Browse content similar to 07/06/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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We cannot allow mass killing to become part of every day reality in | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
Syria, the words of the UN's envoy, Kofi Annan, decribing exactly what | :00:16. | :00:21. | |
now seems to be happening. In the latest outrage, 78 civilians, many | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
women and children, apparently slaughtered with the finger again | :00:25. | :00:27. | |
being pointed at pro-Government militia. We will hear from the | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
women in the UN mission that was shot at, and ask if Syria is | :00:31. | :00:39. | |
descending into civil war. It is raining, the British weather is | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
with me. David Cameron meets Angela Merkel in Berlin, but can Britain | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
avoid the political weather in the two-speed Europe. We will discuss | :00:49. | :00:54. | |
if it is right to pursue a eurozone with Britain on the outside. Forced | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
marriage, tomorrow the Government plans to make it a criminal offence. | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
Will this help the women victim, or quite the reverse. We will debate | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
with two campaigners who take opposite sides on the new law. | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
The European country, where being a midwife at a home birth can get you | :01:10. | :01:20. | |
arrested, a personal report from Hungary. | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
Good evening, if words were bullet, the Syrian regime would already be | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
full of holes. At the United Nations, the secretary-general, Ban | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
Ki-Moon, spoke of the unspeakable brutality of the latest massacre. | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
Dozens were killed, 19 of them reportedly women and children. With | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
the UN's own investigators coming under fire. President Assad and his | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
Government have lost all legitimacy, Ban Ki-Moon said. With 50 countries | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
now planning to meet in Paris next month, to discuss how to get rid of | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
the Assad regime, what is particularly shocking in this | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
report, is that so many of the victims are indeed women and | :01:53. | :01:59. | |
children. The scenes which follow are quite horrific. | :01:59. | :02:07. | |
Two weeks ago it was Houla, now the Hama province. Here, as there, | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
reports of shelling and then claims that militia men from Alawite | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
villages, that surround Sunni populated Qubair, went in on a | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
killing spree. It all speaks to a growing tide of violence, and the | :02:20. | :02:26. | |
breaking down of the structure of a multiethnic state. The question is | :02:26. | :02:32. | |
now how far out of control is it going to get. Are the regime | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
secretly directing everything? It is unlikely, there are certainly | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
some groups operating independently on either side. In the same way the | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
opposition themselves are not controlling all the opposition | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
activity. Today, Syrian state television | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
blamed this latest act on terrorist groups too. Last week, President | :02:51. | :02:57. | |
Assad went to parliament to deny any official role in the Houla | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
killings. TRANSLATION: We will remain ashamed every time we | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
remember Houla, and I remember that the Houla massacre will not remain | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
engraved in the eyes of the children. Are the denials credible, | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
even if these latest incidents were perpetrated by rogue groups, the | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
Syrian Government still has a general responsibility for arming | :03:18. | :03:24. | |
certain militias, and indeed, adopting sectarian tactics. It has | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
been the regime's tactic, right from the word go, since the | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
uprising began in March of last year, to really play on the fears | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
of sectarian violence. To make people in Syria afraid that what | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
happened in Lebanon and Iraq could happen in Syria, moing the | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
different ethnic and sectarian communities that exist there. Even | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
though it looks quite bad from the outside, internally it continues to | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
play into this wider narrative the regime is spinning, that they are | :03:54. | :04:01. | |
the only defence against Syria defending into sectarian violence. | :04:01. | :04:06. | |
Today's pictures have shocked, but equally the escalation of violence | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
by opponents of the Assad regime, for example, using car bombs, has | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
also caused accusation and denial. It all suggests a train of violence | :04:15. | :04:24. | |
increasingly out of control. So is a picture of suicide bombing, | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
militia groups that operate as death squad, and warring ethnic | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
factions credible? Well, certainly, that is the position that Iraq | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
found itself in seven or eight years ago. It is quite possible | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
that Syria is well on the way there too. | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
The question now, is whether anything can be done to check that | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
slide towards oblivion. Reporting to the United Nations in | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
New York today, its former boss, and now Syria envoy, Kofi Annan, | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
painted a bleak picture of events on the ground. With his six-point | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
peace plan being widely ignored, he urged a new initiative. | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
The longer we wait, the more radicalised and polarised the | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
situation will become. And the harder it will be to forge a | :05:13. | :05:19. | |
political settlement. The international community has united, | :05:19. | :05:26. | |
but it now must take that unity to a new level. We must find the will, | :05:26. | :05:34. | |
and the common ground to act, and act as one. Individual actions, or | :05:34. | :05:40. | |
interventions, will not resolve the crisis. But Mr Annan is hemmed in | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
