Browse content similar to 26/01/2018. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Second reading of the Conscientious
Objection (Medical Activities) Bill. | 0:03:26 | 0:03:32 | |
My Lords, I beg to move that this
bill now be read a second time. This | 0:03:32 | 0:03:37 | |
bill is designed to afford
protection to those in health care | 0:03:37 | 0:03:40 | |
who object on grounds of conscience
to being asked to participate in end | 0:03:40 | 0:03:45 | |
of life treatment. It's about a
human rights, the right to freedom | 0:03:45 | 0:03:50 | |
of belief, religion and conscience.
There have always been those who | 0:03:50 | 0:03:53 | |
when faced with a call to
participate or engage in the end of | 0:03:53 | 0:03:57 | |
life, object to so doing.
Conscientious objection was those | 0:03:57 | 0:04:02 | |
provided for in 1757 in the United
Kingdom. If we think back 100 years | 0:04:02 | 0:04:07 | |
ago on this day, a la country was at
war, the world was at war. But even | 0:04:07 | 0:04:12 | |
at this most parlous time, 16,000
men were excused from constriction | 0:04:12 | 0:04:16 | |
to military service on grounds of
conscience. Some, such as Quakers, | 0:04:16 | 0:04:26 | |
because of religious beliefs. Others
such as radical socialists because | 0:04:26 | 0:04:28 | |
of political principle. During World
War II we accommodated 60,000 | 0:04:28 | 0:04:33 | |
registered conscientious objectors,
not easy for them, maybe some would | 0:04:33 | 0:04:36 | |
say not easy for others who fought.
It was not simple but, my Lords, it | 0:04:36 | 0:04:40 | |
was possible to accommodate
conscientious objection. The United | 0:04:40 | 0:04:47 | |
Kingdom therefore has a long and
proud record of recognition of | 0:04:47 | 0:04:50 | |
rights of conscience and respect for
conscience. It is a principle | 0:04:50 | 0:04:55 | |
recognised in international law as
well as in domestic legislation. The | 0:04:55 | 0:05:01 | |
European Court of Human Rights in
2011 interpreted the article nine | 0:05:01 | 0:05:04 | |
right to freedom to manifest
believed to include conscientious | 0:05:04 | 0:05:09 | |
objection and overturned the
conviction of an Armenian Jehovah's | 0:05:09 | 0:05:12 | |
Witness to his refusal to perform
military service at a time when | 0:05:12 | 0:05:15 | |
there was no other option available
to him. | 0:05:15 | 0:05:19 | |
As respect for conscience applies to
those who refuse to participate in | 0:05:19 | 0:05:22 | |
the taking of life in the war, so it
has been applied to those who refuse | 0:05:22 | 0:05:26 | |
to be involved in what they see as
the taking of life through health | 0:05:26 | 0:05:31 | |
care practice. My Lords, in 1967
when the UK legislated to | 0:05:31 | 0:05:36 | |
decriminalise abortion in certain
circumstances, provision was made to | 0:05:36 | 0:05:41 | |
conscientious objection because it
was understood that what was being | 0:05:41 | 0:05:43 | |
made legal was regarded by some as
the taking of life. Were it not so, | 0:05:43 | 0:05:50 | |
there would have been no need for
protection of conscience. And in | 0:05:50 | 0:05:56 | |
1990 when the human fertilisation
and the act was passed, there was | 0:05:56 | 0:05:59 | |
again limited provision for
conscientious objection. -- the | 0:05:59 | 0:06:05 | |
human fertilisation and embryology
act. Whenever Assisted Dying Bill is | 0:06:05 | 0:06:08 | |
being discussed, there has been
provision for conscientious | 0:06:08 | 0:06:12 | |
objection. Where conscientious
objection is permitted, it is not | 0:06:12 | 0:06:16 | |
absolute. Medical practitioners must
assess to save lives, prevent grave | 0:06:16 | 0:06:21 | |
or complex injury. It is a complex
peeled. Some have statutory rights, | 0:06:21 | 0:06:26 | |
some like GPs have contractual
rights not to engage, but it is | 0:06:26 | 0:06:30 | |
contractual and not statutory and
some have no rights at all. | 0:06:30 | 0:06:33 | |
Why does it matter anyway, my Lords?
Professor Dan Brock, a leading | 0:06:33 | 0:06:40 | |
bioethicist at Harvard, describes
conscience as the basis of an | 0:06:40 | 0:06:44 | |
individual's moral integrity. Saying
it defines who, at least morally | 0:06:44 | 0:06:48 | |
speaking, the person is. Maintaining
moral integrity, he asserts, | 0:06:48 | 0:06:57 | |
requires a person does not violate
their moral commitments and that is | 0:06:57 | 0:07:00 | |
why, my lord, we allow conscientious
objection in health care so that | 0:07:00 | 0:07:02 | |
people can maintain moral integrity,
without which major health and other | 0:07:02 | 0:07:06 | |
problems will almost inevitably
emerge. Through conscience, we each | 0:07:06 | 0:07:10 | |
decide whether an action is right or
wrong. Conscience is fundamental to | 0:07:10 | 0:07:18 | |
moral agency and it is a proper
feature of all areas of human | 0:07:18 | 0:07:24 | |
endeavour, including professional
practice. The provision of medical | 0:07:24 | 0:07:27 | |
services is never value free. Health
care practitioners make moral | 0:07:27 | 0:07:33 | |
judgments all day every day. Very
often very difficult judgments. In | 0:07:33 | 0:07:38 | |
2010 when the equality act was
passed, freedom of religion or | 0:07:38 | 0:07:45 | |
belief was awarded protected
characteristic status. Like six, age | 0:07:45 | 0:07:50 | |
and disability. And, my Lords,
protection from discrimination, from | 0:07:50 | 0:07:55 | |
exclusion on grounds of religion or
belief, is provided for in section | 0:07:55 | 0:07:58 | |
13 of that act which defines
religion and belief as any religious | 0:07:58 | 0:08:02 | |
or philosophical belief and says a
reference to belief includes a lack | 0:08:02 | 0:08:08 | |
of belief. Conscious, my lord, is
not the preserve of the religious -- | 0:08:08 | 0:08:13 | |
conscience, my lord. Those who think
it is wrong to end human rights do | 0:08:13 | 0:08:18 | |
so for many reasons, scientific,
philosophical, religious and other | 0:08:18 | 0:08:22 | |
beliefs. The right to conscientious
objection exists as a protection for | 0:08:22 | 0:08:26 | |
medical professionals from the moral
injury of being involved in actions | 0:08:26 | 0:08:29 | |
which they believe destroy life. It
exists too for the protection of | 0:08:29 | 0:08:35 | |
patients, who can believe that the
professional looking them can act in | 0:08:35 | 0:08:38 | |
accord with their conscience.
Conscientious objection, my Lords, | 0:08:38 | 0:08:43 | |
operates at the margin of medical
treatment, where the duty to do no | 0:08:43 | 0:08:47 | |
harm moves to accommodate positive
action to life. It is not just | 0:08:47 | 0:08:52 | |
domestic law which recognises the
right of conscientious objection. | 0:08:52 | 0:08:56 | |
The Council of Europe's
parliamentary assembly adopted | 0:08:56 | 0:09:02 | |
resolution 1763 affirming the right
of conscientious objection for | 0:09:02 | 0:09:04 | |
medical professions. The resolution
states no person, hospital or | 0:09:04 | 0:09:10 | |
institution shall be coerced, held
liable or discriminated against in | 0:09:10 | 0:09:14 | |
any way because they refusal to
perform, accommodate, assist or | 0:09:14 | 0:09:18 | |
submit to an abortion. It is
non-binding but its rear forms the | 0:09:18 | 0:09:23 | |
normative understanding of freedom
of conscience. | 0:09:23 | 0:09:26 | |
Society has changed. The law has
been interpreted differently in the | 0:09:26 | 0:09:29 | |
United Kingdom. In 2014 the case of
Greater Glasgow health board was | 0:09:29 | 0:09:36 | |
heard by the Supreme Court. In this
case, Team Gresini midwives | 0:09:36 | 0:09:41 | |
conscientiously objected to having
delegate tasks to supervise or to | 0:09:41 | 0:09:45 | |
support those directly involved in
abortion. -- in this case, two | 0:09:45 | 0:09:50 | |
midwives. They were able to exercise
this right of conscientious | 0:09:50 | 0:09:56 | |
objection for their whole careers
until Alan Malcolm -- until an | 0:09:56 | 0:10:00 | |
amalgamation of hospitals led to
them being able to do this work. | 0:10:00 | 0:10:03 | |
Ultimately they could not in
conscience have any role in the | 0:10:03 | 0:10:07 | |
provision of abortion. They,
skilled, compassionate, experienced | 0:10:07 | 0:10:11 | |
midwives, were unable to continue to
serve as midwives, doing what they | 0:10:11 | 0:10:15 | |
had in all of their professional
lives, helping women through the | 0:10:15 | 0:10:19 | |
sometimes difficult process of
carrying and bearing a child. | 0:10:19 | 0:10:23 | |
I know that that is difficult,
anybody who has carried a child | 0:10:23 | 0:10:27 | |
knows the sensitivities attached to
it, and those good women were lost | 0:10:27 | 0:10:32 | |
in the profession because the
Supreme Court decided that indirect | 0:10:32 | 0:10:34 | |
routes taken by nurses and midwives
were excluded from protection under | 0:10:34 | 0:10:39 | |
section four of the Abortion Act.
My Lords, it simpler, be consistent | 0:10:39 | 0:10:44 | |
with conscience to say I cannot do
this, but I will order you to do it. | 0:10:44 | 0:10:49 | |
If one delegate, supervisors or
support some activity, then one is | 0:10:49 | 0:10:52 | |
not unreasonable in concluding that
one shares moral responsibility for | 0:10:52 | 0:10:57 | |
what happens.
There is a lot of evidence that | 0:10:57 | 0:11:02 | |
medical professionals are suffering
serious disadvantage and | 0:11:02 | 0:11:04 | |
discrimination for their beliefs. A
2016 at cross-party inquiry into | 0:11:04 | 0:11:11 | |
freedom of conscience in abortion
provision specifically received many | 0:11:11 | 0:11:16 | |
accounts by medical professionals
who have experienced discrimination | 0:11:16 | 0:11:18 | |
during their worklife due to their
beliefs. I have heard so many | 0:11:18 | 0:11:23 | |
stories of young doctors and nurses
contemplating their future who have | 0:11:23 | 0:11:27 | |
decided that although they would
dearly love to be involved in | 0:11:27 | 0:11:32 | |
obstetrics and gynaecology, even
though they are energised and feel | 0:11:32 | 0:11:34 | |
vocationally called to the medicine
of helping women through conception | 0:11:34 | 0:11:38 | |
and childbirth, nevertheless they
cannot do it because they could not | 0:11:38 | 0:11:42 | |
in conscience: unborn child. That is
why I have introduced this bill, it | 0:11:42 | 0:11:50 | |
aims to seek as a matter of statute
that nobody should be under any duty | 0:11:50 | 0:11:54 | |
to participate in activities they
believe involve resuming -- the | 0:11:54 | 0:11:58 | |
taking of human life, either in the
withdrawal of life-sustaining | 0:11:58 | 0:12:02 | |
treatment or any activity authorised
by the 19671990 acts. Such a reform | 0:12:02 | 0:12:09 | |
would re-establish legal protection
for medical conscientious objectors | 0:12:09 | 0:12:14 | |
and reaffirmed the rights of health
care workers. It would give reality | 0:12:14 | 0:12:17 | |
to the protections afforded in the
act. There is a serious shortage of | 0:12:17 | 0:12:22 | |
health care professionals, we are
having to bring doctors and nurses | 0:12:22 | 0:12:25 | |
from abroad. We spent £100 million
bringing 3000 GPs from other | 0:12:25 | 0:12:30 | |
countries this year. We are short of
3500 midwives and we spend, | 0:12:30 | 0:12:35 | |
according to the Royal College of
Midwives, nearly 100 million for | 0:12:35 | 0:12:38 | |
agency nurses. It is a problem. Many
young doctors, midwives and other | 0:12:38 | 0:12:42 | |
health care professionals are
leaving the UK. Many reasons for | 0:12:42 | 0:12:50 | |
this, one of them is that those who
labour at the coal face cannot | 0:12:50 | 0:12:53 | |
engage with certain activities. We
invest in their training, we need | 0:12:53 | 0:12:55 | |
their skills, it is time to
accommodate them. I emphasise again | 0:12:55 | 0:12:59 | |
that this bill is not about reducing
access to the termination of | 0:12:59 | 0:13:03 | |
pregnancy or the withdrawal of
life-sustaining treatment. It would | 0:13:03 | 0:13:07 | |
simply mean that health care workers
of many different kinds in | 0:13:07 | 0:13:10 | |
registering their objections to the
procedures defined in to the bill | 0:13:10 | 0:13:15 | |
must be reasonably accommodated by
those managing them so that they may | 0:13:15 | 0:13:18 | |
work without involvement in those
areas. My Lords, 60% of abortions | 0:13:18 | 0:13:26 | |
are religious and the provider by
private companies. 2% privately | 0:13:26 | 0:13:30 | |
funded. 30% take place in NHS
hospitals, alongside all the other | 0:13:30 | 0:13:37 | |
obstetric and biological procedures.
92% of abortions in 2016, 100 | 0:13:37 | 0:13:43 | |
70,000, were carried out at under 30
weeks gestation. Increasingly | 0:13:43 | 0:13:47 | |
medical abortions involving the use
of medication. That gives rise to be | 0:13:47 | 0:13:51 | |
necessary to protect rights of
conscience above GPs and pharmacists | 0:13:51 | 0:13:54 | |
-- were carried out at under 13
weeks gestation. | 0:13:54 | 0:14:04 | |
Rather than forcing staff are other
reasons to engage in proceedings | 0:14:04 | 0:14:08 | |
which those staff simply, for
reasons of conscience cannot do. | 0:14:08 | 0:14:12 | |
Reasonable accommodation my Lords is
a matter of liberty and equality of | 0:14:12 | 0:14:19 | |
individual freedom and social
inclusion. That is why I believe | 0:14:19 | 0:14:23 | |
this is important and timely
legislation. I have heard that there | 0:14:23 | 0:14:27 | |
is widespread support for this bill.
I know it has attracted support from | 0:14:27 | 0:14:31 | |
all sides of this House and from the
Commons, but I hope that in moving | 0:14:31 | 0:14:36 | |
and through second reading, we will
enhance the quality of the service | 0:14:36 | 0:14:39 | |
provided to all our people and the
environment in which health care | 0:14:39 | 0:14:43 | |
professionals work. I beg to move.
The question is that this bilby | 0:14:43 | 0:14:49 | |
ready second time? -- the question
is that this bill be ready second | 0:14:49 | 0:14:58 | |
time. I really do not believe that
there are lots of professionals in | 0:14:58 | 0:15:07 | |
this country that feel that their
rights are insufficiently | 0:15:07 | 0:15:11 | |
represented by the current law. The
existing provisions for health care | 0:15:11 | 0:15:14 | |
professionals to reject on the
grounds of conscience in certain | 0:15:14 | 0:15:17 | |
well-defined circumstances is
currently sensible and balanced, and | 0:15:17 | 0:15:22 | |
this bill is both unnecessary and
potentially dangerous. Now, I very | 0:15:22 | 0:15:27 | |
much respect the concerns of health
care professionals to decline to | 0:15:27 | 0:15:31 | |
participate in a hands-on capacity
in specific medical activities. For' | 0:15:31 | 0:15:37 | |
reasons, firstly, because they have
that right to act in line with the | 0:15:37 | 0:15:42 | |
police. But for a second reason,
because in these often complicated | 0:15:42 | 0:15:49 | |
and vulnerable situations, where
patients themselves have had to make | 0:15:49 | 0:15:52 | |
really difficult decisions about
abortion, about IVF, about end of | 0:15:52 | 0:15:58 | |
life care, those patients deserve to
be treated by professionals who | 0:15:58 | 0:16:05 | |
respect the treatment decisions. And
so it is really important that | 0:16:05 | 0:16:08 | |
health care professionals have a
proper right to conscientiously | 0:16:08 | 0:16:11 | |
object. I believe this is allowed
for in the current legislation and | 0:16:11 | 0:16:18 | |
in the guidance issued by the
General medical Council the Nursing | 0:16:18 | 0:16:23 | |
and Midwifery Council and under
current employment law and under the | 0:16:23 | 0:16:25 | |
Human Rights Act. But patients have
very important rights as well and | 0:16:25 | 0:16:30 | |
this bill would threaten the very
principle of respect for the wishes | 0:16:30 | 0:16:34 | |
of the patient and the right to
exercise choice. This must not | 0:16:34 | 0:16:37 | |
happen. If I was to be brutal, the
bill to be seen as a tactic, to | 0:16:37 | 0:16:43 | |
allow campaigning health care
professionals to undermine the get | 0:16:43 | 0:16:47 | |
it and indeed vital patients
choices, and I would like to focus | 0:16:47 | 0:16:51 | |
on three areas. Firstly, employment
law. The bill has provisions for the | 0:16:51 | 0:16:56 | |
employer not to discriminate against
or victimise an employees for | 0:16:56 | 0:17:00 | |
involving, invoking conscientious
objection and in terms of their | 0:17:00 | 0:17:06 | |
employment, the opportunities for
promotion of transfer and training, | 0:17:06 | 0:17:11 | |
dismissal by subjecting individuals
to any other directorate. Now, that | 0:17:11 | 0:17:13 | |
looks great. Motherhood and apple
pie. But it is very unnecessary | 0:17:13 | 0:17:21 | |
because the existing legislation
defends the rights of employees in | 0:17:21 | 0:17:27 | |
the circumstances already and I
believe that we only hear of a very | 0:17:27 | 0:17:31 | |
few cases that have come to law,
where individuals appear to have | 0:17:31 | 0:17:34 | |
been discriminated against because
there are comparatively few cases. I | 0:17:34 | 0:17:42 | |
believe that a change of provisions
in the bill have the potential to | 0:17:42 | 0:17:47 | |
undermine the occupational
requirement exemption under the | 0:17:47 | 0:17:53 | |
equality act of 2010, which allows,
for example, an oncology hospital | 0:17:53 | 0:18:00 | |
ward not to employ a part of Ciaran
Norris under the conscientious | 0:18:00 | 0:18:03 | |
objection for caring for patients
whose life-saving treatment is by | 0:18:03 | 0:18:08 | |
agreement with the patient and
family Ron. The provisions in the | 0:18:08 | 0:18:12 | |
bill to extend the right of
objection by health care | 0:18:12 | 0:18:14 | |
professionals to activities required
to delegate or prepare for support | 0:18:14 | 0:18:20 | |
such activities which are subject to
the bill, would make this rest even | 0:18:20 | 0:18:24 | |
worse, and that we could see a
situation where a range of health | 0:18:24 | 0:18:28 | |
care professionals dotted across the
health care system and the care | 0:18:28 | 0:18:33 | |
pathway, in delegating and revising
and planning entire aspects of | 0:18:33 | 0:18:35 | |
health care and exercising the
conscience, could make it impossible | 0:18:35 | 0:18:41 | |
for the patients to achieve their
rights and the employer would have | 0:18:41 | 0:18:43 | |
no ability to prevent that. The
second point I would like to raise | 0:18:43 | 0:18:48 | |
is that the bill makes no obligation
on the individual to refer the | 0:18:48 | 0:18:54 | |
patient for the care that they need
and are entitled to. Some patients | 0:18:54 | 0:19:00 | |
who are less informed about their
entitlements, more vulnerable | 0:19:00 | 0:19:03 | |
patients, could simply failed to
secure a service that they should | 0:19:03 | 0:19:05 | |
have received, this inequity is
unacceptable. The third issue I | 0:19:05 | 0:19:10 | |
would like to cover its scope,
extending the scope of conscientious | 0:19:10 | 0:19:13 | |
objection puts us on a path towards
a living professionals to opt out of | 0:19:13 | 0:19:18 | |
providing even the basic end life
care. It elevates the important | 0:19:18 | 0:19:25 | |
personal beliefs of a health care
professional up to the patient, it | 0:19:25 | 0:19:29 | |
puts the needs and the wishes of the
patient at last, it is the very | 0:19:29 | 0:19:34 | |
opposite of patient centred care. We
know that 60% of Britons want more | 0:19:34 | 0:19:39 | |
control over decisions about their
health. The source global trends | 0:19:39 | 0:19:44 | |
survey in 2017 showed that very
clearly. We know that 82% of UK | 0:19:44 | 0:19:49 | |
citizens do not want doctors to make
decisions about end of life | 0:19:49 | 0:19:52 | |
treatment on their behalf. And the
Royal College of physicians, | 0:19:52 | 0:19:57 | |
national institute for clinical
excellence, and the public Health | 0:19:57 | 0:20:02 | |
Service Ombudsman has recognised
that more must be done to support | 0:20:02 | 0:20:04 | |
and people, particularly to exercise
their right to make decisions that | 0:20:04 | 0:20:08 | |
are right for them. So I believe
that this bill is impractical. I | 0:20:08 | 0:20:14 | |
respect entirely the noble baroness,
Baroness O'Loan's concern about | 0:20:14 | 0:20:19 | |
health care professionals' ability
to put this into practice, but I | 0:20:19 | 0:20:25 | |
believe the balance between the
rights of the health care | 0:20:25 | 0:20:27 | |
professional and the rights of the
patient would be fatally skewed by | 0:20:27 | 0:20:31 | |
this bill. Just last week the US
administration announced plans for a | 0:20:31 | 0:20:35 | |
conscience and religious freedom
division within the Department of | 0:20:35 | 0:20:38 | |
Health and human and this, together
with new rules that would | 0:20:38 | 0:20:42 | |
dramatically expand the ability of
health care institutions and workers | 0:20:42 | 0:20:46 | |
to refuse to provide medical care on
the basis of conscientious | 0:20:46 | 0:20:51 | |
objection. We are not living in the
land of Donald Trump, our laws | 0:20:51 | 0:20:57 | |
rightly put the needs of patients at
the centre, that is what our health | 0:20:57 | 0:21:00 | |
care system is for. I would urge my
fellow peers to this bill. Lost, I | 0:21:00 | 0:21:06 | |
am pleased to speak in support of
this bill. The issue raised by the | 0:21:06 | 0:21:12 | |
bill is simple. -- Lords. If someone
objects to abortion or assisted | 0:21:12 | 0:21:17 | |
dying on the grounds of conscience,
how far should we be entitled to opt | 0:21:17 | 0:21:24 | |
out? The issue is simple, but the
solution is difficult. The Supreme | 0:21:24 | 0:21:31 | |
Court held that as a matter of
construction, the conscience clause | 0:21:31 | 0:21:34 | |
provisions of the 1967 abortion act
should be interpreted narrowly, so | 0:21:34 | 0:21:42 | |
that Mary Dougan was not entitled to
refuse to help facilitate abortions | 0:21:42 | 0:21:48 | |
by organising other nurses for the
purpose of providing abortions. The | 0:21:48 | 0:21:54 | |
aim of this bill is to change the
wording so that freedom of | 0:21:54 | 0:21:59 | |
conscience will be able to be
invoked as a grounds for refusing to | 0:21:59 | 0:22:04 | |
do acts which are less directly
connected to the abortion itself | 0:22:04 | 0:22:07 | |
than is presently the case. I think
that is a good thing and I shall | 0:22:07 | 0:22:13 | |
endeavour to explain why. The first
reason why it is a good thing is | 0:22:13 | 0:22:19 | |
because a significant number of
dedicated health care professionals | 0:22:19 | 0:22:25 | |
have profound moral objections to
both abortion and assisted suicide. | 0:22:25 | 0:22:31 | |
The role of the state is not to sit
in judgment on this moral | 0:22:31 | 0:22:38 | |
objections, it is not the role of
the state to coerce people into | 0:22:38 | 0:22:42 | |
acting against their conscience.
Therefore, it is a good thing and a | 0:22:42 | 0:22:48 | |
reasonable thing that the state
should make conscientious objection | 0:22:48 | 0:22:51 | |
provision sufficiently broad to
excuse acts which genuinely found | 0:22:51 | 0:22:57 | |
the conscience. I think the state
should air on the side of respecting | 0:22:57 | 0:23:07 | |
conscience, rather than placing
valuable medical staff any position | 0:23:07 | 0:23:11 | |
and nursing staff as well any
position where they have to choose | 0:23:11 | 0:23:16 | |
on the location and the conscience.
My Lords, I have a number of friends | 0:23:16 | 0:23:24 | |
who when they were applying for
consultant posts in obstetrics would | 0:23:24 | 0:23:29 | |
be asked the question, "Are you
prepared to take your share of the | 0:23:29 | 0:23:35 | |
abortions?" And if they said yes,
they would be considered for the | 0:23:35 | 0:23:39 | |
appointment. If, on the other hand,
they said, "Yes, I am prepared to | 0:23:39 | 0:23:44 | |
take my share of abortions within
the 1967 act," they were not | 0:23:44 | 0:23:53 | |
considered for the consultant post
and many of them had to emigrate. | 0:23:53 | 0:23:58 | |
And they were very good clinicians
and it was a great loss. The second | 0:23:58 | 0:24:03 | |
reason I support this bill is
because there is no evidence | 0:24:03 | 0:24:10 | |
whatsoever that if this bill is
passed, it will detrimentally affect | 0:24:10 | 0:24:13 | |
anyone seeking an abortion. The
third reason I support the bill is | 0:24:13 | 0:24:20 | |
that it is both unwise and
unnecessary to force medics and | 0:24:20 | 0:24:28 | |
nurses to act against their
conscience in any sphere whatsoever. | 0:24:28 | 0:24:33 | |
If we train them to do that in one
sphere of work, we have only | 0:24:33 | 0:24:39 | |
ourselves to blame if they do that
in other aspects of their work. For | 0:24:39 | 0:24:46 | |
these reasons, I support this bill.
My Lords, I am only sorry to | 0:24:46 | 0:24:52 | |
disagree with my noble friend,
Baroness O'Loan, but I cannot | 0:24:52 | 0:24:57 | |
support this bill. Of course, all of
us will agree that a proper account | 0:24:57 | 0:25:02 | |
must be taken of a person's
conscientious objection to | 0:25:02 | 0:25:06 | |
participation in medical treatments,
which, they believe, friend against | 0:25:06 | 0:25:09 | |
the principle of the sanctity of
life, but what amounts to | 0:25:09 | 0:25:14 | |
participation, how we should the
statutory exemption go? The | 0:25:14 | 0:25:20 | |
treatments or non-treatments hair
under consideration to do with the | 0:25:20 | 0:25:27 | |
withdrawal of racist engagement to
fertility treatments and treatments | 0:25:27 | 0:25:30 | |
corrected to the termination of
pregnancies and it is about the last | 0:25:30 | 0:25:35 | |
of these, abortion, that I presently
want to focus, and in particular, | 0:25:35 | 0:25:39 | |
have only 2014 unanimous decision of
the Supreme Court. In her article, | 0:25:39 | 0:25:48 | |
and lastly's house Magazine, the
noble baroness said that the Supreme | 0:25:48 | 0:25:54 | |
Court interpreted participation in
the abortion act conscience clause | 0:25:54 | 0:25:59 | |
to mean only direct performance. All
right for surgeons, but must mean | 0:25:59 | 0:26:08 | |
that nurses and midwives who
conscientiously object to the | 0:26:08 | 0:26:10 | |
material involvement in enabling the
procedure were stripped off formal | 0:26:10 | 0:26:16 | |
statutory protections and a little
later in the article, she suggested | 0:26:16 | 0:26:22 | |
that are bill would, "Re-establish
legal protections for medical | 0:26:22 | 0:26:26 | |
conscientious objections and
reaffirm, of health care workers." I | 0:26:26 | 0:26:33 | |
must tell you, I profoundly disagree
with that analysis of the Mary | 0:26:33 | 0:26:38 | |
Dougan case and I will make three
basic points. Firstly, there is | 0:26:38 | 0:26:41 | |
simply no question of Mary Dougan
having changed the law on the rights | 0:26:41 | 0:26:49 | |
of conscientious objection in this
context, no question the four of the | 0:26:49 | 0:26:52 | |
day's bill re-establishing
reaffirming anything. The Supreme | 0:26:52 | 0:26:58 | |
Court, they were simply construing
section 4.1, the conscience clause | 0:26:58 | 0:27:04 | |
in the 1967 abortion act on the
ordinary principles of construction, | 0:27:04 | 0:27:08 | |
declining to give its either a
particular wide or a particularly | 0:27:08 | 0:27:15 | |
narrow meaning. And on this
construction they held the two | 0:27:15 | 0:27:18 | |
practitioners, as you have heard,
experienced midwives, employed as | 0:27:18 | 0:27:25 | |
labour ward coordinators were
exempted by the conscience clause | 0:27:25 | 0:27:29 | |
from many of the tasks involved in
that. Including any medical, nursing | 0:27:29 | 0:27:35 | |
care connected with the purpose of
undergoing labour and giving birth, | 0:27:35 | 0:27:40 | |
but they are not exempted from the
managerial and supervisory tasks, | 0:27:40 | 0:27:46 | |
which are carried out by hospital
ward coordinators, such as picking | 0:27:46 | 0:27:52 | |
patients into the hospital ward,
allocating staff to the patients on | 0:27:52 | 0:27:59 | |
the hospital ward, communicating
with other professionals, for | 0:27:59 | 0:28:04 | |
example, paging anaesthetists.
Baroness talks about very compelling | 0:28:04 | 0:28:16 | |
judgment, considered how the
conscience clause applies to each of | 0:28:16 | 0:28:19 | |
an agreed list of 13 specified
tasks, or set out in the judgment | 0:28:19 | 0:28:27 | |
and it is good but it is not the
same as reading the judgment. This | 0:28:27 | 0:28:32 | |
bill is, of course, designed to
overturn the judgment. See the end | 0:28:32 | 0:28:37 | |
of clause 1.2, and of course,
Parliament is entitled to change the | 0:28:37 | 0:28:40 | |
law to widen vary considerably, as
this would, the definition, the | 0:28:40 | 0:28:47 | |
approach to participation, what a
change it would be, but not the | 0:28:47 | 0:28:55 | |
restoration of Pavon's original
decision. My Lord's the second point | 0:28:55 | 0:28:59 | |
arising directly with these concerns
of article nine of the human rights | 0:28:59 | 0:29:05 | |
Convention, which also was dealt
with by the Supreme Court, as indeed | 0:29:05 | 0:29:09 | |
was the Equality Act 2010. With
regard to discrimination on grounds | 0:29:09 | 0:29:13 | |
of | 0:29:13 | 0:29:19 | |
Now, as to these principles, the
court recognised an employer's duty | 0:29:19 | 0:29:23 | |
to make reasonable adjustments to
the requirements of a job to cater | 0:29:23 | 0:29:29 | |
to religious beliefs. But it pointed
out that the extent of the duty is | 0:29:29 | 0:29:33 | |
context specific and it added that
to some extent this would release | 0:29:33 | 0:29:39 | |
depends on issues of practicability.
And the court said much better | 0:29:39 | 0:29:44 | |
resolve those in employment tribunal
proceedings in the context of a | 0:29:44 | 0:29:49 | |
particular case than by an overall
declaration of the law, in either | 0:29:49 | 0:29:55 | |
judicial review or, as I would
suggest, the present bill. My Lords, | 0:29:55 | 0:30:01 | |
the third point is this, the Royal
College of Midwives and the British | 0:30:01 | 0:30:08 | |
pregnancy advisory service both
intervened in the Supreme Court | 0:30:08 | 0:30:13 | |
proceedings and argued against the
petitioners that to give a broad | 0:30:13 | 0:30:17 | |
scope to the right of conscientious
objection would put at risk the | 0:30:17 | 0:30:22 | |
provision of a safe and accessible
abortion servers and furthermore | 0:30:22 | 0:30:27 | |
might encourage other employers to
adopt the policy of refusing to | 0:30:27 | 0:30:32 | |
employ anyone who has any
conscientious objection to abortion. | 0:30:32 | 0:30:38 | |
This would reduce the job
opportunities available for highly | 0:30:38 | 0:30:43 | |
skilled and experienced midwives,
perhaps with less -- with less | 0:30:43 | 0:30:47 | |
extensive objections than these
particular petitions. In short, the | 0:30:47 | 0:30:52 | |
bill I suggest takes altogether too
absolute and extreme a position and | 0:30:52 | 0:30:58 | |
it would be unwise to adopt it. I
add this finally, to invoke in | 0:30:58 | 0:31:06 | |
support of this bill, as the noble
Baroness did in her Haas magazine | 0:31:06 | 0:31:12 | |
article and has again done today,
the appalling treatment of | 0:31:12 | 0:31:18 | |
conscientious objectors who resisted
fighting in the First World War, I | 0:31:18 | 0:31:22 | |
suggest it is really over the top,
rather like the bill itself is lax, | 0:31:22 | 0:31:27 | |
I suggest, the balanced approach
that these present issues deserve. I | 0:31:27 | 0:31:33 | |
am against this bill. -- rather like
the bill itself, its lacks. | 0:31:33 | 0:31:38 | |
As a precursor to this debate I read
with great interest the article from | 0:31:38 | 0:31:42 | |
the baronet in the House journal.
Let me first declare my interest, I | 0:31:42 | 0:31:47 | |
am a member of the all-party, and
regroup for choice at the end of | 0:31:47 | 0:31:51 | |
life. I am concerned about the
application of bill, especially as | 0:31:51 | 0:31:58 | |
existing medical and legal
regulations work well, striking a | 0:31:58 | 0:32:01 | |
sensible balance between allowing
health care professionals to | 0:32:01 | 0:32:05 | |
conscientiously object without
abandoning the patients and causing | 0:32:05 | 0:32:09 | |
distress to patients and families.
My Lords, I support the rights of | 0:32:09 | 0:32:13 | |
health care professionals to refuse
to participate in a hands-on | 0:32:13 | 0:32:20 | |
capacity in certain medical
activities and I'm confident that | 0:32:20 | 0:32:23 | |
this right to conscientious
objection is well established within | 0:32:23 | 0:32:25 | |
current medical laws on protocols.
I am very concerned that this bill, | 0:32:25 | 0:32:31 | |
which aims to expand existing
sensible provisions unclench inches | 0:32:31 | 0:32:35 | |
objection, as it relates to the
withdrawal of life-sustaining | 0:32:35 | 0:32:39 | |
treatment, will have a detrimental
effect on comprehensive person | 0:32:39 | 0:32:45 | |
centred care currently provided by
multidisciplinary teams. In some | 0:32:45 | 0:32:51 | |
situation I fear the bill, if
enacted, could lead to patients | 0:32:51 | 0:32:54 | |
being abandoned by health care
professionals. | 0:32:54 | 0:32:57 | |
This could also have the berry
detrimental impact on the families | 0:32:57 | 0:33:00 | |
and loved ones of patients
approaching the end of life at what | 0:33:00 | 0:33:04 | |
is already a difficult time.
My Lords, this bill would undermine | 0:33:04 | 0:33:08 | |
the medical capacity act of 2005,
existing legal provisions and | 0:33:08 | 0:33:14 | |
guidance on conscientious objection
strike the right balance between | 0:33:14 | 0:33:19 | |
respect the health care
professionals' belief and the best | 0:33:19 | 0:33:23 | |
interests of the patients.
As an example, this bill threatens | 0:33:23 | 0:33:26 | |
to undermine the entire degree is
double provisions of the Mental | 0:33:26 | 0:33:30 | |
Capacity Act code of practice 2007,
which is very clear that health care | 0:33:30 | 0:33:37 | |
professionals do not have to do
something that goes against their | 0:33:37 | 0:33:40 | |
beliefs, but they must not simply
abandon patients or cause their care | 0:33:40 | 0:33:46 | |
to suffer and should refer their
patients to another colleague | 0:33:46 | 0:33:50 | |
willing to participate.
I am not aware that the national | 0:33:50 | 0:33:53 | |
mandatory capacity Forum has
expressed a view on this particular | 0:33:53 | 0:33:58 | |
bill but I hope that organisations
with interest in and advancing | 0:33:58 | 0:34:02 | |
patients' capacity to make decisions
over their health and care will | 0:34:02 | 0:34:07 | |
ensure that conscientious objection
should not become a limit on | 0:34:07 | 0:34:11 | |
patients' ability to decide for
themselves. | 0:34:11 | 0:34:14 | |
My Lords, this bill would negatively
impact patients and their families. | 0:34:14 | 0:34:19 | |
Let me explain. Providing care for
those approaching the end of life | 0:34:19 | 0:34:23 | |
care can be challenging for health
care professionals, but the | 0:34:23 | 0:34:27 | |
well-being of the patients must be
of the first concern. If the patient | 0:34:27 | 0:34:31 | |
has capacity and wishes to do so,
they are entitled to make their own | 0:34:31 | 0:34:36 | |
decisions about consent or refusal
of treatment and should be supported | 0:34:36 | 0:34:39 | |
to do so. Equally, under the Mental
Capacity Act 2005 in England and | 0:34:39 | 0:34:46 | |
Wales, if the patient has decision
to refuse treatment or appointed a | 0:34:46 | 0:34:52 | |
lasting power of attorney for health
and welfare, their decision or that | 0:34:52 | 0:34:57 | |
of their attorney must be respected.
Those decision should be respected | 0:34:57 | 0:35:00 | |
in a timely manner. It would be
completely unacceptable for a | 0:35:00 | 0:35:06 | |
patient approaching the end of life
to have to continue treatment they | 0:35:06 | 0:35:09 | |
did not want whilst awaiting
transfer to palliative care or | 0:35:09 | 0:35:14 | |
another team of health care
professionals that did not object to | 0:35:14 | 0:35:16 | |
their decision. It would be
completely unacceptable for the | 0:35:16 | 0:35:20 | |
patient's family to have to watch
them receiving unwanted treatment, | 0:35:20 | 0:35:25 | |
and I'm afraid that could be the
implication of this particular bill. | 0:35:25 | 0:35:28 | |
Let me site a couple of examples
relating to this particular | 0:35:28 | 0:35:32 | |
argument. This case relates to Paul
Briggs ant Mrs N, the decision on | 0:35:32 | 0:35:43 | |
withdrawing treatment to people in a
persistent vegetative or minimally | 0:35:43 | 0:35:46 | |
conscious state. In several of these
cases such as that of Paul Briggs, | 0:35:46 | 0:35:55 | |
the policeman who suffered a brain
injury in a car crash on his way to | 0:35:55 | 0:36:00 | |
work, and Mrs N, a woman who was in
a minimally conscious state over a | 0:36:00 | 0:36:04 | |
period of many years, due to
advanced multiple sclerosis, it has | 0:36:04 | 0:36:09 | |
taken huge efforts by their family
members, sometimes in the face of | 0:36:09 | 0:36:14 | |
objection by professionals, to get
their cases heard by the Court of | 0:36:14 | 0:36:19 | |
Protection. Mrs N's daughter heard
the judge, -- told the judge, who | 0:36:19 | 0:36:24 | |
eventually heard the case, I cannot
emphasise enough how the indignity | 0:36:24 | 0:36:29 | |
of her current execs and says the
greatest contradiction to how she | 0:36:29 | 0:36:33 | |
lived her life, and if she was able
to express this then she would. -- | 0:36:33 | 0:36:39 | |
the indignity of her current
existence. Paul Briggs' wife wrote, | 0:36:39 | 0:36:44 | |
and echoes, I love my husband but he
is dead in all but his body. I don't | 0:36:44 | 0:36:49 | |
know when I will ever laying him to
rest in peace. That is a limbo | 0:36:49 | 0:36:53 | |
nobody should be in. It must have
been incredibly difficult for them | 0:36:53 | 0:36:58 | |
to see their loved ones suffer over
a period of years, receiving | 0:36:58 | 0:37:02 | |
treatment they did not believe was
wanted. Even where the Court of | 0:37:02 | 0:37:08 | |
Protection has decided that
withdrawing treatment is in the best | 0:37:08 | 0:37:11 | |
interest of the patient, some
families have them struggle to find | 0:37:11 | 0:37:16 | |
health care facilities where staff
members do not conscientiously | 0:37:16 | 0:37:18 | |
object to that particular decision.
