Browse content similar to 13/03/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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On Newsnight Scotland, a former First Minister enters the debate | :00:15. | :00:20. | |
over the independence referendum. Jack McConnell calls for the vote | :00:20. | :00:22. | |
to be held within 18 months to avoid uncertainty and disagreements | :00:22. | :00:27. | |
hampering economic recovery. And how will planned changes to the | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
UK's welfare system affect families in Scotland? A charity issues a | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
dire warning over increasing poverty levels. | :00:35. | :00:41. | |
Good evening. Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, that's former | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
Labour First Minister Jack McConnell to you, has published his | :00:43. | :00:50. | |
submission to the consultations on the referendum. In it he calls for | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
the vote to take place in the next 18 months and outlines his views on | :00:53. | :01:01. | |
the wording of the question. To Jack McConnell has been a strong | :01:01. | :01:06. | |
supporter of devolution since his days in Scottish Labour Action in | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
the 1980s so it is little surprise he has chosen to weigh in on this | :01:09. | :01:10. | |
debate. In his submission to the | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
consultations, he said that both the UK and Scottish governments | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
should be willing to compromise in order to get a fair and decisive | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
result. On timing, he says, the referendum should take place within | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
the next 18 months at a date to be agreed by both governments. He | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
believes that, the rules for the campaign and for voting should be | :01:29. | :01:34. | |
set out by the Electoral Commission. He says, he is sympathetic on the | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
case for voting at 16 but, it would be wrong to experiment with a | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
different franchise for this most important of votes. He says there | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
should be only one question on the ballot paper. The voters should be | :01:47. | :01:56. | |
asked to choose between us to take -- two statements: I agree that | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
Scotland should become an independent country or that it | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
should remain part of United Kingdom. | :02:01. | :02:10. | |
Lord McConnell joins me now from Westminster. Why is having a | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
referendum by next year anyway in the national interest? I'm trying | :02:14. | :02:20. | |
to deal with the reality of the situation. Those who were of, those | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
Scots who have been pressurising the Prime Minister to intervene | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
have been calling for an immediate referendum. The Scottish government | :02:27. | :02:33. | |
wants to have won the late 2014, it seems to me that what we need to | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
have here is compromise on both sides and coming together to agree | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
a date that is somewhere in the middle of that. I think... There is | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
no reason for saying it is in the muscle in front -- national | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
interest, you just want to split the difference. A it's in the | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
national interest to get a clear outcome as quickly as possible. A | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
recognised through decision has to reflect the views of those in power | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
and therefore, and suggesting that rather than going in one direction | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
or the other, we try to reach an agreement that will see a speedy | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
conclusion but one that is much too fast for the Scottish government. | :03:11. | :03:19. | |
You say you want a compromise, so that the referendum is put on a | :03:19. | :03:25. | |
legal basis through section 30 mechanism. What if that doesn't | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
happen and the Scottish parliament holds a referendum off its own | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
back? What do think the implications of that could be? | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
I take you back to the core element of my submission, which I think | :03:36. | :03:43. | |
justifies that position? That is, this is a vital decision for the | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
future of Scotland. This is about our constitutional future inside or | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
outside the UK. That decision first of all needs to be clear cut but | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
secondly it needs to be a decision that those who are on the losing | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
side can accept. Therefore, we need to make sure that the decision | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
itself is binding on everybody afterwards and for that reason, it | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
has to has a leave -- have a legal basis. Secondly, it has to be based | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
on a clear-cut choice with rules that are perceived to be fair by | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
all so that when the outcome is finally achieved, and the people of | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
Scotland have their decision... This has been a long time coming | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
but they will have it. They will have their decision on this matter | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
and everybody must be able to accept the result and move forward. | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
Coming back to my question, your concern would be that should this | :04:31. | :04:37. | |
go ahead without first section 30 order, the problem would be that | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
not everyone would think it is illegitimate affair that could lead | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
to more wrangles later on. A there could be legal questions about that | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
before and afterwards. I don't think that is the way to go ahead. | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
But the UK government is willing to make some compromise and devolve | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
the legal authority here, and I think the Scottish government | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
should be able to accept that a legal authority. I think that is a | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
good thing for everyone concerned. What is also important is that both | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
sides seek to work in a consensual basis in all the arrangements | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
around that and don't seek to impose in one direction or the | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
other Ferrand used for party advantage. Why are you so against | :05:14. | :05:20. | |
having another question? What I am in favour of is a clear choice. I | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
despair at the way the debate has been conducted over the last two | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
months. We've seen on the one hand a knee-jerk reaction to the | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
intervention of the Prime Minister but then also a knee-jerk reaction | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
by the other side to the First Minister's proposals. What I have | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
tried to do is rather than oppose the First Minister's suggestion for | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
the wording of the question, has proposed that we in fact use | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
something that is identical to all very similar to the wording he | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
wants, which is Scotland should become an independent country. But | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
