Browse content similar to 08/08/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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On tonight's programme, would churches ever be forced to marry | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
gay couples even if they didn't want to? That's the fear from one | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
prominent politician. Is he right? Why did the Ministry of Defence | :00:18. | :00:25. | |
choose to close Leuchars instead of Lossiemouth? With claims of a | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
backroom deal, one MP is demanding an inquiry. | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
Could a church, which doesn't support same sex relationships, be | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
forced to allow two gay people to get married? That's the prospect | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
the SNP MSP John Mason wants to avoid. He has lodged a | :00:38. | :00:40. | |
controversial motion at Holyrood which has been described as "nasty" | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
and "anti-gay marriage" - those were the views of a party colleague, | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
by the way. Mr Mason's intervention comes ahead of an expected | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
consultation on same sex relationships by the Scottish | :00:49. | :00:55. | |
government. So who is closer to public opinion on this issue - Mr | :00:55. | :01:02. | |
Mason or his critics. Julie Peacock reports. | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
Taking the next step. Civil partnerships for gay couples have | :01:05. | :01:10. | |
been illegal since 2005, but the same cannot be said for same-sex | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
marriages. It is something the Government is looking into, but one | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
MSP has raised concerns that if there is a change in the law, | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
individuals of religious organisations may be legally forced | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
to marry same-sex couples even where it is against their beliefs. | :01:26. | :01:32. | |
It is caused debate among step SNP, but their leader says it is bound | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
individuals to make a decision. do not understand the difficulty. | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
This is clearly an issue of conscience which is not something | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
you did a party were born. The Government will declare its | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
position and we have a consultation document coming out in a few weeks' | :01:47. | :01:53. | |
time. That is the best way in a matter such as this - to engage in | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
a debate and then come to a consultation not as a political | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
party that has a Parliament. John Mason's motion has angered Alan | :02:01. | :02:11. | |
:02:11. | :02:21. | ||
As things stand at the moment, it is down to individual priests and | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
ministers who gets to decide who gets their wedding photographs | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
taken on the steps. The Catholic Church will not marry divorcees and | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
some ministers will not marry members of their congregation, so | :02:33. | :02:39. | |
the idea of rules for the marriage is just an extension of that. They | :02:39. | :02:46. | |
are few who think that is an unreasonable compromise. In John | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
Mason's back garden Shettleston, no one these but who thought it would | :02:50. | :02:58. | |
cause any major problems. You can deprive them if you wanted yourself. | :02:58. | :03:04. | |
Why should they refused? They didn't refuse them to live outside | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
of wedlock, and they're still baptising the children when people | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
and married, so what is the difference? Reverend MoD Robertson | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
from the Unitarian Church his campaign to make same-sex marriages | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
legal, but she doesn't think forcing people the conduct them is | :03:19. | :03:29. | |
:03:29. | :03:32. | ||
what anyone wants to stop -- anyone wants. I fully accept that there | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
are people who, for genuine religious reasons, feel that they | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
cannot and would not beat and a position to officiate at a same-sex | :03:40. | :03:46. | |
marriage, and therefore I think it would be important that there is a | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
conscience clause within any legislation for same-sex marriage. | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
That there would be no legal red percussion for anybody who, for | :03:55. | :04:02. | |
religious reasons, wanted out of it. The question is, would any couple | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
want to be married by a celebrant who basically does not approve of | :04:05. | :04:12. | |
their relationship? They probably would not want to be married. | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
Henderson has been campaigning for same-sex marriage in Scotland. He | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
says that John Mason's motion is unnecessary, because everyone | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
involved in the debate already except the right to opt out. | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
not sure what he's trying to get that. It has been the position of | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
everybody involved in this debate that there has to be a religious | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
opt-outs for those in various churches to do not want to conduct | :04:34. | :04:40. | |
those, because nobody should be forced if they do not want it. It | :04:40. | :04:46. | |
is really important that those religions and face and all | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
religious groups who want to conduct same-sex marriages are | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
allowed to do so. What about the allegation that refusing to manage | :04:55. | :05:02. | |
a gay couple could be construed is discrimination? Even in terms of | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
European human rights physician, a balance has to be struck between | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
the rates of the individuals who want to be married and the rights | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
