Browse content similar to 27/02/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The Sun is accused of sanctions thousands of pounds of illegal | 0:00:00 | 0:00:05 | |
payments to police and public servants. The Met reveals a network | 0:00:05 | 0:00:10 | |
of corrupt officials, paid by News International. We speak to Neville | 0:00:10 | 0:00:14 | |
Thurlbeck, the former chief reporter at News of the World. | 0:00:14 | 0:00:17 | |
Timing for News International couldn't be better. Today Charlotte | 0:00:17 | 0:00:24 | |
Church launched a scathing attack, as she received �600,000 in damages | 0:00:24 | 0:00:28 | |
over claims her phone was hacked. What I have learned has sickened | 0:00:28 | 0:00:33 | |
and disgusted me. Nothing was deemed off limits by those who | 0:00:33 | 0:00:38 | |
pursued me and my family to make money for news corporation. | 0:00:38 | 0:00:41 | |
speak to John Prescott, a former Chief Constable, and the Mirror's | 0:00:41 | 0:00:47 | |
former crime reporter in the studio. Fresh allegations against A4e, the | 0:00:47 | 0:00:51 | |
company that receivess thousands from the Government in contracts. | 0:00:51 | 0:00:54 | |
More discomfort, with the NHS reforms, this time from inside | 0:00:54 | 0:00:58 | |
Government as well. Nick Clegg approves an open letter, asking for | 0:00:58 | 0:01:03 | |
more changes. And was Putin the tart of a foiled | 0:01:03 | 0:01:06 | |
assassination attack, or is Soviet history being repeated ahead of the | 0:01:06 | 0:01:12 | |
elections. TRANSLATION: All of these famous | 0:01:12 | 0:01:17 | |
processes against the Trotskyists, will be built on allegations of | 0:01:17 | 0:01:27 | |
0:01:27 | 0:01:32 | ||
Good evening. The Sun newspaper stands accused tonight of sanctions | 0:01:32 | 0:01:36 | |
payments of tens of thousands of pounds to corrupt officials within | 0:01:36 | 0:01:40 | |
the police and other public bodies. In one of the most explosion | 0:01:40 | 0:01:45 | |
allegations, that the Leveson Inquiry has yet heard, Deputy | 0:01:45 | 0:01:48 | |
Assistant Commissioner, Sue Akers, said the paper had a culture of | 0:01:48 | 0:01:51 | |
illegal payments authorised at the most senior level, and suggested | 0:01:51 | 0:01:56 | |
some public officials had been put on retainer. She vowed to expose | 0:01:56 | 0:01:59 | |
those who had received cash and see them brought to justice. | 0:01:59 | 0:02:06 | |
The inquiry heard the former News International editors, Rebekah Wade, | 0:02:06 | 0:02:11 | |
and Andy Coulson, were warned that there was widespread hacking as | 0:02:11 | 0:02:15 | |
early as 2006. We speak to former News of the World reporter, Neville | 0:02:15 | 0:02:25 | |
0:02:25 | 0:02:25 | ||
This is how the relationship between the police and the press | 0:02:25 | 0:02:30 | |
should work. One needs stories to fill the paper, the other needs | 0:02:30 | 0:02:33 | |
publicity to help solve crimes, everyone is a winner. But you will | 0:02:33 | 0:02:37 | |
note, from this old news real, no money changes hands. It was, | 0:02:37 | 0:02:42 | |
apparently, a completely different matter at News International. Today | 0:02:42 | 0:02:46 | |
the second part of the Leveson Inquiry began, with damming | 0:02:46 | 0:02:51 | |
allegations of wholesale corruption. The relationship between the police | 0:02:51 | 0:02:54 | |
and the media, and News International in particular, was, | 0:02:54 | 0:03:01 | |
at best, inappropriately close, and if not, actual lie corrupt, -- if | 0:03:01 | 0:03:06 | |
not actually corrupt, very close to it. Today the investigation into | 0:03:06 | 0:03:11 | |
phone hacking and police corruption, Sue Akers in, uniform, gave an | 0:03:11 | 0:03:17 | |
update on what has happened so far, police taking significant sums of | 0:03:17 | 0:03:24 | |
money from the Sun. One was paid in excess of �80,000, and one arrested | 0:03:24 | 0:03:28 | |
journalist receiving �150,000 in cash to pay his sources, some of | 0:03:28 | 0:03:32 | |
whom were public officials. payments had been made not only to | 0:03:32 | 0:03:37 | |
police officers, but a wide range of public officials. So there are | 0:03:37 | 0:03:41 | |
catagories as well as police, military, health, Government, | 0:03:41 | 0:03:47 | |
prison and others. It suggests that payments were being made to public | 0:03:47 | 0:03:53 | |
officials who were in all areas of public life. I have said that the | 0:03:53 | 0:03:57 | |
current assessment is it reveals a network of corrupted officials. | 0:03:57 | 0:04:07 | |
0:04:07 | 0:04:13 | ||
That is a relative who allegedly helped hide a payment. The police | 0:04:13 | 0:04:19 | |
abecause the payments were in cash, only a few of the reacceptents have | 0:04:19 | 0:04:23 | |
been so far been -- recipients have been identified. There was a | 0:04:23 | 0:04:28 | |
culture at the Sun of illegal payments, and systems were created | 0:04:28 | 0:04:31 | |
to facilitate those payment, while hiding the identity of the | 0:04:31 | 0:04:35 | |
officials receiving the money. the former News International | 0:04:35 | 0:04:38 | |
editor, and former News International chief executive, | 0:04:38 | 0:04:46 | |
Duwayne Brooks, gave evidence to a Commons investigation - Rebecca | 0:04:46 | 0:04:50 | |
Brooks gave evidence, she did confirm that the police were paid, | 0:04:51 | 0:04:57 | |
in 200. We have paid the police in the past. Will you do it in the | 0:04:57 | 0:05:02 | |
future? You are operating within the law, it is the same for | 0:05:02 | 0:05:06 | |
subterfuge, and video bags. It is illegal for police officers to | 0:05:06 | 0:05:10 | |
receive payments. I said within the law. Much later she issued a | 0:05:10 | 0:05:13 | |
statement saying she had no knowledge of any payments at News | 0:05:13 | 0:05:18 | |
International to the police. There are many examples of how this close | 0:05:18 | 0:05:23 | |
relationship works. When Neil and Christine Hamilton went to a police | 0:05:23 | 0:05:25 | |
station to answer questions about a completely false allegation of rape, | 0:05:25 | 0:05:31 | |
they saw how the tip-offs worked. They had been promised no press and | 0:05:31 | 0:05:35 | |
no publicity, and yet, this is what they got. Within ten minutes of our | 0:05:35 | 0:05:39 | |
arrival, journalists started to dribble into the street outside. By | 0:05:39 | 0:05:44 | |