on all sides. China and Russia, whose leaders have met today, have | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
rallied allied countries to their position that the Assad regime | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
cannot be changed by outside military intervention. TRANSLATION: | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
We do not think that Annan's plan is dead, or it does not exist any | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
more, and there is no need to implement it or to fulfil the UN | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
Security Council resolutions. These attempts to say it is dead are | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
unacceptable. Civil strive is already widespread | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
in Syria, and never mind the debate about whether this is civil war or | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
not. With violence escalating and diplomatic options narrowed, it | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
will be a brutal summer. The Annan Plan, as we heard, may or | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
may not be dead, but it is certainly not working, is there | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
anything else they can do, a Plan B? Kofi Annan has been in with the | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
Security Council tonight, briefing them. He's tried to put some flesh, | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
I think, on the bones of that suggestion he made in the General | :06:40. | :06:42. | |
Assembly there, that the international community needs to | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
raise its level of involvement here. He has talked about clear | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
consequences for Syria, if it doesn't fulfil its part of the | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
Annan Plan. Which is to do with ceasefire, withdrawing heavy | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
weapons, allowing humanitarian access, that type of thing. Now, is | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
that possible with Russia and China holding the positions they do? | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
Clear consequences would seem to mean sanctions, or further | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
additional pressure, maybe, just possibly, it is going to be | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
achievable, because those two countries did sign up to the Annan | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
Plan. But any sort of more energetic intervention doesn't seem | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
credible. Mr Annan has also pushed this idea of trying to form a | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
Contact Group, that the permanent five members of the Security | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
Council, and one or two other regional powers, Turkey, Saudi | :07:29. | :07:36. | |
Arabia, but also Iran, the UK and the US are sceptical that could | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
achieve anything. We sense the diplomacy meandering about trying | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
to find purpose and meaning and not succeeding. Even if he does get | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
somewhere in that little space between what the Russians and | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
Chinese are prepared to agree to, and the western powers want, the | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
big question still unanswered, in trying to bring about an orderly | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
transition of power in Syria, will the opposition go along with that. | :07:56. | :08:02. | |
So far, they haven't. A little earlier I spoke on the | :08:02. | :08:09. | |
phone to Mikhail Gorbachev in -- Sausan Ghosheh in Damascus, I asked | :08:09. | :08:18. | |
her what happened when the UN monitors tried to enter Qubair. | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
dispatched patrols to go to al- Qubair, they have spend the whole | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
morning to try to get into the village to try to figure out what | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
happened, to verify the reports of large scale killings in that | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
village. Until sunset they weren't able to go in. They returned back | :08:34. | :08:40. | |
to our base in Hama. They will go back again tomorrow morning. | :08:40. | :08:47. | |
Ki-Moon was saying that gunmen shot at the UN monitors? We can confirm | :08:47. | :08:53. | |
that our car was hit, our UN vehicle was hit with small calibre | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
bullets. Have you any idea who was doing the shooting? No, as a UN | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
mission on the ground, we only report what we see and what we can | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
verify and what we can see with our own eyes. Is it possible for you to | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
do your job, given the terrible difficulties you face? We are | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
actually very, very concerned about the restriction imposed on our | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
movement, this is the first time we have seen it in such a large scale. | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
For this, this impedes our work, our mandate is to monitor, observe | :09:20. | :09:27. | |
and then report. If we can't have access to these place, this sort of | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
stops us from fulfiling our mandate, that is concerning for the UN as a | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
whole. Thank you very much for taking time | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
to talk to us from Damascus. Your welcome. | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
Two Syrians are with me here, Malcolm Tucker, who opposed | :09:41. | :09:48. | |
President Assad's ray -- My guests are here with me now. | :09:48. | :09:53. | |
Are you convinced, as Ban Ki-Moon is, that the Assad Government is | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
behind these killings? The Assad Government is in charge of the | :09:57. | :10:03. | |
country, they are in responsibility for the killings, even if they are | :10:03. | :10:10. | |
not behind it. All the information tells us so far is that the Assad | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
forces were nearby, and they allowed the shabiha to enter and | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
commit the crimes. That is the problem for those in favour of the | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
regime, either the regime is carrying out the killings or has | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
lost control of the country, in which case it is finished? I have | :10:26. | :10:32. | |
to disagree with the other guest. The investigation is still under | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
way. So you can't. The point is they are not in control of the | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
country, they could have stopped it, they could have stopped the | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
killing? The Government is trying to gain control. It is not in | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
control of the country? Because of the opposition, it is gaining more | :10:46. | :10:52. | |
weapons, more funding. They are getting more unconventional weapons. | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