Let me conclude existing rules allow | 0:37:18 | 0:37:25 | |
for any health care professional to
conscientiously object to withdraw | 0:37:25 | 0:37:28 | |
life-sustaining treatment as long as
they find another health care | 0:37:28 | 0:37:31 | |
professional to take over the care
of the patient. I fear the bill | 0:37:31 | 0:37:34 | |
would cause additional unnecessary
strain at an already distressing | 0:37:34 | 0:37:40 | |
time for people at the end of life,
and their families. In doing so it | 0:37:40 | 0:37:45 | |
would encounter the principles of
patient centred care. I hope the | 0:37:45 | 0:37:50 | |
bill is substantially amended at a
committee stage. | 0:37:50 | 0:37:55 | |
My Lords, yesterday the River
restaurant downstairs helped us to | 0:37:55 | 0:38:00 | |
celebrate Burns night all day. I
thoroughly enjoyed the Scotch broth | 0:38:00 | 0:38:06 | |
at lunchtime, but I resisted the
main course as I was eating out in | 0:38:06 | 0:38:10 | |
the evening. I even resisted the
whiskey bread-and-butter pudding. | 0:38:10 | 0:38:14 | |
The main course which I resisted was
vegetarian haggis, celebrating Burns | 0:38:14 | 0:38:23 | |
in a way which respected the
consciences of those who didn't want | 0:38:23 | 0:38:25 | |
to eat meat. A very proper and good
thing to do. No legal requirement to | 0:38:25 | 0:38:34 | |
provide vegetarian haggis, but
welcome to many, and I think I would | 0:38:34 | 0:38:38 | |
have enjoyed it. Clearly Lord
Cormack did enjoy it. Yesterday was | 0:38:38 | 0:38:45 | |
not just Burns night, it was also,
for church people, the Festival of | 0:38:45 | 0:38:50 | |
the conversion of Saint Paul. In
simple's teaching he is very strong | 0:38:50 | 0:38:56 | |
in asserting that Christians,
although they are free to make many | 0:38:56 | 0:39:02 | |
decisions morally, must always
respected the conscience of those | 0:39:02 | 0:39:06 | |
who are weaker, those with a tender
conscience -- in St Paul's teaching. | 0:39:06 | 0:39:13 | |
That is an absolute requirement in
the Christian faith, that those | 0:39:13 | 0:39:17 | |
whose consciences are more tender
all week than our own must be | 0:39:17 | 0:39:21 | |
respected and not forced to go
against those consciences. We have | 0:39:21 | 0:39:26 | |
the same teaching in other areas of
religion as well. In real testament | 0:39:26 | 0:39:32 | |
it is very clear that the vulnerable
and the weak are to be supported and | 0:39:32 | 0:39:36 | |
helped. In the teaching of Jesus he
criticises those leaders who lay | 0:39:36 | 0:39:43 | |
burdens too heavy for people to bear
upon ordinary folk. As we have seen | 0:39:43 | 0:39:50 | |
the history of the world since the
time of Christ, and particularly our | 0:39:50 | 0:39:55 | |
own country, we have seen, I
believe, do a great deal of | 0:39:55 | 0:40:00 | |
influence from the Judaeo-Christian
tradition, the development of free | 0:40:00 | 0:40:06 | |
societies, of what we now tend to
call liberal democracies. | 0:40:06 | 0:40:10 | |
And in those societies there has
always been a great deal of | 0:40:10 | 0:40:15 | |
attention paid to the rights of
conscience, even though they go | 0:40:15 | 0:40:22 | |
beyond and are more tender and
sensitive than the views of many | 0:40:22 | 0:40:25 | |
other people. Every free society
respects the rights of conscience to | 0:40:25 | 0:40:30 | |
a great extent, and we have heard
some of that already in this debate. | 0:40:30 | 0:40:35 | |
The societies which restrict the
rights of conscience tend to be | 0:40:35 | 0:40:39 | |
those which are tyrannical, the
extreme left or the extreme right of | 0:40:39 | 0:40:46 | |
politics is where we find conscience
restricted. In free societies a | 0:40:46 | 0:40:52 | |
great deal of tolerance is given to
those with conscientious objections | 0:40:52 | 0:40:58 | |
to all sorts of things. Now, this is
not just a matter of religion. | 0:40:58 | 0:41:05 | |
Conscience is a very, very deep part
of what it means to be human. It is | 0:41:05 | 0:41:10 | |
not just religious rights we are
talking about, it is very deep human | 0:41:10 | 0:41:15 | |
rights that people should not be
forced to go against what they | 0:41:15 | 0:41:18 | |
believe to be right or wrong. In
this particular bill, which I | 0:41:18 | 0:41:26 | |
support strongly and look forward to
seeing further debated and possibly | 0:41:26 | 0:41:33 | |
amended, it recognises some changes
since the Abortion Act. Most | 0:41:33 | 0:41:38 | |
abortions now have far more
involvement from nurses and | 0:41:38 | 0:41:42 | |
pharmacists than they did in the
early days. Methods of doing | 0:41:42 | 0:41:47 | |
abortions have changed. I believe it
is right to extend the conscience | 0:41:47 | 0:41:53 | |
clause, for example, to pharmacists
since their involvement is greater | 0:41:53 | 0:41:57 | |
than it used to be. We need as a
society to find ways to modify the | 0:41:57 | 0:42:08 | |
law as it was set out in 67, nudges
to affirm the conscience clause | 0:42:08 | 0:42:15 | |
there. I believe this is a matter of
public concern. -- not just to | 0:42:15 | 0:42:20 | |
affirm the conscience clause there.
It is a matter for public policy and | 0:42:20 | 0:42:24 | |
public debate. If the 67 act needs
to be clarified, that should be done | 0:42:24 | 0:42:30 | |
not just in courts but in Parliament
on behalf of the people of the | 0:42:30 | 0:42:35 | |
country.
If the 67 act is breathing in some | 0:42:35 | 0:42:38 | |
way unsatisfactory in that some
people's consciences are not being | 0:42:38 | 0:42:46 | |
allowed then we need to do something
to modify it, not to reduce the | 0:42:46 | 0:42:50 | |
possibility of abortion, not to
reduce people's freedom to seek | 0:42:50 | 0:42:55 | |
medical treatment, which I want to
underscore, but to allow those which | 0:42:55 | 0:43:01 | |
have a tender conscience to exercise
that conscience. My Lords, I support | 0:43:01 | 0:43:04 | |
this bill. | 0:43:04 | 0:43:09 | |
My Lords, I am pleased to follow the
reverend who spoke about the burden | 0:43:09 | 0:43:14 | |
to bear. I would point out that
sometimes when you are member of a | 0:43:14 | 0:43:18 | |
minority, it is a burden that you
must bear. Indeed, it is a burden | 0:43:18 | 0:43:24 | |
that are sometimes reinforced by | 0:43:24 | 0:43:34 | |
religious and beliefs. I respect and
defend the right of religion and | 0:43:35 | 0:43:38 | |
belief that freedom but I do not, my
Lords, respect the rights to impose | 0:43:38 | 0:43:41 | |
religion on others who do not share
them and therefore diminish the | 0:43:41 | 0:43:43 | |
rights of others. I rise to speak
against this bill which I find | 0:43:43 | 0:43:46 | |
deeply worrying and troubling. It is
an attempt to rewrite laws which | 0:43:46 | 0:43:50 | |
respect conscientious objection and
which, my Lords, have been working | 0:43:50 | 0:43:54 | |
well. Working well, my lords. It is
an attempt to rewrite laws in light | 0:43:54 | 0:43:59 | |
of the 2014 Supreme Court judgment,
delivered by the noble Lady Hale and | 0:43:59 | 0:44:06 | |
tears of greater Glasgow health
board in Mary Doogan versus law. I | 0:44:06 | 0:44:15 | |
believe if this bill was to become
law, we would seek on changes | 0:44:15 | 0:44:19 | |
objections for Waverley against the
wise and learned words and judgment | 0:44:19 | 0:44:25 | |
of the deal as to make services such
as IVF treatment come end of life | 0:44:25 | 0:44:30 | |
care treatment and abortion is
difficult to excess and sustain | 0:44:30 | 0:44:34 | |
nationally. -- access. And we would
witness, my Lords, the curtailing of | 0:44:34 | 0:44:40 | |
the legal choices and options of
others. There have been many changes | 0:44:40 | 0:44:45 | |
in the last 50 years and
particularly since the 1967 Abortion | 0:44:45 | 0:44:49 | |
Act. Positive changes that have been
vigorously fought for and vigorously | 0:44:49 | 0:44:56 | |
fought against. Women's rights, the
right to abortion, fertility | 0:44:56 | 0:45:02 | |
treatment, IVF for married,
non-married and same-sex partners. | 0:45:02 | 0:45:05 | |
Equality and rights for LGBT people,
rights and the qualities which some | 0:45:05 | 0:45:10 | |
people, organisations and religious
bodies still refuse to accept and | 0:45:10 | 0:45:15 | |
still do their best to hold back.
Indeed, my Lords, a woman's right to | 0:45:15 | 0:45:21 | |
choose is shamefully denied in
Northern Ireland and same-sex | 0:45:21 | 0:45:24 | |
marriage is still not available, and
all of this is connected, my Lords, | 0:45:24 | 0:45:29 | |
as I have said, I defend the right
to freedom of religion or belief but | 0:45:29 | 0:45:33 | |
not the right to impose it, whereby
some posing you reduce the rights of | 0:45:33 | 0:45:37 | |
others. I sure the deep concerns of
Doctors for choice in UK, who write | 0:45:37 | 0:45:43 | |
that they support the current legal
provisions that allow medical | 0:45:43 | 0:45:47 | |
practitioners to opt out of
providing treatment that conflicts | 0:45:47 | 0:45:50 | |
with the personal and religious
beliefs. But that extending the | 0:45:50 | 0:45:55 | |
activities to which a health care
professional could claim a | 0:45:55 | 0:45:59 | |
conscientious objection from,
hands-on treatment to any | 0:45:59 | 0:46:06 | |
supervision, delegation, planning or
supporting staff, in respect of that | 0:46:06 | 0:46:10 | |
activity, could have a huge the
adverse effect on health care | 0:46:10 | 0:46:14 | |
provision in the United Kingdom. The
British pregnancy advisory service | 0:46:14 | 0:46:19 | |
are of the same opinion. They also
believe, my Lords, that by extending | 0:46:19 | 0:46:25 | |
conscientious objection in these
ways, again, as outlined by the | 0:46:25 | 0:46:28 | |
noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown
of Eaton-under-Heywood, this could | 0:46:28 | 0:46:35 | |
cause a staffing crisis, in
particular areas of health and this | 0:46:35 | 0:46:38 | |
is particularly true in the National
Health Service, where a hospital | 0:46:38 | 0:46:43 | |
wards and disciplines simultaneously
cover a number of procedures and | 0:46:43 | 0:46:50 | |
conditions. I thank these
organisations and particularly the | 0:46:50 | 0:46:52 | |
dignity in dying, who maintain that
as an unintended consequence, the | 0:46:52 | 0:46:57 | |
bill could undermine that might
undermine the principle of person | 0:46:57 | 0:47:02 | |
centred end of life care and drive a
wedge between health care | 0:47:02 | 0:47:07 | |
professionals and their patients.
The bill would allow any health care | 0:47:07 | 0:47:12 | |
professional, any health care
professionals, my Lords, to refuse | 0:47:12 | 0:47:16 | |
to participate in the supervision,
delegation, planning or support of | 0:47:16 | 0:47:22 | |
any activity which they do not
agree. And nothing any bill as had | 0:47:22 | 0:47:27 | |
been set earlier but it is worth
repeating, would obligingly | 0:47:27 | 0:47:30 | |
objecting health care professional
to develop that patient's care to | 0:47:30 | 0:47:35 | |
another. For example, if someone
with advanced care has the | 0:47:35 | 0:47:41 | |
artificial nutrition and hydration
water drawn, a health care | 0:47:41 | 0:47:44 | |
professional could reject to
providing basic care. They could | 0:47:44 | 0:47:49 | |
include providing Mulcaire, managing
a syringe driver for pain relief and | 0:47:49 | 0:47:54 | |
the alleviation of terminal
agitation, prevention of pressure | 0:47:54 | 0:47:59 | |
wins, coordinating spiritual and
family support and, if appropriate, | 0:47:59 | 0:48:04 | |
arranging to discharge the person to
die at home or in a hospice. My | 0:48:04 | 0:48:11 | |
Lords, having witnessed my own
partner died of cancer in the Royal | 0:48:11 | 0:48:16 | |
Marsden Hospital, and in light of
the debate yesterday, led by the | 0:48:16 | 0:48:19 | |
noble and reaches Baroness Jay
Howell, for the reasons outlined | 0:48:19 | 0:48:26 | |
today and for many others, I cannot
and will not support this bill. My | 0:48:26 | 0:48:34 | |
Lords, I should probably declare an
interest as an only fellow of the | 0:48:34 | 0:48:39 | |
Royal College of Obstetricians and
Gynaecologists, and they have also | 0:48:39 | 0:48:42 | |
had some responsibility in
connection with the other matters | 0:48:42 | 0:48:48 | |
that are referred to in this bill.
My Lords, the simple analysis, as | 0:48:48 | 0:48:54 | |
far as I am concerned, is this... If
a person has an objection, let me | 0:48:54 | 0:49:00 | |
take it to abortion, for example,
someone objecting to abortion thinks | 0:49:00 | 0:49:04 | |
that it is wrong to carry out an
abortion. Generally speaking, there | 0:49:04 | 0:49:10 | |
is, of course, a provision limiting
that in connection where the life of | 0:49:10 | 0:49:17 | |
the mother is at risk. The present
law does not allow conscientious | 0:49:17 | 0:49:24 | |
objection in that respect, and that,
I believe, is a very general | 0:49:24 | 0:49:33 | |
realisation of what they
conscientious objection will be. But | 0:49:33 | 0:49:36 | |
the basic conscientious objection is
that it is wrong in the general case | 0:49:36 | 0:49:40 | |
to perform an abortion. And the
question is, to what extent only | 0:49:40 | 0:49:47 | |
should be required to do what is
contrary to one's belief. To do what | 0:49:47 | 0:49:57 | |
one's conscience requires that they
believe to be wrong. Therefore, in | 0:49:57 | 0:50:04 | |
my submission to your Lordships, it
would be right that they are | 0:50:04 | 0:50:09 | |
protected from doing what they think
is wrong. Now, of course, I am very | 0:50:09 | 0:50:14 | |
familiar with the judgment of the
Supreme Court and Baroness Hale, | 0:50:14 | 0:50:19 | |
whom I respect particularly because
of various reasons, which I will not | 0:50:19 | 0:50:27 | |
go into at the moment, but I respect
her judgment very much indeed. And | 0:50:27 | 0:50:33 | |
it is a judgment on the Act of
Parliament as it was. The Scottish | 0:50:33 | 0:50:40 | |
court, the judges of the Court of
Session, decided that the wider | 0:50:40 | 0:50:46 | |
interpretation was possible and they
were in favour of Mary Doogan and | 0:50:46 | 0:50:56 | |
the other lady. The situation was a
particular one that these ladies had | 0:50:56 | 0:51:03 | |
been in the health service for a
considerable time and they were | 0:51:03 | 0:51:07 | |
happy to do what they were doing and
they did not have to do anything | 0:51:07 | 0:51:11 | |
that they thought was wrong. The
arrangements were changed and then | 0:51:11 | 0:51:17 | |
they were required to do something
that they thought was wrong, and | 0:51:17 | 0:51:22 | |
that was where the matter came into
the courts. Now, my Lords, I have | 0:51:22 | 0:51:28 | |
been in correspondence with the
doctors for choice, the kindly sent | 0:51:28 | 0:51:32 | |
me an e-mail explaining what they
thought, and it is ask more detail | 0:51:32 | 0:51:40 | |
of what they were thinking. And what
it comes to is this, that they | 0:51:40 | 0:51:46 | |
believe that the National Health
Service depends, to a substantial | 0:51:46 | 0:51:52 | |
extent, on people doing what they
believe to be wrong. Now, I really | 0:51:52 | 0:51:56 | |
find it very hard to see that that
can be right. On the other hand, I | 0:51:56 | 0:52:03 | |
do not think and the minister might
be able to tell us, I do not think | 0:52:03 | 0:52:06 | |
that the amount of conscientious
objection to these various items | 0:52:06 | 0:52:11 | |
referred to in this bill is very
large. The numbers, I do not think, | 0:52:11 | 0:52:17 | |
are all that large. But let us
assume that there is a substantial | 0:52:17 | 0:52:22 | |
number, then what they are saying is
that it is necessary under present | 0:52:22 | 0:52:26 | |
circumstances to depend on people
who are serving in the health | 0:52:26 | 0:52:32 | |
service to do what they think is
wrong. So, as far as I am concerned, | 0:52:32 | 0:52:37 | |
that is precisely what the
conscientious laws of this country, | 0:52:37 | 0:52:42 | |
for many years, have been, that it
is not necessary and not right to | 0:52:42 | 0:52:47 | |
force people as part of their
employment to do what they believe | 0:52:47 | 0:52:50 | |
to be wrong. Now, it has been said
and many of your Lordships have | 0:52:50 | 0:52:57 | |
mentioned this, that, of course, it
will cause some problems for some | 0:52:57 | 0:53:03 | |
people. The point I think that we
must make is that the obligation to | 0:53:03 | 0:53:08 | |
provide these services is not only
employee, but on the health service | 0:53:08 | 0:53:14 | |
itself, and therefore, we have the
responsibility of making the | 0:53:14 | 0:53:19 | |
necessary arrangements to
accommodate the views of those who | 0:53:19 | 0:53:24 | |
think that these particular
activities are wrong. And they do | 0:53:24 | 0:53:27 | |
not believe it is right that the
health service or, indeed any other | 0:53:27 | 0:53:32 | |
service, should rely to a
substantial extent for its success | 0:53:32 | 0:53:38 | |
on requiring any of its employees to
do what these employees think to be | 0:53:38 | 0:53:43 | |
wrong. For that reason, I support
this bill. Of course, the bill the | 0:53:43 | 0:53:50 | |
subject, the detail of it, to
amendment if necessary, but as far | 0:53:50 | 0:53:54 | |
as I can see, the actual phraseology
is not far from that which was | 0:53:54 | 0:53:59 | |
adopted by the Court of session in
Scotland, that was the | 0:53:59 | 0:54:02 | |
interpretation that they thought
should be placed on the Act of | 0:54:02 | 0:54:05 | |
Parliament as it was.
I oppose this bill, but it was great | 0:54:05 | 0:54:14 | |
to have the article which has been
referred to in the House magazine by | 0:54:14 | 0:54:17 | |
the noble lady, to provide the
background as to how she got to this | 0:54:17 | 0:54:23 | |
point. As well as having the
excellent Lords library note which | 0:54:23 | 0:54:28 | |
expanded on some of the references
that the article mentioned, in | 0:54:28 | 0:54:33 | |
particular, the Supreme Court
judgment, all of which I will | 0:54:33 | 0:54:35 | |
shortly come to. One might ask as
they do more robustly in the House | 0:54:35 | 0:54:43 | |
of Commons, on private bills, what
is the need for this particular | 0:54:43 | 0:54:46 | |
private bill legislation? Given that
the first appearance we saw of it, a | 0:54:46 | 0:54:55 | |
similar Help to Buy to this was in
June 2015 when it only had time for | 0:54:55 | 0:55:01 | |
a first reading. -- bill. I wondered
if there was need for this | 0:55:01 | 0:55:07 | |
legislation in order to meet popular
demand and contempt that the current | 0:55:07 | 0:55:10 | |
law or if it was created by a small
group of the well-intentioned for | 0:55:10 | 0:55:14 | |
the betterment of mankind? I believe
that I have here is that the | 0:55:14 | 0:55:21 | |
direction is top-down and that there
may not be the popular clamour for | 0:55:21 | 0:55:26 | |
more statute law to do with what is
before us. As we have been made | 0:55:26 | 0:55:31 | |
aware in meetings and briefings we
have received, the four councils | 0:55:31 | 0:55:35 | |
referred to both the registers in
clauses one and two all have their | 0:55:35 | 0:55:41 | |
own procedures for dealing with
conscientious objection when it is | 0:55:41 | 0:55:44 | |
not covered by statute law, and I
was not sure if Lord Mackay of | 0:55:44 | 0:55:50 | |
Clashfern was fully aware of that,
and that is why I mention it now in | 0:55:50 | 0:55:54 | |
more detail. These are slight
variations but cover broadly the | 0:55:54 | 0:55:59 | |
same areas, particularly in passing
on the other that one individual can | 0:55:59 | 0:56:04 | |
reject for reasons of conscience the
particular needs of each of these | 0:56:04 | 0:56:09 | |
four councils. I noticed the one
major change to the early 2015 Bill, | 0:56:09 | 0:56:16 | |
there is a new addition in clause
1.2 p to the pharmaceutical Council. | 0:56:16 | 0:56:22 | |
That edition adds to the numbers
that could be directly or indirectly | 0:56:22 | 0:56:25 | |
affected by this bill by the 53,000
members on that register. I would | 0:56:25 | 0:56:33 | |
therefore have thought that at least
some sort of proper consultation but | 0:56:33 | 0:56:36 | |
that council should have taken place
before incorporating them into this | 0:56:36 | 0:56:41 | |
bill, but understand that that has
not happened, that is very much from | 0:56:41 | 0:56:44 | |
the top down. It also may have been
thought that the pharmacist could | 0:56:44 | 0:56:49 | |
become a major channel for the
distribution of medical abortion | 0:56:49 | 0:56:54 | |
pills and the noble baroness in her
speech made the connection. But as I | 0:56:54 | 0:56:59 | |
explained, without any further
statute law, the pharmaceutical | 0:56:59 | 0:57:01 | |
Council already have a perfectly
good provision in place for | 0:57:01 | 0:57:07 | |
conscientious objection by the
members, which is framed for the | 0:57:07 | 0:57:12 | |
particular professional
circumstances. To try to put all of | 0:57:12 | 0:57:17 | |
this council is under a common
straitjacket of statute provisions | 0:57:17 | 0:57:21 | |
would be counter-productive and
require extensive, continuing legal | 0:57:21 | 0:57:25 | |
dispute on the interpretation. I
believe that the deal's Supreme | 0:57:25 | 0:57:33 | |
Court judgment, already mentioned,
particularly in paragraph 38 and her | 0:57:33 | 0:57:38 | |
interpretation of the word
participate is a very good addition | 0:57:38 | 0:57:41 | |
of the existing position as the
water suitable for statute law and | 0:57:41 | 0:57:46 | |
what can be fairly achieved by
individual guidelines, which, as the | 0:57:46 | 0:57:50 | |
noble lord, Lord Brown, said Candy
context specific or decided by | 0:57:50 | 0:57:58 | |
unemployment tribunal. Also from a
practical point of view we have | 0:57:58 | 0:58:01 | |
learned from the various submissions
we received on this bill from | 0:58:01 | 0:58:04 | |
organisations, it is a very complex
medical procedures and specialised | 0:58:04 | 0:58:08 | |
man's. How much uncertainty this
bill would cause in the day-to-day | 0:58:08 | 0:58:14 | |
running of various organisations.
Malia never been quite sure what | 0:58:14 | 0:58:19 | |
staff are going to be available to
meet ever-changing needs in the | 0:58:19 | 0:58:24 | |
process of the patient wants to
suffer. In the article I mentioned | 0:58:24 | 0:58:27 | |
at the beginning and end the debate
today, the apparently simple phrase, | 0:58:27 | 0:58:34 | |
the taking of human life occurred
twice, which most of us hear no is | 0:58:34 | 0:58:37 | |
the beginning of divergent views in
the fields we are addressing today. | 0:58:37 | 0:58:43 | |
And I believe the noble Baroness,
Baroness O'Loan, used the same | 0:58:43 | 0:58:48 | |
phrase in her speech today. | 0:58:48 | 0:58:54 | |
For example, when exactly did human
life start? When is withdrawing | 0:58:54 | 0:58:59 | |
life-saving treatment or turning off
a machine justifiable? Many more | 0:58:59 | 0:59:02 | |
questions are baked... Begged by
that simple phrase. My Lords, I hope | 0:59:02 | 0:59:09 | |
I have highlighted some of the
potential difficulties of this bill, | 0:59:09 | 0:59:13 | |
which I oppose.
My Lords, I congratulate the | 0:59:13 | 0:59:21 | |
baroness on bringing forward this
bill, which sheds a welcome | 0:59:21 | 0:59:26 | |
spotlight on a very important area.
If I can be very brief, I think most | 0:59:26 | 0:59:32 | |
of the main arguments have been
made. I start from the position that | 0:59:32 | 0:59:36 | |
nobody should be obliged to
participate in a procedure to which | 0:59:36 | 0:59:41 | |
they have a conscientious objection.
Lord Mackay has already spoken with | 0:59:41 | 0:59:45 | |
his usual eloquence and power on
that aspect. The issue, however, | 0:59:45 | 0:59:51 | |
turns on what you mean by
participation. The draft bill is | 0:59:51 | 0:59:56 | |
very wide indeed on that subject and
Lord Cashman has referred to it | 0:59:56 | 1:00:02 | |
twice. Let me read the keywords
again. Participating in an activity | 1:00:02 | 1:00:08 | |
includes any supervision,
delegation, planning or supporting | 1:00:08 | 1:00:16 | |
of staff in respect of that
activity. That is very, very wide, | 1:00:16 | 1:00:22 | |
as Baroness Young pointed out. For
my part, I find myself in agreement | 1:00:22 | 1:00:27 | |
with Lady Hale's judgment that it is
unlikely that Parliament originally | 1:00:27 | 1:00:32 | |
intended to include a host of
ancillary and administrative and | 1:00:32 | 1:00:36 | |
managerial matters in the coverage
of this bill. On the other hand, I | 1:00:36 | 1:00:41 | |
think she went too far in confining
the application to those taking part | 1:00:41 | 1:00:49 | |
in, quote, a hands-on capacity. That
seems to me to be far too narrow. I | 1:00:49 | 1:00:54 | |
hope that in further discussions,
perhaps that committee stage, Common | 1:00:54 | 1:00:58 | |
cause can be found.
My Lords, the situation in respect | 1:00:58 | 1:01:05 | |
of the withdrawal of life-saving
treatment, life-sustaining | 1:01:05 | 1:01:08 | |
treatment, appears to be different
in respect of nurses who cannot | 1:01:08 | 1:01:12 | |
lawfully raise a conscientious
objection. Their professional code, | 1:01:12 | 1:01:16 | |
as I understand it, calls for them
to arrange free suitably qualified | 1:01:16 | 1:01:20 | |
colleague to take over.
This, of course, is a hugely | 1:01:20 | 1:01:26 | |
sensitive area. As a layman, it
seems to me that the present formula | 1:01:26 | 1:01:31 | |
is about the right balance in this
field. To extend the widest | 1:01:31 | 1:01:36 | |
definition in this bill to issues
arising from life support seems to | 1:01:36 | 1:01:40 | |
need to be a step too far.
My Lords, for my part this bill | 1:01:40 | 1:01:47 | |
would needs and amendments before I
could support it. | 1:01:47 | 1:01:52 | |
I speak as a layman and someone who
feels it a privilege, and indeed | 1:01:52 | 1:01:57 | |
refreshing, to be able to take part
in such a debate, nonpartisan and | 1:01:57 | 1:02:02 | |
with so many experts leading
lawyers, leading medics in this | 1:02:02 | 1:02:07 | |
field. It is indeed the House of
Lords at its best. | 1:02:07 | 1:02:11 | |
But I put on record immediately that
I am not with the noble lady Lady | 1:02:11 | 1:02:21 | |
O'Loan in terms of abortion, which I
see is justified in terms of social | 1:02:21 | 1:02:28 | |
concerns, but I agree with her
conscientious objection. For me, the | 1:02:28 | 1:02:33 | |
recognition of a conscientious
objection is something which is the | 1:02:33 | 1:02:37 | |
sign of a civilised society as
against a non-civilised society. And | 1:02:37 | 1:02:44 | |
my presumption always would be in
favour of looking at conscientious | 1:02:44 | 1:02:49 | |
objection. The problem here, of
course, as I think my noble friend | 1:02:49 | 1:02:54 | |
Lady Young says, if one agrees that
the Court of sessions was correct | 1:02:54 | 1:03:00 | |
and the current law needs to be
extended, as I do, where does one | 1:03:00 | 1:03:04 | |
draw the line? How does one find
some position of defining what is | 1:03:04 | 1:03:14 | |
participation, that participation
can be extended so far as to be | 1:03:14 | 1:03:17 | |
ridiculous. There is, of course,
much learning both in respect of | 1:03:17 | 1:03:24 | |
participation and in respect of
remoteness. I think many people | 1:03:24 | 1:03:27 | |
would agree on grounds of
conscientious objection that we need | 1:03:27 | 1:03:32 | |
to go beyond a very narrow
interpretation which a number of | 1:03:32 | 1:03:35 | |
colleagues here have put on the
relevant clause of the 1967 act. | 1:03:35 | 1:03:44 | |
Yes, to extend, but also perhaps by
amendment in committee to say how | 1:03:44 | 1:03:49 | |
one defines the extent of
participation so as not to make it | 1:03:49 | 1:03:57 | |
absolutely ridiculous. The
importance of freedom of conscience | 1:03:57 | 1:03:59 | |
is recognised in so many
international instruments. I know | 1:03:59 | 1:04:05 | |
that the noble lady Lady O'Loan has
gone through a number from the | 1:04:05 | 1:04:10 | |
universal declaration, articles one
and 18, which is accurate in article | 1:04:10 | 1:04:15 | |
nine of the European Convention on
human rights. I may say, for the | 1:04:15 | 1:04:20 | |
rest of the week I have been in
Strasbourg sitting on the legal | 1:04:20 | 1:04:25 | |
affairs and human rights committee
and indeed on the committee | 1:04:25 | 1:04:29 | |
responsible for the selection of
judges to the court. As Lady O'Loan | 1:04:29 | 1:04:34 | |
said, our own Equalities Act has
religion and belief as protected | 1:04:34 | 1:04:39 | |
characteristics and includes a
reference to, quotes, lack of | 1:04:39 | 1:04:42 | |
religion or belief. And freedom of
conscience, conscientious objection, | 1:04:42 | 1:04:50 | |
surely it should not just be a wish
but also something that is relevant | 1:04:50 | 1:04:57 | |
in practice. Relevant in practice
also in the workplace. The European | 1:04:57 | 1:05:04 | |
Court of Human Rights interprets the
Convention rights, or has | 1:05:04 | 1:05:12 | |
interpreted in a case against the
UK, it was a strong chords and this | 1:05:12 | 1:05:16 | |
is the case of the Coptic Christian
who wished to wear a cross working | 1:05:16 | 1:05:23 | |
for British airway 's, and the Court
held in her favour, a strong chords, | 1:05:23 | 1:05:30 | |
on the basis of her freedom of
religion. There have been some | 1:05:30 | 1:05:35 | |
concerns expressed both in the
assembly of the Council of Europe | 1:05:35 | 1:05:39 | |
and here that the unregulated use of
a conscientious objection clause | 1:05:39 | 1:05:44 | |
could limit a woman's right of
access to lawful medical care. I | 1:05:44 | 1:05:49 | |
think there would be taking a too
far. The noble Baroness Baroness | 1:05:49 | 1:05:57 | |
O'Loan has already mentioned the
resolution 1763 passed by the | 1:05:57 | 1:06:03 | |
Parliamentary assembly of the
Council of Europe in 2010, so I | 1:06:03 | 1:06:08 | |
shall not quotes what is already on
record. | 1:06:08 | 1:06:12 | |
It is surely wrong to deter
individuals from entering and | 1:06:12 | 1:06:17 | |
remaining in the medical profession,
particularly in this case of Dougan | 1:06:17 | 1:06:24 | |
where the circumstances of
employment of this two women had | 1:06:24 | 1:06:27 | |
changed from the time where they
first entered and employment. | 1:06:27 | 1:06:30 | |
Particularly, of course, the
question about recruiting and | 1:06:30 | 1:06:35 | |
retaining is relevant at a time of
the current crisis in the National | 1:06:35 | 1:06:41 | |
Health Service, not just during this
current winter crisis. And we should | 1:06:41 | 1:06:45 | |
be very well conscious of any
deterrent which might be put in the | 1:06:45 | 1:06:52 | |
way of people who are very caring
individuals and who might be | 1:06:52 | 1:06:57 | |
inclined to apply for work in the
health service. | 1:06:57 | 1:07:00 | |
But clearly the NHS is struggling at
the moment to hire and retain GPs. | 1:07:00 | 1:07:09 | |
The number of surgeries, which I
accept is a wider matter, dropped | 1:07:09 | 1:07:13 | |
from around 8500 to eight decades
ago to 7500 today. And we all want | 1:07:13 | 1:07:21 | |
to see a GP when we need to -- from
around 8501 decade ago to 7500 | 1:07:21 | 1:07:29 | |
today. There should not be a way
where we cannot accommodate as far | 1:07:29 | 1:07:35 | |
as possible conscientious objection
while finding appropriate lines of | 1:07:35 | 1:07:37 | |
half -- of how far one can go.
Perhaps the president might be in | 1:07:37 | 1:07:43 | |
the way that the committee of
ministers dealt with the prisoners | 1:07:43 | 1:07:50 | |
voting case from 2005. At in
December of last year a reasonable | 1:07:50 | 1:07:56 | |
accommodation was reached on the
margin of appreciation. And I | 1:07:56 | 1:08:03 | |
applaud the Minister, David
Lidington, for this. Is there not a | 1:08:03 | 1:08:10 | |
margin of appreciation, is there not
a reasonable accommodation in these | 1:08:10 | 1:08:15 | |
cases where the reasonable person
can say this is the current law, it | 1:08:15 | 1:08:21 | |
has been construed too narrowly. We
need to jewel these lines. Perhaps | 1:08:21 | 1:08:30 | |
by amendment is one can see a way
through this, but I understand we | 1:08:30 | 1:08:33 | |
need a debate on this highly
sensitive issue and therefore, for | 1:08:33 | 1:08:37 | |
the moment, I support the bill and
the very excellent way it was put | 1:08:37 | 1:08:43 | |
forward by Baroness O'Loan.
My Lords, in my contribution to the | 1:08:43 | 1:08:49 | |
debate about this important bill,
which I welcome and thank the noble | 1:08:49 | 1:08:53 | |
lady Baroness O'Loan is introducing,
I wish to discuss the concept of | 1:08:53 | 1:08:59 | |
conscience and how necessary I think
it is to have effective provision to | 1:08:59 | 1:09:05 | |
protect it in medicine.
When we talk about conscience, it | 1:09:05 | 1:09:08 | |
seems to me that we mean the part
about the that constitutes moral | 1:09:08 | 1:09:13 | |
integrity, the deeply held and
important moral judgments of our | 1:09:13 | 1:09:19 | |
conscience constitute the central
personal call. They define who we | 1:09:19 | 1:09:23 | |
are, at least morally speaking, and
what we stand for. | 1:09:23 | 1:09:28 | |
The central moral core of our
character. In order for any | 1:09:28 | 1:09:34 | |
individual to maintain their
integrity, they cannot violate their | 1:09:34 | 1:09:38 | |
fundamental moral commitments.
If they achieve this, this gives | 1:09:38 | 1:09:42 | |
others clear reason to respect them,
not because those commitments must | 1:09:42 | 1:09:46 | |
be true or justified in the eyes of
everyone else or even just the | 1:09:46 | 1:09:52 | |
majority, but because the
maintaining of moral integrity is a | 1:09:52 | 1:09:57 | |
crucial action central to our
personal coherence and well-being. | 1:09:57 | 1:10:02 | |
Conscience involves the moral
wholeness of the person, there are | 1:10:02 | 1:10:07 | |
emotional, intellectual and moral
life. When someone betrays their | 1:10:07 | 1:10:11 | |
conscience they do nothing less than
disregards a deep, core aspect of | 1:10:11 | 1:10:17 | |
their personal identity.
Given this reality, my Lords, it is | 1:10:17 | 1:10:22 | |
utterly impossible to detach
conscience from the professional | 1:10:22 | 1:10:26 | |
life of anyone, let alone a medical
professional who deals with often | 1:10:26 | 1:10:31 | |
grave moral situations every day. A
conscientious doctor or nurse or | 1:10:31 | 1:10:38 | |
midwife is conscientious because of
their internal moral life, not | 1:10:38 | 1:10:42 | |
merely because they are proficient
at mechanical is to clean following | 1:10:42 | 1:10:47 | |
official rules and guidelines.
