Browse content similar to 02/02/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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wave of violence. Conspiracy theorists would say that is exactly | :00:02. | :00:12. | |
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Tonight a Newsnight Scotland: But toxic two on tour. The prospect of | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
Lord Forsyth and Lord Foulkes planning to join forces for a | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
Unionist roadshow has delighted nationalists. We will hear from one | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
of the noble Lord's about this outbreak of consensus. And after | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
several weeks of referendum wrangling, who is in the lead? We | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
will assess the latest polls. Could this be the Unionist dream | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
team? It emerged during the Scotland Bill debate that two | :00:40. | :00:47. | |
former ministers, are considering joining forces to convince Scots of | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
the benefits of the Union. How many people are to be convinced by a | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
self confessed toxic two remains to be seen. | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
Time seems to move a little bit more slowly in the Lords. But that | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
doesn't necessarily mean that nothing ever changes. The Scotland | :01:05. | :01:11. | |
Bill, after clause 14, Lord Foulkes. For a moment, it looked like a new | :01:11. | :01:17. | |
political force was emerging, uniting Lord Foulkes with the | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
Conservative Lord Michael Forsyth, the former Scottish secretary. | :01:20. | :01:26. | |
Would the toxic two hit the road? Maybe yes, maybe no. I think he and | :01:26. | :01:33. | |
I need to be careful. I think we will be appearing in the blogs as | :01:33. | :01:39. | |
an example of an unholy alliance. I suggested that we should form a | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
road show, and go around Scotland extolling the virtues of the Union. | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
The pair Rossouw in June that they both tabled similar amendments on | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
the Scotland Bill over the impact of tuition fees on students from | :01:48. | :01:56. | |
the rest of the UK. -- the pair are so in tune. Quite separately, | :01:56. | :02:02. | |
without any collusion. The reason I am saying this is because this off- | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
the-cuff comment following our recent discussions about the | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
roadshow, the toxic two, it has been picked up north of the border | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
and is already causing some interest. It was all getting a bit | :02:16. | :02:21. | |
heady. So Lord Forsyth 40 had to put a bit of a brake on. Just to | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
make sure that people realise that the noble Lord and I only agree on | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
some things, I might respectfully remind him that it was the Labour | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
government that introduced tuition fees. Meanwhile, it emerged that | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
Lord Foulkes is branching out on his own, calling for a double | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
referendum to determine Scotland's constitutional future. He has | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
tabled another amendment, posing two separate votes, the first on | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
independence. If that was defeated, a second of further devolution. It | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
has all been happening in the Lords today. | :02:54. | :03:00. | |
I am joined by Lord Foulkes and the SNP's Linda Fabiani, who chairs the | :03:00. | :03:06. | |
Hollywood Scotland Bill committee. The obvious question is if this | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
toxic two tour goes ahead, are there then used in Scotland which | :03:09. | :03:15. | |
would be big enough to host it? are jumping the gun. It was a | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
suggestion that Michael Forsyth made, as he said, off the cuff. I | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
think a much more important discussion is whether or not we | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
have one or two referendums. That is what I have been dealing with. I | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
have been putting down an amendment because there has been so much | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
debate about whether there should be one or two questions. You have | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
just left the entire nation down! Are you saying you are not going to | :03:38. | :03:44. | |
go around on a bus tour? Nothing has been agreed. I am involved in | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
the campaign, campaigning for the union. I'm glad to have enter a | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
debate with Linda Fabiani. I can't think of anyone nicer to have a | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
debate would. But it's important not to talk about that, an off-the- | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
cuff remark by Michael Forsyth. I think it's better to talk about the | :04:01. | :04:06. | |
substance. What I understood when I was invited by your producer to | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
come on was to talk about whether or not we have one referendum with | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
two questions or, as I am suggesting, two referendums. It is | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