the time we came out, after two or three hours of questioning, there | 0:05:44 | 0:05:49 | |
were about 150 or so journalists round, not just Fleet Street | 0:05:49 | 0:05:54 | |
journalists, but radio, TV, sound booms, cameras, the lot. It was a | 0:05:54 | 0:05:56 | |
bit like the Oscars ceremony in reverse. | 0:05:56 | 0:06:00 | |
You might have thought that once the police began their | 0:06:00 | 0:06:04 | |
investigation into illegal activities at the News of the World, | 0:06:04 | 0:06:06 | |
this contact between News International and the police would | 0:06:06 | 0:06:12 | |
have stopped. Actually, far from it. Today, the inquiry was shown an | 0:06:12 | 0:06:16 | |
extraordinary e-mail that suggests that, not only was the chief | 0:06:16 | 0:06:20 | |
executive of News International, Rebecca Brooks, being briefed on | 0:06:20 | 0:06:24 | |
the investigation, that the police were carrying out, she was also | 0:06:24 | 0:06:29 | |
consulted on how far she thought that investigation should go. | 0:06:29 | 0:06:39 | |
0:06:39 | 0:06:53 | ||
The e-mail is from the chief lawyer At the end News International were | 0:06:53 | 0:06:56 | |
insisting that nobody else was involved. But the e-mail goes on to | 0:06:56 | 0:07:02 | |
say that the police have a list of up to 110 victims and payment | 0:07:02 | 0:07:07 | |
records of News International to Mulcaire of over �1 million. This | 0:07:07 | 0:07:12 | |
was a huge operation, not just one rogue reporter. The e-mail says it | 0:07:12 | 0:07:17 | |
demonstrates a pattern of victims replaced by the next one, who | 0:07:17 | 0:07:27 | |
0:07:27 | 0:07:32 | ||
becomes flavour of the week or Today the former Deputy Prime | 0:07:32 | 0:07:35 | |
Minister, giving his own evidence to the Leveson Inquiry, was clear | 0:07:35 | 0:07:40 | |
what he thought had happened. are highly-paid, highly-intelligent | 0:07:40 | 0:07:46 | |
people, I think there is more a conspiracy of silence to hide the | 0:07:46 | 0:07:51 | |
facts, I'm stronger of that view in the last few months. Today another | 0:07:51 | 0:07:54 | |
celebrity settled with News International, Charlotte Church | 0:07:54 | 0:07:58 | |
accepting �600,000 in compensation. Did the police investigation into | 0:07:58 | 0:08:02 | |
phone hacking fail, because police were too close to News | 0:08:02 | 0:08:08 | |
International? There are plenty more witnesses and hearings to come. | 0:08:08 | 0:08:15 | |
Joining us now is Neville Thurlbeck, the former news editor and chief | 0:08:15 | 0:08:23 | |
reporter at News of the World. He's now -- he was arrested for his | 0:08:23 | 0:08:29 | |
involvement in phone hacking and bailed until next month, for legal | 0:08:29 | 0:08:33 | |
reasons we can't ask him questions relating to that case, for the | 0:08:33 | 0:08:37 | |
record he denies phone hacking. Neville Thurlbeck, Sue Akers lists | 0:08:37 | 0:08:41 | |
the payments to police and public officials, do you recognise that | 0:08:41 | 0:08:45 | |
culture in your newsroom? Not in the News of the World. In my time | 0:08:45 | 0:08:51 | |
there when I was news editor, 2001- 2003, I was in charge of looking at | 0:08:51 | 0:08:56 | |
what payments were being made, and to whom. At no time was I even | 0:08:56 | 0:09:01 | |
requested by a reporter to pay a police officer, it simply didn't | 0:09:01 | 0:09:07 | |
cross our radar. The editor at the time, during my period on the news | 0:09:07 | 0:09:11 | |
desk was Rebekah Brookes, and latterly, Andy Coulson, and again, | 0:09:12 | 0:09:21 | |
0:09:22 | 0:09:24 | ||
those two individuals they never requested we pay anyone. You insist | 0:09:24 | 0:09:28 | |
it only happened it at the Sun and never at the News of the World? | 0:09:28 | 0:09:32 | |
don't say it happened at the Sun either, I don't say that at all. We | 0:09:32 | 0:09:35 | |
have to see where the evidence takes us on that. You are saying | 0:09:35 | 0:09:39 | |
you think she's wrong? That the criminality exists on the Sun. | 0:09:39 | 0:09:43 | |
There was a very strayed forward remark from Akers, there was a cull | 0:09:43 | 0:09:50 | |
-- straight forward remark from Sue Akers, there was a culture of | 0:09:50 | 0:09:52 | |
paying officials, thousands of pounds are you saying that didn't | 0:09:52 | 0:09:56 | |
happen at the Sun? I don't think anybody knows outside the police | 0:09:56 | 0:10:02 | |
force. She also said that people who were connected to these public | 0:10:02 | 0:10:08 | |
officials were being paid. Now that is often the case. Sometimes | 0:10:08 | 0:10:11 | |
journalists get information, secondhand, not necessarily from | 0:10:11 | 0:10:15 | |
the film star, or the police officer, but from a friend of the | 0:10:15 | 0:10:21 | |
film star or the friend of the police officer. Did that happen at | 0:10:21 | 0:10:24 | |
News of the World? These people wouldn't always reveal their | 0:10:24 | 0:10:27 | |
sources or how they got the information. You knew money was | 0:10:27 | 0:10:30 | |
changing hands and going to sources? It would be up to us to | 0:10:30 | 0:10:33 | |
check the information. You couldn't check out the voracity of every | 0:10:33 | 0:10:36 | |
single contact that came into the office. It wouldn't have been a | 0:10:36 | 0:10:39 | |
surprise to you to know that money was being paid to sources for the | 0:10:39 | 0:10:43 | |
kind of scoops that News of the World was clearly getting at the | 0:10:43 | 0:10:47 | |
time? Newspapers right across Fleet Street, historically, have always | 0:10:47 | 0:10:51 | |
paid money for good stories. This has been going on for 150 years, I | 0:10:51 | 0:10:55 | |
don't think there is anything new in that. Presumably you paid money | 0:10:55 | 0:10:59 | |
to those friends, to friends of friends, to officials? We paid | 0:10:59 | 0:11:05 | |
money to a variety of sources. But what I'm telling you now. Including | 0:11:05 | 0:11:11 | |
police officers, including? Not at all. I'm making myself very clear | 0:11:11 | 0:11:15 | |
on this, forgive me for repeating it one more time. We never paid | 0:11:15 | 0:11:18 | |
police officers money for stories. Could you have paid friends of | 0:11:18 | 0:11:20 | |
police officers, could you have paid police officers through other | 0:11:20 | 0:11:24 | |
means? I have got no way of telling if that happened. I think it would | 0:11:24 | 0:11:29 | |
