24/10/2012 Newsnight Scotland


24/10/2012

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 24/10/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: The BBC has evidence that the

:00:10.:00:12.

Rangers administrators knew the club's takeover was funded by

:00:12.:00:17.

future ticket sales. So why did they deny it?

:00:17.:00:19.

Also tonight: the row over the Scottish

:00:19.:00:23.

government and Europe continues. The First Minister says he is

:00:23.:00:26.

thinking about referring himself under the ministerial code. We will

:00:26.:00:29.

ask the leader of the Liberal Democrats, who raised a point of

:00:29.:00:32.

order on the issue yesterday, how he intends to pursue Alex Salmond

:00:32.:00:35.

tomorrow. Good evening. Tonight, new

:00:35.:00:39.

revelations in the Rangers case. The BBC has learnt that Duff and

:00:39.:00:42.

Phelps, the Rangers administrators, knew that Craig Whyte's purchase of

:00:42.:00:45.

the club was funded by future ticket sales. Duff and Phelps have

:00:45.:00:49.

repeatedly denied that they knew this. The evidence comes in a taped

:00:49.:00:51.

conversation between Craig Whyte and a senior Duff and Phelps

:00:51.:00:55.

partner, David Grier. I am joined now by our investigations

:00:55.:01:05.
:01:05.:01:07.

correspondent. Three what is going on? Back in May, we revealed

:01:07.:01:11.

allegations that Duff and Phelps, the administrators of Rangers, had

:01:11.:01:14.

been involved potentially in a conflict of interest so serious

:01:14.:01:17.

that they should not have accepted the appointment as administrators

:01:18.:01:21.

in the first place. This involved a series of e-mails between the

:01:21.:01:25.

takeover team have, of which Duff and Phelps were a key part, which

:01:25.:01:34.

appeared to show that they had intimate knowledge of the hated

:01:34.:01:38.

Ticketus deal. Their senior partner, David Grier, categorically denied

:01:38.:01:42.

that at the time of the Craig Whyte takeover of Rangers, he had any

:01:42.:01:47.

knowledge that funds from Ticketus were being used to acquire the club.

:01:47.:01:51.

He said the accusation was wrong and defamatory. But the secret

:01:51.:01:55.

recording you are about to hear not only shows that David Kirov Gough

:01:55.:02:00.

and Phelps knew all about the Ticketus arrangements, but that

:02:00.:02:02.

they were rigorously pursuing a line of denial because they thought

:02:02.:02:12.
:02:12.:02:47.

This was in a restaurant. Where does the take come from? This

:02:47.:02:54.

conversation was recorded by Craig Whyte with David Grier on 31st May

:02:54.:02:59.

this year, just a week after the BBC broadcast its programme. This

:02:59.:03:03.

tape will form part of an upcoming case, ironically brought by Duff

:03:03.:03:11.

and Phelps on behalf of a Rangers creditor. We have taken two steps

:03:12.:03:16.

to ensure its provenance, and we have had a voice recognition expert

:03:16.:03:21.

confirm that the voice is indeed that of David Grier. And you will

:03:21.:03:26.

presumably be passing this on to the various Lordships and

:03:26.:03:30.

institutions who are investigating this? There are two investigations

:03:30.:03:34.

currently running into Duff and Phelps. The first is by the

:03:34.:03:40.

industry regulator. The second is by Lord hotch, Scotland's most

:03:40.:03:45.

senior insolvency judge. They are both looking into the BBC's

:03:45.:03:48.

allegations on whether or not the appointment was excepted correctly

:03:48.:03:55.

by Duff and Phelps. We are aware that both ignored Hodge and the

:03:55.:03:59.

others are aware of tonight's broadcast. This gets terribly

:04:00.:04:05.

complicated. The basic issue here is that Duff and Phelps, the

:04:05.:04:09.

argument goes, should not have been the Rangers administrators if they

:04:09.:04:13.

were involved with Craig Whyte prior to the company going into

:04:14.:04:18.

administration. This means that not only they were involved with Craig

:04:18.:04:23.

White, but they knew about the structure of the takeover, despite

:04:23.:04:28.

denying previously that they knew anything about it? The Ticketus

:04:28.:04:34.

deal effectively allowed Craig Whyte to buy Rangers, which is now

:04:35.:04:39.

facing liquidation. The company will be liquidated within a

:04:39.:04:49.
:04:49.:04:49.

fortnight. This was the deal that helped collapse Rangers. There is a

:04:49.:04:54.

hearing coming up on 31st October. This is a crucial hearing. It is

:04:54.:04:58.

