06/06/2013 Newsnight Scotland

Deputy First Minister tells us that independence will improve our

relationship with the rest of the UK. We will find out how the Irish

and the Scandinavians get on with their neighbours. And behind the

scenes at the Explorers Club. A love that some objects that tell the

story of a Scottish search for knowledge in all corners of the

globe. Good evening. How might a postindependence Scotland get on

with the rest of the UK? Nationalist politicians have been keen to

suggest that the relationship would improve when we are no longer bound

together by a political system. In a speech this evening, the Deputy

First Minister proposed the British -Irish Council and the Nordic

Council as models for how we might be able to work together. In a

moment, we will be discussing how the Irish and Scandinavians get on

with their neighbours. First, Keays Andrew Black.

Tonight 's lecture, a lesson on being friends. Speaking at a

university event, Nicola Sturgeon said that under Scottish

independence, relations with the rest of the UK, far from being

ended, would see a healthy improvement. The fact is,

independence has never been, and never will be, about walking away.

Independence is about taking responsibility and working together.

Working together with other nations in the United Nations, in NATO, the

European Union, the British Irish Council and in many other

organisations. But, crucially, it is about working together as an equal

partner, rather than as a member of a union where one nation's interest

's, by nature of its size, are always likely to be prevailing.

also said that the relationship would mean that Scotland would not

have to go along with Westminster decisions like controversial welfare

reforms. She reinforced her argument by borrowing one of her opponent was

go key slogans. Scotland and the rest of the UK would stand on our

own two feet, taking our own decisions and working together on

issues of common interest. A relationship would be what it should

always have been, a partnership of equals. Powers in Scotland and an

equal relationship with friends and neighbours. That really would be the

best of both worlds. Talking about the referendum leading towards a

slippery slope... Nicola Sturgeon, who took questions from the

audience, said that the British Irish Council could serve as a

template for the new relationship, modelled on the Nordic Council,

which brings together the Scandinavian countries. But the

SNP's opponents say there is already a strong model for co-operation,

called the UK. Is this latest move, along with plans to keep the pound,

a soft sell on independence? Independence is about completing the

powers of the Scottish Parliament, finishing the devolution journey

that we started, making sure we have the powers to build the kind of

country we want to be, rather than the situation that we have at the

moment, where key areas of life are decided upon at Westminster and

decisions are taken that the majority of Scottish MPs vote

against, like the bedroom tax. But these things go ahead anyway.

speech that she was delivering here is central to the case for

independence. The SNP wants to make the case for full powers of

Scotland, also persuading voters that the rest of the UK will still

be close by. I am joined from Westminster by the

London correspondent of the Irish Times, Mark Hennessy, and from

Aberdeen by Dr Anders Widfeldt of the Nordic policy Centre at Aberdeen

University. Nicola Sturgeon is talking about the British Irish

Council, the Nordic Council, as templates for our relationship with

the rest of the UK. How is the British-Irish Council viewed from

the other side of the Irish Sea? is a question of God help us, if

that is what Nicola Sturgeon is talking about. The British-Irish

Council, whilst it has been a useful platform to allow full editions to

get to know each other, there is a lack of political momentum and

impetus behind it. The debate creature that has never developed in

the way that maybe some of the more ambitious people at the beginning

would have thought. I am not entirely sure what she means by

getting on. At the end of the day, relations between countries are

going to be decided by strategic interests. Relations between Ireland

and the UK were poisonous for decades. But that was largely

because of the whole issue of Northern Ireland. So this would not

be used to iron out any political differences between Dublin and

London? It could, but not in its current form. As of now, it is a

pretty minor figure on the stage. There is no reason to say that it

could not become more significant after Scottish independence. That

would require everybody involved, not just Edinburgh and London, but

also Dublin, Belfast, the Isle of Man and the other dependencies,

equally to get involved and to be prepared to put a political impetus

behind operations that does not exist at the moment. Dr Anders

Widfeldt how would you sum up the workings of the Nordic Council?

similar to the experience that has been related. After participating, I

was struggling to remember what the Nordic Council does. I had to look

at up on the internet, which is saying something, because I do teach

Nordic Latics. Is their rivalry between the nations in Scandinavia?

