02/07/2012 Newsnight


02/07/2012

Emily Maitlis asks what the Bank of England knew during the Barclays scandal. Plus police officers recount their memories of the English riots.


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Transcript


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As the Government announces an inquiry into the rate-fixes scandal,

:00:13.:00:15.

questions about how much the Bank of England knew about what happens

:00:15.:00:20.

happening at Barclays. The shock waves continue, this

:00:20.:00:22.

programme understands the Treasury Select Committee will examine

:00:22.:00:27.

claims by a whistle-blower, and e- mails between the Central Bank and

:00:27.:00:29.

Barclays. We ask the Treasury Minister, and the Labour Party, how

:00:29.:00:33.

many more inquiries they think they need to get to the bottom of a

:00:33.:00:36.

major mess. And what's it like to be a

:00:36.:00:41.

policeman when London burns? We are talking wheelie bins on fire,

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bottles set alight, and made into firebombs and thrown at us, I have

:00:46.:00:49.

never seen anything like t and I pray to God I never see anything

:00:49.:00:53.

like it again. Tonight we hear from the police in the frontline of the

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English riots. My colleague screamed they were being attacked.

:00:57.:01:00.

What had happened is this machete had appeared through the hole in

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the window, and had started hacking at his hand. Could they have done

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more to stop the destruction. didn't stand back and watch

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Tottenham burn, which most people make out, which hurts a great deal.

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We did everything we possibly could, with the resources we had.

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We will talk to a rioter, a minister, a Met chief, and the

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woman they call the "heroin of Hackney".

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Good evening, here is the choice, an investigation of bankers by

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politicians, or a wider, longer, public inquiry that could take

:01:41.:01:48.

forever and be relegate today dausy shelf. Are we getting any closer to

:01:48.:01:51.

the epicentre of the scandal. Tomorrow a Treasury Select

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Committee will look into claims by a whistle-blower that could throw

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the Bank of England right in the middle of the scandal. Allegations

:01:59.:02:09.
:02:09.:02:13.

of e-mails between Paul Tucker and The 2008 financial crash left the

:02:13.:02:23.
:02:23.:02:23.

City reeling, for a while put paid to big bashs and big bonuses.

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Of course the party started again. But only for misdemeanors of the

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past to catch up with them. On Wednesday evening, behind this

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wall, there was to have been a lavish party, senior bankers had

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invited politicians and lobbyists to help them celebrate the summer.

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Today we found out it was cancelled, instead the banking community has a

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much less glamorous affair to look forward. To the Treasury Select

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Committee will grill Barclays boss, Bob Diamond. Members of the

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Treasury Select Committee tomorrow meet tomorrow to strategyise.

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Central to their deliberations will be a phone call between Barclays

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chief executive, Bob Diamond, and the deputy governor, Paul Tucker. A

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phone call both men are said to regard differently, but led junior

:03:08.:03:12.

Barclays executive to believe the Bank of England sanctioned their

:03:12.:03:15.

behaviour. Tonight we have new allegations from a whistle-blower.

:03:15.:03:19.

Newsnight has seen a letter passed to the Treasury Select Committee,

:03:19.:03:22.

ahead of Bob Diamond's appearance before them on Wednesday t alleges

:03:22.:03:32.
:03:32.:03:43.

not only phone calls between the Tomorrow the committee will discuss

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the letter. Sources tell Newsnight much is still up in the air. The

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committee chair has yet to decide whether he will call Paul Tucker.

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Today, faced by an opposition calling for a full public inquire

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year, the Government made its own move. -- inquiry, the Government

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made its own move. I want to us establish a full Parliamentary

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Committee of inquiry, involving both Houses, chaired by the head of

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the Commons Treasury select committee, the iny -- inquiry will

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take evidence under oath, and will be able to talk to advisers from

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this and the last Government, and it will be given by the Government

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all of the resources it needs to do its job properly. Labour continued

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to push for more. There have already been select committee

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reports into the banking crisis, a number of select committee reports

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into the banking crisis. I appreciate the Leveson Inquiry has

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been uncomfortable for politicians on all sides. But that is the way

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it should be. We will continue to argue for a full and open inquiry,

:04:57.:05:01.

independent of bankers and independent of politicians.

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This evening Labour insists they will vote against the Government's

:05:06.:05:13.

inquiry, making it very hard for Andrew Tyire to achieve consensus.

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More details of the Government's plans came from the Chancellor this

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afternoon. Fines imposed on banks will now go to the public purse

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rather than back to the banking industry. A LIBOR inquiry will be

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led by Martin Wheatley, and there will be a joint parliamentary

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inquiry led by the chairman of the Treasury select commity. But he

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insisted his inquiry is also about LIBOR, not banking ethics. Stephen

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Barclay is a Tory MP who once worked for Barclays and the FSA, he

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thinks more is needed than even his own party has announced.

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inquire inquiry needs to lead to us the truth, but it needs to change

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behaviour. Behaviour is changed by having individual fines. At present

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people get a bonus individually, but the fine is imposed on the firm.

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What we need to do is fine the individual so, we change the

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behaviour F you look the fines individuals have faced so far,

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almost always it has been less than a bonus for each year. Ed Miliband

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is going hard for a full public inquiry, keen to repeat the success

:06:30.:06:34.

of calling for an inquiry into the press. The Government don't want to

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be caught acting too slow t could end up compounding their biggest

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presental problem, that they are too close to people in the City.

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Most of the deregulation occurred under Labour, but having said that

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the process of deregulation started under Thatcher, and the coalition

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haven't done anything to correct the situation. It is hard to find

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someone not to blame amongst politicians at the moment.

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Thatcherite, big bang, or brownite smaller bang, it is now the race to

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be the one to snuff out the lights. On the whistle-blower allegations

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the Bank of England said they were not aware of any e-mails, the FSA

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has said in the course of their investigation they found no

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instruction was given by the Bank of England to instruct Barclays to

:07:24.:07:28.

manipulate LIBOR. Barclays said they could not go further than the

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FSA's findings at this stage. Let as take it on with us, we have the

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Treasury Minister and the Shadow Treasury Minister. We have got

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three different inquiries, Labour's calling for a public inquiry as

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well. Isn't it notorious that when you call for an inquiry, it tells

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the public that you basically don't want to make decisions any more?

