28/01/2013 Newsnight Scotland


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Who are the New Scots, and what role do they have to play in the


independence debate? Tonight we'll discuss with politicians, experts


Good evening and welcome to the first in a series of special


Newsnight Scotland debates. Tonight, we'll be hearing from members of


Scotland's ethnic minority communities. They'll be quizzing


two leading politicians on subjects ranging from the independence


referendum, to Scottish identity, to our future in the European Union.


Those politicians are the SNP's Humza Yousaf, who's also the


Scottish Government's Minister for External Affairs and International


Development. And he's joined by Ruth Davidson, leader of the


Scottish Conservatives. I'm also joined by a panel with wide


experience. They are: Gina Netto, an expert in identity and ethnicity


at Heriot Watt University. Aamer Anwar, the well-known lawyer. Jakub


Oszczepalinski, a journalist with a Polish-language online magazine.


And Colin Lee. And he's the Scottish director for the Council


for Ethnic Minority Voluntary Our questions come from our


audience. Now, our first question is from Dr Nasar Meer.


Many Scots like to think we are less racist and more tolerant of


ethnic communities than elsewhere in the UK. Is that a complacent


attitude, as Scotland's tolerance has yet to be stress-tested?


I'd be interested in here the thoughts of some of our audience


that have moved to Scotland from other countries. I will come to you


in a moment but first Aamer Anwar. In 1986, I used to here nasty terms.


I think Scotland is an inclusive community but the reality is that


when it has been tested, there has always been a backlash. We have


seen racist murders, we have seen our own Stephen Lawrence. But the


response of the wider community has been positive. The concern I have


is when you look across society, the words institutional racism are


in the distance. You do not see black judges, police officers,


senior ranking. It doesn't exist. Even after the airport attack in


does go, everybody was in unity saying how wonderful it was, but a


few months later we had the case, a terrorist case in court, and


subsequently this terraced was released, and there was a backlash.


There was Islam a phobia, and that is still there as part of the UK.


But I blame the UK politicians for that. Well, I think in many ways


leaving -- living in Scotland is more pleasant and conducive than


living in some parts of England. Have you done both or from your


research? From my research. I would have to say there is a danger of


complacency. Although it might be very pleasant in some very middle-


class neighbourhoods, the reality in some estates is that it is harsh.


There is resentment towards new arrivals. And this is in areas


particularly where there is areas of deprivation. But not confined to


these areas. And also we know, we have statistics, the number of


racial harassment, the number of incidents is increasing. Last year


it was 10%, at 10% increase in racial harassment. Over 5,000 cases


of reported harassment alone. And we all know that there is


significant under-reporting as well as reporting. Let's bring in our


audience. Who he has moved to Scotland from another country? Who


has had that experience? The lady in the front row. Good explorers or


not so good? Very good experience. Scotland is very welcoming. I have


enjoyed the privilege of meeting very interesting people who have


given me lots of opportunities to collaborate with them. Over the


last two years, however, I have felt politically excluded from the


current argument in the independence debate. That is why I


am here tonight to see if we can go forward without. Thank you for


being here. And the gentleman in the middle. I came to Scotland


about 30 years ago and I have never looked back. I have become an


integral part of the society and I have taken the traits of the


Scottish people myself without realising it. The lady who said it


is a very welcoming country, I agree with her. It is an integral


part of our lives. Have you ever had a bad experience? I have. When


I first moved to my home town, I had to get into fights to become


initiated into society, but that is part and parcel of the car -- part


and parcel of the culture. I have never seen a single incident of


racial harassment. I work in the streets and I feel as safe as the


next person. Ruth Davidson, could we become more complacent on this


if we see ourselves as tolerant? Were do have to work hard at all


levels to make sure we get past that. We would expect the blame to


be put on the UK Government from yes campaign. There was a rise in


racial crimes last year. It may be a case of more reporting, it could


be a case of more crimes, so we shouldn't be too upset. Or it is


fantastic about Scotland is the amount of work that goes on to try


to bring people together. For example, our faith communities to a


lot of work across Scotland. We were both at the same fund raiser


last night. And you see through what goes on at the synagogues, the


work that goes on in the mosques and churches, you see an awful lot


of good work that happens across Scotland. And government should be


given a pat on the back were a pat on the back is due. We talk about


the attack on Glasgow airport. One of the finest things Alex Salmond


did was make sure he got himself down to the mosque to say that


Scotland stands with its communities. We are all Scottish


and we all have a place. question mentioned stress testing.


