24/07/2013 Newsnight Scotland


24/07/2013

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we for St more BBC Scotland attained confirmation on the day that his

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six-hour set as Archbishop of Edinburgh was announced. This report

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contains some flash photography from the start. As you can see, I have

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brought my homework with me. Does this man have a road map to revive

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the catholic church in Scotland? His name is Leo casually. -- Leo

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Cushley. He is seen to be Archbishop on Saint Andrews and Edinburgh. I

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was very surprised and even shock. Although this has been talked about

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in Scotland for a number of months I was still quite some rise to known

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that they were releasing me from the diplomatic service to come here as

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the Archbishop of St Andrews and Edinburgh. It was, I must say, a bit

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of a shock, because I have been training for something else for the

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last 20 years. He comes to lead the flock still scandalised and shamed

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by the revelations around the personal life of the man he

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succeeds. The other half of the paper is adopted lying and that is

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where you write in the name of the cardinal who you think will be Pope.

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In February, Pete O'Brien's world fell apart. He first denied and then

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agreed... It was further... Where are we now discovering the full

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circumstance of the cardinals read -- resignation and the nature of the

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behaviour that led to it? Pope Francis has yet to order an

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investigation. Catherine Deveney was the journalist who broke the story.

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I know that the Catholic Church are continuing to cover up because of

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the stories that have come forward to me and until they stop trying to

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cover up the wrong thing and do the right thing, the Catholic Church

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will never move forward. Monsignor Leo Cushley says he is ready to

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investigate if that's to do so by the Pope. I intend to work very hard

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to make sure that we get this business sorted out. Monsignor Leo

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Cushley and his brother bishops have many challenges ahead, including

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falling congregations and an ageing priesthood, but closing the door on

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the cardinal O'Brien scandal will surely be among the top priorities

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both for the Vatican and the Scottish hierarchy. High end joined

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by Catherine Devaney who broke the story. John Haldane is Professor of

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moral philosophy at Saint Andrew 's University and adviser to the

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Vatican, and Stephen McGinty is the biographer of Cardinal Winning. You

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were hoping and you had been assured, or the people you were

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talking to borrow short, they would be an enquiry. That is absolutely

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right and what is sad about this is it there's another example of the

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Catholic Church doing one thing and saying another. An apostolic

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visitation was promised to one of the complainants against Cardinal

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Keith O'Brien. When somebody has already been heard by the church, to

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bring them to a Private meeting and promised them an apostolic

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visitation and then back out of it is bad behaviour in anybody's book.

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Was it not always the case that the investigation was always going to be

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this apostolic visitation, as they call it, and that it was always

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gained be left up to whoever was appointed to replace Keith O'Brien?

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No, in fact there was a great jeweller pressure put on for many

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months to ask for an investigation. The complainants had been asking for

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some action to be taken. At the meeting with the papal Nuncio, one

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of the complainants, the papal muncher said to him, you realise

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that some people say you are lying. He said, I know Archbishop. That is

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exactly why we need an investigation. He said we need an

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investigation for the truth to come out. But it was the papal Nuncio

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that used the term apostolic visitation. That is investigation

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where a representative of the Pope is sent to investigate an issue or

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dioceses. What would be a bit ridiculous about this situation is

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if the person investigating St Andrews and Edinburgh is the person

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who is the new Archbishop. An apostolic visitation bring summary

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from the outside in to look at event. Stephen McGinty, what you

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make of this? Were you expecting something more radical? No, my

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feeling is that in a perfect world the ship he and investigation, we

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should get to the bottom of how the cardinal has behaved as last 20

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years. It will be of great benefit to the Catholics of Scotland and

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also the people of Scotland, if the actual facts came out. Now,

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Catherine has done a good job in bringing this story to light. I

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think we would also benefit from dying chronologically when did this

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begin, who did it involve, what happened and for how long. The thing

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is, it is not really how the Catholic Church usually handled

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these matters. My feeling from the beginning was that they would not be

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a formal investigation, as we understand it. John Haldane, surely

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it is not just a matter of the procedures of the Catholic Church?