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have been very clear, the two inquiries that George Osborne

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announce today, the first is into the process of looking at LIBOR and

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criminal sanctions, and is to report at the end of the summer w

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the view to putting legislation forward later this year, to go into

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the financial services bill, going through parliament at the moment.

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The report, the committee we are setting up under Andrew Tyrie's

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chairmanship, is to report by the end of the year, there is Banking

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Reform Bill going through parliament next year, any

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legislative proposals that Andrew makes could be made in that bill.

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We know that Barclays broke the rules wrecks know they have been

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fined and the FSA is looking into - we know that they have been fined

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and the FSA is looking at other banks what are you doing to stop

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them behaving badly? We are, in The Libertines inquiry, is looking to

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the future, and ensuring there are criminal sanctions in place if

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someone tries to manipulate LIBOR again. That was a big hole in what

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Balls bulls designed, we have to plug. That where Tyrie is involved,

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we need broader issues around transparency and ethic to see if we

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can change the culture in banking. You think the public tuning in

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tonight will say, that's good, the politicians are in charge of an

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inquiry into bankers, that will reassure people? What people want

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is action happening. The public inquiry called for the Labour Party

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does kick this into the long grass, we need action sooner rather than

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waiting two or three years, an expensive inquiry, people want

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action. That is what we will deliver. This is just a bidding war,

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it is a bidding war for public opinion to see who can go further

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and bigger and more extravagant in the inquiries they are calling for?

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If there is a difference of opinion, and I think some people, and the

:09:33.:09:37.

general public, recognise there is a moment of reckoning for the banks.

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It is so serious with this particular scandal, manipulating

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independent interest rate statistic tixs, that you have to have a

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cathartic moment where you have a proper independent. A cathartic

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moment where we had with the Chilcot Inquiry, which nobody can

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remember is still going on and hasn't reported? To say you

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shouldn't have an inquiry because they last for three years, you can

:10:02.:10:05.

set the terms of reference, and have the non-partisan approach.

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What we are seeing is on Friday, when we called for this full

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inquiry in the wake of this scandal, the Prime Minister said, oh no, it

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is not necessary. Of course, over the weekend they have realised that

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the public are absolutely sick to the back teeth with this whole

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story, today we have managed to extract, well a partial inquiry, it

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is not good enough just to have politicians doing it. When this

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story broke, into political party would even condemn Diamond. It is

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absolutely right, we didn't hear from any political leader, it took

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a whole week? Ed Miliband has been saying this week it is time for

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change in the leadership in Barclays. The key thing on the

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LIBOR scandal is this, I raised this issue with Mark, during the

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financial services bill, when we put amendments about stewardship

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and duty of care to customers, all rejected. When I raised The

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Libertines issue and said what is the Government's view, do you have

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a view, it was a one-word answer, no. Are you worried about the Bank

:11:03.:11:06.

of England involvement in this, you have heard about the report

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tonight? Going back to the point Chris made, when that issue was

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raised in committee, I knew what was going on, I knew there was a

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review of LIBOR happening. didn't you say that? I knew the BBC

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was leading, that the Treasury, the FSA and the Bank of England and

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banks were involved in it. I don't think it was my job to pre-empt

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that inquiry, and we have to wait until the FSA report. You told

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parliament there was no view about it. That is hardly pre-emptive if

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you said had you no view. Politicians are accused of shooting

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before they ask the question, it is my job to get the regulation right.

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That is why we are in the land of inquiries. According to what we

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have heard, the Bank of England may be at the epicentre of this, does

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that concern you? What's very clear is that the Treasury Select

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Committee has called, not just Bob Diamond, but also the regulators,

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including the Bank of England, to take part in that inquiry, I think

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it is important that the questions are asked. Are you disturbed by

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what you have heard this evening? It is absolutely important that the

:12:11.:12:15.

questions are asked, the Treasury Select Committee inquiry is way of

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doing, that let's wait for the answers. Are you concerned that

:12:19.:12:21.

senior Conservatives like Michael Fallon, the Deputy Chairman of the

:12:22.:12:25.

panel, who sits on the Treasury Select Committee, who will be

:12:25.:12:32.

asking the questions s also a non- executive director of Tullet

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Prixbon, are you satisfied he's not involved in this? Under this

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Government and the previous Government, the Treasury Select

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Committee has the ability to challenge things. Are you worried

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that Michael Fallon's bank will not be involved in this when he's

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sitting on the Treasury Select Committee? A number of banks are

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being investigated. The FSA investigation is on going, I'm not

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going to provide rauning commentary on who is and who isn't -- a

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running commentary on who is and who isn't being investigated.

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will a Government majority of politicians leading an inquiry,

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will that inspire the public that this is some how independent and

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forensic, it is not good enough. This is the difficulty, the

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Government haven't grasped how serious this issue is, you think

:13:15.:13:20.

you can patch up the symptoms and slap people on the wrist. Get ahead

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of the game, all parties have always struggled with keeping pace

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on the regulation. Isn't this the moment to get ahead of these very

:13:30.:13:35.

ingenious traders and have a proper full independent inquiry. You know

:13:35.:13:40.

you will U-turn on it soon any way. Ed Balls designed the system,

:13:40.:13:43.

nothing would suit the Labour Party more than kicking it into the long

:13:43.:13:48.

grass, we need to make sure there is a proper inquiry, aks taken, we

:13:48.:13:54.

are the party reforming financial - - action is taken, we are the party

:13:54.:14:00.

reforming financial services. biggest psychological challenge of

:14:00.:14:04.

their careers, the police said, rioters said it was their

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opportunity for revenge. Nearly a year on from the riots that stormed

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England, we piece together the events of the few, extraordinary,

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terrifying days and ask what went wrong. We have been given access to

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130 interviews of police officers, many fear future budget cuts in

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England and Wales would hinder their ability to cope with anything

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of the kind again. Paul Lewis reports, there is strong language

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in this film. It was a war, and for the first

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time we were in control. They arrest people for no reason, they

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stop and check us for no reason. That was the best three days of my

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life. Six months ago we interviewed hundreds of rioters. Many of them

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described the disorder, like a war against the police. But what was it

:14:54.:14:58.

like for the officers who were lined up against them? For almost a

:14:58.:15:02.

year, we have been working with a team of academics at the London

:15:02.:15:06.

