28/01/2013 Newsnight Scotland

Who are the New Scots, and what role do they have to play in the

independence debate? Tonight we'll discuss with politicians, experts

Good evening and welcome to the first in a series of special

Newsnight Scotland debates. Tonight, we'll be hearing from members of

Scotland's ethnic minority communities. They'll be quizzing

two leading politicians on subjects ranging from the independence

referendum, to Scottish identity, to our future in the European Union.

Those politicians are the SNP's Humza Yousaf, who's also the

Scottish Government's Minister for External Affairs and International

Development. And he's joined by Ruth Davidson, leader of the

Scottish Conservatives. I'm also joined by a panel with wide

experience. They are: Gina Netto, an expert in identity and ethnicity

at Heriot Watt University. Aamer Anwar, the well-known lawyer. Jakub

Oszczepalinski, a journalist with a Polish-language online magazine.

And Colin Lee. And he's the Scottish director for the Council

for Ethnic Minority Voluntary Our questions come from our

audience. Now, our first question is from Dr Nasar Meer.

Many Scots like to think we are less racist and more tolerant of

ethnic communities than elsewhere in the UK. Is that a complacent

attitude, as Scotland's tolerance has yet to be stress-tested?

I'd be interested in here the thoughts of some of our audience

that have moved to Scotland from other countries. I will come to you

in a moment but first Aamer Anwar. In 1986, I used to here nasty terms.

I think Scotland is an inclusive community but the reality is that

when it has been tested, there has always been a backlash. We have

seen racist murders, we have seen our own Stephen Lawrence. But the

response of the wider community has been positive. The concern I have

is when you look across society, the words institutional racism are

in the distance. You do not see black judges, police officers,

senior ranking. It doesn't exist. Even after the airport attack in

does go, everybody was in unity saying how wonderful it was, but a

few months later we had the case, a terrorist case in court, and

subsequently this terraced was released, and there was a backlash.

There was Islam a phobia, and that is still there as part of the UK.

But I blame the UK politicians for that. Well, I think in many ways

leaving -- living in Scotland is more pleasant and conducive than

living in some parts of England. Have you done both or from your

research? From my research. I would have to say there is a danger of

complacency. Although it might be very pleasant in some very middle-

class neighbourhoods, the reality in some estates is that it is harsh.

There is resentment towards new arrivals. And this is in areas

particularly where there is areas of deprivation. But not confined to

these areas. And also we know, we have statistics, the number of

racial harassment, the number of incidents is increasing. Last year

it was 10%, at 10% increase in racial harassment. Over 5,000 cases

of reported harassment alone. And we all know that there is

significant under-reporting as well as reporting. Let's bring in our

audience. Who he has moved to Scotland from another country? Who

has had that experience? The lady in the front row. Good explorers or

not so good? Very good experience. Scotland is very welcoming. I have

enjoyed the privilege of meeting very interesting people who have

given me lots of opportunities to collaborate with them. Over the

last two years, however, I have felt politically excluded from the

current argument in the independence debate. That is why I

am here tonight to see if we can go forward without. Thank you for

being here. And the gentleman in the middle. I came to Scotland

about 30 years ago and I have never looked back. I have become an

integral part of the society and I have taken the traits of the

Scottish people myself without realising it. The lady who said it

is a very welcoming country, I agree with her. It is an integral

part of our lives. Have you ever had a bad experience? I have. When

I first moved to my home town, I had to get into fights to become

initiated into society, but that is part and parcel of the car -- part

and parcel of the culture. I have never seen a single incident of

racial harassment. I work in the streets and I feel as safe as the

next person. Ruth Davidson, could we become more complacent on this

if we see ourselves as tolerant? Were do have to work hard at all

levels to make sure we get past that. We would expect the blame to

be put on the UK Government from yes campaign. There was a rise in

racial crimes last year. It may be a case of more reporting, it could

be a case of more crimes, so we shouldn't be too upset. Or it is

fantastic about Scotland is the amount of work that goes on to try

to bring people together. For example, our faith communities to a

lot of work across Scotland. We were both at the same fund raiser

last night. And you see through what goes on at the synagogues, the

work that goes on in the mosques and churches, you see an awful lot

of good work that happens across Scotland. And government should be

given a pat on the back were a pat on the back is due. We talk about

the attack on Glasgow airport. One of the finest things Alex Salmond

did was make sure he got himself down to the mosque to say that

Scotland stands with its communities. We are all Scottish

and we all have a place. question mentioned stress testing.