be a physical impossibility, to check out the family tree of every | 0:11:29 | 0:11:32 | |
single person that came knocking at our door. It is interesting that, | 0:11:32 | 0:11:37 | |
for example, one journalist submitted one expense of �150,000 | 0:11:37 | 0:11:43 | |
over the years, to pay out sources. That's entirely credible. And one | 0:11:43 | 0:11:49 | |
person received �80,000? Let's put this into perspective. A journalist | 0:11:49 | 0:11:53 | |
who pays 150,000 to his contacts, over 20 years, isn't a significant | 0:11:53 | 0:12:01 | |
amount of money. When he might be paying, for example �15,000, or | 0:12:01 | 0:12:07 | |
�20,000. We don't know if it was twenty years, it could have been | 0:12:07 | 0:12:10 | |
two years? Some of the people had been on the newspapers for 40 years. | 0:12:10 | 0:12:13 | |
These were crime stories, who was being paid, who would have the | 0:12:13 | 0:12:15 | |
information, if it wasn't the police and the public bodies, who | 0:12:15 | 0:12:19 | |
do you think the money was going to? There is a variety of sources. | 0:12:19 | 0:12:24 | |
When I was crime reporter, a lot of my sources came from people who | 0:12:24 | 0:12:28 | |
were connected to the investigations, they might even be | 0:12:28 | 0:12:32 | |
criminals themselves. They might be police informants. Did you pay | 0:12:32 | 0:12:37 | |
criminals and police informants? didn't pay criminals. Who did you | 0:12:37 | 0:12:40 | |
pay? You would pay people who would have knowledge of what is going on. | 0:12:41 | 0:12:44 | |
Who were those people? They would be people who knew police officers, | 0:12:44 | 0:12:48 | |
people who were perhaps friends of police officers. You know people, | 0:12:48 | 0:12:51 | |
the information is given...It highly possible that some of that | 0:12:51 | 0:12:56 | |
money went back to the police or public officials? We have no way of | 0:12:56 | 0:13:01 | |
telling that. What I'm telling you is, that information can often, is | 0:13:01 | 0:13:05 | |
often frequently given to newspapers second and third hand. | 0:13:05 | 0:13:08 | |
Now the originator of that information might inadvertantly be | 0:13:08 | 0:13:12 | |
a police officer, but the person who comes to you is perhaps two or | 0:13:12 | 0:13:16 | |
three people down that chain. It is the same with showbiz and short. | 0:13:16 | 0:13:21 | |
What type of some would you imagine changing hands for that kind of | 0:13:21 | 0:13:26 | |
scoop? What sort of scoop. A major front page scoop on News of the | 0:13:26 | 0:13:30 | |
World, a cover story? A front page splash of the News of the World, is | 0:13:30 | 0:13:36 | |
that what you are asking me to give you a figure on? It would be in the | 0:13:36 | 0:13:42 | |
order of between �5,000 to �25,000, depending on the priority the | 0:13:42 | 0:13:46 | |
editor gave the story at the time. For a crime story? Not necessarily | 0:13:46 | 0:13:50 | |
that much for a crime story. These days they tend to command smaller | 0:13:50 | 0:13:54 | |
currency, I would say, probably talking in the order of hundreds | 0:13:54 | 0:13:58 | |
rather than thousands. You could be paying that kind of money to one | 0:13:58 | 0:14:03 | |
source? That is not unusual, that is Fleet Street-wide, it is not | 0:14:03 | 0:14:07 | |
unique to News International titles. Sue Akers is saying that there was | 0:14:08 | 0:14:12 | |
a culture of illegal payments, she stresses there was illegal payment, | 0:14:12 | 0:14:16 | |
why would she say illegal if it wasn't payment that had been | 0:14:16 | 0:14:21 | |
outlawed, for example, going to the wrong people? This act, the 1906 | 0:14:21 | 0:14:26 | |
anti-Corruption Act was frameed, prevention of Corruption Act, was | 0:14:26 | 0:14:30 | |
framed to discourage police officers from turning a blind eye | 0:14:30 | 0:14:37 | |
toe armed robberies. Under the terms of that act we are now | 0:14:37 | 0:14:43 | |
prosecuting, potentially, journalists for taking possession | 0:14:43 | 0:14:48 | |
of what Sue Akers called today salacious gossip. These people, | 0:14:48 | 0:14:50 | |
these journalists could be potentially facing three years in | 0:14:51 | 0:14:55 | |
jail, and the loss of their careers, their livelihoods and reputation | 0:14:55 | 0:15:00 | |
for the sake of this 1906 act. She's talking about illegal | 0:15:00 | 0:15:04 | |
payments and people being put on retainers? I have no knowledge of | 0:15:05 | 0:15:12 | |
this. But it is possible, that happened. That people were put on | 0:15:12 | 0:15:15 | |
retainers, presumably those are the people that give you not just one | 0:15:15 | 0:15:19 | |
story, but story after story? not here to defend any criminality, | 0:15:19 | 0:15:24 | |
all I'm saying is this. Were you aware of those retained? | 0:15:24 | 0:15:28 | |
Nottingham Forest aware of any criminality, I'm not -- I'm not | 0:15:28 | 0:15:32 | |
aware of any criminality, I'm not here to defend it. I'm saying there | 0:15:32 | 0:15:37 | |
should be a perspective put on this, and it shouldn't be looking through | 0:15:37 | 0:15:43 | |
the prisism of the Prevention of Corruption Act, it is too heavy a | 0:15:43 | 0:15:49 | |
sledgehammer to crack the nut. Let's hear about the e-mail from | 0:15:49 | 0:15:53 | |
Tom Crone to Rebekah Brooks and Andy Coulson, that there was | 0:15:53 | 0:15:56 | |
widespread hacking, and Rebekah Brooks was consulted by the police | 0:15:56 | 0:16:00 | |
on how far the investigation should go. What are we to make of that? | 0:16:00 | 0:16:04 | |
have said, before I came on the show tonight, I'm not going to | 0:16:04 | 0:16:07 | |
discuss anything to do with Operation Weeting tonight. We're | 0:16:07 | 0:16:11 | |
encrouching on that by talking about that particular memo, I'm | 0:16:11 | 0:16:16 | |
afraid, Emily. You think this suggests a major cover-up, | 0:16:16 | 0:16:19 | |
somewhere at the top of News International? I didn't say that. | 0:16:19 | 0:16:26 | |
Do you think that it does? I didn't say that, I'm not going into any | 0:16:26 | 0:16:29 | |
matters concerning Operation Weeting. Do you think you reached a | 0:16:29 | 0:16:32 | |
point in your career, you have been very clear with with where you | 0:16:32 | 0:16:35 | |
stand and what you think happened at the newspaper, when you were | 0:16:35 | 0:16:40 | |
there, did you reach a point in your career when you felt things | 0:16:40 | 0:16:44 | |