School of Economics, investigating exactly what happened during last

:15:06.:15:10.

summer's riots, and why. Our researchers have spoken to 130

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police officers, of every rank, deployed in London, Birmingham,

:15:15.:15:19.

Liverpool, Manchester and Salford. These are firsthand accounts, some

:15:19.:15:24.

of them anonymous, from the frontline of the biggest policing

:15:24.:15:33.

challenge in decades. As I walked up towards the crowd, I

:15:33.:15:37.

vividly remember locking eyes with a particular lady within the crowd,

:15:37.:15:44.

and she started to chant, "murderer, murderer", the crowd started to

:15:44.:15:49.

follow along and shouted murderer, murderer. Mark Duggan had been shot

:15:49.:15:54.

dead by police in Tottenham, two days earlier. Chief Inspector Ade

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Adelekan had to manage a peaceful protest outside the Police Station.

:15:57.:16:02.

He was in charge that day. He spoke to Duggan's fiance, friends and

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family. They wanted answers from the police in terms of what

:16:07.:16:11.

happened to Mark Duggan, one of the other concerns is they wanted a

:16:11.:16:16.

more senior officer to convey those messages to them. I found the

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temporary superintendant, and he made his way within the time span,

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which was an hour that I was allowed. Unfortunately the family

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decided that they had waited long enough, they started to walk away

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from us. I must be honest, as they started to walk away, you could

:16:30.:16:33.

literally see them in the background, that is when the wave

:16:33.:16:38.

of bottles, street furniture, and everything started to come in. It

:16:38.:16:46.

was explosive. The Duggan family had no part in

:16:46.:16:52.

the disorder that was breaking out. Adelekan called for back-up. The

:16:52.:16:56.

Met admits it should have arrived sooner. For two hours his officers

:16:56.:17:01.

were outnumbered and underequipped. They came under relentless attack.

:17:01.:17:07.

We are talking wheelie bin ones fire, bottles that had been gained

:17:07.:17:13.

from the off-licence, that had been set alight and made into firebombs

:17:13.:17:18.

and thrown at us. We are talking about a fridge freezer, pulled out

:17:18.:17:22.

from a shop and rolled towards us. I have never seen anything like it,

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and pray to God I never see anything like it again.

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As midnight approached, police from surrounding borrowings arrived in

:17:33.:17:38.

Tottenham. As we got closer, we could make up the silhouettes of

:17:38.:17:44.

rioters, the noise then started to increase dramatically.

:17:44.:17:52.

It was almost impossible to hear the radios. It is the most hostile,

:17:52.:17:56.

aggressive, crowd dynamic that I will ever come across in my entire

:17:56.:18:04.

experience as a police officer. As inspector Andre Ramsey led his

:18:04.:18:07.

officers -- Inspector Andre Ramsey led his officers on the first

:18:07.:18:10.

advance, he was knocked on conscious, this is him, shortly

:18:10.:18:14.

after the attack. I don't know what hit me, it was clearly something

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extremely heavy. Because it actually cracked my protective

:18:18.:18:23.

helmet. The next thing I remember is being hauled up back on to my

:18:23.:18:28.

feet, by two officers either side of me. I just shook my head, tried

:18:28.:18:32.

to regain my vision. I was conscious that we were so stretched

:18:32.:18:38.

on the ground, I just felt I had to keep going, even though I knew I

:18:38.:18:46.

had been concussed. My biggest fear was having a police

:18:46.:18:49.

officer separated, in that happened, I had absolutely no doubt there

:18:49.:18:56.

could have been loss of life. I assessed that it was a possibility

:18:56.:19:01.

that we might get shot at. Particularly if we were lured to

:19:01.:19:05.

far forward, and I also saw what appeared to be machetes, that was

:19:05.:19:11.

sending out a very clear message to me, that certainly, if anybody got

:19:11.:19:16.

separated, you know, it could all come to a very grizley end. One of

:19:16.:19:21.

the strong he is -- Grisly end. Unwft strongest findings in our

:19:21.:19:24.

research, is police officers feared they would be killed. Senior

:19:24.:19:32.

officers too were astonished that no police died. Despite these fears,

:19:32.:19:36.

in Tottenham, as elsewhere, police kept charging forward. We were

:19:36.:19:43.

coming under the heaviest bombardment of the whole night.

:19:43.:19:48.

Supermarket trolleys were being used by the rioters, to stock up

:19:48.:19:58.
:19:58.:19:59.

with bricks from a nearby building site. We got parallel with the

:19:59.:20:04.

Prince of Wales public house, I remember bottles exploding on a

:20:04.:20:08.

lampost near me and being showered with glass. We just did not have

:20:08.:20:12.

the vorss at that point in time to arrest -- resources at that point

:20:13.:20:16.

in time to arrest people. Our job was to protect our colleagues from

:20:16.:20:21.

the other emergency services so they could save life. It may have

:20:21.:20:24.

look today television camera that is police were standing back when

:20:24.:20:28.

they should have been making arrests. But officers we

:20:28.:20:32.

interviewed said their tactics were misunderstood. In fact, outnumbers,

:20:32.:20:37.

they said they were concentrating on what mattered most. We didn't

:20:37.:20:41.

stand back and watch Tottenham burn, as most people say, which hurts a

:20:41.:20:44.

great deal. We did everything we possibly could with the resources

:20:44.:20:49.

we had, to try to protect life as well as property. But at some point

:20:49.:20:52.

I had to make the difficult decision, it was life, it was

:20:52.:20:56.

always going to be life above property.

