21/06/2011 Newsnight Scotland

Tonight in Newsnight Scotland, could you be prosecuted for making

the sign of the Cross, or singing Rule Britannia? The government gets

itself into a right bother trying to define itself. How many separate

police forces does Scotland need? Good evening. The Government is

rushing anti-sectarian measures through Parliament in order to get

it onto the statute book before next season. You think that -- you

would think that politicians would know what it was about. But MSPs

are more than a touch confused, as our political Correspondent reports.

At times, the Justice Minister looked a touch frustrated on string

MSPs questions. Roseanna Cunningham has been given a tough job of

eradicating sectarianism. He -- she is rushing north through policies -

- parliament. She was asked some devilish questions. We have the

various acts. There is a sufficiency of powers available for

the enforcement of prosecution of the kinds of conduct that you have

reservations about. I do not know how much longer in Scotland we can

continue to review and discussed and not take any action. People are

criticised. You are damned if you do and damned if you don't. You are

not tackling the issue. You have acknowledged that this is a problem

that this is a problem that has gone on for some time. All of the

written submissions express concern about the speed. Surely it is worth

another month or two to get it right could buy but it would not

just be another month or two. would be halfway through the next

football season before we are in any position to put any of this

into operation. I know as a politician, and I think you know as

a politician, that if the new season picked up where the last

season left off, and we were left with the same sort of scenes being

repeated, politicians would be in front of microphones saying what

have we not acted? You will be familiar with the songs Flower of

Scotland and the British national anthem. Could you see the singing

of any of these songs be an offence under the Act? The play but answer

to that is no, not at all. But we are not going to define what

songs... Because it is a matter of the facts and circumstances of the

case whether it is offensive or not. I have seen hundreds of Celtic fans

in a manner that I can only describe as aggressive, making

signs of the cross, gesticulating across an open area took Rangers

fans. A sign of the Cross is not, in itself, offensive. But I suppose

in certain -- circumstances such as Celtic and Rangers fans beating

each other on a crowd, it could be construed as offensive. The Bill

will finish its passage through Parliament next week. Lawyers are

warning that the minister is acting We did ask for an interview with

Roseanna Cunningham, but she was unavailable. I can speak to

Labour's Jane Kelly, and the SNP Minister and former police officer.

This could be offensive. I think that trivialises what is a very

important issue. The anthems are not in themselves a pensive.

Unacceptable behaviour is offensive. But they could include singing Rule

Britannia are all making the sign of the cross. It is up to the

police officers to act on the information. We have heard from the

Association of Scottish Police Superintendents, and collectively,

they represent 99 % of police officers. They did noises as

filling a gap that exists. It is fair enough making the sign of the

cross because policemen don't mind? That trivialises what isn't

important issue. What is unacceptable is a continuation of

last season. That cannot be allowed to happen, and that is why we have

these two proposals before us. is your problem with this? It is

disappointing that the minister did not come to the studio to light up

that such a confusing performance in front of the committee. The SNP

should be creating consensus to get this through Parliament, and the

minister's performance was poor. She was badly briefed. Let's get to

the hub of the issue. They have created a law which is unspecific.

You can see in certain circumstances where at the Old Firm

match, people making the signs of the cross would be a way of

antagonising Rangers supporters. It is not unreasonable to arrest them?

