04/03/2014 Newsnight Scotland

French defence sales, were used as a reason for allowing this to continue

without being properly challenge. Bag you all very much. -- thank you.

Tonight on Newsnight Scotland... The First Minister is in London

talking up the benefits of independence for the rest of the UK.

Crossing the border to deliver keynote speeches is becoming a bit

of a habit in this debate for both sides. But how well do they go down?

And research out today tells us more about this new and mysterious

tranche of the electorate. Young people. How are they forming their

opinions? And are the subjects really engaging them?

Good evening. He talked about Scotland as the northern light

balancing the dark star of the south. When Alex Salmond gave a

speech to a gathering in London, he told them an independent Scotland

would be a powerful told them an independent Scotland

why did he feel the need to make that speech down south?

why did he feel the need to make come to deliver their messages up

here? Suzanne Allan has been finding out.

It has long been a battle hymn of the SNP.

# Scots way-hey... #. Tonight, Alex Salmond tried to

invoke the spirit of Robert Burns more than ever. At an event the

First Minister delivered an emotional speech, straight to the

hearts and minds of Scots. Except he was in a place he calls the dark

Star, London. Professor Tony Stivers said London is the dark star,

sucking in energy, no one owes how to control it. He wants to rebalance

the economy away from London. I'll macro after independence, the growth

of an economic power in the north of these islands would benefit

everyone. Our closest neighbours in the North of England more than

everyone. It would be a Northern light to address the influence of

the dark star, rebalancing the economic gravity. Better Together

politician says he is short on detail.

He has just not worked out the basic facts. No matter what his bluster

is. So why did the First Minister go to the capital to appeal to a crowd

of people who do not have a vote in September anyway? He would like

popular support for the idea of an independent Scotland. They do not

have the vote, so it is immaterial in one way, but it is not, as this

will affect the whole of the United Kingdom. Everything Alex Salmond

does, he is acutely aware the real audience, the voters, and appeared

in Scotland, so this is a message played North as well as south of the

border. This campaign is turning into a bit of a love in, David

Cameron banging on about his Scottish roots and love of oil,

George Osborne in Edinburgh seeing Scotland will not be able to bank at

the same place as the rest of the UK. And there they are, again and

again, and again. But did ruling out a currency union with the rest

the UK backfire? David Cameron has tried to is good across the idea

that this is not just a campaign to do with threats against Scotland,

that we really need Scotland, want them to stay. In Scotland, George

Osborne's approach went down quite badly in the chilly, but I think as

the Scots have begun to think about it, they have realised this idea of

a currency union is an important one. In terms of changing minds,

does the Westminster's Cabinet in Aberdeen, and the trip to London by

Alex Salmond, make any difference? It is the underside of voters. Our

polls showed that marginally, the currency union issue, that favours

the no side. I do not think it is a game changer as far as the rest of

the campaign is concerned, at this stage. That anyone outside of

Scotland care? Broadly, less John McGlynn -- less strong opinions. Few

people dead set on this issue. But on the Ms -- but the majority of

England and Wales are against independence. That is clear from the

falling. There is no doubt citizens the length and breadth of the UK are

starting to take notice of what is happening north of Hadrian Zwolle.

Come September the 19th, though the tune be Scots Way-hey or the

Dambusters? With me in the studio is the

Observer Columnist Kevin McKenna. And in our Millbank studio, the

editor of the New Statesman, who hosted the First Minister's speech

tonight, Jason Cowley. Onto the matters of substance in a moment,

but Jason Cowley, what did you make of that meeting and the long

discussion after it? I invited the First Minister to London, he came

down on our invitation, because I was fascinated by what he had to

say. I thought the lecture itself was low-key. Moderate, balanced,

delivered with very sober tones. Afterwards, the question and answer

was electric, he was on great form, very witty, taking strong questions

and engaging with them, and I thought it was superb and showed him

at his best. What is your sense of the atmosphere amongst the political

classes in London? You have written recently that you thought they have

been very complacent about what is happening in Scotland. Is that

changing? happening in Scotland. Is that

both from the political elites at Westminster, but also the comment

area down here in London. The standard line I have heard for the

last couple of years, and it is something that interests me greatly,

is that it will not happen. This from senior Labour Party ministers,

not even beginning to think seriously about why so many Scots

would feel so disaffected from London, from Westminster. But you

think that is changing? Yes, because I think they are beginning to

seriously consider the consequences of what Alex Salmond might achieve.