far more logical to make a decision first about whether or not Scotland | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
is going to remain part of the United Kingdom. Only once that | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
decision is made can you follow it up. If we are in favour of | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
independence, there was no need for a further referendum. If | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
independence is rejected, we move on and decide what kind of | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
devolution we have. That can only be decided once we have made a | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
decision about independence or not. Right, what is wrong with that idea, | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
and Linda Fabiani? Isn't that fairly sensible? We have another | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
Labour and Tory coalition up ahead, I see. Maybe not, he doesn't want | :04:54. | :05:04. | |
:05:04. | :05:05. | ||
Of it was your SNP government for the last four years that was held | :05:05. | :05:14. | |
at, proper up by Annabel Goldie. -- propped up. Give Linda a chance to | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
have a say. What I was going to say is that we have a consultation out | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
so that everybody in Scotland can respond to that consultation about | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
how the referendum should be run. I think there should be respectful | :05:27. | :05:32. | |
that. I think people are engaged with it. If George wants to respond | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
to that, he should. I don't think it is it appropriate for folks | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
sitting in an unelected table -- chamber to try to tell Scotland how | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
we go ahead with a referendum. Don't be so coy, are you telling us | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
that you don't have any views on his proposal for a second | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
referendum because you are having a consultation? Well, it will be | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
considered along with lots of different views. I'm more | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
interested in the views of people of Scotland. We have | :06:00. | :06:02. | |
representatives of Civic Scotland Committee gather, to talk about the | :06:02. | :06:09. | |
potential of a second question. There is a lot to beat -- be | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
discussed. I think that is absolutely fair. The Westminster | :06:12. | :06:18. | |
government has a consultation out as well. I'm going to resist asking | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
you whether you have already made the T-shirts for the tour and ask | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
you a question you cannot complain is not substantial. Isn't there an | :06:26. | :06:32. | |
issue about the question about devo-max, whatever you want to call | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
it, that in the case of independence it is Scottish people | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
having a vote, self-determination, whatever they decide they go and do. | :06:40. | :06:46. | |
If they are voting on devolution plus, that affect the rest of the | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
United Kingdom. In the 1990s, the British government agreed what | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
devolution would be, everybody agreed and they put it to the | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
people of Scotland. I don't see how the idea of a second referendum | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
gets around that, that it is not really up to the people of Scotland | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
is sake they want this bit or that bit? I think that is a valid point. | :07:07. | :07:13. | |
Can I say to Linda that I will be submitting views to the Scottish | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
government and the Westminster government. Meanwhile, the House of | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
Lords is part of our constitution until we are reformed or abolished. | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
It is legitimate to debate this. I can understand your question. | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
Scotland needs to make a decision, first of all, about whether or not | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
we want to remain part of the United Kingdom. If we do, then we | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
move on to considering what kind of devolution, what level of | :07:38. | :07:44. | |
devolution we should have. Sub of gruel all suggesting, as you have, | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
-- some people are suggesting, as you have, that it is a matter for | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
the United Kingdom. I think the evidence shows it is a matter for | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
Scotland, principally. Not everybody in the Labour Party has | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
signed up to this and we can all discuss it. Other people will want | :08:00. | :08:07. | |
the status quo. Some people might want Calman or Calman plus. But you | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
cannot take the two decisions together. You can't make a decision | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
about the level of devolution until we decide whether or not we want to | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
be part of the United Kingdom. Linda Fabiani, the point I am | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
