04/07/2012 Newsnight


04/07/2012

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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More and more of us are living longer and longer, some one has to

:00:12.:00:18.

pay for T I mean I have lived in my house for 30 years. I can't bear

:00:18.:00:25.

the thought of losing it. But, I'm going to have to. Should we expect

:00:25.:00:29.

older people to look after themselves, or is it the duty of

:00:29.:00:34.

younger tax-payers to support more and more pensioners? Between them,

:00:34.:00:40.

these people have lived almost 1100 years. They face the minister, a

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spring chicken at 56, a chit of a policy wonk, whose taxes support

:00:46.:00:51.

them. And a man who embarked on a new career hosting countdown at the

:00:51.:00:56.

age of 67. We test drive a mobility scooter. It is a bit slow, can I

:00:56.:01:06.

make it go faster. The boss of Barclays faces angry MPs. With

:01:06.:01:09.

respect, for the third time, what month did you discover the low-

:01:09.:01:14.

balling was going on, give me date. This month. As late as this month.

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And lives to tell the tale. Who can find out precisely who was

:01:20.:01:23.

in on the scam? And the minister's also going to

:01:23.:01:33.
:01:33.:01:34.

tell us why he finds this formula intoxicating.

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The days of our years are three score years and ten, the Pamist

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tells us. Except, they are increasingly more than, that and

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some how it all has to be paid for. Sooner or later, and it is already

:01:47.:01:50.

much later than they told us it would be, the Government will have

:01:50.:01:56.

to come up with some ideas. Why should old people expected to pay

:01:56.:02:00.

for themselves, why should young people work to care for them. Why

:02:00.:02:04.

should relatives bail out the taxpayer by unpaid caring. What is

:02:04.:02:11.

the point of extreme old age, any way. To get some clues, I have been

:02:11.:02:19.

in Christchurch Dorset. Welcome to the town that turned

:02:19.:02:21.

grey. There are plenty of wore places to

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see out your days, and out of every three people in Christchurch, one

:02:27.:02:31.

is already over 65. It is the highest proportion in Britain, and

:02:31.:02:41.
:02:41.:02:44.

it is growing. People with a past are Britain's future. The high

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street has changed, the present customers don't come for board

:02:48.:02:51.

shorts, but they still like a bit of sparkle. They still like to

:02:51.:02:56.

motor with the roof down. There isn't a roof, and the top speed is

:02:56.:03:02.

eight miles an hour. Indicators, brake lights, suspension, there is

:03:02.:03:08.

even a clock, a temperature gauge. Go-faster-stripes on them or

:03:08.:03:14.

anything like that? No, no-go- faster-stripes! Spoilers. Have you

:03:14.:03:18.

had cases of old people racing each other in them. Do you need a

:03:18.:03:23.

license to drive them? There is no legal requirement for a license.

:03:23.:03:27.

How do you know you are not setting it to a hooligan old person. It is

:03:27.:03:37.
:03:37.:03:39.

slow, can I make it go faster. Oh! Whoops! Ha ha! I wouldn't trust me

:03:39.:03:44.

on one of these. It is not very interesting as a

:03:44.:03:54.
:03:54.:03:59.

ride. It would make a difference if Over 85s are the fastest-growing

:04:00.:04:03.

sector of Britain's population. It is reckoned most of us can expect

:04:03.:04:07.

to have to care for an old person at some time in our lives. Looking

:04:07.:04:11.

after people who a generation or two would have been dead k dominate

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people's lives. At the very point when they might have been expecting

:04:14.:04:22.

to put their feet up. Mary is 60, when she was born, her mother, Rose,

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did everything for her. Mary grew up and looked after herself, her

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mother is now 89, and in the grip of dementia, and now Mary does

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everything for her mother. What would happen to your mother if you

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weren't there to look after her? She would probably have to go into

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a home. Do you resent her? You would lead a different life if you

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weren't caring for your mum? Yes, I do sometimes, there is no doubt

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about that. Then I feel really guilty, when I look at her at times.

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She doesn't really want to be like this. Had she to look at herself

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when she was 60, say, and think, that's what I'm going to become,

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she would be horrified. You are in that position, you are about 60?

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Yes, I'm 60. You look at your mother and you can see the future?

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That is terrifying to me. Unpaid carers save the taxpayer hundreds

:05:22.:05:26.

of millions each year. But not enough. When the proportion of old

:05:27.:05:36.

people gets this high, it becomes unsustainable. In the high cliff

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area of Christchurch, seven out of ten people are over 60. The Local

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Government Association is warning that within 20 years tax-payers

:05:47.:05:51.

will have to find another �12 billion a year to look after the

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elderly. Already councils are struggling. Dorset County Council

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says it spends 44% of its budget on adult social care, which means cuts

:06:00.:06:05.

elsewhere. It means if we are taking up more

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and more of the expenditure of the county against a smaller budget,

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there is less available for other services across the county as well.

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Either you spend the money on old people or something else. The

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problem here is worse than in most places, isn't it? Yes, because of

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our demographic. We have a large proportion of older people wrecks

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attract people who retire here, a beautiful place to be. They retire

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very independent, and haven't thought through the costs of their

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care, as they become less independent in perhaps 20 years

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from the time they retire. There is an alternative. Dorset

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County Council only runs one of the care homes in town. There are

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another 10 residential or nursing homes. They are private enterprise,

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and they don't come cheap. At lunch they get a choice of food,

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and a glass of sherry. The average age of the residents is 85, and no-

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one stays longer than four years. This place, I think, is absolutely

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wonderful. How long have you been here? I have been here nearly a

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year. I have been here a few weeks. Do you like it? Yeah, it is very

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good. I haven't a clue what I pay, the family deal with it. I can tell

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you it is a lot of money, it is averageing out at �1,000 a week.