Following this, I think to | 1:10:47 | 1:10:52 | |
illustrate how important legal
conscience protections are, it would | 1:10:52 | 1:10:56 | |
be helpful to note one crucial
difference between the obviously | 1:10:56 | 1:10:59 | |
pertinent parallel major ready by
the noble lady Baroness O'Loan, | 1:10:59 | 1:11:06 | |
between conscientious objection in
military service to what someone | 1:11:06 | 1:11:13 | |
believes is unjust killing and to
the same in medicine. That | 1:11:13 | 1:11:17 | |
difference is the nature of the role
of the coalition. Medical | 1:11:17 | 1:11:23 | |
professionals are vocational actors,
not mere conscripts in a logistical | 1:11:23 | 1:11:27 | |
machine. Medical professionals are
not functional lists with the | 1:11:27 | 1:11:31 | |
medical system, they are not people
providing a shopping service. They | 1:11:31 | 1:11:42 | |
are not merely employees of the NHS
who must do whatever the system | 1:11:42 | 1:11:47 | |
tells them. We would not want a
doctor to do something about when | 1:11:47 | 1:11:52 | |
Stig -- that went against their
professional judgment, no matter | 1:11:52 | 1:11:56 | |
what a patient might want. I am
reminded that according to the | 1:11:56 | 1:12:01 | |
mental capacity act, one may refuse
consent to treatment but one may not | 1:12:01 | 1:12:06 | |
demand that something is done to
you. The integrity of the individual | 1:12:06 | 1:12:11 | |
clinician is part and parcel of the
integrity of medicine itself. Would | 1:12:11 | 1:12:18 | |
we really trust a doctor who did
whatever we wanted and put aside his | 1:12:18 | 1:12:22 | |
judgment for the sake of fulfilling
our wishes? Of course not. We would | 1:12:22 | 1:12:28 | |
want them to, frankly, give us their
best and most conscientious | 1:12:28 | 1:12:33 | |
judgment, for them to you, as some
people think they should, | 1:12:33 | 1:12:39 | |
compartmentalised their most
fundamental moral beliefs from their | 1:12:39 | 1:12:41 | |
professional behaviour would be to
seriously compromise their | 1:12:41 | 1:12:46 | |
integrity. This would be in no one's
best interest. It is crucial, then, | 1:12:46 | 1:12:52 | |
to the right practice of medicine
for both medical professionals and | 1:12:52 | 1:12:55 | |
patients, as in public life itself,
to protect freedom of conscience. | 1:12:55 | 1:13:01 | |
This bill, it seems to me, would
allow for areas of medicine that are | 1:13:01 | 1:13:08 | |
particularly controversial to remain
open to those people with very high | 1:13:08 | 1:13:12 | |
conscience standards and who would
therefore be welcome individuals to | 1:13:12 | 1:13:16 | |
enter these sorts of roles. It would
require a minority of medical | 1:13:16 | 1:13:22 | |
professionals to be reasonable, --
reasonably accommodated, a concept | 1:13:22 | 1:13:26 | |
which I believe is highly important
in this debate, and thereby | 1:13:26 | 1:13:30 | |
including a manner consistent with
our treatment of minorities more | 1:13:30 | 1:13:33 | |
generally. Insofar as this is the
case, it would allow for a society | 1:13:33 | 1:13:39 | |
more truly liberal and open, as well
as qualitative and its medical care, | 1:13:39 | 1:13:44 | |
due to the fully integral character
of those allowed to act within it in | 1:13:44 | 1:13:49 | |
all sectors of medicine. This can
only be for the common good. If we | 1:13:49 | 1:13:55 | |
care about conscience in society,
particularly in medicine, we should | 1:13:55 | 1:14:01 | |
maintain a framing of our laws which
allows for as much liberality as is | 1:14:01 | 1:14:07 | |
sensibly feasible in conscientious
objection when it comes to the | 1:14:07 | 1:14:10 | |
perceived ending of human life. | 1:14:10 | 1:14:18 | |
them in for that reason I am
delighted it has been introduced and | 1:14:18 | 1:14:21 | |
I am passionate to supported. The
NHS relies on the commitment of | 1:14:21 | 1:14:32 | |
thousands of people willing to use
their skills and the training in | 1:14:32 | 1:14:36 | |
order to promote well-being of
patients and to provide particular | 1:14:36 | 1:14:40 | |
care with the compassion. Every
patient deserves to be treated by | 1:14:40 | 1:14:46 | |
those whose primary tasks is to seek
the welfare and respect their | 1:14:46 | 1:14:51 | |
wishes. Many, many of those people
who work in the health service do so | 1:14:51 | 1:14:57 | |
out of religious conviction, but the
fees has led them to believe that | 1:14:57 | 1:15:04 | |
this is a way through vocation to
give particular service to others. | 1:15:04 | 1:15:09 | |
And this is to be welcomed, they are
the stimulates what they do and | 1:15:09 | 1:15:15 | |
sustains them through difficult
thing is that they are required to | 1:15:15 | 1:15:18 | |
do. A minority of those find the
faith or belief system is not | 1:15:18 | 1:15:26 | |
compatible with what they are being
asked to do on locations. They are | 1:15:26 | 1:15:32 | |
firmly held convictions are
established as a right in law to be | 1:15:32 | 1:15:40 | |
respected and protected already.
This bill has an expressed intention | 1:15:40 | 1:15:46 | |
to clarify what those with a
conscientious objection bored or | 1:15:46 | 1:15:57 | |
ought not to be invited to
participate in. Its intention is to | 1:15:57 | 1:16:01 | |
clarify that participation, but, in
fact, the bill goes much further | 1:16:01 | 1:16:06 | |
than that. It expands the level of
participation that could be | 1:16:06 | 1:16:13 | |
protected. We have already heard so
many times, not just a hands-on | 1:16:13 | 1:16:20 | |
active participation, but extends it
to supervision, delegation, planning | 1:16:20 | 1:16:27 | |
and support for staff. It feels to
determine where responsibility lies | 1:16:27 | 1:16:35 | |
for the exercise of care for those
patients to whom conscientious | 1:16:35 | 1:16:41 | |
objector finds it difficult to care.
-- fails. The current practice is | 1:16:41 | 1:16:49 | |
that they must inform colleagues and
patients and that care must be | 1:16:49 | 1:16:54 | |
passed onto another. But what is
defined as the participation in this | 1:16:54 | 1:17:02 | |
bill, seems to deny that right to
remove that responsibility, but it | 1:17:02 | 1:17:09 | |
does not define it as to where it
should go. My Lords, I am well aware | 1:17:09 | 1:17:16 | |
that anecdotes do not always make
good evidence, but personal | 1:17:16 | 1:17:21 | |
experience informs opinions. My
husband, at the age of 42, was | 1:17:21 | 1:17:29 | |
diagnosed with a brain tumour. For
the next ten years we managed that | 1:17:29 | 1:17:34 | |
condition at home, repeated
operations and procedures, | 1:17:34 | 1:17:39 | |
increasing disability and family
trauma. And then his consultant | 1:17:39 | 1:17:45 | |
decided that he would attempt
aggressive surgery. That surgery was | 1:17:45 | 1:17:52 | |
carried out and at the end of the
operation the consultant said to me, | 1:17:52 | 1:17:57 | |
the tumour had been removed, but in
doing so, he had done extensive | 1:17:57 | 1:18:03 | |
damage to the left frontal lobe. My
husband had had a stroke during the | 1:18:03 | 1:18:10 | |
procedure, he was unlikely to have
any good life, he was unlikely to | 1:18:10 | 1:18:19 | |
live through the night and it was
not in his best interest to do so. | 1:18:19 | 1:18:25 | |
He was therefore not put into
intensive care but onto an open | 1:18:25 | 1:18:29 | |
hospital ward so that the family
could see their goodbyes. In the | 1:18:29 | 1:18:34 | |
evening, he was obviously failing
and be on duty registrar was called. | 1:18:34 | 1:18:44 | |
He insisted, despite all my pleas,
that my husband should be put on | 1:18:44 | 1:18:49 | |
life support in intensive care. It
was his duty, he said, to do so, to | 1:18:49 | 1:18:55 | |
preserve his life. He survived. We
suffered 8.5 months of attempted | 1:18:55 | 1:19:05 | |
rehabilitation in hospital and we
had 14 years of residential care, | 1:19:05 | 1:19:12 | |
before he died at the age of 69. My
Lords, my family paid a very high | 1:19:12 | 1:19:19 | |
price for that Doctor to have a
clear conscience. Of course, | 1:19:19 | 1:19:28 | |
honestly held conscientious
objections must be respected and | 1:19:28 | 1:19:34 | |
protected, but it must not be in
order to jeopardise the duty of care | 1:19:34 | 1:19:42 | |
and respect for the best interest of
the patient and the wishes of the | 1:19:42 | 1:19:45 | |
family. I was a little concerned at
reading the excellent library | 1:19:45 | 1:19:52 | |
briefing, at the end of that it
gives some figures from a survey | 1:19:52 | 1:19:56 | |
that was held in 2012 as to the
views of medical students. Of 733 | 1:19:56 | 1:20:07 | |
people who were asked for their
views, almost half of them believed | 1:20:07 | 1:20:11 | |
in the right for doctors to hold
conscientious objections and to be | 1:20:11 | 1:20:16 | |
protected. As medical science grows
and develops, and more interventions | 1:20:16 | 1:20:23 | |
are likely to raise moral and
ethical dilemmas, perhaps it will be | 1:20:23 | 1:20:30 | |
necessary to clarify aspects of the
law as it relates to conscientious | 1:20:30 | 1:20:36 | |
objections. But, my Lords, this bill
is not the way to do it. | 1:20:36 | 1:20:48 | |
My Lords, I find many reasons to
support this bill on moral, | 1:20:48 | 1:20:53 | |
philosophical, legal and practical
grounds, but I wish to be brief and | 1:20:53 | 1:20:56 | |
I will try to keep the format, five
points. Firstly, there is inadequate | 1:20:56 | 1:21:01 | |
protection in law at the moment I
believe. Yes, there are lines of | 1:21:01 | 1:21:06 | |
professional guidance issued by the
General Medical Council and the | 1:21:06 | 1:21:11 | |
general pharmaceutical Council, but
the guidance is not underpinned by | 1:21:11 | 1:21:14 | |
statute or provision and it is
easily changed by a small number of | 1:21:14 | 1:21:18 | |
people or by pressure groups and the
presumption of conscientious | 1:21:18 | 1:21:22 | |
objection can be quickly eroded.
Secondly, I disagree with the | 1:21:22 | 1:21:28 | |
arguments of some previous speakers
that the bill will in fact restrict | 1:21:28 | 1:21:31 | |
access to any service that the NHS
is obliged to provide. What it does | 1:21:31 | 1:21:37 | |
is to clarify the right
conscientious objection in so far as | 1:21:37 | 1:21:41 | |
caselaw has indeed narrowed the
interpretation of what participation | 1:21:41 | 1:21:44 | |
actually means any operations under
consideration. Furthermore, since | 1:21:44 | 1:21:51 | |
the passing of the Abortion Act in
1967, medicine has developed to the | 1:21:51 | 1:21:56 | |
extent that the role of the doctor
or surgeon is now less common than | 1:21:56 | 1:22:00 | |
it was then, Norse and Francis
prescribers exist now and it is | 1:22:00 | 1:22:05 | |
doubtful under the current law state
whether it protects those | 1:22:05 | 1:22:09 | |
petitioners if they wish to invoke a
protection under being involved. | 1:22:09 | 1:22:16 | |
Firstly, on practical grounds alone,
it is clear that the current state | 1:22:16 | 1:22:19 | |
of the law is deterring some nurses
and new-look qualified doctors from | 1:22:19 | 1:22:25 | |
entering on a career in obstetrics
and gynaecology. There is not only | 1:22:25 | 1:22:29 | |
fear of discussing this issue but
people have been put off from | 1:22:29 | 1:22:32 | |
applying for such posts as the moral
convictions may result in the | 1:22:32 | 1:22:37 | |
failure to advance in these careers.
And this is not a question of | 1:22:37 | 1:22:42 | |
adherence to a specifically
Christian professional morality, I | 1:22:42 | 1:22:45 | |
know of one case in which a
distinguished registrar, a highly | 1:22:45 | 1:22:49 | |
skilled and eminent gynaecologist
who is a Muslim, was undoubtedly | 1:22:49 | 1:22:52 | |
sidelined in his career because of
his objections to conduct any kind | 1:22:52 | 1:22:56 | |
of operations at rest in this bill.
He did not find that the protection | 1:22:56 | 1:23:06 | |
offered by clause 1.3 before you
today was available to him. But as | 1:23:06 | 1:23:08 | |
Baroness O'Loan has said, it is not
even a question of professional | 1:23:08 | 1:23:12 | |
adherence to any religious belief,
it is fundamental to our law and | 1:23:12 | 1:23:18 | |
that is fundamental to European
laws. My Lords, if I may include, I | 1:23:18 | 1:23:24 | |
have lived much of my working life
in countries and under regions whose | 1:23:24 | 1:23:28 | |
citizens have had no presumption to
conscientious objection or to the | 1:23:28 | 1:23:32 | |
protection of freedom of conscience.
And where conscience is not a | 1:23:32 | 1:23:37 | |
protected within the society, it is
discernible in the case that | 1:23:37 | 1:23:41 | |
individuals may develop as
diminished human beings as the | 1:23:41 | 1:23:44 | |
person may have no alternative to
act in violation of principles on | 1:23:44 | 1:23:49 | |
which he or she recognises as
defining his or her own humanity. To | 1:23:49 | 1:23:55 | |
withhold or deny this protection can
have a profoundly damaging effect on | 1:23:55 | 1:23:58 | |
personality and ultimately can lead
to my realisation of impoverished | 1:23:58 | 1:24:03 | |
beings and that is, I must disagree
with the broad thrust of the | 1:24:03 | 1:24:10 | |
argument made by the Honourable Lord
Mackay. For these reasons I believe | 1:24:10 | 1:24:14 | |
that the passage of this bill may
be, in an amended version, will | 1:24:14 | 1:24:20 | |
present the world with a defined
example of British medical ethics, | 1:24:20 | 1:24:23 | |
destined to be the admiration of
many. My Lords, I must apologise, I | 1:24:23 | 1:24:31 | |
have just had some injections for
nervous, it has affected my | 1:24:31 | 1:24:38 | |
pronunciation. So, on this occasion
I may have to speak slightly more | 1:24:38 | 1:24:44 | |
slowly than usual to make myself
understood and I will try not to | 1:24:44 | 1:24:50 | |
speak to slowly. My Lords, I
congratulate the noble baroness, | 1:24:50 | 1:24:54 | |
Baroness O'Loan, on introducing her
bill, which I support. And they do | 1:24:54 | 1:25:01 | |
so not only as someone who has
severe disability would have made me | 1:25:01 | 1:25:07 | |
a prime candidate for abortion, but
also from the perspective of the | 1:25:07 | 1:25:11 | |
patients, which Baroness Young of
old stone said were so important. -- | 1:25:11 | 1:25:22 | |
old squad. Today is quite a big day
for me, 22 years ago to this very | 1:25:22 | 1:25:28 | |
day, I almost died. -- Baroness
Young of Old Scone. 22 years on, I | 1:25:28 | 1:25:35 | |
remember that my neurosurgeon could
not give me all its own survival. | 1:25:35 | 1:25:41 | |
But I am still here and I am acutely
aware that it could have so easily | 1:25:41 | 1:25:47 | |
have been very different. The
treatment I received quite literally | 1:25:47 | 1:25:54 | |
sustained my life. Equally, its
withdrawal or denial was undoubtedly | 1:25:54 | 1:26:04 | |
would have been the end of it. So,
in terms of relevance to me | 1:26:04 | 1:26:12 | |
personally, I can detect the box for
11 eight, 11 B and 11 C. At the | 1:26:12 | 1:26:22 | |
patient who has pleased my life in
the hands of medical professionals, | 1:26:22 | 1:26:28 | |
and may well need to do so again, I
believe, as I am sure all noble | 1:26:28 | 1:26:35 | |
lords do, that trust in both the
clinical contents and personal | 1:26:35 | 1:26:42 | |
effort is an essential element of
the patient practitioner | 1:26:42 | 1:26:48 | |
partnership. I therefore totally
agree that no medical practitioner | 1:26:48 | 1:26:57 | |
with the conscientious objection to
participating in certain activities | 1:26:57 | 1:27:03 | |
covered by the registration
mentioned because it goes against | 1:27:03 | 1:27:08 | |
their personal beliefs, should be
under any duty to participate. And I | 1:27:08 | 1:27:15 | |
also agree that there is it need to
clarify the law in light of the way | 1:27:15 | 1:27:24 | |
in which it has been put forward by
both president and practice as we | 1:27:24 | 1:27:30 | |
have already heard. As the noble
baroness, Baroness O'Loan has | 1:27:30 | 1:27:36 | |
already said, conscience is not the
preserve of religion. Indeed, I am | 1:27:36 | 1:27:43 | |
certainly not assuming that a
medical practitioner's personal | 1:27:43 | 1:27:49 | |
beliefs will necessarily be informed
by a religious faith. For example, | 1:27:49 | 1:27:58 | |
they might know a person who is
diagnosed with a disability before | 1:27:58 | 1:28:06 | |
birth and who has turned the
preconception of a disabled person's | 1:28:06 | 1:28:15 | |
quality-of-life is that they can
contribute to society and the | 1:28:15 | 1:28:17 | |
ability to love and be loved as an
equal buyout human being, all those | 1:28:17 | 1:28:25 | |
things may have turned a medical
practitioner's preconception of | 1:28:25 | 1:28:33 | |
disability on its head. | 1:28:33 | 1:28:38 | |
I should add that as I've stated
previously, I do not take a position | 1:28:38 | 1:28:45 | |
on abortion per se. I do, however,
take a position on equality. The | 1:28:45 | 1:28:57 | |
central point for me, and I hope for
all noble Lords participating in | 1:28:57 | 1:29:03 | |
this debate is that genuine equality
doesn't have a cut-off point. A | 1:29:03 | 1:29:11 | |
beginning or an end. And neither is
it relative. Equality is as | 1:29:11 | 1:29:18 | |
fundamental to who we are as human
beings as the other unique hallmarks | 1:29:18 | 1:29:25 | |
of humanity. Our capacity to anchor
our actions within the context of | 1:29:25 | 1:29:34 | |
conscience. For it is our
conscience, surely, which exposes | 1:29:34 | 1:29:38 | |
the dangerous deceit that it is
somehow consistent with the concept | 1:29:38 | 1:29:45 | |
of equality for a more powerful
group of human beings to Act as if | 1:29:45 | 1:29:53 | |
they were more equal than another,
weaker group of human beings. And | 1:29:53 | 1:30:02 | |
moreover, for them to decide that
their superiority and strength means | 1:30:02 | 1:30:09 | |
that they can pretend that
exercising their power is actually a | 1:30:09 | 1:30:16 | |
human right. My Lords, a group may
be more powerful, and which group is | 1:30:16 | 1:30:27 | |
not more powerful than disabled
human beings, but more equal? Never. | 1:30:27 | 1:30:34 | |
Anyone who cares to read George
Orwell's Animal Farm knows he well | 1:30:34 | 1:30:44 | |
and truly nailed that life. My
Lords, this is a Bill which defends | 1:30:44 | 1:30:48 | |
not just the fundamental human right
to freedom of conscience, but also | 1:30:48 | 1:30:55 | |
the right not to prevaricate and
prejudice. The right not to | 1:30:55 | 1:31:05 | |
equivocate on equality. This Bill
defends a human being's right to | 1:31:05 | 1:31:11 | |
choose, to recognise our common
humanity, and thus our intrinsic | 1:31:11 | 1:31:18 | |
equality regardless of disability,
or, for that matter, race, sexuality | 1:31:18 | 1:31:24 | |
or gender. If we truly believe in
genuine equality, how can disabled | 1:31:24 | 1:31:33 | |
human beings be treated any
differently from any other protected | 1:31:33 | 1:31:43 | |
group covered by the equality act
2010, at any stage of our existence, | 1:31:43 | 1:31:50 | |
whether before or after death.
Surely a medical practitioner is | 1:31:50 | 1:32:02 | |
entitled in all conscience to ask
themselves that simple question. My | 1:32:02 | 1:32:07 | |
Lords, this is not religion. This is
cold, hard, clinical logic. And, if | 1:32:07 | 1:32:16 | |
having asked themselves that
question, they should come to the | 1:32:16 | 1:32:20 | |
logical conclusion that
participating in the activities | 1:32:20 | 1:32:28 | |
covered in 1.1 of this Bill
compromises their conscience, the | 1:32:28 | 1:32:32 | |
law must protect them in line with
1.3. No medical practitioner should | 1:32:32 | 1:32:41 | |
themselves suffer discrimination for
their conscientious objection. My | 1:32:41 | 1:32:53 | |
Lords, in conclusion, this Bill
attack is no one. It condemns no | 1:32:53 | 1:33:00 | |
one. And it threatens no one.
Instead, it affirms. It upholds, and | 1:33:00 | 1:33:09 | |
it protects what we all value.
Integrity, equality, our common | 1:33:09 | 1:33:19 | |
humanity, and the greatest human
rights of all. The freedom to think, | 1:33:19 | 1:33:25 | |
to speak, and to act in accordance
with our conscience. In backing this | 1:33:25 | 1:33:35 | |
Bill, we all not only affirm our
shared values, as equal human beings | 1:33:35 | 1:33:41 | |
endowed with a conscience, we affirm
ourselves. My Lords, I rise to | 1:33:41 | 1:33:54 | |
support this important Bill. It's a
timely recognition of the importance | 1:33:54 | 1:33:57 | |
of conscience and ethical belief in
looking at the end of life decisions | 1:33:57 | 1:34:04 | |
and the increasingly complex issues
and personal dilemmas that many face | 1:34:04 | 1:34:10 | |
in their daily lives. Speaking from
a Sikh perspective, I fully support | 1:34:10 | 1:34:18 | |
its sentiments and aims and
objectives. Majority opinion can at | 1:34:18 | 1:34:22 | |
times be unthinking and we need to
be wary of being pushed or pushing | 1:34:22 | 1:34:29 | |
others to support debatable
attitudes which at times the front | 1:34:29 | 1:34:32 | |
ethical and moral principles. This
year, as has been mentioned, while | 1:34:32 | 1:34:40 | |
commemorating the centenary of the
end of the carnage of World War I, | 1:34:40 | 1:34:44 | |
we should pause and reflect that it
was also a war in which | 1:34:44 | 1:34:49 | |
conscientious objectors were
brutally treated or even shot for | 1:34:49 | 1:34:54 | |
their belief that it is wrong to
kill. Something of the same dilemma | 1:34:54 | 1:35:01 | |
was faced by Sikh soldiers when the
Indian army attacked the Golden | 1:35:01 | 1:35:06 | |
Temple in Amritsar in 1984. This
attack on the holiest of Sikh | 1:35:06 | 1:35:12 | |
shrines on one of the holiest days
in the Sikh Callender was clearly | 1:35:12 | 1:35:18 | |
political. Soldiers were ordered to
shoot innocent pilgrims. Some Sikh | 1:35:18 | 1:35:22 | |
soldiers refused and were accused of
mutiny. Some were shot, somewhere to | 1:35:22 | 1:35:30 | |
spend years in prison. They were
accused of treason and disloyalty to | 1:35:30 | 1:35:33 | |
their oath of allegiance. Yet in
refusing to shoot noncombatants they | 1:35:33 | 1:35:42 | |
were being true to the ethical
teachings of their religion. This | 1:35:42 | 1:35:46 | |
requirement to be true to our
conscience is embedded in Sikhs | 1:35:46 | 1:35:52 | |
Scriptures. The fourth guru of the
Sikhs wrote "All human powers men | 1:35:52 | 1:35:58 | |
make pacts with subject to death and
decay" | 1:35:58 | 1:36:05 | |
make pacts with subject to death and
decay". In the Nuremberg trials many | 1:36:05 | 1:36:08 | |
Germans accused of war crimes
against the dues and others pleaded | 1:36:08 | 1:36:12 | |
that they would duty bound to follow
orders, however questionable -- of | 1:36:12 | 1:36:17 | |
war crimes against the Jews. The
requirements of any state were | 1:36:17 | 1:36:24 | |
secondary to the overriding norms of
civilised behaviour. My Lords, rapid | 1:36:24 | 1:36:29 | |
advances in the fields of medicine
and today's increasing tendency to | 1:36:29 | 1:36:33 | |
over focus on the right of an
individual can easily lead us to | 1:36:33 | 1:36:37 | |
ignore the rights of wider society
and the ethical dilemmas that | 1:36:37 | 1:36:44 | |
sometimes questionable procedures
pose for those immediately involved. | 1:36:44 | 1:36:48 | |
The downside of what we do is not
always immediately apparent. The | 1:36:48 | 1:36:54 | |
initial, clearly limited humane
objectives of the abortion act 1967 | 1:36:54 | 1:37:01 | |
have over time been largely ignored.
Abortion has become contrary to the | 1:37:01 | 1:37:08 | |
original intentions of the Act and
the ethical teachings of most | 1:37:08 | 1:37:12 | |
religions and beliefs, has simply
become another method of birth | 1:37:12 | 1:37:19 | |
control. We must have the right to
object and not take part in what we | 1:37:19 | 1:37:24 | |
considered to be the unnecessary
taking of human life. The human | 1:37:24 | 1:37:31 | |
fertilisation and embryology act
1990 which legalised embryo | 1:37:31 | 1:37:36 | |
destructive forms of research, and
the rapid expansion in molecular | 1:37:36 | 1:37:40 | |
biology, a new genetic modification
techniques, can impinge on deeply | 1:37:40 | 1:37:49 | |
held ethical beliefs. People should
not be compelled to do anything they | 1:37:49 | 1:37:52 | |
believe is contrary to the
respectful life. While conscience | 1:37:52 | 1:37:58 | |
clauses were included in initial
legislation, these have been | 1:37:58 | 1:38:03 | |
continually eroded by social
pressures to conform. Those involved | 1:38:03 | 1:38:08 | |
in procedures that impact on
sincerely held ethical beliefs must | 1:38:08 | 1:38:13 | |
be given the right to opt out. This
need to respect conscience goes | 1:38:13 | 1:38:22 | |
beyond the field of medicine.
Yesterday I was invited to give a | 1:38:22 | 1:38:29 | |
Sikh perspective on relationship
teaching in schools. As a Sikh I am | 1:38:29 | 1:38:35 | |
appalled that the undue emphasis on
sexual relationships and sexual | 1:38:35 | 1:38:41 | |
identity currently being taught in
schools. Young children are led to | 1:38:41 | 1:38:48 | |
questioning their gender and
unhelpful helpfully offered support | 1:38:48 | 1:38:50 | |
to make permanent their potential
differences, passing phases of | 1:38:50 | 1:39:01 | |
growing up. Parents and teachers
should have a right to question or | 1:39:01 | 1:39:05 | |
opt out of such teachings. Today we
need to heed the words of the great | 1:39:05 | 1:39:11 | |
philosopher James Russell Lao all
who wrote "We owe allegiance to the | 1:39:11 | 1:39:15 | |
state but deeper, truer still, to
the sympathies that God has set | 1:39:15 | 1:39:20 | |
within our spirits" | 1:39:20 | 1:39:25 | |
the sympathies that God has set
within our spirits". The Bill is | 1:39:25 | 1:39:27 | |
timely, well considered and
necessary, I give it my full | 1:39:27 | 1:39:30 | |
support. I first had the pleasure of
meeting the noble lady Baroness in | 1:39:30 | 1:39:38 | |
Northern Ireland many years ago. I
was very impressed with the work she | 1:39:38 | 1:39:43 | |
did there, the excellent way she
contributed to the peace process and | 1:39:43 | 1:39:46 | |
life in Northern Ireland. It is
therefore with some regret that I'm | 1:39:46 | 1:39:51 | |
afraid I have to differ with her on
this occasion. I feel bad about that | 1:39:51 | 1:39:55 | |
but I feel I must do that because
she was such an important figure in | 1:39:55 | 1:40:00 | |
those years in Northern Ireland. My
Lords, of course we all agree about | 1:40:00 | 1:40:05 | |
the right to conscientious
objection. It seems to me we are | 1:40:05 | 1:40:07 | |
simply debating where to draw the
line. There is no real point of | 1:40:07 | 1:40:13 | |
principle here. I think the current
provision for conscientious | 1:40:13 | 1:40:18 | |
objection in medical practice has
just about got the balance right. | 1:40:18 | 1:40:21 | |
Between health care professionals'
moral beliefs and patients' freedom. | 1:40:21 | 1:40:30 | |
I fear this Bill will tip the
balance in the wrong direction away | 1:40:30 | 1:40:32 | |
from the rights of patients. That is
the basis of my objection. I don't | 1:40:32 | 1:40:37 | |
think the case has been made out for
the Bill, at least not to my | 1:40:37 | 1:40:42 | |
satisfaction. There is one
particularly important point. There | 1:40:42 | 1:40:46 | |
is nothing in this Bill which would
oblige the objecting health care | 1:40:46 | 1:40:51 | |
professional to refer a patient's
case to another professional who | 1:40:51 | 1:40:58 | |
didn't have an objection. In other
words, if a doctor or whoever it is | 1:40:58 | 1:41:02 | |
is unhappy about being asked to
carry out a procedure or treatment, | 1:41:02 | 1:41:06 | |
surely they should be able to do
what has been traditionally done. I | 1:41:06 | 1:41:11 | |
can't do this, but I'll refer you to
somebody else it can. To me that is | 1:41:11 | 1:41:15 | |
an enormous gap in the Bill. I don't
think I'd miss read it but it isn't | 1:41:15 | 1:41:19 | |
there and I think that is
unfortunate. My Lords, I think the | 1:41:19 | 1:41:27 | |
Bill would significantly widen the
scope of conscientious objection. It | 1:41:27 | 1:41:30 | |
would increase the number of medical
procedures to which conscientious | 1:41:30 | 1:41:34 | |
objection would apply under the law.
If you broaden the razor | 1:41:34 | 1:41:38 | |
professionals to whom it would
apply, for example in clause 1.2 it | 1:41:38 | 1:41:44 | |
says that participation includes
"Any supervision, delegation, | 1:41:44 | 1:41:51 | |
planning or supporting of staff in
respect of that activity". That may | 1:41:51 | 1:41:56 | |
be so peripheral to the activity
itself that it seems to me it's | 1:41:56 | 1:42:01 | |
extending the principle of
conscientious objection to far. I | 1:42:01 | 1:42:04 | |
prefer the Baroness's comment about
it having to be hands-on. Even if we | 1:42:04 | 1:42:09 | |
don't like her being too narrow in
this, I think the Bill itself goes | 1:42:09 | 1:42:14 | |
far too far in the phrase I've read
out. | 1:42:14 | 1:42:21 | |
What we are talking about is in fact
supervision, delegation, planning. | 1:42:21 | 1:42:27 | |
Let me spell this out slightly. For
example, you might have a palliative | 1:42:27 | 1:42:34 | |
care clinical nurse specialist
supervising be specific care needs | 1:42:34 | 1:42:38 | |
for an oncology ward patient
including those who may have refused | 1:42:38 | 1:42:42 | |
life-sustaining treatment such as
chemotherapy. It seems to me that it | 1:42:42 | 1:42:47 | |
is the right of many patients who
suffer from cancer to refuse | 1:42:47 | 1:42:50 | |
chemotherapy. I know some people
myself. Surely, that ought not to be | 1:42:50 | 1:42:55 | |
with in the ambit of the Bill and I
could give many other examples of | 1:42:55 | 1:43:03 | |
this. It seems to me that the rights
of patients should not be forgotten | 1:43:03 | 1:43:09 | |
in this way. My Lords, the bill also
seeks to expand the activities to | 1:43:09 | 1:43:14 | |
which a health care professional
good object and I think it is | 1:43:14 | 1:43:24 | |
crucial not to distinguish between
people starting treatment as people | 1:43:24 | 1:43:27 | |
stopping treatment at a time of
their choosing. We heard a very | 1:43:27 | 1:43:31 | |
emotional speech from the noble lady
opposite about her own personal | 1:43:31 | 1:43:36 | |
family circumstances and it seems to
me that the right to not have | 1:43:36 | 1:43:40 | |
treatment or the right to stop
treatment is absolutely fundamental | 1:43:40 | 1:43:44 | |
and my fear is that this bill will
make that freedom less effective. | 1:43:44 | 1:43:52 | |
Lastly, there is a case that people
who want to refused life-sustaining | 1:43:52 | 1:44:01 | |
treatment in advance because of the
possibility of deterioration in | 1:44:01 | 1:44:06 | |
their mental health condition and,
again, I fear that the bill is | 1:44:06 | 1:44:09 | |
silent on an issue of whether health
care professionals can object to | 1:44:09 | 1:44:19 | |
adults refusing life-sustaining
treatment in advance that others may | 1:44:19 | 1:44:23 | |
decide is necessary. I regret having
to object to this bill, but I'm | 1:44:23 | 1:44:27 | |
afraid I do object. I think it will
be to the detriment of patients and | 1:44:27 | 1:44:30 | |
I do not think it takes the argument
of conscientious objection any | 1:44:30 | 1:44:37 | |
further in a sensible way. I
congratulate my noble friend for | 1:44:37 | 1:44:41 | |
introducing this bill. The point I
wish to make have already been made | 1:44:41 | 1:44:45 | |
in far more eloquent contributions
than my would-be but I wish to give | 1:44:45 | 1:44:49 | |
a very briefly my reasons for
strongly supporting this bill. I | 1:44:49 | 1:44:52 | |
should acknowledge my position as
honorary reader of the Royal College | 1:44:52 | 1:45:00 | |
of nurses. It seems that all the
health care who would be positively | 1:45:00 | 1:45:06 | |
affected by the successful passage
of this bill, none would be more so | 1:45:06 | 1:45:10 | |
than nurses and midwives. It is
nurses who are likely to be asked to | 1:45:10 | 1:45:14 | |
assist in the withdrawal of
treatment and midwives with | 1:45:14 | 1:45:21 | |
performing abortion. My Lords, it is
not a matter of imposing values or | 1:45:21 | 1:45:25 | |
beliefs on patients but to ask for
the right of conscientious objection | 1:45:25 | 1:45:29 | |
where a human life is being taken by
asking the National Health Service | 1:45:29 | 1:45:32 | |
to accommodate at professionals who
have religious authors -- religious | 1:45:32 | 1:45:41 | |
or philosophical convictions. Such
beliefs are given protection under | 1:45:41 | 1:45:44 | |
from discrimination in conscience
clauses recognised and originally | 1:45:44 | 1:45:50 | |
called for by professional bodies. I
refer, for example, to the clause in | 1:45:50 | 1:45:55 | |
the abortion act. The Royal College
of nurses, the general nursing | 1:45:55 | 1:45:59 | |
Council and to date the nursing
midwifery Council and the Royal | 1:45:59 | 1:46:03 | |
College of midwives all called for a
provision to help protect the | 1:46:03 | 1:46:06 | |
professionals they represented and,
indeed, rightly so. It was this | 1:46:06 | 1:46:10 | |
representation that informs the
framing of that act and which should | 1:46:10 | 1:46:13 | |
inform our interpretation of it
today. As a Royal College of Nursing | 1:46:13 | 1:46:18 | |
position statement on abortion
states, I quote, the equally | 1:46:18 | 1:46:23 | |
acknowledge and respect those
nurses, midwives and health care | 1:46:23 | 1:46:26 | |
assistants who have a conscientious
objection within current | 1:46:26 | 1:46:29 | |
legislation. My Lords, this
acknowledgement is important because | 1:46:29 | 1:46:33 | |
it reflects the understanding that
conscientious belief is not just a | 1:46:33 | 1:46:38 | |
personal idiosyncrasy, but a central
element of what it is to be a human | 1:46:38 | 1:46:42 | |
being. Most importantly in this
context, a human being providing | 1:46:42 | 1:46:47 | |
health care and medical treatment.
Such belief is protected and | 1:46:47 | 1:46:51 | |
equality legislation and we have
taken pains in previous law to | 1:46:51 | 1:46:54 | |
accommodate the consciousness of
medical and other health care | 1:46:54 | 1:46:58 | |
professionals. However,
unfortunately, as has been mentioned | 1:46:58 | 1:47:01 | |
that highlighted by others, these
legal judgments have demonstrated a | 1:47:01 | 1:47:07 | |
degradation in these protections in
law. Correcting the situation as | 1:47:07 | 1:47:10 | |
this bill would do and thereby
allowing freedom of conscience by | 1:47:10 | 1:47:14 | |
health care workers, ensuring their
freedom from unjust discrimination | 1:47:14 | 1:47:18 | |
and respecting diversity of belief
would be a very significant and | 1:47:18 | 1:47:23 | |
much-needed achievement. For the
sake of those serving, the medical, | 1:47:23 | 1:47:27 | |
nursing and midwifery professions
and the patients they serve and for | 1:47:27 | 1:47:32 | |
the sake of the integrity of health
care professions, I believe ensuring | 1:47:32 | 1:47:36 | |
that conscientious objection is
given proper protection in law would | 1:47:36 | 1:47:41 | |
be a truly important reform which
this bill seeks to ensure and why I | 1:47:41 | 1:47:45 | |
give this bill my strongest support.
I rise to support this bill brought | 1:47:45 | 1:47:52 | |
forward by my noble friend. I wish
to bring us back for one moment, as | 1:47:52 | 1:48:00 | |
has just been referred to by the
noble lady, to the title of the bill | 1:48:00 | 1:48:07 | |
we are debating, conscientious
objection. And I agree in the | 1:48:07 | 1:48:13 | |
context of the term conscience. I
support and agree with the | 1:48:13 | 1:48:17 | |
mainstream academic view which has
been briefly referred to earlier as | 1:48:17 | 1:48:25 | |
articulated by Professor Dan Brock
of the Harvard medical school in | 1:48:25 | 1:48:30 | |
2008. I quote, deeply held and
important moral judgments of | 1:48:30 | 1:48:38 | |
conscience constitutes the central
basis of individuals' moral | 1:48:38 | 1:48:43 | |
integrity. They define who, at least
morally speaking, the individual is, | 1:48:43 | 1:48:51 | |
what she stands for, what is the
central moral core of her character. | 1:48:51 | 1:48:57 | |
The truth that there is a sense
which I think Brock draws out rather | 1:48:57 | 1:49:03 | |
well in which the role of conscience
highlights an important part of what | 1:49:03 | 1:49:08 | |
makes us human. My Lords, there is
something sinister, oppressive and | 1:49:08 | 1:49:18 | |
inhuman about societysocieties that
do not make space for conscience | 1:49:18 | 1:49:23 | |
which make people suffer for
remaining true to their moral | 1:49:23 | 1:49:29 | |
judgments of conscience whether
through secular or religious values. | 1:49:29 | 1:49:36 | |
As an academic and experts in this
field, Doctor Mary Newell of the | 1:49:36 | 1:49:41 | |
University of Strathclyde 's legal
department puts it, I quote, | 1:49:41 | 1:49:44 | |
conscience clauses exist primarily
to protect people from moral | 1:49:44 | 1:49:51 | |
responsibility for what they regard
as wrongdoing. This seems a vital | 1:49:51 | 1:49:58 | |
part of our legal framework and one
which, in the areas of medicine we | 1:49:58 | 1:50:06 | |
are discussing today, is widely
respected internationally. Article | 1:50:06 | 1:50:12 | |
nine of the European Convention on
human rights outlines that everyone | 1:50:12 | 1:50:17 | |
has the right to freedom of thought,
of conscience and of religion. | 1:50:17 | 1:50:24 | |
Further, has has been referred to,
resolution 163 of the Parliamentary | 1:50:24 | 1:50:31 | |
Constitution of Europe calls on the
Council of Europe members to | 1:50:31 | 1:50:35 | |
guarantee the rights to a
conscientious objection for medical | 1:50:35 | 1:50:41 | |
procedures in these various very
areas described in the bill. Whilst, | 1:50:41 | 1:50:49 | |
and importantly, also ensuring
patients are able to access | 1:50:49 | 1:50:56 | |
appropriate treatment. At this
point, some might say that whilst | 1:50:56 | 1:51:05 | |
they have no desire to force people
to act against their conscience, | 1:51:05 | 1:51:11 | |
people with conscientious objections
to procedure is caused by clause one | 1:51:11 | 1:51:15 | |
should not enter the medical
profession. No one has to be a | 1:51:15 | 1:51:19 | |
doctor or a midwife or a nurse.
