05/12/2013 Newsnight Scotland

man who suffered so much for freedom and justice, and the man who threw

his dignity and through his triumph inspired millions.

Welcome to Newsnight Scotland. We will recall the part Glasgow played

in the Mandela story. Also tonight, the Chancellor sets out more of his

plans. If an economic recovery is really under way, are his critics

merely carping? People across the world have been

paying tribute to Nelson Mandela after his death was announced

tonight. Here in Scotland, he has been remembered as an inspirational

figure in the fight against apartheid, and for his memorable

visits to the country. He is also recognised for his diplomatic

efforts that led to the Lockerbie trial. We have been looking back at

his life. The man that the world has been

waiting to see. His first public appearance in nearly three decades.

# Nelson Mandela! Bring him back home to say waiter.

Walking out of prison, the first steps to create the rainbow nation.

Nelson Mandela spent most of his life trying to end white majority

rule with many of his supporters miles away in Scotland. I became

involved in the 1960s and we establish the Scottish wing of the

anti-apartheid movement in the 1970s. This week to uprising sparked

protests throughout the world. -- the Soweto uprising. We coordinated

local groups of the anti-apartheid movement. It took off from there. At

the time it was not fashionable to be associated with him, because he

was widely regarded as an reported in the media as a terrorist. People

did not want to associate with him. Despite that, the fight continued.

In a brave move, Glasgow granted Mandela freedom of the city in 1981.

Do you feel that will add weight to your critics who say he should never

have been recommended for freedom of the city in the first place? We

emphasise the place in which Nelson Mandela stands and the difficulty

for him and his country. When I met Mandela in 1993, I was able to ask

him if he knew what had happened in Glasgow. He does not get easy access

to the news from Robben Island. But he confirmed that there was a

grapevine and through the grapevine, they received these

snippets of information and at the time he did know that he was awarded

the freedom of the city of Glasgow. It kept him and his fellow prisoners

going. And Glasgow kept up the pressure. In 1986, Royal exchange

Square, home of the South African consulate, had a name change. It was

the very first city that offered its freedom to Nelson Mandela. It is the

only city where the Lord Provost galvanised 5000 mayors throughout

the world to get him his freedom. Freedom which he got in 1990. Later

he was able to recognise the freedom the city had bestowed on him.

Freedom in the country of our birth was denied. A city 6000 miles away

and as renowned as Glasgow refused to accept the legitimacy of the

apartheid system. And declared us to be free. Then he became involved in

Scottish affairs. He was extremely active in a lot of international

matters, and over the Libya trial that was one example that he did

help to press the Libyans to try and get the trial in our country and it

only happened when he gave it a real post. In 2002, Mandela visited the

Lockerbie bomber and explained why he got involved. There was a

deadlock and die intervened because I was thinking firstly of the

relatives of the victims. They must see justice done. But justice done

according to the fundamental principles of the law. Mandela lived

to see justice done in his own country and he ensured a lasting

peace. A remarkable achievement for those who first backed him. It was

always a concern when you are campaigning and he was in prison and

so on. Would he live up to the legend that perhaps we had made him,

but in fact of course he did. If anything he was greater than what he

had been imagined. My colleague knew Nelson Mandela.

