22/04/2014 Newsnight Scotland

parents. They say was the NUT has put a fight on pensions and pay,

they are not winning them. They ask who exactly are they representing?

On Newsnight Scotland tonight: The former Chancellor and Prime Minister

Gordon Brown says a vote for independence would be bad news for

your pension. The Yes campaign say his analysis is

economically illiterate. There are clearly two sides of this argument,

at least. We'll hear from SNP and Labour.

Also tonight, did you see the documentary about women's attitudes

to the referendum? We'll try to make sense of some more of that puzzle.

Good evening. If you search online for "Gordon Brown" and "pensions"

you get plenty of his arguments that independence would be bad for your

state pension. Online, you'll also find material casting back to his

early years as Chancellor and the so-called pension raid - the

increase of the tax take on private sector pension funds. But today's

intervention, on behalf of Better Together, was about the future not

the past. Huw Williams' report contains some flash photography.

Gordon Brown went to the University of Glasgow to contrast to views of

Scotland's future, the nationalist vision or his own of four

independent -- interdependent nations.

Over the last years, we have achieved something that no other

group of nations has achieved by working together. We have

co-operated in such a way that we have guarantee it fundamental rights

to everybody and we have narrowed the differences between the income

levels of Scots and English people and Welsh and Northern Irish people.

This is because we Scots made a decision that we would abandoned our

separate funding for the health care system and we would work for UK

intervention to establish economic and social rights.

He listed what he called the positive benefits of the union,

health care funding, social and cultural ties and pensions.

As a result of our tax credit system, ?700 million is paid out as

tax credits in Scotland, ?1 billion is paid out in disability benefits.

As a result of these changes, the total benefit to Scotland that is

greater than any population, that we could be given, is more for

pensioners. That figure will rise, because the proportion of the

working age population of Scotland will not grow as fast as England in

future, but the number of pensions are growing fast. In the next few

years, it will be 700 million pounds. That is a benefit of being

part of the union. He quoted statistics from the

Department for Work and Pensions, saying that Scotland pays 8% of the

cost of UK National Insurance, that gets 9% of the benefits. He said

that the rest of the UK underwrites Scotland's's public sector pensions

Bill. And he said that administration and IT costs to set

up a separate benefit system here could be around ?1 billion.

In reply, the SNP said that Gordon Brown destroyed the value of

pensions was in office, to the cost of ?100 billion. They said that

social protection costs take a lower percentage of tax revenue, making

pensions more affordable. And they said, an independent Scotland could

set up a commission to set the right retirement age for people here.

I think Gordon is making a false comparison. He is drawing a false

analogy between what we spend on pensions and UK National Insurance.

The cost of pensions come from general taxation, not just national

insurer and is. We know that Scotland pay in 9.5%, and the point

that we have 8.8% of pension costs means that we know that pensions are

affordable. Workers across Scotland have already

protested against pension train -- changes, but advocates say that we

would be better off than the rest of the UK.

Pensions can be afforded in Scotland, this has been

independently confirmed. I think generally in Scotland, people in

Scotland will look at the record of Scotland of looking after people,

and think that an independent Scottish parliament is a better deal

for looking after Scotland's older people than anything possible under

the Westminster system. The former Prime Minister's

contribution was already making headlines this morning. Although the

English decisions suggested that millions of pensions south of the

border already facing a future on less than the minimum wage, which

was perhaps not the message he wanted us to hear.

I'm joined now from Aberdeen by SNP MP Eilidh Whiteford, who speaks on

work and pensions, and from Edinburgh by Labour Finance

Spokesman Iain Gray MSP. Good evening. First of all, Eilidh

Whiteford, what do you think of this intervention by Gordon Brown? Do you

think that he will put people off voting for independence? You are

saying today that he was economically illiterate.

Today we saw scaremongering. The idea that we pay for pensions out of

oil and gas revenues is ridiculous. The starting point of the debate has

to be that the UK's rate on pensions is a very poor, it is one of the

lowest in Europe, with a large gap between earnings and pensions. So

letters not pretend that pensions are good at the moment, but letters

look at how to face the future. -- let us look.

