24/10/2011 Newsnight Scotland

I agree with that too. But you must not tell lies about what is

possible. Hello and welcome to a special

edition of Newsnight Scotland. The race to succeed Annabel Goldie as

leader of the Scottish Conservatives. The four contenders

are here. Their first live television debate of the campaign.

Whoever takes over will have their work cut out. The party has only

one Scottish MP and lost ground in the Holyrood elections. Who has

what it takes to turn the party around? Or is a breakaway from the

UK Conservatives necessary to win over the Scottish public? The

party's 8,500 Scottish members have just 10 days to cast their votes.

The new leader will be named on November for. The candidates are:

Jackson Carlaw. Ruth Davidson. The questions will come from myself

and our politically interested audience. They include a range of

voices from across the political spectrum in Scotland. Both within

and out with the Scottish Conservative Party. Our first

question comes from corner. Is changing the party's name a

suicide note? Per I do not think it is a suicide note but I think it is

the wrong answer. It makes us look as if we are

ashamed to be Conservatives. I am proud to be a Conservative and

Unionist. I want to take the party that I am an and revitalise that

party and give us success going forward as the Scottish

Conservative and Unionist Party. I am not simply proposing a change

of name. People would see through that. It is more fundamental. About

creating a new centre-right party in Scotland which will be an

alliance with the London party but able to develop distinct policies.

Hundreds of thousands of Scottish people have centre right political

values but will not vote for a party that carries the Conservative

label. We must bring them in. We have tried campaigning, different

leaders, had a very popular leader in Annabel Goldie who I am sorry to

see the tyre, but it is clear that a new leader is not the answer. We

have tried that before. -- I am sorry to see Annabel Goldie retire.

It is easy to emphasise with more's honest assessment. -- empathise.

But I think of it did not work it would do irreparable damage to the

party and it is far too big a gamble.

Crew is in favour of the idea? Alistair Sinclair?

We cannot do the same thing over and over again and expect a

different result. Surely the only way as Marco's way. -- the only way

is Murdo Fraser's way. The Conservative a brand is dead. Or it

is dying. It has to be revived. When we where the Unionists in the

1950s we were known as the Tories because we took the Conservative

whip at Westminster. So it does not matter what we call ourselves. You

cannot change the flavour of a whisky without -- just by changing

the message on the bottle. That is a misnomer. We're not

suggesting that we do the same thing again. We are suggesting that

as a party we changed. A change in the way we relate to people who

have stopped listening to us. I relate it very much to what the

Welsh Conservatives dead after being wiped out in 1997. They

looked at the same questions and Murdo Fraser has looked at and

suggested changing their name to a Welsh language version. But they

decided, no, we should return to first principles. We should engage

people and do a listening exercise. We do not know what policies you

would change! Yes you do. I would increase and

make more flexible childcare in Scotland. At the moment some, I'm

sure you will understand as a young father yourself, some people pay up

to �800 per month in child care bills. A second mortgage.

All the other candidates are talking about top down policies.

But we must relate to people. I am proud to be a Scottish Conservative

and Unionist. The last election, the policies were not right. They

were predicated on the assumption that we would be holding the

balance of power in the Scottish Parliament. Absolute nonsense. Not

helpful in the first instance. Did you not have influence in the

last Parliament? As a backbencher I would say no.

Before we are going into the Scottish local government elections,

in six months' time, to be using the kind of language that Murdo

Fraser has used it is not helpful. To the point of almost have been

madness. I understand that we are down to our core vote. The bare

bones. Nobody disputes that. We have to move on and connect with

people. Local government elections will be hour opportunity to do that.

What makes you think that repackaging with similar policies

will have an Botha's flocking to your cause?

We thought over core of what was 16% and it fell to 12% this year.

So that core vote, Margaret, is getting worse and worse. But we

have opinion polling which suggest it will improve if we go down the

road I propose. In particular with younger voters. The hardest voters

to reach. Yet they are the most enthusiastic about the new start I

am proposing. We have tried a restructuring.