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The impression one, that they were trying to put out a message that

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they were changing. To then do nothing, if that is indeed what they

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are going to do, could provoke a crisis for them. There are a number

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of things in what has been said so far. I do not see the force of

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this, we want this, we want this and so one. This is a crisis inflicted

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on an institution, the Scottish Catholic Church, in particular. It

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has a problem announcer has to address that Rob Lunn. It is true

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that Rome has an interest in this. At an early stage, I raised the

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possibility of an apostolic visitation. As Catherine says quite

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rightly, that would be where somebody is sent in as a

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representative of somebody from an English-speaking country. I thought

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it was unlikely that would happen and it became pretty clear that that

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was not going to happen. I don't think that is necessarily the wrong

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decision. There does seem to be some confusion with the idea that it

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would now fault of the person who has been appointed, or nominated as

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Archbishop of Saint Anne Bruce and Edinburgh, to conduct that apostolic

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visitation. That is the confusion. It would not be done by a domestic

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officer, as it were, of the Church in that respect. I do not believe

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there is going to be an apostolic visitation. It would not be in the

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gift of that Nuncio to recommend such. My understanding of this is

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that it derives from a single conversation between one of the

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accusers and the Nuncio, not the other group. There is a difference

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of view between the original accusers in this area. But there's

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not going to be an apostolic visitation. What there is is a clear

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need for the nominated appointees to look at the circumstances of this. I

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think this is a very delicate matter because there are a lot of confused

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and wounded people. I think your work slowly and try to engage these

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matters. The fact that Leo Cushley said today he had little knowledge

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of Keith O'Brien's situation other than what he had read in the

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newspapers, and that he had not discussed the matter with the Pope,

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does not give the impression that this is gained be a major priority.

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The right-hander is not appear to know what the left hand is doing. If

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we are saying that was never going to be an apostolic visitation, why

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did the Nuncio say that they would be? It is another example of saying

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one thing and doing another. What we are really asking for is a bit of

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transparency and a bit of openness. People are talked about forgiveness

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and moving on. What is your response to John Haldane's pond, who is we?

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think we represent the majority of thinking, questioning Catholics in

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this country. The Catholic Church is very quick to scrutinise other

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people within society and it is not except screech me back. That does

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not really wash in modern society so I think we all have a right to

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question when we're talking about issues of abuse. And we're talking

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about issues of corruption as well. It is not good enough for the

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Catholic Church to say go away and mind your own business. What do you

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think they should do? I think Leo Cushley is a talented diplomat, he

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has worked in some difficult areas. I think the best way to do it would

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be... But we are not facing a legal situation, it is more of a public

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relations situation. I think using a dilemma. When he continues to speak

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to the individuals involved and find out how much information they want

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released publicly. They have to wait to frame some kind of report and

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explain to the people of Scotland what has happened under Cardinal

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Keith O'Brien's rule. Can I quote something that you said in one of

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your articles which I'm curious about? It was the article where you

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talked about the possibility of an investigation. You said, C give this

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that macro figures in Rome say the apostolic visitation is dealing with

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the more general accusations of moral Malay sweeping the church in

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Scotland. What does that mean? Are there more general accusations of

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moral malaise? I think there are certainly accusations of moral

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malaise and I think there have been a number of stories that have

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followed the story of Keith O'Brien. Talk of gay cabals and gay cliques

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in the Glasgow dioceses and the Edinburgh dioceses. The problem is

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that some of this develops into slogans, it is not really about gay

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or straight, as one person said to me, it is about being open. I'm

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working on the story this week where another priest has come forward to

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talk about the effect of the institutional corruption on his

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life. I think there are many people who are keeping silent within the

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catholic church because that is the date condition of acceptance.

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Haldane, you explain the procedures involved in this do you think they

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need to something a bit more than just say, this is what our

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procedures are, move along now, nothing to say? I do not think that

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they should feel pressured by this demand that somehow Scotland

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deserves to know and so on. I think that is just irresponsible. If one

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has a serious interest, not just a journalistic appetite for exposure,

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in why the dioceses has run into trouble and a series interest in

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seeing that remedied, then one has to be attentive to what the ways of

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doing that might be. This demand for transparency is not serious, it is

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not responsible. The responsible thing is to look at the situation

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and see what you can do. You keep talking about technical procedures.

