13/08/2012 Newsnight Scotland

a process. But it is a 20 year job. As former Prime Minister Gordon

Brown at ways into the devolution or independent argument, there

seems to be a variety of opinions within Scottish Labour. Does that

enhance or diminish the contribution of Scottish Labour to

the question? Today Gordon Brown returned to the

bread and butter of Scottish politics. He is for more devolution

but against independence and fiscal autonomy.

First we examine some more controversial additions to their

national wisdom on the subject. -- the national wisdom.

In the past couple of days division in the Scottish Labour Party over

the independence debate has hit the headlines. The former First

Minister put the case for a second question on that the referendum.

What do we do then, he said? We have lost control of her own

destiny and have ceded it to Westminster.

Neil Finley reportedly ridiculed Back in June at the launch of a

better together the party line from the Scottish Labour leadership

seemed clear. They want a straight yes or no question.

We need to settle the big question. Do you want to stay in the UK or

not? Make that decision then we will have that the consequence of

that. What of Labour voters think? Are they what the leadership? It

seems to depend on what questions they are asked.

At if they are faced with a question when they are asked should

there be a straight choice or a third option, in truth a majority

of Labour voters look as though the art in favour of a clear cut single

question. However if we do not use that, if we just ask what should be

on the ballot paper, then we discover that a majority of Labour

voters are in favour of the big two questions. The Labour party is

having some success in the use that particular rhetoric of a clear cut

question. But it cannot be suggested that that support is

firmly based. Strip away the rhetoric and it looks as though

Labour voters are as keen on two questions as everybody else.

There may be political advantage for Labour and its allies, but if

Labour and their Unionist allies use their clout at Westminster to

have a question about more devolution excluded, they might

have explaining to do to some of the people who would normally

support them up at the ballot box. Former Prime Minister Gordon Brown

spoke to date at the Edinburgh Book Festival. He is against

independence, but his argument concluded that Scotland with

increased fiscal autonomy would have to increase taxes. He added

the problems we face are as a result of problems within the UK

rather than inequalities between Scotland and England.

The inequalities within Scott and are far greater than they should be.

The inequalities that an end and are far greater than they should be.

I cannot defend the inequalities that exist within England and

Scotland. I have always believed we should do more about that. The

issue is whether Scott and breaks with England. The issue then is

whether the union has served Scotland or England feel it all

well. I am say to you that we have established in Scotland and in

England the right to a number of social provisions, the rate to

economic support and help, sort of Scotland was doing well and in them

was doing badly, we would be helping English regions in

difficulty. The sharing of resources is to the benefit of all

of us. If you look to the future, if you go anywhere in the world,

states existing side by side with other states will have to find a

way of living together, of narrowing their differences between

them. I would suggest that we have got a model of how that may be done

for the future. It is not perfect. We have got the problem of a

government that some people do not want. I say to you that this model

will be the model that people will look at windy a looking at economic

union in Africa, in Asia. We have managed to narrow these differences

in such a dramatic we compared with rest of the world. Let us not

forget that that has happened. Let us not forget that we have been

able to share resources the way that no other union has managed to

do. Not the union, not the United States of America, not any other

country on been in that I can think of. It is based on a progressive

idea that everybody should have the same economic, social, and

political right. You cannot have a Social Union, if you break up the

very essence of their existing union, which is the sharing of

resources. If you agree that you are going to have an English

currency and be part of NATO, somehow you are softening the blow

and there is nothing at issue when you come to independence. If you

break at the fiscal union, the sharing of resources across the

United Kingdom, then it is clear that he will have to reduce public

expenditure massively, or you'll have to tax Scottish people more.

There is no escape from a target that if you have fiscal autonomy,

in other words all the money that you raised in Scotland is that all

the money that you have to spend on services in Scotland, given that

there is a sharing of resources, there is no escape from the fact

that you what the same level of services in Scotland, you will have

to raise taxes in Scotland. People who are putting that proposition of

fiscal autonomy, the consequences are that you stop sharing the

resources of the United Kingdom and therefore you cannot in times of

trouble to agree someone who is richer or who has resources that

you do not, and ask for help. You cannot maintain their economic,

political, and social rights that exists for every UK citizen. I

worry about fiscal autonomy which is now being proposed as the next

stage of evolution. Fiscal autonomy means more taxes in Scotland, but

not in a progressive way. It is simply to fill a gap that is left

because we have not been sharing resources in the United Kingdom. If

people look at this dangers in what is called Maxie devolution, we lose

something that is unique. Until people look at that they might feel

at any additional form of devolution is good devolution. I

think we have to be careful about that. I favour more devolution, but

I do not favour fiscal autonomy. I am joined now by Henry McLeish.

