01/12/2011 Newsnight Scotland

Tonight on Newsnight Scotland. A former leader of the SNP tells us,

if Alex Salmond wants independence he should change course on gay

marriage. With the Church of Scotland now joining the protests,

is Gordon Wilson right? Is the whole issue of same sex marriage

turning into a Section 28 moment for the SNP?

Good evening. It may be an unlikely source, but organised religion,

rather than party political Opposition, is proving to be a most

effective block on Alex Salmond's ambitions. He's already run into

trouble with the Catholic Church over the anti sectarian legislation.

And now the Church of Scotland has given a firm no to his consultation

on same sex marriage. There are even warnings it could become an

issue in the independence referendum. We'll hear in a moment

from a former SNP leader. As Derek Bateman reports, it's a reminder to

politicians not to meddle in moral matters. And raises echoes of a

The division between Church and State is a facet of Commons

governments, whatever the constitution niceties, there are

times when you can't separate church from state from controversy.

No sooner had the parliament be established in the 1999 at than the

Labour Lib Dem coalition alighted in what they seem to think was the

talk of the town, the abolition of Clause 28, which prohibited the

promotion of homosexuality in schools. What many considered to be

a new Scotland, modern, liberal and inclusive, turned out to have an

unreconstructed aspect. We will not stand back and allow a politically

correct minority to undermine the important position of marriage in

our society and determine morality for the majority. We did not vote

for it. And we are not having it. Holy Father. Brian Souter had close

allies in the Catholic Church. A powerful lobby the SNP has been

quoting. I think the public in Scotland had waited long time for

the parliament, the expectations were sky high. Labour went into

that first parliament not having a proper policy agenda, so to then

the poll this rabbit out of a hat, an issue nobody had been talking

about, there was a feeling of general despondency that we had

voted in this parliament and this is the best they could come up with.

And when the issue of sill partnerships emerged, it gave

ministers the power to bless them but there was overturned by the

church, which allowed openly gay and lesbian ministers to remain in

place. But today, but liberal progress came to a juddering halt.

The Government's extension of our marriage rights to non- religious

marriage and gays. Until the General Assembly reviews has

reviewed its position, the position of the Church is quite clear,

marriage, as we understand it, and indeed as it is enshrined in Scots

law and Scotch culture, is that it is a union between one man and one

woman. John Mason, let's begin with you. Not just the Catholic

hierarchy has allies but SNP backbenchers. Aren't they supposed

to part of the new outward-looking SNP? I'm clear what the Bible says

and what many Christie Group say, and you know I'm in a Baptist

church and broadly what we believe. I am not wanting for Christian

views to be pushed on the rest of society. It was following scripture,

it said today, and that redefining moment has repercussions for the

well-being of families, the country and individuals. Same-sex couples

are not disadvantaged legally or financially by not being able to be

married. And there is, therefore, no need to rush this forward

without a much fuller debate. And in that debate, we would hope the

that the voices of the faith community in Scotland would be

heard. There are those in the SNP who believes pressing ahead with

legislation could to pay referendum vote against the party. Gordon

Wilson is part of the newly formed Scotland for marriage organisation.

If the Scottish government once the Scottish people to vote for

independence in a referendum, why is it going out of its way to

alienate so many Scots in the Christian and Muslim communities?

don't think this comes into play in terms of a referendum a tall,

because it's going to in the second half of the parliament. Whatever

happens with this will be ancient history by that point, and people

are not going to vote for the future of the country on the basis

of whether gay marriage is allowed. The rally outside parliament

yesterday brought together those from the Moslem Trinity at the

Church of Scotland, and the First Minister favours change. Could his

party split? For a submitted to be meaningful, you need a big beast in

a party to be heading up that action. And there isn't that at the

moment. He's got some trouble on his backbenches, but nothing which

would keep Alex Salmond awake at night. Nobody is using this as part

of a wider agenda to try to damage him or the Scottish government in

terms of the Cabinet, so I think it is a row he will not wanted to have

blundered into, but it's not one which will be meaningful. But it is

only a consultation. Time yet for the Government to extricate itself

from a troubled match. Now, as you may have seen in the

film, one of the leading lights in the campaign Scotland for Marriage

is former SNP leader Gordon Wilson. He's also chairman of SOLAS, the

Centre for Public Christianity. Earlier this evening, I asked him

for his response to the Church of Scotland's decision to oppose gay

It's very welcome. The Church of Scotland obviously takes some time

to think things out but it's now adding its weight behind the

campaign, which is rolling very satisfactory at this stage. What do

you think the Scottish government should do now? It depends which way

you look at it. As a professional politician of the past, my view is

we should never have got into this in the first place. Whether they

were blinded by electoral success or not, I don't know. The worry for

me, apart from the main issue of same-sex marriage should not be

compatible with marriage itself, is that, from the SNP aspect with a

referendum on independence coming, they are busy alienating voters.