You felt perhaps Scotland's Torrance hadn't been stressed

tested. What did you mean by that? The rhetoric is great. I think that

Scotland's political leaders have been a model of inclusion and that

is something that has to be recognised and celebrated but the

policies haven't been there. When minorities have asked for things,

and they haven't asked for Mark, whereas in England they have got

faith schools and other things, in Scotland, that kind of thing has

not been received or conferred. agree with the number of comments

made here on the panel. You can never be complacent and we have had

some difficult times. You can argue about the racial difficulties,

every member of the ethnic minority has faced some kind of racial

incident. In Scotland generally, because it is a numbers game, it

may be, but it is welcoming and open. We do not have this idea... I

wouldn't blame Westminster politicians as such, but my friends

South of the border say that some parts of England, it can be a lot

more difficult because the rhetoric is choose one identity over the

other whereas in Scotland we say we support at the crab football team

etc etc and that is enough to make you Scottish. Our from South of the

border, they ask, are you Bangladeshi or British? They have

to choose. That is not helped by the Westminster debate. Politicians

have to take responsibility. It isn't easy hit if you want to

attack multiculturalism. Actually, we have to be tempered. In Scotland,

we have been good at that. anybody can be Scottish? If you

feel Scottish, you are Scottish. was just going to say that with

that the debate increasing about the future of Scotland in a

referendum for independence, I think that ethnic minorities should

take the opportunity of becoming more involved with politics. It is

a wonderful opportunity for them. I think... I am the daughter of a

Polish immigrant during the last war and certainly they were there

are welcomed at that time and I am glad to say that today most people

that I have spoken to have come into Scotland have been very well

welcomed. I want to bring in another slightly different

perspective in all of this. You have a follow-up question.

There are many different identities in Scotland. Does the panel think

that the each side of the referendum campaign properly

recognises those identities? And are they successfully engaging with

ethnic minority communities? well, let's develop that with Colin

Lee. Interesting enough, we have done a piece of research on

identity and how Scottish people actually relate to engage with the

political process and to be honest a lot of people within the ethnic

communities are very disengaged with politics and democracy

generally because what they see is very much not part of being the

democratic process in society in terms of how they relate to

politics, in terms of role-models. There is no politicians... Not

representative of diverse communities anyway. This is about

politics and democracy generally which I think has to be a bit more

engaging. And in terms of how they engage with young people. Do people

reach out to those from Poland, from Eastern Europe as well as the

black and minority ethnic minorities we touched on? Sort of,

yes. Especially before the elections or before the referendum.

We do get calls from politicians about running the story on the

referendum. On a daily basis, we get Harbin any contact with

politicians. But you have contact in this fairly early stage from

both camps? Yes. We had both parties calling us up in the last

couple of months. But normally it stops. As a website, we remain

neutral. We are happy to put both forward. The lady in the front row.

Yes Scotland is engaging with the ethnic minorities. Are you

involved? I am. For us and one of the concerns for many of the

minority communities is legislation coming out of Westminster

particularly in relation to emigration. In 2012, there were

nine Changes in Immigration Rules were applicants have found

themselves submitting applications in terms of one category to find

A of I know they are reaching a the community's right across Scotland,

not just at BME communities but other white British communities

that have in Scotland, we should not forget them. Other minority

communities as well. I know it that in terms of the debate going

forward, it is going to be a long debate, it is going to last well

over a year and a half. Not this programme! No! We will try to

engage with as many people as we can. What would your key message on

the Yes side the and then on the other side? There is always more

you can do, in terms of reaching out to all segments in society. The

key message is, we're open to engage. We want to engage, and hear

views. We will not shy away. It will be very tempting to assume

that ethnic minority communities have a vastly different opinion.