Your first contact with him was when he voted in his first election. It

is certainly the most memorable contact. That was in 1994. I was

there to help cover the election. Why was based in Durban, probably

one of the least favoured spots. -- I was based. Other reporters were

sent to Johannesburg and Cape Town. Mandela decided at the last minute

that rather than voting in one of the big cities, the better-known

places, he would vote in a little place outside Durban as an act of

reconciliation, because there was something close to a civil war going

on with the Zulus and with his ANC. This was an act of conciliation. It

meant that he voted in front of only a few hundred people and I was one

of the journalists who happened to be close enough to be able to get

there. Guided the commentary. I watched him stand on the Veranda of

this primary School, lean forward and drop his ballot into the box,

for the first time in his long life that he had ever voted. I saw him do

that. You chased him down when Margaret Thatcher left office. When

she stepped down, there was a call for reporters around the world to go

and garner opinion of people who knew her. I wondered whether Nelson

Mandela would be kind to her, because she did not really support

him at all, in fact she regarded him as a terrorist. They found him in

the hotel in Swaziland and asked if we could see him. He came down from

his room after 20 minutes. He was a mischievous man. He came down with a

twinkle in his eye, shook hands and said, when the BBC calls, everyone

must come. When he came to Glasgow, US that -- you were there as well

and he recognised you. Yes, he came in 1993 and he performed the Mandela

shuffle on the stage when he received freedom of the city and the

crowd loved it. I had been following him around South Africa, waiting at

the end of runways, and he had seen me in the crowd quite a lot. I was

astonished. I got out my microphone and welcomed him to Glasgow and he

came over and said how nice it was to see me again. An astonishing

memory for faces. Thank you. The rather more mundane use of the day

is the Chancellor's Autumn Statement. The debate at Westminster

may be focused on the general election, as well as how best to

improve the economy, but in Scotland there is a more urgent electoral

question. Anything a politician says will affect the referendum campaign.

First, Huw Williams reports. Autumn Statement, the Chancellor of the

extent. George Osborne told the story of a plan that is working but

the job not yet done. Labour accused him of being out of touch and

tinkering with the edges. The changes to council tax and benefits

will be in force in Scotland when they come into force, while other

things will not affect us directly but will affect the cash that comes

to Scotland. Westminster says it is giving Holyrood an extra ?308

million over the next two years for current spending and capital

projects. It will mean making cuts of less than 0.2% at the time when

most UK departments are having to save more than 1%. But the Scottish

Government says that the announcement today does not make up

for earlier cuts and shows the damaging consequences of staying in

the United Kingdom. There will be almost ?11 million to set up a

centre for innovation at the University of Edinburgh to honour

Nobel prizewinner Professor Peter Higgs. We commit to building a new

centre in his name at Edinburgh University because science is a

personal priority. Nobody is willing to say what happens to that

innovation centre if Scotland votes for independence by the time it is

due to open in 2018. The department for business, innovation and skills

said the UK Government is not contingency planning. There are also

cheaper loans for Scottish councils and includes Glasgow and Clyde

Valley in the city Deal initiative designed to boost building projects.

And ?10 million promised for infrastructure building projects in

Shetland. Duty on petrol will be frozen. A rise of tuppence per litre

plan for next year will be scrapped. I congratulate the Chancellor on the

fuel duty frees which will save motorists 20p per litre compared to

Labour's plans. But will he confirm that the motorists on the islands in

my constituency and promote parts of the mainland that they will save 25p

per litre compared to what the Labour Party wants to charge them?

He draws particular attention to the rural fuel rebate which is an

important scheme we have introduced for the remote islands in Scotland

and other parts of the United Kingdom. We would like the scheme to

be extended more widely but we are constrained by European Union rules,

which we are currently challenging. Am glad it is benefiting some of his

constituents. The Chancellor said they should focus on deep new

figures and the amount of money raised from North Sea oil and gas.

Could you tell me what the office of budget responsible at it is

forecasting in relation to North Sea oil revenues in next few years

because some people believe it is an unlimited source of funding. They

forecast today are for the whole of the UK. All in receipts are 3.5 and

in pounds in 2016. This compares to the ?6.8 billion that the SNP

Scottish government had been basing their premises upon in their claims

for independence. That is twice as much as the independent assessment.