Jackson Carlaw. We have not tried -- we have tried

that. Breakaway parties have not had any success whatsoever. When I

was growing up, when we lost in the cities, people thought we had lost

interest in them. We must have policies which responded beyond the

core quote of people voting for us today. The perception that we only

I would like to bring in some voices from the audience. I would

like to hear your thoughts on why people do not vote Tory. Gentlemen

at the back. The Scottish people seem to vote predominantly for

centre-left policy. If you are talking about changing policy, why

not move to the left? They are not left wing enough? Definitely.

Gentlemen at the front. I am up the same vintage as Teddy

Taylor. The young people are less interested in the name of the party,

they are more interested in how they will get employment and hope

for the future. That gentleman there.

I think the three contestants apart from Murdo Fraser are fooling

themselves. Fiscal policy and control will happen in Scotland.

The Tory party at the moment is a Westminster based party. The

Scottish people were in an awful mess. I would be behind Murdo

Fraser on this one. Whether you are in favour of the UK, independence

or some sort of devolution in between, it has been said the

Scottish party is not Scottish enough, it is a UK party? I am

Scottish to my bones and I will cry in the terracing of either

Murrayfield or harm done. I want to talk of Scottish policies, I want

to make sure we make the devolution settlement workforce Scotland. We

recognise we are a Scottish party and one of the things this

election... You mean you don't so far? This is not about electing a

leader for the MSP group in Holyrood, it is electing a leader

for the whole party in Scotland. Margaret Mitchell, do you apologise

for the legacy of Margaret Thatcher too much? No, we have to be robust

but do not dwell on it, it was 18 years ago. We have to start

Connecting with people and dealing with the issues that matter and

resonate with them. The so called to be issues that make sense to

address. Health issues, people who have children with special needs.

There is a raft of people out there desperately looking for politicians

to represent their views. That's where I see the Scottish

Conservatives moving forward. Be under no illusion, we are in a

difficult political situation with the advent of a majority SNP

Government, people can no longer have the luxury of voting SNP as

either a protest vote or as a tactical vote. Let's take another

question to get through as much as we can in the time we have got.

Victor Clements, on the front row. I want to pick up on Margaret's....

Are you Victor Clements? Now I am not. What second question if any

would you like to see in the independence referendum? I think it

should be a clear question, do we wish to renew the 300 year-old

partnership with the United Kingdom, or do we wish to separate? Alex

Salmond has made great play in the Scottish Parliament by saying he

would halt this referendum in the second half of this Parliament and

stick to his manifesto commitment. His manifesto was have a referendum

on independence and not on other questions. I think this is an

opportunity for Scotland and I think we should have held this

referendum years ago and I argued for that within the party. The

argument he has put 300 years ago when we sold our soul, is one that

resonates. I want this generation of Scotland to make this decision

for themselves. It would make us better if we can fight as Unionists

and win the referendum. If Alex Salmond cannot name the day sooner

than later, Westminster should be prepared with the Scotland Bill to

table the question for him. Victor was my Lib Dem opponent at the

elections. Maybe you are thinking of joining us? That is why you are

joining us tonight? Don't shake your head so rapidly. I agree with

Jackson, it should be a straight yes or No to independence. Do we

want to remain part of the United Kingdom with the benefits it

brings? Or, do we want to become a separate country?

If there is to be a two question referendum, might you want to back

a second option, are more Scottish Parliament within the UK? That is a

cop out. We would have to see what the second question was. Simply by

proposing that, what Alex Salmond is saying is he cannot win a

straight yes or No Vote on independence. He is already

conceding he will get a No Vote to independence. As someone who

supports the UK, I welcome that admission to Alex Salmond. Let's

take him on on that vital issue, yes or No to independence?

