17/07/2012 Newsnight Scotland

on the stable door has been drawn Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, the

Government failed to meet its climate change targets for 2010.

They say it was down to the unusually hard winter but what does

it say about their strategy to cut emissions?

And the decision is there is no decision yet. Why is the Scottish

Government hesitating over gay marriage? Good evening. Maybe we

should all have put on an extra jumper, according to the Scottish

Government, the cold winter was the reason why they failed to meet

targets for greenhouse gas emissions. Their long-term targets

to reduce emissions by 40% but then rose by nearly 2% recently. Is this

a simple as turning down the central heating?

Industry, coal and gas power stations and transport are all

sources of carbon dioxide and other gases that cause global warming.

The Scottish Government has set ambitious targets to reduce the

country's emissions year on year with the aim of cutting greenhouse

gases by 40% by 2020. But his -- and they are already on their way

with emissions 24% down since 1990. Much of this was achieved not by a

deliberate green agenda but by de industrialisation. It seems all the

more surprising that snow brought more than transport chaos in its

wake. The Minister for Climate Change to

a Stevenson is in our Edinburgh studio. -- Stewart Stevenson. The

message seems to be that we cannot reduce the climate greenhouse gas

emissions if there is a cold winter. It was exceptionally cold. Six

months of winter and 3.5 months at the start of the year and 2.5

months out the end of the year. They call this winter for 100 years.

Nor climate change targets would not be worth the paper they are

written on then? We have been making a lot of the key changes

that will deliver in the longer term. The latency period, how long

it takes for the benefits to kick in - for example waiting the number

of houses that meet energy efficiency targets and standards by

7% over the year 2009/10, that is a big increase in tree-planting by

50%. These are all actions that are sensible. Something even bigger

there, though, isn't there? A sharp fall in the year before we are

talking about because it was a recession. You would expect more

greenhouse gas emissions because of the recession, therefore if the

economy ever picks up you would expect that alone to lead to a rise

in greenhouse gas emissions. It is a fair point but what we have seen

in 2010 is we have moved further ahead of our colleagues elsewhere

in the UK while simultaneously having higher levels of employment.

Where the actions of the Scottish Government have ensured that we

have been less hard hit by the recession, than has been the case

south of the border, yet we have increased the gap with the rest of

the UK. That in part is down to the actions we have been taking. Many

of which to that the benefit of the climate change agenda over the

longer run whereas weather is something that is immediate, it

happens now and you can predict against averages, you can build in

allowances for worse than average weather. 2010 was a most

exceptional year though. Can you just explain what is going on here?

Since the turn of the century, brewhouse gases from power supply

soon to have fallen by about 20% -- greenhouse gases. That is because

of renewable energy? We have in 201135 % of consumption from

renewable sources. But residential uses have barely changed.

residential settings we are a largely using fossil fuels and in

particular 2010, we saw a dramatic increase in the burning of gas. We

already know that in 2011 for the United Kingdom, the amount of gas

being burnt presidential Lee has dropped by a quarter and that

illustrates the rapid response that there was in 2010 to be very

serious weather conditions and the reliance that we continue to have

all domestic heating and office heating upon gas. Fine, but

business emissions have gone down very sharply since 1990 which is

when you choose to start your base period from. That is according to

your own documents largely because the nitric acid manufacturing plant

in Leeds -- Leith moved to Ireland. It has got nothing to do with

government policy, we have had nothing happening in households. We

have had admittedly a fall in power supply but that is from renewables.

Wed you get the other half? -- Where do you get? We have

international standards so we all compare with each other and in

household we saw in 2009/10, it grew from 55% of households that

might energy-efficiency standards up to 62%. That is a substantial

increase and it shows... It is not showing up in the figures. That is

my point, you make these changes over the course of a year. They are

significant changes and the period in which they start to feed through

to your figures as longer. given you are showing a big one off

factor, what is the value? To get near the Tigers you must close some

call or gas power stations? -- to get near the target. We have seen

the figures go down every year apart from 2006, so we are on a

trajectory which takes us to 40% reductions that we have said as our

target for 2020. And the actions we are taking in forestry and housing,

investments in the railway system to get more people to commute by

rail, electrification of the rail network... The number of activities

are very substantial and will deliver in the long term. Patrick

Harvie is with us from the Scottish Greens. What do you make of this?

would love to have been sat around the Cabinet table when jaws were

dropping as ministers were given revelations that sometimes in

Scotland we have cold winters. We have known for a very long time

that emissions will go up in cold winters. Let's think back, in 2010

the winter was cold right into March and then it started again

really early. The December and November was very cold, it is not

completely unreasonable. Clearly it has been cold, but they will happen.

