the United Kingdom. It is

as well to remember even though the

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Syrians, there are about 3 million

in Turkey, and Jordan and Lebanon.

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When people say to me while we

worried about child refugees coming

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to Britain, such a small number

compared to those in the region

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itself. If I can just digress from

the subject of the bill for a

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moment. I was in Saint James Church

in Piccadilly, with the vicar

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team-macro days ago, they have one

for installation, lovely old church.

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From the ceiling, hanging clothes

from refugees who arrived, who had

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discarded the clothes. A very

powerful image indeed. Just to show

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what it means to be a refugee. One

wonders what has happened to all the

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refugees whose clothes hanging up

there on that installation. The

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importance of it is public opinion.

I believe firmly we have two key

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public opinion on our side if we are

going to do a few mainly be

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refugees. I still believe, regarding

refugee children, and refugees as a

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whole. Public opinion, if informed

of what is going on. If informed of

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the experiences refugees have been

through, public opinion is by and

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large on our side. It is important

to bear that in mind, whenever any

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of us, and I have been quite a bit

involved talking about refugees, I

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say I must bear in mind that opinion

has to be with us and we can be much

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more Christian, and humane and do

better things. I believe on this

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issue, in the bill, public opinion

is certainly on our side. All we

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have to do is explain to the public

what the position is, how

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individuals are affected. The public

won't all come around. I have had a

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few abusive tweets. On the whole

public opinion is supported. We have

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two bear in mind, and every refugee

has gone through a period of

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uncertainty. At the least, sometimes

experiences have been terrible. I

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was talking to a Syrian boys some

months ago. He told me his father

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had been killed virtually in front

of him in either Aleppo or Damascus.

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He said he did not know whether rest

his family was. Suppose where the

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rest of his family are, they have

escaped from the carnage, suppose

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the rest of his family, mother and

possibly siblings are somewhere in

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Greece or Turkey. Are we going to

say that this bill should not apply,

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these children, the family should

not come and join that one boy

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there. Of course we cannot say that

it would be inhumane. It appears to

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me, save the very exceptional

circumstances, that is exactly the

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position. What the noble lady's

builders seeking to remedy. There

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are other certainties. If the child

reaches the age of 18, there is no

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assurance they can stay in this

country. That is a key issue. The

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main one for many of us is the

separation from family. To be alone,

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maybe the child came from a more

often avoid the girl from the only

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one who could make it in these

difficult circumstances. Doing the

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terrible journey. Is in fact a boy

he may take the risk. He will be

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possibly in Dunkirk, Calais,

possibly Greece. Maybe he will get

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here. What is he to do if he cannot

be joined by his family? Cannot

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think of anything more painful. Of

course for the parody themselves --

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for the family themselves do this it

is out in Greece, Turkey, Jordan,

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say we will never be able to join

our son in Britain? Do they make the

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journey themselves? The perilous

journey, subject to trafficking.

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Terrible dilemma to give a family.

To say, well, you can stay separated

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from your child, all you can make

the dangerous journey. I quote the

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Home Affairs Select Committee. They

say this very clearly, and I quote,

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it seems it was perverse that

children granted refugee status in

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the UK are not then allowed to bring

their close family to join them in

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the same when adults would be able

to do. The rights of the family

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should apply to child refugees just

as it does to adults. Surely that is

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the total argument as regards

children? There are other aspects.

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This seems to be the main one was

that is it. That is the case. The

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government need to be able to

respond to that particular case of

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the Home Affairs Select Committee.

We have heard arguments about pull

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factors. There are also push

factors. There may be there is the

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element of a pull factor. Not much

of one. A humanitarian need to do

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something to deal with these

terrible family separations. Of

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course we are told they may be

exceptional circumstances. Fine if

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the exceptional circumstances can

apply often enough, maybe that is

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why. It is still uncertain. Even if

they apply, they don't get the

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protection they would be if people

came as of right, to be united with

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their family member. Indeed the

government themselves have said, as

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the old lady quoted, exceptional

circumstances in these circumstances

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must be very rare. The complexity of

the situation is such, that without

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legal aid, it is very difficult to

make much progress. That is my mind,

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the argument, my lords. The three

provisions do not cover all cases,

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only a small number only. In any

case, they only apply when the child

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can join the family, not when the

family can during the child. I think

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there is a very clear case in favour

of this bill. A clear case,

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humanitarian case, I believe it is

put to the British people they would

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support it. That is why we should

support the bill.

My lords, I rise

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to support this bill, and commend my

local friends, for her tenacity and

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stamina in trying to improve the lot

of refugees, and asylum seekers.

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This bill is just one example of the

work she does in this area, and a

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great privilege to follow the noble

Lord has done more than anybody in

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this House in this area. My noble

friend talked about the moral

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obligations, and our

humanitarianism. Call me cynical,

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but after 30 years in the police

service you tend to become a bit

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cynical. For me, politics is often

about the number of votes a measure

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is likely to win or lose. In terms

of determining whether a government

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will support it or not. Some issues,

our desire for political advantage,

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it should take second place to our

moral obligations and

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humanitarianism. This is one of

them. My lords, it is difficult to

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imagine the trauma of being

separated from your family,

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children, or parents, for example,

in any circumstances. To know they

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are still in the dangerous part of

the world, where they could be

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killed or seriously injured. The

ready painful separation could

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become permanent that must be even

worse. Imagine having to take the

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perilous journey across the

Mediterranean, across Europe.

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Eventually seeking asylum in a

foreign country far from home, where

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you may be unable to communicate,

where you feel hostility from a

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government who expresses the wish to

make the UK a hostile place for

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illegal immigrants. And then to be

given little or no hope of ever

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seeing your family again. My lords,

some of us, apart from perhaps the

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noble Lords amongst us who are

lawyers, would hesitate to engage in

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any form of legal process engaging a

court or tribunal without legal

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representation, even in this

country. Imagine being in a foreign

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country, where you have no knowledge

of the country's legal processes,

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cannot speak the language, and

cannot afford to employ a legal

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representative. What chance would

any of us have of navigating the

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legal processes, to try to be

reunited with our family

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Now imagine that all these scenarios

are happening at the same time.

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Separated from your family,

traumatised by the danger she fled

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from, that your family still faces,

still traumatised from the perilous

0:25:150:25:20

journey you've taken, arriving in a

hostile foreign country and these

0:25:200:25:24

are the legal process you have no

understanding of and no help of

0:25:240:25:27

engaging. My Lords, if that were not

bad enough for an adult to cope

0:25:270:25:34

with, as we have heard,

unaccompanied asylum seeking

0:25:340:25:38

children have no recourse to bring

their parents or family members to

0:25:380:25:42

join them, unless there are

exceptional circumstances. And out

0:25:420:25:47

of the 28 European Union countries,

only Denmark and the United Kingdom

0:25:470:25:53

did not allowed applications for

reunification from asylum seeking

0:25:530:25:55

children. Some claim -- something

the home affairs select committee

0:25:550:26:06

described as perverse. Talking of

perversity, it is only while someone

0:26:060:26:09

is a refugee that they are able to

bring other family members to the

0:26:090:26:14

UK, without having to have

sufficiently high income to qualify,

0:26:140:26:18

to bring their family members to the

UK. If a refugee does everything

0:26:180:26:24

this country asks of him or her and

is granted British citizenship, he

0:26:240:26:28

is then prohibited from bringing his

spies to the UK, and lest he reaches

0:26:280:26:34

the income threshold. If he were to

string out his asylum application,

0:26:340:26:40

he would not have to earn such a

high salary in order to achieve that

0:26:400:26:43

end. This Bill addresses all of

these issues. It allows

0:26:430:26:51

unaccompanied refugee children to

sponsor their family members to join

0:26:510:26:54

them, it allows former refugees the

right to sponsor family members

0:26:540:26:59

asylum seekers under the refugee

reunion rules. It reintroduces legal

0:26:590:27:05

aid for a refugee family reunion

cases. What does the government,

0:27:050:27:13

what are the government's

objections? In the 2017 Conservative

0:27:130:27:19

Party manifesto, on page 65, it

topped sub out, and I quote,

0:27:190:27:26

solidarity is a conservative

principle, growing out of family,

0:27:260:27:30

community and nation. All things

Conservatives believe in and work to

0:27:300:27:33

conserve. If the government truly

bereaved in family, truly worked to

0:27:330:27:40

conserve the family, it would

support this Bill. As the noble Lord

0:27:400:27:46

has said, we're not talking about

large numbers here. I support this

0:27:460:27:50

Bill and I would ask the whole house

and the government to support it as

0:27:500:27:54

well.

I had the great privilege and

good fortune, that when I decided to

0:27:540:28:05

return to the UK, to marry my

husband, he was of New Zealand

0:28:050:28:12

extraction of British parents, I did

not have to prove that I had an

0:28:120:28:22

income, the reason I was allowed to

come here was that I had spent the

0:28:220:28:26

largest part of my life as a student

in this country. And it was accepted

0:28:260:28:31

that I could come back and live

here, and therefore when I married

0:28:310:28:34

my husband, he was invited to take a

passport. It seems to me that

0:28:340:28:44

assumptions are made about the

dependence and the families of the

0:28:440:28:50

immigrant, being needy, being in

need of resources. They are perhaps

0:28:500:28:56

worth considering in some detail.

First and foremost, I would content

0:28:560:29:02

that it is only the brightest and

the best and the most enterprising

0:29:020:29:07

who ever decide to move, because the

logistics of getting oneself from A

0:29:070:29:15

to B, particularly if there are

concerns of family, does really

0:29:150:29:22

require good tactics, good

knowledge, good diplomacy, all

0:29:220:29:25

levels of dealing with all kinds of

officialdom across the border. Also,

0:29:250:29:36

I would suggest that once such

refugees arrive here, they have so

0:29:360:29:41

much to give. As I said, both my

brother and myself, here the USA and

0:29:410:29:49

I in England, decided to stay in the

countries had studied. Therefore,

0:29:490:29:56

after the Iranians revolution, we

were both in a position to ask our

0:29:560:29:59

families to come and join us. I

don't remember that the time there

0:29:590:30:06

being any problem about as

demanding, requiring our families.

0:30:060:30:09

As it happened, one of my brothers

did go to the USA, and my father

0:30:090:30:16

decided to go to France. In France,

my father was instrumental in

0:30:160:30:26

setting up eight Law faculty in

Strasbourg, which made very good

0:30:260:30:30

money for the French government,

because a lot of students wanted to

0:30:300:30:33

go there and live there. My brother

had a research institute in the USA.

0:30:330:30:42

As my youngest brother who went

there as a hedge fund. And the

0:30:420:30:48

Yankees, who stayed in France, owns

his own research unit as well. I

0:30:480:30:54

would say there is a wealth of good

information about immigration and

0:30:540:31:01

immigrants bring, even if they go as

dependents. In addition, once

0:31:010:31:11

immigrants are here, the moral

economy of care and dictates to all

0:31:110:31:18

of us that we protect our own

therefore when immigrants arrive,

0:31:180:31:24

once they have any connections, beat

children or relatives are distant

0:31:240:31:33

relatives, we see it as our duty to

care for our own. And if you go to

0:31:330:31:39

somewhere like Bradford, you see how

rewarding matters. Not only I think

0:31:390:31:44

that immigrants have contributed

considerably to the food industry in

0:31:440:31:50

Britain and the palates of the

British, but I also would suggest

0:31:500:31:53

that they bring a whole variety of

perspectives and outlooks, which are

0:31:530:32:00

different. And what we need to do in

this world is to celebrate

0:32:000:32:05

differences. Differences are

enriching, different ways of doing

0:32:050:32:09

things help us to see better, to

have wider dimensions. My Lords, it

0:32:090:32:15

is beneficial to us all to celebrate

differences. And I think that we can

0:32:150:32:22

rely on the moral economy of care

and to be sure that those who arrive

0:32:220:32:29

to join their families would not be

a burden to the economy furlong.

I

0:32:290:32:37

congratulate my noble friend for

bringing forward this short Bill.

0:32:370:32:42

There are three reasons why I stand

to support higher and to support the

0:32:420:32:46

Bill. The first is that I remember

when I was growing up, one of the

0:32:460:32:52

many senses of pride that I have in

our country was that I was aware

0:32:520:32:57

that people had come as refugees,

particularly during and after the

0:32:570:33:01

Second World War. They had been

welcomed into our country, they have

0:33:010:33:09

made great contributions to the

country. That does all positive, but

0:33:090:33:12

it was the sense that this was a

welcoming country. A country that

0:33:120:33:17

people from other parts of the world

could look to as a place of safety,

0:33:170:33:22

a place that would nourish them and

care for them. And that we as a

0:33:220:33:28

people were doing something good and

right by providing that kind of

0:33:280:33:34

national home. It seems to me that

we have particularly in recent

0:33:340:33:39

years, and for understandable

pressures, we have changed the

0:33:390:33:45

attitude. We are pulling up the

drawbridge, and instead of being a

0:33:450:33:50

welcoming and open place, that has a

reputation for being welcoming, we

0:33:500:33:56

are seen as a place that is hard to

get to and that when you do arrive,

0:33:560:34:01

you are no longer welcome. I don't

advocate in any way, the kind of

0:34:010:34:09

open doors that Angela Merkel

embarked upon, Warmley, but it'll

0:34:090:34:17

advisedly, because it had adverse

affects in and also surveys. But I

0:34:170:34:24

do feel that our country is being

infected by this turning away from

0:34:240:34:28

the other and turning into

ourselves, and losing its reputation

0:34:280:34:33

and something of its soul. And

that's the first reason that I

0:34:330:34:37

support this Bill, because it is the

sign, it's a symbol, is an

0:34:370:34:42

indication that there is a spirit in

this country which is open and

0:34:420:34:46

welcoming to those who need a place

to come for safety. The second thing

0:34:460:34:53

is the practical expedient that I

have had over a number of years, of

0:34:530:34:56

the splitting up of marriages,

because one partner was able to live

0:34:560:35:01

here, and the other could not. Of

course, people have said, if they

0:35:010:35:07

really want to live together, the

partner who has the right to live

0:35:070:35:10

here, should go elsewhere. Easily

said. The most recent example, a

0:35:100:35:16

bright, capable young woman, given

recently a contract for a book she

0:35:160:35:21

has written, by Penguin. She's a

British citizen and saw her parents.

0:35:210:35:25

She lives here, but she married a

young man some years ago, and he

0:35:250:35:32

cannot come here, for a whole series

of reasons, to do with our

0:35:320:35:36

regulations and rules. And so she

has done that, she has gone to live

0:35:360:35:40

with him. Every time she has gone,

she has fallen seriously ill and

0:35:400:35:47

ended up in hospital. She tried

again and again, he tried again and

0:35:470:35:51

again. They were unable to get

access for him. And so again, she

0:35:510:35:56

did the same thing. She went back

out there. I just got an e-mail from

0:35:560:36:01

her to say she was back in hospital

and she hadn't been in touch with me

0:36:010:36:05

because she nearly died last week

with typhoid malaria. My Lords, the

0:36:050:36:12

truth of the human stories of the

splitting up of marriages and

0:36:120:36:17

relationships is a serious one and

it is one that we need to regard

0:36:170:36:21

with due care. But the third, my

Lords, and the one which moves me

0:36:210:36:28

most, is a situation of the

children. One of the things that I

0:36:280:36:36

do is run a little group to provide

supervision, advice and guidance for

0:36:360:36:44

younger people, alone, increasingly

everyone seems young to me, young

0:36:440:36:47

people working for NGOs and the

Foreign Office and other

0:36:470:36:51

organisations where they are

experiencing situations of conflict.

0:36:510:36:54

And they are wondering how to manage

and how to cope emotionally and how

0:36:540:36:59

to understand the dynamics of what

is happening. One of the members of

0:36:590:37:04

the group you came along for a time

was a young Syrian lawyer, who had

0:37:040:37:10

spent much of her life working in

the Middle East by the UN High

0:37:100:37:16

Commission on Refugees. Of course,

when the situation arose in Greece,

0:37:160:37:23

the UN called upon her to see, can

you come, we need everybody we can.

0:37:230:37:29

She went out to Lesbos and every

couple of days, I would get

0:37:290:37:33

photographs and e-mails of what was

happening there. But after that, the

0:37:330:37:37

situation got worse. As the news got

less for us, the news got worse for

0:37:370:37:43

them. First of all, she was asked to

come to Athens to work with Greek

0:37:430:37:48

children, because there were so many

refugee children no increase at the

0:37:480:37:53

service is good not cope, not only

with the incomers, but with Greek

0:37:530:37:57

children. Everything was beginning

to break down in another EU country.

0:37:570:38:05

We have a responsibility to those

children as EU citizens, as well as

0:38:050:38:09

to those who come in. And then she

began to tell me about the hundreds,

0:38:090:38:14

indeed thousands of children who are

on the road and two are being used

0:38:140:38:20

and abused must inevitably so. It is

almost impossible for them to find a

0:38:200:38:28

way of surviving without ending up

in the hands either of organised

0:38:280:38:34

crime or disorganised crime. When I

hear people saying, we don't want to

0:38:340:38:40

go down this road, because it will

only encourage people to come, I

0:38:400:38:48

understand that concern. But the

fact is, they are already coming,

0:38:480:38:51

they already have come. And what we

do if we do not provide the

0:38:510:38:56

opportunity for them to live in a

family circumstance, is make sure

0:38:560:39:01

that they are built into the life of

crime. We are making it impossible

0:39:010:39:07

for them to draw up in normal

families of their own. As a

0:39:070:39:13

psychiatrist, I am not naive about

families. They are not always

0:39:130:39:17

perfect, but they are a lot better

than the reality of the experience

0:39:170:39:21

of these junk people who are already

in our country and in our continent.

0:39:210:39:26

And we should not allow ourselves to

be pushed away from attending to

0:39:260:39:31

that, with the notion that by

passing a piece of legislation, we

0:39:310:39:36

are opening the doors. We're not.

We're setting down the rules, but we

0:39:360:39:40

are trying to make sure that those

children who are already here are

0:39:400:39:45

not condemned to a life of crime,

because it was the only way they

0:39:450:39:48

could survive. That is the

responsibility that this Bill is

0:39:480:39:54

trying to address and that is why I

give it my full support.

0:39:540:40:05

I am delighted this is a debate

about families, which is an apt

0:40:050:40:10

topic as Christmas approaches.

I am

not speaking of the Nathan Dilly

0:40:100:40:22

nostalgic image of the nuclear

family around the table. -- I am not

0:40:220:40:29

speaking about the nostalgic image.

I'm speaking about family, our

0:40:290:40:34

country has for so long emphasised

the family as perhaps the key

0:40:340:40:38

building block of society. At the

present time we seek urgently, for

0:40:380:40:46

social integration, society where

shared values and shared culture

0:40:460:40:50

find bind us all into a ethos of

mutual dependency. We can only to a

0:40:500:41:08

limited extent educate for this. We

have two builder. We have two

0:41:080:41:15

undermine the divisive ideology of

individualism by growing networks at

0:41:150:41:19

every level of social reality. About

the most effective growing medium

0:41:190:41:25

for this is the age-old one of

kinship. That is the family. My

0:41:250:41:32

lords, I have a particular interest

in health policy, in which I speak

0:41:320:41:36

for the Church of England. Time and

again I see how utterly vital family

0:41:360:41:42

supporters for health, both mental

and physical. How loneliness, for

0:41:420:41:49

instance, has certain negative

impacts, which have been the focus

0:41:490:41:51

of some very welcome attention

during the last year. Into this

0:41:510:41:56

scene comes the reality of refugees,

as we have been hearing. Just as the

0:41:560:42:01

holy family where refugees of the

first Christmas. Not the least

0:42:010:42:08

tragic of the consequences of war,

persecution and civil unrest around

0:42:080:42:13

the world, is the tearing apart of

families. Of children from their

0:42:130:42:18

parents, family groups from whom

interdependence is an essential

0:42:180:42:25

resource. As they strive for

resilience in the face of dreadful

0:42:250:42:29

events and such severe dangers.

People arrive in this country and in

0:42:290:42:34

Europe, perhaps coming to the

attention of the UNHCR in a conflict

0:42:340:42:39

region. A child may be adrift in a

place where he or she is easy prey

0:42:390:42:46

for traffickers. Parents may be

worried sick about their child,

0:42:460:42:51

whether under 18 or not. The exact

configuration and mutual support

0:42:510:42:57

will vary from family to family, it

isn't just a matter of parents and

0:42:570:43:01

their children. My lords, it is very

apparent, not just in the season of

0:43:010:43:10

goodwill, that British people are

desperately concerned for those

0:43:100:43:14

driven from their homes, and divided

from their families. As we heard

0:43:140:43:20

from the noble Lord. Of course,

questions about pull factors, the

0:43:200:43:28

possibility of the abuse of the

system are valid, we all understand.

0:43:280:43:33

To let them drive the direction of

policy is to let the exception

0:43:330:43:37

dictate the rule. And run the risk

of driving desperate invulnerable

0:43:370:43:44

refugees into the unscrupulous hands

of criminals. Others have a greater

0:43:440:43:51

grasp of the detail of all of this

than I do. The barriers which we are

0:43:510:43:57

currently putting up to the reunion

of refugee families seem to me to be

0:43:570:44:02

disproportionate to the benefits

which could come from individuals,

0:44:020:44:08

and for families, and for

communities as we seek to strengthen

0:44:080:44:12

family life. A theme, incidentally,

which featured strongly in all three

0:44:120:44:19

of the debates in your lordship's

House yesterday on vulnerable

0:44:190:44:25

children and poverty in the right to

justice. If stringent checks are

0:44:250:44:31

needed, let us not use that as a

means of introducing friction into

0:44:310:44:35

the system, and dissuading people

from trying to do the right thing

0:44:350:44:40

for their family. Rather, let us

provide information, the support,

0:44:400:44:47

and hopefully the legal aid, which

will help them to navigate the

0:44:470:44:54

system. Also, my lords, because

every family and every situation are

0:44:540:44:58

different, let us not draw the rules

so tightly that truly deserving

0:44:580:45:04

families are disqualified from

consideration without any attention

0:45:040:45:09

to natural justice. For example, it

is often not fair that relatives

0:45:090:45:17

under 18 at the time of application

is disqualified because he or she

0:45:170:45:23

reaches their 18th birthday during a

long, drawn-out application process.

0:45:230:45:32

Where we rightly build into our

rules discretion for their

0:45:320:45:36

interpretation with some flexibility

to allow for special circumstances,

0:45:360:45:40

perhaps we can train and support

officials to use that discretion to

0:45:400:45:46

make exceptions not grudgingly, but

with an eye towards fairness. My

0:45:460:45:53

lords, although I began with a

reference to the Christmas season.

0:45:530:46:00

This is not just something for the

season of goodwill. It is a matter

0:46:000:46:09

of our national identity. As a

hospitable nation, which strongly

0:46:090:46:15

believes in the values of family.

This bill is a natural car really of

0:46:150:46:24

those values and I supported holy.

I

add my voice to that noble Lord, and

0:46:240:46:32

it is a pleasure to follow the right

reverend, I agree with everything he

0:46:320:46:36

has said and everything that has

been said in support of this bill. I

0:46:360:46:40

have added my name to speak not

through any specialist knowledge,

0:46:400:46:44

but because it is such a good cause,

it is both morally right and humane

0:46:440:46:49

to allow refugee families to be

United. If one needed economic

0:46:490:46:54

arguments, it is a case that refugee

families who have the comfort and

0:46:540:46:59

strength of being together a much

better able to look for

0:46:590:47:03

opportunities to be part of and

contribute to the country which has

0:47:030:47:06

given them refuge. It is humanity

rather than economy which drives

0:47:060:47:11

this bill. My decision to add a

brief word was reinforced by having

0:47:110:47:15

the privilege of attending a

Parliamentary briefing to which my

0:47:150:47:20

noble friend Baroness Hanham Way has

referred, two Syrian refugees shared

0:47:200:47:27

their experiences of traumatic

journey to the United Kingdom.

0:47:270:47:31

Determination to seek refuge, and a

deep desire to live as a family. It

0:47:310:47:36

was humbling to hear two young

people who had to face terrible

0:47:360:47:41

challenges, but came through ideals

to speak with clarity and conviction

0:47:410:47:45

about measures which would help them

and others like them. As mine noble

0:47:450:47:50

friend has said we used to be an

open and welcoming country to those

0:47:500:47:54

in need of sanctuary. We have

benefited immensely from the skills

0:47:540:47:58

and dedication of people who came to

us in that way. Some of our current

0:47:580:48:04

regulations make us less welcoming.

This bill seeks to cut through the

0:48:040:48:10

cost and complexity of reuniting

families, and helping us once again

0:48:100:48:14

to show we care about those fleeing

persecution. The noble Lord has

0:48:140:48:20

already quoted from the Home Affairs

Select Committee. I would repeat

0:48:200:48:24

what they said. The right to live

safely with family should apply to

0:48:240:48:28

child refugees, just as it does to

adults. The changes proposed by this

0:48:280:48:33

bill would only affect a small

number of refugees. It would have an

0:48:330:48:38

immense effect on their lives and

prospects. Others have set out

0:48:380:48:43

further reasons why this bill is

timely and necessary. As a wealthy

0:48:430:48:48

country, we have a duty to care to

those who have little or nothing.

0:48:480:48:53

Bringing families together is a

measure we should be taking to give

0:48:530:48:57

them hope and a brighter future. I

do hope the government will look

0:48:570:49:01

favourably on the measures here, I

appreciate the bill's intentions.

0:49:010:49:06

And the beneficial effect it could

have on young people in great need,

0:49:060:49:10

and will be able to added support. I

look forward to the Ministerreply.

0:49:100:49:17

My lords, I am very pleased to rise

in support of my noble friend 's'

0:49:170:49:25

bill. And in agreement with

everything that has been said so

0:49:250:49:28

far. -- my noble friend's bill. I

want to support the bill on the

0:49:280:49:35

basis of certain principles. Firstly

continuity and can variability with

0:49:350:49:39

Alec existing EU responsibilities.

