30/08/2011 Newsnight


30/08/2011

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.


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Tonight, would you take abortion advice from a group that thinks the

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procedure is wickedness. As the Government plans to put counselling

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into the hands of independent advisers, this programme reveals

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that an advice group his training manual that believes that abortion

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was a sin. The thing they said was that God had given me another

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chance. We ask is it ever possible to offer unbiased advice on such an

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emotive subject. Gunfire on the streets of Syria,

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Ramadan is over tomorrow, instead of celebrations tomorrow, they will

:00:46.:00:50.

bury the dead. Does Libya's revolution offer a blueprint for

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Syria. Where does this leave western intervention, we ask

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Douglas Hurd and Jonathan Powell. Do not go gentle, would you like

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your mortal remains freeze-dried or lick quified, the environmental way

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to say goodbye. If you find yourself pregnant and confused

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about an abortion, the chances are you will be offered counselling, up

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until now the majority of services were offered by the British

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Pregnancy Advisory Services or Marie Stopes. Organisations that

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carry out abortions themselves, is that fair? The Government has

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decided not. It says it will change the rules so the clinic that is

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offer termination services are not tasked with advising. But who will

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fill the gap? Can abortion advice ever be impartial. We have

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discovered the main umbrella group claiming to offer independent

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advice, Care Confidential, is using a training manual that believes

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abortion is wickedness. It is one of the most difficult decisions a

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woman will ever have to make. Who helps her make that decision is

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about to be put into the hands of politicians. A cross-party alliance,

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backed by the Government, wants to see abortion providers striped of

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their powers to advise pregnant women, and instead, they want to

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choose the organisation that is they think are more independent.

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The Government is in danger of opening up a very unethical

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practice, and practice kpwipbs the best interests of vulnerable women.

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The important thing is to take it away from abortion providers, so

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the counselling can be truly independent. If a woman wants an

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abortion, it has to be signed off by two doctors she can be offered

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counselling if they think she needs further help. New proposals would

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like all women offered free independent counselling before they

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can have a termination. It is the question of who can provide

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independent counselling that is proving to be so hugely

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controversial. One of the groups that is supposed

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to offer this kind of non-biased counselling is Care Confidential,

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it is the biggest independently- funded crisis pregnancy charity in

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the UK. They have more than 130 affiliated centres. They say they

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don't moralise. But we have had access to their training manual,

:03:21.:03:31.
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which describe abortion as a We spoke to one woman who said her

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Care Confidential counselling session was more like a sermon.

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Bringing God into the counselling space is highly inappropriate. Non-

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directive counselling, I have had non-directed counselling for

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pregnancy related issues before, I know what it's like. It respects

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the client. You don't bring religion into the counselling space.

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So the moment they mentioned God, I knew something wasn't quite right.

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I was told things like it wasn't, I was actually a mother now, even

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though I was only six weeks pregnant. My baby, they didn't

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refer to it as a pregnancy, it was baby, even at just six weeks, had

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everything, DNA, absolutely everything, the whole blueprint,

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and I was a mother now. Eventually this kind of expanded to the fact

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that abortion just was not a solution, it was not the answer.

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Just all sorts of very anti- abortion views were just being

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thrown at me, really. Care Confidential say they acknowledge

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the language they used is now outdated and will rewrite the

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training manuals. The chief executive said they want to bring

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100 centres up to a commissioning standard, to every advisor would

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provided unbiased counselling support. There is already an

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unbiased professional service, regulated and inspected by the

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Department of Health itself. Which on its website warns against going

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to the independent abortion providers, who have been showing

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time and time again, through misery shopping centre visits from giving

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controversial advice in seeking to tell women not to seek abortion

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when they want one. Critics say change is needed

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because Marie Stopes and other groups have a vested interest in

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women having abortions. At the moment counselling seems to be the

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first step on abortion conveyor- belt. Abortion providers give the

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impression that abortion is no big deal. At Life, from the many women

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we see at post-abortion counselling, we know it has serious consequences

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for many, many women. Going to clinic that is are giving the

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impression this is no big deal, it is perhaps too easy to get into a

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process without fully thinking it through. Attempts to change the

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abortion laws have failed in the past. The most recent example was

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trying to lower the limit from 24- 22 weeks. This time it is slightly

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different, because these changes can be made without a vote. Which

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means the Government is open to criticism that it is trying to make

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radical changes without political scrutiny. Abortion charities say

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the changes would only delay thousands of terminations and put

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women at greater risk. But pro-life groups say it could actually

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prevent 60,000 terminations every year. With such polarised views,

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are any of these groups really qualified to be truly independent.

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We put our report to the Department of Health. They said no minister

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was available, as they are still finalising their proposals. They

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:07:28.:07:30.

Meanwhile, let's discuss it further here. Joining me now is the

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Conservative MP, Stewart Jackson, backer of Nadine Dorries's

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amendment. And from Manchester, Labour MP. Welcome. Do you believe

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that a group which believes that abortion is undoubtedly a

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wickedness that grieves God's heart, can offer independent advice?