getting at, and it has implications for the SNP as well, you still seem | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
to harbour reservations about having a second question on the one | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
referendum paper. But devo-max or whatever you are going to call it | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
has to be more than an idea. If you say to people, do we want more tax- | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
raising powers in Scotland, a lot of people would say yes. Do you | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
want the welfare system in Britain to be broken up and the stabilising | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
effect it has on the economy, a lot of people might say they are not | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
sure. You have to specify precisely what you're asking. What you're | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
asking on independence is absolutely clear. What you are | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
proposing to ask people on devo-max is unclear. Our policy is very | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
clear, we believe in independence. So you did not want a second | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
question any more? We have never said we want a second question. It | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
has been quite clear. We would like a single question on independence. | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
But we have to show respect to those in Scotland who have said | :09:19. | :09:25. | |
they would like that option. I am really glad that Lord Foulkes has | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
said that about autonomy. That is something that the Scotland Bill | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
committee took forward in the report to the UK government. We | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
have not had it in response, saying that we have not had a response on | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
what we agreed cross-party. If that is what Lord Foulkes says should go | :09:42. | :09:49. | |
forward, have a look at the committee report. We are still | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
waiting for the committee's report to be considered by the Scottish | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
parliament. It has not been considered yet. Can I say, if you | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
have the vote, the referendum, and two questions on the same ballot | :10:00. | :10:06. | |
paper, the same day, supposing independence gets 50% and devo-max, | :10:06. | :10:12. | |
the other option, get 70%, which trumps the other? Which wins? | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
Nobody has come up with a solution to that conundrum. That is why I am | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
saying that these should be separate. Baisha beat 35 days apart, | :10:21. | :10:27. | |
six months the craft, whatever we think is appropriate. Whatever the | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
amendment, it is to enable that to be discussed. I hope that not just | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
in the House of Lords, not just on Newsnight Scotland, but throughout | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
the whole of Scotland, these options will be properly discussed. | :10:38. | :10:47. | |
:10:48. | :10:53. | ||
We will discuss the rest of the news in a moment. Derek Bateman has | :10:53. | :11:01. | |
been looking at the political landscape. | :11:01. | :11:11. | |
:11:11. | :11:12. | ||
It was a week for cutting down to size. Fred Goodwin lost his knight | :11:12. | :11:19. | |
would -- like wood. There were problems with people who do not cut | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
their hedges. For Fred Goodwin, it was off with his head. It neatly | :11:25. | :11:33. | |
diverted attention from others in the banking scandal. To some, the | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
bankers should be jailed and going suddenly, someone else to think the | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
bankers should be jailed came out of prison this week. This fight is | :11:43. | :11:52. | |
far from over and this story has not yet finished. Tommy Sheridan's | :11:52. | :11:58. | |
campaign for his reputation and independents. The good news for Mr | :11:58. | :12:08. | |
Salmon is a single question - yes or no? There was uncertainty | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
whether there would be a campaign for a second question. They might | :12:12. | :12:20. | |
need to put it to a referendum. Into the mix Ken the first of two | :12:20. | :12:27. | |
ets. Tax the bankers bonuses and give or Mary employees extra pay. | :12:27. | :12:37. | |
:12:37. | :12:38. | ||
They are second a right three days later when Ed Balls displayed Alex | :12:38. | :12:45. | |
Salmond's capacity for food-related photo opportunities. John Swinney | :12:45. | :12:54. | |
is tonight entertaining members of the David Hume society. The very | :12:54. | :13:04. | |
:13:04. | :13:04. | ||
thought will have people squirming in their seats. The Lords are | :13:04. | :13:11. | |
leaping over the constitution with Lord Foulkes demanding a second | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
question and a second referendum. As Hume at might have said, only | :13:16. | :13:22. | |
the unelected would think that would please the senses. There was | :13:22. | :13:28. | |
no escaping the spectre of Mr Fred. Yesterday, the First Minister said | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
he would have done things did they leave. Is he prepared to apologise | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
to be people up Scotland for a serious error of judgment? I do not | :13:37. | :13:44. | |
think Fred Goodwin is the strength of the Labour Party. It was my | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
