Browse content similar to 12/12/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Who would win? My money is on the All Blacks? The All Blacks would | :00:00. | 3:59:59 | |
win! They are petty unbeatable. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: Would | :00:00. | :00:13. | |
independence really mean your grocery bills would go up? The big | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
supermarkets have hinted they might, then that they might not. Are they | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
just after a tax break? And how do they cope in Ireland, | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
living on a land border between the UK and another EU state? | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
Good evening. Earlier this week, the ASDA and Morrisons supermarkets told | :00:30. | :00:31. | |
the Financial Times newspaper that independence might mean higher food | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
prices in Scotland. Today, the idea of a dearer Scottish loaf was | :00:36. | :00:38. | |
roundly dismissed by the First Minister, and some of those same | :00:39. | :00:41. | |
supermarket bosses have hastily insisted a change in the business | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
regime here could result in prices falling. So, would a border between | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
England and Scotland really have any effect on your bill at the checkout? | :00:48. | :00:56. | |
It was either a blatant scare story, or a realistic assessment of the | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
costs of change. We are used to the supermarkets promising us the lowest | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
possible prices so to hear them threatening that goods could cost | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
more struck a rather discordant note. Not least because it sounded | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
like an intervention in a decision that is for Scots' voters alone to | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
make. The argument went that the market would be smaller and | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
overheads would be higher in an independent Scotland. Would it be | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
fair to pass those charges on to consumers in the rest of the UK? Of | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
course, that is what happens at the moment. Writing today in the Herald, | :01:27. | :01:44. | |
Andy Clarke stresses the economies... And he is careful to | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
stress that he is not arguing on either side of the independence | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
debate. And that price rises are not inevitable in an independent | :01:53. | :01:59. | |
Scotland. Today, Morrisons, one of the major chains reported to have | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
been behind the original story, were keen to distance themselves from | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
accusations of meddling in Scottish politics. If the costs in Scotland | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
were to increase, say if taxes were increased, or if there was lots of | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
different and extra legislation which added cost to stores, we would | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
have to look at that in the context of an independent Scotland. | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
Likewise, the Scottish Government in an independent Scotland might choose | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
to make the costs of doing business much lower and, of course, | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
therefore, we would expect pressures on us to lower prices to reflect | :02:31. | :02:42. | |
that fact. Can I ask the First Minister what the Scottish position | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
is... At First Minister's Questions today, Alex Salmond was able to | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
dismiss the whole thing as a scare story. Far from food prices rising, | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
because of independence, the truth of the matter is they are rising | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
within the UK at the present moment. The latest stats on food price rises | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
for the year to October showed the prices in the UK are the fourth | :03:05. | :03:11. | |
highest in the OECD. One of the problems of any legislation, or any | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
difference... The reality is that already today under devolution and | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
regardless of the outcome of next September's referendum, the rules | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
and regulations in force here are becoming more and more different | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
from those that apply elsewhere in the United Kingdom. If you look at | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
devolution and look at the devolved country, there's been a series of | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
differences across the countries. So, we have had differential pricing | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
in terms of plastic bags. The Scottish Government has put a levy, | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
a health levy on large retailers who sell tobacco and alcohol, on the | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
rateable value, so that's increased the cost of doing business up here. | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
We have different regulations with alcohol in Scotland, tobacco in | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
terms of how you can present tobacco and alcohol. Therefore, what | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
marketing you can do in terms of those products within Scotland. So | :04:05. | :04:07. | |
there's been a divorce in many ways of some of the activities that | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
retailers used to be having across the UK. Now there are separate | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
things going on. Like the value of stocks and shares, the costs of | :04:18. | :04:20. | |
doing business in Scotland may go down as well as up. But you can be | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
certain there will be more stories like this in the months to come. The | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
unexpected items in the bagging area of Scottish politics. | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
Now, shortly, we'll look at how business copes with the border | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
between Northern Ireland and the Republic. But first, I'm joined by | :04:38. | :04:40. | |
Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp of the organisation Business for Scotland, | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
campaigning for a "yes" vote. And in Edinburgh, a businessman who runs a | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
