19/09/2012 Newsnight Scotland

contempt? OK. That is your opinion. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland,

could an independent Scotland of orders benefits bill? The Work and

Pensions Secretary claims not, as he got a point? And is the

government to secretive? The Information Commissioner seems do

think so. Good evening. When the man in

charge in the UK's benefit systems in this morning that an independent

Scotland would not be able to afford his welfare bill the

reaction from the SNP was ferocious. A fence of said Alex Salmond. The

Work and Pensions Secretary had claimed Scotland received a six %

more per person in welfare payments compared to the rest of the UK. Not

unreasonable says the First Minister after all we pay more in

taxes. Towns like this one are still trying to recover from the

loss of traditional industries such as shipbuilding. While they have

made some progress moving towards the service sector, manufacturing

is 40% down on where it was in 1999. A lot of people remain dependent on

welfare. Things are set to get tougher. The government is aiming

to take �10 billion out of the welfare budget and two-thirds of

that is made up of spending on pensioners and they are not been

touched. It is another third for the cuts will hit and that includes

the likes of those on incapacity benefit and the disabled. People

like Henry Sherlock, registered blind and suffering from heart

disease and depression who gave evidence to the committee yesterday.

Been judged, it is like doing a crime and that is what it feels

like. I am not a criminal. I am a human being who needs additional

support. If Scotland was independent, what would happen to

welfare? The work and pension secretary in Scotland today said

the present arrangement in the union means that Scotland it's a

good deal and independence would mean either a higher taxes are

welfare cuts. A simple question, he just needs to answer because they

think the Scottish people need to know. There is more spending in

Scotland on welfare than in other parts of England, how were you

going to cover that gap? The First Minister in London for a meeting

with the Prime Minister was quick to respond. The number of people

employed in Scotland is greater than in the UK as a whole. The

number of people are economically inactive in Scotland is lower than

the UK average. I am not sure if Iain Duncan Smyth is aware of this

but perhaps he should go for he comes to Scotland again and repeats

such self-evident nonsense. The SNP in says that an independent

Scotland would be in a relatively good position regarding its ability

to pay the welfare bill. Be savoured across the UK social

protection as a percentage of total revenues was 43% in 2010 and 42% in

2011. In Scotland, the Social Protection Bill was 42% in 2010 and

40% in 2011. Look at the figure from another angle and there are

some potential concerns, especially when you look at the figures are

based on Scotland's population as a percentage of the UK currently

around 8.3%. In 2011, 7.8% of housing benefit was spent in

Scotland the low population share partly because of higher rental

costs in London. Take disability living allowance, Scott's account

for 11% of that budget and it is a similar story with incapacity

benefit, 11.3% coming from north of the border. In March, Nicola

Sturgeon told the SNP conference that independence would allow the

Scottish government to combat poverty and maintain spending.

only real independence will give us the tools that we need to rid

Scotland of the poverty and deprivation that still scours our

nation. What could an independent Scotland actually afford? It all

depends on revenues and that is the subject of intense debate, not

least because about what we get back from North Sea oil and gas.

