27/01/2014 Newsnight Scotland

American government works. Today, a more pragmatic President has two act

set that just keeping government open may have two pass for success.

The time for grand ideals is past. Tonight on Newsnight Scotland: The

government's tried suggesting and asking nicely, so is legislation now

the only way to get more equal representation for women on company

boards? Good evening and welcome to the new

Newsnight Scotland studio. Nicola Sturgeon has floated the idea of

introducing statutory quotas to ensure that at least 40% of the

people on company boards are female. That has been met with a roar of

disapproval from business groups, but when only 19% of board members

of FTSE 100 companies are women, does the Deputy First Minister have

a point? Huw Williams has been hearing the experiences of some

women who have made it the top. When I opened a bank account when I

first graduated, the bank manager said, you are a dental nurse. I

said, no, I am a dentist. In fact, she ran her own dental practice. But

she is against the idea of quotas for female directors. It shows a

lack of understanding of private businesses because any private

business, even Apple computers were set up by it self, and therefore,

you cannot say a small business with three or four staff, you must have

one woman on the Board of Directors. The idea of quotas was raised again

at the weekend. There is no finer sight than looking out at an

audience of women, and every time I do come across an audience like

this, I can't help thinking that Parliament will look like this.

Nicola Sturgeon promised that in an independent Scotland, she would

argue at least 40% of places on boards should be guaranteed for

women. It was the UK government... I don't want a debate that is

dominated by men in suits. And it is inspiring to see you here today.

Women attending the conference certainly agreed on the need to make

their voices heard. Women make up over 50% of the population here.

Although issues from the referendum affect everyone, quite often,

women's priorities are perhaps put aside or not is highlighted as other

issues. I am not sure what the reason for that is. But this

pioneering woman says, especially for small businesses, quotas would

be disastrous. It's bad enough having to D -- to do the PAYE and

other bits of red tape you have got to do. Now, you have got to find 40%

of women to settle your board. You will then have to say you have to

have so many Jewish or Muslim or Christian people. It would be great

to have 40% of females. 50% would be fantastic. I don't think quotas are

other ways to drive that, necessarily. Caroline has been a

consultant for 25 years. The job of finding the right woman is still a

challenge, in some cases, so having a quota will not change that. You

have still got to find the right woman to fill the 40%. Why do we

need to have equality in the boardroom? Women bring very

different levels of thinking and decision-making and a different

perspective. That is just the difference between a male and

female. There is a different way of communicating. There is an argument

that companies should set out tactics and targets for tackling

gender inequality and then complying and explain why. But how do you get

individual candidates board ready? One of my client is a director in a

company. I have invited her to different events. I think that is

interesting because you get senior women meeting other senior women and

some board members have taken her to other places and people. So, she has

got a different view, a year on, the jihad before. I have been a pioneer

in many ways for women. I have been a pioneer. And if she doesn't want

quotas, are they really such a good idea? Absolutely. They have done in

other countries. In Norway, they changed to 40% and it change the

culture in businesses overnight. Women have a right to an equal place

in our society, and that means pay and representation.

Joining me now are journalist and author, Lesley Riddoch, group HR

director with Devro plc, Dorothy Lowry and the chief executive

director of the Institute of Directors Scotland, David Watt. Is

there a need for quotas? I think there is. Statistics tell you one

story, but either half the population are somehow not capable

of contributing towards better corporate governance and it doesn't

matter if there is not diversity at the top or you don't. We are sitting

here today with news like RBS losing ?40 billion since 2008. Now, that

whole climate that was created in the city was a boys club. It was

testosterone fuelled mania. We have recovered a bit from that, but only

a bit. Surely, this is a time to be asking whether we are getting the

best type of governance of companies if we have such a low representation

of the kind of people who tend to be more risk averse and less inclined

to pat themselves on the back and give themselves the big rewards. All

the evidence suggests including women tends to create those more

level, flatter management styles. Is it practical to legislate and compel

companies to do this? I don't think so. I don't think there is a place

for quotas in public companies. Most organisations promote people in the

organisation, both on their ability to perform in the role, their skills

and their potential for the future. So, women are not performing that

well, then? I am not suggesting that at all. Why should more... But isn't

the bottom line but there needs to be some level of compulsion?

Business needs to be pushed in this direction, it seems. I don't think

that is true at all. First of all, the number has grown from 12 to 19%.