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Sorry? Didn't you know that. didn't know that. What happens

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really now is that my pension just about balances what I have to pay

:07:43.:07:52.

here. Ken is lucky, death is a certainty for all of us, but not

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extreme old age. Jill Park was a fitness instructor for 30 years, at

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70 she was diagnosed with what turned out to be terminal cancer.

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Who would have thought with my life I would have ended up like this. It

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is the last thing I would have dreamt of. My house obviously will

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have to be sold. The proceeds of that house will go to pay my keep

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here. Which is, again, not what I planned. I have lived in my house

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for 30 years. I can't bear the thought of losing it.

:08:32.:08:42.
:08:42.:08:43.

But, I'm going to have to. They used to say that life is what

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happens while Urbisy making other plans. So too is death. If we

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cannot or will not provide for ourselves, -- while you are busy

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making plans, so it death. If we can't or will not provide for

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ourselves who will while we face our ever lengthening days.

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When we talk to our guests, and put their concerns to the minister. It

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is time to look at the statistics, stark, heading our way, all with

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enormous price tags. Allegra Stratton presents them.

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They have never had it so good. The 60s generation, who didn't pay

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to go to university, and who bought their own homes when they were

:09:36.:09:43.

cheap. Now they are paying very low interest rates on those homes, that

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is if they haven't paid off their mortgages already. Equity, thought

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to be tied up in their properties, is valued at around a trillion

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pounds. And then, when they retire, they will be last to retire on

:09:56.:10:00.

final salary pensions. Of this Government's combined tax and

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benefit changes, pensioners have lost less on average than either

:10:04.:10:08.

working-age families with children, or those without. Mrs Morris can

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only afford to heat one room, she's confined to a makeshift bed. It was

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not always like this. Benefits like the Winter Fuel Allowance, were

:10:17.:10:21.

brought in to tackle serious pensioner poverty. I can't afford

:10:21.:10:27.

to have it on all the time. In the 1980s and 1990s, reaching old age

:10:27.:10:33.

had often meant penry, that is not the case now. Frrb figures looking

:10:33.:10:37.

at income distribution, shows pensioner poverty at the lowest

:10:37.:10:41.

level since 1984. But poverty for working-age households without

:10:41.:10:50.

children is similar levels to those in the 1970s. While we are

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associate somewhere like Carnaby Street with young people,

:10:53.:10:56.

frittering away their salary, research during this recession has

:10:56.:11:01.

found it is the over 65s who have carried on spending, younger

:11:01.:11:06.

households have cut back. If you were born between 1980 and 1990,

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you don't need me to tell you you are facing a raw deal. Graduate

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unemployment is running as high as 20%. People wait until 40 years old

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to get their first house, if you are lucky enough to save for a

:11:18.:11:22.

deposit, the chances are these banks won't give awe mortgage. Why

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can't this Government do something about it? While Labour's vote is

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spread across the generation, the Tories peak with older supporters,

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because they are more likely to vote, their effect for the Tories

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is what pollsters describe typically as a double whammy. In

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the last election the over 65s formed 40% of the turnout in 102

:11:45.:11:47.

constituencies. But Ian Duncan Smith believes the Conservatives

:11:47.:11:51.

have to pledge change at the next election, he believes they have to

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go into 2015 pledge to go scrap universal benefits for all but the

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poorest pensioners. It might not sound like a vote-winner, but it

:11:59.:12:03.

shouldn't be a vote-loser, senior Conservatives don't think that

:12:03.:12:13.
:12:13.:12:17.

Labour can go against that. There are shades of grey to this debate,

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pensions are seeing meagre returns. But sources indicate after the next

:12:21.:12:26.

election they will ask more of this grou. Baby-boomers may never again

:12:26.:12:31.

have it so good. The Government minister, Willets, is here to ask

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questions from our audience, who range in age from 60-91. Nick Hewer,

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from The Apprentice, has just finished making a film about old

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people. And our token young person tonight is Ruth Porter from the

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Institute of Economic Affairs. Let's start with you Ruth, do you

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think there are benefits and entitlements that older people

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should give up? I think there are. We are in extremely difficult

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situation at the moment. We have got a situation where we have

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promised our old age provision on taxpayer subsidies, we can't afford

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that any more. We need to look at moving to situation where people

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fund their old age more and more through direct payments. It will be

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a long transition, but one we need to make. We have had successive

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Governments who have stood up at election time, successive parties,

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and they have promised reckless spending they couldn't afford. At

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the next election, it is not going to be credible for people to stand

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up and say we can still afford to give Winter Fuel Allowance to

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millionaires. Do you think that you should and can give up some

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entitlements, can't you? No, we cannot give up any entitlements. As

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workers, when we were working, we paid into the tax system. We paid

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into the tax system, we supported our families, we made a

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contribution to the society, to our families and friends. You think it

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is an entitlement which has to be honoured, indefinitely? Yes,

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indefinitely. I do not think that having worked as long as we have,

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having made a contribution, and we are still making a contribution, we

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still making a contribution to the country, through taxation, pensions

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are taxed. Through voluntary work that we do, through our care that

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we gave to our families, our friends, our spouses, and our

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spending power. We are putting money into the economy. Do you

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think there is any entitlements that old people have that they

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should give up? None at all. Once do you that, you're actually asking

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people to give up, and turning around the Government saying, there

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are rich people, or well-off pensioners. As far as I'm concerned

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no pensioner is well-off, what they have worked for, they have worked

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for all their life, all their working life. To get something back.

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And remember, what they put in, they are not asking for hand-outs.

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Means testing was what this Government and other Governments

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want to put forward, straight away, if you start taking away from this,

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remember, 11 million old age pensioners, by the year 2020 it

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will be 14 million. One in ten votes will go up the creek for any

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party coming into power. Let's leave aside the blackmail argument!

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Let's stick with the moral one for now. What do you think about

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universal benefit, entitlement for every person over the age of 60, or

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whatever it is, to get free transport, or Winter Fuel Allowance,

:15:39.:15:44.

that sort of thing? Well, the most important contributing benefit, of

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course, is the basic state pension. Everybody understands how that

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carries on. We made a clear commitment in our manifesto, on

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these other special payments, to keep those. We are going to stick

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by that pledge. More widely, I think older people do make a

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contribution, the question is getting the balance exactly right.