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I think there will be a plethora of independent advisers and

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counsellors coming in to give advice and counselling on abortion

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if the amendment goes through. about this group, this is Care

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Confidential, clearly the biggest advisor, that says it is a

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wickedness that grieves God's heart? Clearly there will be a

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range of views, and nuances. That is not range of view. As Care

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Confidential themselves have said, they will be changing their manual,

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and they will be presenting a different picture to women that

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seek their advice and counselling. But this is primarily about choice,

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it is about impartiality, it is breaking that fiscal link, that

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conflict of interest between people, as we did in the pension industry,

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20-odd years ago, between people who give advice and also people

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then selling financial products. Just to clarify. Abortion is much

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more important. Do you think those people are appropriate, this is a

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company offering a service they call unbiased and their training

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manual, the manuals their own advisers learn from, preach that it

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is undoubtedly a wickedness that grieves God's heart. Is that a

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suitable agency to go to? You will always be able to bring forward

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anecdotes. It is not Anam he can tote, it is a report from a woman -

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anecdote, it is a report from a woman you heard in the report?

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have people going to Marie Stopes and BPAS who have told they have

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wrong advice. �60 million a year the two organisations receive a

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year to do 100,000 abortion as here. It ill behoves people who say they

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are in favour of women's choice, to oppose an amendment that will open

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up choice, and bring forward independence and transparency to

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the whole situation. Which is a very traumatic situation for many

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women. It is unrealistic to expect that these places that offer the

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service of abortion will not be swayed by the business they are in,

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isn't it? There is no empirical evidence to that effect, to show

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that this is the case in point. I am afraid, I'm very concerned about

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the proposed changes, behind it is an agenda, it is probably religious

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and morally based agenda to reduce the number of abortions. In all

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honesty, these people, Nadine Dorries and others, are not really

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concerned about giving women independent advice, what their

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agenda is to reduce the number of abortions, because they morally and

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religiously it is the wrong thing to happen. This is just surely a

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rebalancing of a system that is arguably already unfair, that as

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one woman said, makes going to a clinic seem like it is no big deal,

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when women are turning up for abortions? I think that's wrong as

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well. Because when a woman falls pregnant, who doesn't want to be

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pregnant, I'm sure she's probably getting a number of different bits

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of advice, her friends, GPs and others, she probably knows what she

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wants to do in the majority of cases. To suggest some how you will

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reduce 100,000 down to 40,000, so 60,000 people won't have abortions

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cleetly wrong. That is completely wrong, it shows the agenda behind

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it. Do you want to reduce abortions? It is about righting an

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anon-ly, which is women at the moment don't have an independent

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right to seek advice. Why is that righting it? You have seen what the

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agency said, they are the largest "independent" provider of that

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counselling service now, who else is there? The fact of the matter is,

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this is not a narrow agenda, it is backed by the majority of the

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public, many people in the health care sector, the British

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Association of Counsellors and psychotherapist, and right across

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the House of Commons. I'm talking practicalities, who else is there?

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There will be many other people that will come in to give that

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support. If you are asking me as a legislator, as Yasmin, it is not

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right that we see a social phenomenon, that has grown from 8

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4,000 in 1991, to 18 1,000 abortions in 2010, that we have no

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part in deciding that, I have to disagree. The argument and debate

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we should be having as a society is about the number of preing cities

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that are - pregnancies that are unwanted. To prevent those unwanted

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pregnancies, to work out how to educate people, even talk about be

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a nepbs, things of that nature - be a - be a stinnepbs, and things of

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that nature, by that stage women know what they want to do. We will

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set up quangos and charities, more money to be given for these so-

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called independent advisers when actually our energies should be.

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:12:54.:12:57.

That isn't the case. This is neutral money, it is going from one

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place to another. The real question in society is to address the number

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of unwanted pregnancies, how do we prevent that from happening. There

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is no point in changing the society and putting it back to 25 years ago.

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Most medical practitioners have said that this particular proposal

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is going to cause more problems, it will cause more delays and cause

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more dilemma and more harm to women. And for the Government now, which

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is preaching austerity, we haven't got the money for this. You

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certainly don't want to push women's decisions further along the

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line of their pregnancy? This is about putting women's choices,

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choices that are right for them in very traumatic circumstance, front

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and centre, the money has already been spent by the NHS. Urbaning

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certain places from giving advice, BPAS and Marie Stopes who do it at

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the moment, why is that more choice? We are challenging a vested

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interest. I can't understand why people who are supportive of

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women's choice, information, transparency and independence,

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should be against this amendment. The reason people support it across

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the House of Commons and the country, is because it is moderate

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and sensible. It is not part of an agenda. Do you have any evidence

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they encourage abortions among women who may have chosen not to?