It is very hard for the Government. They are killing themselves, I | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
simply don't follow your argument, neither do most of the viewers. The | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
Assad Government is not in control of your country? It is not keeping | :11:05. | :11:11. | |
it together? They are trying. it is not working? They are trying | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
to work, they are trying to gain control, it is trying to establish | :11:16. | :11:23. | |
law and order. Because the Government is still the only | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
official speaker for the ...Do feel your country is turning into | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
Lebanon? It is, and I blame the regime for it. First and foremost. | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
In certain parts of Syria it is already like Lebanon. To stop this, | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
of course the regime needs to go. But we need the regime to go in the | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
safest way possible for Siria. We need the international community to | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
-- Syria. We need the international community to behave in a more | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
responsible way. Don't settle their old scores in Syria, don't turn it | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
into an arena for international conflict, it is Russia versus Iran, | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
America versus Russia. We want to solve the Syrian crisis, not just | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
manage it. They are behaving in a way of how to manage the crisis, | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
not how to solve it. Did you accept that the Annan Plan is | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
fundamentally dead, it begins with a ceasefire, and there isn't a | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
ceasefire, it can't move on, it can't go anywhere? It is not dead, | :12:22. | :12:28. | |
but we need Annan nan Plus. It is very weak. First of all we need an | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
entire team of mediators, not just one person. We need a tough mandate | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
and higher number of monitor, and a stronger international consensus, | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
we didn't need the nations to fight over Syria. There isn't a | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
consensus? Absolutely not. Some countries say they support the | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
Annan Plan, and then they arm certain parts of the opposition, | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
that doesn't work. Beyond killing Syrians, has the Assad Government | :12:55. | :13:01. | |
got any other plans for bringing stability? First of all, let's gain | :13:01. | :13:11. | |
:13:11. | :13:12. | ||
control, or let's have a ceasefire first. The elections have started. | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
We want stability back to our country. That was my original point, | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
which is, you want stability in your country, the Assad regime is | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
unable to guarantee stability, it is falling apart? Yeah, but because | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
of the international pressure, because of the international | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
pressure. That's the main point. it is only foreigners that are | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
causing the problems in Syria? not saying only foreigners. Of | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
course not. I'm not saying the Government is an angel, no it is | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
not. They have lost all legitimacy, according to Ban Ki-Moon? No they | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
haven't. That is according to the United Nations? No they haven't | :13:48. | :13:54. | |
lost the back-up of the majority of the Syrian people. They didn't lose | :13:54. | :14:00. | |
legitimacy, they never had it to start with. I'm sorry. | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
legitimacy they never had popular legitimacy. I disagree with that. | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
Any solution has to involve the Syrians, agree there has to be a | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
Contact Group, but Syrians should be in the solution. They should | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
talk to all parties, they should involve every part of Syria not | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
just certain parts of the opposition. You agree the | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
opposition is divided amongst yourselves? Parts of the country | :14:26. | :14:32. | |
where the country opposition is not divided, the regime itself is not | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
united, but that is not the point, we need the international community | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
to rally around one solution, and you will see the Syrians rallying | :14:38. | :14:44. | |
behind it. Talk to all groups, talk to the armed groups but also the | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
Syrians, the rational voices coming from inside Syria as well. | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
Now the American armed robber, Willie Sutton, was once asked why | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
he robbed banks, he replied that that is where the money is. Berlin | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
is clearly where the money is in the eurozone. One way or another, | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
every European leader, including today, David Cameron, is full of | :15:03. | :15:08. | |
ideas for how Angela Merkel should spend it. We report on whether the | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
Prime Minister has signed up to a two-speed Europe, with Britain in | :15:11. | :15:20. | |
the slow lane, or perhaps on the hard shoulder. | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
Tomorrow sees the start of the quadrennial gathering of Europe's | :15:23. | :15:30. | |
elite. And like recent EU summits, there will be plenty of | :15:30. | :15:37. | |
misopportunities, offsides, and maybe some fancy foot work. England, | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
not seen by many as favourites, watches with itchy feet from the | :15:41. | :15:50. | |
sidelines. But who will win eurozone 2012. David Cameron was in | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
Berlin today with Angela Merkel, hoping to fill the platform shoes, | :15:54. | :16:03. | |
vacated when Merkozy ceased to be last week, anyone for CaMerkel. | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
Judging from the Town Hall chat with students, it was all about | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
accentuating the positives between two strong leaders. We are strong | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
allies and strong supporters together, with the positive steps | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
that we live within our means, free trade and enterprise, and the | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
structural reform needed to make Europe grow again. For her part, | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
Angela Merkel was even playing down the gulf that might result from a | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