Some people in your party thing you have gone native at Holyrood. Not

only do you think of independence for the Scottish party but some

sort of independence for the country, is that wrong? The reason

I want to create a centre-right party in Scotland is so we can make

the Unionist case and take on Alex Salmond. But don't you believe him

more power for the Scottish Parliament? I have always believed

in that. Because we were anti- devolution, as we were throughout

the 80s and 90s, a very good reasons at the time, and it allowed

our political parties to betray us as anti-Scottish. We need to be

positive about devolution. That is conceding to the SNP shopping-list

for the last 10 years. It has not men's policies that are right for

Scotland, but embracing policies the SNP want because we are too

frightened to say no to them. Scotland Bill going through

Westminster which creates a degree of financial stability for the

Scottish Parliament is a very good move. It is positive. Many let's

hear what Margaret thinks. You are not happy with the Scotland Bill?

We seem to have found ourselves in the position were Alex Salmond is

waiting for the Unionist parties to put forward but they want for

devolution Max. My amendment was backed for a referendum on the

Scottish income tax. Do you want them handed back? I want them to

use the powers they have just now, they had never used the 3p variable.

What about the original question, what would you once had in the

second question? A don't want a second question, I want a straight

yes or no. Not talking down Scott Dunn, not saying we are too small

and too poor to survive alone. But talk about what Scotland

contributes to the United Kingdom, but also what we get back from it.

Let's make a positive case, not like some of the arguments in the

1970s, but talk about what we get as being part of the United Kingdom

with armed forces, we get a permanent seat at the Security

Council and the United Kingdom. Let's have bought Team GB at the

Olympics, we are British and Scottish and we can have both. Alex

Salmond shouldn't take part of that away from us. Are you like Jackson,

keen on the UK Government forcing Alex Salmond's hand and bringing

this referendum for what? It needs to be. David Cameron has said he

won't go down that road and I think that is sensible. Yes or no? It is

not going to happen. We need to move on to some more quick-fire

questions and answers if we can. I am keen to get through a few policy

questions which have been stolen from the pronouncements some of you

have made during the course of the campaign. I want to see where you

stand on a single police force for Scotland. Margaret Mitchell? I am

against it. It was a policy devised because it was to save money. I

don't think it is accountable enough, I want to see three forces.

Murdo Fraser? And I am with Margaret. We got the policy wrong

in the election in May. I think the party made a mistake in the way in

which it came to the conclusion it was going to back this policy and

did not talk to the people. Actually having talks with senior

police officers in Scotland, I think it will improve policing so

I'd back it. It is the wrong policy and the way we went about it is

wrong. The police board convenors were told in a conference call this

was going to be the policy. The wrong way to go about establishing

policy. That has been the problem, top-down policies from Holyrood.

moratorium on wind farms, you are keen on that? A wind farm now is a

single win turbine and they have been approved without regard to the

patchwork they are representing across the countryside. We need a

moratorium and an audit. I sit on the local Government and planning

committee and I have asked to look at the planning rules which

surround wind farms. There is no cohesive structure. Maybe not a

moratorium but a new planning regime and a new approach to energy

policy which is not about building pointless wind turbines which

contributes nothing to energy needs. A moratorium, absolutely. Time is

running away with us this evening. Let's go to another question. It

comes from Sarah Robinson from Edinburgh.

Do you believe EU membership is on balance, a good thing? Murdo

Fraser? On balance, yes but I would like to see a repatriation of

powers back to the UK and start with the UK fisheries policy. It

has been a disaster for Scottish thing -- fishing industries. I'd

like to see a looser relationship with Europe. We do have been among

the rebels at a Westminster tonight, the 80 or so Conservative rebels

demanding a referendum? Yes I would. It is fair, it is reasonable to

have a referendum as to whether Great Britain is part of Europe.

terms of the EU my dad worked in Scottish business, he make textiles

and then worked in whisky. I know how important Europe is as a

trading partner and to have free trade across Europe is so important.

I wouldn't withdraw wholly from Europe. Would I repatriate powers?

