14/11/2011 Newsnight Scotland


14/11/2011

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stakes in this powder keg of a Tonight on news night Scotland: A

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political row erupts as the Chancellor claims uncertainty

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caused by the independence referendum is discouraging

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businesses investing in Scotland. We'll hear from a Scotland office

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minister. And in the latest in our series of Labour leadership

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interviews, we speak to the man Ed Miliband called "the other

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excellent candidate", Ken Macintosh. Good evening. So who is scared of

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investing in Scotland? The Chancellor started a war of words

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at the weekend, when he told BBC Scotland that some of the world's

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largest companies are worried about putting money into Scotland because

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of constitutional uncertainty. He refused to name any of the firms.

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So is he scaremongering or reflecting genuine fears of big

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business? David Allison reports. The respect agenda has moved on,

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shuffled off or simply collapsed, depending on your point of view.

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Now thinly-veiled threats are becoming the order of the day.

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think the instability and the uncertainty that hangs over the

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Scottish economy because of Alex Salmond raising the prospect of

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independence without providing detail of when he wants the

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referendum, what the question would be, I think that uncertainty is

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damaging investment in Scotland. There are major businesses around

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the world who have asked me in the last year, tell us what's going on

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in Scotland. We're worried about making an investment in that

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country. I've told them, go ahead with the investment. I have to say,

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those questions are being asked. I think that is having a direct

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impact on Scottish jobs and Scottish prosperity.

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That's stuff and nonsense from George Osborne. He can't name a

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single company. I can point to the great companies of the world like

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Amazon, companies which have invested in Scotland in the last

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few months. Indeed, as leader of team Scotland, the First Minister

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has often been present at announcements, such as wind turbine

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producer, or Doosan power services or the Swiss banking software firm

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Avolok. Or Amazon creating a new centre in Dunfermline. Who are the

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companies thinking twice about investing in Scotland? I don't want

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to go into the specific companies, by I can tell you they are some of

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the largest companies in the world. These are private conversations

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I've had. I have to say, always answer, invest in Scotland.

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today the MD of bab cock's marine division insisted his firm is A

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political about independence. They said they serve a number of bodies

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and will never have a political opinion. But the local MP for the

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area asked the Defence Secretary what the company perhaps couldn't.

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Will he confirm if there was a separate Scotland the Ministry of

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Defence would have to look again at the long-term refitting options for

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our aircraft airiers? honourable gentleman is right, that

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it is unlikely that Her Majesty's forces would wish to use facilities

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in a fully interScotland in the way that they would wish to use

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facilities within the United Kingdom. What about business more

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generally? Are they asking questions? They have an open mind

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about the prospect for independence. When companies invest, they do a

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lot of dew diligence. -- due diligence. I don't think companies

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are persuaded that independence is going to happen. If one looks at

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all the opinion polls over time, it probably is unlikely. But that does

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not mean that they shouldn't ask the questions and undertake a risk

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assessment. It's entirely right that they should. Today the

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Scottish Secretary reiterated George Osborne's remarks about the

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uncertainty caused by the proposed independence referendum. Meanwhile,

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the SNP produced a list of 15 major companies concerned about the

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impact of the Chancellor's North Sea windfall tax. The challenge

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we've got is George Osborne's negative policies. That's dissuaded

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people from investing in the North Sea. A range of companies will sign

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up to that. That is the difficulty the Scottish economy has at the

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present moment. He's trying to blame everybody else, Europe,

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Scotland, everybody. With the referendum not happening

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before November 2013, this weather is set to be with us for a while.

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Earlier I spoke to the SNP Stewart Maxwell and Scotland office

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minister, David Mundell. I began by asking Mr Mundell if he could name

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any of the companies the Chancellor was talking about? I think

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obviously the Chancellor is in contact with a lot of British

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companies, a lot of multinational companies. He's involved in a lot

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of conversations which demonstrate whether businesses want to invest

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in Britain and in Scotland. Can you name of the companies? That sort of

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information is inevitably commercially sensitive. The

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Chancellor does have a clear impression of what businesses are

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saying about investing in Scotlandment Can you name any

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companies? Can you name any company?... We have the uncertainty

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over the independence referendum. Can you name a company which has

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raised a similar concern with you? I've raised this issue with a

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number of businesses and they have let me know that they do have a

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concern about the independence referendum and about what the

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future of Scotland is, about the uncertainty that sounds, surrounds

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the referendum, about the date, about the question, about the

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franchise. This is an unhealthy situation for business in Scotland.

