Browse content similar to 23/08/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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recognise that's why we've seen changes over the years. Thank you | :00:01. | :00:11. | |
:00:11. | :00:14. | ||
Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, there seems to be growing | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
opposition to proposals the SNP should become pro-NATO. Is this a | :00:18. | :00:22. | |
serious split in a party which prides itself on its unity? We'll | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
hear from both sides. Also tonight, will minimum pricing | :00:26. | :00:31. | |
for alcohol lead to cross-border price wars? | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
Good evening. This weekend we'll see a meeting of a hitherto rather | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
insignificant subgroup of the SNP. It's attracting attention because | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
it's being seen as the focus of rebellion against the proposals to | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
change policy on NATO. The SNP's National Conference in October will | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
make the decision. In the meantime, opposition to the changes seems to | :00:50. | :01:00. | |
:01:00. | :01:03. | ||
In the 60s, as the SNP began to fight for some sort of electoral | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
credibility. Radical opinion in Scotland was focused on the nuke | :01:07. | :01:13. | |
lar weapons on the US navy and Royal Navy subMarines stationed on | :01:13. | :01:22. | |
the Clyde. Scotland had the holy loch and Faslane reminders of the | :01:22. | :01:28. | |
threat posed by the possibility of a war with the USSR. 40 years on, | :01:28. | :01:33. | |
as the SNP made it into power, it still held onto anti-nuclear and | :01:33. | :01:40. | |
anti-NATO policies which have undoubtedly provided it with votes | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
where the political priority was the nuclear weapons. An independent | :01:44. | :01:51. | |
Scotland should be part of NATO, the SNP are reversing decisions. | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
But earlier this year it became clear that NATO membership was | :01:56. | :02:05. | |
being considered for a -- independent Scotland. There's a lot | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
of behind-the-scenes work going on on difficult issues where they | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
believe the prospeck Tuesday needs to be all together much more | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
fleshed out so the people know what they're supporting. Despite denials | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
at the time, a couple of months later, the SNP high command | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
announced that it does want to move the party onto a pro-NATO footing, | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
though nukes on the Clyde would remain entirely unacceptable. | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
are prepared to work with neighbours and allies, one for all, | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
all for one, that is what NATO is supposed to be about. That is for | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
us and other NATO members primarily about conventional defence, | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
cooperating, operating together, being, watching one another's backs. | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
That's what our neighbours want. We want to get rid of Trident but to | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
work together with neighbours and friends. I will support the | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
conference resolution put forward by Angus rb ertson but the | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
delegates will decide. You'll support the decision? Correct. | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
Since it became clear that the pro- NATO resolution has support at the | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
very top, some commentators had been surprised bit strength of the | :03:15. | :03:21. | |
SNP feeling against the policy change. At least six MSPs have made | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
public their opposition. Others, including ministers, are thought to | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
be uncomfortable with. It only last night the Highland MSP got involved | :03:29. | :03:35. | |
in a Twitter argument with the MP Angus MacNeil asking - what example | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
does it set to oppose weapons of mass destruction then join the | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
weapons of mass destruction's club? In a party that is celebrated its | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
unity of purpose, this is being seen as the most significant | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
questioning of the leadership bit membership since the SNP took power | :03:50. | :03:58. | |
in 2007. It's clearly a political gamble by | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
the leadership and they risk alienating the left-wingers and any | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
voters who supported them mainly because of the defence issue. The | :04:06. | :04:12. | |
outcome of the meeting of SNP/CND and how it feeds into the | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
conference may define how united the SNP will be in the run up to an | :04:15. | :04:24. | |
independence referendum. Now, MSPs who are planning to vote | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
against the party leadership are proving shy this week, but I am | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
joined by the organiser of the SNP/CND group, Bill Ramsay. And | :04:32. | :04:41. | |
from Edinburgh by journalist and former SNP candidate George Kerevan. | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
Bill, how much support do you think you have within the party? | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
Significant amount. You said a number of MSPs were shy in terms of | :04:50. | :05:00. | |
trying to defend party policy, but there's a Devonening -- deafening | :05:00. | :05:09. | |
silence. The idea that MSPs who want to retain party policy is in | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
some way shy, it's the other way round. Can you mention more than | :05:13. | :05:20. | |
