Browse content similar to 21/01/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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remarks he makes from the factual context in which they're made. Thank | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
you very much. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland, an | :00:00. | :00:14. | |
independent Scotland would have to take radical measures to tackle | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
income in equality. But is that the right target? And confused, | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
apparently we are, we will hear results of a detailed poll on | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
attitudes to independence. Good evening. The boffins at | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
Stirling university have been looking at what an independent | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
Scotland could do to lessen income inequality, the answer, it seems is | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
not a great deal. Raising income tax or benefits would have a limited | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
effect. In a moment we discuss whether Scandinavian levels of | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
equality are achievable or even desirable. | :00:47. | :00:48. | |
Stoic other part of the report. In an on | :00:49. | :00:59. | |
The poor always with us, but who are the pure? Were these people pure? -- | :01:00. | :01:19. | |
poor. Is she pure? Debbie is working a short-term contract as a midwife. | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
Husband is a scaffolder but even with two wages, it is a struggle. | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
Obviously, the children are into various hobbies. We have to think, | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
how many miles on my doing, and will likely able to get to work next | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
week? It is very restrictive. Because you literally would not have | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
been able to fill up the car until you get the next pay check? | :01:42. | :01:48. | |
Absolutely. I the credit union set up a branch in Wesco bright eight | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
years ago after the collapse of the fair tax savings scheme. You have | :01:53. | :02:03. | |
elderly people making a choice as to whether or not to put the heating on | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
or make a meal. Locally, we have a good programme, but even at | :02:07. | :02:16. | |
Christmas, we had a local council opening schools to guarantee | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
children got a hot meal. We live in a wealthy country and yet we have a | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
divided between those that have and those that have not, and it is | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
becoming increasingly wide. Today's report warns that tackling | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
inequality in Scotland means more and tweaking tax and spend. Fiscal | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
policy in itself is not a panacea for inequality. We need to think | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
about having a strong labour market that pays decent wages, and offers | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
decent training and progression opportunities for employees. And | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
there are bound to be people that say that we will have more freedom | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
to do that as an independent country. Undoubtedly, Scotland will | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
have greater freedom to exercise policy levers and labour market | :02:58. | :03:05. | |
levers and interventions as an independent country but it is not | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
simple in the case of pulling a few fiscal switches after independence | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
and suddenly having a Scandinavian style level of inequality. | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
Politicians on both sides of the independence debate have, | :03:19. | :03:20. | |
predictably enough, seized on the findings. It is an interesting | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
report but it is concluding ultimately that reducing taxes or | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
taking fiscal measures is not the way to deal with inequality. We are | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
actually much better staying within the United Kingdom to do that. | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
Having the ability to integrate tax and benefits to avoid the kind of | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
property traps that people often fall into right now, making sure | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
that we are focusing on preventative policies and reaping the benefits of | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
those policies to reinvest in transforming society, these are the | :03:54. | :03:56. | |
things that you do with the extra powers. But we have a yawning gap | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
that we rich and pure that has been created under the Westminster | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
system. The argument is that if we want to tackle that, it will not be | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
automatic or easy, but we need the powers of tax and welfare to do | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
that. But who says that we need to tackle inequality? What is wrong | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
with having some people who are considerably richer than the rest of | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
us? You need some level of inequality in the economy to give | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
people the incentive they need to work and invest. But there is also a | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
point where the level of inequality starts to have detrimental | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
consequences on health and stress and levels of debt and so on. The | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
point at which we reach that tipping point, there is a great deal of | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
debate about. I've never known a food bank to open in Wesco bright. | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
But there is. -- West job right. That is a situation that many people | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
find themselves in. Struggling, trying to make ends meet. People not | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
getting wage rises. The cost of living has dramatically increased. | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
Fuel, rent, everything is going up. Nothing is coming down. One thing is | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
coming down and that his wages. -- that is wages. You can demolish | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