them match that with a similar statement that says Scotland should | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
remain in the United Kingdom. That gives people a clear choice between | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
two options. It moves us away from that debate that has been taking | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
place about who gets to be the yes on the ballot paper and he gets to | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
be on the know. There is no place for that in this debate. We'd be | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
clear choice between the two options. When I said an extra | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
question I meant this proposal that there should be a question on more | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
devolution. That something that the opinion polls show most trouble | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
actually want. I got that, Gordon, you are trying to talk about | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
something that wasn't a core part of the submission and I was trying | :06:29. | :06:34. | |
to concentrate on a key proposal that nobody else is suggesting. I'm | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
glad I've had a chance to explain that because I think so bad | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
appraisal... For Alex Salmond, that the core issue. Let me answer. As | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
far as I'm concerned, the question I have suggested, the choice | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
between those statements, hasn't been suggested by anybody else. | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
It's a compromise but Betty -- better than anybody else's | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
suggestion and I hope it will be taken seriously by both sides in | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
the debate. I think that choice them makes very clear that we | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
should and muddy the waters by having a debate about something | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
else as well. All of the parties are quite able to have a debate | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
about the current levels of more powers for the Scottish Parliament | :07:09. | :07:15. | |
over the next few years and from time to time but that choice and... | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
That is not a core choice in this debate. This is a once-in-a- | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
lifetime, once and for all decision about whether or not Scott and his | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
inside or outside the UK. Am happy to have that debate and accept the | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
outcome. -- I'm happy. If surely this is an opportunity for you and | :07:32. | :07:38. | |
people like queued to make different options part of the | :07:38. | :07:44. | |
debate. -- people like you. You are a former First Minister of Scotland | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
and you are the late... That misses the point. You are the latest | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
person telling people that they cannot vote for what they want. | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
That is not the case and you are missing the point. This is not a | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
multi- option choice between a whole variety of different | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
possibilities. It could be full Stock this is about two different | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
sets of government, different forms of government. It is not about the | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
number of powers the public -- Scottish parliament has, it's about | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
whether or not Scotland should be governed as an independent country | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
or whether it should be governed as part of the United Kingdom. Thus a | :08:22. | :08:28. | |
very fundamental constitutional choice. -- that is. I think the SNP | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
should welcome that clear choice. I think those on the other side | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
should start to welcome but clear choice. I think if we get a fair | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
organisation of a referendum, a fair statement and questions on the | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
ballot paper and a mad, everybody can accept, then whatever that | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
outcome is, Scott and can try to move forward. At the moment, we got | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
a serious problem on our hands. Unemployment has gone above the | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
rest of the UK and we have growth below the rest. Until we resolve | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
this issue, we are not going to see the level of investment in Scotland | :09:01. | :09:11. | |
:09:11. | :09:19. | ||
we need in order to take 5th So you would compromise a proposal? | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
You're not compromising at fault. Alex Salmond has not said that is | :09:24. | :09:32. | |
his preference. I have not ruled out... You are ruling out. I have | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
asked the other side in this debate to except Alex Salmond's wording in | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
this debate, but I am asking Alex Salmond to consider that there | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
needs to be a different choice of word in for the other questions. I | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
think that is a reasonable proposal. This will give people in Scotland a | :09:49. | :09:56. | |
clear choice between those two systems. Thank you very much. | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
The UK Government's reform of welfare and loss -- is being | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
discussed. The Government says it will be fair and encourage people | :10:04. | :10:13. | |
back to work. Charity says it will make people poorer. Julie Peacock | :10:13. | :10:19. | |
reports. Life is busy for Tracey. She is a | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
single mum who juggles looking after her young son with a part- | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
time job. Children's tax credits and benefits help balance the books, | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
but the proposed well-filled reforms are were in her. I am | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
petrified. We do not know exactly what is going to happen. Although | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
they agree with it the uniformity of that process inside of the new | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
benefits, I do not agreed that even though they say we are going to be | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
better off, my personal belief is that eventually they will start to | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
-- start chipping away and to we're given that the minimum or nothing | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
at all. Do you think it occurred just you to go back to the work | :11:02. | :11:09. | |
this? No. -- encourages you to go back to the workplace. Know. I | :11:09. | :11:16. | |
would need their -- I would have to give up my job altogether and live | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
in that the benefits system again, of which I am loath to do but given | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
the choice between studying for an extra two were �3 a week or being | :11:24. | :11:31. | |
an at home mum it is not a hard decision. How discerned maybe | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
justified. Save the Children's says some families will be worse off | :11:35. | :11:41. | |
under the new scheme. A single parent with a child under five | :11:41. | :11:47. | |
could be �65 a week worse off after welfare reform. The chat -- the | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
Department of work and pensions says the charity has been | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
disingenuous. It says that many single parents will be better off | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
under the new scheme. At today's welfare committee in Holyrood, QC | :12:01. | :12:07. | |
and to realise that version of events. The big picture here is an | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
