12/09/2011 Newsnight Scotland

economic Area. So you would do nothing?

We will leave it there. On Newsnight Scotland - at the two

Unionist parties are gearing up to sore back to the top of the

political pyramid, at least it they say. Leadership candidates are

beginning to line up for Labour and I will speak to one of their party

review's offers. And I'll speak to a Conservative candidate for party

leadership. Does Jackson Carlaw have what it takes to transform the

Conservative Party fortunes? Labour is used to being in power in

Scotland. But now members are coming to terms with not being in

control of anything bigger than a council. On Saturday the party held

back from its internal review. I will speak to the co-chair of that

The SNP is now firmly established as a party of government.

Increasingly it is presenting itself as the party. And it is not

just the Education Secretary who is having to bow to Alex Salmon's

achievements. There is no party for the Scot --

no future for the Scottish Conservative Party and its current

form. Scottish Labour is also attempting

to reform to present a more authentic picture to the Scottish

electorate. We will reorganise at grass roots

level. We're putting energy into the party and totally transforming

it. We will provide a set of structures that bring us up to date.

So that we can strengthen our party but stand up for Scotland and when

a referendum when it comes. We have reflected over the summer

and are now totally focused on the future. We will give ourselves a

stronger leader, support that leader, let them do the job.

But the process of replacing Ian Gray is tortuous. Approval is still

needed from the UK party conference before hustings in November and the

result being announced before Christmas. This drawn-out process

is already providing the SNP with comic material.

As he prepares for his imminent retirement... Well, I do not know

whether it is imminent! This means that attention is drawn

away from scrutinising the SNP government. But it does appear that

they have rather large penny has dropped. The big message from this

year's Holyrood election is that been perceived as Scottish matters.

It is only now that the SNP has an overall majority that Labour and

Conservatives have woken up. The Scottish electorate are not

daft. They know the difference between Holyrood and Westminster

elections. When it comes to the Scottish elections that they are

seeking a Scottish dimension, each of the party's high as to operate

within that, they have to go along with the perspective advanced by

the Scottish people. The reform package for Labour is

likely to be accepted. But whoever becomes the new leader will have a

job on their hands. The SNP is marching on and by the time a new

leader is chosen they will have had a six month start on the opposition.

I am now joined by a Sarah Boyack MSP who was co-chair of the Labour

review. You have had plenty of time to think about this, what does the

party in Scotland stand for nowadays?

We stand for a successful Scotland. One of the key messages from our

campaign was that we did not win support for our vision. That vision

was for a fairer and Scotland, I Scotland of solidarity, investing

in vital public services. We did not get that message across. In the

middle of a recession our plans for creating jobs and Modern

apprenticeships did not get that message across so now we must

reform the party, I get it fit for or this, and a repeat the job that

we did in 1999 when their devolved parliament was set up, we will now

devolve the party and make sure that decisions affecting Scotland

have taken here by the Scottish party.

We will talk about that process and a moment. But you talk about Labour

being a party of fairness, solidarity, public services. You

could be describing the SNP - what is the difference?

The SNP tried to get in on our territory. We have been debating

and how we move forward and changing how the party works is

just that the first step. Having a party leader elected by the

Scottish a membership is the first part. We must support the leader.

What are the policy differences that will make?

It is a process. We have sport to business leaders and party members.

They want us to articulate a vision, the key is how we do it.

But you have talked about looking more Scottish. What will be more

Scottish end terms of what the leader part -- the Labour Party?

We have to set out a radical and exciting agenda for Scotland. We're

putting in place a mechanism to get a new leader and make sure that the

party organisation becomes a fit for purpose. We have not performed

at the party for decades and this has to be our agenda moving for

water. You talk about a new leader with

the devolved power. What will the new leader be able to do that Ian

Gray could not do? They can speak for the hall Labour

Party in Scotland. They will have an authority that Ian could not

call on as a leader. That is the significant thing, at will be a

leader of the Scottish Labour Party and it will Borrie the IB are that

we are runner for its -- runner from a London.

