08/09/2011 Newsnight


08/09/2011

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Gavin Esler.


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How Conservative is the Conservative-led coalition, on

:00:08.:00:13.

everything from Europe to banking reforms, Free Schools to abortion

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and the NHS, is David Cameron paying too much attention to the

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Liberal Democrats and not enough to the Tories. We debate with a

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Conservative MP who is worried he might be, and Nick Clegg's Chief-

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of-Staff. Ten years after the attacks that

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changed America forever, General Colin Powell tells Newsnight where

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things went wrong. The Taliban turned out to be much more

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resilient and Al-Qaeda much more persistent in its presence than

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anyone anticipated back then. tough tactics by the police and the

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FBI in the wake of 9/11 led to things going sometimes too far.

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They went too far, it was entrapment, the Government set it

:00:51.:01:01.
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up. The story of a teenager who married Peter Tobin, how she

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escaped from being his first victim. When I had his son, I changed from

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being a potential victim to a possession. That is why I'm still

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alive, I think. Hello, good evening. One Conservative MP made a point of

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asking David Cameron if he would pay as much attention to his own

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party on Europe, as he has to the Liberal Democrats on other policies.

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Another Tory on Newsnight last night, accused the Liberal

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Democrats of blackmailing David Cameron on abortion. Nick Clegg has

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trumpetted how he believes the Liberal Democrats have changed Tory

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policy. What is the balance of power in the coalition, have the

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Liberal Democrats got more influence than they deserve, and

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how damaging to relations could that be. We will debate in a moment.

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For some Conservative MPs their party hasn't really done what it

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said on the tin. Tory blue, polluted and diluted by an alien

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orange. Their MPs can disagree on substantial issues. Free Schools or

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local authority schools? Local authority schools. Free Schools, I

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think, are excellent. As well as the more trivial. Salad or chips?

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You see I'm on a health binge at the moment, so salad. Chips. As one

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Conservative proved in the Commons yesterday, frustration,

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particularly on the right of the party, is coming to the surface.

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Speaker, the Liberal Democrats make up 7% of this parliament, and yet

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they seem to be influencing our Free School policy, health, many

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issues, immigration and abortion. Does the Prime Minister think it is

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about time he told the deputy Prime Minister who is the boss? I think

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nobody ever thought David Cameron would do lots of right-wing things

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in as a Prime Minister in a coalition. The frustration is the

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Liberal Democrats are having a lot more impact on Tory policy than

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most Tory MPs want to accept. He has a choice, he either talks to

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the right-wing, which he isn't doing, and placates them, or some

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say there will be a big explosion. There are plenty of areas of

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coalition tension, for instance, taxes for the rich, the

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Conservatives want to get rid of the 50p rate, the Liberal Democrats

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say only if you replace it with something as harsh. There will

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always be disagreement on Europe, the Conservatives are far more

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Euro-sceptical than the Euro- enthusiasts the Liberal Democrats.

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On health reform, the bill is through the Commons, although the

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Lords now promises to be a trickier proposition. There is conflict

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still on going on elected police commissioners, and whether to

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replace the European Convention on Human Rights, with a British Bill

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of Rights. One thing that gets Conservative

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MPs really hacked off, is when the Liberal Democrats, in their view,

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try to present themselves as the conscience of the coalition,

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preventing those wicked Tories from running riot. For start, they want

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their leader, David Cameron, to get a bit more robust in defending

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their honour. In Government the Liberal Democrats have been able to

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change things and influence Government policy, which means that

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the policy that is now being implemented, for example, in the

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NHS, is not what would have happened if the Conservatives had

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been in Government on their own. There is a very distinctive Liberal

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Democrat stamp on that policy. perhaps, for their own interests,

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have been portraying themselves in that light. But then the job is for

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the Conservative Party to stick up for its interests, and say on some

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of these things the Conservative Party has led the way in

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readdressing, or changing the Government's position. Something

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else that gets Conservative MPs fuming, is when their leader, David

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Cameron, describes the coalition, not as a regretable compromise, but,

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as actually the most perfect synthesis of ideas possible, and

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delivering far better policies than mere Conservatives could achieve on

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their own. Next week's commission report, the 50p tax, the CCTV,

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dealing with the riots, every day you are seeing the Tory Party and

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Number Ten at odds on a whole range of really, really important

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political issues. At some stage Number Ten has come to a view,

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after the next election, does he want the coalition to continue, or

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does he want to be the Prime Minister leading a right-wing Tory

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Government. At the moment I think it is probably with the former.

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Selected police commissioners was a policy the Conservatives brought to

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the coalition, and many Liberal Democrats don't much like it. The

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elections for these posts, in England and Wales, were due to be

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run at the same time as the local elections next May. They have now

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been delayed until next November. At a cost of �25 million. Today the

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Home Secretary was asked was this a result of the Liberal Democrats

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exercising their muscles. Is this not a decision that has been taken

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because Mr Clegg and the Liberal Democrats, have decided to put

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party issues above the high principles that you and the Prime

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Minister feel are important, in terms of democratic accountability?

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Not surprisingly the Home Secretary wasn't inclined to agree. The big

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coalition split is not actually between the parties it is between

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the benches, front and back. Broadly speaking, those with access

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to minister chauffeur, are far happier than those who have to get

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the bus. Nobody may have actually chosen this particular political

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shade, but trying to unmix its constituent colours may prove both

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messy and difficult. I'm joined by Norman Lamb, Liberal

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Democrat MP, Chief-of-Staff to Nick Clegg, and the Conservative MP.