You do what want a situation where it civilised people who make the

sign of the cross or singing the national anthem should be

prosecuted. The past have -- the problem here is that this

legislation has been rushed through Parliament, and when you rush

legislation through, the definitions are lax. The

consideration of the Bill is not relevant. The detail is not good

for the police or the people. understand why the draft of the

thing in -- why it was drafted in this way. But the point is that in

some odd way, it asks what is a criminal offence, and what I should

be offended by? That is not the case. With some race crime and high

crime, the law is enforced by police officers exercising their

judgment. Criminal intent is to play a part. So seeing Flower of

Scotland and the British metal and foreign is trivialising it. -- the

British national anthem. If we are not going to define what the

definitions are, then under of your act as it is written, seeing the

British national anthem would be a criminal offence. I do not accept

that would be the case. Everything depends on the circumstances. We

have been called on to undertake that legislation. The Association

of Scottish Police Superintendents and the Scottish Police Federation

dealing with the officers. They welcome the legislation as filling

existing gaps. Are you saying that this is nonsense, or are you saying

what? Are you saying this is nonsense? You can understand why

they acted in this way? I am saying that Labour will stand shoulder to

shoulder on the SNP on legislation to tackle this. We have been saying

to the ministers for weeks that we need to provide appropriate

clarification and definition of a sectarian offence. The way they

have drafted this was for legal reasons to avoid giving lists of

things you define as sectarian. That is the attention by that. --

intention behind that. Why are you calling for definitions of what is

a sectarian offence? Because you need appropriate definitions within

the legislation in order that the public, the prosecutors and the

police can take that forward. We have been asking the SNP to do this

for the -- for weeks, and they have not been able to. There are

libertarian objections to this. I can see why they have just -- after

this. You could be guilty of something on the way to a football

match. But then they want to get hold of fans travelling without

tickets. It turns out that on your weight to a football match, you do

not have any intention of attending the football match. The problem

with that is that that can mean any one but the police could decide to

We do not live in a police state. My point is this... The reality is

that sectarianism is not going to be addressed, the scourge that has

existed in this country for centuries, will not be restricted

simply to football. This relates to football and the conduct of fans to

and from matches is very important. The length and breadth of this

country, people are we of the mayhem that is caused. Thank you

both. How many separate police forces

does one small nation need? At the moment we have aid, but the

Government thinks it could save money by cutting the number twos 3,

4, or one. They asked for their it fuse of interested p -- parties.

This document, published today, does not make any conclusions or

recommendations as to how the police force should look in the

future but it does tell us their opinions of a wide range of

interested groups like councils, charities, and the forces

themselves. Those questions were asked which of the three options

they preferred. Option one was a single Scottish police force. This

second option was a regional force model, which would mean reducing

the number of police forces from eight to three or four. The third

option was to keep the current eight police forces, but with

increased collaboration. Of the 219 groups and individuals who

responded, only 22 supported the idea of a single police force. 45

were in favour of the regional model and 59 supported that idea of

the current set-up with increased collaboration. 77 respondents said

they did not have enough information or evidence to make a

decision. Judging by some of the responses, reforming the police

force is going to be more How do you fight crime when police

budgets are being cut? Getting rid of bobbies on the beat is no vote

winner, so the concept of saving money through merging Scotland's

eight a police forces into one is attempting what -- option. It is an

idea the Government is leaning towards. It is seen as the best way

to make the service more consistent, efficient and to introduce

economies of scale. Do police organisations agree? There is no

great enthusiasm for it. Since as a suspected all along would come out

of this, there are mixed views are, they split and you cannot add them

up. So it is clear that the proponents of a single force, there

is not a great momentum. There is no doubt the status quo will have

to change but those against a single force argue it could mean a

less local service. Some forces working in rural areas fear they

will lose services to the central belt. Others fear that more forces,

not less. If you look at their history of the centralising and

restructuring services, it has often ended up in very bureaucratic

and administratively complex situations. If you look at

nationalising industries, we were hardly efficient. All this

structural change will cost money and the savings a single force

claims to provide are yet to be Provan. The measure of back-up

support and the cost of that he is a relatively small and light in

terms of the claims that have been made about the savings that could

be made. Some of the figures mentioned have been quite

implausible. �200 million a year, I do not attach credibility to them.

It is unlikely that Scotland's police forces will remain in a

current form. The idea of a single force has failed to capture

imaginations. That is through the middle ground of a three or four

regional forces could end up being the most palatable option. One of

the recurring themes of this report is and their opinion that reform

cannot be considered on its own. Many of those consulted said it

should be stuck -- part of a wider plan. Many other bodies, like the

Crown Office, have pointed out that any changes to the police force

will have cost implications for them as well. It looks right saving

money could become a lengthy and expensive task.

I am joined by eight Superintendent Niven Rennie and from Aberdeen by

their chief of Grampian Police, Colin McKerracher. Niven Rennie,

you think that this single police is is is quite a good idea, do you

not? We have called for this for a number of years. The drive has been

cost but we felt the current structure has been more accident

and Demy -- design and is is not fit for policing Today.