and religious bodies to carry out the marriage. We need to bear in | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
mind that carrying out a marriage is not just a public service, it is | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
a religious service, so there has to be a balance between the rights | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
of the religious celebrant as against the rights of the parties. | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
From a legal point of view, a compromise has to be struck. | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
Compromise is after all said to be the key to a successful marriage. | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
Will that be something the politicians remember when the | :05:35. | :05:41. | |
debate the issue later this year. With me here is the SNP MSP John | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
Mason, and in Edinburgh is the Green MSP Alison Johnstone. Thank | :05:46. | :05:52. | |
you both. John Mason, this is a completely pointless motion, isn't | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
it? No one is arguing that charges are anyone else should be forced to | :05:58. | :06:04. | |
marry gay couples? There is a certain concern or fear amongst | :06:04. | :06:06. | |
certain churches and religious organisations that that could be a | :06:06. | :06:12. | |
consequence. I am reassured by what people said in your film club, but | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
some churches are scared that if judges are permitted to carry it | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
same-sex marriage, and some do and some don't, it would only take one | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
couple to go to a church that did not want to do it and claim that | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
they had been discriminated against. If we can ensure that this is in | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
place, I am relaxed about it. would you dixit? Would you like to | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
see legislation, and we don't of there will be any? What would you | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
like to see happen to ensure that that scenario does not develop? | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
Right now, I want to get a debate going and I am delighted that has | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
happened. Hopley, at this stage of consultation and the full bill, | :06:50. | :06:57. | |
which I hope will come, then it there will be a really inform | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
debate about these issues. There are also issues - such as the a | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
quality act - and we're talking about some kind of same-sex | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
marriage Act here in Scotland. How would that two of those compete in | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
court? Then there are Christian groups, who fear that when the | :07:14. | :07:21. | |
courts get hold of religion, they did it at the bottom of the pale. | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
Do you approve personally of the changes which have already taken | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
place in Scotland, which allow civil partnerships? Do you, on | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
personal religious grounds, disapprove? I am very relaxed about | :07:33. | :07:39. | |
what has happened and about most of what might happen. Does relaxed | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
been a rule? Were relaxed means they want a society were lots of | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
different minority groups can co- exist with each other, and we do | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
not always agree with each other... Are all those groups before? A they | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
absolutely must be. Every person must be equal. Then why don't gay | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
people have an equal right to manage? I think they should have. I | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
am happy about that. Nor concern whatsoever about the concept of gay | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
marriage? I think the judges have been guilty about eating minorities | :08:09. | :08:15. | |
badly for centuries, and I am happy to accept that. What they want to | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
do is get rid of that and create a society where we are really go. The | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
fear of many churches is that it will switch the other way and other | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
groups will put pressure on the churches. Alison Johnstone, that is | :08:27. | :08:33. | |
very reasonable? It sounds very reasonable indeed. I am reassured | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
by John's reassurance, and I personally believe his motion was | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
not strictly necessary, but it has ensured that we start debating this | :08:43. | :08:50. | |
now. This proposal will only affect those who wish to have a gay | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
marriage, and it will not affect those who do not. John is very | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
concerned, his motion is concerned with involving people who do not | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
approve of gay marriage, and that simply won't happen. What would you | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
like to see happen if there is legislation? It is only at the | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
level of a consultation, having a look at this, and we don't offered | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
will come forward. What would you like to see happen? The fact that | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
the members of the Scottish Youth Parliament with their lovely | :09:19. | :09:25. | |
Quiller campaign, they consulted many people in this was the one | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
issue they wanted to see debated. I think this shows what a great | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
includes of country we have good potential to become. I think we | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
should do all we can to embrace that intake that agenda forward. I | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
have no doubt that in a modern and tolerance Scotland, at any | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
consultation we have or reflect the fact that 50% of people in the last | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