think it is very difficult to avoid welfare cups with that one of two

measures. Either it will be necessary to increase taxes or

alternatively to raise more taxes through greater prosperity. It can

be done. If you begin with the idea that you are having a constant

level of benefit that the level of benefit to be had at the moment is

the right one and you want to try and protect a particular group or

improve the circumstances of a particular group, then it needs to

come from somewhere because you have captured the Budget. This is a

complex debate but ultimately it boils down to a political argument

and the question of who you believe. The uncertainty is that in places

were for one reason or another welfare has become a way of life,

things are set to get tougher. We could not persuade a Scottish

government Minister to come on the programme but we are joined by a

Eilidh Whiteford who speaks on welfare must the -- matters at

Westminster. She is in Aberdeen and I am joined in the Glasgow studio

by the Labour MP Willie Bain it. Thank you for joining us. Can we

begin with you, Iain Duncan Smyth asked the question of the SNP which

is if you want to maintain well there, you need to put taxes up or

cut other services. Which is it? think the reality is that it has

become very clear throughout today that welfare would be more

affordable in an independent Scotland. If you look at our

spending on social protection over the last five years you see clearly

that we are spending and lower proportion of our revenues and a

low proportion of our GDP on social protection than on the UK as a

whole. I think this is a distorted debate and I just wish we to be

having a serious discussion. When you talk of social protection that

includes things like pensions which is a large chunk of that. If you

look at benefits, when it comes to disability living Alan's and

incapacity there is 11% compared to a population share of 8.3%. Some

benefits are very expensive aren't they? That is true. We know we have

long-term problems with health in Scotland. We have at a lower life

expectancy and I do not think there is a quick solution. Interestingly,

we are already seeing evidence that the smoking ban a few years ago is

already having positive impacts on people's health and I think it is

important that we continue to try and help people get better health

so that we do not have to make unnecessary spending in those areas.

At the end of the day, Scotland is contributing 9.6% of the revenues

to the UK Exchequer on the basis of an 8.3% population. We are getting

out of that 9.3% so we're actually putting in more than we are getting

at. What were then - and will bother spending go at it that the

SNP were in charge in Scotland? would not be asking disabled people

to pay for a recession that has not have their own making. They think

the other thing you would not see his massive Cup's to the benefits

facing disabled people and working families. I think whatever

political complexion of the government was in Scotland we would

not be seeing are the kind of welfare cuts and the assault on

disadvantaged people that we have seen over the last few months in UK

government. This is a limb or hypothetical, so let us start off

with some basics. Would there be a Scottish Labour Party in an

independent Scotland? We are hoping to win the referendum. What would

happen if Scotland was the Independent? We're hoping to win it.

We will play a vital role in this got there - a Scottish government

in 2016. Those who are against independence make arguments based

on what would happen in Scotland were independent so that is what

this discussion is about. Do you agree with the Work and Pensions

Secretary that benefits would have to be cut or taxes would have to

increase? Let us talk money. In Scotland we have �1,122 extra

spending per head of population and the rest of the UK. That is right

because we are part of the fiscal and welfare Union and that is

delivered since 1999 until 2000 and make. Fiscal transfers would not

have happened if we had been a separate state. That is the benefit

of actually been part of the fiscal union. If we separated off and had

economic model and that she wants us to follow, taking decisions on

tax - maggots taxing and borrowing on a different place unfortunately,

as a researcher found, it means higher government borrowing costs

and that means lower spending for higher taxes. We that also mean

that your constituents who, if they feel they are going to suffer as a

result of the coalition's reforms, are finding that a government they

did not vote for it is taking decisions that they perhaps to not

approve of and therefore as they are represented as, does not make

sense that you would rather those decisions were taken closer to

those constituents rather than in London? What they are saying to me

is trying to bring in a system of running an economy and that would

be for keeps, not just for it two Partners, for keeps, that brings in

the worst elements of what went wrong in the Eurozone, would be a

disaster, a disaster for disabled people who rely on government for

welfare. Could you respond to that? I am really disappointed, actually

from Willie Bain who comes from a constituency with one of the

highest unemployment rates in the whole of the UK. The best way to

get people off benefits is to create job opportunities. You

cannot do that if you have at a stagnating economy and you are

failing to invest and stimulate that economy to create jobs. Alex

Salmond was in London today and he was trying to get money for

projects that the Scottish government has ready to go to

stimulate the economy and create jobs. That is the fundamental way

to get people off the unemployment. You disapprove of the secretary's

reforms. We to reform welfare in any way? Will, I think there are

lots of ways they can be reformed. For a start, the biggest problem

with the welfare system up to now has been the disincentives for

people who want to go back to work. That is where the secretary and I

agree. I think what we have seen over the past few months, I am

having it in my constituency, his people who are very manifestly not

able to work, who have been categorised as fit for work but

have absolutely no realistic Do you agree with that point, that

reform needs to happen? Firstly we need to get people into work and

under this First Minister there are 21,000 more children being brought

up in a household where nobody is working. Alex Salmond might have

been in London today but SNP Members of Parliament were not

doing their job in the House of Commons, calling for capital

spending to be brought forward. If Eilidh Whiteford, gear if us want

tough decision the SNP would make on welfare. At the toughest

decision is to vote for parties who would acknowledge that people need

support. There is no quick or easy way to do it but unless we take

those decisions we were not get anywhere. Thank you both very much

for joining us. . One and in charge of enforcing

Scotland's freedom of information laws sees her job as being made

more difficult by the weight public services are run. --. Woman in

charge. In her annual report the Information Commissioner expresses

concern about so-called arm's- length organisations working for

councils. The new information commissioner

for Scotland echoes some of the concerns of her predecessor. She

notes that more and more people are making Freedom of Information

request, perhaps as a result of economic circumstances, and that

public organisations have fewer and fewer resources to answer them.