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You were the first one who raised this, what are you worried about

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here? I have a particular worry on Europe, and for the Conservative

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Party, Europe is an exstrengths issue. And we - extension issue. We

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are in enormous change at the moment, the force of it is seizing

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to becoming the European Union, and coming to be the eurozone, as they

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move to having their own central finance and integrate more as the

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political force in Europe, we have an opportunity to bring powers back

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from Europe, and to have a relationship with which the

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Conservative Party and the country would be much more comfortable.

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don't think David Cameron gets that? I think David Cameron

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understands that, and I think we have an extraordinary, and really

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historic opportunity coming up. do you suggest he's not listening

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to you on that? What I hope will happen is we will take that

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opportunity to bring powers back from the EU and choose a

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relationship, where we, to a much greater extent, govern ourselves.

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In the way that Switzerland or norway have that free trading

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relationship with the EU, but make their own decisions. We are

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familiar with those arguments, but it is wait in which you phrased it,

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which the Prime Minister himself thought was quite ingenious, are

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you worried that he is making too many concessions to the Liberal

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Democrats? I think my major one, I have a worry on Europe, I also have

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a worry on the way the coalition is working. I think it is reempowering

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the Mandarins, it has reempowered Whitehall, there are many issues

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where I agree with the Liberal Democrats, and I want to see a

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radical decentralisation of power, and I believe in localism, and

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where the Whitehall Mandarins are unprepared to let go of power.

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don't suppose in your entire political life, people ever said

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Liberal Democrats are too powerful, shock, that is what the grumbling

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is among some Conservative backbenchers? It is a sue Neil

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Kinnock experience. Is it true - is a unique experience. Some of our

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viewers are saying that it suits both parties to pretend it is going

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on, it suits the Conservatives to pretend they are listening and it

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suits you to pretend you are tough. We do have influence, we have

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become more assertive as everyone has got used to the way in which

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coalitions can work. And we will fight for the things that we

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believe in. We won't overplay our hand, but we want fairer taxes. We

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will focus, not on cutting taxes for the wealthy, but on cutting tax

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for people on low and middle incomes. We will get the tax

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thresholds up to �10,000 by the end of the parliament. That is

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something the Liberal Democrats will deliver in Government. Do you

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see the point that was implicit in some of the report there, that if

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it work, the Conservatives will get the credit because they are

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listening and listening to you, you won't? There is a risk, of course,

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this is the first time we have done coalition since the Second World

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War in this country. We're all learning. But I think what we have

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to do, is we have to be responsible in Government, people want stable

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Government, and actually this coalition, at a very, very

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difficult time for this country, has provided stability. We will

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work constructively, where there are disagreements we will debate.

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The relationships are much more functional, than a single party

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Government, as has come out from Emmanuel Darley's memoir, the

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relationship - Alastair Darling's memoirs. The relationship at the

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heart was much more professional, it has played out more in public

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recently, but we will fight for that. How far do you think the

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Prime Minister is closer to Nick Clegg in some of these policies

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than to you? I think the Prime Minister and Nick Clegg are close.

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I think the problem with the coalition is it works at the top,

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but the quad and Nick Clegg can't take every decision. The quad, to

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explain, Clegg, Cameron, Alexeneder and Osborne. There, it is

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interesting, you have two Liberal Democrats, two Tories, the top

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people, that is 50% influence for the Liberal Democrats and they have

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9% influence in parliament. But six million voters and 23% of the vote

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of the last election. The share of MPs in parliament is a bit

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misleading. The point I wanted to make, at that level it works well.

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Below that the messages don't feed up in a bottom-up way. When the

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Government makes mistakes over things it can't push through, over

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forest, it take as long time to work out. And over health that was

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a big issue, a lot of Conservatives had a lot of concerns about. That

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we went through the whole of the committee and only decided to go it

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all again. That is a good point, both parties have to work harder at

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engaging backbenchers, and making sure they feel engaged in the

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process of Government. In that sense, how many of your fellow

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backbenchers share those kind of concerns? Let me give you an

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example, we were talking about police commissioners, I was

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involved several years ago in developing our policy of a directly

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elected individual. The Liberal Democrats called for directly

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elected police authorities. We have compromised on a directly elected

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individual with panel of local councillors to provide oversight.

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But, unfortunately, the substantive power, with regards to the budget

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setting, isn't exercised by either of those bodies, the decision

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whether to call a referendum. There is a fudge to a degree, that may up

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in - end up in the courts. The precept is not held by the panel,

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as I thought the Liberal Democrats would want, but with the Secretary

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of State. When I tried to put that issue I was told I couldn't because

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the Liberal Democrats wouldn't wear it. I put forward an amendment, and

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I get Liberal Democrats' support for that, who would much prefer the

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panel overseeing the budget setting rather than referring up to the

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Secretary of State. That is still in the bill, because the mand drins

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are having what they want. They are keeping power in the Home Office

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and the Whitehall, what we would like is to see the power pushed

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down to the lowest possible level. Because of the structure of the

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coalition. You have to be careful how you play this, in the end you

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don't want, the Prime Minister could call a general election at

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any time, and we haven't fixed parliaments yet, we you have to be

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careful? We have to have play our hand, and we can't overplay it. If

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you negotiate properly in Government, and you reach agreement,

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and then you move on. And I think the great thing about the coalition

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agreement, actually, is it provides an accountability for both parties.

