Legalising Cannabis Newsbeat Debates


Legalising Cannabis

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This his Newsbeat debates. I am Tina Daheley and we are live in radio

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one's Live Lounge tonight for a special debate about cannabis.

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Tonight, we are asking the question should cannabis be legal in the UK?

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We will look at the arguments before and against and we will also take a

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look at what Britain can learn about the way the law works in other parts

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of Europe. Over the next 60 minutes we will hear from an audience of

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specialist guests. We have the crime artist. Hello. Doctor Aisha and

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sharing. And Rick Bradley from a national charity supporting people

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around substance use and mental health. We also have some Radio 1

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listeners with us. Hello! We also want to hear from you tonight.

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Should cannabis be legal in the UK. You can text us, to eat at BBC

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Newsbeat and we are using the hashtag Newsbeat debates. First,

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Newsbeat reporter Jim Connelly is with me. You have been looking into

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this subject for a Newsbeat documentary. Just remind us where we

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currently stand in the UK when it comes to the legality of cannabis?

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Cannabis is the UK's most popular illegal drug. We have 2 million

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people admitting using it. It is a class B drug and the government are

:02:01.:02:05.

at and it will remain that way. They will not change the law because they

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say it causes harm to users and wider society. If you're caught with

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it in possession you can face up to five years in prison, dealing it or

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growing you can face up to 14 years in prison. That is where we stand

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currently. The government say no chance of any change. You have

:02:24.:02:33.

looked at the science of the drug and also been out with a cannabis

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club who claim record membership and insist the drug causes less trouble

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than alcohol. When cannabis is grown it releases

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substances. THC is blamed for the mental health issues. Depending on

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the genetics of the plant you can have a high THC knows CBD strain or

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you could have it the other way round or something more balanced.

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There are three main types of product. Herbal, hash or high

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potency cannabis often called skunk. It has high levels of THC and almost

:03:43.:03:55.

no CBD. Some say it is the lack of CBD which can lead to mental health

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problems. My first stop is Brighton to meet Rob. He is the chair of the

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Brighton cannabis club. He is campaigning for a change in the law.

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Basically we are visiting a club. It is fully medicated. The meal is

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cannabis infused which will get you high. This is all about taking rocks

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of cannabis. It is a rainy drizzly day on the seaside, a lot of people

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will go to the pub at lunchtime, why not have a pint? We believe cannabis

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is a less harmful alternative to smoking tobacco or drinking alcohol.

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Where are we going? I cannot tell you the exact location. It is a

:04:45.:04:50.

restaurant in Brighton which will allow you some medicated products if

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you are a Brighton cannabis club member. That sounds a bit dodgy.

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In the kitchen some chefs have been hard at work knocking up some food.

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It looks pretty impressive, to be honest, and I -- to be honest it is

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not the site the of food you would expect in Amsterdam. The chef behind

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it has worked in some top restaurants. This is not what they

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will be putting in all the food. This green stuff is genuinely a

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dressing. The food will be infused with an oil that goes through it and

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that is where the cannabis will be. What is on the menu today? It will

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be corn-fed chicken Boo Johns then grilled sea bream fill it --

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this is a bit strange because we sat here and it is quite a civilised

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event. The government would say what you're doing is illegal and it is

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illegal because of the harm it can do to you, your friends and wider

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society. Why are you doing this? We believe the information is outdated

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and research is outdated. If you look at Spain, Portugal, Canada and

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America, they all forward progressive forward-thinking

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policies. We are looking at what it can do for the industry. You are

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representing Brighton Cannabis Club, how popular is the club? We have 400

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members. We have 40,000 Instagram followers and 6000 Facebook likes.

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At one of our outdoor events it is growing year-on-year. In the first

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year we only had 100 people turn up to it and then 1000 people in the

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next year. We had over 3000 people attending and 25,000. -- 25 stalls.

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Sitting here watching these guys, it all looks normal but what they are

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doing is illegal and they could be arrested. But should weed, cannabis,

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call it what you want, be illegal? That is the question we are asking

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today. Should it be illegal in the UK? You can get in touch and I want

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to get your reaction to what we have just been hearing. Is a cannabis

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infused meal just an excuse to eat we'd? Hello, I am a pharmacist in

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the north-west will stop pharmacists are the experts in medicines and

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acts the high street and I would be so sad to see any legalisation of

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this and for it to become more widely available. My concern is it

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would lead to considering other drugs because they would be exposed

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to the illegal black market areas of getting hold of the drugs. You think

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it would be a gateway drug? Yes. The other problem is the NHS is under so

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much strain at the moment and we have a mental health crisis. People

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who need mental health services cannot get access for weeks. I do

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not want more people to be suffering. We know this drug can

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cause psychosis which means delusions, hallucinations, anxiety

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and it can cause depression in some people. Do I want to be allowing

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that on our high street for people? Absolutely not. Who disagrees with

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that view? I will come to this lady at the back. I am Zoe McLeod, a

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student at Nottingham University. Reaction to the film first of all?

