22/11/2011 Newsnight


22/11/2011

Gavin Esler looks at neutering over-paid fat cat executives, the uprising against the military in Cairo, the hacking inquiry and the row about climate change.


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Tonight's stratospheric pay rises for top executives, pocketing 100-

:00:12.:00:17.

times more than employees, as if living on another planet.

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Strange British politics, one day they are a bunch of wealth creators,

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the next, a bunch of leeches. Is it time to redefine the "fat cats". We

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will hear why. We will hear from businesswoman, Nicola Horlick.Also

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tonight. TRANSLATION: We haven't put one single bullet on the

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Egyptian citizens. That's progress, but the people don't seem to

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believe those promises in Egypt. At the hacking inquiry, we examine

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how dodgy dealing and hacking of celebrities went beyond the Murdoch

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press. When I appeared on Newsnight, I mentioned someone in a less than

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flattering light, the next day the papers raking up all the old

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tabloid stories about myself and Hugh Grant. And climategate two,

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and new leak of e-mails from scientists on the eve of another

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international summit. How damage ring they this time?

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-- damaging are they this time. Good evening, President John F

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Kennedy tackled the idea of great inequalties in earnings in the

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United States, by saying a rising tide will raise all boats. What

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happens now, as when in Britain, the tide is falling. One thing we

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notice is real pay for most British workers is now going back wards.

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But for top executives it has gone up 4,000% over 30 years, according

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to the high pray commission. Is this just rewards, -- High Pay

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Commission. Is this just rewards, or is the market system broken, and

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can and will politicians do anything beyond reflecting public

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outrage. In place like this, a decent suit

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will cost you �4,000, a decent watch about the same. In London's

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Bond Street, as we are approaching bonus season, there will soon be no

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shortage of people who know how to make and spend money. But the

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wealth disparities are getting bigger. If we take average pay last

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year, and then see what cleaners, nurses, teachers, policemen, army

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officers, civil servants and local Government chief executives were

:02:39.:02:44.

paid, it all pales by comparison with the chief executive of the

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average FTSE 100 company. The thing that shocks me most is the way the

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top 0.1%, mostly company directors, have pulled away from the rest in

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the past 30 years. In 1980 being a company director was a respectable

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middle-class job, you got paid a decent salary. You were on

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something like 13-times average wages. Now they have pulled away so

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much they have had up to 5,000% increases over that time. They are

:03:11.:03:21.

now paid in the millions. They are paid at 75-88-times average wages.

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It was the Thatcher revolution of the 1980s that began the process,

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capital controls were abolished, top raift tax cut. But rise -- top

:03:32.:03:40.

rate of tax cut. But rising inequalties is not the only problem,

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but capitalism is changing and nowhere more than under Gordon

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Brown. With wages keeping track with growth in the 80s they nearly

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did, and even in the 90s, 90% was reflected in wage growth. After

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that it was a different story, Labour may have declared itself

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relaxed about people getting filthy rich, but it was the intensely

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average that did worse than before. My fear is that the British economy

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has caught a bit of the American inequality virus. This man, former

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adviser to President Obama, says it goes deeper than politics. In order

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to understand this phenomena, you have to understand the obvious

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point, middle-class families do not depend on their bond portfolio and

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their shares of stock, they depend on their pay cheques. If their pay

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cheques, adjusted by inflation, aren't going anywhere, which is

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what is happening for the past three decades, then you have a

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middle-class squeeze, it really follows. Some employeeers have

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dised today's report, commissioned by Compass and JRF, the Government

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has not. It is thinking about this hard. I want to see responsible

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capital, that is what the vast majority of British business,

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including the banking sector want to see as well. It is not right

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that we have the situation that has been happening over the last decade,

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where we have vast ex, extreme awards -- vast, extreme awards paid

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to directors of companies. It is not good for the consumers eers,

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the people who run the company -- consumers, the people who run the

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company and the public. High pay is a political hot topic, with the

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third bleak Christmas in a row coming up, it is not hard to see

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why. When the financial crisis started in 2008, redistribution was

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not high on the agenda. People were worried about the structure of

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capitalism, the credit boom, now, after three years of seeing the

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rich get richer, it is about the rich.

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An opinion poll for the High Pay Commission found almost three

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quarters of people thought income differences were too large. Well

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over half said ordinary working people didn't get their fair share

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of the wealth, and almost as many laid the problem at the feet of

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Government. We like to think that we have a very visceral sense of

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fairness in this country. A lot of people would say that earning

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enough to become independently wealthy in three to five years at

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the top of one of our big businesss not fair. I think we can take

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action on this, we don't have to be led by other countries. We have

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gone too much in the direction of America, where pay has really

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reached stratospheric levels. here's the dilemma, the coalition's

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less than a week away from announcing its growth strategy. It

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is being urge bid some in its own ranks to -- urged by some in its

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own ranks to rip up the 50p tax rate and other measures, all in the

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pursuit of wealth creation. But inequality has now arrived, in

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its chauffeured Bentley, on to the political scene, that complicated

:07:01.:07:11.
:07:11.:07:15.

matters. We have Elizabeth Truss and Chuka

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Umunna and Nicola Horlick to discuss this. People get really

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wound up about it and politicians make a lot of statements but

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nothing is done. It was not done under Labour and it won't get done

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here? I don't agree with that. It doesn't talk about the impact of

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business, the report, having rewards for failure or rewards

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disproportionate to performance. Having pay incentives within

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business doesn't promote good business practice. Brilliant