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I think, you know, this is a real challenge to the old tribal

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politics we have been used to in this country. The idea you can work

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together with people from a different political tradition is a

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good thing. I think actually the public will find they like the

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results of it. Thank you very much.

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Now, tomorrow night Newsnight will have a specially extended edition,

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live from New York, as we approach the 10th anniversary of the

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September 11th attacks. Kirsty is there now. There is an atmosphere

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of reflection here in New York and indeed in the wider America, as we

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approach this weekend. America's reaction after the attacks still

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resonating around the world. One of the key players in the Bush

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administration, who helped define America's response, and sold the

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war in Iraq to the UN, is Colin Powell, Secretary of State at the

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time of the attacks. Today, in Washington, he spoke to our

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diplomatic editor, Mark Urban, about the impact of 9/11, saying

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the attacks were almost on a par with World War II, and Pearl Harbor.

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Clearly there was an initially a great outpouring of support from

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global organisations, world leaders, but I think as time went on, some

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people began to snipe from the margins, perhaps bs, sometimes over

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the choice of lan - perhaps, sometimes over the choice of

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language. The President quickly coined the "war on terror" phrase,

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and at one sage the word "crusade" being used. To what extent, you

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doing the international diplomacy, that the language was a hindrance

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to you? The President had many audiences to deal with. The

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international audience, principally my responsibility, but he had an

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outraged population. He had 300 million Americans, who saw what

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happened to thousands of their fellow citizen and we didn't know

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what else might be coming. So we had to make sure there was not

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another attack. But I think the President's choice of words were

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necessary for that moment. To tell the American people that this is an

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attack, that almost rises to the level of World War II and Pearl

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Harbor. To mobilise them, to go after this enemy, as if it was a

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war like World War II. I don't object to that language, the word

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"crusade" was used once, then we realised let's not do that one

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again, it creates the wrong sort of opinion in that part of the world.

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It was a wrong choice of words, it was not used again. Pretty soon the

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US take military action in Afghanistan and against the Taliban

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regime. It was a surgical type thing, with a few number of people

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on the ground, but today we see 100,000 US troops still there.

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Would you have conceived back then we would be here ten years later

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with a large number of American troops committed? I wouldn't have

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conceived is back in the fall of 2001, when we had this exciting

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faction of very sophisticated US technology and special forces,

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married up with people riding horses. It was the 10th century,

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and the 21st century, and it worked. But the Taliban turned out to be

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much more resilient and Al-Qaeda much more persistent in its

:17:42.:17:45.

presence than anyone anticipated back then.

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The invasion of Iraq was clearly a much more controversial episode,

:17:49.:17:53.

certainly in Europe. Do you, though, still believe that the invasion and

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the war was justified in the broader sense. I think we can't

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make a determination of, that history will make that

:18:02.:18:05.

determination. I'm not ducking the question. Think of it this way, a

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terrible dictator is gone, more than that, a terrible dictatorial

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regime is gone, Saddam Hussein is no more. Whatever concerns we may

:18:14.:18:18.

have had about weapons of mass destruction, from a regime that had

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them in the past and used them in the past, and there was no

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guarantee they would not make them in the future or use them in future

:18:25.:18:33.

to get out of sanctions, we don't have to worry about that ever again.

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What we worry about now is will the Iraqis put together a Government

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that is responsive tuelt people in Iraq, that takes - takes into

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account the differences in rack, that is not influenced by outside

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powers, although they have relations with outside power, they

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will be free. And will it serve the needs of its people. That is what

:18:57.:19:01.

we are waiting to see. The potential is there for that to

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emerge. If that does, one could think it was worth it. It sounds

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like you are worried at this late stage with the heavy investment of

:19:11.:19:15.

life and treasure, that the Iraqi Government might veer towards Iran?

:19:15.:19:19.

I didn't say that. You mentioned an outside power? Yes, I'm saying to

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make sure that doesn't happen. I'm not saying it is going to happen.

:19:23.:19:26.

It sounds like you are concerned? No, I didn't say it was going to

:19:26.:19:32.

veer towards. That what I think I said was that we want to make sure

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that a political and economic system emerges, and Government

:19:35.:19:39.

emerges, that is not under the thumb of an outside power. Iran?

:19:39.:19:45.

Iran, yes, Iran is the number one country I would be concerned about.

:19:45.:19:52.

I didn't say it was going to be under the thumb of Iran. It is a

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risk, in your view. Do you think American tanks riding into Baghdad

:19:58.:20:03.

in that extraordinary way, hastened the Arab Spring or slowed it down?

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It should have been a sobering moment for all of the other nations

:20:06.:20:13.

in the region, who were under single person leadership and had

:20:13.:20:18.

been for years. Who did not have the opportunity to elect their own

:20:18.:20:23.

leaders. To some extent it might have had an effect like that.

:20:23.:20:29.

you think the US is playing it about right, currently, with the

:20:29.:20:32.

Arab Spring. Do you think in places like Syria there should be a

:20:32.:20:36.

stronger lead from the US, how do you see the coming months

:20:36.:20:39.

developing? There are still unknowns out there as to how the

:20:39.:20:43.

Arab Spring will play out, and differently in every single country.

:20:43.:20:49.

Syria you have a dictator, who has the example of his father before

:20:49.:20:54.

him, and is being extremely vicious with respect to the protestors and

:20:54.:20:58.

the demonstrators. It remains to be seen, how that is going to play out.