had gone too far, they were the wrong side of the moral equation? | 0:16:44 | 0:16:51 | |
All I will say is this, if there was a say the of criminality | 0:16:51 | 0:16:59 | |
reached, on our newspaper, it was confined to a very tiny number of | 0:16:59 | 0:17:06 | |
desperate people, but by and large, almost 99.9% of my colleagues were | 0:17:06 | 0:17:08 | |
first class decent, honourable journalists. | 0:17:08 | 0:17:13 | |
Thank you very much. Joining me now, the former deputy | 0:17:13 | 0:17:18 | |
PM, John, now Lord Prescott, the former Chief Constable of Thames | 0:17:18 | 0:17:22 | |
Valley Police, Peter Neyroud, author of an official review of | 0:17:22 | 0:17:25 | |
police ethics, and Jeff Edwards, the former chief crime | 0:17:25 | 0:17:32 | |
correspondent for the Daily Mirror, President of the Crime Reporters' | 0:17:32 | 0:17:36 | |
Association. What do you make of what you have | 0:17:36 | 0:17:40 | |
just heard? From someone who has been campaigning for five years | 0:17:40 | 0:17:43 | |
suggesting they were doing all these things, as Akers point the | 0:17:43 | 0:17:47 | |
out in the inquiry today, it is not just -- pointed out in the inquiry | 0:17:47 | 0:17:52 | |
today, it is not just that it happened, but it was that it was | 0:17:52 | 0:17:56 | |
maintained a lie, they said it was one rogue reporter and only the | 0:17:56 | 0:17:59 | |
News of the World, and now it is the Sun, all maintained they did | 0:17:59 | 0:18:03 | |
full investigations and there was no evidence to prove it. Now it is | 0:18:03 | 0:18:07 | |
their own people that give e-mail that is clearly shows bribery of | 0:18:07 | 0:18:10 | |
the police was under way. Let's see what comes out of the investigation | 0:18:10 | 0:18:18 | |
and the crime. Getting together in a kind of conspiracy of silence, to | 0:18:18 | 0:18:23 | |
and perpetuate the lie. The papers used to say when I attacked them | 0:18:23 | 0:18:27 | |
and others, they quoted what Mr Yates says, and there was no | 0:18:27 | 0:18:30 | |
evidence. And when the police said, they said quote what the | 0:18:30 | 0:18:34 | |
investigations of the press have done. Both xierd to maintain the | 0:18:34 | 0:18:41 | |
lie. That is what -- conspired to maintain the lie. Sue Akers talked | 0:18:41 | 0:18:46 | |
about Whitehall and other public officials? That has extended it | 0:18:46 | 0:18:51 | |
further than we thought. We have heard a systemic system to bribe | 0:18:51 | 0:18:55 | |
anywhere on a long-term basis to get the stories. It tends to | 0:18:55 | 0:18:58 | |
concentrate on celebrities or people like myself that are known. | 0:18:58 | 0:19:03 | |
What were they doing on the thousands of other cases, it is the | 0:19:03 | 0:19:06 | |
ordinary people, the police in this case lost the trust and confidence | 0:19:06 | 0:19:09 | |
of people, because they were allowing this to go on. It was a | 0:19:09 | 0:19:15 | |
total contempt of trust. Peter Neyroud, you could say this is | 0:19:15 | 0:19:18 | |
actually the most frightening element of this whole inquiry, a | 0:19:18 | 0:19:23 | |
tight knit circle of influence and corruption between public | 0:19:23 | 0:19:26 | |
institutions? There is two or three things that have emerged. The level | 0:19:26 | 0:19:29 | |
of corruption of police officers through the organisation, which | 0:19:29 | 0:19:34 | |
started off as stkwrus a few, now seems to be -- just a few, now | 0:19:34 | 0:19:37 | |
seems to be quite considerable. It needs to be dealt with. It is easy | 0:19:37 | 0:19:41 | |
to think about corruption that has been there, go back into the 1970s | 0:19:41 | 0:19:45 | |
there were periods of corruption, this appears to be another one of | 0:19:45 | 0:19:49 | |
those T appears to be the organisation just didn't appreciate | 0:19:49 | 0:19:53 | |
how damaging the relationship could be and has become. | 0:19:53 | 0:20:00 | |
Sue Akers says she will route out all those who received bungs, | 0:20:00 | 0:20:04 | |
bribes -- root out all those who received bungs, bribes whatever, | 0:20:04 | 0:20:09 | |
what would you do if you were head of the Met, would you go and seek | 0:20:09 | 0:20:13 | |
these people? Yes, exactly as is being done. You have to, we now | 0:20:13 | 0:20:16 | |
understand, not just the activities of individuals, but the damage that | 0:20:16 | 0:20:20 | |
Lord Prescott has pointed out, it is doing to the police's reputation, | 0:20:20 | 0:20:23 | |
and the trust the public has about how the information the police have | 0:20:23 | 0:20:27 | |
got is being used. Do you think differently about the police now, | 0:20:27 | 0:20:32 | |
do you think about become ago police commissioner? It wasn't | 0:20:32 | 0:20:40 | |
because of -- Becoming a police commissioner? It wasn't because | 0:20:40 | 0:20:43 | |
what the community had some influence over the police, in a | 0:20:43 | 0:20:46 | |
democracy, it is the other way round. That question is raised with | 0:20:46 | 0:20:55 | |
the arguments of regional police commissioners. The police have been | 0:20:55 | 0:20:59 | |
in the spotlight, Neville Thurlbeck is making it clear that it is a | 0:20:59 | 0:21:03 | |
normal part of life in Fleet Street, and that kind of payment just goes | 0:21:03 | 0:21:08 | |
on? I can absolutely refute that. Certainly when I was at the Mirror, | 0:21:08 | 0:21:15 | |
there was not a culture like that at all. Interestingly, between | 0:21:15 | 0:21:18 | |
1980-1985, I was employed at the News of the World as crime | 0:21:18 | 0:21:21 | |
correspondent, I was removed from my post because of my complete | 0:21:21 | 0:21:23 | |
reluctance and refusal to pay police officers. You think you lost | 0:21:24 | 0:21:27 | |
your job because of that? I was told so. I didn't leave the company, | 0:21:27 | 0:21:31 | |
but I was removed from that post and somebody else was put into it | 0:21:31 | 0:21:34 | |
who was more prepared to take that kind of action. Shortly after that | 0:21:34 | 0:21:40 | |
I got another job somewhere else, because you know...Describe What | 0:21:40 | 0:21:46 | |
you knew from that newsroom then? think there was, it was very hard | 0:21:46 | 0:21:51 | |
to think back about specifics then, but there was always, I thought, at | 0:21:51 | 0:21:56 | |
the News of the World, a deeply rooted culture of underhandness, of | 0:21:56 | 0:22:03 | |