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analysis, what bu what will happen? We have said a number of things,

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pay and transparency is key. Business needs to be working in

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partnership with the public. There are things in the report today, for

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example, having an employee on the remuneration committee of the board

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which would increase transparency. Also having companies publish the

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ratio of the average paid employee to the person highest paid in the

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business. There is a dire need for greater simplification of the pay

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structures. I speak as a former corporate employment lawyer. In the

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perspective of the company and the executive and society, being able

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to better understand these things is crucial. The thing is, we need a

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partnership of society and business working together. We need wealth

:08:30.:08:34.

creation as well? Of course we do, they are interdependant. You need

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there to be trust between the two, we need, of course, communities,

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which feed businesses, employees and customers, but society needs

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business too, which is creating those jobs. Is there a consensus

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about this. Vincent Cable said this is unacceptable, we can't have it,

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again, what can you do about it? think there is more consensus on

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the problem than the solution. My view is we haven't seen enough of a

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free market. We have had very heavily regulated markets. New

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companies have not been able to enter, we haven't had enough

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competition, that means companies have been able to make huge profits,

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and pay chief executives more. you saying there is a market

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solution to profound market failure, this is surely a failure? We are

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83rd in the world now for regulation, 50% of our GDP is spent

:09:21.:09:25.

by the state. I don't think you can say that's a true free market. The

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other issue we have got. Just to be clear, you should think we should

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keep our fingers crossed and hope the market will sort this out?

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think we need more competition, in the banking sector, which has

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become increasingly concentrated. We need to split up banks that are

:09:42.:09:45.

too big, to ensure more competition. We need more competition in the

:09:45.:09:48.

labour market. One of the things that has happened is we have seen

:09:48.:09:52.

the development of an hourglass economy, so the number of high-

:09:52.:09:58.

skilled jobs has gone up, and the number of mid--skilled jobs has

:09:58.:10:03.

gone down. The last Government didn't prepare people for that, we

:10:03.:10:09.

are 28th in the world for maths. Ed Milliband admitted we don't have

:10:09.:10:14.

enough engineers or wolder, or people educate today do the jobs

:10:14.:10:18.

now. How can you have a proper competition system if people don't

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have an understanding of what the rewards are. We need a robust

:10:24.:10:27.

competition regime, to argue there hasn't been a market failure here.

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In the last year we have seen a 49% increase in the remuneration of

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FTSE 100 directors, but only a 3% increase in profit. I agree about

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the market transparency, that is making the market better. We have

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seen Government introducing regulation after regulation that

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stops new companies entering the market. I disagree. Shareholders

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haven't a grip on this either, have they? You can blame shareholders

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and also non-executive directors, they are generally the people who

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sit on the remuneration committees that decide what pay is. Including

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for themselves? In that report, somebody said, that this is, we

:11:07.:11:10.

have been infected by what is going on in the United States. I think

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that's true. Because we have got many companies now which are more

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global, if you have got a large pharmaceutical company, which is

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based in the UK, which is competing for top, top executives, with Merc

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and Pfizer. This report is a myth that these people will disappear to

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Dubai, they don't? The point is there are certain number of people

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in the pharmaceutical industry who will take the top jobs, they are

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not necessary British, we want the best person to manage the top

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pharmaceutical company. You are competing in the international

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market. This issue is not limited to the private sector. We see

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organisations like the BBC, or Network Rail, giving out huge

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salaries as well. It is not limited to the private sector. Yes, there

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are issues about competition in the market, there are also issues in

:12:00.:12:05.

quangos as well. How would you see the market correcting this system?

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I think Nicola is absolutely right, we need a clearer relationship

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between the owners and managers in a business. What has been happening

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is the managers have been getting the rewards, and the owners have

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been taking the risks. How do you get that? You get that through

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shareholders exercising their rights. Yes. Wait a minute,

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shareholders own the business, there are examples in the past

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where shareholders have taken action and been very successful. In

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years gone by, it used to be the case that top executives had three-

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year rolling contracts, and pension funds, systematically, at AGMs

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voted against that, and it stopped. This ignores one thing, part of the

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problem is there is a closed circle in some of these boards. It is a

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cosy club. I completely agree we need to increase shareholders

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engagment. There is a democratic deficit there. There is a

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difficulty for us in a sense that two fifths of UK shares are held by

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international investors, we have to work out how to better engage them.

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I come back to the need for greater transparency and accountability,

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Government has a role to play there working with business. Is Vincent

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Cable closer to Chuka Umunna's view than you are? We need to empower

:13:23.:13:27.

consumers. How do you do that without transparency? In the

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banking industry we need to make it easier for consumers to change

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their bank accounts to drive competition, so more banks enter

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the market. Take I don't want regulators and Governments setting

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people's pay, which is the thin end of the wedge that you are decribing.

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This commission didn't call for that. Nobody called for that.

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did call for workers to be making decisions about remuneration.

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are definitely against that? I am against that. There are lots of

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industries where there is plenty of competition where the companies

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aren't that profitable, and the chief executive is paid a lot of

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money. It is not about competition. What would you do, it does seem

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some people must be uniquely undermotivated in chief executive

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positions, because they get rewards that are completely out of step

:14:15.:14:19.

with workers what would you do? would encourage shareholders, it

:14:19.:14:23.

may well be the case that 40% of shares owned outside the UK. That

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is the FTSE, it is not true of medium-sized companies and smaller

:14:28.:14:31.

companies. That is a general figure for all companies, the FTSE is

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higher. It is very high. How would you empower the shareholders?

