04/07/2013 Newsnight Scotland

Government. It keeps us in touch with reality and ordinary people.

Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: What sort of town do you want to live in?

A new report commissioned by the government describes a country whose

town centres are all too often full of empty shops and empty of people.

But does it come up with any sensible proposals to do anything

about it? Good evening. A successful town

centre needs not just shops but people living in it. We don't all

drive, so out of town shopping doesn't suit everyone. It may be

stating the obvious but does today's report come up with any new ideas to

change things? First, Andrew Black reports.

The economic downturn has had a tough effect on many towns in

Scotland. Here the local council is looking to turn its fortunes around

with an ambitious development plan for the future. The number of to let

signs on Don Barton's high-street tell a familiar story. We are right

on the banks of the River. The local council has been making strides to

rejuvenate Dunbarton and wants to attract new investment to rejuvenate

the town centre. We have spent money on the walkways, lighting and public

seating. Trying to encourage people to use this as part of the town

centre environment. Even so the council is under no illusions as to

the scale of the task. I think people look at the town centre as a

barometer of how the town is doing. Like all town centres we have

difficulties and out of town shopping. What we need to do is try

to make sure the town centres have links and they can survive in

today's economy and where there is some out of town shopping, we need

to link it as best we can and that is what we are trying to do in

Dunbarton as town is just at the side of the town. We want people to

come to all parts of Dunbarton and ensure the money they spend is spent

wisely and locally. Today a government ordered review into the

issues affecting towns like Dunbarton published its findings,

organisation which speaks for high-street businesses but it warned

that putting it into practice was another matter altogether. The aims

of the report are laudable. We are delighted with it has been

acknowledged in black and white, we have been arguing for public bodies

to think of the town centre first. The real test is when the chips are

down and somebody has got to make the financial decision, do they put

these principles into reality and put town centres first? That would

be the hard bit. The north-east town of enquiry has been making a push to

promote its local economy. People here seem happy with what is on

offer. It is pretty good. Lots of choice. The only downside is

parking, Inverurie does not have much parking but otherwise it is

pretty vibrant. It is a nice place. I come here to go to the nice

cafes, quite a lot of shops. I live six miles down the road, this is not

my town centre but it is great. I love it. I wouldn't move back to

Aberdeen at all. Back in Dunbarton, council leaders say they are

determined to stick to their decision but it will be tough. West

Dunbartonshire's own investment plan say it could be up to 15 years

before some developments can be completed.

I'm joined now by the lead author of that report, architect Malcolm

Fraser. Also here is Glasgow University's professor of property

and urban studies, David Adams. And in Edinburgh, economist, journalist

and former councillor George Kerevan. Let's come on to talk about

some detail stuff in a moment but I just wanted to highlight some sort

of general thoughts, Malcolm Fraser. Few people would read your

report and say, I am not having any of that. The problem is, I am not

sure we don't have more ambiguous feelings about towns. All the

politicians say your idea is fabulous about getting people to

live in town centres but the last 100 years have been about suburbs.

People like living in suburbs rather than in town centres. Some people do

and some people don't. A lot of people would quite like to live in

the heart of their community. Young people, maybe old people. Not

everybody has a car. One thing we have identified is there is a huge

number of empty flats above shops in towns. It would be great to get them

into the social housing system, to get housing associations offering

the owners of these properties a package so that we can put young

married couples or old people into there. Doesn't that get to my

point? People have voted with their feet. I think what has happened in

town centres over many years is there has been political and market

failure so we have had a town centre policy for two decades but when it

comes to the crunch, politicians still allow large out-of-town

stores. Let's forget about the stores. I am suggesting that people

want to live in the suburbs, when they can afford to they would rather

like to buy their own property and they would like to do that in the

suburbs thank you very much, with a bit of greenery. Not always. There

are plenty of very, very expensive townhouses in Edinburgh and Glasgow

and all over the place. The number of people that live in my town,

Edinburgh, pay an awful lot for the house and love walking to work.

Edinburgh is not Dunbarton, or the plethora of other towns around

Scotland. In that case you have not got to think simply about living in

the town centre but facilities, schools, parks, the whole

environment. People do not just buy a house, they buy an environment to

live in. Another contradiction, perhaps in us, is we all say local

shops are fantastic, we want to see high-street driving. And we all chat

to each other about it as we are driving to the out-of-town

supermarket. Our desires for how our built environment is are in conflict

with each other. You make a good case. The numbers are a bit against

you. 40% of people in Scotland still live in small towns, not in Glasgow

, Edinburgh or suburbs. I mean people in small towns still like to

live on the outskirts rather than actually above the high Street.

people like to live where there is something going on. Not just a shop.

I live in Edinburgh which is about to double its population in August

because of the festival. One of the problems is that politicians have

not grasped what they need to do to make town 's work and make things

happen. This new report, it is a very good report, it is written in

plain English and is worth a read, but we get one of these every two or

three years. We had won in 2006, one in 2009, one in 2011, then Mary

Portas report. It seems politicians substitute producing reports on town

centre regeneration rather than doing anything. I think the Minister

should vow not to do another report for a decade, she should sit down

with the leaders of the small towns in Scotland and come up with a plan

and go and implement it. There you are. But it is a contradiction, the

only reason that out-of-town supermarkets do so well is because

people like to shop in them. It is nice you went to Inverurie and

Dunbarton. In Inverurie you saw people that were happy to be there.