two-speed EU, which might arise if she pursues with her idea of more, | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
rather than less Europe. TRANSLATION: We have always had | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
different forms of integration in Europe. So this is not a new | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
development for us. And the decision taken on the part of some | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
countries, like Great Britain, and Denmark, who made their position | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
clear at the beginning when we introduced the common currency, | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
they made it clear they would not join. It became obvious, it has | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
been obvious that we can co-exist quite well and work together quite | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
well. If we don't take each and every step at the same time and all | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
of us together. Since using his veto in last December's summit, | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
does anyone listen to David Cameron in Europe any more. Cameron has | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
become a little bit of a nuisance for eurozone leaders, he might be | :17:15. | :17:20. | |
told very clearly to shut up, because his remarks may be less | :17:20. | :17:27. | |
helpful than they should be. The eurozone may want to sort out their | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
problems without the constant advice from parties that don't want | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
to get involved any way. Angela Merkel, seen meeting German players | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
ahead of their opening match at the weekend, was also softening her | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
stance on solutions for the eurozone crisis. She would, | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
afterall, go along with banking union, and even eurobonds, but only | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
if Europe achieved full political union, no less. | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
TRANSLATION: We need more Europe, not just the common currency, but | :17:55. | :18:01. | |
we also need more common bugetry policies. We need a political union. | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
Step-by-step we need to hand over power to Europe. Because the | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
financial services sector matters so much to the UK economy, Britain | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
has been one of the main winners are from the single market, that | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
guarantees the free movement of people and money across European | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
border, if there was a two-speed Europe, and Britain remained in the | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
single market, of course, then the City of London's reputation as a | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
financial hub could be retained and even enhanced. The problem arises | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
after a banking union or fiscal union, when Berlin and Paris give | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
their banks an ultimatum, which basically says stay in Britain and | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
be dependant on the Treasury here if things go wrong, or pack your | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
bags and bring them all back to Germany and France. What would a | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
two or three-speed Europe look like, who would be in which camp. The | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
inner core would be all the economically robust countries, like | :18:52. | :18:58. | |
Germany, Finland and Austria, but may include Estonia and Slovenia. | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
Those with deep economic difficulties like Ireland, Italy, | :19:01. | :19:07. | |
Spain, Greece and Portugal, what like to join the inner core, but | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
the austerity required may be difficult. Then there is those | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
countries within the EU who aspire to join the euro, Poland, Hungary | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
and Romania, it is unclear at this stage whether they would even want | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
to join the fast-track club, let alone be allowed to do so. That | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
leaves the outer core of countries, including Britain, Sweden and | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
Denmark, who may wish to be part of the EU single market, but little | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
else. They might decide to align themselves much closer to non-E | :19:34. | :19:40. | |
United Nations, like Europe. future of Europe has to be more | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
integrated, banking union, an economic union, or eurobonds, | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
collective borough. All the changes will require new treaties. New | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
treaties will require a British signature, so the institution of | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
the EU, like the commission, can manage the new systems. And they | :19:57. | :20:03. | |
are borrowed that Mr Cameron will do what he did before, block the EU | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
treaty, and they will have to work outside the framework of the EU | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
bookies think the eventual winners of Euro 2012 will be either Spain | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
or Italy. Greece is certainly not tipped. Their politicians were busy | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
attacking each other on TV, ahead of next week's second general | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
election. That could decide the economic fate of an entire | :20:25. | :20:35. | |
:20:35. | :20:35. | ||
continent. Is a multi-speed Europe inevitable, is it a good idea for | :20:36. | :20:42. | |
Britain. The my guests are here. Was this actually quite a big day, | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
here was the Prime Minister of our country, and the Chancellor of | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
Germany, broadly agreeing that we have to have a multi-speed Europe? | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
There is lots of agreement, including that you have to deal | :20:53. | :20:59. | |
with your deficit, reform your economy, whilst at the same time, | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
try to get growth into the European economies on the wider scale. For | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
example, delivering on the single market in the digital abreen that, | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
in services and so -- arena, and in services and so on. We have done | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
all that before, this was a big day in terms of moving at different | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
speeds towards European integration, or not, perhaps, in the case of | :21:17. | :21:23. | |
Britain? This rown't maic idea that Europe -- romantic idea that Europe | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
moves at one speed, as it has unravelled it is a multi-speed | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
Europe, it is a patchwork of problems at the moment. We are on | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
the outside whatever speed you are talking about, from the graphic we | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
saw, it is clear we will not be in the decision-making core? Most of | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
the British public would be thankful we are outside the | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
eurozone. He has a point there, most of the British public would be | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
thankful for it. It is a reality, we have a multi-speed Europe right | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
now? We have a multi-speed Europe, the question is do we have a two- | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
tier Europe, and can Britain actually have some say over the | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
future of its economy. Because we might not be in the euro, I don't | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
think we should be, immediately. But eight out of ten of our top | :22:07. | :22:14. | |
trading partners are in the euro, the City of London depends totally | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
on the euro, that is why George Osborne and David Cameron have | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
overcome their Euro-scepticism and are promoting integration. Isn't | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
the argument the exact opposite of what you are making, if we were in | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
the euro, we would have less say on the economy, it would all be run | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
from Berlin any way? There is a real-life example of what will | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
happen if we carry on down the policy we are adopting at the | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
moment, which is Norway. Which benefits a huge amount from the EU, | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
it is their biggest single market, but they have absolutely no say | :22:45. | :22:54. | |
over any of the regulations that get made, they don't get a seat at | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
the table and have no say. Britain haven't joined every project, there | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
was one principle that we should get a seat at the table and shape | :23:02. | :23:04. | |
the future of the European Union. What is happening here is we are | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
not being pushed out, we are marginalising ourselves. We are | :23:09. | :23:11. | |
marginalising ourselves, and we will be another nor I wa, perhaps | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
without the oil? The difference is -- Norway, perhaps without the oil? | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
The difference is we are part of the single market and will continue | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
to protect that. David Cameron using the veto is exactly that. | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
Nobody cares about the veto? reason he's in Germany, I would | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
argue, is we are a very important country, if there is going to be | :23:29. | :23:35. | |
closer political, and by the way, I would go further, emotional union. | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
The German people have to emotionally feel they can support | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
Greece or other countries that are going through the pain they are | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
going through. Part of the reason we have a seat at the table is | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
because we can block those closer political unions coming together. | :23:50. | :23:57. | |
Unless we are offered protections. It is an entirely negative power? | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
We are in a pretty strong position, because we are a pretty powerful | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
economy. We are not a nor I wa, we are a strong economy. That is fair | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
point, we are much more like the German economy than any other | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
economy in Europe? We have a lot in common with the Germans, we support | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
liberalising open markets, we want the same as many countries within | :24:16. | :24:18. | |
the European Union. And yet, we are forcing ourselves into a position | :24:18. | :24:24. | |
where we are in a minority and not shaping things. Because of an | :24:24. | :24:26. | |
ideolgical Euro-scepticism. Look at what the other countries that are | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
not in the euro are doing, look at Sweden, Poland, countries that | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
agree with us. They are not joining the euro, but they want to be part | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
of everything else. We are actually sitting on the outside. I'm only | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
smiling because that argument that we will be left behind, in some way, | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
has been going on for deck kaisd. The Europhiles have been re-- | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
decades, the Europhiles have been resoundly defeated on that issue. | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
Is it going to be, as George Osborne is hinting, an in-out | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
referendum on Europe, would that be a good thing? If you make | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
Chancellor Merkel at her word, that you need more not less Europe, with | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
politic kal and emotional Europe, there will have to be new treaties | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
-- political and emotional Europe, there will be new treaties. It | :25:10. | :25:15. | |
wasth this was a historical act, the Sovereignty Act, as I call it, | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
where there is an automatically referendum. You are not only | :25:19. | :25:25. | |
relaxed, you want that and bring it on? We need closer Europe | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
integration, more Europe not less Europe, we have to bring it to the | :25:29. | :25:34. | |
people because we have an act in place. You would prefer that, an | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
in-out referendum? If we have that I will campaign for a yes vote, | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
because it is massively in Britain's interest to be part of | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
the European Union. I don't see why we are distracting people with | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
these kinds of things, when the future of the euro is at stake. The | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
big debate everywhere else is actually about realishs use, about | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
how you shape the future of our continent -- real issues, about how | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
he you shape the future of your continent. This is clearly an | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
urgent matter about saving the euro, would you see it before the end of | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
the parliament? We have to wait for the dust to settle. There is so | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