He says that Scotland to pay 8% of UK National Insurance but receive 9%

of the benefit. You have to look at the overall act, and not just take

one component out of it. Obviously, Scotland is in a better economic

position than the rest of the UK at the moment, getting less than we pay

out. Pensions are more affordable in Scotland, because we are paying a

lower proportion on social protection as a whole. That does not

solve the entire pensions situation, because we do have

challenges, but my argument would be that it is better that we find

solutions and we would be better doing that for ourselves and taking

that forward through the Scottish parliament were we can make

decisions for our own interest. Letters speak to Iain Gray. We have

been seeing the UK's record of pensions there and it is interesting

to see Gordon Brown's intervention in this debate, with his actions in

1999, accused of breaking thousands of pensions with the tax that he

devised. The is he right to say this?

He lifted a million pensioners out of poverty. Scottish pensioners know

what Gordon Brown did for them. He is absolutely the right person to

make this argument and it is an argument that he has made before.

The way pensions work, those that work and pay in and learn more pay

more, and that allows us to pay out something that allows a decent

standard of living. In retirement, that is more secure and it works

better if it is spread over a bigger pot, ?60 million rather than ?5

million. The difference today is that he has brought forward the

figures to talk about that. Unlike the figures that Eilidh Whiteford

just quoted to you, the figures are different so the ones that she gave

you. The Scottish Government's most recent figures showed that Scotland

pay 9.1%, more than our fair share, but we get 9.3%. Every independent

look at Scotland's financial situation if we became independent

says that the fiscal deficit would mean public cuts in spending.

He says that your figures are out of date. If you look at the figures for

the past five years, Scotland has paid 9.5% of the revenue compared to

the population percentage. If you look at that as a pattern over the

last 30 years, you will see that Scotland's contribution has

outperformed the UK in every single one of the last 30 years. This is a

discussion about Scotland's future and whether or not letting

Westminster doing nothing to tackle our demographic issues is OK, or

whether we should make the decisions ourselves in Edinburgh.

Letters to -- we should discuss these demographic issues. Gordon

Brown was saying that the ageing population and the falling working

population was significant. You seem to be putting that aside.

The Office for National Statistics suggests that that gap is actually

very small. It considers it quite a marginal difference in the longer

term. Pretending that we cannot do anything about that is wrong,

because the challenge is to improve our productivity and improve our

economic strength, because that is really, at the end of the day, what

makes our pensions and other aspects of affordable.

Iain Gray, on that aspect, Gordon Brown was talking about

demographics, but the report quoted says that demographic change is not

a significant point in arguing about economics and independence.

They have to would omit that this is a significant problem going forward

for Scotland. -- they have to admit. Scotland is ageing faster and the

proportion of older, retired people to working people is going to get

worse. The white paper solution is that, from somewhere, simply because

of independence, we will suddenly have many more working age people

working in Scotland. A calculation has been done this week that

suggests that far from being marginal, in order to achieve this,

you may need as many as 1 million new workers in the workforce by the

middle of this century. That is far from marginal or stop the white

paper is silent on where these people will appear from. This is

like the Kevin Costner film, build it and they will come.

The challenge is a challenge for every country. But it is more

significant for us. It is 1%, it is hardly a huge problem. We can only

tackle this by improving our economy.

Gordon Brown was talking about the sharing of our resources and picking

out the five key aspects of the United Kingdom that he was

promoting. He was saying at the SNP conference that you are really

trying to appeal to the Labour voters. That is not the universal

benefits, the health, that is a Labour issue. That will be hard for

you to get across in independence? Labour seem to be saying different

things north and south of the border. In Scotland is they say that

we need the rest of the UK to have a health service, but he is selling of

-- he is saying that it is different, I am appalled about what

is happening in England and I do not want that to happen in Scotland. We

need to protect the services and the best way to do that is to make

decisions in our own interest. The wider point is that he was

saying that he was ending the Charente and joining Better

Together. -- ending the debate and joining Better Together. There seem

like a lot of challenges together -- today.