It is another example of how they are not being straight with people

about the facts around independence. Given this Chancellor

has failed on every target he has set himself, how can we possibly

trust him on anything he has said today, including oil forecast? So,

how can the numbers be so vertically different. It depends on oil

prices, gas prices, these are very uncertain. The office of budget

responsible to have taken the view that they are likely to fall over

the next five years whereas others think not. They think they will rise

a bit. And then, we have the difference of production and capital

investment is very high at the moment. Will it continue? All these

determing taxable income and therefore, the tax receipts. That is

the trouble with statistics, you can prove more less whatever you want

to, depending on what you do and don't take into account and of

course, there is politics at play here as well as economics. The

Scottish Government's finance secretary spoke to us. She paid

tribute first to Nelson Mandela. This is terribly sad news, this

evening. All of our lives have been between transformed by the

contribution Nelson Mandela made. The inspiration that he has been to

create a society where every individual is treated equally and

fairly has been so striking in all of our lives. I do think anybody who

has lived through the years of his incarceration and his release and

his leadership in the world can feel anything other than an enormous debt

of gratitude for a life that has utterly transformed all of our

lives. Now, the Chancellor's Autumn Statement, your budget has been

increased, hasn't it? You must be delighted. It is always welcome to

have additional resources at our disposal but we have to see them in

the context of the changes made in the last five years and the Scottish

budget has fallen by 10% in real terms. Yes, there are additional

resources that have been allocated that it is against a backdrop of

significant reduction in public expenditure. Which presumably you

would support. I never understand what you are saying. As I understand

it, the SNP are not like Labour, you are not saying the whole deficit

strategy was wrong, so when you say this is terrible cos our budget has

been cut, you are not seriously suggesting that George Osborne

should not have cut public spending or somehow Scotland should have an

exempt? we have had the reduction in capital spending, which of course is

used to support the development... So you support the current cuts but

not in capital spending? Economic cookies have been created I

reduction is in capital expenditure. What you have never been clear on is

that politically and intellectually, cute support -- you support in

cutting the current budget even if you don't support cutting the

capital budget. I don't think anyone can accuse me of being a supporter

of George Osborne. Where he has got his strategy and received from

has-been about reductions in capital expenditure and the invitations that

purse served for the economic difficulties we have faced as a

country. The Chancellor announced today that the level of ring,

additional to what he had planned in 2010, has been about ?200 billion.

That, essentially, is a number that is paying for the price of failure

of his economic strategy. If he had invested more capital expenditure in

2010, as we had argued he should do, we wouldn't have looked at all of

the economic heartache we have had other country in the intervening few

years. Aren't you glad the people he was turning his attention to today?

Britain looks to be recovering quite strongly, and if you believe the OBE

are, it will be to stable recovery and the point that George Osborne is

making is that people like you have moaned and complained at every step

of the way. You won't even stay -- say now, George Osborne was right to

pursue a deficit reduction strategy. Yet, he says it is demonstrably

working. George Osborne for the Mac strategy has not the economy back to

its pre-recession levels. Of course it hasn't. It is of recovery. Just

hear me out, Gordon. It has been delivered in Canada, Germany, Japan.

It has not been delivered in the UK. It has not been delivered in Italy.

