30/01/2017 Monday in Parliament


30/01/2017

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Hello, and welcome to Monday In Parliament -

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The Foreign Secretary says all British passport holders will be

:00:24.:00:28.

able to travel to the United States, despite

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This executive order will make no difference to any

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British passport holder, irrespective of their country of

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birth or whether they hold another passport.

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But despite Boris Johnson describing the policy as "wrong",

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opposition MPs say he's not going far enough

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This order was signed on Holocaust Memorial Day.

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For the sake of history, for heaven's sake, have

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Also tonight - concerns the closure of Jobcentre Plus buildings may not

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Can my honourable friend assure me that those who have put forward

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the proposals have indeed visited places such as the Calder Valley

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to understand the demographics and geography, or have they just sat

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in their offices in Whitehall using Google Maps?

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The Foreign Secretary has told the Commons that President Trump's

:01:22.:01:23.

travel ban on refugees from Syria and citizens from seven mainly

:01:24.:01:27.

Muslim countries will make "no difference" to anyone

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Boris Johnson said the policy was divisive and wrong.

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But Labour have accused the Government of being slow to react.

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The general principle is that all British passport holders remain

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We have received assurances from the US Embassy that this

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executive order will make no difference to any British passport

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holder, irrespective of their country of birth

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or whether they hold another passport.

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This order was issued at 9.45 on Friday, UK time.

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It then took Number 10 until midnight on Saturday,

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a full 27 hours later, to say that they would consider

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It then took the Prime Minister until Sunday morning to tell

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the Foreign Secretary to telephone the White House and took him

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until midday on Sunday to call the travel ban divisive and wrong.

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That is 38 hours, Mr Speaker, to have the courage to say

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what everyone else was saying on Friday night.

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We have an exemption for UK passport holders, whether you're

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And I think most fair-minded people would say that that actually showed

:02:50.:02:59.

the advantages of working closely with the Trump Administration.

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The advantage of having a relationship that enables us

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Without a thought to the context, on Holocaust Memorial Day,

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President Trump issued an executive order to ban seven predominantly

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Muslim countries from entering the USA,

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Including, and I quote, those "bad dudes" who are actually

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the real victims of violence who are fleeing

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This action is inhumane, it's racist, and it's immoral.

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And I welcome the fact, Mr Speaker, that this House is now treating

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the threats posed by President Trump with the seriousness

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I have already made my views about this.

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It is up to members of the House of Commons if they wish

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The denunciation of this policy - I've made my position clear.

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I said it was wrong to promulgate policies that stigmatise people

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on the basis of their nationality, and I believe that very profoundly.

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Mr Trump is what we might call a known unknown.

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We know that he will do and say unpredictable things,

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and often just as quickly abandon those positions.

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And what we have to remember is that our security and that

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of Europe depends on the Atlantic Alliance.

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This is not just about the impact on British citizens.

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One of our closest allies has chosen to ban refugees and target Muslims.

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And all he can say is that, well, it wouldn't be our polity.

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Has he urged the US Administration to lift this order, to help

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refugees, and to stop targeting Muslims?

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This order was signed on Holocaust Memorial Day.

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For the sake of history, for heaven's sake,

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As they say, it is open to MPs on all sides of the House to come

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forward with yet fresh expressions of outrage about the

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And they are entitled to it.

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I share the widespread disquiet, and I have

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I've said that it is divisive, and said it is wrong,

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and I've said that it stigmatises people on grounds of nationality.

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What I will not do, which is what I think

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is disengage from conversations with our American friends

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and partners in such a way as to do material damage to the interests

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Given our new-found closeness with the Trump Administration,

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what plans does my right honourable friend have to try and persuade

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the Administration after the 90 days to abandon what, to many,

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And would my right honourable friend agree,

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in paraphrasing a far wiser president, John F.

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Kennedy, that those that ride on the back

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The condemnation of Donald Trump's actions continued into the evening

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after the Speaker granted an emergency debate.