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It is an interesting and set because a lot of people struggle with

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smoking so it is an alternative, but in terms of the pharmaceutical use,

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I suffer from epilepsy personally, and I have been reading a lot of

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evidence about weed and cannabis oil with people with the same problem as

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me. I have been lots of stories of people in America are giving it to

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their children. There has been a lot of evidence to suggest it can treat

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PTSD, anxiety and insomnia. Who is giving you that evidence? It is more

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anecdotal but I think if we legalised it there would be more

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time to check if these things are true. We are hearing claims about

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the medical impact, how it can help certain conditions. Aisha, you are a

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doctor, what do you think? I understand there is controversy

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about whether it can help PTSD and certain other illnesses. My response

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to that, unfortunately, the evidence has not been overwhelming in favour

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of cannabis achieving some of these things. But the proviso is, and I'm

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going to declare I am sitting in the middle. I am not strongly in favour

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or against but I do think we need more high-quality research in this

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area to make it a good decision for everyone. Rick, you work for the

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drug and alcohol addiction charity, Adaction. Tell us about your

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experiences. We work nationwide with young people. Within our young

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people's services at the age of 18, probably two thirds or three

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quarters of those who are seeking support to cut down or stop use is

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in relation to cannabis. There are clear risks. We are not talking

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about overdoses but an impact on education, on jobs, on motivation,

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on relationships, on debt. You have issues around psychological

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dependence for some people and we have had mention of some mental

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health conditions. What we have to size is the vast majority of young

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people across who use cannabis do not have those problems. It is

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relevant for some people but not for others. When it comes to our

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position in terms of the law, we are very much in favour of

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decriminalisation for personal use. White? If you are criminalising

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young people you just add an additional are. Is it appropriate

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for a young person who is 15 or 16, they have been caught with a small

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amount of weed and then they have a record which can impact on jobs,

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education and travel. You have a stigma which is attached by society

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and also themselves. Recently we had a young person we were working with

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who got caught buying a small amount of cannabis from a group of friends.

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They have now got a criminal record and he classes himself as a drug

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dealer. He said, that is not who I am. You have got a lot of stigma

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attached. What we need to do is set aside the funds from the courts and

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the criminal justice system and focusing on it as a health issue,

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ploughing money which can be diverted from those processes into

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an additional area. We always hear about decriminalisation and

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legalisation, cannabis being legalised keeps coming up. Where do

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we stand? What do they mean? It is really important to define those

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terms. Decriminalisation would be the removal of sanctions for

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possession. Whether it would be no sanction at all or an administrative

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penalty. That someone who would be found with cannabis on them? There

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is national guidance which a small amount of possession should be

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defined by no criminal record. Those not available for Andrei teams. If

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you are talking about protecting young people, they are at risk of a

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criminal record. And when we talk about legalisation, we're not

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talking about a free for all on the high Street, what we are talking

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about is the term regulation, so a controlled market. That is

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government-controlled and you know what is in the drug so you don't

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have the issue of those high potency THC strains. I want to bring in

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Greg. A cannabis infused meal, is that going too far? Not at all. It

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is a safer way to consume cannabis. Myself and other members of the club

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are medical uses. Ingesting it that way is a safer way of using it. When

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you say medical, what do you mean? I have Crohn's disease. My immune

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system is attacking my digestive system. I was put on a lot of

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different pharmaceutical drugs, 16 in total. A lot of them are opiates,

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anti-inflammatory is and they are to try and control my immune system and

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take it back to zero. It did not work, it made me very ill. They

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thought they had to take my intestines out and give me a

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colostomy bag. I would have been fed through a straw into an artery and

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they gave me five years to live. I have outlived that by two years now.

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Cannabis is what I chose to use as my medicine. I went to Colorado and

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got medical cannabis oil which is legal out there. I saw how the

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medical industry works and I got access to good quality medicine and

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I have come back to the UK and I have continued using it and I am a

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healthy person. You have put the fact that use survived down to

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medicinal use of cannabis? My doctor said what had happened? I was not in

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a bid with a walking stick. I want to get reaction from you. I

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want to say that is an amazing story and I am happy your Crohn's disease

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is in remission. My perspective is unfortunately when we look at bigger

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numbers, sometimes there are vulnerable people and it unmasks the

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tendency to have the negative effects. That is something I see

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every day when I am working in practice. I see families. That would

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be my fear, that you have used it is a sensible and controlled manner,

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but whether there are some people because of their vulnerability and

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maybe the family structure, they would not have that guidance. Greg's

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experience, he says it has helped to save his life, what about that?

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There are anecdotal cases like this and I would ask we have more

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research. High quality, large studies to show. We already use in

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the NHS some cannabinoid derived drugs. But unfortunately the use is

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limited. We use it for the treatment of multiple sclerosis. There is a

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case to use it more widely in some other diseases and I understand

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Crohn's disease is one we will look into. Glaucoma, even HIV. You were

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nodding. I would like to touch on THC. It is a big problem that

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psychokinesis is coming up now. -- psychosis. If you look at the

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cannabis problem, you will see a lot of the psychosis is coming from high

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levels of THC. This is happening because the weed, skunk, cannabis,

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is not regulated and there is an underworld that grow things that

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have not been tested. You would not go to the shop and pick up a can of

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red liquid and just drink it if you did not know what was in it and that

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is where we are with cannabis, we have no control. In the old days you

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would smoke naturally grown weed and now it is grown in small

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laboratories by people who do not know what they are doing and I have

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seen it first hand from many different ages. Kids nowadays, they

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are getting their hands on the skunk, street skunk, we like to call

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it because it has no control over it. They smoke high levels of THC.

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They are getting psychosis, because that is where the problem is. We

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will come back to high potency cannabis. The meal we saw, when we

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talk about attitudes towards cannabis and people smoking, does it

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normalise it and this increase in cannabis clubs? On a basic one, the

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first thing I would see from that meal is a safe intake. Education on

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how to use cannabis is minimal. You cannot find anywhere in London a

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leaflet given out how to use safely. If somebody is cooking cannabis and

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eating it and they are not smoking, lighting fire and putting it into

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their lungs and burning their lungs, that is a safer way to consume and

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that is what people should look at, not the fact they are taking

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cannabis, that is safer, and they will live longer. Let me get your

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reaction to the cannabis meal. I have just graduated from the

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University of Exeter and I am against legalisation of marijuana.

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The meal is generally irresponsible. We have to point out the link with

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psychosis. It looked like a lovely meal. Why is it a problem? It is

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technically illegal and if any young person who did not know much about

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weed went in there, they could potentially have harmful effects.