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I'm not making the direct link, there is certainly a case to answer

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that there is a vested interest in elective abortions in BPAS and

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Marie Stopes. You have no evidence to prove that and make aspersions

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against people. There is a moral argument going on here, that is

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what people should be honest about. This isn't about want to be give

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women a choice, this is about the fact that increasing the social

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Conservatism, coming from America, coming into this country, and all

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they are trying to do is effect their agenda. You think this is a

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move of a Government that is anti- abortion? Yes, I think that is the

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move, I think that is intention of this movement. There is a 36%

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increase in funding to the Stopes clinic.

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As prayers mark the end of Ramadan in Syria, thousands of anti-

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Government protestors poured on to the streets. The security forces

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were ready for them. Seven activists are reported to have been

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killed, three shot dead today. It is inevitable perhaps that some

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sort of victory is reached by the rebels of Libya. Hope and a certain

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amount of pressure will have passed over the Arab world to Damascus.

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Western Governments will be relieved that things worked out as

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they did so far in Libya. What lesson has this intervention taught

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us. Where does it leave us for next time round? Does it offer any

:15:41.:15:51.
:15:51.:15:57.

Nobody's quite clear which root Libya's revolution will follow now.

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But plenty of French and British pundits have been quick to declare

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that this was a model way to get rid of a dictator.

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So, if it can be done in Libya, why not Syria? Today's religious

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festival of Eid, has given way to further protest and a bloody Syrian

:16:18.:16:24.

response. Syria's a lynch pin of the Middle East, if Syria goes up

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in smoke, then immediately you have problems in Lebanon, you have

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problems at the border between Israel and Syria, which has been

:16:32.:16:38.

quiet since 1973. One of the quietest borders around. So, all in

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all, we have picked a big problem, which was Libya, but in the context

:16:45.:16:55.
:16:55.:16:55.

of the Middle East, it was not the fundamental problem. Gaddafi had

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made himself pretty much a friendless dictator. The

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intervention against him was preceded by an Arab League vote,

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and followed by one in the UN Security Council. Neither body

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would be ready to vote for similar action against Libya.

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We have seen how a UN resolution was rushed to secure a military

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intervention in Libya, and the Arab League, which initially supported

:17:23.:17:27.

the UN resolution, was very quick to distance itself from the

:17:27.:17:33.

decision, given the turn that the military action was in Libya.

:17:33.:17:38.

It's true, the Turk, concerned about their border with Syria, have

:17:38.:17:41.

changed their language towards the outside Government, and so have the

:17:41.:17:46.

Russians. But many Arab countries are playing a waiting game, and the

:17:46.:17:49.

Syrian regime still has fulsome support from Iran.

:17:49.:17:55.

We have seen some of the Arab states, such as Saudi Arabia, who

:17:55.:17:58.

have withdrawn their diplomatic representatives from Syria, yet he

:17:59.:18:04.

still has some very major all Lois that Libya did not. Assad and Syria

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are not as diplomatically isolated as Gaddafi was in Libya. Syria has

:18:08.:18:12.

very close relations with Iran, very involved in Lebanon, and also

:18:12.:18:17.

with Hezbollah. So these are much stronger and direct allies than

:18:17.:18:23.

Gaddafi had in Libya. The Syrian-Iranian alliance,

:18:23.:18:28.

supporting groups like Hezbollah in Lebanon, or Hamas in Gaza, raises

:18:28.:18:33.

other problems for those who seek change of Government in Damascus.

:18:33.:18:36.

President Assad has a doomsday option of triggering a regional war

:18:36.:18:42.

with Israel, as a means of trying to divert dissent.

:18:42.:18:47.

To large extent that is the ultimate and most desperate card of

:18:47.:18:53.

Bashar al-Assad that he could play. Clearly he could play that card in

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collapsing the regime in Lebanon, which is a very rickety coalition,

:18:59.:19:05.

depending on Syria's good will. Clearly he could try to encourage

:19:05.:19:09.

the Hamas movement in Gaza to restart its missile offensive on

:19:09.:19:14.

Israel. There were some continuityive attempts to get

:19:14.:19:23.

marches, suppose - tentative attempts to get marches, on the

:19:23.:19:29.

border Iran Palestine and Israel to start conflict about the Golan

:19:29.:19:39.

Heights. If the diplomatic obstacles could

:19:39.:19:44.

be overcome, his security forces are a mightier foe than those of

:19:44.:19:49.

Libya. The Syrians are better equipped and organised. Bashar al-

:19:49.:19:54.

Assad remains the only successful republican dynast in the region,

:19:54.:19:57.

having succeeded his father, in part, through careful cultivation

:19:57.:20:04.

of the forces. There is no doubt that although Syria is run by

:20:04.:20:12.

effectively a minority of all watts, its powerful structure and reliance

:20:12.:20:16.

on the army is crucial, it has proved much more loyal to the

:20:17.:20:22.

regime than in the case of Libya. The strength of Syrian defences

:20:22.:20:27.

means that an air campaign would require a big American effort to

:20:27.:20:33.

overwhelm them at its start. As it stands today, the idea of US air

:20:33.:20:38.

strikes, enabling UN resolution, or even trade isolation, all seem

:20:38.:20:44.

remote. And the Assad Government sits secure in power.

:20:44.:20:48.