There are specific issues in terms of minorities. But it is important

to realise that ethnic minorities have made a huge contributor seat -

- contribution to Scotland through businesses and education, in fact,

the punch above their weight. want to ask Ruth the same point,

what we did the key message be? What we want is not vastly

different -- what BME once is not vastly different. I think being

part of the UK, or sitting at the top table in terms of NATO, it is

about being a world citizen. Being part of a larger UK and all that

entails is of benefit of people of Scotland no matter where they were

born. Let's move on to another question, now. Under independent

Scotland, should we have a more open or more restrictive

immigration policy? I will leave the politicians, I am interested to

hear what the audience think. Let's put that festival to you, Gina

Netto. My view on that is not so much of the extent of immigration,

but how ethnic-minority is within the country are treated. That has

been my most -- main era of interest. There have been

significant problems that remain to be addressed about how people who

are in ethnic minorities are born and raised in this country and live

in Scottish society, but they continue to struggle. As well as

enjoying the many pleasures of being in Scotland. That has been my

main focus of interest. My concern is in terms of looking, and in that

sense, whether or not Scotland becomes independent or not, I think

there are significant issues that the current Scottish government can

address, because it has significant powers within... Sorry, that how

devolved to Scotland. specifically on immigration.

but there are a whole range, I suppose, my argument would be that,

let's look at what Scotland is doing with its ethnic minority

population now. Let's look at the strides they are making in terms of

progress with dealing with ethnic minorities, who were in the country.

A lot of people have moved to Scotland from Eastern -- Eastern

Europe in recent years, and to date the UK government is looking at

ways in which it can continue on restrictions from people coming

from Romania and Bulgaria, for instance. Do you see that as a

sensible measure? It all depends. We had some estimates about how

many people came to the UK from Poland, they will wear off. There

is a lot of scaremongering going on in Westminster are saying there

will be half a million new immigrants coming into the UK, I

read an art -- an article in the Guardian that highlighting their

facts that many Romanians will go to Italy and Germany where they

already have relatives. It is not as big an issue as with the Polish

community. Let me bring in the Lady in the front row. I a good first of

all -- I would first of all likely to separate the EU population to

and non e u populations, they are very different. Am an immigrant

from India on the point The point System. Will this goatish

independent government honour -- will be independent Scottish

government bona the UK -- on a the Picking up on those points. I will

pick up on some of the points. The division question, it is about an

independent Scotland, it will be more open and conclusive. --

inclusive. The point of having control in an independent Scotland

is we will be able to have make that system in the interests of

Scotland. Does that mean it would be more open or more restrictive?

It would be to do with the needs of Scotland. The need for Scotland is

we need more skilled migrants, there are lot of institutions that

sake we need more skilled migration. We have a demographic gap.

Immigration at the moment has completely become a dirty word in

the UK. Immigration is a two-way thing. We have migrants coming in

but we have Scottish pensioners in Spain. Immigration and migration go

hand in hand. Immigration is not decided in the best interest of the

UK and Scotland. UK governments have this -- have made the

immigration argument about what the right wing press or UKIP are saying.

I think it is a little bit this ingenious, particularly if you

think about the last government, -- disingenuous, I do not think there

is migrant bashing from the right- wing press. A it is an ideological

drive. We have to acknowledge how much Scotland has benefited from

the amount of immigration we have here. In terms of all the immigrant

groups we haven't gone and, the way they are classified, Everest -- we

have in Scotland. They are likely to have a degree more. There are a

higher proportion of people in management jobs. And particularly

if you look at Colin's point, I remember the scare stories when

there was EU enlargement, this number of Polish people that people

said were going to come to Scotland. It has been nothing but positive. I

think the majority of Scots would say that the Polish contributed,

they are the largest and minority. It is fantastic. When it comes to

Romanians and Bulgarians, do you, like Number Ten, want to look at

ways of continuing with its restrictions or would you say from

Scotland's point of view, we could do with some more? The restrictions

were brought in in 2005 under the last Labour government survey --

and they expire at the end of this year. There is a move, under the

last government there were more than 2 million people neck migrants

to the UK. That is a third of the UK -- population of Scotland. To be

honest, I think there is less of an issue in Scotland and is in the

rest of the UK, because the numbers and percentage of people who come

and settle in Scotland is much smaller. So why not control powers

so we have more flexibility in the system? Because I do not

particularly want border post at the border. It is the worst type of

scaremongering. That was tried by Lord John Reid in early 2000.