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The key thing to establish is the link between psychosis and cannabis.

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In early 2017, a study came out in America, an analysis of 10,000

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studies relating to marijuana and it showed conclusive and substantial

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evidence between marijuana and psychosis. If you were to legalise

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marijuana, and have many young people who are potentially naive and

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do not know much about the effects of marijuana, that could be

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damaging. Thomas, thank you. Kirsty, would somebody be arrested for

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eating a cannabis meal? It is possession that is the offence so

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technically you are in possession. But if you are eating bats. The

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ingestion or taking of drugs is not illegal in this country -- if you

:21:09.:21:14.

are eating that. The people providing the meal are technically

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supplying the drug and so that is where the offence lies, and the

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people eating the meal you are in possession of your plate of food.

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Jim, what are people saying online? It is split. We have Ryan on Twitter

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who says it is ridiculous it is not and alcohol is. Tom Bolt Facebook

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says he does not smoke it but there are many people who do and it would

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be daft not to. Kerry here says absolutely for medical purposes.

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Against it, Tallulah, if you knew what cannabis could do you would

:21:49.:21:53.

never dream of taking it, she says. David said never legalise it it

:21:54.:21:57.

causes mental-health problems. Another said it is a gateway drug.

:21:58.:22:01.

And Charles said I hope you will talk about the differences between

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cannabis and skunk because skunk causes the problems. We will be.

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Remember you can keep your comments coming in. Should cannabis be legal

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in the UK? You can send a text. H 1199. You can tweet to Newsbeat and

:22:23.:22:30.

use the hashtag Newsbeat debates. -- eight 1199. We have been talking to

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attitudes here, how does it work in other places? There is a massive

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shift across the world to cannabis. The best example is North America.

:22:41.:22:46.

If you look at the USA, you have eight states legalised and more than

:22:47.:22:50.

half have moved to decriminalisation for medical use. Next year, Canada

:22:51.:22:55.

will legalise. Uruguay has done the same. In Europe it is patchy. More

:22:56.:23:01.

changeable. We have countries with strict laws and countries like

:23:02.:23:07.

Portugal who have more relaxed laws and have decriminalised. You went to

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Portugal and Sweden to look into this. Two countries with different

:23:13.:23:18.

approaches. Sweden, despite having a reputation for being liberal has

:23:19.:23:23.

some of the toughest drug laws in arguably the world. This is the

:23:24.:23:29.

minister in charge of policy. In Sweden we have broad political

:23:30.:23:35.

supporting government and parliament for a drug-free society. At the

:23:36.:23:40.

heart of your policy is the idea cannabis is a gateway drug. Why do

:23:41.:23:45.

you hold that policy so close? We see especially among young people

:23:46.:23:49.

and also study show that extensive use of cannabis, regular use of

:23:50.:23:57.

cannabis at an early age, also affects especially young

:23:58.:24:01.

people'sbrains. While many Swedish people agree with the government

:24:02.:24:06.

strict policy, plenty do not. Alexander is a bit of a celebrity, a

:24:07.:24:13.

former musician and now a judge on Sweden's. Talent. Essentially Sweden

:24:14.:24:19.

is the Saudi Arabia of drugs in Europe because in Sweden we had the

:24:20.:24:24.

idea we have a government, socialist, conservative, but it

:24:25.:24:28.

would spin aggressive anti-drugs policy. Sweden with a drug policy

:24:29.:24:35.

and culture surrounding drugs it is changing fast. We came here because

:24:36.:24:39.

people say it is the strictest country in Europe, but your argument

:24:40.:24:44.

is it might be stripped from politicians, but lots of young

:24:45.:24:49.

people are moving away from that and their attitudes are changing?

:24:50.:24:56.

Totally. Policy in Sweden, aggressive anti-drugs stance, it is

:24:57.:25:00.

an anomaly in Swedish culture. Sweden is liberal about sex for

:25:01.:25:05.

example. This aggressive conservative stance concerning drugs

:25:06.:25:08.

is kind of an anomaly. Swedish drug policy has been about the gateway

:25:09.:25:15.

drug. Cannabis seen as a gateway drug, all of your drug policy is

:25:16.:25:21.

based on this philosophy. A lot of people still believe that to be the

:25:22.:25:25.

case. We spoke to the head of police. We spoke to MPs. They say

:25:26.:25:30.

that is still the case. Why do you think it is different? It turned out

:25:31.:25:38.

to be alive, it is not true. Ironically some people starts with

:25:39.:25:41.

LSD and then smoke cannabis. If I come back in five years, will it be

:25:42.:25:48.

different, a legalised system? They are differentiating between drugs

:25:49.:25:52.

and recreational use and not addictive. We have the other

:25:53.:25:55.

category which is addictive drugs that are destructive will stop I do

:25:56.:26:01.

not see we would legalise those. We would have a more advanced and

:26:02.:26:05.

civilised debate on how we deal with addiction in itself and I think

:26:06.:26:08.

Sweden could be at the forefront of that. Later that evening I found two

:26:09.:26:15.

friends who had different views on cannabis. It is like with alcohol, I

:26:16.:26:24.

think it should be is prohibited as with alcohol. I do not see the

:26:25.:26:29.

difference between. Your off-licences are regulated. That is

:26:30.:26:34.

how you would like to treat weed? I think so. You can have a beer or

:26:35.:26:39.

glass of wine, pairing with food and wine and beer, but when it comes to

:26:40.:26:45.

drugs, it is just drugs. You think they should be banned? Yes,

:26:46.:26:54.

absolutely. Is that the solution? It is a generation question. The

:26:55.:26:59.

younger ones smoke more. Have you smoked? Yes, I have. But you would

:27:00.:27:06.

not do it in front of her? She loves me anyway. The Swedish approach on

:27:07.:27:13.

paper is not 1 million miles from the laws in the UK, but my next stop

:27:14.:27:18.

is somewhere with a different approach. 16 years ago Portugal took

:27:19.:27:23.

a bold step to decriminalise all drugs. While it does not mean they

:27:24.:27:28.

have been legalise, it means if you are stocked with a small amount of

:27:29.:27:31.

anything from cannabis to her when you are treated as if you have a

:27:32.:27:35.

medical problem rather than criminal. This doctor designed the

:27:36.:27:40.

system. It started from a catastrophic position. We had one of

:27:41.:27:47.

the highest rates of problematic drugs used in Europe by the late

:27:48.:27:53.