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One form of contribution older people make, of course, is many

:16:05.:16:09.

pass on money to children and grandchildren. There has been one

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calculation that pensioners already provide more cash to grandchildren

:16:12.:16:17.

than the total value of child benefit. So there are all these

:16:17.:16:19.

types of exchanges between the generations that already happen,

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and a good thing too. Is there anyone here think there are some

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things they are entitled to that they could give up, you do Sir?

:16:28.:16:35.

much more ambivalent about some of the flat-rate benefits. Frankly,

:16:35.:16:40.

even though I'm basic rate taxpayer, since I took early retirement, I

:16:40.:16:45.

can afford transport cost, I don't need a free bus pass, I could also

:16:45.:16:48.

do without the Winter Fuel Allowance. I would want something

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in exchange, I would want some incentive that would allow me to do

:16:54.:16:58.

part-time work, and contribute tax in that way. That would be a fairer

:16:58.:17:05.

system than flat-rate benefit. Do you have a Freedom Pass? What is

:17:05.:17:10.

that? The free transport? No. it absurd that someone like, or

:17:10.:17:15.

someone like me, is offered such a thing? I think those that really

:17:15.:17:20.

don't need it can well afford to do without it, should just not take it.

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Absolutely. Go on? Can I say something. Yes. I think that those

:17:30.:17:35.

benefits should be liable for tax. Now, if you are at the lower end of

:17:35.:17:41.

the spectrum, existing on �107.45 a week, you have enough tax allowance

:17:41.:17:46.

to cover that, you would still get those benefits in full, if you are

:17:46.:17:49.

at the higher end of the tax allowance, it would probably be all

:17:49.:17:53.

swallowed up in tax. So that would be the fairest way. If you are

:17:53.:17:56.

going to look at every pensioner and see whether they are rich or

:17:56.:18:00.

poor, you are going to have to employ an army of civil servants to

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sort it out. Which is going to cost a lot more any way. That, to me,

:18:06.:18:10.

would be the fairest means, and if it meant I have to pay a bit more,

:18:10.:18:13.

I get an extra pension, I get a police pension. If it means I have

:18:13.:18:18.

to pay a bit more, and my fellow pensioners are not stuck indoors,

:18:19.:18:21.

on tranquillisers, because they haven't got a Freedom Pass, I'm

:18:21.:18:26.

more than happy to pay it. Can you guarantee that everyone who is

:18:27.:18:29.

currently entitled to a Freedom Pass will continue to remain

:18:29.:18:34.

entitled to it? We made a clear set of commitments in our manifesto,

:18:34.:18:38.

and we are going to stick to those. We have also already done things

:18:39.:18:42.

that have tried to ensure fairness between generations. Nobody has yet

:18:42.:18:45.

mentioned the fact that we are speeding up the increase in the

:18:45.:18:48.

pension age. So the age that you have to reach before you start

:18:48.:18:51.

collecting your pension. That has gone up. That is after the next

:18:51.:18:55.

election, isn't it? We are speeding up that process. That, I think

:18:55.:18:59.

people have by and large accepted it. Although it was controversial,

:18:59.:19:02.

I think the Chancellor was absolutely right to say we should

:19:02.:19:05.

have all the same income tax allowance. He has brought up the

:19:05.:19:09.

income tax allowance for people who aren't of pension age. We are

:19:09.:19:14.

trying to get this balance right. But it is tricky, in the process we

:19:14.:19:18.

have got to honour the pledges we have made. We will do that.

:19:18.:19:22.

Not only do people have to wait longer, for their pensions, they

:19:22.:19:26.

have to pay more into it. So there is a double jeopardy there. And

:19:26.:19:33.

also, if I might take you back to your introduction, when you said

:19:33.:19:37.

that should younger people work to pay income tax to keep older people

:19:37.:19:41.

going? We paid income tax when we were at work, what's happened to

:19:41.:19:47.

that money? We took care of the pensioners when we were at work.

:19:47.:19:52.

There were fewer of them, you are all living too long? At what age

:19:52.:19:56.

would you like us to lay down and die. Successive Governments have

:19:56.:20:00.

been mooting this. Do you accept it is a growing cohort of people?

:20:00.:20:04.

may be the case, but we're still paying income tax. We are

:20:04.:20:10.

contributing in so many other ways. Why are we being penalised, why are

:20:10.:20:14.

we being denied things. There is talk about taking away the Freedom

:20:14.:20:18.

Pass, yet on the other hand we are being told we have to contribute to

:20:18.:20:22.

the Big Society. Without the Freedom Pass, we would not be able

:20:22.:20:27.

to get around to all the meetings and the support that we give to

:20:27.:20:31.

other people. Are we expected to pay out of our pockets to do what

:20:31.:20:36.

the Government is asking us to do. There is a lady behind you pretty

:20:36.:20:40.

agitated? Can I say, first of all, with a great deal of regret, that I

:20:40.:20:43.

think the presentation so far has been very unbalanced, and the

:20:43.:20:47.

platform is not balanced. We should have had an expert who would be

:20:47.:20:51.

able to counter the arguments of the first clip we USA that is one

:20:51.:20:56.

thing. But the question is how do other -- we saw, that is one thing.

:20:56.:21:00.

But the question is how do other countries afford it, there are 157

:21:00.:21:04.

countries in the world, this country, the sixth-richest in the

:21:04.:21:07.

world, is fourth from the bottom in terms of state pension provision.

:21:07.:21:11.

If other countries can afford it, so can we. We are still a very rich

:21:12.:21:17.

country, and I'm still paying taxes. The whole thing is really absolute

:21:17.:21:21.

nonsense. It is a question of political will, in the same way as,

:21:21.:21:25.

in 1948 it was a question of political will when the deficit

:21:25.:21:29.

that we hear so much about, after World War II, was bigger than it is

:21:29.:21:33.

now, and yet we managed, from scratch, to produce the welfare

:21:33.:21:39.

state, and the fantastic NHS that has now being taken away from us.

