11/08/2011 Newsnight Scotland


11/08/2011

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leaders. The question is, where did the power go and is it too late to

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Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, after days of rioting in English

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cities, Parliament debates what's happened. But have they cast any

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light on the issue and with thousands of police still on the

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streets, what happens next? Also tonight: Is there any truth in the

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idea that Scotland is somehow more left wing than England?

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Good evening. Well, thousands of police - including many from

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Scotland - are still on the streets of English cities tonight.

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Parliament was robust in its condemnation, but are we any nearer

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to solving the issue, or even to asking the right questions?

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Hundreds of specialist police officers have been deployed from

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Scotland's eight forces in support of colleagues in England and it is

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right and proper that everything is provided to assist areas which have

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been hit by rioting. Could the Prime Minister confirm what

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conversations he or the Home Secretary have had with the

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Scottish government about the support. I am not aware of any

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conversations but what I am aware of is the excellent rolled the

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Scottish police force played in helping the West Midlands force and

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I saw the impact for myself in Birmingham and I think it is good

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that our forces can co-operate in this way. The vast majority of the

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people in Scotland share the anger and frustration of the victims of

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these crimes but they are disappointed with the statement of

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the First Minister that this was an English problem. I have to say that

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people are extremely disappointed but I welcome the statement from

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the Prime Minister that he has been taking advice from Strathclyde

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Police. If the judicial system in Scotland took seriously the come --

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concerns of the police and impose sentences? I particularly admire

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the work Strathclyde have done on gangs and I want to make sure we

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learn that across the United Kingdom.

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I'm joined from Edinburgh by George Kerevan, Editor-in-Chief of the

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Newsnet Scotland website, and here in Glasgow by Ross Martin, Chief

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Executive of the think tank the Centre for Scottish Public Policy.

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Was that just a giant exhalation of hot air or was there any substance,

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I mean the parliamentary debate? There was a police officer saying

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it made not a jot of the operational decisions of the police

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whether Parliament came back into power or not and I think he was

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truly reflecting the separation between how police go about their

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business and the lack of power politicians have. Some of them

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might want to have more power over the police than they do.

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mixture of political theatre and judicial action, if you like, it

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does seem to be working, doesn't it? Everyone stands up, nations are

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united, the very visible police arrests, saying if you are thinking

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of going out this weekend, this is what will happen, it does seem to

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be having an effect? But I'm not sure if politicians roaming the

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streets and getting their pictures taken with clean-up squads with

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brooms is actually changing the impact for those who might be

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rioting. It is because the police have changed their tactic and are

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going for a mirage -- a more robust method. I said I would never ask

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anyone to make forecasts of what would happen but the fact is, we

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still have 17,000 police on the streets of London and we have

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thousands in Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham, it is quite

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difficult to know how this will pan out? It may well be that the

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weather means everyone gets fed up and that is the end of it but how

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would you wind a situation like this down? Like you, I am loath to

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make predictions. Sadly, right sorry fact of urban life and always

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have been. They kind of follow a trajectory. They are short-lived,

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unless there is a serious underlying problem which needs to

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be resolved, writes tend to be short-lived. They tend to have a

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detonator, the excitement of the two or three nights and then they

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die down. There might be a flare-up at the weekend but IAA think the

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worst is over. Do you think or we have seen over the last week it is

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some sort of watershed event or, it is obviously important that it is

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more widespread than anything we have seen, but do you think

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politically or culturally it is a watershed event or will it take its

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place in a long line of things which have happened? That is up to

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the politicians. I disagree with Ross. It is important that the

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politicians respond to the feeling there was over the weekend, that

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the police have disappeared and this was allowed to happen and now

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the politicians are back and they need to learn a lesson. I distance

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myself a little from some of my SNP colleagues, you cannot say Scotland

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could not be involved. It is young men who riot by and large, the

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young men who do not go to university and do not have a career,

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in the modern society, they are the bottom of the social heap. That is

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a tinder. It does not excuse anybody to go out and write, and

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personally I would have brought out the water cannon, but it is a

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tinder. I'm curious as to whether you think this will be seen as a

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watershed event. In a way that the riots in Brixton were in the 1980s?

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I do not think so because there does not seem to be a clear reason

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for the outbreak of violence and disorder in all the parts of

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England. There seemed to be very localised different reasons which

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have come together and boiled up and fermented into this mass action.

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There is not a clear underlying cause. To blame the unrest on cuts

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in educational maintenance allowance as some politicians were

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trying to do, is complete rubbish. To try and attach it to elements of

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social policy in that direction is completely wrong. Don't go away,

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both of you, we will be back in a moment.

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Now, the Guardian caused a flutter recently with a front page story

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about plans by Ed Miliband to reduce the voting power of the

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unions at the Labour conference. The Left immediately saw it as an

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attempt to sideline trades unions as soon as Labour has spent their

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money on an election. It coincided with the 40th anniversary of the

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Upper Clyde Shipbuilders work IN and the establishment of a think

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tank dedicated to the memory of Jimmy Reid. Derek Bateman asks if

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there's a revival of the Left. Scotland likes to portray itself as

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a place connected to its working- class past, leading to a heightened

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sense of social solidarity. It is a romantic notion. And we will never

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last unless you are giving the same solidarity you have been giving us

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for the last 13 weeks. You help pass and we will keep on fighting.