:20:56.:21:00.

Over the next 72 hours, as riots and looting spread across England,

:21:00.:21:04.

police faced a level of violence many said they had never seen

:21:04.:21:12.

before. My colleague screamed, I'm being attacked, and what had

:21:12.:21:15.

happened is this machete had just appeared through this hole in the

:21:15.:21:20.

window and had just started hacking at his hand. In Birmingham gangs

:21:20.:21:26.

fired at police, even taking aim at the force helicopter. In Liverpool,

:21:26.:21:31.

rioters fought vicious, hand-to- hand battles with police. It wasn't

:21:31.:21:34.

looting, if they wanted to loot they have a two-minute walk to the

:21:34.:21:38.

city centre, all the shops were there. It is simply a case is we

:21:38.:21:41.

want a scrap, the police are here, let as target the police and have a

:21:41.:21:47.

scrap with the police, let's get them. They ran us ragged. And while

:21:47.:21:51.

officers in Manchester focused on trying to stop looters in the city

:21:51.:21:56.

centre, in Salford they were overwhelmed and chased out. But it

:21:56.:22:00.

was in London where police were most underresourced. So desperate

:22:00.:22:06.

had they become, that some of the forces' least -- force's least

:22:06.:22:09.

experienced officers found themselves on the frontline. When

:22:09.:22:14.

it all kicked off, that was one of my first-ever shifts. As disorder

:22:14.:22:19.

broke out in Hackney, Michael Lewis was on his first day in uniform as

:22:19.:22:25.

a Special Constable, a volunteer role. I heard a colleague shout to

:22:25.:22:29.

me, get your baton out, I never had to use it before, this thing I had

:22:29.:22:35.

in training, even the small thing that could be quite default for an

:22:35.:22:45.

experienced officer, was very alien to me.

:22:45.:22:49.

Locking bankers. There was pockets of people, that were being very

:22:49.:22:55.

violent, once officers were there, we were the target.

:22:55.:23:00.

They had control at that point, and I think a lot of them knew that. It

:23:00.:23:07.

was venomous. That is what really got me, they don't know me, but

:23:07.:23:12.

when you are in that uniform, that's what it is directed at.

:23:12.:23:16.

We spoke to a number of police, who, like Lewis, found themselves on the

:23:16.:23:21.

frontline with no riot training, protective uniform, or shield.

:23:21.:23:24.

There was petrol bombs being thrown, there was a lorry that had tried to

:23:24.:23:28.

drive through the crowds but had got stopped and smashed up, that

:23:28.:23:33.

was carrying a load of wood. So that was just like a truck load of

:23:33.:23:42.

ammunition. I can remember seeing our car being trashed.

:23:42.:23:45.

I remember the radio, they said that they were watching a gang of

:23:46.:23:51.

them and they had broken into a hardware store. They were getting

:23:51.:23:56.

Stanley knives and things like that, and taping Stanley knives to wood

:23:56.:24:03.

to throw. It just makes you think, it is so prime evil, it sounds a

:24:03.:24:12.

bit weird, it was like the making spheres to throw at us.

:24:12.:24:17.

All I remember is seeing a brick come over the barricades, before I

:24:17.:24:21.

had even a chance to think this brick had split in two, bounced up

:24:21.:24:25.

and whacked me straight in the eye. Lewis was seen by a medic and told

:24:25.:24:32.

to go to hospital. He refused. knew that we were outnumbered, and

:24:32.:24:36.

there was not enough police officers there, and I'm thinking, I

:24:36.:24:41.

remember in my head thinking, all I have is a black eye and a bit of

:24:41.:24:46.

blood, I can still do this job. I don't needing to.

:24:47.:24:52.

He and a colleague were then posted outside a JD Sports that had been

:24:52.:24:55.

looted. There was people coming up taking photos, because I'm there

:24:55.:24:59.

and there is comments coming from the crowd, you have got injured and

:24:59.:25:03.

look at that, what happened to you. I remember they were taking photos,

:25:03.:25:07.

and inviting them to come over and have a picture with us. I'm there,

:25:07.:25:13.

arms round them, smiling, with a black eye. Having a photo that will

:25:13.:25:17.

probably go on their Facebook and be ridiculed for it, at that time

:25:17.:25:24.

that tactic was working for me. It softened this crowd that could have

:25:24.:25:33.

potentially got quite aggressive again. To be stood there again,

:25:33.:25:43.
:25:43.:25:43.

knowing what the potential is, that was what was really, really

:25:44.:25:50.

frightening. Just knowing that you are stood there, and you could

:25:50.:25:54.

potentially be severely injured or even worse, the unthinkable. You

:25:54.:26:00.

don't know what's going to happen, there's a gang of people there,

:26:00.:26:06.

there's more of them than there are of you. That's, that was petrifying,

:26:06.:26:10.

I hope I never have to feel that again.

:26:10.:26:15.

Disorder was spreading to almost every corner of London. The fires,

:26:15.:26:19.

looting and violent attacks on police were being watched on CCTV

:26:19.:26:22.

screens in a control room in Lambeth.

:26:22.:26:28.

It was off the scale. You know, in 28 years of policing, and 25 years

:26:28.:26:31.

of that involved with public order, I have never experienced it, I

:26:31.:26:36.

don't think the country has. Chief Superintendent Adrian Roberts was

:26:36.:26:42.

the Met's silver commander, the man in charge of tactics. He also ran

:26:42.:26:47.

the Met's review into its handling of the riots. The fact is we ran

:26:47.:26:51.

out of people. It almost became a lottery as to what time the

:26:51.:26:54.

disorder started in what particular borrowings too whether they would

:26:54.:27:00.

get the resources they would need to put it right. It was just soul

:27:00.:27:04.

destroying. Roberts was forced to watch intense fires sweep across

:27:04.:27:08.

Croydon. The firefighters needed police escorts. He told them, he

:27:08.:27:14.

had run out. I was brought up there, and married there. It is my town.

:27:14.:27:18.