Mark is with me now. What do you think the outside world can do then

:20:48.:20:58.

to change Assad's regime? It is not a complete counsel of sis pair, but

:20:58.:21:02.

at the moment they are limited to - despair, but at the moment they are

:21:02.:21:06.

limited to small turns on the screwdriver. We have seen a small

:21:06.:21:11.

number of Syrian officials with their assets frozen and bank

:21:11.:21:16.

accounts frozen, that take it is to 33. Some Arab countries withdrawing

:21:16.:21:21.

ambassadors. That kind of thing. A real tipping point where a major

:21:21.:21:25.

part of the country breaks free, or a majority part of the army breaks

:21:25.:21:32.

free hasn't happened. We have seen the Syrian army, unlike the Libyan

:21:32.:21:36.

forces back in Februaryia which fractured, the army seems prepared

:21:36.:21:42.

to go out and kill its people week after week without major fractures.

:21:42.:21:45.

The people come out to protest their outrage and points of view

:21:45.:21:49.

week after week and it continues. We are trying to draw parallels

:21:49.:21:52.

between the situation we have seen in Libya and that which could occur

:21:52.:21:57.

in Syria. Is it possible to say if there was a key moment of

:21:57.:22:00.

intervention from the west that actually made a difference?

:22:00.:22:02.

you're looking at outside intervention, where you're not

:22:02.:22:05.

prepared to put troops on the ground. Clearly that is one of the

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things that people extol about the Libyan model, you have to be quite

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modest in what it can achieve. I think you can narrow it down to the

:22:13.:22:18.

afternoon of the 19th of March, when French jets bombed Colonel

:22:18.:22:22.

Gaddafi's tanks as they moved into the outskirts of Benghazi. From

:22:22.:22:27.

that point on, the outcome was not clear, in a sense it wasn't clear

:22:27.:22:31.

that Colonel Gaddafi would be overthrown, what was clear is he

:22:31.:22:37.

wasn't going to reconquer Benghazi and tib bruk, and the other areas -

:22:37.:22:41.

toub bruk, and the other areas freed by the coalition. The best he

:22:41.:22:47.

could hope for then was partition, even those with little faith in it,

:22:47.:22:53.

was some de facto partition of the country that is what they hoped for.

:22:53.:22:58.

It could possibly happen in the Turk irk border area that a safe

:22:58.:23:06.

haven or humanitarian area could be secured with international help. We

:23:06.:23:10.

don't see that fracturing of the country, either geographically,

:23:10.:23:13.

ethically or along the lines of the forces.

:23:13.:23:19.

Joining me now is Douglas Hurd, the former Conservative Foreign

:23:19.:23:23.

Secretary, Jonathan Powell, Chief- of-Staff to Tony Blair, and Anne-

:23:23.:23:26.

Marie Slaughter, the former adviser to Hillary Clinton in the US State

:23:26.:23:36.
:23:36.:23:37.

Department. Let's up on some of the points there, the regional

:23:38.:23:41.

differences when you are looking at Syria rather than Libya. How

:23:42.:23:46.

constrained, for example, are we by the fact that Iran is backing this

:23:46.:23:54.

regime? That's part of the complex, of course it is. It is no good

:23:54.:23:59.

thinking of Sir Libya as a blueprint, and everyone - of Libya

:23:59.:24:03.

as a blueprint and everyone going on in that way. The two situations

:24:03.:24:06.

are desperately different from each other. You have to make up your

:24:06.:24:10.

mind in each case, separately, what is the best thing to do. The worst

:24:10.:24:14.

thing to do is use, and send your soldiers to kill and be killed,

:24:14.:24:18.

without any assurance that you are going to make the situation better.

:24:18.:24:23.

Of course it can't be a blueprint, Jonathan Powell, but there will be

:24:23.:24:27.

politicians looking at this now and saying well that did work, as far

:24:27.:24:31.

as we were able, we got lucky in Libya, can't the same be done in

:24:31.:24:34.

Syria? Intervention worked too in Kosovo, as you remember, and Sierra

:24:34.:24:38.

Leone, as well as in Libya. Intervention can make a difference.

:24:38.:24:43.

But you are leaving Iraq out of that? I would come on to Iraq.

:24:43.:24:48.

Intervention made a difference, it got rid of Saddam, it was the

:24:48.:24:51.

aftermath. Intervention would make a difference in Syria, undoubtedly.

:24:51.:24:55.

When you see the picks tures of the young people protesting on the

:24:55.:24:59.

streets and their extraordinary bravery in fighting the regime, and

:24:59.:25:04.

the brutality in putting them down, it is hard not to want to intervene.

:25:04.:25:08.

But can you do it practically. Tony Blair made the speech about Kosovo,

:25:08.:25:13.

he said there were five conditions, one is practicality, can you do it,

:25:13.:25:17.

clearly in Syria at the moment you can't do it. Anne-Marie Slaughter

:25:17.:25:22.

do you agree there is no serious entry into Syria as there was into

:25:22.:25:26.

