09/06/2011 Newsnight Scotland

Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, after a week of controversy, Nick

Clegg meets Alex Salmond and offers him a couple of hundred million

pounds. The Secretary of State tells this programme he still

thinks there should be two referendums for Scotland to become

independent. And the controversial architect of

Glasgow's new transport museum visits her creation and talks of

ships, space and scepticism. After a week of controversy,

something actually happens. Nick Clegg visited Edinburgh today and

told Alex Salmond he could borrow �200 million this year to help

build a new Forth Road Bridge. It will be the first and the Scottish

government has been allowed to run up dead. Meanwhile, the Secretary

of State of Scotland has told his programme he sticks by his view

that there would need to be two referendums for Scotland to become

independent. # Food, glorious food.

Alex Salmond does not play the role of supplicant well, and there's not

much of the starving Oliver about him. He went to London with his

subservient status well sheltered, but he cannot hide the facts. Even

with a substantial mandate in his pocket, he has to beg for

concessions. This week, he asked the Prime Minister, please, sir,

can I have some more... Borrowing rights, up to �5 billion? And

powers over the Crown Estate, corporation tax, excise duty,

broadcasting and a bigger say in Europe? And he came away empty

handed. He had a second go when Nick Clegg came to Edinburgh, and

he did drop a little something in the SNP poll. We want to get going

as quickly as possible. People want to see this new Forth Bridge being

built as quickly as possible. That is why we are saying that instead

of waiting for the full borrowing powers in several years' time,

let's find a way of getting access to the money earlier on this year

so that we can create the jobs and build the bridge that people want

to see. How much? We will publish the details in the coming days and

weeks, but of course it has to be on a sufficient scale to get big

projects like the new Forth Bridge up and running. Nick Clegg,

speaking to Raymond Buchanan. It is a month since the Holyrood election,

and the manoeuvring us are under way. London cannot reject Mr

Salmond's demands out of hand, for fear of provoking the Scots. Nor

can they caved in to the early and face humiliation, not least at the

hands of their own backbenchers. But neither can Mr Salmond press

too hard and be left humbled by failure to deliver, although he

will not want all his wish-list ticked off, because that might

begin to satisfy the Scots. So each side is playing a longer game. Mr

Salmond will build up the case for the referendum and not commit to

too much detail. That can be contradicted and disparaged. He is

bolstered by today's Herald opinion poll, putting support for

independence up six points at 37%, although that is where it stood in

2009. Then, Mr Salmond is undoubtedly the leader for

independence. But who is the leader against? Logically, it would be

either the Secretary of State for Scotland, or he would be a co-

leader. It has become a matter of incontrovertible fact that Michael

Moore is leader only of the tomb and Scotland Office team. I met the

Secretary of State for Scotland yesterday, and I am meeting him

again today. Now, this is part of minute two meeting strategy. If I

do not get the answer I want in the first meeting, I will organise

another one! It will need Serpentine negotiation to produce a

united unionist front, and almost certainly a many-headed leadership.

And in what could become a highly new ones to debate, there is

another factor. The Labour- supporting Daily Record is shedding

half its journalists. It stuck doggedly to the party line

throughout the election. Willetts anti-nationalist message now be

diluted? The only thing we can be sure of is that Mr Salmond will not

stop asking. The Secretary of State for Scotland,

Michael Moore, has been busy, but earlier this evening he came into

our Selkirk studio. I asked him to outline his decision to allow the

Scottish government to borrow money this year. We have responded to the

representations we had from the committee in the last Scottish

Parliament and from the Scottish government that they would like to

get access to finance before the borrowing powers are introduced as

set out in the bill. We had already said we would do that a couple of

years ahead of the formal powers being available in 2015. But

recognising that this that Government wants to get on with

creating the new Forth crossing, we agreed to bring forward that force

and -- facility to this year. the borrowing comes from where?