You felt perhaps Scotland's Torrance hadn't been stressed


tested. What did you mean by that? The rhetoric is great. I think that


Scotland's political leaders have been a model of inclusion and that


is something that has to be recognised and celebrated but the


policies haven't been there. When minorities have asked for things,


and they haven't asked for Mark, whereas in England they have got


faith schools and other things, in Scotland, that kind of thing has


not been received or conferred. agree with the number of comments


made here on the panel. You can never be complacent and we have had


some difficult times. You can argue about the racial difficulties,


every member of the ethnic minority has faced some kind of racial


incident. In Scotland generally, because it is a numbers game, it


may be, but it is welcoming and open. We do not have this idea... I


wouldn't blame Westminster politicians as such, but my friends


South of the border say that some parts of England, it can be a lot


more difficult because the rhetoric is choose one identity over the


other whereas in Scotland we say we support at the crab football team


etc etc and that is enough to make you Scottish. Our from South of the


border, they ask, are you Bangladeshi or British? They have


to choose. That is not helped by the Westminster debate. Politicians


have to take responsibility. It isn't easy hit if you want to


attack multiculturalism. Actually, we have to be tempered. In Scotland,


we have been good at that. anybody can be Scottish? If you


feel Scottish, you are Scottish. was just going to say that with


that the debate increasing about the future of Scotland in a


referendum for independence, I think that ethnic minorities should


take the opportunity of becoming more involved with politics. It is


a wonderful opportunity for them. I think... I am the daughter of a


Polish immigrant during the last war and certainly they were there


are welcomed at that time and I am glad to say that today most people


that I have spoken to have come into Scotland have been very well


welcomed. I want to bring in another slightly different


perspective in all of this. You have a follow-up question.


There are many different identities in Scotland. Does the panel think


that the each side of the referendum campaign properly


recognises those identities? And are they successfully engaging with


ethnic minority communities? well, let's develop that with Colin


Lee. Interesting enough, we have done a piece of research on


identity and how Scottish people actually relate to engage with the


political process and to be honest a lot of people within the ethnic


communities are very disengaged with politics and democracy


generally because what they see is very much not part of being the


democratic process in society in terms of how they relate to


politics, in terms of role-models. There is no politicians... Not


representative of diverse communities anyway. This is about


politics and democracy generally which I think has to be a bit more


engaging. And in terms of how they engage with young people. Do people


reach out to those from Poland, from Eastern Europe as well as the


black and minority ethnic minorities we touched on? Sort of,


yes. Especially before the elections or before the referendum.


We do get calls from politicians about running the story on the


referendum. On a daily basis, we get Harbin any contact with


politicians. But you have contact in this fairly early stage from


both camps? Yes. We had both parties calling us up in the last


couple of months. But normally it stops. As a website, we remain


neutral. We are happy to put both forward. The lady in the front row.


Yes Scotland is engaging with the ethnic minorities. Are you


involved? I am. For us and one of the concerns for many of the


minority communities is legislation coming out of Westminster


particularly in relation to emigration. In 2012, there were


nine Changes in Immigration Rules were applicants have found


themselves submitting applications in terms of one category to find


A of I know they are reaching a the community's right across Scotland,


not just at BME communities but other white British communities


that have in Scotland, we should not forget them. Other minority


communities as well. I know it that in terms of the debate going


forward, it is going to be a long debate, it is going to last well


over a year and a half. Not this programme! No! We will try to


engage with as many people as we can. What would your key message on


the Yes side the and then on the other side? There is always more


you can do, in terms of reaching out to all segments in society. The


key message is, we're open to engage. We want to engage, and hear


views. We will not shy away. It will be very tempting to assume


that ethnic minority communities have a vastly different opinion.