Let's talk about how this works in practice. So the new leader can ask,

I want you to vote this way at Westminster because I am the

Scottish leader and you represent a Scottish constituency?

No, we are devolving on council matters and Holyrood matters. But

we remain proud of being a UK party. In the terms of radical change you

have really not be radical at all. You talk about a committee, that

will doubtless be exciting for some are members. You're going to double

the policy-making of the party but that does not seem to make much

difference from what you're saying. There is no radicalism here what so

ever. I disagree. We should maybe have

done this before but we cannot be complacent and we have to rebuild

on the success labour initially had in setting up the Scottish

Parliament. We have to build from where we are now. We have MSPs

across the whole of Scotland. I think it is a fundamental to send

the message that the Scottish Labour Party is here, we'll have a

new leader, we will be Scotland's Labour Party, that is a few jolly

important, we are looking to the future, if we're going to set a

radical, exciting vision for Scotland.

Don't you increasingly look like a party which is defined not by

traditional policies but by opposition to independence?

Absolutely not. We have lots of exciting policies we just have not

communicated them effectively. The next stage of the review is looking

at the available resources and how we talk as a team. We have to be a

team and not represent different interests of different sections. We

have to be coherent and radical. You sound like you are talking to a

focus group rather than outlining hard facts that will make a

difference to voters. Absolutely not. We have to get on

the front foot and get our confidence back. But this is only

the first stage. The next stage will be putting in place the

support to make sure we can reconnect with the voters.

Are you interested in the leadership job yourself?

I am very flattered but my job is to make sure that whoever it is a

has the authority and the confidence to move forward. It is a

know from me, I hope that the vision is a success but it is up to

At the weekend the Scottish Conservative party endorse the

findings of veteran Lord Sanderson. Now they have a campaign to find

their new leader. Last week we heard from Murdo Fraser, tonight is

the turn of Jackson Carlaw. Murdo Fraser snatched the headlines last

week as he played his cards with the word radical. Ruth Davidson

gained attention when she sacked her chief of staff after he was

accused of so-called Bullingdon Club behaviour, trying to burn a

European Union flag. But she enjoyed the celebrity endorsement

of Lord Forsyth. This man, Jackson Carlaw, was first into the

leadership race, but he has made fewer headlines. Is that the canny

decision, realising he must convince the party members to vote

for him, not a newspaper editors? The West of Scotland MSP lives in

Troon. Good morning and welcome. The phoney war is over. He opened

his campaign with the slogan a strong Scotland in a Great Britain.

He has criticised some policies of the retiring leader and has combat

at Murdo Fraser's Unionism to save them from a breakaway organisation.

He wants an early referendum on independence and does not seem keen

on any more devolution, but as public health spokesperson he is

backing the SNP plan for the minimum pricing of a cult. While

Lord Tebbit is backing Murdo Fraser, it is not clear which Tory icons

are backing Jackson Carlaw. Earlier this evening, he joins me in the

studio and I asked him why he thinks he is best placed to lead

the party in Scotland. I believe I can make a difference. I have been

involved in the party for 30 years at all levels as a youth leader, a

constituency chairman, somebody who was appointed to be deputy chairman

and also as a parliamentarian. I have a thorough understanding of

the party, an understanding of what we need to do at the 11th hour for

the Scottish Conservative Party if we are finally to make some sort of

recovery in Scotland. Many people may not know you or your politics.

Let's have a run-through of some of the key, touchstone Tory policies.

Are you proud to call yourself a Thatcherite? I was very proud to

support Margaret Thatcher. What Thatcherism means today I do not

know. Proud? Proud to be a supporter of Margaret Thatcher and

a Scottish Conservative. Still a Thatcherite? What is a Thatcherite?

Capital punishment, a good thing or a bad thing. I would not support it.

Do you support the concept of a marriage. I do not think it should

be forced upon churches that do not wish to do it, but those who wish

to, should be allowed to do so. you accept the argument climate

change is man-made? They impart. It is difficult to be absolutely

certain whether it is wholly man- made. It is a considerable

challenge. The greater challenge is the resources of the planet in

total and how we manage them. move on to the future of your party.