Secondly humanity. Thirdly

0:49:390:49:45

rationality. -- continuity and

compatibility. Firstly continuity

0:49:450:49:56

with EU law in unbearable

situations. Requiring examination

0:49:560:50:00

family reunion. The free movement

directive, on all our lips these

0:50:000:50:06

days. Referring to the spouse,

registered partner, direct

0:50:060:50:13

descendants, U21, or dependent,

dependent of direct relatives in the

0:50:130:50:20

ascending line. This is reflected on

the citizens rights provision of the

0:50:200:50:25

divorce agreement. Reached last

Friday, and hopefully endorsed by

0:50:250:50:31

the European Council. Today, my

noble friend, referred to the Dublin

0:50:310:50:39

regulation, known as Dublin three,

shortly to become Dublin four. A

0:50:390:50:44

different situation, it is about

grouping a family for the

0:50:440:50:50

examination of applications. It is a

parallel situation. That puts great

0:50:500:51:00

stress on the best interests of the

child, being a primary

0:51:000:51:04

consideration. Stressing how

children should not be separated on

0:51:040:51:10

family members. Member states even

have an obligation to trace family

0:51:100:51:17

members, including siblings and

other relatives. Bringing asylum

0:51:170:51:25

applications together. In the other

place, a Conservative member, Tim

0:51:250:51:31

Lowton, sort, with cross-party

support from Tim Farron and even

0:51:310:51:35

keeper to persuade the government to

continue if we Brexit, the essence

0:51:350:51:40

of the Dublin regulation. Which, as

he said, allows asylum seeking

0:51:400:51:44

children to be reunited with adult

siblings, grandparents, aunts and

0:51:440:51:48

uncles, as well as parents. He

highlighted our four children you

0:51:480:51:54

lost their parents, the last

vestiges of family connection were

0:51:540:51:59

with siblings, aunts and uncles. The

only available bit of stability and

0:51:590:52:05

continuity with their previous

existence in places like Syria. The

0:52:050:52:14

family reunification directive,

which the government did not opt

0:52:140:52:20

into in 2003, also has a much wider

definition than we have in the

0:52:200:52:24

immigration laws of family

rededication. It is noteworthy,

0:52:240:52:29

although Ireland not opt in to the

Director, it says enshrines the

0:52:290:52:35

right for unaccompanied refugees to

act as sponsors for family

0:52:350:52:40

reunification in their own domestic

law. My second principle is

0:52:400:52:44

humanity. One are the guiding

principles of the regulation of the

0:52:440:52:49

Dublin regulation I mentioned, is

that when the applicant is an

0:52:490:52:55

unaccompanied Minor, the presence of

a family member or relative in a

0:52:550:53:01

member state, who can take care of

him and hers should be a binding

0:53:010:53:05

responsibility criteria. That is how

important that is she all family

0:53:050:53:12

support is taken. In assessing the

best interests, the child member

0:53:120:53:20

states will take into account the

family rededication possibilities,

0:53:200:53:25

the minor's well-being and social

development. The safety and

0:53:250:53:31

security, in particular, where there

is a risk of the minor being a risk

0:53:310:53:35

of human trafficking. It also

mentions the views of a minor should

0:53:350:53:39

be taken into account. The 2000 free

movement directive cites as an

0:53:390:53:49

inspiration to the ferry reunion

qualifications, the right to freedom

0:53:490:53:55

and dignity. Not just of

administrative issue, they talk

0:53:550:53:59

about maintaining the unity of the

family in a broader sense. My noble

0:53:590:54:04

friend, referring to our moral

obligations, the recognition of the

0:54:040:54:09

importance of family in our culture,

really place dilly mecca places that

0:54:090:54:15

centre stage. It has begun a cliche

that politicians of a certain

0:54:150:54:19

persuasion, often of the party

governing invoke family values, my

0:54:190:54:26

friend and Lord had excited the

Conservative Party manifesto. It is

0:54:260:54:29

a time

0:54:290:54:36

My third principle is rationality.

It makes sense, on the grounds of

0:54:360:54:41

public policy, being reunited with

close family is the way to ensure

0:54:410:54:47

welfare and safety of child refugees

and improves their chances of

0:54:470:54:51

integration and recovery.

Integration promotes economic and

0:54:510:54:58

social cohesion, as my noble friend

mentioned. The splitting up of

0:54:580:55:06

families and relationships is costly

for our society and our economy, if

0:55:060:55:11

we are going to that level, as well

as being terribly costly for the

0:55:110:55:17

people concerned. There was an

article in the D'Argent newspaper

0:55:170:55:25

last week about a young man, a

teenager from Afghanistan. His

0:55:250:55:32

asylum application was initially

refused, because it was not believed

0:55:320:55:35

he was under the teen or he was from

Afghanistan. Anyway, he won his

0:55:350:55:40

appeal, but he still has no contact

with his mother or two brothers. He

0:55:400:55:45

is trying to get to college, but how

much better he would thrive in our

0:55:450:55:50

society and contribute in the way

honourable members, noble Lords,

0:55:500:55:59

have mentioned, as indeed the noble

lady barrenness. The contribution

0:55:590:56:06

and the resourcefulness that

refugees contribute to ours. So

0:56:060:56:15

there was updated guidance from the

Home Office in 2016, but it is, as

0:56:150:56:22

my noble friend mentioned, such

cases of discretion will be rare,

0:56:220:56:26

and without legal aid, making an

application outside the rules is

0:56:260:56:31

very difficult, due to the complex

rules. My Lords, separation of

0:56:310:56:42

families can have a devastating

impact on people's lives, their

0:56:420:56:47

rehabilitation and their ability to

integrate and adapts to our country.

0:56:470:56:56

And the bureaucratic hurdles and the

report from the home affairs

0:56:560:57:01

committee in the other place has

already been mentioned, stresses the

0:57:010:57:04

bureaucratic difficulty of the

sponsorship and Visa system at the

0:57:040:57:13

moment. The government should be

doing all they can to help people in

0:57:130:57:20

these circumstances, not hindering

their chance to reach safety. It

0:57:200:57:24

also recommended the government

should amend the immigration bill to

0:57:240:57:27

allow refugee children to act as

sponsors for the close families. On

0:57:270:57:32

the grounds of all those principles,

but including the last one, it makes

0:57:320:57:38

no sense, and it is as costly in

social and economic terms for us to

0:57:380:57:46

leave families divided. They will be

in the best position to start a new

0:57:460:57:49

life in the UK and contributes, as

so many have done magnificently, if

0:57:490:57:54

they have the support of their

family around them.

I need to

0:57:540:58:03

declare an interest, as a trustee of

the refugee Council, which for some

0:58:030:58:07

25 years has tried to help about

1000 unaccompanied children each

0:58:070:58:16

year navigate our complex processes.

I pay tribute to the work that the

0:58:160:58:22

noble Lord did at the Refugee

Council for many years. It still

0:58:220:58:27

goes from strength to strength, as

indeed does he. I want to speak

0:58:270:58:34

about the problem of unaccompanied

children and the alleged pull

0:58:340:58:39

factor. Until I joined the Refugee

Council, I was not aware of the

0:58:390:58:46

cruel anomaly, that unlike an adult

refugee, who has the right to bring

0:58:460:58:50

in close family members, a refugee

child, here on his or her own, has

0:58:500:58:56

no such right to be reunited. That

seems to me to be both illogical and

0:58:560:59:03

inhumane. It certainly, as the

Baroness said, is out of line with

0:59:030:59:12

European practice. Those countries

who, unlike us, were not opted out,

0:59:120:59:23

those countries who are applying the

2003 directive on family reunion,

0:59:230:59:30

they do allow unaccompanied child

refugees to bring in their families

0:59:300:59:33

subsequently. As the Baroness said,

we, and the Irish, who opted out, or

0:59:330:59:40

rather, we didn't opt in, we are in

a different position, and the Irish

0:59:400:59:46

and in a different position from us,

because they have the humility to

0:59:460:59:51

apply the system in their own

domestic law. It is written into

0:59:510:59:55

Irish law. What is being suggested

is that we should write it into our

0:59:551:00:04

domestic law, following the Irish

and the rest of the European Union.

1:00:041:00:07

It is a little shaming, I think,

that we are the odd man out. The

1:00:071:00:13

number of people who would benefit

if we corrected the anomaly is very

1:00:131:00:17

small, but the benefit to each

individual would be very large. Let

1:00:171:00:22

me cite just one example. The

Refugee Council are currently trying

1:00:221:00:27

to help a 19-year-old from Eritrea,

Solomon, who came here as an

1:00:271:00:33

unaccompanied child, has been

granted refugee status, as a job,

1:00:331:00:37

goes to college and wants to bring

in his 16-year-old sister, who is

1:00:371:00:43

now in the refugee camp in northern

Ethiopia. He has just been told that

1:00:431:00:48

he cannot. He has been in the camp

himself in the past and knows how

1:00:481:00:52

grim the conditions there are, he

knows his sister is in mortal

1:00:521:00:56

danger. She is talking of trying her

luck on the perilous illegal passage

1:00:561:01:02

across the Sahara, across the

Mediterranean. He fears she will die

1:01:021:01:07

and he blames himself for failing to

persuade us to save her. But it is

1:01:071:01:13

we who are failing these young

people. It is we who are failing to

1:01:131:01:18

show the common humanity, to live up

to the standards of the society we

1:01:181:01:22

like to think we are. Following the

second reading debate on what became

1:01:221:01:31

the Immigration Act 2016, Lord

Bates, for whom I have a very high

1:01:311:01:37

regard, wrote to those of us taking

part in the debate and asserted that

1:01:371:01:43

to permit refugee children here to

sponsor requests from their parents

1:01:431:01:46

and siblings to join them, I caught,

could result in children being

1:01:461:01:52

encouraged or even forced to leave

existing family units in their

1:01:521:01:58

country and risk hazardous journeys

to the UK, in order to act as

1:01:581:02:02

sponsors. This is the pull factor

theory. And with respect, it is

1:02:021:02:09

totally lacking in evidential

credibility or plausibility, and

1:02:091:02:14

does not reflect well on the

government. Mr Justice McCluskey,

1:02:141:02:20

overturning in the upper chamber the

refusal of the application by a

1:02:201:02:23

19-year-old granted refugee status

to bring his mother to join him,

1:02:231:02:29

ruled that there is no evidence

underlying it, it being the cool

1:02:291:02:35

factor. It is inherently

implausible. Families living in hand

1:02:351:02:41

to mouth existence in the squalor of

the refugee camp in Ethiopia,

1:02:411:02:48

Eritrea, Jordan, Libya, is

implausible to suggest that they sit

1:02:481:02:51

down at the dinner table and make a

cold calculation, coming up with the

1:02:511:02:58

cunning, multi-year plan, to send

one of the children through bandits

1:02:581:03:04

and traffickers, across deserts and

ocean, in the hope of reaching our

1:03:041:03:10

lands, navigating our system and

securing a right, if the Bill

1:03:101:03:16

passes, to bring in the rest of the

family. The world is not like that.

1:03:161:03:21

This is a strange, sick, Swifty in

joke, not worthy of the modest

1:03:211:03:27

proposal. Parents do not send the

children of. The children and adults

1:03:271:03:37

are not driven by a pull factor,

they are driven by a push factor.

1:03:371:03:41

They are fleeing from conditions

which are intolerable. They are

1:03:411:03:45

fleeing for their lives. If the

Minister has been briefed to warn us

1:03:451:03:52

against the perils of the pull

factor, in relation to unaccompanied

1:03:521:03:57

children, I really hope she will

not. I think she should go back to

1:03:571:04:02

the Home Office and ask her

officials how often they have been

1:04:021:04:06

to the camps and how many of these

cruel parents they have spotted in

1:04:061:04:10

the camps. Plotting to force the

child to come here. And she might

1:04:101:04:19

ask her officials why their

colleagues in all other EU capitals

1:04:191:04:27

currently have not spotted these

cruel, Carlos, Swifty and parents.

1:04:271:04:32

And why does the UN Committee On The

Rights Of The Child now urge the UK

1:04:321:04:42

to review its asylum policy in order

to facilitate family reunion for

1:04:421:04:46

unaccompanied and separated refugee

children. Why is the whole regiment

1:04:461:04:52

out of step, except us? Why do we

know better than everybody else? Why

1:04:521:04:59

does the pull factor only apply to

this Emerald Isle. The best way of

1:04:591:05:09

convincing your Lordships would be

for us all to see the striking new

1:05:091:05:17

film Human Flow. Moving with, it

captures the scale and misery of the

1:05:171:05:25

human loss of current refugee

crises. The despair of their broken

1:05:251:05:29

societies. Against this huge canvas

of human tragedy, this Bill is a

1:05:291:05:36

pitifully small thing, but passing

it would be the right thing, the

1:05:361:05:40

decent thing to do. I support it.

I

thought it was rather sad that

1:05:401:05:47

nobody from the side of the house

was taking part. I would like

1:05:471:05:52

briefly to give my support to the

general principles of the Bill. I am

1:05:521:05:57

so glad that the noble Lord

mentioned Jonathan Swift's modest

1:05:571:06:06

proposal. My Lords, if you haven't

read it and you don't read anything

1:06:061:06:09

else during the Christmas recess,

look it up. It won't take you long

1:06:091:06:14

and is the most wonderful, area

guide, witty, scintillating

1:06:141:06:19

indictment of nonsense that you will

ever read. My Lords, I just wanted

1:06:191:06:24

to contribute to this debate for

three reasons. In 1945, I remember

1:06:241:06:33

we had, in our own small home, a

couple of Polish children, roughly

1:06:331:06:39

of my own age, sex or thereabouts.

They came from a camp in

1:06:391:06:46

Lincolnshire, not very far from

Grimsby, will be left, on 23

1:06:461:06:50

separate occasions to spend the day.

And my father was on the point of

1:06:501:06:55

making an application to see if we

could adopt at least one of them,

1:06:551:07:01

when mercifully, they were reunited

with their family. And the joy, I

1:07:011:07:05

can still remember. And then, when I

came into the other place, in 1970,

1:07:051:07:14

I had not been long way when I was

very proud to support Edward Heath's

1:07:141:07:23

welcoming of the Ugandan Asians. And

like Jewish people before the last

1:07:231:07:30

war, and those who like the noble

Lord came with the Kenned transport,

1:07:301:07:36

that influx in enriched our society.

We even have at least one of them

1:07:361:07:44

among our number in the house. And

then again, I remember, as chairman

1:07:441:07:57

of the campaign for the release of

Soviet jury, helping to welcome in

1:07:571:08:03

Vienna those who got their visas to

get out of the Soviet Union and the

1:08:031:08:06

repressive conditions there, and

come to the west. My Lords, we are

1:08:061:08:12

moving towards Brexit. I acknowledge

it, much as I regret it. But the one

1:08:121:08:18

thing we must not move towards is an

isolationist position in the

1:08:181:08:26

continent of Europe. We must remain

a leading nation. We are a leading

1:08:261:08:33

nation with the proud history,

welcoming those fleeing from

1:08:331:08:39

persecution. Of course we have got

to be careful as to how we fit

1:08:391:08:44

people in this age of terrorism and

so on. But earlier this year, when I

1:08:441:08:51

was on the home affairs sub

committee, before I was sacked for

1:08:511:08:57

voting as I did in the Article 50

Bill, we had a group of children who

1:08:571:09:02

came before us and he gave testimony

to us. Any private session. My

1:09:021:09:11

Lords, it was deeply moving. And

this country, with its proud record

1:09:111:09:19

going back centuries, welcoming the

Huguenots in the 17th century and so

1:09:191:09:27

on, this country has a role which it

must not abandon. My Lords, the

1:09:271:09:33

family unit is the building block of

any society. And if we can help, to

1:09:331:09:41

have some family units from those

countries which are riven by famine

1:09:411:09:51

and a civil war and strife, we will

be living up to our proud history,

1:09:511:09:58

and if this Bill helps us to do so,

it deserves our full and unreserved

1:09:581:10:03

support.

1:10:031:10:10

Mac and mend my noble lord for

bringing this Bill to the House.

1:10:101:10:17

Fighting for asylum seekers and

refugees coming to the UK has been

1:10:171:10:19

something she has been long

involving. To date we are powerful

1:10:191:10:25

arguments on all sides of the house.

I thank the noble Lord for his

1:10:251:10:30

speech which allows me to say all

sides of the house. We have heard

1:10:301:10:33

had devastating it is for families

to be separated from close family

1:10:331:10:37

members. The desperate measures some

are forced to take to escape the

1:10:371:10:43

situation they find themselves in.

We know this government, and my

1:10:431:10:54

noble friends that the government

places great store on family values.

1:10:541:10:59

I hope they will give serious

consideration to the measured asks

1:10:591:11:04

in this bill. There are two reasons

I particularly wanted to speak in

1:11:041:11:10

this debate. The first one is one of

the hardest things I have had to

1:11:101:11:14

listen to is a mother describing

having to make the choice between

1:11:141:11:18

staying in a dangerous situation

with young children or fleeing to

1:11:181:11:23

safety with them. The price of

safety was to leave behind a young

1:11:231:11:29

daughter. Because our rules say as

an over 18-year-old, she is adult

1:11:291:11:36

and old enough to fend for herself.

My Lords, I have three children all

1:11:361:11:41

in their early 20s. I would utterly

disagree with their ability to fend

1:11:411:11:48

for themselves, even in London. The

thought of a young girl on her own

1:11:481:11:53

without even the protection of close

family in a conflict zone is a

1:11:531:11:57

chilling one. That is a choice

parents are being asked to make. The

1:11:571:12:03

second reason is the example of a

young person from Eritrea I met in

1:12:031:12:09

the Calais jungle, at this time all

alone far from home. He went there

1:12:091:12:21

to joke with his uncle. He and many

of those in northern France were

1:12:211:12:28

forced to play refugee roulette,

through dangerous and illegal means.

1:12:281:12:33

As the noble Lord said, we're only

talking about a very small number of

1:12:331:12:38

children. You are unaccompanied.

Alone in northern France and other

1:12:381:12:44

parts of Europe. It would not take

much on our parts to fulfil our

1:12:441:12:50

legal obligation, to bring 480

children to the UK. These are only

1:12:501:12:59

two stories. We have heard a few

others, all stories of suffering

1:12:591:13:07

that are quite frankly avoidable,

and that a small cost to ourselves,

1:13:071:13:11

we could remedy this situation. I

don't know exactly what the noble

1:13:111:13:17

lady, the minister was saying, in

response to the government. In the

1:13:171:13:22

past, all to often, they have said,

and the noble Lord Lord Kerr has

1:13:221:13:31

taken on board the arguments about

why they do not give evidence to the

1:13:311:13:45

government the contractors. The

assertion it is the easing family

1:13:451:13:50

reunification which will create

those factors. Secondly, too often

1:13:501:13:55

the government has said in response

to debates on the issues. Those

1:13:551:14:02

factors will encourage more

smugglers to operate. Let me first

1:14:021:14:08

addressed the pull factors. Quite

frankly this is a figleaf. There is

1:14:081:14:14

not a single shred of evidence for

this. I have evidence from my

1:14:141:14:19

position. I would like to hear the

evidence from the government for

1:14:191:14:26

theirs. My Lords there is ample

correlation between push factors

1:14:261:14:34

such as complex, hateful regimes and

famine forcing people to do the

1:14:341:14:38

unthinkable, leaving their homes,

communities, with only what they can

1:14:381:14:44

carry. Alexander Betts, head of the

refugee studies Centre at the

1:14:441:14:48

University of Oxford says in a new

scientist article in September 20

1:14:481:14:54

15th no existing sound research

substantiates the political claim

1:14:541:14:57

that giving people asylum in Europe

stimulates more flow. In an e-mail

1:14:571:15:03

to me, Professor Ian Golding, head

of the Oxford Martin School on

1:15:031:15:09

global challenges says there is no

credible evidence for the

1:15:091:15:12

government's claim on pull factors.

The simplest argument is that the

1:15:121:15:18

pull factors have not changed, and

yet the refugee numbers have

1:15:181:15:22

increased dramatically. The pull

factors that are cited for the UK,

1:15:221:15:27

such as higher wages, attraction to

the Social Security benefits are

1:15:271:15:33

relatively unchanged over many

years. Yet the refugee numbers

1:15:331:15:36

change dramatically. And can be

shown to be directly related to the

1:15:361:15:41

push factors. Notably complex in

Syria, Afghanistan and elsewhere.

1:15:411:15:51

Can I cite from the Council of

Europe report, the fact finder Kiwic

1:15:511:15:55

L commission on migrants in Calais.

By the ambassador he says I was told

1:15:551:16:06

by the authorities there was a

reluctance to improve conditions,

1:16:061:16:09

because of concerns this would act

as a pull factor. Leading more

1:16:091:16:14

migrants to make their way to

Calais. It seems clear to me that

1:16:141:16:17

the poor conditions have not acted

as a deterrent so far. It raises

1:16:171:16:23

potential issues, and about

degrading treatment, and article

1:16:231:16:32

eight, right to respect for family

life for the European Convention on

1:16:321:16:35

Human Rights. My Lords, the home

affairs subcommittee in its report

1:16:351:16:45

last July, on unaccompanied migrant

children, chaired by the Baroness,

1:16:451:16:51

said we receive no evidence of

families sending children as anchors

1:16:511:16:56

following the fermentation of the

family reunification directive,

1:16:561:17:01

directed by other member states. We

were also told that in some cases

1:17:011:17:08

unaccompanied children in the UK

declined to take advantage of

1:17:081:17:15

tracing and the reunification

procedures, even when these were

1:17:151:17:18

offered. Kent County Council wrote

that the Red Cross is used to trace

1:17:181:17:24

family living abroad, although our

experience is that there is limited

1:17:241:17:30

take-up of this service from young

people. This is not surprising as

1:17:301:17:35

many unaccompanied migrant children

fear attempts to trace family

1:17:351:17:39

members living in their countries of

origin could put those family

1:17:391:17:42

members in danger. There you have

it, my lord. Pull factors, whether

1:17:421:17:51

through improving humanitarian

conditions, or easing Family Reunion

1:17:511:17:54

rules, will not cause people to pack

up their lives in a backpack, and

1:17:541:18:00

risk an extremely hazardous journey,

to come to the UK. To do that, they

1:18:001:18:03

have to be pushed and pushed hard.

This was a quick mention on

1:18:031:18:12

smugglers. Do the rules currently

existing keep refugees out of the

1:18:121:18:17

clutches of ruthless people

smugglers? The government is correct

1:18:171:18:21

in saying smugglers are real to

refugees. In fact, even authorities

1:18:211:18:28

in Europe, with all their many

resources, cannot deal with the

1:18:281:18:33

smugglers, currently operating in

Europe. Valuable refugees fear them

1:18:331:18:38

even more. The fact of the matter

is, the fewer safe and legal routes

1:18:381:18:44

there are to process asylum seekers,

the more power the smugglers have.

1:18:441:18:52

The human trafficking foundation's

independent enquiry in July of this

1:18:521:18:56

year, co-chaired by Fiona McTaggart,

and Baroness Butler-Sloss found no

1:18:561:19:04

evidence whatsoever that by creating

a safe and legal route to safety in

1:19:041:19:09

the UK, you create a pull factor,

for traffickers targeting vulnerable

1:19:091:19:17

children in fact, it found the

opposite. By closing off such

1:19:171:19:21

routes, it feeds the trafficking and

smuggling networks. The prices to

1:19:211:19:28

get to the UK illegally go up

forcing children into situations

1:19:281:19:33

when they are exposed to

exploitation, sexual, or criminal,

1:19:331:19:39

or labour. Or maybe a combination of

all three. The simple truth coming

1:19:391:19:45

out of the enquiry, instead of

protecting children who have fled to

1:19:451:19:51

Europe for safety. The government is

failing them, leaving the way open

1:19:511:19:55

for smugglers and traffickers to

exploit them. My Lords, as a number

1:19:551:20:01

of noble Lords in the House have

said, it comes down to what kind of

1:20:011:20:05

Britain do we want to live in. An

open and welcoming country, those

1:20:051:20:12

seeking sanctuary, or a close one.

It is time to stop flouting our

1:20:121:20:21

duties, to some of the most

unfortunate people on the planet.

1:20:211:20:25

And step up to the mark as decent

human beings. Pulling our weight on

1:20:251:20:29

the international stage.

My Lords I

congratulate the noble lady,

1:20:291:20:42

Baroness Hanham Way on her bill. The

purpose of which, to provide lead,

1:20:421:20:49

or remained in the United Kingdom,

for the family members of refugees.

1:20:491:20:53

And to refugees you are family

members of British citizens. In her

1:20:531:20:56

opening speech, the noble lady,

Baroness Hanham Way explained the

1:20:561:21:02

purpose behind the provisions of the

Bill, including the extension of the

1:21:021:21:07

list of eligible family members who

can be sponsored in an application.

1:21:071:21:12

Humanitarian status of protection.

The bill also provides for the

1:21:121:21:16

reinstatement for the provision of

legal aid, in respect to Family

1:21:161:21:21

Reunion cases, which can be complex,

and the process itself, lengthy. The

1:21:211:21:27

current position under our

immigration rules, individuals

1:21:271:21:32

making an asylum application may

only include in that application a

1:21:321:21:36

spouse or partner, married partner

or children under the age of 18.

1:21:361:21:39

With the pendant is being granted

leave to enter or remain in the UK

1:21:391:21:42

for the same generation as a sponsor

if the printable application is

1:21:421:21:48

granted. Child asylum seekers in

this country are not legal to

1:21:481:21:53

sponsored Jilly Macca -- sponsor

carer or parent to join. The

1:21:531:22:04

significant impact this could have,

and addressing the issue of

1:22:041:22:10

vulnerability of unaccompanied

children. The exploitation many of

1:22:101:22:13

them experience. 18 months ago, the

House of Commons home affairs

1:22:131:22:18

committee issued a report which

amongst other things called on the

1:22:181:22:21

government to amend immigration laws

allow refugees to act as sponsors

1:22:211:22:27

for close family. The committee

argued, as my noble friend Lord Dubs

1:22:271:22:33

said, it was the first children

granted refugee status in UK are not

1:22:331:22:39

allowed to bring close family to

join them. The same when adult would

1:22:391:22:43

be able to do. The right to live

safely with family should apply to

1:22:431:22:48

refugees as it does to adults. Ship

that the are are family reunion

1:22:481:22:56

policy met our international

obligations. Saying there was

1:22:561:22:59

permission to grant a visa, which

could be used in respect of extended

1:22:591:23:04

family members. Including parents

and children, recognised as refugees

1:23:041:23:08

here in exceptional circumstances.

However we are one of only two EU

1:23:081:23:15

countries who have even adopted, or

opted into the EU directive on

1:23:151:23:19

Family Reunion, which sets out

unaccompanied child refugees are

1:23:191:23:25

entitled to be reunited with family

members. Or alternatively providing

1:23:251:23:29

for this in domestic law. Could the

noble lady or the minister, when she

1:23:291:23:36

responds to provide information on

the number of visas granted outside

1:23:361:23:40

of the rules in exceptional

circumstances since July 2016 when

1:23:401:23:45

updated guidance was published. And

the number of which were, in respect

1:23:451:23:53

of children and refugees recognised

here. Could the noble lady or the

1:23:531:23:56

Minister provide this guidance

outside the rules in exceptional

1:23:561:24:06

circumstances, and how the terms

differ, in respect to relatives

1:24:061:24:10

joining in the UK relative to the

applicable rules. I hope the

1:24:101:24:16

government will feel able to give a

supportive response to this bill.

1:24:161:24:19

Even know that would be contrary to

their approach to date. If the

1:24:191:24:25

government do not intend to be

helpful, and I'm conscious in the

1:24:251:24:29

way they failed to deliver on the

spirit of the Dubs Amendment. The

1:24:291:24:34

least they can do is allow the

reasons in some detail, and the hard

1:24:341:24:38

evidence to support those reasons.

Bearing in mind the devastating

1:24:381:24:42

impact both short and long term,

about which we heard to date, that

1:24:421:24:47

family separation can have on those

affected. Not least on children and

1:24:471:24:50

young people.

