In or Out? Newsbeat Debates

questions and we will get to them at the end. Here is our host and chair

for the evening. You don't normally get Newsbeat at

9pm on Radio 1 or on Extra, tonight we're on for an hour, live in

Birmingham w, quite a few of you. APPLAUSE

Watch us as well, we're on the BBC News channel. Why? Because there's

just nine days until one of the biggest votes of our life time. The

question is: In or out? Should the United Kingdom stay part of the

European Union or should it leave? Plenty of you say you're confused.

Whatever you want to know, we'll do our best to get the answers to your

questions. Loads of you say you want more facts. Alex is here with loads

of stuff that we know for sure. We've had big claims thrown around

by both sides in the campaign about whether staying or leaving would

affect your jobs, wages, even your mobile phone bill. We will sift

through those and separate the fact from the fiction. Great stuff. Nick

is over there with your texts and tweets. I am Billy no mates at the

bar. I'm relying on you at home to get in touch so I have somebody to

talk to. Do you have questions on jobs, immigration, anything - the

last ten minutes of the show is yours, hashtag Newsbeat. Both sides

are here. For the Remain campaign, Chuka Umunna. For the Leave

campaign, Dominic Raab. APPLAUSE

With nine days to go, how are you guys feeling about the vote? I'm

from Telford and I'm voting Remain because I believe the economy is

going to be stronger if we stay in the EU. We need migrants' help to

boost the economy. Everyone's assuming the worst if we are to

stay. We're going to hear a lot of pessimism from the Remain side.

Instead of seeing this as a negative step for Britain, this is more of a

golden opportunity. Immigration is a disgrace and pretty much an insult

to working class British people. Our sovereignty is in tatters. It's time

we realise we're worth more than a star on someone else's flag. What's

your response to that? I counteract that. I disagree completely.

Migrants are boosting the economy. We have an ageing population, which

unfortunately they can't keep paying into. So obviously the migrants are

just putting in more money for the NHS to help them. Whether you are

online or watching on TV, we're at the O2 Institute, not the usual gig

they have here. We've split the audience in two, the people who

think they are going to vote to leave and the people who think

they're going to vote to stay. So, time for the topic, you say is one

of the most important, immigration. Here's Nick with the stuff you need

to know. In 2015, it's estimated 270,000

people came to live in the UK from inside the EU. 277,000 people came

from outside. Take away the number that left the UK in that time, you

get an increase in the population of 188,000 from outside the European

Union and 184,000 from inside. This number the UK can control with a

points-based system limiting entry. This number, though, it can't,

because of an EU rule called the freedom of movement. So let's

explain that. As part of the EU, the UK is in something called the single

market. It was set up to help trade between member countries. If you're

part of the single market, you have to agree to freedom of movement,

meaning EU citizens can come and live and work freely in your

country. The Leave campaign would like to extend the points-based

system to people coming from Europe as well as those outside. To do

that, we'd need to get rid of the freedom of movement and get out of

the single market. That would mean leaving the EU. But and there's

always a but, because of the trade benefits, even if the UK was out of

the European Union, it may still want to remain in the single market,

like Norway and Norway has a high proportion of EU immigrants --

higher proportion of EU immigrants than the UK. The UK -- migrants

contribute more to the UK's wallet than they get back. The majority of

them have jobs lined up before they get here. The Leave camp claim

immigration can impact jobs. They point to evidence that it can drive

down wages. They say high levels of immigration put too much pressure on

public services, like hospitals and schools. In simple terms, the

immigration debate can be split into two: On one side, it's all about the

benefits. The Remain campaign say it helps the UK economy and makes the

country richer. For the other, it's about control. The Outcampaign say

the only way to keep numbers in check is to get out of the EU.

Immigration, what are the types of conversations you're having with

your friends? For me, immigration's quite a personal thing. I'm actually

a second generation immigrant. My mum's Romanian. My dad grew up in

Canada. I grew up in Scotland and spent my entire life. There the

point about immigration is no-one in the Leave campaign is suggesting

that we're going to pull up the drawbridge or not allow immigrants

come to this country. That's not our message. What we want is to be like

any other country in the world, not one of the 27 EU member states, that

have their own immigration policies to make it work for their own

countries. There is nothing wrong with the immigration policies that

those countries have. Why can't we have the privilege they do? Why

can't we have immigration policies to cope with the NHS and our own

industries. For me, the immigration point seems like common sense the

argument to leave. It's something the Remain campaign has no answers

for. For remain we have xenophobic literature being produced. It says

vote Remain to stop immigration from non-EU countries, which is an ugly

and distasteful campaign as well. Today in Scotland Ming Campbell said

a Brexit vote would damage race relations. This shows the shameful,

negative Remain campaign which has turned from project fear to project

ugly. When we say Brexit, we mean Britain exiting the European Union.