practical terms, if you're a citizen -- what advantage will you

have from having one police? You will lose local accountability. It

is not obvious what the advantages are. We dispute that you would lose

local accountability. You would have to provide local policing

first. You would look at managing thereafter. It is more equitable

distribution of policing, to make sure every community gets the same

fire arms response and the same support is available and there is a

level playing field. Does it, in any practical way, if you are

trying to catch the criminal gang that might straddle police areas,

is there any advantage to having a national police? That is an

argument in itself. Criminals do not see boundaries, we do. We do

not think there should be boundaries and we should work

together and have the same computer systems. Colin McKerracher, you are

not convinced. I am not convinced at all. To say that the current

structure does not work is a lie. We currently have the most

effective policing that Scotland has seen in the 40 years I have

been in the service. That has been by evolution, by working better in

partnership, by doing the very thing people say we do not do which

is collaborating and using our resources very capably. This notion

of every community needing the same fire arms response, again, it is

very easy to suggest that is not the case, but in fact if you go to

my own force in the North East of Scotland, their need for or some

big is specialists to be there all the time is very rare. I think the

packages we have in place have always allowed officers and

specialist staff to move around the country very freely, from the

Lockerbie bombing, to Glasgow footballing. This notion that

something is broken is wrong. Arguments should be about what is

the vision of policing for the future, rather than an argument

over a number of forces. What about argument, Niven Rennie, that you

believe it would save money? think in the current time, if you

look in -- at Strathclyde Police which takes up half of Scotland,

you should division has a number of... Some areas have less money

than others. We think this is an argument in itself. If you are

looking at cost terms anyway. if it is not one police force, that

is an argument that, is it not, Colin McKerracher, at least in

favour of merging some together? Again, I think there is much made

of this management costs. In Scotland, in terms of Chief

officers, there are less than 40 across the country. If you look at

32 local authorities, the costs in they are much higher. Scotland is a

very diverse country, small but diverse, one size fits all approach

for policing is a real danger for Scotland. I have worked in the

north for many years, I believe that their big force in Strathclyde,

I now think that it area I work in, which is self-contained, the touch

and feel of police in Scotland is very sensitive and keen. This move

to a single force would destroy that. Just give me an example of

that. In what way, if you were a policeman in Aberdeen, are you

supposed to behave differently than if you are one in Edinburgh? I hope

you do not behave differently, but the way the we structure policing

and serve our communities is personalised into the communities

that Yousef. A national police force would not stop that happening.

The danger in al-Arab -- large, single organisation is that

essential by the issue will start. -- centralisation will start. In my

area we have managed to achieve efficiencies. We have a vested in

more police officers. That has helped us to build our police model.

It is being held -- heralded around as sustainable. That is our

decision. I do not think you would get that in a single organisation.

What is wrong with that argument? Of the only sustainable way to

provide policing is to reform. From the survey results there are

different views. This has been kicked about in the public domain

for two years and it has been kicked to read private lake by

police officers for a long time before that. It is time to make a

political decision as to how we go ahead. We will deliver. What about

Colin McKerracher's argument that you do not need this homogeneity.

Some of the forces in the north of Scotland do not need specialist

forces that a national police force would provide. There is no gain.

There is a divergence of opinions. Some people would agree with Colin

McKerracher's opinion. The majority is that we do require a reform and

we do require to move towards a national force. We would hope that

a decision in relation to that the meat as soon as possible. What

about accountability? He said he did not think that was under threat.

Why not? I think you can legislate to make sure there is

accountability and we do not suffer from political interference. We

only have to glance across the Irish Sea... It is accountability

to local services. You can build in local policing boards. The senior

officer locally will be held to account on these boards. It is not

beyond comprehension we could build this sustainable structure. Is it,

Colin McKerracher? Do you worry about accountability? I do. For the

last couple of years we have heard reels beer mongering about police

boards not been able to hold officers to account. The joint

police force we have is a holding us to account. OK, we will have to

leave it there. Thank you. Quick look at tomorrow's front

pages. Starting with the Scotsman. Singing the national anthem could

be illegal. They Independent: Europe braced for it Storm. The

Guardian: defiant over Green is gas targets. Betty has a story about a

bank. Hello. It might be warming up

through the weekend but that is a long way off. It remains cool and

shimmery across the UK. A wide distribution of showers with it few

places staying dry. Some of the showers will be heavy and possibly

thundery. Temperatures will be made to high teens. Wimbledon could be

affected by some downpours. A bit of a breeze and that should help to

move the share was true across many southern parts. It will not rain

all the time. Temperatures are not as high as they should be at this

time of the year. Further north, winds will be lighter which means

that she was could lock up -- last that bit longer. It is a showery

scene across Ireland and the North of Scotland. There will be some dry

spells here. More showers to come across northern areas on Thursday.

They could be quite heavy. The temperatures are disappointingly

low. There will be some dry, bright spells but showers are never too

far away. The main emphasis of showers are on Thursday across