Seeing my own borrowing then suffering in the way that it did,

:27:18.:27:25.

again, was quite hard to take. why had the Met run out of

:27:25.:27:29.

officers? Help was available, there is an emergency system to mobilise

:27:30.:27:34.

riot-trained officers from regional forces, a kind of SO SFOR police in

:27:34.:27:41.

times of crisis. -- SOS for police in times of crisis. Other forces

:27:41.:27:45.

used the system well, but the Met did not operate the call for help

:27:45.:27:48.

until Monday, the third and final day of rioting. If they put the

:27:48.:27:51.

resources in on the Sunday, it certainly wouldn't have spread over

:27:51.:27:55.

the rest of the country as it did. I don't think we did enough, or the

:27:55.:27:58.

Met did enough, I think the national mobileisation should have

:27:58.:28:02.

been put in place on the Sunday a lot quicker than it was. By the

:28:02.:28:05.

Monday afternoon, only 500 extra police from around the country had

:28:05.:28:10.

arrived in London. Some of them immediately encountered problems.

:28:10.:28:16.

We were sat in this car park there must have been 200, 300 police

:28:16.:28:20.

officers, we were constantly badgering our command Tories see

:28:20.:28:23.

what was going on. The Metropolitan Police -- commanders to see what

:28:23.:28:29.

was going on. The metropolitan police officers were accessing the

:28:30.:28:33.

radio constantly to see what was going on, the message was they

:28:33.:28:36.

couldn't access the radio channels operated in Hackney and Croydon.

:28:36.:28:40.

For that very reason we were not deployed there. That was the most

:28:40.:28:44.

frustrating thing that I will take from that night. Obviously we're

:28:44.:28:48.

all sat in the van, we are taking phone calls from our loved ones, we

:28:48.:28:52.

are watching it all live on television, Croydon's on fire, the

:28:52.:28:56.

police are under attack in Hackney, and we're sat in a car park, for

:28:56.:29:00.

the simple reason that we can't get on to the radio channel they are

:29:00.:29:03.

operating on. In this day and age I think that is laughable. It just

:29:04.:29:09.

meant that massive amount of resources had been mustered into

:29:09.:29:13.

the capital that day were bakesically useless and being sent

:29:13.:29:17.

to mean -- basically useless, and were being sent to meanal stuff

:29:17.:29:24.

when other areas were desperately in need of help. We didn't get to

:29:24.:29:29.

any places of disorder in time, it was shut the gates after the horse

:29:29.:29:34.

as bolted type of policing, go, go, go, but we never got anywhere.

:29:34.:29:37.

There was no direction, we never met the commanding officer, and we

:29:37.:29:41.

were in the dark. Those 200 officers would have been clearly

:29:41.:29:48.

better than what was already deployed there. We may have quelled

:29:48.:29:54.

it, it may not have got to the point where control was lost

:29:54.:29:57.

completely. There were complaints from several different forces, one

:29:57.:30:00.

officer told us nine vans of police from Thames Valley and Hampshire,

:30:00.:30:09.

were turned back from the Reeves furniture store in Croydon, he was

:30:09.:30:19.
:30:19.:30:20.

told because a Met Officer wanted a Met police force, so Croydon burned.

:30:20.:30:25.

A lot of people are saying that the officers weren't deployed to where

:30:25.:30:28.

they were needed because of the radio channel? I'm not aware of

:30:28.:30:32.

that. The work done in the long- term about the radios is being done

:30:32.:30:36.

elsewhere. On the night we weren't aware of it. The feedback we had

:30:36.:30:40.

was the airwave, the national system we used worked very well, it

:30:40.:30:45.

was the one thing that did work very well for us. It is true, that

:30:45.:30:50.

as a force, we have not had an awful lot of experience of bringing

:30:50.:30:54.

in such large numbers from outside forces, normally it is the other

:30:54.:30:58.

way round. There is lessons we can and have learned from that whole

:30:58.:31:02.

mutual aid deployment bit. I can assure if you I had known cops were

:31:02.:31:06.

sitting in car park, they would have been deployed pretty quickly.

:31:06.:31:11.

To be clear, what they are saying is they weren't able to access the

:31:11.:31:14.

Met channel, and as a result they couldn't be deployed on the

:31:14.:31:16.

frontline? I don't know the answer to that particular question around

:31:16.:31:20.

the radio channels, it certainly isn't something that has been fed

:31:20.:31:27.

back to me through the review. All the mutual aid officers were

:31:27.:31:31.

interviewed. By the Tuesday, most of the officers from outside London

:31:31.:31:36.

had arrived. They helped bolster a huge show of force, 16,000 police

:31:36.:31:43.

were deployed on the capital's streets. When you had the 16,000

:31:43.:31:47.

officers in place on the Tuesday, there was no rioting in London so I

:31:47.:31:51.

guess the question is, would it have been possible to have those

:31:51.:31:54.

16,000 officers deployed on the Monday? It may have been, it is

:31:54.:31:57.

hard to say it may have been the deterrent that there were 16 though

:31:57.:32:02.

cops so people didn't come out to cause cim -- 16,000 cops to people

:32:02.:32:05.

didn't come out to cause the criminality that they Z we didn't

:32:05.:32:09.

have the large gatherings that we did the previous night. It wasn't

:32:09.:32:12.

that it was there and we were able to deal with it, it didn't actually

:32:12.:32:16.

transgress in front of us. Could we have got the 16,000 out before. If

:32:16.:32:20.

we had the Monday night happen the day before, maybe we would have

:32:20.:32:24.

done. But, there was nothing to suggest that we needed that many

:32:24.:32:28.

officers on that particular night, leading into it.

:32:28.:32:32.

But the intelligence forecasting the scale of riots did exist, much

:32:32.:32:38.

of it was on social media. Police told us that sorting fact from

:32:38.:32:43.

fiction on Facebook and Twitter was one of their biggest challenges.

:32:43.:32:46.

struggled in August, because we didn't have enough trained people,

:32:46.:32:52.

we didn't have the right IT to be able to search the social media.