Before Lord Hodge. At the hearing, Rangers will be officially

:04:58.:05:03.

liquidated. The administration will end and will be passed on to the

:05:03.:05:08.

liquidators. This is when Duff and Phelps' fees can be discussed.

:05:09.:05:15.

Their fees could you stand at �3.1 million, but that has to be

:05:15.:05:20.

ratified by the court. Hovering over all of this are these two

:05:20.:05:26.

investigations. So there is still a long way to go in this story.

:05:26.:05:30.

it the case that the fund Phelps may have more to worry about Dan

:05:30.:05:36.

Money? Only a week or so ago, when we ran the interview with Craig

:05:36.:05:41.

Whyte, they reacted at that time by saying that any allegations against

:05:41.:05:45.

them were not just allegations against the company, but they are

:05:45.:05:50.

acting as administrators in a sort of quasi judicial capacity?

:05:50.:05:54.

Administrators of a failing company are agents of the court. They have

:05:54.:05:58.

a code of conduct they must appear to. There are two interesting

:05:58.:06:03.

things about this. We don't know what Duff and Phelps told Lord Hogg

:06:03.:06:07.

at the time of their appointment about their prior involvement with

:06:07.:06:11.

Craig Whyte and whether they knew about the hated Ticketus deal.

:06:11.:06:15.

Secondly, after the BBC's allegations, Lord hotch

:06:15.:06:21.

specifically asked Duff and Phelps for a report about the allegations

:06:21.:06:24.

and whether there was a conflict of interest and they did know about

:06:24.:06:30.

the Ticketus deal. We don't know what Duff and Phelps told Lord a

:06:30.:06:34.

haunch, but I am very curious about what they did tell him at that time

:06:34.:06:39.

and whether that ties in with what we have heard on this recording.

:06:39.:06:43.

What are Duff and Phelps a saying about all this? They released a

:06:43.:06:48.

statement just over an hour ago. It runs like this. "as we have

:06:48.:06:54.

previously stated, Duff and Phelps maintain that our conduct of the

:06:54.:06:57.

administration was carried out to the highest standards. We do not

:06:57.:07:01.

respond information taken out of context, as we believe it is the

:07:01.:07:05.

case in this BBC story. We welcome the opportunity to review a

:07:06.:07:15.

complete copy of the information Now, the First Minister is

:07:15.:07:17.

considering reporting himself under the ministerial code, amid

:07:17.:07:20.

accusations of lying, misspending public money and misleading the

:07:20.:07:23.

public, all in connection with the issue of law officers' advice on

:07:23.:07:25.

the place in the EU of an independent Scotland. Mr Salmond

:07:25.:07:28.

denies any wrongdoing, and his office reminds callers that he has

:07:28.:07:31.

been reported five times already under the ministerial code, and

:07:31.:07:34.

exonerated five times. In a moment, we will hear from the leader of the

:07:34.:07:40.

Liberal Democrats, after this report.

:07:40.:07:44.

We were told by the First Minister that he had legal advice about

:07:44.:07:47.

Scotland's place in the European Union in the event of independence.

:07:48.:07:53.

It turns out they didn't have any legal advice at all. This shows

:07:53.:07:57.

that when you'd shine the spotlight on the case of full -- case for

:07:57.:08:00.

separation, it falls apart. The a maybe smiling through the pain, but

:08:00.:08:05.

even the SNP would be hard pushed to say that yesterday was a good

:08:05.:08:10.

day for the Government. In the afternoon, Nicola Sturgeon had

:08:10.:08:13.

stood up in the chamber and said the Government would be seeking

:08:13.:08:19.

legal advice from the law officers on the EU membership issue.

:08:19.:08:23.

Scottish government has previously cited opinions from a number of

:08:23.:08:28.

eminent legal authorities, past and present, in support of the

:08:28.:08:33.

independent Scotland. Or there! support of its view that an

:08:33.:08:36.

independent Scotland will continue in membership of the European Union,

:08:36.:08:42.

but has not sought specific legal advice. However, as the Edinburgh

:08:42.:08:46.

agreement provides the exact context of the process of obtaining

:08:46.:08:51.

independence, we now have the basis on which specifically device can be

:08:51.:08:59.

sought. Is this a point of order, Mr Martin? For some MSPs, eyebrows

:08:59.:09:06.

were raised. They thought they had heard something else in the past.