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Voting patterns certainly seemed to show we are a country of the broad

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left. Labour and the SNP by for the upper hand. There remains a liberal

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tradition also Socialists and Greens have been elected to

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Holyrood and since 1987, the Tories have been in retreat. So why has

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there been a dearth of left ideas? Govan was the place to launch the

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think tank be Jimmy Reid Foundation. These are former shipyard workers.

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I came because I was made aware of the Jimmy Reid Foundation. I was in

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the shipyards for 40 years continuously. IAA spent 40 years

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working and I was a personal friend of Jimmy Reid and political and

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social colleague of Jimmy Reid. think the idea of the Jimmy Reid

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Foundation is excellent. I have been observing the left over the

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years. There have been so many citizens. Ed Miliband is floating

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the idea of limiting the unions' voting power at Labour conference.

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A classic move against the left. Shades here of John Smith with one-

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member, one-vote and Tony Blair closing-down Clause Four, steps

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which breed suspicion among Face see the unions as a bit of

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embarrassment. -- they see it the unions. The Labour Party leadership

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always wants to marginalise the unions. The irony is if the Labour

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Party leadership was a bit more minded to take the policies of the

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unions at face value, the Labour Party's stance and marks the public

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would increase. The unions do reflect the public, and the

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ordinary people. Jimmy Reid may have provided that

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the left with an impetus. Where is the letter today? Good question. I

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am not sure, in terms of centre- left politics we do need to indulge

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in ideas. We need to inspire people, debt collectors interested. We need

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people to be talking about the future, talking about the problems

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of Scotland, individual communities. It is as if under the weight a

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conventional politics the left has crumbled. We need to talk about

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where we go as a country? If everything comes... A one would

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hope. There is a very tribal nature. Where is the voice during the

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minimum pricing debate? Where is the alternative credible voice?

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That is sometimes used as party lines. There is an irony in all

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this. If every second cent since -- if they raise a consensus, it is

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not on the right. Almost all of the credible political parties hold to

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the same sort of general be used. - - same sort of general abuse.

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Centre politics is the dominant force in Scotland. Whilst the

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centre parties are ideal free zones. There are people willing to talk

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about different options. Is there a new opportunity for organised

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labour, through Jim Murphy for stop if unions are marginalised it would

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just -- if the unions are marginalised it will affect the

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Labour Party. Whilst it is a romantic notion,

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Scott and's notion of people and liberalism made to make -- may end

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up being pragmatic. We will be discussing the future of

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the Scottish Conservatives before too long.

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Ross Martin and John -- and George Kerevan are still here. One person

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said the left in Scotland is the mainstream. He is that the problem?

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The SNP have realised that. That is absolutely true. What has happened

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in Scotland is that politicians think they have moved on, but the

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people have moved on pass them. -- passed a them. People have moved

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the gate. People are organising themselves outside the political

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mainstream. What is left gets defined in such broader terms. --

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such broad terms. The SNP are not a left-wing party, they are like

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Christian Democrats in a northern European country. They are not

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hostile to big business. They do not want to contain big business

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today? Scottish society, I mean the middle-class part, has centre-left

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values. The SNP reflects that. They are a centre-left party in the

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Scandinavian tradition. The Scottish consensus is that

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collectivism is a top-down statist approach to reform. Radicalism, I

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still count myself as a radical, that means we have to get away from

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the top down statist approach. That change has to come from the bottom,

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from other local authorities, local groups and community groups. Even

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trade unionism. If you think of all the debates that we have had, you

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cannot have a sensible discussion here. We cannot talk about free

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prescriptions for rich people. Perhaps if private companies could

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help provide a public services? you look at Scotland, and try to

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find a way Brackley is a maze, -- try to find where radicalism is,

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there is a lack of responsibility. Scotland never got them Margaret

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Thatcher, Germany and France never got that either. Nobody accuses

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Angela Merkel or Nicolas Sarkozy are the right wing. The Labour

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Party in Scotland looks at the SNP and sees itself, and vice-versa.

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Scottish politics will always be seen prove that crazy present. --

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that crazy prism. The SNP is cleverer that been seen left-wing

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when it wants to. He it is -- it is not challenging the consensus.

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tend to agree with that. There is a problem in the local parties across

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Scotland. The leaderships are often frightened to embrace policy debate.

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It has been that way since the 1970s. We are never going to have a

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referendum unless the SNP comes up and says what it would do in that

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event. Amongst all the parties north and south of the border,

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there is a worry about getting into a serious policy debate. That is

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why the Jimmy Reid Foundation is a good idea. We need to debate

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serious ideas. When you see that film, many people in Scotland, even

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people who see themselves in that light, never had anything to do

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with it. Nobody talks about the Scottish middle classes. It is the

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Scottish middle classes who form the big mass of people who vote for

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the political parties. They are in the middle of the distribution

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curve. That is represented in the public's get -- the public sector

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of Scotland. Thank you very much.

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A look at the front pages. The Guardian there, the Independent as

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well. They are all talking about the event macros. -- riots.

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Cutbacks in the Financial Times. Rain in Scotland. Some sunshine in

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East Anglia. A misty humid kind of day. It will be great for most of

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the day. A line of rain will move slowly across Wales. He should not

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be too heavy here. Some rain early on across Northern Ireland. We may

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see things turning dryer. It will be pretty wet by the end of the day

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in western Scotland and the far north-east. That rain will move

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across all of the Scotland during Friday evening. Some bright

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