23/08/2012 Newsnight Scotland


23/08/2012

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recognise that's why we've seen changes over the years. Thank you

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Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, there seems to be growing

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opposition to proposals the SNP should become pro-NATO. Is this a

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serious split in a party which prides itself on its unity? We'll

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hear from both sides. Also tonight, will minimum pricing

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for alcohol lead to cross-border price wars?

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Good evening. This weekend we'll see a meeting of a hitherto rather

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insignificant subgroup of the SNP. It's attracting attention because

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it's being seen as the focus of rebellion against the proposals to

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change policy on NATO. The SNP's National Conference in October will

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make the decision. In the meantime, opposition to the changes seems to

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In the 60s, as the SNP began to fight for some sort of electoral

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credibility. Radical opinion in Scotland was focused on the nuke

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lar weapons on the US navy and Royal Navy subMarines stationed on

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the Clyde. Scotland had the holy loch and Faslane reminders of the

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threat posed by the possibility of a war with the USSR. 40 years on,

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as the SNP made it into power, it still held onto anti-nuclear and

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anti-NATO policies which have undoubtedly provided it with votes

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where the political priority was the nuclear weapons. An independent

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Scotland should be part of NATO, the SNP are reversing decisions.

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But earlier this year it became clear that NATO membership was

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being considered for a -- independent Scotland. There's a lot

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of behind-the-scenes work going on on difficult issues where they

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believe the prospeck Tuesday needs to be all together much more

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fleshed out so the people know what they're supporting. Despite denials

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at the time, a couple of months later, the SNP high command

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announced that it does want to move the party onto a pro-NATO footing,

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though nukes on the Clyde would remain entirely unacceptable.

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are prepared to work with neighbours and allies, one for all,

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all for one, that is what NATO is supposed to be about. That is for

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us and other NATO members primarily about conventional defence,

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cooperating, operating together, being, watching one another's backs.

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That's what our neighbours want. We want to get rid of Trident but to

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work together with neighbours and friends. I will support the

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conference resolution put forward by Angus rb ertson but the

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delegates will decide. You'll support the decision? Correct.

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Since it became clear that the pro- NATO resolution has support at the

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very top, some commentators had been surprised bit strength of the

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SNP feeling against the policy change. At least six MSPs have made

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public their opposition. Others, including ministers, are thought to

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be uncomfortable with. It only last night the Highland MSP got involved

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in a Twitter argument with the MP Angus MacNeil asking - what example

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does it set to oppose weapons of mass destruction then join the

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weapons of mass destruction's club? In a party that is celebrated its

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unity of purpose, this is being seen as the most significant

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questioning of the leadership bit membership since the SNP took power

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in 2007. It's clearly a political gamble by

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the leadership and they risk alienating the left-wingers and any

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voters who supported them mainly because of the defence issue. The

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outcome of the meeting of SNP/CND and how it feeds into the

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conference may define how united the SNP will be in the run up to an

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independence referendum. Now, MSPs who are planning to vote

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against the party leadership are proving shy this week, but I am

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joined by the organiser of the SNP/CND group, Bill Ramsay. And

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from Edinburgh by journalist and former SNP candidate George Kerevan.

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Bill, how much support do you think you have within the party?

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Significant amount. You said a number of MSPs were shy in terms of

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trying to defend party policy, but there's a Devonening -- deafening

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silence. The idea that MSPs who want to retain party policy is in

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some way shy, it's the other way round. Can you mention more than

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two who've come out publicically to support the change in policy? Maybe

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George can. Are you implying that you have within the Cabinet that

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hasn't made itself public? implying, I'm not implying anything,

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it's fact. You've listed six MSPs and at the weekend there will be

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more. I know of I think two MSPs who have come out and supported, as

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well as the two MPs of course, maybe there are others. But there

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hasn't been much from them at the moment in. That sense the idea that

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the people are trying to defend current policy are rebels is simply

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not the case. We're defending current policy because we think

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that an independent Scotland, the way to get rid of Trident, you

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first of all get rid of Trident then the Scottish people will

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choose what they want to do. First of all, get rid of Trident. Do you

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think you have enough support to win? I think the support is growing.

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We hope to have enough support to win. Do you think they've got any

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chance of winning, George? It's an honest debate and we'll see. The

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great thing about this debate is that Scottish people will decide

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their foreign policy for the first time instead of politicians in

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London who want to have a policy based on selling more arms or cow

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to youing to Washington. Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean. It's

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members of the Scottish National Party. Yes but it's presenting a

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position ultimately to the referendum in 2014. Whatever

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happens, whatever is decided is being decided here in Scotland.

