24/11/2011 Newsnight Scotland

can't know where public opinion will end up.

On Newsnight Scotland: Around 40 couples are forced to marry against

their will every year and those are just the ones we know about. From

Monday, new laws come into force to outlaw the practice. How will they

work, and will they make any difference?

Good evening. It's almost impossible to get a truly accurate

picture of how widespread forced marriages are in Scotland, with

those involved often too scared to come forward. The new law's

ambitious aim is to stamp it out altogether, with the threat of a

two-year prison sentence or heavy fine for anyone breaching new

protection orders. Julie Peacock has been speaking to one woman who

managed to escape being made to marry against her will. She still

fears for her safety, so we agreed It's supposed to be one of the

happiest days of your life, but it isn't like this for everyone. Some

people are coerced, threatened and forced into marriage. Often with

someone they barely know. The numbers are small, approximately 40

cases a year in Scotland. This woman was almost one of that number.

It began as a family holiday to India but one evening she realised

a family party was actually to celebrate her engagement. It wasn't

until we got to this guy's house and we sat down and I realised that

I had been set up. I wasn't going out for dinner. It was dinner, but

it was dinner with this guy who I was getting engaged to. I said,

"I'm not happy with this." Mum said, "Everyone's here, everyone's

watching, you have to do this. As your dad says." I don't think I had

it in me to embarrass my parents or anything. So I just, I went ahead

with it at the time but I was so - I think I was embarrassed. I

thought, "I was supposed to be happy and I'm not." I couldn't

bring myself to look at the guy. She told me she knew they weren't

compatible but refusing wasn't an option. I thought to myself, "How

will I get him to change his mind?" I made out I was a slut or

something, I said to him, "I sleep around, I drink alcohol all the

time. I'm getting raped every night." That was not me. It didn't

work. He wasn't caring. He said to me, "Look, I admire you for being

honest with you." I thought, "What have I done?" It didn't work for me.

I didn't see it as being forced at all. My mum said to me, "Do it for

me, do it for your dad, do it for family." I thought, it was me doing

the right thing. I didn't realise I was being forced. Her only option

was to agree to the marriage as a way of getting out of the situation.

So the only way to put it off was to say, "We will get married next

year." That was my way of getting back to the UK. If I said, "It is

not happening whatsoever, they would force me right into it and

get the marriage done there and then." It was only when she got

back to Glasgow that she felt safe to call it off. I said to my mum,

"Look, it is not happening, I'm not doing it, end of." After that,

every day there was an argument, there was total drama and I was

crying all the time. They said, "You are a disgrace, people are

saying if we had a daughter like you, they would cut you up and

throw you away." I said, "Why don't you?" Over the next few months, the

pressure from the family increased. Everywhere I was going, I had

people following me. My mum and dad would turn up at my work to check

on me. I had my mobile and laptop taken off me. I had no contact with

my friends. My life was in my bedroom and that was it. I would go

to my room and they would have dinner, I was a disgrace, I brought

shame on them. Most of the reported cases of forced marriages in

Scotland were Muslim. Why are we going ahead with it? It is against

Islam to force anyone to marry. We have all got rights. Our religion

gives us rights. She was lucky. Her parents accepted her decision and

they are now rebuilding their relationship. She welcomes the new

law but says it needs to be backed up with education. It probably

still would have happened if the law had been in place, my parents

would have still done the same thing, even if it was against the

law to force me. They don't understand. Even to this day, they

still don't see it as forced marriage. They still see it as an

arranged marriage. I think there is a lot to be done to tell the

parents they can do that. It is great that they have put this law

in place. They need to explain exactly what forced is.

MacKenzie could see parents facing a two-year -- the new law could see

parents facing a two-year jail term. I know I wouldn't. I had a very

close relationship with my mum and dad growing up. It is something I

would never do unless my family was in complete danger and that's when

I would approach the police. law comes into force on Monday. But

there are many who believe it is only the starting point to making

all weddings happy occasions. Joining me now from Edinburgh is

Mohammed Akram, the President of the Council of British Pakistanis,

and Mridul Wadhwa from Shakti Women's Aid. And here in Glasgow is

Smina Akhtar, the director of the charity, Amina, the Muslim Women's

Resource Centre. Can we begin with you, first? One of the questions

which the woman in that film asked there was when this new law comes

in, what would be useful is to explain what the law means by

"forced". Give us an indication what that word means? The actual

legislation does explain very well what is meant by "forced". Force is

coercion, threats, parents saying, "We are going to disown you" or,

"I'm going to kill myself if you don't do this." So it is mental as

well as physical? Psychological, physical, also trying to force

somebody who is not able to consent, somebody who may be has learning

difficulties, mental health problems, or somebody who is under

age where it becomes child abuse as well as well as a forced marriage.

