24/07/2013 Newsnight Scotland


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we for St more BBC Scotland attained confirmation on the day that his


six-hour set as Archbishop of Edinburgh was announced. This report


contains some flash photography from the start. As you can see, I have


brought my homework with me. Does this man have a road map to revive


the catholic church in Scotland? His name is Leo casually. -- Leo


Cushley. He is seen to be Archbishop on Saint Andrews and Edinburgh. I


was very surprised and even shock. Although this has been talked about


in Scotland for a number of months I was still quite some rise to known


that they were releasing me from the diplomatic service to come here as


the Archbishop of St Andrews and Edinburgh. It was, I must say, a bit


of a shock, because I have been training for something else for the


last 20 years. He comes to lead the flock still scandalised and shamed


by the revelations around the personal life of the man he


succeeds. The other half of the paper is adopted lying and that is


where you write in the name of the cardinal who you think will be Pope.


In February, Pete O'Brien's world fell apart. He first denied and then


agreed... It was further... Where are we now discovering the full


circumstance of the cardinals read -- resignation and the nature of the


behaviour that led to it? Pope Francis has yet to order an


investigation. Catherine Deveney was the journalist who broke the story.


I know that the Catholic Church are continuing to cover up because of


the stories that have come forward to me and until they stop trying to


cover up the wrong thing and do the right thing, the Catholic Church


will never move forward. Monsignor Leo Cushley says he is ready to


investigate if that's to do so by the Pope. I intend to work very hard


to make sure that we get this business sorted out. Monsignor Leo


Cushley and his brother bishops have many challenges ahead, including


falling congregations and an ageing priesthood, but closing the door on


the cardinal O'Brien scandal will surely be among the top priorities


both for the Vatican and the Scottish hierarchy. High end joined


by Catherine Devaney who broke the story. John Haldane is Professor of


moral philosophy at Saint Andrew 's University and adviser to the


Vatican, and Stephen McGinty is the biographer of Cardinal Winning. You


were hoping and you had been assured, or the people you were


talking to borrow short, they would be an enquiry. That is absolutely


right and what is sad about this is it there's another example of the


Catholic Church doing one thing and saying another. An apostolic


visitation was promised to one of the complainants against Cardinal


Keith O'Brien. When somebody has already been heard by the church, to


bring them to a Private meeting and promised them an apostolic


visitation and then back out of it is bad behaviour in anybody's book.


Was it not always the case that the investigation was always going to be


this apostolic visitation, as they call it, and that it was always


gained be left up to whoever was appointed to replace Keith O'Brien?


No, in fact there was a great jeweller pressure put on for many


months to ask for an investigation. The complainants had been asking for


some action to be taken. At the meeting with the papal Nuncio, one


of the complainants, the papal muncher said to him, you realise


that some people say you are lying. He said, I know Archbishop. That is


exactly why we need an investigation. He said we need an


investigation for the truth to come out. But it was the papal Nuncio


that used the term apostolic visitation. That is investigation


where a representative of the Pope is sent to investigate an issue or


dioceses. What would be a bit ridiculous about this situation is


if the person investigating St Andrews and Edinburgh is the person


who is the new Archbishop. An apostolic visitation bring summary


from the outside in to look at event. Stephen McGinty, what you


make of this? Were you expecting something more radical? No, my


feeling is that in a perfect world the ship he and investigation, we


should get to the bottom of how the cardinal has behaved as last 20


years. It will be of great benefit to the Catholics of Scotland and


also the people of Scotland, if the actual facts came out. Now,


Catherine has done a good job in bringing this story to light. I


think we would also benefit from dying chronologically when did this


begin, who did it involve, what happened and for how long. The thing


is, it is not really how the Catholic Church usually handled


these matters. My feeling from the beginning was that they would not be


a formal investigation, as we understand it. John Haldane, surely


it is not just a matter of the procedures of the Catholic Church?


The impression one, that they were trying to put out a message that


they were changing. To then do nothing, if that is indeed what they


are going to do, could provoke a crisis for them. There are a number


of things in what has been said so far. I do not see the force of


this, we want this, we want this and so one. This is a crisis inflicted


on an institution, the Scottish Catholic Church, in particular. It


has a problem announcer has to address that Rob Lunn. It is true


that Rome has an interest in this. At an early stage, I raised the


possibility of an apostolic visitation. As Catherine says quite


rightly, that would be where somebody is sent in as a


representative of somebody from an English-speaking country. I thought


it was unlikely that would happen and it became pretty clear that that


was not going to happen. I don't think that is necessarily the wrong


decision. There does seem to be some confusion with the idea that it


would now fault of the person who has been appointed, or nominated as


Archbishop of Saint Anne Bruce and Edinburgh, to conduct that apostolic


visitation. That is the confusion. It would not be done by a domestic


officer, as it were, of the Church in that respect. I do not believe


there is going to be an apostolic visitation. It would not be in the


gift of that Nuncio to recommend such. My understanding of this is


that it derives from a single conversation between one of the


accusers and the Nuncio, not the other group. There is a difference


of view between the original accusers in this area. But there's


not going to be an apostolic visitation. What there is is a clear


need for the nominated appointees to look at the circumstances of this. I


think this is a very delicate matter because there are a lot of confused


and wounded people. I think your work slowly and try to engage these


matters. The fact that Leo Cushley said today he had little knowledge


of Keith O'Brien's situation other than what he had read in the


newspapers, and that he had not discussed the matter with the Pope,


does not give the impression that this is gained be a major priority.