:32:52.:32:55.

Never before have we had to. Although there is lots of things we

:32:55.:32:57.

have done differently have changed and are doing differently, as a

:32:57.:33:01.

result of what we have learned from the experiences in August, that is

:33:01.:33:05.

the one we really need to really get a grip of. If police struggled

:33:05.:33:09.

during the riots, because they did not have enough officers on the

:33:09.:33:14.

ground, how do they feel about the future? I don't think we did bad by

:33:14.:33:16.

any stretch of the imagination compared to some. I think the cuts

:33:16.:33:20.

that are coming in, will only make things worse, you are looking at

:33:20.:33:23.

less people trained to deal with public order situations. We

:33:23.:33:26.

probably would struggle to do that again, and cope with that level of

:33:26.:33:31.

violence n my opinion. They say it is not affecting frontline police

:33:31.:33:35.

officers, it is. We will be 16,000 police officers less in 12 months

:33:35.:33:39.

time. So the next time we have disorder on that scale, Theresa May

:33:39.:33:42.

can whistle as long as she likes, she will not get that number of

:33:43.:33:46.

staff. I think it will happen again, I have no doubt it will happen

:33:46.:33:49.

again. We have now spoken to hundreds of rioters and police

:33:49.:33:54.

involved in last summer's disorder, many describe the experience as sur

:33:54.:34:00.

role. Some said life had returned to normal, as if the riots had

:34:00.:34:05.

never happened, but others, cannot forget.

:34:05.:34:12.

I think about it. I almost think about it every day. You know, I

:34:12.:34:21.

have said this to my family, it is difficult to live with, really. One

:34:21.:34:26.

has to question one's self, could I have done anything differently? I

:34:26.:34:29.

still every day think about could I have done stuff differently, what

:34:29.:34:33.

could we have done as a service differently. I very much doubt I

:34:33.:34:38.

have put it to bed, but that's life i suppose.

:34:38.:34:43.

That report was by Paul Lewis, here in the studio now, one of the

:34:43.:34:47.

rioters, Aston Walker, given a jail sentence for theft. The Assistant

:34:47.:34:54.

Commissioner of the Met, and the policing minister, and the MP for

:34:54.:35:01.

Tottenham, and Pauline Pierce, known as the "her win for Hackney

:35:01.:35:04.

after the riots. Do you ask yourself the same

:35:04.:35:07.

question at the end of the report, what could have been done

:35:07.:35:10.

differently? Of course, any organisation that's faced something

:35:10.:35:14.

it has never seen before, would be foolish to say it couldn't do

:35:14.:35:18.

things differently and learn things. I think the thing that comes out

:35:18.:35:22.

most from the report, that should be emphasised, the bravery of the

:35:22.:35:24.

officers involved. People prepared to work all hours, put themselves

:35:24.:35:28.

at risk to protect the public and their colleagues. The agonising of

:35:28.:35:31.

the officers in command, trying to use limited ri sources to best

:35:31.:35:37.

affect, to pro-- limited resources to best effect to preserve life. In

:35:37.:35:40.

the aftermath last summer it was not talked about it and it is right

:35:40.:35:44.

those officers are recognised. In terms of what we do differently,

:35:44.:35:50.

the speed and the number we mobilised. The deployment? There

:35:50.:35:54.

was something saying about fewer officers in the future, that is not

:35:54.:36:00.

true in London. We have trained 1,750 more officers in public order

:36:00.:36:03.

skills. You didn't deploy enough people in the places you needed

:36:03.:36:07.

them, that is the point? People made judgment calls at the time, in

:36:07.:36:10.

hindsight we should have deployed more and more quickly. You talk

:36:10.:36:14.

about the bravery, we also heard the frustration of those guys who

:36:14.:36:19.

were sitting, fully trained, riot officers, sitting in a police, in

:36:19.:36:26.

car park, and they said, Croydon's on fire, we're stuck in a car park.

:36:26.:36:29.

It's unfortunate they said that anonymously, the reviews we did,

:36:29.:36:32.

didn't pick thank you very much. We picked up some issues of the radio,

:36:32.:36:36.

we have never called in the Metaphor Mutual Aid on such a grand

:36:36.:36:40.

scale before, we did it this time and we have learned more about how

:36:40.:36:45.

to make it work. Your report didn't bring up the fact that they were on

:36:45.:36:47.

a completely different radio controlled wave, which meant they

:36:48.:36:53.

couldn't hear the rest of the Met. We spoke to many of the officers on

:36:53.:36:56.

Mutual Aid, and that didn't come back to us. There were officers

:36:56.:36:59.

come back from neighbouring forces on the Sunday morning on the second

:36:59.:37:02.

day. That the Met didn't use because they weren't part of the

:37:03.:37:05.

Met? They were used. They were coming in from the day after on the

:37:06.:37:09.

Sunday morning. The report implies that Mutual Aid was not sought

:37:09.:37:13.

until Monday. Not the national mobilisation until Monday?

:37:13.:37:18.

started sensibly with neighbouring forces in the immediate Saturday

:37:18.:37:21.

night as it developed, going to Sunday morning, we went to

:37:21.:37:25.

neighbouring forces and on Monday morning it was nationwide. If you

:37:25.:37:32.

had called it on Monday you could have avoited a while day of -- oh

:37:32.:37:37.

aye what's that then voided a whole day of rioting? It is easy to say

:37:37.:37:40.

that. People made calls at the time, starting to escalate the resources

:37:40.:37:44.

during two or three days. You had those warnings, you heard in the

:37:44.:37:47.

report, people could see the scale that was going to emerge, it was

:37:47.:37:51.

too late? You say that now, in hindsight, that wasn't how it

:37:51.:37:55.

looked at the time. I come back to, officers at the time made the best

:37:55.:37:58.

decisions they could do. Any organisation will look back and say

:37:58.:38:03.

we could do things differently, we have more officers trained, our

:38:03.:38:09.

mobilisation plans mean we can go quickly, we have better systems to

:38:09.:38:15.