The fundamental things that have driven his politics all his life is

that by sharing the resources, those who can pay in more, those who need

it are able to receive protection through pensions or benefits. That

is at the core of everything that Gordon Brown has done in politics.

It is at the core of Labour Party politics. It is a positive argument

that the United Kingdom. With the protection of being part of that

bigger shared resources than we really can have the best of both

worlds. That is the principle he was talking about today. When he talks

about it, he will be heard. Now, if you were watching this

channel two hours ago, you will have seen Jackie Bird's documentary about

the way women are seeing the referendum. There is some polling

evidence that female voters are less likely to vote yes than men. Or

perhaps they just spend more time coming to a decision. Either way,

campaigners recognise the potential game-changing significance. In case

you missed it, here is a wee flavour of the documentary.

Here is your classic female archetype. Women planning one of the

biggest days of their lives. Who is more likely to be thinking about

future choices than someone preparing to get married? It is the

staff of the Better Together campaign's dreams, hundreds of women

planning for a union. But this had nothing to do with politics until we

turned up. I have made up my mind. I am against. I have not made a

decision. I am quite worried about the decision. Have male relatives

made up their mind? I think they have. Most women don't usually flock

to Tom thumping public meetings. The first task for the campaigners is to

round up enough women to inspire them. I am off to a village tucked

away on the coal peninsulas in Argyll. -- Cowall. We believe I yes

vote offers the best hope for our future generations. Let's take the

leap of faith and trust that what we will get in the long run will be

good. I know everything on television is scaremongering because

most of the major banks and things probably would not have the money to

relocate to London as they could not afford the rent down there. Despite

the undoubted passions for the Women for Independence grip, tensions

prevail. Could the gender difference be to do with the way we think? It

seems that the cognitive differences between how male and female brains

work are less important than learning to read or each. So if

there is a different approach between men and women, it doesn't

come from nature but from nurture, it is something we learn.

My two guests are still here, the SNP's Eilidh Whiteford and Labour's

Iain Gray. We were hearing that women are six or 7% less likely to

support independence than men? I am speaking to women and men on the

doorstep and at public meetings. It is important we don't stereotype

women in this. There are as many reasons for not having made up their

mind yet for men and women. I would not want to put a stereotype on

this. At the same time, I think there are issues affecting women

more than men, as they tend to be more represented in low-paid

workers. So the minimum wage would be one example. They are all to

aware of the money they have really lost out on over the last five years

when it has not kept pace with inflation. Do you think women are

being stereotyped in this debate? I think that can happen. There clearly

is something going on as it would appear there is a difference in

voting intentions in these polls. Whether that persists or prevails by

September, we don't know. I broadly agree that we cannot assume that all

women are going to decide the same things. One of the mistakes that

political strategists sometimes make is that women are only interested in

what they deem to be women's issues. Saw an offer on childcare

would make up for jobs and the economy. That is certainly the

stereotype and that has to be avoided. But I don't really know.

There seems to be some difference here in the way that men and women

are going to vote. I am not sure anyone knows why that is for sure.

It seems to be natural, not nature and it is something that women learn

about? I didn't see the documentary tonight, so I am a little in the

dark as to what was said in that. Women have a lot to gain from a Yes

Scotland full. -- vote. With more cuts on the way, women should be

looking very closely at this. We were talking about pensions

before... Sorry, we have to leave it there.

Now a quick look at tomorrow's front pages.

That's all from me tonight. I'll be back tomorrow. Goodnight.

More showers around as we go through the rest of the week. Any showers

this evening will buy a through the night. By morning, south-west

England and Wales will be covered with this rainband. More sunshine in

Northern Ireland. Some intense downpours over Northern Ireland in

the evening. Low cloud towards the north-east of Scotland. Much of the

eastern side