You spoke about it being the 11th hour. We do you blame for that

predicament? I think collectively. When I started out in politics we

still have people like Teddy Taylor representing as in cities like

Glasgow, we had lots of councillors. Thereafter we lost support in the

cities and we ignored cities and urban communities. For many people

we stopped having a message that was relevant. We have compounded

that over the last few years. Under Annabel Goldie we have had a

remarkable relationship with the electorate. But at the end of the

day they have not voted for us. I do not think they think that what

we stand for has any connection or relevance for them. Annabel Goldie

was a good person, but a bad leader? She was a good leader, in

this sense a lot of people are listening to us again. They liked

her plain talking. But possibly we have been too cautious, too insular.

Perhaps the MSPs have felt they are the centre of the political

universe. We have not been reaching out to a much broader base of

people in the Conservative Party, to evolve policies which are going

to succeed in places which are not currently being elected to. You are

a personal liability. You have a safe Conservative seat to fight and

you suffered a humiliating defeat. A like all three other candidates I

failed to win my seat. But you had a notionally safe Conservative seat.

It was a notionally safe seat according to the BBC. I was hugely

disappointed by the result. Was it more about you or the message?

of the problem was the message we were fighting on. The first time

view of our manifesto was the first day it was published. It was before

I knew what we were going to be fighting the election on. That is

not a recipe for success. We have to be much more inclusive in the

way we develop a policy. In the West of Scotland's with all the

publicity and television appearances Annabel court, her

share of the vote went down as well. The Scottish Conservatives' share

of the vote went there to a record low in May. That is not a record

any of us can be proud of. You are no fan of Annabel Goldie and her

leadership, are you? You have made that clear so far. You have also

made clear her leadership has also helped to further the cause of

independence. I believe the approach, which was well

intentioned, I was not necessarily a supporter of it... Why did you

not say that? I have since 2005 and many people in the party knew I did

not feel we should have a referendum. You stood up and said,

she has got it completely wrong? have said so. Publicly? Yes, at a

party conference to which the BBC were invited. You will say

something to an audience of activists, but would not say it to

an electorate? We have a leader and a group and the group determine the

policy we would fight the election on and I supported that. But my own

view is we have been playing too long to the SNP tuna. We have

allowed ourselves to react to their shopping list of demands. It has

not advanced as electorally. The time has come, not simply to spend

the next few years reacting to Alex Salmond, who will have a shopping

list for every day of the week, and to ask the people of Scotland, do

they want to renew the 300 year old partnership with the United Kingdom

or separate from it? After that, from a position of strength,

Scotland will stand taller and it will be more empowered and we can

discuss such transfers that need to come to the Scottish Parliament

within a framework. Do you think the Scottish Parliament should have

more or fewer powers? I do not think it is giving value to money

for the taxpayer. I published a paper last week which said we need

to sit logger, work harder, give the taxpayer better value for money.

We need to do a better job of giving effect to the powers we have

it before we get more. But we are going to get more. You have

described the Scotland at proposals as being thought. What I said was I

think the process by which the Scotland at came about, the Calman

Commission, basically a review group responding to the particular

issues like fishing rights in the Tweed, was the wrong way to go

about it. Another issue in which you disagreed privately in your

leadership, but did not tell the public? No, I made my views

reasonably clear and I am sorry you have not picked up on that. The

wrong way to respond has been to respond all the time to what the

SNP are thinking. If we are going to transfer powers to Scottish

Parliament, and over the next generation there will be other

instances that are appropriate, it should be because it is in the best

interests of Scotland, not because we think the reason to transfer the

powers to the Scottish Parliament is because it will kill the SNP

stone dead. That strategy is not the one for success. If you win, is

there a place in your party for Murdo Fraser? Yes. Even though he

does not believe in the party any more? What is the point if we all

say the same thing in this election? The candidates are

offering choices to the Conservative Party and it is to the

membership of the party that these choices are being offered. There

are 15 MSPs and we will unite behind whoever the leader is.

That is about unrealistic energy targets. A report out on tomorrow