I'm from Birmingham, honestly, I believe it's ignorant and awful as

well to believe that mass immigration or immigration as a hole

is negative to the UK. You look back through history, immigration has

always been fundamental in British society. It has upheld our values

and industry. It's upheld our country. After World War II, the

gushingaways coming over -- Gurkhas coming over, taking the jobs we

needed to be done. People are coming over to do the work that is needed

to be done as well as ensuring the prosperity and future of our

country. On a further note, I think it's quite awful as well, when you

look at people like myself of a dual heritage, people with the

opportunity of our ancestors to come over. My family on one side came

from Jamaica in the 1950s. They've worked constantly since they've come

over. It's always understood that it's the worst thing that can

possibly happen. It's always seen as completely negative when we don't

look at the positive benefits it brings. What's your response? This

idea of fear when it comes to immigration? Like Joshua, I come

from a background of immigrants. My father is a refugee to this country

from Czechoslovakia. I have a Brazilian wife. I want Britain to be

an outward, open country and a global player with global or risens.

I want that for -- horizons, I want that for my family. I agree about

the benefits of immigration. The problem is the lack of control. The

truth is no-one on the Remain side is suggesting that in relation to

non-EU immigration we open our borders. There is no other country

or region in the world with open border immigration. I don't think

the Remain camp can airbrush the costs as well as talking about the

benefits. Let me give you an example in. Bulgaria and Romania, the

average wage is ?3 an hour. In this country, thankfully the minimum wage

is 7. ?7.20 an hour. You have to think of the pull factor that has,

the downward pressure it has on wages in this country and also, the

strain it puts on infrastructure like housing and the impact on

public services like the NHS and schools. People can say, the Remain

camp can say, this is just a price worth paying, be honest about it and

be honest about who is bearing the brunt. It's your generation as the

working and lower middle income families that will feel those

pressures. When you say it's going to be our generation taking the

brunt of it. I believe our generation has more compassion of

that, more unity. We have more of a brighter future together. It's about

unity. We can't discriminate and segregate against these people

because they're from a poor background in Eastern Europe, for

example. They're coming over specifically for benefits or certain

type of wage. We need to look at coming together as one rather than

causing constant segregation and discrimination, which ultimately is

just tearing us apart. Is that what the Leave campaign stands for?

Absolutely not. Our current rules are discriminatory. We have

open-door immigration with Europe in relation to non-EU immigration, all

the talent and benefits we can get from that we have a points based

system. If you really believe in open-door immigration, wouldn't you

advocate it for non-EU immigration? There is no-one in mainstream

politics that does. Chuka Umunna? I wouldn't deny that immigration can

pose challenges in our labour market. That's why you need a good,

national minimum wage at the highest level possible that is actually

enforced, which it isn't always by the current government. I think

people rightly want people to contribute into our Social Security

system before they take out. They're going to have to do that for four

years. They want to help people would come here to actually

integrate and learn our language. But this idea that we have housing

problems, we have challenges in the NHS, school place challenges and the

rest of it, because of all of these immigrants is complete nonsense.

Actually, lets the current Government off the hook. Let's not

forget the other side of the equation. Lots of people might want

to live and work in other countries at some point. We have two million

Brits living and working in the European Union and enjoying the

benefits that brings. Let's not forget the 100,000 EU nationals who

work in our NHS here and help it go, help it keep going. Let's not forget

the fact that we have 1. 5 million people employed here in EU citizen

owned businesses. Let's have a balanced debate. Let's not dump the

blame for our country's problems on EU immigrants.

I'm from South Wales. I want to say that you seem to be suggesting that

if we leave the European Union we can never work in Europe again.

That's nonsense. It is scaremongering. You can all go and

work in Europe. You can apply for a visa, like you would to any other

country in the world, but that is beside the point I wanted to make.

We talk about discrimination in the immigration system. I work in a

Bengali restaurant and I see first hand the discrimination in the

system. There is a discrimination because people from outside the

European Union have to go through a double standard system. A lot of

these people their grand fathers and grand mothers suffered through World

War II for this country an the Commonwealth. We are friends. We are

allies outside the European Union, hard working people with skills to

bring here. Curry industry, curry shops are closing at a rate of

week in the United Kingdom - Is that week in the United Kingdom - Is that

because of immigration policies? That can be traced almost directly

to immigration policies. It's incredibly difficult to source the

skills in the UK for chefs in that industry. Do you want a limit on

people from inside the European Union but more people to be able to

come in from outside? I want what the Leave campaign advocates, a

complete across the board points system that allows people with

skills, people would want to come here to work, people who want to

come here and work hard to come to the UK, not just because they're

born in Europe by some kind of virtue of birth. That's wrong.

That's discriminatory. I don't mind where you came from. You can come

here and work either way. The points based system that applies to non-EU

immigrants coming here has nothing to do - the restriction that's

you're talking about, have nothing to do with the EU and everything to

do with the Government's policy, which is to get immigration down to

the tens of thousands. If you adopt the points based system which Leave

advocates, this Australian system, that they have in Australia, they

actually had that system in Australia to promote immigration.