1990s. It was almost impossible to find a Portuguese family with no

:27:54.:27:56.

problems in connection with drugs. We decided to try a new approach. We

:27:57.:28:06.

are happy. 15, 16 years later we can look back and say we have a lot of

:28:07.:28:13.

improvement in the consequences of drug use in Portugal. Chatting to

:28:14.:28:19.

people in Lisbon it is clear and most seem to think the government

:28:20.:28:24.

has got it right when it comes to the more liberal, medical approach

:28:25.:28:29.

to drugs. But, as with these things, not everyone agrees. We are heading

:28:30.:28:33.

out of the city to meet a guy who runs his own drugs clinic. The

:28:34.:28:38.

interesting thing about him, he thinks it's gone a little bit too

:28:39.:28:46.

far. Carlos, nice to meet you. Carlos has been working to help

:28:47.:28:52.

users for over 30 years and runs a residential rehab centre. What is it

:28:53.:28:56.

about the Portuguese system you think has overstepped the mark? We

:28:57.:29:04.

need more restrictive measures because it is too easy for

:29:05.:29:10.

youngsters to get strokes. As we walked around, we have seen clearly

:29:11.:29:14.

people dealing in the streets in certain areas. That is because in

:29:15.:29:20.

your mind they are allowed to carry quite a lot of drugs, so it is an

:29:21.:29:25.

easy cover, you can say it is for me. That is the main problem. I must

:29:26.:29:34.

clarify, I am in favour of decriminalisation. I am not against

:29:35.:29:41.

it. The real problem is the business that is behind all of this movement.

:29:42.:29:47.

Clients, they want to have a good time when they start consuming

:29:48.:29:52.

drugs, but afterwards, the good time becomes a nightmare. 23-year-old

:29:53.:29:56.

Andreas showed me around the centre. He has been here six months. At

:29:57.:30:04.

first I had problems with hashish, cannabis. They were the first, then

:30:05.:30:09.

I started going to parties and started to take amphetamines and

:30:10.:30:17.

later when I was 16, 17, I started cocaine and that was bad for me, I'd

:30:18.:30:22.

destroyed my life with that. A common path that people mention. It

:30:23.:30:27.

is controversial, the idea of a gateway and you start with cannabis

:30:28.:30:32.

and go on to other drugs. Do you see a link between cannabis use and your

:30:33.:30:34.

later use in other drugs? Yes, because we get used to the

:30:35.:30:45.

drugs and then they seemed to stop working and we need something

:30:46.:30:52.

harder. How have drugs, specifically cannabis and other psychedelic drugs

:30:53.:30:57.

affected your mental health? Cannabis has THC and psychotropics

:30:58.:31:06.

that it really busts your head. I started having psychotic thoughts

:31:07.:31:10.

and I ended in the hospital because I heard noises in my head and that

:31:11.:31:16.

was very bad. When I walk in the streets I have always the feeling

:31:17.:31:19.

that someone is stalking me and I need to hide and run. Then here I

:31:20.:31:29.

started to take the right pills and medication to heal myself and it is

:31:30.:31:33.

working and I am grateful to that. While possession of drugs is not a

:31:34.:31:38.

crime in Portugal, users caught with small amounts of substances could be

:31:39.:31:45.

sent to a hearing to assess their drug problem. This is the waiting

:31:46.:31:53.

room. These are the rooms where we have the preliminary interview

:31:54.:31:56.

before the hearing stage. This is the room where we are having their

:31:57.:32:03.

hearing now. Ricardo has been given an appointment after being caught

:32:04.:32:06.

with a few joints at a music festival. He has agreed to let us

:32:07.:32:12.

record his hearing. I heard the word hashish. He was caught with some

:32:13.:32:17.

cannabis? He was caught with a small amount of power sheesh, a cannabis

:32:18.:32:29.

derivative. For a offence we have a suspended period of three months and

:32:30.:32:32.

if he's not caught in that period we will close it. After the hearing I'm

:32:33.:32:42.

keen to have a chat with Ricardo to see what he thinks of the dissuasion

:32:43.:32:48.

caught. We will not film your face. Do you think this process of

:32:49.:32:53.

chatting with a psychologist and a drug drug worker has helped to? For

:32:54.:33:01.

now I will stop, I don't need it. And the systems important goal, I

:33:02.:33:08.

think it is the best. -- and the system in Portugal. That was

:33:09.:33:17.

fascinating and quite an experience. Everything about this is weird. The

:33:18.:33:23.

building, not a court in the sense that you would know back home. The

:33:24.:33:28.

whole experience was very relaxed, very informal and we saw a guy going

:33:29.:33:32.

through that case and at the end of it saying I will not smoke weed

:33:33.:33:37.

again. Surely, for the authorities here, that is a success in their

:33:38.:33:43.

system? So two very different ways of

:33:44.:33:46.

dealing with the legalisation of cannabis there. We have been getting

:33:47.:33:49.

a huge reaction online and on texts as well. Keep them coming, 81199 is

:33:50.:33:55.

the text number. Tweet at BBC Newsbeat. Make sure you give us your

:33:56.:34:01.

name when we read out your messages. Opinion is divided. We have had

:34:02.:34:06.

hundreds of texts. Tom in Tamworth says he thinks the government goes

:34:07.:34:10.

over the top when it comes to cannabis stroke weed. It can help a

:34:11.:34:17.

lot of people of America have shown. Another person said they were

:34:18.:34:20.

introduced cannabis and ended up being sectioned. His personal

:34:21.:34:26.

experience is cannabis is dangerous when it is used recreationally. It

:34:27.:34:31.

is obviously split. What can we learn from Europe. You have been to

:34:32.:34:38.