:20:58.:21:01.

I think the United States and the international community, and the UK,

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and the United Nations, can apply more sanctions, I don't sense, from

:21:07.:21:13.

my perspective, that there is any inclination of sending in military

:21:13.:21:18.

force. Use sanctions and other methods to try to bring pressure on

:21:18.:21:22.

the Syrian regime on President Assad, to realise that this isn't

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going anywhere for you. Sooner or later you will find these people

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can't be held down forever. economy is very much front and

:21:31.:21:37.

centre for most Americans. Do you think with the 10th anniversary of

:21:37.:21:40.

9/11, this is a place where the page can be turned, to some extent,

:21:40.:21:48.

and the nation refocused on the economic priority? The nation has

:21:48.:21:51.

been refocused on the economic problems for the last several years.

:21:51.:21:56.

Everybody knows the real strength in this world comes from a strong

:21:56.:22:02.

economy that is creating jobs for your people. We are increasingly

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focusing on domestic issues here in the United States. This will not

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cause us to ignore the lessons of 9/11. We are not suddenly going to

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stop worrying about terrorists, stop thinking that Al-Qaeda, start

:22:13.:22:17.

thinking that Al-Qaeda is totally defeated. It has been badly damaged,

:22:17.:22:24.

but we have to remain on guard. Against the possibility of another

:22:24.:22:29.

terrorist attack, even while we are fixes our economy. The US would

:22:29.:22:33.

have weathered the financial crisis more easily if it hadn't spent

:22:33.:22:38.

thrillions on those wars? We had to deal with Afghanistan, that is

:22:38.:22:41.

where we were attacked from by Al- Qaeda. One could argue as to

:22:41.:22:45.

whether or not we needed to deal with Iraq or not. It would have

:22:45.:22:47.

been easy for Saddam Hussein to have avoided what happened to him,

:22:47.:22:51.

and that might not have been a good thing for the world, but he could

:22:51.:22:55.

have avoided it. We worked hard, and I worked hard to persuade my

:22:55.:23:00.

leadership that we had to take it to the UN and see if war could be

:23:00.:23:05.

avoided. Because there is always unknown consequences of a conflict.

:23:05.:23:12.

But he didn't take the get-out-of- jail card we gave him. The

:23:12.:23:16.

President wanted to go to war. I fully supported him. I went to the

:23:16.:23:20.

UN to make the case and fully supported him from there on in.

:23:20.:23:25.

Laden is dead, the US faces the crises, challenges in the region,

:23:25.:23:29.

the Arab Spring, Iran, is there some sense, though, in which the

:23:29.:23:35.

fact that the US ran up such huge costs in these conflicts a thing

:23:35.:23:40.

that gives him the last laugh, in some awful way? You think Osama Bin

:23:40.:23:45.

Laden is laughing somewhere? I just wonder whether the fact that the US

:23:45.:23:49.

is in such a difficult economic position, cannot contemplate

:23:49.:23:53.

engaging more fully now in the Middle East, origins Iran? This is

:23:53.:23:56.

your judgment. You are making these judgments but they are not my

:23:57.:24:02.

judgments. My judgment is that you are selling the United States short.

:24:02.:24:06.

We have incredible wealth in this country, it is just a matter of

:24:06.:24:11.

tapping into it appropriately, making sure we are investing in the

:24:11.:24:14.

right things. We can do all of those things to put us back on a

:24:14.:24:18.

sound financial footing and show the rest of the world that we still

:24:18.:24:22.

are a model and inspiration for the rest of the world. We can also deal

:24:22.:24:25.

with the challenges that might emerge from Iran and North Korea

:24:25.:24:29.

and places like that. The Iranians are going to face the same

:24:29.:24:33.

pressures, that all of the other countries in the region have faced.

:24:33.:24:37.

I once asked the Iranian Foreign Minister on the one occasion we had

:24:37.:24:41.

to chat with each other. I said what's your number one problem in

:24:41.:24:45.

Iraq, trying to give him a nice easy question that gets neither of

:24:45.:24:48.

us in trouble. And without hesitating in the slightest, he

:24:48.:24:52.

said, we have to create 600,000 jobs a year. He didn't say anything

:24:52.:24:57.

about we have to finish our nuclear programme, we have to create

:24:57.:25:00.

600,000 jobs a year. They have a young, growing population that

:25:00.:25:04.

needs jobs, ultimately those kinds of pressures will force changes in

:25:04.:25:08.

Iran that perhaps nobody is prepared to anticipate now, but

:25:08.:25:12.

will happen. I think these are historic forces at work and Iran

:25:12.:25:18.

will not be immune from these forces. I can assure you that the

:25:18.:25:21.

United States will be playing a role as this world emerges. General

:25:21.:25:28.

Powell, thank you very much. Colin Powell talking to our

:25:28.:25:32.

diplomatic editor earlier today. Since the 9/11 atrocities, the

:25:32.:25:37.

authorities in New York say they have disrupted more than a dozen

:25:37.:25:42.

terror plots in the state. There are real fears that Al-Qaeda could

:25:42.:25:47.

try another take to coincide with the anniversary. Newsnight has been

:25:47.:25:51.

given rare access to counter terrorism teams there. We have also

:25:51.:25:54.

been hearing about complaints from Muslim communities about aggressive

:25:54.:25:57.

tactics and allegations of entrapment, and manufactured

:25:57.:26:07.

convictions. New York on high alert.