There are specific issues in terms of minorities. But it is important


to realise that ethnic minorities have made a huge contributor seat -


- contribution to Scotland through businesses and education, in fact,


the punch above their weight. want to ask Ruth the same point,


what we did the key message be? What we want is not vastly


different -- what BME once is not vastly different. I think being


part of the UK, or sitting at the top table in terms of NATO, it is


about being a world citizen. Being part of a larger UK and all that


entails is of benefit of people of Scotland no matter where they were


born. Let's move on to another question, now. Under independent


Scotland, should we have a more open or more restrictive


immigration policy? I will leave the politicians, I am interested to


hear what the audience think. Let's put that festival to you, Gina


Netto. My view on that is not so much of the extent of immigration,


but how ethnic-minority is within the country are treated. That has


been my most -- main era of interest. There have been


significant problems that remain to be addressed about how people who


are in ethnic minorities are born and raised in this country and live


in Scottish society, but they continue to struggle. As well as


enjoying the many pleasures of being in Scotland. That has been my


main focus of interest. My concern is in terms of looking, and in that


sense, whether or not Scotland becomes independent or not, I think


there are significant issues that the current Scottish government can


address, because it has significant powers within... Sorry, that how


devolved to Scotland. specifically on immigration.


but there are a whole range, I suppose, my argument would be that,


let's look at what Scotland is doing with its ethnic minority


population now. Let's look at the strides they are making in terms of


progress with dealing with ethnic minorities, who were in the country.


A lot of people have moved to Scotland from Eastern -- Eastern


Europe in recent years, and to date the UK government is looking at


ways in which it can continue on restrictions from people coming


from Romania and Bulgaria, for instance. Do you see that as a


sensible measure? It all depends. We had some estimates about how


many people came to the UK from Poland, they will wear off. There


is a lot of scaremongering going on in Westminster are saying there


will be half a million new immigrants coming into the UK, I


read an art -- an article in the Guardian that highlighting their


facts that many Romanians will go to Italy and Germany where they


already have relatives. It is not as big an issue as with the Polish


community. Let me bring in the Lady in the front row. I a good first of


all -- I would first of all likely to separate the EU population to


and non e u populations, they are very different. Am an immigrant


from India on the point The point System. Will this goatish


independent government honour -- will be independent Scottish


government bona the UK -- on a the Picking up on those points. I will


pick up on some of the points. The division question, it is about an


independent Scotland, it will be more open and conclusive. --


inclusive. The point of having control in an independent Scotland


is we will be able to have make that system in the interests of


Scotland. Does that mean it would be more open or more restrictive?


It would be to do with the needs of Scotland. The need for Scotland is


we need more skilled migrants, there are lot of institutions that


sake we need more skilled migration. We have a demographic gap.


Immigration at the moment has completely become a dirty word in


the UK. Immigration is a two-way thing. We have migrants coming in


but we have Scottish pensioners in Spain. Immigration and migration go


hand in hand. Immigration is not decided in the best interest of the


UK and Scotland. UK governments have this -- have made the


immigration argument about what the right wing press or UKIP are saying.


I think it is a little bit this ingenious, particularly if you


think about the last government, -- disingenuous, I do not think there


is migrant bashing from the right- wing press. A it is an ideological


drive. We have to acknowledge how much Scotland has benefited from


the amount of immigration we have here. In terms of all the immigrant


groups we haven't gone and, the way they are classified, Everest -- we


have in Scotland. They are likely to have a degree more. There are a


higher proportion of people in management jobs. And particularly


if you look at Colin's point, I remember the scare stories when


there was EU enlargement, this number of Polish people that people


said were going to come to Scotland. It has been nothing but positive. I


think the majority of Scots would say that the Polish contributed,


they are the largest and minority. It is fantastic. When it comes to


Romanians and Bulgarians, do you, like Number Ten, want to look at


ways of continuing with its restrictions or would you say from


Scotland's point of view, we could do with some more? The restrictions


were brought in in 2005 under the last Labour government survey --


and they expire at the end of this year. There is a move, under the


last government there were more than 2 million people neck migrants


to the UK. That is a third of the UK -- population of Scotland. To be


honest, I think there is less of an issue in Scotland and is in the


rest of the UK, because the numbers and percentage of people who come


and settle in Scotland is much smaller. So why not control powers


so we have more flexibility in the system? Because I do not


particularly want border post at the border. It is the worst type of


scaremongering. That was tried by Lord John Reid in early 2000.