corrupt practice. I think that I had come in from London evening | 0:22:03 | 0:22:07 | |
newspapers where there was no history or tradition of that sort | 0:22:07 | 0:22:15 | |
of behaviour, and I built my reputation on doing the job | 0:22:15 | 0:22:20 | |
transparently and honestly, being an honest broker. To an extent I | 0:22:20 | 0:22:23 | |
knew what I was entering, but I was hoping that I would actually be | 0:22:23 | 0:22:28 | |
able to change things. That wasn't the case at all. Did you know this | 0:22:28 | 0:22:32 | |
existed, did everyone quietly accept that it existed? Not to this | 0:22:32 | 0:22:37 | |
scale. Certainly, when in Thames valley and earlier on I was a press | 0:22:37 | 0:22:40 | |
officer in Hampshire earlier on in my career, I certainly was awar of | 0:22:40 | 0:22:43 | |
individual police officers, for example, who were passing | 0:22:43 | 0:22:45 | |
information -- aware of individual police officers passing | 0:22:45 | 0:22:49 | |
manufactures off logs. They wouldn't be disciplined? We tried | 0:22:50 | 0:22:55 | |
to seek them out and prosecute, in Thames valley. We certainly sought | 0:22:55 | 0:22:58 | |
them out. I think Lord Leveson has made it clear it is no longer | 0:22:58 | 0:23:05 | |
business as usual. There is a total and utter failure | 0:23:05 | 0:23:10 | |
of the press complaints industry, there was the body not able to do | 0:23:10 | 0:23:14 | |
anything about it and admit the press was lying to them. What was | 0:23:14 | 0:23:16 | |
interesting about Neville Thurlbeck, is he made it sound like friends | 0:23:16 | 0:23:19 | |
and friends of police, might have received payments, but they never | 0:23:19 | 0:23:23 | |
received them directly, did you know that went on, was that a | 0:23:23 | 0:23:29 | |
recognised pattern? Some of that, and certainly the looking for the | 0:23:29 | 0:23:33 | |
cousin, the niece, the wife, et cetera, I have had some | 0:23:33 | 0:23:37 | |
investigations in Thames valley that led to that. I think the | 0:23:37 | 0:23:39 | |
biggest problem that the Metropolitan Police have certainly | 0:23:39 | 0:23:47 | |
faced is a very small number of former police officers, who have | 0:23:47 | 0:23:51 | |
been quick to exploit being a conduit between acting police | 0:23:51 | 0:23:55 | |
officers, acting as a cut-out, they are the people who get paid. They | 0:23:55 | 0:23:58 | |
probably pass money on to the serving police officers. Is it ever | 0:23:58 | 0:24:05 | |
OK to leak to the press? No. It isn't. I think it is. I think it is | 0:24:05 | 0:24:08 | |
sometimes. You would be amazed at the sort of level I have had | 0:24:09 | 0:24:12 | |
information leaked from, up to Chief Constable level, on occasions. | 0:24:12 | 0:24:16 | |
Sometimes it has been, sometimes it has been well thought through, it | 0:24:16 | 0:24:23 | |
there has been a specific purpose behind it. One man's leak is | 0:24:23 | 0:24:27 | |
somebody else's pro-active piece of information. When the person acting | 0:24:27 | 0:24:33 | |
for the Met said it is right to have lunch with the News of the | 0:24:33 | 0:24:37 | |
World, under investigation, what other Police Authority does that? | 0:24:37 | 0:24:41 | |
Thank you very much gentlemen. There is more pressure tonight on | 0:24:41 | 0:24:45 | |
the welfare-to-work company, A4e, who have hundreds of millions worth | 0:24:45 | 0:24:51 | |
of Government contracts, and are at the centre of a police fraud | 0:24:51 | 0:24:56 | |
inquiry. There was always for the - - calls for the contracts to be | 0:24:56 | 0:25:00 | |
extended. Emma Harrison, the chair of the company, has quit her job. | 0:25:00 | 0:25:06 | |
We heard further allegations from A4e from a former client. | 0:25:06 | 0:25:12 | |
It was all pally once, the employment consultancy A4e, was | 0:25:12 | 0:25:15 | |
making millions from Government contracts, the Government, like the | 0:25:15 | 0:25:19 | |
last, happy to use a private sector specialist to get the unemployed | 0:25:19 | 0:25:24 | |
back into work. It was pally too between A4e's boss and David | 0:25:24 | 0:25:29 | |
Cameron, he made her his back to work Tsar. Now the relationship is | 0:25:29 | 0:25:33 | |
mired in accusations of fraud and cover-up. | 0:25:33 | 0:25:38 | |
Last week four former staff at A4e were arrested for fraud. Emma | 0:25:38 | 0:25:41 | |
Harrison stepped down as David Cameron's adviser, and then as the | 0:25:41 | 0:25:46 | |
boss of A4e itself. But questions remain. What did the Government | 0:25:46 | 0:25:50 | |
know about A4e and its boss, and when? When you are appointing | 0:25:50 | 0:25:55 | |
advisers for a half a billion pound programme, you normally make | 0:25:55 | 0:26:00 | |
background checks. We want to know did the Prime Minister ask the back | 0:26:00 | 0:26:08 | |
office were there any problems appointing Harrison. Did the office | 0:26:08 | 0:26:11 | |
say there was a fraud investigation under way in Emma Harrison's | 0:26:11 | 0:26:15 | |
company, at the moment we haven't any answers. This woman, unemployed | 0:26:15 | 0:26:19 | |
from Leicester, has raised questions about A4e's practices, | 0:26:19 | 0:26:24 | |
she was offered a job on in sales on �7,000 a year plus commission. | 0:26:24 | 0:26:29 | |
When she asked for the terms and conditions in writing, things got | 0:26:29 | 0:26:32 | |
complicated. A4e called me on Monday to say I had the job. I | 0:26:32 | 0:26:35 | |
asked if I could have that in writing, if I could have the | 0:26:35 | 0:26:38 | |
details of the job, the pay, the hours, the terms and conditions of | 0:26:38 | 0:26:43 | |
the job, just in writing, just so I knew exactly what it was I was | 0:26:43 | 0:26:47 | |
agreeing to. What did they say? They said that would make me seem | 0:26:47 | 0:26:52 | |
awkward to the employier, and that is not how -- employer, and that is | 0:26:52 | 0:26:58 | |
not how businesses work. It was then she said they made an | 0:26:58 | 0:27:02 | |
extraordinary suggestion? They said you don't have to tell the | 0:27:02 | 0:27:05 | |
Jobcentre, try it for a week without telling the Jobcentre. | 0:27:05 | 0:27:10 | |
they told you to work without telling the Jobcentre how did it | 0:27:10 | 0:27:13 | |
make you feel? Well I want to be a police officer, and I'm interested | 0:27:13 | 0:27:20 | |
in the law and abiding by it. To be told to be against the rules of my | 0:27:20 | 0:27:30 | |