They have at least two or three times the amount of immigration that

we have. Look, as I said, I'm not denying that immigration poses

challenges. But the idea that if we left the European Union immigration

would fall away as an issue, as the package just showed is for the

birds. Wee got more people coming to -- we've got more people coming here

from outside the European Union than inside the European Union. We

shouldn't be conning people - It's about level, isn't it? What should

happen, what should the immigration policies be? Because it is an issue

for Labour voters as well. Absolutely. Like I've said, I don't

deny it's an issue. Enforce the national minimum wage. Ensure people

contribute into the system before taking out. One of the biggest

things that we have failed to do, decade after decade, never mind

immigration from the European Union, but from other countries as well, we

have failed to properly ensure that we have intergrated communities in

this country. Here in Birmingham, where I represent in London, we

pride ourselves on our diversity, the fact is we have communities

living parallel lives. We spend so much time focussed on the numbers of

people coming in - I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about that - we don't

spend enough time thinking about when people settle here how do we

make sure they're part of the community? Let us do that more.

I'm from Stafford. I completely agree with Chuka Umunna tonight not

just because I'm on the Remain campaign. What I will say is that

people say that immigrants and immigration are taking a massive

toll on our welfare system, on our country, on everything that comes

out of our pockets. But teenage pregnancy is at an all-time high.

It's not just immigrants giving birth and having sex. It's not just

choose to have elderly parents or choose to have elderly parents or

choose to go to a better country to have a better life. As long as you

want to do well in the world, as want to do well in the world, as

long as you've not got a criminal record and you're not going to be a

massive threat to anyone, you should be welcome anywhere, as long as

there's space for you. Do you think there should be any limits to

immigration in this country? I think the limits that we have on now are

being highly tested at the moment, especially by events going on around

the world. A lot of people are forming their opinion of immigration

on things that are being called terrorist attacks or by racial

stereotyping and xenophobia in the media. Dominic Raab, what does the

Leave campaign say about limits when it comes to immigration? We'd like

the same limits we have in relation to non-EU immigration, which every

other country around the world - You say that, but those numbers are

generally level. In fact more people came from - when you look at net

migration - more people came from outside the EU. It fluctuates

though. In relation to EU migration, you have control. The glaring thing

immigration is all good or bad. I immigration is all good or bad. I

don't think that's where anyone in the room is. It's where you need to

have national control. Yes, you yield the benefits both culturally,

socially and economically, but you can control the pressures and costs

on local infrastructure. You can't airbrush that out of the debate.

That's why we've heard today three senior Labour figures, Tom Watson,

Andy Burnham, I forget the third... Erm...... Ed Balls, saying that the

EU rules on free movement have to change. The reason I find it

slightly disingenuous, not on Chuka Umunna's part, we've just had a

re-negotiation, the rules haven't changed. If you want to exert

control, you have to vote and take back control. This whole debate

shouldn't be consumed by immigration, but it's an important

thing that youngsters are concerned about up and down the country.

What's your response to that, we're hearing different things today from

Labour Party, from Jeremy Corbyn, and then different things from Tom

Watson. What's your response? I haven't heard what they've all been

saying today, but I think - I want to correct one thing. I don't want

people watching think there are no controls. We're not part of the

Schengen area, the passport free area. In most EU countries you can

move around without necessarily showing a passport. When you get off

a plane in Birmingham, you show your passport. The issue with free

movement is we've made a bargain, if you like. We have three to four

million jobs linked to our membership of the European Union.

We're here in the West Midlands, a great, industrial manufacturing

heart land, incredible industries here, not least of the car industry

- Are you saying those jobs would go? The bargain we made is because

of economic benefits, we think on balance we do far better

notwithstanding some of the challenges immigration poses, having

access to the single market. The problem that we've got, the package

showed if, if we want to stay part of the single market, even if we

leave, the model would probably be Norway. So Norway isn't a member of

the European Union, but it's part of that big free trading zone. They've

had to accept the free movement that goes with that. Now I'm not saying

that if we weren't part of the single market we would not be able

to trade with Europe. Maybe there's some Remain people who do, I don't

claim that. The question is on what terms. When we go and buy things

from these guys we don't pay the tariff and vice versa. To make that

real for people, 28% of the produce on High Street shop shelves, from

cheese, chocolate, wine and healthier things, they come here

from the EU. We will get onto the economy. We won't pay the tariff. We

are coming to that. What can you tell us for sure when it comes to

wages and migration? There was a Bank of England report that looked

at this. It found there was an impact of immigration on suppressing

wages in some sectors, particularly in semi-skilled and unskilled

sectors but it was fairly small. A 10% increase in immigration, which

is quite a lot would lead to a 2% drop in wages in those worst

affected sectors. Fairly limited, though there is an impact. The other

thing to bear in mind, you have to put that into the broader context of

what might happen to the whole economy and the effect that might

have on wages as well if we chose to lever the EU. What's happening

online? Loads coming through already. The last ten minutes of the

show are yours, hashtag Newsbeat. Immigration has divided people on

the floor. It's the same on social media. Matthew, "The immigration

issue isn't racist. A bus can only fit so many people in. It works the

same with the island we're on." Suzanne says:

Curtis picks up on something: What about jobs, wages, getting a

mortgage, how could all of that change once we've got a result at

the end of next week? Belinda is confuse. . She got in touch and

said, "If we leave the EU, is it true we face ten years of economic

uncertainty? Loads to talk about then.