Libya? I agree, we are not talking about military force in Syria,

:25:26.:25:32.

unless things got far, far worse. I think I disagree that we only have

:25:32.:25:35.

small diplomatic moves to make. There is a great deal more that we

:25:35.:25:42.

can do diplomatically, in terms of helping to build much more unity

:25:42.:25:47.

against Syria in the region. Working with turkey in particular,

:25:47.:25:52.

turkey has much - Turkey in particular, Turkey has much more

:25:52.:25:57.

lefrpbage, it has barely begun to use it. Working with - leverage, it

:25:57.:26:03.

has barely begun to use it. Working with other Arab League countries.

:26:03.:26:08.

What is important in Syria, Assad's days are numbered, it may take a

:26:08.:26:13.

long time, he will not survive that. Once that starts to become an

:26:13.:26:15.

inevitability, then the business community starts to think, wait a

:26:15.:26:19.

minute, where do I need to be. Even countries right now that are

:26:19.:26:23.

supporting the Syrian regime, like Russia, need to think, well wait a

:26:23.:26:26.

minute, we still want to use the port, if there is another

:26:26.:26:32.

Government in power, we better perhaps hedge our bets. And

:26:32.:26:38.

foinally, the - finally, the EU has only begun to apply diplomatic

:26:38.:26:41.

pressure, they haven't put important sanctions in place, those

:26:41.:26:45.

should be coming. I think there is a lot we can do that will help the

:26:45.:26:53.

protestors without actually using force. Do you think this requires

:26:53.:26:57.

American leadership. Is there any will in the US to lead on this one

:26:57.:27:01.

in Syria? Absolutely. Although I think the Europeans, and the Turk,

:27:02.:27:07.

have a very important role to play, but the US has been extremely

:27:07.:27:10.

active diplomatically, it was extremely active diplomatically in

:27:10.:27:17.

Libya, secretary Clinton worked very hard to keep the various

:27:17.:27:23.

coalitions together, not only in NATO, but with Cutter and UAE, and

:27:23.:27:29.

simply here, we have been out front imposing sanctions and pushinging

:27:29.:27:32.

the Europeans to impose sanctions and those on the Security Council.

:27:32.:27:36.

We want this to be on the model much more on Tunisia and Egypt,

:27:36.:27:40.

where ultimately the non-violent protests of these extraordinarily

:27:41.:27:44.

brave people, ultimately creates a situation in which the Government

:27:44.:27:51.

has to go. The point that was made was of

:27:51.:27:54.

military might and the Syrian regime's capability and capacity to

:27:54.:27:57.

kill its people week in and week out. Very different to that of

:27:57.:28:02.

Libya? Very different. So it is not a blueprint exactly, what we have

:28:02.:28:07.

just heard from the American side is, I think, sensible. You

:28:07.:28:12.

gradually build up the pressures. You have to get agreement to

:28:12.:28:17.

achieve anything in the way of pressures, that is why it is a slow

:28:17.:28:23.

business. I think the significant phrase that you used was

:28:23.:28:27.

"ultimately". This will take time. Assad is in quite a strong position,

:28:27.:28:30.

he has himself in quite a strong position. But fundamentally he's in

:28:30.:28:34.

a weak position, because fundamentally he cannot command the

:28:34.:28:38.

loyalty of the majority of Syrians. But he has Iran behind him, and

:28:38.:28:43.

nobody wants to anger Iran, what do you make of this idea of a

:28:43.:28:47.

manufactured regional war with Israel to divert attention? I don't

:28:47.:28:54.

think that's out all likely. He has a problem. He's not handling it

:28:54.:29:00.

well. That problem may ultimately be his downfall. We should bring

:29:00.:29:06.

that day closer if we can. And the diplomatic activity that we have

:29:06.:29:10.

heard about, economic activity, we and the French and the Americans,

:29:10.:29:17.

are in the lead in the UN trying to build up these pressures, how fast

:29:17.:29:21.

we can go will defend on how much progress we make. This question of

:29:21.:29:25.

foreign policy is a reaction and pendulum to what has gone before

:29:25.:29:30.

really. In essence, what you did under Tony Blair, was a reaction to

:29:30.:29:36.

what Douglas Hurd didn't do in the Balkans? I think that's right, we

:29:36.:29:39.

tried non-intervention in Bosnia with disastrous consequences,

:29:39.:29:43.

sometimes you have to be ready to intervene, as we did in Kosovo. It

:29:43.:29:49.

was very successful. Bosnia was a different situation. Of course it

:29:49.:29:54.

is, it was personally a mistake not to intervene in the case of Bosnia,

:29:54.:29:58.

many people died as a result. In Kosovo we were criticised for

:29:58.:30:05.

intervening but it did save many lives. There is always the pendulum

:30:05.:30:08.

of interventionism. After Iraq we have heard said no more

:30:08.:30:12.

interventionism but we have seen it in Libya, quite quickly after.