:21:39.:21:43.

What reassurance can you offer a voter like that? In my experience,

:21:43.:21:47.

all voters understand that we have obligations to each generation. It

:21:47.:21:54.

is a matter of getting the balance right. Of course we have a great

:21:54.:21:59.

obligation to pensioners, but we also have an obligation to young

:21:59.:22:02.

people, not loading them with the cost and servicing and financing of

:22:02.:22:06.

the debt we leave behind W if we leave behind thrillions of debt,

:22:06.:22:12.

they will be paying taxes for decades to service the borrowings

:22:12.:22:15.

we have taken on. We have an obligation to the younger

:22:15.:22:18.

generation as well. In my experience older people understand

:22:18.:22:22.

that, we understand older generations paid for us when we

:22:22.:22:26.

were younger and we have an obligation to younger generations

:22:26.:22:29.

coming after us. What about the moral argument, anyone want to

:22:29.:22:33.

engage about it, why younger people, your children and grandchildren,

:22:33.:22:37.

people that have generation, should pay to keep you in the entitlements

:22:37.:22:43.

that you currently have? I believe that, at the moment, older people

:22:43.:22:47.

are being made to work far longer. Because the state pension, that has

:22:47.:22:52.

been pointed out, is so low, people have to carry on working. I don't

:22:52.:22:54.

think at the moment having all these older people working for

:22:54.:22:58.

longer and longer, is really in the interests of the community as a

:22:58.:23:03.

whole. I think, when we have got mass unemployment among our young

:23:03.:23:07.

people, and we are forcing our older people to carry on longer and

:23:07.:23:10.

longer working, a lot of people carry on working because they have

:23:10.:23:13.

to, because you can't live on the state pension. If that is your only

:23:13.:23:18.

income. And now we are being told, no, you can't retire, as I did, at

:23:18.:23:23.

60, and men used to at 65, it is going up, it is going to be 67 and

:23:23.:23:28.

68, we hear 70, more than 70. We have all these young people with no

:23:28.:23:31.

jobs, and we are keeping our old people in jobs, and we are

:23:31.:23:35.

depriving our young people. It just seems to be completely on its head.

:23:35.:23:38.

You have just been doing a programme about this, this question

:23:38.:23:43.

of retirement. Do you see any point in a retirement age? The point is,

:23:43.:23:47.

that a child born today will be 77 before the state pension kicks in.

:23:47.:23:54.

And what we did on that programme, the town that never retired, we

:23:54.:23:57.

took 14 pensioners and put them back to work, we put plasterers

:23:57.:24:02.

back to work at 75 and joiners and plumbers, in the Arctic conditions

:24:02.:24:06.

of a winter in Preston, on an open building site, because that is what

:24:06.:24:10.

is going to have to happen. Because a great slab of society have never

:24:10.:24:14.

earned enough in their working life to put something aside for their

:24:14.:24:18.

old age, and they rely on their pension. If you want to see, or do

:24:18.:24:23.

I want to see my father, as it were, at 75, up ladder, plastering a

:24:23.:24:27.

ceiling. As a son, I would prefer to pay more tax so that he didn't

:24:27.:24:33.

have to do that. And remember, the son, will be old too one day.

:24:33.:24:39.

He will be the begin fishry it was the most extraordinary experiment -

:24:39.:24:43.

- beneficiary, it was the most extraordinary experiment, these

:24:43.:24:46.

older people had such pride in their work, it was extraordinary,

:24:46.:24:49.

but they couldn't physically do it. You are assuming that technology

:24:49.:24:54.

will stay the same in 20 years time, it is not. They will be building

:24:54.:24:57.

houses in quite a different way. There is gentleman behind you?

:24:57.:25:02.

would like to put a word in for the millions of people, of pensionable

:25:02.:25:07.

age, who are still working and want to do so. If you're fit. You want

:25:07.:25:11.

to work? I'm still working full- time. How old are you? If you are

:25:11.:25:15.

fit and healthy, why not carry on working, it has benefits to

:25:15.:25:20.

yourself, and the community, and if you still have an active role in

:25:20.:25:26.

life you are going to live longer, happier, healthier and be less of a

:25:26.:25:30.

burden on the state. So I would say for those people who want to work,

:25:31.:25:34.

beyond the pensionable age, let them work, and let's remove this

:25:34.:25:39.

prejudice against older people. have got rid of the retirement age

:25:39.:25:43.

last year, no longer can anybody be forced to retire, Jews because of

:25:43.:25:47.

their age, and a good -- just because of their age, and a good

:25:47.:25:53.

thing too. Absolutely right. There is a conventional expectation?

:25:53.:25:57.

There is no legal basis for that expectation. One of the things we

:25:57.:26:02.

will have to expect when we get older is more of us will have to

:26:02.:26:07.

work longer. We can't have the same period of working life and a longer

:26:07.:26:12.

and longer time in retirement. Judges can work until they are 70s,

:26:12.:26:19.

is it reasonable for manual labour, digging ditches, it is already

:26:19.:26:23.

sitting here on high salaries with hand made shoes, but others don't.

:26:24.:26:27.