look at social media. You arrived on the scenes of the riots, co-s

:38:15.:38:18.

incidently, can you sympathise with -- coincidently, can you sympathise

:38:18.:38:24.

with what you are hearing here? sadly for me what I saw firsthand,

:38:24.:38:30.

there was no effort being made. At one point there was 400, 500

:38:30.:38:34.

rioters here, there was me and about 60 police behind me. And I

:38:34.:38:40.

was giving it what for, and that was not the clip that was, that

:38:40.:38:45.

became famous to people. This was a young man who was being attacked

:38:45.:38:49.

because he took a picture. They charged after him, and they were

:38:49.:38:53.

going for him. You know, I was the one, and a couple of other young

:38:53.:38:57.

lads came along and helped me, and some friends of mine, who helped me

:38:57.:39:01.

to get the crowd back and leave the man alone. And then I gave them

:39:01.:39:05.

what for. But the police, they literally, I mean people say it

:39:05.:39:11.

wasn't what it looked like, but it was. They did nothing.

:39:11.:39:16.

Cars were on fireworks there was no ambulances, there was no fire

:39:16.:39:20.

brigades -- on fire, there was no ambulances, there was no fire

:39:20.:39:25.

brigades, at one point I was pushed into a burning car, my behind was

:39:25.:39:31.

stuck in a car, real Tom and Jerry legs and arms hanging out. If it

:39:31.:39:34.

wasn't for my friends pulling me out, there was no help from the

:39:34.:39:39.

police. You saw that young white guy who had never been in uniform,

:39:39.:39:45.

he was right at the front, he was hit in the eye? For me, personally,

:39:45.:39:51.

I do sympathise to a degree, because it is a hard job that they

:39:51.:39:56.

have. The police do need to be, have a pat on the back for the hard

:39:56.:40:00.

work that they Diamonds Will Do, correctly. But, having said that,

:40:00.:40:05.

it is a job that you chose, you knew the dangers involved, every

:40:05.:40:08.

policeman knows every day they go out there there is a challenge,

:40:08.:40:11.

there is a gun in your face, a knife in your face. You just don't

:40:11.:40:17.

know. So you have taken on a job to protect people. Your response to

:40:17.:40:21.

that? I think she's right in terms of what officers face on daily

:40:21.:40:27.

basis, certainly. I recognise that people are frustrated, communities

:40:27.:40:30.

saw shops looted and the police didn't have enough resource ones

:40:30.:40:34.

the ground to deal with it. I come back to the -- resources on the

:40:34.:40:38.

ground to deal with it. I come back to the film, the officers did all

:40:38.:40:41.

they comfortable we have trained more and more ready for this summer.

:40:41.:40:45.

You were one of the rioters, you described previously the Met as the

:40:45.:40:48.

face of white privilege, your words, having seen that film does it make

:40:48.:40:53.

you think twice about what you did? I actually looted at 5.00am, I

:40:53.:40:59.

wasn't part of the mob rioting. It would be slightly disingenious of

:40:59.:41:04.

me to talk about being part of. That obviously clearly they are

:41:04.:41:10.

doing a very dangerous job, the police, on the frontline. If you

:41:10.:41:15.

had seen more people you wouldn't have done what you had done? Well,

:41:15.:41:23.

possibly, I went out there with the intention to film what had happened

:41:23.:41:29.

You weren't politically motivated? Not at all. No. Even though,

:41:29.:41:39.
:41:39.:41:39.

obviously a month prior to that I had been on a march for Kingsley

:41:39.:41:44.

Burell killed in police custody. I do a lot of works, I'm ware of the

:41:44.:41:48.

issues of black youth being killed in police custody. You heard in

:41:48.:41:51.

that film, officers, saying they fear the whole thing could happen

:41:51.:41:55.

again, and with imminent cuts, they wouldn't be able to protect the

:41:55.:42:01.

public, or themselves? I disagree about that. There will still be a

:42:01.:42:04.

very large number of police officers available. There are the

:42:04.:42:09.

same number of police officers who are actually trained to deal with

:42:09.:42:14.

riot situations. In fact, as the Assistant Commissioner said, the

:42:14.:42:19.

number has been increased in London. We know that the reductions in

:42:19.:42:25.

police work force, that the inspectorate has talked about today,

:42:25.:42:29.

the inspectorate had been made mainly, not exclusively, mainly in

:42:29.:42:33.

the back room positions, there has been a reduction. But the inspector

:42:33.:42:37.

also said the frontline had been protected but not preserved. It is

:42:37.:42:42.

not protected, there will be a reduction in 6%, we will see nearly

:42:42.:42:46.

6,000 fewer officers on the frontline by 2015? Just to remind

:42:46.:42:50.

people that is 130,000 officers in total. They are already struggling

:42:50.:42:53.

at the moment, you are going to cut that number? I think you are

:42:53.:42:56.

drawing the wrong conclusion. The conclusion surely is. Not my

:42:56.:43:00.

conclusion, you heard from serving officers part of the riots last

:43:00.:43:03.

summer, these are their concerns? When it reported on this towards

:43:03.:43:06.

the end of last year, the point was made, it was about deployment and

:43:06.:43:10.

the speed of deployment. It is not about the total number. It was his

:43:10.:43:17.

fault? It was the Met's fault? -- It was the Met's fault? We will

:43:17.:43:22.

still have far more police officers that we had in the 1980 and the

:43:22.:43:27.

1990. I think there is a collective agreement, and the Assistant

:43:27.:43:29.

Commissioner and the inspectorate said, and other Chief Constables

:43:29.:43:32.

said, that there are lessons to be learned about the speed of

:43:32.:43:35.

deployment. I don't think can you draw the conclusion that because

:43:35.:43:40.

there is what is a -- you can draw the conclusion that because there

:43:40.:43:45.

is what is a relative reduction in the frontline numbers, 6%, but 94%

:43:45.:43:49.

are remaining, that what that means is there won't be adequate

:43:49.:43:53.

resources to deal with these situations, there will still be

:43:53.:43:57.

substantial resources to deal with these issues. We have eye-watering

:43:57.:44:01.

cuts to deal with, more to do we are determined to do everything we

:44:01.:44:06.

can to protect the public. We will try to maintain increased public

:44:06.:44:11.

order officers in the frontline, it will be challenge but we will do it

:44:11.:44:16.

because the public deserve it. you think numbers matter? It took

:44:16.:44:20.