want to bring in someone else. it Ruth talks about, we have to


welcome the contribution of ethnic minorities, it reminds me of when


people say, and some of my best friends are black. A set of UK


governments have pandered to racism and the far right by continually


raising the race card and the immigrant card. First the war it


was the Jews, then the Irish, then the Asians, then Africans, then


asylum-seekers, now eastern Europeans. So they keep reiterating


that immigration is a problem -- is a problem. In Scotland, more people


are leaving the country than 10 to becoming a. People who come into


this country for the last 100 years have made massive contributions, so


why not celebrate that? That is exactly what I just said. I wants


to bring in people in our audience. In which case, after listening to


what the panel has said, in which case I think after we have made a


choice in the Independent referendum, we will be in a


position when all the parties seem to agree that Scotland should be


treated differently in a gust of population, whether we accept


immigrants in this country. We are looking at a situation in this


country where, independence referendum on not, we have to think


as a nation, do we want to have? Are we able to contain many more


migrants, and can make continue -- can they continue to contribute?


Westminster has a population numbers problem, we do not have the


same problem up here, maybe we could afford to have a few more


bodies. Is it, how do we as migrants contribute to this


country? Economic it, poultry and in every way? -- economic League,


culturally and in every way? I want to touch briefly on asylum. Should


the Westminster government of that amnesty to asylum-seekers leading


this country? -- offer amnesty? Will the SNP government itself


commit itself to a programme, if Scotland became independent


tomorrow? That is one for the politicians. The idea of an amnesty


for those claiming asylum in the country. For me, the issue is not


about the amnesty. It is about... You are not in favour of an


amnesty? We have never talked about a blanket amnesty. It gets my goat


the fact that the UK BA, the Borders Agency, keeps finding this


backlog of tens of thousands. you not find a way of clearing


that? What we have to do in terms of asylum and, I am pleased at the


BBC has recognised immigration as different to asylum because people


sometimes equate the two. When it comes to asylum, we have to realise


we have an inhumane system in the United Kingdom governments. We


treat our animals better than we treat some asylum-seekers. We are


talking about destitution in some places, you see it here in Glasgow.


We also see the dawn raids happening, children being detained


and taken south of the border. said no to an amnesty? I and


shorter time. We can shake the system. You would not tell us what


the system would be. It is all in the White Paper! I do not believe


in a blanket amnesty, I would to correct Humza Yousaf, there are


only about 2500, not tens of thousands. We inherited a a bad


system. I said that the UK borage People are trying to make progress.


When you look at achievements that a happening, some centres are shut


so there are are no children being detained. So you just transfer them


to England, take children in Scotland, that is a disgrace. You


do not have it in Scotland, but we are better together because we can


shut them up down south. It is frankly disgraceful. Neither of us


believe in a blanket amnesty. you believe in charge attention?


believe both that there is a good system. I do the questions, and it


was not about Chau detention. I We have heard much in recent weeks


about the UK's and Scotland's future relationship with the


European Union. What is your vision of the European Union? Do you have


a vision of how we should relate with the European Union? To let me


be more specific. What will be independent Scotland's situation in


the European Union are? And to be more specific, East European


communities are worried whether their status changes in case


Scotland becomes independent. Humza Yousaf. To say to the


gentleman in the front, your biggest worry, when you think of


the Polish community, anywhere between 70 have one-hundredth 1,000


people work in Scotland. Scotland will continue its membership of the


European Union. Undoubtedly? Absolutely. This is ridiculous.


Irish foreign minister also you would have to reapply. We would not


be outside the European Union. If you point to the directive where we


would be outside the European Union. I can point to the exact one. I can


go for the exact quote. You would have to reapply to join. We would


continue membership! You would have to reapply. Can I just ask you, do


you accept that with independence, the Scottish Government would have


to submit a fresh application as a new state? It is about continued


membership. Sir there would be no application? If you are not going


to be out of the European Union for a single day, why would you have to


reapply? Three foreign ministers and the head of the European


Commission's say... They are not saying he would not be welcome but


you would have to reapply. We are in a clear position. We negotiated


terms. We you had a meeting with the European Union. Let me address


the gentleman's point. When it comes to Eastern Europeans or the


Polish community, for example, Scotland is not going to be outside


of the European Union. Where was your legal advice for that? You


don't have any. Your uncertainty does not exist with an independent


Scotland but with the UK Government. It wants to repeat outside the


European Union. We had a situation that if you want to Scotland in the


European Union, you are better voting Yes in the referendum.


me take up the point. First of all, we have a Scottish Government which


found that it would not be in the European Union and it would have to


reapply. You have got three President's all saying you would


have to do that. It is just scaremongering. Are they


scaremongering? I don't think people would believe that. About


the UK Government position, David Cameron made it clear in his speech


and when he was questioned at it at PMQs that he was campaigning to


stay in a reformed European Union. He wants a better deal for the


people, for Scotland, too. On this point what would happen if Scotland


became independent, we have had various contributions, but what the


European Commission has said is it would be prepared to set out in


detail what would happen if the UK Government would ask the question.