:09:06.:09:09.

Paul Martin called Alex Salmond a bare-faced lie in a press release.

:09:09.:09:13.

He was referring to an interview earlier this year with Mr Salmond

:09:13.:09:17.

and Andrew Neil. The First Minister gave some viewers the impression

:09:17.:09:21.

that legal advice had already been sought by the Government. Have you

:09:21.:09:27.

sought advice on this matter? have, yes. What did they say?

:09:27.:09:30.

can read that in the documents we have put forward. The First

:09:30.:09:34.

Minister said he was referring to the wider debate on Scotland's

:09:34.:09:41.

future. The opposition parties and most newspapers scoffed. The deputy

:09:41.:09:45.

First Minister took up the defence. On this programme last night, he

:09:45.:09:49.

said there was no case to answer, that the Government had taken

:09:49.:09:55.

general legal advice, not specific advice on Europe. Any fair-minded

:09:55.:10:00.

person who reads the entire transcript of that interview would

:10:00.:10:05.

see that he was talking about the general debate. He cited a number

:10:05.:10:09.

of legal opinions. He was also talking about general government

:10:09.:10:14.

documents, all of which are underpinned by law officers' advice.

:10:14.:10:19.

Did Alex Salmond Pele feared, or was he just misunderstood? Maybe

:10:19.:10:23.

the real issue is, what is the government's relationship with its

:10:23.:10:30.

own lawyers? I know, I'll ask a lawyer. The ministerial code is

:10:30.:10:36.

public. That gives guidance as to when opinions should normally be

:10:36.:10:43.

sought from the law officers. But it is not especially detailed.

:10:43.:10:47.

There may be its internal practices about when legal advice should be

:10:47.:10:50.

sought. You would expect an important public statement which

:10:50.:10:54.

took a definite legal position on an important issue to have been

:10:54.:11:00.

based on legal advice. In the past few years, the government has

:11:00.:11:04.

released several documents saying that an independent Scotland would

:11:04.:11:08.

stay in the European Union. So why did Nicola Sturgeon say yesterday

:11:08.:11:11.

that the Government was still to seek legal advice on the issue?

:11:11.:11:15.

Does the signing of the Edinburgh agreement make this possible now?

:11:15.:11:22.

The statement by the deputy First Minister said that now that the

:11:23.:11:26.

agreement had been reached between the Scottish and UK governments on

:11:26.:11:31.

the referendum process, the way was now clear to seek formal legal

:11:31.:11:37.

advice from the law officers. I am not sure that is entirely

:11:37.:11:43.

convincing. If the Government had already made up its mind to prepare

:11:43.:11:48.

the path towards independence, as it obviously had done, then it was

:11:48.:11:53.

open to it to seek legal advice on the question of membership of the

:11:53.:11:56.

European Community at an earlier stage. I don't think the signing of

:11:56.:12:02.

the agreement is an important change in relation to the question

:12:02.:12:07.

of when you would seek legal advice. The Government say they never

:12:07.:12:11.

sought specific legal advice on the EU question before now, and that

:12:11.:12:15.

Alex Salmond did not say they had. And nobody outside the SNP could

:12:15.:12:20.

believed he was saying anything but the fact that he had legal advice.

:12:20.:12:24.

He kept referring to the legal advice. He had ample opportunity to

:12:24.:12:31.

say he had not asked anyone about this, but he did not. Confusion or

:12:31.:12:35.

cover up? Maybe the question should be, when his legal advice not legal

:12:35.:12:44.

I'm joined now from Edinburgh by Liberal Democrat leader Willie

:12:44.:12:49.

Rennie, and by the SNP's Stewart Maxwell. Do you accept the

:12:49.:12:52.

explanations that the Government have offered? I have tried to

:12:52.:12:56.

understand it. I have tried to put myself in the position of Alex

:12:56.:12:59.

Salmond and understand his and Nicola Sturgeon's explanation. For

:12:59.:13:04.

the life of me, I just can't. He says on one hand that he did and

:13:04.:13:08.

then he didn't receive advice, general advice - I don't understand

:13:08.:13:14.

what the point is they are trying to make. What is fundamental is

:13:14.:13:23.

that the whole basis of their case for continuing has now collapsed.

:13:23.:13:28.