The Swedish and Finland ice hockey game is comparable to an English and

Germany football match, there is banter that sometimes gets out of

hand, of course. Some on the pro union order checks between Scotland

and England, something that is dismissed by those on the side of

independence. One of the achievements from Nordic cooperation

is the 1950s when free travel for citizens was introduced, freedom of

movement and labour. That is still the case. But this is also becoming

an issue, relationships in Denmark, where Sweden could be a transit

country. That is becoming a bowl of contention. Our sport free passage

was introduced in the early 50s. blog says that an independent

Scotland would drift from the UK. Rory Stewart says that history from

other countries teaches us that. What can the Irish example teachers

on that front? The Irish example is a special one, you're talking about

an agrarian economy that became dependent on immigration, getting

rid of its people for many years. So many of them came to Britain during

the 1950s and 60s, and in the 80s, and we have seen a new wave in more

recent years. It does display may be a willingness on the part of the

Irish to travel for work. That has created a situation where there are

very strong ties between Ireland and parts of Britain. To argue that

there is a genuine connection between the two peoples is perhaps

pushing it. A lot of the time, with the English, you will get a degree

of benign condescension, perhaps. It is all terribly friendly, but it is

not necessarily a relationship of equals. It is one that could be

improved a lot more if you did actually have a greater number of

Irish and British people meeting each other in their respective

countries. If you look at the tourism figures, they are not what

they should be, on either side of the Irish Sea. Dr Anders Widfeldt,

given that the Scandinavian countries are not a unitary group,

when it comes to detail, there is not even a common language, what

keeps them socially together? has been an ideology of Scandinavian

-ism which can be dated back to the 19th-century, but that was largely

Sweden, Denmark and Norway, and Finland is distinctive because of

language issues but also because of history. In fact, the Nordic

experience is very different to Britain. For example, the World War

II and cold war experiences were very different and the countries

were split up into very different configurations and had very

different experiences in World War II. A cabinet minister at

Westminster says there could be a brain drain if Scotland becomes

independent. That is something that I has to contend with. Are there

lessons that Scotland could learn from Ireland? They would have to

make a deliberate effort to keep the best and brightest at home, and that

would at best require a particular structure of research and

development and taxation, but I'm sure the Scottish Government has

already thought of many of those kinds of ideas. But is the brain

drain and effect of globalisation, economics? You could ask yourself

how many Scots are travelling south to London at the moment. The figures

are significant art they are not comparison with the figures -- but

they are nowhere near comparator with the figures from Ireland. The

brain drain has gone to Canada and Australia and the United States,

English-speaking countries, but not Britain. That in itself is perhaps a

reflection of the changing nature of the relationship between the two

islands. Many of the young people in the city are doing terrifically well

and enjoying the experience and if you look at a tear lower than that,

they are here because they lack of work but they have enjoyed the

experience that they have had even if it is not one would have

necessarily volunteered for. Let me thank you for your time.

That is the view of two gentlemen not from Scotland. Even Burns saw

there was a value in seeing ourselves as others see us. Let us

have another look at what others are getting up to. The Royal Scottish

Geographical Society has been specialising in that since 1884.

David Livingstone'sdaughter helped found it, Scott and Shackleton

participated and the Scottish exploring tradition is still

supported by. The headquarters in Perth hold a treasure trove of

expedition and a survey records. It surveys the life and work of

those who mapped our planet and beyond. Some, like David

Livingstone, are household names. Others less so. This is the Royal

Scottish Geographical Society of Scotland. This book records those it

has honoured over the years. Every other page turns up another gem.

This is, I think, one of the moments in our history which encapsulates

society. Robert Falk and Scott -- Falklands Scott. This is an event

when we hosted a dinner hosted by the king when Robert Scott was

awarded one of our most significant medals. He was the leading Antarctic

polar explorer from England and the leading polar scientist from

Scotland and the whole event was organised by Shackleton, because he

did my job in 1904-05. It was a real coming together, a moment in

history. The society is run by full-time staff and volunteers. Each

has their favourite object from the collection. You are looking at

something with tremendous political resonance. We are looking at a map

of 1714 and we are looking just five years after the union of the

Parliaments, so the title is buried astutely the north part of Great

Britain, not Scotland, the north part of Great Britain. And as you

will also realise, it is exactly 300 years before the vote in next year,

so it is a rather historical document with a modern resonance.

From one map to 22,001 maps produced in the 1930s, from which came the

land utilisation map of Great Britain. It involved a school

children, students and nuns. Sir Dudley kept his eye on them.

persuaded his wife to get driving lessons and he drove around the

area, he was rather large of girth, and he stood on this platform that

he had instructed on the passenger seat and he poked his head and the

rest of him through the actual sunroof and he drove slowly down the

country lanes. The other person, his number two, was this chap. His wife

drove the motorbike and he stood up on the site care -- Sidecar and he

transcribed maps to the correct scale by these ladies, a team from

the London School of economics. They discovered, or they reminded

themselves, of the reliance on imported food from abroad and

suddenly there was a great demand from these maps, and so we can argue

that Churchill's idea that we shall fight them in the field, it was

people in the field growing a lot more in the way of crops, this was

an essential part of feeding Britain and I think something like 2 million

acres of land were given over to arable production. The society was

formed as Arctic exploration was beginning and it tells the story of

Henry good sir who left on an early expedition. This was his last letter

back before the expedition went beyond means of Camino cage on. --

communication. The letter is to his brother John. We have been lying

here eight days and in that time have adopted the vocabulary and

peculiarities of the natives, we have assessed the geography of the

island, which is there a simple and the ice up on them is a very

interesting subject and prominently marked and also contains specimens

of the vertebrate as well as the invertebrate animals. You can see

the enthusiasm of a young naturalist explorer and this makes his loss

with the rest of the Franklin expedition loss all the more tragic.

But here we have a tremendous insight into what is going on, not

at the command level but at the junior level. Expeditions have come

a long way in the 133 years since the start of the society.

Just two front pages before we go. The Herald says an attack on benefit

reform, the Scotsman once that half of Scots will get cancer putting

stress on the NHS. That is all from us. Good night. We reached 25

degrees today. Not the same low cloud that we are seen. The cloud

coming in from the south could give us one or two showers. Many places

will have a dry day with a lot of sunshine. It will stay dry in

Northern Ireland. These are showers over the Scottish mountains, vary

few and far between. It will be warm for this time of year. Sunny spells

across much of northern England and the Midlands. A little cloud coming

in from the south, a stronger breeze as well. Some spots of rain in the

Southeast, something a little livelier later in Cornwall. Thunder

is possible, but a very hit and miss. Wales should stay dry with

temperatures typically around 22 degrees. It will be cooler around

the North Sea coast. Heading into the weekend and there will be no

major surprises, we will see a little bit more cloud around eastern

parts of England and Scotland but most places are bright and warm and

sunny. Temperatures over the weekend are not quite as high as we are