:26:07.:26:12.

A city where the fear of attack, especially in the next few days is

:26:12.:26:18.

real. We're worried specifically about

:26:18.:26:21.

something happening on the anniversary of 9/11. New York is

:26:21.:26:25.

certainly at the top of the terrorist tart list as far as this

:26:25.:26:29.

country is concerned. - terrorist attack list as far as this country

:26:29.:26:32.

is concerned. New York is pioneering an aggressive, in your

:26:32.:26:36.

face, counter terrorism strategy. Flooding the streets with armed

:26:36.:26:40.

cops, and controversially, putting informanted undercover in

:26:40.:26:44.

communities. It is a strategy which has led to many arrests. But which

:26:44.:26:49.

critics say has gone too far. Raising concerns over entrapment.

:26:49.:26:54.

They were convicted, but it was entrapment, the Government set it

:26:54.:26:58.

all up. This is entrapment, when you are setting up your own

:26:58.:27:07.

American people, you didn't stumble on a cell, you created a cell.

:27:07.:27:12.

Times Square, early morning. Police from across the city assemble,

:27:12.:27:18.

squad cars from every precinct are given the signal to pull out. Three

:27:18.:27:24.

times a day, dozens of New York City police cars surge across the

:27:24.:27:28.

city like this to key locations. It is a show of force, designed to

:27:28.:27:32.

deter any terrorists, thinking of attacking the city. The police are

:27:32.:27:37.

determined to avoid the mistakes made before 9/11, when the CIA

:27:37.:27:40.

failed to pass on intelligence, which some believe may have

:27:40.:27:45.

thwarted the attacks. A new commissioner was appointed,

:27:45.:27:49.

who was not prepared to leave the protection of New York to others.

:27:49.:27:52.

His focus is on gathering intelligence, carrying out

:27:52.:27:59.

surveillance, and being seen on the streets. His concern, based on

:28:00.:28:04.

intelligence, captured from Osama Bin Laden's compound, is of an

:28:04.:28:07.

imminent attack. We're worried specifically about something

:28:07.:28:11.

happening on the anniversary of 9/11. We saw in some of Bin Laden's

:28:11.:28:17.

material that is there was discussion about the ten-year an

:28:17.:28:25.

remembersry. The assertive police style is visible, even underground,

:28:25.:28:29.

where heavily armed officers patrol. But there is also a less visible

:28:29.:28:34.

presence. Both the NYPD and the FBI use undercover officers, and a

:28:34.:28:40.

network of informants. This has led to growing criticism that they are

:28:40.:28:50.
:28:50.:29:00.

spying on Muslims, and even Newburgh, 60 miles north of

:29:00.:29:03.

Manhattan, a rundown town in upstate New York. Here the

:29:03.:29:07.

authorities say they disrupted a major plot, involving a group of

:29:07.:29:13.

local men. A hidden surveillance camera

:29:13.:29:17.

catches them inspecting a surface- to-air missile in a local lock-up.

:29:17.:29:21.

Another camera listens in as they talk about mounting a series of

:29:21.:29:31.
:29:31.:29:37.

The first target was to be this airbase, used by military aircraft.

:29:37.:29:40.

The men wanted to hit it with a surface-to-air missile. They also

:29:41.:29:45.

placed, what they believed were C-4 explosive, at synagogues in New

:29:45.:29:50.

York City. For the authorities, this was a deadly terrorist plot,

:29:50.:29:55.

stopped in its tracks. But, for some, here in the community, it was

:29:55.:29:58.

something entirely different. They question whether the men would

:29:58.:30:02.

really have been capable of planning and carrying out an attack,

:30:02.:30:06.

if it weren't for the encouragement of an undercover informant, working

:30:06.:30:12.

secretly for the FBI. For the critics, this was a classic case of

:30:12.:30:16.

entrapment. They were convicted, but it was entrapment. The

:30:16.:30:23.

Government set it all up. An informant, posing as a rich

:30:23.:30:27.

businessman, first appeared at this mosque in Newburgh, and immediately

:30:27.:30:31.

raised concerns among worshippers. He began to talk to some of the

:30:31.:30:35.

members of the community, and they would come back and say this guy is

:30:35.:30:41.

talking about Jihad, and this, that and the other, we automatically

:30:41.:30:47.

pleefd he was a federal agent. De- believed avenues federal agent. We

:30:47.:30:51.

decided to - believed he was a federal agent. We decided to led

:30:51.:30:56.

people in the community know to watch what they say. The informant

:30:56.:31:02.

latched on to the man on the left, a man active in Islam, and full of

:31:02.:31:08.

hatred with Jews and of the country that he lived. I'm an American

:31:08.:31:12.

soldier, right here in America, that the President don't even know

:31:12.:31:15.

about me. At the mosque he wasn't taken seriously. He really wanted

:31:15.:31:21.

to make some money. I think that's what really captivated him and the

:31:21.:31:31.
:31:31.:31:33.

others. It was a money thing. The informant, disguised in this

:31:33.:31:37.

video, offered the man a quarter of a million dollars to carry out the

:31:37.:31:41.

attack. With the promise of money, it wasn't difficult to find men in

:31:41.:31:43.