survey supported this proposal. What difference would it make to | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
allow same-sex couples to get married, rather than have a civil | :09:52. | :09:57. | |
partnership? I civil partnership confers many if not all of the same | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
right, doesn't it? Just say you're the mother and father of three | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
children, and perhaps two of those children have the right to get | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
married and the other doesn't. How can that possibly be truly equal? | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
To my mind and that too many hundreds of thousands of other | :10:15. | :10:21. | |
Scots, that is not good enough. We need to look at that sensibly. If | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
we are looking up to a quality, we have to look at the quality for all. | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
Is this taking the quality too far? You're essentially arguing about a | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
label, not different rights and responsibilities. I don't think | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
this is simply a label at all. Marriage is about the celebration, | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
a recognition under declaration at of your love and commitment to | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
another person. Why should that depend on the person's gender? I do | :10:47. | :10:57. | |
:10:57. | :11:01. | ||
not see it is just a label but The debate has happened, not least | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
within your own party. Does some of the reaction you've had, does that | :11:06. | :11:13. | |
add to your fear those who don't share the believes might -- beliefs | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
might feel they are being persecuted? You have people feeling | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
persecuted on both sides. I think it would have been wrong in the -- | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
if the Scottish Parliament had drifted through this and because it | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
was a difficult issue to raise, then nobody wanted to raise it. I | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
think the public expect us, both the SNP, as the majority party, and | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
the Scottish Parliament, to really debate these issues. They want to | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
see the arguments put forward. strong is the SNP commitment? You | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
look at the manifesto. It says, we'll have a consultation, we will | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
discuss this. We recognise there are a variety of views. There is | :11:52. | :11:58. | |
not one commitment. Alex Salmond's point was correct. This is a matter | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
of conscience. Human rights are there as well. There will be a | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
variety of opinion. The Scottish National Party is now the National | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
Party of Scotland. We have a wide, wide range of people within that | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
party. It's the majority. So what the party decides and thinks is | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
really, really important for Scotland. How many share your | :12:16. | :12:22. | |
concerns? I think a few probably to. I think other people maybe share | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
concerns, people can be nervous about signing motions. I am not | :12:27. | :12:35. | |
worried about the number I get. I've had some critical E mays and | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
some on Facebook and some saying I was not going far enough. You say | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
you have been reassured by what John Mason has said. How do you | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
feel this debate will go forward? Do you think he's on the side of a | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
majority of people in Scotland or the minority? As I mentioned | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
earlier, 58% of people in the 2010 survey suggested they would back | :12:56. | :13:02. | |
the proposal of gay marriage. I would be more reassured if John | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
could issue a that if his concerns are addressed and he is assured | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
that gay marriage will not involve those who wish to be involved that | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
he will vote for this proposal. answer to that? I will have to wait | :13:14. | :13:20. | |
and see the bill. I am in the 58% as well. I really, really have to | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
look at these promises. That is a clear challenge. Nobody is going to | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
be forced and your motion is all about forcing people. Nobody is | :13:28. | :13:37. | |
forced to approve of same-sex relationships. There'll be more | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
issues rized in the consultations.Vy tried to raise one | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
-- raised in the consultation. I have tried to raise one point. We | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
will look at them and see what everybody is saying on the | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
consultation side of things. Thank you both very much indeed for your | :13:51. | :13:58. | |
time this evening. What was behind the decision to close RAF Leuchars | :13:58. | :14:05. | |
while keeping RAF Lossiemouth open. The local MP for Leuchars, Sir | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
Alastair Campbell, suggested it had more to do with the -- Sir mensy | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
Campbell said it had more to do with the strategy. The decision for | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
the RAF to leave Leuchars and end 70 years of flying from the base | :14:20. | :14:27. | |
came as a shock to the local community. Sir mingkam bell has | :14:27. | :14:33. | |
made no se -- Ming Campbell has made no secret. He accused Danny | :14:33. | :14:41. | |
Alexander of using his position in the Treasury to lob bion behalf of | :14:41. | :14:47. | |
RAF losssy -- lobby on behalf of RAF Lossiemouth. He told the Times | :14:47. | :14:57. | |
:14:57. | :15:08. | ||
The Treasury responded, emphasising it was the Minnesota which took the | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