There is less andless work like, that but there is evidence older

:26:27.:26:35.

people carry on working and they should have the right. I want to

:26:35.:26:39.

represent -- ask the representative of one of the generation that might

:26:39.:26:43.

have to work for a lot longer. What does it mean to you with older

:26:43.:26:45.

people going back into the work place? The fundamental issue is

:26:45.:26:48.

people were told the amount of money they were paying into the

:26:48.:26:52.

system was enough to care for them when they retired. And that hasn't

:26:52.:26:57.

been the case. For younger people who are working, and for older

:26:57.:27:02.

people who continue to work, they are, in a sense, facing a double

:27:02.:27:08.

whammy. They are supporting, and topping up, the money for those who

:27:08.:27:11.

are now in retirement, but at the same time, they are now looking to

:27:11.:27:16.

the future and thinking, gosh, in 2050 we will have double the number

:27:16.:27:20.

of people over 65 that we have got today. We need to be looking at

:27:21.:27:24.

saving. A lady raised the question before, what are other countries

:27:24.:27:28.

doing? If you look at some of the things other countries are do

:27:28.:27:32.

places like Australia have moved from state pension system to a

:27:32.:27:36.

compulsory savings system that can give you more flexibility in terms

:27:36.:27:41.

of when people do retire. This very big cost of social care, in other

:27:41.:27:46.

words, homes, effectively, when exactly are you going to tell us

:27:46.:27:50.

what your proposals are. You keep on saying it will be very shortly,

:27:50.:27:56.

and then a bit longer and a bit longer? I can assure you it will be

:27:56.:28:00.

very shortly Next week? I don't know exactly how many weeks, we

:28:00.:28:04.

have made it absolutely clear we will publish a draft bill on this

:28:04.:28:08.

publishing our White Paper. We do want to work with other parties, to

:28:08.:28:13.

try to agree a long-term settlement. Why is it taking so long to work

:28:13.:28:17.

out? Because it is a very tricky issue. We saw with the emotions we

:28:17.:28:23.

saw in the film earlier, we know people feel intensely about staying

:28:23.:28:30.

in their own home wrecks need an affordable system. -- We need an

:28:30.:28:32.

affordable system. I have a question about free travel, it

:28:33.:28:36.

shouldn't be called that. The Government pays local authorities

:28:36.:28:41.

�120 million a year to pay for that travel, pensioners contribute for

:28:41.:28:46.

working for nothing, either looking after their grandchildren, a loved

:28:46.:28:52.

one, �40 billion, not million, �40 billion a year, we save this

:28:52.:29:00.

country. Let's look at the broader question of social care, the lady

:29:00.:29:04.

you saw in the film, very upset that she was having to sell her

:29:04.:29:09.

home, in order to pay for her care. She has very bad cancer, and she

:29:09.:29:15.

needs proper care, she can't live at home. Is there any reason why

:29:15.:29:20.

she shouldn't have to sell her home? I think so. If we get away

:29:20.:29:26.

with the loophole that let's people in this country get money paid into

:29:26.:29:30.

offshore accounts so they don't pay tax, that would cut our deficit

:29:30.:29:37.

straight away. Pauline Turner, you sold your mother's house? Yes I did,

:29:37.:29:42.

my mother has been in a care home for four-and-a-half years. I bought

:29:42.:29:45.

a care package in case everything happened to me I wanted to make

:29:45.:29:50.

sure she was taken care of. So far it has cost �96,000. What I wanted

:29:50.:29:58.

to ask Mr Willets, is the Dilnot Commission going to be included in

:29:58.:30:03.

this White Paper. Because it is so important, these are the only

:30:03.:30:08.

people that have come up. This is the inquiry into how you fund long-

:30:08.:30:13.

term care when you are old? It is much fairer than what we have now

:30:13.:30:18.

my mother, in a way, she has Alzheimer's, so she doesn't know

:30:18.:30:25.

what's happened to her mother. report was an excellent report,

:30:25.:30:32.

Andrew Dilnot. I had input in that too. It is great report. Andrew is

:30:32.:30:37.

a complete expert on this, but it does come with quite a high cost up

:30:37.:30:39.

front, the Government has to look at whether that can be afforded and

:30:40.:30:45.

how we pay for it. We do want to work to find a solution between the

:30:45.:30:50.

other parties. Social care has always been the Cinderella of the

:30:50.:30:54.

NHS. That lady who spoke earlier, none of the councils ring-fence

:30:54.:30:59.

their money for the elderly. None of them. And also, let me point out

:30:59.:31:06.

too, that where my mother lives, her costs this year went up by 5%.

:31:06.:31:15.

What KCC paid for their hom people is 1.5%, self-funders are

:31:15.:31:17.

subsidising councils. If you could ensure people there was a maximum

:31:17.:31:22.

bill they could face, it might give them more confidence to say. We

:31:22.:31:29.

understand that argument. What does a person do who is in my position,

:31:29.:31:38.

I was perfectly fit in 2003, I came home from work, within a few

:31:38.:31:43.

seconds, I just literally, quicker than you can turn a page on a book,

:31:43.:31:47.

or turn off an electric light, collapsed on the floor. I was on

:31:47.:31:54.

the floor for 72 hours. Until I was picked up. I had to literally pull

:31:55.:32:03.

the telephone off the wall. But I can't meet my current accounts.

:32:03.:32:08.

Because I'm simply not getting the support that I feel, with many

:32:08.:32:18.
:32:18.:32:18.

others, that we need. Do you own your own house? No, I don't. What

:32:18.:32:23.

sort of comfort can you give? don't know the detales of your

:32:23.:32:26.

personal circumstances. Every person in Government understands

:32:26.:32:30.

absolutely we have obligations to people who have suffered personal

:32:30.:32:34.

misfortune of the type you describe. But equally we have obligations of

:32:34.:32:38.

people across the ages. We can't get into a mind set where it is one

:32:38.:32:40.

generation against another generation. The best way to ensure

:32:40.:32:46.

that we carry on standing by our older citizens, to whom we have an

:32:46.:32:49.

obligation, is to ensure that the younger generation as well think

:32:49.:32:54.

they are getting a fair deal, that we have also discharged our duty to

:32:54.:33:00.

them. The Government believes in fairness to beginlation racial --

:33:00.:33:05.

generations. Then we can keep the show on the road. Can we explore

:33:05.:33:09.

that issue, responsibility to coming generations? I think that

:33:09.:33:19.

the emphasis has been so much on that rich and poor that matter.

:33:19.:33:25.