There are big figures being knocked around by both the In and Out

campaign. The Out campaign is mentioning this one, the rough

amount they say the UK gives the EU each week in membership fees, money

they say would be better spents on our NHS. But there's a couple of

details that we should clear up. First of all, things to a deal,

signed in 1984, the UK never actually pays that amount. It's

reduced before going anywhere. So around 276 million leaves our

treasury's pocket. Then we get money back for farming, grants to

universities, research centres and engineering institutions. The actual

figure the UK gives to the EU each week is closer to ?161 million.

Still a lot of cash, but the Remain camp says you should think of it as

entry fee into a club, where the free drinks are worth more than the

money you paid to get in. More on that in a Sebbing. First -- sec. The

Remain camp have figures that need explaining to. They claim families

would be ?4,300 worse off if the UK left the EU. Despite using this line

a lot, in truth it's a guess. The prediction that they don't even

think will happen for another 15 years and even if it did, they've

exaggerated their own figures. So now we've dealt with those, let's

look at trade. About half the UK's imports and exports are done with

other EU countries, allowing businesses to avoid paying taxes,

when they buy and sell abroad, like duty free. The Remain camp claim

three million jobs are linked to trade with the EU. The Leave camp

say they won't be under threat because the UK could negotiate

better deals on its own. In truth it's difficult to say what the

financial impact of the UK leaving the EU would be. It's all based on

guess work. While economists generally say the EU membership has

benefitted the UK, it affects different people and businesses in

different ways. So while some regions and sectors may gain, others

may lose ou. -- out. We are live on Radio 1, one

Extra and the News Channel. Next we're talking about the economy.

What's your name? I'm Harris, I'm from London. I just wanted to talk

about how the US and the EU are currently negotiating a huge trade

deal and if we were to leave the EU, we would be at a separate part of

the table looking in. I wanted to know how you think that we could

renegotiate a deal with the US when they already have one of the most

lucrative deals on the table with the EU? Let's put that to Dominic

Raab. One of the golden opportunities of being outside the

EU is to be freed up to trade more energy etically on a global scale

with the States, North America, from Asia to Latin America. Those are the

growth markets of the future. The reason I think that Britain will be

better at free trade deals than the EU is because it's not ham strung by

the protectionism and special interests of 28. The EU has not

signed that deal with the US. It is in the mud. It was supposed to be

done under Obama. It's stalled. In fact the EU hasn't signed, sealed

and delivered a free trade deal with an economy any bigger than South

Korea, half the size of Britain's economy. If you lock at small and

mid-ranking economies, Switzerland, South Korea, Chile, Singapore, they

have a much better record of signing free trade deals and the quality of

them is better. When the EU signs free trade deals, in the majority of

cases, UK export growth goes down. When those other economies,

Singapore, South Korea, Switzerland, sign free trade deals, in the

majority of cases their growth in exports goes up. Not only is the EU

Laosy at negotiating them, but the nature of the deals is poor. The

source is Michael Burridge who researches for Civitas. This is

about whether or not the UK would have more clout as part of a market

of 500 million people or as a country with 65 million. I don't

like confessing this to you and in front of such a young audience, but

size isn't everything. LAUGHTER

What really matters is the nature of your offer. The problem is for the

EU is its size and scale bogs it down. It has all the special

interests of 28 countries, particularly the French

protectionism from their farmers. Latin America, for example, the

trade block there, that on the Government's estimate to stay in the

EU, it would benefit the British economy by 2. ?2.5 billion a year,

yust being paralysed by special interests in the UK. We're getting

into a lot of detail now. Do you agree, size isn't everything? Look,

the first thing to reflect on for viewers and everyone here, I

suppose, is the EU itself is our biggest cut my. 44% of our --

customer. 44% of exports goes to them. If you look at the number of

exports from the 27 member states to us it's about 5%. They are a far

bigger customer to us than we are customer to them, which is why we

massively benefit from being able to trade freely with them. In terms of

the rest of the world, the EU has agreements with 50 other economies

outside the European Union. There's another six coming down the track.