increase in poverty which wind the clock back to the date when thus | :12:12. | :12:19. | |
far it -- this Parliament began. If nothing else changed, that is the | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
track that we are all on as a result of welfare reform. A our | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
main concern is that the extraordinary impact on levels of | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
child poverty that are being forecast as a result of these | :12:31. | :12:37. | |
welfare reforms. If you look at the trends, we're looking at up to | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
100,000 children more at living in poverty at the end of the decade. | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
Sometimes we get blinded by these numbers, at the reality is that is | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
tens of thousands of children who will be growing up in families | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
without the resources to give them the best start in life. There were | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
concerns that some of the reforms could it Scotland harder. The | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
reforms are being sold as a way of getting more people back to work. | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
Some charities argue that it could in fact to do the opposite, and | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
that Scottish families will be hardest hit. That is because south | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
of the border around 40% of tools qualify for free child care. That | :13:16. | :13:24. | |
is not the case here in Scotland. 40% of two-year-olds. Alex Salmond | :13:24. | :13:30. | |
has pledged to match England's childcare provision. But with | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
welfare reforms due to come into force, it may not be quick enough | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
for some families. Charities say more children could be pushed into | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
poverty and it is a constant fear for parents who are already being | :13:42. | :13:47. | |
squeezed. If we were to go back to having a lower income, I would be | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
back to missing meals almost every day and my child will be going back | :13:52. | :13:58. | |
to missing bills and not having clothes that fit him. -- missing | :13:58. | :14:06. | |
meals. I cannot say no to buying a new clothes so why will fall back | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
into debt. Welfare is a reserved matters so there is a limit to what | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
Holyrood can do. But charities say the Scottish Government needs to | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
act fast to soften the blow. A earlier, I spoke to Douglas | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
Hamilton, -- head of Save the children in Scotland and asked him | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
if this report did indeed cherry- pick figures as the Government can | :14:29. | :14:34. | |
-- Government claims. The situation is going to be bad for many parents, | :14:34. | :14:39. | |
particularly single working mothers. Universal credit as a concept has | :14:39. | :14:45. | |
many redeeming features. It will simplified if system and help work | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
pay for many families, but it has a significant blind-spot when it | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
comes to certain family types, single mothers who work 16 hours a | :14:55. | :15:02. | |
week and couple families will lose out. The Government says that for | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
example to get you a figure of three and a have 1000 a year to | :15:06. | :15:13. | |
work, you have to be a lone parent with three children under school | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
age and use a child care for 40 hours a week and the currently | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
claiming both tax credit and housing benefit. It may be that | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
those people are very common, but the Government clearly is | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
suggesting that they are not. Government is not suggesting that | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
those figures are wrong. Yes there are some families that have three | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
finger at -- have three children who will be �68 a week worse off. A | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
single mother working full-time will shoot -- with two children | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
will be worse off. But you seem to be suggesting that 100,000 people | :15:50. | :15:57. | |
in Scotland alone would be in that situation. Is that the case? We are | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
suggesting that 96,000 councils in Scotland are at risk of losing | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
benefits and entitlements that they currently have, being worse off | :16:04. | :16:09. | |
under the new system than they currently are. It is a very complex | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
situations. People are genuinely worried and do not know how they | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
are to be affected. But the impression that you are giving with | :16:16. | :16:22. | |
the publicity for this report was that there are almost 100,000 | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
people in Scotland to could end up being several thousands of pounds | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
worth a year worse off. And now you're saying that is not really | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
the case. There may be some examples in extreme cases and up to | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
100,000 people may be worse off, but perhaps just by a marginal | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
amount. Some will be worse off depending on their fat -- depending | :16:42. | :16:49. | |
on their family types. Households where to parents are working part- | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
time could be nearly �2,000 -- �2,000 a year worse off. We have | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
tried to present a range of family types and a range of impact. That | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
goes against the Government was a call principle for the Universal | :17:04. | :17:11. | |
credit system is. It is not going to be the case that every family | :17:11. | :17:19. | |
will be better off. We are proposing changes to that system so | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
that it does help everybody. You're research suggests that more people | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
will be better off than worse off under the new system. Is your | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
argument that is not the point? That everyone should be at the same | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
level? I think our point is that particularly the poorest households | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
should be better off under the new system and that is clearly not | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
going to be the case. The Government's figures show that | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
there are winners and losers in this. They say that 600,000 single | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
parents will be better off, but there same report says that 500,000 | :17:52. | :17:58. | |
single parents will be worse off. 400,000 councils across the UK will | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
be worse off by more than �50 a week. So the Government can say | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
that there are going to be some families that will be better off | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
and we acknowledge that and welcome those improvements, but we are | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
saying we have to have a fair system. We have to make sure that | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
it really helps the poorest households to get the income they | :18:15. | :18:22. | |
needed to provide for their children. Thank you very much. | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
A quick look at tomorrow's front pages. | :18:25. | :18:31. | |
The Herald League's on Rangers. Craig Whyte duped us all for sale | :18:31. | :18:37. | |
of Rangers. The Scotsman says hopes were high street revive fault are | :18:37. | :18:42. |