0:27:30 | 0:27:46 | ||
benefit claim, that is not OK to me. A4e has launched its own internal | 0:27:46 | 0:27:50 | |
investigation into the fraud claims. But pressure is growing in | 0:27:50 | 0:27:54 | |
parliament to suspend its contracts. I have been astonished by the | 0:27:54 | 0:28:01 | |
number of e-mails, letters and phone calls I have had, both from | 0:28:01 | 0:28:07 | |
ex-employees and clients of A4e, full of allegations, both of | 0:28:07 | 0:28:12 | |
malpractice and of poor practice. That is why I have consistently | 0:28:12 | 0:28:16 | |
said that any common sense attitude by the Government now would mean | 0:28:16 | 0:28:22 | |
that they should call a halt to the A4e work, suspend the contracts, | 0:28:22 | 0:28:27 | |
right across Government, carry out their own investigation, don't | 0:28:27 | 0:28:30 | |
depend on the A4e's internal investigation, and refer all | 0:28:30 | 0:28:34 | |
further allegations to the police. Companies that help ministers meet | 0:28:34 | 0:28:37 | |
targets can find it easy to make friends in high places, while it | 0:28:37 | 0:28:43 | |
was bidding for work, under Labour, A4e employed the former minister, | 0:28:43 | 0:28:48 | |
David Blunkett, as a consultant. Then it employed a former Cameron | 0:28:48 | 0:28:56 | |
staffer, one Jaunty Olive Cooper as head of strategy. Now it has viewer | 0:28:56 | 0:29:00 | |
friends and faces questions. A4e said the Government was told of the | 0:29:00 | 0:29:04 | |
fraud investigation in November 2010, ten days before David Cameron | 0:29:04 | 0:29:08 | |
appointed Emma Harrison as his adviser. Tonight the DWP said they | 0:29:08 | 0:29:12 | |
were only formally notified in February 2011. The question is who | 0:29:12 | 0:29:19 | |
is right? In a molt the Russian oligarch, | 0:29:19 | 0:29:29 | |
0:29:29 | 0:29:31 | ||
Beresford bears, will debate -- -- In a letter co-signed by the Lib | 0:29:31 | 0:29:35 | |
Dem peer Shirley Williams, he said he backed amendments to limit | 0:29:35 | 0:29:40 | |
competition and the role of the private sector, will pressure from | 0:29:40 | 0:29:46 | |
the Lib Dems, even at the top, have an affect on David Camerons plans | 0:29:46 | 0:29:49 | |
for the health service. Was the letter a surprise? Not really, | 0:29:49 | 0:29:52 | |
today, Monday and Wednesday, would always be the big votes in the | 0:29:52 | 0:29:57 | |
Lords, and the Liberal Democrats in the Lords are amongst the most | 0:29:57 | 0:30:00 | |
vocal opponents of the bill. It would always come to a head. Now we | 0:30:00 | 0:30:04 | |
have this letter, Nick Clegg and Shirley Williams co-signed. What is | 0:30:04 | 0:30:08 | |
interesting is you have spring conference, where you will see all | 0:30:08 | 0:30:13 | |
the activists. Alongside the Lib Dem peers you have another | 0:30:13 | 0:30:16 | |
disgruntled group. He had to be seen to come out and get something | 0:30:16 | 0:30:19 | |
from the Government in terms of the bill. That is what we have seen | 0:30:19 | 0:30:23 | |
from the letter. What is interesting from the clip we will | 0:30:23 | 0:30:26 | |
play, is he's self-conscious that the Prime Minister knew and the | 0:30:26 | 0:30:29 | |
Prime Minister gave him the OK to go ahead and write the letter. | 0:30:29 | 0:30:36 | |
course we have discussed these in Government, there are, as you know, | 0:30:36 | 0:30:40 | |
a much wider range of amendments being debated in the coming days. | 0:30:40 | 0:30:43 | |
It is important to address the concerns people have expressed | 0:30:43 | 0:30:47 | |
about the role of competition. I have always regarded competition as | 0:30:47 | 0:30:52 | |
a means to a better NHS and not an end in itself. That is why the | 0:30:52 | 0:30:56 | |
amendments will make it clear that competition is the servant of the | 0:30:56 | 0:31:01 | |
NHS, never the master. It sound perfectly choreographed, were the | 0:31:01 | 0:31:06 | |
Tories upset by the demands? They would say, actually these demands, | 0:31:06 | 0:31:11 | |
it sounds like he's calling for an end to capitalism when you read the | 0:31:11 | 0:31:15 | |
letter, but when you boil them down, they are five or six demands across | 0:31:15 | 0:31:20 | |
disparate areas of the bill. If he wanted to go for the area he said | 0:31:20 | 0:31:24 | |
he did, which is competition, he would strike out section 3, which | 0:31:24 | 0:31:28 | |
the Labour Party say they will do, he's not calling forethat. They are | 0:31:28 | 0:31:31 | |
incredibly complicated things he's calling for, and they are | 0:31:31 | 0:31:35 | |
meaningful, but they are not there, let's get rid of that, we have done | 0:31:35 | 0:31:41 | |
it. It is difficult to fully agree with how he has claimed it. The | 0:31:41 | 0:31:44 | |
other thing, you have to remember there is a series of things being | 0:31:44 | 0:31:48 | |
negotiated across Government, not just the NHS bill, a huge budget is | 0:31:48 | 0:31:50 | |
being negotiated, every time the Liberal Democrats come forward and | 0:31:50 | 0:31:55 | |
say they want this on an area like public policy, on an area like the | 0:31:55 | 0:31:58 | |
NHS, the Tories are thinking we will keep that, and when we have a | 0:31:59 | 0:32:04 | |
debate about mansion taxes and increase in tax thresholds. What | 0:32:04 | 0:32:08 | |
about their backbenchers? We have a clip from one, Nick de Bois, they | 0:32:08 | 0:32:11 | |
are fed up that the Liberal Democrats are negotiating in public | 0:32:11 | 0:32:17 | |
and the Tories are more discreet. I'm surprised by the intervention. | 0:32:17 | 0:32:25 | |
I think it is more about politics than substance. The key thing is, | 0:32:25 | 0:32:31 | |
if that what it takes to get the bill on the statute bill, then so | 0:32:31 | 0:32:36 | |
be it. The idea it could be about to go on to the statute book, they | 0:32:36 | 0:32:40 | |
can't believe they are about to possibly get this bill all the way | 0:32:40 | 0:32:46 | |
through to being policy. It has been a headache for the Government. | 0:32:46 | 0:32:49 | |
Russia's state-controlled television has said the Government | 0:32:49 | 0:32:53 | |
has foiled a plan to assassinate the Prime Minister, Vladimir Putin. | 0:32:53 | 0:32:58 | |
Channel One TV, says the plot, previously unreported, has come | 0:32:58 | 0:33:03 | |