1:24:501:24:56

What impact on the net migration

figures does the Government think

1:24:561:24:59

that this bill would have? What is

their hard evidence to support this

1:24:591:25:04

conclusion. I asked that in the

context that the figure has fallen

1:25:041:25:09

remarkably recently, following the

decision to withdraw from the

1:25:091:25:13

European Union and the hostile

climates that that provoked. Also,

1:25:131:25:17

in the context that the Government

does not apply existing EU rules, as

1:25:171:25:22

firmly as its code within those

rules. As some other EU countries

1:25:221:25:29

do. Indeed, the Government does not

even know what the impact is on the

1:25:291:25:34

net migration figures is not

applying these EU rules as firmly as

1:25:341:25:38

it could. I also asked the question

in the context that we have only

1:25:381:25:43

found out recently that the

Government, to put it politely, have

1:25:431:25:48

been working and Amis apprehends

Asian on the numbers -- working on a

1:25:481:25:56

misapprehension about the numbers of

students who stay on after studying.

1:25:561:25:59

I also ask in the context that the

Government has no idea of the number

1:25:591:26:04

of people in this country illegally,

and focuses only on making it harder

1:26:041:26:08

for this unknown number of people to

live in this country illegally.

1:26:081:26:13

Finally, I asked the question about

the Government's estimate of the

1:26:131:26:18

impact on the net migration figure

of this bill. In the context that

1:26:181:26:23

the Government has had control over

the size of the net migration figure

1:26:231:26:26

for people from outside the U, and

have had no issues since 2010,

1:26:261:26:33

that's net migration figure being

consistently way above the

1:26:331:26:37

Government's claimed target figure

of total net migration figure being

1:26:371:26:43

of the tens of thousands, this

contradiction no doubt being the

1:26:431:26:48

case, no doubt because what ever has

been publicly declared, the

1:26:481:26:52

Government knows only too well be

benefits to this country that

1:26:521:26:55

immigrants have brought and continue

to bring. So, I hope in the light of

1:26:551:27:02

all these factors, that the

Government is not going to try and

1:27:021:27:07

argue and imply that we do not have

the capacity to take into our

1:27:071:27:12

country the additional people under

humanitarian and family reunion

1:27:121:27:17

principles that might come here

under the provisions of this bill,

1:27:171:27:21

unless the Government is going to

provide hard evidence that the

1:27:211:27:23

figure could be well above what

might be anticipated. In total

1:27:231:27:31

contrary to the Government's overall

approach to net migration, which in

1:27:311:27:35

reality has been so somewhat

different from the public impression

1:27:351:27:42

it seeks to give, for electoral

purposes, that its policy is to

1:27:421:27:47

bring that figure into the tens of

thousands, as a matter of priority.

1:27:471:27:58

My Lords, may I first thank the

noble lady for raising this very

1:27:581:28:04

important issue that we often

discussed in the Lordship's house,

1:28:041:28:11

and my Lords, could I just state

upfront, I think it would be useful,

1:28:111:28:17

and this is particularly in response

to the noble lord and Lady, my noble

1:28:171:28:24

friend, that I would totally agree

that immigration, and I say this as

1:28:241:28:30

an immigrant, has enriched the UK,

and particularly, for refugees who

1:28:301:28:35

have made the UK their home, since

2010, my Lords, we have granted more

1:28:351:28:43

than 100,000 refugees have permanent

residence in the UK. In the year

1:28:431:28:50

ending 2017, it was 9000 children,

found such shelter, security and

1:28:501:28:55

safety in the UK. 49,000 since 2010,

and we are committed to resettling

1:28:551:29:03

up to 3000 honourable children,

together with their families from

1:29:031:29:08

the Middle East and North Africa

region, and 20,000 by 2020. Around

1:29:081:29:16

half of whom, will be children. That

is the facts to date. In addition,

1:29:161:29:23

in comparison to the EU, my Lords, I

think we can stand proud, because,

1:29:231:29:32

in 2016, the UK resettled more

refugees, that adult and children,

1:29:321:29:36

than any other EU member state. And,

over a third of all resettlement of

1:29:361:29:43

the EU, was to the UK. We are a

welcoming country, and we remain a

1:29:431:29:49

welcoming country. The noble Lord

asked how many visas had been issued

1:29:491:29:57

outside of the immigration rules in

family reunion cases, I can give him

1:29:571:30:06

2015 and 2016 figures, it doesn't

15, we issue 21 visas outside the

1:30:061:30:11

immigration rules, in 2016, we

issued 49, and up to September 2017,

1:30:111:30:20

we have issued 49. My Lords, whether

there are exceptional items that

1:30:201:30:25

depend very much on the facts of

each case, but may include, for

1:30:251:30:28

example, an adult dependence or

someone living in a context conflict

1:30:281:30:38

zone, or a dangerous situation.

Since we have published the

1:30:381:30:43

guidance, entry clearance officers

have provided a increased number of

1:30:431:30:49

applicants outside of the age.

Outside -- outside of the rules. My

1:30:491:31:02

noble friend, Lord made the

important point that we must not

1:31:021:31:10

turn inwards. Britain has always

been an outward looking country, and

1:31:101:31:14

we will remain so on leaving the

European Union. We will continue to

1:31:141:31:18

uphold our international

obligations, and welcome refugees to

1:31:181:31:22

our shores as he sides we have done

throughout history. But, I have

1:31:221:31:28

listened, my Lords to concerns for

the those separated from family

1:31:281:31:36

members by conflict or repression,

and no one, but no one could fail to

1:31:361:31:40

be moved by the thought of close

family living in conflict zones, or

1:31:401:31:46

dangerous situations. That is why

this Government only supports the

1:31:461:31:49

principle of family unity, as we

have already got a proper heads of

1:31:491:31:55

framework for family members to be

realised. This is set out in

1:31:551:32:02

immigration rules, and our family

union policy, rather than primary

1:32:021:32:07

lesson legislation.

1:32:071:32:18

In my Lords, there is already in

place for extended family of

1:32:181:32:21

refugees in the UK to support

children where there are serious and

1:32:211:32:26

compelling circumstances, and for

British citizens to bring family

1:32:261:32:29

here, so that there is no need for

children, in particular, to make the

1:32:291:32:35

illegal and Ginger 's journeys to

get to the UK. -- dangerous

1:32:351:32:39

journeys. The noble Lords and the

noble Baroness, talked about people

1:32:391:32:56

factor, and the Government not

having evidence of that pull factor.

1:32:561:33:00

I absolutely accept, that there

rather push factors, and it

1:33:001:33:07

important that we don't create

further incentives for asylum

1:33:071:33:12

seekers to choose to come here,

illegally, rather than claim asylum

1:33:121:33:17

from the first country that they

reach. I think it is important to

1:33:171:33:22

note that the Bush factor of civil

war, or persecution, is the deciding

1:33:221:33:28

factor of whether or not an

individual freeze their country, but

1:33:281:33:32

we must do all that we can, to

support those in need of protection,

1:33:321:33:37

to claim asylum in the first set

country, to avoid these dangerous

1:33:371:33:43

secondary movements, and we know

that changes in policy, impact on

1:33:431:33:48

asylum seeker's choices with regards

to those secondary movements.

1:33:481:33:55

Germany, for example, in 2015, saw

its asylum in teak increased by 155%

1:33:551:34:03

-- intake. More than 5% were from

countries in the Balkans, which

1:34:031:34:13

thankfully has not seen conflict for

more than 20 years. The noble lady

1:34:131:34:18

talk about us no longer offering DNA

tests for family children. There is

1:34:181:34:28

no requirement to provide DNA

evidence, or any other particular

1:34:281:34:31

type of evidence, because we

recognise that documentary evidence

1:34:311:34:38

might not always be available,

particularly in countries where

1:34:381:34:42

there is no administrative

authority. We have improved our

1:34:421:34:44

guide to hide light the challenges

-- highlight the challenges that

1:34:441:34:49

applicants may face in this regard.

My Lords have highlighted the fact

1:34:491:34:56

that family reunion rules only

provide for the immediate family,

1:34:561:35:02

but our policy caters for extended

family living in precarious or

1:35:021:35:06

dangerous circumstances. There is a

provision to grant visas outside of

1:35:061:35:09

the rules, and, in exceptional

cases, unpublished guidelines for

1:35:091:35:17

caseworkers makes that clear. The

noble lord asked about the British

1:35:171:35:25

citizens former refugees, that they

cannot sponsor family members under

1:35:251:35:28

family reunion, but my Lords, most

refugees would complete six and

1:35:281:35:36

years leave to remain, before they

can apply for citizenship, and they

1:35:361:35:41

can talk to their family members at

any point in those six years, but

1:35:411:35:46

the resource provision for British

citizens with exceptional

1:35:461:35:49

circumstances, and I can write to

him further about this if he wishes.

1:35:491:35:54

But, my Lords, I must be clear that

the rules will remain in place after

1:35:541:35:59

our exit from the European Union.

1:35:591:36:10

Dublin does not confer immigration

status, simply because an individual

1:36:121:36:18

has a family member in the UK, it is

a mechanism for does not --

1:36:181:36:29

mechanism for deciding... Those

transferred under Dublin may need to

1:36:291:36:31

leave if they are found not to need

protection. Our family reunion rules

1:36:311:36:37

will continue to enable immediate

family members to safely reunite

1:36:371:36:41

with their loved ones in the UK,

regardless of the country in which

1:36:411:36:47

those family members are. In

addition, those recognised as

1:36:471:36:57

refugees, may be able to reunite

throughout mandate resettlement

1:36:571:37:01

scheme. Individuals are referred to

UK visas and immigration by an HDR,

1:37:011:37:07

where resettlement of the UK is

deemed appropriate. We need to

1:37:071:37:11

ensure existing schemes are used to

full effect, to benefit family

1:37:111:37:15

members living in regions of

conflict, and for this, we rely on

1:37:151:37:22

UNHCR, referring more people for the

settlement under these schemes. My

1:37:221:37:25

Lords, I can assure you, that we are

listening to concerns about family

1:37:251:37:32

reunion, and I am discussing with

NGOs how we can make improvement, as

1:37:321:37:38

part of our wider strategy? Our

starting point, is, is that family

1:37:381:37:43

reunion is a matter for immigration

rules and policy, rather than

1:37:431:37:47

primary legislation. I believe that

those rules already cater for

1:37:471:37:50

certain types of cases, and noble

lord are concerned about, and I

1:37:501:37:55

agree entirely that we may need to

ensure that the policy is delivered

1:37:551:38:00

in practice. Noble lady refers to

the immigration rules 319 by, for

1:38:001:38:17

unaccompanied children, and we are

looking at that rule, whether we

1:38:171:38:27

are, this is being discussed with

organisations such as Unicef. The

1:38:271:38:38

noble lord made the point that our

policy is perverse, out of step with

1:38:381:38:44

the rest of Europe, my lord our

family reunion policy makes our

1:38:441:38:49

international obligations and allows

-- meets our international

1:38:491:38:54

obligations and allows thousands of

refugees to be reunited with their

1:38:541:38:58

immediate families, and we would

regularly review our family reunion

1:38:581:39:02

policy in other member states, and

we note that some are seeking to

1:39:021:39:05

impose more stringent requirements.

I have already laid out some of the

1:39:051:39:13

figures, but, it is important, that

our system does not encourage asylum

1:39:131:39:17

seekers who are arriving in a safe

country to elsewhere. We must

1:39:171:39:27

undermine the movement from six

countries would undermine to help

1:39:271:39:29

those most in need. Both noble lord

is talked about reinstating legal

1:39:291:39:38

aid, in family reunion cases, my

Lords, we are committed to providing

1:39:381:39:43

clear guidance and application forms

to support customers through the

1:39:431:39:46

family reunion process, and, again

we are working closely with key

1:39:461:39:51

partners such as the Red Cross and

Unicef, to further improve the

1:39:511:40:00

process for action considering

family reunion applications, so that

1:40:001:40:04

people understand what is expected

of them, and to ensure that policy

1:40:041:40:08

works in practice, --. My Lords,

legal aid is paid for by taxpayers,

1:40:081:40:16

and the resources, as noble lord are

not limitless, so it is important

1:40:161:40:20

that it is provided for those most

in need, including those who claim

1:40:201:40:24

asylum.

1:40:241:40:30

I believe that our focus remains on

those who need protection and those

1:40:301:40:35

who are fleeing conflict. I am aware

of the importance of those

1:40:351:40:42

recognised as refugees in the UK of

having their family joined them pay

1:40:421:40:47

to support their integration. That

is why our policy allows immediate

1:40:471:40:51

family to come here, whether they

need protection in their own right

1:40:511:40:55

or not. More importantly, this

government significant resettlement

1:40:551:41:01

commitments are designed to keep

families together. It is worth

1:41:011:41:06

reflecting on the contribution that

the government has made to support

1:41:061:41:10

those fleeing conflict and

oppression. I have laid out some of

1:41:101:41:14

the figures earlier, but we have

expanded our resettlement

1:41:141:41:18

commitments to raise resettle

over... In addition, we have

1:41:181:41:25

committed 2.46 billion of

humanitarian aid to the Syrian

1:41:251:41:27

conflict. My lords, in conclusion, I

think we already have a

1:41:271:41:35

comprehensive framework to provide

safe and legal routes for family to

1:41:351:41:38

reunite hair. Instead of primary

legislation, we must ensure that our

1:41:381:41:44

existing family reunion policy is

delivered in practice. That is one

1:41:441:41:48

of the points the noble lady Conway

made right at the outset. Including

1:41:481:41:55

visas granted outside the rules and

in exceptional circumstances. And

1:41:551:41:59

that our resettlement schemes are

used to affect so we can help those

1:41:591:42:05

who need it most. May I thank the

noble lady and could ask her to

1:42:051:42:11

continue to work with the government

deceit if there are any other ways

1:42:111:42:15

in which we can build on the family

reunion policy. And process with out

1:42:151:42:22

the need for primary legislation.

My

lords, I would like to thank

1:42:221:42:30

everybody supported this bill. I

would like to thank the Minister not

1:42:301:42:35

only for the response, but for the

last offer, I am happy to work with

1:42:351:42:45

anyone however much I disagree with

certain aspects as to what is being

1:42:451:42:48

done. The governments positive

response to refugees really does not

1:42:481:42:56

accord with what speakers have had

and know and have told the House. No

1:42:561:43:01

doubt that is because so many people

are affected. Much reference has

1:43:011:43:06

been made, the pull factors. I will

adopt the time implausible. -- Tama.

1:43:061:43:21

... With regard to the rules, simply

repeat again I don't want to make my

1:43:211:43:30

speech all over again, that

exceptional circumstances have

1:43:301:43:34

actually become normal

circumstances. So you cannot apply

1:43:341:43:39

the accepts Shin Amity factor. The

fact remains we have a situation

1:43:391:43:44

where it is of huge concern to all

noble lords regarding separated

1:43:441:43:50

families. The comprehensive

framework which has been referred to

1:43:501:43:57

by the Minister is not one which is

doing the job we all want to see.

1:43:571:44:01

The threads which have run

throughout this debate include how

1:44:011:44:08

we wish our country in 2017 to be

and to be perceived. Including one

1:44:081:44:17

which expresses its humanity and the

value of family. And the practical

1:44:171:44:24

reasons also. Including those who

are not... About the enrichment of

1:44:241:44:29

our society. Reference was made at

the start to informed public

1:44:291:44:37

opinion. Politicians need to take

the lead in informing public

1:44:371:44:40

opinion. And in debating with the

public. And I hope that noble lords

1:44:401:44:48

will agree to give this bill eight

Second Reading.

The question is that

1:44:481:44:57

this bill will now be read a second

time. Those content will stop those

1:44:571:45:02

not content.

My lords, I beg to urge

the bill be moved to the committee

1:45:021:45:10

of the whole house.

The bill be

moved to a committee of the whole

1:45:101:45:14

house as many who say they are

content? Those who not content.

1:45:141:45:22

Second Reading of the immigration

control of human rights abuses

1:45:221:45:25

bill...

I beg to move that this bill

now be read a second time. It is

1:45:251:45:33

impossible to embark on the Second

Reading of this bill without

1:45:331:45:37

explaining... The shock shocking

backdrop in this effort to create

1:45:371:45:42

legislation which will provide entry

into this country of people who are

1:45:421:45:46

gross abuses of human rights. A

Russian lawyer who acted... For

1:45:461:45:53

Hermitage capital management. Its

refusal to demand to the bow to the

1:45:531:46:01

demands of Putin, bought episode of

harassment and intimidation. In June

1:46:011:46:08

of October 2008, Sergio testified it

up before the public investigative

1:46:081:46:14

committee in Moscow against corrupt

officials who were involved in the

1:46:141:46:18

corporate rate on Hermitage 's

offices there. Taken place the

1:46:181:46:23

previous year. For having the

temerity to challenge the power of

1:46:231:46:29

the Russian state, Sergio was

arrested and detained on charges

1:46:291:46:33

trumped up. The conditions he was

held in pre-trial conditions were

1:46:331:46:40

horrendous. Freezing cells, open

sewage. Beds in short supply,

1:46:401:46:45

prisoners forced to sleep in shifts.

Sergio became very ill. He was

1:46:451:46:51

denied medical treatment. His family

and treaties were ignored. He was

1:46:511:47:00

permanently handcuffed and regularly

struck. He was found dead in his

1:47:001:47:04

cell with injuries which were

consistent with a final and hellish

1:47:041:47:07

beating. It begs belief, but four

years after his death, he was tried,

1:47:071:47:15

I suppose they would call a trial in

your absence and was convicted,

1:47:151:47:20

having been posthumously prosecuted

by the Russian state. The

1:47:201:47:24

authoritarian termism of Putin's

state reaches beyond the grave. Of

1:47:241:47:29

course, what they were really doing

was seeking to justify the cruelty

1:47:291:47:33

that had exacted by them against a

lawyer who dared to stand up for the

1:47:331:47:38

rule of law. Those who were

responsible for this catalogue of

1:47:381:47:44

abuse have since been honoured by

the brush and state and they have

1:47:441:47:48

usually enriched themselves through

fraud, using hand the Taj as a

1:47:481:47:52

cover. Sergio's death left a mother,

a wife and two children to grieve.

1:47:521:48:00

As well as a devoted friend and

client who is not going to take what

1:48:001:48:04

happened lying down. His friend was

the only financier banker who has

1:48:041:48:12

turned into a dedicated full on

full-time human rights activist. So

1:48:121:48:19

Sergio's death, he has worked

tirelessly to secure justice. He has

1:48:191:48:24

campaigned against the continuity

which was enjoyed by those officials

1:48:241:48:28

who committed these gross acts of

inhumanity. Knowing that Russia

1:48:281:48:32

under Putin will never prosecute

those who jailed, persecuted and

1:48:321:48:36

ultimately killed Sergio, he has

lobbied and campaigned and urged

1:48:361:48:42

other nations to deny thanks --...

The enjoyment of travel, the use of

1:48:421:48:51

ill gotten gains and the anonymity

which allows them to escape. So far,

1:48:511:48:58

he has persuaded the United States

and Canadian to legislate. It is

1:48:581:49:02

time we did this also. This is about

creating law. Human rights violators

1:49:021:49:12

like those who murdered Sergio,

exist in other nations to. In Sudan.

1:49:121:49:17

Where we have generals like Sala

gosh, identified by the UN Palin of

1:49:171:49:26

experts to someone who should be

subject to sanctions -- sanctioned.

1:49:261:49:32

Then there is another general Mark

Muhammed Hussain who has warrants

1:49:321:49:42

outstanding from the international

court for his role for crimes

1:49:421:49:47

against you manatee and war crimes.

In the Congo, where we have seen

1:49:471:49:54

greediest atrocities committed and

mass rape of women. In parts of the

1:49:541:50:00

middle east, criminals walk free and

come regularly to this country.

1:50:001:50:06

Generals in Myanmar also are coming

to mind. The United Nations

1:50:061:50:11

commission for human rights can

identify and provide evidence as TDs

1:50:111:50:15

violators of human rights. They

should not be able to come here.

1:50:151:50:19

Think their money into expensive

properties. Have their operations at

1:50:191:50:23

private hospitals. Send their

children to expensive private

1:50:231:50:26

schools and live in our midst in

impunity. Acids can now be frozen.

1:50:261:50:32

This bill is to deny them deserve.

The USA and Canadian acts contain

1:50:321:50:42

elements that provide a template to

be replicated the world over. Asset

1:50:421:50:46

freezes. Travel bans and the

explicit naming of the individuals

1:50:461:50:51

whose conduct has led the government

to sanction them. At present, the UK

1:50:511:50:56

only has the asset freezing aspect

of this type of law. This was

1:50:561:51:02

introduced when the criminal

finances act, which has an amending

1:51:021:51:05

attached to it in April 2017 this

year, it had passed through

1:51:051:51:12

Parliament in the preceding months.

This amendment allowed the

1:51:121:51:17

government to apply to a High Court

to have the assets of suspected

1:51:171:51:20

human rights violators frozen. This

left the UN lacking in travel

1:51:201:51:30

bans... Under immigration rules, the

Home Secretary does have a personal,

1:51:301:51:37

non-statutory power to issue travel

bans to individuals on the basis

1:51:371:51:42

that their exclusion to the UK is

conducive to the public good.

1:51:421:51:46

Section 35A of the immigration act

1971 says that the power to deport

1:51:461:51:53

anyone in the discretion of the Home

Secretary if this is good for the

1:51:531:51:56

public good. How often have those

powers being used against human

1:51:561:52:02

right abuses? The current powers

allow the Home Secretary to prevent

1:52:021:52:08

the names of those being banned from

being published. The existence of a

1:52:081:52:16

specific statutory provision. And

that is what is being sought here.

1:52:161:52:22

Aimed at sanctioning those involved

in human rights abuses have focused

1:52:221:52:26

their attention on that law and also

introduce greater transparency into

1:52:261:52:30

the exercise of powers to impose

these bands. The Foreign Affairs

1:52:301:52:35

Committee published a report in

2011. On the FCO's human rights work

1:52:351:52:41

which asserted the value of

publicising the names of those who

1:52:411:52:44

were denied visas to enter the

United Kingdom as a means of drawing

1:52:441:52:48

attention to the UK's determination

to uphold high standards of human

1:52:481:52:52

rights. Only a few days ago, in this

chamber, I participated in a debate

1:52:521:52:58

about human rights, subsequent to

Brexit. We were given guarantees

1:52:581:53:01

from the Minister, from the benches,

saying that human rights were a

1:53:011:53:08

central consideration of this

government. Here is a way in which

1:53:081:53:11

this can be expressed. Dominic bra,

member of Parliament argued in the

1:53:111:53:17

Commons debate in February of this

year, sorry, two years ago. In the

1:53:171:53:24

introduction of specific statutory

powers would give the public the

1:53:241:53:26

right to know which individuals were

being banned and which were not. And

1:53:261:53:31

would help travel bans act as an

effective deterrent to others. Would

1:53:311:53:37

soon see a chilling effect of the

movement of people if they thought

1:53:371:53:41

that they were going to be problems

as they sought entry into the

1:53:411:53:45

country. The immigration control

gross human rights abuses bill

1:53:451:53:50

introduces two missing elements of a

fully fledged minuscule. Explicit

1:53:501:53:57

powers... Transparent naming

requirements for those who are

1:53:571:54:04

banned. Following the successful

campaigns to pass these acts in the

1:54:041:54:11

US and Canada, the Russian

government has pursued William...

1:54:111:54:15

Including abuse of international

cooperation mechanisms, applying for

1:54:151:54:22

arrest warrants. And the extradition

to Russia. There have been five

1:54:221:54:27

separate applications for is

arrested by these means, all of

1:54:271:54:29

which have been rejected by

Interpol. But what it tells us, my

1:54:291:54:34

lords, is

1:54:341:54:45

They are doing their job. That is

why Russia are so determined to go

1:54:451:54:49

after him. One of the great

complaint about human rights law is

1:54:491:54:53

that it has insufficient to. This is

how it you give teeth to our

1:54:531:54:58

international commitments. I

strongly commend this bill to the

1:54:581:54:59

House.

Let me thank and applaud the

noble Baroness for introducing this

1:54:591:55:14

bill on a profoundly important

subject. As the House well knows she

1:55:141:55:20

brings a phenomenal experience as a

distinguished champion of human

1:55:201:55:25

rights. Her work, past and present,

includes six years of counsel, and I

1:55:251:55:35

have a privilege of being deputy

chairman for a time. I well written

1:55:351:55:39

call her inspiring figures on human

rights, and a fresh perspective and

1:55:391:55:43

energy for that. She has sat on a

number of committees in the most

1:55:431:55:54

distinguished fashion, and most

recently, leading the college is

1:55:541:56:01

splendidly as principal for the last

six years. Her long-term legacy will

1:56:011:56:06

be in human rights. The institute

will provide a distinguished form of

1:56:061:56:13

human rights scholarship, and we

look forward to the world-class

1:56:131:56:16

events, research and policy

development it will surely generate.

1:56:161:56:21

Respect for human rights is at the

heart of our Constitution and

1:56:211:56:24

culture. As the late Lord Bingham,

the first judge of the modern era,

1:56:241:56:31

to be master of roles, Lord chief

justice, said, in a world divided by

1:56:311:56:42

differences of nationality, race,

colour and religion and well, the

1:56:421:56:44

rule of law is the one great

unifying factor. Perhaps, the

1:56:441:56:49

greatest. The nearest that we are

likely to approach to a secular and

1:56:491:56:57

it on. In discussions on the

violations of human rights have been

1:56:571:57:06

ongoing here for many years. As the

noble lady and my friend said, since

1:57:061:57:10

the tragic deaths, the matter has

been given fresh intensity, after

1:57:101:57:19

encouraging the alleged £150 million

fraud, and considering he was

1:57:191:57:29

incarcerated in prison without

trial, and during his detention, it

1:57:291:57:32

was says that he was wilfully

subjected to torture, and received

1:57:321:57:38

delayed and inadequate treatment of

pancreatitis. After 358 days there,

1:57:381:57:42

he died in 2009. Surrogate, it has

been said that he worked as a... The

1:57:421:57:56

founder and chief executive of this

country, has been unrelenting in his

1:57:561:58:03

dedication for campaigning for

legislation for pursuing those

1:58:031:58:08

responsible for his death, and

penalising others similarly, as the

1:58:081:58:11

noble lady said, he is ready to

become a full-time human rights

1:58:111:58:16

campaigner. There are so many in

business facing adversity, move the

1:58:161:58:21

other way, look at the commercial

interests, it is never good for

1:58:211:58:23

business. To become a difficult

person or a relentless campaign. So

1:58:231:58:29

much easier to move on, create more

wealth, maybe dedicate some of that

1:58:291:58:37

to causes, but Bill is a example to

us all in his tenacity, courage and

1:58:371:58:44

persuasiveness and determination.

So, he was the driving force

1:58:441:58:51

concerning the accountability act

2012 in the United States, the

1:58:511:58:54

purpose of that legislation has been

said, to punish those responsible in

1:58:541:59:02

the death, by banning them from the

United States, and denying them

1:59:021:59:05

access to American banking systems.

Another prominent human rights

1:59:051:59:20

lawyer, Robertson said it was one of

the most important examples of human

1:59:201:59:23

rights.