group of shops, and supports Better Together, Daniel Johnson. Daniel | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
Johnson, this has non-issue written all over it, doesn't it? I don't | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
think so. I think the person in your clip there summed it up quite | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
neatly. We already know we have had complexity from devolution. I think | :05:04. | :05:06. | |
if Scotland were to become independent, we would have to be | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
looking at what might happen in terms of different regulations, | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
different taxes, different regimes. Maybe different currencies. That | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
complexity adds cost to business and in retail, those costs will end up | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
being passed on to consumers as the supermarkets have been saying. Yes, | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
but it depends what these changes are. It is as easy to envisage | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
changes that could mean that prices would go down, so the only argument | :05:34. | :05:40. | |
is to say there's something intrinsically about Scotland being | :05:41. | :05:43. | |
independent and being a smaller country that would mean prices would | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
go up? No, I think - if you listen to what I was just saying - the | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
moment you have two systems, you are going to introduce complexity. For a | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
retailer like me, who is small, if you are having to deal with two sets | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
of regulations, maybe two sets of currencies, that is quite a | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
complicated thing to have to deal with. It's that complexity, the | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
administration required to administer different regimes, which | :06:11. | :06:17. | |
is going to add cost to customers. Right. Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp, the | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
problem for you, while the people who support the "no" campaign seize | :06:22. | :06:28. | |
on this stuff and say, "Your grocery bills are going to go up" the "yes" | :06:29. | :06:38. | |
campaign say, "No, they won't." To get to the core truth of this | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
matter, no supermarkets have said they have any plans to raise prices | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
in an independent Scotland. Morrisons have said that prices | :06:48. | :06:54. | |
could go down with the right regime. What nay have said is that transport | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
costs for fresh food are more expensive in Scotland and after | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
independence, should it happen, they would run their business in Scotland | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
differently from the business in the whole of the UK, so that UK | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
consumers would no longer subsidise the extra costs involved in | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
Scotland. I spent about seven years of my career dealing at head office | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
level with ASDA and Morrisons and it is true that it does cost more to | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
deliver food to Orkney or to Aberdeen from Leeds, but it also | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
costs more to deliver it to Cornwall or to the Lake District than to | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
Leeds. Their point is if Scotland was independent, they would run | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
their business in Scotland separately and would not have | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
cross-border subsidies in the way they do at the moment? For a start, | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
it's been said in an interview with the Huffington Post, Morrisons said | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
that it would depend on the direction of travel and Scotland | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
would have the ability to make it a more fairer environment for | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
retailers to operate in. If you look at the direction of travel, the | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
White Paper that's come out from the Scottish Government states that | :08:03. | :08:09. | |
there will be a 3% corporation tax cut. There have been freight | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
services grants from the Scottish Government already which amounted to | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
?4 million that Tesco and ASDA have used to start distributing by rail | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
rather than road and cutting costs. So, basically, the powers are there | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
in an independent Scotland to create a situation where the cost of living | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
could go down and Andy Clarke, the Chief Executive of ASDA, has said he | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
is open to have meetings with Scottish politicians. Right. Daniel | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
Johnson? By the same token, Morrisons are saying - and you are | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
saying that Morrisons say that prices could go down. They are also | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
saying that if the cost of doing business in Scotland goes up, they | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
will pass those costs on. I think you can't... They won't go up. There | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
is no real reason for them to go up. Well, I think the distribution | :08:57. | :09:04. | |
costs... They will stay exactly the same. Why would they pass them on to | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
a different jurisdiction? It is like saying customers in France will | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
subsidise the transportation costs in Finland. That doesn't happen. I | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
don't see why businesses would be doing that under independence in | :09:18. | :09:24. | |
Scotland. It doesn't make sense. You can't say the prices might go down | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
and that they might go up as well. I can guarantee they have been going | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
up in Scotland and across the UK. Anyone who goes to Morrisons or ASDA | :09:35. | :09:41. | |
and buys the family shopping will see we have had a 4% increase in | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
food inflation in the UK over the last year. That's double that of | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