Newburgh prepared to help. Recruited late in the plot, they

:31:43.:31:51.

would be the lookouts. One of them was David Williams, his

:31:51.:31:54.

aunt says he was especially vulnerable. A petty drug dealer,

:31:54.:31:58.

not long out of prison, with a brother in need of expensive

:31:58.:32:02.

medical treatment. These guys ain't got a passport, drivers license,

:32:02.:32:09.

ain't got a pot to pis in and throw it out, they have no money. Are you

:32:09.:32:14.

going to the 99 cent store to find it? The informant who told them he

:32:14.:32:19.

had links to a terror group in Pakistan, supplied what the men

:32:19.:32:22.

thought were C-4 explosives, the authorities insist they follow

:32:22.:32:26.

careful rules when running sting operations like this. Everything we

:32:26.:32:33.

do from there is carefully crafted to ensure that we are not the ones

:32:33.:32:37.

encouraging the plot, all we are doing is providing the means to do

:32:37.:32:42.

that, and in this a controlled way that prevent the act of terrorism

:32:42.:32:45.

from happening. But Alicia McWilliams believes the whole

:32:45.:32:53.

operation was built on a tissue of lies. You didn't stumble on a cell,

:32:53.:32:57.

but you created a cell, it is your bombs and your C-4. They ain't got

:32:57.:33:02.

no money. The tactics used here are not

:33:02.:33:07.

unusual. Reportedly there have been over 200 successful terrorism

:33:07.:33:11.

prosecutions, involving informants in America, since 9/11.

:33:11.:33:15.

The US Attorney-General told me such methods are justified. There

:33:15.:33:20.

have been claims that there has been cases of near entrapment in

:33:20.:33:25.

terms of the use of informers against some of those home-grown

:33:25.:33:29.

cells. Those charges have been made, I'm really confident we have

:33:29.:33:32.

conducted ourselves consistent with the law. Always giving people who

:33:33.:33:36.

we have come in contact with an opportunity to not go down that

:33:36.:33:39.

road. They are always given the option to say I have changed my

:33:39.:33:43.

mind, I don't want to engage in this terrorist act, and what we

:33:43.:33:47.

have seen with the cases we have brought is people, of their on

:33:47.:33:52.

volition, made the termination they wanted to commit a terrorist act.

:33:52.:33:58.

But critics point to moments where the ringleader in the Newburgh case,

:33:58.:34:03.

appeared to have doubts. If this informant had not been involved in

:34:03.:34:08.

this cautious I guarantee you those four guys, if they were still

:34:08.:34:12.

together, would be on the avenue somewhere, or on the block

:34:12.:34:17.

somewhere, smoking marijuana, drinking beer and barbecue, that is

:34:18.:34:22.

what they would be doing. That is what they would be doing. They were

:34:22.:34:27.

the run of the mill type. That's a view rejected by the authorities,

:34:27.:34:31.

who arrested the men after they planted the fake bombs, and the

:34:31.:34:37.

trial jury who convicted them. Three were sentenced to 25 years in

:34:37.:34:47.
:34:47.:34:49.

jail, although the judge conceded, aspects of the case were troubling.

:34:49.:34:52.

This is the George Washington Bridge, very famous and very

:34:52.:34:57.

critical. It is always a potential target for terrorists. Despite the

:34:57.:35:00.

growing criticism, New York's authorities believe their tactics

:35:00.:35:05.

work, and are vital, so long as the city remains top of the terrorist

:35:05.:35:08.

target list. There is no question about it that New York is safer

:35:08.:35:12.

than it was ten years ago, but there are no guarantees. We don't

:35:12.:35:18.

know what we don't know, and we are doing everything that I believe we

:35:18.:35:26.

can do, to protect the city, but it is a dangerous world. The takes a

:35:26.:35:29.

decade ago traumatised New York, and those in charge of preventing a

:35:29.:35:34.

return to Ground Zero, do not want to be accused of not doing enough.

:35:34.:35:43.

However controversial some of their measures might be.

:35:43.:35:46.

That's all from us in New York tonight. Join us here tomorrow for

:35:46.:35:52.

our special edition of Newsnight to coincide with the anniversary. We

:35:52.:35:57.

will hear from Donald Rumsfeld, and the famous known unknown, and we

:35:57.:36:07.

will discuss the way 9/11 changed America with Carl Bernstein and our

:36:07.:36:14.

other guests. Imagine if you can, switching on

:36:14.:36:17.

the television and discovering the man you married as a teenager turns

:36:17.:36:22.

out to be a murder of young women. That is what happened to Cathy when

:36:22.:36:32.
:36:32.:36:33.

she married Tobin, the killer. She explains how she escaped his sights.

:36:33.:36:37.

This is her first-ever broadcast interview.

:36:37.:36:41.

Murderer, rapist, abuser, abducter and husband and father. Over the

:36:41.:36:46.

course of three deck taids, Peter Tobin committed acts that would see

:36:46.:36:52.

him jailed on three life sentences. His past is dark and complicated. A

:36:52.:36:55.

childhood in Glasgow's Young Offenders Institute, married twice

:36:55.:37:00.

in his 20s. In 1986 he met Cathy Wilson, three years later they

:37:00.:37:06.

married, Tobin now in his 30s, Cathy still a teenager. They had a

:37:06.:37:10.

son Daniel and they lived briefly in Bathgate in Scotland, before

:37:10.:37:15.

Cathy managed to leave him. Not long afterwards, the schoolgirl

:37:15.:37:20.

Vicky Hamilton goes missing from a bus stop in Bathgate. Six months

:37:20.:37:28.

later, another teenager Dina McNichol goes missing from a music

:37:28.:37:35.

festival in Hampshire. Dinah McNichol if you are watching go to

:37:35.:37:39.

the phone and your father and family are waiting to hear if you

:37:39.:37:43.

are well. Cathy and the wider public are still in the dark.