the slums and rebuild the cities, but perhaps reshaping society is a | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
real challenge. I'm joined now from London by Duncan | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
Exley, who is Chief Executive of campaigning think tank, The Equality | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
Trust, and from Edinburgh by Ben Thomson, chairman of think tank | :05:32. | :05:38. | |
Reform Scotland. There is a context to put this into. And it is a pretty | :05:39. | :05:45. | |
big issue. The share of national income going to Labour rather than | :05:46. | :05:52. | |
capital, which was rather stable, has been starting to shift since the | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
1990s towards capital and away from labour income. In almost all the | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
advanced countries of the world, and China, there is a huge international | :06:02. | :06:09. | |
issue. There is, but the UK is one of the worst countries for income | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
inequality. It is seven worse out of the OECD 34. -- seventh. We are | :06:16. | :06:23. | |
reaping the problems of that. It is damaging our economy and damaging | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
our society. It is damaging businesses and it means that | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
ordinary people will have less of a chance to have the opportunity that | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
richer people have. But economists are arguing over why there has been | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
this change over the past 20 or 25 years. There are various | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
explanations to do with the opening up of labour markets in China and | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
the former communist countries, to do with advances in technology. To | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
do with the weakening of trade unions. It is not obvious with these | :06:55. | :07:03. | |
explanations are that there is a set of policies you could adopt that | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
would affect them. There are some factors that are basically | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
globalisation, but countries have a choice. Governments have a choice | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
over what they put in place to respond to globalisation. If you | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
look at Germany, they have put in place measures to concentrate on | :07:20. | :07:21. | |
building up small firms, to encourage industries which bring in | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
people who are skilled and where there are people who have decent | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
pay, as opposed to what we have here which is one of the highest levels | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
of people on low pay in the developed world. That is the sort of | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
choice that governments can make when they are encouraging different | :07:42. | :07:49. | |
countries. Perhaps one of the most interesting things about today's | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
report was that usually all this discussion about inequality is to do | :07:54. | :07:55. | |
with tax levels and the rest but they wanted to focus on, in the | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
conclusion of the report, they said it is market incomes, in other | :08:00. | :08:11. | |
words, before any income. Market incomes are more equal in | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
Scandinavia than Britain. That raises a set of issues that are not | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
being addressed. I'll agree with that. There are a lot of different | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
factors that go to make up this. There were two interesting things | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
from this report. If you take out the south-east and, the UK fares | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
much better and is actually on the average of the OECD countries. It is | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
not to say that we should not make it an aim to improve pay | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
inequality, and also improve poverty. That is a separate thing. | :08:42. | :08:49. | |
And not to say that we should not see growth in GDP as the be all and | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
end all. When we look at the Nordic model, one of the things that people | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
have to take into account is that it is not just economic factors. It is | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
also a real different attitude and culture in Nordic countries, which | :09:02. | :09:11. | |
are the best in the world. The measure of inequality is the lowest | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
in the Nordic countries. Partly, that is to do with culture. And that | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
takes a long time to change. I wonder, everyone quotes the | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
Scandinavian countries, other is another fact about the Scandinavian | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
countries, apart from them being equal, which is that they are among | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
the richest countries in the world. When the UN looked at things like | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
whether people were happy with their lives, the correlation with him | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
rich, in a rich country, seemed much from her than the correlation with | :09:43. | :09:44. | |
being in a country that was very equal. By and large, in rich | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
countries, unequal like the United States, which is unequal, or whether | :09:49. | :09:57. | |
it is Denmark, which came out as the most satisfied. There is an obvious | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
benefit from being a rich country rather than a developing country. | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
But if you compare rich countries with each other, the ones who are | :10:06. | :10:12. | |
more equal the ones where they have fewer health and social problems, | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
where the economies tend to be more stable, and where people tend to get | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
along better with each other. Those societies are the ones that people | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
say they prefer living in. These things are very difficult to measure | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
in any adequate way. A lot of those things are quite easy to measure. | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
You can measure life expect the sea and obesity and drug use. There are | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
