04/12/2012 Newsnight Scotland

on the US statute books. A rallying point for those who wish to change

Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, the lifespan of Scotland's biggest

nuclear power station has just been extended. Tomorrow we expect the

Chancellor to announce the start of a new rush for gas. What is the

policy to keep the lights on? It may have escaped your notice around

the Leveson report, but the energy bill was reported last week. The

transformation of the electricity market was what it was announced as,

and tomorrow if the papers are to be believed, George Osborne will

announce plans for up to 30 new gas fired power stations and the

lifespan of the Hunterston nuclear power station has been extended

Energy - it lights up our world, powers our offices, heat our homes.

But the way we get our energy is changing. The purpose in Scotland

is now firmly on renewables but nuclear generate at least a third

of our electricity. Today it was announced the Hunterston B nuclear

power station on the Ayrshire coast will continue to operate until at

least 2023. Seven years longer than planned and securing the jobs of

around 700 people. Owners EDF Energy have not ruled out a further

extension. That means security for jobs for us for the 700 people

employed here at Hunterston. It is great news for Hunterston and for

the whole of Scotland. environmental campaigners say

nuclear-power is not the way forward. A nuclear station is

either on or off. Other stations, you can turn up and down to meet

the changing demand. One we have lots of renewables and then next,

we do not need anything to back them up but while we do, Nuclear is

not the best thing at all to do that. The Scottish Government is

against New nuclear power stations but it accepts they are needed as a

way of maintaining supply in the short term. The challenge is to

reduce harmful carbon emissions by maintaining what is known as base

load. Renewable energy like wind power still does not produce enough

electricity to see us through the energy gap. Come 2020, large power

stations firing colt will have to close and Hunterston will be

nearing the end of its life so is keeping it open the sensible

option? Absolutely, it is already there. These are low carbon which

are looking at base load. I am not against any kind of power

generation. We will need to get used to the fact that there are

some big things that we do like coal or wind, we will have to get

used to that we will need a very big next of sources of energy to

match the demands we have. Unless we get the right energy mix, the

lights could literally go at. Decorations like he -- here in

George Square in Glasgow might be turned off, and we might be back to

the bad old days of the 1970s. Families used to gather round in

the evening and read by candlelight. The target for Scotland is to

generate the equivalent of 100% of our electricity demand from

renewable sources by 2020. But despite the large installation

capacity of wind turbines, the only produce electricity when the wind

blows which is why output is intermittent. If you look at

countries like Denmark who have gone all out for wind, Denmark now

has a very expensive foreign aid programme for Germany because when

the wind does not blow in Denmark, it blows in the middle of the night

and nobody wants the power then. Germany has got a much bigger

demand for energy than Denmark and they will then sell the power. But

when you sell power in the middle of the night you sell it at knock-

down prices because nobody wants it so what happens in Denmark is the

balance of payments is a bit more because when they are desperate for

energy, they buy back ironically nuclear generated power from

Germany at top price. That is the danger of going down the route that

Scotland is pursuing at the moment. We might end up as a foreign aid

programme for England. A tomorrow the Government at Westminster is

expected to announce a new rush for gas. Gas fired power stations are

quick to put up and would offer the hope of cheap energy in the long

term. Could we be in an uncomfortable position if we go for

this, where would we go for gas? are mainly reliant on Norway at the

moment and Iceland. They stand between us and Russia. Not forever,

they want. And do we want to get reliant on some of these regimes?

Go and ask anyone in Ukraine what it feels like to be to be reliant

on your power from Russia. So it could be some time before energy

gets off the merry-go-round. I am joined by Stuart Haszeldine,

the Scottish Power Professor of Carbon Capture and Storage. And

also by Chris Goodall and Andrew Raingold of the Aldersgate Group,

an alliance of energy companies and NGOs with an interest in

sustainable development. Chris Goodall, most people just feel

utterly confused by this. On the one hand, we have got the new

energy bill which lots of people including the people who are

involved seem to think is a good thing and then a report that George

Osborne is about to announce plans for some sort of rush for gas, is

this very confusing? A bit the coalition found itself in a

difficult position with the Lib Dems in Westminster saying they

wanted more renewables and the Conservatives said that is making

the price of electricity to expensive, we want gas. We have got

now an extremely uncomfortable, compromise between those people and

my worry is that because each of these two technologies takes an

enormous amounts of capital, that capital is risky, the investors

simply will not risk that money until they know exactly what the

Government's stance and at the moment, it is completely unclear

where the British Government in Westminster stands. That seems to

be the problem, Andrew Raingold. It the decision on whether or not to

have binding targets on removing the carbon from power stations has

been put off until 2016. Is there a danger that those who might invest

in power generation, renewable or indeed any other form, will think

we cannot be certain what we are getting into? That is absolutely

right because businesses have been very vocal and have been calling

for 2030 targets which would mean the whole of the UK energy system

would be zero carbon. That certainty is vital. These

investments are long-term and also they will provide the stability for

growth, jobs and competitive advantage in the UK's picture.