Norway, three times that of Sweden and in Denmark, small, independent | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
country that doesn't speak the same language or use the same currency, | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
food price inflation has decreased. So being a small independent nation, | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
how come they are doing better than Great Britain? It doesn't make sense | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
to say that just because you are smaller. If you are smaller and you | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
have the economic levers, you can create a better environment for | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
business and that has been said over and over again by the Scottish | :10:18. | :10:24. | |
Government. Alright. Let Daniel Johnson get a word in. I think it | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
comes back to the same point. It's got nothing to do with being | :10:29. | :10:35. | |
smaller. It's got to do with Scotland being a lot furtherer away | :10:36. | :10:43. | |
in the markets. There have been allegations that some businesses, | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
not just in Scotland, but big companies are afraid to speak out on | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
this issue because they might get lambasted by the Scottish | :10:53. | :10:59. | |
Government, or by people at the shops. Can you both agree that it | :11:00. | :11:10. | |
would be a good thing if the Max maximum number of businesses... That | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
is why I'm very pleased to be talking on the programme tonight. I | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
thought you would be. Are you? Business for Scotland has over 1,000 | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
members. Businesses are coming forward. They are willing to speak | :11:24. | :11:32. | |
out in favour of independence. You would like those who are not in | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
favour to speak out as well? They are not willing to go on television | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
and try and back up ridiculous scare stories like this. Alright. Don't go | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
away. We will bring you back in a moment if we have time. | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
Now, our reporter, Ian Hamilton, has been to Ireland, home to a land | :11:51. | :11:53. | |
border between a constituent part of the UK, and a separate state which | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
is part of the EU, and indeed the eurozone. There's a free travel area | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
between them, but the Republic of Ireland is not part of the European | :12:01. | :12:11. | |
Schengen free travel area. As I leave Scotland, and -- I am on | :12:12. | :12:19. | |
the road in the search for the UK's only international land border. | :12:20. | :12:22. | |
Sounds easy? You would think so. According to some in the better | :12:23. | :12:29. | |
together campaign, if Scotland votes yes next year, we could have | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
security guards and custom posts along the border between Scotland | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
and England. But according to the yes campaign, it does not have to be | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
that way. I am in Newry, a business -- a busy | :12:45. | :12:52. | |
border town in Northern Ireland. It is suggested that if Scotland votes | :12:53. | :12:55. | |
yes next year, this is a good example of the sort of border | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
Scotland could have with England. This border was once much tougher | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
due to the troubles. But today, the border is quite different. | :13:06. | :13:12. | |
Since 1923, there had been a Common travel area between the United | :13:13. | :13:15. | |
Kingdom and the Republic of Island. There was only one break in this | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
agreement, during the Second World War. Anyone holding a United Kingdom | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
passport or someone from the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands or the | :13:25. | :13:27. | |
Republic of Arles and can travel freely within this area without | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
showing that passport. -- Republic of Ireland. The yes campaign say | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
there is no reason why it is an independent Scotland should not be | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
part of this same Common travel area. | :13:42. | :13:55. | |
This is a good model, which has allowed a lot of labour mobility | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
across the border. The borders and smacked the barriers and challenges | :14:01. | :14:08. | |
arrived on things like taxation and regulatory issues. These are | :14:09. | :14:17. | |
barriers that in a sense could or should be sorted out. | :14:18. | :14:24. | |
Joseph is in the rubbish business, bringing in waste from all over | :14:25. | :14:31. | |
these islands. The likes of our business, because it is waste, the | :14:32. | :14:34. | |
border is very much there, everything that comes across much be | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
recorded, and it has to be shown exactly on time so that the people, | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
the regulators can know exactly what happens. I can take waste from | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
London and are not have to notify the authorities, but if I take it | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
from the South of Ireland, I have to. | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
This causes Joseph a headache and a lot of money. The lack of | :14:58. | :15:07. | |
harmonisation in the regulation of the movement of waste also causes | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
problems, and this is between two EU members. | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
We have been travelling around here trying to find the border between | :15:17. | :15:19. | |
the Republic of Island and the North of Ireland, and so far, no luck. -- | :15:20. | :15:26. | |
Republic of Ireland. I am desperate to show my passport, but there is no | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
one around. We gave up the idea of looking for | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
the border, and moved six miles south. | :15:34. | :15:39. | |
This is a massive frozen food distribution area, with enough space | :15:40. | :15:45. | |
for 40,000 pallets. The food here will end up on dining tables across | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
Britain and beyond. The owner of this business says the border six | :15:51. | :15:53. | |
miles to the north of them does not cause him any difficulties. It is | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
not a real problem. There are a few minor issues like this certification | :16:00. | :16:09. | |