So force is well explained but the issue is it needs to be explained

to the community because I would agree with the young woman who

spoke there on the film that I don't think that people in the

community know what is meant by "force" in the legislation. Because

they might be forgiven for thinking we would like our young son or

daughter to get married, we believe we have found an appropriate person

for them to have a relationship with, and in any family environment

that might lead to pressure. But it is knowing when those pressures

have broken the law. That is going to be difficult? It is going to be

a difficult law to implement but I think it can work if it is used

alongside other processes like mediation, services, advocacy

services where we can work with agencies like ourselves in Shakti,

can work with potential victims and as the young woman said, she would

never have actually gone to the police. That is something that we

will experience. It's - I believe that it is only when it is a matter

of life and death that people will - it is - the law will be the last

resort. It can probably be used as a threat. Let's pick up on that

point with Mridul Wadhura. Give us an indication of the scale of this

problem in Scotland. It is difficult to come up with exact

figures. Some estimates are 40. How accurate is that? I think those are

the sort of reported cases of people who come forward asking for

help. The problem is probably bigger. As the case study showed,

or the woman's story shows, it's very difficult for women to come

forward and for us to identify what they have experienced is a forced

marriage. But I think the law is for those people who do come

forward. Each year, we have women, usually in the single digits,

coming forward, saying, "I am experienced forced marriage and I

need some help." The problem is underreported. Not fully

understood... What point when they have come to an agency like

yourself, are they at the point where the marriage is about to take

place, where there is physical abuse? At what stage are they by

the point they need that kind of help? There are different

situations. Usually they come asking for help when they have

exhausted all other avenues of resolving this issue within the

family. There isn't always physical violence. But they will ask for

help from agencies and outsiders when they feel that their point of

view is not being heard so they want to take assistance or advice

from somebody like Shakti. It varies but usually after they have

exhausted speaking to the family, or friends, or people that they

know. Mohammed Akram, give us your view on the potential scale of this

problem in Scotland? The scale is fairly well similar to what the

previous two speakers and your report indicated. It is important

to note that our research published in 2004 showed that 38% of the

victims were male, so it's both applies to men and women. I think

it may be helpful to the listeners to make a distinction between an

arranged marriage because we don't want to condemn arranged marriages

which is a marriage which takes place arranged by the parents but

with the consent of the two, of the both parties involved, where come

pattability and social background - - compatability and social

background is a big factor. My marriage was arranged 38 years ago

and it is happily going along despite the cold weather in

Scotland! LAUGHTER And my children who were born in this country are

working in the mainstream. Their marriages were arranged in this

country. They were initiated by us, but with their full consent. They

are all three happily married. you explain to us then, explain to

those who don't understand, how it can culturally be possible that you

would have these forced marriages? It is because there are loyalties

abroad, people trying to maintain links with the country of origin,

in my view erroneously. They fail to see the compatability factor of

somebody born and brought up in this country, which is the case,

marrying somebody from abroad, doesn't matter what the best

intention is for your child. It doesn't work. What needs to happen,

I think, both the previous two speakers and also the film shows

that you need to bring in a broad programme of education, of the

communities concerned. Can I pick up on that point with Smina Akhtar?

Is there a generational point here, which is if you want to maintain

those links with abroad, is there a difference between those who were

born abroad and then live here and wanting to maintain those links,

are they more likely to be responsible for forced marriages

compared to those who have spent their entire lives in Scotland?

don't think you can make that distinction. I mean, what you have

to remember is there are many marriages that are arranged between

people living in Scotland and between those living abroad. They

are not forced marriages. wondering on that point of

education, which is something all the speakers have mentioned, if you

need to educate the parents, where is this going to come from? We have

to educate the parents. As the young woman said... Where is that

attitude coming from, that forced marriages might be acceptable?

Often parents don't understand what "force" is. Go on, you know it is

good for the family. That starts, that is the beginning of force.