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It was requested by the former Labour leader Ed Miliband,

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who said the travel ban brought to mind the actions of

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Also sponsoring the debate was the Conservative Nadhim Zahawi,

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who was born in Iraq and who was personally affected

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The only way of understanding this ban when you look at it, Mr Speaker,

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is that it does represent the suspension of reason

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Indeed, it has perversity, discrimination and

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I'm always grateful to my right honourable friend, but one

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of the key aspects is the dramatic affect it has on those who had

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boarded aircraft ready to go to the United States with valid

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visas, only to arrive and being told that they have to go back.

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It is that physical, that emotional effect

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that is the most damning part of what is being proposed.

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My right honourable friend speaks with great eloquence on this issue,

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One of the most chilling things I've found, and I'm sure other

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members did as well, reading the account at the weekend

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of what had happened to individuals, which frankly sounded

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like the actions of tinpot the leadership.

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It did not sound like what we would expect or hope

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The US has always been our oldest and closest ally.

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Some people will say this is not a matter for us, as long

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I profoundly disagree. It absolutely is a matter for us.

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Because the fundamental and dangerous betrayal of values

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this measure represents is indeed an affront to all of us.

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It is an affront to the Muslims living in this country,

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And, as I have said, it will make the world

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Mr Speaker, if we allow this to stand and we shrug our shoulders,

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it will amount to complicity with President Trump.

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These actions are not normal, rational or sensible.

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We know, Mr Speaker, President Trump is a bully.

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The only course of action in relation to his bullying

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Nadhim Zahawi was born in Iraq and is now a British citizen.

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He described how uncomfortable the weekend had been

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I learnt my ability to travel to the United States

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A country that I revere so much for its values,

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with which I have such great affinity and affection

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and to which I have sent both my sons to university.

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I learnt, Mr Speaker, that this great nation had

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put in place measures that would prevent mine

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and my family's ability to travel, study and feel welcome there.

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I was concerned about the next time I would see my boys.

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Due to our reluctance to let them fly home in the eventuality

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that they be prevented from returning to university.

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My wife and I despaired at the thought that had one

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seriously ill again, as he was last year

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whilst at university, we would not be able to go to him

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He called the executive order wholly counter-productive.

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Over the weekend, pro-Islamic State social media accounts have already

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begun hailing the order and the President's comments

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as clear evidence that the USA is seeking to destroy Islam.

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They have even called it the Blessed Ban.

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Yvette Cooper said she was deeply worried about a

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By rushing in to this state visit, I fear that actually the Government

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is going to do the opposite of what they want.

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Instead of this being a celebration of friendship and shared values,

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and a sign of increased cooperation, instead it will show the huge

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divisions and a huge concern concern we have about what

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And it will look like an endorsement of a ban that is so morally

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wrong, and that we should be standing against.

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Another MP said the UK should be a candid friend.

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Very little at all will be achieved by cancelling a state visit

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when the invitation has already been extended and

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It is part of a process of seeking to engage,

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Money needs to be spent on work coaches and not buildings,

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the government has insisted, asked about the closure

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Many MPs said their constituents were not ready for a system

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which relied heavily on internet access and the ability to use a PC.

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But the minister said that vulnerable claimants would be served

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- either by post or, in some cases, home visits.

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Eight out of ten claims for Jobseeker's Allowance are now

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made online and 99.6% of applicants for Universal Credit full service

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This has resulted in the DWP buildings being used much less.

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20% of the DWP estate is currently underutilised.

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As we renegotiate our out of date contract, we are merging some

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smaller Job Centres with larger ones and co-locating others with local

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This will help DWP offer a better service for people looking for work,

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whilst delivering a better deal for the taxpayer, saving

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about ?180 million a year for the next ten years.

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The UK Government's proposal to drastically cut the number

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of Job Centres and DWP offices across Scotland and in the UK,

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including my constituency of Inverclyde, will have a profound

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impact on thousands of people desperately seeking

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work and the support to which they are entitled.

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There has been a distinct lack of consultation

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with the communities affected and, with the government in Scotland,

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That lack of consultation is against the principles

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outlined the principles for Scottish devolution,

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following the independence referendum.

