10/01/2012 Newsnight Scotland

be the biggest one of our political lives. It is important we get it

Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, more on the independence referendum.

The provisional date is set for autumn 2014, but will the UK

government get its way on the single question and who can vote?

We'll hear from the First Minister and more from the Secretary of

State for Scotland. Good evening. After years of debate,

we finally have a date, or a season, at least. The Scottish Government

revealed they want to hold their independence referendum in the

autumn of 2014. The First minister, Alex Salmond, made the announcement

just as the Scottish Secretary, Michael Moore, was telling the

House of Commons any such ballot would be illegal. Perhaps it was

coincidence. Either way, get used to the constitutional brinkmanship.

There's going to be a lot more of it over the next 30 months or so.

Our own David Allison watched the power politics unfold.

Today was the date at Westminster was to wrestle back control events

from the SNP. UK government accepts the referendum could come pick when

the referendum takes place but they wanted to make it clear it could

only happen legally if they allow it. This is not about the mandates

of Scotland's two governments or hoof calls the shots. It is about

our ability to take part in a legal referendum. If that means

Westminster has to give Scotland a powers to hold a referendum which

they are otherwise cannot do legally. But as well as being

illegal, a referendum must be fair and decisive. For those reasons,

the roles of the referendum must be them off -- demonstrably above

board. The referendum should be overseen by those who have

neutrality and the proven expertise to inspire confidence in the

fairness of the process, such as the Electoral Commission. Despite

still licking its wounds and picking itself up after two

election defeats, Labour remains Scotland's largest Unionist party.

It also still has two conflicting also a mores to ride. -- horses.

must not turn into Red Paddy fight between the two things Scott

lumberjacks. Separation and the Tories. -- into a petty fight two

things Scotland rejects. We must now move as quickly as possible on

to a debate of substance that puts Scotland's people and interests

first. No -- never before has the SNP been so close to in depend --

establishing Scotland as an independent country. Why it is it

that this Westminster government is trying to dictate terms about the

referendum to the democratically elected Scottish government which

has a mandate on this issue? Specifically, why is the

Westminster government seeking to dictate the date of the referendum?

Why is that they are seeking to dictate the questions on the ballot

paper? And why is it that the Westminster government is seeking

to exclude 16 and 17-year-olds from this important and historic

referendum? Meanwhile, in Edinburgh at the Scottish cabinet meeting,

they came up with an announcement a role for the UK Government. They

had a date for the referendum. Autumn 2014. The year of the

Commonwealth Games in Glasgow and not to mention, the Ryder Cup at

Gleneagles. As well as the anniversary of the Battle of

Bannockburn. It is the most important decision we have ever

taken for 300 years. We have just passed out consultation papers and

that goes out to the people of Scotland and has looked at every

scenario. We know the right time for this referendum is autumn 2014.

That way, we can have the preparations properly laid and

everything tested and the arguments put forward so that the people can

have the fullest opportunity to make this great decision for

Scotland and that is the bit we are proposing for consultation with the

people of Scotland. That is the right way to do things because this

is an issue for the people of Scotland to be decided and debated

by the people of Scotland. The date of the referendum was discovered by

a question by a Labour MP. understand that he has made an

announcement that there is to be a referendum in order and 2014. Would

he give us reaction to that if it is true or not? The debate over

timing of this referendum was one I anticipate will take place for a

long time to come. Today was a battle for the initiative. Now at

last, we have a date for winning the hearts and minds of voters.

Earlier, I spoke to the First Minister, Alex Salmond, from his

official residence in Edinburgh. I asked him why he'd decided to go

for 2014, which just happens to be the year the Ryder Cup is at

Gleneagles and Scotland hosts the Commonwealth Games. I think autumn

2014 is the right of way to look at it. We cannot have the summer. Not

because of anything to do with the Battle of Bannockburn. But we're

not going to have a campaign period that gets underway of either the

Commonwealth Games or the Ryder Cup, which John major events. That

leaves the opening of 2014. -- which are both major events. Would

you say there is no elect or mandate for his second choice on

the ballot paper? We will offer people the chance for economic

powers through the referendum. We have decided that while we were

committed to the question on Scottish independence, that is our

preference, that we were open to arguments about having a question

on devo max. That remains an opposition. When you look at the

discussion paper will release, you will see it is perfectly consistent

with what we have said before. I know it is that our Unionist

opponents, even in the Commons today, they'll be going to

acknowledge their historic result of the Scottish elections and the

remarkable achievement of winning an overall majority in Parliament.

That indisputable mandate. Then, unfortunately, they do not do

anything about it. Whether it is about putting things forward for

Scotland Bill, it should be a referendum made and built in

Scotland, produced by the Scottish Parliament and then decided on by

the wisdom of the Scottish people. The acknowledgement of the man they

should be more than words. The respect agenda should be more than

words. -- the acknowledgement of the mandate. Perhaps things will

improve as they begin to accept the realities of Scottish democracy.

But you could tidy this up by accepting the transfer of power

from Westminster to Holyrood. Because all the UK Government is

trying to do is to make sure the referendum is fair and decisive?

Yes. And we have a different legal interpretation. And it is not just

us, it is part of constitutional law separating the powers of the

Parliament. I have got no objector whatsoever to section 30 of the

Scotland Act and indeed, we suggested it. -- no of objections.