There is a study carried out in Europe, it is called the European

:33:25.:33:30.

Pensions Barometer Report, which I would like a comment on from the

:33:30.:33:35.

reporter, which shows that of the countries across Europe, Britain

:33:35.:33:42.

has a very high ranking for being able to afford, this is pensions,

:33:42.:33:51.

it would also apply to care, that has the lowest pension, and it also

:33:51.:33:55.

has the very high ranking for sustainability. Do you feel a

:33:55.:33:59.

responsibility towards younger generations? We're doing it for the

:33:59.:34:05.

younger generations. You are doing what for them? This is from the

:34:05.:34:08.

National Pensioners' Convention, which has a lot of information that

:34:08.:34:13.

could have clarified a lot in your initial introduction. I'm just

:34:13.:34:16.

saying is the minister not ashamed, that in Europe we have the

:34:16.:34:20.

capability, high-ranking capability, but the failure to even make the

:34:20.:34:28.

pension at a decent rate. You have your hand up? I am right

:34:28.:34:33.

with you on this. The lady who spoke earlier, you seem to be

:34:33.:34:36.

avoiding a lot, there are many, many young people out of work. Some

:34:36.:34:40.

of them have been out of work so long they have never worked. There

:34:40.:34:47.

will be more of them out of work if older people are in work? These are

:34:47.:34:51.

our children and great-grand children and our families, the

:34:51.:34:54.

rights we have we want them. To the Government should be putting money

:34:54.:35:00.

into getting our young people working. And it is a point about

:35:00.:35:04.

these people, these huge companies who owe billions in offshore

:35:04.:35:08.

accounts, you can't just leave it alone, why aren't you, in the

:35:08.:35:11.

Government, recovering that money? Do something about it, because

:35:11.:35:16.

that's what is causing the deficit. It is not young people being lazy

:35:16.:35:21.

causing it, it is not people living too long, which I find obscene that

:35:21.:35:25.

you, it is something to rejoice that people are living longer.

:35:25.:35:28.

course we have to extract a fair amount of tax from banks. There is

:35:28.:35:35.

notes a pot of gold at the end of the garden to solve our sole fiscal

:35:35.:35:41.

problems. There is a huge amount. Give him a chance to speak? We are

:35:41.:35:47.

investing in young people's work, we have a huge number more of

:35:47.:35:51.

apprenticeships. We want to get the balance right, so we can stand

:35:51.:35:54.

beside the obligations to older people and standby opportunities

:35:54.:35:58.

for younger people. We will cut it there. It promised to be something

:35:58.:36:01.

of a spectacular, one of the most unpopular many in Britain facing a

:36:01.:36:05.

mob of politician, eefpl more than willing to cast the first stone.

:36:05.:36:10.

When Bob Diamond, the ousted boss of Barclays, popped up before the

:36:10.:36:14.

Treasury Select Committee, we didn't learn a whole lot more about

:36:14.:36:17.

how his bank rigged interest rates. Instead of asking difficult

:36:17.:36:21.

questions, the MPs did what they are used to doing, and made

:36:21.:36:25.

speeches. Tomorrow parliament will decide whether the scandal should

:36:25.:36:30.

be investigated by another bunch of politicians for a judicial inquiry.

:36:30.:36:39.

American Bob Diamond has probably had better 4th of July, like the

:36:39.:36:45.

4th July 1996, the day he joininged Barclays. There was no -- joined

:36:45.:36:49.

Barclays. There was no celebrations today as he arrived at the British

:36:49.:36:53.

seat of power to defend his history. First thing you need to know about

:36:53.:36:59.

Bob, he's a man in love. I love Barclays. David I love Barclays.

:36:59.:37:02.

love Barclays because of the people. And you know what, Barclays loved

:37:02.:37:08.

him back, paying him more than �120 million since 2005. A sum with

:37:08.:37:13.

which he could have, if he wanted, hired a Barclays-sponsored bike in

:37:13.:37:17.

London for two-and-a-half million years. The Barclays LIBOR scandal

:37:17.:37:23.

fits rather neatly into three parts, the first has to do with the period,

:37:23.:37:28.

2005-2007, when, traders working for Barclays sought to manipulate

:37:28.:37:32.

the firm's LIBOR submissions, in order to make money. Not

:37:32.:37:37.

surprisingly, Mr Diamond told MPs today that he didn't think this was

:37:37.:37:41.

acceptable. I got physically ill, it is reprehensible behaviour, and

:37:41.:37:48.

if you are asking me should those actions be dealt with? Absolutely.

:37:48.:37:52.

While Barclays traders were trying to pump up the LIBOR rate, Bob, you

:37:52.:37:55.

see, knew nothing about it. Despite the fact that the pumpers worked

:37:55.:38:03.

for him. Well, love can sometimes be blind. MPs were, well, let's say,

:38:03.:38:09.

sceptical. You didn't know anything about that, yet the regulator can

:38:09.:38:15.

document a trader, sitting with a submiter, and shouting across the

:38:15.:38:20.

room, "I'm going to, this is the rate we are going to declare, does

:38:20.:38:28.

anybody have a problem with that?" I don't expect you to look at all

:38:28.:38:32.

the e-mail, but did you run such a firm that nobody in the firm would

:38:32.:38:36.

think that's something the boss should know. Because this is

:38:36.:38:42.

crucial, this is the integrity of the bank? Again, George, this was

:38:42.:38:46.

reprehensible behaviour. I know that. I know that Mr Diamond. I

:38:46.:38:51.

know that, but I'm asking. Did nobody, what kind of firm were you

:38:51.:38:57.

running? The second part of the scandal relates to the period 2007-

:38:57.:39:00.

2008, by now the credit crunch is really biting, and banks, including

:39:00.:39:03.

Barclays, are finding it increasingly difficult and

:39:03.:39:06.

expensive to borrow money. In theory, this higher cost of

:39:06.:39:11.

borrowing should be reflected in higher LIBOR submissions, except,

:39:12.:39:15.

managers at Barclays decided to underreport the rate that they were

:39:15.:39:21.

borrowing at, in order to make the firm look stronger.