:30:12.:30:16.

does that tell you people haven't lost their appetite for

:30:16.:30:19.

intervention. When you see people dying on the streets, not losing

:30:19.:30:23.

the fear of being killed still going out there, this regime will

:30:23.:30:26.

fall, it is a question of when. talk about the pushes that came

:30:26.:30:31.

from Hillary Clinton, certainly we saw a lot of reluctance of

:30:31.:30:36.

President Obama to get involved, it was led by Cameron and Sarkozy?

:30:36.:30:40.

z and indeed from the American point of view, and given we have

:30:40.:30:45.

troops in Iraq and fighting actively in Afghanistan. President

:30:45.:30:50.

Obama had no interest in getting involved in a third military

:30:50.:30:53.

conflict, anywhere, much less in another Muslim country. On the

:30:53.:30:59.

other hand, as Jonathan just said, when you saw the prospect of tanks

:30:59.:31:07.

and plans overrunning a city of 750,000 people and Gaddafi saying

:31:07.:31:11.

he's going door-to-door to eradicate opposition. All the

:31:11.:31:14.

leaders involved, including President Obama, realised this was

:31:14.:31:19.

going to be potentially, on his doorstep. This massacre was

:31:19.:31:24.

something he could prevent and if he didn't act it was going to be

:31:24.:31:31.

partly on his hands. That, plus the diplomatic pressure, allowed for

:31:31.:31:33.

military force. If this was Tony Blair now, what would be his

:31:33.:31:37.

response, I don't know if you talk to him regularly about Syria?

:31:37.:31:39.

would be arguing with the American President for thinking about how

:31:39.:31:46.

you put the maximum pressure on here. What does that mean? The sort

:31:46.:31:48.

of measures Anne-Marie Slaughter was talking about, she didn't rule

:31:48.:31:52.

out military pressure later on. If the neighbours take a different

:31:52.:31:55.

attitude, if Syria's other neighbours become more intervention,

:31:55.:32:00.

there may be scope. The prize is, if this regime fall, Iran is next.

:32:00.:32:04.

I know you run a mile from this side of a blueprint, what impact do

:32:04.:32:08.

you think Iraq in all of this has had on our intervention now? Iraq

:32:08.:32:14.

was a blow to the concept of intervention. Jonathan is quite

:32:14.:32:17.

right, the concept won't go away. Whenever people see horrible things

:32:17.:32:21.

happening on the screen, they will say we must do something about it.

:32:21.:32:25.

I'm very familiar with that in Bosnia. There we took the view,

:32:25.:32:32.

after listening to a lot of advice, that we would not be able to impose

:32:32.:32:37.

a solution by force. But each case is different, Kosovo, Sierra Leone,

:32:37.:32:42.

we have heard about, successful, limited, but successful operations.

:32:42.:32:46.

Thank you all very much indeed. This evening the Foreign Secretary,

:32:46.:32:53.

William Hague, announced that the UN would be releasing $1.5 billion

:32:53.:32:57.

Libyan Dinar being held in EU banks. This is a country starting from

:32:57.:33:01.

scratch now. Few people in libabout will be old enough to remember

:33:01.:33:05.

anyone other - Libya, will be old enough to remember anyone other

:33:05.:33:10.

than Colonel Gaddafi ruling their country. Questions now focus on how

:33:10.:33:19.

to rebuild a battered country and how to rule.

:33:19.:33:23.

After the siege of the cities, the siege of the banks.

:33:23.:33:28.

This is the new frontline for many Libyans, the fight for money, in a

:33:28.:33:34.

country bereft of funds. As Ramadan ends, and the Eid holiday begins,

:33:34.:33:37.

they are desperate for cash to buy something special for their

:33:37.:33:43.

families. But Libya's earned nothing for months. Its assets,

:33:43.:33:48.

held abroad, are still mainly frozen. TRANSLATION: For myself as

:33:48.:33:52.

a man, I don't mind, even if I don't have enough money, but my

:33:52.:33:57.

children, my children will suffer. The children will be very upset if

:33:57.:34:02.

they did not receive Eid. My salary since February we haven't received

:34:02.:34:09.

a salary, just the bank give us part of the money until we get the

:34:09.:34:12.

problem over, we get our salary after. That we are still waiting

:34:12.:34:19.

for the money because of the frozen money, you know.

:34:19.:34:26.

Who would be a bank manager in Libya today. He can allow each

:34:26.:34:31.

customer 150 Dinars as maximum, about �70, there are not enough

:34:31.:34:35.

bank notes to pay in full. TRANSLATION: The companies and the

:34:35.:34:39.

private companies and Government money have a delay. So that's why

:34:39.:34:44.

it is very difficult to serve people. You have to release some of

:34:44.:34:49.

the frozen money, hard currency, and local currency. Because we are

:34:49.:34:54.

desperate. While there is no money here,

:34:54.:34:59.

nearly a billion pounds worth of newly printed Libyan currency is

:34:59.:35:04.

still impounded in Britain. Part of an estimated $12 billion of Libyan

:35:04.:35:14.
:35:14.:35:16.

assets in the UK, and �100 billion worldwide. $1 billion has been

:35:16.:35:21.

released by the union countries so far.