from terrorists in the Ukraine, who plan to kill Vladimir Putin after | 0:33:03 | 0:33:08 | |
the next election. The timing, before Russians go to the polls, | 0:33:08 | 0:33:13 | |
has caused some to question the official version of the news. | 0:33:13 | 0:33:17 | |
We will be speaking to our panel in a moment. First we report from | 0:33:17 | 0:33:22 | |
Moscow. The Russian TV report showed | 0:33:22 | 0:33:26 | |
Ukrainian forces storming a building in Odessa three weeks ago. | 0:33:26 | 0:33:35 | |
Inside was a man said to be on an international wanted list. Adam | 0:33:36 | 0:33:39 | |
Osmayev. Russian TV said he previously lived in this house, | 0:33:39 | 0:33:46 | |
rocked by an explosion, in which an accomplice died. He told | 0:33:46 | 0:33:49 | |
interrogators they were going to Moscow to try to assassinate | 0:33:49 | 0:33:53 | |
Vladimir Putin. He said they would use mines, but he wasn't going to | 0:33:53 | 0:33:58 | |
do it himself, the guy who died was. The deadline was after the | 0:33:58 | 0:34:03 | |
presidential election. Another man, arrested with him, | 0:34:03 | 0:34:08 | |
said they were told to go to Odessa, to learn to make bombs. Then in | 0:34:08 | 0:34:12 | |
Moscow, they would engineer diversions at economic facilities. | 0:34:12 | 0:34:16 | |
Finally, would come the attack on Putin. | 0:34:16 | 0:34:21 | |
This laptop, shown to the reporter, by an investigator, from Russia's | 0:34:21 | 0:34:24 | |
FSB security agency, supposedly shows details of the plot. | 0:34:24 | 0:34:30 | |
Including, it was said, a video of Mr Putin's motorcade. | 0:34:30 | 0:34:36 | |
But on the streets of Moscow itself, where Mr Putin is certain to be | 0:34:36 | 0:34:40 | |
elected President next month, the details of the plot weren't causing | 0:34:40 | 0:34:46 | |
much alarm today. Most people were cynical about its very existence. | 0:34:46 | 0:34:51 | |
TRANSLATION: It's not serious, it is not serious at all. It can't be | 0:34:51 | 0:34:57 | |
true. Why? TRANSLATION: Because it just can't be. | 0:34:57 | 0:35:02 | |
Tran tran -- TRANSLATION: We're in an election campaign, and this | 0:35:02 | 0:35:10 | |
story is just meant to get people interested. Many people condemn | 0:35:10 | 0:35:15 | |
Putin, his policies, so I think he thought this story up himself. | 0:35:15 | 0:35:21 | |
REPORTER: He thought it up himself? TRANSLATION: Yes, I think so, he | 0:35:21 | 0:35:28 | |
did it all himself. TRANSLATION: I think it is a PR | 0:35:28 | 0:35:32 | |
campaign. TRANSLATION: What is the aim? TRANSLATION: To raise Putin's | 0:35:32 | 0:35:42 | |
rating, I suppose. The assassination story comes a day | 0:35:42 | 0:35:46 | |
after thousands of anti-Putin protestors formed a living ring | 0:35:46 | 0:35:50 | |
around the centre of Moscow, the latest demonstration in their | 0:35:50 | 0:35:54 | |
campaign for fairer elections. They say the Kremlin rigged the voting | 0:35:54 | 0:35:57 | |
for a new parliament three months ago, they are convinced the same | 0:35:57 | 0:35:59 | |
thing will happen again in the presidential poll this coming | 0:35:59 | 0:36:05 | |
Sunday. In reply, Mr Putin has suggested | 0:36:05 | 0:36:10 | |
his critics are serving an outside agenda, and that Russia needs to be | 0:36:10 | 0:36:16 | |
defended. TRANSLATION: We won't allow anyone to impose their will | 0:36:16 | 0:36:20 | |
on us, because we have our own will, that's always helped us to win. We | 0:36:20 | 0:36:26 | |
are a nation of victors, it is in our genes, it gets passed on from | 0:36:26 | 0:36:31 | |
generation to generation, and we will win this time. I want to ask | 0:36:32 | 0:36:39 | |
you, Welwyn. Today's story, about an assassination plot against Mr | 0:36:39 | 0:36:46 | |
Putin, is confusing in many details, Ukrainian security officials | 0:36:46 | 0:36:50 | |
initially refused to confirm they suspected any such conspiracy S | 0:36:50 | 0:37:00 | |
0:37:00 | 0:37:02 | ||
although they later said it was true. Many here feel the case will | 0:37:02 | 0:37:07 | |
be used to crackdown on opponents, who the Prime Minister likes to | 0:37:07 | 0:37:11 | |
portray as a dangerous fifth column. Russians remember that under both | 0:37:11 | 0:37:17 | |
Lenin and Stalin, assassination plots, real or contrived, triggered | 0:37:17 | 0:37:22 | |
waves of brutal repression. Even this business tycoon, who normally | 0:37:22 | 0:37:26 | |
avoids criticising Putin is worried. TRANSLATION: Who says history | 0:37:26 | 0:37:31 | |
doesn't repeat itself, it might be repeating itself. | 0:37:31 | 0:37:38 | |
All of the famous processes against the troits skiists, and right and | 0:37:38 | 0:37:44 | |
left centre. You are paralleling with 1930s? All built on conspiring | 0:37:44 | 0:37:48 | |
against Stalin or the revolution. Look at this, this morning's news | 0:37:49 | 0:37:52 | |
from Odessa, that they have actually arrested some people | 0:37:52 | 0:37:59 | |
trying to organise an attempt on Putin's life. There is already some | 0:37:59 | 0:38:05 | |
syllables about some London, exiles involvement, look at the | 0:38:06 | 0:38:10 | |
manifestations, Putin was talking to 130,000 people, in the January, | 0:38:10 | 0:38:15 | |
it was 19th of January 1937, 200,000 people were brought to | 0:38:15 | 0:38:20 | |
Moscow, they marched through the streets, and they spoke to crush | 0:38:20 | 0:38:25 | |
chof, in support of Stalin killing all of the opposition. These | 0:38:25 | 0:38:32 | |
similarities are sometimes rather unnerving. No wonder knows what | 0:38:32 | 0:38:35 | |
will happen after Putin declares his victory, of course there will | 0:38:35 | 0:38:43 | |
be no return to the 1930s, but more plots, that's pretty certain. | 0:38:43 | 0:38:47 | |
Sergei Markov is what is known as an election representative for | 0:38:47 | 0:38:53 | |
Prime Minister Putin, he joins us from Washington, and Boris | 0:38:53 | 0:39:00 | |
Berezovsky, an oligarch, living in London, a known opposer to | 0:39:00 | 0:39:05 | |
President Putin. You heard what was said there, it is all part of an | 0:39:05 | 0:39:10 | |
election campaign, probably thought up by Putin himself? I feel strange | 0:39:10 | 0:39:17 | |
myself, frankly speaking, I respect the BBC, now this BBC looks like | 0:39:17 | 0:39:27 | |
anti-Putin propaganda special tape, maybe I don't know. A -- you had | 0:39:27 | 0:39:33 | |