Just on this specific issue because you I think accused them of

:13:28.:13:32.

misleading Parliament. I did. you, in the light of their

:13:32.:13:38.

explanations, in a mood to let that rest? I think the avenues open to

:13:38.:13:43.

us are quite limited now. I think the public will clearly see who was

:13:43.:13:48.

being clear about this issue. And the SNP were certainly not clear

:13:48.:13:54.

about this. Alex Salmond's words were very clear. He said, "We have

:13:54.:13:57.

sought advice, yes." He made it clear at the time and he

:13:57.:14:01.

contradicted it. It is a muddle. I think we probably need to leave it

:14:01.:14:06.

to the public to decide who was being straight about this. Stewart

:14:06.:14:10.

Maxwell, do you think Alex Salmond should refer himself under the

:14:10.:14:15.

Ministerial Code, as he says he is thinking of doing? It is entirely a

:14:15.:14:19.

matter for the First Minister. It is not for me to say whether he

:14:19.:14:24.

should or shouldn't. I understand he has received a letter from a

:14:24.:14:27.

Labour Member of the European Parliament. He will consider the

:14:27.:14:30.

contents of that letter and then respond. That is a matter for the

:14:30.:14:36.

First Minister. Right. You are completely unconcerned about how

:14:36.:14:43.

this looks from an SNP point of view? I'm concerned about the fact

:14:43.:14:53.
:14:53.:14:53.

the Labour Party are throwing around words "liar" and "conman".

:14:53.:15:02.

Hang on, Willie Rennie made his point in a reasonable way, he said

:15:02.:15:07.

you had been misleading the public and that the public would make up

:15:07.:15:10.

their minds? Gordon, I said it was the Labour Party had been using

:15:10.:15:15.

this kind of language. I accept that Willie Rennie has not done

:15:15.:15:22.

that. He has made accusations. It is quite clear the First Minister

:15:22.:15:27.

has at no point said there is legal advice on this matter. He has

:15:27.:15:30.

always stuck to the point of principle on the Ministerial Code

:15:30.:15:35.

which says they can neither confirm nor deny legal advice on this

:15:35.:15:38.

matter. That is the normal process for every single Government, both

:15:39.:15:44.

in Edinburgh and in London, and always has been. Which would be

:15:44.:15:47.

tremendously convincing hadn't Alex Salmond appeared to say the

:15:48.:15:52.

opposite in the interview he did with Andrew Neil? I have the

:15:52.:15:56.

transcript in front of me here. Let's not get into that again!

:15:56.:16:02.

think it is important because what Labour have done is they have made

:16:02.:16:08.

up a quote. They have accused the First Minister of lying which is

:16:08.:16:15.

disgraceful. The transcript... have missed out... They have...

:16:15.:16:21.

sounds like 27 shades of desperation? That is ridiculous.

:16:21.:16:24.

The 27 words are crucial to the context of the answers that the

:16:25.:16:30.

First Minister gave. He was talking about the - he referred to the

:16:30.:16:34.

published documents which the Government have put out. Those

:16:34.:16:42.

documents are in the normal process of events, they go through...

:16:42.:16:47.

We - you are in favour of independence, are you? Of course I

:16:47.:16:52.

am. Can we check, you are in favour of independence for Scotland. When

:16:52.:16:59.

you say you are in favour of independence, we didn't think you

:16:59.:17:09.
:17:09.:17:10.

were in favour of independence for Finland, Latvia. What you mean is

:17:10.:17:14.

independence for Scotland? Well, of course, I mean independence for

:17:14.:17:19.

Scotland. I'm checking. That is a ridiculous statement. The First

:17:19.:17:25.

Minister didn't say yes to the question. He did actually. That's

:17:26.:17:31.

all he said, was it? What he said was - if you want me to read the

:17:31.:17:35.

transcript? Yes, in terms of the debate and he was interrupted. He

:17:35.:17:39.

went on to explain in terms of the documents published by the Scottish

:17:39.:17:44.

Government. I was interrupted again. The fact is he did not say yes, he

:17:44.:17:50.

explained the circumstances of that advice. The fact is - I can

:17:50.:17:54.

understand why opposition politicians want to make hay over

:17:54.:18:03.

this issue. What about that point - before we need a PhD to carry on

:18:04.:18:08.

this conversation, the point is, it doesn't really matter very much,

:18:08.:18:16.

does it? Sorry. It does because it is a matter of substance. This is

:18:16.:18:19.

about whether Scotland would be a new or continuing member of the EU.

:18:19.:18:24.

The SNP have just looked at whether Scotland would adopt the pound. I

:18:24.:18:27.

think they now need to set out the consequences of joining the euro.

