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once a year for the State Opening of
Parliament they still are! | 0:00:00 | 0:00:06 | |
My lord, I beg leave to ask a
question of which I have given | 0:00:29 | 0:00:33 | |
private notice. It is as follows, to
ask her Majesty's government to ask | 0:00:33 | 0:00:38 | |
what steps they are taking to defend
civil servants from criticism | 0:00:38 | 0:00:44 | |
regarding their objectivity and
impartiality? My Lords, the | 0:00:44 | 0:00:50 | |
ministerial code says that, I quote,
ministers must uphold the political | 0:00:50 | 0:00:56 | |
impartiality of the civil service.
Our Civil Service is envied the | 0:00:56 | 0:01:00 | |
world over and as the Home Secretary
said, has the complete confidence of | 0:01:00 | 0:01:04 | |
the government. The Constitutional
reform and governance act enshrined | 0:01:04 | 0:01:09 | |
in legislation, the core principles
and values of the civil service | 0:01:09 | 0:01:15 | |
which included impartiality,
integrity and objectivity. These | 0:01:15 | 0:01:19 | |
values are set out in the civil
service code which also states civil | 0:01:19 | 0:01:24 | |
servants must not knowingly mislead
ministers, Parliament or others and | 0:01:24 | 0:01:28 | |
I do not believe they do. My Lords,
I am grateful to the noble lord for | 0:01:28 | 0:01:33 | |
that answer and he more than anyone
has upheld the ministerial code | 0:01:33 | 0:01:38 | |
during a very long and distinguished
ministerial career. But, my Lords, | 0:01:38 | 0:01:44 | |
in the last few days we have had
assertions made by both ministers | 0:01:44 | 0:01:48 | |
and members of Parliament that
officials are deliberately | 0:01:48 | 0:01:52 | |
frustrating Brexit or fiddling the
figures. Those civil servants cannot | 0:01:52 | 0:01:57 | |
defend themselves in public. Does
the noble lord agree that officials | 0:01:57 | 0:02:04 | |
must have confidence in being able
to provide robust and dispassionate | 0:02:04 | 0:02:10 | |
advice without fear of intimidation?
My Lords, given that the Downing | 0:02:10 | 0:02:15 | |
Street and Number ten and the Prime
Minister have failed to slap down | 0:02:15 | 0:02:20 | |
those ministers and those MPs in
their own party who have made these | 0:02:20 | 0:02:24 | |
disgraceful slurs, is it too much to
ask for the Prime Minister finally | 0:02:24 | 0:02:29 | |
to show some leadership? So far as
the ministers are concerned, and I | 0:02:29 | 0:02:38 | |
answer for ministers, not for
backbench members of Parliament, the | 0:02:38 | 0:02:41 | |
minister concerned made a fulsome
apology in another place on February | 0:02:41 | 0:02:46 | |
the 2nd. He said, I accept that I
should have corrected or dismissed | 0:02:46 | 0:02:50 | |
the premises and I have apologised
to Mr Charles Grant, an honest and | 0:02:50 | 0:02:57 | |
trustworthy man, and as I have put
on record I have the highest regard | 0:02:57 | 0:03:02 | |
for our hard-working civil servants
and I am grateful for this | 0:03:02 | 0:03:05 | |
opportunity to correct the record
and apologise to the House. The | 0:03:05 | 0:03:09 | |
noble lord generously referred to my
experience and I think I have done | 0:03:09 | 0:03:14 | |
on aunt of work over more than 20
years with many discontinuities. I | 0:03:14 | 0:03:23 | |
have never had occasion to question
the impartiality or the objectivity | 0:03:23 | 0:03:27 | |
of civil servants. They have spoken
and said things quite often that I | 0:03:27 | 0:03:33 | |
did not want to hear, but I would
never accuse them of some of the | 0:03:33 | 0:03:38 | |
accusations that have recently been
levied against them. I think we | 0:03:38 | 0:03:41 | |
should be proud of our Civil Service
and I reject the smears made against | 0:03:41 | 0:03:49 | |
them. My Lords will recognise this
is not just a British issue. The | 0:03:49 | 0:03:56 | |
current attack on the FBI in the
United States raises rather similar | 0:03:56 | 0:03:59 | |
issues. Can the Minister assure us
publicly that when we say civil | 0:03:59 | 0:04:06 | |
servants are expected to be
impartial they are not expected to | 0:04:06 | 0:04:10 | |
be impartial between evidence and
supposition? When ministers prefer | 0:04:10 | 0:04:19 | |
faith or fantasy to evidence, civil
servants have the right to point out | 0:04:19 | 0:04:23 | |
that good governors does depend on
pay attention to the evidence | 0:04:23 | 0:04:28 | |
whenever one can find it? The noble
lord is absolutely right and I wait | 0:04:28 | 0:04:34 | |
a moment ago the civil service code.