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We are particularly concerned about the impact on women, children

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Will the government publish an assessment of the impact of these

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The government is continuing to roll out Universal Credit

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and, for the first time, people who are actually in work will have

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Will the government delay its plans to reduce its estate until it has

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a clear idea of what the demands on Job Centres and staff will be

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One of the things that really impressed me during my spell at DWP

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was the quality of the work coaches and their capacity for supporting

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real positive change in people's lives, so,

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if there is an opportunity to spend less on near-empty bricks

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and mortars and actually to invest more in a greater number of work

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coaches, isn't that exactly the right thing to do?

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SOME: Hear, hear! SPEAKER: Minister!

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I thank my Honourable Friend for that question.

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Our work coaches are at the front line delivering services

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to claimants, helping them, not just into work,

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but when they are in work, helping them into more work

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That's why we are recruiting will work coaches and looking

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That's why we are recruiting more work coaches and looking

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to make sure that our DWP estate best reflects value for money,

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both for our taxpayers and, of course, providing the support

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In 2010, I had three Job Centres in my constituency.

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Old Swan was closed by her department at the start of 2010

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and now she wants to close the other two in Edge Hill and Wavertree.

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My constituency has the 39th highest level

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Why does she want to make it harder for the 2950 people who wanted

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to access support and who will have to pay ?8.80 every single

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SOME: Hear, hear! SPEAKER: minister!

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I thank the honourable lady for that question.

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It is of course important to reflect that what we are trying to do

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is make it easier for those claimants who interact

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with the DWP online to do so, to look at instances where we can

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get involved in outreach projects, as has happened in various

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points around the country, and make sure that,

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where there are special circumstances where people

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are vulnerable, that they can be given assistance

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Brighouse is the largest township within the Calder Valley,

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so to relocate our Job Centre uphill and down dale out of

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the constituency will be a disaster to the long-term unemployed who rely

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Can my Honourable Friend assure me that those who have put forward

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the proposals have indeed visited places such as the Calder Valley

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to understand the demographics and geography, or have they just sat

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in their offices in Whitehall using Google Maps?

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SOME: Hear, hear! SPEAKER: Minister!

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I thank my Honourable Friend for that question.

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This is not an exercise using Google maps.

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This is an exercise which we having gauged in over very many months

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to make the best use of our DWP estate.

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It's critically important, when we are not using the space

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that we have, but are paying for it, that we think very hard

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about how we can best provide services to our claimants.

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The Work and Pensions Minister, Caroline Nokes.

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You're watching Monday in Parliament.

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The Foreign Secretary says the United States has given

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assurances that holders of a British passport will be unaffected

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by travel bans imposed by President Trump.

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But opposition MPs have accused the government

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Ministers have rejected the suggestion that the adult social

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But appearing before the Communities Committee,

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a health minister and a local government minister accepted

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that the system was "stressed" and said more money

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But they also accepted that pressures on the care system

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would continue to grow and one hinted that children

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may have to take more responsibility for looking

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Is social care in crisis in this country at present?

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The social care system is under stress, and that is the word that

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I'd rather use than the word you that chose.

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The second point I would make is I don't think it's accurate

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to say there is one social care system in this country.

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There is a mass disparity in different locations

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between different local and different authorities

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and actually different health authorities as well.

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STUDIO: Another minister highlighted the extra money

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being provided for social care - ?3.5 billion.

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That comprises of ?2 billion from the Adult Social Care precept

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and the additional flexibilities that we've given councils

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in ?1.5 billion from the improved Better Care Fund and,

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together with that, we've also since identified an additional

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?240 million this year as a social care precept, a social care grant,

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to local authorities and we've also indeed given further flexibility

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around the precept which could enable councils to realise

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-- an additional ?900 million in the next two years.

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STUDIO: But it wasn't, he said, just about money.

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We are requiring all areas to bring health and social care together

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by the end of this decade to make sure that we are providing the most

:17:58.:18:00.

To what extent do you feel the pressure is on the NHS

:18:01.:18:04.

are directly attributable to the problems and social care?

:18:05.:18:07.