It's when that continues and gets worse and gets worse and when a

young person says, "No, I don't want to do that" and it is ignored,

that becomes force. We have spoken to many, many women in Scotland

from various different generations, young generations, older, who are

grandparents as well. They all say no, we would never ever force our

children, our grandchildren to marry against their will. I still

believe that they still don't understand what force means, what

the legislation defines. Mridul Wadhura, can you explain to people

because the case study in the film made this point which is the

importance it seems that shame plays in this. Explain to people

why that is such a powerful element in this? I think because often and

more so for women who we work with they are expected to behave in a

certain way and listening to your parents, or agreeing with the

decisions they are making for you, is vital and anything that moves

away from that, that is not fitting into their understanding of how a

daughter or a son should behave and seeking help from outsiders can be

considered shameful. So it is quite complex this concept of shame. In

the context of women in particular, if they don't agree and follow the

norms of the traditions of their family, or the culture that they

come from, and if they openly challenge it, and usually it means

going outside or using the law, going to the police, or involving

agencies that the family doesn't want them to involve can be

considered shameful as well. Therefore, is the solution that

more people ought to challenge it then? I think, yes, I think - I

agree with the other speakers. There needs to be greater

discussion on the differences between forced and arranged

marriages, not just within the communities, but I think people

outside of the communities where forced marriages happen should also

know that arranged marriages are good things and they are distinct

from forced marriages and yes, education is required but we also

need to look at gender empowerment as well. Unless we consider women

to be more equal, and take away this burden of shame that women

carry, it's not going to work. Mohammed Akram, do you think the

law will be effective? If you are talking about something which is as

important to families as marriage, then they are not going to consider

whether it is illegal or not, are they? They will think this is the

right thing, we believe this is the correct thing to do? I think the

law will be fairly ineffective. Fairly cumbersome to implement for

two reasons: First, it takes the easy option out to a very complex

problem. It gives the Government a "feel-good factor". But having said

that, there are a number of provisions in the law which would

be helpful, for example other areas of law concerning children. I think

the Court of Session has been fairly progressive in nullifying

the marriages which they have considered to be deemed to be

forced marriages in the past. The other thing which the - which would

be erroneous assumption to make would be that this is primarily a

domestic abuse issue. It goes much deeper than that. And therefore the

Government really needs to follow policies in line with the

legislation to basically carry out a broad programme for education. We

as representatives of various organisations shall say loud and

clear that this practice is unacceptable, it doesn't fit in

with ideology, it is outdated and people should grow up and get out

of this practice. Smina Akhtar, the courts saying a marriage is

annulled is one thing, but for religious reasons it might be the

case that the family will ignore that? How big a problem do you

think that is? I think it can be a problem because a marriage -

especially with Islamic marriages, with Muslim marriages, if a mairnl

is annulled in a court, it needs to be -- if a marriage is annulled in

a court, it needs to be annulled Islamically as well. In relation to

the point about educating parents, and families, it is very important

that we also empower young people... Education, all of you seem to be

saying education is a far more important element than the change

in the law? If people are going to come forward and say, "We are in

the process of being forced into marriage" or, "We have been forced

into marriage" then there are a number of support services out

there which can help if they do not want to go to court. If they do not

want to go to the police, to mediate. That law comes into force

on Monday. Thank you all very much indeed for joining us this evening.

A quick look at tomorrow's front- pages. Police probe hospital

patient privacy breach and society will have to suffer from Neets. The

Guardian, revenge of the middle manager. That is all from us.

It's a pretty wild night out there. Heavy rain and strong winds

sweeping down across the country. It will be chilly and the showers

across the north will be wintry. Further south, relatively few

showers. One or two getting down through the Midlands. Temperatures

will be up into double figures across southern areas. Lots of dry

weather across Southern England. A few showers getting down into

south-western parts of England by the end of the afternoon. They will

have moved through Wales with sunshine returning afterwards. 10

degrees in Aberystwyth so quite fresh, I would imagine. Positively

chilly further north. For Northern Ireland, sixes and seven also be

typical. A fairly wintry -- sevens will be typical. A fairly wintry

scene across the far north of Scotland. Now, across northern

parts of the UK, it stays disturbed as we go into the weekend. The rain

clouds gathering again. Further south, it will be drier, the winds

won't be so strong and generally it won't be a bad weekend. Plenty of