My objection is that from David Cameron, and to a lesser extent,

Michael Moore, they would conduct a referendum by proxy. I think that

given the disastrous reaction it is having on the streets and in the

communities of Scotland, I think both the Conservative and Liberal

parties will think twice about the wisdom of trying to gazump a

highjack of the Scotland referendum. So it is three by 2016? I don't do

slogans like that anymore. I am saying that the Scottish people

will be asked to make a historic decision in the autumn of 2014, and

that will be a period that allows all the information and arguments

to be deployed, and I have faith in the wisdom and judgment of the

people of Scotland. Earlier, I asked Michael Moore about whether

he preferred -- accepted the preferred date of autumn 2014?

think it is very important we have a referendum where everybody can

participate and we have to be confident of the result it holds.

What I was setting out in the Commons today was my view and that

of my colleagues that as things stand, the Scottish Parliament does

not have the legal power to hold a referendum. With the youth call it

a visor read or legally bound in. - - whether you call it. -- advisory.

I think it is right we get the legal basis sorted so I hope now to

be able to work with our colleagues in the Scottish government to

devolve the power to the Scottish Parliament so we can have a

referendum that is properly made in Scotland, that is legal, that the

rules of fair, and then when we get the outcome, it is clear cut and

decisive. Then we can live with the result. I am confident that we have

that referendum and then people will decide to remain part of the

United Kingdom. But the data autumn There is a danger about prolonging

the period before we make this decision that will affect jobs and

investment plans. It is not good for anybody as we plan our future.

We have got the opinion of the First Minister today. I welcome

that contribution to the debate, which I hope he also accepts will

involve all people in Scotland. Over the next couple of months, we

will be asking people when they want to have this referendum. We

need to hear the voices of people across the country. Wigan have

illegal, fair and decisive referendum. It seems as if Alex

Salmond needs to ask your permission before who holds a

referendum? That -- the people expect everyone to work together.

We have very strongly acknowledged that the SNP's victory, and their

desire to have a referendum on independence. We need to make sure

that by working with them, we can have a referendum that will not

mean that this decision is decided in the courts rather than by people

in a ballot box. I am hopeful we can work together, and the First

Minister and others can see the reasonable suggestion we are making,

and then we can get on with that. We need to have a debate about our

future inside the most successful partnership of nations in history,

or out doing their own thing. proud of the way the UK government

has handled this issue? -- are you proud. People in Scotland will want

to see all the politicians are working together, the two

government. We need to make sure we have a properly conducted

referendum campaign that people can be confident that they are fair

rules, and that when we get the result, it is decisive and pledge

card, and nobody can argue about what it means. -- and clear cut. We

have the chance to make that to happen. And one way to see that

happening is transferring powers to Holyrood. I am keen to work with

the Scottish government to make sure they have that power, and also,

I want people across the country to enter a debate about how that a

referendum should be conducted. When you have the electoral

commission, overseeing all elections across the UK, who had

supervised the referendums in all parts of the UK, they have got a

track record and are neutral and are beyond approach. That can give

confidence to people in Scotland that we will have a fair referendum.

It is entirely sensible that people consider that idea. Might view is

that we are looking at getting a legal referendum that was a fair

set of rules, and that will, in the end, provide an outcome we can all

accept, and not end up deciding this in the courts.

I'm joined now form Westminster by the Shadow Scottish Secretary,

Margaret Curran. How would you react to this campaign, which is

underway? We have made it clear that we think of the referendum

should be sooner rather than later. The New Labour leader said she

hoped that the referendum would to be in 2013. It is a coincident in

but we have this announcement from Alex Salmond. That is not what SNP

members were saying yesterday. But, I think the debate is on. Let us

have this debate. I think this is a clear expectation. This is a

momentous decision. Let us get on with it. Unlike the UK government,

they do not seem clear about whether they support the timetable.

Are you relaxed about it? I would much prefer us to have the

referendum now. I cannot understand the reason why it's a separatist

party, whose lifetime caused his separation, why they are hesitating

at all about it. They say it is a solution to every challenge

Scotland faces. Why do not want to delay that. What is Labour's

offering going to be in this campaign? Are you going to take

your traditional devolutionary point of view, which is that

Holyrood it needs more powers? I tell you the authoring that

Scottish Labour will bring to the debate? An argument about this

future of Scotland. We have a new leader, and we have regrouped

significantly. The best way to show faith to the Scottish people is up

to give them the debate they expect a need. Opinion polls suggest that

Scottish people would like to see these Scottish Parliament given a

greater economic powers in particular. If you are consistent

with what you have said, Labour would advocate of greater economic

powers? No, that is not logical. There may be a case for greater

powers for Scottish Power's. -- Scottish Parliament. I have to say,

and I think that the vast majority of people concurred, that is a

different debate about whether it Scotland separates funded UK. That

is a fundamental, momentous decision, that we know. There is

consensus against all main political parties in Scotland but a

simple yes, no answer is the preferred answer. We need that

clarity with the Scottish people. That does not prohibit any

discussion we would want to have when the time is right about powers

for Scotland, and how we take Scotland into the future. And there

you are, standing with your allies want either side, the Liberal

Democrats and the Conservatives. do not think that is their. I am

not the type of person to dismiss arguments. -- that is fair. Michael

Moore said there is a legal argument that needs to be dealt

with here. The SNP needs to take that on. They need to publish legal

advice. They need to give us evidence and their side of the

argument. Michael mauled should give us the substance of the

argument in bolt. -- Michael more. -- at the substance of the argument

in full. I think we will hear many voices and see many figures

involved, and it is time for Scotland to have a debate, made the

decision, and Scottish Labour will play a big part of that.