Part of that is objectivity. | 0:04:34 | 0:04:39 | |
Objectivity is basing your advice
and decisions on rigorous analysis | 0:04:39 | 0:04:45 | |
of the evidence. I think it is the
standard to which our Civil Service | 0:04:45 | 0:04:48 | |
is renowned. Could I ask my noble
friend's honest opinion? He will be | 0:04:48 | 0:04:55 | |
familiar with this document, the
Treasury analysis of May 2016 | 0:04:55 | 0:05:01 | |
forecasting a complete car mats
collapse of the British economy if | 0:05:01 | 0:05:07 | |
we were to leave the EU. It turns
out to be untrue in reality. My | 0:05:07 | 0:05:15 | |
noble friend has praised the
objectivity of friends who produce | 0:05:15 | 0:05:19 | |
government statistics. If I
continued to criticise the mandarins | 0:05:19 | 0:05:22 | |
and the ministers who approved the
statistics in this document does | 0:05:22 | 0:05:25 | |
that make me a snake oil salesman or
a 1930s Nazi or a bit of both? My | 0:05:25 | 0:05:35 | |
noble friend should distinguish
between criticisms of ministers and | 0:05:35 | 0:05:38 | |
criticisms of civil servants. The
document that he has in his hand was | 0:05:38 | 0:05:44 | |
publicly presented by the Chancellor
of the Exchequer at the time and any | 0:05:44 | 0:05:48 | |
criticism should be directly
directed at the politicians who | 0:05:48 | 0:05:54 | |
presented it. I think it was also
endorsed by the Lords dialling at | 0:05:54 | 0:05:59 | |
the time. They are the ones who
should be criticise rather than the | 0:05:59 | 0:06:02 | |
civil servants. The minister said
that the Minister has already | 0:06:02 | 0:06:08 | |
apologised. Does that mean now a
civil servant can break the code and | 0:06:08 | 0:06:15 | |
not face any sanction if he by
advisers later? That would be a | 0:06:15 | 0:06:20 | |
matter for the civil service code.
There are penalties levied against | 0:06:20 | 0:06:25 | |
civil servants who break the code,
depending on the severity of the | 0:06:25 | 0:06:30 | |
offence. They could lose their job,
as has happened in some cases. Or | 0:06:30 | 0:06:35 | |
they can apologise. In this case the
Minister has apologised, he has | 0:06:35 | 0:06:39 | |
explained the circumstances and he
had no reason to believe that what | 0:06:39 | 0:06:43 | |
was being said at the time was not
true. When he discovered it was not | 0:06:43 | 0:06:48 | |
true at the first opportunity he
came to the House and apologise. I | 0:06:48 | 0:06:53 | |
Lords, I had the pleasure of working
with the Minister in his many guises | 0:06:53 | 0:06:57 | |
and if ever there was a minister who
lived by the code he just talked | 0:06:57 | 0:07:02 | |
about it is himself. Does the
Minister believed that those making | 0:07:02 | 0:07:06 | |
allegations without supporting
evidence against serving civil | 0:07:06 | 0:07:11 | |
servants who will not respond are
undertaking a form of bullying? That | 0:07:11 | 0:07:22 | |
to be honest is something which
diminishes those making the attack, | 0:07:22 | 0:07:26 | |
but more importantly damages our
democracy. Well... Whether the | 0:07:26 | 0:07:37 | |
accusations made in the House of
Commons last week constitute | 0:07:37 | 0:07:40 | |
bullying I am not quite so sure. I
think they were ill-advised given | 0:07:40 | 0:07:44 | |
that the evidence did not stack up
the accusations that were made. But | 0:07:44 | 0:07:51 | |
I agree with what the noble lord