For example, we've got trade agreements with Jamaica, Pakistan,

Malaysia, Japan is being negotiated at the moment. I'm not saying that

if we came out we wouldn't negotiate those things, but the question is on

what terms. Dom talked about China. When I was the Shadow Business

Secretary for the Labour Party in the last five years, I wasn't on a

trade mission to Beijing. I can tell you the Chinese government told me,

you have much more negotiation clout with us when you're sitting on one

half of the table with half a billion other people negotiating

with China and our 1. 3 billion people, than if you were in the

corner on your own with your 65 million people. That's what they

told me. If you say look at the Swiss deal. Dominic was talking

about how the Swiss have reached all these amazing deals. Their deal with

China is not a good deal. If you're talking about size, I'd say quality

is pretty important in this. If you're going to have a deal, let it

deliver for you. What the Swiss have done they've given full access to

the Chinese, almost immediately to their markets and they don't get the

same back. Size isn't everything, quality is the most important. Over

to you. We're talking about economies. We seem to forget about

the family. Families are small economies. That's how they survive.

Certain amount of income, certain amount of expenditure. It is

laughable that the Remain campaign seems to be in favour, well so they

suggest, in favour of the British working class, when as we discussed

earlier, the expression of wages is a very real fact and does affect

people. Is that something you've experienced? Personally, yes. Can

you tell us? No, I won't go into personal circumstances with people.

In terms of knowing people who have lost out orn jobs because of

undercutting, especially, dare I say it, eastern European immigration, it

does happen. It's very easy for the London syndrome, which many of our

political class can sit back in their chairs and say this doesn't

happen. It does happen. Not only does it happen, but it happens on a

large scale. We're not allowed to talk about it. We can talk about it

now. What type of jobs. Don't give us names. Low skilled jobs. This has

been allowed on the basis that the lib-lab conhas told everyone that

British people, especially young British people, I grew up being told

this, are lazy. We are not lazy. I have done jobs in factories. I

worked in McDonald's and we can do just as much. To predict that the

entire British youth are worthless to the jobs that they have is

absolutely laughable. Does anyone here think British people are lazy,

young British people? No, of course they're not. I think what's actually

astonishing about this debate is to hear people on the Leave side

especially representative of this current Government implying that the

main problem facing our economy is the EU, the common market,

immigration. What is putting pressure on public services is that

the first thing this Government did when it got into office was cut the

buildings schools of the future programme and get rid of thousands

of school places. After flogging off some of the hospitals to Richard

Branson, decided junior doctors weren't worthy of being treated

properly. It failed to build any houses. Now it's faced up to the

fact there might be a housing crisis. It's building aFordable

starter homes, so-called affordable, that only 2% of the people on their

national living wage can afford. We've heard a real-life example -

There's a reason that they're passing the buck. There's a reason

that Nigel Farage, Michael Gove want you to believe that the problem is

in Brussels. It's not in Brussels. It's in Westminster. It's in ten

Downing Street. What do you think when you hear

stories like the one we just heard about people's wages being affected?