Amsterdam? I'm a student at Loughborough University. I went to

:34:39.:34:42.

Amsterdam and had a really crazy trip. I was there with a few friends

:34:43.:34:46.

and we were enjoying ourselves, going a bit over the top but what I

:34:47.:34:52.

learned literally if it is about understanding what you use. Like you

:34:53.:34:56.

can go over the top drinking your first time, you can go over the top

:34:57.:35:05.

smoking. I feel at times people like to use the negative things about

:35:06.:35:10.

marijuana and cannabis and saying he is having a trip, he must be really

:35:11.:35:15.

bad but we see drunk people out every weekend. But aren't you

:35:16.:35:20.

worried that if it is legalised it can be regulated but if you are

:35:21.:35:24.

buying stuff in Amsterdam legitimately and you had a bad trip,

:35:25.:35:29.

doesn't that worry you? Not really. Mainly because I am on holiday!

:35:30.:35:35.

LAUGHTER To be honest, I am on holiday. It

:35:36.:35:41.

was worrying. Tell us what happened. I was on a tram. I was thinking what

:35:42.:35:54.

is going on? Everyone is speaking Dutch, what is going on? And you

:35:55.:35:59.

want to feel like that on holiday? No, but the next day you learn from

:36:00.:36:04.

it. It is a learning experience for me that day in the sense of when you

:36:05.:36:08.

don't understand something, that is what can happen. I'm coming from a

:36:09.:36:12.

background in the UK where it is pushed away, no one speaks about it

:36:13.:36:16.

and I have gone abroad and it has happened. I did not see any of the

:36:17.:36:23.

locals, that happening to them, they are used to it, it is part of the

:36:24.:36:27.

culture. I come from a culture here when you feel bad speaking about

:36:28.:36:31.

cannabis. It was four years ago, I was about 18 years old. I was a

:36:32.:36:38.

younger man and not very confident. I think we need to open up the

:36:39.:36:42.

culture because at the end of the day, if we continue to treat people

:36:43.:36:45.

like criminals for doing something which 2 million people in the UK do,

:36:46.:36:51.

is that 2 million criminals? Good question. At the moment, yes. Rick,

:36:52.:36:59.

what is your response to Yinka's trip in Amsterdam? I think he makes

:37:00.:37:02.

some really good points, particularly about the openness to

:37:03.:37:08.

substances. Our organisation Addaction is to keep people safe and

:37:09.:37:13.

in the wider community. Sometimes we get some slightly strange looks when

:37:14.:37:17.

we talk about openly discussing the fact that people will use substances

:37:18.:37:22.

and people might enjoy their experiences. Obviously, a lot of

:37:23.:37:26.

people may be do not have positive experiences as well. If we are

:37:27.:37:31.

effectively stopped from having open discussions around these things in

:37:32.:37:36.

schools, and I am not talking necessarily about substance specific

:37:37.:37:39.

information about THC and CBD. You will not go in and do an assembly

:37:40.:37:44.

about these things: that would be irresponsible, but we need to have a

:37:45.:37:48.

chat earlier discussions about decision-making and risky

:37:49.:37:51.

behaviours. We need to support young people to make positive choices and

:37:52.:37:54.

to speak to young people who can guide them. We have had Sony

:37:55.:38:00.

cutbacks around pastoral services and youth services. -- we have had

:38:01.:38:03.

so many cutbacks. And on the point of the video, if you take Portugal

:38:04.:38:09.

and decriminalisation, there has not been a massive rise in drug use.

:38:10.:38:13.

There has been a big deep crease in some associated health problems.

:38:14.:38:16.

They have been able to reallocate funds which would have gone to the

:38:17.:38:21.

justice system into health and education. If we can do that in this

:38:22.:38:24.

country and have open debates like we are having here, that will surely

:38:25.:38:29.

be a much better way of moving forward? I want to bring in George

:38:30.:38:35.

into the discussion. What do you do? We are drug policy ink tank and we

:38:36.:38:41.

look at drug issues in particular cannabis. What are the issues are

:38:42.:38:47.

buying cannabis legally? This is the interesting thing. I think it is

:38:48.:38:53.

saddening how little the debate has moved on in the UK. Those are the

:38:54.:38:59.

questions we should be asking. Instead we have people talking about

:39:00.:39:04.

the Gateway issue. Just to be clear it is not true. So if you start

:39:05.:39:09.

smoking cannabis it will lead to other things? It is proven beyond

:39:10.:39:13.

any reasonable doubt that cannabis use at a young age is not a reliable

:39:14.:39:19.

indicator of later life problematic use with so-called hard drugs.

:39:20.:39:27.

Proven by who? There is extensive research. I will show you afterwards

:39:28.:39:30.

but it would be boring to go through. The issue indicator of

:39:31.:39:37.

whether someone would develop more problematic drug use in later life

:39:38.:39:42.

is their family and social circumstances. Heroin is a

:39:43.:39:45.

painkiller. People use it to treat trauma and severe pain. We need to

:39:46.:39:49.

look at the problems around druggies which are issues around addiction

:39:50.:39:56.

which stem from other wider societal use -- problems around druggies.

:39:57.:40:01.