want to bring in someone else. it Ruth talks about, we have to

welcome the contribution of ethnic minorities, it reminds me of when

people say, and some of my best friends are black. A set of UK

governments have pandered to racism and the far right by continually

raising the race card and the immigrant card. First the war it

was the Jews, then the Irish, then the Asians, then Africans, then

asylum-seekers, now eastern Europeans. So they keep reiterating

that immigration is a problem -- is a problem. In Scotland, more people

are leaving the country than 10 to becoming a. People who come into

this country for the last 100 years have made massive contributions, so

why not celebrate that? That is exactly what I just said. I wants

to bring in people in our audience. In which case, after listening to

what the panel has said, in which case I think after we have made a

choice in the Independent referendum, we will be in a

position when all the parties seem to agree that Scotland should be

treated differently in a gust of population, whether we accept

immigrants in this country. We are looking at a situation in this

country where, independence referendum on not, we have to think

as a nation, do we want to have? Are we able to contain many more

migrants, and can make continue -- can they continue to contribute?

Westminster has a population numbers problem, we do not have the

same problem up here, maybe we could afford to have a few more

bodies. Is it, how do we as migrants contribute to this

country? Economic it, poultry and in every way? -- economic League,

culturally and in every way? I want to touch briefly on asylum. Should

the Westminster government of that amnesty to asylum-seekers leading

this country? -- offer amnesty? Will the SNP government itself

commit itself to a programme, if Scotland became independent

tomorrow? That is one for the politicians. The idea of an amnesty

for those claiming asylum in the country. For me, the issue is not

about the amnesty. It is about... You are not in favour of an

amnesty? We have never talked about a blanket amnesty. It gets my goat

the fact that the UK BA, the Borders Agency, keeps finding this

backlog of tens of thousands. you not find a way of clearing

that? What we have to do in terms of asylum and, I am pleased at the

BBC has recognised immigration as different to asylum because people

sometimes equate the two. When it comes to asylum, we have to realise

we have an inhumane system in the United Kingdom governments. We

treat our animals better than we treat some asylum-seekers. We are

talking about destitution in some places, you see it here in Glasgow.

We also see the dawn raids happening, children being detained

and taken south of the border. said no to an amnesty? I and

shorter time. We can shake the system. You would not tell us what

the system would be. It is all in the White Paper! I do not believe

in a blanket amnesty, I would to correct Humza Yousaf, there are

only about 2500, not tens of thousands. We inherited a a bad

system. I said that the UK borage People are trying to make progress.

When you look at achievements that a happening, some centres are shut

so there are are no children being detained. So you just transfer them

to England, take children in Scotland, that is a disgrace. You

do not have it in Scotland, but we are better together because we can

shut them up down south. It is frankly disgraceful. Neither of us

believe in a blanket amnesty. you believe in charge attention?

believe both that there is a good system. I do the questions, and it

was not about Chau detention. I We have heard much in recent weeks

about the UK's and Scotland's future relationship with the

European Union. What is your vision of the European Union? Do you have

a vision of how we should relate with the European Union? To let me

be more specific. What will be independent Scotland's situation in

the European Union are? And to be more specific, East European

communities are worried whether their status changes in case

Scotland becomes independent. Humza Yousaf. To say to the

gentleman in the front, your biggest worry, when you think of

the Polish community, anywhere between 70 have one-hundredth 1,000

people work in Scotland. Scotland will continue its membership of the

European Union. Undoubtedly? Absolutely. This is ridiculous.

Irish foreign minister also you would have to reapply. We would not

be outside the European Union. If you point to the directive where we

would be outside the European Union. I can point to the exact one. I can

go for the exact quote. You would have to reapply to join. We would

continue membership! You would have to reapply. Can I just ask you, do

you accept that with independence, the Scottish Government would have

to submit a fresh application as a new state? It is about continued

membership. Sir there would be no application? If you are not going

to be out of the European Union for a single day, why would you have to

reapply? Three foreign ministers and the head of the European

Commission's say... They are not saying he would not be welcome but

you would have to reapply. We are in a clear position. We negotiated

terms. We you had a meeting with the European Union. Let me address

the gentleman's point. When it comes to Eastern Europeans or the

Polish community, for example, Scotland is not going to be outside

of the European Union. Where was your legal advice for that? You

don't have any. Your uncertainty does not exist with an independent

Scotland but with the UK Government. It wants to repeat outside the

European Union. We had a situation that if you want to Scotland in the

European Union, you are better voting Yes in the referendum.

me take up the point. First of all, we have a Scottish Government which

found that it would not be in the European Union and it would have to

reapply. You have got three President's all saying you would

have to do that. It is just scaremongering. Are they

scaremongering? I don't think people would believe that. About

the UK Government position, David Cameron made it clear in his speech

and when he was questioned at it at PMQs that he was campaigning to

stay in a reformed European Union. He wants a better deal for the

people, for Scotland, too. On this point what would happen if Scotland

became independent, we have had various contributions, but what the

European Commission has said is it would be prepared to set out in

detail what would happen if the UK Government would ask the question.