lots of measures you can have a look at. And when you look at those, and | :10:40. | :10:48. | |
they are including us, and they come out better. The other aspect of this | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
is that the debate in Scotland, and in Britain generally, about | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
Scandinavia, is, oh my gosh, they are very equal and that is great and | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
we want to be like that. But actually, of all of the OECD | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
countries, the one with the fastest-growing inequality is | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
Sweden, even though it is still a more equal society than ours. The | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
debate in Sweden and Denmark is, well, we have got this society and | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
it does not seem to be working. What can we hang onto? It is odd that | :11:19. | :11:25. | |
three out of four of the Scandinavian countries are run by | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
centre-right governments. There was about 70% of GDP in the public | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
sector, now falling to 51%, broadly in line with the UK. One of the | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
secrets they do have is that public sector power and the provision of | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
the public sector is done at a much more local, community level, which | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
is something that a lot of people miss. People are prepared to share | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
more because they feel more part of their communities. All of education | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
and health, by and large in Scandinavian countries, is not only | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
done at a regional level, which would be similar to our regional | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
councils, but pushed right the way down to municipalities. In Sweden | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
there are about 300, which have real control. People feel more | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
comfortable about being part of a real community which has power to do | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
the things that they want to do. Briefly, one of the things the OECD | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
identified was strong labour markets, countries with collective | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
bargaining, strong trade unions to push wages at the end of the day, | :12:29. | :12:32. | |
they say, to be more equal. Things like works councils and the way | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
things are organised in places like Germany, do you think it's | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
realistically within our capability in Britain to change what an effect | :12:42. | :12:49. | |
of a culture of labour relations? A lot of those things have been things | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
that, to be honest, some employers have got it into their heads that | :12:54. | :13:00. | |
there are some big superstars, who deserve to be rewarded very richly | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
and that the rest of us are basically costs to be reduced. They | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
have sold that sort of idea to a lot of politicians and to a lot of | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
investors and a lot of commentators. Actually, that's one of the most | :13:14. | :13:16. | |
profoundly antibusiness things I can think of, because it means for most | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
people, there is very little recognition or reward for hard work. | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
There are means that can be put in place rather than just expecting | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
people to change what they think, which is about working in a German | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
model, where they have ordinary workers on the committee that's | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
decide how much the top people get paid. So it brings some perspective | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
to it. Those sorts of measures are ones that we could do here without | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
any trouble. We have to leave it there. Thank you | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
both very much. So, after what already seems like an | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
eternity, discussing the finer points of Scottish independence, it | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
seems little of it is having any impact on voters. Those are the | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
findings from the latest Social Attitudes Survey. It suggests that | :14:04. | :14:06. | |
what matters most is the money in our pockets. | :14:07. | :14:13. | |
Being ?500 better off would convince more than half of voters to support | :14:14. | :14:20. | |
independence with under a third against, conversely only a minority | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
would say yes if they thought they'd be ?500 a year worse off. Here's the | :14:25. | :14:32. | |
rub, less than one in ten agree with the 'Yes' campaign that they would | :14:33. | :14:39. | |
be personally better off. A greater minority accept the argument that | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
they'd be worse offer. Most feel it won't make any difference or they | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
just won't know. Lack of knowledge appears to be a theme in this | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
report. The campaigns have apparently left most people unsure | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
what would happen in the event of independence, a six-point increase | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
on the previous year. When you dig deep e, only -- deeper, only one in | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
five say they know a great deal or quite a lot about independence, and | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
a much larger number say they don't know very much or anything at all. | :15:13. | :15:19. | |
It's difficult to predict which way the don't knows will turn, but a | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
clear majority feel they should have the option of voting for a more | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
powerful Scottish Parliament within the UK. The tricky matter for them | :15:28. | :15:37. | |
is that this isn't an option. I'm joined by Professor John Curtice, | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
who is research consultant at ScotCen Social Research, which | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
carries out the Scottish social attitudes study. Very briefly, what | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