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It needs to be resolved. The SNP Scottish government could resolve

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it now by coming forward with details of what the referendum will

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actually involve and when it will be held. How many multinational

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companies feel this way? I think it's quite clear that when

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businesses look at Scotland and think "Will this country continue

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to be in the EU? What currency will it have? What form of

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revelationship will it have with the rest of the United Kingdom and

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kfpbt answer that question, and these companies, as you know, do a

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lot of internal... Which companies?... Analysis. They look

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at different locations around the world for investment. Stewart

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Maxwell, from SNP, you're not a minister, maybe you're not party to

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that detail. You will have heard CBI Scotland today say that

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business is concerned and is making calculations that may well affect

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the amount of investment that the Scottish economy enjoys. I think we

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heard there in the answers or lack of answers from David Mundell very

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-- the very state of those who are trying to put forward a case forts

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union. If you're running a business you would ask these questions,

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wouldn't you? I'm afraid that the evidence is quite the contrary. We

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have an enormous list of companies who have invested, probably

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something like �1 billion over the last year in Scotland. They know a

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referendum is coming up. Companies like Amazon and Doosan have real

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confidence in the Scottish economy and in the confidence of the skills

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of the workforce. I can tell you about one big business, the UK

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Government, which spends a lot on defence contracts, which is

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indicated today through David Mundell's boss that Scottish firms,

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Scottish outfits would not be in the front line for orders in future,

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if Scotland was an intercountry. think that's frankly ridiculous.

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Most Scots will be absolutely sick to the back teeth of UK ministers

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talking Scotland down and talking high quality, high skilled

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workforces around the country, who could easily bid for this work and

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I'm sure would win the work in the future. You have to remember that

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the UK was signed up to the European defence procurement

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programme by the Labour Government, supported by the Tories and the

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liberals, that means there's open competition for defence contracts

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across Europe. Isn't there to be a level playing field across the EU?

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The first issue that comes to mind is whether Scotland would even be

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in the EU. That question has been raised in recent consideration of

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that issue. If the Scottish Government is confident that post-

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independence that Scotland would even be in the EU, they should

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publish their advice which supports that. A Scotland out with the EU

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would certainly not be able to attract the level of investment

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that it has previously. It wouldn't have the sort of level playing

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field that Stewart Maxwell talks about. The future relationship with

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the EU is just one of the very many uncertainties that surrounds

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independence, because we don't have a definition of what independence

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involves and we don't have a time scale for a referendum about

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independence. I'm really getting a bit sick of this. I'm sure many

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people are as well. You're supposed to be Scotland's man in the Cabinet,

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but here you are... He's not in the Cabinet yet. A minister then,

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certainly in the UK Government. Talking Scotland down, and telling

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us how awful it's going to be. on a minute why don't you tell us

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when you're going to have your referendum? Well, we'll have it in

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the second half of this Parliamentary session. We have said

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it and we have repeated that. published a question in the last

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Parliament, when you said you would move towards holding a referendum.

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Any reason to doubt that a question of the same nature won't appear on

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the ballot paper when eventually you get round to a referendum?

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referendum will happen. It will happen in the second half of this

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Parliamentary term. There will be a clear yes/no question on

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independence. On inds or on empowering the Scottish Government

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to empowering a settlement to lead to independence? There has to be an

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advisory referendum because that power is reserved. The wording will

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be clear and it will be clear we're talking about independence for

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Scotland. That's a fact. Everybody will know that's it. David Mundell,

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if you're so worried about uncertainty, why don't you call the

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referendum or put the Scottish Government's ability to hold it

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beyond legal doubt by passing legislation to that effect? I think

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at this stage, we want to hear what the Scottish government proposed.