:39:21.:39:26.

Mr Diamond was asked repeatedly when he came aware this under-Rowe

:39:26.:39:32.

reporting, or low-balling was going on. What month did you discomfort

:39:32.:39:35.

low-balling was going on? This month. As late as this month.

:39:35.:39:39.

and this is rather confusing, Mr Diamond also told MPs that it was

:39:39.:39:44.

common knowledge at the time that this low-balling of LIBOR was

:39:44.:39:49.

widespread among other banks. There were, afterall, prominent reports

:39:49.:39:53.

by US regulators and journalists. And yet, apparently, Mr Diamond

:39:53.:39:57.

hadn't considered investigating whether it was happening at his

:39:57.:39:59.

bank. The final part of this scandal

:39:59.:40:03.

relates to late October 2008, by now, financial institutions all

:40:03.:40:09.

over the world are going Bill belly-up. In Britain, the

:40:09.:40:14.

Government has had to pump billions into HBOS and RBS. And there is a

:40:14.:40:17.

phone conversation between Paul Tucker, deputy Governor of the Bank

:40:17.:40:22.

of England, and Bob Diamond of Barclays. In which, according to Mr

:40:22.:40:27.

Diamond's note of the conversation, Mr Tucker tells hims that his

:40:27.:40:30.

company's LIBOR submissions don't have to be that high, in other

:40:30.:40:33.

words, doesn't have to be truthful about the cost Barclays is having

:40:33.:40:37.

to pay to borrow money. What is it you thought Mr Tucker wanted you to

:40:37.:40:41.

do? He was pointing out the problem. I was pointing out the problem

:40:41.:40:47.

wasn't with Barclays, but with other submissions. Sorry, that's

:40:47.:40:55.

too shorthand to say it. As I said, I didn't take it as a directive, I

:40:55.:41:00.

took it as either a heads had-up that you are high, or an annoyance

:41:00.:41:06.

that you are high. What I said is, I don't have the note in front of

:41:06.:41:09.

me, I said the reality is that we at Barclays are reporting the rates

:41:09.:41:14.

at which we bore ro. It certainly appears, given the number -- borrow.

:41:14.:41:18.

It certainly appears, given the number of institutions who are

:41:18.:41:21.

posting below us, and getting money from the Government, that they

:41:21.:41:25.

weren't potion at these levels. This is graph showing Barclays'

:41:25.:41:28.

LIBOR submissions relative to the other banks. Higher before the

:41:28.:41:34.

telephone call, and then, before you can say "double my bonus", the

:41:34.:41:37.

Ayr comes out of Barclays submissions -- the air comes out of

:41:37.:41:42.

bash clees submissions relative to those banks. As Mr Diamond left the

:41:42.:41:48.

political row continued. In the phone call, apparently, Paul Tucker

:41:48.:41:51.

said Whitehall wanted the figures down. Was that a LIBOR reference to

:41:51.:41:56.

a minister. And Labour said only a judge-led inquiry the scandal

:41:56.:41:58.

should do. The Government says parliament should investigate.

:41:58.:42:00.

Tomorrow the Commons will vote on this.

:42:00.:42:04.

In a moment we will hear from two members of the select committee,

:42:04.:42:11.

the Labour MP, John Mann, and the Conservative, Andrea Leadson. What

:42:11.:42:15.

did we learn today, Paul Mason? much, this man ran a bank that

:42:15.:42:19.

broke the law. He claims he knew nothing about it. Nothing about it

:42:19.:42:24.

all the, until a month ago. Now the chairman of that committee, Andrew

:42:24.:42:28.

Tyrie, said, tonight, he thinks that claim is implausible. He says

:42:28.:42:32.

he has evidence that the FSA were worried about dime at the moment he

:42:32.:42:39.

was made CEO of Barclays. We will - - about the time that he was made

:42:39.:42:48.

CEO of Barclays. We will find out about that later. The it wasn't the

:42:48.:42:52.

usual stuff you get from the select committees, they were precise. The

:42:52.:42:56.

committee, as a structure was not able to pin Diamond down. What is

:42:56.:43:00.

the issue? The issue is, not did Gordon Brown or Ed Balls order

:43:00.:43:06.

LIBOR to be rigged, or Tucker, actually, Diamond, you saw it there

:43:06.:43:09.

rode back from any suggestion that was indeed the case. The question

:43:09.:43:13.

is, why did Mr Diamond's underlings think they had been instructed by

:43:13.:43:16.

the Bank of England, when he said he didn't instruct them. We just

:43:16.:43:23.

cannot get to the bottom of that. Let me ask the two of you, you sat

:43:23.:43:27.

and cross-examined this man, did you feel you got the truth?

:43:27.:43:32.

definitely not. It was astonishing. It really felt as though he had an

:43:32.:43:38.

agenda, he knew exactly how to bat us back. It was very hard to lay a

:43:38.:43:43.

finger on him. Even when we asked incredibly direct questions, like

:43:43.:43:47.

precisely when did he know about the LIBOR rigging, and he said last

:43:47.:43:55.

month ta, made him physically ill. This is man who started life in

:43:55.:43:58.

banking himself. Did you think that? He came into block everything.

:43:58.:44:04.

And of course, we don't have access. He did it pretty confidently too?

:44:04.:44:07.

We don't have access to the documents, we are trying to ask

:44:07.:44:12.

questions, and he's simply saying, he doesn't know. Constantly's paid

:44:12.:44:15.

an awful lot of money to know nothing about the bank he was

:44:15.:44:18.

running. Interestingly, you worked with Barclays, I'm not saying you

:44:19.:44:21.

are anything more than the fact that you have worked at Barclays.

:44:21.:44:26.