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shareholders are empowered. They don't use T They are not using

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their votes effectively. What they need to do, and also, major

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shareholders get the opportunity to discuss these things, with senior

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management, at least twice a year. If you have a big shareholding in a

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company. Often it is not a meaningful engagment. This

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discussion I find bemusing because it is talking as if some how the

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status quo is fine and the market will step in. It is definitely not

:15:05.:15:08.

that. Do you think things have profoundly changed, in the good

:15:08.:15:13.

times you put up with it as share horld or worker, but you don't --

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shareholder or worker, but you won't put up with it now? I think

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things are getting worse and the previous Government and its

:15:21.:15:24.

policies face blame for that. Ed Milliband criticised the old rules,

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they were rules invented by Gordon Brown in terms of regulation of the

:15:28.:15:31.

economy. They absolutely were, when the going was good, Labour was

:15:31.:15:35.

happy to take the money and they did. And now they say the rules are

:15:35.:15:43.

wrong, you invented them. If you let me get a word in. I wouldn't

:15:43.:15:47.

say that, I find this amusing that there is irony you get tapped from

:15:47.:15:55.

the right for not just leaving it to the market, and you get by --

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attacked by not doing enough in Government. One thing we put in

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Government was legislation to implement the Walker Review, which

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would have meant in the financial circumstances disclosure of pay in

:16:11.:16:15.

bands. With remuneration you need to know what it is, the Government

:16:16.:16:19.

put in legislation for. That you talk about our Government, but you

:16:19.:16:24.

have been in power for more than 18 months, now is the time for action.

:16:24.:16:28.

I want to see more competition. Recently I proposed more

:16:28.:16:31.

competition in the bank industry. Would you agree with Vincent Cable

:16:31.:16:35.

that something must be done, that might include some kind of

:16:35.:16:38.

legislation, isn't he closer to Chuka Umunna's point of view than

:16:38.:16:43.

your's? I think what we need is a change in corporate culture.

:16:43.:16:50.

legislation? We need shareholders to be more active, and change the

:16:50.:16:54.

ownership to management. legislation? That may involve

:16:54.:16:56.

legislation about corporate structure, it certainly doesn't

:16:56.:17:00.

involve the Government deciding how much people get paid. Nobody is

:17:00.:17:06.

arguing for that? You are You are erecting a straw man here to win an

:17:06.:17:10.

argument you are losing. The voice mail hacking scandal started, we

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were confidently told, with one or two bad apples at one newspaper,

:17:14.:17:18.

the News of the World, now as the Leveson Inquiry rolls on we have

:17:18.:17:25.

gone from the bad apple theory to the collapse of the News of the

:17:25.:17:29.

World, and into the Murdoch empire and other news groups. We have

:17:29.:17:39.
:17:39.:17:42.

tried to figure out how far the contagion has spread. Put these on

:17:42.:17:46.

the tab. Steve Coogan argues that his talent and resulting public

:17:46.:17:49.

profile does not justify intrusive investigations into his private

:17:50.:17:58.

life. I don't want to see an erection. Right guys. Finished with

:17:58.:18:02.

the Daily Mail. Arriving at the Leveson Inquiry today he revealed

:18:02.:18:06.

how he has been at the end of some extraordinary attempts to dig dirt.

:18:06.:18:08.

One involved a journalist from News of the World, who phoned him about

:18:08.:18:15.

an affair, and to offer him a deal. If I confirmed certain aspects of

:18:15.:18:18.

the story, in return he would guarantee that the more lurid

:18:18.:18:26.

details would be left out of the story. Yes. So I confirmed certain

:18:27.:18:33.

details for him, and he gave me his word that the more embarrassing

:18:33.:18:40.

part of the story, which I knew would upset my then wife's family

:18:40.:18:49.

would be omitted. And after that, I received, my manager received a

:18:49.:18:52.

phone call from Andy Coulson saying that they had recorded the whole

:18:52.:18:56.

phone call and they were going to put everything in the newspaper.

:18:57.:19:01.

Steve Coogan also argued that many celebrities are too scared of

:19:01.:19:05.

tabloid reprisals to speak up. He says the Mail has been critical

:19:05.:19:11.

after his appearances on Newsnight. All the Daily Mail are interested

:19:11.:19:14.

in are the commercial interests, it is selling newspapers, everything

:19:14.:19:21.

is based on who is shagging who, it is not about exposing corruption.

:19:21.:19:26.

In fact, when I appeared on Newsnight, I mentioned Paul Dakerin

:19:26.:19:33.

in a slightly less than flattering light, a an unwise thing to do. The

:19:33.:19:38.

next day big story in the newspaper, raking up all the tabloid stories

:19:38.:19:42.

about myself and Hugh Grant. It appeared to me, probably gone to

:19:42.:19:47.

his office and sent a memo round saying if you want to throw dirt at

:19:47.:19:51.

Steve Coogan and Hugh Grant, be my guest. In recent cases witnesses

:19:51.:19:55.

have sought to throw the net wider, saying phone hacking was not

:19:55.:19:58.

confined to News of the World. In the summer Newsnight revealed

:19:58.:20:03.

allegations against the Mirror Group of newspapers, allegation

:20:03.:20:09.

that is were denied. There have been whisper about the Sun and the

:20:09.:20:12.

Daily Mail, that have been denied. How strong is the evidence beyond

:20:12.:20:15.

the News of the World. If you look at the career histories of those

:20:15.:20:20.

arrested so far, it appears logical the police may ask questions of

:20:20.:20:25.

other newspapers. These three journalists worked together at the

:20:25.:20:30.

