17/04/2012 Newsnight Scotland


17/04/2012

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or, we will see more things coming Tonight, his prison the right place

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for female offenders? We will hear from the former Lord Advocate who

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wants Cornton Vale to be shut down. We have been to Moray to find out

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if the closure of RAF Kinloss and the problems in the local fishing

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industry will affect the local elections.

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Female prisoners are more likely to be mentally ill, or addicted to

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drugs and alcohol than their male counterparts. The majority are

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serving short sentences for low- level crimes. A study by the former

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lord advocate, golf, wants Cornton Vale to be demolished and offenders

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dealt with outside prison. Remember this blast from the past?

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Prison works. It ensures that we are protected from murderers,

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muggers, and rapists. Prison working, and being tough on crime

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were always popular with the Tory conferences. The message has a

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wider resonance with the public. The trouble is that judging from

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reoffending rates, prison doesn't work, but doing something about it

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can be a political minefield. In recent times Ken Clarke and Kenny

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MacAskill of the SNP have both tried to argue for more non-

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custodial sentences. Arguing that sentencing does not work. That

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leads to the accusation of being soft on crime. Here that Cornton

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Vale, in Stirling, there are some pretty drastic facts about the

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female population. It has more than doubled in the last decade, 70 --

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scented by percent of sentences are for less than six months. Unless

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these issues are addressed, Keegan in prison indefinitely, or release

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them. -- keep them in prison. We know what works, there is evidence,

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we are not able to do it because of the structures, the working

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practices, they are designed in such a way that they are not

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targeting the chaotic nature of these women's lives. There are

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alternative kinds of intervention, it is backed up by this former

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offender, who has been helping at a centre in Glasgow. You need

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something to get up for in the morning. Instead of drugs, you need

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something to do. I have been working for 218. A special

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commission of one former offenders chaired by a Dame Elish Angiolini

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has been looking at this issue. Their solutions are pretty radical.

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The Commission on Women Offenders recommends that Cornton Vale should

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be demolished and made way for specialist units. They think he

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should be replaced have a smaller prison for long-term offenders.

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This is by no means the first report with strong recommendations

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into the future of Cornton Vale, the next stage is maybe the most

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difficult, getting it through the political process. The report are

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now LANs on the desk of the Scottish it justice secretary,

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Kenny MacAskill. Opponents are already having their say, some four,

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some against. Some of these women have committed very serious crimes,

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judges have decided that custodial sentences are the most appropriate

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form of punishment, it is important that justice is seen to be done.

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Any idea that they should be set free, because it is a less serious,

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that is not acceptable to me, or wider society as a whole.

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question is, are we happy that many women, with serious illnesses, and

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substance of these problems are in prison at the moment, we should be

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happy about full? -- at the moment? We should not be happy about that.

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There will always be some women, because of the seriousness of their

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crimes, have to be imprisoned. But some women should not be there, at

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there are other ways. Whether Cornton Vale's days are numbered

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not only depends on these reports, but the art of the political system.

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Earlier I spoke to the former Lord Advocate, who chaired the

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commission, I put it to her that what was missing were proposals to

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change the law in order to make her ideas happen. There are a number of

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propositions in changing the law. The composite sentence, which would

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be a hybrid, which is a first, the ability of a judge to keep tabs on

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and have -- on an individual, they cannot find that what they are

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doing, making sure they're not just smoking cigarettes and watching

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television. They would have to wonder take -- undertake a

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programme of reform. The unless attitudes change, nothing much will

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change. You either have to change attitudes, or change laws. You seem

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to refer to that any report, there has been a different of former

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sentencing in specialise the drug courts. -- a different form. There

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are different attitudes. What international research shows, and a

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wad problem-solving quarter showed, is that where judges interact, and

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take a very direct interest in the sentencing, and maintain a managing

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of the sentence, the effect can be very sick of a dent in terms of

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rehabilitation. -- seed significance. They gave a mandate

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for sherbets and judges to take the view that following a sentence

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should be taken? I don't think you need to change the law, you need an

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understanding of what works. There is a lack of confidence inside the

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Community and the systems which are present. It is a chicken and egg

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situation. You have to measure their systems, and demonstrate they

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can make an impact. The committee needs to have a conference in the

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systems. You need a strong community justice service.

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problem is, as you yourself say, yours is one of many reports. We

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have been talking about this for years? Yes. The number of prisoners

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in jail has doubled. That is why the time has now come when

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something must happen. It is not the case, as one commentator

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suggested, are not rushing into it. -- of not rushing into it. It is

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not that people are not working hard, they are working in different

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directions. In many women's prisons, they have services coming from over

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100 organisations to one prison. Managing that, their role providing

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different services, prisoners in different areas, different

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programmes, not measured, not researched, it might look good, but

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what we need to do, he is say, it is good, it works. The trouble with

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this is, I am not disputing some of the things you saying report, but

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is -- but I cannot count the number reports that I have read. It is a

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common a theme, nothing seems to change. I can't speak for other

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areas of government, one of the common features you find is that

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there are differences because of a lack of collaboration. We saw a

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vacuum in terms of leadership. We need leadership and drive to get

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this programme moving, which evidence suggests it does work, to

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convince judges, to convince the public that this is a far better

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position to being and having prisoners in a default position. --

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to be in a ban have. There are a number of women with a significant

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drug problems. -- with a significant a drug problem. Your

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proposal to close Cornton Vale, and replace it with something else, my

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remark would-be is unless you have convince the judges, and convince

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the public, as you have not, if you close Cornton Vale, all he will get

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is overcrowding in local prisons? We are not suggesting knocking it

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down and not replacing it. We are talking about a small unit. Units

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that are based in the community. They will allow women who have been

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very short time to be given an effective programme through multi-

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discipline working. Not just a third sector, but working in

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collaboration, so that they go there and they are supervised in a

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very intensive way, which is not happening to them at the moment.