The right-hander is not appear to know what the left hand is doing. If


we are saying that was never going to be an apostolic visitation, why


did the Nuncio say that they would be? It is another example of saying


one thing and doing another. What we are really asking for is a bit of


transparency and a bit of openness. People are talked about forgiveness


and moving on. What is your response to John Haldane's pond, who is we?


think we represent the majority of thinking, questioning Catholics in


this country. The Catholic Church is very quick to scrutinise other


people within society and it is not except screech me back. That does


not really wash in modern society so I think we all have a right to


question when we're talking about issues of abuse. And we're talking


about issues of corruption as well. It is not good enough for the


Catholic Church to say go away and mind your own business. What do you


think they should do? I think Leo Cushley is a talented diplomat, he


has worked in some difficult areas. I think the best way to do it would


be... But we are not facing a legal situation, it is more of a public


relations situation. I think using a dilemma. When he continues to speak


to the individuals involved and find out how much information they want


released publicly. They have to wait to frame some kind of report and


explain to the people of Scotland what has happened under Cardinal


Keith O'Brien's rule. Can I quote something that you said in one of


your articles which I'm curious about? It was the article where you


talked about the possibility of an investigation. You said, C give this


that macro figures in Rome say the apostolic visitation is dealing with


the more general accusations of moral Malay sweeping the church in


Scotland. What does that mean? Are there more general accusations of


moral malaise? I think there are certainly accusations of moral


malaise and I think there have been a number of stories that have


followed the story of Keith O'Brien. Talk of gay cabals and gay cliques


in the Glasgow dioceses and the Edinburgh dioceses. The problem is


that some of this develops into slogans, it is not really about gay


or straight, as one person said to me, it is about being open. I'm


working on the story this week where another priest has come forward to


talk about the effect of the institutional corruption on his


life. I think there are many people who are keeping silent within the


catholic church because that is the date condition of acceptance.


Haldane, you explain the procedures involved in this do you think they


need to something a bit more than just say, this is what our


procedures are, move along now, nothing to say? I do not think that


they should feel pressured by this demand that somehow Scotland


deserves to know and so on. I think that is just irresponsible. If one


has a serious interest, not just a journalistic appetite for exposure,


in why the dioceses has run into trouble and a series interest in


seeing that remedied, then one has to be attentive to what the ways of


doing that might be. This demand for transparency is not serious, it is


not responsible. The responsible thing is to look at the situation


and see what you can do. You keep talking about technical procedures.


I understand the point you're making within the archdioceses but there's


also an image problem that the Catholic Church has in Scotland.


did not use the phrase technical procedure. This man is a driven man


of good judgement and good education. He is coming into a


situation which is clearly very difficult about which he knows


relatively little and will have to inform himself. A wise person is not


going to rush into action. He will hear all sorts of things being said


from different quarters and will have to reserve his judgement. It


would be wrong to respond to the first thing said to him. He will


have to listen to different people have to say and be aware of the fact


that there are many bruised and injured people in all of this and


act which her team trying to deal with. But it may not be that the


best way of dealing with it is to rush into giving statements. If I


had a criticism of the Catholic Church in recent times it seems to


me it has been too easily adopt it in the person of both Cardinal


O'Brien and Cardinal winning. In role has been offered to it, the


idea of being a voice to the nation and so on. I do not think six months


down the line is rushing things. There are many victims. I agree with


that. Stephen McGinty, this hypocrisy might go, but the attitude


regarding homosexuality is not likely to change. It is not likely


that the new archbishop will come in with a different view on the


churches teaching. It is not up to him. Absolutely. The faith is set


down. There is no sign of anything like that changing soon. Thank you.


Scottish ministers have descended on Shetland to hold a cabinet meeting


and persuade Islanders that they really care. It is just a few weeks


since council leaders from Orkney and Shetland Islands asked for more


powers. Tomorrow we will find out if any move has been made in that


direction. The Shetland Islands may be part of


Scotland but they have always had their own distinct identity.


Cultural traditions are strong here. They have got their own flag. They


have got their own connections with their Nordic neighbours. And one of


the jewels in Shetlandpos-macro is this terminal tilt in the 1970s. Now


the Shetlands and Scotland's other island communities are asking for


greater Government recognition whatever the outcome of the


independence referendum. Their campaign has called for control of


local sea bed areas, more help to develop renewable energy, and


increased powers over spending. are looking for devolutionary powers


that can be sensibly used to promote overall economy and the wider


economy in Scotland and the UK. Scottish Cabinet arrived in Shetland


today. We do not have a cabinet for Edinburgh. It is for the whole


country. We are positive about community calls for more control.