News of the World, before that the Sunday People owned by the Mirror

:20:30.:20:37.

Group, it hardly amounts to a smoking gun. Footballer Gary

:20:37.:20:44.

Flitcroft believes his messages were hacked by the Sunday People

:20:44.:20:48.

after two women tried to sell their story. I got a phone call off a lap

:20:48.:20:54.

dancer I was seeing, and stated she was being offered �5,000, and if I

:20:54.:20:58.

didn't pay her she would get it off the newspaper. There was no way the

:20:58.:21:02.

two girls knew each other. It is a massive coincidence that the Sunday

:21:02.:21:06.

People get two girls to happen. It doesn't happen. The only way they

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could have got it was from my phone bill. Have you any evidence of

:21:13.:21:21.

phone hacking or is it just speculation? No, it is just

:21:21.:21:25.

speculation, they didn't know each other or live near each other, it

:21:25.:21:28.

is a massive coincidence the newspaper gets two girls in the

:21:29.:21:35.

space of two months. Yesterday Hugh Grant told his suspicions of a Mail

:21:35.:21:44.

on Sunday stories his relationship with a plumy-voiced woman in

:21:44.:21:52.

America, he says it may have been voice messages hacked between him

:21:52.:21:58.

and a plumy-voiced friend. I can't see any basis for the story except

:21:58.:22:02.

the voice messages. You haven't alleged that in the public domain.

:22:02.:22:05.

No, when I was preparing the statement, going through all my

:22:05.:22:08.

trials and tribulations with the press, I looked at that one and

:22:08.:22:13.

thought it was weird, and then the penny dropped. I think it the

:22:13.:22:17.

highest it can be put is it is a piece of speculation on your part

:22:18.:22:22.

in relation to this? Yeah. The newspaper denied this yesterday,

:22:22.:22:26.

saying the Mail on Sunday utterly refutes Hugh Grant's claim that

:22:26.:22:31.

they got any story as a result of phone hacking. Then there was our

:22:31.:22:36.

exclusive story in the summer. When Heather Mills told us she had been

:22:36.:22:42.

contacted by a senior journalist in the Mirror Group, saying he had

:22:42.:22:52.
:22:52.:22:58.

heard a message left by Sir Paul Back then the Mirror Group denied

:22:59.:23:01.

any knowledge of phone hacking saying its journalists operate

:23:01.:23:04.

within the law. All in all, there is plenty of smoke but little fire

:23:04.:23:08.

on the question of whether other papers hacked phones. That they

:23:08.:23:13.

sometimes behaved unethically is far easier to prove.

:23:13.:23:15.

The solicitor, Mark Lewis, represents some of those who have

:23:15.:23:19.

been appearing before the Leveson Inquiry, and will give evidence

:23:19.:23:25.

there tomorrow imself. Tim Lockhart is a former editor of the Scotsman,

:23:25.:23:30.

and a lecturer at the University of Kent. There is a lot of speculation

:23:30.:23:34.

and allegationings, there is no proof of any conat that stage --

:23:34.:23:39.

allegations, but there is no proof beyond the News of the World?

:23:39.:23:42.

news news were almost unlucky, because mull -- the News of the

:23:42.:23:47.

World were almost unlucky because Glenn Mulcaire had written evidence

:23:47.:23:52.

down. If we compare what was said by the News of the World at the

:23:52.:23:57.

very beginning, there was also a denial. They ran an editoral, the

:23:57.:24:00.

one bad apple theory, they didn't do anybody else. They told that

:24:00.:24:06.

story, and they ran an editoral in addition which said, this was a sad

:24:06.:24:10.

day in the News of the World's 164- year history. Of course, what we

:24:10.:24:14.

have got to be very concerned about is whether or not there is a cover-

:24:14.:24:19.

up in other newspapers. Look, all professions, including the legal

:24:19.:24:24.

profession, have people who don't follow the rules. It seems very

:24:24.:24:29.

unlikely that the News of the World was the only newspaper that had a

:24:29.:24:33.

small core of people who didn't follow the rules who broke the law.

:24:34.:24:37.

Eventhough there is no proof, but it is certainly worth looking at,

:24:38.:24:42.

and there is a smell here, isn't there? We seem to be inventing the

:24:43.:24:50.

novel legal precedent here of guilt until proven innocent. I think we

:24:50.:24:53.

should reverse it and take the normal stance. There is not any

:24:54.:24:56.

compelling evidence that journalists outside the News of the

:24:56.:24:59.

World or News International's newspaper titles have been involved

:24:59.:25:03.

in phone hacking. There are good reasons to believe that in the

:25:04.:25:07.

current circumstances, any editor or newspaper group which issued

:25:07.:25:12.

such an emphatic denial, as the one issued yesterday by associated

:25:12.:25:15.

newspapers, could possibly be lying, would have to be a fool. Do you

:25:15.:25:19.

accept then that what we may be seeing here, with the Leveson

:25:19.:25:24.

Inquiry is something very important for those involved, very cathartic

:25:24.:25:29.

for those involved, really harrowing stories, we heard some

:25:29.:25:33.

terrible stuff today, but actually t may not change much? I don't

:25:33.:25:36.

think that is right. It is innocent until proven guilty. You have a

:25:36.:25:40.

difficulty that the press choose to report. So we saw Hugh Grant's

:25:41.:25:44.

evidence yesterday, it was a selected extract of evidence,

:25:44.:25:49.

people didn't look at the full statement, they maybe watched the

:25:49.:25:53.