Cannabis does not lead you down a dark path into Herod then -- heroin

:40:02.:40:11.

use. How would it work to legalise cannabis? Could work in a number of

:40:12.:40:15.

ways. In the Netherlands they have not change the law but they allow

:40:16.:40:19.

decriminalisation which allows some people being able to sell it. I

:40:20.:40:25.

think that is unsatisfactory. You do not have product testing which means

:40:26.:40:29.

you do not have pesticides in there. You cannot control potency to

:40:30.:40:33.

encourage people to use safer products. I think a better option is

:40:34.:40:37.

what they are doing in Canada which is to set up a properly regulated

:40:38.:40:43.

industry with extensive testing and safety, public messaging and safety

:40:44.:40:47.

and awareness, tax revenues going to all sorts of things, whereby you can

:40:48.:40:54.

slowly look at what products are acceptable, moving people towards

:40:55.:40:57.

products which do not have as many carcinogens as smoking, moving

:40:58.:41:02.

people towards eating like in the Brighton cannabis club. There are

:41:03.:41:06.

ways cannabis can be used which are safer than other ways. At the moment

:41:07.:41:11.

it is a choice between alcohol and substance will stop Jim, you went to

:41:12.:41:17.

Portugal, what was it like? Are there problems? There is a danger of

:41:18.:41:24.

creating a rose tinted view of the Portuguese system. We spent some

:41:25.:41:27.

time in a fairly rough part of the city and there were problems with

:41:28.:41:32.

heroin addicts. There was a serious problem of entrenched drug use is

:41:33.:41:35.

still existing bearing the idea that this money will be refunded to help

:41:36.:41:40.

people is not true. There are a lot of people in the country who need

:41:41.:41:44.

help for drug problems and they are not getting it. The other thing

:41:45.:41:49.

which is stark and shocking is you see a lot of open drug use and open

:41:50.:41:53.

drug dealing. And not just talking about cannabis. We are talking about

:41:54.:41:58.

crack at it in basically the equivalent of Trafalgar Square in

:41:59.:42:02.

London. In Lisbon couple of streets away you have people dealing etc.

:42:03.:42:08.

That is what you need to remember. There are positives to the

:42:09.:42:13.

Portuguese system but there are a definitely negatives. So crack

:42:14.:42:18.

addicts on the street. If you are listening, what do you think? I just

:42:19.:42:24.

want to make the point with regard to Gateway drug use, I just want to

:42:25.:42:29.

mention that it puts you in that environment where you look at this

:42:30.:42:33.

drug and then that one is available because that person is using it. I

:42:34.:42:39.

just want to point out as well millennials are even more

:42:40.:42:41.

health-conscious and care about their bodies more than probably past

:42:42.:42:47.

generations so maybe they are more interested in vegetables than grass

:42:48.:42:51.

at this stage. I see a lot of people who are steroid users for example

:42:52.:42:55.

who come into the pharmacy for needles. There is a whole

:42:56.:42:58.

conversation around that. Is it going to open up a whole new area of

:42:59.:43:06.

public health we have to fund went there have already been cuts in

:43:07.:43:08.

sexual health and also the methadone and needle exchange area. Can you

:43:09.:43:14.

pass your microphone to Hannah? I am an award. I had a similar experience

:43:15.:43:19.

in Amsterdam. I did not take any weed myself that it completely

:43:20.:43:23.

changed my opinion. The culture shock first of all because it was so

:43:24.:43:29.

readily available. What was your thoughts first of all? I never

:43:30.:43:31.

wanted to try it because I was scared of it but going to a place

:43:32.:43:36.

where it was so available, it is so interesting. I think now if I was

:43:37.:43:39.

going to try it I would rather have that than a cigarette because

:43:40.:43:43.

cigarettes are one of the biggest killers in our society. It is so

:43:44.:43:52.

much more dangerous to have a cigarette and it is hypocritical to

:43:53.:43:54.

have legalised cigarettes and not cannabis which is more harmful.

:43:55.:43:58.

Touching on the cigarettes which are important points, I think cigarettes

:43:59.:44:02.

are also leading to psychosis because people who are smoking skunk

:44:03.:44:06.

with high levels of THC, they are mixing up with tobacco and what they

:44:07.:44:13.

are doing is they are smoking over the amount of skunk they should be

:44:14.:44:20.

smoking because they are addicted to the cigarette and not the skunk.

:44:21.:44:25.

They are putting tobacco in skunk and they keep making the skunk and

:44:26.:44:28.

that is where the problem comes in. At this stage we are also denied all

:44:29.:44:36.

talking that smoking cannabis and it is a class B drug addict carries a

:44:37.:44:41.

five-year prison sentence for possession and up to 14 years for

:44:42.:44:45.

supply and production. Jim, how is it looking online? We have Josh from

:44:46.:44:53.

Wiltshire. He says cannabis should be legalised. It does much more good

:44:54.:44:58.

than bad. Just compare it to alcohol. It can also do more for the

:44:59.:45:03.

economy and take money away from the street gangs and dealers. The

:45:04.:45:07.

counterargument is that what message are you giving to our children is

:45:08.:45:12.

that it is addictive, harmful to mental health and it absolutely

:45:13.:45:15.

stinks. Drugs have no place in our society and it should be abolished

:45:16.:45:17.

with stiffer penalties. What is your response? As somebody

:45:18.:45:29.

who goes all night drinking alcohol smells a lot, as well. There is a

:45:30.:45:35.

problem again, organic cannabis does not smell like skunk. It is about

:45:36.:45:42.

educating people on what's different cannabis there is and what

:45:43.:45:47.

difference skunk and how to use it. I want to pick up on the point about

:45:48.:45:52.

the gateway and access ability of other drugs. That is what we have

:45:53.:45:56.

with the black market. You can go to a dealer and get cannabis and you

:45:57.:46:01.

can get other drugs and did a regulated market that would be

:46:02.:46:04.

controlled. At the moment young people do not need IDE to go to a

:46:05.:46:09.

dealer. Jim said he saw people using crack on the streets of Portugal

:46:10.:46:13.

where drugs are decriminalise. That is a wider issue but we should talk

:46:14.:46:19.

about drugs consumption rooms. What about dissuasion committees, the

:46:20.:46:23.

model in Portugal, would you back it? They are useful, distinguishing

:46:24.:46:29.

between recreational use and if there is problematic use that

:46:30.:46:32.

requires intervention, there is the availability of that. This is

:46:33.:46:38.