predecessor who recommended him for an night would and it was Gordon- | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
Brown as Prime Minister who appointed him as one of his | :13:53. | :14:01. | |
economic advisers. And as the political retreat to a close, a | :14:01. | :14:07. | |
poll confirmed the SNP leader, that shocked scientists who rushed to | :14:07. | :14:17. | |
put the findings under the microscope. And Eric was - Alex | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
Salmond's popularity has fallen by 13 %. | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
I am joined now by Professor John Curtice of Strathclyde University. | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
We have had quite a few polls on independence over the last few | :14:30. | :14:35. | |
weeks. Everyone is trying to claim the trend is in their direction. | :14:35. | :14:40. | |
What is the truth? The truth is there is no discernible trend. We | :14:41. | :14:47. | |
have had to set of polls. One was in immediate wake of the UK | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
government's intervention into the referendum last month. 10 days | :14:50. | :15:00. | |
:15:00. | :15:02. | ||
after that we had a whole swathe of polls. One of them showed a small | :15:02. | :15:08. | |
increase for independence. If you do look at the average though, | :15:08. | :15:15. | |
there is no evidence, despite the SNP's expectations that Mr | :15:15. | :15:22. | |
Cameron's intervention had any impact. Nothing really has changed. | :15:22. | :15:32. | |
:15:32. | :15:33. | ||
The second set palls of people beginning to examine what the | :15:33. | :15:41. | |
response is to Mr Salmond's question. A number of people might | :15:41. | :15:51. | |
:15:51. | :15:52. | ||
be arguing that it is biased in the SNP's favour. It looks as though | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
when people are asked that question, at the level of support for | :15:56. | :16:06. | |
independence is about 4% higher. It wasn't the question on the ballot | :16:06. | :16:12. | |
paper, so perhaps Mr Salmond's? Give him an advantage. Now today we | :16:12. | :16:18. | |
have seen Lord Ashcroft published a poll in which he has asked three | :16:18. | :16:24. | |
separate questions, basically three different samples by the same | :16:24. | :16:31. | |
pollster. One of which is the SNP's proposed question which gets 41 % | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
support for independence. A second question which keeps the bones of | :16:35. | :16:42. | |
the SNP question but also says do you agree or disagree that Scotland | :16:42. | :16:51. | |
should be an independent country? It polled at 39 %. There's a third | :16:51. | :17:01. | |
:17:01. | :17:03. | ||
question which is the kind of question that some say should be | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
asked - should Scotland say the same or leave the United Kingdom? | :17:07. | :17:14. | |
That polled at 33 %. There is evidence that Mr Salmond's question | :17:14. | :17:24. | |
:17:24. | :17:25. | ||
looks like the one that people are more likely to respond to. A lot of | :17:25. | :17:35. | |
:17:35. | :17:35. | ||
people are saying, paid for by Lord Ashdown. There was a serious survey | :17:35. | :17:45. | |
:17:45. | :17:47. | ||
there. Lord Ashcroft. You yes, Surrey. -- yes. The evidence that | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
is published is there for everyone to see. So they might be a | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
difference depending on the question, but it is an important. | :17:55. | :18:01. | |
Macro you made, although we are debating it, many people aren't | :18:01. | :18:11. | |
:18:11. | :18:12. | ||
paying much attention. As a pollster, I would never ask Mr | :18:12. | :18:22. | |
:18:22. | :18:23. | ||
Salmond's question as worded on a poll. Given we are going to have a | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
referendum campaign that will go one for nearly three years, at | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
their end of that, the detailed wording of the question will not | :18:30. | :18:39. | |
make anything like the same difference in terms of the way | :18:39. | :18:48. | |
people will be polled. That said, there is evidence building up that | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
maybe this is the type of question Mr Salmond would like to have on | :18:51. | :19:01. | |
:19:01. | :19:01. | ||
the ballot paper. Their SNP, in polling about who you think should | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
run the Scottish government seems to be doing well, but that does not | :19:05. | :19:11. | |
seem to have any effect on polling on independence. We should Bobby | :19:11. | :19:20. | |
surprise. Last year, the growing momentum in support for the SNP | :19:20. | :19:27. | |
showed there was no change in terms of the question of independence. | :19:27. | :19:37. | |
:19:37. | :19:55. | ||
Thank you. A quick look at That is all we have time for. | :19:55. | :20:05. | |
:20:05. | :20:11. | ||
Another cold and frosty start tomorrow morning. Some snow showers | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
across the East. For the vast majority vote it will be a sunny, | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
but bitterly cold winter's day. Fine conditions across northern | :20:21. | :20:29. | |
England. Temperatures were just about creep above freezing. For | :20:29. | :20:39. | |
:20:39. | :20:42. | ||
most of the day it will be sunny. In the south-west it may feel a | :20:42. | :20:52. | |
:20:52. | :20:56. | ||
little less cold. Fine for Wales and most of Northern Ireland. | :20:56. | :21:02. | |
Scotland will be dry and fine and sunny, but cold. There will be some | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
wet weather coming in on Saturday. As it arrives, it could bring a | :21:07. | :21:14. | |
little bit of snow. Some uncertainty about where the snow | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
will fall and how much there will be, but as the wet weather bumps | :21:19. | :21:24. |