1:59:231:59:33

It was a welcome development,

following much campaigning, when in

1:59:341:59:37

April, this year, the act passed

unanimously from the House of

1:59:371:59:47

Commons, to contain the provisions

that allow Government to... We

1:59:471:59:56

applaud the cross-party support that

led to the Government is taking that

1:59:561:59:58

vital step, to prevent those

responsible and complicit in these

1:59:582:00:03

appalling incidents. Human rights is

central to our shared values. We

2:00:032:00:11

should send a clear as possible

message, holding ourselves at the

2:00:112:00:16

highest standards. We recall the

minister's excellent speech. He

2:00:162:00:26

recognised his story as only one

example of the many atrocities of

2:00:262:00:30

human rights violations committed

globally every year. We very much

2:00:302:00:34

look forward to her response, now.

We hope that she would agree to go

2:00:342:00:39

this extra step. Additionally, we

should not overlook the ongoing

2:00:392:00:45

deprivations and persecution by some

national leaders in particular

2:00:452:00:48

countries. We have got to weep as

because of the of the fate of the

2:00:482:00:54

Muslims, and other minorities in

Myanmar to remain in Syria. The

2:00:542:01:00

noble lady catalogue the further

list of examples, and we cannot pass

2:01:002:01:05

by and take no notice. I just wish

that there were, in every year and

2:01:052:01:11

continent, that there... Before the

said benefit of their people, paving

2:01:112:01:25

the way to sustainable and equitable

prosperity. We should identify and

2:01:252:01:31

support the best, but we also have

an obligation to target and

2:01:312:01:36

penalised the worst. Let our law and

practice bring an end to the scandal

2:01:362:01:39

of wrongdoing and welcome to spend

their time and money here without

2:01:392:01:46

net. I support the bill. I too, --

I

too, strongly support this bill. I

2:01:462:02:00

welcome the Lady's commitment Ann

Hough commitment -- commitment to

2:02:002:02:08

the cause. As she had explained,

essentially, to complete what must

2:02:082:02:14

surely be accepted by all as a

compellingly necessary legislative

2:02:142:02:20

response to the particular form of

gross abuse of human rights, to

2:02:202:02:26

which it is directed. Part of that

response, the monetary part, as has

2:02:262:02:31

been expend, in the criminal

finances act earlier this year,

2:02:312:02:36

which provides, by way of amendment

to the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002,

2:02:362:02:42

fully civil recovery of the proceeds

of Arnold for conduct, and that

2:02:422:02:48

unlawful conduct is now defined and

pursued to the 2017 act, to include,

2:02:482:02:54

under the title, Gross Human Rights

Abuse Of Violation, the appalling

2:02:542:03:02

ill-treatment of what can be called

whistle-blowers, and the like. Under

2:03:022:03:11

the 2002 acts, as now amended, the

financial gain from this form of

2:03:112:03:19

gross human rights abuses can be

frozen by establishing a quote good

2:03:192:03:24

arguable case unquote, and recovered

by legal action into cases then

2:03:242:03:31

established on the balance of

probabilities. Having supported that

2:03:312:03:36

provision, in my speech and second

reading on the 2017 act, when I

2:03:362:03:42

simply mentioned the name, I then

received by post a copy of the book.

2:03:422:03:51

Generally, never one -- one never

gets round to reading these, but I

2:03:512:03:59

was tempted to dip into it by the

endorsements on the cover, quote a

2:03:592:04:04

shocking, to life -- to left

thriller. Unquote. Having picked it

2:04:042:04:20

up, I could not put it down, and I

finished it with a deep sense of

2:04:202:04:27

outrage. It was described as the

best thrillers someone ever read

2:04:272:04:37

and. The criminal finances act,

earlier this year, dealt only with

2:04:372:04:48

the material proceeds of that sort

of appalling Ms conduct, and has

2:04:482:04:54

also been explained, by the United

States legislation, which Bill had

2:04:542:05:01

secured, somewhat previously has

prohibited or so, and rightly so,

2:05:012:05:07

the entry of certain individuals to

the United States, and it is

2:05:072:05:11

essential to achieve this, that the

bill today is directed, and I

2:05:112:05:19

applaud it. But, there are two Mac

questions, and I think it is just

2:05:192:05:23

worth reading. Clause one provides

for the banning entry... What

2:05:232:05:50

standard of proof is intended to

apply? What state of mind must the

2:05:502:06:00

Secretary of State or the

immigration officer PA before he can

2:06:002:06:02

act as this bill envisages? Bill for

what it is worth, and it might not

2:06:022:06:08

be

2:06:082:06:18

much, concerning the correct

approach to decide on the barring of

2:06:202:06:33

the darts we will... And in

considering what that involved, we

2:06:332:06:47

have concluded that clearly, a lower

standard is required, and would be

2:06:472:06:53

applicable to an actual war crimes

trial, but, there was a higher test

2:06:532:06:58

for exclusion, having, quote,

reasonable grounds for suspecting,

2:06:582:07:07

unquote. Considering, the word

considering, we approximate rather

2:07:072:07:15

to believing them to expecting, now

I know from the briefing on this

2:07:152:07:22

bill that the Home Office guidance

on the approach to immigration rule

2:07:222:07:26

320 bracket 19, the paragraph that

provides for an immigration officer

2:07:262:07:34

to refuse entry if he deems the

person's exclusion to be conclusive

2:07:342:07:38

to the public good. The Home Office

guidance to that, is that entry must

2:07:382:07:46

be refused, if the person is

suspected of crimes against

2:07:462:07:50

humanity. But, it may be perhaps one

thing to route views -- refuse entry

2:07:502:08:00

on the basis of Mears is bitten, as

that guidance suggests, in that

2:08:002:08:07

context. Perhaps, another thing, is

that this bill also envisages to

2:08:072:08:11

cancel or curtail existing leave. At

this stage, what I would say is that

2:08:112:08:19

by the thought may need to be given

to the word, known, which is perhaps

2:08:192:08:24

too exact in a test it may need

amendment at committees page. Over

2:08:242:08:35

the last few months, this house has

been devoting considerable time to

2:08:352:08:42

the sanctions and

anti-money-laundering bill, and

2:08:422:08:50

knowing of this impending bill, I

have to say, it has occurred to me

2:08:502:08:56

from time to time, that this

objective could possibly have been

2:08:562:09:02

encompassed, within the sanctions

provision, in this substantial bluey

2:09:022:09:07

more comprehensive public bill. The

sanctions bill has just, of course,

2:09:072:09:13

reached report stage, and I simply

ask, could and should this further

2:09:132:09:23

provision, shredded, I wonder, now

introduced into that act? At least,

2:09:232:09:31

the possibilities should be

considered, unless of course it has

2:09:312:09:33

already been, it for some reason

which I know it has been rejected. I

2:09:332:09:40

do suggest that thought could be

given to that. All that said, I

2:09:402:09:43

repeat my strong support for

introducing this further provision

2:09:432:09:50

into our law, and which this bill a

fair wind.

2:09:502:10:06

And commend her to bring it forward

and for presenting it with all the

2:10:062:10:11

persuasiveness and passion that has

made her one of the country's great

2:10:112:10:16

advocates. And of course, she is an

advocate for great causes and this

2:10:162:10:21

is one. It is perhaps particularly

ironic that this bill comes

2:10:212:10:27

immediately after the last second

Reading. In the last second Reading,

2:10:272:10:35

we were talking about children,

unfortunate children at the mercy of

2:10:352:10:40

events and trying to open the door

to enable them to come into this

2:10:402:10:44

country to be looked after and cared

for. Here, we are looking at the

2:10:442:10:50

horrible fact that those Dooley

there with their idols can easily

2:10:502:10:56

come into this country and bring

their ill gotten gains and families

2:10:562:11:01

with them with remarkably little

hindrance when they have engaged in

2:11:012:11:05

some of the most appalling and

inhuman practices in their own parts

2:11:052:11:08

of the world. I am as enthusiastic

about dealing with the malefactors

2:11:082:11:15

as I am speaking for those who need

are care and support. My lords, this

2:11:152:11:21

is described as a Magnitsky bill,

but of course, it's not because this

2:11:212:11:29

is the only case. I see the noble

lord in his place and remember that

2:11:292:11:35

in July 2013, he brought forward

another case. There are many such

2:11:352:11:44

cases. I look forward to what he has

to say about these things because

2:11:442:11:49

this is not an isolated case, it is

something that has been going on. It

2:11:492:11:55

is a whole attitude and approach on

Mr Putin's regime. One might say

2:11:552:12:02

there is a long history in that

country going back to the days of

2:12:022:12:06

the Soviet Union when he was also a

significant figure. But one of the

2:12:062:12:11

big differences was, in those days,

the officials, whatever they were

2:12:112:12:15

doing within the Soviet Union, they

tended to stay there. Now they steal

2:12:152:12:22

from their own country and people

and bring their ill gotten gains to

2:12:222:12:28

this country to inflate the House

prices in some places and give

2:12:282:12:32

themselves a good life and also as

of possibilities and we find

2:12:322:12:37

ourselves permitting this to happen

when we know it is wrong. We don't

2:12:372:12:41

have too, there are things we can do

about it. Often, when there are

2:12:412:12:46

things happening that we are very

unhappy about, and sadly there are

2:12:462:12:50

many of them in the world, we are

unable to do something to make a

2:12:502:12:54

difference. But it is clear that we

can make a difference in this case.

2:12:542:13:02

When the Magnitsky act was passed,

the response from Mr Putin and his

2:13:022:13:08

colleagues was strident. It was

clear it has had an impact. When we

2:13:082:13:13

spoke on December 2012 at a press

conference, it is clearly not just

2:13:132:13:17

from what he said but the way he

said it that this was really

2:13:172:13:22

striking home. They produced their

own anti-Magnitsky act and it was a

2:13:222:13:29

strangely ironic thing because what

they did was blocked the adoption of

2:13:292:13:34

Russian children by people from the

United States and America. There is

2:13:342:13:40

something so seedy, unpleasant and

vile about that kind of response

2:13:402:13:44

that it tells us something about the

spirit from which it is coming. My

2:13:442:13:48

lords, it is clear to me that this

is something we can do and we should

2:13:482:13:55

do and I am glad that we have the

opportunity presented to us to do

2:13:552:13:59

just that.

My lords, may I also

starred with congratulating the

2:13:592:14:09

noble lady in bringing forward the

spill. It is a pleasure to come and

2:14:092:14:14

support this measure. In her speech,

she gave a short description of the

2:14:142:14:19

circumstances that led to the death

of Sergei Magnitsky. I think we

2:14:192:14:24

should reflect a bit on the context

of there, because it is a reluctant

2:14:242:14:35

thing that people recognise the

reality that Russia is not a normal

2:14:352:14:38

state. It is pretty close to being a

mafia state. There are high levels

2:14:382:14:43

of corruption in all parts of the

state and the response of person to

2:14:432:14:49

the Magnitsky legislation and their

pursuit of Bill Browder indicates

2:14:492:14:56

that at the highest level of

Government, they are colluding with

2:14:562:15:00

the criminality that is there. I do

wish members of society here who

2:15:002:15:08

sometimes can be found on the

expense of yards of these gangsters

2:15:082:15:14

or think that Russia is a country

that we can do business with, I wish

2:15:142:15:20

they would think again and bear in

mind the character of people that

2:15:202:15:24

they are proposing to deal with.

This legislation is the second-half

2:15:242:15:32

of what you might call the Magnitsky

Amendment. The first half as already

2:15:322:15:37

been enacted. I think that is an

idea that we should look closely at,

2:15:372:15:46

but was just sad. A bigger question

on my mind is, is this legislation

2:15:462:15:53

going to be enforced? That is an

area where one has some concerns and

2:15:532:16:01

the concerns are illustrated, just

going through this particular case.

2:16:012:16:11

A question was tabled in the other

place, where it was asked, if any of

2:16:112:16:18

the 60 individuals named on the list

published by the commission on

2:16:182:16:22

Security and co-operation in Europe,

individuals involved in the tax

2:16:222:16:28

fraud and torture and death of

Sergei Magnitsky published in June,

2:16:282:16:32

if any of those have visited the UK

in the past year and if she will

2:16:322:16:38

disclose such visits. Unfortunately,

the Minister for education replied

2:16:382:16:44

that it was long-standing policy not

to disclose details of records which

2:16:442:16:49

may be held in relation to the...

The Home Office is already aware of

2:16:492:16:57

the individuals on the list and has

taken the necessary measures to

2:16:572:17:01

prevent them from being issued with

the visas for travel to the UK. He

2:17:012:17:10

is doing quite well by signalling

that but unfortunately, a fewer days

2:17:102:17:15

later, the letter was sent that,

although the special cases

2:17:152:17:20

directorate has taken to make sure

applications for travel to the UK

2:17:202:17:25

are flagged up for careful

consideration on a case-by-case

2:17:252:17:29

basis, no decision has been made to

refuse the reef outright. I think

2:17:292:17:33

that's disgraceful. I think to talk

about all applications to be dealt

2:17:332:17:39

with on the individual merits as an

in-line with our usual practice is

2:17:392:17:45

really chilling because these are

not usual cases and they shouldn't

2:17:452:17:50

be treated as part of the usual

practice. The point that was made

2:17:502:17:55

earlier is that these provisions

actually do work. They are hitting

2:17:552:18:02

the oligarchs and the criminal gang

spirit hurts in terms of the

2:18:022:18:05

freezing of assets and denial of

access to hear and I think we should

2:18:052:18:10

be doing this at a matter of policy

rather than waiting for individual

2:18:102:18:15

cases to come about. That is the

main point I wish to make on this,

2:18:152:18:21

not just to support this proposal

but to see that it is enforced as a

2:18:212:18:29

matter of general policy because it

gives us a very valuable tool.

2:18:292:18:33

Coming to London is an attractive

thing and refusing that is something

2:18:332:18:36

that is going to enable us to make a

difference. It is a demonstration of

2:18:362:18:45

our affective soft power and

something we should use and I hope

2:18:452:18:48

we will do. I hope very much in this

bill will become law speedily.

My

2:18:482:18:57

lords, I would like to thank the

noble lady who agreed some ten years

2:18:572:19:04

ago when I asked her to become my

mentors and has remained a hero for

2:19:042:19:10

me all of my working life. I was

astounded to hear and read that it

2:19:102:19:18

was possible for someone who has

committed acts of corruption, that

2:19:182:19:25

even in Iran were regarded as

unacceptable to come to this country

2:19:252:19:32

where a moment ago we were fighting

for the right of immigrants who have

2:19:322:19:39

committed no crimes to Compton to

this country. It seems to be a

2:19:392:19:44

contradiction is extraordinary. How

is it possible to think that there

2:19:442:19:50

are laws that allow criminals to

come to this country, to bring their

2:19:502:19:58

money here and to London that? All

my life I thought that by coming to

2:19:582:20:05

Britain I would have left behind

corruptions of that kind and gross

2:20:052:20:15

financial indecency. I came to this

country because I thought that the

2:20:152:20:19

laws were straight, because we knew

what was happening, because we could

2:20:192:20:23

trust the banks and we would now

that this country would protect

2:20:232:20:30

those who are needy but would

certainly not offer a haven for

2:20:302:20:35

those who are going to abuse their

positions. It seems to me

2:20:352:20:44

unacceptable and I beg that we

change this attitude, because it is

2:20:442:20:48

dishonourable for me to think that

it's acceptable in this country. To

2:20:482:20:58

allow the kind of corruption that

has been rife in many countries,

2:20:582:21:05

that we have considered undesirable.

Please, my words.

My lords, I start

2:21:052:21:15

by welcoming and congratulating the

noble Baroness on bringing this bill

2:21:152:21:21

to the floor of the House. She has

many admirers across all sides of

2:21:212:21:26

this House and I fully endorse the

words earlier one from my noble

2:21:262:21:32

friend, all very eloquently and so

simply reminding us all why we all

2:21:322:21:36

admire her so much. I also speak in

support of this bill but as I speak,

2:21:362:21:44

lower down the order, it's not often

that I can say this but I possibly

2:21:442:21:48

fully endorse all comments made by

old noble Lords on all sides of the

2:21:482:21:52

House. And by doing that, it means I

don't have to speak for as long as I

2:21:522:21:59

have. I welcome and congratulate the

Government on adopting the clause to

2:21:592:22:05

the criminal finances act which was

brought in the first part of the

2:22:052:22:09

Magnitsky act. But this doesn't go

far enough. And it's right, as my

2:22:092:22:17

honourable friend said, we need to

make the UK a hostile environment

2:22:172:22:22

for those seeking to move, hide and

use the process of crime and

2:22:222:22:28

corruption in an increasingly

competitive international

2:22:282:22:32

marketplace, the UK simply cannot

afford to be seen as a haven for

2:22:322:22:36

dirty money. But we need to go

further than that. We must not be a

2:22:362:22:43

haven for human rights violations.

The law this bill would create has

2:22:432:22:48

widespread support in this House.

The polling that has been done shows

2:22:482:22:53

it has popular support in the United

Kingdom and support across the

2:22:532:22:57

political divide and is in tune with

what has happened in the United

2:22:572:23:01

States, Canada and other European

countries. In the House of Commons

2:23:012:23:05

over five years ago, a motion was

unanimously passed calling for Visa

2:23:052:23:10

and economic restrictions on Russian

officials on the crimes covered by

2:23:102:23:17

Magnitsky and since his death. The

foreign affairs select committee

2:23:172:23:23

should the list of banned human

rights violations with reference to

2:23:232:23:26

the Magnitsky case. My lords, the

Baroness has also referred to the

2:23:262:23:32

Home Secretary overarching power to

remove those whose presence in the

2:23:322:23:37

UK would not be conducive to public

good. And then you may ask, what is

2:23:372:23:43

the need for the law? But those

plans are really published, often

2:23:432:23:51

when asked neither confirmed nor

denied. There is no meaning or

2:23:512:23:55

shaming, no knowing who is here and

who has been allowed in here and now

2:23:552:24:02

light is shed on those who operated

in dark ways. When dealing with the

2:24:022:24:07

financial provisions we now have, it

was said that this message would

2:24:072:24:10

send a clear statement is that the

UK would not stand by and allow

2:24:102:24:14

those who have committed a gross

abuse around the world to launder

2:24:142:24:19

the money here. I would argue that

we need to send a similarly strong

2:24:192:24:25

signal in relation to the presence

of these individuals in the UK. We

2:24:252:24:29

said that we don't want your money

here, we need to say we don't want

2:24:292:24:34

you here either. But this bill must

not limit itself to the specific and

2:24:342:24:39

appalling circumstances as the House

has heard about the death of Sergei

2:24:392:24:44

Magnitsky even if it is motivated by

that, this bill must be universally

2:24:442:24:48

applied.

2:24:482:25:00

An act was passed in 2012 to deal

with the particular case. It

2:25:002:25:05

authorised the President at a time

when we had a president in the US,

2:25:052:25:12

when human rights mattered somewhat.

2:25:122:25:23

A similar broad act should be

adopted by us. Every day, we see the

2:25:262:25:34

most he knows human rights abuses

committed around the world, by the

2:25:342:25:37

sofa called -- so-called respectable

and powerful politicians. Burma has

2:25:372:25:47

been a horrific case in recent

months. Why must we always in the

2:25:472:26:00

long-term seek to bring these

perpetrators to justice, either in

2:26:002:26:06

their home countries, or in the

former international... In the

2:26:062:26:11

future, we must send out the signal

that it cannot be business as usual.

2:26:112:26:16

Our commitment to human rights must

be clearly visible when people seek

2:26:162:26:20

to enter the United Kingdom. This

bill, extending... Then Britain will

2:26:202:26:35

not be a place where you can do

business, if your total income to

2:26:352:26:38

study here, you're not be at your

graduations, if you have blood on

2:26:382:26:42

your hands, you will not be doing

your Christmas shopping at Harrods.

2:26:422:26:47

My Lords, only as here today, this

has has been discussing refugees and

2:26:472:26:51

family reunion. We have, quite

rightly, been a haven for those that

2:26:512:26:57

flee from human rights violations

and abuse. My Lords, we must never

2:26:572:27:02

become a haven for those that commit

such abuse.

My Lords, can I join

2:27:022:27:10

every other Speaker in the House in

congratulating the noble lady

2:27:102:27:14

Baroness for moving this for

bringing this bill to the floor this

2:27:142:27:25

has, and I will join her every step

in the way in ensuring that we get

2:27:252:27:29

every support we can to make this

pass. I need to declare, and a

2:27:292:27:35

category two for the registries and

members interests, my role as a

2:27:352:27:41

enumerator chat of the five rights

campaign, which is the new human

2:27:412:27:47

rights campaign. The bill is very

timely,...

2:27:472:28:05

This went a step further than the

Magnitsky act. We should be proud

2:28:092:28:25

that we are trying to move anything

direction today. This bill will

2:28:252:28:32

bring clarity and give teeth to the

travel ban aspect which is currently

2:28:322:28:36

missing. My Lords, I too have the

privilege, and take inspiration from

2:28:362:28:47

his courageous leadership, which is

so frequently absent from commercial

2:28:472:28:49

light. I worked for the Commonwealth

Secretariat, particularly

2:28:492:28:58

responsible for its good governance

human rights and democracy aspects.

2:28:582:29:04

That was in the late 1990ss into the

early 2000s. Robert Mugabe was

2:29:042:29:16

committing hedonists human rights

violations. -- keenness. In the we

2:29:162:29:28

had verification, yet, we sat there,

in utter and complete frustration,

2:29:282:29:37

as international tools, and

international law, as well as United

2:29:372:29:39

Kingdom law did not provide us with

any ability to stop Robert Mugabe,

2:29:392:29:45

his henchmen, and his wife coming to

the UK, for medical treatment, or

2:29:452:29:50

more likely, to spend their ill

gotten gains in our high-end stores

2:29:502:29:56

in this capital city. In other

country -- another country that is a

2:29:562:30:01

useful example, is in Pakistan,

where a person who is thought to

2:30:012:30:07

have committed a huge number of

human rights violations, while

2:30:072:30:11

living in self-imposed XL in London,

these were human rights violations

2:30:112:30:16

that he sanctioned from London, and

he was known as a person of

2:30:162:30:23

interest, to UK law enforcement.

There were a minimum of 31 charges

2:30:232:30:29

against him. -- within Pakistan in

self, on murder, money-laundering,

2:30:292:30:39

and multiple other abuses. Yet, he

was able to preside over this, and

2:30:392:30:44

interfere in Pakistani politics with

immunity. He was running something

2:30:442:30:52

again to spectre as they bond

movement from -- a Bond movie. My

2:30:522:31:14

Lords, if this bill had been in

place, that did not have happened.

2:31:142:31:19

It's tarnished the reputation of the

United Kingdom. Now, Clause 1.2 of

2:31:192:31:25

the bill, which refers to section of

the Proceeds of Crime Act, is

2:31:252:31:34

medically important, as it defines

unlawful conduct more broadly. The

2:31:342:31:37

UK has long had a reputation for

allowing financial crime, as well as

2:31:372:31:46

welcoming people who have ill gotten

gains, but this does not just

2:31:462:31:51

includes the developing world, but

it covers many other states as well.

2:31:512:31:57

As far as I know, London is one of

the few cities in the world which

2:31:572:32:01

had a black dockers see bus tour. I

understand the organisers are

2:32:012:32:09

planning to expand that to New York

shortly. I took this bus tour. It

2:32:092:32:21

was not a pretty sight. I suggest,

that other noble lord in this house

2:32:212:32:28

take this bus tour, it takes from

Whitehill place. It takes little

2:32:282:32:33

more than two hours, but it will

provide a real insight into who owns

2:32:332:32:41

London, our capital, and home to

Europe's largest financial services

2:32:412:32:46

sector. I know that corruption and

money-laundering is not in itself a

2:32:462:32:55

gross human rights violation, but,

the two things often go hand in

2:32:552:32:58

hand, with those that are grossly

corrupt often outsourcing the

2:32:582:33:03

intimidation, torture and supposed

murder, two others in order to

2:33:032:33:08

Ireland's public officials who

cannot be brought up by them. If one

2:33:082:33:14

superimposes human rights violations

into a map of corruption in Russia,

2:33:142:33:19

it is the same stakes that come up.

And, that applies to other regions

2:33:192:33:24

of the world, as well. And, there is

secrecy at Government level, here in

2:33:242:33:29

the UK, that allows and the public,

to never be clear on what basis the

2:33:292:33:34

wrongdoers are here in the UK. We

see that the Minister, of State for

2:33:342:33:40

security and immigration, James

Brokenshire, stated in response to a

2:33:402:33:45

written P Q... This is what the bill

will throw light on. We can't allow

2:33:452:34:00

that to continue. It suggests that

the Government prefers to continue

2:34:002:34:05

dealing with shady people on the

basis... Presumably on the basis

2:34:052:34:08

because they are posted people on

tarmac in power. My Lords, I know

2:34:082:34:16

that this is not a foreign affairs

debate, but I would only say that if

2:34:162:34:20

she had heard the condemnation of

Saudi Arabia on the 16th of November

2:34:202:34:24

in the statement of the Yemen, she

would know what I was talking about.

2:34:242:34:29

The Iraq of gross hypocrisy of the

-- the era of gross hypocrisy on the

2:34:292:34:38

part of governments is over.

2:34:382:34:49

Legislators request that additional

names be added, evidence can be

2:34:532:34:57

obtained from US and non-US sources.

This is important, as those on the

2:34:572:35:02

ground in this right violating

states are best informed of the

2:35:022:35:06

facts. We often find the countries

hide behind the fees that we will

2:35:062:35:12

leave the sanctions regime to be

implemented at EU level. Well, I am

2:35:122:35:17

highly the boredom of smart

sanctions, we also need to see our

2:35:172:35:21

own country rising to that

challenge. This bill would improve

2:35:212:35:25

and fast tracked the ability of UK

authorities themselves to take

2:35:252:35:29

action where international bodies

have not reached agreement, or are

2:35:292:35:33

too slow to respond. In conclusion,

my lord, I urge the Government to

2:35:332:35:37

support this bill. 2018 will be the

70th anniversary of the universal

2:35:372:35:43

declaration on human rights. It will

be the year when the UK hosts the

2:35:432:35:52

Commonwealth Heads of Government

Meeting. It will be the first time

2:35:522:35:54

that the UK will have that role this

entry. My Lords, in posts Brexit

2:35:542:36:01

Britain and Ireland, what a powerful

signal it would be, if the

2:36:012:36:04

Government follows Canada's example

and incorporated this bill into law

2:36:042:36:13

in April 2000 18.

My lord, as others

have, I congratulate the noble lady

2:36:132:36:20

Baroness Kennedy, bringing forward

this bill. She is a hero, and I am

2:36:202:36:23

proud to regard her as a friend. She

is a crusader. In his crusade, it is

2:36:232:36:29

clear that all sides of the House

supporter. This debate is not about

2:36:292:36:34

whether or not human rights abuse

take place. We know that they do. We

2:36:342:36:38

appalled them. And if we appalled

them. That is not enough. This is

2:36:382:36:50

about what we can do to punish

those. Earlier this week, I was

2:36:502:36:56

lucky enough to meet bail. A fellow

guest at dinner, I asked him if he

2:36:562:37:01

was afraid for his life. A

reasonable question, given what

2:37:012:37:08

happened to Alexander in the London

hotel. But, he is remarkably

2:37:082:37:14

sanguine about the possibility of

encountering a fatal dose of

2:37:142:37:18

polonium in his tea. He is far too

engaged in his absolute passion for

2:37:182:37:27

addressing what we have done to his

lawyer. A young man who was

2:37:272:37:32

determined to see the right thing

done. That is what we are debating,

2:37:322:37:38

today, really, whether we in this

country should join him in the fight

2:37:382:37:42

against what Russia did to Sergei

Magnitsky, and what other countries

2:37:422:37:48

do to her other people round the

world. His book, is a remarkable

2:37:482:38:01

read, and I am happy to offer mind

to anybody who is interested in

2:38:012:38:06

reading it. It is a terrifying

Chronicle, of what can go on when,

2:38:062:38:12

as he puts it, a regime becomes a

criminal enterprise, wielding all

2:38:122:38:17

the power of a sovereign state.