What Simon Stevens was talking about was delayed transfers of care,

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which has increased in the last 18 months.

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In fact, interestingly, it is stabilised in the last couple

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of months, but it certainly increased in the 18

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STUDIO: An MP turned to a warning from the head of the NHS

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There is an extraordinary disparity in delayed transfers of care

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And I, um... I was looking at some figures today.

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The four worst local authorities versus the four best.

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The disparity is a factor of 40, 4-0, in terms of the impact of that.

:18:43.:18:46.

Nevertheless, they have gone up on the system as a whole.

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And there is an impact on that in terms of NHS beds.

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The thing that we really do need to get a better understanding

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of is why that factor of 40 exists, because that's out of all comparison

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in terms of budget pressures and those types of things.

:18:58.:19:02.

We're expecting to see a rise of nearly 50% by 2035

:19:03.:19:06.

in the numbers of 65, people who are aged over 65,

:19:07.:19:11.

and I wonder how you plan to fund social care to keep pace

:19:12.:19:14.

If your point is that this is going to become a bigger

:19:15.:19:21.

and a higher proportion of our country's GDP over time,

:19:22.:19:23.

I personally think there's a lot of interwoven issues here.

:19:24.:19:34.

One of them is for us to start thinking, as a society,

:19:35.:19:37.

how we deal with care of our own parents,

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and one of the things that's always struck me,

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as I've been doing this role, is that nobody ever questions

:19:44.:19:45.

the fact that parents, that we look after our children -

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that is obvious and nobody ever says that's a caring responsibility,

:19:49.:19:56.

Um, I think some of that logic, and some of the way that we think

:19:57.:20:01.

about that, in terms of the sort of volume of numbers

:20:02.:20:03.

that we're seeing coming down the track, will have to,

:20:04.:20:06.

you know, impinge on the way that we start thinking about how

:20:07.:20:09.

we look after our parents, because, in a way,

:20:10.:20:11.

it's a responsibility, in terms of our life cycle,

:20:12.:20:13.

Now, President Trump's views on Nato were described

:20:14.:20:19.

at Question Time as a "wake-up call" for the organisation.

:20:20.:20:21.

On the election trail, Donald Trump called the alliance "obsolete"

:20:22.:20:24.

and said many of its members were not spending enough on defence.

:20:25.:20:27.

One Conservative told the Defence Secretary

:20:28.:20:29.

that was a message that needed to be heard.

:20:30.:20:34.

The Prime Minister securing 100% support for Nato and also

:20:35.:20:37.

the auditor general's support for Nato is, of course,

:20:38.:20:39.

But would my Right Honourable Friend not agree with me that some

:20:40.:20:46.

of the less than helpful remarks the president might have made

:20:47.:20:49.

about Nato in the recent weeks and months is actually quite

:20:50.:20:51.

We need to modernise some aspects of the administration of Nato

:20:52.:20:55.

and we need to see to our Nato partners they've got

:20:56.:20:58.

to step up to the mark and pay their 2%, like we do?

:20:59.:21:01.

The new president has called for members of Nato to fulfil

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the commitments that we agreed and we and the United States agreed

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back at the Wales Summit in 2014, and a number of other Nato account

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members still have a long way to go to meet the 2% target.

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We also agree with the new president that we need to continue

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to modernise Nato to make it effective as a response

:21:21.:21:22.

Now that the United States of America has clearly become a less

:21:23.:21:32.

stable and reliable Nato partner, how pragmatic is

:21:33.:21:34.

And what consideration has the Secretary of State given

:21:35.:21:42.

to allocating more time for European defence is European defence simply

:21:43.:21:54.

-- to allocating more time for European defence

:21:55.:21:56.

or is European defence simply not fashionable any more?

:21:57.:21:58.

Well, so far as our partnership with the United States is concerned,

:21:59.:22:01.

it is the broadest, deepest and advanced most defence

:22:02.:22:03.

partnership in the world, and my aim is to continue

:22:04.:22:05.

to strengthen it with the new administration,

:22:06.:22:07.

particularly in the shared programmes we have and the joint

:22:08.:22:09.

strike fighter aircraft and in the reinstatement

:22:10.:22:12.

of our maritime patrol aircraft capability.