These are examples and the fact that other countries have got their

economies back into prerecession levels of act to video demonstrates

that by taking the investment approach... No, it demonstrates that

the debt was bigger. George Osborne wasn't response will for that. What

he is not possible for is this a fix of our economic strategy. -- the

success of our comic strategy. He has had to borrow more money than

expected. So, do give him no credit at all? the point I am making is if

his strategy had been successful, he would not have had to borrow an

extra 200 DM pounds to deal with the cost of failure. If he had just

changed the balance of his approach in 2010 and sustained the investment

in capital expenditure, we would not have seen the decline in Echo man

Mick -- economic opportunity that we have seen in Scotland. You said the

things he said were irrelevant. no, I said there was room for the

Chancellor. I can remember our interviews very clearly. I was

arguing for an extra one billion pounds in capital expenditure for

Scotland in a year. That is ten DM pounds proportionally accost the

United Kingdom. We would have seen a significant improvement in economic

conditions. The UK Government didn't want to join us tonight but I am

joined by Christine Jardine in Edinburgh, and Ian Murray -- Ian

Murray and Mark Macdonald. Starting with you, Ian Murray, I note you

wanted to say the couple of words about Nelson Mandela. I wanted to

save the world might has lost a statesman, and inspiration for young

and old. Although we have lost him hopefully, his legacy will live on

for generations to come and continue to inspire people over the next few

days. I studied Mandela's struggle at school and it was a great

inspiration to me. I think we, as politicians, or aspire to learn from

the way he conducted himself, particularly when he was released

from prison, the way he conducted himself to those who had committed a

wrong against him. I think it showed the measure of the man. Obviously,

he had been ill for some time. He is at peace now. Hopefully, his legacy

will continue and live on even stronger. It is difficult to find

words which meet the act trawl, the significance of the man. It is

difficult to find a figure in any part of the world in modern history,

in the 20th century, particularly, who's had such a positive influence

but was also very forgiving, had a great deal of humility and was

simply looked up to by everyone. Back to the Autumn Statement. Ian

Murray, your problem is the same as the SNP, that to adapt a joke that

Ed Balls me today, George Osborne hasn't just shut your fox, he has

skinned it and made a third hat out of it to keep him warm in the

winter. He has got the economy recovering and you said all the way

through and he has proved you wrong. The Chancellor spoke for 45 minutes

today. He didn't mention the cost of living crisis one. All his forecasts

have been downgraded. The UK economy is growing at 2.5 cent over the

course of the David... But the economy is recovering. You are not

prepared to admit that you opposed every single measure he took and he

can point to the figures and if we qualify them as they have been and

says there are question marks over the sustainability of it, we are on

our way to a sustainable recovery but you give him no credit for that

whatsoever. I have read this in detail and it states inflation will

still outstrip wages growth which means people will continue, over the

course of the next few years, to get poorer. People are feeling the

squeeze. Hang on, I don't want to get up down in this. That is

actually incorrect. The table you are referring to refers to changes

in the forecast, not the forecast themselves. If you look at page 84,

you will find that the forecast for disposable income show real term

increases. Do you think that is true, Christine Jardine? We have the

fastest growing economy in the G-7. We are on the road to recovery and

the Autumn Statement has some particular good news for Scotland,

the 308 million pounds excess pending you have already mentioned.

There will be invested elsewhere in the UK in childcare, free school

meals, steps we would like to see in Scotland. It is entirely up to the

Scottish Government how they prioritise spending this extra

money. I accept that. But they have already said... But the bottom line

is not only has John Swinney pointing out the economy is not

where it was, in 2008, at the start of the crisis, when you look at

these documents, they seem to be suggesting that even when the

economy recovers, it will not grow as fast in the future as it was

growing before 2008 because we have lost an entire segment of the

economy and the government, which you are speaking for, has done

nothing to address that. The government is now getting the, meet

back on track. It has taken a long time and George Osborne said today,

we are not completely recovered yet, there is still a long way to go

but what we do know is we have the fastest growing economy in the G-7.

There was investment in start-ups, we're going to be investing 45...

Mark Macdonald, can you answer that, that this all sounds a bit pathetic

comment you can change the subject and talk about living standards, but

what George Osborne is able to say, people are not stupid, people, by

and large, are prepared to accept a bit of pain if they think it is in

the interests of the economy as a whole and he can say it is painful,

but I said I was going to propose austerity in order to get economic

recovery, I have found got economic recovery, and the SNP and Labour and

my other opponents oppose me every step of the way. I think you are

overlooking the fact that there are a lot of people for whom the idea

that this has all worked splendidly will stick. Nobody is suggesting

that. The basic point was you said and Labour said, his economic

strategy was a disaster, that it would not make the economy recover,

that it would not lead to economic growth and it has led to a comic

grow. Of course I am not suggesting for one second that people in

society have not suffered through the last few years, that is not the

point I am making. The point George Osborne is making is heated what he

said he would do and he got what he said he would get at the end of it.

We now have the situation that if you are born in 1990, you have to

work until the age of 70. In Scotland, we will have the shortest

retirement period... We can talk about that in a minute if you like

but I don't see how that is woven to the question. You are suggesting we

are heading towards recovery and I am suggesting that George Osborne is

outlining a rather pessimistic vision of the future which doesn't

imply we are in a situation that is recovering, it rather implies things

are not getting better for people. Hang on, what did you make of that,

Ian Murray? What would you have done as an alternative? What if they

abolished the demographic problem by 23rd Dean? It is obviously a

difficult process in terms of what has happened in the retirement age.

Labour have always at retirement age should reflect longevity but it has

to be done fairly and sustainably. George Osborne has actually just

gone against his own pension reform bill by covering against the

independent body that he has set up through that pension reform bill to

look at longevity in terms of the pension age. It is this usually

confiscated scenario but I think he has rushed into making a decision

when in actual fact, the independent body he hasn't set up should be

looking at this. Why should younger people work till they are 70 while

short-term pensioners are being protected by practically everything

because George Osborne... I don't think that is how they will vote in

the future. We do know we have a demographic problem. And we have to

solve it. The retirement age, as it was, was designed for a time when we

always had a much shorter Wessex Agassi. -- shorter life expectancy.

Thank you. A quick look at the front pages. They are all leading with the

death of Nelson Mandela. That is all from me on the night at

Nelson Mandela died. Good night. Quite a spell of weather for Friday.

Winds will be lighter. It will be a