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I understand the point you're making within the archdioceses but there's

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also an image problem that the Catholic Church has in Scotland.

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did not use the phrase technical procedure. This man is a driven man

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of good judgement and good education. He is coming into a

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situation which is clearly very difficult about which he knows

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relatively little and will have to inform himself. A wise person is not

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going to rush into action. He will hear all sorts of things being said

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from different quarters and will have to reserve his judgement. It

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would be wrong to respond to the first thing said to him. He will

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have to listen to different people have to say and be aware of the fact

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that there are many bruised and injured people in all of this and

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act which her team trying to deal with. But it may not be that the

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best way of dealing with it is to rush into giving statements. If I

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had a criticism of the Catholic Church in recent times it seems to

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me it has been too easily adopt it in the person of both Cardinal

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O'Brien and Cardinal winning. In role has been offered to it, the

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idea of being a voice to the nation and so on. I do not think six months

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down the line is rushing things. There are many victims. I agree with

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that. Stephen McGinty, this hypocrisy might go, but the attitude

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regarding homosexuality is not likely to change. It is not likely

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that the new archbishop will come in with a different view on the

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churches teaching. It is not up to him. Absolutely. The faith is set

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down. There is no sign of anything like that changing soon. Thank you.

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Scottish ministers have descended on Shetland to hold a cabinet meeting

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and persuade Islanders that they really care. It is just a few weeks

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since council leaders from Orkney and Shetland Islands asked for more

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powers. Tomorrow we will find out if any move has been made in that

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direction. The Shetland Islands may be part of

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Scotland but they have always had their own distinct identity.

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Cultural traditions are strong here. They have got their own flag. They

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have got their own connections with their Nordic neighbours. And one of

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the jewels in Shetlandpos-macro is this terminal tilt in the 1970s. Now

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the Shetlands and Scotland's other island communities are asking for

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greater Government recognition whatever the outcome of the

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independence referendum. Their campaign has called for control of

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local sea bed areas, more help to develop renewable energy, and

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increased powers over spending. are looking for devolutionary powers

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that can be sensibly used to promote overall economy and the wider

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economy in Scotland and the UK. Scottish Cabinet arrived in Shetland

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today. We do not have a cabinet for Edinburgh. It is for the whole

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country. We are positive about community calls for more control.

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The whole basis of the movement for a national self-determination is to

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get more control. The Western Isles also have a distinct identity. It is

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the heart of the Gaelic speaking community. Top of their agenda is

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help to realise the Green energy potential. The most crucial thing

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has been the need for energy. The power to put that connection into

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place. We have interconnects -- we people have suggested fighting for

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home rule. While that is probably not on the cards in the near future

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they and their fellow islanders say they will fight on for greater

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recognition. A short while ago the Shetland MSP

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Tavish Scott came into our lyric studio, and the leader of Comhairle

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nan Eilean Siar, Angus Campbell, came into our Stornoway studio. I

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started by asking about home rule for Shetland. We have lost powers

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since the 1970s. It has got worse under devolution, particularly in

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the last six years. We can look at the model of the isle of man. I have

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talked to people in different island groups about how they run their own

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affairs. What I am clear about is that there are no barriers as to how

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we build stronger islands and serve our people more effectively than we

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are doing at the moment. Is there a suggestion that Shetland would

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consider its options if Scotland should vote for independence? It

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might stay in the UK? Or it may become a Crown dependency? Shetland

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will not be told what is going to happen by Edinburgh or London. It is

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a fascinating time. Are you suggesting that a referendum

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decision would not be binding on Shetland? I do not think Scotland

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will vote yes at all. Shetland and the other islands will carefully

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consider what they want out of this constitutional debate we are all

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having. If we do not say anything about our we will be absolutely

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ignored in Edinburgh and in London. This is a good chance for the

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islands to forward with ideas about our future. Angus Campbell, is the