Do you support the Scottish Government and asking the UK to

seek that advice so that we can know the position and the Christian

and know what its status would be? I was under the impression because

Nicola Sturgeon stood up and said she was not just seeking a meeting

with just a man while Barroso but she was getting one. She was going

to be able to do it anyway. Not only that but his deputy has to

turn back and say we are not even meeting with the Scottish

Government. They have peddled untruths, Ms information right from

the start. The question is whether you could get the UK Government to

do us all a favour and get the clarity we need for the purposes of

this debate. We all want to know the answer! We have got the clarity.

The head of the European Commission is saying they would have to

reapply. How much clearer do you need it? Would you set out that

prices in detail? He has said... I will quote you. If one part of the

country wants to become independent, of course as an independent state

it has to apply to the European membership according to the rules.

OK, I want to bring in members of the audience on this, people who

haven't spoken so far. I'm not worrying about Scotland whether it

will stay in the European Union because after a few days of Mr

Cameron's speech, I am wondering whether England will stay. Scotland

will stay because the politicians want to stay in the EU. But Mr

Cameron said something different. I am wandering about the English

people wanting to be a part of the European Union. He is promising a

referendum for the whole of UK. argument on a referendum in

Westminster and with independence in Scotland, it is a worry, not

just for Scotland and England but for the young people of the UK and

within Scotland. I would like to know from both campaigns, what type

of future will young people have in Scotland as either an independent

country or within the United Kingdom? Because the work I have

done with young people, there is a clear contrast between the policies

that Scotland has for young people, particularly around unemployment.

Do you think the European Union to mention matters? Absolutely. It is

extremely important. The European Union... It has youth on a move,

the Erasmus schemes, they are very important for the unemployed people

in Scotland and England. And also those in colleges and universities.

And in that a referendum in Westminster or the threat of that

could be a danger for people in Scotland. On the European question,

Jakub Oszczepalinski. Whether we should stay or not? The original

question was about a vision. there are many different visions.

We have the option for Scotland staying in the EU. Mr Barroso made

a point about us reapplying. Will they still pay contributions?

are some politicians have that same maybe. All the parties want to keep

Scotland in the European Union whilst Mr Cameron gave yes campaign

a huge gift saying maybe we should get out. Lots of people saying we

should opt out as the United Kingdom. That will influence

Scotland heavily and many people, at least come I have spoken to,

they want to stay in the European Union. From what we can see,

Scotland is clearly staying within that European Union but we will

have to negotiate our weight in. Can I just say, it concerns me when

you have Cameron talking about renegotiating because two. Stand-up

for me. Repatriation at work. Undercutting wages and bringing

back Clause... He wants to stay in. That means attacking workers'

rights and taking us out of the benefits of the European Union and

then there is the Human Rights Act. The scaremongering that has gone on

by focusing on a couple of individuals to attack some

legislation that has protected Refugees, workers' rights within

this country, has protected women's rights, gender equality, he wants

to do away with all of that and I would prefer to be in a independent

Scotland rather than take a chance with an English government that is

doing everything to scaremonger asked to leave Europe. Lady in the

front. You would have to reapply to the European Union which means you

might be asked to accept the euro. We are into our last few minutes. A

final question. The last one is on the economy. It comes from this

lady. Scotland enjoyed many benefits by being with the UK,

especially during the recent years of economic downturn. Will we lose

jobs and benefits if we leave the UK? Are I would be interested to

hear from the audience but first of all to you. I would like to say

that the situation in Scotland concerning the employing the ethnic

minorities is very concerning. The statistics relating to those in

managerial professions, a significant number of people are

unemployed or are from ethnic minorities. As well as issues

around under employment. So people doing jobs they are not actually

commensurate with their qualifications. There is an issue

of great concern as to what is happening in the UK and also in

terms of representation again. It should show the way. We should be

showing an example in terms of employing ethnic minorities,

predominantly at the lowest levels of organisations were they tend to

be disproportionately represented and at all organisation hierarchies.