Hugh Grant show and saw the cross- examination of the small bit.

:25:53.:25:56.

People have to look at the statements available on-line. They

:25:56.:26:00.

can go through exactly what he said and look at the level of intrusion.

:26:00.:26:05.

And then perhaps people are able to make a choice.

:26:05.:26:09.

I don't think that any of the statements that were issued

:26:09.:26:13.

yesterday by Hugh Grant give firm evidence that his phone was hacked

:26:14.:26:19.

by any newspaper. But he would accept that himself, he would never

:26:19.:26:24.

that this is the only logical way he thinks this -- infers that this

:26:24.:26:30.

is the only logical way he this could have happened? We know there

:26:30.:26:35.

are many logical ways of finding out what people don't want in the

:26:35.:26:40.

public domain. It is persistent reporting. Is it Truth and

:26:40.:26:43.

Reconciliation Commission where people are just finger pointing?

:26:43.:26:48.

think it is a perfect storm. I don't think we would have had a

:26:48.:26:53.

Leveson Inquiry, if Murdoch mur's bid for BSkyB had not coincided

:26:53.:26:57.

with the disturbing behaviour, which included the hacking of koul

:26:57.:27:06.

Dowler's phone. -- including Sally Dowler's phone.

:27:06.:27:14.

-- Milly Dowler's phone. A -- A large number of newspapers,

:27:14.:27:17.

broadcast journalists are being tarred with the same brush as a

:27:17.:27:23.

small group of journalists in News International. Guilt by

:27:23.:27:26.

association? I'm not sure that is right. You talked about truth and

:27:26.:27:29.

reconciliation. I'm not sure we are having the full truth either. We

:27:30.:27:35.

need to look at the truth, because actually what happens is we end up

:27:35.:27:39.

losing another Sunday newspaper, or we end up losing a daily newspaper

:27:40.:27:44.

because people don't tell the truth. They cover up things, and if it

:27:44.:27:48.

would have come out, the big loser are the people who used to read the

:27:48.:27:51.

News of the World. There was such a cover up that when it came out they

:27:51.:27:55.

had no choice, nowhere to go, and the same will happen with other

:27:55.:27:59.

newspapers. Do you think newspapers, all newspapers actually, do they

:27:59.:28:03.

have a future, and particular lie the tabloids what will they do?

:28:03.:28:07.

raise a -- -- particularly the tabloids, what will they do?

:28:07.:28:14.

raise an important point. This is not the biggest problem facing

:28:14.:28:19.

journalism. The biggest problem is most newspapers are nearly bankrupt,

:28:19.:28:23.

the multimedia has completely undermined the advertising market.

:28:24.:28:30.

We face a problem with the condemnation of tabloid newspapers

:28:30.:28:35.

risks losing the only profitable newspapers in this country, while

:28:35.:28:38.

not facing the reality if those newspapers were to die we would

:28:38.:28:42.

have no newspaper press in this country. The Guardian, that exposed

:28:42.:28:47.

this, is losing �100,000 a day, the Independent is supported by the

:28:47.:28:51.

generousness of its owners, the Times is subsidised by the Sun. We

:28:51.:28:56.

face a real crisis in British journalism, it is about economics.

:28:56.:29:00.

A economics and this is a side show? It is and it isn't. If we

:29:00.:29:04.

talk about bankruptcy, we have financial bankruptcy on one side

:29:04.:29:09.

and moral bankruptcy on the other. We don't need to keep moral

:29:09.:29:13.

bankruptcy alive. Why should we be subsidising it. How many phones

:29:13.:29:20.

need to be hacked, how much information needs to be obtained

:29:20.:29:26.

illegally. Remember what was once told in a reworking of the

:29:26.:29:30.

journalistic cliche, climategate. It turned on e-mails from the

:29:30.:29:34.

university of East Anglia, that looked at robust claims of global

:29:34.:29:37.

warming just before an international climate conference.

:29:37.:29:41.

There is another climate conference coming up and, guess what, it has

:29:41.:29:44.

happened against. We have been figuring out if the leaks add up to

:29:44.:29:48.

much. What is in the e-mails? timing of this is clearly

:29:48.:29:52.

significant. The latest round of international talks on climate

:29:52.:29:57.

change begin on Monday. These 5,000 e-mails, involved some of the same

:29:57.:30:02.

characters, the same period of time as that very first release back in

:30:02.:30:08.

2009. What's important is that there are snippets of these e-mails

:30:08.:30:12.

appearing on climate-sceptic internet sites. These have no

:30:12.:30:16.

context, without that it is difficult to work out the true

:30:16.:30:20.

meaning of the original e-mails. People will want to scour the

:30:20.:30:23.

detail. Many of those I have spoken to this evening had not the chance

:30:23.:30:27.

to do that. Clearly there is material here that people, who are

:30:27.:30:31.

already suspicious about the science of climate change will sees

:30:31.:30:37.

on. I think in particular exchanges where there are words used such as,

:30:37.:30:41.

"spin", or "PR". We have a sample of some of those. There is one that

:30:41.:30:51.
:30:51.:31:10.

I spoke this evening to one of the key characters involved, there is a

:31:10.:31:15.

high-profile scientist called Professor Michael Mann from Penn

:31:15.:31:19.