This sounds like a local authority, the Scottish government? We will

announce the details over the course of the next week. We will be

making formal presentations to Parliament. But this will enable us

to ensure that the Scottish government gets another tool to add

to the many ways it can help boost Scotland's economy. We are in

tricky economic times and this is an important project. We are

pleased that we can help get at going forward by bringing the money

forward and getting the work under way. And what about Alex Salmond's

demand that the eventual amount he should be able to borrow should be

increased to �5 billion? details of how much we will be

doing, we will announce in due course. We have said to the First

Minister that the issue for the country as a whole is the tight

economic situation we are in and the borrowing limits we have had to

set for the UK as a whole. We are not able simply to increase the

amounts in the way he and others have requested. But in the command

paper and all the public announcements previously, we have

said that we are putting a base amount into the legislation. It is

a flaw which may vary in the future, but which will never be below the

�2.2 billion we have announced. you are saying you will not

increase to the �5 billion at the moment that Alex Salmond wants

because you believe the economic situation will not allow you to,

but sometime in the future, when the economy recovers, that amount

might be increased? That has been clear since the outset. I am sure I

will repeat that again in the Commons in the next couple of weeks.

We have to make sure we live within what we can afford. What is your

current position on how many referendums there should be? Gordon,

I do not think we should be having a referendum at all, because I want

to see Scotland continue to be part of the UK. I have said that if we

get the First Minister coming forward with his proposals for a

referendum, I and my colleagues will campaign to ensure that

Scotland stays within the UK. We have a good case for that. The

First Minister has not set out what kind of independence he wants or

what the costs will be. We are already seeing the concerns of

businesses and other groups about the uncertainty this is creating.

All the other questions are, frankly, hypothetical. The

important thing at the moment is to ensure that we get new powers to

the Scottish parliament, that we get support to the Scottish economy.

But as you know, you said on Monday that if the Scottish people voted

in an advisory referendum organised by the Scottish government for

independence, there would have to be a second referendum before

Scotland could be independent. Is that still your opinion, which you

clearly expressed on Monday? What I clearly expressed on Monday was the

fact that I do not want to see the uncertainty of independence

cladding the need for us to get over the immediate hurdles of the

economy and to ensure we get the Scotland Bill through. We can put

about that in a minute, but let me read to you what you said. You said

"if we have an advisory referendum set up by the Scottish government,

there is a strong likelihood, and this certainly my personal view

that you would need a second referendum on the formalities of

agreeing what is being sorted out by the Government's". Is that still

your view? You will notice the conditionality I put into that,

Gordon. Others say that is a fair and -- otherwise, that is a fair

representation. I stand by that, but I want to be clear that as a

government and as an individual, I am concerned first and foremost

about the economy of Scotland for a With respect, the rest of this is

hypothetical. It is a legitimate debate, but it is not what as

Secretary of State for Scotland or the government as a whole is

focused on. It was you who said it, The problem is, David Cameron's

point of view seems to be opposite two years. Not at all. He and the

Deputy Prime Minister and others have accentuated what I have been

saying that. We're talking about a hypothetical situation that is

dependent on the First Minister coming forward with their proposals

for an independent referendums. We do not know what form the question

will take. We do not know what costs are associated with it. As an

Nick Clegg was saying in Edinburgh today, there is no middle way here.

We are talking about Scotland prospering within the United

Kingdom or Scotland clouded by uncertainty and the disruption

associated with independence. I want Scotland to continue within

the United Kingdom and I am confident it will. You said you

were being very clear, I am not clear at all what you are saying

it's. You seem to be saying you are still of the view that should

people vote in a referendum there would have to be another referendum.

You seem to be telling us that view is also shared by the Prime

Minister. Is that right? I am not putting words into anyone else's

mouth. I am saying that from what we have discussed this week...

what are you saying? A I have to repeat myself. You seem to want to

return to one particular aspect of this. For I am asking your question

and waiting for an answer and not getting it. Perhaps it is because

you're not quite liking the answer I am giving you. You can give me

any answer you like. The point here is that on that Monday, responding

to a question about how this might pan out, I said there was a

likelihood of a second referendums. And the key thing is that I do not

think there should be a referendum at all. Scotland's place should be

to stay within the United Kingdom. I am absolutely on board with all

my colleagues and we're absolutely focused, I am happy to repeat this

yet again. We are focused on getting the Scotland Bill through

and we are focused on getting Scotland's economy on a firm track.

That has got to be the common agenda, not just for us, as the UK

Government but for the Scottish government as well. Just to be

clear, are you, Michael Moore, still of the view there would need

to be two referendums on independence? Yes, I am still of

that opinion, right? I have not changed the opinion I have voiced.