:18:27.:18:32.

The people when they are going to the referendum, they need to

:18:32.:18:42.

understand... Hang on. That's not fair because you can accuse the SNP

:18:42.:18:46.

of talking humbug over this interview, but the SNP have been

:18:46.:18:49.

clear, they will make this whole business - they are not saying they

:18:49.:18:56.

are not going to do that. It is not fair to say that?, They have so far

:18:56.:19:01.

set out in great deal how you would keep the pound. They have not set

:19:01.:19:09.

out in any detail at all - another real possibility that we would join

:19:09.:19:13.

the euro. Of course we wouldn't. That is nonsense. No. Stewart, what

:19:13.:19:23.

happens if you are wrong? What happens if you are... We... We...

:19:23.:19:28.

Let me give you one solid example. Can you hold on a second? If we end

:19:29.:19:32.

up as an independent nation and you are wrong, and we do not get to

:19:32.:19:36.

keep the pound because we are regarded as a new member of the

:19:36.:19:40.

European Union, we will have to adopt the euro. And the strictures

:19:40.:19:43.

for joining the euro are quite severe. You would have to reduce

:19:43.:19:51.

the deficit as a percentage of the GDP from 7.4% to 3%. That is a �5

:19:51.:19:58.

billion cut. That is a fantasy. Let's look at the... I'm sorry

:19:58.:20:04.

interrupt. For the sake of taking this somewhere different, the

:20:04.:20:12.

Herald are reporting that the Spanish Foreign Minister, they

:20:12.:20:17.

quote him about what Scotland's position would be and he says, "In

:20:17.:20:20.

the hypothetical case of independence for Scotland, Scotland

:20:20.:20:30.
:20:30.:20:34.

would have to join the queue and ask to be admitted." Is that right?

:20:34.:20:40.

No, it's not right. Scotland... is the Spanish Foreign Minister.

:20:40.:20:44.

He's the Spanish Foreign Minister. I don't see what the relevance of

:20:44.:20:49.

that is. It is not relevant? Right, OK. There is no circumstances and

:20:49.:20:55.

no rules within the EU to expel a member state from the European

:20:55.:21:02.

Union. Sweden is in the European Union but is not adopting the euro.

:21:02.:21:06.

That is evidence that we would not be adopting the euro. We would be

:21:06.:21:10.

taking the pound. That is quite clear. We will have to leech it

:21:10.:21:15.

there. Sorry, willy -- leave it there. Sorry, Willie Rennie, we

:21:15.:21:20.

will come back to it. The NHS crisis as boards forced to take

:21:20.:21:25.

loans. Dozens of A-roads to have speed limits cut is the lead in The

:21:25.:21:29.

Scotsman. One last thing before we go. The

:21:29.:21:32.

world of folk music is poorer tonight for the death of the singer,

:21:32.:21:34.

songwriter and proud Dundonian, Michael Marra. We'll leave you with

:21:35.:21:38.

a snippet of him playing his song Farlow at the Blas Festival in 2009.

:21:38.:21:44.

Good night. # There's love in this world for

:21:44.:21:50.

everyone # Every rascal and son of a gun

:21:50.:21:56.

# It's for the many and not the few # Be sure it's out there looking

:21:56.:22:03.

for you # Every town in every state

:22:03.:22:10.

# Every house and every gate # With every precious smile you

:22:10.:22:20.
:22:20.:22:33.

make Hello. By the end of this week, it

:22:33.:22:36.

will feel like we have slipped forward into late December.

:22:36.:22:42.

Thursday is more of a transition day.

:22:42.:22:45.

Further north, some bright spells developing through the afternoon. A

:22:45.:22:49.

little bit of patchy rain here and there. It won't amount to very much.

:22:49.:22:54.

Still on the mild side across the south. 13, 14, possibly 15 or 16

:22:54.:22:58.

degrees. Patchy rain across South West England, across South Wales

:22:58.:23:04.

through the afternoon as well. As you head further north, across

:23:04.:23:07.

North Wales, a better chance of seeing some sunny spells coming

:23:07.:23:11.

through during the afternoon. A fairly bright day all in all across

:23:11.:23:17.

Northern Ireland. Much of Scotland, some sunny spells

:23:17.:23:23.

through the course of the day. Look at that temperature in Lerwick, 2

:23:23.:23:33.
:23:33.:23:35.

degrees. From Thursday into Friday, everywhere is turning colder.

:23:35.:23:40.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS