04/04/2012 Newsnight

Tonight, who is fit to run the biggest city in Britain? Whoever it

is will enjoy the biggest personal mandate of any politician in Europe,

apart from the President of France. In tonight's live debate, Boris

Johnson, the sitting mayor, and notorious cyclist, faces off

against Ken Livingstone, the man who had the job before him, and now

wants it back. Brian Paddick, the Lib Dem contender, and one-time

senior policeman. And the Green candidate, and former deputy mayor,

Jenny Jones. Over the next 45 minutes, they will tell us why they

are worthy of the job. There must be a temptation, if you

live in Bangor or Bonar Bridge, or Brighton, to think that whoever

occupies the squished glass sphere of City Hall, on the south shore of

the Thames, is an irrelevance. Lucky you, many a Londoner might

say. But consider these facts, London has a bigger population than

many member states of the European Union. It is the seat of the

national parliament, the site of this summer's Olympic Games, home

to more rich people than anyone else in the country, yet the

setting for some truly awful social problems. 5.4 million people can

vote for the London mayor, 34,000 people in rural Oxfordshire voted

for David Cameron. The London mareoral election -- mayoral

elections matter, and they will control over policing, and house

anything Britain. There are many candidates, but the four we have

invited to debate are here. We will hear from the other candidates

later in the programme. Now a few minutes ago, the four

candidates here tonight had to decide the order in which they will

make their opening 90-second statements.

Each had to select a very tasteful, numbered Olympic Games mascot,

under the guidance of Jackie Murphy, the pearlly Queen of Hackney. By a

process almost as Intelable as the sub lementry voting arrangement,

the first speaker is Jenny Jones. She represents the Green Party, she

shot to political attention, when she was selected to the inaugural

London Assembly, then rows to be Deputy Mayor of London, one of the

most senior Greens in the country. If things don't work, she can

return to her one-time occupation of archaeologist.

The green vision for London is of a more affordable, equal, and happy

city. I want this election to be about the issues that Londoners

really care about, and also worry about, on a day-to-day basis. I

want to make housing more affordable. I want to get more of

London's families out of poverty, and take real action on the growing

pay gap. I want to make sure that every young Londoner has a job, or

an apprenticeship. I want to create a transport strategy that focuses

on affordable fares, reducing congestion, tackling air pollution,

investing in infrastructure, and making the streets safer for all

road users, particularly pedestrains and cyclists. I want

City Hall to provide real support for the capital's small businesses,

and rebuild trust between the police and communities. Getting

officers from out behind their desks and stopping cuts to

community police I know how City Hall works.

I have held both mayors to account on behalf of London. I'm standing

for mayor because I believe London needs fresh and radical ideas, and

a new kind of politics. By voting for me as mayor, and just as

importantly, voting Green for the assembly elections, together we can

make the difference. Jenny Jones, thank you. Well now,

Brian Paddick spent 30 years at the Metropolitan Police, ending his

career as Deputy Assistant Commissioner. He's a repeat

offender in the mayoral elections, having tried unsucksfully four

years ago. He was voted top of the list -- unsuccessfully four years

ago. He's top of the list the Liberal Democrats would like to see

in the House of Lords. In August last year, we saw the worst riots

in London we have seen for over a century. Street crime, burglary,

knife crime, is all increasing at an alarming rate. The mayor is now

the police and crime commissioner for London. The mayor alone decides

what the priorities are for the police, what the budget is for the

police, the mayor alone holds the police to account. Who would you

rather be in charge of policing in London? Someone with no experience

at all, or somebody like me, who has 30 years of experience of

policing the streets, starting off as a constable on the beat, and

ending up, as Jeremy has said, as one of the most senior officers at

New Scotland Yard. Yes I'm passionate about London's buses and

trains, he use them every day. And yes, I'm passionate about making

sure every Londoner has a decent place to live that they can

genuinely afford. But the number one issue, for Londoners, is crime

and policing. I am the only candidate who knows how to reform

the Metropolitan Police, to get Londoners and the police standing

together against the criminal, and to make London safer, permanently

safer. Brian Paddick thank you.

Now, Ken Livingstone, Red Ken, as he once was, has already had the

mayor's job for two terms and been MP for Brent. He's the man behind

the Congestion Charge, designed to deter people from driving in

central London, he's almost certainly world famous for his

passionate devoting to gardening and the rearing of newts! Thank you

Jeremy. These are the work economic times for 80 years, the first duty

of the mayor is to see what they can do to make life that bit more

tolerable and affordable for Londoners. The single most

important way in which you can do something, is to cut the fares. We

have the highest fares in the world. They are twice what they are in

Paris or Berlin. In a sense, fares in this country become a Stealth

tax, and at the moment, the surplus on the fares accounting in

Transport for London is �338 million. I intend to put �269

million back into Londoners' pocket, where they can spend it on local

goods and services helping the local economy. That means the

difference between Boris Johnson and myself if you live in zone 1 or

2, you will be �1,000 better off if you live in zone 6. I'm also

reinstating the Education Maintenance Allowance, it went to

the poorest families struggling to do the best of themselves. Getting

back the �30 a week, working with the colleges, they have funds they

can use for that, and the universities, that is crucial. The

other thing we have here in this city is horrendously high levels of

electricity prices, we will establish an energy Co-op, so

people can buy their energy via an offshoot of Transport for London,

because Transport for London, running the tube, buys it at half

the price domestic consumers do. Everybody in London can save �120 a

year, year after year, cutting their energy bill.

Boris Johnson, is a reformed journalist, and one-time MP for

Henley-on-Thames. He has been Mayor of London since 2008, his most

lasting memorial, he didn't come up with the idea in the first place,

are the thousands of hire bicycles all over the city. The despair of

hairdressers, he outraged many that declaring that Ping-Pong, or wiff-

waff, was invented in Britain. election is about trust, and who

has the best plans to lead London out of recession. Get real value

from the Olympics, and get Londoners into jobs. It is because

times are so tough that we have to be honest with people about where

the money is coming from, and where it is going to be spent. And it is

partly because we have chopped some of the more Baroque, old fashioned,

loony left extravagance, that we have been able to put the money

where it counts. Cutting council tax, making London ever safer, in

spite of what Brian says, with another 1,000 police all together,

than there were when I was elected, now another 2,000 in the safer

neighbourhood teams. Building record numbers of new homes,

affordable homes for Londoners. Modernising our transport systems,

so we not only cut delays, but we can now use new technology to take

out cost, and hold fares down, in an affordable and sustainable way.

These investments will not only create 200,000 jobs, they will

build the platform for future growth and prosperity for all. It

is because we have been running London responsibly, that I can get

the best deal from Government. And above all, I don't want to see

London lurch back to the arrogance, the waste and broken promises of

the past. I want a mandate to take London forward, I hope you will

vote for me, Boris Johnson, on May 3rd.

Let's discuss all these subjects, if we have time. We have certainly

got yawning seconds, minutes, in front of us. Boris Johnson, the

first thing you mentioned there, is it was the economy, and I imagine

you are thrilled that your friend George Osborne took your advice and

cut the top rate of tax. But I just wonder, why, in a city so radically

polarised between the very rich and the rather poor, you actually

wanted to do a favour for the rich? Well, you've got to be tax

competitive across all London's rival economies. But, I think one

of the most attractive things about the budget, from my point of view,

is 97,000 people were lifted out of tax all together, under that budget.

And as mayor, obviously I don't set, I'm not in charge of the Exchequer,

I can't set the national budget. What I can do is bear down on the

cost of living, with the taxes I have at my disposal. You wanted to

cut the 50p rate didn't you? council tax under Livingstonely

went up by �964 for a band, you can shake your head in dismay, it is

true, �9 64 pound force a band D house, that money was wasted on all

kinds of antics. For those tempted to vote for you, you were a

lobbyist for cutting the 50p rate of tax, correct? Stick up for

London, and the London economy. And I certainly think that you need to

be tax competitive. But I have to tell you. Will you answer the

question, you were in favour of it, weren't you? Of course I was.

you. I have to tell you I'm pleased with what we have been able to do

to cut tax for the poor in this society.

Ken Livingstone? He's absolutely right, he campaigned relentlessly

to cut the top rate of tax for the richest 1%. Half a million

pensioners in this city will pay, on average, �83 more to fill that

gap. The Government can't borrow any more, if you cut tax for one

group, it goes to another. All you have done is shift the balance of

the burden to poorer people. Let's be clear where you are coming from,

hang on a second. Where you are coming from, you have stated

publicly that the international financial system kills more people

in a year than the whole of World War II? You still believe that?

That was about 20 years ago. It was about 12 years ago? I didn't know

you hadn't grown up then? When you actually look at the impact that

the financial system has on the poorest of society, when you get,

in places like Argentina or parts of Africa, the infant mortality

rate is absolutely shocking. They are not my figures, they are

UNESCO's figures. Brian Paddick, you are one of the parties in the

coalition Government that did this favour in the very rich for cutting

the 50p rate tax, are you proud of it? The group of measures this

coalition Government has brought in, means the richest will be paying

five-times more tax than is brought in by the 50p tax rate. To be

honest with you, Jeremy, I don't really care whether it is a mansion

tax, a tycoon tax, or a 50p rate of tax, provided those people with the

broadest shoulders, provided those with the broadest shoulders bear

the biggest burden, I don't really mind. The other thing we have to

make sure is, is that we don't run down the financial services sector

in London. It is a major contributor to the wealth of London.

We do need to rebalance the economy by building up industry,

manufacturing, but, all this banker-bashing, doesn't really do

any good. What we have to make sure is the richest pay most tax. That's

what this coalition Government is trying to do.

Is it my turn to say. Jenny Jones, it is your turn, we know you are

against cutting the 50p rate of tax, we know you are in favour of

raising the Congestion Charge. Which would effect absolutely

everybody, richest and poorest. Anyone who drives a vehicle.

point is about the sort of economics that Boris is talking

about, it is dinosaur economics, there is no creative thinking.

Cutting the 50p tax was a ridiculous way of pandering to the

rich. There is two ways of making London a healthier city in terms of

the economy, that is, first of all, make sure there is more employed

people, who can lift themselves out of poverty and benefits, and start

paying back taxes. The second way, of course, is to make sure we give

small and medium-sized businesses a real boost. That I totally agree

with that. Who has been doing it? One thing the mayor can do to help

pensioners, the point Ken was making, and the valuable thing,

which is the 24-hour Freedom Pass, worth many, many hundreds of pounds.

What is that? A 24-hour Freedom Pass is something no-one outside

London, alas gets. Explain what it is? It gives free travel on the

buses and tubes if you are over 60. I tell you this, every man or woman

over 60, in this city, will get free travel, again, we will take

off the age escalator that the Labour Government supported by you

put us on, and we will restore the Freedom Pass for everybody over 60.

Four years ago you promised to make it 24-7, because I promised to do

that. I said we would do it on the trail, south Londoners have been

left behind. You didn't do it. your watch, in the first few years,

your administration met with the Tory majority of borough councils

and reduced the age of the Freedom Pass to 66. We have 60 and 61-year-

old people turning up to get their Freedom Pass and being turned away.

We mustn't wrong wrangle and be unseemly. Would you like to

apologise for calling him a liar yesterday, when you are paeing so

civilised? I would, if he explained, after I had gone to a great deal of

trouble, to point out after the last Hustings, which was the

business Hustings, to point out to him that he, Ken Livingstone, was

sadly mistake in his analysis of my tax arrangements, and that I had

nothing like the service company that he has, to funnel payments

through. I made that point politely in a gentleman low way, I said,

listen, you are completely wrong, don't say it again. I didn't know

whether to prevent a breach of the peace or arrest you for threatening

behaviour in that lift yesterday. Brian I don't want to accuse you of

exaggerating. There is a here, which you haven't apologised for

calling him a lie, do you want to? No. -- A liar, do you want to?

It is true. I have been called worse than that. The important

political point here is one of hypocrisy, you are the person, Ken

Livingstone, who argued that your precise words were, we should do

awith all the scams, everyone should pay -- away with the scams,

everyone should pay the same rate of income tax? Put me in tomorrow

and I will do that. You chose in your personal life not to do that?

On every penny I have earned I pay personal tax. I don't pay income

tax on the money I used to employ other people, and no other business

in London does, if you did, people would be unemployed. I employed

four people over the last four years, I don't pay income tax on

that, no business does. Every penny I took out of the company or my

wife has taken out, we paid tax on. Boris Johnson has benefited for

another �12,500, by getting the top rate of tax cut, because the

�250,000 he earns on his second salary, I'm sorry. Like everybody

who earns above the level with the higher rate tax, he benefits, of

course he does. It is not a scheme that he devised to evade tax, or

avoid tax, as you did. One of the few things Cameron has got right,

he has banned members of the Government from holding second jobs.

Boris Johnson earns �140,000 as mayor, and gets another �250,000

from the Telegraph. I guarantee you the only income I have as mayor

will be from the job for mayor. Nobody will offer you a newspaper

column, what a surprise? He did write a column when he was mayor,

he wrote one for the Independent, I'm probably the only human being

who have read every single one of the former mayor's columns, I don't

know what he was paid. It was very obvious reading those columns, why

he didn't continue. I gave it up because I realised you couldn't do

the job of writing a column and being mayor. Ken, we have discussed

this before, I told you there were two options, you put yourself

forward as a sole trader, or register yourself as a business.

You have registered yourself as a business, and as a result of that

avoided paying tax. Where as Boris Johnson and I have not. Brian you

don't employ three other people, I did. If you employed three other

people, your accountant would have said be a company. If you had

employed three other people, it would have brought unemployment

down, that is a good thing. Unof those is your wife? She worked very

-- One of those is your wife? worked very hard, if you were stuck

in an at particular with me for three years writing my

autobiography, she deserves it. It's doing very well. You are

standing there being high-minded? Why don't we end it with everyone

publishing what they earn and pay in tax. Why not bring it out into

the hope, why not do that. There is no more arguments. We can talk

about some of the issues we all have in our manifestos. You will do

that? I have published my tax affairs for the last two years, and

let the public decide who is avoiding tax and who isn't. I have

to be happy to say I pay colossal numbers in income tax. I would love

to see the full details of the former mayor's accounts. You will

publish your's as well? Whatever is necessary to publish, I will

publish. Was that a yes or a no. I'm publish to -- to publish

details of everything I have earned in the last four years, will you do

that? Op course I will. - of course I will.

Can we go on now to talk about something else. Let's talk about

the riots. Ken Livingstone, rather remarkable

these events, the most horrifying things that have happened in London

for a good few years. You came in this programme, and you said that

they were a revolt against the cuts. Do you believe that? I think, if

you look at the studies that have been done now, the more detailed

academic studies. Yes, there is a strong element of criminality,

there is people who used their blackberries to go robbing, but all

the academic studies done, with the passage of time, have said there

was a sense of backlash, a sense of alienation, people saying there is

one law for them and one law for us. That is not the cuts, they don't

mention the cuts most of the reports? Two years into Mrs

Thatcher's Government, increasing unemployment and cuts, we had riots

that spread from Brixton throughout the rest of the country. You can

condemn it, absolutely, let's try to understand it, I don't want it

happening again. If I had been the mayor, I would have come back, not

waited four days, I would have been back, and been on the first plane

you are not seriously saying it wouldn't have happened if you were

mayor? It might not have, Mark Dugg an's parents march today the Police

Station, and there was no-one there, and nobody was there to meet them,

and that sparked anger. I want to know why Boris didn't have someone

there to meet them. I understand a former mayor playing politics, in

an ideal world I wouldn't have been out of the country when those riots

happened. As it was I came back as fast as humanely possible. I was

about 300 miles from the nearest airport, in a camper van, on the

top of a mountain in the west coast of canned dark I came back as fast

as possible, we got on with the job of sorting it out. Working with the

police to bring the whole thing under control. Of course, to get on

with getting the funds and the regeneration money that was

necessary to turn Croydon, Tottenham, and other places in

London back. We have massive regeneration funds now. I saw you

on the television and when you were asked if you were coming back, you

said no you were not. We are going to drive forward investment in

Croydon and Tottenham and other parts of London, so actually they

will be more prosperous and have more jobs there. Can I say, if I

was mayor, I would have been outside Scotland Yard, on the

Sunday morning, after the riots, on the Saturday, next to the

commissioner, surrounded by with community leaders, and the

commissioner would say, with my authority, that he would clamp down

hard the following day, and I and the community leaders would say,

this is damaging the reputation of London, it is damaging the

reputation of Tottenham. I have been to Tottenham recently, the

traders there say trade is still down 50% because of the reputation

Tottenham now has. That would have had an effect on people. How would

you have behaved, Jenny Jones? think I would have gone there and

tried to deal with the situation. But moving on, depravation. Do you

think the police mishandled it? I think they did the best they

could at the time, they didn't have enough officers or equipment. The

fact is, of course it could have been done better, but at the time,

hindsight is a very wonderful thing. Could I just say that deaf pri

vaigs clearly paid deprivation clearly paid a part. And now the

police have to get the trust of communities not only in Croydon,

other places, they have to work hard. In 2001 I was the police

commander in Brixton, the police shot an unarmed man, there was a

peaceful demonstration two days later that turned into a riot, it

wasn't hindsight, it was not learning from history. The police

should have had sufficient resources on the ground Tottenham

on Saturday night, to nip it in the bud. If the pictures beamed around

the country was of police officers arresting looters, rather than

standing by and letting them walk past, it wouldn't have spread

anywhere else. Brian is completely right there. What completely went

wrong on the first night, all police officers who were involved

in it would accept this, what was a really a criminal event, was

interpreted as a public order event. You could see it from the rockies,

could you? In retrospect they should have been more robust on

that evening. The problem the next day was the mayor wasn't there.

Most people would say it was a great tribute to policing in London,

and to the skill of the Met, that the whole thing was brought under

control with very, very little loss of life, and injury. There were

very brave officers who went out there, not enough of them, they put

their lives on the line for us, they were let down by their senior

officers, because there weren't enough officers there, with the

right equipment, to deal with that situation on the night. Part of the

problem here, although you said you wanted to get back, I saw you being

interviewed on the second day of those riots, you said you weren't

coming back. It was only when you came under pressure. You can't have

seen me, I don't wish to accuse you of any kind of inaccuracy, you

can't have seen me, I was nowhere near a camera. I remember what you

said, that your coming back would be a reward for the rioters, I

don't think they gave a dam. think your analysis is wrong.

have made that point. The important question is, how do you stop them

happening again, because in all the analysis, you have already told us

how you will stop it. They have to have someone on their side, a mayor

actively looking after things, not just the richest 1%. On your side

of the riots. There is a huge discrepancy between the poor and

rich in this city. It has got wider under you, Boris, you have

increased the fares. It got massively wider under the Labour

Government, who caused a huge. are both right, it got wider under

Labour and more under the Tories. It got massively wider under your

party and your mayoral time. have made it worse, you haven't

helped. We have had to deal with the financial consequences of the

mess that Labour left behind. I have had to deal with a black hole

in transport, which has been very, very hard, and has meant some very,

very serious cuts and retrenchments. Your first budget you presented to

the assembly, on the paragraph page 70, admitting you inherited

reserves of �1.5 billion, from my administration, it is in your own

budget. It sounds accurate, we can all look it up, there must be

people at home with that budget who can look it up. I left you �1.5

billion. She's the former Deputy Mayor of Ken Livingstone, when she

interjects that is where she's coming from. You know perfectly

well, Ken, that every pound we have in our budgets is dedicated,

allocated for investment, for bus routes, for improving the tube, you

know perfectly well, your policies, I'm afraid, are extremely misguided

and fraudulent. Brian Paddick has a serious point he wants to make,

what is it? The research done by the Guardian and the LSE showed

resentment towards the police was a major factor in fuelling the riots.

Stop and search, you are four more times likely to be stopped and

searched in London if you are black rather than white. There was a

Commerce poll that showed high percentages of people didn't

believe the police were on their side. If you have been robbed or

burgled and you don't believe the police is on your side, who will

you turn to. Unless we change the culture of the Metropolitan Police,

get Londoners standing next to the police, against the criminal, we

will have the potential for further riots in the future. I'm the only

candidate who knows which levers to pull in the Met to get that changed.

This is about trying to create some how a more harmonious city, those

riots were the expression of a city that were not harmonious. You are

not the right man to do that, when so much of the Jewish community

wouldn't dream of voting for you? That is not true at all. I'm the

mayor that actually, in every year I was mayor, anti-semetic attacks

decreased. Even during the war in the Lebanon, in 2006, when anti-

semetic attacks soared in the rest of Britain and across Europe, they

didn't increase in this city. People see there is a mayor who is

actually fair. You are the man who invite the Yusef Al Karadawi to

come to Britain, a man who says to kill Israeli women, you depended

his coming here? All I knew is the Sun had praised him as the true

voice of Islam, because after 9/11 he appealed to Muslims to donate

blood to the victims. Someone else on Newsnight interviewed him, he

made absolutely clear, no Muslim should attack a homosexual, no

Muslim should strike his wife, Muslims should not attack and carry

out terrorists acts here. You are right he is on the side of the

Palestinians in the war. He did say it to Newsnight, he said Israeli

women are not like women in our society, they are militariseed, I

consider this as an indication of the justice of Allah the almighty?

Anyone saying to people do not attack cities in the west, that is

wrong, no good Muslim is doing that, I'm up for dialogue with him.

about the comment about many Jews not voting for you, because they

were too rich? That is completely untrue. They made that up? Yes.

you are like a bad 1970s comedian, you play to the audience, whoever

you think has the most votes, and that is why you talked about the

Conservative Party being riddled with it when you were talking about

homosexuality. You just don't care. Brian, don't believe half a

sentence taken out of context. I said isn't it wonderful the Tory

Party is riddled with it, like everybody else. Is that the right

words, riddled with it, I found it offensive, as a gay man. As a gay

man you didn't come out and support me when I took that stance 30 years

ago, neither did any gay person in the Tory Party, they were all

silent, I was just reminding them, I'm delighted you can now have

openly gay Tories. That was then and this is now, you are creating

division by saying that Islam should be a beacon for London.

haven't said that. Excuse me, you are believing what is published by

Andrews grew Gilligan in the Telegraph, who is broadly an add

jubgt of Boris's campaign. I have never said that, every has heard me

say, London is a beacon for tolerance within religions, I'm an

aitist, I like a drink, I won't advocate this becoming a Muslim

city. Boris Johnson, you have mentioned the fact that there are

more policemen on the streets of London than there were when you

took office, but there are fewer policemen than there were two years

ago? The key relevant comparisons, there are more police on the street.

There are fewer police now than there were two years ago? Let me

tell you this, London, thanks to the efforts of this mayorality.

it true or not? London is an island of high police numbers compared to

the rest of the country. Is it true? It is certainly true that

over the four years that numbers have gone up and down, they are now

1,000 higher than they were when I was elected. That is in sharp

contrast to everywhere else in the country, because of the budgets we

have been able to get from Government, and the extra numbers

we are able to put out there, we are able to continue. You accept

they are lower than a number of years ago. We are able to continue

to drive down crime with the extra resources. The reason police

budgets have been under pressure, across this country is because of

the financial shambles left by the last Labour Government, which you

supported. Can we get back to police numbers. I would like to

talk about police numbers. There was never a penny of money to cover

everything, that is why I left. left a complete financial shambles.

When I became mayor, there were 25,500, I left you a budget for

32,000, over the last two years, no, Boris, let somebody else thought.

This is nonsense. This isn't the bulling done club, we are supposed

to let other people talk. We have We have the Olympics comes, we are

a prime terrorist target, you are 5,000 police officers light. Hang

on a second. May I interrupt. You cannot deny that crime has fallen

under Boris Johnson? Absolutely, crime under those four years has

fallen 4.5%, in my last year it was 6%. The agreed figure appears to be

6%. Can you also confirm, as you said, that it was a lot easier to

be mayor in your time, because at that time Government was pouring

money at you? Yes, and we did a lot of things. But the idea you cut

police, while burglaries are going up, while knife crime sup. 2,000

extra knife offences. How do you know that when you left office?

was building up, there were 25,000 when I came in, 23 2,000 when I

left. The commissioner announced a couple of months ago, that he was

taking another 1,000 officers off the street, and putting them into

yet another specialist squad. We are forgetting about the basics of

policing. Policing by consent in this country means that you have to

have visible police, in uniform, on the streets to reassure the public.

It means you have to have response teams, so if you dial 999, the

police turn up within a reasonable time. Because so many officers have

been funneled into these specialist squads, that service is

deteriorating and the public is losing confidence as a result.

Very quickly on that, two days ago you would have seen the crime

manifesto, where we announced we are putting 2,000 more officers,

taking them out of the squads you mentioned, putting them into

frontline policing. You said that would be quick, that is enough.

There is a general obsession with the numbers of police, which I

think is completely wrong. Form should follow function. We should

know what those police officers are doing. This mayor has actually

taken 900 police staff out of the system, that means police officers

are now going to be doing back room jobs, they will be in the call

centres, they are going to be doing the jobs they are not trained for.

That is completely wrong. You need a healthy police force, that has

got the right amount of staff to the right number of police officers.

And it's now lacking. We have a sort of shelf police officers with

no real support. I disagree, vehemently with that. It is very

important that you are cost effective, and that you get

officers out on the frontline where people want. One of the things we

have been able to do, by the way, is get 697 more officers on public

transport, which is why crime on public transport is down 20% on the

tube, 30% on the buses. You raise the subject of transport, you raise

the subject of that. Let as talk about transport, Ken Livingstone,

you are promising to cut fares, aren't you, both on the tubes and

on the buses? And on the overland trains there. Can you tell us what

the cost of that would be over four years? In the first year it is �268

million, it is slightly increasing with inflation in the subsequent

years, it is about �1 billion over four years. Where will you find it?

It is simple, at the moment the surplus in the fares' account, it

is �300 million, and is expected to be �338 million by the end of this

financial year. Money currently earmarked for improvements? It is

not. Of course it is. In the investment budget that Boris

Johnson has set each year, he has junt pent it by a billion pounds. -

- underspent it by a billion pounds. He doesn't chase things to make

sure they are built. In both the years when Ken Livingstone broke

his promises most flagrantly on fares n2005/06, putting them up RPI

by 12.5 bears and 12.9%, in both -- 12.5% and 12.9%, he had bigger

surplus than he identifies now. All that cash is dedicated to improving

our bus service or improving the tube. What Ken Livingstone has to

say, which business routes he would cut, which tube upgrade programme,

which improvements on the tube he would cancel, or whether he would

raise, as Jenny advocates, she's the only intellectually honest one

who follows his policy s a vast new Congestion Charge. Or, would you

put up, as you did before, would you whack up the council tax by a

huge amount. Ken Livingstone has to answer that question, which is it

to be? I will freeze the council tax for four years, you have been

right to do so in these times to keep money in people's pockets. I

won't have cash mounting in the fares accounts, I know the

transport omissions, they want an expanding surplus. Not a single

improvement would be curtailed? will start working on more. They

take two or three years to come through. Can I get a word in.

Livingstone says things he knows are not true. Do you honestly think

that Boris Johnson, if he had cash he could use to reduce fares in the

run up to an election, he wouldn't use it for that purpose.

wouldn't have done if he read his own budget. You told me on BBC

radio, on the Vanessa Show, that you had a bigger cash surplus when

you were mayor than Boris Johnson, you didn't use it. I did, I cut the

bus fares by 9%. In the year before the election. You put them up by 7%.

What London Liberal Democrats are suggesting. I cut fares by a third.

Quickly and then Jenny Jones. London Liberal Democrats are having

realistic cuts to those people who can least afford to travel. It is

all costed, and so we are going to have things. Cuts to those who can

least afford to travel? Cuts in fares for those people who can

least afford to travel. Jenny Jones? I want to thank Boris about

his compliments about our policy, he did misrepresent it slightly.

don't support your policy. We have the most radical transport agenda.

These guys are generally saying you can't keep fares down and invest in

the infrastruck tue, we are saying you can. You have to raise a bit --

infrastructure, we are saying you can, you have to raise a bit more.

We would keep fares below the cost of living for four years, and make

the improvements get done, and make sure we have enough bus routes in

London, we need some more. Boris Johnson, if I remember, you

promised an end to strike, and a no-strike-deal, how is it going?

I'm afraid, as you look at me with your supercilious way, it is

absolutely true, we haven't been able to negotiate a no-strike-deal,

for the good and simple reason, that the trades unions don't want

it, I think they are wrong, they should be persuaded to do it. What

we have been able to do is to take forward some very tricky

modernisation of the tube. And that is what I want. I was asking about

strikes, what about a thresholds in ballots? We did and have incurred

strikes, partly because the threshold for ballots wasn't as

high as it should be. There have been more strikes. Interestingly,

Jenny, since you interjected a useful comment there. Actually, the

number of people going up, the number of LU staff and RMT members

going out on strike has fallen under my leadership, because people

are getting more disaffected. have told us what you want to do.

want to take London forward with autoation, and driverless trains, I

know Ken Livingstone's pay masters won't like that. I want to ask a

question, before we hear briefly from the other candidates, it is

this. Ken Livingstone, if you were stuck in a lift with one of your

three contestants here today, who would you like to be stuck with?

Jenny Jones, I will be working closely with her if I'm lucky

enough to get the job. It might be more entertaining to be in the lift

with Boris Johnson, if only for comedy factor. I would like to be

in a lift in Ken, in a friendly, cleejic way, just to get him

acknowledge reality, to tell the truth about certain things. One

of you would kill the other one without a doubt. Can I choose you

to be in the lift with. I don't know you very well. No you can't!

In the event that you don't fancy any of these four to be stuck in a

lift with, there is a Trinity of other choices. Here they are.

The main thing is to set London alight, I think the country needs

to talk about politics, we need dialogue in politics, that is what

is missing in London, especially after the riots last year. I think

the solutions that have been proposed in terms of what needs to

be done for London they are the wrong kind of solutions. I think

when we talk about housing, we need a different approach of all London

as one city, not just 33 local authorities.

Of all the things to be discussed in this campaign, the one area for

which the mayor has the greatest responsibility is transport, shiny

red buses and cutting fares won't solve London's transport problems.

35% of all journeys in London is done by private car, higher in the

outer boroughs, yet people have to pay to park outside their own home,

and can't stop at local shops for fear of a parking ticket. I want

parking away from greedy councils and under one umbrella, only then

can you have a truly integrated transport policy, including the

motorists as well. Voters are disillusioned with the main

political parties, they need fresh alternatives, which I can bring to

this campaign. I resigned from my own job in the Department of Health,

because of the shambles the coalition Government were making

with the NHS reforms. I'm not a single issue candidate, as some

independents have been in the past. I have sensible policies on all

areas, transport, business and the economy. I want to remind people on

the 3rd of May, they are voting for an individual leader in London,

they don't have to vote for a party politician. Vote for someone who

will fight for Londoners, not old party political battles. A final

contribution from the studio. The question is this, 20 seconds or so.

How would you raise the tone of this campaign during its next few

weeks, Jenny Jones? It would be great if we could all be nice to

each other, I hope it doesn't sound too wooly and liberal, we will be

seeing a lot of each other. Brian Paddick? We have to start talking

about policies, we have to talk about the very positive things that

the London Liberal Democrats want to offer, and to remind Londoners

that it is not just about voting for the mayor, it is also about

voting for the assembly. Livingstone, do you want to raise

the tone? I remember debating with Steve Norris on two elections when

he was the Tory candidate, we discussed policy. All I would say

to Boris, let me ask you this, get rid of Lynton Crosby, you brought

in an attack dog from Australia. No-one in the public knows who he

is? Is this your idea of raising never had this with Steve Norris,

it has been personality attacks and smears, that is what Lynton Crosby

has been brought in to do. I think we need a focus on what kind of

mayor do you want. Raise the stone, how would you raise the tone?

you want one that unites, whacks taxes up or cuts them. We should

focus on the issue of investment, do you want a mayor that will

invest in London in jobs and growth, or get the axe out. You are

shameless? Finally, it is absolute lie serious, do you want a mayor

who breaks his promises, or a mayor who keeps them, that is the choice.

That is quite enough from all of us here. Quite enough from all of us

here, I said. Details of all the candidates for London mayor are on

the website, tomorrow night Kirsty will be here, until then, good

will be here, until then, good Thankfully the last of the wild and

wintry weather is on its way out. Still a pretty raw night across

southern areas. A cloudy start in the morning. Hopefully the skies

will brighten. Further north across the country, a lovely start to the

day, plenty of sunshine with a steady thaw. It will stay across

northern England, a vast improvement on today's winter

Wonderland. Down across the Midland and southern England, after a

cloudy start, things brightening up to some extent. For south western

parts of England, Devon and Cornwall, a struggle, one or two

showers here, and a breeze. A better day across Wales, a steady

thaw of lying snow, temperatures 8- 10. For Northern Ireland, and

indeed Scotland, things turning cloudy, with patchy rain turning up.

No great amounts, it might be a cloudy, drab, end to the day. Most

of the rain across Scotland to the far North West. Further ahead, as

we get into Friday. A lot of cloud around across the country. Thickest

across northern areas, with patchy rain. Further south, after a frosty

start, it will tend to cloud over, but should stay mostly dry. Through

much of the Easter weekend, there will be a fair bit of cloud.