Well, I don't find that position at | 1:51:19 | 1:51:26 | |
all remotely persuasive. As someone
who has spent his life in business, | 1:51:26 | 1:51:35 | |
commercial, education and the
performing arts, I am keenly aware | 1:51:35 | 1:51:39 | |
that every industry wants
hard-working, dedicated people | 1:51:39 | 1:51:44 | |
operating in their field. We want
hard-working, dedicated doctors, | 1:51:44 | 1:51:53 | |
nurses and midwives working in this
country. Individuals who enter these | 1:51:53 | 1:51:58 | |
professions also do so because of
their deep concerns first human | 1:51:58 | 1:52:02 | |
life. It is therefore no surprise
that the medical procedure is | 1:52:02 | 1:52:07 | |
covered by clause one of this bill
would be problematic to some of | 1:52:07 | 1:52:11 | |
them. In the absence of this bill,
two groups, I believe, really get | 1:52:11 | 1:52:18 | |
into difficulty. First, let's
consider those who are already | 1:52:18 | 1:52:24 | |
trained and have become medical
professionals | 1:52:24 | 1:52:28 | |
conscientious objections to
abortion. The 2016 report, freedom | 1:52:28 | 1:52:35 | |
of conscience in abortion provision,
highlights evidence of clear | 1:52:35 | 1:52:39 | |
conscientious objection based
discrimination against those already | 1:52:39 | 1:52:44 | |
in the medical profession. These
were not frivolous claims but | 1:52:44 | 1:52:51 | |
serious concerns expressed by those
who report is that they would not be | 1:52:51 | 1:52:55 | |
able to progress their careers if
they objected to abortions. It is | 1:52:55 | 1:53:01 | |
for this reason, my Lords, that I
strongly recommend the employment | 1:53:01 | 1:53:05 | |
discrimination protections in clause
three. Second, let us consider the | 1:53:05 | 1:53:12 | |
implications of asserting that only
those without a conscientious | 1:53:12 | 1:53:16 | |
objection should enter a medical
profession. This would be clearly a | 1:53:16 | 1:53:20 | |
huge disappointment to those who
aspire to be medical professionals | 1:53:20 | 1:53:24 | |
and who have otherwise have become
talented doctors or nurses. I know | 1:53:24 | 1:53:31 | |
we are all greatly disturbed of the
News of the shortage of medical | 1:53:31 | 1:53:35 | |
staff in the National Health
Service. In this context, therefore, | 1:53:35 | 1:53:40 | |
putting any barriers in the way of
entering the medical profession | 1:53:40 | 1:53:44 | |
because individuals feel they cannot
exercise their freedom of conscience | 1:53:44 | 1:53:47 | |
is clearly counter-productive. The
irony is that some would argue | 1:53:47 | 1:53:55 | |
against conscience on the basis that
it will apparently restrict services | 1:53:55 | 1:54:00 | |
and this is greatly confounded by
the fact that the right to | 1:54:00 | 1:54:04 | |
conscientious objection proposed to
this bill and already in law only | 1:54:04 | 1:54:08 | |
applies to individual professionals.
The National Health Service in both | 1:54:08 | 1:54:14 | |
England and Wales has a legal
obligation to provide abortion | 1:54:14 | 1:54:18 | |
services and they have the
responsibility to ensure sufficient | 1:54:18 | 1:54:24 | |
provision. My Lords, I do not wish
to see medical professions condemned | 1:54:24 | 1:54:32 | |
to be providers rather than
individuals. I do not wish to see | 1:54:32 | 1:54:37 | |
services delivered, especially
health care services, by people who | 1:54:37 | 1:54:39 | |
have been forced to renounce a key
aspect of their humanity. We once | 1:54:39 | 1:54:45 | |
doctors and nurses who are more, not
less, human and that will only | 1:54:45 | 1:54:51 | |
happen if we honour their humanity.
I want to live in a country where we | 1:54:51 | 1:54:57 | |
have a richer conception of human
beings and where we do not wear | 1:54:57 | 1:55:00 | |
consumer rights such that the
consumer can demand a pound of flesh | 1:55:00 | 1:55:09 | |
from the provider without any
concern for the moral difficulty it | 1:55:09 | 1:55:11 | |
might place him or her in. It seems
to me that part of this challenge of | 1:55:11 | 1:55:20 | |
living in a civilised society is
having the grace to exercise one's | 1:55:20 | 1:55:26 | |
rights in a way that has regard for
how doing so impact other people. My | 1:55:26 | 1:55:32 | |
Lords, I am committed to this bill.
I rise to express my great respect | 1:55:32 | 1:55:41 | |
for my noble friend but also my
considerable concern about the | 1:55:41 | 1:55:44 | |
likely consequences of this bill if
it were to reach the statute book | 1:55:44 | 1:55:48 | |
and I want to pay tribute to the
extraordinary moving contribution by | 1:55:48 | 1:55:54 | |
the baroness which, to me, says it
all, frankly. The focus of my | 1:55:54 | 1:55:58 | |
remarks will be clause 1.2 of the
bill and particularly whitening the | 1:55:58 | 1:56:02 | |
definition in that clause of the
term participation in the treatment | 1:56:02 | 1:56:07 | |
process. I also would like to make
remarks on the withdrawal of life | 1:56:07 | 1:56:12 | |
prolonging treatment at the request
of the patient. The right of | 1:56:12 | 1:56:17 | |
patients to decide when and whether
to accept medical treatment is at | 1:56:17 | 1:56:20 | |
the heart of this. In the past, it
was assumed that the doctor knew | 1:56:20 | 1:56:24 | |
best and that the patient should not
have any say in what happened to | 1:56:24 | 1:56:28 | |
them should they fall into the hands
of the medical profession. In recent | 1:56:28 | 1:56:33 | |
years, a basic tenants of medical
treatment the rights of the patients | 1:56:33 | 1:56:37 | |
to know about the side-effects of
treatments, the consequences of | 1:56:37 | 1:56:42 | |
nontreatment, so so the treatment
himself or herself can make an | 1:56:42 | 1:56:47 | |
informed decision about what they
know is in their own best interest. | 1:56:47 | 1:56:51 | |
The centrality of the patient in
treatment decisions is assumed | 1:56:51 | 1:56:55 | |
throughout adult life until the
months before death and then the | 1:56:55 | 1:57:02 | |
General medical Council makes clear
that the duties of medical | 1:57:02 | 1:57:05 | |
practitioners in their guidance on
treatment and care towards the end | 1:57:05 | 1:57:09 | |
of life, good practice in
decision-making published in 2010. | 1:57:09 | 1:57:14 | |
All important for me, the GMC makes
clear that a doctor must not refuse | 1:57:14 | 1:57:19 | |
to withdraw life prolonging
treatments because of a | 1:57:19 | 1:57:23 | |
conscientious objection without
first ensuring that arrangements | 1:57:23 | 1:57:27 | |
have been made for another doctor to
take over. In other words, a | 1:57:27 | 1:57:33 | |
conscientious objector, fair enough,
they can have their objection but | 1:57:33 | 1:57:37 | |
they must not interfere with the
ending of life prolonging treatment | 1:57:37 | 1:57:41 | |
if that is the wish of the patient
and, obviously, if it is the wish of | 1:57:41 | 1:57:46 | |
the patient it is because it is in
the best interest of the patient. | 1:57:46 | 1:57:53 | |
Similar emphasis is placed on the
patient's right to decide by the | 1:57:53 | 1:57:57 | |
mental capacity act code of practice
and the nursing and midwifery | 1:57:57 | 1:58:05 | |
Council. The provisions of this Bill
will place an unnecessary additional | 1:58:05 | 1:58:10 | |
burden on the medical professionals
and others in our already | 1:58:10 | 1:58:15 | |
drastically overstretched NHS. That
worries me deeply, because basically | 1:58:15 | 1:58:18 | |
we want patients to get the
treatment they want and deserve. If | 1:58:18 | 1:58:24 | |
the GMC and other guidance is not
fully complied with, then the | 1:58:24 | 1:58:29 | |
important needs of the patient will
not be met. The current law works | 1:58:29 | 1:58:36 | |
well, as they say if it ain't broke
don't fix it. The law allows the | 1:58:36 | 1:58:43 | |
medical profession to
conscientiously object without | 1:58:43 | 1:58:45 | |
abandoning their patients and
without promoting the principles of | 1:58:45 | 1:58:50 | |
person centred care. Clause 1.2 of
the Bill intends to extend the | 1:58:50 | 1:59:00 | |
definition of participate in the
withdrawal of treatment to encompass | 1:59:00 | 1:59:05 | |
any supervision, delegation,
planning or supporting of staff. As | 1:59:05 | 1:59:08 | |
other noble Lords have said, this is
in direct conflict with the Supreme | 1:59:08 | 1:59:13 | |
Court decision delivered by Lady
Hale that it "Participate means | 1:59:13 | 1:59:17 | |
taking part in a hands-on capacity".
It's terribly important I think that | 1:59:17 | 1:59:24 | |
a medical professional shouldn't be
required to do something directly | 1:59:24 | 1:59:32 | |
contrary to their conscience. I hope
your Lordships will want to uphold | 1:59:32 | 1:59:36 | |
the Supreme Court decision and
therefore to reject the Bill. I | 1:59:36 | 1:59:40 | |
realise my noble friend Lord Browne
said how that decision in detail | 1:59:40 | 1:59:45 | |
which was most helpful. I want to
support Lord Dubs's concerned that | 1:59:45 | 1:59:50 | |
the Bill also says nothing about
whether health care staff could | 1:59:50 | 1:59:54 | |
conscientiously object to helping
mentally competent adults with their | 1:59:54 | 1:59:59 | |
advanced care plan, including
clarification of situations, when | 1:59:59 | 2:00:02 | |
they would want treatment to be
withdrawn. If that happened it would | 2:00:02 | 2:00:08 | |
have a swathe of further detrimental
effects for patients. It's important | 2:00:08 | 2:00:13 | |
for us all to try and put ourselves
in the position of a dying person | 2:00:13 | 2:00:18 | |
who is suffering has become
unbearable and whose treatment is | 2:00:18 | 2:00:22 | |
only prolonging a situation they
find intolerable. The patient wants | 2:00:22 | 2:00:25 | |
to be able to decide how much
suffering they are willing and able | 2:00:25 | 2:00:30 | |
to take. Can anyone really say the
patient should be denied that right? | 2:00:30 | 2:00:35 | |
Particularly vulnerable if this law
were passed would be a terminally | 2:00:35 | 2:00:40 | |
ill patient in a hospice who decided
they wanted treatment to cease but a | 2:00:40 | 2:00:46 | |
charge nurse who had general
management responsibility for the | 2:00:46 | 2:00:50 | |
hospice as a whole and for their
care had a conscientious objection | 2:00:50 | 2:00:56 | |
to that patient's decision. With
that charge nurse really be able to | 2:00:56 | 2:01:00 | |
ensure that someone else took over
their management responsibility? | 2:01:00 | 2:01:05 | |
Would there be such a person? This
law is dangerous, my lords. It would | 2:01:05 | 2:01:10 | |
have a negative impact on palliative
and hospice care, terminally ill | 2:01:10 | 2:01:14 | |
patients could be required to suffer
more than they already do, people | 2:01:14 | 2:01:19 | |
suffer enough, and therefore wrongly
in my view. My Lords, this is a | 2:01:19 | 2:01:24 | |
complex issue but I believe the
current law strikes a pretty good | 2:01:24 | 2:01:29 | |
balance. I therefore cannot support
this Bill. My Lords, in the | 2:01:29 | 2:01:36 | |
beginning perhaps I should try and
allay some of the anxieties the | 2:01:36 | 2:01:39 | |
noble Baroness by referring had to
clause one of the Bill which | 2:01:39 | 2:01:46 | |
restricts its effect to activities
under the embryology act 1990 and | 2:01:46 | 2:01:51 | |
the Abortion Act 1967. That's not
going to take us, I think into the | 2:01:51 | 2:01:57 | |
area of hospices and so one. I will
speak very briefly because so much | 2:01:57 | 2:02:05 | |
has been said so well. If I could
say that my noble and Leonard friend | 2:02:05 | 2:02:15 | |
has set out very clearly most of the
reasons for which I support this | 2:02:15 | 2:02:19 | |
Bill -- noble and learned friend.
And my noble friend the Baroness has | 2:02:19 | 2:02:28 | |
set the margin for philosophic
terms. I would rather turn to the | 2:02:28 | 2:02:32 | |
practicalities, and there is a
common concern not limited to those | 2:02:32 | 2:02:37 | |
who oppose the Bill in principle,
about the extent to which the | 2:02:37 | 2:02:41 | |
exemption of the Bill supplies, the
whiteness of that extent. My Lords, | 2:02:41 | 2:02:50 | |
it seems to me that two things need
to be held in mind when we start on | 2:02:50 | 2:02:57 | |
this. The first is to empty our
minds of our own views as to the | 2:02:57 | 2:03:07 | |
rightness or wrongness of the
termination of life. What we are | 2:03:07 | 2:03:11 | |
looking at is the rightness or
wrongness of requiring people to do | 2:03:11 | 2:03:16 | |
things which are absolutely
abhorrent to them. The question is | 2:03:16 | 2:03:21 | |
how close to the deed that is done
do you have to be before you are | 2:03:21 | 2:03:26 | |
right to think you are in some sense
guilty? Therefore it might be | 2:03:26 | 2:03:31 | |
helpful to look at how we apply this
test elsewhere. For instance, if | 2:03:31 | 2:03:36 | |
there is a burglary and if I make
arrangements for the burglar to have | 2:03:36 | 2:03:49 | |
somebody to keep watch while he
burbles, or if I arrange for there | 2:03:49 | 2:03:53 | |
to be a getaway car and delegate the
duty of driving it to somebody else, | 2:03:53 | 2:04:02 | |
it would be quite clear I would have
thought in a court that guilt | 2:04:02 | 2:04:07 | |
attached to me because I had made it
possible for the burglary to take | 2:04:07 | 2:04:11 | |
place. The question is, in my mind,
at what stage in the administrative | 2:04:11 | 2:04:19 | |
and preparatory procedures can a
person who is involved probably say | 2:04:19 | 2:04:24 | |
that if I had not done this, that
would not have happened. If I have | 2:04:24 | 2:04:29 | |
not provided this particular
pharmaceutical product, or if I had | 2:04:29 | 2:04:41 | |
not myself being present at a
particular time in neighbouring some | 2:04:41 | 2:04:45 | |
function to take place, then it
could not have happened. I think the | 2:04:45 | 2:04:50 | |
definition we must seek in committee
is a definition which makes clear | 2:04:50 | 2:04:56 | |
where the line stops in the
administrative and preparatory | 2:04:56 | 2:05:02 | |
training, where the line below which
there is no guilt. Whether you are | 2:05:02 | 2:05:13 | |
organising the bus service that goes
past the House that was burgled and | 2:05:13 | 2:05:17 | |
not the car that the burglar got
away in. It's a simple illustration, | 2:05:17 | 2:05:21 | |
I hope it's helpful. I warmly and
enthusiastically support the Bill | 2:05:21 | 2:05:27 | |
and its intentions and the noble
Baroness and I would like to see | 2:05:27 | 2:05:31 | |
more about the contributions but I
think we need to bring this to an | 2:05:31 | 2:05:34 | |
end because we are focusing very
clearly -- not focusing very clearly | 2:05:34 | 2:05:41 | |
and what the real issues are. I
thank you for bringing this timely | 2:05:41 | 2:05:45 | |
Bill to her Lordship's house and for
her eloquent and persuasive | 2:05:45 | 2:05:50 | |
introductory remarks. My interests
link to various charities which work | 2:05:50 | 2:05:54 | |
on these issues are declared in the
register. I served as a member of | 2:05:54 | 2:05:59 | |
the all Parliamentary party pro-life
group enquiry into freedom of | 2:05:59 | 2:06:04 | |
conscience in abortion provision
which has been referred to during | 2:06:04 | 2:06:07 | |
the course of this debate, and
enquiry admirably chaired by Fiona | 2:06:07 | 2:06:12 | |
Bruce MP. On Wednesday this week I
met Mary Dougan, one of the two | 2:06:12 | 2:06:18 | |
midwives referred to by my noble
friend and others. The call of the | 2:06:18 | 2:06:24 | |
midwife is an incredibly high
calling. It's a call to bring new | 2:06:24 | 2:06:28 | |
life into the world. And to tell
such women that they must facilitate | 2:06:28 | 2:06:33 | |
the taking of the lives of babies in
the womb or lose their jobs is not | 2:06:33 | 2:06:37 | |
the hallmark of a liberal or a
tolerant society. In the 18th | 2:06:37 | 2:06:44 | |
century, the renowned German
philosopher Emanuel Kant understood | 2:06:44 | 2:06:48 | |
conscience as "An internal quote in
man". -- internal court in man. It | 2:06:48 | 2:06:58 | |
acts as an external constraint on
human behaviour. Whether it's | 2:06:58 | 2:07:01 | |
inspired by religious or secular
belief is largely irrelevant. | 2:07:01 | 2:07:06 | |
Conscience is unfounded and where
more personal preference but rather | 2:07:06 | 2:07:11 | |
it provides meaningful conviction
which allows people to structure | 2:07:11 | 2:07:13 | |
their own ethical identity and to
exercise their judgment. It was in | 2:07:13 | 2:07:19 | |
accordance with cant's dictum that
the framers of the 1948 universal | 2:07:19 | 2:07:26 | |
declaration of human rights, written
as the world emerged from the | 2:07:26 | 2:07:32 | |
horrors of the Second World War,
that they understood conscience. | 2:07:32 | 2:07:38 | |
Conscience features prominently in
the document, with the very first | 2:07:38 | 2:07:42 | |
article recognising that all human
beings are born free and equal in | 2:07:42 | 2:07:47 | |
dignity and rights. They are endowed
with reason and conscience. Both the | 2:07:47 | 2:07:54 | |
Universal Declaration of Human
Rights and the European Convention | 2:07:54 | 2:07:57 | |
on human rights explicitly guarantee
a right to freedom of conscience for | 2:07:57 | 2:08:04 | |
all and it's been recognised in
every major human rights treaty | 2:08:04 | 2:08:08 | |
since then. My Lords, it was also
recognised in another place and here | 2:08:08 | 2:08:13 | |
during the debates in 1967 that
formed the Abortion Act. It was | 2:08:13 | 2:08:19 | |
David Steele who told the House of
Commons" the Bill imposes no | 2:08:19 | 2:08:31 | |
obligation on anyone to participate
in an operation. The clause also | 2:08:31 | 2:08:36 | |
gives nurses and hospital employees
a clear right to opt out". My Lords, | 2:08:36 | 2:08:45 | |
the case of Mary Dougan shows how
that assurance which was given in | 2:08:45 | 2:08:50 | |
sincerity and in the genuine belief
that it would be prevented has at | 2:08:50 | 2:08:54 | |
least been diluted and watered down.
While conscientious protection in | 2:08:54 | 2:08:59 | |
section four was specifically
enshrined in the Act, in practice | 2:08:59 | 2:09:02 | |
the report that we undertook over
the last two years found that | 2:09:02 | 2:09:08 | |
medical professionals are far too
dependent on the individual | 2:09:08 | 2:09:11 | |
attitudes and discretion of their
personal line managers or | 2:09:11 | 2:09:15 | |
colleagues. During the enquiry
evidence from the British Medical | 2:09:15 | 2:09:20 | |
Association confirmed some doctors
had complained of being harassed and | 2:09:20 | 2:09:25 | |
discriminated against specifically
because of their conscientious | 2:09:25 | 2:09:29 | |
objection to abortion. The enquiry
also heard evidence on how career | 2:09:29 | 2:09:32 | |
progression, a point the noble lord
with so much experience in this | 2:09:32 | 2:09:38 | |
field may during his speech earlier
today, of how career progression | 2:09:38 | 2:09:44 | |
opportunities in gynaecology and
abstract checks had been limited for | 2:09:44 | 2:09:47 | |
those who wanted to exercise their
conscience -- gynaecology and | 2:09:47 | 2:09:55 | |
obstetrics. I was struck by this
from Professor John Wyatt. He told | 2:09:55 | 2:09:59 | |
us, over the last century there have
been many startling and egregious | 2:09:59 | 2:10:03 | |
cases in which the core moral
commitments of medicine have been | 2:10:03 | 2:10:07 | |
corrupted and violated because of
state coercion being exercised and | 2:10:07 | 2:10:12 | |
physicians. The vast majority of
evidence that was received accorded | 2:10:12 | 2:10:17 | |
with what John Wyatt said to us, and
recognised the importance of | 2:10:17 | 2:10:22 | |
conscience as a key part of what it
means to live in a free unfulfilled | 2:10:22 | 2:10:27 | |
society, in a diverse and democratic
society. My noble friend referred to | 2:10:27 | 2:10:33 | |
Doctor Mary Neal a senior lecturer
in Law at the University of | 2:10:33 | 2:10:37 | |
Strathclyde. I met with her earlier
this week. In her written evidence | 2:10:37 | 2:10:43 | |
she said, we should not expect
someone who believes abortion to be | 2:10:43 | 2:10:46 | |
seriously morally wrong to be
willing to participate in it in any | 2:10:46 | 2:10:54 | |
capacity and conscience provisions
should be drafted and interpreted so | 2:10:54 | 2:10:58 | |
as to protect health care
practitioners against any such | 2:10:58 | 2:11:01 | |
expectations. My Lords, at its core
this Bill is about the minority's | 2:11:01 | 2:11:08 | |
right to dissent from mainstream
opinion and to resist compelled | 2:11:08 | 2:11:11 | |
action. It prevents abuse of a
dominant position and is deeply | 2:11:11 | 2:11:15 | |
concerned with the right of
individual liberty. Most of the | 2:11:15 | 2:11:18 | |
arguments that have been advanced
during today's debate simply do not | 2:11:18 | 2:11:23 | |
stand up to scrutiny. The arguments
against the Bill. The Abortion Act | 2:11:23 | 2:11:28 | |
already limits scope of
conscientious objection, and if it | 2:11:28 | 2:11:33 | |
was working in such a pernicious way
as some have described in preventing | 2:11:33 | 2:11:39 | |
people participating in abortions it
would not enable one abortion to | 2:11:39 | 2:11:42 | |
take place every three minutes this
country, 20 every hour, over 8 | 2:11:42 | 2:11:48 | |
million since the passage of that
legislation. I don't believe that | 2:11:48 | 2:11:52 | |
argument stacks up. The state has a
duty to safeguard the conscience of | 2:11:52 | 2:11:57 | |
individual professionals as well as
providing an effective health care | 2:11:57 | 2:12:00 | |
service. The denial of conscience is
an attribute of an illiberal | 2:12:00 | 2:12:04 | |
society. It is the hallmark of an
illiberal society because it is an | 2:12:04 | 2:12:08 | |
act of coercion. A doctor, nurse or
midwife isn't a functionary or | 2:12:08 | 2:12:16 | |
automata on. I'm acutely conscious
of the high calling of the healer. | 2:12:16 | 2:12:25 | |
Hippocrates, the father of medicine,
Gates said it was an extraordinary | 2:12:25 | 2:12:33 | |
calling for the protection of human
life. As has previously been said, | 2:12:33 | 2:12:39 | |
we do not want to go to
extraordinary lengths to keep | 2:12:39 | 2:12:43 | |
someone alive who has no wish to and
her story was heartbreaking, but | 2:12:43 | 2:12:47 | |
neither should we tell doctors they
must give lethal injections to take | 2:12:47 | 2:12:52 | |
life. The bill is consistent with
the tradition of Hippocrates who | 2:12:52 | 2:12:56 | |
said, in a fundamental move away
from more primitive medical | 2:12:56 | 2:13:01 | |
traditions, there would be
prohibitions on abortion and | 2:13:01 | 2:13:04 | |
euthanasia. He refused to
accommodate those who believes that | 2:13:04 | 2:13:07 | |
care and kill could be used as
synonyms and nor does my noble | 2:13:07 | 2:13:11 | |
friend and that is why I hope that
our bill will receive a second | 2:13:11 | 2:13:15 | |
reading in neurologic's has today. I
declare interest as the new chair of | 2:13:15 | 2:13:23 | |
the Parliamentary group on sexual
and reproductive health, a position | 2:13:23 | 2:13:27 | |
I have taken over from the noble
Baroness, Baroness Gould, as I wish | 2:13:27 | 2:13:31 | |
to place on record my thanks to her
for all the work she has done in her | 2:13:31 | 2:13:36 | |
time in that position. I also, in
that capacity, had the great | 2:13:36 | 2:13:46 | |
privilege of talking to the noble
Lord, Lord steel. He could not be | 2:13:46 | 2:13:50 | |
here today. If you were, he would,
like me, seeks to vigorously oppose | 2:13:50 | 2:13:58 | |
the noble Baroness's bill and he
would have picked up the noble Lord, | 2:13:58 | 2:14:06 | |
Lord Alton, on his partial quotation
from 1967 because what the noble | 2:14:06 | 2:14:13 | |
Lord went on to say was that a
conscientious objection was written | 2:14:13 | 2:14:19 | |
into his bill but with the proviso
that no woman would be denied access | 2:14:19 | 2:14:22 | |
to the services which would then
become illegal and the thing that he | 2:14:22 | 2:14:26 | |
wanted to stay to the noble Lords
today, had he been present, is do | 2:14:26 | 2:14:31 | |
not be fooled by this bill. This is
taking us back to the early 1960s | 2:14:31 | 2:14:36 | |
when practitioners such as the
senior registrar in the West | 2:14:36 | 2:14:40 | |
Midlands effectively denied women
their legal rights. My Lords, I | 2:14:40 | 2:14:45 | |
often talk to students about the
contracting systems of the United | 2:14:45 | 2:14:51 | |
States and this country when we come
to discussing and legislating on | 2:14:51 | 2:14:59 | |
matters of morality and conscience.
I draw the contrast between the | 2:14:59 | 2:15:03 | |
United States of America where such
is the level of religiosity in | 2:15:03 | 2:15:07 | |
debate that no elected politician
can go against the prevailing | 2:15:07 | 2:15:12 | |
religious orthodoxy and therefore
they do not and matters of | 2:15:12 | 2:15:16 | |
conscience and morality are
mitigated in the courts. We in the | 2:15:16 | 2:15:20 | |
House of Lords do things rather
differently. We bring in all shades | 2:15:20 | 2:15:25 | |
of religious opinion and we debate
these matters extensively. I ask | 2:15:25 | 2:15:29 | |
them to compare and contrast the
two. I think it is right that we | 2:15:29 | 2:15:33 | |
have our system and I think it is
right that we engage in debates such | 2:15:33 | 2:15:38 | |
as these. I therefore agree with the
right reverend is that we take these | 2:15:38 | 2:15:44 | |
matters and look at them in very
informed and deliberative ways. I | 2:15:44 | 2:15:49 | |
agree with him that it is time that
we perhaps reviewed the 1967 act. It | 2:15:49 | 2:15:56 | |
was brought in 50 years ago and
times have changed, though unlike | 2:15:56 | 2:16:03 | |
him I believe it is now too
restrictive and I would wish to see | 2:16:03 | 2:16:08 | |
it liberalised. I want to take,
address this issue of conscience and | 2:16:08 | 2:16:15 | |
I listened very carefully to the
speeches of the noble Baroness Seton | 2:16:15 | 2:16:18 | |
and the noble Lord Elton. I think
somebody looking at our debate today | 2:16:18 | 2:16:24 | |
would believe that only those who
object to abortion are holders of | 2:16:24 | 2:16:31 | |
conscience and morality. I do not
believe that that is true for a | 2:16:31 | 2:16:34 | |
moment. I remember talking to the
noble Lord Stanley, a young doctor, | 2:16:34 | 2:16:38 | |
who held David Steel to... I made it
clear at the beginning that the | 2:16:38 | 2:16:45 | |
question of whether you believe in
the right or wrong of the act is | 2:16:45 | 2:16:51 | |
absolutely immaterial. What matters
is the effect on the person so I | 2:16:51 | 2:16:55 | |
attribute no beliefs to anybody. The
point that I wish to make stems | 2:16:55 | 2:17:03 | |
exactly from that. Noble Lords will
remember during the passage of the | 2:17:03 | 2:17:07 | |
same-sex marriage act, there was a
proposal that registrars should dash | 2:17:07 | 2:17:15 | |
public servants dash should
according to their conscience be | 2:17:15 | 2:17:18 | |
permitted to deny services to people
who would be married under that act, | 2:17:18 | 2:17:23 | |
the effect of that meaning that
people like me and my noble friend, | 2:17:23 | 2:17:27 | |
were we to turn up to a registry
office to register at the death of | 2:17:27 | 2:17:31 | |
our loved one would not be accorded
the same treatment and dignity as | 2:17:31 | 2:17:35 | |
any other person. I feel that, and
the noble Baroness Young talks about | 2:17:35 | 2:17:44 | |
the United States of America. I feel
that this bill is just one example | 2:17:44 | 2:17:50 | |
of a very much larger movement in
which people who are opponents of | 2:17:50 | 2:17:55 | |
certain legislation and matters of
what I would consider social | 2:17:55 | 2:18:02 | |
progress use the issue of conscience
as a proxy measure by which to | 2:18:02 | 2:18:07 | |
undermine laws which are
democratically passed. I believe | 2:18:07 | 2:18:10 | |
that that is a very, very serious
and insidious development and one | 2:18:10 | 2:18:15 | |
that we in this House should
strongly, strongly resist. This is | 2:18:15 | 2:18:20 | |
not about the clarification of
conscience, it is about the | 2:18:20 | 2:18:26 | |
extension of the rights of people to
opt out of provision of laws which | 2:18:26 | 2:18:30 | |
have been very carefully considered
and agreed in great detail in our | 2:18:30 | 2:18:38 | |
democratic institutions. I believe
that the impact of this is exactly | 2:18:38 | 2:18:42 | |
what the noble Baroness sought to
deny. She said this is not about | 2:18:42 | 2:18:49 | |
restricting access to services. It
absolutely is, my lords. We already | 2:18:49 | 2:18:53 | |
have examples of it. We have
examples in the NHS of GPs who | 2:18:53 | 2:18:59 | |
refuse to provide access to
contraceptive services. There are | 2:18:59 | 2:19:03 | |
borrowers in London where there is
no provision. What happens in those | 2:19:03 | 2:19:08 | |
circumstances? Poor woman and women
who do not have the freedom or the | 2:19:08 | 2:19:13 | |
wherewithal to travel elsewhere to
get the services suffer. This is a | 2:19:13 | 2:19:19 | |
deeply, deeply pernicious Bill and I
hope that my Lords, when we get the | 2:19:19 | 2:19:23 | |
opportunity to do so, we will vote
against it in such overwhelming | 2:19:23 | 2:19:28 | |
numbers that we put an end to the
arguments that lie behind it which I | 2:19:28 | 2:19:32 | |
believe are thoroughly disingenuous.
The end of a powerful speech. May I | 2:19:32 | 2:19:43 | |
ask her, is she delivering the line
of her party on this bill is he | 2:19:43 | 2:19:46 | |
speaking personally? I make it
absolutely clear, as in all other | 2:19:46 | 2:19:53 | |
benches, we have a variety of
beliefs on the subject and what I | 2:19:53 | 2:19:57 | |
think I can say in all clear
conscience is that I represent the | 2:19:57 | 2:20:01 | |
majority of my colleagues in this
debate. Was able question from me, | 2:20:01 | 2:20:09 | |
to clarify what I think she said. Am
I right in thinking that she said | 2:20:09 | 2:20:16 | |
that in medical practitioner who has
a conscientious objection to helping | 2:20:16 | 2:20:21 | |
with an abortion would still have to
to help with an abortion if that was | 2:20:21 | 2:20:28 | |
necessary? Because that is what I
understood she said. For the | 2:20:28 | 2:20:34 | |
avoidance of doubt, I am in
agreement with the statements that | 2:20:34 | 2:20:37 | |
were made in the court judgment in
2016 that's no practitioner needs to | 2:20:37 | 2:20:47 | |
be compelled to take part in the
hands on offering of a procedure but | 2:20:47 | 2:20:51 | |
they cannot indirectly deny women
access to treatment to which they | 2:20:51 | 2:20:57 | |
are legally entitled. My Lords, in
many ways, the noble Lords kind of | 2:20:57 | 2:21:10 | |
gave the game away rather about this
particular piece of legislation. | 2:21:10 | 2:21:15 | |
That it is in fact an opposition to
a whole range of legislation, | 2:21:15 | 2:21:20 | |
abortion rights, human fertilisation
and embryology, the equality act, | 2:21:20 | 2:21:24 | |
several others that have been
referred to. In fact, when I read | 2:21:24 | 2:21:29 | |
this bill, the words wolf in sheep's
clothing into my mind. I think I | 2:21:29 | 2:21:35 | |
need to, from the outset, that MUSIC
Make the Labour Party's position on | 2:21:35 | 2:21:39 | |
this clear.
We will not oppose the bill at | 2:21:39 | 2:21:45 | |
second reading but only because that
is the customs practice of this | 2:21:45 | 2:21:49 | |
House. However, this proposal flies
in the face of our party policy and, | 2:21:49 | 2:21:54 | |
indeed, much of the legislation it
seeks change we put on the statute | 2:21:54 | 2:21:58 | |
books or supported being put on the
statute books. I will read from the | 2:21:58 | 2:22:03 | |
front bench the opposition to the
proposals it contains. I find myself | 2:22:03 | 2:22:09 | |
in agreement with Baroness Young,
Lord Browne and several others. And | 2:22:09 | 2:22:25 | |
Baroness Richardson, who I commend
for moving a very appropriate | 2:22:25 | 2:22:29 | |
contribution. There is no doubt... I
would also like to add to the Bishop | 2:22:29 | 2:22:42 | |
of Peterborough, right reverend, the
word I look for in his contribution | 2:22:42 | 2:22:48 | |
is the word equalities and the
reason I looked for that is because | 2:22:48 | 2:22:53 | |
this House and many of us struggled
with how to reflect conscience and | 2:22:53 | 2:22:59 | |
help to ensure equalities and I
think I would ask the right reverend | 2:22:59 | 2:23:04 | |
to reflect on that because many of
the proposals in this bill will | 2:23:04 | 2:23:10 | |
affect LGBT rights and the rights of
other groups. Because he is wise in | 2:23:10 | 2:23:14 | |
his ways, I think it is also
necessary for him to reflect on the | 2:23:14 | 2:23:23 | |
fact that this bill will restrict
rights to abortion and other | 2:23:23 | 2:23:26 | |
procedures. It will dramatically
extends the scope of conscientious | 2:23:26 | 2:23:31 | |
objection, increasing the number of
medical procedures to which it could | 2:23:31 | 2:23:35 | |
apply under law, increasing the
types of professional to which it | 2:23:35 | 2:23:38 | |
would apply and expanding the
activities which would be applicable | 2:23:38 | 2:23:41 | |
from abortion to IVF and the
withdrawal of end of life care. The | 2:23:41 | 2:23:46 | |
reason it is significant is that it
represents a new front in the | 2:23:46 | 2:23:50 | |
attempt to undermine our equalities
laws to extend the number of areas | 2:23:50 | 2:23:56 | |
were conscientious objection can be
used to refuse to provide state | 2:23:56 | 2:23:59 | |
services. In this case, the
extension proposed in the bill is so | 2:23:59 | 2:24:02 | |
radical it has the potential to have
a real impact on everything from | 2:24:02 | 2:24:06 | |
obstetrics to gynaecology provision
to geriatric care, care in chronic | 2:24:06 | 2:24:12 | |
and terminal conditions. I believe,
like others, that the reason the | 2:24:12 | 2:24:17 | |
bill is being brought is because
there was a case of midwives who are | 2:24:17 | 2:24:22 | |
being referred to who lost in the
Supreme Court. They lost a case | 2:24:22 | 2:24:26 | |
where they wanted the right to
refuse to supervise staff who | 2:24:26 | 2:24:30 | |
performed abortions and reversed
patients to staff who did not | 2:24:30 | 2:24:35 | |
object. The judgment has already
been mentioned and I will not repeat | 2:24:35 | 2:24:41 | |
that now, but it is a judgment which
I think was wise in its wake. I also | 2:24:41 | 2:24:46 | |
agree with the noble Baroness Barker
that I think this private members | 2:24:46 | 2:24:52 | |
bill follows a trend we have seen in
America with the introduction of | 2:24:52 | 2:24:56 | |
state legislation to undermine LGBT
and other equality laws with an | 2:24:56 | 2:25:02 | |
increase of so-called conscientious
objection opt outs. We believe the | 2:25:02 | 2:25:10 | |
current provisions of conscientious
objections which cover the refusal | 2:25:10 | 2:25:15 | |
to perform certain activities are
balanced and working practice. All | 2:25:15 | 2:25:19 | |
the medical professional body
support the legal provision of | 2:25:19 | 2:25:22 | |
conscientious objection to allow
health care professionals to | 2:25:22 | 2:25:25 | |
practice in line with their personal
beliefs alongside the guidelines | 2:25:25 | 2:25:28 | |
that make clear the obligations of
an individual with a conscientious | 2:25:28 | 2:25:32 | |
objection to ensure that their
patient has access to appropriate | 2:25:32 | 2:25:37 | |
care. I will not repeat what is in
the abortion act of 1967 section for | 2:25:37 | 2:25:46 | |
because many noble Lords have
referred to that but it works. Ditto | 2:25:46 | 2:25:51 | |
the human fertilisation and
embryology act of 1990 along the | 2:25:51 | 2:25:54 | |
same lines. It allows individuals to
opt out of providing fertility | 2:25:54 | 2:26:01 | |
treatment, the storage of human
eggs, sperm and embryos and early | 2:26:01 | 2:26:06 | |
research. Parliaments did not have
in mind when it passed this | 2:26:06 | 2:26:12 | |
legislation that hospital managers
who decide to offer abortion | 2:26:12 | 2:26:16 | |
services, the administrator who
decide how best the service can be | 2:26:16 | 2:26:19 | |
organised, the caterers who provide
the food, the cleaners who provide a | 2:26:19 | 2:26:25 | |
safe and hygienic environment, those
were not the people in mind when | 2:26:25 | 2:26:30 | |
this legislation was drawn up. I
would like to thank the | 2:26:30 | 2:26:33 | |
organisations who sent me the many
briefing and materials including the | 2:26:33 | 2:26:38 | |
library. I have, however, to say
that I thought the brief from the | 2:26:38 | 2:26:44 | |
library was not complete and was not
balanced and that is an issue that I | 2:26:44 | 2:26:48 | |
have raised with them and, in a way,
maybe it is better if our extremely | 2:26:48 | 2:26:55 | |
good, excellent and brilliant
researchers who opts to stay out of | 2:26:55 | 2:27:00 | |
this area when the providing briefs
for noble Lords because it is | 2:27:00 | 2:27:03 | |
dangerous territory for them to
enter. But that being said, I think | 2:27:03 | 2:27:10 | |
that they do an excellent job. I
believe, and we believe, that the | 2:27:10 | 2:27:16 | |
current law and practice works, that
the recent testing in the court is | 2:27:16 | 2:27:22 | |
further evidence that that is so and
I hope that the Government will also | 2:27:22 | 2:27:25 | |
be able to say that they believe the
current legal framework and practice | 2:27:25 | 2:27:30 | |
works. This is the position that we
support. This is the position that | 2:27:30 | 2:27:34 | |
we will continue to support. | 2:27:34 | 2:27:40 | |
My Lords, I congratulate the noble
Baroness for securing this second | 2:27:40 | 2:27:45 | |
reading debate on her Bill. The Bill
aims to clarify the extent to which | 2:27:45 | 2:27:50 | |
a medical practitioner with a
conscientious objection may refrain | 2:27:50 | 2:27:55 | |
from participating in certain
activities relating to abortion | 2:27:55 | 2:27:59 | |
care. Assisted reproduction and
fertility treatment, and withdrawal | 2:27:59 | 2:28:04 | |
of life-sustaining treatment. As is
usual when it comes to the sensitive | 2:28:04 | 2:28:09 | |
matters, the government is taking a
neutral approach to the Bill. It is | 2:28:09 | 2:28:14 | |
of course right, as the Baroness
mentioned in her speech and also the | 2:28:14 | 2:28:19 | |
right reverend bishop of
Peterborough, it is of course right | 2:28:19 | 2:28:26 | |
that medical practitioners and other
health professionals should have | 2:28:26 | 2:28:30 | |
their personal beliefs respected.