Without that certainty, investors are retreating from the UK and

going to other markets are. But you think there is a serious danger

that companies that were considering investing world just

decide to pull back? Bat is a very real danger -- that is a very real

danger. Companies such as Mitsubishi and Siemens are now

investing a huge amount in the UK economy but they say that the

political risk is too high and they are worried about that investment

and those companies collectively employ thousands of people in the

Chris Goodall, there are subsidies for renewal. Something like �7

billion by 2020 under the new regime. For an area like Scotland,

that has to be good news. No matter the uncertainties, that money for

renewables is going to be there. probably will enable the UK to

reach 30% renewables by 2020. That time, Scotland's electricity will

largely come up from a low carbon sources. The question is, what will

the UK do beyond that? It is now clear the Government will licence

for a new number of gas plants, starting tomorrow. The incentives

for renewable developers to put in billions of pounds into the UK

economy may disappear as they feel the Government will make a guess

the favourite fuel. A I wonder Chris, is it as straightforward as

that? You know -- sorry, Stuart, we now know the subsidy for renewals

is there. If you are building a gas power station, they might then said

a decarbonising Asian power target which then puts me at a

disadvantage? -- decarbonising are natural power target. The Treasury

has been clear. It wants to enable gas companies to build plants. We

are looking at building one-third, maybe more, of UK electricity

generators. What Andrew was saying, we discourage companies renewing --

investing in renewables, we might discourage companies investing in

gas? Gas might turn out to be the fuel that sets the price a village

a city. It is cold generation that has so far. -- that sets the price

of electricity. Gas is that two of choice the Treasury has pitched for.

We have talked about the levy cap of �7 billion. When you do the

maths, for funding, these guys are right this is stretched to build a

new wind power onshore and offshore, to build new nuclear and carbon

Storage. For some people are going to be disappointed. Chris, the

Scottish government's policy is against new nuclear power stations.

I wonder if the British Government is getting in by the back door. If

you take this �7 billion, which includes nuclear, because it is

seen as renewable, there is not going to be any nuclear built by

2020, they will not get any subsidy, will they? A I do not think it

should in clued nuclear. Is that not their proposal? There will be

bills passed next year and that will be the way in which nuclear is

subsidised in England and Wales. But the �7 billion is already there.

We as consumers are going to pay for that. If nuclear thing comes

along on top of that, and we have to pay for that again, is that

politically feasible? Electricity prices are going to rise. It is

possible we will see prices 50% higher than at the moment by 2020.

I think that is a reasonable assumption. It is really

unfortunate. The Government's policies include explicit targets

on energy efficiency, electrical energy efficiency. That is an

important new move that was introduced last week. Do you think,

Andrew, what is your judgment on the status of this supposedly plan

to have nuclear plants in England? It does not seem to be going

anywhere fast. We need are a diverse energy mix. The Government

have decided nuclear should play a part in a. We need more clarity

overall in terms of the Energy Bill. -- played a part in that. The D

Carr Organisation target is vital. That would not only encourage

interest in renewables, it would drive growth. -- the decolonisation

target. His it is not good news for -- it is not good news for

everybody. Not everyone will benefit from 7 billion. That does

include new nuclear and Wim power and carbon capture and storage.

wind power. What the governments have failed to do is invest. We are

seeing a developing train crash of UK policy so running for gas is the

only thing we can do up and building new nuclear is technically

possible but if we look at the track record of what is happening

in Finland and France, those new reactors which we are trying to buy

are coming in at three times the price and double the time. It is

very unlikely we will have any significant electricity from that

point. The electricity will be at the same price as offshore wind or

more expensive. If should we take a more relaxed view about this?

was not that long ago we were told about the energy gap, the lights

would go off in 2015 and then you see, by the writing the rules on

how to run Hinckley Point and Hunterston, been the cause of the

day, Britain's imminent problems seemed to disappear. -- in the

course of a day. We can extend the life of all existing nuclear power

stations but this is not a joke. This is a desperate crisis. We are

completely missing the opportunity to decarbonising the electricity

supply to get a modern electricity infrastructure. No-one knows what

to do and everyone is worried about the cost of fuel on human comfort.

The fact is, at some stage, the UK and Scotland has got to make

decisions to move out of fossil fuels and I think it is an awful

pity we are moving backwards at the moment. The Andrew, what do you

make of this alleged run for gas? It could peak an expensive option.

We do not know what will happen to gas prices. It has been said that

could be more expensive than a low carbon energy option. There was an

interesting report that compared gas with a run for offshore wind in

the 2020 and the report found the offshore wind scenario have

provided �20 billion extra for the UK economy and 70,000 extra jobs.

It is not as simple as two options. There is a diverse mix.

Scottish government has staked everything on renewable energy. It

will be industrial Scotland, allegedly. What we are saying is

not necessarily bad for that strategy. No. It may be the

Scottish government, because it has said things with greater firmness

than Westminster, will be able to get the increase in renewables that

it projects. I think it is quite possible. Scotland has always said

resources of Marine Energy are not matched anywhere in the world. I

hope the Scottish government continues to do the research and

development necessary to get those energy sources up and running. Is

that your take as well, Andrew? Absolutely. There is a golden

opportunity for growth and jobs in the industries of the future. There

is a huge global market here, over 3.3 trillion pounds, investing in

low carbon technologies. Scotland can export to global markets.

you to you all. The from pages tomorrow. The Herald. It is about

At the Scottish Daily Mail. That is the royal story. There will be many