University in the United States. He was cleared by misconduct last year

:31:19.:31:22.

by his university over the climategate affair. He says the

:31:22.:31:28.

exchanges show the back and forth of scientists wrestling with

:31:28.:31:31.

scientific issues, disagreeing with each other, frank discussions that

:31:31.:31:34.

are really important to the advancement of science. But I put

:31:34.:31:38.

it to him that some of these e- mails clearly the scientists are

:31:38.:31:41.

not just talking about science. They are talking about policy. And

:31:41.:31:46.

how to deal with the media. And I asked him if that's territory where

:31:46.:31:50.

scientists really should be getting involved at all. The attacks

:31:50.:31:56.

against science gain the upperhand in the public discourse and in

:31:56.:32:00.

considerations of policy. If scientists aren't there to defend

:32:00.:32:04.

their science and defend themselves against these attacks. And

:32:04.:32:08.

sometimes that means getting involved in the public discourse

:32:08.:32:12.

correctly. Are there any other implications in this? I think there

:32:12.:32:18.

will be calls for an examination of the details to see if there is

:32:18.:32:22.

anything fresh here or it isn't more of the same. Three inquiries

:32:22.:32:25.

have concluded that the British scientists involved in climategate

:32:26.:32:31.

did not act fraudulently or manipulate data, but they urged

:32:31.:32:34.

scientists to be more open with their data and how they interpret

:32:34.:32:38.

it. There is one difference, there is a message posted at the same

:32:38.:32:45.

time as one of these e-mails, where the person who has posted them is

:32:45.:32:51.

saying that spending money on climate chaiank with exacerbate

:32:51.:32:54.

poverty. The police have been interested and doing checks to see

:32:54.:32:58.

if there are any more clues of who is involved in the original hack.

:32:58.:33:02.

There are reports of Egyptian security forces going in hard

:33:02.:33:07.

against protestors in Tahrir Square. Teargas has again been used,

:33:07.:33:11.

according to a BBC correspondent on the scene. Protestors are speaking

:33:11.:33:15.

of a second revolution. Nine months ago they were delighted when the

:33:15.:33:19.

army, as a symbol of the nation, persuaded President Mubarak to go.

:33:19.:33:24.

Many are doubtful about statements from the army chief, which commit

:33:24.:33:28.

the military to democracy. We have this report.

:33:28.:33:32.

Four days into what some are calling Egypt's second revolution.

:33:32.:33:36.

The ragged encampment at the centre of Tahrir Square, geared up for

:33:36.:33:43.

another demonstration today. Amid the tumult, a man whose story shows

:33:43.:33:48.

how high a price some Egyptians will pay for democracy. This man

:33:48.:33:54.

was a dentist, he will never practice again, he's blind e lost

:33:54.:33:58.

one eye in January's revolution from President Mubarak's forces,

:33:58.:34:04.

the other to the forces of the military prueling council two days

:34:04.:34:09.

ago. -- ruling council two days ago. TRANSLATION: Police were trying to

:34:09.:34:14.

enter the square, they were firing buck shots and teargas and rubber

:34:14.:34:16.

bullets. We are defending the stones. I was standing on the

:34:16.:34:20.

frontline and I was shot in my eye. As people gathered in greater

:34:20.:34:23.

numbers to demand that Egypt's military rulers leave power

:34:23.:34:29.

immediately, protestors were celebrating his courage. Losing the

:34:29.:34:34.

sight of one eye, earlier in the year, why did you come back into

:34:34.:34:38.

this incredibly dangerous situation again, most people wouldn't have

:34:38.:34:44.

done that? For me, I stand before you in this square because I want

:34:44.:34:49.

dignity for myself and the country. You must live free and with dignity.

:34:49.:34:54.

It is not important to lose my eye. It is not important to lose

:34:54.:34:58.

anything. We are standing for the sake of our dignity, and nothing

:34:58.:35:06.

will make us go back. What dignity now means, at least to

:35:06.:35:11.

those on Tahrir Square, is living under civilian rule. They waited

:35:11.:35:15.

for an expected announcement about a handover of power by generals,

:35:15.:35:20.

who they saw as liberators in the spring, then began to distrust, and

:35:20.:35:22.

with the renewed violence of recent days, to hate.

:35:22.:35:27.

One of Egypt's leading rights campaigners told me abuses this

:35:27.:35:32.

year have sometimes been worse than under Mubarak. He has drawn up a

:35:32.:35:35.

charge sheet against senior officers, he says were behind

:35:35.:35:45.
:35:45.:35:47.

orders to maime and kill in recent days. It is a shoot-to-kill policy.

:35:47.:35:49.

It is Interior Ministry police, it is the same strategy of killing a

:35:50.:35:54.

few protestors so the rest of them can go home. Obviously it has

:35:54.:35:58.

failed, just like it failed in January. He thinks the military has

:35:58.:36:02.

deceived itself about the popular mood. Now we are under a Military

:36:02.:36:07.

Council whose members strongly believe that eepbl they are

:36:07.:36:12.

patriotic and that -- only they are patriotic, and that those who

:36:12.:36:16.

oppose their policies are the enemies within, with an external

:36:16.:36:21.

agenda, aiming to destablise Egypt. In their mind and in their

:36:21.:36:25.

narrative they distinguish between the protestors filling Tahrir

:36:25.:36:27.

Square and other cities now, and those in the same place as January.

:36:27.:36:31.