And it's not the time to do it. It's never the time in politics to

do it, but not on the eve of a major event like a referendum on

independence, which used to be the main aim of the SNP. So you think

supporting this is a bad move for the SNP politically? I would have

thought so, judging from the information I have received. Also

judging by the reaction from the general public. Especially from

those who are married at the present time. What they are

proposing is unacceptable, and has alienated them from supporting them.

You seem to suggest it could even put in jeopardy the campaign for

independence? The object of the Rev Brendan is to win it, and if they

are not going to win it, you don't hold it. -- referendum. The

Government has pledged to go ahead. You have to play your cards with

the finesse, and make sure you can persuade the maximum number of

people. On a peripheral issue of this, in terms of demand, with only

3,300 civil partnerships in six years, compared with 175,000

marriages, they are not doing anything but to aid the cause, the

doubt for cause, of up political correctness. Are you seriously

suggesting people feel strongly enough on this that, by supporting

a same-sex marriage, the SNP is committing political suicide on its

main issue of independence? It I'm not saying political suicide, but

it's quite obvious, on the polls which already exist, the SNP is

going to have to work harder to win a majority in the referendum. Every

vote lost through alienation on this issue is a vote that could be

lost in the referendum itself. That is something that does not affect

me because independence for Scotland is very dear to my heart

and I shall vote for it, regardless, but there are other people to whom

it may have less importance, compared with their faith, their

beliefs, or revulsion at the thought the marriage they thought

they had entered into between a man and a woman was now going to be

tainted in some ways. If I was Alex Salmond, I would say, I respect

your point of view in this, however, opinion polls show a majority, a

substantial majority, of people in Scotland are in favour of same-sex

marriage, so the idea that somehow or I am jeopardising independence

by supporting it is nonsense. knows, of course, I have

considerable experience banning the political campaigns, and this one

has just beginning to run. -- a running. It has attracted a lot of

support, bringing the Muslims, the Catholic Church, the Free Church,

the Baptist Union, and also, outside the churches, people, who

do not go to church, or Christian, but are not complete the dedicated,

they just feel this is not a proper way of going about it. Alex is a

considered politician and I wouldn't attempt in any way to

outguess him. But I would think he would have to think twice, for

example, a lot of support for same- sex marriages in the one poem I

have seen, is shallow. -- poll. It comprises people who may not be

married, people who may not intend to get married but I can tell you

this, amongst those who are married and disagree with same-sex marriage,

being redefined to encompass marriage as a whole, between same-

sex couples and opposite sex couples, as the Government and

charmingly describes it,, people will feel more deeper about it and

they will vote, whereas many other people who say, oh yes, we are in

favour of it, they won't bother to But David Cameron has made it clear

but he intends to legislate for same-sex marriage in England, so

this is just a catch-up measure. It has incurred your measure by

choosing to go this way, but if he had chosen to go the other way, he

was equally vulnerable and it would have looked as though Scotland was

a backward country and it will it - - not doing what many would see as

a progressive piece of legislation? Maybe, but it is political

correctness. The implications for society are greater. What will

happen to marriage if, say, heterosexual couples decided not to

get married because it was tainted? Society can suffer if this happens

and it does not appear the government has done a proper front

-- analysis to see what the impact will be. So your message would be

to Alex Salmond, change your course and do it now? Well, he can do it

in a very clever way he normally does things.

I'm joined now by writer and commentator Katie Grant, and from

Edinburgh by political columnist and biographer David Torrance.

David Torrance, what is your assessment of what Gordon Wilson is

saying? It -- is it a political threat to the SNP? I don't think it

is in practical terms. As Lorraine Davidson said in your film, it is

very small beer. Or Gordon Wilson is cleverly doing is playing on

fears within the SNP and annoying people by not voting yes to either

independence. There are a few avenues where the SNP has been

closing down annoyance, including the monarchy, among other things.

So Gordon Wilson is playing on that quite effectively. But you do not

think he would have much support for what he is saying within the

SNP, or do you? There is clearly some support. John Mason, his

motion which started this whole Row, and also another SNP MSP, so there

is a degree of support. It is not at a critical mass at this moment.

What is your take on this, Katie Grant? I think it is unlikely to

get away critical mass because of the language being used or stop

many Catholics will have been quite shocked by the Cardinal's language.