many problems and pain, whether it is Spain with the bank problems, | :26:11. | :26:16. | |
that will affect the sovereign, or visa verse in Portugal, which is a | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
sovereign problem that affected the banks. In this parliament a | :26:20. | :26:26. | |
referendum wouldn't be kwhrond the bounds of pos -- beyond the bounds | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
of possibility? We will have to see what the bigger and deeper | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
political union will be. We have already passed an act that | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
automatically requires the British public to have their say. | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
Parents who force their children to marry will face going to jail under | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
new laws expected to be announced by the Home Secretary, Theresa May, | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
tomorrow. The Home Office consultation which closed at the | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
end of March, was launched at the request of David Cameron. Last year | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
the Prime Minister said forced marriage was little more than | :26:55. | :27:05. | |
:27:05. | :27:17. | ||
Anwar makes from the British High Commission in Pakistan's capital, | :27:17. | :27:22. | |
Islamabad, raising awareness of forced marriage. It tells the | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
fictional story of Sara, a bright schoolgirl sent to Pakistan, where | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
she's forced to marry a cousin, 15 years her senior, there she is ayes | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
buesed and left to do the house -- abused and left to do the household | :27:35. | :27:44. | |
chores. The Home Office estimates that between 5,000-8,000 forced | :27:44. | :27:49. | |
marriages take place every year. But in 2011, only some 1500 cases | :27:49. | :27:54. | |
were reported to the Government's Forced Marriage Unit. The majority | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
of victims are of south Asian origin, with children as young as | :27:58. | :28:03. | |
five, known to be coerced into marriage. | :28:03. | :28:10. | |
We have the chair of the Ashiana Network, a charity that provides | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
refuge for victims of forced marriage,. There is an agreement | :28:14. | :28:19. | |
that there may be a problem here. What do you think of the prospect | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
of criminalising it? I think it is another tool that will help young | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
people protect themselves against being foreed into marriage. Why? | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
think -- forced into marriage? Why, I think it will give them a more | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
clear understanding of what their rights are. At the moment we have | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
the civil legislation, a very positive way, but actually having | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
the weight of the judiciary behind young people, and women, and boys | :28:42. | :28:47. | |
and girls that are forced into marriage, will make it far more | :28:47. | :28:52. | |
powerful. Presumably, if it helps one 14-year-old girl not be forced | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
to do something she doesn't want to do, it is a good thing? We welcome | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
any measure designed to strengthen the armoury against forced marriage. | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
But we have real concerns about whether or not this is actually the | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
most useful measure. The reality is, that it's unnecessary, it is | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
surplus to requirements. Existing criminal offences are more than | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
adequate to deal with the problem. What sort of things? What is forced | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
marriage, it involves assault, rape, kidnap. To date, those have not an | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
actively prosecuted. Those are already on the statute book, we | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
don't need more legislation. Doesn't this all bring it all | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
together, saying you can't do this, you as a parent cannot force | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
somebody to do something they don't want to? It will provide some | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
symbolic value, we are concerned as to what practical measures it will | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
provide, what assistance on a pragmatic level it will provide for | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
victim. It will confuse victim, we are concerned it will drive the | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
issue underground and possibly overseas. Do you think there is an | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
argument there, if you are a very vulnerable teenager, in this | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
position, and you are forced, not just to disobey your parents, but | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
actually to say to the police, look my mum should go to jail, or my | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
father should go to jail, or my uncle, whatever it is, that is | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
pretty difficult to see that? a very difficult thing to do. But | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
what we are talking about is the prevention of abuse. In the case of | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
young people it is child abuse. So, actually, if this legislation does | :30:20. | :30:28. | |
come in, it will prevent the rape, the serial rape, the domestic abuse, | :30:28. | :30:30. | |
the torture. Suicide rates amongst Asian girls is three-times the | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
national average. We need to look at all the consequences of not | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
having this as a criminal offence. We looked at the figures and quoted | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
them today, do you see a lot of this, because the figures seem to | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
be a bit flexible, depending on who you talk to? Nobody really knows | :30:44. | :30:49. | |
the amount of people foreed into marriage. We have a 24/7 helpline, | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
we have numerous calls in from young people every day. We go into | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
schools and deliver assemblies, every school I have visited, there | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
has been at least one person who has come up who has a friend or | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
somebody they know. Every school? Every school we have been in to. | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
What would you do about this, you said that there is an armoury of | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
things available now. Presumably you are not content. If it is as | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
widespread as we have been talking about? The figures, as you say, are | :31:14. | :31:19. | |
flexible. We would question figure of 5,000-8,000 a year, it is | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