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view the same at their, that people are not quite sure if Scotland

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becomes independent where they would want to be? Or is it is more

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straightforward? You just want the local council to be given more power

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and attention. It is not a matter of more power or attention. This type

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of debate only comes along once-in-a-lifetime. We have clear

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areas where we believe devolving powers back into the islands would

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give Scotland or the UK are better place as well. It is not just that

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you are going to meet the Scottish Government tomorrow. You would like

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the opponents of independents to also say what their proposals are

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for the islands. Absolutely. We are putting forward our thoughts as they

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Islands group 's. By being able to do things differently. We have seen

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examples across Europe and in the UK of how this can be achieved. We want

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to hear from both sides of the arguments, how they will support us

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in that. If we do not ask these questions we are missing an

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opportunity. Would you go along with the suggestion that you could become

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a Crown dependency? Anything like that would have to depend what was

:24:16.:24:21.

in it for the islands will stop if it came out of the discussions that

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there was an offer of Crown dependency that gave us clear

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advantages then it would inform the debate as to where we would go in

:24:28.:24:33.

our fault and that the tablets on outcome. I am not sure where that

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offer could come from. Presumably it would have to come from the British

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Government rather than the Scottish Government. That is probably true. I

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agree with the importance of the islands setting forth what they want

:24:47.:24:57.
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from this debate. I do not think there are any great barriers to

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taking on a range of hours. The islands have clear ideas about what

:25:13.:25:21.

we would like. We have lost powers such as police and fire in the last

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12 years. Now we have the desire to look at what we have got and ask how

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we can serve our people better. You seem to be suggesting that the do

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not just have the lovely scenery, but a big stick. When you said it is

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not your oil, Alex, it is ours, what do you mean? The SNP needs to

:25:52.:26:02.
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understand. A lot of oil is landed to the west of Shetlands. We have

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leverage in that. Power was given to our council in the 1970s by our UK

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Government at the time. That Government needed as. The Scottish

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Government will find that they also do. You are being coy what are you

:26:36.:26:46.
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saying? Are you saying that this is Shetland's, not Scotland's? .

:26:54.:26:59.

is a legal opinion which says there is a decent argument about where

:26:59.:27:06.

that oil dividing line is. What we do have in this debate about

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Scotland's resources is some leverage. The oil industry is

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looking closely at Shetland. Angus Campbell, you are keen on control

:27:21.:27:28.

over the sea bed around the Western Isles. Presumably you are thinking

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about renewable energy. What advantage would that give you?

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Renewable energy is huge for the Outer Hebrides. We have the best

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resources in Europe. All the money for the rental of the sea bed going

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down to the Crown estate. We have argued that that should feed back

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into the local community. It feeds into other things such as

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:28:11.:28:12.

agriculture and fisheries. Is it's just a rental you want? Shetland has

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been levying money on every arrow oil. If you had control over the sea

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bed you would be doing the equivalent of taking a levy. We want

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much more involvement in the positioning and planning of these

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renewable energy sources. Other issues such as fishing should come

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back to these islands. I understand you are likely to be offered a

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minister deal working group tomorrow. There's that any use to

:28:47.:28:57.
:28:57.:29:02.

you rest and Mark -- used to you? Yes. That shows that the case we

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have been making is a very good one. Now we hope the Westminster

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Government will join. Time for a quick look at tomorrow's front

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pages. The Scotsman leads on the story we were talking about earlier.

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The new Archbishop vows to heal church wounds, says the headline.

:29:27.:29:37.
:29:37.:29:47.

The Telegraph has their baby boy destined to become King George II.

:29:47.:29:57.
:29:57.:29:58.

destined to become King George II. -- that is offer now.

:29:58.:30:08.
:30:08.:30:08.

We are still in the midst of this warm spell. Northern Ireland and

:30:08.:30:15.

Scotland could have heal and gusty winds. Temperature is nothing

:30:15.:30:25.
:30:25.:30:36.

spectacular. Towards the South there will be more sunshine around. The

:30:36.:30:46.
:30:46.:30:47.

South West of the country will be fresher. Showers are more likely

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