final decision. -- the Ministry of Defence which | :15:13. | :15:23. | |
:15:23. | :15:33. | ||
It's that argument about economic impact which is the bone of | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
contention. Campaign groups argued if RAF Lossiemouth closed so soon, | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
the impact on the local community would have been devastating. There | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
are concerns that Leuchars could lie empty for up to two years | :15:46. | :15:52. | |
before it is turned into an army base. What impact will that have on | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
their community? The Labour MP Thomas Docherty has writ on the the | :15:55. | :16:03. | |
permanent secretary, asking her to investigate Sir ming's claims. The | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
MP Mr Docherty joins us now. Why do you want an investigation? These | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
are incredibly serious accusations made by one of the most senior | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
members of the House of Commons, a figure respected on all sides for | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
his knowledge of the defence and foreign affairs field. It is right | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
than rather than have them hanging up in the air over the Government's | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
decision, that we have a thorough investigation into these very | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
serious accusations. If what you are suggesting actually happened | :16:31. | :16:38. | |
and Danny Alexander, as a Highland MP, was advocating for a base in | :16:38. | :16:45. | |
the north of Scotland thark would be a natural thing to do, wouldn't | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
it? It would be for any who has an interest to champion their cause. | :16:49. | :16:57. | |
My understanding of what Ming has suggested, has alleged, is that the | :16:57. | :16:59. | |
Chief Secretary to the Treasury used the fact that he has the purse | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
strings for the Ministry of Defence to force the MoD to make a decision, | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
that perhaps was not correct. I think what we are seeing as well is, | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
and this is a Defence Review, we didn't begin with much credibility, | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
it is running out of credibility with every passing day. That is why | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
we need this independent investigation. As your call for an | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
investigation based on the reported comments of Sir Menzies Campbell, | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
but you have no evidence yourself? There are concerns that we on the | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
defence committee have about the way the process has been done. Ming | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
has made a specific allegation that the Treasury intervened on the | :17:38. | :17:43. | |
Ministry of Defence to change the decision. That's what we're asking | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
for, asking the permanent secretary to investigate. The defence | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
committee will in the autumn and winter study the review as a | :17:51. | :17:57. | |
process. Ming has made a serious accusation. One that if it stands | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
up will probably see the Chief Secretary to the Treasury leave his | :18:00. | :18:06. | |
job. Isn't there though a perfectly long-standing tradition of senior | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
members of Government advocating quite forcefully for their local | :18:11. | :18:19. | |
communities? After all Rosyth is in Fife? Gordon Brown was credited for | :18:19. | :18:24. | |
getting jobs to that particular base. Didn't this go on with all | :18:24. | :18:31. | |
Governments? Address you say Gordon Brown has been a fantastic champion | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
for the dockyard and Scottish workforce. As Chancellor didn't he | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
hold the purse strings about where aircraft would be built and | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
manufactured? Nobody has accused Gordon or any member of the | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
previous Government of taking work away from one constituency and | :18:49. | :18:57. | |
moving it to another for selfish or political reasons. It's absolutely | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
right that Gordon championed the Scottish industries, but not at the | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
expense of others in the United States. All decisions are made at | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
the expense of another community - if they are not built in one area, | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
they will be built in another area. Isn't Danny Alexander just doing | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
what most Government ministers would do? Well, obviously given the | :19:16. | :19:24. | |
limits of time here I will not start on my usual arguments about | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
the very poor Defence Review we have. Fundamentally, the defence of | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
the realm must come first. Ming is saying he believes that has been | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
compromised and done at the behest of the Chief Secretary to the | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
Treasury. It is right that any member of the Cabinet makes private | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
reputations as a constituency member. What Ming is alleging his | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
colleague did is threaten the Ministry of Defence using his purse | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
strings. OK, thank you very much indeed for your time. Let's look | :19:53. | :19:59. | |
now at tomorrow's newspaper now at tomorrow's newspaper | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
headlines. We begin with the Times. The news agenda has been dominated | :20:04. | :20:10. | |
by the riots in London. On to the Daily Telegraph "rule of the mob." | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
The picture of a burning vehicle and a young man walking across the | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
centre of that shot. The guardian has "the battle for London." Again | :20:19. | :20:27. | |
more shots of the trouble in the capital city. The Independent, "Mob | :20:27. | :20:35. |