three recordings, all anti-Putin, you mentioned about people | 0:39:33 | 0:39:40 | |
criticising Putin, I didn't see the name, I suppose it Alexander | 0:39:40 | 0:39:47 | |
Lebedev by voice, he's sponsoring very strong anti-Putin media in | 0:39:47 | 0:39:52 | |
Washington. Why did you tell him not to criticise others, it is not | 0:39:52 | 0:39:58 | |
true. We are happy for you to defend this. We all know it was | 0:39:58 | 0:40:03 | |
Vladimir Putin to crush, radical Islamists terrorist Government in | 0:40:03 | 0:40:13 | |
0:40:13 | 0:40:13 | ||
Chechnya, and also crushed tycoons like Boris Berezovsky, and | 0:40:13 | 0:40:16 | |
others...(inaudible) all them hate him. The reason we are talking | 0:40:16 | 0:40:20 | |
about this tonight, is we have only heard about this plot today, and | 0:40:20 | 0:40:24 | |
Russia is weeks away from an election, that is why many think | 0:40:24 | 0:40:29 | |
the timing is rather suspicious? Please don't stop me, why are you | 0:40:29 | 0:40:35 | |
interrupting me, I'm sorry, you are like Fox News, please, everybody | 0:40:35 | 0:40:45 | |
knows that Vladimir Putin has a lot of enemies, tycoons, and also this | 0:40:45 | 0:40:51 | |
radical Islamists also, and others. Of course they try to organise some | 0:40:51 | 0:40:58 | |
kind of killing of him a few times, just Russian Government inform | 0:40:58 | 0:41:02 | |
public opinion. Don't interrupt me, why you interrupt me.... I think we | 0:41:02 | 0:41:05 | |
have to go to the studio guest, there is no reason why this | 0:41:05 | 0:41:09 | |
wouldn't be a real plot against a man in power who clearly has | 0:41:09 | 0:41:14 | |
enemies? I think definitely, there should be conspiracy -- | 0:41:14 | 0:41:20 | |
transparency that it was a real plot, and that it was not. My | 0:41:20 | 0:41:23 | |
understanding is it is really strange that every time, before | 0:41:24 | 0:41:31 | |
elections it has happened. In 2000, it happened, in 2004, it happened | 0:41:31 | 0:41:37 | |
in 208, it is almost the same story. In 2000 we have houses explosion, | 0:41:37 | 0:41:44 | |
Putin election campaign. And then the second Chechen war, in 2004 we | 0:41:44 | 0:41:49 | |
have, again, an attempt of assassination. To be fair the | 0:41:50 | 0:41:54 | |
Ukrainians have now admitted there was this plot, we know the plot | 0:41:54 | 0:41:59 | |
exists? I'm not sure, I don't believe in this story 100%. I can | 0:41:59 | 0:42:04 | |
refuse this story. But, again, for me it looks like a made up story, | 0:42:04 | 0:42:09 | |
because it is all the time the same, but today was very funny. You have | 0:42:09 | 0:42:14 | |
no evidence, have you? It is, you asked my opinion, and I just give | 0:42:14 | 0:42:20 | |
you answer. Let me go back to Sergei Markov, you mentioned | 0:42:20 | 0:42:24 | |
Lebedev, he thinks this will be used as an excuse to crack down on | 0:42:24 | 0:42:28 | |
opposition groups, make everyone who opposes Putin sound like a | 0:42:28 | 0:42:37 | |
terrorist? I mentioned it is not neutral journalism if you called | 0:42:37 | 0:42:41 | |
Lebedev, who didn't criticise Vladimir Putin, he criticising | 0:42:42 | 0:42:49 | |
Putin many times. He is financially supported by a very anti-Putin | 0:42:49 | 0:42:54 | |
media in Russia. I don't think this will be used for cracking down on | 0:42:54 | 0:42:58 | |
the position. Vladimir Putin has polarity, something about 60%, | 0:42:58 | 0:43:06 | |
according to all polls. Why a leader with 60% popularity needs to | 0:43:06 | 0:43:10 | |
support his position. That is a good point, I'm putting your point | 0:43:10 | 0:43:14 | |
to Boris Berezovsky, if Putin is doing so well in the polls why does | 0:43:14 | 0:43:23 | |
he have to pull a stunt? appreciate that he's supporting Mr | 0:43:23 | 0:43:29 | |
Putin in the campaign, he supported in 2004 and he lost completely the | 0:43:29 | 0:43:34 | |
other person, and I appreciate that he's supporting Putin in his | 0:43:34 | 0:43:39 | |
campaign. Why would you pull a stunt with these polls? I don't | 0:43:39 | 0:43:45 | |
believe the polls he's representing. I supported victor in election and | 0:43:45 | 0:43:52 | |
he won the election and then the revolution happened, and we didn't | 0:43:52 | 0:43:56 | |
prepare for that. I was talking that it will be revolution, I | 0:43:56 | 0:44:00 | |
predicted it would be revolution, but they didn't listen to us. They | 0:44:00 | 0:44:04 | |
believed that he won the election. In the election people will have | 0:44:04 | 0:44:10 | |
badges for the revolution, that will happen. Many people in Moscow | 0:44:10 | 0:44:14 | |
seem to question whether this plot was real or not, as you heard from | 0:44:14 | 0:44:17 | |
Boris Berezovsky, he says there is a pattern, this kind of thing | 0:44:17 | 0:44:22 | |
emerges ahead of every single election? Of course not every | 0:44:22 | 0:44:27 | |
single election. We remember that when Vladimir Putin had been | 0:44:27 | 0:44:32 | |
elected in the year 200, it was the -- 2000, it was the real war in | 0:44:32 | 0:44:37 | |
Chechnya, we remember, it was army, it was a big territory controlled | 0:44:37 | 0:44:43 | |
by terrorists. They directly repeated many times that they will | 0:44:43 | 0:44:47 | |
attack Russian civilians in Russian cities, in the heart of Russia. | 0:44:47 | 0:44:54 | |
They made it. It is everything clear only this. Then in the next | 0:44:54 | 0:45:02 | |
elections, 2008, and 2004, nothing happened. Boris Berezovsky, briefly, | 0:45:02 | 0:45:04 | |
do you think that these demonstrations that we have seen in | 0:45:04 | 0:45:08 | |
the past few days will result in anything, or do you think that | 0:45:08 | 0:45:14 | |
Putin's grip on power is pretty solid? I'm sure Putin could falsify | 0:45:14 | 0:45:19 | |
the election with the help of Mr Markov and people like him. But | 0:45:19 | 0:45:29 | |
0:45:29 | 0:45:31 | ||
Putin will be never in Russia. Briefly? All psychological points | 0:45:31 | 0:45:35 | |
are repeated and repeated, but Putin's popularity allows him to | 0:45:35 | 0:45:40 | |
win with something like 58%. What reason to make a falsification | 0:45:40 | 0:45:43 | |
before the election, if the polls show you. It is very strange, you | 0:45:43 | 0:45:46 | |
know. Thank you very much indeed. | 0:45:46 | 0:45:50 | |
That's all from Newsnight tonight. The Artist was last night only the | 0:45:50 | 0:45:55 |