And as broad mentioned, the to | 2:28:30 | 2:28:35 | |
object to participate in treatment
is enshrined in the Abortion Act | 2:28:35 | 2:28:42 | |
1967, and the Human Fertilisation
and Embryology Act 1990. I feel I | 2:28:42 | 2:28:51 | |
should add, while medical
practitioners are within their | 2:28:51 | 2:28:53 | |
rights to refrain from participating
in certain medical activities on the | 2:28:53 | 2:28:58 | |
basis of conscientious objection,
this should of course cause no | 2:28:58 | 2:29:01 | |
detriment or barriers to the care
patients are entitled to. Section | 2:29:01 | 2:29:06 | |
four of the Abortion Act allows
those with a conscientious objection | 2:29:06 | 2:29:13 | |
to opt out and I quote
"Participating in treatment | 2:29:13 | 2:29:18 | |
authorised by the Act, unless that
treatment is immediately necessary | 2:29:18 | 2:29:23 | |
to save the life or prevent grave
permanent injury to the physical and | 2:29:23 | 2:29:27 | |
mental health of a pregnant woman" | 2:29:27 | 2:29:30 | |
permanent injury to the physical and
mental health of a pregnant woman". | 2:29:30 | 2:29:32 | |
The Baroness mentioned private
clinics and interestingly two thirds | 2:29:32 | 2:29:35 | |
of abortions are carried out by the
independent sector, where staff | 2:29:35 | 2:29:39 | |
actively choose to work in relation
to abortion care. My Lords, the | 2:29:39 | 2:29:47 | |
courts including most recently the
Supreme Court have considered | 2:29:47 | 2:29:50 | |
whether participants in treatment
should include an ciliary activities | 2:29:50 | 2:29:54 | |
to the actual procedure such as
managing ward resources, supervising | 2:29:54 | 2:30:02 | |
other staff and providing
post-operative care to women on the | 2:30:02 | 2:30:04 | |
ward. The Supreme Court held that
participate should be construed | 2:30:04 | 2:30:12 | |
narrowly and the provision should
only cover those activities which | 2:30:12 | 2:30:21 | |
involve actually taking part in the
termination procedure. Section 38 of | 2:30:21 | 2:30:29 | |
the Human Fertilisation and
Embryology Act regulates the | 2:30:29 | 2:30:31 | |
provision of certain fertility
treatments and services and research | 2:30:31 | 2:30:35 | |
involving the use of human embryos.
It already allows staff to withdraw | 2:30:35 | 2:30:40 | |
from participation in an activity
covered by the Act if they have a | 2:30:40 | 2:30:46 | |
conscientious objection to that
activity. However, similar to the | 2:30:46 | 2:30:51 | |
Abortion Act, the Act doesn't define
participation. The department | 2:30:51 | 2:30:55 | |
therefore relies upon guidance
issued by regulatory bodies. This | 2:30:55 | 2:31:03 | |
helps ensure the rights for
conscientious objection are | 2:31:03 | 2:31:09 | |
exercised within the parameters set
up by the current legislation and in | 2:31:09 | 2:31:12 | |
line with the principles of good
medical practice. In addition, the | 2:31:12 | 2:31:18 | |
nine regulatory bodies that regulate
health and care professionals in the | 2:31:18 | 2:31:21 | |
UK each have their own publication
which sets out the standards and | 2:31:21 | 2:31:28 | |
behaviour and conduct expected of
the professionals on their register. | 2:31:28 | 2:31:33 | |
The Act provides protection for all
staff who feel unable to take part | 2:31:33 | 2:31:36 | |
in an activity regulated by the Act
to which they have a conscientious | 2:31:36 | 2:31:41 | |
objection. My Lords, moving onto end
of life care. Life-sustaining | 2:31:41 | 2:31:49 | |
medical treatment is to benefit the
patient by restoring maintaining | 2:31:49 | 2:31:55 | |
health as far as possible. If
however all suitable treatments fail | 2:31:55 | 2:32:00 | |
or cease to provide benefit to the
patient, they may ethically and | 2:32:00 | 2:32:04 | |
legally be withheld or withdrawn and
the focus of treatment changed the | 2:32:04 | 2:32:09 | |
relief of symptoms. As noble lord
Snow, in practice the decision to | 2:32:09 | 2:32:15 | |
withhold or withdraw life-sustaining
treatment is often very difficult. | 2:32:15 | 2:32:19 | |
It is also very stressful for the
patient's' family and staff. The | 2:32:19 | 2:32:28 | |
Baroness Richardson talked movingly
about her experiences with the | 2:32:28 | 2:32:30 | |
treatment of her husband. Guidance
from the GMC states that doctors can | 2:32:30 | 2:32:37 | |
withdraw from providing care if
there beliefs about providing | 2:32:37 | 2:32:43 | |
treatment lead to object to
complying with either a patient's | 2:32:43 | 2:32:47 | |
decision to refuse such treatment or
a decision that providing such | 2:32:47 | 2:32:53 | |
treatment is not of overall benefit
to a patient who lacks capacity to | 2:32:53 | 2:32:57 | |
decide. However, as Baroness Meacher
mentioned the guidance is also | 2:32:57 | 2:33:03 | |
explicit that doctors must first
ensure that arrangements have been | 2:33:03 | 2:33:07 | |
made for another doctor to take over
their role and it is not acceptable | 2:33:07 | 2:33:12 | |
to withdraw from -- withdraw the
patient's care if this would leave | 2:33:12 | 2:33:18 | |
them with nowhere to turn. Baroness
Young and the Lord mentioned the | 2:33:18 | 2:33:26 | |
importance of patient's views and
the government's commitment to | 2:33:26 | 2:33:32 | |
everyone at the end of life is to
focus on the perspective of the | 2:33:32 | 2:33:35 | |
dying person and those important to
them. Before I end I just want to | 2:33:35 | 2:33:41 | |
answer a couple of questions that
were raised. The Bishop of | 2:33:41 | 2:33:46 | |
Peterborough mentioned pharmacists.
The GPA agency which is the general | 2:33:46 | 2:33:55 | |
pharmaceutical Council informed us
they are currently analysing the | 2:33:55 | 2:34:01 | |
responses to their recent
consultation on religion, personal | 2:34:01 | 2:34:05 | |
values and beliefs in delivering
care. They will then make | 2:34:05 | 2:34:14 | |
recommendations. My noble friend
asked if there was data on the | 2:34:14 | 2:34:24 | |
numbers of conscientious objectors
and the data is not held centrally | 2:34:24 | 2:34:26 | |
on the numbers of staff with these
views. As Baroness Meacher said, | 2:34:26 | 2:34:34 | |
these are difficult and challenging
issues and I have listened with | 2:34:34 | 2:34:39 | |
interest to the range of views
expressed today. I'd like to join | 2:34:39 | 2:34:43 | |
the noble Lords in paying tribute to
the noble Baroness for bringing | 2:34:43 | 2:34:48 | |
forward the Bill and highlighting
the complex issues. I've heard and | 2:34:48 | 2:34:53 | |
taken note of all the noble Lords
have said today and I know the | 2:34:53 | 2:34:58 | |
Department want to reflect on the
points raised. I thank her and other | 2:34:58 | 2:35:03 | |
noble Lords for their contribution
on this important issue. I would | 2:35:03 | 2:35:08 | |
like to thank all those who took
part in this debate, it has been an | 2:35:08 | 2:35:12 | |
interesting and challenging debate.
If I could first of all address the | 2:35:12 | 2:35:16 | |
issue raised by the noble Baroness
Baroness Barker and noble Baroness | 2:35:16 | 2:35:21 | |
Baroness Thornton, I can report that
at the very end of the report stage | 2:35:21 | 2:35:31 | |
when a House of Commons debated
possible amendments, David steel MP | 2:35:31 | 2:35:38 | |
said "It also gives nurses and
hospital employees a clear right to | 2:35:38 | 2:35:42 | |
opt out. That is what David Steele
said. I'd like to just say a word | 2:35:42 | 2:35:47 | |
about what this Bill does not do.
This is a very serious issue. It | 2:35:47 | 2:35:57 | |
doesn't remove patient
decision-making in any respect. I'd | 2:35:57 | 2:36:00 | |
like to assure them it's not about
abandoning patients or their | 2:36:00 | 2:36:05 | |
families, it's not about causing
them to suffer. It's not about | 2:36:05 | 2:36:09 | |
forcing people to be treated against
their will. The terrible experience | 2:36:09 | 2:36:18 | |
Baroness Richardson which I think
the whole house would want to | 2:36:18 | 2:36:21 | |
express their sympathy was bad
medical practice. It's not about | 2:36:21 | 2:36:25 | |
restricting access to abortion, it's
not about allowing patients to force | 2:36:25 | 2:36:29 | |
medical professionals to do
anything, it's not about seeking to | 2:36:29 | 2:36:34 | |
reject or deny the welfare and
wishes of patients. It's not about | 2:36:34 | 2:36:39 | |
depriving people of the right to
reject treatment or to refuse | 2:36:39 | 2:36:44 | |
consent to treatment. It's not about
the merits or otherwise of abortion, | 2:36:44 | 2:36:49 | |
fertility treatment or the
withdrawal of treatment at the end | 2:36:49 | 2:36:55 | |
of life. It would not have a
negative aspect on hospice care. I | 2:36:55 | 2:36:59 | |
watched my brother-in-law die in the
hours before his death from Moti | 2:36:59 | 2:37:04 | |
nearing disease, and I watched him
lying in of moving -- motor neurone | 2:37:04 | 2:37:11 | |
disease. Before he accepted what was
suggested, having satisfied himself | 2:37:11 | 2:37:19 | |
it was in accordance with his
conscience. He died shortly | 2:37:19 | 2:37:24 | |
afterwards. My Lords, this Bill
would not deny others that right. | 2:37:24 | 2:37:29 | |
This Bill would provide a right of
conscientious objection to those who | 2:37:29 | 2:37:34 | |
genuinely object to engaging in
particular medical situations. It's | 2:37:34 | 2:37:38 | |
about highlighting the fact the
responsibility to provide the | 2:37:38 | 2:37:42 | |
National Health Service care is the
responsibility of the health service | 2:37:42 | 2:37:45 | |
and not of the individual employee.
It's about according staff statutory | 2:37:45 | 2:37:58 | |
protection to those who do not have
it, because the right to | 2:37:58 | 2:38:03 | |
conscientious objection is not a
universal right accorded to all | 2:38:03 | 2:38:07 | |
medical practitioners by statutes
under the Abortion Act. It does not | 2:38:07 | 2:38:13 | |
protect, for example, GPs and
pharmacists. It is about allowing | 2:38:13 | 2:38:18 | |
medical practitioners to act in
accordance with their conscience. It | 2:38:18 | 2:38:22 | |
is about recognising that people who
have a fundamental objection to | 2:38:22 | 2:38:27 | |
doing something should not be forced
to arrange others to do it. It is | 2:38:27 | 2:38:31 | |
about making the health service
inclusive, so that all medical | 2:38:31 | 2:38:38 | |
practitioners can take their
rightful place in the discipline of | 2:38:38 | 2:38:40 | |
their choice rather than being
restricted to areas in which they | 2:38:40 | 2:38:48 | |
can work, or alternatively being
forced to leave the UK. It is, as | 2:38:48 | 2:38:52 | |
the noble lord said, about asserting
that it is not necessary or right to | 2:38:52 | 2:39:02 | |
force people to do things which they
hold to be wrong. It is about | 2:39:02 | 2:39:08 | |
legislating to ensure that we have
the best possible health service, | 2:39:08 | 2:39:13 | |
staffed by the best possible medical
practitioners, providing the service | 2:39:13 | 2:39:17 | |
in accordance with the wishes of the
patient and capable of accommodating | 2:39:17 | 2:39:24 | |
the conscientious objection of
medical practitioners. My lord, | 2:39:24 | 2:39:27 | |
there seems to be a slight
disconnect in that a suggestion is | 2:39:27 | 2:39:32 | |
that word this Bill to be passed it
would be impossible to provide | 2:39:32 | 2:39:37 | |
services to people. It would be
interesting to know how many | 2:39:37 | 2:39:41 | |
conscientious objections there are
but the evidence would suggest that | 2:39:41 | 2:39:45 | |
this Bill would not deprive people
of treatment. I ask the House is | 2:39:45 | 2:39:50 | |
therefore to give this Bill a second
reading. The question is that this | 2:39:50 | 2:39:55 | |
Bill be now be read a second time.
As many of that opinion site | 2:39:55 | 2:40:03 | |
content, the country not content.
The contents habit. I beg that this | 2:40:03 | 2:40:08 | |
Bill be moved to the committee of
the whole house. As many as are of | 2:40:08 | 2:40:14 | |
that opinion say content. And the
country not content. The content's | 2:40:14 | 2:40:19 | |
have it. Second reading of the
registration of marriage Bill, the | 2:40:19 | 2:40:26 | |
Bishop of St Albans. I beg to move
that this Bill now be read a second | 2:40:26 | 2:40:37 | |
time. My Lords, the purpose of this
Bill is to correct a clear and | 2:40:37 | 2:40:41 | |
historic injustice. When a couple is
married, and that marriage is | 2:40:41 | 2:40:49 | |
registered, there is currently only
provision for a father 's name to be | 2:40:49 | 2:40:54 | |
recorded. This is an archaic
practice and unchanged since | 2:40:54 | 2:41:00 | |
Victorian times when children were
seen as a father's property and | 2:41:00 | 2:41:05 | |
little consideration was given to
mother's roles in raising children. | 2:41:05 | 2:41:11 | |
As we approach the centenary of the
representation of the people act, | 2:41:11 | 2:41:15 | |
it's only right that we consider how
existing legislation excludes or | 2:41:15 | 2:41:21 | |
doesn't recognise the contribution
paid by women. This Bill allows for | 2:41:21 | 2:41:27 | |
this important and symbolic change
to be made. I'm a bishop in the | 2:41:27 | 2:41:33 | |
Church of England and I think it's
important to note that this Bill | 2:41:33 | 2:41:35 | |
will allow mother's names to be
included when registering all | 2:41:35 | 2:41:40 | |
marriages, not just those taking
place in Church of England churches. | 2:41:40 | 2:41:46 | |
I also wish to draw attention to an
identical bill in the other place by | 2:41:46 | 2:41:53 | |
Dame Caroline Spelman. We are hoping
that between us appropriate time | 2:41:53 | 2:41:59 | |
will be given so that this change
can be made. A marriage officially | 2:41:59 | 2:42:05 | |
recognises the start of the new
company. Including parents' names on | 2:42:05 | 2:42:09 | |
marriage registers gives children
the opportunity to recognise the | 2:42:09 | 2:42:17 | |
contribution of their parents in
bringing them to that day. It is | 2:42:17 | 2:42:20 | |
only right that mothers are
recognised in their role just as | 2:42:20 | 2:42:25 | |
much as fathers. Unsurprisingly, as
many members of this House are | 2:42:25 | 2:42:29 | |
aware, calls for reform of this
system of marriage registration are | 2:42:29 | 2:42:35 | |
not new. Indeed, in August 2014,
then Prime Minister David Cameron | 2:42:35 | 2:42:40 | |
announced his support for a move to
facilitate the inclusion of a' names | 2:42:40 | 2:42:46 | |
on marriage registers and members in
the other place from all major | 2:42:46 | 2:42:52 | |
parties have supported early day
motions in favour of the change. | 2:42:52 | 2:42:56 | |
Much to the amusement of the staff
in my office, and number of | 2:42:56 | 2:43:00 | |
magazines written for what you might
call the stylish woman have been | 2:43:00 | 2:43:06 | |
interested and supported my bill,
but that should not be surprising. I | 2:43:06 | 2:43:10 | |
imagine many members of this House
who have either been married | 2:43:10 | 2:43:13 | |
themselves or had their children get
married will have been shocked that | 2:43:13 | 2:43:18 | |
only the child's father's details
are recorded. As someone who has | 2:43:18 | 2:43:23 | |
performed hundreds of marriages, it
seems to me all the unreasonable | 2:43:23 | 2:43:28 | |
mothers are systematically
overlooked on this special occasion. | 2:43:28 | 2:43:32 | |
The Church welcomes this change and
has been working with the Home | 2:43:32 | 2:43:36 | |
Office and General register office
on the finer points of | 2:43:36 | 2:43:39 | |
implementation for many years. We
have also solicited feedback from | 2:43:39 | 2:43:42 | |
the Dean of the archdeacons and
diocesan registrar 's. Interestingly | 2:43:42 | 2:43:49 | |
I have received a great deal of
correspondence from genealogists who | 2:43:49 | 2:43:53 | |
are anxious for this change to be
made. They find the current system | 2:43:53 | 2:43:59 | |
of registration very frustrating as
it only registers one half of the | 2:43:59 | 2:44:02 | |
family tree. I believe that the bill
I have put forward is the best way | 2:44:02 | 2:44:10 | |
to enact this necessary change. But
unfortunately enacting the change is | 2:44:10 | 2:44:15 | |
not as simple as creating another
box for mothers' names on marriage | 2:44:15 | 2:44:20 | |
certificates, as has previously been
proposed. Doing so would require | 2:44:20 | 2:44:24 | |
84,000 hard copy marriage registers
located around the country to be | 2:44:24 | 2:44:31 | |
replaced at a cost of roughly £3
million. It would also not solve the | 2:44:31 | 2:44:36 | |
problems that arise when 84,000 hard
copy registers serve as the formal | 2:44:36 | 2:44:43 | |
legal record. Books can be easily
lost or damaged and an opportunity | 2:44:43 | 2:44:48 | |
for fraud exists where blank
registers and certificate stock are | 2:44:48 | 2:44:53 | |
stolen. Thus, the bill also provides
for marriages to be registered | 2:44:53 | 2:45:00 | |
electronically, as already exists in
Scotland and Northern Ireland. The | 2:45:00 | 2:45:04 | |
General registry office already have
a system for this sort of electronic | 2:45:04 | 2:45:07 | |
registration and apart from setup
costs, no wheels need to be | 2:45:07 | 2:45:12 | |
reinvented. Before I outline some
further details of the bill, I would | 2:45:12 | 2:45:20 | |
like to outline what the bill does
not intend to do. The bill does not | 2:45:20 | 2:45:24 | |
alter those who can get married,
where they can get married, all who | 2:45:24 | 2:45:28 | |
can perform that marriage. The bill
does not propose any changes to | 2:45:28 | 2:45:33 | |
marriage ceremonies or the Church of
England's doctrine of marriage. | 2:45:33 | 2:45:38 | |
These are far greater questions but
they all fall outside the scope of | 2:45:38 | 2:45:44 | |
this quite narrowly focused bill. I
understand some members of this | 2:45:44 | 2:45:49 | |
House may have strong feelings on
some of the other issues, but | 2:45:49 | 2:45:54 | |
respectfully submit that I hope
these concerns will not get in the | 2:45:54 | 2:45:57 | |
way of this simple and important
change being made that many people | 2:45:57 | 2:46:01 | |
have wanted for such a long time. I
would also like to comment on the | 2:46:01 | 2:46:05 | |
way in which this change will be
enacted. It has been drawn to my | 2:46:05 | 2:46:10 | |
attention that there may be some
anxiety either in this House or the | 2:46:10 | 2:46:14 | |
other place about the power this
bill grants the Secretary of State | 2:46:14 | 2:46:21 | |
to make provision in relation to the
registration of marriages in England | 2:46:21 | 2:46:23 | |
and Wales by regulation. Concern has
been expressed this constitutes a | 2:46:23 | 2:46:30 | |
Henry VIII clause. Before your
lordships take a view on the | 2:46:30 | 2:46:34 | |
constitutional appropriateness of
the power provided for in the bill, | 2:46:34 | 2:46:38 | |
I would humbly submit the port is
very banded in clause one and the | 2:46:38 | 2:46:46 | |
explanatory notes. The powers
enacted are simply those required to | 2:46:46 | 2:46:51 | |
make this change in the simplest and
most logical manner possible. I'm | 2:46:51 | 2:46:57 | |
also extremely grateful to all the
members who have come to speak in | 2:46:57 | 2:47:01 | |
today's debate and I hope that I
will gain their support soap | 2:47:01 | 2:47:04 | |
necessary change can be made. My
Lords, beg to move. The question is | 2:47:04 | 2:47:11 | |
that this bill be read a second
time. May I gently remind those | 2:47:11 | 2:47:16 | |
taking part in this debate of the
advisory backbench speaking time and | 2:47:16 | 2:47:19 | |
urge them to follow the excellent
example of the right reverend. My | 2:47:19 | 2:47:26 | |
Lords I congratulate the right
reverend for bringing forward this | 2:47:26 | 2:47:30 | |
bill and for his explanation of the
purpose and cruises. I warmly | 2:47:30 | 2:47:34 | |
welcome the bill itself. We are
advised that the Home Office | 2:47:34 | 2:47:37 | |
assisted in the drafting of the
explanatory notes and I hope | 2:47:37 | 2:47:41 | |
therefore that this means that when
my noble friend the Minister comes | 2:47:41 | 2:47:45 | |
to respond, she will be able to
indicate first the Government's | 2:47:45 | 2:47:49 | |
support for the bill and also
explain how that support will be | 2:47:49 | 2:47:52 | |
demonstrated. As the right reverend
set up, for almost two centuries | 2:47:52 | 2:48:00 | |
wedding certificates have featured
the names and occupations of the | 2:48:00 | 2:48:03 | |
spouses and names and occupation of
their fathers. Today we have the | 2:48:03 | 2:48:07 | |
chance to begin the work to ensure
that the details of the couples' | 2:48:07 | 2:48:13 | |
mothers can be included, too, on a
new online schedule based system. | 2:48:13 | 2:48:17 | |
This bill indeed put right what most
people would be astonished can still | 2:48:17 | 2:48:22 | |
be the case in 2018, that the
father's details can be recorded for | 2:48:22 | 2:48:27 | |
posterity but not the mother's.
There has been cross-party work on | 2:48:27 | 2:48:40 | |
this for some years to achieve the
move towards equality in the | 2:48:40 | 2:48:42 | |
registration of details on marriage
in England and Wales. However, in | 2:48:42 | 2:48:45 | |
the past, as the right reverend set
out in detail, it was argued | 2:48:45 | 2:48:47 | |
changing certificates would be too
expensive and it is indeed a matter | 2:48:47 | 2:48:50 | |
that would mean producing hard
copies of the registers if we were | 2:48:50 | 2:48:55 | |
simply to go ahead without
legislation and without | 2:48:55 | 2:48:59 | |
consideration of cost. Adding the
mother's name would mean producing | 2:48:59 | 2:49:04 | |
those hard copy registers at an
estimated cost of £3 million. The | 2:49:04 | 2:49:08 | |
solution, therefore, to create a
digital register, is most welcome, | 2:49:08 | 2:49:15 | |
it removes the objection on cost
grounds. The bill also has a | 2:49:15 | 2:49:19 | |
practical impact, it removes the
opportunity for criminal gangs to | 2:49:19 | 2:49:24 | |
steal blank registers and
certificate stock to create a false | 2:49:24 | 2:49:28 | |
identity. I note that the impact
assessment itself was prepared back | 2:49:28 | 2:49:34 | |
in October 2015 and states that in
the previous 12 months there had | 2:49:34 | 2:49:38 | |
been 12 burglaries in church
buildings, causing the loss of | 2:49:38 | 2:49:42 | |
marriage registers and certificate
stock. Can the right reverend all my | 2:49:42 | 2:49:47 | |
noble friend the Minister update the
house on those figures for the | 2:49:47 | 2:49:50 | |
period since October 2015? I only
have one further question but I | 2:49:50 | 2:49:55 | |
would be great for the right
reverend might address when he | 2:49:55 | 2:49:58 | |
responds to the debate, I wonder
whether he might say just a little | 2:49:58 | 2:50:03 | |
about the powers conferred by
regulations in clause one? Indeed, | 2:50:03 | 2:50:09 | |
subsection four Npower was the
Secretary of State to amend the | 2:50:09 | 2:50:12 | |
marriage act 1949 to create a
specific criminal offence aimed at | 2:50:12 | 2:50:17 | |
enforcing the registration of
marriage. It passes the book, so to | 2:50:17 | 2:50:19 | |
speak. This House has recently
expressed its concern in debate on | 2:50:19 | 2:50:28 | |
the Government bill about new
criminal offences being created by | 2:50:28 | 2:50:31 | |
regulations and I would not wish to
see any difficulty in passing this | 2:50:31 | 2:50:36 | |
bill and therefore would be grateful
if the right reverend could take | 2:50:36 | 2:50:39 | |
this opportunity to dispel any
concerns others might have. My | 2:50:39 | 2:50:45 | |
Lords, I also congratulate my right
honourable friend Dame Caroline | 2:50:45 | 2:50:48 | |
Spelman for her work on this matter
and for securing a debate for the | 2:50:48 | 2:50:51 | |
second reading in the other place.
There has been some puzzlement, I | 2:50:51 | 2:50:55 | |
know, in the press about why there
are two bills. As a | 2:50:55 | 2:51:08 | |
past Chief Whip, I'm not in the
slightest puzzled. It is wise for | 2:51:18 | 2:51:20 | |
the right reverend and my noble
friend, my right honourable friend, | 2:51:20 | 2:51:22 | |
to take this course, because it has
several advantages, ones I wish I | 2:51:22 | 2:51:25 | |
had taken when I put forward a
Private Members Bell. It gives a | 2:51:25 | 2:51:28 | |
greater chance of securing not only
a second reading debate but | 2:51:28 | 2:51:30 | |
smoothing successful passage of the
bill. It gives an early indication | 2:51:30 | 2:51:32 | |
of the strength of support in both
houses. And it can identify and | 2:51:32 | 2:51:35 | |
address any concerns expressed by
parliamentarians. Because, as we | 2:51:35 | 2:51:37 | |
know, Private Members Bell boss Bill
's based notoriously choppy waters | 2:51:37 | 2:51:40 | |
as their sponsors seek to make
progress to Royal assent. In another | 2:51:40 | 2:51:44 | |
place there has often been an
objection to Lord starters being | 2:51:44 | 2:51:50 | |
passed simply because they originate
from an unelected house. A single | 2:51:50 | 2:51:55 | |
cry of no is enough to kill a bill
out right at second reading. That | 2:51:55 | 2:51:59 | |
happened to my bill when I sponsored
a National Heritage bill in 2001, | 2:51:59 | 2:52:04 | |
having had good scrutiny in this
House it passed to the Commons, | 2:52:04 | 2:52:09 | |
where it was summarily rejected. But
that was not the end of the story, I | 2:52:09 | 2:52:13 | |
had a great sponsor in Sir Sydney
Chapman, he did not give up, shall | 2:52:13 | 2:52:17 | |
we say he spoke to the people
concerned against the bill and they | 2:52:17 | 2:52:23 | |
change their mind. Another date was
bound and it became a national | 2:52:23 | 2:52:27 | |
heritage act. So, my Lords, I hope
the cross-party support for the bill | 2:52:27 | 2:52:31 | |
and the fact it has a number two
Bill tabled in the Commons will | 2:52:31 | 2:52:34 | |
ensure that nobody seeks to jettison
this bill when, as I hope it will, | 2:52:34 | 2:52:39 | |
it reaches another place. I wish it
and untroubled and speedy passage. | 2:52:39 | 2:52:46 | |
My Lords, I have pleasure in
supporting the Registration of | 2:52:46 | 2:52:50 | |
Marriage bill and hope it receives a
smooth passage through Parliament. | 2:52:50 | 2:52:54 | |
And I thank the right reverend the
Bishop of St Albans for initiating | 2:52:54 | 2:53:00 | |
the bill and particularly for his
clear exposition of the case. As he | 2:53:00 | 2:53:06 | |
mentioned genealogist, I should
perhaps declare my interest as a | 2:53:06 | 2:53:09 | |
fully paid-up member of
findmypast.com. I speak as an | 2:53:09 | 2:53:21 | |
outsider, I was married in Peckham
registry office and have no direct | 2:53:21 | 2:53:24 | |
experience of the process he
described, I am not a member of a | 2:53:24 | 2:53:28 | |
church and if civil partnerships had
been available to heterosexual | 2:53:28 | 2:53:32 | |
couples, that would have been my
personal preference. It is fair to | 2:53:32 | 2:53:36 | |
say that preparing for this debate
has been a complete education for | 2:53:36 | 2:53:42 | |
me, both fascinating and
exasperating. How does it take so | 2:53:42 | 2:53:47 | |
long to do anything in this country?
I was fantasising that if we had | 2:53:47 | 2:53:53 | |
given the job of sorting the
bureaucracy surrounding marriage to | 2:53:53 | 2:53:58 | |
the Brexiteers, it would have kept
them out of mischief for a decade. I | 2:53:58 | 2:54:06 | |
see there have been noble attempt in
the recent past to change things, | 2:54:06 | 2:54:09 | |
they have all failed, probably
because of a combination of too | 2:54:09 | 2:54:14 | |
little Parliamentary time, too
little priority, and possibly | 2:54:14 | 2:54:16 | |
because it was in the too difficult
in trade. We have an opportunity to | 2:54:16 | 2:54:22 | |
simplify the procedure, hopefully
before the 200th anniversary of the | 2:54:22 | 2:54:29 | |
legislation in 2037. Let's, as the
noble lady baroness said use the | 2:54:29 | 2:54:37 | |
100th anniversary of votes for women
to make the change to add both | 2:54:37 | 2:54:42 | |
parents' names to the marriage
certificate. I had to do a | 2:54:42 | 2:54:45 | |
double-take when I saw that mothers'
names were not included, and most | 2:54:45 | 2:54:49 | |
people I have spoken to were not
aware of it either. I understand, as | 2:54:49 | 2:54:54 | |
has been that Victorian Britain the
father would be seen as head of | 2:54:54 | 2:54:59 | |
household but in this day and age it
is becoming extraordinary. I | 2:54:59 | 2:55:06 | |
understand there are draft
legislation is but so far I have not | 2:55:06 | 2:55:10 | |
been able to access them. May I ask
the noble lady Minister in her reply | 2:55:10 | 2:55:14 | |
for and as Europe is that they will
be available before the committee | 2:55:14 | 2:55:17 | |
stage? -- for her assurance. The
explanatory notes, impact assessment | 2:55:17 | 2:55:24 | |
and library notes were extremely
useful and I have now become best | 2:55:24 | 2:55:27 | |
friends with ONE, otherwise known as
registration online. Just as there | 2:55:27 | 2:55:40 | |
are guidelines at present for the
definition of fibre, I am reassured | 2:55:40 | 2:55:44 | |
that there will be careful
definitions which cover all aspects | 2:55:44 | 2:55:47 | |
of the description of parent. One
anxiety I had which has already been | 2:55:47 | 2:55:52 | |
expressed by the noble lady baroness
was about the transfer of | 2:55:52 | 2:55:57 | |
responsibility to register the
marriage to the married couple, with | 2:55:57 | 2:56:01 | |
the possibility of fines being
imposed for failing to carry out | 2:56:01 | 2:56:05 | |
their responsibility. The Bishop's
office kindly checked with the GR | 2:56:05 | 2:56:10 | |
oh, you said in Scotland, where the
system exists, the penalty for | 2:56:10 | 2:56:14 | |
failing to register has not yet had
to be used. I have known information | 2:56:14 | 2:56:20 | |
about Northern Ireland where the
system also exists but I imagine it | 2:56:20 | 2:56:23 | |
is the same. As I said, we have the
opportunity to simplify the | 2:56:23 | 2:56:27 | |
procedure, save on costs, and
improve security. At present, | 2:56:27 | 2:56:34 | |
criminal gangs obtain access to
blank documentation and use it to | 2:56:34 | 2:56:38 | |
provide false evidence of a marriage
taking place, and the fact that | 2:56:38 | 2:56:42 | |
there is one robbery every month
should be an important incentive to | 2:56:42 | 2:56:46 | |
remove the requirement for blank
registers and certificate stocks to | 2:56:46 | 2:56:50 | |
be held in churches and religious
buildings. Although changes to the | 2:56:50 | 2:56:56 | |
content of the register entry could
be made by secondary legislation, as | 2:56:56 | 2:57:01 | |
has already been said, any change
would necessitate replacement of all | 2:57:01 | 2:57:08 | |
84,000 marriage register books
currently in use in 13,000 religious | 2:57:08 | 2:57:13 | |
buildings. The change to an
electronic system will enable the | 2:57:13 | 2:57:17 | |
form and content of the marriage
register entry to be easily amended | 2:57:17 | 2:57:22 | |
to include, for example, details of
both parents of the couple without | 2:57:22 | 2:57:26 | |
having to replace all marriage
register books. That is why this | 2:57:26 | 2:57:31 | |
primary legislation is so necessary.
Similar bills have had support from | 2:57:31 | 2:57:36 | |
various Government ministers and the
Fawcett Society has said it would be | 2:57:36 | 2:57:42 | |
another step forward. In conclusion,
my Lords, I understand that the | 2:57:42 | 2:57:47 | |
Church of England is not the only
institution which will be affected | 2:57:47 | 2:57:50 | |
by the passing of this bill, but as
long as it is the established | 2:57:50 | 2:57:56 | |
church, surely Parliament has an
obligation to facilitate a long | 2:57:56 | 2:58:00 | |
overdue improvement. I wish the bill
all speed. | 2:58:00 | 2:58:09 | |
I rise to support the Bill
wholeheartedly and congratulate the | 2:58:09 | 2:58:15 | |
bishops are sponsoring the Bill.
It's long past time that the | 2:58:15 | 2:58:19 | |
mother's name should appear on
marriage registers and I share the | 2:58:19 | 2:58:22 | |
view it is truly remarkable this has
taken many years to reach this | 2:58:22 | 2:58:26 | |
point. I particularly want to
support the comments which I believe | 2:58:26 | 2:58:31 | |
are going to be made by Baroness
Bakewell. The speaking order is not | 2:58:31 | 2:58:39 | |
ideal but we will manage. About the
need for legal recognition for | 2:58:39 | 2:58:43 | |
humanist marriages and the
opportunity for this Bill to bring | 2:58:43 | 2:58:48 | |
about that recognition. I introduced
the amendment to the 2013 same-sex | 2:58:48 | 2:58:55 | |
marriage act which provided for
legal recognition of humanist | 2:58:55 | 2:58:57 | |
marriages. The government tabled its
own amendment making provision in | 2:58:57 | 2:59:05 | |
law for humanist marriages to be
legally recognised, a move that have | 2:59:05 | 2:59:10 | |
broad support in both houses. This
is nothing controversial. The | 2:59:10 | 2:59:15 | |
limitation of the government's
Amendment however was that it | 2:59:15 | 2:59:18 | |
required a ministerial order to
bring it into being. Since then I | 2:59:18 | 2:59:24 | |
have patiently attended many
meetings with ministers about this | 2:59:24 | 2:59:26 | |
where they have assured us they are
making progress. But my Lords, we | 2:59:26 | 2:59:31 | |
are now in 2018 and this section of
the Act of 2013 remains to be | 2:59:31 | 2:59:37 | |
brought into effect. Baroness
Bakewell's aim is to simply ensure | 2:59:37 | 2:59:44 | |
progress is made on the issue. Legal
recognition of humanist marriages | 2:59:44 | 2:59:48 | |
would be hugely popular and as I
understand it, it requires pretty | 2:59:48 | 2:59:52 | |
much nothing else except adding the
terms humanist marriages in some | 2:59:52 | 2:59:57 | |
document that already provides
special provisions for Quaker | 2:59:57 | 3:00:03 | |
marriages. Not exactly complex or
time-consuming. I understand with | 3:00:03 | 3:00:08 | |
Brexit one can't have time-consuming
matters but really this is not one | 3:00:08 | 3:00:12 | |
of those. When humanist marriages
are already so overwhelmingly | 3:00:12 | 3:00:16 | |
popular in Scotland, Ireland and
elsewhere, surely it is past time | 3:00:16 | 3:00:21 | |
that legal recognition is given in
this country. I therefore hope there | 3:00:21 | 3:00:25 | |
will be a consensus across the House
that five years after the law | 3:00:25 | 3:00:30 | |
permitting legal recognition of
humanist marriages was passed a | 3:00:30 | 3:00:34 | |
small amendment to this Bill to
activate this provision should be | 3:00:34 | 3:00:37 | |
agreed. My Lords, I welcome this
Bill wholeheartedly and congratulate | 3:00:37 | 3:00:49 | |
the Bishop of St Albans and
sponsoring it. It is very welcome | 3:00:49 | 3:00:54 | |
indeed. Indeed, how could one have
not realised that mother's names | 3:00:54 | 3:00:59 | |
have not been on marriage
certificates for so long? What an | 3:00:59 | 3:01:04 | |
extraordinary accident of history
that that has not been acknowledged. | 3:01:04 | 3:01:10 | |
I rather relish the idea that
putting the 84,000 marriage | 3:01:10 | 3:01:17 | |
registers out of the order and
digitalise in the whole process | 3:01:17 | 3:01:20 | |
seems well overdue as an enterprise.
As my colleague has already said, | 3:01:20 | 3:01:26 | |
I'm using the occasion to raise an
issue where this Bill by amendment | 3:01:26 | 3:01:32 | |
could bring to fruition a long hoped
for reform of marriage laws, one | 3:01:32 | 3:01:37 | |
that I understand from the tabling
office is within the scope of this | 3:01:37 | 3:01:43 | |
Bill. And that is the legal
recognition of humanist marriages in | 3:01:43 | 3:01:51 | |
England and Wales. Just to revisit
their history again because it is | 3:01:51 | 3:01:53 | |
very telling history, five years ago
as we've already heard the same-sex | 3:01:53 | 3:01:59 | |
marriage act promoted a major debate
in the House of Commons and in this | 3:01:59 | 3:02:09 | |
House which spoke in favour of such
recognition. But the government | 3:02:09 | 3:02:16 | |
didn't act as we hoped. The
government's own amendment gave the | 3:02:16 | 3:02:24 | |
power in the future enshrined in
section 14. They mandated the to | 3:02:24 | 3:02:29 | |
consult. The government consulted.
Over 90% were in favour of | 3:02:29 | 3:02:35 | |
registering humanist marriages. The
government asked the Law Commission | 3:02:35 | 3:02:42 | |
to do a scoping exercise. They did.
And they came back and emphasised | 3:02:42 | 3:02:46 | |
the unfairness of the situation as
it exists. There's been consultation | 3:02:46 | 3:02:54 | |
and there has been in action.
Elsewhere things have changed. In | 3:02:54 | 3:03:01 | |
Scotland there was legal recognition
for a humanist marriage in 2005 and | 3:03:01 | 3:03:07 | |
by 2016 17% of marriages in Scotland
where humanist marriages. This is a | 3:03:07 | 3:03:16 | |
popular format for people of
humanist beliefs. Will expand on the | 3:03:16 | 3:03:23 | |
term belief in a moment. In the
Republic of Ireland, in 2012, | 3:03:23 | 3:03:29 | |
humanist marriages were given legal
recognition. By 2016, 7% of | 3:03:29 | 3:03:35 | |
marriages where humanist marriages.