If we will be ready for that kind of thing and able to achieve carbon

reductions in the face of cold winters as well as milder ones, we

need a massive investment in the housing stock so people do not have

to pay through the nose to the energy companies. Do you not buy

the argument that the figures are on track from Stewart Stevenson?

Even though it went up to 2010, a big terrible recession in the year

before, it still went up but lower than two years before. The a fall

in the previous year due to economic circumstances. A rise this

year due to inaction, I would say. You may remember a few years ago we

had to that against a very controversial budget when the

Government after months of pressure - not just from last to put other

organisations - refused to commit to the National programme of

housing stock improvement. Only in the last month have we seen the

Government agreeing to improvement on those lines. We would have been

a lot further forward if we saw that earlier. Do you think... When

it comes to formulations, a big one off factor with the closure of some

other industry factors. When renewable power generation was

turning on, that was great because we had hydro before we put up wind

turbines. If we strip out these factors, such can't Scotland

claimed to be the paragon of this case? Won his ambition and that has

been shown not just by the SNP Government but by the All

Parliament and the doctor in radical agenda. I am curious about

where we are now if we strip the special factors out, does that make

a substantial difference or do you agree with Stewart Stevenson when

he says that in and taking that into account, we are doing pretty

well. A cross the Broad sweep of history, we have had industrial

swings and social consequences and problems, it has not been the

result of government policy on climate change. The opportunity

that climate change gave us was to accelerate the reduction through

progressive measures that will benefit a sustainable economy as

well as a fair society. That is not what we have seen. You want a

further programme of action but this goal of over 40% reductions by

2020, do you think that can be achieved without taking the kind of

further action that you want? cannot be found without taking

radical action but it can be achieved with the UK Climate Change

Committee and the Advisory Committee for both governments,

things that can be achieved. But at present you do not think it will

get there? To steady as she goes is not the way to achieve this

transformation. You talk about renewables, we love to see

increases in those but that is to provide energy, it doesn't in

itself cut emissions. Burning less fossil fuels cut emissions and

Winnie the renewable energy to replace that. Stewart Stevenson

accepted we see an increase in gas burning and his government is

committed to supporting another 50 years of oil and gas extraction.

They want to squeeze out every last drop of fossil fuels and we need to

shift away from them, not just at Many campaigners were anticipating

a decision on gay marriage from the Government. The decision turned out

to be not to make one. A Cabinet committee is to study the details

but is that the real reason for the delay?

For gay men and lesbians in the road to a quality has been a long

one. A series of changes in the law and the evolution of public opinion

for means a quality has never been closer. Against this, for supposed

to his -- supporters of same 6th marriage, waiting for a Cabinet

decision may seem inconsequential. But some were genuinely

disappointed there was no decision today. This couple live in Scotland

but got married in South Africa. The message that everybody was

getting, the great interest that has been displayed through today

and yesterday, was we would have an announcement. We have been getting

these hints, we have an announcement in the early spring,

and yet again it has not happened. Personally, my message to the SNP

is they should hate to lose votes. Similarly for those for and against

gay marriage. That allegation of indecision is denied by the

Government would to give a clear indication of its thinking when it

opened a consultation last year. Then it said it thinks same-sex

marriage should be introduced. The bulk of F MPs support the bulk of

gay marriage but some have reservations. -- SNPs. They want

safeguards to make sure no faith group is forced to carry out same-

sex marriages. It is one of the assurances that has been given that

churches will be not forced to give same-sex marriages for --. If they

are looking at that in more detail, that is good news. 77,000 responded

to the Government has no consultation and critics questioned

polls which appear to show a majority of the public support in

same-sex marriage. Yesterday, the Catholic Church called for a

referendum. Today the Government made it 100% clear that would not

be happening. Now there could be called a decisive government.