we were talking about before, inequality, you've done research. | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
Are there any noticeably different attitudes in Scotland about people | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
being prepared to put up with higher taxes to get more equality than | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
there are in England? Let me give you statistics from the survey out | :16:03. | :16:05. | |
this evening, which casts doubt about the degree to which Scotland | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
really wants more equality or thinks independence would bring more | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
equality. Only 16% of people in our survey said that if Scotland as a | :16:15. | :16:17. | |
result of independence the gap between rich and poor would narrow, | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
we also now find that 52% of people in Scotland think that unemployment | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
benefit is too high and puts off people from getting work, which is a | :16:29. | :16:30. | |
record figure for Scotland. The truth is that Scotland has shared in | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
what we know from UK social data, which is that people are tougher on | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
welfare. Scotland is not immune from that change. OK. Now, your 500 quid | :16:43. | :16:49. | |
question. I get the idea this is a proxy for the economy being | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
important. You say to people, would you like more money, they generally | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
say yes. Yeah, if that were all to the survey, you'd be right. But | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
underneath those questions, which are yes, very hypothetical, is a | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
crucial reality. That is that if people think that indeed Scotland's | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
economy would be better under independence, which around a third | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
of people in Scotland think would be the case, you're very likely, people | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
say yes, we will vote yes. Conversely, if you think the economy | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
is going to be worse under independence, then, 75%, 80% of this | :17:27. | :17:33. | |
group say no, we will vote no. It's not just the hypothetical that | :17:34. | :17:39. | |
reveals that the financial implications, economic implications | :17:40. | :17:42. | |
as people perceive them make a difference, it's also they're clear | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
in terms of the decisions that people have already made. There is | :17:48. | :17:50. | |
no other issue which more clearly different hates those who have -- | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
differentiates those who are going to vote yes. I wonder if it's fair | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
on the politicians, isn't it just the nature of the case, you can't | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
imagine a case that the 'Yes' campaign could make for saying | :18:06. | :18:08. | |
you're going to be ?500 better off that would be so cast iron that the | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
'No' campaign would say, oh, my gosh, yes, you're absolutely right. | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
Therefore people are going to be confused. If that's all we were | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
arguing about, you might be correct. What we're arguing is that yes, the | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
economy matters. It's crucial to voters. It's become more important. | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
At the same time, there are lots of other things such as Europe, the | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
currency, how you pay for child care, which politicians have been | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
arguing about in detailed, abstract academic arguments. These seem to be | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
passing voters by. Yes and no voters agree with Europe. Yes and no voters | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
don't disagree about the currency. Yes and no voters don't disagree | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
very much about the issue of welfare, including unemployment | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
benefits. The point is the campaign is focussing on issues that are not | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
central to voters' voters' interests. There more don't knows? | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
There aren't more don't knows but plenty of people in the survey | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
reveal that they have an idea of what they might want to do, but are | :19:09. | :19:11. | |
not necessarily absolutely sure what they're going to do. Thanks very | :19:12. | :19:18. | |
much. Tomorrow's front pages: The Scottish Daily Mail - first class | :19:19. | :19:25. | |
monstering. Royal Mail chairman launches blistering attack on | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
Salmond's divisive and sad independence plans. | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
The Scotsman, Assad's mass killings are Syria's Holocaust. And the Daily | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
Telegraph, Clegg's wife told him he let down women. That's all for | :19:39. | :19:41. | |
tonight. I'm back tomorrow. Until then, from all of us on the | :19:42. | :19:43. | |
programme, good night. Hello there. Last night fog was the | :19:44. | :19:56. | |
issue. Don't it's rain. It will be a damp start across eastern parts of | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
the UK. Gradually things improve. For most of us we'll settle into a | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
reasonable day of sunshine and showers. There will be lengthy | :20:04. | :20:06. | |
brighter spells across Northern Ireland. We will see a line of | :20:07. | :20:09. | |
showers pushing into western Scotland, the last of the overnight | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
rain clearing into the Northern Isles. In between we see brighter | :20:13. | :20:14. | |
spells through the spine of Scotland and northern England. A few showers | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
around, but they'll move through quite quickly. Brightness for the | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
Midlands too. It might be a struggle for eastern most counties of | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
England. The overnight rain only very gradually easing away. It stays | :20:27. | :20:29. | |
chilly here. In the brighter spells, further west, temperatures will | :20:30. | :20:32. | |
respond, up to eight or nine degrees. The breeze shouldn't be too | :20:33. | :20:35. | |
strong. There will be showers around. They won't last that long | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
and there's a good chance where you are, you'll avoid most | :20:40. | :20:40. |