:37:43.:37:48.

Meanwhile Daniel is growing up and still making occasional visits to

:37:48.:37:55.

see his father. During one such visit Tobin drugs and rapes two 13-

:37:55.:38:00.

year-old girls and goes on the run. That same year Peter Tobin is

:38:00.:38:04.

brought to justice, and sentenced to 14 years, although he service

:38:05.:38:12.

only nine. On his early release he heads to Glasgow and takes up

:38:12.:38:19.

refuge at St Patrick's church, where he murders a young polish

:38:19.:38:24.

student. He's finally sentenced for that murder and his years of

:38:24.:38:29.

deception begin to unravel. Police are led to his home and find the

:38:29.:38:34.

bodies of two women. Cathy gets a call from her aunt to turn on the

:38:34.:38:38.

television. She realised the man she married, divorced and feared

:38:38.:38:45.

for so many years, indeed a serial killer lt Cathy, you met Pete -

:38:45.:38:51.

killer. Cathy, you met Peter Tobin in 1986, what were you and he like

:38:51.:38:56.

at the time? He was very charming, with very exotic tales of fighting

:38:56.:39:01.

in the army. He said he was at Aden, he said he worked on the oil rigs,

:39:01.:39:05.

and it all seemed a world away from my lifestyle at the time. He gave

:39:05.:39:10.

me lots of attention, that made me feel very special. Generally, no

:39:10.:39:13.

flowers or dinner, nothing quite as nice as that.

:39:13.:39:21.

Why did you marry him? I had my son, my son was nine months old at this

:39:21.:39:27.

point. It was quite important for me for my son to have a strong

:39:27.:39:32.

father figure in his life, I hadn't had one, my father wasn't on the

:39:32.:39:36.

scene growing up. Peter suggested it, and I thought it was a great

:39:36.:39:39.

idea. My son would then not be out of wedlock, I thought that was

:39:39.:39:43.

important for me to do. When did you start to see through him and

:39:43.:39:47.

see through the stories he told you? I hadn't seen through any of

:39:47.:39:52.

the stories at all, it wasn't until 1994 when I was called into the

:39:52.:40:02.
:40:02.:40:05.

police station with reference to the two girls that he had assaulted.

:40:05.:40:08.

The police officer at the time said to me do you know anything about

:40:08.:40:13.

this man, I said yes, yes, he fought in Aden and on disability

:40:13.:40:16.

benefit because he had shrapnel in his wrist and head, and he worked

:40:16.:40:21.

on the oil rigs. He said he hadn't done any of those things at all,

:40:21.:40:25.

that was the first time I found out about it. You mentioned the police

:40:25.:40:29.

contacted you because of the assault on these two young girls,

:40:29.:40:33.

they were two 13-year-old girls raped by Tobin? Yes, I know. When

:40:33.:40:37.

you learned that, how did you feel about that? I was sitting in it the

:40:37.:40:40.

police station, I was saying this can't be right, it can't be this

:40:40.:40:45.

man that has done this. Absolutely not, it is not the man I know.

:40:46.:40:49.

However violent he had been towards me in my life, it was towards me

:40:49.:40:53.

and not towards young girls. They said no-one of the girls has

:40:53.:40:56.

managed to regain consciousness and confirmed it was him. That is when

:40:56.:40:59.

everything came out. I helped the police as much as I could to

:40:59.:41:03.

suggest where he might have been hiding. Eventually in one of the

:41:03.:41:06.

places I suggested they found him six weeks later. Your son Daniel

:41:07.:41:12.

was in the same house, even though he didn't witness what went on?

:41:12.:41:18.

transpired he lured the girls into the house under the premise they

:41:18.:41:23.

would babysit for Daniel in the evening. When he got there he must

:41:23.:41:27.

have offered them an introductor glass of something which has been

:41:27.:41:30.

drugged. Because the police said there was copious amounts of

:41:30.:41:36.

alcohol and drugs in their system. So Daniel was the lure to get the

:41:37.:41:41.

girls to go into the house, at one point in the evening he was in his

:41:41.:41:44.

bedroom. At one point in the evening he called Daniel to bring

:41:44.:41:48.

ice from the kitchen into the room, because there was blood and he

:41:48.:41:51.

wanted to stem the flow of blood. Daniel was in the room for two

:41:51.:41:55.

minutes, and thankfully went back out again. I don't know how a man

:41:55.:42:00.

can do that to his own son, really. How did you play you and Daniel?

:42:00.:42:04.

was at home with him and I said I really think this relationship is

:42:04.:42:08.

failing and we need a divorce, and he picked up Daniel, took him to

:42:08.:42:12.

the stop of the staircase, and threatened to throw him down the

:42:12.:42:16.

stairs, he said you will never ever leave me, at all. And I could see

:42:16.:42:20.

in his eyes he really meant it. From that moment on, until I

:42:20.:42:23.

managed to escape three months later, he didn't leave my side.

:42:23.:42:28.

Then moving forward to 2006, you got the real shock of switching on

:42:28.:42:31.

the television. Tell me about that. My aunt phoned me up and said turn

:42:32.:42:36.

the television on now. I turned it on and there was Peter Tobin's face.

:42:36.:42:41.

It was a shock and disbelief, shock because I hadn't seen this face for

:42:41.:42:44.