Newsbeat debates live on radio one and the BBC News Channel. The

:46:39.:46:43.

question, should cannabis be legal in the UK? Jim, you have talked

:46:44.:46:49.

about people commenting online. Reaction is split. It is difficult

:46:50.:46:56.

to talk about cannabis. Without talking about so-called skunk in

:46:57.:47:01.

particular. What can you tell us? A word a lot of people pro-cannabis in

:47:02.:47:06.

this room will not like. I imagine people do not like the word skunk.

:47:07.:47:13.

Just to do a quick poll. A quick response. It is incorrectly used. I

:47:14.:47:20.

explained who here, the government term of skunk is high THC cannabis

:47:21.:47:28.

but that is also what the medical Dutch cannabis is. What we are going

:47:29.:47:33.

to talk about now, call it what you Will it is high post and -- high

:47:34.:47:41.

potency. There is a link between people susceptible to mental-health

:47:42.:47:46.

problems at high levels of THC whether science is focusing and

:47:47.:47:49.

where the debate is focusing. If people have just tuned in, ABC, THC,

:47:50.:47:57.

the THC is the compound in cannabis that makes you high, and CBD is the

:47:58.:48:03.

bit that acts as anti-psychosis. It is a buffer. There is a lot of

:48:04.:48:07.

research that needs to be done on the buffering. But we need to focus

:48:08.:48:17.

on the high-level THC. Jim went to meet a father who has been directly

:48:18.:48:22.

affected by high strength cannabis. We noticed there was something that

:48:23.:48:26.

was becoming strange with Rupert a year ago. He was diagnosed with drug

:48:27.:48:37.

induced psychosis. He was sectioned. What back row day in January, he

:48:38.:48:45.

said to his mother that is the voices were getting stronger in his

:48:46.:48:49.

head and he was scared. Two days later, he went out in the evening.

:48:50.:48:59.

And he killed himself. Afterwards, I spoke to the doctors. Somebody said

:49:00.:49:05.

in an offhand way, that this is yet another casualty of skunk. I said,

:49:06.:49:13.

is that just... Cannabis must have changed. He said it is not really

:49:14.:49:18.

cannabis you might have known, with the greatest respect, 40 years ago,

:49:19.:49:23.

when you might have experimented. He said this is different stuff. I

:49:24.:49:27.

looked it up on the internet. I was shocked to discover how strong this

:49:28.:49:35.

variant of cannabis is. And as such, it is my belief that the way to

:49:36.:49:43.

tackle skunk is to legalise the old-fashioned cannabis, so it has

:49:44.:49:51.

the right balance of THC with CBD, and it has only a certain level of

:49:52.:49:58.

potency. Lots of people listening will find it strange that a drug you

:49:59.:50:03.

say killed your son, you are campaigning to legalise. I think

:50:04.:50:09.

skunk has been labelled as cannabis, but it is not really. It is a

:50:10.:50:16.

Frankenstein variant. Some would argue that your son may have had

:50:17.:50:20.

underlying mental health issues and that is what led to him killing

:50:21.:50:23.

himself and not the drug. Indeed, that has been put to me. I received

:50:24.:50:32.

letters from people who read about Rupert's death. Come I read one? I

:50:33.:50:38.

am so sad to read about the loss of your son Rupert. There are so many

:50:39.:50:44.

parallels with the death of my son, who also had a history of mental

:50:45.:50:48.

illness in the most part by smoking cannabis and skunk. Lord Monson has

:50:49.:50:55.

received many letters containing stories similar to Rupert's. As we

:50:56.:51:00.

go through them, his friend Louise arrives. She is a drug worker in

:51:01.:51:04.

London and they have worked together on an approach to high potency

:51:05.:51:09.

cannabis. You work with people who use different drugs. How does it

:51:10.:51:14.

compare with someone who has a skunk problem? This will not be a popular

:51:15.:51:20.

answer but I would say give me a room full of heroin addicts than

:51:21.:51:24.

skunk addicts. If I think of my own sons, I remember saying to my

:51:25.:51:29.

eldest, I would prefer you to take heroin than smoke skunk. He said,

:51:30.:51:34.

you cannot say that! He does not work with the impact. Heroin and

:51:35.:51:40.

crack, it does what it says on the tin. It is physical, emotional,

:51:41.:51:47.

spiritual. Whereas skunk it is the psychotic aspect. Somebody has to

:51:48.:51:52.

wake up and say there will be a generation of kids with severe

:51:53.:51:58.

mental health issues, and with Nicklas's case, kids dying, and it

:51:59.:52:03.

will not be a normal OD from heroin, it will be from suicide because they

:52:04.:52:08.

cannot deal with the voices. It is the voices I work with. You say you

:52:09.:52:15.

have had this correspondence with the Prime Minister and letters going

:52:16.:52:20.

backwards and forwards. Recently in the latest government drugs

:52:21.:52:23.

strategy, decriminalisation was mentioned briefly and dismissed as

:52:24.:52:27.

not having enough evidence. I think the Liberal Democrats have embraced

:52:28.:52:35.

my argument and I know there are many people in the Conservative

:52:36.:52:38.