I am putting it in a broader context. In a broader concept --

context of a constitutional debate which is for the First Minister to

bring forward his referendums. We need to see what it is about. We

need to see how he proposes to answer the fundamental questions

about the cost of independence and address the increasing economic

uncertainties. On this business about questions. There has been

some suggestion if the British Government have thought that the

nationalists were in some way obfuscating by having a multi-

choice referendum that you might be tempted to organise the referendum

yourself. Is that the case or speculation? There has been a lot

of speculation this week. The questions are for the First

Minister. We have said he needs to clarify what he wants to do. So it

is up to him and you would not organise one yourself? We have said

it is up to Alex Salmond to bring for the referendum. For us it is a

complete distraction, it is not what people across Scotland want to

see us do. They want us to sort out the economy, they want to see new

powers for the Scottish Parliament so we get new economic

responsibility and financial accountability. That is what the

Scotland Bill is about. We are running out of times. Award last

year procedural questions. There had been reports the prime Minister

it is setting up a Cabinet committee on this issue and you're

going to be a member of it, is that true? At the proper time, the Prime

Minister will announce how we intend to take forward issues to do

with all future constitutional issues and the United Kingdom. If I

may repeat myself, that is a matter for the Prime Minister. At the

appropriate time, he announces Cabinet committees on whatever

subject he wishes to see them focused. For us, our focus is the

economy. That is what Nick Clegg's announcements were about two days.

That is what the Bill is about, insuring we give Scotland the

powers and responsibilities that will help us be more accountable in

Now, she is one of the biggest names in Architecture, yet it has

taken the Iraq designer more than 30 years to see the completion of

her first major public work on British soil. It is winning acclaim

for its interior. Today, she took a look around for herself with our

Arts Correspondent. As you can see from the window there, there are a

major shipyards. It Ben's like a river. It is the idea of the

ability of the structure to make this end. How much of that did you

draw in, what happened here before on the cloud? The shipyards, the

steamers, the engines, a lot of these things were made here. They

were shipped across the world. And they were brought back to be

exhibited here. So the idea of this place being a landmark in that

sense was very much part of the story. How much of a challenge was

the design of a building which did not have pillars. We tried not to

have the structure come into the space. We had the structure on the

perimeter. It is it really interesting structural engineering

issue and has an impact on the space. The space which it moves

around without obstructions. You can see all of it. You have been

such a well-known name and your buildings have been known to

everyone on the architectural landscape for the last 30 years.

Yet, this is the first big public commission that we have seen in the

UK. It is quite surprising. Why has it taken so long? I do not know.

Also, it building in Scotland, which I think it is great. I think

there was always scepticism for whatever reasons, I do not know

what it is. I think it is difficult sometimes to police themselves in a

space if they have not seen it. In European cities, the idea of

competition, doing things which is unknown to them, is may be more

prevalent. Maybe things are changing. Does it feel like a brick

through to have a very visible presence? -- like a break through.

It is very important. And it is important in this location. It I am

happy to be back and that everyone enjoys the building. Is your work

complete here as far as this building goes? For once you have

designed a building, do you keep an eye on it? I am always curious what

they do with it. But it is their project. It is born, you give it to

them and they have to take care of In very quick look at a moral's

front pages. One referendum, three options. The Herald, revealed the

shocking record of care homes in crisis.

That is it for this week, we will As the showers continued to fade

away overnight it will turn unusually cool for this time of

year. We will start with sunshine in the morning but cloud will

develop quickly. If you heavy showers in the afternoon. Later in

the afternoon we will see some heavy, thundery showers to the east

of the Pennines. Expect disruption if you're heading to the tennis at

Queen's Club. In the south-west of England we will see rain. A few

hours of quite intense rain. North Wales, will see some sunshine.

Across Northern Ireland, a gain some sunshine and a slow-moving

showers. It will not be very warm. Similar temperatures in Scotland

and the best of the sunshine around the coast in the afternoon. In

Devon but only 13 degrees and not getting any warmer on Saturday. --

in Edinburgh. Quite a lot of showers around on Friday, but fewer

showers on Saturday as. Most of the showers on Saturday will occurred

during the morning and during the afternoon we should get more