:35:21.:35:29.

What are your reserves of hard currency now? Let me say it this

:35:29.:35:35.

way. We have plenty of money here, but most of the amount is within,

:35:35.:35:41.

is in the safes of the merchants and businessmen, in their safes and

:35:41.:35:50.

their houses. But, I think, we have a very big amount of money in

:35:50.:35:59.

Britain. Printed money, you know, I expect it will come back very soon,

:35:59.:36:06.

many in the very coming days. for the rest, all the rest of the

:36:06.:36:10.

assets abroad, when realistically will you start to receive those?

:36:10.:36:16.

When you look to the history of what happened in the other

:36:16.:36:21.

countries similar to Libya, like Iraq and Iran, I think it will be,

:36:22.:36:30.

it will take a long time. But I think it will maybe take not less

:36:30.:36:40.
:36:40.:36:40.

than six weeks. For now, the simple joy of

:36:40.:36:45.

liberation is enough for most Libyans.

:36:45.:36:50.

Late at night hundreds have dashed to the port in Benghazi, to catch a

:36:50.:36:54.

glimpse of newly released political prisoners who just returned by boat

:36:54.:37:00.

from Tripoli. For years they were incarcerated in Gaddafi's most

:37:00.:37:04.

notorious jail. But soon thoughts will have to turn to building the

:37:04.:37:12.

new Libya, after 42 years of decay. The euphoria here is intense, the

:37:12.:37:16.

question is, can the victorious rebels build a new Libya that will

:37:16.:37:22.

justify and fulfil these people's expectations.

:37:22.:37:27.

Here's a question to make you choke on your cocoa, if you don't fancy

:37:27.:37:34.

being buried or cremated after you shuffle off your mortal coil, how

:37:34.:37:39.

about being freeze fried or liquefied. Scottish developers say

:37:39.:37:46.

it is a more ecological alternative to the flaisms. Freeze-drying is

:37:46.:37:53.

being mooted in - flames. Freeze- drying is being mooted in Sweden.

:37:53.:37:57.

We look at the alternatives to cremation.

:37:57.:38:03.

Welcome to The Andrew Marr Show McQueen Funeral Home in St

:38:03.:38:06.

Petersburg Florida, it is a family run place that tries to celebrate

:38:06.:38:16.

rather than mourn the dead. Inside a piano plays funeral favourites.

:38:16.:38:26.
:38:26.:38:27.

While screens display pictures of the dearly departed. After the

:38:27.:38:33.

services the bodies are cremated in furnaces to the rear, where

:38:33.:38:37.

employees have to wrestle with the combined heat of the fires and the

:38:37.:38:43.

sweltering Florida summer. But there's now an inKong grus addition,

:38:43.:38:53.
:38:53.:38:55.

a shiny stainless steel machine in a bright room. This is the

:38:55.:38:59.

Resomator, developed in Scotland but used in Scotland for the first

:38:59.:39:02.

time. None of us like talking about death or what comes after,

:39:02.:39:06.

something has to be done with our mortal remains. For the

:39:06.:39:09.

environmentally conscious amongst us, this might offer a better

:39:09.:39:13.

alternative. This is how the machine will work when it is up and

:39:13.:39:23.

running in a few weeks time. The bodies goes in a silk coffin, it is

:39:23.:39:28.

heated up and everything is dissolved, all that is left is bone,

:39:28.:39:33.

that can be ground and made into a powder to be given to the family.

:39:33.:39:39.

Critics say it is washing a loved one down the drain, not say the

:39:39.:39:43.

designers. There is no DNA in the liquid, simply chemical, it will

:39:43.:39:49.

eventually go to the river, out to the sea, up as clouds and down as a

:39:49.:39:54.

rain, the hydrological cycle, similar to all other processes.

:39:54.:40:01.

designers say it will reduce greenhouse gas emissions by a third

:40:01.:40:06.

compared to cremation. It allows for tooth fillings, which means

:40:06.:40:13.

tooth fillings won't be vapourised and released into the atmosphere.

:40:13.:40:18.

The Florida funeral home owner is advertising it as green cremation.

:40:19.:40:26.

It reduces the amount of things going into the at moss officer, the

:40:26.:40:33.

- atmosphere, and the releasing of gases. We believe the families will

:40:33.:40:37.

find that of benefit and believe families will want to par take.

:40:37.:40:41.

believes there will be a market here and elsewhere. We will be very

:40:41.:40:46.

excited and proud that we were the first ones to introduce it. We are

:40:46.:40:52.

happy that our legislature in flour dafs the first one to approve this

:40:52.:40:57.

type of cremation. I understand it is not accepted yet in the UK, we

:40:57.:41:01.

are hopeful once they see how successful it is in Florida and

:41:02.:41:09.

other parts of the country, the UK will embrace Resomation, and they

:41:09.:41:13.

will accept it there, it will make us proud to be the first one to

:41:13.:41:16.

start. This is not the only alternative to cremation that might

:41:16.:41:21.

be coming our way. A rival process called Promession involves freeze-

:41:21.:41:25.

drying our remains. So far it has only been tested on pigs. To get an

:41:25.:41:34.

idea of how it works. I went down to the electron microskopy centre

:41:34.:41:40.

at imperial clon London. Imagine this is a dead person. I will put

:41:40.:41:44.

it into the liquid nitrogen and leave it there for a few minutes.