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There are very few projects which show an element of success. Do we

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will -- do we require legislation to change it judges' opinions?

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is not up to them. It is. They bore, quite rightly say, thank you very

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much, I'm very interested, I will do what I think is a correct

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interpretation of the law, no matter what you say. If you change

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to law, they will interpret it as they want. The law is the catalyst

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for change, that will be done by a these composite sentences. That

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will give a message to the judiciary. The sentencing is

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something which they have to be accountable for. Why do you think

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there has been a doubling in the number of women in prison? Crime

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has gone down. It has. That is why it is so difficult. More women are

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going to prison, there have been suggestions that judges were

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sending warning to prison are disproportionately, there is no

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evidence to support that. More women are surviving he never had

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very significant drug addictions, and you see them later on, they

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have anti-social behaviour, they are surviving and coming into

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prison as a revolving door. Prison does not do with their problems, it

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doesn't stop them offending, he -- a cost a lot of money. We need to

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be able to do with bad behaviour, we need a better alternative.

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I'm joined how from Edinburgh by Kirsty Pate who is the manager of

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the Willow project, which deals with women offenders. On I am

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curious to get any idea of the kind of women that are presumably former

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offenders, there to deal with? service that I work for, this

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service in Edinburgh, it is led by the NHS and we work in partnership

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with the criminal-justice Social Work programme in Edinburgh Council,

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and we work with people involved in the criminal-justice system and

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maybe still actively offending when we start to work with them. Does

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the picture that we have just had presented in that report tie with

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your experience that to the types of problems these women in your

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experience have? In general, these women involved in the criminal-

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justice system tends to have a high prevalence of abuse, child is

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sexual abuse and have experienced abuse and have had a mental health

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problems and substance misuse problems, so the picture to date

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from the report is very much what we see in this service on a day-to-

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day basis. One of the statistics on today's report was that 71 % of

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these women said they had committed the crime they were there for

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committing while high on drugs and that seems to tie in with your

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experience. Do you see any point of sending any of these people to jail,

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as opposed to treating them for drug problems? Certainly, some of

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these services in the community that work with women in the

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community in a dressing addiction problems, addressing issues around

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poverty. Are you able to treat people for drug addiction?

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service has to support people that do not offer a prescribing service,

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but we have them to access the disease that they struggled to

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access. -- we help them. We get them to continue to attend

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appointments for substance misuse. As our service provides a range of

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different of activity is... some oblique, you were trying to

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get a different results by what? Women that getting bored with you

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do not reoffend and gets it back in prison? That his idealistic and we

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do have women that move on from our service and need more positive

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lifestyles and are not involved in offending any more. But we have to

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remember that some of these women that we work with have got very

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complex backgrounds, as has just been referred to, and had been in

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and out of custody for decades, and it takes a long time and a

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sophisticated response in order to seize offending, it is not short

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term. Thank you. Ian Hamilton continues his series

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looking at the forthcoming local election around the country. He has

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been to Moray where a coalition of Conservatives independent

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councillors hold power. The closure of RAF Kinloss and the future of

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RAF Lossiemouth have had a future on the economy, but will it affect

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the election? -- had an effect on For these the budding black belts,

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when the eventually leave school, they have some big decisions to

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make. Do they stay and try and make a live here or do they need and

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seek out there fortune as were? They have to go away and leave the

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area to study, so sometimes, they come back to the club, sometimes

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they do not. There are not many apprenticeships, there is not a lot

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of employment in this area have. A lot of children come out of school

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and struggle for jobs. It is kind of running down a bit more now, but

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it has got lots of countryside editor is a great place to bring up

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children, definitely. -- and it is a great place. It is easy to

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understand how people love living in Moray so much. Algar might only

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be one hour from Inverness or 90 minutes from Aberdeen, but living

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in this area has its drawbacks. What would you change about the

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area if you could? Probably the road system is not very good. We

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could do with the dual carriageway. As well as poor transport links,

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the main gripe when I caught up with these musicians here was the

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decimation of their traditional industries like fisheries. They

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have also lost one of their two military air bases at RAF Kinloss

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leaving only RAF Lossiemouth which has left a bad effect on the

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economy. A lot of businesses depended done the RAF for

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employment and customers and the local schools and hospitals had all

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of the RAF wives in them teaching or helping and nursing, so it has

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been a big blow to this area. lost the fishing industry and that

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used to be a huge industry when I first went to RAF Lossiemouth. They

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used to be 100 boats in the harbour. That was a huge challenge. This is

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a family fish business. The smell of fish in the shop wasn't

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unpleasant, but as I waded through fish guts in the preparation area,

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the stench was overwhelming. They process two tons of fish every day.

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My love for their started this business many years ago and they

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had been years since I was 16. -- my father started this business.

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Many of the Bowes is that supply him have gone. -- many of the boats.

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We can manage ourselves, but sometimes we go further and further

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away to get fish, so it is all about the changes. There are less

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boats catching the fish. A lot of the jobs in Moray are low paid and

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the wages that 5% lower than the Scottish average. There are younger

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people wanting to do the factory job so it is difficult to get local

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staff to do the job. A lot of the factories locally have foreign

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people working for them. 75 % of companies in Moray are small,

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family enterprises and in many ways, people's affection and commitment

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