They did not think he would win the 2011 Scottish elections. I did and

wrote a leader in the New Statesman effectively warning the Labour Party

that they were going to lose, this would have profound consequences for

the Labour Party, or Scotland and the United Kingdom. Kevin McKenna,

what do you think Alex Salmond's game is? It was always his intention

to be in London at some point. To talk about the maturity of his

independence vision and to allow the so-called political media elite to

know that this is not just a pressure group any more, this is a

serious political party who have been in government for several

years. And that reassuringly, for them, that independence may not mean

an absolute break with the UK, that they will still have lots of things

in common and I think that was what was touched on in his speech

tonight, about the cross corporation that they can have with, especially

the northern regions in England, and also the Scottish model of social

justice in an independent Scotland can be a beacon for the rest of the

UK, especially at this time we are, in the UK, I think the programme

after this is the second in a series exploring the extent to which London

has become, is going its own way and become a separate city state, even

with in England. Do you think the audience there was buying into that,

Jason Cowley? Alec Salmond went out of his way to see nice things about

London, of course, but the core of the argument is has to be that

London is becoming a citystate, but there is something wrong with that,

that other areas of the UK would there is something wrong with that,

doing better if London was not doing so well. That is the bit that is

perhaps more controversial? Yes, he uses a metaphor, taken from Vince

Cable, about London's sucking talent and resources and people away from

the rest of the United Kingdom, using the metaphor of the dark star.

My problem with Alex Salmond's positioning is the North of England

will be squeezed between an independent Scotland, which would

wish to reduce corporation tax, and London. So he speaks about the

social union, a currency union. But I have great concerns about his

position on corporation tax in particular. So the North of England

also suffers from a democratic deficit, not just Scotland, it has

decisively and emphatically rejected the Tories, but at the same time, so

has the North of England. And the North of England could find itself

squeezed between Edinburgh and London. Fascinated you talk about

democratic deficit, the companies there were referendums on more

powers in the North of England. That field. -- failed. And maybe I New

Statesman audience would not be representative of middle England,

but the question and answer session, apologies we cannot show you that,

that some of your audience were quite interestingly getting into a

discussion about what should happen in England in terms of using what is

happening up here as a way of sparking a much broader debate about

constitutional reform in the UK. This is an opportunity for the

Scottish people to vote for independence for the English to

decide what kind of nation they want to be an reconfigure the

relationship of these nations in these islands. It is odd that that

debate hasn't happened. It didn't really happen in the run-up to the

creation of the Scottish Parliament in the late 90s, and it hasn't yet

really happened in England now that you would think, on the face of it,

with all these transformations, there would be a debate about what a

democracy in Britain or England actually look like. Well, I think

politics north and south of the border have evolved away from each

other since 2007. I think there is a perception in Scotland, and I know

it can be exaggerated more than somewhat, that Scotland has moved

towards a more old-fashioned socialism, where society is

underpinned by the principles of social justice.

underpinned by the principles of contrast with what has happened in

England, where there has been a lurch to the right. -- this is in

stark contrast. A Moray poll said that the numbers haven't moved

amongst poorer people, among people who live in poorer housing estates,

independence is winning. I think Mr Salmond thinks us that is good but

they need to reach middle Scotland. The middle Scotland... Coming back

to middle England, you don't think this debate is going to get very

far. It is interesting. The New Statesman, to give them credit, it

has been the first of the so-called London media establishment that

began to take the referendum seriously come in my opinion. Well,

we're running out of time, but Jason, you wrote that the UK is

moving inexorably towards federalism. Really? Well, I would

favour diva Max for Scotland at the very least. I'd be interested in how

we might looked in power the region 's particular in North, I doubt we

will have an English parliament but that would be interesting. This is

an exciting period. When you come to Scotland, you get us but you get a

sense there is something at stake. Things are beginning to turn. This

is all the credit, and all of it goes to SNP and Alex Salmond. He

might not win independence but he has certainly started a very

important conversation. Thank you both very much.