Northern Ireland is similar to | 3:03:35 | 3:03:42 | |
England, civil and religious
marriages are legal, humanist | 3:03:42 | 3:03:46 | |
marriages are not. Not yet. Last
summer in Northern Ireland the High | 3:03:46 | 3:03:53 | |
Court in Belfast ruled that under
article nine of the European | 3:03:53 | 3:03:57 | |
Convention on Human Rights,
recognition must be extended to | 3:03:57 | 3:04:02 | |
humanist marriages. That decision
has been stayed pending an appeal to | 3:04:02 | 3:04:09 | |
the Attorney General of Northern
Ireland and a decision is expected | 3:04:09 | 3:04:12 | |
soon. Meanwhile, Jersey has issued a
new draft law which is expected as | 3:04:12 | 3:04:19 | |
soon as next week. Change is afoot
to recognise with generosity and | 3:04:19 | 3:04:27 | |
sincerity a commitment to
acknowledge humanist marriages. My | 3:04:27 | 3:04:33 | |
Lords, humanism and humanist
marriage is not the same as a civil | 3:04:33 | 3:04:40 | |
ceremony. Humanists have a set of
moral beliefs that command huge | 3:04:40 | 3:04:47 | |
respect throughout the belief
communities of this country. | 3:04:47 | 3:04:50 | |
Humanist beliefs involve and
acknowledgement that we can live | 3:04:50 | 3:04:56 | |
ethical and fulfilling lives on the
basis of reason and humanity. These | 3:04:56 | 3:05:06 | |
beliefs are recognised and held
widely in this country, and they put | 3:05:06 | 3:05:10 | |
a burden of moral behaviour on the
here and now in this world. It is an | 3:05:10 | 3:05:18 | |
increasingly popular way of
expressing a spiritual outlook that | 3:05:18 | 3:05:24 | |
does not acknowledge the
supernatural. One that is recognised | 3:05:24 | 3:05:27 | |
by many of my Christian friends. Can
I say that I strongly support, as | 3:05:27 | 3:05:36 | |
have other speakers, the Bill
introduced and I very much hope that | 3:05:36 | 3:05:43 | |
he and the House will feel able to
accommodate the amendment which is | 3:05:43 | 3:05:48 | |
being moved by the noble lady. I
will be moving the amendment when | 3:05:48 | 3:05:54 | |
the Bill goes through but it is time
to legally recognise such sincere | 3:05:54 | 3:06:01 | |
marriages for people who come
together in a shared set of beliefs | 3:06:01 | 3:06:03 | |
that simply do not gain recognition
in England and Wales. My Lords, it | 3:06:03 | 3:06:12 | |
is a pleasure to make a brief
contribution today in support of | 3:06:12 | 3:06:17 | |
this small but highly significant
private members Bill on the | 3:06:17 | 3:06:21 | |
registration of marriage. I pay
tribute to the right Reverend Bishop | 3:06:21 | 3:06:25 | |
of Saint organs for introducing this
Bill into your lordship's house -- | 3:06:25 | 3:06:31 | |
St Albans. And to my right
honourable friend had tabling her | 3:06:31 | 3:06:35 | |
Bill in the Other Place. They are to
be congratulated for their wonderful | 3:06:35 | 3:06:40 | |
collaboration in ensuring this Bill
secured a second reading as soon as | 3:06:40 | 3:06:45 | |
was possible. My daughter was
married just over a year ago, so | 3:06:45 | 3:06:51 | |
from recent personal experience I
know from being at the heart of all | 3:06:51 | 3:06:55 | |
the preparation, decision-making and
the stress, that when it came to the | 3:06:55 | 3:07:00 | |
document that gave legal status to
the marriage, my name and my | 3:07:00 | 3:07:06 | |
son-in-law's mother's name were
airbrushed out of the picture, as | 3:07:06 | 3:07:10 | |
with all other mothers. Really it is
time that this anomaly was put | 3:07:10 | 3:07:15 | |
right. So changing from a
paper-based system to an electronic | 3:07:15 | 3:07:19 | |
system will allow this to happen.
Whilst I was thinking and chatting | 3:07:19 | 3:07:24 | |
to my daughter and friends, and my
daughter was appalled, she hadn't | 3:07:24 | 3:07:29 | |
realised that my name wasn't on her
wedding certificate, it raised a | 3:07:29 | 3:07:34 | |
question to which I don't know the
answer. As my mother taught me, but | 3:07:34 | 3:07:38 | |
if you are unsure you should always
ask the question even if it seemed | 3:07:38 | 3:07:42 | |
glaringly obvious. Under the present
law, what happens if someone doesn't | 3:07:42 | 3:07:46 | |
know who their father is? Is there
simply a gap or does it say father | 3:07:46 | 3:07:51 | |
unknown? At least with adding the
mother's name to the register in the | 3:07:51 | 3:07:56 | |
vast majority of cases one relative
would be named on the marriage | 3:07:56 | 3:08:00 | |
certificate. My Lords, I realise
that when something seems simple it | 3:08:00 | 3:08:08 | |
isn't always easy to rectify. There
can be unintended consequences and | 3:08:08 | 3:08:14 | |
cost. The way this Bill seeks to
overcome that is to be | 3:08:14 | 3:08:18 | |
congratulated. The means by which
this is to happen, the signing of a | 3:08:18 | 3:08:26 | |
certificate which is then handed to
the registrars and put on the | 3:08:26 | 3:08:29 | |
electronic register has another
benefit, in which it will still | 3:08:29 | 3:08:33 | |
allow for those lovely photographs
of signing the register which are | 3:08:33 | 3:08:36 | |
often some of the most special in a
wedding album. I don't know if your | 3:08:36 | 3:08:42 | |
Lordships are watching the BBC
documentary Vicar's Life which | 3:08:42 | 3:08:49 | |
follows three vicars in Hereford and
South Shropshire. If not I suggest | 3:08:49 | 3:08:53 | |
you get it and catch up. One of the
Vickers has important documents | 3:08:53 | 3:08:58 | |
stolen when thieves break into his
church and take an old box -- one of | 3:08:58 | 3:09:04 | |
the Vicars. Bailey to discard the
documents which are returned to the | 3:09:04 | 3:09:08 | |
church damp. I now know from
watching this episode that in order | 3:09:08 | 3:09:12 | |
to stop mildew growing an important
papers, you simply cover them up and | 3:09:12 | 3:09:17 | |
put them in the freezer. An
important life skill we should all | 3:09:17 | 3:09:22 | |
be aware. But did make me realise
that lovely as they are, paper-based | 3:09:22 | 3:09:29 | |
records are also vulnerable, so
there is another benefit to the | 3:09:29 | 3:09:34 | |
electronic register as well as
certificates that could be stolen. | 3:09:34 | 3:09:38 | |
My Lords, finally I would like to
pay to be to the country's | 3:09:38 | 3:09:42 | |
registrars. They were enormously
helpful when my daughter was married | 3:09:42 | 3:09:45 | |
and I wish them well in
accommodating the changes this Bill | 3:09:45 | 3:09:50 | |
will bring, as I sincerely hope it
reaches the statute book, and I give | 3:09:50 | 3:09:54 | |
it my wholehearted support. I do add
my congratulations to the Bishop of | 3:09:54 | 3:10:04 | |
St Albans. In 1994I had the
privilege of piloting a marriage | 3:10:04 | 3:10:12 | |
built through this House. As a
result of that legislation, couples | 3:10:12 | 3:10:16 | |
were able to choose where a civil
marriage could take place in a | 3:10:16 | 3:10:24 | |
location in addition to a registry
office. That location had to be a | 3:10:24 | 3:10:29 | |
suitable location. It also ended the
practice where a suitcase was left | 3:10:29 | 3:10:36 | |
in a property near the site of the
marriage ceremony in order to prove | 3:10:36 | 3:10:42 | |
residency in this appropriate area.
Each Bill brings forward legislation | 3:10:42 | 3:10:49 | |
to modernise customs and conventions
that have existed for centuries. I | 3:10:49 | 3:10:55 | |
believe this Bill is a further step
in that direction which I | 3:10:55 | 3:11:00 | |
wholeheartedly commend. The
Registration of Marriage Bill amends | 3:11:00 | 3:11:06 | |
the legal documents so that the
mother's name will be included, and | 3:11:06 | 3:11:10 | |
as well as the fathers. I'm
delighted by this inclusion which is | 3:11:10 | 3:11:18 | |
long overdue. I do have, however, to
very minor questions for the right | 3:11:18 | 3:11:26 | |
Reverend. First, the terrific at
given to couples is a secure | 3:11:26 | 3:11:34 | |
document that cannot be hacked or
interfered with. After all, a | 3:11:34 | 3:11:40 | |
marriage certificate is a valuable
document and security is a high | 3:11:40 | 3:11:51 | |
priority. Secondly, I would not wish
the cost of marriage to be raised. | 3:11:51 | 3:11:58 | |
It used to be seven and 6p in the
past. It always seems to happen if | 3:11:58 | 3:12:03 | |
changes occur. The process seems to
be a little more bureaucratic, this | 3:12:03 | 3:12:13 | |
process, which is disappointing, and
the extra duties required by couples | 3:12:13 | 3:12:16 | |
could mean that they may decide
against marriage. This could result | 3:12:16 | 3:12:23 | |
in fewer people entering matrimony,
which I'm sure is not what the | 3:12:23 | 3:12:28 | |
church authority would wish. My
Lords, I am a keen advocate of | 3:12:28 | 3:12:35 | |
marriage. I was married for 58 years
and dearly wish that families could | 3:12:35 | 3:12:41 | |
share such happiness as I have been
blessed to have had. | 3:12:41 | 3:12:52 | |
I really do give wholehearted
support this bill. My Lords, I speak | 3:12:53 | 3:12:58 | |
as someone who, in his youth,
thought marriage would be obsolete | 3:12:58 | 3:13:03 | |
by the time I grew up but of course
that was not to be. I welcome this | 3:13:03 | 3:13:11 | |
bill, especially the fact that the
mother's name will be added to the | 3:13:11 | 3:13:16 | |
Father's name, but I do wonder in
the names of IVF and all those | 3:13:16 | 3:13:22 | |
things whether the concept of mother
and father would be applicable with | 3:13:22 | 3:13:26 | |
such certainty everywhere and I
think maybe we will need another | 3:13:26 | 3:13:32 | |
bill and another ten years to
clarify that. I speak as a humanist | 3:13:32 | 3:13:40 | |
and all that I wish to say has been
said by my noble friend Baroness | 3:13:40 | 3:13:44 | |
Bakewell. So I will just say, yes, I
welcome the introduction of mothers' | 3:13:44 | 3:13:52 | |
names, I welcome the change to
online registration and I wish that | 3:13:52 | 3:13:55 | |
her amendment would have as good
support as the bill itself has. My | 3:13:55 | 3:14:04 | |
Lords, this is a very interesting
occasion because I can't criticise | 3:14:04 | 3:14:08 | |
anything. I would have very much
like to say something critical but | 3:14:08 | 3:14:12 | |
the right reverend's bill is so
sensible and necessary there is | 3:14:12 | 3:14:17 | |
nothing to say to it in criticism.
I'm sure there is some minor | 3:14:17 | 3:14:24 | |
improvement which may be made if it
goes to committee stage but it is | 3:14:24 | 3:14:30 | |
necessary. It is interesting that
such a long time ago, when the | 3:14:30 | 3:14:35 | |
mother's name was left out, I think
the noble Baroness Lady Morris has | 3:14:35 | 3:14:39 | |
already referred to it in a sideways
way, what about knowing whose child | 3:14:39 | 3:14:46 | |
it is?! The only person who actually
knows whether they are a parent of | 3:14:46 | 3:14:52 | |
that child is the mother, not the
father! And yet the mother is left | 3:14:52 | 3:14:57 | |
out! So, my Lords, I have no
criticism to make but I do want to | 3:14:57 | 3:15:03 | |
bring something else up, because one
rarely gets an occasion when one can | 3:15:03 | 3:15:09 | |
bring up something which I think is
pretty serious. I'm sure the noble | 3:15:09 | 3:15:16 | |
Lords know how many marriages in
this country have no registration. | 3:15:16 | 3:15:22 | |
All these Muslim sharia marriages
have no registration, and I think | 3:15:22 | 3:15:26 | |
this is not right. It means that the
women have no rights under that | 3:15:26 | 3:15:35 | |
marriage, they have no status, and
they get thrown out by their | 3:15:35 | 3:15:39 | |
husbands without anything and if you
say to the men, why don't you do | 3:15:39 | 3:15:45 | |
something about looking after your
divorced wife, your ex-wife, | 3:15:45 | 3:15:51 | |
whatever? And children? They say,
why, the state will do that, why | 3:15:51 | 3:15:56 | |
should we do it? In every respect,
my Lords, it is wrong that anybody | 3:15:56 | 3:16:01 | |
who comes to live in this country
does not have a marriage registered | 3:16:01 | 3:16:10 | |
properly and I think the sooner the
Government pays attention to that, | 3:16:10 | 3:16:13 | |
the better it is for all these
Muslim women who have no rights and | 3:16:13 | 3:16:19 | |
also the state, which has to look
after the families of men who get | 3:16:19 | 3:16:23 | |
away without doing anything. So I
know this is not part of this bill, | 3:16:23 | 3:16:28 | |
but it is an occasion, we have
talked about humanist marriages, and | 3:16:28 | 3:16:32 | |
I would like to talk about sharia
marriages, and sharia is actually | 3:16:32 | 3:16:38 | |
not a proper law, it changes from
country to country, and it almost | 3:16:38 | 3:16:43 | |
changes from the group of Imams
making judgment as it comes. So we | 3:16:43 | 3:16:51 | |
have to be extremely careful, my
Lords, and I think some thought | 3:16:51 | 3:16:55 | |
should be given to this matter. I
would like to add my thanks to the | 3:16:55 | 3:17:02 | |
right reverend for introducing this
small but very important bill. The | 3:17:02 | 3:17:06 | |
civil registration service is one of
the administrative hidden gems of | 3:17:06 | 3:17:10 | |
this country, every year up and down
the land around a million births, | 3:17:10 | 3:17:15 | |
marriages and deaths are recorded.
It happens routinely, usually | 3:17:15 | 3:17:19 | |
without drama, but provides the
legal evidential base for our very | 3:17:19 | 3:17:23 | |
existence and its accuracy is key.
Civil registration was introduced in | 3:17:23 | 3:17:30 | |
1837, it is administered by
registrars in 174 local authorities | 3:17:30 | 3:17:34 | |
as well as the General register
office up in Southport. When civil | 3:17:34 | 3:17:40 | |
registration was introduced, the
system drew very heavily on the | 3:17:40 | 3:17:42 | |
framework which was already in use
for the recording of baptisms, | 3:17:42 | 3:17:47 | |
marriages and burials. The keeping
of church registers had been pretty | 3:17:47 | 3:17:52 | |
haphazard until 1538, when Thomas
Cromwell ordered that each priest | 3:17:52 | 3:17:55 | |
should keep a record of the
baptisms, marriages and burials in | 3:17:55 | 3:17:59 | |
the parish. Later they were required
to be kept on parchment because it | 3:17:59 | 3:18:04 | |
was more durable and held in a
secure parish chest. Copies were | 3:18:04 | 3:18:07 | |
made regularly and sent to the
Bishop and the roses act 1812 | 3:18:07 | 3:18:14 | |
standardised the information on
preprinted forms which included only | 3:18:14 | 3:18:17 | |
the father's name and occupation. So
civil registration Carew on this | 3:18:17 | 3:18:24 | |
experience in the case of marriages,
copies from local events are sent to | 3:18:24 | 3:18:29 | |
superintendent registrars and then
the registrar general who holds the | 3:18:29 | 3:18:33 | |
central repository. Mistakes are not
commonplace but they do happen and | 3:18:33 | 3:18:37 | |
indeed serious family historians,
when faced with a discrepancy, will | 3:18:37 | 3:18:41 | |
go back to the local, original, in
case an ever had crept in. Each time | 3:18:41 | 3:18:48 | |
an entry is manually copied there is
more scope for error and under the | 3:18:48 | 3:18:52 | |
current arrangements these are very,
very complex to correct. The system, | 3:18:52 | 3:18:57 | |
basically, serves us well but in
various ways it simply hasn't kept | 3:18:57 | 3:19:02 | |
pace either with social change or
expectation or with technological | 3:19:02 | 3:19:07 | |
development, and I think the bill
today deals very well with two | 3:19:07 | 3:19:13 | |
examples of that, namely
digitisation and the recognition | 3:19:13 | 3:19:15 | |
that the role of women has changed
somewhat since 1837. | 3:19:15 | 3:19:30 | |
Back in 2002, the Government
published a white paper called civil | 3:19:36 | 3:19:38 | |
registration, vital change. It
proposed widespread reform mostly by | 3:19:38 | 3:19:40 | |
accusing regulatory reform orders
but very little progress has ever | 3:19:40 | 3:19:42 | |
been made with these vital changes,
despite extensive public | 3:19:42 | 3:19:44 | |
consultations. A few changes have
been made under the 20 16th at in | 3:19:44 | 3:19:46 | |
which a pilot scheme now allows
historic copies of certificates to | 3:19:46 | 3:19:49 | |
be provided by PDF, which is useful
for family historians, and the | 3:19:49 | 3:19:54 | |
Digital economy at 2017 will allow
for electronic verification between | 3:19:54 | 3:19:58 | |
public authorities and the GRO. But
that is pretty much it. So I really | 3:19:58 | 3:20:03 | |
support the proposals contained in
this bill. Every noble Lord has | 3:20:03 | 3:20:09 | |
emphasised this year almost lunacy
of excluding mothers from the | 3:20:09 | 3:20:12 | |
marriage certificate, so I really
don't think I need to do anything | 3:20:12 | 3:20:15 | |
other than wholeheartedly agree with
that. Noble Lords may have gathered | 3:20:15 | 3:20:21 | |
that I am something of an enthusiast
for this topic, and this comes from | 3:20:21 | 3:20:24 | |
my interest shared with Lady Donaghy
in family history, and as such I | 3:20:24 | 3:20:30 | |
tend to take rather a long view of
these things. One of the most vexing | 3:20:30 | 3:20:35 | |
questions for serious researchers is
the standard of proof to which you | 3:20:35 | 3:20:39 | |
work. Adding more detail I think the
addition of the mother's name to the | 3:20:39 | 3:20:44 | |
marriage certificate is a really
important piece of detail and this | 3:20:44 | 3:20:47 | |
will be a great piece of extra
validation for future generations of | 3:20:47 | 3:20:52 | |
family historians. But I think it
goes further than that, because when | 3:20:52 | 3:20:56 | |
you get serious about family
research it is not the perennial | 3:20:56 | 3:21:00 | |
question of how far back you can go,
what you are really interested in | 3:21:00 | 3:21:04 | |
is, how did your ancestors lived,
what did they do? So the details on | 3:21:04 | 3:21:08 | |
civil records are an important part
of | 3:21:08 | 3:21:21 | |
understanding that, so future
generations will know that much more | 3:21:22 | 3:21:24 | |
about their female ancestors, and
that is important because genealogy | 3:21:24 | 3:21:26 | |
always defaults to the male line
simply because the surname remains | 3:21:26 | 3:21:28 | |
constant. The writing out of the
mother on marriage records adds to | 3:21:28 | 3:21:31 | |
the dilution of the female line
despite the fact that it alone is | 3:21:31 | 3:21:34 | |
the only line that comes with
biological certainty. Government has | 3:21:34 | 3:21:38 | |
been moving to digital systems for
some time, civil registration should | 3:21:38 | 3:21:43 | |
not be an exception. This bill deals
with marriage records so if passed | 3:21:43 | 3:21:48 | |
the Government should consider how
to progress with birth and death | 3:21:48 | 3:21:51 | |
records, but for now I think we
should be welcoming the beginning of | 3:21:51 | 3:21:54 | |
a digital parish chest. This bill
will allow the updating of the | 3:21:54 | 3:22:00 | |
marriage entry and also on positive
quality aspects that we have talked | 3:22:00 | 3:22:04 | |
about, and we should be mindful that
beyond the provision of mothers' | 3:22:04 | 3:22:08 | |
names, this bill gives the chance to
future proof civil registration so | 3:22:08 | 3:22:12 | |
that later Parliamentary decisions
on, for example, recognition of | 3:22:12 | 3:22:17 | |
those with two female or two male
parents or no legally recognised | 3:22:17 | 3:22:22 | |
father that these can be dealt with.
But what this is not is a bill about | 3:22:22 | 3:22:28 | |
marriage itself, and whilst both I
and my party fully support humanist | 3:22:28 | 3:22:32 | |
marriages, this bill is not about
that, and I would really urge Lady | 3:22:32 | 3:22:40 | |
Bakewell, Lord Desai, Baroness
Meacher, to be very careful about | 3:22:40 | 3:22:42 | |
opening this up to a broader sphere,
because as we have just heard, she | 3:22:42 | 3:22:49 | |
might want to bring in something
about sharia marriages and there is | 3:22:49 | 3:22:53 | |
a danger the bill becomes unworkable
and that we will lose it. That would | 3:22:53 | 3:22:58 | |
be a pity because debates here and
in another place have demonstrated | 3:22:58 | 3:23:01 | |
widespread support and I think we
should give it a speedy passage. | 3:23:01 | 3:23:07 | |
My Lords, I would like to thank the
right reverend the Bishop of St | 3:23:07 | 3:23:12 | |
Albans for bringing this bill before
us today and thank him very much for | 3:23:12 | 3:23:15 | |
our meeting earlier this week which
I found very helpful. My Lords, this | 3:23:15 | 3:23:21 | |
bill is much welcomed, welcomed all
round the house today, and many | 3:23:21 | 3:23:28 | |
regard it as a matter of equality,
and it will update the current | 3:23:28 | 3:23:34 | |
system for registering marriages
which has not changed since 1837 and | 3:23:34 | 3:23:39 | |
certainly bring it into the
21st-century. Moving from the | 3:23:39 | 3:23:44 | |
paper-based system to the electronic
-based system is common sense and | 3:23:44 | 3:23:48 | |
should make it much more secure as
well as ensuring all marriages will | 3:23:48 | 3:23:53 | |
be electronically registered. And it
is expected that this system could | 3:23:53 | 3:23:59 | |
save money in the long term. It is
estimated around £31 million in the | 3:23:59 | 3:24:04 | |
first year. I would like to see
clarification which others have | 3:24:04 | 3:24:09 | |
mentioned on clause 1 subsection 4
which they said if a person fails to | 3:24:09 | 3:24:17 | |
deliver the signed marriage schedule
all signed marriage document, the | 3:24:17 | 3:24:21 | |
regulations may provide that a
person who fails to comply with such | 3:24:21 | 3:24:25 | |
a requirement would A, committed an
offence, B, is liable to summary | 3:24:25 | 3:24:33 | |
conviction, to a fine not exceeding
level three on the standard scale, | 3:24:33 | 3:24:38 | |
which is currently set at £1000. I
know that Lady Donohue raised this, | 3:24:38 | 3:24:46 | |
as did the noble Baroness. In the
bill it says it is an offence and in | 3:24:46 | 3:24:54 | |
the explanatory notes it says it is
a criminal offence, and I am no | 3:24:54 | 3:24:58 | |
legal expert on this but hopefully
we can have some explanation on | 3:24:58 | 3:25:03 | |
that. But I understand it is based
on the Scottish model from 1977 and | 3:25:03 | 3:25:08 | |
it has never been used and that
people, if they do slip up, and not | 3:25:08 | 3:25:15 | |
send the certificate back in time,
would have a reminder, and no other | 3:25:15 | 3:25:19 | |
action would be taken. My Lords,
many will be aware of the campaign | 3:25:19 | 3:25:23 | |
to at the mother's name to the
marriage certificate, and like other | 3:25:23 | 3:25:28 | |
noble Lords I think this move is
long overdue. Successive governments | 3:25:28 | 3:25:34 | |
have failed to address the
fundamental inequality of the | 3:25:34 | 3:25:39 | |
marriage registration certificate in
England and Wales with the name and | 3:25:39 | 3:25:42 | |
occupation of the father of the
bride and groom included but the | 3:25:42 | 3:25:50 | |
motherss not. David Cameron promised
to act on this at the relation | 3:25:50 | 3:25:53 | |
Alliance summit in 2014 and he said
the system did not reflect modern | 3:25:53 | 3:25:58 | |
Britain and that it should be
updated, that was four years ago. In | 3:25:58 | 3:26:07 | |
January 2015, the then immigration
and security Minister James Roby shy | 3:26:07 | 3:26:11 | |
MP said the Government would
continue to develop options that | 3:26:11 | 3:26:16 | |
would allow mothers' names to be on
the marriage certificate as soon as | 3:26:16 | 3:26:21 | |
practical. Again, that was three
years ago, so he also said, in | 3:26:21 | 3:26:31 | |
answer to a Parliamentary question,
in 2015, that the Home Office would | 3:26:31 | 3:26:37 | |
work with all interested parties to
confirm the most efficient and | 3:26:37 | 3:26:41 | |
effective way to enable mothers'
names to be recorded on marriage | 3:26:41 | 3:26:46 | |
certificates and to achieve this
additional funding and changes to | 3:26:46 | 3:26:53 | |
legislation, IT systems, and the
administration process would | 3:26:53 | 3:26:56 | |
probably be needed. He also said the
Government would confirm a timetable | 3:26:56 | 3:26:59 | |
for the new system to be introduced
in due course, so I wonder, could | 3:26:59 | 3:27:04 | |
the Minister say whether this work
has been carried out, as that | 3:27:04 | 3:27:07 | |
commitment was made three years ago?
My Lords, if we look at the contrast | 3:27:07 | 3:27:15 | |
in civil partnerships which came
into law in 2014, the mothers' | 3:27:15 | 3:27:19 | |
details are included on the
registration certificate and in | 3:27:19 | 3:27:23 | |
Scotland and Northern Ireland it is
already including the mothers' | 3:27:23 | 3:27:26 | |
details. I am surprised by this,
Scotland has included mothers' names | 3:27:26 | 3:27:34 | |
since 1855 when there were no such
things as computers, it was all done | 3:27:34 | 3:27:39 | |
by paper and pen, so I think if we
could have done it in 1855, it would | 3:27:39 | 3:27:45 | |
be quite easy to do it much earlier
than we are talking about today. | 3:27:45 | 3:27:53 | |
In 2040, many people will be aware
of the campaign that garnered 70,000 | 3:27:53 | 3:28:09 | |
signatures which said it should not
be seen as a business transaction | 3:28:09 | 3:28:13 | |
between the father of the bride and
the father of the grooms. My Lords, | 3:28:13 | 3:28:23 | |
my noble friend mentioned, and
others I believe have mentioned it, | 3:28:23 | 3:28:30 | |
that we should have both parents
names on the marriage certificates, | 3:28:30 | 3:28:41 | |
and with civil partnerships and
same-sex marriage. No doubt children | 3:28:41 | 3:28:44 | |
of those partnerships will one day
get married. My Lords, I believe | 3:28:44 | 3:28:53 | |
this Bill is a welcome step forward.
What better measure could the | 3:28:53 | 3:28:59 | |
government take to mark the centre
an array of women getting the vote | 3:28:59 | 3:29:05 | |
than to ensure this becomes an Act
of Parliament is a tribute to all | 3:29:05 | 3:29:10 | |
those and are still campaigning for
equality for women. May I | 3:29:10 | 3:29:21 | |
congratulate the Bishop of St Albans
for bringing forward and outlining | 3:29:21 | 3:29:24 | |
the purposes of what is quite a
narrowly defined Bill to date, which | 3:29:24 | 3:29:30 | |
reforms the way in which marriage
are registered in the future and | 3:29:30 | 3:29:35 | |
enabled the updating of the marriage
entry to allow for the inclusion of | 3:29:35 | 3:29:39 | |
mothers' names. It is a very
important issue and one which the | 3:29:39 | 3:29:43 | |
government fully supports. I'm
grateful to the right reverend | 3:29:43 | 3:29:49 | |
prelate for bringing forward this
Bill to address this important issue | 3:29:49 | 3:29:53 | |
and to remove the inequality which
currently exists in marriage | 3:29:53 | 3:29:56 | |
entries. As the right reverend
prelate and other noble Lords have | 3:29:56 | 3:30:02 | |
said, the then Prime Minister gave a
commitment in 2014 that the content | 3:30:02 | 3:30:07 | |
of the marriage entry would be
updated to include the details of | 3:30:07 | 3:30:11 | |
both parents of the couple. The
marriage entry clearly doesn't | 3:30:11 | 3:30:15 | |
reflect modern Britain and it's high
time it was updated. Statistics show | 3:30:15 | 3:30:23 | |
there are currently around 2 million
single parents in the country and | 3:30:23 | 3:30:26 | |
around 90% of those women. As it
stands, if any of these children | 3:30:26 | 3:30:33 | |
were to get married, they would only
be able to include their father's | 3:30:33 | 3:30:44 | |
details in the marriage entry and
their mother's details would not be | 3:30:44 | 3:30:48 | |
included, even though they brought
them up as a single parent. As the | 3:30:48 | 3:30:52 | |
right reverend prelate explained,
moving to a schedule system is the | 3:30:52 | 3:30:56 | |
most cost-effective way to bring
about this change. A schedule system | 3:30:56 | 3:31:01 | |
is already in place in Scotland, and
this has been the case since 1855. | 3:31:01 | 3:31:11 | |
In Northern Ireland, it is the same
system which is already used in | 3:31:11 | 3:31:15 | |
England and Wales. Will
partnerships. -- in England and | 3:31:15 | 3:31:23 | |
Wales the civil partnerships. It
would not make sense to replace the | 3:31:23 | 3:31:28 | |
84,000 bound marriage registers
currently in use in register offices | 3:31:28 | 3:31:32 | |
and approximately 30,000 churches
under the religious buildings. If | 3:31:32 | 3:31:39 | |
any amendments were required in the
future they would need to be | 3:31:39 | 3:31:43 | |
replaced again. It wouldn't be
cost-effective to update the | 3:31:43 | 3:31:46 | |
marriage entry in this way. Just to
reprint the marriage registers alone | 3:31:46 | 3:31:51 | |
would cost £1.9 million. With the
costs associated with free calling | 3:31:51 | 3:31:59 | |
all the comment registers and
despatching new registers, this | 3:31:59 | 3:32:01 | |
would bring the total cost to around
£3 million plus. There would also be | 3:32:01 | 3:32:15 | |
changes required to the IT system
and ensure the appropriate training | 3:32:15 | 3:32:18 | |
and guidance is provided to
registration officers and all the | 3:32:18 | 3:32:23 | |
religious bodies affected by the
changes. The changes proposed in | 3:32:23 | 3:32:27 | |
this Bill would mean that marriage
entries would be held in a single | 3:32:27 | 3:32:33 | |
electronic register rather than in
thousands of books making the system | 3:32:33 | 3:32:37 | |
more secure, more efficient and far
simpler to administer and amend if | 3:32:37 | 3:32:43 | |
necessary in the future. As a
result, there would no longer be any | 3:32:43 | 3:32:47 | |
need for bound marriage registers
and certificate stock to be held in | 3:32:47 | 3:32:51 | |
churches or other religious
buildings and my noble friend asked | 3:32:51 | 3:32:57 | |
about the number of burglaries in
the last 12 months. There are a | 3:32:57 | 3:33:02 | |
number of burglaries each year from
religious premises, the move to a | 3:33:02 | 3:33:06 | |
schedule system would remove the
risk of registers and blank | 3:33:06 | 3:33:10 | |
certificates being stolen in order
to create an identity to use for | 3:33:10 | 3:33:14 | |
fraudulent purposes from the
marriage records. Provisional | 3:33:14 | 3:33:19 | |
figures show there were eight
burglaries of marriage registers | 3:33:19 | 3:33:24 | |
from church buildings in the last 12
months. Moving to a schedule system | 3:33:24 | 3:33:30 | |
would be the biggest reform of how
marriages are registered since 1837 | 3:33:30 | 3:33:34 | |
and it moves away from the outdated
legislation in place. My Lords, as | 3:33:34 | 3:33:40 | |
I'm sure you'll all agree, when
considering how the marriage entry | 3:33:40 | 3:33:45 | |
is updated we will need to ensure
the needs of all the different | 3:33:45 | 3:33:49 | |
family circumstances in society
today are taken into account. My | 3:33:49 | 3:33:53 | |
noble friend and a number of noble
Lords wanted more clarification | 3:33:53 | 3:34:01 | |
about the powers conferred by
regulations in clause 1.4. This | 3:34:01 | 3:34:07 | |
House recently expressed its concern
in a debate on a government Bill | 3:34:07 | 3:34:12 | |
about new criminal offences being
created by regulations and statutory | 3:34:12 | 3:34:17 | |
instruments. The Registration of
Marriage Bill contains powers | 3:34:17 | 3:34:23 | |
enabling the Secretary of State
amend the marriage act of 1949 and | 3:34:23 | 3:34:27 | |
other enactments in order to bring
marriage registration in line with | 3:34:27 | 3:34:32 | |
the process for civil partnerships
in England and Wales. As well as | 3:34:32 | 3:34:40 | |
marriages and civil partnerships in
Scotland and Northern Ireland. | 3:34:40 | 3:34:45 | |
Clause 1.4 empowers the Secretary of
State amend the marriage act of 1949 | 3:34:45 | 3:34:48 | |
to create a specific criminal
offence. This offence is modelled on | 3:34:48 | 3:34:54 | |
an existing offence in the marriages
Scotland act 1977 and will be | 3:34:54 | 3:35:02 | |
committed, if a party to a marriage
fails to comply with a notice | 3:35:02 | 3:35:06 | |
requiring him or her to deliver a
signed marriage schedule or document | 3:35:06 | 3:35:12 | |
to enable the registration of the
marriage. The offence would be | 3:35:12 | 3:35:16 | |
punishable on summary conviction to
a fine not exceeding level three and | 3:35:16 | 3:35:20 | |
the standard scale, which is
currently £1000. It should be noted | 3:35:20 | 3:35:29 | |
that for all civil marriages and
religious marriages in which a | 3:35:29 | 3:35:32 | |
registrar attends the signed
schedule will be retained by the | 3:35:32 | 3:35:39 | |
registrar at the marriage ceremony
and taken back to the registry | 3:35:39 | 3:35:42 | |
office for entry into the marriage
register. This accounts for around | 3:35:42 | 3:35:47 | |
75% of all marriages. Therefore it
is not envisaged that the offence | 3:35:47 | 3:35:51 | |
will be used extensively. No issues
have been identified in other | 3:35:51 | 3:35:59 | |
jurisdictions with signed schedule
is being returned. In fact | 3:35:59 | 3:36:03 | |
traditionally it is the best man or
the family member who takes | 3:36:03 | 3:36:08 | |
responsibility for ensuring that the
marriages registered. Although a new | 3:36:08 | 3:36:14 | |
offences created it is also proposed
to remove or reduce the scope of | 3:36:14 | 3:36:19 | |
other registration offences in the
marriage act 1949. At present an | 3:36:19 | 3:36:24 | |
offence for any person to refuse or
two omit to register any marriage as | 3:36:24 | 3:36:32 | |
required under the Act. This offence
at present is potentially committed | 3:36:32 | 3:36:38 | |
by a number of people responsible
for registering marriages including | 3:36:38 | 3:36:43 | |
registrars, members of the clergy,
authorised persons and specified | 3:36:43 | 3:36:47 | |
persons in the Jewish and Quaker
religions. Under the Bill only | 3:36:47 | 3:36:52 | |
registrars would be responsible for
registering marriages, so this | 3:36:52 | 3:36:56 | |
offence will have a far narrower
field of application. In addition, | 3:36:56 | 3:37:01 | |
those currently responsible for
registering marriages are required | 3:37:01 | 3:37:06 | |
under section 57 of the 1949 act to
make and deliver a certified copy of | 3:37:06 | 3:37:12 | |
entries made in the marriage
register book or a certificate that | 3:37:12 | 3:37:16 | |
no entries have been made since the
date of the last certified copy. It | 3:37:16 | 3:37:27 | |
is an offence under section 76.2 for
a person required to make the | 3:37:27 | 3:37:32 | |
quarterly returns to refuse or fail
to deliver any such copy or | 3:37:32 | 3:37:37 | |
certificate to a superintendent
registrar. Under the Bill the | 3:37:37 | 3:37:41 | |
requirement to make quarterly
returns and the associated offence | 3:37:41 | 3:37:45 | |
will become redundant and can be
removed. My Lords, although the Bill | 3:37:45 | 3:37:49 | |
introduces the new offence at clause
1.4 it is not considered the | 3:37:49 | 3:37:55 | |
introduction of this proposed new
offence or the reduction or removal | 3:37:55 | 3:37:58 | |
of existing offences will have any
appreciable impact on the justice | 3:37:58 | 3:38:03 | |
system. The Ministry of Justice has
been consulted in relation to this | 3:38:03 | 3:38:07 | |
proposed offence and has not raised
concerns to date. The noble lady | 3:38:07 | 3:38:16 | |
Meacher and other noble Lords
including the noble lady Lady | 3:38:16 | 3:38:23 | |
Bakewell have asked about humanist
marriage. I need to be very clear | 3:38:23 | 3:38:26 | |
that the scope of this Bill is not
about the solemnisation of | 3:38:26 | 3:38:32 | |
marriages. The actual registration,
which the government has shown no | 3:38:32 | 3:38:40 | |
opposition to, it merely asks the
consultation. The consultation | 3:38:40 | 3:38:44 | |
approves, it refers to the Law
Commission, the Law Commission | 3:38:44 | 3:38:47 | |
approves. It's not an issue on which
the government is offering any | 3:38:47 | 3:38:51 | |
opposition, it is simply a matter of
implementation according to their | 3:38:51 | 3:38:56 | |
judgment. If I could continue to
explain here, the Bill only includes | 3:38:56 | 3:39:03 | |
provisions to introduce a schedule
system and change how marriages are | 3:39:03 | 3:39:09 | |
registered, to facilitate the change
to the marriage entry to include | 3:39:09 | 3:39:13 | |
both parents. That is the scope of
the Bill. It's very narrowly about | 3:39:13 | 3:39:20 | |
marriage registration and not about
solemnisation, and it's not intended | 3:39:20 | 3:39:26 | |
at all to include wider marriage
reform. As the Minister will be | 3:39:26 | 3:39:36 | |
aware, every single person who is
spoken in this debate has supported | 3:39:36 | 3:39:40 | |
the measure being introduced by the
right reverend prelate. Would she at | 3:39:40 | 3:39:47 | |
least be prepared to consider and
just as importantly the right | 3:39:47 | 3:39:50 | |
reverend prelate in future
discussions that the inclusion of | 3:39:50 | 3:39:56 | |
humanist marriage doesn't damage
this Bill but actually enhances the | 3:39:56 | 3:40:00 | |
Bill. I think the point that I'm
making is that to amend the existing | 3:40:00 | 3:40:09 | |
law on marriage to make provision
for legally valid humanist | 3:40:09 | 3:40:12 | |
ceremonies would involve a huge
range of issues. I think the | 3:40:12 | 3:40:15 | |
important thing... The fact is it's
already in law. That humanist | 3:40:15 | 3:40:26 | |
marriages should be recognised
legally. All it needs is a Minister | 3:40:26 | 3:40:30 | |
of order. It actually doesn't need
to be in this Bill. What would be | 3:40:30 | 3:40:39 | |
wonderful would be an assurance from
the Minister that the Minister will | 3:40:39 | 3:40:43 | |
take forwards the need with some
urgency for a ministerial order and | 3:40:43 | 3:40:51 | |
actually have it done, and then of
course it does not actually need any | 3:40:51 | 3:40:58 | |
legislative change. Is actually
quite helpful what she says because | 3:40:58 | 3:41:05 | |
I'm very happy to discuss this
matter further. The point I'm making | 3:41:05 | 3:41:09 | |
today is that this is a very
narrowly drawn Bill, and two in | 3:41:09 | 3:41:15 | |
anyway expand upon it would actually
risk the Bill in its passage through | 3:41:15 | 3:41:20 | |
your Lordships house. I am pleading
with noble Lords to stick to the | 3:41:20 | 3:41:28 | |
content of what this Bill stirs.