two who've come out publicically to support the change in policy? Maybe | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
George can. Are you implying that you have within the Cabinet that | :05:24. | :05:30. | |
hasn't made itself public? implying, I'm not implying anything, | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
it's fact. You've listed six MSPs and at the weekend there will be | :05:35. | :05:41. | |
more. I know of I think two MSPs who have come out and supported, as | :05:41. | :05:47. | |
well as the two MPs of course, maybe there are others. But there | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
hasn't been much from them at the moment in. That sense the idea that | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
the people are trying to defend current policy are rebels is simply | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
not the case. We're defending current policy because we think | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
that an independent Scotland, the way to get rid of Trident, you | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
first of all get rid of Trident then the Scottish people will | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
choose what they want to do. First of all, get rid of Trident. Do you | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
think you have enough support to win? I think the support is growing. | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
We hope to have enough support to win. Do you think they've got any | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
chance of winning, George? It's an honest debate and we'll see. The | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
great thing about this debate is that Scottish people will decide | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
their foreign policy for the first time instead of politicians in | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
London who want to have a policy based on selling more arms or cow | :06:37. | :06:43. | |
to youing to Washington. Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean. It's | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
members of the Scottish National Party. Yes but it's presenting a | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
position ultimately to the referendum in 2014. Whatever | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
happens, whatever is decided is being decided here in Scotland. | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
That's my point. It's not being decided in London where foreign | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
policy is about selling arms and taking a line from the White House. | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
In fact, what will happen in Scotland is we'll take a moral | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
decision. The SNP is totally united on getting rid of Trident. That's | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
not the issue. The issue is how to get rid of nuclear weapons from | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
Europe. For three years the Germans in NATO have been per suing a | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
campaigning to get rid of nuclear weapons in Europe. It's better for | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
Scotland to be in NATO helping the Germans than being on the side | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
lines. The Germans have failed. Hang on, can you just have a stab | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
at answering the question, do you think that Bill ramsy and his | :07:39. | :07:45. | |
supporters have a chance of winning at the conference, or is your | :07:45. | :07:50. | |
assessment that the majority of the party shares your view? I suspect | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
about 7% of the party will accept that Scotland should stay in NATO | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
and fight its anti-nuclear case there. If Scotland stays in NATO, | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
then we'll be doing exactly what Germany has done, failed. Germany | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
is the powerhouse of Europe. It is the centre of the European economy, | :08:08. | :08:14. | |
as we're finding out at moment. It has not only failed to rid itself | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
of the tactical nuclear weapons, it has the support of the German | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
Foreign Minister, the nuclear weapons are actually being upgraded. | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
As well, the Belgian and Dutch Parliament have voted to get rid of | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
the tactical nuclear weapons and they have failed. Therefore we | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
should get rid of Trident first of all, then we can have a debate | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
about whether or not we wish to join NATO. Right, but you can see | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
that it's important if the SNP is asking people to vote for setting | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
up a new country, it's quite important to say whether or not you | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
would like that new country to be part of NATO. That's the choice of | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
the Scottish people. That's the point about independence. Hang on, | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
you might as well say the SNP should have no policies on anything | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
other than becoming independent and everything else should be decided | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
later. No, that's not the case. We are a progressive, left of centre | :09:05. | :09:11. | |
party. This is a big tactical issue. The best way to get rid of nuclear | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
weapons, from a negotiating position, is outside of NATO. | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
Because those who have tried to rid themselves of tactical nuclear | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
weapons... I mean consider the power of Germany at this time. | :09:24. | :09:30. | |
You're wrong about this. Give him a shot George. Bill you're wrong | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
about. This the Germans don't just want rid of the 200 tactical | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
warheads the Americans have in Europe. They want rid of the 2,000 | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