What you think when you hear real life that samples? Hundreds of

people have been replaced with zero hour contracts. It is nothing to do

with immigration. It is the economic strategy pursued by this government

for the last five years. I am Chloe, I am from Northern Ireland and I am

a farmer. If we leave the EU, I know that 97% of our lamp produce goes to

the EU. -- lamb. Can you still guarantee a fair price? I cannot fix

a price, but it goes back to the trading relationship with the EU if

we come back. Lots of people talked about the relationship, the Swiss

option, Norwegian option, the UK option is bigger than all of those

combined, we are the fifth biggest economy. The European firms sell to

us whether it is car manufacturers or farmers, ?16 billion worth of

goods and services. There is clearly a strong mutual interest, there is a

stronger interest on their side in not correcting the trade barriers

you are worried about. Those suggesting they would ask Emma. I

also think if rational self interest did not win the day and the

politicians in the EU decided to play addictive it, they would face

severe criticism. The leading members of the Remain campaign would

second see we have a high, ambitious trading relationship with the EU

whether we are in or out. Can you make that guarantee? There are no

guarantees. There is uncertainty whether we stay in or come out. The

point I was making is the head of the CBI, he has said it is

inconceivable we would not have a strong, ambitious trading

relationship. You have to ask yourself if Brussels would cut its

own nose to spite its face, is that the most attractive reason to stay

in that political clan. What you are saying is that it will be OK, but

the majority of employment in Northern Ireland is from

agriculture. We are not talking about England, Scotland or Wales, we

are talking about Northern Ireland and I don't think you have been

thinking about Northern Ireland in this whole process. The borders or

the economy of Northern Ireland at all. I wanted to pick up on what the

gentleman in the red shirt was saying a bit earlier. The two things

actually, the one thing he stared at the start of the programme,

juxtaposing the issues of working-class British people against

that of immigrants. I wanted to perhaps take the opportunity to

remind the gentleman that a lot of British working class people are of

immigrant stock. Secondly, he also talked about this notion of these

people in London. I represent a constituency in an inner London

borough. In London boroughs have a child poverty rate of 40%. The idea

that everyone is having a party and that they have a particular view in

London and are out of touch with everyone else is nonsense. This goes

to the heart of the tone of the which is we are going through

globalisation, it is changing everything. When Dominic and I were

at university, correct me if I am wrong, there was no Twitter,

Facebook, the world is so different. In this context we are frightening

people and offering opportunities, we could turning on ourselves, set

up against different groups, it is their fault or actually we can work

out whether it is in London, Birmingham, whether you were

working-class and middle-class, how do we held a brighter -- how do we

build a better Britain? I wasn't just talking about white people. You

do not know if I come from an immigrant background. My ancestry is

Turkish. In terms of you saying trying to direct it down that route,

I think it is exactly what the Remain campaign has been doing

within tight situation. At the start of the programme you talked about,

you set up this notion of what is happening and the impact of

immigrants in our labour market against the interests of

working-class people. To me, my father was an immigrant to this

country and was working class, I am simply saying to you I don't think

it helps to talk in that way, because in the end we can't blame

one group of people for one thing, but I am not sure ultimately that

that is the way that Britain is going to continue doing well in the

future. It is common sense in a business mind that if you have more

of a product, the product is worth less. It is the same with people

power, if you have more people, their worth is less in terms of

their ability to work. The money they can get and the money they can

give their families, that is common sense. I am not blaming anybody.

When you have an open door you cannot control, that is a direct

effect upon that circumstance. Does anyone else have concerns when it

comes to the economy, buying houses for example? Most of us in the

audience are young people, we will be hoping to buy ourselves a house

in the next ten years or so and when the house prices are in excess of

?200,000, I think it cannot just be blamed on the banks and the Remain

campaigners -- on the banks as the main Mac campaigners do. I think it

is a simple case of demand and supply. When the supply cannot keep

up, then the prices go up. We need immigration controls. We need to

control the demand we are faced with and if we do not do that, we will

continue to fail to give young people the opportunity to get on the

housing ladder and to build themselves a life. I am not looking

forward to getting myself into the housing market when I look at house

prices as they are now. You are planning to vote Leave? When did you

make your mind up? Yes, I made my mind up a year ago when the

Conservative government pledged to give us a referendum, I looked into

the subject. Back then I was quite cautious and I was four Remain. I

did not want to risk anything. As you learn more and more about the

nature of the EU and how it wants to become a federal superstate and the

corruption that happens in the and the undemocratic nature of that, we

cannot vote out the people who make our laws. -- in there. 17% of the

laws in this country are given to us from outside will -- outside. We do

not have a figure. The House of Commons predicted is about 59%.

There may be a short-term period of uncertainty, a short-term period of

decline, but I think in the medium to short-term, for ordinary young

people in this country, I think we will be much better off if we leave.

If British businesses are not strangle by the regulations they are

faced with as being members of the EU and if they are given the freedom

to be a job without the burden of EU regulation, I think our economy will

prosper at a much greater rate than it has done. APPLAUSE

My name is Dan, I run a business in Birmingham. We try to win public

sector contracts. The gentleman has explained why he wants to leave, I

want to remain because there are some risks. There are huge risks

when it comes to the single market. I do not think we will get the same

deals that we have at the moment. Why don't you believe that? Why

would they? If European countries have a doubt in the back of their

mind, if we get the same deal, they will think why will the country

stay. They want to make it unattractive to other countries so

they don't believe. Say we do get the same trade deals, all we have

done is take a step away from the table, we don't have influence or

power, we lose the decision-making capacity we have at the moment and

that is a huge risk to the economy in the future. Big claims about the

economy, Alex, what can you tell us? What we know is when it comes to

jobs and wages, the big question is whether leaving the EU would be good

or bad for the economy. The weight of economic opinion suggests it

would be bad for the short term. That is not all economists, but

there are some big economic names in there and the Remain campaign had

said those names many times. The Leave campaign have said there will

be longer term damage in terms of growth. It will come down to what

kind of deals we can negotiate and what country would look like in

accommodation with other countries post Brexit. Next, what is happening

online? It seems people care about what is in their back pocket. Katie

sent us this on Facebook: Chris picks up on something that

Dominik mentioned: That is maybe once you Alex in a

second, but Alex says this: . Would trade agreements be

unchanged? No. If we left, we would have to negotiate bad relationship.

Of course it may mean we were free from some EU regulations, but what

that would look like almost certainly would not be completely

unchanged. What is your name? I am Chloe and I live in Birmingham.

Myself and many other people on this side of the room of voting Remain

because of the fear of the unknown. We do not know what Britain's place

in the world will be like if we leave EU. I am tired of the Leave

campaign trivialising that. We have never not been in the EU. For us and

people of our age in particular, a lot of the older generation are

voting in the referendum and are ignoring the security and that is

important. And I don't understand why you would risk the deal we have

now. What about the language we have here? We hear things like putting a

bomb under the economy, a bonfire of workers' rights, do you think that

is something to do with it? I think the discourse by vote Leave is not

great, it is a lot of finger-pointing and blaming people

for problems. I genuinely believe when it comes to security, the

threat to Britain nowadays, it is so much bigger than state problems, it

is terrorism, global warming, that is nothing to do with any country,

Britain cannot deal with that in isolation. The bomb under the

economy came from the Remain campaign and not Leave, but putting

that aside, I am not telling you there are any risks. But it is risk

versus reward. Remain have airbrushed the risks of staying in.