certainly a very significant problem, but those figures are | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
conflated with other issues of honour-based violence. We need a | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
proper study into how many cases there are out there. What this | :31:31. | :31:36. | |
criminalisation will do, the creation of a specific criminal | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
offence, will undermine existing civil remedies, they have been in | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
place for the past three-and-a-half years, it has served to protect | :31:42. | :31:49. | |
about 400 victims. It provides very fast and effective remedy. Would | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
you just sit back and say there is a prob embl, but it is fine. For | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
instance -- problem, but it is fine. First Minister, we make it an -- | :31:57. | :32:02. | |
for instance, we make it an offence to speed on the motorway, society | :32:02. | :32:08. | |
doesn't like it and we shouldn't do it, criminalising it is symbolic? | :32:08. | :32:14. | |
have axed that already. We are concerned it -- acknowledged that | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
already, we are concerned it will drive it underground or overseas. | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
We don't have a specific offence of domestic violence, that doesn't | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
stop us effectively prosecuting cases of domestic violence. The | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
concern we also have, and the noises are coming from Government | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
on this already, as anticipated, that there may be cuts to Legal Aid. | :32:35. | :32:40. | |
And so where it is deemed to be sufficient protection, which virtue | :32:40. | :32:45. | |
of criminal bail conditions, then there will be no Legal Aid | :32:45. | :32:50. | |
available for the civil remedy. would hope the remedies already | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
there will remain. We are told there is additional funding | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
available to help with education in schools, we will run a big | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
programme. We are hoping that will make a huge difference. It won't | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
undermine things? One would hope the Government would see what is | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
already there, and the Legal Aid we would hope would be in existence. | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
If there is money available in these times of austerity, it should | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
be provided to support those essential lifelines, which are the | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
support organisations for these victims. As you know, that is a big | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
if, in these times. The practice of giving birth at | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
home, is as old as human history. In recent years it has enjoyed | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
renewed popularity here in Britain, and some other parts of the world. | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
In Eastern Europe it is not so easy. In fact, it is actively discouraged | :33:37. | :33:42. | |
by the medical establishment and authorities. In Hungary until | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
recently, home birth was almost illegally. Agnes Gereb, an | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
independent midwife, was taking huge risks attending women at home. | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
She spent time in prison and is under house arrest. | :33:54. | :34:02. | |
Nick Thorpe, a long time friend of Agnes, has sent this personal view | :34:02. | :34:12. | |
:34:12. | :34:23. | ||
A film about the birth of my second son, Matthew. He, like all my five | :34:23. | :34:29. | |
sons of born here in our flat in Budapest. Each birth was such a | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
good, safe, positive experience, that is why we have so many | :34:32. | :34:38. | |
children. That was very much thanks to the work of one brave pioneering | :34:38. | :34:48. | |
midwife, Agnes Gereb. Like many other couples, who have given birth | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
with her, we regard her as something like the second mother to | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
our children. But, 15 years on from Matthew's birth, the hands that | :34:57. | :35:07. | |
:35:07. | :35:07. | ||
delivered our baby are tied. She's been ostracised from the medical | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
profession, sentenced to two years in prison, and banned from doing | :35:11. | :35:19. | |
the work she loves. When Agnes Gereb appeared in the courtroom | :35:19. | :35:25. | |
behind me, the judge in justifying her sentence said this was a woman | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
that Hungarian society needs to be protected from. So, what did she do | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
wrong? And how will her fate effect the future of birth in Eastern | :35:34. | :35:41. | |
Europe? Agnes Gereb has been under house arrest for the past 16 months, | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
awaiting trial on further charges. She has successfully delivered over | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
3,000 babies. But whenever a home birth ended up in hospital, an | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
investigation was launched. And when tragedy struck in September | :35:54. | :36:04. | |
:36:04. | :36:07. | ||
2007, and a baby died in childbirth, she was found guilty of negligence. | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
TRANSLATION: I did not commit malpractice, but I could have been | :36:12. | :36:17. | |
much more skillful. I wish so much I had been better. Until now, | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
whenever that particular complication occurs in my practice, | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
I could solve it, that time I failed. It is a huge trauma for me, | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
as well as the little girl's family. I will always think of them on the | :36:29. | :36:35. | |
15th of September. Why were you sentenced then, if you made no | :36:35. | :36:41. | |
mistakes? TRANSLATION: Their approach to me was not benevolent | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
from the start. The Hungarian medical experts who gave evidence | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
at the trial looked at what happened exclusively from the | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
perspective of hospital practice. They tried to transplant an | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
obstetricians' behaviour in the ward, on to a midwife at a home | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
birth. You can't do that, these are two completely different | :37:01. | :37:08. | |
professions. More than 99% of Hungarian babies are born in | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
hospitals. Simply assisting at a home birth could result in | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
prosecution, until last year. And the leading body of the profession | :37:16. | :37:22. | |
remains totally opposed to it. Hungarian doctors are proud of low | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
neo-natal death statistic, comparable to those in western | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