16,000 officers to bring order back to London and we are losing 16,000

:44:20.:44:26.

officers across the Met. I think it is patently obvious numbers make a

:44:26.:44:28.

difference. Right across the country people said where are the

:44:28.:44:33.

police. If you were standing in the Carpet Right building, half a mile

:44:33.:44:36.

from the Police Station where the riot started in Tottenham. Watching

:44:37.:44:40.

flames and youths progressing down Tottenham High Road, with your

:44:40.:44:43.

children around you, in your night dress, those people want to know

:44:43.:44:47.

where the police were. They watched their homes burn down, and they let

:44:47.:44:51.

themselves out. No fire brigade. They let themselves out of the

:44:51.:44:55.

building. It is complacent to suggest with safer neighbourhood

:44:55.:45:00.

teams cuts w transport police cut, with 999 units cut now in the Met,

:45:00.:45:03.

that there is not a problem with police numbers. It is a serious

:45:04.:45:07.

issue, I'm afraid everybody knows that the issues behind these riots

:45:07.:45:10.

have not been dealt with, so we will see further unrest, and not

:45:10.:45:15.

the numbers to deal with it. That is not what is happening in

:45:15.:45:19.

London. We don't know what is happening with the Met? I can tell

:45:19.:45:22.

you where we are. We are not cutting neighbourhood schemes or

:45:22.:45:27.

response teams. Why did it take to five days to bring that order.

:45:27.:45:30.

is the point, this disorder happened last year, where there

:45:30.:45:35.

were a near record number of police officers in this country. A bigger

:45:35.:45:38.

police work force overall than we have ever seen, it had just come

:45:38.:45:42.

off its peak. So quite clearly it can't be about numbers. It was

:45:42.:45:48.

about how those numbers were deployed. The reduction that there

:45:48.:45:52.

has been that you claim of 16,000, most of those, but not all, have

:45:52.:45:55.

not come from the frontline. Because actually when we came to

:45:55.:45:58.

power we discovered there was something like 25,000 officers who

:45:58.:46:03.

were in back room positions. So the police will have ample resources to

:46:03.:46:07.

deal with this kind of situation. You say ample, it is disengineous

:46:07.:46:12.

to say there won't be frontline cuts in the Met. Sorry, I just said

:46:12.:46:17.

that there are going to be reductions in overall numbers, but

:46:17.:46:20.

the independent inspectorate report. So frontline numbers in the Met?

:46:20.:46:26.

The inspect -- independent inspectorate report said today that

:46:26.:46:30.

the frontline policing is protected and preserved. It also said the

:46:30.:46:33.

response times were being protected. It said public confidence was

:46:33.:46:38.

rising. Jew haven't answered my question, why did it take four to

:46:38.:46:43.

five days to do it, why couldn't you do in the first what you did in

:46:43.:46:46.

the last. Get all these police up to Tottenham and get it nipped in

:46:46.:46:52.

the bud instantly. It took five days before any that have was done.

:46:52.:46:55.

You are saying it is deployment? That is what the independent review

:46:55.:46:59.

said. Pauline it is the nail on the head, you look back in hindsight,

:46:59.:47:02.

clearly it would have been better to deploy more people more quickly

:47:02.:47:07.

people at the time made a judgment who would predict there would be

:47:08.:47:12.

mass copycats, criminal looting across multiple places in London

:47:12.:47:16.

and across the country. Do you think it could have been contained

:47:16.:47:19.

in Tottenham if it was taken more seriously at the beginning? In the

:47:20.:47:24.

first night in Tottenham, whilst there was rioting on the high road,

:47:24.:47:27.

Wood Green shopping centre ransacked, the Tottenham retail

:47:27.:47:32.

park, ransacked. We saw that night a pattern that would happen on

:47:33.:47:35.

subsequent nights, not just in London but across the country. I

:47:35.:47:38.

think it could have been dealt with, it should have been, from the first

:47:38.:47:42.

time we saw the cars burning on Tottenham High Road. Thank you very

:47:42.:47:45.

much for coming in. That's all from Newsnight tonight, I will be back

:47:45.:47:55.
:47:55.:47:57.

tomorrow, plenty more then, good night.

:47:57.:48:00.

I wish I could offer you a ray of I wish I could offer you a ray of

:48:00.:48:05.

hope. For the rest of the week it is further unsettled spells.

:48:05.:48:08.

Brighter start to the day across Northern Ireland and Scotland.

:48:08.:48:11.

Showers developing here, and further south across the country,

:48:11.:48:17.

more generally cloudy with some wet weather spreading up across

:48:17.:48:21.

southern England. For Wimbledon, although we got away with it for

:48:21.:48:25.

late afternoon today, that might be the case tomorrow. Soggy across

:48:25.:48:27.

parts of the West Country, if you are on holiday across the south

:48:28.:48:32.

west of England, good luck. You won't see inch the way of sunshine.

:48:32.:48:37.

Misty around the coasts and hills. For Wales wet weather at times,

:48:37.:48:41.

particularly towards more south western areas. Northern Ireland

:48:41.:48:46.

seeing dryer spells, not a washout here. Temperatures in the mid-teens.

:48:46.:48:49.

Scotland holding on to sunshine. A few sharp showers around, but in

:48:49.:48:53.

the brighter spells, fairly light winds, shouldn't feel so bad.

:48:53.:48:58.

Further ahead into Wednesday, more showers on the menu, some brighter

:48:58.:49:02.

spells, lifting those temperature noose the high teens, possibly low

:49:02.:49:07.

20s, but the threat of further downpours possible, through the

:49:07.:49:11.

second half of this week. No sign of any prolonged settled sunny

:49:11.:49:15.

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