warheads that the Russians have in Europe. So the Germans are trying | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
to push both sides into negotiations because there have | :09:45. | :09:51. | |
never been negotiations over disarming tactical weapons. The | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
Germans, the Belgians, Dutch and Norwegians and the scots should be | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
there to get both sides to take their nukes out of Europe. That's | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
the debate. We both agree on doing that. This is not confrontation | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
politics. We both agree on that. But Scotland should be in NATO. | :10:07. | :10:13. | |
Surely the logic of what you're saying is to use nuclear weapons as | :10:13. | :10:19. | |
bargaining chips for multilateral disarmament. Presumably you | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
disagree with the SNP's policy which is unilaterally to get rid of | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
nuclear weapons. That's not it. The British Government is about to | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
spend �100 billion of money it doesn't really have to build a | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
whole new neek leer missile submarine system. That's hardly | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
going to encourage the Russians to abandon their tactical weapons. | :10:40. | :10:46. | |
That may be. But the logic of what you said was that you would reject | :10:46. | :10:51. | |
unilaterally, therefore you reject SNP policy on not just a new | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
generation of Trident but getting rid of existing law. No that's your | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
logic. The way we'll do this is for major countries in Europe, | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
including an independent Scotland, to gang up and force this change. | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
If Scotland is on the side lines it won't have a vote in this. I don't | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
think the people of Scotland will vote for independence and | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
neutrality, that's a side issue. The issue I want to see is getting | :11:13. | :11:20. | |
an independent Scotland in NATO to have a say. Does that sound like | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
unilateral disarmament to you? Whatever, we have Finland, Sweden, | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
Austria, Ireland, Switzerland, these countries are normal European | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
countries and they're not in NATO. They intervene positively in | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
international relations. In the United States, military analysts | :11:38. | :11:44. | |
refer to NATO as Snow White and the 27 dwarfs. That's the power | :11:44. | :11:52. | |
politics within NATO. That's the relation. I'm curious as to how | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
important this issue is to you? It's a diversion. The issue | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
shouldn't have been raised. important, you know, if the people | :12:01. | :12:07. | |
who support you as George believes that 70% will go against what you | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
want, what is the reaction of the people of you and your people who | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
support you? Are you going to say fine, that's SNP policy, we'll go | :12:14. | :12:20. | |
along with. It or is this a make or break issue? We're going to argue, | :12:20. | :12:26. | |
the SNP aren't like other mainstream parties actually has, | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
sitting here having debates about important issues. In some sense | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
that's a cultural shift. I think the media in Scotland will have to | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
get their heads round it. There's going to be a significant debate in | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
Scotland really significant party. Part of that is to come to a clon | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
collusion. -- conclusion. We believe the way to get - Right if | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
you lose you say that's fine, that's a democratic decision and | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
we'll ge along with it? We'll see what happens. No-one's talking | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
about leaving the party. That fantasy narrative is not being | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
punted by anyone. So you are presumably happy with that, you | :13:05. | :13:12. | |
just win and they shut up? there's an ongoing dialogue. | :13:12. | :13:18. | |
Because you've been brought up in a confrontation television, you can't | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
understand when people narrow their differences. We agree about nuclear | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
weapons, but how to do that, that debate will go on and on. I think | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
we will win support of the Scottish people to stay in NATO. Is there, | :13:33. | :13:40. | |
do you agree with what he says on the broader issues on multilateral | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
disarmament? I think George would not necessarily agree with some of | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
the things as it's interpreted. I'm not getting into that. What we | :13:48. | :13:54. | |
believe is that the way to remove nuclear weapons from Scotland is to | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
remain without NATO and after, when we see the last Trident boat sail | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
down the Clyde, that's when to have the debate of whether or not | :14:02. | :14:08. | |
Scotland should be join NATO. Presumably, I can look forward to | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
having my cultural changed further when a series of internal splits in | :14:12. | :14:20. | |
the SNP are going to be aired in public. It's debate. Sorry internal | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
debate. In the next two years we'll see very good debate. It's good | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
that Scotland is having this debate. One thing I will agree with Bill is | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