Europe. I personally think that to deliver a baby at a hospital is | :37:29. | :37:36. | |
much safer for the baby and even for the mother. 90% of deliveries | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
go on without any complication, but if there is any complication, if | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
there is a serious comply kaiing, then it is much safer if -- | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
complication, then it is much safer if you are in a hospital. The all | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
important thing for us, as obsstrigss in hundred guarantee, is | :37:52. | :37:57. | |
the safety of the baby or the mother. Neither Dr Acs, or any | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
members of the Board of Obstetricians, would be drawn on | :38:00. | :38:05. | |
the case of their former colleague, Agnes Gereb. She was once a part of | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
this world, an obstetrician in a top university clinic, before | :38:08. | :38:13. | |
quitting to set up as an independent midwife, attending to | :38:13. | :38:19. | |
mothers and delivering babies at home. TRANSLATION: I can best | :38:19. | :38:26. | |
explain my switch from being a doctor to a midwife, with two words, | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
"equality", and "presence". To be really there for the woman and | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
really share in her joy. When a woman thanks me after her birth for | :38:34. | :38:40. | |
my help, I always want to say, no, thank you, for letting me be here | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
with you. There is something intimate and so universal, which a | :38:43. | :38:52. | |
midwife shares with a mother and her baby. | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
Joli Szaz gave birth to Eliza two years ago, at home, etended by | :38:56. | :39:02. | |
Agnes Gereb. The baby had a strepkok cuss infection, which can | :39:02. | :39:08. | |
cause -- strepkok cuss infection, which can cause brain-damage or | :39:08. | :39:12. | |
death, an ambulance was called, they sued Agnes Gereb for | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
negligence, not the parents. The baby and her parents are fine. | :39:16. | :39:22. | |
TRANSLATION: The main thing for me was not the place of birth for my | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
children, but I was treated as an adult throughout the pregnancy and | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
birth, that I was intelligent enough to choose the birth for my | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
child. I received that from Agnes Gereb. Everywhere else they gave | :39:34. | :39:44. | |
the impression that they wanted to save the baby from me. | :39:44. | :39:51. | |
Hungary is deeply divided over Agnes Gereb. Many share my view, | :39:51. | :39:59. | |
that this is one woman's battle for a gentler philosophy and practice | :39:59. | :40:07. | |
of birth care. Others regard her as a dangerous and reckless witch. The | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
Government has already taken one important step, last year they put | :40:10. | :40:17. | |
home birth on a legal footing for the first time. Now the President | :40:17. | :40:22. | |
is considering whether to absolve its leading practicer of the crimes | :40:22. | :40:28. | |
for which she was convicted, and grant Agnes clemency. Last year | :40:28. | :40:33. | |
your Government regulated home birth for the first time in Hungary. | :40:33. | :40:38. | |
Would it not be strange to first allow something and then send to | :40:38. | :40:44. | |
prison the best known practitioner? TRANSLATION: We have to make a | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
strict division here between what a court of law decided and what the | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
Government did. As a Government we recognise that there was a legal | :40:52. | :40:59. | |
vacuum, so we regulated it. While that obviously has no retrospective | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
effect on the criminal proceedings, it is true, if Agnes Gereb had not | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
drawn public attention, first the possibility of fathers being | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
present at birth, and now to out of hospital births, then our | :41:11. | :41:18. | |
regulation might not have been born. In hospitals, though, opposition to | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
home birth is deep-rooted. Hungarian parents expect to pay at | :41:22. | :41:27. | |
least a month's wages to an obstetrician, in gratitude, for the | :41:27. | :41:33. | |
safe birth of their child. Midwives are sidelined, that gives a strong | :41:33. | :41:40. | |
financial incentive to doctors to maintain the status quo. | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
TRANSLATION: Statistics show the public regard the healthcare system | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
as the most corrupt. You can't change it overnight. One cause is | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
that doctors' wages are so low, and the health budget is simply not | :41:51. | :41:59. | |
capable of doubling or tripling their wages. Four times a day the | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
police check on Agnes. After 32 years attending births, half that | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
time in hospital, half at home births, it has been a | :42:09. | :42:14. | |
claustrophobic, deeply frustrating experience, to be couped up here, | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
not even allowed out in the yard. Why are you fighting, and what are | :42:18. | :42:28. | |
you fighting for? TRANSLATION: I'm fighting for anything, then I'm | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
fighting for peace. If children are born in an undisturbed way, they | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
will be more peaceful. What do I want to achieve, that everyone be | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
allowed to do what they are good at. I think I'm good at attending home | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
births. And I want home births to be available for everyone who wants | :42:44. | :42:54. | |
:42:54. | :42:54. | ||
Without Agnes, the first children we had would almost certainly have | :42:54. | :42:59. | |
been by Caesarean, and then we certainly would not have had five. | :42:59. | :43:06. | |
So I can say, without exaggeration, that Jack and Casper, owe their | :43:06. | :43:11. | |
lives to Agnes Gereb. For more families, not just here in Hungary, | :43:12. | :43:14. | |
but across Eastern Europe, to get the kind of support during birth, | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
that we had, would mean something akin to a revolution, but are the | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
authorities willing to shake up the maternity wards, and take on the | :43:22. | :43:30. | |
medical profession? That decision lies in the hands of President | :43:30. | :43:36. | |
Janos Ader, any day now, he will have to decide whether to grant | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
Agnes Gereb clemency. The present Hungarian Government has a poor | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
image internationally, freeing her would look good for its human | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
rights record. But it would be a blow to the doctors and the justice | :43:48. | :43:53. | |
system, which found her guilty. Let's have a look at the front | :43:53. | :43:57. | |
pages tomorrow morning. The Guardian has the Syrian | :43:57. | :44:07. | |
:44:07. | :44:07. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 54 seconds | :44:07. | :45:02. |