He is also in this Scotland for Marriage movement. The idea we all

want to talk about taint and those who are married, like myself, that

we might suddenly brush away from our marriages because we feel they

are tainted. I do not think it is a tall attractive to young people.

Young people who might, in a way, not wish to court gay marriage but

my is certainly be put off by the language being used. So Gordon

Wilson and the Cardinal are attacking it from the wrong angle

with the wrong kind of language. But if you are saying they are

wrong to do this, how do we explain the fact that all the main churches

and Muslim community now seems signed up for this? I'm not saying

the case should not be argued. They are right to argue it. How could

they not? For the Catholics in particular, it is part of what they

are. What Times saying is that the language used to argue their case

is very alienating. -- what I am saying. Particularly to young

people, who very my well vote for independence and are certainly not

going to be put off because of this issue. And equally well, they will

feel uncomfortable with some of the language being used even if they

agree with the premise. So even if the Church has got their act

together and argue a case in the way you would like them to, it is

unlikely to put people off voting one way or the other? I do not

think it would. But the language being used at the moment by a

Scotland for Marriage is quite alienating in itself. I do not see

how they hole to take his board. There is a paradox, because when

the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey asked people about this,

they got quite a large portion of people saying they were quite

relaxed about this. But in the referendum, one in four adults

voted against abolishing Section 28, so we have a bit of a mixed bag?

would suggest that the referendum was not scientific or rigorous in

that way. Up until the 1990s, interestingly, Scotland was

actually quite conservative and to the right of England on these dealt

with issues. Abortion, divorce and homosexuality. In the past few

years, we have seen a shift and now 61% of Scots support same-sex

marriage. Interestingly, for the Catholic Church and the show that -

- Church of Scotland, both of whom oppose this, the figures indicate a

number of their own followers who are at least relaxed about same-sex

marriage, so it is certainly the case for them that they are out of

kilter with even their own supporters. Do you think, Katie

Grant, and I am not sure what your position is, that you're against

same-sex marriages? No. I am relaxed about it. Can I ask you to

play devil's advocate? You felt they were using the wrong arguments.

Even if you did not agree with it, what do you think the Church should

be saying? The Church can argue their case but they should argue it

in a Christian way. It is a miracle, frankly, that anybody wants to

become married in a church when they use such dreadful language

about other people. If I were the Church, I would have approached it

from a different way and said, this is what we believe. We live in a

world now where we don't want to alienate or be aggressive. I would

have used much more peaceable language and much more debatable

language that people felt they could debate, when I think the

language that has been used cuts the debate off at his source. There

is no point and having a consultation when people are

talking about "at painted" and "has become more". They might have

brought a whole load of people with them if they had used other

language. People in the pews will not agree but the hierarchy and are

even less likely to agree now. Scotland for Marriage - the whole

thing. It seems confused. We talked earlier on about whether the SNP

was at risk because of this campaign Gordon Wilson is involved

in. You were suggesting they were not. Other churches at risk?

Because of what Katie Grant is saying. Church attendances are not

exactly rocketing, are they? Are they at risk of having what remains

of their credibility damaged by this? In the case of the Church of

Scotland, this does look very odd, though I suspect their position has

more to do with internal matters. They have had a fractious time over

this issue in other respects, of course, and perhaps they do not

want to antagonise the evangelical wing. But I do foresee difficulty

for the SNP on this if the consultation ends and they come out

unequivocally for gay marriage and civil and religious. That will

annoy the Catholic Church. Alex Salmond has gone out of his way to

court. But if they've budget, as Gordon Wilson was suggesting, -- if

they've fudged it, they might be able to do that without supporting

civil marriage but not full marriage. We have to leave it there.

A quick look at the front pages. The Financial Times leading with

the present crisis and talking about fuel poverty in The Guardian.

Good evening. Turning out to be take-off at -- quite a cold night

with a fairly widespread frost. A chilly start to Friday morning with

patches of ice overnight. Through Friday, most places will have

Beeson sunshine but it will tend to turn cloudy in the West as we go

through the afternoon. In the East, some decent sunshine. As we travel

further west, it is here where we will notice the freshening south-

westerly breeze up, and eventually we will have outbreaks of rain

moving in, following the cloud. It turns cloudier on Friday afternoon

with rain pushing into western counties, with quite damp weather

for the Isle of Man. Temperatures are at around four, five degrees

for Northern Ireland with outbreaks of rain, and turning to snow over

the Scottish mountains before milder air moves in. For Friday and

Saturday, we start to lose the outbreaks of rain and it should be

drier through England and Wales over the weekend. The exception is

several parts on Saturday, where we will see outbreaks of rain. The