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Stuart's given more information than the First Minister or his

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Government gave about what the terps of the referendum are. I hope

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that they will be now more forth coming and tell us what they

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propose. Then we can make a judgment on its legality, on

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whether we think that the terms of it are fair, you know, we have

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issues around, for example, whether the Electoral Commission would be

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involved. It seems very odd that the Scottish government don't want

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them to be involved in this referendum. But as the Chancellor

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said, the ball's in their court. Let's hear what they propose and

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end this uncertainty. David Mundell and Stewart Maxwell thanks both

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very much. Now Ed Miliband described him as

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the third candidate, who's also putting himself forward. He

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couldn't quite remember his name. That slip helped to draw attention

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to Ken Macintosh and in a moment, he'll be here for the second of our

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interviews with those hoping to lead the Labour Party in Scotland.

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If he struggles to be recognised in his own party, what hope does he

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have of becoming its next leader. Ken Macintosh has been a member of

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the Scottish Parliament from day one. He's one of a few original

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MSPs never to have been given a ministerial role. Of the three

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candidates vying for the leadership, the former BBC producer is arguably

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the lowest profile among voters. Recently even slipped the mind of

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the UK party leader. Can you name the three of them? What I say

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there's Tom Harris, erm... Joanne Lamont, and a third candidate who

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is also putting himself forward. is the front runner, Ken Macintosh.

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Ken Macintosh, yeah. You can't name him. He is going to be an excellent

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candidate. I forget the names of my kids half the time. It show that's

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politicians are human. Macintosh was first to put himself

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forward as a replacement for the outgoing leader Ian Grey. He

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describes himself as a devolutionist. He promised to put

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jobs, the economy and education at the top his priorities. He also

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described May's Holyrood election as disastrous, saying the party

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needed to get better at listening to its own members. We need to

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unite as a party and start talking positively about what we believe in,

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go out and talk to people about their lives and how we can make a

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difference in those lives. That way we cannot just unite as a party,

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but unite Scotland. He's shown he can come out top in a political dog

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fight, as his party suffered defeat after defeat at the last election,

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in areas once considered strong holds, Macintosh held on to his own

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seat in the face of a strong Tory challenge to his redrawn

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constituent. Ken Macintosh is here now. Why you? The clue is partly

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there, the election in May, which was a disaster for Labour, had a

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few chinks of light. One was in East woord where we won by 2,000

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votes. Wasn't that an anti-Tory move? Partly it was. But there are

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other factors. We have to have a broad appeal. In Eastwood I have to

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win traditional Labour voters, but there aren't enough. I have to

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reach out beyond that. That's the message I want to get across now.

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I'm worried that the Labour Party, following defeat, sticks on the

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familiar course and sticks with the familiar and more of the same. But

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we can't do that. We're on a steady decloin and we'll continue to lose

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votes if we go that way. We need to reach out and become the voice of

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Scotland. Make sure that people from all over think the party is

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listening and speaking for them. Stkp if you're the right guy, if

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you're so good, why were you never chosen for Government in eight

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years when Labour had power? There are several reasons. I was a

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ministerial aide quite early on. It's the first step on the greasy

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pole. The trouble was, not the trouble, I stood by my constituents.

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I voted against my party and my own Government on the removal of A&E

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services from the Victoria Hospital. I had to resign as a result. I was

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in the political wilderness on the backbenchs for several years.

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were punished for that? Yes. I didn't expect to be pun ished for

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quite as long. When we went back in opposition I was promoted back to

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the frontbench. I think my talents have been recognised. When you put

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your constituents first, as I did there, then clearly you're putting

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you're career on the back burner. What kind of leader would you be?

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Are you a socialist? Yes, I am. I'm proud to be a socialist. In what

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way? I believe in equality, fighting against injustice.

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Scotland a fantastic country, but this is a wealthy country, with one

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in five children in poverty. That's not right. That's the reason I'm in

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the Labour Party to tackle that. We can do things now. We can tackle it

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now with the powers we have in this Parliament. Is it your socialism

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that led you to suggest that the real franchise should be taken back

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into -- rail franchise should be taken back into public ownership.