Certainly we can have discussions | 3:41:28 | 3:41:35 | |
about humanist marriages outside the
chamber but that's the play I'm | 3:41:35 | 3:41:37 | |
making. I'm not denigrating what the
noble lord said. The minute we start | 3:41:37 | 3:41:47 | |
amending bills like this the more we
are in danger they do not secure | 3:41:47 | 3:41:50 | |
their way through. The noble lady
asked to see draft regulations | 3:41:50 | 3:41:58 | |
before committee and that is our
aim, to make a draft of the | 3:41:58 | 3:42:03 | |
affirmative regulations available
before the Committee Stage of this | 3:42:03 | 3:42:06 | |
Bill. The noble lady also asked to
clarify the definition of parent. | 3:42:06 | 3:42:18 | |
The regulations will prescribe who
can be included under the headings | 3:42:18 | 3:42:21 | |
for both parents of the couple in
the marriage entry and this will | 3:42:21 | 3:42:26 | |
enable us to keep pace with societal
developments as well as family | 3:42:26 | 3:42:33 | |
composition changes. The noble lady
Bakewell asked is there any | 3:42:33 | 3:42:37 | |
intention to reform marriage law.
This Bill simply modernises marriage | 3:42:37 | 3:42:45 | |
registration and facilitates change
to the register entry to allow the | 3:42:45 | 3:42:49 | |
inclusion of both parents' names.
The Bill isn't intended to include | 3:42:49 | 3:42:53 | |
wider marriage | 3:42:53 | 3:42:54 | |
Lady Morris Bolton asked a valid
question, what is putting the entry | 3:43:02 | 3:43:07 | |
if you don't know who your parents,
particularly your father, might be | 3:43:07 | 3:43:10 | |
at the moment? Although there will
be proficient in both parents to be | 3:43:10 | 3:43:15 | |
included in the marriage entry,
there is the option to leave this | 3:43:15 | 3:43:19 | |
blank as is, I understand, the case
now. My noble friend Lady C, asked | 3:43:19 | 3:43:26 | |
about pursuing nurses that the cost
of the marriage certificate will not | 3:43:26 | 3:43:32 | |
be raised as she is concerned it
will discourage people from marrying | 3:43:32 | 3:43:36 | |
because of the additional cost and
processes. Fees for marriage | 3:43:36 | 3:43:40 | |
certificates are set at a cost
recovery basis using HM Treasury | 3:43:40 | 3:43:44 | |
guidance and reviewed annually. The
bill would not directly lead to an | 3:43:44 | 3:43:50 | |
increase in costs. The noble lady
lady fluff it was so perfectly | 3:43:50 | 3:43:57 | |
content with the bill but she just
thought she might talk about sharia | 3:43:57 | 3:44:01 | |
marriages! But I think she knows
that the scope of the bill is | 3:44:01 | 3:44:08 | |
narrowly about marriage
registration. Can I just say one | 3:44:08 | 3:44:13 | |
word? I don't expect it to be in
this bill, I have no intention of | 3:44:13 | 3:44:18 | |
putting it in this bill, but I
wanted to draw attention to this | 3:44:18 | 3:44:22 | |
fact, and I would be very grateful
if you would allow me to come and | 3:44:22 | 3:44:26 | |
talk to you. My Lords, anyone can
come and talk to me about any issue | 3:44:26 | 3:44:33 | |
pertaining to the Home Office, I
will give that assurance on the | 3:44:33 | 3:44:35 | |
floor of the house. I know how
honourable but noble lady's | 3:44:35 | 3:44:40 | |
intentions are. My nobility as for
assurances on security, which is a | 3:44:40 | 3:44:46 | |
higher priority. Proposed changes
will increase the security of | 3:44:46 | 3:44:52 | |
marriage records, which is very
important, and currently the | 3:44:52 | 3:44:55 | |
requirement for open marriage
register books and the blank | 3:44:55 | 3:44:59 | |
certificates held in churches and
other religious buildings can be a | 3:44:59 | 3:45:02 | |
target of death as we have heard.
The solution in this bill should | 3:45:02 | 3:45:07 | |
minimise that public protection risk
as marriage registers are currently | 3:45:07 | 3:45:13 | |
held in some 30,000 different
religious buildings. The | 3:45:13 | 3:45:16 | |
certificates themselves will still
be printed on paper with secure | 3:45:16 | 3:45:19 | |
features in the same way as now. The
noble lady Lady Gale asked if a | 3:45:19 | 3:45:29 | |
timetable for changes could be
confirmed. Subject to the successful | 3:45:29 | 3:45:35 | |
passage of the bill, implementation
will involve clearly among other | 3:45:35 | 3:45:39 | |
things and affirmative regulations
being made and system changes and | 3:45:39 | 3:45:46 | |
training and guidance for local
registration service and for those | 3:45:46 | 3:45:48 | |
who solemnise marriages. We would
aim to implement reforms as soon as | 3:45:48 | 3:45:54 | |
possible following Royal Assent. My
Lords, I think it has been an | 3:45:54 | 3:46:00 | |
excellent debate this morning and I
know the noble Lord recognise the | 3:46:00 | 3:46:03 | |
importance of taking these changes
forward, which modernises the | 3:46:03 | 3:46:08 | |
process of registering marriages. I
would like to thank the noble Lords | 3:46:08 | 3:46:13 | |
for the very helpful debate and
particularly I am keen and grateful | 3:46:13 | 3:46:18 | |
to hear a wide range of concerns
from various different parts of the | 3:46:18 | 3:46:22 | |
house. We have had such a
comprehensive response on many of | 3:46:22 | 3:46:27 | |
the technical answers to questions
that I don't think I need to add to | 3:46:27 | 3:46:30 | |
them. I just want to say one or two
briefings, if I may. I recognise | 3:46:30 | 3:46:36 | |
there is a concern about a humanist
marriages, I do want to stress that | 3:46:36 | 3:46:43 | |
having taken advice, I have been
told again and again and again if we | 3:46:43 | 3:46:47 | |
are going to get this very simple
but really key win, the more it gets | 3:46:47 | 3:46:53 | |
amended, the less likely it is to
get through. I have been approached | 3:46:53 | 3:46:57 | |
with many requests that we put all
sorts of things in this and the | 3:46:57 | 3:47:00 | |
Abeid I keep getting from a very
experienced members of your | 3:47:00 | 3:47:05 | |
lordship's house is to keep it
absolutely simple. I am also | 3:47:05 | 3:47:09 | |
slightly puzzled, perhaps we could
talk about it afterwards with the | 3:47:09 | 3:47:14 | |
noble lady Baroness Meacher who have
conceded that it does not need to be | 3:47:14 | 3:47:17 | |
in this bill as I understood what
she was saying a few moments ago. | 3:47:17 | 3:47:23 | |
This, I believe, my Lords, is an
opportunity for us, as I said at the | 3:47:23 | 3:47:27 | |
beginning, to correct a clear and
historic injustice. I found myself | 3:47:27 | 3:47:32 | |
as I was referring earlier in touch
with all sorts of people I don't | 3:47:32 | 3:47:35 | |
necessarily get in touch with very
often, we have had articles in The | 3:47:35 | 3:47:40 | |
Stylist, Good Housekeeping, an
online platform for young women | 3:47:40 | 3:47:47 | |
called Border Poll, which I had
never heard before, all getting | 3:47:47 | 3:47:51 | |
involved and saying, please get this
change through -- and online | 3:47:51 | 3:47:56 | |
platform called The Pool. This will
get through if we work together, and | 3:47:56 | 3:48:10 | |
when the recommendations are
published we will look through those | 3:48:10 | 3:48:13 | |
details. With thanks to noble
colleagues, I ask the house to give | 3:48:13 | 3:48:16 | |
the bill a second reading. The
question is the bill be read a | 3:48:16 | 3:48:21 | |
second time funny as many are of the
opinion the content, the contrary | 3:48:21 | 3:48:26 | |
not content. The contents habit. I
beg to move this bill be committed | 3:48:26 | 3:48:30 | |
to a committee of the whole house.
The question is that this bill be | 3:48:30 | 3:48:36 | |
committed to a committee of the
whole house. As many as are of that | 3:48:36 | 3:48:40 | |
opinion say content, the contrary
not content. The contents habit. | 3:48:40 | 3:48:46 | |
Second reading of the open skies
agreement membership bill, Baroness | 3:48:46 | 3:48:48 | |
ransom.
My Lords, I beg to move this bill be | 3:48:48 | 3:48:55 | |
read a second time.
I want to start by thanking noble | 3:48:55 | 3:49:10 | |
Lords who have agreed to take part
in this debate today and I embark on | 3:49:10 | 3:49:16 | |
the second reading of this bill in
the absence of Government commitment | 3:49:16 | 3:49:21 | |
to emphasise the importance of the
united kingdom's retention of the | 3:49:21 | 3:49:25 | |
Open Skies Agreement following EU
Withdrawal Bill. Open skies is one | 3:49:25 | 3:49:30 | |
of a suite of aviation related
issues which the Government needs to | 3:49:30 | 3:49:35 | |
urgently address. Others include the
European aviation safety agency, | 3:49:35 | 3:49:41 | |
also the need for free movement of
skilled staff into an out of | 3:49:41 | 3:49:47 | |
mainland Europe, and UK border
arrangements with potential delays | 3:49:47 | 3:49:50 | |
for both passengers and goods. Since
1994, any EU airline has been free | 3:49:50 | 3:49:58 | |
to fly between any two points in
Europe, fuelling the rise of | 3:49:58 | 3:50:04 | |
low-cost airlines and drastically
reducing prices along existing | 3:50:04 | 3:50:07 | |
groups. And the UK has been at the
forefront of these changes, creating | 3:50:07 | 3:50:15 | |
an integrated aviation market with
Europe. It is important to emphasise | 3:50:15 | 3:50:20 | |
that much of the UK's market access
beyond the EU is also dependent upon | 3:50:20 | 3:50:28 | |
our EU membership. For instant, our
open skies agreement with the USA is | 3:50:28 | 3:50:33 | |
simply by virtue of being an EU
member. Finding 2007, the EU- US | 3:50:33 | 3:50:41 | |
transport agreement allows flights
from any EU country to any part of | 3:50:41 | 3:50:50 | |
the USA. It introduced closer
regulatory cooperation and provide | 3:50:50 | 3:50:55 | |
equal market access for any EU
carrier. In 2011, Norway and Iceland | 3:50:55 | 3:51:02 | |
taxied to the agreement as well. And
it was the US airlines, my Lords, | 3:51:02 | 3:51:10 | |
who first alerted me to the
international concern that the UK | 3:51:10 | 3:51:13 | |
might end up in a position where our
planes can't fly. The USA is our | 3:51:13 | 3:51:21 | |
biggest trading partner outside the
EU. But the EU and hence the UK also | 3:51:21 | 3:51:28 | |
has similar agreements with the
number of other countries, including | 3:51:28 | 3:51:34 | |
Canada, Israel, Jordan, Georgia,
Moldova and Morocco. Presently the | 3:51:34 | 3:51:40 | |
UK has the third-largest aviation
network in the world, carrying 144 | 3:51:40 | 3:51:46 | |
million passengers and 1 million
tonnes of cargo in 2015 alone. And | 3:51:46 | 3:51:54 | |
it is worth £52 billion annually to
our national income. Aviation is an | 3:51:54 | 3:52:01 | |
enabler of economic growth and
creator of jobs. People use airlines | 3:52:01 | 3:52:07 | |
to get somewhere, to do something,
to transport goods. Without daily | 3:52:07 | 3:52:13 | |
flights, the economy would stall and
the whole system freeze. And | 3:52:13 | 3:52:20 | |
commercial airlines have
revolutionised the way in which we | 3:52:20 | 3:52:22 | |
travel and how we view the rest of
the world, so this is not just a | 3:52:22 | 3:52:26 | |
case of seeing the world as a market
but as a community. When we | 3:52:26 | 3:52:32 | |
emphasise the importance of aviation
to business, we need to remember the | 3:52:32 | 3:52:35 | |
significance of travel for leisure
and to reunite families. Even at | 3:52:35 | 3:52:41 | |
Heathrow, our premier business hub,
60% of flight after leisure, family | 3:52:41 | 3:52:45 | |
and friends travel. Open Skies
Agreements between countries | 3:52:45 | 3:52:52 | |
eliminate the use of Government
restrictions of commercial air | 3:52:52 | 3:52:58 | |
carriers' services such as controls
of capacity and pricing, giving | 3:52:58 | 3:53:03 | |
carriers the ability to provide
convenient and affordable air | 3:53:03 | 3:53:08 | |
services. They give airlines the
right to fly across world. Prior to | 3:53:08 | 3:53:15 | |
this, my Lords, each country in
force over its territorial | 3:53:15 | 3:53:19 | |
boundaries, with air, land and sea
defences. An aircraft could be | 3:53:19 | 3:53:25 | |
apprehended or even shot down if it
was not to seek prior consent to fly | 3:53:25 | 3:53:30 | |
over an area. I am not anticipating
a return to that situation, but it | 3:53:30 | 3:53:38 | |
emphasises the importance of these
arrangements and indeed how far we | 3:53:38 | 3:53:41 | |
have come. Brexit threatens to throw
the industry's intricate | 3:53:41 | 3:53:49 | |
arrangements of roots and ownership
structures into chaos. The Open | 3:53:49 | 3:53:54 | |
Skies Agreement referred to in this
bill comprises two components. The | 3:53:54 | 3:54:02 | |
first, the intra- European
arrangement between ourselves and | 3:54:02 | 3:54:05 | |
other member states. Secondly, the
agreement between the EU and US. | 3:54:05 | 3:54:12 | |
Almost all flights in and out of the
UK are governed under one of these | 3:54:12 | 3:54:17 | |
agreements. If the Government truly
wished for Britain to be open for | 3:54:17 | 3:54:22 | |
business, then the industry needs
now to be assured that they will not | 3:54:22 | 3:54:29 | |
be disadvantaged by the impact of
Brexit. The low-cost short-haul | 3:54:29 | 3:54:35 | |
sector of the aviation industry,
including airlines Ryanair and | 3:54:35 | 3:54:40 | |
EasyJet, has repeatedly called upon
the Government for these assurances. | 3:54:40 | 3:54:46 | |
Current agreements have been the
catalyst for the successes of budget | 3:54:46 | 3:54:50 | |
airlines over the last 20 years.
EasyJet, for instance, holds an | 3:54:50 | 3:54:56 | |
operating licence in the UK but
relies on intra- European flights | 3:54:56 | 3:55:01 | |
for over 40% of its revenues and
continues to ambitiously expand its | 3:55:01 | 3:55:09 | |
network of routes connecting Europe.
Twice in July last year the Prime | 3:55:09 | 3:55:16 | |
Minister and her Transport Secretary
stated in Parliament that they had | 3:55:16 | 3:55:22 | |
held discussions with their US
counterparts on the issue of open | 3:55:22 | 3:55:27 | |
skies, but still no assurances were
forthcoming. And in this case there | 3:55:27 | 3:55:34 | |
is no fallback position, no safety
net, no World Trade Organisation | 3:55:34 | 3:55:39 | |
rules. And this issue will not go
away, because aviation agreements | 3:55:39 | 3:55:45 | |
stand outside EU rules on
membership. On the contrary, this is | 3:55:45 | 3:55:52 | |
the issue of greatest urgency,
because so much of our economy rests | 3:55:52 | 3:55:58 | |
on the shoulders of the aviation
industry. If you cannot fly, you | 3:55:58 | 3:56:04 | |
cannot trade, so it has to be fixed
first. If work is taking place on | 3:56:04 | 3:56:11 | |
this just a few hundred meters away
in Whitehall, then I would ask the | 3:56:11 | 3:56:17 | |
Minister, why not set our minds at
ease? This week the Secretary of | 3:56:17 | 3:56:22 | |
State gave a speech to airline
operators. I know that the noble | 3:56:22 | 3:56:26 | |
lady was there, as indeed I was, and
he said discussions on replacing | 3:56:26 | 3:56:35 | |
these arrangements have begun and
are progressing well. We will be | 3:56:35 | 3:56:41 | |
meeting US officials for a further
round of talks in the coming weeks. | 3:56:41 | 3:56:46 | |
So I hope that the noble lady of the
Minister will share with us today | 3:56:46 | 3:56:51 | |
some more detail on this, and place
on record exactly what the | 3:56:51 | 3:56:57 | |
Government's intentions are, and I
would also welcome information on | 3:56:57 | 3:57:02 | |
progress and talks with other third
countries such as Canada. A recent | 3:57:02 | 3:57:06 | |
EU Commission document sets out the
options for the future. It looks | 3:57:06 | 3:57:14 | |
both at the transition phase and
that the long-term situation, and | 3:57:14 | 3:57:20 | |
provides options for Deal or no
Deal, and in technical terms it | 3:57:20 | 3:57:25 | |
spells out a picture of the limited
rights and muffled voice we will | 3:57:25 | 3:57:31 | |
have on issues such as market access
and safety if the current | 3:57:31 | 3:57:36 | |
arrangements do not continue. | 3:57:36 | 3:57:42 | |
Evidence to the EU subcommittee even
suggested that we might have to fall | 3:57:42 | 3:57:46 | |
back on the elderly Bermuda two
agreement in the event of a no deal. | 3:57:46 | 3:57:54 | |
If the UK is to successfully go it
alone, then we must seek to retain | 3:57:54 | 3:57:59 | |
the aviation rights which we were
awarded as a member of the EU. The | 3:57:59 | 3:58:06 | |
clock is ticking, my lords. Tickets
for package holidays are already | 3:58:06 | 3:58:09 | |
being sold for spring 2019, on the
assumption that a deal will be in | 3:58:09 | 3:58:17 | |
place. Airlines sell tickets a year
ahead, tour operators up to 18 | 3:58:17 | 3:58:23 | |
months ahead. They need the public
reassurance only the government can | 3:58:23 | 3:58:28 | |
provide because the nearer we get to
March 2019, the more their customers | 3:58:28 | 3:58:34 | |
will want certainty about the
product they are buying. If an | 3:58:34 | 3:58:38 | |
agreement isn't reached, even
transitory there would be huge | 3:58:38 | 3:58:48 | |
economic disruption. These
agreements are fundamental to the | 3:58:48 | 3:58:51 | |
travel of millions of passengers and
the movement of billions of pounds | 3:58:51 | 3:58:54 | |
of freight, whilst keeping the cost
of air travel affordable for | 3:58:54 | 3:59:00 | |
ordinary people. My intention is as
succinct as the Bill itself, to gain | 3:59:00 | 3:59:06 | |
a clear commitment from the
government that the UK's membership | 3:59:06 | 3:59:10 | |
of the Open Skies Agreement will be
maintained, or that a new agreement | 3:59:10 | 3:59:16 | |
upon the same terms will be reached
prior to Brexit. Not just with the | 3:59:16 | 3:59:23 | |
US but with the remaining EU states
and with other third countries with | 3:59:23 | 3:59:27 | |
which we already have agreements,
ensuring the future prosperity of | 3:59:27 | 3:59:33 | |
the aviation industry and of the
country. My Lords, I beg to move. Is | 3:59:33 | 3:59:43 | |
this Bill now to be read a second
time? It's a great pleasure to | 3:59:43 | 3:59:48 | |
follow the baroness. We worked
together with the Minister on the | 3:59:48 | 3:59:53 | |
space industry Bill recently and I'm
very pleased to return to aviation | 3:59:53 | 3:59:58 | |
matters. Some years ago, I visited
Atlanta in the United States. At the | 3:59:58 | 4:00:08 | |
time Atlanta was booming and I saw
one of the chief architects of | 4:00:08 | 4:00:16 | |
Atlanta Falcons macros excess at
City Hall. I said to him, what has | 4:00:16 | 4:00:24 | |
promoted this tremendous resurgence
of Atlanta? He said it helps to have | 4:00:24 | 4:00:31 | |
the world headquarters of Coca-Cola
here. But he said the real big | 4:00:31 | 4:00:36 | |
decision they took was to campaign
for and succeed in getting at | 4:00:36 | 4:00:43 | |
Atlanta made one of the United
States' hub airports. Then he said | 4:00:43 | 4:00:47 | |
something which has always stuck in
my mind. He said airports are a bit | 4:00:47 | 4:00:54 | |
like the railhead in the old West.
Wherever the railway came to an end, | 4:00:54 | 4:01:00 | |
a town grew up, and economic
activity took place. He said that's | 4:01:00 | 4:01:06 | |
what airports do today. They are
engines of economic growth. | 4:01:06 | 4:01:12 | |
Therefore the future of our airports
and the traffic that they can carry | 4:01:12 | 4:01:18 | |
is extremely important. What I want
to put in context is this debate. 60 | 4:01:18 | 4:01:29 | |
years ago the late great Peter
Sellers mocked the then Prime | 4:01:29 | 4:01:32 | |
Minister Harold Macmillan with a
speech that completely consisted of | 4:01:32 | 4:01:39 | |
meaningless cliches. The most famous
of these was "This is not the time | 4:01:39 | 4:01:45 | |
for vague promises of better things
to come". And then proceeded to give | 4:01:45 | 4:01:49 | |
vague promises of better things to
come. Today that's not an amusing | 4:01:49 | 4:01:54 | |
piece of satire but the standard
response from ministers. Perhaps the | 4:01:54 | 4:02:00 | |
Minister will forgive me if I take
for an example the replied the noble | 4:02:00 | 4:02:06 | |
Baroness gave to a question about
how we intended to ensure equivalent | 4:02:06 | 4:02:14 | |
aviation standards with the EU. She
said "The government is considering | 4:02:14 | 4:02:23 | |
carefully all the potential
implications arising from the UK | 4:02:23 | 4:02:27 | |
exit from the EU, including the
implications for continued or | 4:02:27 | 4:02:32 | |
discontinued participation in the
European aviation safety agency. It | 4:02:32 | 4:02:36 | |
is the government's intention to
maintain consistently high standards | 4:02:36 | 4:02:40 | |
of aviation safety once we have left
the EU. As part of the existing | 4:02:40 | 4:02:46 | |
negotiations the government will
discuss with the EU how best to | 4:02:46 | 4:02:52 | |
continue co-operation in the field
of aviation safety and standards". | 4:02:52 | 4:02:57 | |
Vague promises of better things to
come. On Monday the CBI | 4:02:57 | 4:03:03 | |
director-general Caroline Fairbairn
called for a greater sense of | 4:03:03 | 4:03:06 | |
urgency in the Brexit talks to give
clarity to companies that would | 4:03:06 | 4:03:10 | |
otherwise need to trigger
alternative brands including moving | 4:03:10 | 4:03:13 | |
jobs and investment offshore.
Earlier this week I attended a | 4:03:13 | 4:03:19 | |
future technology Showcase promoted
by Rolls worries where similar pleas | 4:03:19 | 4:03:24 | |
for certainty were made -- promoted
by Rolls-Royce. Earlier this week | 4:03:24 | 4:03:29 | |
the CEO of JP Morgan warned the lack
of certainty and directions | 4:03:29 | 4:03:32 | |
threatened jobs in financial
services and similar warnings have | 4:03:32 | 4:03:37 | |
come from the creative industries
sector. We are too near the | 4:03:37 | 4:03:41 | |
precipice for vague promises of
better things to come being harassed | 4:03:41 | 4:03:44 | |
bonds to these cries of distress
from almost every sector of industry | 4:03:44 | 4:03:48 | |
-- being her response to these cries
of distress. We know why the | 4:03:48 | 4:03:53 | |
government continues with the
meaningless mantra of Brexit means | 4:03:53 | 4:03:57 | |
Brexit. If the Prime Minister ever
tries to put fresh on the bone of | 4:03:57 | 4:04:03 | |
the Brexit strategy, the choke chain
she is held is quickly yanked. Talks | 4:04:03 | 4:04:13 | |
of a leadership bid are reactivated.
In any kind of rational world the | 4:04:13 | 4:04:17 | |
government would rush to embrace
this Bill as a means of getting | 4:04:17 | 4:04:21 | |
ahead of the curve by giving
certainty to this very important | 4:04:21 | 4:04:26 | |
sector. The excellent House of Lords
library briefing for the Bill says | 4:04:26 | 4:04:34 | |
in 2015 the aviation sector
contributed £55 billion to the UK's | 4:04:34 | 4:04:39 | |
gross domestic product and that it
supports nearly a million jobs. When | 4:04:39 | 4:04:43 | |
I was a lad I worked in the
Blackpool Tower Circus. I won't tell | 4:04:43 | 4:04:48 | |
you what my job was there! LAUGHTER
But the government Brexit | 4:04:48 | 4:04:56 | |
negotiations look more and more like
one of those acts are used to see at | 4:04:56 | 4:05:00 | |
the circus where a performer would
spin more and more plates on the end | 4:05:00 | 4:05:04 | |
of a stick. Keeping the plates
spinning at the best of times is | 4:05:04 | 4:05:10 | |
difficult, but it becomes almost
impossible when there are parts of | 4:05:10 | 4:05:16 | |
the Conservative Party and parts of
the Cabinet are all quite happy to | 4:05:16 | 4:05:19 | |
see the plates come crashing to the
floor. A successful aviation policy | 4:05:19 | 4:05:25 | |
is crucial to Britain's economic
future. My noble friend has made a | 4:05:25 | 4:05:30 | |
practical suggestion in this Bill
which shows a way forward for this | 4:05:30 | 4:05:34 | |
important sector. If we can keep
these plates spinning it will be to | 4:05:34 | 4:05:39 | |
the benefit of us all. I have no
idea he came straight from the | 4:05:39 | 4:05:53 | |
circus! Let me join in the
congratulations for the opportunity | 4:05:53 | 4:05:58 | |
to discuss these matters and discuss
aviation in your Lordships' House. | 4:05:58 | 4:06:05 | |
This provides us with an opportunity
to do so. Easy to forget that 40 odd | 4:06:05 | 4:06:14 | |
years ago the aviation world was
very different from that which we | 4:06:14 | 4:06:17 | |
have today. All over the world,
state owned airlines operated | 4:06:17 | 4:06:26 | |
infrequently and that high prices.
Indeed, sky-high affairs, frequent | 4:06:26 | 4:06:31 | |
services and travel was to adapt to
a current slogan, in those days for | 4:06:31 | 4:06:38 | |
the few and not the many. So far as
flying was concerned. It took the | 4:06:38 | 4:06:46 | |
Carter administration to pass an
airline deregulation act in the USA | 4:06:46 | 4:06:53 | |
which the rest of the world took
their cue from. I remember | 4:06:53 | 4:06:56 | |
travelling to New York in 1980
courtesy of a TV company, we were | 4:06:56 | 4:07:06 | |
filming the Carter Reagan election
battle. I sat next to an elderly | 4:07:06 | 4:07:13 | |
lady from Scotland who didn't know
much about aviation policy but knew | 4:07:13 | 4:07:17 | |
that Freddie Laker was a man who had
enabled her to fly to see her | 4:07:17 | 4:07:22 | |
relatives across continents.
Although we accept in 2018 that such | 4:07:22 | 4:07:28 | |
a thing is a regular occurrence, for
her it was something new and | 4:07:28 | 4:07:34 | |
something dramatic. There have of
course been agreements between our | 4:07:34 | 4:07:38 | |
two nations, the UK and the US,
aviation agreements over the years. | 4:07:38 | 4:07:43 | |
The two Bermuda agreements. The Open
Skies Agreement has brought many | 4:07:43 | 4:07:53 | |
benefits but it is tilted towards
the United States itself. While the | 4:07:53 | 4:08:01 | |
agreement allows any EU airline and
any US airline to fly from any point | 4:08:01 | 4:08:07 | |
in the EU and any point in the US,
only US airlines can operate into EU | 4:08:07 | 4:08:22 | |
flights. But European airlines are
not allowed into United States | 4:08:22 | 4:08:28 | |
right. In the land of the free, yet
the aware that foreign companies are | 4:08:28 | 4:08:37 | |
not allowed to purchase a
controlling stake in any United | 4:08:37 | 4:08:41 | |
States airline. As an aside I think
that's an eminently sensible policy. | 4:08:41 | 4:08:47 | |
The fact this country has seen over
the years so many of its strategic | 4:08:47 | 4:08:50 | |
industries falling into foreign
hands and into the hands of people | 4:08:50 | 4:08:56 | |
who have no great allegiance to the
UK might be a retrograde step. The | 4:08:56 | 4:09:01 | |
US also of course has some control
over its civil airlines through its | 4:09:01 | 4:09:10 | |
civil reserve air fleet. I'm always
amused when I hear Americans | 4:09:10 | 4:09:14 | |
complaining about subsidies to
companies like Airbus for example | 4:09:14 | 4:09:17 | |
when one reflects that much of the
US aviation strategy over the years | 4:09:17 | 4:09:21 | |
has been assisted financially and in
other ways by the United States | 4:09:21 | 4:09:27 | |
policy. Despite the Open Skies
Agreement it would be possible for | 4:09:27 | 4:09:33 | |
any foreign airline to carry
military and government personnel in | 4:09:33 | 4:09:35 | |
any numbers around the world because
of the fly America act. As the noble | 4:09:35 | 4:09:48 | |
Baroness reminds us, this is not
just about Open Skies koh and the | 4:09:48 | 4:09:52 | |
US, it's about the European Union
and the UK itself. I picked up a | 4:09:52 | 4:10:01 | |
newspaper cutting that I found the
other day. I'm not in the habit of | 4:10:01 | 4:10:06 | |
holding a newspaper cutting but it's
from 1983 and it's the day before | 4:10:06 | 4:10:10 | |
the general election in 1983 which I
had some personal interest in at the | 4:10:10 | 4:10:15 | |
time. In the classified section,
there were some advertisements for | 4:10:15 | 4:10:21 | |
holidays abroad. A company called
Meridian were advertising what they | 4:10:21 | 4:10:28 | |
called a phone and fly June specials
from Birmingham Airport. In 1983 it | 4:10:28 | 4:10:35 | |
was possible to fly to Tenerife once
a week for £118 plus taxes. If my | 4:10:35 | 4:10:42 | |
arithmetic is correct that amounts
to sue hundred and £78 40 today plus | 4:10:42 | 4:10:53 | |
taxes -- £278 today plus taxes. One
can fly to Tenerife from Birmingham | 4:10:53 | 4:10:59 | |
£68. You can a deal for £42. There
was also an advertisement for Malaga | 4:10:59 | 4:11:11 | |
at £88 back in those days. 12
flights a week currently between | 4:11:11 | 4:11:16 | |
Birmingham and Malaga. Entirely due
in my view to the membership of the | 4:11:16 | 4:11:23 | |
UK and subsequent agreements to do
that. Ministers in either house are | 4:11:23 | 4:11:40 | |
normally sent to answer debates like
this on the understanding they say | 4:11:40 | 4:11:46 | |
as little as possible and offend us
few people as possible. The | 4:11:46 | 4:11:50 | |
coalition were no different. I hope
this philosophy we seem to have | 4:11:50 | 4:11:57 | |
about Brexit, it will be all right
on the night, the Minister | 4:11:57 | 4:12:02 | |
recognises that is a little worn out
and if the aviation world is to be | 4:12:02 | 4:12:09 | |
reassured about the future after
Brexit, I'm afraid the Minister will | 4:12:09 | 4:12:12 | |
have to say a bit more than the
Department for Transport said | 4:12:12 | 4:12:15 | |
already. I hope the noble Baroness
will take it as far as possible and | 4:12:15 | 4:12:24 | |
the government accepts its
provisions. | 4:12:24 | 4:12:29 | |
Mayites congratulate my noble friend
on securing a second reading of her | 4:12:29 | 4:12:33 | |
bill, which I am very pleased to
support. The substance of this bill | 4:12:33 | 4:12:37 | |
is seeking to remedy what appears to
me to be symptomatic of the | 4:12:37 | 4:12:41 | |
Government's chaotic approach to
Brexit. I have to admit I'm not sure | 4:12:41 | 4:12:46 | |
what the origins of that chaos are,
could it be the Government does not | 4:12:46 | 4:12:49 | |
know what it is doing, could it be
they are keeping their progress on | 4:12:49 | 4:12:54 | |
this and other issues from us, or is
it simply that they are crossing | 4:12:54 | 4:12:57 | |
their fingers and hoping for the
best? Someone described extracting | 4:12:57 | 4:13:02 | |
the UK from the European Union as
trying to remove eggs from a cake. | 4:13:02 | 4:13:05 | |
As my noble friend has said, open
skies is a generic term to cover the | 4:13:05 | 4:13:10 | |
agreements between the UK and US
that allows flights between any EU | 4:13:10 | 4:13:16 | |
and US airport by any EU or US
carrier, it is a term used to cover | 4:13:16 | 4:13:21 | |
a suite of agreements between EU and
third-party countries and between | 4:13:21 | 4:13:25 | |
member countries within the EU. Not
only do these agreements cover | 4:13:25 | 4:13:30 | |
authority to fly between airports
but other aspects such as | 4:13:30 | 4:13:35 | |
environmental and safety issues,
such as airport security, to ensure | 4:13:35 | 4:13:38 | |
that air travel is safe. I am only
just beginning to understand the | 4:13:38 | 4:13:45 | |
nature and complexity of open skies
and the complexity of negotiating | 4:13:45 | 4:13:50 | |
replacement agreements. No doubt the
Government will say it is in the | 4:13:50 | 4:13:53 | |
interest of all countries that the
freedom of airlines to fly into out | 4:13:53 | 4:13:57 | |
of the UK is maintained but legally
these cannot be done and indeed | 4:13:57 | 4:14:01 | |
passenger safety could be
jeopardised if such legally binding | 4:14:01 | 4:14:04 | |
agreements are not maintained or
replaced. As with other important | 4:14:04 | 4:14:11 | |
issues such as cooperation on
tackling serious and organised crime | 4:14:11 | 4:14:15 | |
and terrorism, there is no do
nothing alternative, as my noble | 4:14:15 | 4:14:20 | |
friend has said. Flights between the
UK and all those countries including | 4:14:20 | 4:14:26 | |
our two most important trading
partners, all EU countries and the | 4:14:26 | 4:14:31 | |
USA, as well as third-party
countries where the USA is dependent | 4:14:31 | 4:14:35 | |
on EU open skies agreements, will
have to be grounded if replacement | 4:14:35 | 4:14:39 | |
agreements are not in place if we
were unfortunate enough to leave the | 4:14:39 | 4:14:44 | |
EU. As my noble friend Lord McNally
has suggested, this is an important | 4:14:44 | 4:14:49 | |
bill in highlighting a general
problem with exiting the EU. The | 4:14:49 | 4:14:53 | |
Government appears to be taking a
complacent attitude based on the | 4:14:53 | 4:14:56 | |
premise that replacement agreement
-- replacements agreements for the | 4:14:56 | 4:15:03 | |
existing arrangements which resulted
from the EU membership can easily be | 4:15:03 | 4:15:06 | |
replicated. Well, they cannot. If
agreement between third parties and | 4:15:06 | 4:15:12 | |
the EU that we are relying on, new
agreements will have to be made with | 4:15:12 | 4:15:17 | |
each of those third-party countries.
Currently, airlines are forced | 4:15:17 | 4:15:21 | |
sometimes kicking and screaming to
compensate passengers whose flights | 4:15:21 | 4:15:24 | |
are delayed or cancelled because we
are a member of the EU. The noble -- | 4:15:24 | 4:15:30 | |
can the noble Baroness say something
about what the the Government will | 4:15:30 | 4:15:36 | |
legislate to protect passengers once
we have left the EU? My noble friend | 4:15:36 | 4:15:40 | |
has also mentioned border issues
following Brexit. Noble Lords will | 4:15:40 | 4:15:47 | |
buy this time be bored with me
raising, as I have done on numerous | 4:15:47 | 4:15:51 | |
occasions in this chamber, the
issues at the UK border, | 4:15:51 | 4:15:55 | |
particularly at Heathrow airport.
With queues at terminal four for | 4:15:55 | 4:16:00 | |
non-EEA passengers peaking at 2.5
hours in January, when I ask what | 4:16:00 | 4:16:06 | |
contingency plans, not what the
answer is but what contingency | 4:16:06 | 4:16:09 | |
planning the Government have done
about EU nationals joining those | 4:16:09 | 4:16:13 | |
queues after Brexit, there is no
response. Perhaps the noble Baroness | 4:16:13 | 4:16:18 | |
the Minister can enlighten us today?
There could be legal issues as well. | 4:16:18 | 4:16:24 | |
I'm not an expert on this particular
issue, unlike my noble friend, but | 4:16:24 | 4:16:28 | |
in relation to the sharing of
information and intelligence, for | 4:16:28 | 4:16:32 | |
example, there are no examples of
sharing vital intelligence data with | 4:16:32 | 4:16:36 | |
non-EU countries who are not part of
the European Economic Area or part | 4:16:36 | 4:16:41 | |
of the Schengen agreement. So I
might argue that the issues around | 4:16:41 | 4:16:47 | |
tackling crime and terrorism also
face a cliff edge with no safety | 4:16:47 | 4:16:51 | |
net, albeit that I might be mixing
my metaphors! Can the noble Baroness | 4:16:51 | 4:16:56 | |
the Minister advise the house
whether the Government has | 4:16:56 | 4:16:59 | |
identified any such legal obstacles
to re-negotiate Open Skies | 4:16:59 | 4:17:04 | |
Agreements? Of course with airport
security, environmental conditions | 4:17:04 | 4:17:08 | |
being part of the current open skies
agreements, there is a need for | 4:17:08 | 4:17:13 | |
there to be an arbitration system in
case there is a dispute between | 4:17:13 | 4:17:16 | |
countries if they are believed to be
failing to be compliant with | 4:17:16 | 4:17:19 | |
conditions. One possible solution
would be to retain membership of the | 4:17:19 | 4:17:25 | |
European Common aviation area which
spans the EU as well as some non-EU | 4:17:25 | 4:17:31 | |
countries and provide unrestricted
access. However, this would be | 4:17:31 | 4:17:34 | |
subject to the European Court of
Justice, something Theresa May has | 4:17:34 | 4:17:38 | |
recklessly ruled out post Brexit.
Can the noble Baroness the Minister | 4:17:38 | 4:17:44 | |
tell the house whether the European
Court of Justice will play a role in | 4:17:44 | 4:17:48 | |
adjudicating in such cases of
dispute involving the replacement | 4:17:48 | 4:17:52 | |
for existing EU Open Skies
agreements, and, if not, what body | 4:17:52 | 4:17:56 | |
would need to be set up, and what
could be the additional costs to the | 4:17:56 | 4:18:04 | |
UK as a consequence? Of course, the
noble Baroness the Minister, like | 4:18:04 | 4:18:08 | |
many of her colleagues, may feel all
these issues are a matter for | 4:18:08 | 4:18:14 | |
negotiation and that the
negotiations are not at a stage | 4:18:14 | 4:18:16 | |
where these questions can be after,
yet Ryanair's chief Executive | 4:18:16 | 4:18:21 | |
Officer Michael O'Leary said this
summer that flights for 2019 would | 4:18:21 | 4:18:26 | |
be cancelled for months after the UK
leads the EU unless an agreement can | 4:18:26 | 4:18:30 | |
be reached within a year. And the
chair of the airport operators | 4:18:30 | 4:18:36 | |
Association recently told its annual
conference that the deadline for the | 4:18:36 | 4:18:41 | |
aviation industry is just four
months away. My Lords, that is why | 4:18:41 | 4:18:48 | |
this bill is necessary and that is
why I supported. This has inevitably | 4:18:48 | 4:18:56 | |
been a short debate but as my noble
friend, who deserves commendation | 4:18:56 | 4:18:59 | |
for bringing this, for securing this
topic in the ballot and bringing | 4:18:59 | 4:19:06 | |
this to our attention, is a
massively important issue for the | 4:19:06 | 4:19:11 | |
future of our country. As with many
members of this House, I am a | 4:19:11 | 4:19:17 | |
regular flyer and to some extent
should declare an interest, I | 4:19:17 | 4:19:21 | |
benefit, as others do, from there
being a safe, secure and reliable | 4:19:21 | 4:19:25 | |
aviation sector in this country. But
as my noble friend indicated, this | 4:19:25 | 4:19:29 | |
is not happening by accident, and
therefore it is absolutely right | 4:19:29 | 4:19:36 | |
that we focus on this vital issue.