I think there is far too much intrusion on to our sovereignty,

absolutely. We do have voted for a referendum tonight? Not on that

terribly worded motion -- motion. Are you a Conservative? I am a

Labour member. I would like to say, it is a 1976 agreement we have

agreed to and now this is a 21st century problem. We have agreed

more and more for this horrendous policy towards Europe, and we are

losing powers. The you would like a referendum would you? Yes. The lady

behind you. If David Cameron wouldn't repatriate, I would get

repatriation of our fishing policy. Is it right English ministers

representing English constituencies have power over the Scottish MP for

the agricultural policies? If I was the Scottish leader I would be very

much lobbying David Cameron. Alex Salmond held a national

conversation on independence, it is time for a national conversation

amongst the people of the United Kingdom about our membership within

the European Union. If I am elected leader, at the first conference

there will be an open debate on what Europe means to us as Scottish

Conservatives. What is David Cameron worried about? Using a

three-line whip to trying get people... This was a question which

would have been well served to allow people to express a view.

There was a concern at one point jobs depended on Europe and now

there is a concern jobs might be lost because of Europe. It is time

there was a frank debate and just as we are having a discussion about

whether or not we have a referendum on independence for Scotland,

because we are seeing more powers coming to the Scottish Parliament,

we have seen a huge trade -- change on the Europe argument. Most people

would like to see a discussion about the European relationship.

wonder about the campaign over all? The leadership campaign, as Hick

been a fair fight? Yes I think it has. I only have issues

individually about coming in as the last to declare, in fact the only

one to declare within the timescale. How can you hope to lead the party,

given at this stage you don't have the backing of a single MSP?

Everyone who knows this taxing process, you decide your leaders,

any one that has done that, if they win the vote deserves to lead the

party, it is as simple as that. I have been fighting a positive

campaign. Murdo Fraser? Overall it has been Firth. All candidates have

been able to go out there and speak to members. We have well-attended

hosting meetings. I have been in the Borders tonight speaking to

members and I have done 20 stops around the country meeting members.

What have you been complaining to the party chairman about? They

don't want to talk about internal party matters. You are not denying

there has been a complaint? I am not denying a complaint. What is

your problem? I have been setting out my positive agenda and big idea

to take the party forward. I want to talk about my positive idea and

not about internal party matters. It only started when I was written

up as a front runner. What has been going on? I do not really know, if

they have been complaints to the party, it is for the party to

decide. Your campaign manager said there had been a deliberate,

vicious attempt to discredit you? There has been a number of articles

in one specific newspaper that seemed to look as if they have been

on a campaign. Have you been getting special treatment from

people in the hierarchy of the party? No I haven't. There has been

some different language use but I think it has been a lack of

experience for people campaigning in this election. I use saying

David does not have experience, or does Ruth have experience? This is

the first time we are electing a leader for the whole of the party,

and it helps if you have a feel for it. I think Experiences something

which informs what you do subsequently. How did you manage to

lose a Tory targeted seats and Holyrood to Labour? We had other

results similar to that in Scotland. I think it plays to the fact we did

not have a message that was appealing to people. We don't have

a organisation on the ground which is capable of winning elections.

Not your fault? I take my share of the responsibility. Annabel Goldie,

who was on television leading up to the campaign, her share of the vote

fell as well. Until we get that message right and says something

people feel is a meaningful to them, they are back in the language of 30

years ago and that is what they think we stand for today. When did

you become a member of the Conservative Party? I put in my

application to join the Conservative Party the day I put in

my application for redundancy at this place, the BBC. What do you

think you have got to lead the party? I have been a broadcast

journalist for years and I have interviewed criminals and

politicians and sometimes you cannot tell the difference. They

have been a lot of people who have been switched off by what we have

said in the past. We have had excellent leaders in the past, and

whoever wins this will be less popular in the public to an Annabel

Goldie. We need to have a rethink and a new start with a new centre-

right party. The others have just described the cosmetic changes. We

have to get out and work for the people so they look to our party as

the party that will solve their problems and respect, trust and be

motivated to vote for. We will see how you do. 10 days of voting left.

Some people will already have cast their vote and we find out the

results on November 4th. Thanks to all on our panel and the audience.

Sorry we did not have time for more questions. That does bring us to

the end of this special edition of the programme on the leadership of

the Scottish party. You can watch the programme again available on

the BBC iPlayer. There is more news as always on the BBC Scotland