We are going in the right direction and need to go faster. There is a

lot of academic research that diverse boards increased profit. The

idea of compulsion is just silly. It doesn't achieve anything. What about

that point that if the numbers are going up and the UK government set a

target of 25% representation by 2015, and Vince Cable believes they

are on target? These were precisely the kind of points put forward when

a male trade minister of a Conservative government in Norway

looked at the statistics and decided to take action. At that point, they

had a 40% quota for public boards since the 1980s for political

parties. And they still had a miserable 7% of women on company

boards. So they decided then to introduce this mandatory quota. The

Guardian had the headline: You're fired! In Norway, a company director

made a controversial comment: We have to find these women on an

escort service! Later, that director was quoted as saying that having 50%

on his board had improved profitability and reduce the number

of dirty jokes told around the table. When some women worried that

this is tokenistic? Are they there because of their ability will to

meet the quota? I am a living manifestation of all sorts of

discrimination. When I apply to go to Oxford University, there was a

quota system for Scottish students, otherwise there would not have got

in. When I was a BBC trainee, there were 50% men and women on every

course. When I came back to Scotland, there was a male presenter

and they were looking for a theme presented to match him. I would not

have got a break if it was not for these quotas. Cometh the hour,, for

the woman. --, the woman. The proportion of women on boards

and Iceland's largest companies had reached 32% only a couple of years

ago. This was because of new legislation. There is no one more

enthusiastic than the about doing something regarding this issue. It

is not acceptable and we have talked to the people in Norway. We brought

them over to Scotland and even the women advised against it. They did

not believe it was the correct way to proceed. They found that many of

the women began to populate a lot of the boards and to suggest that

Norway is perfect is not correct. So it is OK for men to have ten or 20

directorships and not women? Absolutely not. Let us do something

about it. We are doing things the way to build our membership and

we're doing a mentoring scheme another session in March, we have

done five already and we are doing constant training and development

for all sorts of able. Let us build the capacity, that is what we should

do. Why do you believe we are in this position where women are

underrepresented and coming forward with this idea of a quote, do we

need to look at other issues regarding parental leave and

flexible working? -- quote. One of the issues we have in the United

Kingdom is the lack of childcare on a cost-effective basis. A lot of

women are prevented from going back to work because they cannot afford

childcare, therefore we have very talented women sitting at home

because of the lack of childcare and childcare is not necessarily a

woman's issue, it is a political and country issue as well and until we

start to get things like childcare correct, then we will continue to

face the problem with the lack of women coming through and

organisations and going on to boards. I think we will shortly see

the introduction of flexible working or greater flexible working

legislation where men can take parental leave than they can take at

the moment and as we see more men taking time off, and women obviously

returning to the workplace, then hopefully we will start to sort of

say the changes happening, but that will take some time for that is to

actually work through the system. Lesley Riddoch, we have seen a

direct appeal to women at the head of the referendum regarding this

issue is childcare measures but when it comes to the number of women on

boards, does it need to wait until a referendum or independence?

It looks like there has been some movement from the Scottish

government. I have a letter sent by the Scottish government sent to the

Westminster government asking for the ability to be able to enforce

quotas in Scotland. It is a kind of grey area, devolution, although

equality regarding legislation is the preserve of Westminster. There

was the suggestion that Scottish ministers could do something

different. Jo Swinson, the new UK minister, she has favoured the ball

route that you described earlier, she believes that is OK for Scotland

unless a more detailed case is put in that is being constructed by the

Scottish Government and I see all power to their elbow. Does the

public sector needs to lead the way here, an area where politicians have

greater control arguably? When you look at the local cabinets for

instance, Westminster or in Scotland, there is not a 50-50

gender balance there, do politicians need to get their own house in

order? Absolutely, if you look at all parliaments there is an issue

regarding that. Bodies in Scotland have addressed this publicly and are

trying to change the balance. You mentioned 19%, we have increased 30%

over two years, surely that is progress in the right direction and

we should be building capacity and opportunity in the right way. I am

delighted that Jo Swinson has voiced her opinion on this issue. How

different do you believe companies would be if there were more women on

these boards, Dorothy? I think gender equality is very important.

It would change how boards operate, but I do not think that making it

compulsory is the correct way forward. Did you recognise the macho

culture that Lesley Riddoch talked about? I think it depends upon the

organisation, she alluded to the banking sector earlier where the

whole RBS disaster she said was down to their being a sort of boys club.

If we could promote compulsion on quotas, what we will do is instead

of the same old men being on the same old boards, what we will have

is a smaller number of women with a smaller power base being on boards

as well and it is not really going to improve things at all. Lesley,

how do you respond? I think that mystifying, then you get to a stage

where people have the capacity and you structure things that we, you

get all sorts of different people into public life. Let us look at the

Scottish Parliament. At its highest point it had 39% representation of

women, solely as a result of mechanisms and board has put in by

the Scottish Lib Dems and Labour Party, not the SNP. It has since

dropped to 34% and the Nordics found this as well that if they took their

foot off the pedal for a minute that the numbers tended to come back down

again. Unless you have something that stiffens the resolve and a

target or quote does it, an intention to create a different sort

of society does it, you will get a situation where women watching this

in Scotland will get this one message, that they will have to

wait, it will be later, it will not be in their lifetimes and that they

do not even come second or first. That leads to population

demoralisation and I do not think anyone wants that for Scotland.

Michelle Mone, the leading Scottish businesswoman, she writes today that

she would consider legal action to take against this, is that something

you believe that other businesses would consider doing? It is not

something that he wants to do. We want to move this forward and look

at it positively. If you look the or four years down the road, and we

have investigated all of the options like building capacity and

opportunity and there is no progress towards the target we all want or at

least a fearless or diversity that we all want, a successful measure

for women, men and old boards and companies, we will look at that. But

we are a long way away from that, we have drawn up to 30% over the last

two years, what more do people want? Dorothy, is there a desire on the

boards for change? Absolutely. This is evolution, not revolution. If we

involved as we are doing at the moment, we will have the red calibre

of woman on board who can contribute and enhance the performance of the

organisations. Thank you all very much indeed.

Now, a quick look at tomorrow's front pages. The Daily Mail says MPs

will tell the Queen to rent out her palace and the Telegraph says the

economy is growing at That's all from me.

Its fastest pace since the economic crash. Goodnight.

Good evening. Low pressure continues to move slowly across the United

Kingdom with showers overnight and during the