In fact, I will be leaving this | 4:19:36 | 4:19:42 | |
debate straight to Heathrow airport
to go home, and, as a regular flyer | 4:19:42 | 4:19:48 | |
from that airport, today I will be
on a plane which is one of 3000 | 4:19:48 | 4:19:54 | |
departures from a UK airport, but I
will be in the minority because it | 4:19:54 | 4:19:58 | |
will be a domestic flight and, as my
noble friend indicated, 60% of those | 4:19:58 | 4:20:04 | |
flights will be taking off and
landing in Europe. So our | 4:20:04 | 4:20:10 | |
relationship with our nearest
neighbours within this, aviation | 4:20:10 | 4:20:16 | |
market and our industry is of vital
importance. And as my noble friend | 4:20:16 | 4:20:21 | |
Lord paddock indicated, our
relationships connected with | 4:20:21 | 4:20:25 | |
immigration, intelligence, data are
all interlinked. If I was travelling | 4:20:25 | 4:20:34 | |
40 years ago, before I was born, as
a member of this has come back home | 4:20:34 | 4:20:38 | |
to Edinburgh, the situation would be
radically different. You can visit | 4:20:38 | 4:20:42 | |
the Air Museum at East Fortune
outside Edinburgh, you can see the | 4:20:42 | 4:20:46 | |
British Airways stand-by plane that
was always marmite in case the | 4:20:46 | 4:20:49 | |
shuttle flight was full and a
traveller could have a rip-off | 4:20:49 | 4:20:58 | |
ticket for the Edinburgh London
shuttle flight, no ID needed, no | 4:20:58 | 4:21:03 | |
booking necessary, you show up with
good tear of slip and if the flight | 4:21:03 | 4:21:06 | |
was full they put on the next flight
for the shuttle route. It is | 4:21:06 | 4:21:10 | |
inconceivable that we would go back
to historical regulations are my | 4:21:10 | 4:21:13 | |
noble friend is right, we need to be
part of the future and that is why | 4:21:13 | 4:21:18 | |
enhanced clarity is necessary. I
have lived all of my life as a | 4:21:18 | 4:21:25 | |
British subject and now as the
European Union citizen, and the | 4:21:25 | 4:21:29 | |
growth of air travel is part of a
generational trend. When I was born | 4:21:29 | 4:21:34 | |
in 1974 there were 4 million air
passengers that year in the world. | 4:21:34 | 4:21:38 | |
In 2016 there were 3.7 billion. That
is why a complex lattice of | 4:21:38 | 4:21:45 | |
international commitments and
regulations is in place, and it is | 4:21:45 | 4:21:48 | |
necessary that the United Kingdom is
not only part of those going forward | 4:21:48 | 4:21:54 | |
after Brexit but continues to play a
role in shaping them, because far | 4:21:54 | 4:21:58 | |
from Britain having been held back
from our membership of the EU, and | 4:21:58 | 4:22:04 | |
organisations such as the European
aviation standards agency, the | 4:22:04 | 4:22:11 | |
United Kingdom has benefited from it
and in many aspects has shaped these | 4:22:11 | 4:22:20 | |
regulations. For example, in the
debate so far, we have heard about | 4:22:20 | 4:22:25 | |
European safety agency and in this
-- this in many respects sums up the | 4:22:25 | 4:22:33 | |
dilemma the Government has placed
itself in and is impacting on the | 4:22:33 | 4:22:35 | |
country because this is a community
agency with its own legal | 4:22:35 | 4:22:39 | |
personality and governed by European
public law. Membership of the | 4:22:39 | 4:22:45 | |
European aviation safety agency is
not consistent with Government | 4:22:45 | 4:22:49 | |
policy, it is against the red line
that the Prime Minister has set, but | 4:22:49 | 4:22:54 | |
we hear repeatedly that the
transport Secretary says to our | 4:22:54 | 4:22:57 | |
aviation industry that the UK will
continue to be under the aegis of | 4:22:57 | 4:23:06 | |
the European aviation safety
authority. If not, we have heard | 4:23:06 | 4:23:11 | |
from the aviation safety agency
chief executive about the | 4:23:11 | 4:23:14 | |
consequences. He said it was his
intention or hope that we remain an | 4:23:14 | 4:23:17 | |
active member of the EASA because it
would be a massive regulatory burden | 4:23:17 | 4:23:23 | |
if we were separate from it. He
highlighted the fact that the UK and | 4:23:23 | 4:23:28 | |
France already comprise two thirds
of all aviation regulations, it is | 4:23:28 | 4:23:32 | |
how such a leadership role we
currently have, 90% of outsourced | 4:23:32 | 4:23:36 | |
activity of the agency is from
France and the UK, and that | 4:23:36 | 4:23:41 | |
relationship is fundamental to our
ongoing negotiations on trade. It is | 4:23:41 | 4:23:46 | |
inconceivable that any modern trade
agreement will not have a key | 4:23:46 | 4:23:49 | |
component about aviation regulation,
safety and environmental, and | 4:23:49 | 4:23:55 | |
therefore if the Government has set
this red line of which, when I asked | 4:23:55 | 4:24:00 | |
a question to the noble lady the
minister's colleague Baroness | 4:24:00 | 4:24:04 | |
Fairhead last week, she said it
would be consistent with the red | 4:24:04 | 4:24:09 | |
line that the Prime Minister has
said, we are putting ourselves in | 4:24:09 | 4:24:12 | |
the position where we are setting
back the United Kingdom. If we take | 4:24:12 | 4:24:16 | |
an alternative route, such as
Switzerland's relationship with the | 4:24:16 | 4:24:20 | |
single European skies, they have
accepted EU aviation law and | 4:24:20 | 4:24:27 | |
jurisdiction but Swiss airlines are
granted only seven of the nine | 4:24:27 | 4:24:30 | |
possible freedoms of the air. Are we
seeking all of the nine freedoms and | 4:24:30 | 4:24:36 | |
being separate completely from the
ECJ jurisdiction? I would like to | 4:24:36 | 4:24:41 | |
hear from the Minister how that is
possible. My noble friend is | 4:24:41 | 4:24:45 | |
absolutely correct, to conclude on
the point, in seeking clarification. | 4:24:45 | 4:24:48 | |
We are not seeking to have the book
that our negotiation team are having | 4:24:48 | 4:24:55 | |
but we are hoping to have the same
respect in this parliament that the | 4:24:55 | 4:24:59 | |
European Parliament has when it
comes to ongoing negotiations. When | 4:24:59 | 4:25:03 | |
the commission has said its mandate
by the Council of ministers that | 4:25:03 | 4:25:06 | |
will be public, we seek the same, we
want clarity on the single European | 4:25:06 | 4:25:10 | |
skies, clarity on the single
European, on the market for | 4:25:10 | 4:25:15 | |
aviation, clarity on the EASA, and
we need it now, and I think that | 4:25:15 | 4:25:19 | |
would be the respectable position of
our Parliament and would mean that | 4:25:19 | 4:25:23 | |
our industry and passengers have the
confidence that they need in this | 4:25:23 | 4:25:29 | |
crucial industry for British
economy. May I also thank the noble | 4:25:29 | 4:25:36 | |
lady Baroness Granderson for this
imaginative way of focusing the | 4:25:36 | 4:25:40 | |
Government's attention on this vital
and urgent issue. Quite simply, if | 4:25:40 | 4:25:45 | |
we don't get this right, British
carriers may not be able to fly | 4:25:45 | 4:25:50 | |
domestically within the EU. As the
EU's ad hoc working party on Article | 4:25:50 | 4:25:57 | |
50's internal discussion paper of
the 16th of January said, as a third | 4:25:57 | 4:26:01 | |
country the UK ceases to be part of
fully liberalised EU aviation | 4:26:01 | 4:26:07 | |
market. It is clear that in
Brussels, work is well apace on | 4:26:07 | 4:26:11 | |
this. An area of great urgency,
since there is no fallback WTO | 4:26:11 | 4:26:20 | |
position, as we heard from the
honourable lady, so a decision is | 4:26:20 | 4:26:24 | |
critical. The airlines need to know
within weeks whether they can | 4:26:24 | 4:26:31 | |
continue current routes in 15
months' time. Schedules and slots | 4:26:31 | 4:26:35 | |
are decided early, with ticket
prices, ticket sales and therefore | 4:26:35 | 4:26:39 | |
the prices are packaged tours
following soon after. I am aware | 4:26:39 | 4:26:45 | |
that talks are ongoing and will
resume on Tuesday between the UK and | 4:26:45 | 4:26:50 | |
US new bilateral service
arrangements for after our exit or | 4:26:50 | 4:26:56 | |
following a transition. Whilst we
know both sides want to protect | 4:26:56 | 4:27:00 | |
current market access between these
two countries, we do need | 4:27:00 | 4:27:03 | |
reassurance from the Government that
this will not come at the expense of | 4:27:03 | 4:27:08 | |
our continued close relationship or
membership of the EU's single | 4:27:08 | 4:27:12 | |
aviation market from which UK
airlines and passengers have | 4:27:12 | 4:27:17 | |
benefited in the way that we have
heard today, along with the related | 4:27:17 | 4:27:21 | |
agreements between the EU and third
countries beyond the US which again | 4:27:21 | 4:27:26 | |
have benefited our travellers. Our
participation in the single aviation | 4:27:26 | 4:27:32 | |
market allowed the UK to develop the
largest aviation network in Europe | 4:27:32 | 4:27:37 | |
and the third largest in the world,
providing significant economic | 4:27:37 | 4:27:42 | |
benefits through inbound and
outbound tourism, our trading links, | 4:27:42 | 4:27:47 | |
investment in the infrastructure of
airports and access to them, whilst | 4:27:47 | 4:27:52 | |
providing British citizens with a
wide variety of destinations. | 4:27:52 | 4:27:58 | |
My Lords, having mentioned the
advantages to British citizens, may | 4:27:58 | 4:28:01 | |
I raise an issue of the importance
of consumer rights if we fall out of | 4:28:01 | 4:28:08 | |
the single aviation market. It's
about whether the EU's 206 one 2004 | 4:28:08 | 4:28:16 | |
flight delay legislation will
continue to apply once we leave the | 4:28:16 | 4:28:19 | |
EU. For example, with an EU airline
flight from a third country into the | 4:28:19 | 4:28:24 | |
UK or a UK airline from a third
country to an EU 27 member state, | 4:28:24 | 4:28:31 | |
what protection will there be for
consumers in any delay? As this | 4:28:31 | 4:28:39 | |
issue obviously cannot be covered by
the EU Withdrawal Bill as it depends | 4:28:39 | 4:28:44 | |
on reciprocity and as we no longer
be a member state for the purpose of | 4:28:44 | 4:28:50 | |
the current regulation, will be
highly dependent on the government | 4:28:50 | 4:28:55 | |
negotiating this compensation
package, presumably in the | 4:28:55 | 4:28:59 | |
withdrawal deal or more likely in a
subsequent agreement. Alternatively, | 4:28:59 | 4:29:04 | |
and perhaps preferably, our
association or membership of the | 4:29:04 | 4:29:11 | |
single aviation market could perhaps
include retention of EU 261 flight | 4:29:11 | 4:29:17 | |
delay regulation. So perhaps the
noble lady the Minister could | 4:29:17 | 4:29:21 | |
respond either in writing or today
if she is able to as to whether the | 4:29:21 | 4:29:30 | |
government is already pursuing such
a possibility. My Lords, looking | 4:29:30 | 4:29:34 | |
more broadly at the value of this
industry to our economy, according | 4:29:34 | 4:29:37 | |
to travel trade association Abta
outbound tourism directly sustains | 4:29:37 | 4:29:45 | |
more than 200,000 UK jobs and
supports another 170,000 indirectly. | 4:29:45 | 4:29:52 | |
While outbound tourism brings
significant financial benefit to the | 4:29:52 | 4:29:55 | |
destination countries in Europe, it
also benefits the Exchequer, with UK | 4:29:55 | 4:30:01 | |
travellers spending about £300 on
goods and services in preparation | 4:30:01 | 4:30:06 | |
for those foreign holidays before
they've even taken off. Such | 4:30:06 | 4:30:11 | |
outbound tourism is worth about £12
billion a year. Meanwhile, the | 4:30:11 | 4:30:18 | |
aviation industry is worth £52
billion to our national income and | 4:30:18 | 4:30:24 | |
it contributes £8 billion in tax
year. It supports about 960,000 | 4:30:24 | 4:30:31 | |
jobs, a third of a million in the
sector is self and perhaps another | 4:30:31 | 4:30:34 | |
third of a million indirectly.
Furthermore, the UK cargo airlines | 4:30:34 | 4:30:41 | |
handle millions of shipments every
month, predominantly high-value and | 4:30:41 | 4:30:47 | |
time sensitive parcels across the
globe. These services play a crucial | 4:30:47 | 4:30:52 | |
role in maintaining UK businesses'
global competitiveness and | 4:30:52 | 4:30:57 | |
connectivity with the EU and other
international partners. Any | 4:30:57 | 4:31:01 | |
disruption to the UK's connectivity
would harm the growth of UK | 4:31:01 | 4:31:05 | |
businesses globally. My Lords, given
that UK tourism is worth about 37 | 4:31:05 | 4:31:13 | |
billion euros a year to the EU 27,
and that the aviation transport | 4:31:13 | 4:31:20 | |
links are vital to the continued
success and growth of the UK economy | 4:31:20 | 4:31:23 | |
but also that of our UK
counterparts, we hope the government | 4:31:23 | 4:31:29 | |
will be able to negotiate our
continued participation in the | 4:31:29 | 4:31:33 | |
single aviation market. Indeed,
what's needed is us being very | 4:31:33 | 4:31:41 | |
modestly a part, although the
overnight squabbles between the | 4:31:41 | 4:31:47 | |
Chancellor and Number 10 at the
behest of Jacob Rees-Mogg gives | 4:31:47 | 4:31:53 | |
little confidence that this
government is up to the task of | 4:31:53 | 4:31:56 | |
negotiating the price of a
second-hand car let alone the future | 4:31:56 | 4:31:59 | |
of our economy. Today's papers are
full of the row, Iain Duncan Smith | 4:31:59 | 4:32:07 | |
saying he's pleased the Chancellor
is being contradicted by number ten. | 4:32:07 | 4:32:12 | |
Pleased that our Chancellor has been
contradicted by the Prime Minister. | 4:32:12 | 4:32:19 | |
Another Conservative MP said the
Chancellor was spot on and the Prime | 4:32:19 | 4:32:23 | |
Minister should be supporting him,
not giving in an umbra presents to | 4:32:23 | 4:32:28 | |
ideological driven minority. That
from a Conservative, not even from | 4:32:28 | 4:32:34 | |
this side. Seriously, the coverage,
attention and energy that goes into | 4:32:34 | 4:32:42 | |
this waste the chance to make a
clear statement to the EU and more | 4:32:42 | 4:32:46 | |
widely as to how Britain sees its
teacher after Brexit and what sort | 4:32:46 | 4:32:50 | |
of deal it once with the EU 27. The
noble lady the Minister will be well | 4:32:50 | 4:32:56 | |
aware of what the airlines UK need
after Brexit. Most urgently, a | 4:32:56 | 4:33:03 | |
transition phase based on current
rules and regulation, open access | 4:33:03 | 4:33:07 | |
and full participation of the
European aviation safety agency. The | 4:33:07 | 4:33:15 | |
EU 27 could exclude us from the
agency because that membership is | 4:33:15 | 4:33:20 | |
contingent upon accepting
jurisdiction of the ECJ. Without it, | 4:33:20 | 4:33:26 | |
there would be increased
certification costs for airlines, | 4:33:26 | 4:33:30 | |
manufacturers and maintenance
companies, while the CAA could have | 4:33:30 | 4:33:33 | |
to take responsibility for ensuring
all these adhered to safety rules, | 4:33:33 | 4:33:41 | |
raising questions about its capacity
as we've just heard. Given this | 4:33:41 | 4:33:47 | |
urgency, it's vital that aviation is
dealt with separately and in advance | 4:33:47 | 4:33:52 | |
of the main negotiations with the
EU, and priority is to safeguarding | 4:33:52 | 4:34:00 | |
bit EU, US and international market
access for our aviation industry. If | 4:34:00 | 4:34:05 | |
it means the government quietly
rubbing out a red line and accepting | 4:34:05 | 4:34:12 | |
some ECJ role in aviation, then so
be it. Isn't the economy rather more | 4:34:12 | 4:34:17 | |
important than red meat demanded of
the Conservative hard Eurosceptics? | 4:34:17 | 4:34:24 | |
My Lords, the aviation industry will
need many things that go well beyond | 4:34:24 | 4:34:28 | |
this Bill. Particularly being able
to employ staff from across Europe, | 4:34:28 | 4:34:33 | |
having no further restrictions on
borders as we've heard. We will | 4:34:33 | 4:34:36 | |
press these issues and on other
occasions and in other bills, but | 4:34:36 | 4:34:42 | |
there are important to the ministers
transport portfolio means I would | 4:34:42 | 4:34:47 | |
welcome some reassurance from her
that her department 's | 4:34:47 | 4:34:52 | |
representations to the Home Office
and other departments are making | 4:34:52 | 4:34:55 | |
clear the importance of such issues.
Aviation is unique within Brexit | 4:34:55 | 4:35:03 | |
negotiations. There's no WTO
fallback. There is an urgency | 4:35:03 | 4:35:08 | |
replicated in few other sectors.
It's an industry on which almost | 4:35:08 | 4:35:12 | |
every other sector depends. It is of
importance to tourism and it is of | 4:35:12 | 4:35:16 | |
mutual benefit to the UK and to the
EU 27. It's vital we reach a | 4:35:16 | 4:35:23 | |
comprehensive air transport
agreement with the EU which | 4:35:23 | 4:35:26 | |
maintains the current level of
market access and traffic rights. I | 4:35:26 | 4:35:30 | |
look forward to hearing the
Minister's reassurance on all these | 4:35:30 | 4:35:35 | |
points raised today. My Lords, I add
my thanks to the noble lady on | 4:35:35 | 4:35:45 | |
raising the important issue of our
future as services relationship with | 4:35:45 | 4:35:49 | |
the USA and I am most grateful to
all noble Lords who have | 4:35:49 | 4:35:52 | |
participated in this debate. I agree
that it's a pleasure to discuss | 4:35:52 | 4:35:58 | |
aviation, a sector that is a great
UK success story. We have a lot just | 4:35:58 | 4:36:03 | |
aviation network in Europe and the
third-largest globally. Our airlines | 4:36:03 | 4:36:06 | |
carry 144 million passengers and
over 1 million tonnes of cargo | 4:36:06 | 4:36:12 | |
annually and as the label lady says
contributes some £52 billion | 4:36:12 | 4:36:16 | |
annually to GDP. It supports almost
1 million jobs in our country, and | 4:36:16 | 4:36:24 | |
is a key facilitators for exports.
It's a reflection of our great | 4:36:24 | 4:36:32 | |
economy that we have such an
extensive global network of their | 4:36:32 | 4:36:36 | |
services and will determined these
will continue after Brexit. This | 4:36:36 | 4:36:39 | |
Bill highlights the desirability of
our continued relationship with the | 4:36:39 | 4:36:45 | |
US and yes, as services between the
UK and the US are of great | 4:36:45 | 4:36:49 | |
importance to our economy. Some 20
million passengers a year fly | 4:36:49 | 4:36:52 | |
between the two countries and that
is second only in the number of | 4:36:52 | 4:36:59 | |
passengers to Spain which is our
most popular overseas destination. | 4:36:59 | 4:37:03 | |
Regular services to and from the US
are available and more than 60 | 4:37:03 | 4:37:08 | |
different airport pairings and needs
schedules start on a regular basis. | 4:37:08 | 4:37:14 | |
The air services between the US and
UK support trade between the two | 4:37:14 | 4:37:19 | |
countries. This dynamic market is a
global example of benefits of | 4:37:19 | 4:37:26 | |
choice. We do want this to continue
after we left the EU. As the noble | 4:37:26 | 4:37:34 | |
lady has pointed out, the current
governing arrangements is the EU US | 4:37:34 | 4:37:40 | |
transport agreement often referred
to as the Open Skies Agreement. This | 4:37:40 | 4:37:47 | |
agreement lifted many restrictions
that featured in earlier bilateral | 4:37:47 | 4:37:50 | |
agreements and has removed all
restrictions on direct flights. It | 4:37:50 | 4:37:57 | |
allows for UK airlines to market
services on US partner airline | 4:37:57 | 4:38:00 | |
networks using their own flight
codes and it's a multilateral | 4:38:00 | 4:38:04 | |
agreement between the EU and its
member states on the one hand and | 4:38:04 | 4:38:07 | |
the United States on the other, with
Iceland and Norway having joined the | 4:38:07 | 4:38:13 | |
agreement in 2010. This liberal
market access and the competitive | 4:38:13 | 4:38:17 | |
environment benefit passengers in
terms of choice, connectivity and | 4:38:17 | 4:38:20 | |
value for money. Passengers can fly
directly to over 20 US airports from | 4:38:20 | 4:38:26 | |
a variety of points and can convert
two connector virtually any place in | 4:38:26 | 4:38:30 | |
the US. A study last year reported
savings of £200 per passenger | 4:38:30 | 4:38:36 | |
compared to get prices before the
agreement. Our aim is to preserve | 4:38:36 | 4:38:41 | |
this after we leave the EU, ensuring
the aviation industry and passengers | 4:38:41 | 4:38:45 | |
continue to benefit. My Lords, in
preparation to exit the EU we have | 4:38:45 | 4:38:50 | |
listened closely to the aviation
industry on both sides of the | 4:38:50 | 4:38:53 | |
Atlantic and they have been clear in
explaining the need for early | 4:38:53 | 4:38:59 | |
certainty. As has been pointed out,
airlines sell tickets up to one year | 4:38:59 | 4:39:03 | |
in advance and decisions on the
deployment of capital and other | 4:39:03 | 4:39:08 | |
decisions need to be taken well in
advance. We have two overarching | 4:39:08 | 4:39:13 | |
aims for the future are agreements.
The first is to transition the | 4:39:13 | 4:39:17 | |
liberal market access arrangements
currently available under the EU US | 4:39:17 | 4:39:21 | |
agreement. The second is to provide
the industry with the certainty | 4:39:21 | 4:39:26 | |
about this as soon as we possibly
can. Having set up the position I'll | 4:39:26 | 4:39:30 | |
turn to the terms of the noble
lady's Bill. The Bill requires | 4:39:30 | 4:39:35 | |
ministers to have regard to the
desirability of continuing to | 4:39:35 | 4:39:39 | |
participate in the air transport
agreement. As I have mentioned, | 4:39:39 | 4:39:44 | |
Iceland and Norway have both joined
Estates in their own right and I | 4:39:44 | 4:39:51 | |
believe that the aim is for the UK
to do this in the same way. We do | 4:39:51 | 4:39:59 | |
recognise the aviation industry
needs early reassurance about the | 4:39:59 | 4:40:02 | |
terms under which the UK and US air
services will operate. Do nothing is | 4:40:02 | 4:40:10 | |
not an option. When we leave the EU,
the EU US agreement will no longer | 4:40:10 | 4:40:14 | |
be operable for us and will need to
be amended to enable our continuing | 4:40:14 | 4:40:19 | |
participation. This would require
the unanimous agreement of all | 4:40:19 | 4:40:22 | |
parties to it, that is the European
Union, each of the 27 member states, | 4:40:22 | 4:40:27 | |
Iceland, Norway and the US. Such
unanimous agreement would of course | 4:40:27 | 4:40:32 | |
take time. The government believes
the quickest, simplest and clearest | 4:40:32 | 4:40:36 | |
way to provide the early certainty
needed by the aviation sector is by | 4:40:36 | 4:40:42 | |
concluding a new bilateral
arrangement with the US that will | 4:40:42 | 4:40:44 | |
apply as soon as the Open Skies
Agreement ceases to apply to the UK. | 4:40:44 | 4:40:52 | |
The Department for Transport
officials have already undertaken | 4:40:52 | 4:40:56 | |
three rounds of informal discussions
with their US counterparts on future | 4:40:56 | 4:41:00 | |
arrangements and a further round
will take place with the US in the | 4:41:00 | 4:41:03 | |
coming weeks. There is broad
consensus on the outcomes. Both | 4:41:03 | 4:41:09 | |
sides understand preservation of
current liberal market access | 4:41:09 | 4:41:12 | |
arrangement should be the starting
point and the industry needs to be | 4:41:12 | 4:41:16 | |
confident about what it can cannot
do in good time. These discussions | 4:41:16 | 4:41:19 | |
are going well and I hope this goes
some way to ensuring those concerned | 4:41:19 | 4:41:27 | |
about the relationship. I'd like to
highlight the government doesn't | 4:41:27 | 4:41:30 | |
rule out participating in the Air
Transport Agreement at some part in | 4:41:30 | 4:41:33 | |
the future. The UK could apply to
become a party to the agreement if | 4:41:33 | 4:41:37 | |
it offered the optimum solution for
the circumstances of the time. | 4:41:37 | 4:41:43 | |
However, the consent of all other
parties would be required and that | 4:41:43 | 4:41:46 | |
would take time. The government
believes the best option to provide | 4:41:46 | 4:41:49 | |
early certainty is for a new
bilateral agreement with the United | 4:41:49 | 4:41:54 | |
States. Turning to some questions
raised, the noble lady raised the | 4:41:54 | 4:42:00 | |
issue of third countries and where
market access is currently | 4:42:00 | 4:42:05 | |
determined by EU negotiated
arrangements we are working with | 4:42:05 | 4:42:08 | |
those countries, including Canada,
to ensure the new arrangements will | 4:42:08 | 4:42:12 | |
be in place well before we leave the
EU. I hope to provide further | 4:42:12 | 4:42:15 | |
updates on these soon. We already
have bilateral air services | 4:42:15 | 4:42:20 | |
agreements with 111 countries and
these will continue. | 4:42:20 | 4:42:27 | |
Lord state highlighted details of
the EU US deal. We don't propose to | 4:42:27 | 4:42:32 | |
open these in discussions with the
rest of the moment, for example | 4:42:32 | 4:42:36 | |
cabotage within the US will not be
up for discussion, our aim is to | 4:42:36 | 4:42:41 | |
replicate the arrangements as they
stand as soon as possible to provide | 4:42:41 | 4:42:44 | |
certainty to industry and I quite
agree with the noble Lord that we | 4:42:44 | 4:42:47 | |
cannot simply say it will be all
right on the night. I am thankful | 4:42:47 | 4:42:57 | |
for the partial clarity that the UK
will seek a bilateral relationship | 4:42:57 | 4:43:01 | |
with the United States and later the
European Union. May I ask the | 4:43:01 | 4:43:04 | |
Minister when she thinks that is
required to be ratified by the | 4:43:04 | 4:43:10 | |
parliament in order to offer
security for the industry that she | 4:43:10 | 4:43:13 | |
says is desperately needed? Can she
offer clarity with the United States | 4:43:13 | 4:43:17 | |
on the bilateral agreement the
Government now seeks to intend | 4:43:17 | 4:43:20 | |
whether part of that agreement will
be safety regulated by the European | 4:43:20 | 4:43:25 | |
Aviation Safety Agency? On EASA, I
will come to it but it will not be | 4:43:25 | 4:43:32 | |
included in the bilateral agreement
discussed with the US, that'll be a | 4:43:32 | 4:43:38 | |
separate conversation with the
European Union. On the timing for | 4:43:38 | 4:43:41 | |
ratification of that, I'm afraid I
will have to get back to the noble | 4:43:41 | 4:43:45 | |
board on that but the aim is this
will be in place well before we | 4:43:45 | 4:43:47 | |
leave the European Union to provide
certainty. The noble Lord Lord | 4:43:47 | 4:43:53 | |
paddock and the noble lady asked
about customer protection and the UK | 4:43:53 | 4:43:58 | |
has always been a leader when it
comes to providing protection for | 4:43:58 | 4:44:01 | |
holiday-makers and we want that to
continue to be the case whether | 4:44:01 | 4:44:04 | |
inside or outside of the European
Union. The consumer protections | 4:44:04 | 4:44:07 | |
based in the EU will be retained
through the European Union | 4:44:07 | 4:44:11 | |
withdrawal bill so that British
consumers can rely on the same | 4:44:11 | 4:44:14 | |
rights they have now after leaving
the EU so the absolute aim is to | 4:44:14 | 4:44:17 | |
provide consistency with what they
currently have. On EASA, which the | 4:44:17 | 4:44:27 | |
noble Lord raised, we are working
closely with industry on this and we | 4:44:27 | 4:44:30 | |
are aware of their views and what is
needed for the sector and again we | 4:44:30 | 4:44:35 | |
want a speedy agreement on this. We
represented those views clearly in | 4:44:35 | 4:44:40 | |
our conversation with the EU and
will keep the sector updated as | 4:44:40 | 4:44:44 | |
negotiations progress, and there is
precedent for non-EU states to be | 4:44:44 | 4:44:47 | |
part of EASA, Switzerland and Norway
for example, and we continue to | 4:44:47 | 4:44:51 | |
examine the possibility and
suitability of such an arrangement. | 4:44:51 | 4:44:59 | |
The Government has been clear the UK
will no longer be subject to CJ U | 4:44:59 | 4:45:09 | |
after it leaves... That is not quite
the case, EU citizens will have some | 4:45:09 | 4:45:14 | |
access to the ECJ for eight years.
Perhaps she could accept that it has | 4:45:14 | 4:45:23 | |
not been completely ruled out as
much as it had before? In the case | 4:45:23 | 4:45:29 | |
of EASA and the CJ U there is an
example when non-EU countries are | 4:45:29 | 4:45:36 | |
able to participate in EASA without
the direct jurisdiction of the ECG | 4:45:36 | 4:45:41 | |
and it is a cooperative arrangement
and that is what we are looking to | 4:45:41 | 4:45:46 | |
replicate -- of the ECJ. On the
paper mentioned by the noble lady | 4:45:46 | 4:45:50 | |
and others, I have seen the
presentation and it looks like an | 4:45:50 | 4:45:56 | |
opening position drafted with their
own interpretation of the UK | 4:45:56 | 4:45:59 | |
position and it is clearly designed
to be thought-provoking and ensure | 4:45:59 | 4:46:03 | |
member states focus on aviation
issues. The paper sets out a number | 4:46:03 | 4:46:07 | |
of options but also makes clear that
in the unlikely event of a new deal | 4:46:07 | 4:46:12 | |
there will be contingency measures
to ensure traffic rights and safety. | 4:46:12 | 4:46:15 | |
As many noble Lords have
acknowledged, we have no WTO | 4:46:15 | 4:46:21 | |
fallback in aviation so it is
encouraging aviation is one of only | 4:46:21 | 4:46:24 | |
two sector is being considered by
the commission in such close detail | 4:46:24 | 4:46:28 | |
and we are pleased aviation is
considered by the EU to be such a | 4:46:28 | 4:46:32 | |
priority as we feel it is and we
look forward to conversation is | 4:46:32 | 4:46:34 | |
progressing. I agree with many
points raised by noble Lords this | 4:46:34 | 4:46:40 | |
afternoon we all want to continue
with open access to our skies after | 4:46:40 | 4:46:47 | |
we leave the European Union and we
all agree why this is important. I | 4:46:47 | 4:46:52 | |
hope I have provided assurance, that
is what we are working towards, | 4:46:52 | 4:46:55 | |
though I would think that Lord
McNally would categorise it as | 4:46:55 | 4:47:00 | |
promises of things to come, and I
promise I will keep things updated | 4:47:00 | 4:47:07 | |
as negotiations progress and I am in
no way offended at the noble Lord | 4:47:07 | 4:47:11 | |
reading back my own words to me but
I am very interested to know what | 4:47:11 | 4:47:15 | |
his job was in my circuit! The noble
lady has helped highlight the | 4:47:15 | 4:47:19 | |
importance of the UK US air services
relationship and the vitality of the | 4:47:19 | 4:47:23 | |
current market. This relationship
and vitality is something we intend | 4:47:23 | 4:47:26 | |
to preserve and build on. However
the Government believes the bill is | 4:47:26 | 4:47:30 | |
not necessary. It requires us to do
something we are already doing, to | 4:47:30 | 4:47:35 | |
have regard to the desirability of
continuing to participate in the EU | 4:47:35 | 4:47:39 | |
US air transport agreement. We do
not believe we need another law on | 4:47:39 | 4:47:46 | |
the statute book in this respect. I
thank all noble thought to have | 4:47:46 | 4:47:51 | |
spoken in this debate. Lord McNally
evoked Peter Sellers. I certainly | 4:47:51 | 4:47:59 | |
cannot apply what I am about to say
to everyone who has spoken here | 4:47:59 | 4:48:03 | |
today but I remember Peter Sellers
and I remember that, along with | 4:48:03 | 4:48:08 | |
those days prior to the open skies
agreement, we had restricted | 4:48:08 | 4:48:21 | |
ownership and a very limited concept
of international travel. Difficult | 4:48:21 | 4:48:25 | |
to imagine nowadays if you didn't
live through them, and the noble | 4:48:25 | 4:48:29 | |
Lord Snape emphasised with his
quotation on the price of travel to | 4:48:29 | 4:48:37 | |
Tenerife exactly how prices have
benefited consumers in between. We | 4:48:37 | 4:48:43 | |
now take a simple cheap
straightforward system of | 4:48:43 | 4:48:48 | |
international flights for granted,
and it has transformed not just our | 4:48:48 | 4:48:53 | |
holidays but the way in which we
live. The noble Lord Paddock talked | 4:48:53 | 4:48:59 | |
about the Government's chaotic
approach, and I have to say every | 4:48:59 | 4:49:04 | |
time I feel myself being reassured
by soothing words from the | 4:49:04 | 4:49:09 | |
Government, up pops the Foreign
Secretary all one of his allies, one | 4:49:09 | 4:49:15 | |
of his friends, close acquaintances
of the Foreign Secretary, to remind | 4:49:15 | 4:49:21 | |
us that the Government does not
agree with itself where we are going | 4:49:21 | 4:49:26 | |
on this issue, let alone agree with
the EU or those of us in opposition | 4:49:26 | 4:49:32 | |
parties. So, despite good
intentions, aviation could easily be | 4:49:32 | 4:49:41 | |
the victim of a problem at the last
minute. My noble friend charted the | 4:49:41 | 4:49:47 | |
phenomenal growth of the aviation
market and pointed out that | 4:49:47 | 4:49:56 | |
membership is against the
Government's own red line, and I | 4:49:56 | 4:50:03 | |
would say that, with the outline
that the Minister has given us of | 4:50:03 | 4:50:07 | |
the Government's intentions on EASA,
we will go from, at the very best, a | 4:50:07 | 4:50:16 | |
leading role to a walk on part, and
that is regrettable. . The noble | 4:50:16 | 4:50:27 | |
Baroness emphasised the urgency of
the problem very effectively, and | 4:50:27 | 4:50:33 | |
there is of course a huge issue of
consumer rights and the issue of the | 4:50:33 | 4:50:41 | |
legislation from the EU on delays
which gives consumers right that | 4:50:41 | 4:50:45 | |
people take for granted now. The
noble lady the Minister answered | 4:50:45 | 4:50:53 | |
with some detail, which I will read
with great care, and she is always | 4:50:53 | 4:50:59 | |
very helpful within the scope of
what she is allowed to say in terms | 4:50:59 | 4:51:05 | |
of the Government's position on
these negotiations. But I would say | 4:51:05 | 4:51:10 | |
to the noble lady the Minister,
representatives of the industry | 4:51:10 | 4:51:15 | |
first talks to me about the issue of
urgency in late 2016. I raised it | 4:51:15 | 4:51:23 | |
first here at that time, and the
urgency has become very urgent, | 4:51:23 | 4:51:27 | |
Minister. And we do appreciate the
importance of continued agreements | 4:51:27 | 4:51:37 | |
and the Government's efforts to
devise ways around this, but the | 4:51:37 | 4:51:46 | |
Minister herself has emphasised how
long it would take all how difficult | 4:51:46 | 4:51:48 | |
it would be to get agreement across
27 countries and other partners, and | 4:51:48 | 4:51:56 | |
I would say that that says a lot
about the complexity of the | 4:51:56 | 4:52:03 | |
Government's situation and how
easily things could fall apart. And | 4:52:03 | 4:52:08 | |
I would just simply, very briefly,
commented that the commission's | 4:52:08 | 4:52:14 | |
paper is actually very technical, it
is not a rhetorical paper, it is a | 4:52:14 | 4:52:18 | |
technical paper. So these deals that
I have referred to in this piece of | 4:52:18 | 4:52:26 | |
legislation are particularly
beneficial, by the way, to areas | 4:52:26 | 4:52:30 | |
outside London. If we were forced to
fall back on the Bermuda agreements | 4:52:30 | 4:52:37 | |
1946 and 1977, which is another
world in aviation terms, we would | 4:52:37 | 4:52:43 | |
have two Acts set a restricted
number of airlines and flights into | 4:52:43 | 4:52:47 | |
London only. There are probably ways
around this issue but I still am not | 4:52:47 | 4:52:54 | |
convinced that the Government has
the key to finding the ways around | 4:52:54 | 4:53:00 | |
this issue, and the Government faces
so many pressing issues on this | 4:53:00 | 4:53:08 | |
whole Brexit process that there is a
real danger that one of the eggs | 4:53:08 | 4:53:13 | |
will be dropped, and I don't want it
to be aviation. It is a hugely | 4:53:13 | 4:53:20 | |
important industry for us, it is a
hugely important industry across | 4:53:20 | 4:53:28 | |
Britain, and we should aim to be
part of the European Common aviation | 4:53:28 | 4:53:35 | |
area, whatever happens, we need to
remain as close as possible to the | 4:53:35 | 4:53:42 | |
situation we are currently in. I
would say to noble Lords, whatever | 4:53:42 | 4:53:47 | |
caused people to vote for Brexit,
they certainly didn't vote for more | 4:53:47 | 4:53:50 | |
expensive flights or more
restrictive rules on travel, so it | 4:53:50 | 4:53:56 | |
is essential the Government takes
the lead and develops a sense of | 4:53:56 | 4:54:01 | |
true urgency. I ask the house to
give this bill a second reading. The | 4:54:01 | 4:54:07 | |
question is the bill be read a
second time. As many of that opinion | 4:54:07 | 4:54:11 | |
say content. Contrary not content.
The contents have it. I beg to move | 4:54:11 | 4:54:17 | |
that this bill be committed to a
committee of the whole house. The | 4:54:17 | 4:54:21 | |
question is that this bill be
committed to a committee of the | 4:54:21 | 4:54:24 | |
whole house. As many of that opinion
say content. The contrary not | 4:54:24 | 4:54:30 | |
content. The contents have it.
My Lords, I beg to move the house do | 4:54:30 | 4:54:37 | |
now adjourned. That's the house do
now adjourned. | 4:54:37 | 4:54:49 |