And I am also joined by commentator who will be at their Edinburgh Book

Festival in a fortnight. Henry McLeish, you were at the

lecture today by Gordon Brown. He said that a new argument was needed

by those in favour of devolution. He said that argument should be

based on sharing resources across the United Kingdom. In their end he

delivered a traditional argument. We are too poor. I was quite

impressed by the lecture. If you talk about full fiscal autonomy

that means something different than the more fiscal responsibility. If

you take the sharp edge of that, we get a cheque from Westminster for

30 billion, but do we spend it all? Between the various terms, to be

fair to Gordon Brown, but was only one part of what I thought was a

good speech. It set out ideas for the union. He did say we have got

to look to the future, not to the past. He wanted to talk about

principles. Far too often in this debate may have become too abstract.

At their end of the day is a vision for the union is a healthy one.

Gordon Brown is set at out in an He also has said he was against

physical autonomy, and he also seemed to conflict that with devo

max, so he seems to think that the options that are being taught a

boat are dangerous. Clearly that is a different view from Euros.

certainly is. I am going to be a bit abstract myself, between this

definition of full fiscal autonomy. In a way, my definition of that is

independent. Within the union, there are other ways of increasing

the responsibility of the Parliament, but staying within the

Union. But you're talking about fiscal powers, greater tax powers

for Holyrood. I described it as a radical plan, more of a fiscal

powers coming to Scotland for policy development. Within the

Unionist debate that is important. I believe that debate will probably

be more important between the Unionists and nationalists. Gerry

Hassan, has Gordon Brown sought to kill that debate today? Nor, what I

think he has done is, it is interesting to hear them talking

unleashed and freed a bit. Until the Blair-brown ears he was a man

of enormous charm and charisma. You saw him, talking about equality and

inequality, one of the core principles of labour, and

acknowledging that we all have some explaining to do and challenges to

face about the fact that Scotland as a society is scarred by

inequality. So is England. We're one of the most unequal places in

the rich world. Independence or cultural change is what is needed

to change in Scotland. I think that is the debate we want to look at,

rather than banging away about what is their greatest defeat -- degree

of solvency you will have in any package. At least he is trying

there, I think. He was asked afterwards, Henry

McLeish, what his answer was to the conundrum that has been posed by

nationalists who say that if you don't approve of what the

Conservative-led coalition is doing at Westminster, independence is the

answer. He did not really take on that point. In terms of response to

a question, it is a very difficult one. I take more time in the book,

and Gerry Hassan will do the same committed look at that. -- to look

at that. One of the and issues it raised was the question, we can

look at values and principles and social justice and progressiveness

in politics, but there is not much of it at Westminster. The question

was really saying come up we take your argument, according, so far,

but if we are left with the possibility for a perpetual

conservative alliance or a coalition or Conservative

Government, that changes the dynamic. On our born or part of a

union, we could be progressive, but looking to the coalition a lot of

people are frightened about that implication. How dangerous is it,

Gerry Hassan, for the Labour Party to be in a campaign with the

Conservatives and Liberal Democrats, the coalition parties, to fate of

independence? -- to fight off an independent. You have to have some

court -- co-ordination of the pro- union forces, but Labour needed to

develop their own Unionism. Labour has always been a Unionist Party.

But where Labour used to have strength is it was a party of

pragmatic Unionism. They never used to see the Union Jack is ours and

all that. They said the union will bring a better and fairer Scotland.