that we can't skirt the NATO debate. He might want to leave it till | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
after the referendum. The London media will not allow us to do that. | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
We have to be up front. Thank you both. | :14:38. | :14:43. | |
Would you be a booze price refugee? A cross-border row has broken out | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
by the ruling Labour group in Northumberland to target Scots | :14:47. | :14:54. | |
drinkers once minimum pricing comes into effect. The Council reckon | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
border towns could cash in when a price differential is established. | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
Opponents north and South O'The Border call the proposals | :15:01. | :15:11. | |
irresponsible. David Allison reports. It all looks very peaceful | :15:11. | :15:17. | |
in Berwick. The days of cross- border skirmishes are ancient | :15:17. | :15:27. | |
:15:27. | :15:28. | ||
history. But that could be about to change. Berwick could become a | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
centre for Scots booze tourism if the ruling Labour group on the | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
Council get their way. The leader of the Council wants to take | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
advantage of any price differential on alcohol as a result of minimum | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
pricing being introduced in Scotland some time next year. | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
Thfrpblgts was a way to allow the shops to cash in on trade which | :15:46. | :15:52. | |
would be out of season in the main. You know, towards Christmas time | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
things like this. It was a complete economic argument. The problem with | :15:57. | :16:04. | |
binge drinking in Scotland, we were hoping to act on the difference and | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
the surplus between expendable income in Scotland and expendable | :16:08. | :16:18. | |
:16:18. | :16:18. | ||
income in England. Exploiting borders for retail purposes is | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
common. Take Northern Ireland for example. Attracting shoppers from | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
the republic because of lower VAT and duty. | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
It's not just the weekly shop. Petrol or electrical goods which | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
are attractive. Booze is also a factor. | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
Some politicians in Northumberland are horrified at suggestions they | :16:40. | :16:48. | |
should go down the same route and not lead Lib Dem Anita Romer. | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
I first read the article I couldn't believe it because to me it sounded | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
nonsense. It was patronise together people of Scotland actually. I | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
really don't think Northumberland needs to gain money this way. There | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
are other ways. We're a great tourist place. We have everything. | :17:05. | :17:10. | |
We don't need people coming across from Scotland to buy this cheap | :17:10. | :17:16. | |
booze. In Scotland, the SNP have branded the policy irresponsible | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
and have called on Scottish Labour to distance themselves from Labour | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
in Northumberland. The main issue is the use of public funds as | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
proposed to advertise the fact that alcohol is cheaper in England post | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
minimum pricing. That's the mistake that people are concerned about, | :17:32. | :17:38. | |
the fact that local Councils thought it was a good idea to use | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
public funds for advertising. It's just morally objectionable that | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
they were intending to do that. spokesman for Scottish Labour said | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
their focus is on reducing consumption, but it's for | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
Northumberland Council to make their own decisions. Anyone who | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
says it's an irresponsible idea to attract more trade to an area is | :17:59. | :18:07. | |
being irresponsible. Any idea to engage with more people and sell | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
more of our products from Northumberland to whoever wishes to | :18:12. | :18:18. | |
come here must be the responsible way forward. On the matter of | :18:18. | :18:24. | |
actual alcohol consumption, that is empossess -- that is people's | :18:24. | :18:26. | |
personal choice. Whether controlling the hours you can buy | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
alcohol or minimum pricing, Scottish governments of various | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
complefplgss have moved to tighter controls on drinks. The current | :18:35. | :18:42. | |
Health Secretary said, "Introducing a minimum price per unit will | :18:42. | :18:48. | |
enable to tackle Scotland's problem with alcohol and save lives. The UK | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
Government is no considering a minimum price for alcohol in | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
England. It's highly unlikely that a minimum price that will only | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
affect a proportion of alcohol sales would make it worth their | :18:59. | :19:09. | |
:19:09. | :19:14. | ||
while to travel as it would cost Of course, what actually will | :19:14. | :19:20. | |
happen in places across the border remains to be seen. But if you | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
fancy a quiet visit to this historic town, you might just have | :19:24. | :19:33. | |
a year left to do it. Quick look at the papers: I should | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
tell you that one story tonight is that the Sun have taken the | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
decision to public the naked pictures of Prince Harry. On the | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
front page in the herald - abuser front page in the herald - abuser | :19:45. | :19:50. |