:22:13.:22:16.

So far as European defence is concerned, and the President's

:22:17.:22:22.

remarks during the campaign and subsequently, are I believe

:22:23.:22:25.

the wake-up call to all of us in Europe to make sure that,

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when we make these commitments, that we honour them.

:22:29.:22:31.

But if the new US President follows through with his stated intention

:22:32.:22:35.

to reinstate rendition and torture, then Nato allies would be

:22:36.:22:37.

legally obliged not to work them on intelligence.

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So will the government ensure that the alliance rules out

:22:45.:22:46.

the use of torture in all respects for the good of Nato effectiveness?

:22:47.:22:49.

Well, I understand the point the Honourable Gentleman is making.

:22:50.:22:52.

We do not condone the use of torture and there are obviously implications

:22:53.:22:56.

Several questioners were asked about the travel ban, but were referred to

:22:57.:23:11.

the Foreign Secretary's statement from later in the day.

:23:12.:23:14.

Over in the House of Lords, a Liberal Democrat peer

:23:15.:23:16.

was attempting to convince his fellow peers of the need

:23:17.:23:18.

to install life-saving defibrillators in schools.

:23:19.:23:20.

A campaign was started following the death in 2011

:23:21.:23:22.

of Oliver King, a 12-year-old boy who died from a heart

:23:23.:23:25.

The Minister will be aware that today 82 people will get

:23:26.:23:29.

a sudden cardiac arrest and, of those 82,

:23:30.:23:31.

You will also be aware of the work of the Oliver King Foundation.

:23:32.:23:43.

The foundation was set up after the death, very tragically,

:23:44.:23:48.

of a 12-year-old boy, who died in a swimming pool

:23:49.:23:50.

in Liverpool, and they've campaigned ceaselessly for this to happen.

:23:51.:23:53.

STUDIO: But an independent crossbench peer, Lady Finlay,

:23:54.:23:55.

said simply buying a defibrillator wasn't enough.

:23:56.:23:56.

It's essential to have emergency action first aid training in both

:23:57.:23:59.

primary schools and secondary schools, so that children

:24:00.:24:02.

can recognise cardiac arrest in another child,

:24:03.:24:08.

can respond appropriately, called for help appropriately, and also

:24:09.:24:10.

Simply purchasing a defibrillatoris inadequate.

:24:11.:24:16.

Simply purchasing a defibrillator is inadequate.

:24:17.:24:19.

As I say, we leave it to schools to deal with the precise details

:24:20.:24:23.

of this, but of course, they will make it absolutely clear

:24:24.:24:27.

where the defibrillator is and, as I've already referred to,

:24:28.:24:29.

These machines are now so sophisticated that,

:24:30.:24:35.

if any operator is about to use them inappropriately,

:24:36.:24:38.

the machine has been programmed to tell the operator to push off!

:24:39.:24:42.

Well, I don't know if it quite puts it in those terms,

:24:43.:24:56.

My Lord, but I am aware that they are apparently

:24:57.:24:58.

very, very easy to use, and the instructions are very clear.

:24:59.:25:01.

270 children die every year after suffering a sudden cardiac

:25:02.:25:03.

arrest at school and 12 young people die a week from Sudden

:25:04.:25:06.

There are laws that mandate smoke alarms, fire extinguishers,

:25:07.:25:12.

seat belts and life jackets to save lives, but there is no law

:25:13.:25:15.

mandating a simple piece of equipment that could restart

:25:16.:25:17.

the lives of 12 young people each week.

:25:18.:25:21.

So can the Noble Lord, the Minister, say whether the government

:25:22.:25:26.

intends to give a fair wind to Maria Caulfield MP's

:25:27.:25:28.

Defibrillators Availability Bill, which will have its second reading

:25:29.:25:30.

in another place next month, so as to bring to an end

:25:31.:25:33.

the shameful situation that means access to defibrillators

:25:34.:25:35.

Alicia McCarthy's here for the rest of the week.

:25:36.:25:46.

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