said in his final remarks, that the | 0:07:51 | 0:07:56 | |
people who come out of it worse are
those who make the accusations | 0:07:56 | 0:08:00 | |
rather than those that they were
levied against. | 0:08:00 | 0:08:11 | |
Ministers who impugn the
impartiality and good faith of our | 0:08:11 | 0:08:15 | |
civil servants are behaving very
much as President Trump does in the | 0:08:15 | 0:08:18 | |
United States with regards to the
FBI. I am not sure I want to open up | 0:08:18 | 0:08:23 | |
a fresh front! But President Trump I
hope will read... | 0:08:23 | 0:08:34 | |
LAUGHTER
What my Lord has just said. | 0:08:34 | 0:08:41 | |
Is it not the case that every
sensible person before starting a | 0:08:41 | 0:08:47 | |
business will always produce a
business plan and the responsible | 0:08:47 | 0:08:51 | |
and sensible governments must engage
in cost benefit analysis and policy | 0:08:51 | 0:08:55 | |
analysis and if we gave up those
habits it would be deeply damaging | 0:08:55 | 0:08:59 | |
to the preacher of the country. That
is the logic some of these people | 0:08:59 | 0:09:03 | |
are trying to drive us to. We should
not have any experts, studies or | 0:09:03 | 0:09:08 | |
analysis at all. I have not seen the
particular documents that are the | 0:09:08 | 0:09:14 | |
object of this exchange, but I
understand they were looking at a | 0:09:14 | 0:09:18 | |
number of post-Brexit scenarios from
an economic point of view, but I | 0:09:18 | 0:09:22 | |
also understand that the Prime
Minister subsequently said they were | 0:09:22 | 0:09:26 | |
looking at off the shelf options and
the Prime Minister has made it clear | 0:09:26 | 0:09:29 | |
that she is not looking at
off-the-shelf options. Is my friend | 0:09:29 | 0:09:34 | |
the Minister aware that every
political generation experiences are | 0:09:34 | 0:09:43 | |
pleas of this question. Hugh Dalton
was given unpalatable advice, but | 0:09:43 | 0:09:51 | |
surely that is what we pay them for.
It would be pointless to have a | 0:09:51 | 0:10:01 | |
politicised civil service which
would be ruinous to this country. I | 0:10:01 | 0:10:05 | |
agree, it is the job of civil
servants to bring to ministers | 0:10:05 | 0:10:09 | |
General Hux attention the
consequences of their policies, to | 0:10:09 | 0:10:12 | |
argue forcibly against them if they
believe they are misguided. Once the | 0:10:12 | 0:10:17 | |
decision has been taken they have to
deliver them as best as they can. My | 0:10:17 | 0:10:22 | |
experience is that is exactly what
they have done. Would my noble | 0:10:22 | 0:10:27 | |
friend agree that the remarks made
in the debate ten days ago in this | 0:10:27 | 0:10:37 | |
house, disparaging remarks were made
by a member of the opposite front | 0:10:37 | 0:10:43 | |
bench impugning the integrity of the
civil servants in our library | 0:10:43 | 0:10:47 | |
because she did not agree with the
brief that they produced. I went | 0:10:47 | 0:10:53 | |
straight to the library and
apologise on behalf of of the House | 0:10:53 | 0:10:56 | |
because I said no one else would
agree with that. I hope my noble | 0:10:56 | 0:11:00 | |
friend will understand if I pass on
that one, not having been privy | 0:11:00 | 0:11:06 | |
either to the accusations that were
made or indeed the evidence. But I | 0:11:06 | 0:11:11 | |
am sure my noble friend did what he
felt was right in defending the | 0:11:11 | 0:11:14 | |
library. | 0:11:14 | 0:11:19 |