Of that is what we would like to see any government in power doing

much more of, taking a proactive stance on these issues and not

And they will Art Council be done on employing overseas in government

bodies -- I think a lot can be done in terms of employing Epping

One thing I do not get a clear picture of, we get a lot of

policies from the SNP government in what they would do in terms of

independence. One point that is probably missed from a lot of

parties and the No campaign is, if Scotland was to beat independent,

what other policies as government? Not negative about just know, but

if independence is to come, what are the policies on immigration and

foreign policies? I think that is something we would really like to

hear put up if you were in the government, the SNP government will

not be there forever. Are you going to take a lead from Westminster or

be independent in your own party's? I will let them or we that into

their aunties. -- I will let them put that into their answers.

refugee Council have provided the basis of discussion of whatever

happening -- whatever happened in the referendum concerning asylum

and refugee issues. Have the people in political parties seen this?

there and economic.? The economic points is that people who are new

in this country have no ability to work, they are not allowed to work.

And you believe they should be? They should certainly be able to

fit into our society in a better way than happened at the moment.

Gentleman over here. Regarding the economics, already the ethnic

minorities are suffering under representation, especially in jobs.

And if there is going to be an independent Scotland, the

government has to prove to us that it will be better for them. What we

are experiencing at the moment, as part of the United Kingdom, we talk

about asylum and refugees, but we have not mentioned people who have

got their documents with the Home Office. The UK board agency said

they had 300,000 backlog. The government talk about cuts in

spending. They were not looking at people being put under pressure,

families and individuals. At the moment, epic minorities are

suffering. And the government needs to let us know when it will be

better on the other side, or we should continue with the devil on

You will need to say he Harry will be better off with independence,

but if Scotland remain in the UK, how would that be better? If you

look at some of the things like corporation tax being reduced,

hopefully down to 20%, a drop in unemployment, it is now 7.8% UK-

wide which is lower than it was before the crash. This week, we

have seen billions put on share prices because businesses are

recovering. Today the FTSE 100 went though it -- went through the 6300

mark for the first time since the crash. If you were in charge just

in Scotland could do not make a better fist of it? You have got to

see what you would get in the terms of size. If you look at something

about like when you have shocks to the system, when you have a large

financial institutions failing, being part of a larger unit means

you can support shocks to the system and keep going. In terms of

one of the point that was made about opportunities for young

people growing up, we should also acknowledge where devolution is in

this debate. Education is already devolved to Scotland so we are

making decisions there. Things like having a Commonwealth these are so

you can work abroad in Australia and New Zealand is something you

get from the UK government and that is something a lot of young people

benefit from. Scotland would have access for that as a Commonwealth

country? We do not know. I tried to think about this and put the issue

on the other faults, and see if Scotland was independent and were

having a referendum to join the union, would you want to join the

union that had a triple dip recession? That spends money on a

tried and used it -- nuclear submarine is said of things like

welfare? The welfare system is being decimated to the point where

you are cutting the tax of the highest and richest in order -- in

order to cut away from the disabled. The question was, if you want

people to vote for independence, it cannot just be about being unhappy

with what you have got now, you have got to persuade them there is

something better than the corner. You don't spend �100 billion on

nuclear Trident weapons. I am not here to say that if independence

comes tomorrow we all hold hands and the sun will shine forever and

we will get rid of all our problems. Will it be better or worse off?

do not have a crystal ball. So you would not be able to give

guarantees? In good times or bad times it is always better to have

power in your own hands so you can make decisions in the interest of

your people. That is what independence brings. Being in the

UK is nine-nation, I am British and Scottish. Both sides of the debate

can be carried away. Let's have the power in our own hands, so

institutions like NHS and free education are not decimated. By a

UK government he just cares not a jot about Scotland. You don't want

housing benefit to be back on the same on both sides of the border?

Communities better to have miles apart have the same? That is some

of the Arden as you are going to hear a lot of in the course of the

coming months running up to the referendum. Our time is over,

although this is the first of a series of Newsnight Scotland debate.