Do you support the Scottish Government and asking the UK to


seek that advice so that we can know the position and the Christian


and know what its status would be? I was under the impression because


Nicola Sturgeon stood up and said she was not just seeking a meeting


with just a man while Barroso but she was getting one. She was going


to be able to do it anyway. Not only that but his deputy has to


turn back and say we are not even meeting with the Scottish


Government. They have peddled untruths, Ms information right from


the start. The question is whether you could get the UK Government to


do us all a favour and get the clarity we need for the purposes of


this debate. We all want to know the answer! We have got the clarity.


The head of the European Commission is saying they would have to


reapply. How much clearer do you need it? Would you set out that


prices in detail? He has said... I will quote you. If one part of the


country wants to become independent, of course as an independent state


it has to apply to the European membership according to the rules.


OK, I want to bring in members of the audience on this, people who


haven't spoken so far. I'm not worrying about Scotland whether it


will stay in the European Union because after a few days of Mr


Cameron's speech, I am wondering whether England will stay. Scotland


will stay because the politicians want to stay in the EU. But Mr


Cameron said something different. I am wandering about the English


people wanting to be a part of the European Union. He is promising a


referendum for the whole of UK. argument on a referendum in


Westminster and with independence in Scotland, it is a worry, not


just for Scotland and England but for the young people of the UK and


within Scotland. I would like to know from both campaigns, what type


of future will young people have in Scotland as either an independent


country or within the United Kingdom? Because the work I have


done with young people, there is a clear contrast between the policies


that Scotland has for young people, particularly around unemployment.


Do you think the European Union to mention matters? Absolutely. It is


extremely important. The European Union... It has youth on a move,


the Erasmus schemes, they are very important for the unemployed people


in Scotland and England. And also those in colleges and universities.


And in that a referendum in Westminster or the threat of that


could be a danger for people in Scotland. On the European question,


Jakub Oszczepalinski. Whether we should stay or not? The original


question was about a vision. there are many different visions.


We have the option for Scotland staying in the EU. Mr Barroso made


a point about us reapplying. Will they still pay contributions?


are some politicians have that same maybe. All the parties want to keep


Scotland in the European Union whilst Mr Cameron gave yes campaign


a huge gift saying maybe we should get out. Lots of people saying we


should opt out as the United Kingdom. That will influence


Scotland heavily and many people, at least come I have spoken to,


they want to stay in the European Union. From what we can see,


Scotland is clearly staying within that European Union but we will


have to negotiate our weight in. Can I just say, it concerns me when


you have Cameron talking about renegotiating because two. Stand-up


for me. Repatriation at work. Undercutting wages and bringing


back Clause... He wants to stay in. That means attacking workers'


rights and taking us out of the benefits of the European Union and


then there is the Human Rights Act. The scaremongering that has gone on


by focusing on a couple of individuals to attack some


legislation that has protected Refugees, workers' rights within


this country, has protected women's rights, gender equality, he wants


to do away with all of that and I would prefer to be in a independent


Scotland rather than take a chance with an English government that is


doing everything to scaremonger asked to leave Europe. Lady in the


front. You would have to reapply to the European Union which means you


might be asked to accept the euro. We are into our last few minutes. A


final question. The last one is on the economy. It comes from this


lady. Scotland enjoyed many benefits by being with the UK,


especially during the recent years of economic downturn. Will we lose


jobs and benefits if we leave the UK? Are I would be interested to


hear from the audience but first of all to you. I would like to say


that the situation in Scotland concerning the employing the ethnic


minorities is very concerning. The statistics relating to those in


managerial professions, a significant number of people are


unemployed or are from ethnic minorities. As well as issues


around under employment. So people doing jobs they are not actually


commensurate with their qualifications. There is an issue


of great concern as to what is happening in the UK and also in


terms of representation again. It should show the way. We should be


showing an example in terms of employing ethnic minorities,


predominantly at the lowest levels of organisations were they tend to


be disproportionately represented and at all organisation hierarchies.