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That's my point. It's not being decided in London where foreign

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policy is about selling arms and taking a line from the White House.

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In fact, what will happen in Scotland is we'll take a moral

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decision. The SNP is totally united on getting rid of Trident. That's

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not the issue. The issue is how to get rid of nuclear weapons from

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Europe. For three years the Germans in NATO have been per suing a

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campaigning to get rid of nuclear weapons in Europe. It's better for

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Scotland to be in NATO helping the Germans than being on the side

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lines. The Germans have failed. Hang on, can you just have a stab

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at answering the question, do you think that Bill ramsy and his

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supporters have a chance of winning at the conference, or is your

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assessment that the majority of the party shares your view? I suspect

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about 7% of the party will accept that Scotland should stay in NATO

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and fight its anti-nuclear case there. If Scotland stays in NATO,

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then we'll be doing exactly what Germany has done, failed. Germany

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is the powerhouse of Europe. It is the centre of the European economy,

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as we're finding out at moment. It has not only failed to rid itself

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of the tactical nuclear weapons, it has the support of the German

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Foreign Minister, the nuclear weapons are actually being upgraded.

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As well, the Belgian and Dutch Parliament have voted to get rid of

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the tactical nuclear weapons and they have failed. Therefore we

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should get rid of Trident first of all, then we can have a debate

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about whether or not we wish to join NATO. Right, but you can see

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that it's important if the SNP is asking people to vote for setting

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up a new country, it's quite important to say whether or not you

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would like that new country to be part of NATO. That's the choice of

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the Scottish people. That's the point about independence. Hang on,

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you might as well say the SNP should have no policies on anything

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other than becoming independent and everything else should be decided

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later. No, that's not the case. We are a progressive, left of centre

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party. This is a big tactical issue. The best way to get rid of nuclear

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weapons, from a negotiating position, is outside of NATO.

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Because those who have tried to rid themselves of tactical nuclear

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weapons... I mean consider the power of Germany at this time.

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You're wrong about this. Give him a shot George. Bill you're wrong

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about. This the Germans don't just want rid of the 200 tactical

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warheads the Americans have in Europe. They want rid of the 2,000

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warheads that the Russians have in Europe. So the Germans are trying

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to push both sides into negotiations because there have

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never been negotiations over disarming tactical weapons. The

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Germans, the Belgians, Dutch and Norwegians and the scots should be

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there to get both sides to take their nukes out of Europe. That's

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the debate. We both agree on doing that. This is not confrontation

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politics. We both agree on that. But Scotland should be in NATO.

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Surely the logic of what you're saying is to use nuclear weapons as

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bargaining chips for multilateral disarmament. Presumably you

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disagree with the SNP's policy which is unilaterally to get rid of

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nuclear weapons. That's not it. The British Government is about to

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spend �100 billion of money it doesn't really have to build a

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whole new neek leer missile submarine system. That's hardly

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going to encourage the Russians to abandon their tactical weapons.

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That may be. But the logic of what you said was that you would reject

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unilaterally, therefore you reject SNP policy on not just a new

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generation of Trident but getting rid of existing law. No that's your

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logic. The way we'll do this is for major countries in Europe,

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including an independent Scotland, to gang up and force this change.

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If Scotland is on the side lines it won't have a vote in this. I don't

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think the people of Scotland will vote for independence and

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neutrality, that's a side issue. The issue I want to see is getting

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an independent Scotland in NATO to have a say. Does that sound like

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unilateral disarmament to you? Whatever, we have Finland, Sweden,

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Austria, Ireland, Switzerland, these countries are normal European

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countries and they're not in NATO. They intervene positively in

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international relations. In the United States, military analysts

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refer to NATO as Snow White and the 27 dwarfs. That's the power

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politics within NATO. That's the relation. I'm curious as to how

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important this issue is to you? It's a diversion. The issue

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shouldn't have been raised. important, you know, if the people

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who support you as George believes that 70% will go against what you

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want, what is the reaction of the people of you and your people who

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support you? Are you going to say fine, that's SNP policy, we'll go

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along with. It or is this a make or break issue? We're going to argue,

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the SNP aren't like other mainstream parties actually has,

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sitting here having debates about important issues. In some sense

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that's a cultural shift. I think the media in Scotland will have to

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get their heads round it. There's going to be a significant debate in

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Scotland really significant party. Part of that is to come to a clon

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collusion. -- conclusion. We believe the way to get - Right if

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you lose you say that's fine, that's a democratic decision and

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we'll ge along with it? We'll see what happens. No-one's talking

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about leaving the party. That fantasy narrative is not being

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punted by anyone. So you are presumably happy with that, you

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just win and they shut up? there's an ongoing dialogue.