Russia is not the only country for

2:38:172:38:23

which this description is

appropriate. We need to stand up

2:38:232:38:26

against there's reaching is -- bad

regimes, and in particular, those

2:38:262:38:36

who exert power within them. As we

have heard today, some of those who

2:38:362:38:40

might be outside the regimes, where

their wilful abuse is being

2:38:402:38:44

perpetrated on their behalf. This

country has, as we have had,

2:38:442:38:51

introduced a ban, but this bill goes

further, and gives us power to

2:38:512:38:55

refuse entry and named the criminals

who have benefited from their

2:38:552:39:00

crimes. We know that the UK is a

magnet for people with money, and we

2:39:002:39:06

have heard, the sort of things that

they like to do here with their

2:39:062:39:09

cash. Those who perpetrate human

rights abuses all too often seem to

2:39:092:39:14

reap rich rewards from their crime,

and they seek to spend them on

2:39:142:39:18

luxuries in the west. We should do

our very best to stop them. They

2:39:182:39:27

like to make use of health services,

they like to make use of luxury

2:39:272:39:32

hotels, they like to get the best

education for their children. We

2:39:322:39:39

shouldn't be making it easy for them

to do that. Yesterday, a television

2:39:392:39:45

reporter who has decided that she

will stand against Putin any

2:39:452:39:48

election in March next year, said,

people understand that being an

2:39:482:39:55

opposition figure in Russia means

either you get killed, or jailed, or

2:39:552:40:00

something like that. She was

remarkably matter of fact about it.

2:40:002:40:06

That is how things are in Russia. We

need to demonstrate, that we will

2:40:062:40:12

not condone such behaviour. My Lord,

as a result of the author's efforts,

2:40:122:40:22

more than 40 Russians have been

named and shamed in the US. We could

2:40:222:40:27

do that too. If we support this

bill, we will be following rather

2:40:272:40:32

than leading, not the best position

to be, but nevertheless, we should

2:40:322:40:36

follow. Our Government, seems

remarkably sanguine about the fact

2:40:362:40:41

that Russia was actively involved in

trying to influence the result of

2:40:412:40:47

our referendum. I find that an

insult to democracy. But, more than

2:40:472:40:54

anything, I am opposed to the sort

of abuses of human rights that are

2:40:542:41:01

heaped upon people like Sergei

Magnitsky. We need to support this

2:41:012:41:04

bill, and fight back.

2:41:042:41:12

My lords, I also would like to

congratulate the noble Baroness. She

2:41:122:41:18

has an ability to make the issues

which she espouses very real to

2:41:182:41:30

those who listen to her. Like other

noble Lords, I have spotted the

2:41:302:41:36

paradox between spending a couple of

hours discussing, allowing refugees

2:41:362:41:44

family and children who are by

themselves seeking sanctuary in the

2:41:442:41:48

UK and without this Bill, they will

not be able to keep out some very

2:41:482:41:56

bad and wealthy people who buy

multi-million pound apartments, and

2:41:562:42:05

have all the benefits of our society

when their presence here is so

2:42:052:42:12

offensive. I also recall the

amendment to the criminal finances

2:42:122:42:18

Bill and unlike other noble Lords,

it has led me to read Bill Browder's

2:42:182:42:25

book. I feel we are going to be

Pro14 an awful lot of books, our way

2:42:252:42:32

by others who see that we do

sometimes read them, and my reaction

2:42:322:42:40

is often not to want to. But it is

such a powerful description of what

2:42:402:42:45

led to his campaign for what one

might hope would be the Magnitsky

2:42:452:42:54

Amendment number one of which this

Bill is at two. A drawback of being

2:42:542:43:00

such a good read is that it is

difficult to remember that it is

2:43:002:43:05

fact, not fiction, that is the

content, but the fiction is

2:43:052:43:10

terrifying. In my Bill, one refugees

earlier this morning, the debate

2:43:102:43:21

focused very much on how we wish our

country to be and how we wish it to

2:43:212:43:29

be perceived. Human rights should of

course by definition be enjoyed by

2:43:292:43:35

every human being but equally, every

human being, no matter how powerful

2:43:352:43:46

should observe them and apply them.

Transparency is a very important

2:43:462:43:50

factor in that and so I

enthusiastically support this Bill.

2:43:502:43:56

I have one tiny observation with

regard to enforcement, which was

2:43:562:44:06

raised by the noble lord, and that

is to ask whether immigration

2:44:062:44:10

officers should have the powers

without ministerial approval. I am

2:44:102:44:20

not always enthusiastic about giving

extra powers to the Home Secretary

2:44:202:44:24

and there is an issue around whether

this might amount to political

2:44:242:44:31

intervention in human rights issue,

but I believe in the US the

2:44:312:44:38

president is required to submit the

Magnitsky list to the appropriate

2:44:382:44:44

congressional committee. I simply

raise this as a process issue, not

2:44:442:44:53

in any way opposition. I wish this

Bill well, I think it will get a

2:44:532:45:00

better reception from the Government

than my beloved dude. Dilip -- my

2:45:002:45:07

Bill did. I want to congratulate my

honourable friend on this Bill, on

2:45:072:45:16

which she has been so writes the

present which has so far has the

2:45:162:45:20

support of all speakers in this

debate. This Bill enables the

2:45:202:45:26

refusal of entry or leave to remain

in the UK to non-UK are non-EEA

2:45:262:45:36

nationals who are known to be

perhaps been involved in gross human

2:45:362:45:41

rights abuses. One cause defines

conduct violation as the Proceeds of

2:45:412:45:55

Crime Act 2002, gross human rights

abuse of violation Ahmed. And as has

2:45:552:46:03

already been said, the section of

the Proceeds of Crime Act that

2:46:032:46:09

currently stands was inserted into

that Act as a result of the

2:46:092:46:12

amendment to the criminal finances

Bill 2017 during its passage through

2:46:122:46:19

the House of Commons. The amendment

was referred to as the Magnitsky

2:46:192:46:23

amendment after the Russian lawyer,

accountant and whistle-blower of

2:46:232:46:29

that name who died in prison in

Moscow in 2009. He had uncovered an

2:46:292:46:36

alleged $230 million theft by

Russian tax officials who siphoned

2:46:362:46:43

off money to see new Russian

Government officials. After going

2:46:432:46:46

public in 2008 with his claims, he

was arrested by those whose crimes

2:46:462:46:51

he had uncovered, imprisoned and

tortured prior to his death in

2:46:512:46:56

prison, which was shortly before the

end of the one-year term during

2:46:562:46:59

which he could legally be held

without trial. The amendment to the

2:46:592:47:03

criminal finances Bill in 2070 made

provision for asset freezing for

2:47:032:47:08

those involved in gross human rights

abuse but there is still no primary

2:47:082:47:15

legislation that deals with Visa

bands for perpetrators of human

2:47:152:47:18

rights violations. In 2012, the

United States Congress passed the

2:47:182:47:25

Magnitsky Act, which enabled the US

Government to ban visas and bar

2:47:252:47:32

people from using the US banking

system with individuals connected to

2:47:322:47:36

the case. Then 2016, the Government

approved the global Axa, which

2:47:362:47:45

expanded the scope from Russians

citizens to individuals who have

2:47:452:47:51

participated in or benefited from

corruption or human rights abuses in

2:47:512:47:53

any country. Similar provisions have

been adopted in the past two years

2:47:532:47:59

in the stolen, Canada and Lithuania

and are currently under development

2:47:592:48:05

in other countries, including France

and South Africa. There have been

2:48:052:48:09

questions here in Parliament asking

the Government what action it was

2:48:092:48:12

taken to reform immigration rules to

address the situation where those in

2:48:122:48:17

positions of power in Russia are

stealing money in that country and

2:48:172:48:23

are able to spend or hide it through

the purchase of expensive property

2:48:232:48:27

in London or through having their

children in the UK for their

2:48:272:48:30

education. The Government's responds

to date has been that the current

2:48:302:48:37

immigration rules provide adequate

scope to deny entry to perpetrators

2:48:372:48:43

of human rights abuses on the basis

that if there is evidence that their

2:48:432:48:47

presence would not be considered

conducive to the public good, and

2:48:472:48:50

individual can't be denied entry to

the UK as they would have bought

2:48:502:48:54

themselves within grounds for

general refusal. The grounds state

2:48:542:49:07

that entry should be refused to a

person who is the subject of a

2:49:072:49:10

deportation order your food has been

convicted of any offence to which

2:49:102:49:14

they have been converted to a period

of imprisonment. The rules also make

2:49:142:49:19

provision for refusing entry to a

person on the grounds that their

2:49:192:49:23

conduct, character and association

make their exclusion conducive to

2:49:232:49:26

the public good either on the

direction of the secretary of state

2:49:262:49:31

or by an immigration officer. The

Home Office guidance to immigration

2:49:312:49:38

officials is that if an individual

is suspected of crimes against

2:49:382:49:42

humanity, if it is beneficial to the

public could not to let a person

2:49:422:49:50

into the UK, you must consider

refusal of entry. It is mandatory

2:49:502:49:57

where a prisoner suspected of war

crimes or crimes against humanity.

2:49:572:50:01

Could the noble lady and ministers

say how many people have been

2:50:012:50:07

refused leave to enter and leave to

remain in this country with

2:50:072:50:12

anonymity on the grounds that they

has committed close human rights

2:50:122:50:17

abuses and violations under terms of

the current violation rules which

2:50:172:50:22

respect to war crimes or crimes

against United? The suspicion is

2:50:222:50:26

that this para, under immigration

rules, which the Government claims

2:50:262:50:36

is effective, is not being used to

any practice even though the 2016

2:50:362:50:40

report by the whole typical home

affairs committee referred to money

2:50:402:50:48

being laundered through UK banks

each year. That would indicate that

2:50:482:50:53

present immigration rules are not

fit for purpose or not as fit for

2:50:532:50:57

purpose as they might be on the

issue of denying entry to removing

2:50:572:51:02

perpetrators of gross human rights

abuses and naming such abusers. The

2:51:022:51:07

need for specific statutory

provision against abuses in the form

2:51:072:51:12

provided for in this Bill is both

overdue and clear-cut. We need to

2:51:122:51:16

show in very specific terms to be

clear primary statutory provision

2:51:162:51:22

that those who commit such abuses

and violations of human rights will

2:51:222:51:25

not enjoy the freedom to enter and

remain in this country, including

2:51:252:51:30

for the purposes of spending their

stolen money from criminal

2:51:302:51:35

activities with which such abuses

and violations, as in the Magnitsky

2:51:352:51:40

case, often associated.

2:51:402:51:51

May I thank the noble lady for

bringing forward of this debate.

2:51:542:52:01

Many noble Lords, including my noble

friend, have all mentioned that they

2:52:012:52:16

have read the book as have I and the

word compelling, and if it was

2:52:162:52:25

fiction, it would certainly be a

bestseller, do come to mind. I know

2:52:252:52:29

that the noble lady wasn't present

for much of the criminal finances

2:52:292:52:36

Bill but she may be interested to

read this section to which she

2:52:362:52:40

referred to as part one today

because I think there was some very

2:52:402:52:46

compelling debate at that juncture

and she may also, a very recent

2:52:462:52:56

announcement, but my right

honourable friend the Home Secretary

2:52:562:52:59

announced a very recently the

setting up of the National economic

2:52:592:53:05

crime Centre for the UK, which

brings together all the agencies to

2:53:052:53:13

certainly tackle serious fraud and

economic crime that takes place.

2:53:132:53:18

This Bill seeks to provide for the

refusal and curtailment of leave

2:53:182:53:23

where a person is known to be or

have been involved in gross human

2:53:232:53:28

rights abuses. The Government is

committed to improving human rights

2:53:282:53:33

across the world by holding states

accountable for their human rights

2:53:332:53:38

records and we do take a very strong

stance against individuals who are

2:53:382:53:43

known to have committed gross abuses

and violations. I absolutely commend

2:53:432:53:48

the noble Lady Baroness Kennedy's

wished to wash to protect our

2:53:482:53:56

borders from such individuals. She

and my noble friend 's' point have

2:53:562:54:09

thoughts about the naming of

individuals. There are compelling

2:54:092:54:15

reasons why individuals that should

be named and shamed, but the

2:54:152:54:17

Government has always stated that it

won't name individuals and that is

2:54:172:54:21

for this reason, that to do so would

alert those not named by their own

2:54:212:54:28

mission that they are of less

concern than those who are named,

2:54:282:54:32

and this may in fact not be the

case. So naming individuals may also

2:54:322:54:38

alert those named and not named as

to the level of information that the

2:54:382:54:42

Government holds on them. In terms

of the numbers that the noble lord

2:54:422:54:51

asked about, he will understand that

I can't give that number, but it is

2:54:512:54:57

always been the Government's

position that further legislation to

2:54:572:55:02

be warranted in this area, there

would need to be a real case that

2:55:022:55:07

existing powers were insufficient

and I hope that I can demonstrate

2:55:072:55:10

the provisions proposed in the Bill

remain unnecessary.

2:55:102:55:13

The government has a range of

measures that provide for robust

2:55:162:55:20

action to be taken against

individuals, notably involved in

2:55:202:55:23

human rights abuses. And obviously,

I can't comment on individual cases,

2:55:232:55:31

some of which are actually subject

to exclusion orders. I would like to

2:55:312:55:36

take noble Lords threw the policies

and procedures that we have in place

2:55:362:55:38

to prevent those involved in gross

abuses from coming to or securing an

2:55:382:55:44

immigration status in the UK.

The Home Secretary, as was pointed

2:55:442:55:54

out, has the power to exclude a

foreign national if she considers

2:55:542:55:58

that their presence in the UK would

not be conducive to the public good,

2:55:582:56:01

or if then exclusion is justified on

the grounds of public policy or

2:56:012:56:07

public security. A person may be

excluded for a range of reasons,

2:56:072:56:13

including national security,

criminality, involvement in war

2:56:132:56:16

crimes, and crimes against humanity,

corruption and unacceptable

2:56:162:56:19

behaviour. There's no on exclusion,

and a person who is excluded remain

2:56:192:56:28

so until the Home Secretary agrees

to lift that exclusion. This also

2:56:282:56:33

means that anyone excluded by the

Home Secretary, who applies the

2:56:332:56:36

entry clearance must be refused so

long as the exclusion remains in

2:56:362:56:41

force.

My Lords, such a power is serious,

2:56:412:56:46

and no decision is taken lightly,

all decisions have to be based on

2:56:462:56:50

sound evidence, and must be

fortunate, reasonable and

2:56:502:56:54

consistent. The noble Lord, Lord

Browne of Eaton under Heywood,

2:56:542:56:57

talked about the test threshold. My

lords, the noble Lord, of course, is

2:56:572:57:06

correct in his reference to the test

in the immigration rules, decisions

2:57:062:57:10

to exclude must only be taken on a

case of sound evidence. The UK

2:57:102:57:16

operates a watch list that is used

to flag individuals of concern, and

2:57:162:57:20

those known to be involved in human

rights abuses would be included on

2:57:202:57:24

that list. Noble lady, she talked

about excluding human rights

2:57:242:57:37

abusers, and it is already the case

that those involved in this sort of

2:57:372:57:40

shocking behaviour can be excluded,

contrary to the concerns of the

2:57:402:57:47

noble lady, but we can make an

express amendment to current

2:57:472:57:51

guidelines to make it absolutely

clear that the involvement in gross

2:57:512:57:56

human rights abuses will be grounds

for exclusion, that may be helpful.

2:57:562:58:04

The noble lady talked about officers

powers, as opposed to the democratic

2:58:042:58:09

process, but in conjunction, I think

she meant with the democratic

2:58:092:58:13

process. Border force officers

powers derived from the immigration

2:58:132:58:20

act of 1971, particularly those in

schedule two, to refuse an entry to

2:58:202:58:26

those that don't qualify for entry

to the UK. Yes, of course, the

2:58:262:58:34

democratic process, but I was also

concerned this would be unusual for

2:58:342:58:37

it not to be within a context of the

executors decision, that was what

2:58:372:58:50

concerned me.

Not something that had been unlikely

2:58:502:58:52

at Dover!

And I don't think I was making light

2:58:522:58:56

of the noble lady's point, I hope

she didn't think that. But my lords,

2:58:562:59:01

it is precisely because each

decision to make an exclusion order

2:59:012:59:04

is based on sound evidence and the

facts of each individual case that

2:59:042:59:09

it wouldn't be proportionate or

reasonable to exclude every national

2:59:092:59:13

of a particular country. The vast

majority of them will be law-abiding

2:59:132:59:18

citizens, and engaged in activity

which meets the threshold for

2:59:182:59:22

exclusion. I would also like to add

that the current sanctions regime

2:59:222:59:28

imposed by the UN Security Council

and the Council of the European

2:59:282:59:31

Union adds an additional layer of

protection, preventing non-EEA

2:59:312:59:36

nationals of concern from travelling

to the UK. International travel bans

2:59:362:59:42

apply to individuals associated with

regimes or groups whose behaviour it

2:59:422:59:46

is considered unacceptable by the

international community. Were an EEA

2:59:462:59:51

national or family member subject to

a UN or EU travel ban, we will

2:59:512:59:57

normally refuse admission to the UK

on the grounds of public policy or

2:59:573:00:00

public security. The immigration

rules provide for the refusal of

3:00:003:00:06

entry clearance, the refusal of

leave to enter, or to remain, and

3:00:063:00:11

the curtailment of leave to a

non-EEA national, where that person

3:00:113:00:16

has a criminal conviction, or on the

basis of their conduct, character or

3:00:163:00:21

associations, including where there

is an independent, reliable and

3:00:213:00:24

credible evidence of their

involvement in human rights abuses.

3:00:243:00:28

In the case of EEA nationals, we can

refuse admission to the UK when

3:00:283:00:35

public security is engaged. The

person must be shown to be a

3:00:353:00:38

genuine, present and sufficiently

serious threat to one of the

3:00:383:00:42

fundamental interests of our

society, except in exceptional

3:00:423:00:48

circumstances, a foreign national

subject to immigration control has

3:00:483:00:51

been convicted of a criminal offence

and sentenced to a period of

3:00:513:00:56

imprisonment faces a mandatory

refusal of these are all leave to

3:00:563:00:59

enter the UK for a specified period.

The length of the prison sentence

3:00:593:01:04

will determine the duration of the

ban from the UK. For those persons

3:01:043:01:09

given a prison sentence of four

years or more, an indefinite ban

3:01:093:01:13

will apply. Where a person has

received a sentence between 12

3:01:133:01:18

months and four years, there is a

ten year ban. And for those persons

3:01:183:01:22

with a sentence of less than 12

months, there is a five-year ban.

3:01:223:01:26

This applies to those convicted in

the UK or overseas. My lords, the

3:01:263:01:32

government also recognises the

importance of distinguishing between

3:01:323:01:35

those entitled to come to the UK and

stay here, and those who are not,

3:01:353:01:39

and we have a number of measures to

assist with this. For those that

3:01:393:01:43

need a Beazer to come to the UK, the

application process requires the

3:01:433:01:48

applicant to declare any criminality

or immigration offence, and to

3:01:483:01:51

provide their facial image and

fingerprints as biometrics. Entry

3:01:513:01:56

clearance officers are required to

check a range of databases,

3:01:563:02:00

including the biometric Home Office

and police databases, and this

3:02:003:02:03

allows us to check details of any UK

criminal record, and identify

3:02:033:02:08

important information about the

applicant's immigration history,

3:02:083:02:12

including any travel ban or

exclusion order. And at the border,

3:02:123:02:20

my lords, we undertake similar

checks against police, security and

3:02:203:02:22

immigration watch lists, as I have

already said, to identify people of

3:02:223:02:25

concern. Border force officers can

and do refuse entry if they believe

3:02:253:02:29

a foreign national poses a risk.

Finally, the immigration rules

3:02:293:02:34

include provision for leave to

remain to be curtailed, and for

3:02:343:02:38

indefinitely to remain to be revoked

if we become aware of if a person

3:02:383:02:43

with leave with refugee status has

been involved in gross human rights

3:02:433:02:48

abuses. Where a person cannot be

removed from the UK, because it

3:02:483:02:51

would breach their human rights, we

will consider granting short periods

3:02:513:02:56

of restricted leave. I am grateful

for the opportunity to set out the

3:02:563:03:00

wide range of government powers, to

deal with those committing gross

3:03:003:03:04

human rights abuses, I don't think

the measures proposed by the noble

3:03:043:03:09

lady, Lady Kennedy, are necessary to

protect our borders from undesirable

3:03:093:03:13

individuals. I think the individual

framework prevents those involved in

3:03:133:03:18

gross human rights abuses from

entering the UK, and indeed, goes

3:03:183:03:22

further by injury we can consider an

applicant's complete background and

3:03:223:03:26

criminal history when deciding

whether or not to grant entry, but I

3:03:263:03:32

thank her for bringing this debate

to us today.

3:03:323:03:41

I want to thank everyone that has

participated in this debate in

3:03:413:03:45

support of this Bill, and until our

last Speaker, it was United, this

3:03:453:03:52

grouping, of speakers, in saying

that there is a need for this Bill.

3:03:523:03:57

This is not a question of simply

protecting our borders from

3:03:573:04:02

unpleasant persons, this is about

sending messages to the world that

3:04:023:04:06

there is no impunity for those who

commit crimes of inhumanity. It is

3:04:063:04:10

about making a statement to the

world about our views with regard to

3:04:103:04:14

human rights, and those who violate

them. I regret greatly that the

3:04:143:04:19

government doesn't see the potency

of having such a Bill on the statute

3:04:193:04:23

books. Let me thank those who

supported the purpose of this Bill.

3:04:233:04:30

I feel very privileged to be in this

House. I feel particularly

3:04:303:04:34

privileged, because it is right, I

have friends all around this House,

3:04:343:04:38

this isn't all the benches, they sit

over them. I See You all smiling at

3:04:383:04:43

me just now, and I am lucky to have

them, my friendships with people

3:04:433:04:48

around this House are sometimes

peppered with political difference

3:04:483:04:51

on subjects that we still enjoy, and

we still have great friendship. I

3:04:513:04:58

want it known to the world that you

are not his beating because of that

3:04:583:05:02

friendship, but because one of the

things that we share is our concern

3:05:023:05:06

for the rule of law, our concern for

justice. That has brought us

3:05:063:05:12

together today, those of supporting

this Bill. It is to say that

3:05:123:05:16

matters, and this is really

important, that we, Britain, we come

3:05:163:05:21

in the United Kingdom, take a stance

on human rights abuses that happen

3:05:213:05:25

around the world, and when we know

they happen, we should refuse entry

3:05:253:05:29

to people who have been party to

such egregious crimes. And it is

3:05:293:05:36

shaming, shaming on the government,

that we are not prepared to make

3:05:363:05:40

steps. Of course, I anticipated it

would be said that there are already

3:05:403:05:44

powers available to the Home

Secretary, but we know they are not

3:05:443:05:48

being used. We had Lord Trimble

referred to the ways in which we

3:05:483:05:54

have failed. We are now introducing

legislation with regard to those

3:05:543:05:59

committing fraud and so on. We are

here to talk about people who are

3:05:593:06:04

slaughtering and are prepared to

kill to maintain power. People who

3:06:043:06:07

are prepared to rape and to sanction

it by others. That is what is so

3:06:073:06:12

disgraceful about the failure of

government to make it clear to the

3:06:123:06:15

world what the messages in having

legislation of this kind. I say to

3:06:153:06:22

Baroness Faulkner, I was interested

to hear about your tour, and perhaps

3:06:223:06:28

you are going to have to

organisation or to take people from

3:06:283:06:31

this House, around London, to point

out the way in which dark money has

3:06:313:06:38

and is infecting our City and

nation, because people are coming

3:06:383:06:44

here because they know they can come

and enjoy impunity for the crimes

3:06:443:06:48

they have committed. We should be

ashamed, and I say, poor show,

3:06:483:06:55

government, that you are not

prepared to take this step. And as

3:06:553:06:58

for the business of saying, and

publishing names, that the Alderman

3:06:583:07:02

for that is that those who are not

named would therefore be on alert.

3:07:023:07:08

Those who are not named immediately

think, am I going to be on the list

3:07:083:07:12

tomorrow? Am I going to be on the

list in a month's time? It is an

3:07:123:07:17

persuasive to say this is a reason

for not publishing. It is because we

3:07:173:07:21

are providing cover for some of the

people unfortunately we do business

3:07:213:07:24

with. For reasons that are still not

good enough, when there are people

3:07:243:07:31

that have disgraceful pasts that

they are covering up. I wanted to

3:07:313:07:36

referred to Lord Browne's

intervention, and I want to thank

3:07:363:07:38

him for it. He is a truly great

lawyer, and he raised the important

3:07:383:07:44

issue on the standard of proof. What

I referred to in my speech is the

3:07:443:07:50

way in which, for example, there is

an independent United Nations panel

3:07:503:07:55

that looks to those who have

committed crimes, and does apply

3:07:553:08:01

careful standards, not basing it on

suspicion. But we can also look to

3:08:013:08:13

the International criminal Court,

which again, in its investigations,

3:08:133:08:16

draws up lists. There are ways of

doing this, and I accept we should

3:08:163:08:21

look, if we go further with this

Bill, and I do, we can look at ways

3:08:213:08:25

in which we can perfect that in the

Bill with amendments when we come to

3:08:253:08:30

committee stage.

I want to make it very clear to

3:08:303:08:36

government, there is no suggestion

of this being used against all

3:08:363:08:40

citizens of a country because it

claims itself to be a democracy.

3:08:403:08:43

That is not the purpose of this

Bill, the Bill is to deal with those

3:08:433:08:47

who are believed ship in places,

those that give sanction to this

3:08:473:08:52

kind of egregious crime, and it is

in no way dealing with those people,

3:08:523:08:59

who themselves are victims, because

they happen to be living in

3:08:593:09:01

countries where the leadership

behaves in these terrible ways.

3:09:013:09:10

Mention was made of the possibility

that something could be done with

3:09:103:09:14

the sanctions Bill. I would urge

that one Government. It may be that

3:09:143:09:19

Government can find some part of

that Bill that could be expanded to

3:09:193:09:23

cover this, although I suspect they

will be an unwillingness to do it.