We have used unemployment in countries like Greece, the Eurozone

crisis is still not being grappled with and Italy with its debt

problems, it looks like it will fall into the same rut. You have the

chaos on your borders. What you mean by chaos on borders? Look what we

are seeing, the referendum is being hailed in June because there is a

fear if it went into July or later in the autumn he would have another

summer of the migration crisis and that would scare voters even more.

That has been a tactical judgment. Are you blaming that on being part

of the European Union? There is to be a problem with the freedom of

movement roles. Senior Labour figures and members of vote Leave

have been pointing out. The EU has lost the will to deal with its own

problems and on the risk front, the greater risk is staying in. I also

think we should be making more of the positive opportunities of

leaving the EU and I will properly come back to that. We will come back

to you. APPLAUSE Something that has not been touched

on is the special status in the negotiations that take place in

February. David Cameron was one of 28 European Union leaders, they have

negotiated special status, it is feared the unknown, but Britain

already has a good deal, they have opt in for single market, and opt

out of the euro, I don't know why you would risk a cushy deal. Why

would you risk a cushy deal? I am not really undecided, all the

different farmyards, they had vote Leave. The farmers with no more than

anyone what was good for them. What do you think? I am not a farmer, I

don't doubt if it would be good for farmers. I will Leave. More so the

immigration side of it. I think it should be controlled, but not with a

points system. I don't see why I think it is right for people to turn

around and save people from a bad background cannot come over and

better their lives. Britain's place in the world. I am Freddie from

Greater London. Picking up on the Lady's point, he says that David

Cameron has negotiated. You saw with Netherlands and France, they both

out rightly said no and they were completely ignored and the EU

constitution was in fermented anyway. I want to ask Chuka Umunna a

question. The idea of representing the working class, we all know that

Jeremy Corbyn is a closet Eurosceptic, but how can you appeal

to all the fisheries and the coastal people who have lost their

businesses? They were paid to burn their own boats and flow away their

livelihoods because the EU wanted to share our waters. This theme of

labour and the working class keeps on coming up again and again. First

ball, the Labour Party seeks to represent everybody of all different

backgrounds. That is what it was set up to do, the People's party. I do

not agree with your analysis. If you look at a lot of seaside towns and I

have visited a lot of them during my time as a Shadow Business Secretary.

What you see there is quite a lot of industries which have moved on. They

face more international competition. I will level with you, governments

of all put physical persuasions have made mistakes here in terms of

different industries and different communities. We have not given them

the tools locally to adapt to the changing circumstances, but we have

not implemented proper industrial strategies so if industries fall

away, I am not saying this about fishing, that you enable new

industries to grow up there. That is a domestic issue as opposed to one

for the European Union. Just the gentleman about the farmers. I do

not represent a farming community, but among the farmers I have spoken

to going around the country, they do want us to stay in. They believe on

balance that is the right thing. The majority of them do, the National

farmers union, there was a lot of debate as to what they would do.

They formed a position for us to stay in the European Union. The

final thing I wanted to say something on, the euro in this

migration, and is, we are not part of the Euro. -- migration crisis.

And secondly in terms of the migration crisis, it should be

referred to, what cause that to happen was middle east instability,

Syria in particular and we have growing instability in Africa. Those

things will persist if we leave the EU. It is cross-border and refugees

who do come in from Syria do not have the same rights to move around

freely in the European Union, but ultimately we will only be able to

deal with that problem which is global and cross-border if we work

with our European counterparts. Will people be able to come here from

Turkey? No. The remains side have been accused of this project fear

and one of the key scared stories that have been put out by the Leave

campaigners, from Nigel Farage to Michael Gove, is that Turkey is

joining very soon. Even Boris Johnson has said that Turkey joining

the European Union is simply not on the cards. In terms of the deal they

have done, it does not extend to the UK. We are not part of the Schengen

passport free zone. If you want to know the truth of that, go on the

BBC fact checker. That will give you the truth story. A shout out for you

there, that will give you the true story on Turkey. That is the biggest

scare story by Leave. I am Harriet, I am 22 and from south-west England.

I would like to talk about Britain's place in the world. Our military and

industrial strength is brilliant at the moment now we are in the EU.