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Because you've been brought up in a confrontation television, you can't

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understand when people narrow their differences. We agree about nuclear

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weapons, but how to do that, that debate will go on and on. I think

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we will win support of the Scottish people to stay in NATO. Is there,

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do you agree with what he says on the broader issues on multilateral

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disarmament? I think George would not necessarily agree with some of

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the things as it's interpreted. I'm not getting into that. What we

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believe is that the way to remove nuclear weapons from Scotland is to

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remain without NATO and after, when we see the last Trident boat sail

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down the Clyde, that's when to have the debate of whether or not

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Scotland should be join NATO. Presumably, I can look forward to

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having my cultural changed further when a series of internal splits in

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the SNP are going to be aired in public. It's debate. Sorry internal

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debate. In the next two years we'll see very good debate. It's good

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that Scotland is having this debate. One thing I will agree with Bill is

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that we can't skirt the NATO debate. He might want to leave it till

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after the referendum. The London media will not allow us to do that.

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We have to be up front. Thank you both.

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Would you be a booze price refugee? A cross-border row has broken out

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by the ruling Labour group in Northumberland to target Scots

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drinkers once minimum pricing comes into effect. The Council reckon

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border towns could cash in when a price differential is established.

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Opponents north and South O'The Border call the proposals

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irresponsible. David Allison reports. It all looks very peaceful

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in Berwick. The days of cross- border skirmishes are ancient

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history. But that could be about to change. Berwick could become a

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centre for Scots booze tourism if the ruling Labour group on the

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Council get their way. The leader of the Council wants to take

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advantage of any price differential on alcohol as a result of minimum

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pricing being introduced in Scotland some time next year.

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Thfrpblgts was a way to allow the shops to cash in on trade which

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would be out of season in the main. You know, towards Christmas time

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things like this. It was a complete economic argument. The problem with

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binge drinking in Scotland, we were hoping to act on the difference and

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the surplus between expendable income in Scotland and expendable

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:16:18.:16:18.

income in England. Exploiting borders for retail purposes is

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common. Take Northern Ireland for example. Attracting shoppers from

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the republic because of lower VAT and duty.

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It's not just the weekly shop. Petrol or electrical goods which

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are attractive. Booze is also a factor.

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Some politicians in Northumberland are horrified at suggestions they

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should go down the same route and not lead Lib Dem Anita Romer.

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I first read the article I couldn't believe it because to me it sounded

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nonsense. It was patronise together people of Scotland actually. I

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really don't think Northumberland needs to gain money this way. There

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are other ways. We're a great tourist place. We have everything.

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We don't need people coming across from Scotland to buy this cheap

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booze. In Scotland, the SNP have branded the policy irresponsible

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and have called on Scottish Labour to distance themselves from Labour

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in Northumberland. The main issue is the use of public funds as

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proposed to advertise the fact that alcohol is cheaper in England post

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minimum pricing. That's the mistake that people are concerned about,

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the fact that local Councils thought it was a good idea to use

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public funds for advertising. It's just morally objectionable that

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they were intending to do that. spokesman for Scottish Labour said

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their focus is on reducing consumption, but it's for

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Northumberland Council to make their own decisions. Anyone who

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says it's an irresponsible idea to attract more trade to an area is

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being irresponsible. Any idea to engage with more people and sell

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more of our products from Northumberland to whoever wishes to

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come here must be the responsible way forward. On the matter of

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actual alcohol consumption, that is empossess -- that is people's

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personal choice. Whether controlling the hours you can buy

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alcohol or minimum pricing, Scottish governments of various

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complefplgss have moved to tighter controls on drinks. The current

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Health Secretary said, "Introducing a minimum price per unit will

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enable to tackle Scotland's problem with alcohol and save lives. The UK

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Government is no considering a minimum price for alcohol in

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England. It's highly unlikely that a minimum price that will only

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affect a proportion of alcohol sales would make it worth their

:18:59.:19:09.
:19:09.:19:14.

while to travel as it would cost Of course, what actually will

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happen in places across the border remains to be seen. But if you

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fancy a quiet visit to this historic town, you might just have

:19:24.:19:33.

a year left to do it. Quick look at the papers: I should

:19:33.:19:38.

tell you that one story tonight is that the Sun have taken the

:19:38.:19:41.

decision to public the naked pictures of Prince Harry. On the

:19:41.:19:45.

front page in the herald - abuser front page in the herald - abuser

:19:45.:19:50.

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