3:09:233:09:27

This Bill can be perfected, I have

no doubt, but the purpose today is

3:09:273:09:33

to say, there should be a Bill and

that this Bill should be making it

3:09:333:09:37

very clear to the world that we

won't support the Magnitsky Act

3:09:373:09:44

which are coming into being in the

United States and Canada, not

3:09:443:09:49

countries that will be casually

introducing such legislation but

3:09:493:09:52

because the world needs to take

steps to prevent their being

3:09:523:09:57

impunity. I just want to finally say

that what we have seen, and I want

3:09:573:10:05

to reiterate what Lord Trimble said,

is that this is working and it has

3:10:053:10:11

been a long time in coming. We have

talked often over the years about

3:10:113:10:16

the ways in which international law

can be expressions of goodwill but

3:10:163:10:20

that was often does not able to be

enforced. It is not possible to

3:10:203:10:27

implement our good intentions. This

is a way of implementing our

3:10:273:10:31

intentions and it is a way of saying

to the world, you cannot come here,

3:10:313:10:36

you will not be able to go to the

United States or Canada or Latvia or

3:10:363:10:41

other nations who have signed up for

this. And I think we want to be in

3:10:413:10:48

there at the beginning, surely. I

want to thank everyone for

3:10:483:10:52

supporting me in this Bill and I

would ask that this Bill be given a

3:10:523:10:56

second reading.

The contents have

it.

I beg to move that it will be

3:10:563:11:10

committed to the whole House. As

many as are of the opinion, say

3:11:103:11:15

"aye". To the contrary, "no".

The

content have it. Second reading of

3:11:153:11:23

the Government's local referendum

Bill, Lord Balfe.

My lords, I beg to

3:11:233:11:31

move that this Bill be now read a

second time. Can I begin with a

3:11:313:11:39

couple of personal declarations?

Firstly, I am as of today still a

3:11:393:11:45

member of the Venice commission for

a democratic elections, which is a

3:11:453:11:48

body of the council partly funded by

the Council of Europe. I also have a

3:11:483:11:55

long history, a loss of form in this

particular area. It was some 45

3:11:553:12:02

years ago that I became political

secretary of the Royal Arsenal

3:12:023:12:09

Co-op, where they used political

representation as a method in the

3:12:093:12:13

election. I saw the years that it

hadn't bringing many disparate

3:12:133:12:19

groups into the same body to form

the policies to carry the co-op for

3:12:193:12:25

road and a solid very clearly

because we used proportional

3:12:253:12:32

representation, the other big call

abuse first past the post, and they

3:12:323:12:38

spend nearly all of their time

fighting each other while we got

3:12:383:12:41

together and managed to work our way

forward. I should also declare an

3:12:413:12:48

interest that for many years until

circumstances intervened, I was a

3:12:483:12:53

member of the Labour campaign for

electoral reform and I would like to

3:12:533:12:57

thank them for slipping me a bit of

information which has helped with

3:12:573:13:02

today's debate. We still remain

friends, if not in the same party.

3:13:023:13:06

My contention is that if we look at

the last 15, 20 years, we have seen

3:13:063:13:12

a shift towards the uses of various

forms of proportional representation

3:13:123:13:18

in the election of bodies in the

United Kingdom which have

3:13:183:13:27

legislative duties. I base my

proposal, which is extremely modest,

3:13:273:13:32

all that asks is that the Secretary

of State brings forward a long and

3:13:323:13:37

it is indeed very similar, if not

modelled on the Welsh Government

3:13:373:13:41

proposal. Earlier this year, the

Welsh Government expressed its

3:13:413:13:46

belief, and I pulled, that

councillors should be able to decide

3:13:463:13:51

which voting system to use. And a

new consultation document, it said,

3:13:513:13:58

as such, the Welsh Government

proposes to make a legislation which

3:13:583:14:02

will allow councils in Wales to

decide which voting system best

3:14:023:14:07

reflects the need of their local

people and communities. And that is

3:14:073:14:11

all this will attempt to do. It

doesn't lay down the system, it

3:14:113:14:19

doesn't even say that local

authorities must change the system,

3:14:193:14:23

it's a progressive who and it's a

Bill with hurdles. But if I could

3:14:233:14:29

just look at the library brief, if

you look at the House of Lords in

3:14:293:14:40

January 2016, we see an argument

against PR, saying, it is often a

3:14:403:14:46

mishmash of policies hammered out

behind closed doors, which I argue

3:14:463:14:52

are not democratic. But Mike Speirs

of the stomach sees it as a policy

3:14:523:14:57

hammered as Britain and closed doors

and a mishmash because you tend to

3:14:573:15:02

find that whatever the political

grip is, it actually covers quite a

3:15:023:15:06

wide variety of opinions and

although on occasions, particularly

3:15:063:15:12

during the past coalition

Government, much was made of the

3:15:123:15:16

manifesto, I have to say that

throughout most of my political

3:15:163:15:19

life, the manifesto has not been the

guiding light and if it has, it was

3:15:193:15:26

used with discretion by people who

find bits of the manifesto that

3:15:263:15:31

happen to justify whatever they want

to do at any given time. I saw in

3:15:313:15:37

October 2017 there was a debate in

the House of Commons and the

3:15:373:15:44

Parliamentary Secretary of the

Cabinet Office said that first past

3:15:443:15:49

the post had an advantage because

it's less complicated, takes less

3:15:493:15:53

time and resources to administer and

is better understood by the

3:15:533:15:58

electorate. If it is better

understood, why is it that only 35%

3:15:583:16:01

of the people vote? Maybe what they

understand is that in most places,

3:16:013:16:08

their vote photos totally wasted.

I'm not sure that that level of

3:16:083:16:14

understanding is actually a

justification for keeping the system

3:16:143:16:17

in place. I would say that that

level of understanding is equally

3:16:173:16:22

argument for changing the system.

But my experience, both in the

3:16:223:16:28

Venice commission but also going

back to the 50 years I've been

3:16:283:16:33

around Government, is that parties

are very strongly addicted to the

3:16:333:16:36

system that helps them to win. The

number of times that I've been

3:16:363:16:43

involved in arguments in both of the

parties I've belonged to which have

3:16:433:16:50

actually boiled down to, how can we

get this through because it benefits

3:16:503:16:55

our party? Can we get this water

brought into the constituency

3:16:553:17:00

because it will probably vote one

way or the other way? Very seldom

3:17:003:17:05

are people saying, how can the

effect... Reflect the will of the

3:17:053:17:12

electorate, they generally say, how

can we ship it so that we will win?

3:17:123:17:16

One of the ways in which you see

this, frankly, is the way in which

3:17:163:17:19

local government itself is put

together. We have three member

3:17:193:17:28

awards. What on earth is the

intellectual justification for the

3:17:283:17:30

number three? Is it maybe a magic

Chinese number? I suggest, and all

3:17:303:17:39

the evidence I have talking to

people says, that the number three

3:17:393:17:43

is because that's big enough that

any local campaign will find it very

3:17:433:17:47

difficult to get elected. And that

is what happened in the area I live

3:17:473:17:54

in. I live in probably the most

expensive" in the city of Cambridge,

3:17:543:17:58

so clearly it is a safe Labour seat.

But it does contain some quite poor

3:17:583:18:08

areas and the paradox is that the

Conservatives often get their vote

3:18:083:18:11

is from these more modest areas of

the ward. But there is no reason, if

3:18:113:18:16

you look at the warrants in my own

city, they make no sense whatsoever.

3:18:163:18:21

They don't bring together

communities, they bring together

3:18:213:18:24

numbers. I don't think that they

make sense. But what this Bill aims

3:18:243:18:31

to do is allow local government to

organise itself. I will confess that

3:18:313:18:39

12-macro occasions in the past 20

years, I have actually voted for the

3:18:393:18:43

Green Party. I voted as a Labour

Party MEP for the Green Party

3:18:433:18:51

because I was faced with an election

in which the Labour Party put out

3:18:513:18:55

material attacking the education

policies which were of course the

3:18:553:19:01

responsibility of the Conservative

county council, not the local

3:19:013:19:04

council that the election was fired.

The liberal Party put out a leaflet

3:19:043:19:11

attacking the party for health

service cuts and the health service

3:19:113:19:15

was also nothing to do with kindred

City Council. The Conservatives

3:19:153:19:18

didn't put out any leaflets and when

I said, why haven't I had a leaflet

3:19:183:19:24

from you? They said, we have just

put up a paper candidate. The Green

3:19:243:19:29

candidates possess a leaflet that

was certainly the worst prepared but

3:19:293:19:34

that was a reflection on their

resources, not the intellectual

3:19:343:19:38

ability, which said what they would

do about cleaning the streets,

3:19:383:19:42

emptying the bins, looking after the

local services, shifting the bus

3:19:423:19:47

stop, it is actually talking about

the things that matter to us.

3:19:473:19:52

Unfortunately, the Green candidate

didn't win the actually does come in

3:19:523:19:56

second. But I also think that

turning the electoral system in this

3:19:563:20:05

way would help parties concentrate

on what matters to them. And what

3:20:053:20:11

matters locally, because it would

give a real incentive. And I have no

3:20:113:20:15

hesitation in saying that I would

not wish Cambridge City Council to

3:20:153:20:20

be run by the Green Party but I

certainly would like to see them

3:20:203:20:25

represented within the City Council

because I think that the ideas they

3:20:253:20:29

put forward in Cambridge reflect

their views, and is regularly shoot,

3:20:293:20:36

of around 15% of the population, and

they deserve a hearing in the

3:20:363:20:40

council that makes the decisions.

And that is up at heart of this

3:20:403:20:46

Bill. There are two safeguards

within it. Firstly, 10% of the

3:20:463:20:53

electors must request and

referendum, so it can't just be

3:20:533:20:56

sprung on people. There has to be a

demand and in order for there to be

3:20:563:21:01

a demand, they would have to be an

education campaign. If it was one or

3:21:013:21:06

2%, it would be easy, if it's 10%,

the parties would have to go out and

3:21:063:21:11

convince people that it was worth

having the referendum. Secondly, the

3:21:113:21:18

council would then have to ask for

the referendum, so they would be

3:21:183:21:24

eight double .2 job jump over. They

would clearly have to be some

3:21:243:21:34

consensus at local level and they

would have to be local demand

3:21:343:21:39

through the papers and through a

local campaign. This is not

3:21:393:21:42

something that's going to be sprung

on people nor, let me say, is it

3:21:423:21:49

something that says what form of PR

should be adopted. What it does is

3:21:493:21:54

it gives local government the

freedom to look at what sets the

3:21:543:22:00

local area and of course it could

decide that the local area is best

3:22:003:22:05

suited with no change at all. It

gives that freedom. My own personal

3:22:053:22:11

preference has always been for the

additional member system and we

3:22:113:22:14

often forget that the additional

member system was actually drawn up

3:22:143:22:20

by the British Labour Government in

the 1940s when they wrote what

3:22:203:22:26

became the Constitution of the

Federal Republic of Germany. A

3:22:263:22:31

gentleman whose name will be

familiar was one of the drafters of

3:22:313:22:40

that constitution. So we have formed

when we are dealing with other

3:22:403:22:45

people, what I'm suggesting in this

Bill is that we should maybe have a

3:22:453:22:49

bit of form and we are dealing with

ourselves. I'm sure we can have a

3:22:493:22:55

lot of debate around systems, that's

not the purpose of this very modest

3:22:553:22:59

Bill. The purpose is really to

advance us just as far as the Welsh

3:22:593:23:05

Government has already got, to start

a debate than to make it possible

3:23:053:23:10

for a change to be initiated at a

local level. So I thank noble lords

3:23:103:23:17

for listening to this and I look

forward to listening to the debate

3:23:173:23:22

and responding in due course.

3:23:223:23:24

I would like to congratulate and the

Lord to giving the House to debate

3:23:333:23:37

electoral reform, be it only one

aspect of it by introducing this

3:23:373:23:42

bill. Some noble lords will know

that I have previous on this. For

3:23:423:23:46

nearly a decade, I chair...

Campaigning for an electoral... We

3:23:463:23:54

were scuppered in the egg and by

Nick Clegg's decision to hold the

3:23:543:24:00

referendum on the date of 2011 which

made it absolutely certain, what he

3:24:003:24:07

purported to support would go down

to defeat. Incidentally, had the AV

3:24:073:24:13

system been in place in the 2017

election, he would almost certainly

3:24:133:24:17

have one at Sheffield Hallam, with

the aid of cycling Tory separate

3:24:173:24:23

references. Serve him right. The

referendum of 2011 temporarily took

3:24:233:24:30

electoral reform of the national

agenda all. I doubt it is gone

3:24:303:24:34

forever. We now have two dominant

great national parties, one divided

3:24:343:24:44

over Brexit, the other with a set of

policies far more left wing than in

3:24:443:24:50

any time of its recent history and

led by a man who is not seen as

3:24:503:24:56

prime ministerial material. First

past the post at the next election,

3:24:563:25:02

sadly, accepted we will be able to

vote devil or deep blue sea. Any

3:25:023:25:08

other choice is likely to be wasted.

The case for an electrical --

3:25:083:25:16

electoral reform in local government

is stronger than in national

3:25:163:25:21

government. Party governments

partisanship is gradually going out.

3:25:213:25:27

In many places now we have elected

mayors, and other places we have the

3:25:273:25:31

executive models of local government

where the role of individual

3:25:313:25:34

councillors is more to represent

their constituents anti-government.

3:25:343:25:37

Yet we retain first past the post

which amongst its many flaws means

3:25:373:25:43

councillors are chosen by parties,

not people. Not surprisingly,

3:25:433:25:52

turnout is low, city councils have

become and mandates. -- have a week

3:25:523:25:58

mandates. Some administrations have

increasingly not been elected by

3:25:583:26:05

first past the post. Mayors

aren't... In London for example. The

3:26:053:26:13

Scottish National Assembly members

aren't. In Northern Ireland and

3:26:133:26:19

Scotland, STV is used for local

elections and the Welsh assembly

3:26:193:26:22

wanted to be used for local

elections also. I do not think there

3:26:223:26:29

are many voters who would want a

return of first past the post, for

3:26:293:26:33

example for the London mayor.

Regrettably our proposal has sneaked

3:26:333:26:39

into the Tory manifesto. Now,...

Would lead to an extension of

3:26:393:26:50

reform... I do have some concerns.

Firstly, it sets the bar high. 10%

3:26:503:26:56

of local voters have to sign a

petition to trigger a referendum.

3:26:563:27:00

Even that is not enough. The council

has to agree and there is the

3:27:003:27:04

problem that the council is have a

vested interest. They want to retain

3:27:043:27:11

them being councillors. We would

love to see the country swept by a

3:27:113:27:14

mass movement for fair votes. But I

do not think I should hold my

3:27:143:27:19

breath. Secondly, more

fundamentally, I am not a supporter

3:27:193:27:26

of referendums. I believe in

representative democracy. Actually,

3:27:263:27:32

with a slight link to aristocracy

link to this House, but not

3:27:323:27:39

directly. The last two referendums

we have held on electoral reform

3:27:393:27:44

with a low turnout and a very low

information seen by the public. On

3:27:443:27:53

Brexit, the consequences of which we

are still grappling with. Those two

3:27:533:27:58

referendums have not warmed me to

the device. I doubt if local

3:27:583:28:03

referendums on electoral reform

would make many hearts beat faster

3:28:033:28:07

and I very much doubt if the

majority of electors would choose to

3:28:073:28:12

grapple with the issues involved.

Turnout would be... Meanwhile, if

3:28:123:28:20

voters to vote for reform, what

reform? Supplementary vote,

3:28:203:28:26

alternative, STV, top up lists? With

the top uplift the closed-door

3:28:263:28:31

ribbon? I will not even go into the

many varieties of these other

3:28:313:28:35

systems. You cannot resolve a

complex set of preferences by a

3:28:353:28:41

single vote. However, there is a

form of direct democracy which I am

3:28:413:28:48

much warmer towards and which does

have promise as a way forward in

3:28:483:28:52

this way. That way forward is

citizen... I am sure all members are

3:28:523:29:00

familiar with what a citizen 's

Jerry is. You get together a group

3:29:003:29:05

that is representative of the

population and for a day or a

3:29:053:29:08

weekend, they sit together, debate

the issue in front of them. And they

3:29:083:29:13

are exposed in dialogue with the key

arguments by expats. They deliberate

3:29:133:29:18

and then decide. Often as result of

the education process, people change

3:29:183:29:24

their minds. As you remember, one

citizen 's Jerry Budd started off

3:29:243:29:31

saying how dreadful the House of

Lords was, because it was appointed

3:29:313:29:34

and then they ended up thinking we

were about right, so that warmed my

3:29:343:29:38

heart to the device. The

Constitution unit at UCL recently

3:29:383:29:47

staged a citizens jury on Europe and

the results are released this week.

3:29:473:29:51

Fascinating. Initially, the citizens

wanted free trade and less

3:29:513:29:57

immigration, perhaps... But then the

experts said no, you can't have your

3:29:573:30:05

cake and eat it. What then? A clear

majority prioritised free-trade over

3:30:053:30:13

immigration control. But came as a

surprise to me, but they did. I

3:30:133:30:19

would like to see this bill amended,

so that either councils can decide

3:30:193:30:24

to hold such a citizen 's Jerry --

citizens' jury. Perhaps 10%, perhaps

3:30:243:30:32

my left could trigger the calling of

a citizens' jury. If the citizens'

3:30:323:30:37

jury opted for reform, the law would

bring it into being. My own firm

3:30:373:30:44

belief is that in most cases an

informed and engaged group of

3:30:443:30:50

citizens would want electoral

reform. If not, that is their

3:30:503:30:53

prerogative.

I would like to support

this bill and congratulate you on

3:30:533:31:04

bringing it. Perhaps it is a tiny

brick we might pull out of a

3:31:043:31:08

colossal wall of indifference and

very bad democracy. I am sympathetic

3:31:083:31:15

to the noble lord Lipsey was Mike

view that a referendum is often not

3:31:153:31:19

a way to settle a very complex

issue. I think we have understood

3:31:193:31:22

that with the whole Brexit

referendum. At the same time, I'm

3:31:223:31:28

not sympathetic to his view that

voters sometimes find things too

3:31:283:31:32

complex or can't be bothered and I

would have thought that the voting

3:31:323:31:35

in Alabama this week would have

shown us that when a court is just,

3:31:353:31:39

voters will come alive and actually

cast their vote and make a

3:31:393:31:42

difference. I am probably one of the

few people hearing your Lordships

3:31:423:31:48

house who has actually been elected

under PR, but also under first past

3:31:483:31:51

the post. I have to tell you, they

were equally difficult. It was

3:31:513:31:55

difficult to get elected as a London

assembly member and it was difficult

3:31:553:31:58

to get elected as a local

councillor. Honestly, a very

3:31:583:32:03

rewarding experience from both

counts. On proportional

3:32:033:32:08

representation, there is always a

lively debate. People feel very

3:32:083:32:11

strongly. Quite often one way or the

other. Most developments in Britain

3:32:113:32:15

but my constitution have come about

through compromise and negotiation.

3:32:153:32:21

Sometimes just an add-on. I do think

that Lord Bath's bill offers a

3:32:213:32:33

compromise on allowing proportional

representation in in a way that will

3:32:333:32:38

have the vote, will have the support

of voters. It doesn't force change

3:32:383:32:42

from above, and it actually allows

local people to decide how they let

3:32:423:32:47

their local representatives which I

think is excellent. And I would have

3:32:473:32:51

thought this bill fits quite well

with the government's declared

3:32:513:32:56

devolution agenda. There is no good

reason why local people should not

3:32:563:32:59

be able to choose their own local

election system. There is even less

3:32:593:33:03

reason why the government should

force fast past the post on a local

3:33:033:33:08

authority if there is public and

cross-party support to replace it. I

3:33:083:33:12

do think it would be pretty

hypocritical if the government were

3:33:123:33:17

to oppose a referendum on the future

of local democracy. Quite a lot is

3:33:173:33:21

made of the will of the people at

the moment. We are hearing it on

3:33:213:33:24

both sides of the chamber

constantly. Here and in the other

3:33:243:33:27

place. It seems eight not have made

of it when it suits people and then

3:33:273:33:35

it is completely negated when it

doesn't suit their arguments, which

3:33:353:33:38

is depressing. Even though I voted

for leave, because I want to amend

3:33:383:33:43

the bill, I am assumed to be a

traitor and an enemy of the people.

3:33:433:33:48

Which I do find very offensive. So

you cannot just care about the will

3:33:483:33:52

of the people when it once Brexit

and not care about it when it wants

3:33:523:33:56

a local election system to suit

itself. The will of the people is

3:33:563:34:00

either sacred or it is not. Of

course, as a Green Party member, I

3:34:003:34:07

care very deeply about proportional

representation. Because I am well

3:34:073:34:12

aware that our first past the post

in the past always predicated a

3:34:123:34:19

strong and stable government. But

that is clearly not the case any

3:34:193:34:22

more. It is clear that puppy post

has outlived its usefulness. And it

3:34:223:34:30

has become infuriating to watch this

particular government in league and

3:34:303:34:38

minority government in league with a

very niche party who actually got

3:34:383:34:42

half as many votes as the Green

Party in the last election but they

3:34:423:34:46

got ten times as many MPs, I really

would like an answer from the

3:34:463:34:50

Minister as to how that is fair or

democratic in any way at all. Half

3:34:503:34:54

the number of post and ten times the

number of MPs. The Green Party

3:34:543:34:59

policy is that we should have single

transferable vote -- vote for

3:34:593:35:04

elections and we can be done in a

way that maintains a constituency

3:35:043:35:08

link or a reward link, whichever is

more appropriate. Creating a much

3:35:083:35:13

more proportional voting system. But

there are a variety of views as to

3:35:133:35:19

which system to use and almost all

are better than the current system.

3:35:193:35:22

This bill would allow local

communities to decide for

3:35:223:35:26

themselves. It is possible for local

authorities to be too strong and

3:35:263:35:32

stable, where you have local

authorities that are totally unaided

3:35:323:35:36

by one party. It is easy for that

local authority to resist views that

3:35:363:35:41

are quite commonsensical, quite

reasonable in lots of ways. But

3:35:413:35:46

because it is in their they resist.

And I could name quite a lot of

3:35:463:35:50

councils. For example, Sheffield

City Council has a supermajority and

3:35:503:35:57

they have denied a bit by opposition

councillors. Simply because they

3:35:573:36:00

can. I do not think that is

democratic. And with directly

3:36:003:36:08

elected mayors, I think this has

been a very interesting experiment,

3:36:083:36:11

him in London, the mad does have

quite a lot of scrutiny, because it

3:36:113:36:16

has a London assembly that is

actually a very confident group of

3:36:163:36:18

elected all editions. And I think I

can be held an account. In other

3:36:183:36:24

places it is not as easy and I think

there is a lot of tweaking that can

3:36:243:36:28

go on with mayors of cities. The

balance of power between councillors

3:36:283:36:33

and there was considered to some

extent by the Court of Appeal in the

3:36:333:36:37

Doncaster library case in 2013, but

there are lots of questions left

3:36:373:36:41

unanswered. The general view is

councillors are weakened by where

3:36:413:36:46

there are directly elected mayors.

So the mayors have a lot of leeway

3:36:463:36:50

that perhaps they may not used to

best effect. We need to shake up our

3:36:503:36:54

political system to break up safe

seats, rotten boroughs and political

3:36:543:37:01

monopolies. It is not healthy for

democracy when we have those things.

3:37:013:37:05

Turning back to the bill, it is very

sensible. Moving forward on an

3:37:053:37:10

important issue. We are told people

are tired of politicians and experts

3:37:103:37:14

telling them what is best. We are

told the power is being wrestled

3:37:143:37:19

back from cosy elites, we are told

politicians must respect the will of

3:37:193:37:23

the people. If we can trust the

people on Brexit, then we can trust

3:37:233:37:26

them on virtually anything. So let's

try with this bill to start a

3:37:263:37:34

process of making our system more

democratic and today there were

3:37:343:37:38

three bills that I would have

liked... Three second readings I

3:37:383:37:43

would like to have them. But I don't

want to hold lots of time, so I am

3:37:433:37:48

only speaking one of them. If I had

some Green compatriots, you would

3:37:483:37:53

have had had to hear from you or the

time. I think that is a big enough

3:37:533:37:58

incentive to perhaps get some more

green appears here in the House of

3:37:583:38:01

Lords. Thank you. It's always a

pleasure to follow the baroness,

3:38:013:38:10

particularly appropriate today,

because indeed, she mentioned she

3:38:103:38:15

and I were first elected to the

London assembly in the year 2000.

3:38:153:38:19

And what I think whether fat

elections ever conducted under

3:38:193:38:24

proportional election system in

England. London assembly elections.

3:38:243:38:27

A very appropriate time. Before I

forget, I should declare my

3:38:273:38:33

interest, limited though it is, as a

vice president of the local

3:38:333:38:39

government Association. I do want to

thank the noble lord for introducing

3:38:393:38:42

this bill, it will come as no

surprise that the front bench we of

3:38:423:38:51

course welcome any debate on a

system of proportional

3:38:513:38:53

representation. I do also have to

agree with him that I quote,

3:38:533:39:04

"Parties are all too often addicted

to the system that enables them to

3:39:043:39:07

win.

3:39:073:39:12

That is undeniably true, but I want

to show from personal experience

3:39:123:39:16

that it is not always true. I was a

councillor in the London Borough of

3:39:163:39:22

Sutton for 40 years up until the

last elections in 2014. In Sutton

3:39:223:39:29

for the past 32 years, the London

Borough Council has been run by the

3:39:293:39:33

Liberal Democrats. Yet at only one

election, one council elections

3:39:333:39:43

since 1994 have the Liberal

Democrats won less than 80% of the

3:39:433:39:51

council seats, almost literally a

1-party state, and suburban south

3:39:513:39:55

London, particularly to my distress

with a majority of people voting

3:39:553:40:01

Leaving the EU referendum, it's not

natural love real Democrat

3:40:013:40:07

territory. I am still looking for

such territory, but wherever it is,

3:40:073:40:12

it is not in the London Borough of

Sutton. I think 32 years

3:40:123:40:16

continuously running the council,

most of the time with an absurdly

3:40:163:40:22

large majority, there's a huge falls

of confidence the way that the

3:40:223:40:27

Liberal Democrats have run that

council over that period. But at

3:40:273:40:32

only two elections in that time have

the Liberal Democrats gained more

3:40:323:40:36

than 50% of those, never mind 80% of

the votes in the borough. That

3:40:363:40:43

really is not fair to the minority

of residents that really would

3:40:433:40:48

prefer to be represented by

Conservative or Labour councillors

3:40:483:40:51

or even Green councillors. At the

last London borough elections in

3:40:513:40:58

2014, the Conservatives got 30% of

the vote in Sutton but only nine of

3:40:583:41:01

the 54 councillors, barely half what

their vote proportionately would

3:41:013:41:07

have entitled them to. Labour hold

15% yet they have not had a single

3:41:073:41:14

councillor in the London Borough of

Sutton since 2002. My lords, I'm not

3:41:143:41:22

too concerned's when the Labour

Government were experimenting with

3:41:223:41:26

various different pilot schemes for

increasing turnout and voter

3:41:263:41:29

interest in the elections and so on

and I was then leader of the

3:41:293:41:34

council, I did propose that Sutton

would be willing to count

3:41:343:41:38

Bournemouth conduct the next London

borough elections under an STV

3:41:383:41:46

system, provided that the London

Borough of Newham, 100% Labour, the

3:41:463:41:52

Royal Borough of Kensington and

Chelsea, then a Tory stronghold, if

3:41:523:41:59

they would do the same. My lords, I

was not too surprised, that neither

3:41:593:42:08

the then Labour Government nor the

two other councils were prepared to

3:42:083:42:12

do that. But I hope it gives a small

doubt to Lord Balfe's understandable

3:42:123:42:20

assertion of addiction to the system

that helps you win. My concern is

3:42:203:42:26

not so much that the first past the

post system is unfair to

3:42:263:42:31

Conservative and Labour parties in

Sutton, frankly they are more than

3:42:313:42:36

compensated all over the rest of the

country. It is that it is unfair to

3:42:363:42:42

citizens everywhere and that they

should always be our first concern

3:42:423:42:46

in judging any electoral system.