Political opponents do not see today's actions that way.

Government is about taking hard decisions. It has been clear in

this debate there are strong views on both sides. There is public

interest in the decision. It comes down to ministers and the Cabinet

to get round the table and discuss the issues. They then need to

fulfil the principles. At the Cabinet, or that test, seems to

have failed. The problem for the Government is that some were

expecting a decision today. The risk is the delay may be perceived

by critics have a sign of weakness or indecision. Same-sex marriage is

an issue with little room for compromise. When that decision

finally comes, campaigners are bound to be angry or upset. We did

ask to speak to Nicola Sturgeon, the minister chairing the committee,

that she was not available. We are joined by the deputy editor of the

Scotsman, Peter MacMahon and Magnus Linklater of The Times. Magnus,

what do you think is going on? like the BBC report earlier that

said the SNP government was suffering from pre-wedding nerves.

It is not surprising they are hesitating because they are between

a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, if they go ahead, they will

run into the mighty opposition of the Catholic Church. If they do not,

they run into the opposition to... A growing body of public opinion.

Do you think they have specific issues? The Lord Advocate is going

to get involved. Do you think there are legal issues they are trying to

sort out? I think there are. They are is the threat if you allow a

sum up churches or groups and opt out clause, if it were, but you are

not forcing them to approve gay marriages in churches, that might

be open to challenge under the European Convention of Human Rights.

To be honest, I think that is quite a remote possibility. Hideout if

this Cabinet committee is going to come up in the end width opposition.

I doubt if this Cabinet. I think they will go ahead. Peter, what do

you think? I think there is some politics involved. Magners is right.

The Catholic Church is very powerful. The SNP are not the first

group, the first politicians, in Scotland to have run across the

Catholic Church and incurred the wrath. It happened to Labour over

abortion. There is a reluctance to be seen in conflict with a major

church which has a lot of people following it. If they are going to

come out in favour, it does not make a difference? No. That is why

a of the charges of this Government not being decisive is important.

Nicola Sturgeon is at the heart of this. She is normally decisive.

Health issues, you have seen her out and about getting involved. If

you look at the consultation document, the issues they are

supposedly looking at now in this committee were raised right at the

beginning of last September in the consultation document, whether or

not churches and ministers and priests would be forced to marry

people of the same sex if they did not want to. They have known about

this issue for a long time. If this is what is being looked at,

including by the Lord Advocate, it is surprising if they are doing it

now. Magners, -- Magners, what David Cameron is proposing for

England, you have gay marriage but only in register offices, not in

church is, does that get round it? People might have strong views on

that but do they get round the legal problems? It might go round

the legal problems but I doubt it will get round the moral problem.

This is what the issue is. There is a strong body of opinion. It is a

logical progression from civil partnerships to having full

marriage in church. What you have just described is a kind of halfway

house. I doubt that is going to satisfy anyone, certainly not those

who are campaigning for gay marriage in church. The other

problem, Peter, is presumably the legal framework governing it this

stuff is not devolved? So um of it is not. That equality legislation

is not. -- some of it is not. Some argue there could be legal

challenge there. Again, you have got the Lord Advocate and other

senior legal officers who advised the Scottish government, people are

campaigning on this, and they say this is not going to be a big

problem. It is more, surely, from the SNP point of view, they talk

about building a new Scotland, a more tolerant and Liberal Scotland,

it seems to me to get into the legal litigation is to lose the

argument for a bit. The argument is about what Scotland do they want to

build? That is why it is strange the SNP have taken this attitude.

It is this strange attitude I am getting at. I am raising the point

of evolution -- devolution. They would have to say there was

changing to legislation and they could say they will introduce it

once at the British Government makes a legal changes. Would that

not sound week for a SNP government which is committed to a Scotland

which makes up its own decisions? The risk of this delaying tactic is

it plays into the hands of those who are already accusing Alex

Salmond of running scared of a number of issues like NATO, euro,

or the various problems associated with independence, here is another

one within his competence to introduce and he seems to be

backing away. That is what the problem is. We have to leave it

there. Thank you. A quick look at the papers. Starting with the

Scotsman. They are talking about the SNP and same-sex marriage and