Scotland will leave us if we exit the EU, is that a good thing? I

think that Scotland will stay. But they will leave. You have the

foresight of a soothsayer. Polls say that Scots do not think they should

have a second referendum, that is not the same as what the SNP are

saying. I want Britain to be a global, out looking player. Our

military security is protected by Nato, not the EU. There are

examples, I used to work in a business, I worked in the Foreign

Office, I worked means that a criminal court, the WTO, I made a

passionate case the free trade, good for jobs, that is a good example

where we gave up our vote and we are held back by that special interest

of the EU. That is a good example of where we can be a far more energetic

leader and global player and something that makes a difference

not just a Britain and the global economy, but also the very poorest

countries in the world who will only did themselves out of the poverty

trap if they can trade more freely. That is something Britain can

achieve outside the EU. Alex, what can you tell us about the UK, how

powerful would it be outside of BT you? If is an unknown. -- outside of

the EU? The UK is a member of other major national bodies as well, you

cannot say that its global status hangs purely on the European Union,

warnings from both sides about what that impact may be. Just worth

mentioning one thing for some clarification on the security

measures which we have had quite a lot of chat about. The Schengen zone

is very confusing, but there is a section of the EU where you can move

around without passports. The UK is not in it, you have to show a

passport, even from within the EU, but they are not always subject to

the same detailed security checks as they are from outside the EU. The

audience at home are divided when it comes to the importance of the EU.

James says: . On the other side you have people

like . What about the peace deal with

Northern Ireland? I don't think the peace deal row lies on Northern

Ireland -- the peace deal relies on the EU at all. I don't think anyone

can say we will go back to the troubles. I think that goes into

scaremongering. We believe it there. Other countries have now suggested

an EU referendum, how will it affect us if other stable countries leave

but we remain? She is saying there will be other referendums? How will

it affect us if other countries leave and we stay? I don't think it

will be a good thing. What the European Union does is bind together

in the main pretty advanced economies who are facing big, global

challenges and when we face instability and big global

challenges, historically we have sometimes ended up in conflict, but

one of the good things is it has brought us together and kept us

interconnected and almost made us sort out those issues together. You

can either go down the Donald Trump Avenue and seek to look to who you

can blame whether that is people, individuals or other countries. Are

you saying that is what the Leave camp -- campaign is doing? The Leave

campaign can speak for themselves. But I think that the EU shares our

values, why in the current context of massive change in the world would

we not do that. It is better than blaming other people. I am Tom and

I'm 23. On the 7th of June, a criminal was released and you said

UK families are at risk as being part of the EU. Are you saying

therefore that I am less at risk walking down the street past a UK

murderer than I am walking down the street pastor murderer from the EU?

APPLAUSE -- walking past a murderer from the

EU? No, you are at the same risk, but let's do something to reduce the

number of murderers in our country. When it comes to stopping people

from coming to this country we can only do it if they represent a

threat to our national security. As a matter of EU law, those make a big

difference. We are importing critical risk, but the EU is tying

our hands in terms of dealing with it. That is a security dividends

that we gain in coming out. A report from TUSC, they can look ten years

into their past and they could represent a future threat as well as

a past one. The money that we could use for the NHS, is there any

guarantee that it will be spent on the NHS? We have said the net amount

of money that we get back, of that we would spend... We think 100

million of that could go towards the NHS. Would it ease pressure on the

NHS if we left? Look at the people making this argument, Michael Gove

shut down a load of school rebuilding in my constituency, Iain

Duncan Smith has taken away educational maintenance allowance

and all of these people are basically cutting funding to the NHS

and they are telling you if we vote to leave we will throw all this

money at public services? These people have no credibility at all

when it comes to saying they will spend money on public services, they

never have done. APPLAUSE On the NHS, anything you can tell us

and anything else you have heard tonight? This point about public

services. If you take the net contribution each week, you are left

with ?170 million when you get all the money back from the EU. ?100

million on the NHS does not leave much for anything else. The leave

campaign is not the government as Dominik said, they cannot make

future pledges or promises, they can make suggestions about what may be

done with this money and the bigger point is anything we get back from

the EU, we would again have to put that in the context of the bigger

impact that it might have on the economy if we leave. The campaign is

an absolute farce, I am not voting. I am not sure who James is talking

about there. Let's leave with a note from

Victoria: . She has not told us now, we have

tweeted her back and she is staying quiet! You are very welcome. Some

wrapping up comments from both of you from what you have heard to

night. Why should people vote to leave? You should be a master of

your own destiny, take control of your laws, your money and your

borders. Overall, the future direction of this country for you

and your families and the next generation. I do not buy this

talking down British influence in the EU. Nine times out of ten we are

on the winning side when there are votes in the European Union. If you

might to beat the big challenges -- if you want to beat the big

challenges, climate change, economies making goods the people,

we are stronger working with others to deliver the goods that people

working at home rather than standing in the corner on our own shouting.

Where can people go to reality check themselves? Our website has

information on everything you have heard tonight. If you are still

unsure of the facts, get online and take a look. A big thank you to the

guys with us here in Birmingham and to all of you for your tweets, texts

and e-mails. We have plenty of fact list on our websites to help you

make a choice. Have a good night. APPLAUSE