First past the post is not to use

3:42:463:42:50

the unfair to the citizen, samples

carry vastly more weight than others

3:42:503:42:56

and indeed far too many votes carry

no weight at all. So that is my

3:42:563:43:03

first principle in considering this

issue. The second principle is that

3:43:033:43:09

the system by which representatives

are chosen in our democracy really

3:43:093:43:13

cannot be left simply to the women

when Bournemouth home. That I think

3:43:133:43:26

is Lord Balfe's point and a weakness

in his Bill, that leaving aside the

3:43:263:43:32

shortcomings of referendums and the

difficulties of getting the required

3:43:323:43:37

majority of error, the final choice

is left to the local authority he

3:43:373:43:42

himself has said in most cases, but

not all, they have the greatest

3:43:423:43:47

vested interest in anyone in keeping

the system that has got them elected

3:43:473:43:50

in the first place. My lords, the

second Quigg hence, we would prefer

3:43:503:44:00

to see a reform that does not in any

way give deciding voice to those

3:44:003:44:07

already entrenched in local

authorities. We believe that a

3:44:073:44:10

reform of the significance is

urgent, effective and popular for

3:44:103:44:17

one group of citizens, it should not

be discretionary but universal. That

3:44:173:44:21

brings me to a third possible, the

basic building blocks of our

3:44:213:44:27

representative democracy in the

United Kingdom should be broadly the

3:44:273:44:31

same unless there are important

local circumstances which make that

3:44:313:44:35

undesirable in that particular

place. My lords, the huge success of

3:44:353:44:42

the introduction of the fate of

proportional representation for a

3:44:423:44:45

local authority elections in

Scotland is not just an irrefutable

3:44:453:44:49

argument for the extension of STV to

England and Wales but it's also a

3:44:493:44:55

strong case for uniformity. Scottish

electorates have a very much better

3:44:553:45:00

chance of seeing candidates they

vote for being collected, on average

3:45:003:45:06

75% of such candidates compared with

around 50% in the counties. And if

3:45:063:45:12

in Scotland the exercise further

preferences, then it rises to 90%.

3:45:123:45:17

That I believe over time, and it

will take possibly a generation, it

3:45:173:45:24

will mean that a very minimal delays

like many more people will vote for

3:45:243:45:31

positive reasons rather than

negative reasons against what they

3:45:313:45:33

don't want. Too often people go to

the polling stations if they go to

3:45:333:45:42

the group was told to stop something

happening rather than encourage

3:45:423:45:46

something happening but that is not

immune interest of healthy

3:45:463:45:50

democracy. Why should only some

citizens of the UK have a far more

3:45:503:45:54

democratic system of representation,

giving many more voters a direct

3:45:543:46:00

influence on the results of the

elections? Just as we believe that

3:46:003:46:05

the extension of the franchise in

Scotland to 16 and 17-year-olds has

3:46:053:46:10

been an unqualified success, so we

believe that the benefits of

3:46:103:46:14

electoral reform should be available

to all citizens of the UK. English

3:46:143:46:20

and Welsh voters deserve just as

much to enjoy the benefits of a more

3:46:203:46:25

representative democracy. The STV

form of PR in Scottish local

3:46:253:46:31

elections has been an excellent

pilot for the rest of the UK and has

3:46:313:46:36

been a huge success by any objective

judgment. Northern Ireland has

3:46:363:46:42

benefited from the advantages of STV

for over 40 years, Wales is

3:46:423:46:49

currently examining it, why should

England and English voters be left

3:46:493:46:54

behind? My lords, I hope this Bill

stimulus the Government into action

3:46:543:46:58

but I'm not too optimistic.

My

lords, I congratulate the noble lord

3:46:583:47:10

Lord Balfe on securing a second

reading for his Bill today. I draw

3:47:103:47:15

the House's attention in particular

as a councillor in the London

3:47:153:47:24

Borough of Lewisham and as vice

president of the local government

3:47:243:47:26

Association. The noble lord also

made reference to the Co-op in his

3:47:263:47:31

opening remarks and I have been a

member as long as I have been a

3:47:313:47:34

member of the Labour Party, which

was 39 years last month. Along with

3:47:343:47:40

my noble friend sitting in this

friend House and deep Bill focuses

3:47:403:47:53

on referendums in local systems and

is permissive and its aim. It passed

3:47:533:48:00

into law, as you've heard, it would

cut require the Government to

3:48:003:48:04

introduce its own Bill to bring into

effect the implied attentions of

3:48:043:48:09

this Bill. I'm not particularly

happy with that sort of procedure, I

3:48:093:48:14

think that's fairly cumbersome and

uses a parliamentary time

3:48:143:48:18

unnecessarily and for reasons we are

well aware of, parliamentary time is

3:48:183:48:22

not in plentiful supply at the

moment. If the Bill did in fact

3:48:223:48:26

become law, you might as well have

done what does requested of the

3:48:263:48:30

Government in the first place.

Procedurally, I think it would be

3:48:303:48:34

better to have a sharper Bill than

the one before us today. We have

3:48:343:48:39

heard that since 1997 the Government

have introduced a variety of voting

3:48:393:48:45

systems into elections in the United

Kingdom. We have a closed system for

3:48:453:48:52

elections of members to the European

Parliament, supplementary vote

3:48:523:48:58

system for Mears, additional member

system is to introduce an element of

3:48:583:49:04

proportionality for the election of

the London assembly, Scottish

3:49:043:49:10

Parliament, and the coalition

Parliament in the second Scottish

3:49:103:49:17

Government introduce proportional

representation in Scotland and we

3:49:173:49:21

have proportional representation in

Northern Ireland. The noble lord

3:49:213:49:26

made reference to his contribution

today. So there are in fact many

3:49:263:49:32

systems and you could argue that in

itself is a problem. I would be in

3:49:323:49:37

favour of cutting down the number of

systems that are used to elect

3:49:373:49:40

people to various offices in the

United Kingdom. When I cast my vote

3:49:403:49:45

for the Mir of London and the London

assembly, I get three ballot papers

3:49:453:49:51

and thought using three different

systems, supplementary vote for the

3:49:513:50:00

mayor, first past the post for the

constituency member and a closed

3:50:003:50:04

list for the London wide members who

are elected on a proportional basis.

3:50:043:50:11

I am aware that the Conservative

Party in there, manifesto made a

3:50:113:50:15

commitment to replace the

supplementary vote system used for

3:50:153:50:20

mayor and police and crime

commission is with the first past

3:50:203:50:23

the post system. I own party's

manifesto was silent on the issue of

3:50:233:50:29

voting systems but there was a

little and to establish a

3:50:293:50:33

concentration of convention which

was overlooked at the question of if

3:50:333:50:37

devolution in England outside London

and were power is held and used at

3:50:373:50:41

the present time and if there were

changes to structures, consideration

3:50:413:50:46

would have been given to the system

of election news different tiers of

3:50:463:50:51

Government. I thought the proposal

in the Bill were a fairly cumbersome

3:50:513:50:57

procedure and you want to do what is

implied in the Bill, I would be more

3:50:573:51:02

direct and see if we could bring

about that change with the Bill

3:51:023:51:05

today. There are few issues and some

have been made reference to already.

3:51:053:51:12

In areas that are not... I'm not

sure another electoral system is

3:51:123:51:19

helpful, I think we need to reduce

the number of systems. I would also

3:51:193:51:26

have preferred that you are clear on

this system you want to introduce.

3:51:263:51:30

And ever expanding patchwork of

different systems at different

3:51:303:51:36

levels in the same area does not

give me the clarity which I think is

3:51:363:51:39

important. In another section, I do

not think the position should be

3:51:393:51:46

coming to the Government or

Parliament, it should be presented

3:51:463:51:49

and checked by the local authority

ready position 60 jeans the

3:51:493:51:55

electoral system. That has happened

for the election of mayor and also

3:51:553:52:01

the system to abolish them. There is

a double lock that requires the

3:52:013:52:07

Government body to vote for the

referendum to see the 10% threshold.

3:52:073:52:13

Maybe that is right or maybe not,

but what it certainly is is an

3:52:133:52:18

effective blocking mechanism which

could result in very few referendums

3:52:183:52:22

taking place. This is a Bill which

needs a day or a two in committee.

3:52:223:52:32

To see how it can be improved before

making progress. As I always say

3:52:323:52:39

when I speak on a Friday, this could

be done very effectively in the

3:52:393:52:44

Moses room but the Government

insists that it is a committee of

3:52:443:52:51

the whole House rather than the

grand committee, effectively making

3:52:513:52:54

it very difficult for all but a few

of the members bills they support

3:52:543:53:00

making any meaningful progress. That

is a real shame. The bills that do

3:53:003:53:07

make progress often initiate any

other place, sponsored by backbench

3:53:073:53:14

Conservative MPs and may well be

from the Government's off the shelf

3:53:143:53:19

collection that the Government are

happy to see brought into law but

3:53:193:53:25

cannot find Government time for.

Having said all that, there is not

3:53:253:53:28

to say that the noble lord's Bill

doesn't highlight that in some parts

3:53:283:53:33

of the country, things have become

very polarised and that has resulted

3:53:333:53:37

in a situation where effective

opposition is not possible in many

3:53:373:53:41

town halls. I love the firm belief

that any level of Government having

3:53:413:53:48

effective opposition is important

and where it is not possible because

3:53:483:53:53

of resulting elections, that can be

a problem. Some local authorities

3:53:533:54:03

have sought to try and make some

provision by allowing sole

3:54:033:54:07

opposition councillors to table

motions or always agreeing to

3:54:073:54:14

formally second motions to enable

the debates to take place. I would

3:54:143:54:20

contract to Michael congratulate the

council that actually do that. I

3:54:203:54:25

would like to see councillors and

the electoral broking, which is a

3:54:253:54:29

benefit of the first past the post

system. As I do think there may be a

3:54:293:54:34

think tank that should go and look

at how we can address the issue of

3:54:343:54:39

effective opposition and effective

challenge in

3:54:393:54:41

Combined opposition of all parts on

the council was less than 10% of the

3:54:473:54:52

members. At the moment, this system

could have been triggered to bring

3:54:523:54:57

up the opposition to 10% of the

membership. This area-wide members,

3:54:573:55:02

to provide some additional

challenge. That would enable motions

3:55:023:55:06

to be voted upon. Alternative

budgets to be proposed. The actions

3:55:063:55:11

of the majority party to be

condemned. And all the other things

3:55:113:55:15

that happen in a local council

meeting or should do. It is just the

3:55:153:55:20

thought, a lot of policy but it may

be useful with other ideas. I will

3:55:203:55:26

think carefully about the bill and

it is likely I will table amendments

3:55:263:55:32

to bring about while seeing

improvements to what has been

3:55:323:55:37

proposed today. In conclusion, I

think it has been a very useful

3:55:373:55:41

debate and it will be better with

the contribution...

Can I begin by

3:55:413:55:53

congratulating Lord Balfe on his

success on the ballot and this

3:55:533:55:57

interesting debate about alternative

means of electing local councillors

3:55:573:56:01

who certainly sparked off a wide

variety of ideas. Which I will focus

3:56:013:56:05

on in a moment. We welcome the

debate is that he has initiated an

3:56:053:56:12

democratic representation and local

government on how he could best

3:56:123:56:16

choose our local leaders in local

authorities. It is a long time since

3:56:163:56:20

I have served on a local council. 46

years since I lost my seat on the

3:56:203:56:26

London Borough of Lambeth, which I

was elected in 1968 alongside

3:56:263:56:30

Councillor John Major. Much to her

surprise alongside... The paper

3:56:303:56:38

candidate in an unwinnable award in

Clapham, which my party won. I agree

3:56:383:56:44

with what has been said in this

debate about the importance of local

3:56:443:56:47

government. I took this opportunity

of paying tribute to councillors of

3:56:473:56:51

all parties who have managed to

reduce levels of ground in recent

3:56:513:56:57

years and maintained on the whole

good quality services. In some

3:56:573:57:00

cases, increasing public

satisfaction. The debate today has

3:57:003:57:04

been underpinned by a desire to

ensure popular engagement with this

3:57:043:57:12

important democratic process and to

protect the transparency and

3:57:123:57:16

integrity of our system at a local

level. Principles which all of those

3:57:163:57:20

who have spoken with support. This

is clear across all parties.

3:57:203:57:28

Successfully Labour and Conservative

and demonstrations have introduced

3:57:283:57:31

directly elected mayors to some

local authorities and for the

3:57:313:57:34

combined authorities, taking on the

most significant devolved powers.

3:57:343:57:37

Introduced manners and directly

elected commissioners. I take the

3:57:373:57:45

point made by number of speakers

that the current system can lead to

3:57:453:57:48

domination by one party with few

opposition members. But that

3:57:483:57:53

argument perhaps has less force than

when I was on the local authority.

3:57:533:57:57

Because we now have the introduction

of an overview of scrutiny

3:57:573:58:00

committees. Which can challenge the

executive is not possible with the

3:58:003:58:04

old committee structure I was

familiar with. On top of that, we're

3:58:043:58:09

audit committees, offices of the

council who have responsibilities

3:58:093:58:12

for lag legality... I also think the

nation of safe seats or wards has

3:58:123:58:19

less validity now than it used to

with the volatility of the

3:58:193:58:22

electorate. At Parliamentary level,

we have seen my party views... We

3:58:223:58:27

have seen Doctor Taylor when... I

think the nation of safe seats and

3:58:273:58:35

waters less valid. I think baroness

Jones mentioned Sheffield.

3:58:353:58:42

Sheffield, in my memory, was run by

three different parties. It is not

3:58:423:58:45

the case parts of the country that

are the monopoly of any one

3:58:453:58:51

particular party. But Lord Balfe

shared with us his background in the

3:58:513:58:59

co-operative movement, which shaped

his views on the electoral reform.

3:58:593:59:05

He mentioned Wales, one of the

consequences of devolution is the

3:59:053:59:08

different parts of the UK can go

their own way. It doesn't follow

3:59:083:59:13

that because Wales have gone in a

particular direction, England as to

3:59:133:59:16

follow. He also mentioned Lord

Bamber is. As I understand, there is

3:59:163:59:23

nothing in this bill that will

actually affect boundaries. That

3:59:233:59:28

particular issue he has worked hard

to be dealt with in a different way.

3:59:283:59:32

He mentioned his support for the

Greens. The Greens have shown they

3:59:323:59:37

can win wards under the existing

system, and local authorities. I

3:59:373:59:43

would not accept that existing

systems is a barrier to what were

3:59:433:59:49

initially small movements. My Mable

noble friend and also Lord...

3:59:493:59:57

Favoured the additional member

system. If we go down this

3:59:574:00:00

particular route. I think the

smaller the boundary, the more

4:00:004:00:04

difficult it is to have additional

member system. There is already the

4:00:044:00:07

allegation they are "Second-class

citizens" full stop that argument

4:00:074:00:14

has a less validity if you are

looking at a regional country. When

4:00:144:00:17

you go down to individual wards,

that have additional members were

4:00:174:00:21

sitting for such a small

geographical area. I think there

4:00:214:00:25

would be real difficulties in

persuading people of their

4:00:254:00:27

credulity. Lord Lipsey, speaking

from an unusual position, but on a

4:00:274:00:33

familiar theme, addressed some of

the deficiencies in the bill and

4:00:334:00:39

made it clear that he was

anti-referendums. He also made the

4:00:394:00:44

point that some of the difficult

decisions about the bill have been

4:00:444:00:48

subcontracted to the Secretary of

State. Who would have to introduce

4:00:484:00:52

the bill which would address some of

these problems. I was interested in

4:00:524:00:54

what is said about citizens' jury. I

think his... Would put a huge weight

4:00:544:01:03

on citizens juries on taking

important decisions. Baroness Jones

4:01:034:01:10

asked me to answer the question why

is it fair that the DUP should have

4:01:104:01:14

so many seats in the green so few?

The answer is the country had a

4:01:144:01:18

referendum. The country decided that

they wanted to stay with first past

4:01:184:01:25

the post and first past the post

produced the outcome that the noble

4:01:254:01:27

Baroness referred to. In her closing

remarks, she said we should trust

4:01:274:01:32

the people. If we trust the people,

we do have to honour the result of

4:01:324:01:36

that particular referendum. Launched

Hope argued generously for a system

4:01:364:01:44

that would give my party more

representation in the borough of

4:01:444:01:48

Sutton. Next May, we had to do that

on our own, without the benefit of

4:01:484:01:53

his proposed system. Like others, he

identified some deficiencies in the

4:01:534:01:58

bill. On the question of turnout, it

can be argued both ways. I think I'm

4:01:584:02:05

right in saying when we move from

first past the post for the European

4:02:054:02:10

Parliament to the regional list

system, turnout fell from what it

4:02:104:02:15

had been on first past the post. It

isn't always the case that changing

4:02:154:02:19

system up turnout. Lord Balfe was

somewhat dismissive of manifestos.

4:02:194:02:28

But I have to remind him that my

party's manifesto, ended his party's

4:02:284:02:34

manifesto, as well, commits us to

"Retain the first past the post

4:02:344:02:40

system of voting for Parliamentary

systems and extend these systems to

4:02:404:02:47

mayoral elections" in his words, you

said Lord Kennedy said he wanted to

4:02:474:02:50

reduce the number of system. That is

what my party election manifesto

4:02:504:02:55

does. It wants to move back to first

past the post, the system for the

4:02:554:03:00

elections that I have just referred

to. But reversing to the speech by

4:03:004:03:09

Lord Black, far from moving towards

the system advocated by his bill,

4:03:094:03:15

subject to local... There is

commitment in the manifesto to move

4:03:154:03:21

in the opposite direction, which

means it is difficult for us to

4:03:214:03:24

support this particular piece of

legislation. We want to ensure the

4:03:244:03:28

laws governing our local elections

can be understood and applied with

4:03:284:03:32

confidence. On the first past the

post, collectors prefer elect their

4:03:324:03:37

preferred candidates for their ward,

the system is well understood by the

4:03:374:03:41

electorate, did a straightforward

for administrators to deliver

4:03:414:03:44

election results accurately and

quickly. And opinion has been

4:03:444:03:49

tested. Arafat had this moment ago.

Appetite among the public to move

4:03:494:03:53

from the first past the post is not

evident. The referendum in 2011 on

4:03:534:03:59

changing the system of parliamentary

electric representation was 67.9%

4:03:594:04:07

against and 32.1% against four. On a

turnout of 42.2%. The bill before us

4:04:074:04:16

seems to apply PR rather than the

alternative vote and to councils

4:04:164:04:20

rather than Parliament. Nonetheless,

significant public support has

4:04:204:04:24

recently been expressed for first

past the post. The government's

4:04:244:04:30

position is that local government is

local, first past the post ensures a

4:04:304:04:35

clear link between the counsellor

and their ward. In a manner that

4:04:354:04:39

systems of PR may not. Local

government has a strong tradition of

4:04:394:04:43

having as its essential component of

the local council. Between these

4:04:434:04:48

councils represent a spectrum of

different local parties and a number

4:04:484:04:51

of councillors represent... In the

current system of representation

4:04:514:04:56

facilitate this. Electoral system is

a feat achieved PRI more often more

4:04:564:05:04

complex than first past the post.

System such as the single

4:05:044:05:07

transferable vote required balance

to be counted multiple times in

4:05:074:05:11

order to allocate seats. First past

the post entails a relatively simple

4:05:114:05:14

count, which usually only needs to

be conducted once. Minimising the

4:05:144:05:19

pressure on the administrative Pope

process and possibility of error.

4:05:194:05:22

Elections using first past the post

produce lower numbers of rejected

4:05:224:05:26

ballot papers compared to others.

Including PR systems. According to

4:05:264:05:32

the electro- commission, the

Scottish council elections, using

4:05:324:05:39

STV, 37,498 ballot papers being

rejected. As a proportion of total

4:05:394:05:44

ballots cast, nearly six times

higher than first past the post in

4:05:444:05:48

the general election. And high

numbers of incorrectly completed

4:05:484:05:51

ballot papers placed pressure on

administrators by requiring

4:05:514:05:56

administrators adjudication. We have

had a useful debate, I thank all

4:05:564:06:00

those who participated. I expressed

reservations about the provisions

4:06:004:06:06

within the bill before us today. As

indeed have other contributors to

4:06:064:06:11

our debate. We have clearly stated

our intention not to move away from

4:06:114:06:15

the tried and tested first past the

post system. We have no plays --

4:06:154:06:20

plans to enable change the rating

system for elections to English

4:06:204:06:24

local authorities that the bill

before us could provide fault. Nor

4:06:244:06:27

indeed does the government proposed

to impose the legislation suggested.

4:06:274:06:33

I'm sorry to have to close my speech

remarks which I know my friend will

4:06:334:06:38

find disappointing.

Can I thank the

noble lords who have intervened in

4:06:384:06:44

this debate. I have honestly missed

something regarding the noble lord

4:06:444:06:51

Lord Lipsey, he was in a different

position. I do not know if this is

4:06:514:06:55

indicative of something wider. But I

do know that track record years ago

4:06:554:07:01

arguing in the Labour...

Says there

seems to be about some mystery about

4:07:014:07:07

this, I will clarify I have moved to

be a non-affiliated peer is acting

4:07:074:07:12

to the deputy chairmanship of the

charity. Act, which is nonpartisan.

4:07:124:07:19

OK, right. That simplifies one

thing. I was scared to say, many

4:07:194:07:25

years ago, I remember arguing within

the Labour campaign for electoral

4:07:254:07:29

reform that this was a very good

idea, because it would enable us to

4:07:294:07:32

get rid of some people. And I see to

remember Jeremy Corbyn and I was

4:07:324:07:39

told don't be silly, he is never

going to get anywhere in our party.

4:07:394:07:45

Of course, as a serious point, one

of the advantages of proportional

4:07:454:07:50

representation is that it does

sharpen up parties and you see this

4:07:504:07:55

in European Parliament, where I was

25 years. That both the left and the

4:07:554:08:01

right, the effectively gone up off

into their own parties. Where have

4:08:014:08:04

influence that Sodom power. This has

its downside have you seen recently

4:08:044:08:11

in the German elections, where to

next and the parties come too far

4:08:114:08:16

into the middle, but it also has its

upside in that it does get rid of

4:08:164:08:22

some people. As you might say, you

wouldn't want to take home to team

4:08:224:08:26

for mother -- with mother. Thank you

to the Lord Lipsey. I take all the

4:08:264:08:34

points, you cannot draft a bill like

this that is perfect. That is why I

4:08:344:08:38

dropped it something very short,

giving the Secretary of State the

4:08:384:08:42

job of doing things. Because at the

back of my mind, I was very mindful

4:08:424:08:46

of the fact that since 1999, which

is some way away, only ten bills

4:08:464:08:53

introduced into this House have

become law anyway. None for the last

4:08:534:09:00

two years and having been drawn as

number 15 in the ballot, I wasn't

4:09:004:09:04

exactly thinking that I was storming

towards legislative glory with this

4:09:044:09:10

particular bill. So it was drafted

very simply in order to initiate a

4:09:104:09:14

debate.

4:09:144:09:19

in I was very pleased to the

comments of my good friend. Overall,

4:09:194:09:25

my view is that some form of

devotional live visitation with the

4:09:254:09:29

owner fans and the present system.

The reason for giving some toys in

4:09:294:09:33

the Bill was because everybody falls

out about what the best system would

4:09:334:09:37

be. But I'm afraid I find it very

difficult to believe that a series

4:09:374:09:44

of 1-party states is the best way to

run local democracies, it's as

4:09:444:09:49

simple as that. I accept that the

Greens may have won in Brighton but

4:09:494:09:54

they have got nowhere in my city of

Cambridge, despite regularly getting

4:09:544:10:00

well into double figures in the

vault. They always gets between 50%

4:10:004:10:04

and 20% of the vote and the deserve

some seats. -- 15% and 20%. The

4:10:044:10:16

council is at the moment divided

between a resurgent Labour Party

4:10:164:10:19

that is not going to win in

Cambridge, losing Cambridge, until

4:10:194:10:26

Labour wins in Government, and then

of course it will all start to swing

4:10:264:10:30

back again. The other party in

Cambridge is the Liberal party that

4:10:304:10:36

used to control the city but has

gradually slipped downwards. But

4:10:364:10:42

this is not a local democracy, this

is just a reflection on what happens

4:10:424:10:46

nationally. But I think the Baroness

for Commons. I'm glad you had 32

4:10:464:10:57

years in control of Saturn but I'm

not sure that's going to last that

4:10:574:11:01

much longer, either. But we will

see. On the noble lord Lord Kennedy,

4:11:014:11:12

he asked for a sharper Bill. I think

I have dealt with this, you can

4:11:124:11:18

never be right. A sharper Bill would

have missed a lots of things out.

4:11:184:11:23

The noble lord mentioned being clear

about the system, but we use

4:11:234:11:29

allsorts of systems. I've got in

building society elections on one

4:11:294:11:33

system, I vote for my club election

on a nervous system, I vote for the

4:11:334:11:39

Royal statistical Society executive

on another one, and regularly

4:11:394:11:44

ballots dropped through my door and

inviting me to vote by post for the

4:11:444:11:48

various bodies I'm in and they have

many different systems between them.

4:11:484:11:53

Funnily enough, I managed to

understand them. As to a loss of

4:11:534:11:57

other people that vote in them, so I

don't think a lack of understanding

4:11:574:12:01

of the problem. I listened with

interest about the minister has to

4:12:014:12:08

say and I appreciate that the

Government has a very different

4:12:084:12:12

position to me. Indeed, it has not

escaped my notice that there is not

4:12:124:12:18

a single Conservative speaker in

support of this Bill. I recognise it

4:12:184:12:25

as a minority sport, it was in the

Labour Party and is even more so in

4:12:254:12:30

the Conservative Party, but

nonetheless, it is an idea whose

4:12:304:12:34

hour is coming and as I see this

moving forward, I think that you

4:12:344:12:41

have to say, well, who has adopted

first past the Post recently? No

4:12:414:12:47

one. Who has moved to systems of

proportional representation? Quite a

4:12:474:12:51

lot of people, and when you look at

new systems, there is invariably a

4:12:514:12:56

demand for that. So I think thank

noble lords and ask the House to

4:12:564:13:04

give it a second leading and look

forward to it being the law of the

4:13:044:13:08

land, but probably not in my

lifetime.

As many as are of the

4:13:084:13:14

opinion, say "aye". To the contrary,

"no". The content have it.

My lords,

4:13:144:13:22

I moved that this Bill be moved to a

committee of the whole House.

. The

4:13:224:13:29

content have it.

My lords, I beg to

ask that the House now adjourn.