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think it should be a mutual, not for profit. Some would say that's

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not public ownership. It takes legislation at Westminster to make

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it nationalised. With independence perhaps? Potentially. I'll be

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interested to see if the SNP ever propose it. It's a dividing line

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between us or the SNP. I would certainly take, end the ScotRail

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franchise, which is a �300 million subsidy to a private company, going

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up to �500 million and the SNP, who are looking at public transport and

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bus regulation, chucked all those out when they received money from

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private donors. You make a connection between the two things?

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I absolutely make a connection, yeah. Absolutely. You mean their

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policy was bought? I think it was compromised. It was tested, their

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belief in whether or not public transport should be run in the

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public interest was tested at that point. I think it was found wanting.

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In our case, we would run, I'm not interested in private - good,

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public-bad. I'm interested in a mixed economy. We have a private

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company running services in Scotland. It's a monopoly. It's not

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working for us. Would you tackle Scottish water? No I think

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everybody is happy with it being a public company. You were talking

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about the SNP and how you would differ from the Nationalists in

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power, of course you have to beat two Labour rivals first. What is

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the difference between you and the other two? Both of them are

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colleagues and friends. I'm not going to compare myself with them.

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You have to do that to some extent. The party needs to change and I

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offer the biggest change F you're looking for a fresh voice for the

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Labour Party in Scotland, if you want to broaden your appeal, if you

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want to talk about hope and optimism in Scottish life and talk

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positively, because in the past - You said earlier you were a

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socialist, are you more of a socialist than Joanne Lamont?

:18:51.:18:57.

centre of the party as far as I can tell. A centrist socialist? There's

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not many people in the Labour Party would deny being a socialist. I

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don't think there's any point in that. Why do the big trade unions

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back Joanne Lamont and not you? have big trade unions. The biggest

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ones back her. That's for them to decide. I happen to know the vote

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in the GMB and the other unions was very, very close, very close indeed.

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I don't think you can read more into it. The union members will

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make up their own minds how they vote. Are you happy to wait for the

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SNP to call its referendum? No, but it's up to the SNP to do so. We

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have not got a mandate to interfere. They won the election. They're

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elected on that mandate. They should call the referendum. I would

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rather have it sooner than later. Ken Macintosh, thank you for

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talking to us. A look at tomorrow's front pages. The Herald going with

:19:52.:19:55.

defence jobs. The Scotsman with a similar headline. That's all we

:19:55.:19:58.

have time for tonight. Watch again on the iPlayer. From all of us,

:19:58.:20:08.
:20:08.:20:12.

Hello there. Pretty grey first thing on Tuesday morning. Another

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drab start to proceedings. Unlike Monday, hopefully it will get

:20:16.:20:18.

brighter through the day, particularly through the south and

:20:18.:20:21.

parts of Wales. Like Monday, North West England and western Scotland

:20:21.:20:25.

should be favoured for a little bit of sunshine. To the east, I think

:20:25.:20:30.

it will stay mostly overcast. A lot of cloud too for the Midlands.

:20:30.:20:32.

Brightening up through East Anglia and the southern counties of

:20:33.:20:36.

England, we should get a bit of sunshine, lifting temperatures into

:20:36.:20:42.

the teens. Like Monday, west Wales should see some sunshine. Elsewhere,

:20:43.:20:46.

it will be fairly cloudy, but perhaps brighter than it was on

:20:46.:20:50.

Monday. A lot of cloud covering Northern Ireland as well. But again,

:20:50.:20:54.

along the north coast it may cheer up and temperatures could respond,

:20:54.:20:58.

up to 12 degrees Celsius. North West Scotland will be favoured for

:20:58.:21:02.

sunshine and maybe not as much fog around here, as during Monday. The

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eastern side of Scotland stays rather grey. Wednesday should be a

:21:05.:21:09.

bit brighter, again. A better chance of seeing some sunshine. We

:21:09.:21:12.

could see thickening cloud bringing rain into Northern Ireland later on

:21:12.:21:15.

Wednesday. That cloud could also bring rain into parts of South

:21:15.:21:20.

Wales and maybe the far South West of England. We will see the cloud

:21:20.:21:23.

increasing, certainly across Devon and Cornwall, rain arriving here

:21:23.:21:29.

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