What's more, a rising number of appeals have been by ordinary

citizens against decisions by local government. Ceases her ever-growing

concern is that public services are increasingly provided by what she

describes as aren't lense -- buy arms length organisations who why

not subject to freedom of information law.

Any of us can write to any organisation but freedom of

information do so us an enforceable right. -- gives us. Joining me now

from Bunt -- Dundee is Kevin Dunion, who was Scotland's freedom of

information commissioner until earlier this year. One question I

posed in the short film was, his freedom of information legislation

failed? It has been a great success, not only the amount of information

being disclosed but also the fact that many public authorities are

extremely comfortable with disclosing information. I think at

the police forces, which have been transformed in their culture in

terms of how prepared they are to give information in Scotland. That

challenge, really, is that it does demand but the authorities to

invest in having freedom of information officers and record

management and one of the successes of my successor is that it is clear

from the statistics that a number of the appeals come and Ford are

because authorities are simply not responding to Freedom of

Information request atoll and really they should not be happening.

Doesn't that reflect on the fact that the culture may have changed

in some public authorities but not across the public sector in

Scotland? It is difficult to know. One thing we can see but -- is that

in the last year the number of appeals coming to the Commissioner

has increased by 25 %. In the case of the Scottish government, by

almost 100 %. We don't know if that is because there has been a

significant spike in the number of requests or because of failings at

the front line in terms of not responding appropriately. What is

clear, however is, -- however, is that the public are prepared to

appeal and that in about two-thirds of cases they will get some or all

of the information they wanted. issue which has not yet been

resolved is these arm's-length organisation so -- organisations.

That is not going to change. How concerned are you about that?

hope it eventually is going to change. I don't understand why the

Government is dragging its feet. It says it wants to wait until that

current amendment bill goes through Parliament but that should go

through quite soon and it is quite an agreed bill. It is no reason to

hold back designating these arms length organisations. Some 130, 140

have been set up by local authorities, like the private

prisons providing prison services in places like Kilmarnock, which

should be in the scope of legislation. In England they are

getting on with it and doing something about bringing the Law

Society and the Local Government Association within the scope of the

Act. For some reason the government has not been enthusiastic about

getting on and addressing an agenda which is this government more

secretive than past administrations at Holy Rood? I don't think it is

any more secretive than its predecessors. I think one of the

great mysteries that I have to confront, dealing with this

Amendment Bill, is that the government in Scotland is intent on

being as secretive as the UK government in terms of giving us

absolute extension to the Queen and Prince Charles so any releases --

anything relating to the monarch and the heir to the throne.

Yesterday there was a tribunal in England with three judges which

ruled that a journalist should be given information in request -- in

respect of civil information requests regarding Prince Charles

and they said but essentially the public interest in knowing on what

issues and when Prince Charles was advocating and lobbying the

government should be disclosed. That is going to be closed off if

the amendment which the Scottish government is pushing him go

through. Thank you for joining us. Tomorrow's front pages now. The

Scotsman, ministers warning on welfare bill deficit. They herald,

benefits far older Scots tearing society apart. Let's finish with a

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds

musical interlude. There was plenty of September

sunshine today and there will be much less tomorrow a. Quite a wet

day for Northern England, southern Scotland and Northern Ireland. Just

11 degrees in Newcastle. Further south temperatures are a bit higher

and we will get sunshine coming through in places. It will feel

reasonably pleasant when the sun comes through and the winds are

fairly light. A fine afternoon across south-west England, across

Wales Act -- affair bitter of cloud. North Wales prone to patchy rain. -

- a fair bit of cloud. The rain is persistent across the central belt

of Scotland but northern Scotland, another bright spot. Thursday, but

rather cloudy, wet day for the northern parts of the UK. Southern

parts, generally dry for Thursday. On Friday, the weather front that