The

4:13:294:13:40

House is now adjourn.

4:13:404:13:46

Today, President Trump fulfilled one

of his key election pledges.

They

4:14:334:14:43

are calling at the Brexit election.

This is a much more dangerous world.

4:14:434:14:53

Making sense of the stories shaping

our world.

4:14:534:15:04

I beg you to ask the question set

down.

My lords, the budget has

4:15:294:15:37

provided a very significant impact

for the north-east of England,

4:15:374:15:43

transforming cities on the Tees

Valley and an investment fund of 600

4:15:434:15:47

million over 30 years as part of the

devilish deal for the north of time.

4:15:474:15:54

My lords, the funding for the

Tyneside Metro is welcome. The big

4:15:544:15:58

announcement in the budget was a

half baked and does the Minister

4:15:584:16:04

realise it has none of the

transport, health and social care

4:16:044:16:09

powers, and still less the social

funding and other counties like

4:16:094:16:15

Manchester, it has a boundary

cutting rates through the middle of

4:16:154:16:18

Tyneside and focuses on the election

that very few people want. What, if

4:16:184:16:26

anything, while the steel do for the

rural areas of Northumberland so

4:16:264:16:32

often outvoted on the Tyneside areas

on which the student focus?

The

4:16:324:16:39

rolling stock and some 40 years out

of date. It is 40 years old and not

4:16:394:16:43

as real viable as it should be on

the new stock will make it better.

4:16:434:16:51

As far as the dealers concerned, for

those not familiar with the stories

4:16:514:16:56

of four, seven local authorities in

the north-east approach the

4:16:564:16:59

Government under the umbrella of the

north-east combined authority for a

4:16:594:17:04

devolution deal and this was in

accordance with the Government's

4:17:044:17:08

wish to decentralise decision-making

and give local areas more powers and

4:17:084:17:11

resources. Halfway through the

discussions, four of those local

4:17:114:17:17

authorities with crew and those who

understand the social political

4:17:174:17:21

dynamics of the north-east and the

tribal tensions of the time we

4:17:214:17:25

understand why, but I don't. The

decision for the Government was

4:17:254:17:34

whether the three remaining

authorities, Northumberland,

4:17:344:17:38

Newcastle, and North Tyneside should

go ahead. They want to proceed, so

4:17:384:17:43

do the business community and so

does the local enterprise

4:17:434:17:45

partnership. For those reasons, the

Government is minded to proceed

4:17:454:17:50

under the ball now rest in the Court

of the local authorities to go

4:17:504:17:54

through the statutory consultation.

Well my noble friend agree?

4:17:544:18:02

interest as a member of one of the

tribes in question. Educational

4:18:054:18:10

attainment is the key contributor to

economic attainment. Many children

4:18:104:18:20

are living in poverty, more than the

national average. While the

4:18:204:18:25

Government now seek to improve the

life chances of these children by

4:18:254:18:30

replicating in the north-east of the

very successful London challenge

4:18:304:18:33

were transformed education in the

capital?

I have no objection at all

4:18:334:18:38

to rolling out from successful

experiments in London or anywhere

4:18:384:18:42

else to other parts of the country

that could benefit from them. So far

4:18:424:18:47

as the north-east is concerned,

there was quite a lot in the budget

4:18:474:18:51

to help the north-east on House,

healthy local health, transport.

4:18:514:18:59

Adult education would be devolved to

the new combined authority. On the

4:18:594:19:05

specific question, perhaps I could

take advice from the colleagues and

4:19:054:19:08

come back to him.

Well my noble

colleague agreed that there is money

4:19:084:19:14

in the Budget and the industrial

strategy to improve connectivity

4:19:144:19:20

general areas? Will he ensure these

measured our use across the whole of

4:19:204:19:25

the north of England to ensure that

the access to the broadband is

4:19:254:19:37

improved to enable these rural

businesses to compete?

I entirely

4:19:374:19:41

agree. She will know that the

industrial strategy, that was

4:19:414:19:45

launched at the same time as the

budget promised to make the UK a

4:19:454:19:50

more connected country with high

speed, fixed and mobile access

4:19:504:19:55

available in all areas, including

rural areas, and also aiming to make

4:19:554:19:59

decisions on infrastructure and more

geographically balanced, so that is

4:19:594:20:03

at the heart of the industrial

strategy. She will have an

4:20:034:20:06

opportunity to develop her arguments

after Christmas.

The support

4:20:064:20:13

mentioned by the noble lord, the

Minister,'s... The noble lord may

4:20:134:20:26

not have a handle on the conflicts

in the north-east. I have a slightly

4:20:264:20:32

better handle on the tribal

conflicts in Yorkshire. There is a

4:20:324:20:36

real worry now that the whole of the

east of the Pennines is losing out

4:20:364:20:42

in relation to resources that would

otherwise be available if elected

4:20:424:20:47

mayors in the city regions east of

the Pennines had actually been

4:20:474:20:52

carried through. If they were to

occur in the months ahead, with the

4:20:524:20:55

noble lord give an assurance that

the resources which are earmarked

4:20:554:20:59

for those authorities with the

letter players will be available and

4:20:594:21:05

backdated for and authorities that

move forward with unelected mayor in

4:21:054:21:11

the way he has described?

There is a

Sheffield regional city devolution

4:21:114:21:17

deal with unelected mirror. That is

in the process of being set up with

4:21:174:21:25

unelected Labour election scheduled

for May next year. If other parts of

4:21:254:21:28

Yorkshire want to approach the

Government and offer a similar

4:21:284:21:31

devolution deal, of course we would

listen. I think my colleagues in the

4:21:314:21:38

Treasury might pause before signing

up to backdated deals. What we don't

4:21:384:21:42

want to do is have an all Yorkshire

deal which would undermine the deal

4:21:424:21:48

going ahead with Sheffield city

region. Any work that the noble lord

4:21:484:21:52

can do to encourage more authorities

to come forward with devilish and

4:21:524:21:56

deals, the Government would listen

to them very warmly.

The Minister is

4:21:564:22:01

quite right to welcome the support

that has been given to the

4:22:014:22:07

north-east and in particular the

support for Teesside, where the

4:22:074:22:12

steelworks are being closed and work

in a Conservative mayor has been

4:22:124:22:17

working closely with the Labour

authorities to ensure the success of

4:22:174:22:21

that approach to the Government. The

position on Tyneside is quite

4:22:214:22:26

disastrous. I was chairman of the

Port of Tyne authority for a number

4:22:264:22:29

of years and within international

passenger terminal on one side of

4:22:294:22:34

the river and dogs on the other side

of the river, working with different

4:22:344:22:38

authorities working across the river

will be most difficult. While he

4:22:384:22:43

seeks to do whatever he possibly can

to bring the river authorities on

4:22:434:22:46

the south side of the river to join

their colleagues on the north of the

4:22:464:22:50

river in order to set up a single

authority for the whole area?

He may

4:22:504:22:56

have more influence than I- seeking

the reconciliation that he promotes

4:22:564:23:01

in view of his knowledge and

commitment to the area. On Tees

4:23:014:23:05

Valley, Chancellor announced £123

million of new funding to ensure the

4:23:054:23:12

ongoing safe and secure management

of the former steelworks and I

4:23:124:23:16

welcome the close working between

the mayor and the local authority.

4:23:164:23:23

On the north-east, on Tyneside,

whether it is too late for the

4:23:234:23:27

authorities to change their mind, I

don't know, but obviously we would

4:23:274:23:31

like to go ahead with the previously

proposed authority with all seven

4:23:314:23:35

local authorities involved.

I beg

leave to ask the question with my

4:23:354:23:44

name on the order paper and

declarer.

4:23:444:23:47

Allegations of noncompliance act

seriously regardless of where it

4:23:534:23:55

takes place in the world. HRC are is

looking very closely at information

4:23:554:24:00

the icy AJ has publicly released in

the Paradise papers to see if it

4:24:004:24:04

reveals anything new. That could add

to the existing needs and

4:24:044:24:07

investigations.

If that the

government may be looking closely,

4:24:074:24:12

but they have looked closely at it

for a long time with very limited

4:24:124:24:15

action. When will the government

accept there is a deep anger amongst

4:24:154:24:20

taxpayers in this country about the

revelations about the rich and

4:24:204:24:26

powerful are able to get away with

aggressive tax avoidance. And also

4:24:264:24:31

the transparency is the best

antidote. Will the government giving

4:24:314:24:36

six to date by which the overseas

territories and the dependencies

4:24:364:24:41

will have to open a public register

of the beneficial interests,

4:24:414:24:45

beneficial ownership within their

jurisdiction?

You're right, we have

4:24:454:24:51

acting for a very long time. And

since 2010, we have introduced

4:24:514:24:58

almost 100 measures. That is more

than a combined health budget that

4:24:584:25:02

for England, North Ireland and

Scotland. We have one of the lowest

4:25:024:25:06

tax gaps in the world, one of the

lowest on record in this country. We

4:25:064:25:09

have been working very hard and it

was very seriously and we will

4:25:094:25:13

continue to do so. As we go on to

overseas territories and Crown

4:25:134:25:17

dependency, again and has been taken

very seriously, again two weeks

4:25:174:25:21

ago... The Prime Minister stressed

the importance of this, we already

4:25:214:25:25

have central registers in four of

those authorities, including

4:25:254:25:31

Bermuda... And in terms of

Montserrat... They will publish

4:25:314:25:39

registers, they will have registers

by April next year. And in relation

4:25:394:25:42

to tax and... They have been

particularly affected so they have

4:25:424:25:47

been given extra time. But we are

clear action needs to be taken.

The

4:25:474:25:52

Council of the European Union

meeting in Brussels, week last

4:25:524:25:58

Monday, issued their blacklist of

tax havens and their conclusions

4:25:584:26:00

reveal that a number of British

dependencies and overseas

4:26:004:26:03

territories on the greatest have

entered into commitments of the EU

4:26:034:26:08

to implement tax governance

principles. Specifically Bermuda,

4:26:084:26:16

the Cayman Islands, Guernsey, the

Isle of Man and Jersey have

4:26:164:26:21

undertaken to address concerns about

the tax regimes which produce

4:26:214:26:25

profits without real economic

activity. Does the government

4:26:254:26:29

support the EU in this initiative

and will it impose the same

4:26:294:26:35

sanctions on long compliant

countries as the EU proposed after

4:26:354:26:37

Brexit?

We certainly support the

work undertaken in producing this

4:26:374:26:44

report. And the whole process, we

have been at the forefront of this.

4:26:444:26:48

We recognise the statements made

about long commitment of those

4:26:484:26:57

jurisdictions which are cooperative.

That is a very important point to

4:26:574:27:00

stress. None of the Crown

dependencies or territories were

4:27:004:27:05

under the list of noncooperative.

They were all on cooperative lists

4:27:054:27:09

and it has been identified as the

areas they want to take action and

4:27:094:27:14

they we are fully supportive of it.

My lords, the disinformation

4:27:144:27:19

surrounding this issue is

staggering. As is the confirmation

4:27:194:27:22

of illegal tax evasion, lawful tax

avoidance and money laundering.

4:27:224:27:26

Would my friend the Minister agree

that the new gold standard of

4:27:264:27:33

proactive reporting and transparency

in favour of tax authorities in

4:27:334:27:36

respect of the capital income of any

legal person, trust individual using

4:27:364:27:41

the financial services industry is

in fact it Cayman Islands?

Well, the

4:27:414:27:47

Cayman Islands are one. They have

work to do as all jurisdictions. In

4:27:474:27:51

this area. To meet the standards set

down. It is true to say in terms of

4:27:514:27:59

the Cayman Islands that with their

centrally held register, they are

4:27:594:28:02

going above and beyond what is

required by the financial action tax

4:28:024:28:06

falls. We are certain we want to

make sure all UK citizens pay all

4:28:064:28:12

tax due by them. Whether held in the

world -- wherever it is held in the

4:28:124:28:22

world. We intend to ensure all

jurisdictions holder that.

Given the

4:28:224:28:26

level of public shock at what was

revealed in the Paradise papers, the

4:28:264:28:33

ministers answers today follow the

pattern the same emergent pattern of

4:28:334:28:41

recent years. Well, we are doing

what we can, we are getting certain

4:28:414:28:46

proceeds, and yet, what the Paradise

papers reflected, it's a massive

4:28:464:28:55

scale, whole range of individuals

and companies who owe tax. ...

4:28:554:29:01

Putting themselves under the

jurisdiction of these islands and

4:29:014:29:08

escaping taxation which is owed to

this country. I do ask the Minister

4:29:084:29:13

to respond to the questions my noble

friend asked. With a degree of

4:29:134:29:19

forthrightness.

I think the question

was about publicly registered. The

4:29:194:29:27

UK is the first major economy to

issue a public register, a foreign

4:29:274:29:34

owned companies. The UK is leading

in this, a commitment given at the

4:29:344:29:39

global anti-corruption Summit which

David Cameron actually initiated,

4:29:394:29:41

which took a land mark innings. It

is not required that others have to

4:29:414:29:48

make sure it is a public register.

Another jurisdictions, it has to be

4:29:484:29:54

available to tax authorities and

also to security authorities in the

4:29:544:29:59

case of counterterrorist finances.

That is what is happening. In those

4:29:594:30:02

jurisdictions at the present time.

There is still more to be done and

4:30:024:30:05

we are far from complacent about it.

Does the Minister think this

4:30:054:30:12

proposal will go away, we have

problem with defence and security of

4:30:124:30:16

overseas territories and we are so

few ships now we can't do it and if

4:30:164:30:19

we are unable to actually defend

them, maybe they should no longer be

4:30:194:30:22

British Overseas Territories?

The

overseas territories and the Crown

4:30:224:30:28

dependencies are very important part

of the British family and will be a

4:30:284:30:31

part of global Britain going

forward. It is very important that

4:30:314:30:33

it is part of that family that

everybody works together to ensure

4:30:334:30:39

those people who have assets held

overseas actually make sure they are

4:30:394:30:43

reported in an accurate and timely

way to the tax authorities of their

4:30:434:30:46

countries.

I'd like to draw houses

attention to my declared interests.

4:30:464:30:58

My lords, the transfer of

responsibilities is designed to get

4:30:584:31:06

higher education providers...

Equality act. There are many

4:31:064:31:10

specifications in that act, on

exclusivity and good practice. The

4:31:104:31:14

experience of disabled students in

higher education is of equal

4:31:144:31:17

importance is about non-disabled

students and we will continue to

4:31:174:31:21

review the need of best actors

guidance as necessary.

My lords,

4:31:214:31:25

thank you the noble Minister for

that reply. May I ask, if the

4:31:254:31:32

surgeon nation has ripped through

improved since we did the higher

4:31:324:31:36

education Bill? -- the situation.

When I was looking at higher

4:31:364:31:41

education as a route to excellence

paper, there was no guidance in it.

4:31:414:31:46

When asked where it was, I was told

an official we would entrust the

4:31:464:31:51

courts to sort it out. In a

subsequent meeting, I was told by

4:31:514:31:58

the disabled student sector

leadership group under Professor

4:31:584:32:02

layout which was the author of it,

don't worry, almost half the

4:32:024:32:07

institutions have a policy in place.

How can his students navigate the

4:32:074:32:15

system? And what do they do if

something goes wrong without having

4:32:154:32:19

to take the full weight of a legal

challenge on the rain-soaked

4:32:194:32:22

shoulders? -- on their shoulders.

Can I just say, there are a number

4:32:224:32:34

of good guidance is available from

the disabled sector leadership

4:32:344:32:41

group, the office for the

Independent adjudicator and achieve

4:32:414:32:45

AA has also issued guidance for

inclusivity across teaching,

4:32:454:32:48

learning and assessment. And hefty

have also undertaken their own

4:32:484:32:56

review and there was a 76% response

and there is more to do, but higher

4:32:564:33:01

education providers have got the

message and they are looking at what

4:33:014:33:07

more they need to do in order to

provide the right facilities for the

4:33:074:33:10

disabled students.

Schoolchildren

with disability and autism are

4:33:104:33:20

excluded by many of their peers

throughout their school life and

4:33:204:33:23

teachers are not often equipped to

be able to help and resolve

4:33:234:33:25

problems. Can I ask, what is the

government doing to ensure this

4:33:254:33:30

experience does not continue when

these young people into higher

4:33:304:33:32

education?

As mentioned before,

there are specific duties laid out

4:33:324:33:38

under the equalities act 2010 and I

think the noble lord was referring

4:33:384:33:41

to schools, let's talk about schools

and higher education institutions.

4:33:414:33:46

There are clear remit down for them

to adhere to ensuring that all of

4:33:464:33:51

them are looked after properly.

Challenges to students with

4:33:514:33:58

disabilities such as dyslexia, low

vision and blinders is the

4:33:584:34:03

accessibility of academic text books

and journals. With the advent of

4:34:034:34:08

digital technology, this problem is

now solvable. Indeed, in the United

4:34:084:34:14

States, universities now require

publishers to provide textbooks that

4:34:144:34:18

meet accessibility standards. The

problem with the transfer of

4:34:184:34:22

responsibility for student support

is that UK universities do not know

4:34:224:34:28

what is possible or how to make it

available. With the minister be

4:34:284:34:32

willing to convene a Round Table

involving the University

4:34:324:34:38

authorities, publishers and

representatives of disabled people

4:34:384:34:41

with knowledge of good practice in

this area in order to put a system

4:34:414:34:45

in place that would provide a final

solution to the problem of making

4:34:454:34:49

academic material accessible.

The

best answer I think I can give is

4:34:494:34:55

that I will pass his question and

his request on to Joe Johnson. And I

4:34:554:35:02

am sure he will look at that

carefully. Also, one of the

4:35:024:35:07

important parts of policy is to

ensure institutions are able to

4:35:074:35:14

decipher -- decide for themselves

how to best look after the needs of

4:35:144:35:19

dyslexic students. At the House will

know, very greatly in size and the

4:35:194:35:23

type of course they offer and within

the institutions, there is great

4:35:234:35:26

variation on the way the course is

delivered. Disabled students

4:35:264:35:30

themselves very greatly in the type

and level of support they need. We

4:35:304:35:33

do think the autonomy... So usually

debated should be left to that

4:35:334:35:41

extent.

My lords, it makes little

sense is somebody who has been

4:35:414:35:49

clinically diagnosed with dyslexia

through school then has to be

4:35:494:35:54

reassessed at university for

dyslexia. Therefore, I'm very

4:35:544:35:58

grateful to the noble lord Lord Accu

who wrote to me to say this will be

4:35:584:36:04

reviewed. Can my noble lord -- noble

friend and say in terms of the

4:36:044:36:12

review and when this review will be

completed?

Indeed. I am aware of the

4:36:124:36:22

note made. But the review will start

to take evidence from those invited

4:36:224:36:28

early in the New Year and we hope

the review will report that in a few

4:36:284:36:32

months. Little bit more detail, it

will consider the evidential

4:36:324:36:37

requirements for students applying

for disabled student allowances with

4:36:374:36:40

specific learning difficulties and

particularly for those with

4:36:404:36:44

dyslexia.

He is relying on the

autonomy of universities and various

4:36:444:36:52

bits of guidance, but has Lord Adler

has said, by July, barely half of

4:36:524:37:00

universities actually had a policy

in place. The experience of students

4:37:004:37:06

will be very variable where they

have a disability and where they

4:37:064:37:10

need special requirements. I would

ask the Minister because the

4:37:104:37:16

universities are producing such a

patchy performance, we need to have

4:37:164:37:21

some reassurance there will be some

kind of regulatory intervention if

4:37:214:37:24

they do not get their act together.

We do not think it is right we go

4:37:244:37:30

for regular tree action or even

legislation. It is not just because

4:37:304:37:34

of so much guidance, it is also let

me refer the House to the review

4:37:344:37:40

where we have the 70% response.

Nearly all respondents have recently

4:37:404:37:46

carried out view of support or plans

to do so in the future. Some

4:37:464:37:51

providers have made significant

progress, particularly focusing on

4:37:514:37:53

lecture capturing -- captioning.

Research also highlights the need

4:37:534:37:59

for sustained development to support

students who are disabled. And an

4:37:594:38:07

effort to make the necessary

changes. There is more work to done.

4:38:074:38:11

I beg leave to ask the question on

the order paper.

The government is

4:38:114:38:21

supporting the Royal Borough of

Cannington and Chelsea to rehouse

4:38:214:38:24

survivors of the Grenfell Tower fire

as quickly as possible. Rehousing

4:38:244:38:30

this procedure to pace which

respects the needs, wants and

4:38:304:38:36

situation of survivors. Bureaucratic

inertia must not add to the delay.

4:38:364:38:39

In line with the recent task force

report, expect the council to do

4:38:394:38:43

whatever is necessary to ensure

households can move into homes as

4:38:434:38:47

swiftly as possible.

Today is six

months as the tragedy of Grenfell

4:38:474:38:55

Tower. Remember, the victims and

survivors of that terrible night. I

4:38:554:38:58

paid about -- tribute to the

emergency service workers, public

4:38:584:39:04

sector staff, the voluntary sector

and the communities. Who are working

4:39:044:39:11

to get the community back on its

feet. Six months is a very long time

4:39:114:39:15

to be living in hotel accommodation

and no way to spend Christmas.

4:39:154:39:20

Vulnerable, unsettled and

traumatised. Can the Lord tell the

4:39:204:39:26

-- below noble lord tell what

specific action the government is

4:39:264:39:29

sticking to get these families into

accommodation in the New Year. We

4:39:294:39:34

want to be talking about going

forward and housing families in

4:39:344:39:39

permanent accommodation. Because

what despite what the local

4:39:394:39:42

authority says, the situation of the

majority of family needs

4:39:424:39:53

Does what the Lord said about the

father service in the community

4:39:544:40:00

response, a response which was paid

tribute to only Today programme by

4:40:004:40:06

the Archbishop, who spoke very

movingly about this? To bring the

4:40:064:40:11

House up to date, 151 homes were

lost in the fire. Some of those were

4:40:114:40:18

overcrowded, other had

multi-generational hassles. 210

4:40:184:40:26

households who formerly lived in

Grenfell Tower need to be rehoused.

4:40:264:40:31

Many have accepted an offer of

temporary or permanent

4:40:314:40:36

accommodation, 99 have moved on. 111

or an emergency accommodation with

4:40:364:40:44

66 yet to accept an offer of

accommodation. The noble lord asks

4:40:444:40:49

what action is being taken. The

Royal Borough of Kensington and

4:40:494:40:54

Chelsea plan by Christmas to have

acquired a 300 homes set against the

4:40:544:40:58

210 that we need. They are acquiring

two holds a day. I quite agree that

4:40:584:41:05

Christmas is now time to spend an

emergency accommodation, the

4:41:054:41:08

Government is acutely aware of that,

and in the four hotels where most of

4:41:084:41:14

the families are, specific

arrangements were made for the

4:41:144:41:17

family still have space of their own

to meet each other and entertain

4:41:174:41:19

their wider families if they want

to. A lot of services are plain on

4:41:194:41:25

by voluntary groups over the

Christmas period to support those

4:41:254:41:28

families. We hope that by June next

year, everyone will have moved into

4:41:284:41:33

permanent accommodation. But

families need to move on their own

4:41:334:41:37

time. Some are in an emergency

accommodation not wanting to move

4:41:374:41:41

into temporary accommodation because

they may have to move twice in the

4:41:414:41:45

Royal Borough of Kensington and

Chelsea is doing in terms of work

4:41:454:41:49

alongside the families, finding out

what accommodation they need and

4:41:494:41:52

seeking to match it with the 300

houses they are acquiring. I very

4:41:524:41:56

much hope by June everyone will have

been offered and accepted permanent

4:41:564:42:02

accommodation.

May I join in paying

respects to those who died in the

4:42:024:42:11

Grenfell Tower Fire six months ago?

This question is about what the

4:42:114:42:15

Government is doing and I wonder

whether the Minister does accept

4:42:154:42:20

that local people have now lost

confidence in their local council.

4:42:204:42:25

Could I remind the Minister that in

the Government statement on the fire

4:42:254:42:31

on the 19th of October, they were

expected to be 300 super Moordown so

4:42:314:42:41

professional... Could I ask the

Minister whether he has confidence

4:42:414:42:48

in the local council to deliver or

whether it may be time for the

4:42:484:42:53

Government to intervene more

directly?

The Government has no

4:42:534:42:56

plans to put commissioned into the

Royal Borough of Kensington and

4:42:564:43:01

Chelsea. They have a new leader and

you Chief Executive and the

4:43:014:43:07

Government has established a task

force to make sure they live up to

4:43:074:43:10

the expectations everyone has of

what they plan to do. Some of those

4:43:104:43:16

in temporary accommodation once that

temporary accommodation to become

4:43:164:43:19

their permanent home and the Royal

Borough is approaching the relevant

4:43:194:43:23

Londoners to see if that can take

place. Some of those in emergency

4:43:234:43:29

accommodation have already accepted

permanent accommodation, but it

4:43:294:43:33

takes time to complete, fit out the

House, putting the white goods for

4:43:334:43:38

the families to move on. I am aware

there is an impatient to make

4:43:384:43:44

progress but I'm confident the Royal

Borough of Kensington and Chelsea,

4:43:444:43:47

who are planning to spend nearly a

quarter of £1 billion acquiring

4:43:474:43:52

property, have now got the message

and the lack of emotional

4:43:524:43:56

intelligence and empathy is behind

us and they are getting on with the

4:43:564:43:59

job.

Could the noble lord say...?

Can my noble friend tell me, or any

4:43:594:44:10

of those who are claiming no social

housing, where any of those tenants

4:44:104:44:18

of Grenfell Tower who had moved out

and unlawfully let their

4:44:184:44:25

accommodation to more than one

family? Because I don't think we

4:44:254:44:29

need have too much sympathy for

people that behaves like that.

I'm

4:44:294:44:37

not sure I fully understood the

question. The assistance that the

4:44:374:44:43

Government and the Royal Bath

Borough of Kensington and Chelsea

4:44:434:44:46

are seeking to extend its to those

who are living in Grenfell Tower at

4:44:464:44:52

the time who are now homeless or who

were homeless shortly after the

4:44:524:44:58

fire. Anybody who was living there

at the time is now being assisted by

4:44:584:45:03

the Royal Borough. I say to my noble

friend, he has lived through tragic

4:45:034:45:10

circumstances where people have lost

their life and he will know better

4:45:104:45:13

than anyone else the trauma that

those people have been through. I

4:45:134:45:17

think we ought to allow them the

time and space to find suitable

4:45:174:45:21

accommodation to move into.

My

lords, could the noble lord say why

4:45:214:45:29

in the aftermath of the Grenfell

tragedy the Government continues

4:45:294:45:34

apace with its deregulation agenda?

So far as Grenfell Tower is

4:45:344:45:44

concerned, the review is shortly to

produce its interim report on fire

4:45:444:45:49

regulations. She will know that

after the tragedy at Grenfell Tower,

4:45:494:45:53

and fights was given one two

locations to owners of property that

4:45:534:45:57

may not conform with the appropriate

cladding of how to make safety

4:45:574:46:05

measures appropriate for those

blogs. The whole thrust of the

4:46:054:46:09

enquiry, the whole thrust is to make

sure that nothing like this ever

4:46:094:46:15

happens

4:46:154:46:15

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