:41:44.:41:54.

The rose is so fragile that this is enough to shatter it.

:41:54.:41:57.

Promession is the brainchild of Swedish biologist, Susanne Wiigh-

:41:57.:42:02.

Mosack, she lives on an island off the Swedish west coast, and came up

:42:02.:42:07.

with the idea while composting in her garden. Her theory is what

:42:07.:42:12.

works for potato skins and apple cores could work for the human body

:42:12.:42:16.

too. This is what inspired me to really see if not only the kitchen

:42:16.:42:20.

and garden waste, but also everything organic, including us,

:42:21.:42:29.

could be treated this way to really become soil. She envisages a fully

:42:29.:42:32.

automated process, in which coffins are fed into the machine which

:42:32.:42:37.

takes care of the rest the exposing the body to liquid

:42:37.:42:41.

nitrogen, we can usely vibrate the body down to a powder in this

:42:41.:42:45.

seconds. That frozen powder is then going to the freeze-drying, where

:42:45.:42:54.

it becomes dry, and in that stage we allow the powder to go down into

:42:54.:43:00.

the coffin through a metal separation. So all the solid metals

:43:00.:43:05.

as spare parts, tooth fillings and whatever, is separated. Susanne

:43:05.:43:08.

Wiigh-Mosack is still to build a full commercial facility, but the

:43:08.:43:15.

designs are in place, and the manufacturers are ready. A square,

:43:15.:43:18.

biodegradable coffin has also been designed, into which the residue

:43:18.:43:24.

from the process will be placed, ready for shallow burial.

:43:24.:43:32.

fulfils the needs nature asks us to, it will become soil 6-12 months, it

:43:32.:43:38.

will be a beautiful process. Thee believes Promession will help

:43:38.:43:42.

us talk about death - she believes Promession will help us talk about

:43:42.:43:46.

death? We believe it is taboo, and especially if you have the chance

:43:46.:43:51.

to talk about this person-to-person. It seems to be very relieving. I

:43:51.:43:56.

would say it is nine times out of ten the same word is coming back,

:43:56.:44:00.

they find Promession very appealing. Death has never been appealing

:44:00.:44:04.

before, this must be something new. The arrival of these new

:44:04.:44:08.

technologies is going to give us options we could never have

:44:08.:44:11.

imagined. To burial and cremation we may have to add more

:44:11.:44:15.

possiblities. It is often said we now have more choices in our modern

:44:15.:44:25.
:44:25.:44:26.

lives. Soon, that may extend to what comes next.

:44:26.:44:36.
:44:36.:44:36.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds

:44:36.:45:18.

Let's just take you through the That's all for tonight. We leave

:45:18.:45:28.

you with a clip from the Sony Pictures and Martin score saysies

:45:28.:45:33.

tribute to the last of the great Mississippi delta bluesmen, who

:45:33.:45:42.

still toured the world into his 90s. He performs I'm A Gambling Man.

:45:42.:45:50.

# Lord I'm glambling man. No matter where I go.

:45:50.:46:00.
:46:00.:46:10.

# I'm glambling man Hello there, there is only one more

:46:10.:46:13.

day left of this poor summer. It looks like it is going to be

:46:13.:46:16.

another cool one. There will be some sunshine in the morning, maybe

:46:16.:46:18.

Scotland, Northern Ireland and towards the south west. Then the

:46:19.:46:23.

cloud will tend to fill in a bit as we head into the afternoon. Still

:46:23.:46:26.

bright for northern England, and a much better day for the North West

:46:26.:46:31.

than today. At least it looks like it will be dry. Dry through the

:46:31.:46:34.

Midlands through East Anglia and the south-east. Precious little

:46:34.:46:38.

sunshine. South coast may not do too badly, particularly in Cornwall

:46:38.:46:43.

and parts of Devon. Sunshine here. Temperatures no better than 18-19.

:46:43.:46:46.

If you are underneath the cloud, as most of Wales will be during the

:46:46.:46:49.

afternoon, then the temperatures will be a little lower. It will

:46:49.:46:53.

feel once again in Northern Ireland. Light winds, if you do see some

:46:53.:46:56.

sunshine it won't feel too bad. For most, if not all of the day, it

:46:56.:47:00.

will be cloudy. We will start with sunshine, and increase the cloud in

:47:00.:47:04.

Scotland. There may be one or two light showers dotted about, many

:47:04.:47:09.

places dry. It is a cloudy theme. Temperature as degree or so up on

:47:09.:47:13.

today. It warms up further on Thursday, with some brighter skies,

:47:13.:47:17.

and probably a bit more sunshine, especially towards the south. Here

:47:17.:47:23.

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