12 years. Having been released early once, he was released early a

:42:44.:42:48.

second time? I know, and this wouldn't have been killed if he

:42:48.:42:51.

hadn't been released early. Released two years early. How does

:42:51.:42:55.

that make you feel? Sick, really, this is a completely unnecessary

:42:56.:43:00.

death. Completely unnecessary death. I fully think our judicial system

:43:00.:43:04.

is wrong. I think if you get given a sentence that is what the judge

:43:04.:43:06.

feels you should be paying the price with. I think it is

:43:07.:43:13.

completely inappropriate you don't do it, it doesn't make sense to me

:43:13.:43:16.

giving someone 14 years and then coming out after eight. If he had

:43:16.:43:19.

completed the 14 years there would be one other girl still alive.

:43:19.:43:23.

the police started to investigate where the bodies were buried and if

:43:23.:43:27.

there were even more murders? believe the crimes have been so

:43:28.:43:34.

severe, the murders so awful, all murders are awful, but particularly

:43:34.:43:38.

vicious, that you don't get to his age committing that without having

:43:38.:43:41.

done anything before. They are reinvestigating the whole of his

:43:41.:43:45.

life. Even though they are looking to see. Because there have been

:43:45.:43:49.

some suggestions that he may have murdered many, many more people?

:43:49.:43:51.

Apparently, I have heard through the police source that is he has

:43:52.:43:58.

been bragging in prison that he may have been responsible for 48.

:43:58.:44:02.

Murders? Yeah. When you look on that. Could you see a pattern now,

:44:02.:44:07.

could you think of things in the past, in your past relationship

:44:07.:44:11.

with Tobin, that might have, perhaps, set off alarm bells,

:44:11.:44:14.

things that might have triggered you to think differently about him

:44:14.:44:20.

at the time? I have vague memories and flashbacks of various

:44:20.:44:23.

inappropriate situations of women coming and going, but it is really

:44:23.:44:29.

the police filling in the spaces. Peter Tobin's drug of choice is his

:44:29.:44:34.

medication drug, which he has used for all of his victims. Apparently

:44:34.:44:40.

it is a heavy sedative, so they feel it is reasonable to assume he

:44:40.:44:44.

was giving me some of these drugs on an evening basis. You were not

:44:44.:44:49.

aware of that? I didn't drink when my son was young, a drop, it was

:44:49.:44:52.

definitely not an alcohol thing, there were evenings I didn't

:44:52.:44:56.

remember at all. I was asked did he go out in the evenings to casino, I

:44:56.:45:03.

said he never left the house in the evenings, they said no, he has a

:45:03.:45:08.

gambling habit going to the casinos on a regular basis, I had no idea.

:45:08.:45:15.

That appears to be the thing of using drugs, assaulting young women

:45:15.:45:18.

and murdering them, he appears to have tried out something like that

:45:19.:45:24.

with you? When I had his son, I changed in his eyes from being a

:45:24.:45:27.

potential victim to being a possession. I think that's why I'm

:45:27.:45:32.

still alive. But he still wanted to practice his techniques. Do you

:45:32.:45:36.

think having Daniel, having your son saved you? Without a shadow of

:45:36.:45:40.

a doubt. I directly fit the profile of everything, every other girl

:45:40.:45:44.

that he has been associated with in any form, and I really don't think

:45:44.:45:50.

I should be here today. There is already devastation for

:45:50.:45:55.

five families, there will be a lot more to come out. If makes me feel

:45:55.:46:02.

sick thatman man ever touched me. A quick look at tomorrow morning's

:46:03.:46:12.
:46:13.:46:35.

That's all from Newsnight, tomorrow the 9/11 anniversary programme from

:46:35.:46:42.

New York. We will leave you with the court pictures for the latest

:46:42.:46:49.

battle between the Prime Minister and the mayor! To mark National

:46:49.:46:59.
:46:59.:47:22.

# Anyone for tennis, wouldn't that be nice.

:47:22.:47:26.

It is a really mild night out there, it will be a warm day on Friday.

:47:26.:47:29.

Particularly where we get some sunshine. We start fairly cloudy

:47:29.:47:32.

with rain in northern England and southern Scotland. That slowly

:47:32.:47:36.

clears, it lingers in northern Scotland, however, elsewhere, bar

:47:36.:47:39.

one or two scattered showers, most places looking dry. It is in

:47:39.:47:43.

eastern areas where we will see things brightening up to reveal

:47:43.:47:50.

sunshine. In the low 20s, 23, or 24 in one or two places. The south

:47:50.:47:53.

coast could be grey, misty in the beaches of South-West England. A

:47:54.:47:57.

bit of brightness is possible, chiefly to the north-east of the

:47:57.:48:01.

moors. Same in Wales, mostly cloudy, a few scattered showers, generally

:48:01.:48:07.

dry. A bit of brightness, sunny spells to the north-east. It should

:48:07.:48:13.

brighten up in Wales, it could easily reach 20 degrees. Slowly

:48:14.:48:18.

brightening up in central Scotland. The far north a wet old day. On

:48:18.:48:21.

Saturday another band of rain working across Northern Ireland.

:48:21.:48:25.

That will be fold by showers. Crucially t will also - followed by

:48:25.:48:30.

showers, crucially it will bring showers in the eastern area.

:48:30.:48:33.

24 in London maybe, elsewhere it will turn blustery with lots of

:48:34.:48:37.

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