The whole basis of the movement for a national self-determination is to


get more control. The Western Isles also have a distinct identity. It is


the heart of the Gaelic speaking community. Top of their agenda is


help to realise the Green energy potential. The most crucial thing


has been the need for energy. The power to put that connection into


place. We have interconnects -- we people have suggested fighting for


home rule. While that is probably not on the cards in the near future


they and their fellow islanders say they will fight on for greater


recognition. A short while ago the Shetland MSP


Tavish Scott came into our lyric studio, and the leader of Comhairle


nan Eilean Siar, Angus Campbell, came into our Stornoway studio. I


started by asking about home rule for Shetland. We have lost powers


since the 1970s. It has got worse under devolution, particularly in


the last six years. We can look at the model of the isle of man. I have


talked to people in different island groups about how they run their own


affairs. What I am clear about is that there are no barriers as to how


we build stronger islands and serve our people more effectively than we


are doing at the moment. Is there a suggestion that Shetland would


consider its options if Scotland should vote for independence? It


might stay in the UK? Or it may become a Crown dependency? Shetland


will not be told what is going to happen by Edinburgh or London. It is


a fascinating time. Are you suggesting that a referendum


decision would not be binding on Shetland? I do not think Scotland


will vote yes at all. Shetland and the other islands will carefully


consider what they want out of this constitutional debate we are all


having. If we do not say anything about our we will be absolutely


ignored in Edinburgh and in London. This is a good chance for the


islands to forward with ideas about our future. Angus Campbell, is the


view the same at their, that people are not quite sure if Scotland


becomes independent where they would want to be? Or is it is more


straightforward? You just want the local council to be given more power


and attention. It is not a matter of more power or attention. This type


of debate only comes along once-in-a-lifetime. We have clear


areas where we believe devolving powers back into the islands would


give Scotland or the UK are better place as well. It is not just that


you are going to meet the Scottish Government tomorrow. You would like


the opponents of independents to also say what their proposals are


for the islands. Absolutely. We are putting forward our thoughts as they


Islands group 's. By being able to do things differently. We have seen


examples across Europe and in the UK of how this can be achieved. We want


to hear from both sides of the arguments, how they will support us


in that. If we do not ask these questions we are missing an


opportunity. Would you go along with the suggestion that you could become


a Crown dependency? Anything like that would have to depend what was


in it for the islands will stop if it came out of the discussions that


there was an offer of Crown dependency that gave us clear


advantages then it would inform the debate as to where we would go in


our fault and that the tablets on outcome. I am not sure where that


offer could come from. Presumably it would have to come from the British


Government rather than the Scottish Government. That is probably true. I


agree with the importance of the islands setting forth what they want


from this debate. I do not think there are any great barriers to


taking on a range of hours. The islands have clear ideas about what


we would like. We have lost powers such as police and fire in the last


12 years. Now we have the desire to look at what we have got and ask how


we can serve our people better. You seem to be suggesting that the do


not just have the lovely scenery, but a big stick. When you said it is


not your oil, Alex, it is ours, what do you mean? The SNP needs to


understand. A lot of oil is landed to the west of Shetlands. We have


leverage in that. Power was given to our council in the 1970s by our UK


Government at the time. That Government needed as. The Scottish


Government will find that they also do. You are being coy what are you


saying? Are you saying that this is Shetland's, not Scotland's? .


is a legal opinion which says there is a decent argument about where


that oil dividing line is. What we do have in this debate about


Scotland's resources is some leverage. The oil industry is


looking closely at Shetland. Angus Campbell, you are keen on control


over the sea bed around the Western Isles. Presumably you are thinking


about renewable energy. What advantage would that give you?


Renewable energy is huge for the Outer Hebrides. We have the best


resources in Europe. All the money for the rental of the sea bed going


down to the Crown estate. We have argued that that should feed back


into the local community. It feeds into other things such as


agriculture and fisheries. Is it's just a rental you want? Shetland has


been levying money on every arrow oil. If you had control over the sea


bed you would be doing the equivalent of taking a levy. We want


much more involvement in the positioning and planning of these


renewable energy sources. Other issues such as fishing should come


back to these islands. I understand you are likely to be offered a


minister deal working group tomorrow. There's that any use to


you rest and Mark -- used to you? Yes. That shows that the case we


have been making is a very good one. Now we hope the Westminster


Government will join. Time for a quick look at tomorrow's front


pages. The Scotsman leads on the story we were talking about earlier.


The new Archbishop vows to heal church wounds, says the headline.


The Telegraph has their baby boy destined to become King George II.


destined to become King George II. -- that is offer now.


We are still in the midst of this warm spell. Northern Ireland and


Scotland could have heal and gusty winds. Temperature is nothing


spectacular. Towards the South there will be more sunshine around. The


South West of the country will be fresher. Showers are more likely


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