Britain is not that nation, we might have enjoyed the Olympics but

it is not that nation. You have to somehow tell a story that

acknowledges Labour has made mistakes, it tried as far as it

could to do things by stealth, and then get back to that agenda. I

think Scots, despite the fact they defeated the Labour Party

significantly last year, the view that the Labour Party relatively

well, but they're not listening to them at the moment because they

have not said anything distinctive for years. I agree, this is one of

the great challenge is. The public are in the mood for more honesty in

politics. They're looking for ideas, and it seems a rich seam to be

mined in Scotland by Labour, despite the split for SNP, we want

Labour to be strong at Westminster. There is a narrative that combines

the more forward-looking view of where Scotland is going to be, and

getting back to our old roots, saying progress the policies, the

idea that markets can solve anything, in Scotland people want

Labour to be saying something positive and currently that is not

happening. Gordon Brown, in his speech today, doc about Scottish

values. He used to lecture on British values as Prime Minister,

but today he talked about a distinctive Scottish values having

helped to build the union. Justice and community, and suggesting that

Scotland could still played -- play a leading role in the United

Kingdom. I think discussions I have seen

Gordon involved in, the idea of Scottish identity and nationality,

that is more important in our politics today. If you're someone

who embraces Britishness, you tend to exclude other parts of the

United Kingdom. Isn't that what Gordon Brown did as Prime Minister?

He relentlessly talked about British values. One of the great

things is people can evolve and move on. I believe this issue is

being taken more seriously, and if Gordon Brown can do it at the

Labour Party can do it. Embracing identity and nationality does not

cut across anyone's social democracy or socialism. One of the

problems is the Labour Party has got in a book from ideas in a path

the -- in the past, and Gordon Brown is saying, let's debate it.

He also said, no matter how many changes the SNP makes and how many

rough edges they tried to smooth away, in the end, if you are in the

union you are in the Social Union. Is that true? No, I thought that

was completely preposterous. You can criticise the Social Union for

being and a more fierce, ill- defined thing. Some people think it

is just the fact we live on the same island. I think where Gordon

Brown fails and most of the Westminster classes feel is that we

are going to continue in political relationships in these islands,

whether it is the Post United Kingdom or some continuation of the

United Kingdom in some fuzzy form of independence. The Labour Party,

funnily enough, had a policy that was close to this a number of years

ago was under Donald Dewar. He talked about independence in the UK.

Very short-lived, that phrase! was popular at the time come and

people like Donald Dewar liked it. It went beyond devolution.

Devolution is for a political class. Most punters don't use the term

devolution. If you talk about real issues, the thought of think Henry

was is -- mentioning, then people may begin to listen. The us that

mean you have to start saying what you would do if you were governing

in independent Scotland? I think that is an argument for further

down the line. I am not sure of the SNP policy, but they may still want

to be a nationalist party in an independent Scotland. The point is

we are one Ireland, but this idea of social, commercial and cultural

unions, at these things exist. I am not in the independence camp, I

want to see a union which is transformed. At this point the

electorate will decide in 2014, but at this point might it goes down. A

lot of things can intervene between now and 2014. Let's have a more

confident Scotland, more powers in the Department and the union can be

transformed. My concern is, if the union does not change, then the

seeds of destruction for the union will live there, not necessarily in

Edinburgh. The tis interesting how much Gordon Brown would like to

take to devolution, although he says he favours more powers. He

sounds like he has redeemed -- re- engaging in Scottish politics, do

you think he might take up a more active role at some point? He is

active just outcome are he was off tonight to do with his African

politics issues. He is a global stadium -- global statement. Gordon

Brown as First Minister? Well, I just think he potentially can make

an enormous contribution to Scotland but he has other jobs, as

well. So you think he might like to make a comeback through the

Scottish Parliament? I think you are reading far too much into those

comets. Gordon Brown has a role to play, he started to next to engage.

Gerry Hassan, very briefly? If yes, he is a global player. The last

thing we want is the Blair-Brome years continuing.

Thank you for joining us. The front page of the Scotsman has Brown

page of the Scotsman has Brown joins the fray with attack on devo

max. Some of the Russian athletes are

Some of the Russian athletes are heading home because the Olympics

are over. So is Newsnight Scotland, you can watch again on the BBC

No shortage of weather coming in our direction over the next few

days. Quite a humid day, quite steamy and showers will develop.

They will be quite heavy all over the UK. It is very difficult to

nail down the detail of where the showers will occur. Possibly some

fun there by the afternoon. Temperatures in between the showers

in sunny spells easily getting up to the low 20s. Hopefully for the

south-west it will not be too bad, most -- avoiding most of the

showers, but elsewhere across Wales some heavy ones, and indeed for

Northern Ireland we could well see some heavy showers, slow-moving,

winds not too strong. For Scotland, some bright this away from the far

some bright this away from the far north-east. On Wednesday it turns

really wet and windy across the most northern areas eventually. The

rain will arrive further south, where it is particularly nasty out

west. Warnings have already been issued. We will show you the chart

for Wednesday and you will see what I mean. We are all going to see a