We are social animals. We get our goods out of town but we do not feel

as connected and that is what towns do. I think we denigrate the

strength... But David, people vote with their feet. They go to where

they want to shop. The issue is, to the government want to implement

this policy or is this just another report? Some of the specific ideals,

we should explain sequential testing. You are a supermarket, you

want to put it in the town centre, if not, the outskirts of the town

centre, if not, the outskirts of the town... What does that mean? I am a

supermarket, I want to build a gigantic building. I cannot do it in

town, that's OK, I will do it out of town. Should it be that I'd be

saying something for the town centre? The courts seem to take the

idea that if they can't that in the town centre, tough. It is one for

the lawyers. But it really puts the onus on the supermarkets to find a

seat. What we need to do is put the onus on the local council to provide

sites. Even if it means that they have to buy up land and create those

sites themselves. Otherwise supermarkets will go where they want

to go. We want to extend this principle. In Edinburgh at the

moment they are trying to put thousands of houses in the green

belt when the centre of town is empty. You should not put facilities

out of town where you have to build new schools, sewers, roads, then

spend money closing down other schools, it is simple common sense

and for Scotland to do that, it would be a massive thing. We need to

build in town before we build out. can see that being feasible with

housing, less salt with his Mrs. You would get the same problem. -- less

so with businesses. A test called Gates in this would see judges

saying, that is OK. -- test court case. It is not just character and

stack. We are incentivising local authorities. -- and stack. Do you

think sequential development can work? There was a suggestion in

England that in England that they are should just be a policy that you

must develop inside towns. That would need intervention from the

secretary of state to overrule that. I am not certain if the government

in Westminster has decided against that just yet to make its mind up.

The reality of the planning process is that whatever the plans, each

application can be contested. Supermarkets can fight it and it can

take five, ten years. If you had an American style system of zoning,

this is a zone, you can do it in there, just go ahead, if you had

that kind of approach, you could simplify things. You could zone for

particular kinds of shopping and businesses. But unless we start with

as zoning process and get away from a contested process, it will never

work. What would that mean in practice? If a shop or business

wanted to set up in something defined as the town centre, you

would not be able to object? Exactly. You zone out. That area,

that size, that architecture, if you take the boxes, go ahead. Then the

political debate would be about the zoning. That is what happens in the

United States. Once you have as zoning plan, you can go off and do

that. In the UK, each application is a fight. George is suggesting we

transform the planning system entirely. If we did so, it made take

five years. What we want to move now with existing legislator believers.

To incentivise, to empower local communities, to take over buildings.

Throughout this I have focused on using the existing levers so that we

do not just talk. What if we became more like America? So you are not

against it... Absolutely not, we just need to move now. What do you

make of the theory that if you buy something new outside of the town

you do not pay VAT, but let them towns, 20%. -- with them. Is that a

problem? Absolutely. It has been raised on numerous occasions that

the Treasury but I have yet to hear a reason why that is justifiable.

is not very complex. That is the reason why it does not change. But

unfortunately that is the British context, we cannot do anything about

that. I have noted that. But the government strategy is much the same

as what you set out in your document. They have signed up. So

why wouldn't you want change? been campaigning for ten years and

not changed the mind of government. Others have. We just note that as

one of the levers that we cannot get our hands on. We would like to

though. You would -- you have another idea about something going

wrong. If there are empty premises, rents should fall. That isn't

happening, so it is not a real market. It is not. It is constrained

by valuation and ownership. Vacancy rates are ten, 15% in some towns.

Why do rents not fall to a level where they are affordable to new

businesses? They do not fall quickly or easily. Take Dumbarton. What do

you do? The chap from the council was talking about the Reverend even.

It is as if the town is inside out! -- River Leven. Dumbarton has much

to get out of this. You can fly from -- into Glasgow airport, yacht under

the marina, the market is enormous. This is yet to be constructive?

if Dumbarton looks to grow business rates, leisure, instead of moving

council offices outside town, pay themselves a rate instead of going

to government, new income streams, that incentivise is a place. George,

you pointed out in an article that it does not matter what the rules

and regulations are, you need imagination. You give the example of

Wetton, which we invented itself -- reinvented itself as a book town.

Not everyone can do that. But perhaps that is what is lacking,

creativity and imagination. What Malcolm does say is what he is

famous for, the cultural dimension. And I am with him there. It is not

just bricks and mortar. If things are going on, people will come. One

really interesting idea in the report is that town centres first

mean that cultural agencies must get on board. Creative Scotland and the

Heritage lottery fund. They must think twice about bringing money

into town centres. And government must stop mouthing platitudes.

Governments like to please people and like things to happen quickly.

So we have a good regeneration fund, really good projects, but it

tries to do things in a couple of years. Proper regeneration can take

a decade. Festivals, activities. We must think longer term. The problem

is that not everyone can have a cultural festival. Of course they

can! Everyone must play to their strengths. Forgive me, but is that

not one of the platitudes? Some of these towns do not have strengths.

Perhaps they once did, and could do, but as of now, they do not. They may

lack the local leadership to identify strengths. We are running

out of time and I wanted it on to what George said at the start. No

more reports like yours and we may get somewhere. Do you have

confidence the government can do something with this? Yes. These

things are all working with existing levers and I am very optimistic.

Thank you very much. Tomorrow's front pages. The Tom Watson