Party whom beforehand you would never have expected to embrace

:52:39.:52:48.

counterintuitive initiatives such as the one I am suggesting. I think

:52:49.:52:51.

there could be in the next five years, I hope, a change of heart

:52:52.:52:55.

from the government, at least a green paper, I should imagine. Lord

:52:56.:53:00.

Monson talking about his son's problems with cannabis and how he

:53:01.:53:04.

wants to change the law. Does what you just heard scare you? Zoe

:53:05.:53:13.

McLeod. I have had this with one of my extended family members who went

:53:14.:53:19.

into psychosis and they blame dit upon his drug-taking. I think what

:53:20.:53:23.

happened is terrible and what happened to my family member was

:53:24.:53:28.

terrible, but I think fully criminalising because of it will not

:53:29.:53:33.

do any good. You cannot stop people taking it, it is easy to get hold.

:53:34.:53:40.

You need a phone number ?10. I think the most important thing is

:53:41.:53:46.

education. And if we have this one we could have one that has a good

:53:47.:53:51.

level of CBD. I think you are saying you are putting out a message to

:53:52.:53:55.

younger kids it is almost harmless and OK to take and it is important

:53:56.:54:00.

to establish the adolescent mind is still developing and is more

:54:01.:54:04.

susceptible. Official statistics show people under the age of 15 who

:54:05.:54:11.

take cannabis are four times more likely to develop psychosis later in

:54:12.:54:15.

life and statistics show with cannabis usage in adolescence, you

:54:16.:54:20.

are more likely to get psychosis. There are more secondary effects of

:54:21.:54:28.

cannabis intake, for example, in Colorado, where they legalise

:54:29.:54:35.

marijuana, the number of car accidents which were due to drivers

:54:36.:54:38.

being under the influence of marijuana actually increased

:54:39.:54:43.

massively. You are saying you do not think it is true. We do not have

:54:44.:54:49.

long left. Chamakh I will come to you but before we do we are talking

:54:50.:54:56.

about psychosis. It is an acute mental health disorder where you

:54:57.:55:00.

lose connection with reality and it is a scary situation where the

:55:01.:55:07.

victim does not realise they are unwell and they can do dangerous

:55:08.:55:11.

things when they are unwell like this. Jammer, you have looked a high

:55:12.:55:16.

potency cannabis. Were you surprised by what you found? What I found was

:55:17.:55:26.

the level of THC and CBD in the skunk nowadays, in the wide range of

:55:27.:55:31.

skunk you are getting, are imbalanced. I can tell you 20 years

:55:32.:55:41.

ago, when people were smoking hashish, and normal weed grown in

:55:42.:55:45.

natural light, we did not have this issue, it did not exist. You can see

:55:46.:55:51.

the change in the skunk sold on the street and in the youth and how much

:55:52.:55:59.

psychosis we have in England. Working in the music industry, what

:56:00.:56:02.

effect do you think high potency cannabis has on artists? High

:56:03.:56:11.

potency cannabis is also medicated cannabis as the fellow there was

:56:12.:56:16.

saying, but that is in a regulated environments, where you are taught

:56:17.:56:22.

how to use it. Higher THC skunk on the street, given to just a kid who

:56:23.:56:27.

does not know what is inside it, smoking it with a cigarette, that is

:56:28.:56:31.

smoking excessive amounts of skunk because they are addicted to

:56:32.:56:36.

cigarettes. What about it boosting creativity? That is another debate.

:56:37.:56:41.

Some people smoke and stop smoking and say it did not make a difference

:56:42.:56:48.

in their music. There is a long history of creating with cannabis.

:56:49.:56:52.

There is a lot of great musicians that have used cannabis and created,

:56:53.:56:57.

but that is not the issue. The issue is people are getting in trouble

:56:58.:57:02.

with street skunk and non-regulated skunk. Greg, you have smoked high

:57:03.:57:07.

potency cannabis. Has it ever had the effect is Lord Monson was

:57:08.:57:12.

talking about? Absolutely not. I have been on prescribed steroids and

:57:13.:57:17.

opiates and I have had those reactions from those drugs. Maybe

:57:18.:57:21.

they are not for everyone, either. If we look at the debate properly

:57:22.:57:26.

and if we can regulate cannabis it takes it off the street and makes

:57:27.:57:29.

the availability to vulnerable people more unlikely to happen.

:57:30.:57:37.

Cannabis social clubs want to regulate cannabis and make it age

:57:38.:57:44.

regulated. I know you say you are impartial, but what are your

:57:45.:57:48.

concerns when it comes to high potency cannabis and mental health?

:57:49.:57:54.

From my experience in south London I have seen devastation in vulnerable

:57:55.:58:00.

families. I used to work in psychiatry, Denmark Hill, psychosis

:58:01.:58:04.

is devastating for the individual and the families. It has

:58:05.:58:08.

ramifications for the future. I would be worried. In simple terms,

:58:09.:58:15.

the younger you are, the more you use, the stronger the strain, the

:58:16.:58:19.

bigger the risk. If people are using we advise them to get support from

:58:20.:58:25.

GPs, local drug service. We would definitely advise delayed use will

:58:26.:58:33.

stop if people are talking about THC, that is talking about clinical

:58:34.:58:37.

settings and the street stuff is not that in general. If anyone is

:58:38.:58:44.

struggling with drug use, community pharmacies are on the high street,

:58:45.:58:48.

available for everyone with no judgment. Visit us for support.

:58:49.:58:54.

Thank you for taking part. If you are affected by any issues covered

:58:55.:58:59.

tonight, there are details of organisations offering information

:59:00.:59:03.

and support with addiction available at the BBC website action mind. And

:59:04.:59:15.

you can call any time and we have tweeted a link to BBC advice on

:59:16.:59:19.

cannabis. You can keep the conversation going online and watch

:59:20.:59:29.

Cannabis: Time For A Change on BBC I play. Thanks for watching.

:59:30.:59:32.

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