They think the January protest was a justified uprising against

:36:31.:36:35.

injustice, where as this protest is an attempt to destablise the

:36:35.:36:43.

country. When the head of the armed fores, Field Marshal Tantawi,

:36:43.:36:48.

finally appeared on TV this morning, he confirmed how offended the army

:36:48.:36:53.

felt by the demonstrations against it. TRANSLATION: Some people have

:36:53.:36:59.

tried to entice us to provocation, we put up with injuries and

:36:59.:37:05.

criticism, however, we didn't give in to these attempts. We are

:37:05.:37:11.

keeping our restraint. The Government supported us in all of

:37:11.:37:15.

this. But as the crowd waited outside in the square, he told them

:37:15.:37:19.

what he believes most Egyptians want to hear, that there will be a

:37:19.:37:26.

clear timetable for a transition to civilian rule. Tran To carry on the

:37:26.:37:30.

transitional period with the co- operation of the Supreme Council of

:37:30.:37:37.

the Armed Forces, to commit the holding of parliamentary elections

:37:37.:37:42.

on time. To elect a President of the State before the end of June

:37:43.:37:46.

2012. The Armed Forces represented

:37:46.:37:50.

through its Supreme Council does not seek power. So what did they

:37:50.:37:55.

make of that on Tahrir Square? think this is not enough. I saw a

:37:55.:38:03.

rewind of Mubarak's speech, I think this is a deja vu of what happened

:38:03.:38:10.

on January 25th. I think it is fine, but an apology is needed for those

:38:10.:38:14.

who died in Tahrir Square. Everybody needs an apology.

:38:14.:38:17.

wasn't enough for the Tahrir Square people, they thought it wasn't

:38:17.:38:23.

enough for them. They didn't satisfy, his speech wasn't that

:38:23.:38:26.

strong that could fulfil their needs. They will still be here and

:38:26.:38:33.

stay until more of their demands could be accomplished or be heard

:38:33.:38:37.

from Tantawi. Here on Tahrir Square, where I can still feel the teargas

:38:37.:38:43.

in my eyes, where tempers have risen and risen in recent days,

:38:43.:38:47.

most aren't satisfied by the Field Marshal's words, but this isn't

:38:47.:38:52.

Egypt, and the promise of a clear transition for a democracy, may

:38:52.:38:55.

play differently in other parts of the country. Here on the banks of

:38:56.:38:59.

the Nile, anger hasn't subsided, beyond there is a yearning for

:38:59.:39:02.

order and stability that the generals hope will work to their

:39:02.:39:07.

advantage. We were hoping to talk to the

:39:08.:39:11.

Egyptian novelist and activist, Ahdaf Soueif, who is in Cairo,

:39:11.:39:14.

apparently there is some problem with the line. We hope to get

:39:14.:39:17.

through before the end of the programme. Let's have a look at

:39:17.:39:27.
:39:27.:39:31.

tomorrow morning's front pages, A member of the financial stability

:39:31.:39:37.

panel hits out. This comes after, as we were reporting earlier, this

:39:37.:39:42.

great disquiet about the disparity of pay in this country. The Tahrir

:39:42.:39:47.

Square protests are on the front page too. The Egyptian general's

:39:47.:39:51.

pledge fails to quell new Tahrir Square's protests. And the Thomas

:39:51.:39:56.

Cook, the big business story domestically, their shares plunge

:39:56.:39:59.

domestically, their shares plunge 75% amid fresh talks on the debt

:39:59.:40:03.

burden. The Mail, and a few of the papers

:40:03.:40:07.

have the same story, a damming report into home help for the

:40:07.:40:11.

elderly, which finds neglect so appalling some wanted to dry. The

:40:11.:40:17.

cruelty of the careless. Thousands of elderly people being abused and

:40:17.:40:20.

neglected in their homes by the staff meant to car for them. In

:40:20.:40:24.

some cases treatment is -- care for them. In some cases the treatment

:40:24.:40:29.

is so bad that frail pensioners have been left wanting to die. It

:40:29.:40:32.

comes after studies exposing the shocking standard of care for old

:40:32.:40:35.

people in hospitals in care homes across the country. The Telegraph

:40:35.:40:40.

has the same story, the elderly abused by their carers. It also a

:40:40.:40:45.

story about David Cameron in �140,000 land deal with a lobbying

:40:45.:40:55.
:40:55.:40:56.

boss. On my copy here the print is We join Ahdaf Soueif, the Egyptian

:40:56.:41:02.

goflist and actist, she has been -- novelist and activist, she has been

:41:02.:41:05.

in Tahrir Square all day. We heard the military leadership promise

:41:05.:41:09.

they don't want to hold on to power and there will be presidential

:41:09.:41:12.

elections next June, why isn't that good enough for you and the

:41:12.:41:18.

protestors? Because we no longer believe them. Because we have been

:41:18.:41:21.

through this before with them, and before that with Mubarak, where

:41:21.:41:27.

things are promised and then they don't happen. If anybody had any

:41:27.:41:29.

doubts remaining after their performance over the last nine

:41:29.:41:32.

months, what they have done over the last three days should put an

:41:32.:41:35.

end to that. They have been killing people, they have been gassing

:41:35.:41:40.

people. Tahrir Square has been gassed as we speak. Alexandria,

:41:40.:41:44.

people are dying there, and in other parts of the country. So, you

:41:44.:41:48.

know, actions speak louder than words. We don't believe they will

:41:48.:41:52.

let go of power. All the evidence, it is too detailed to go into here,

:41:52.:41:56.

but the evidence in the detail of their proposals for the coming few

:41:56.:42:00.

months, show they don't intend to leave. Just to be clear. Are you

:42:00.:42:03.

saying, we have been reporting the protests in Cairo, are you saying

:42:03.:42:08.