There are generally two truisms about young people and politics.

They're less engaged than adults, and they vote exactly like their

parents. Well, researchers from Edinburgh University have put paid

to both those notions as part of a study into what influences young

people's political attitudes. I'll be speaking to the report's author

in a moment. But, first, Graham Stewart has been testing out the

findings on our own unscientific group of young voters.

This is generation 2014, the BBC's focus group of 16-18 -year-olds and

they broadly reflects the findings of the study which suggests that

young people are no less interested in politics than adults. In

young people are no less interested media's playing a significant role.

On Twitter, you can use the hash cake -- the hash tag, and you can

get other people 's views, which can be interesting because it is not

complicated, and it is short and sweet. The study indicates young

people are keen on seeking out additional information. Jamie, who

was on seeking out additional information. Jamie, who is

undecided, says he his own research. I've compared both

websites from Better Together campaign and the yes campaign. And

at the moment, I am pushed towards yes campaign because they have given

us more information. The research challenges the idea young people are

influenced by the parents. I am voting the same way as my parents,

as far as I know, although there is room for my own opinion. Yes, I have

grown up in a family which is mainly yes, but they did consider myself a

no vote for a while. -- I did consider myself. But I have had more

sturdy campaign information from the yes campaign. These young people are

determined to make up their own minds.

Well, Dr Jan Eichhorn, who led the research, joins me now.

So, the idea people are not interested in politics, you've

stopped that. We have looked at figures in politics, you've stopped

that. We have looked at figures and politic or interests, and it is the

same as adults. About 10% as disinterested, but that is similar

to what we see in adults. Young people are not more interested but

not less interested. What did you say to them? Did you ask them in

general whether they were politically engaged, or did you ask

them about this in specific? We did both. Nearly 90% talked about the

referendum. We asked them about their intention to vote in the

referendum from a practical point of view and it is similar to adult

perspectives. We think the voting turnout is going to be high.

Something people have commented on is that perhaps a lot of young

people might be interested to in gauge in political issues in the

broad, but not interested to engage in this particular issue. No, they

are even more interested in this referendum. Partially because they

can see that there is something where their vote matters. It is a

clear decision. If a vote in a general collection, where we expect

a lower turnout of young people than this... So, the item we had before

said that we have something at stake. You are getting that same

sense on this particular issue, people think this matters? Yes,

young people feel, the 16 and 17-year-olds in the surveys we have

done, they are taking this seriously because they realise it matters and

they are being engaged. They are being taken seriously. You also say

they don't vote the same as their parents. Absolutely. We interviewed

one of their parents as well as the young people and only half have the

same voting intentions as their parents. It is nearly 50-50. Just

explained the point about schools. What is really important is that

schools might bias young people if they discuss it in school. But what

we see is that whether they discussed it in school or not,

doesn't bias them to vote either way. However, those that have

discussed it on average you more confident in the understanding of

politics and their knowledge about the referendum. So it is a positive

effect. Right, and just in case some parents are offended, you did find

that whether or not people, young people, are likely to vote, they are

interested in politics? They will listen to mum and dad when they say

go to the polling booth, and ignore which side they should vote? No,

young people do listen to their parents but they make up their minds

with a variety of sources. That is the key. Thank you.

Now a quick look at tomorrow's front pages. The Scotsman, Kerry once

Russians want to invite further. And the daily record is about the dole

queue. That's all from me. Good night.

It will be a frosty start of the day with some pockets of fog-bob as

well. Apart