for veterinary purposes for products produced in Northern Ireland or the | :16:10. | :16:12. | |
UK that are being exported to China or Russia, are countries like that, | :16:13. | :16:21. | |
but generally there is free trade. There are no customs barriers as | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
such. Everything flows on documentation. | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
Another contentious area if Scotland votes yes, is policing. There are | :16:32. | :16:39. | |
plenty of corporation between the police in the north and the Garda in | :16:40. | :16:49. | |
the South. They cooperate. I am sure there is a little bit of unofficial | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
or whatever, but generally they cooperate. What they did not have a | :16:54. | :17:04. | |
common travel zone for themselves. If I was to rob a bank this | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
afternoon, I could not get a clean getaway? ! That is a shame. | :17:09. | :17:16. | |
Neither I -- I would not attempt to rob any bank on either side of the | :17:17. | :17:24. | |
border. Like many things in this debate, the border between Scotland | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
and the rest of the UK will come down to negotiation. The Scottish | :17:29. | :17:30. | |
Government might be keen for it to become a member of the Scott -- | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
Common travel area, but will the rest of the UK? This might come down | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
to what kind of deal Scotland can negotiate to be part of the European | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
Union, and whether the rest of the UK vote to remain part of Europe. | :17:45. | :17:51. | |
Gordon, you have had experience in this. Either price differentials, I | :17:52. | :17:58. | |
think there were -- I thought there were. Milk and eggs seemed to be | :17:59. | :18:08. | |
cheaper in southern and fun Northern Ireland but potatoes are cheaper the | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
other way around, so it is pretty much the other -- the same. I have | :18:12. | :18:19. | |
done business in Ireland, and across -- I crossed the border several | :18:20. | :18:21. | |
times without noticing it. I asked my accountant before going to | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
Ireland last year what would be the differences. He said, it is pretty | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
seamless, there is a slight difference on tax. I will just put | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
the VAT inbox eight rather than box for. I think if we get the | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
regulations right, there is no reason for additional complexity, | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
but without additional complexes team we will have the opportunity to | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
create a business environment which could lower the cost of shopping in | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
Scotland. What do you make of that, Daniel? There are a lot of ifs and | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
buts. I have no doubt Scottish retailers will continue regardless | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
what has happened, but we do not know what will happen. There will be | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
additional regulations, and the people... The people dealing with | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
rubbish were saying there were a lot of differences. You have got a chain | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
of shops, are there any differences that would make a change to you? I | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
have about 300 suppliers, most based on the rest of the UK. -- in the | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
rest of the UK. The rest in continental Europe. When I am paying | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
invoices for suppliers in Europe, I have to pay ?15 for every | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
transaction. I do not have to do that for the rest of England. If | :19:44. | :19:46. | |
that did happen, that would be pretty worrying. I pay hundreds of | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
invoices every month, that would add thousands of pounds... But there is | :19:52. | :19:59. | |
no reason why that would happen. We would look to maintain seamless | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
control across the Borders. We would not have a separate currency. You | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
must have a different version of the white paper to me, because mine did | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
not have the chapter written by Nostradamus which said how the | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
negotiations were going to go. On the balance of problem -- prog -- on | :20:18. | :20:24. | |
the balance of probability, there should not be any more problems with | :20:25. | :20:27. | |
an independent Scotland dealing with other countries in the world. | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
You will have to continue this in your own time. | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
Tomorrow's front pages. The Daily Mail, was fuelled Fox to | :20:39. | :20:45. | |
blame in helicopter tragedy? -- fuel forked. | :20:46. | :20:56. | |
-- fault. The Times, cheat speed crackdown on | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
benefit -- claim fraud. That is all for tonight. Good night. | :21:03. | :21:13. | |
Good evening. We are in for a mild night across the British Isles | :21:14. | :21:16. | |
tonight. A thickening blanket of cloud will bring rain into most | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
areas by Dawn on Friday, but overnight lows will be something | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
like ten to 12 Celsius. The cloud and rain will work its way eastwards | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
through Friday, allowing trier, brighter weather to come in. -- | :21:31. | :21:40. | |
drier. Generally much drier and brighter for Scotland. The same can | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
be said for Wales and the south-west of England. The central and -- | :21:47. | :21:54. | |
central and eastern England, the rain on and off throughout the day | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
and into Friday evening it could be wet as well. Ended and Wales, the | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
weekend should be fine by day, Scotland and northern Ireland, in | :22:04. | :22:11. | |
for a stormy spell. One area of low pressure arriving on Saturday, so | :22:12. | :22:20. | |
you can see a much quieter story for England and Wales. Rain sweeps | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
across England and Wales on Saturday night, out of the way on Sunday. But | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
then our next front approaches on Sunday, bringing stronger winds. | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
Potentially | :22:35. | :22:35. |