Of that is what we would like to see any government in power doing


much more of, taking a proactive stance on these issues and not


And they will Art Council be done on employing overseas in government


bodies -- I think a lot can be done in terms of employing Epping


One thing I do not get a clear picture of, we get a lot of


policies from the SNP government in what they would do in terms of


independence. One point that is probably missed from a lot of


parties and the No campaign is, if Scotland was to beat independent,


what other policies as government? Not negative about just know, but


if independence is to come, what are the policies on immigration and


foreign policies? I think that is something we would really like to


hear put up if you were in the government, the SNP government will


not be there forever. Are you going to take a lead from Westminster or


be independent in your own party's? I will let them or we that into


their aunties. -- I will let them put that into their answers.


refugee Council have provided the basis of discussion of whatever


happening -- whatever happened in the referendum concerning asylum


and refugee issues. Have the people in political parties seen this?


there and economic.? The economic points is that people who are new


in this country have no ability to work, they are not allowed to work.


And you believe they should be? They should certainly be able to


fit into our society in a better way than happened at the moment.


Gentleman over here. Regarding the economics, already the ethnic


minorities are suffering under representation, especially in jobs.


And if there is going to be an independent Scotland, the


government has to prove to us that it will be better for them. What we


are experiencing at the moment, as part of the United Kingdom, we talk


about asylum and refugees, but we have not mentioned people who have


got their documents with the Home Office. The UK board agency said


they had 300,000 backlog. The government talk about cuts in


spending. They were not looking at people being put under pressure,


families and individuals. At the moment, epic minorities are


suffering. And the government needs to let us know when it will be


better on the other side, or we should continue with the devil on


You will need to say he Harry will be better off with independence,


but if Scotland remain in the UK, how would that be better? If you


look at some of the things like corporation tax being reduced,


hopefully down to 20%, a drop in unemployment, it is now 7.8% UK-


wide which is lower than it was before the crash. This week, we


have seen billions put on share prices because businesses are


recovering. Today the FTSE 100 went though it -- went through the 6300


mark for the first time since the crash. If you were in charge just


in Scotland could do not make a better fist of it? You have got to


see what you would get in the terms of size. If you look at something


about like when you have shocks to the system, when you have a large


financial institutions failing, being part of a larger unit means


you can support shocks to the system and keep going. In terms of


one of the point that was made about opportunities for young


people growing up, we should also acknowledge where devolution is in


this debate. Education is already devolved to Scotland so we are


making decisions there. Things like having a Commonwealth these are so


you can work abroad in Australia and New Zealand is something you


get from the UK government and that is something a lot of young people


benefit from. Scotland would have access for that as a Commonwealth


country? We do not know. I tried to think about this and put the issue


on the other faults, and see if Scotland was independent and were


having a referendum to join the union, would you want to join the


union that had a triple dip recession? That spends money on a


tried and used it -- nuclear submarine is said of things like


welfare? The welfare system is being decimated to the point where


you are cutting the tax of the highest and richest in order -- in


order to cut away from the disabled. The question was, if you want


people to vote for independence, it cannot just be about being unhappy


with what you have got now, you have got to persuade them there is


something better than the corner. You don't spend �100 billion on


nuclear Trident weapons. I am not here to say that if independence


comes tomorrow we all hold hands and the sun will shine forever and


we will get rid of all our problems. Will it be better or worse off?


do not have a crystal ball. So you would not be able to give


guarantees? In good times or bad times it is always better to have


power in your own hands so you can make decisions in the interest of


your people. That is what independence brings. Being in the


UK is nine-nation, I am British and Scottish. Both sides of the debate


can be carried away. Let's have the power in our own hands, so


institutions like NHS and free education are not decimated. By a


UK government he just cares not a jot about Scotland. You don't want


housing benefit to be back on the same on both sides of the border?


Communities better to have miles apart have the same? That is some


of the Arden as you are going to hear a lot of in the course of the


coming months running up to the referendum. Our time is over,


although this is the first of a series of Newsnight Scotland debate.


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