they are elsewhere in the country, Alexandria, Suez and upper Egypt

:42:08.:42:17.

too, is it going on in other places? Alexandria, Suez, Aswan, it

:42:17.:42:22.

is everywhere. Haven't some things changed though for the better, you

:42:22.:42:26.

know, many exiles have gone home, there is a degree of press freedom

:42:26.:42:29.

and so on. I suppose what I'm saying is there no way you should

:42:30.:42:34.

be more patient about this, do you think? No, absolutely not. I think

:42:34.:42:39.

we need to save ourselves and get rid of them. We vpblt had exiles

:42:39.:42:43.

from Egypt -- we haven't had exiles from Egypt, people have always been

:42:43.:42:47.

free to come and go. We have a sense of press freedom, that has

:42:47.:42:51.

always been here. That is not because they haven't tried to shut

:42:51.:42:59.

it down. They have. State media has been just as bad, and playing just

:42:59.:43:04.

as unpleasant and treacherous a role as they have in the time of

:43:04.:43:08.

Mubarak. The one thing that has changed for the better is because

:43:08.:43:12.

we had the revolution in January and February, we believe in

:43:12.:43:16.

ourselves. And people have broken that barrier of fear. So they

:43:16.:43:23.

detain people, they torture them, when they come back on the streets

:43:23.:43:27.

they are back in Tahrir Square. What has changed is we know what we

:43:27.:43:30.

want and we know we can get it and we believe in ourselves. Do you

:43:30.:43:34.

think you can get it without more people being shot in the streets

:43:34.:43:39.

and being teargased, there may perhaps be more bloodshed? This is

:43:39.:43:43.

the terrible thing. We thought, on the 11th of February, when Mubarak

:43:43.:43:48.

stepped down, that we had already paid a pretty big price. Obviously

:43:48.:43:57.

that wasn't enough. We are paying a bigger price now. But the thing is,

:43:57.:44:02.

if people back down now it is the end. We really might as well not

:44:02.:44:06.

have done anything and back to the old regime. At some point very soon

:44:06.:44:10.

it will all start up again and more people will be killed and more

:44:10.:44:15.

people will die. It is everybody's choice now. There is no backing

:44:15.:44:20.

down. The military have to go. Right, but of course the history of

:44:20.:44:24.

the country has been since 1952, they have been at the centre of

:44:24.:44:29.

power, in slightly different ways. So 60 years of their military

:44:29.:44:32.

mystery, I'm just wondering what you would expect them to do over

:44:32.:44:39.

the next month or two, that would persuade you to return home to wait

:44:39.:44:47.

for the elections? They need to hand over power, to a civilian body.

:44:47.:44:51.

Whether it is a civilian Government or whether it is a civilian

:44:51.:44:55.

presidential council, it is quite clear, really, that the names are

:44:55.:44:58.

thank are put forward, everybody knows what they are. There is

:44:58.:45:01.

absolutely no reason why they shouldn't do that tonight. There is

:45:01.:45:05.

no reason why they shouldn't do that tomorrow. With full powers.

:45:05.:45:09.

Then they should put themselves where they belong, the military

:45:09.:45:13.

should be at the service of the country, and they should work under

:45:13.:45:17.

a civilian Government. We need them because we don't have a police

:45:17.:45:21.

force at the moment. So we would need the military to redeem itself,

:45:21.:45:27.

if you like, by continuing, by starting to look after our security,

:45:27.:45:31.

until such a time as we can get a police force back working. That

:45:31.:45:37.

really is the only thing they can do. No rhetoric, no words. I'm

:45:37.:45:39.

sorry we are running right out of time. Thank you very much for

:45:39.:45:43.

joining us from Cairo. That's all from Newsnight tonight.

:45:43.:45:46.

Tomorrow night the boss of British Gas will be here live, with Jeremy,

:45:46.:45:52.

to debate the rising cost of energy bills, it might be worth turning

:45:52.:46:02.
:46:02.:46:25.

It's chilly out there. In fact, a touch of frost developing across

:46:25.:46:28.

the southern half of the UK later on. Fog patches around too. Here

:46:28.:46:31.

the best of the sunshine through the day. Further north it will be

:46:31.:46:35.

cloudier, with rain around for Scotland and Northern Ireland. Mid-

:46:35.:46:40.

afternoon fine enough across most of the Midlands, a bit of patchy

:46:40.:46:44.

cloud, after the chilly start temperatures rising. The winds not

:46:44.:46:47.

strong, pleasant, a glorious November day across many southern

:46:47.:46:51.

counties of England, lots of blue sky with a crisp feel to things. Up

:46:51.:46:54.

across Wales there will be a gradual increase in cloud,

:46:54.:47:01.

particularly across more northern areas, maybe the odd spot of rain

:47:01.:47:03.

for Snowdonia. It will be windy afternoon across Northern Ireland,

:47:03.:47:07.

a lot of cloud, outbreaks of rain, particularly to the west of Belfast.

:47:07.:47:11.

Western parts of Scotland too will see some outbreaks of rain. To the

:47:11.:47:15.

east and the maint tains and later in the far north we should be dryer

:47:15.:47:19.

and brighter. A bit of a north- south split on Wednesday, with most

:47:19.:47:23.

of the rain across the north, things turning dryer for a time on

:47:23.:47:27.

Thursday, it will be a gusty wind. That will offset the mild

:47:28.:47:31.

temperatures. Further south mostly dry on Thursday, some sunshine,

:47:31.:47:35.

again temperatures some what higher than they will be on Wednesday.

:47:35.:47:40.

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