Is it plausible that the boss of Barclays claimed to know of this

:44:26.:44:30.

pratice going on in other banks, but not in his own bank? It is not

:44:30.:44:34.

plausible. It is either unbelievable incompetence, or he

:44:34.:44:38.

would have known about it. This rate is the very interesting

:44:38.:44:43.

question of whether this sort of forum is likely to make any

:44:43.:44:45.

progress in a detailed investigation. And the decision

:44:45.:44:49.

about that has to be made, is it tomorrow in the parliamentary vote?

:44:49.:44:53.

Tomorrow afternoon. What's your view about that? I would have an

:44:53.:44:57.

independent judicial inquiry into this. And I would let it take its

:44:57.:45:00.

time. Because the detail is everything. I would let our

:45:00.:45:05.

committee get on with some of the policy issues, for example, whether

:45:05.:45:11.

we should bring forward the Vickers recommendations. Which I think

:45:11.:45:17.

partly emanate from this. These are bigger issues, that we could

:45:17.:45:21.

appropriately deal with, but to have a judicial inquiry into this.

:45:21.:45:25.

Will you hear from Paul Tucker? Certainly next week. It sounds as

:45:25.:45:30.

if you booked him in? We two don't, but the word we get is he will be

:45:30.:45:35.

there next week. What is your view about a parliamentary inquiry, or a

:45:35.:45:39.

judicial inquiry, as John Mann wants? The issue of a judicial

:45:39.:45:43.

inquiry is one of speed. If you get a good judge, they are likely to be

:45:43.:45:46.

busy at the moment. They have to get a team and terms of reference,

:45:46.:45:49.

they will be six weeks behind where the Treasury committee is now. I

:45:49.:45:53.

think there is merit in thinking whether there is the expertise in

:45:53.:45:56.

the Treasury committee, but there is plenty of people to go and sk.

:45:56.:46:02.

If you set up an independent inquiry, you have problems with

:46:02.:46:06.

underlaps and overlaps and who is investigating what. If it expands,

:46:06.:46:12.

does their brief expand or our's. I'm not sure about an independent

:46:12.:46:15.

judicial inquiry. Which way will you vote? For the Government's

:46:15.:46:17.

proposal, for a parliamentary inquiry. Despite your experience

:46:17.:46:22.

today when you didn't get to the truth? The point is Diamond is just

:46:22.:46:26.

extraordinarily well briefed on how to prevar Kate. He just kept

:46:26.:46:32.

talking about the culture. You are talking about this extraordinary --

:46:32.:46:37.

you are just bad at cross-examining. Nobody is pursuing anything? We did,

:46:37.:46:40.

but he's extraordinarily well- trained to going back to his

:46:40.:46:46.

original case, he loves Barclays, it was fabulous culture with a few

:46:46.:46:50.

bad eggs. You have to bear in mind the only documents we have, is the

:46:50.:46:53.

handful of papers Barclays has sent us, and media articles. That is

:46:53.:46:58.

what we are going on. We don't have access and we can't requisition the

:46:58.:47:02.

documents from inside the banks. This is a huge scandal of fiddling

:47:03.:47:06.

and corruption. Do you co-ordinate. Do you get together and say I'll do

:47:06.:47:10.

this and you follow with that? Absolutely, of course we do. It is

:47:10.:47:14.

not working very well? It is, if you go round what happened this

:47:14.:47:18.

afternoon, we went very thoroughly through the three stages, the first

:47:18.:47:22.

bit which was criminally negligent. Why didn't you get to the truth?

:47:22.:47:25.

Because he is incredibly well briefed on how to prevent you

:47:25.:47:29.

landing a punch. He is better briefed than you are? He's briefed

:47:29.:47:33.

on how to not answer questions. What we failed to get from him was

:47:33.:47:36.

a straight answer, what we need to do now is talk to people around him

:47:36.:47:42.

and get answers from them. Are you shaking your head you don't agree

:47:42.:47:46.

with it or have you something to say? I sat through the Barclays

:47:46.:47:51.

conference call with Agius, where the Barclays institution refused to

:47:51.:47:55.

answer questions about this. They said wait until tomorrow, and now a

:47:55.:47:57.

man today, who doesn't work for bark closed circuit and no matter

:47:57.:48:04.

how briefed he is, he doesn't want to sit on a programme here, not on

:48:04.:48:09.

any of interest programmes or rivals. He does not feel

:48:09.:48:13.

comfortable of answering the traditional journalist probing. Let

:48:13.:48:19.

him come and answer. Nostradamus made no predictions for 2012, but

:48:19.:48:24.

our science editor did. She said the discovery of the Higgs boson

:48:24.:48:30.

would be announced this week, and lo, it came to past. As a layman I

:48:30.:48:33.

would saying, I think we have it. You agree?

:48:33.:48:42.

APPLAUSE So this means we are now much

:48:42.:48:47.

closer to understanding how the universe works, if not Barclays'

:48:47.:48:52.

precise role in it! By happy coincidence, David Willets, who we

:48:52.:48:55.

were talking to earlier is also the minister for science, and escaped

:48:55.:48:58.

his own select committee appearance today to hear the announcement.

:48:58.:49:04.

What is so excite beg it? Did I go to the select committee as well, I

:49:04.:49:08.

started the morning by discovering the secret of the universe, where

:49:08.:49:12.

mass comes from, which is what the Higgs boson is about. It goes to

:49:12.:49:16.

the earlier discussion, we are the beneficiaries of scientific

:49:16.:49:19.

discoveries from previous generations. This is a very serious

:49:19.:49:24.

discovery that we have made, that future generations will attribute

:49:24.:49:27.

to us. That is one of the reasons why there is a link between these

:49:27.:49:31.

things and as science minister you can help maintain T we are passing

:49:31.:49:34.

on to new generations new discoveries and understandings of

:49:34.:49:38.

the world, we can be proud of it. What is it, you can't see it, what

:49:38.:49:44.

does it do? What it does. The fact that we have discovered that it

:49:44.:49:50.

exists? You may need Brian Cox on this not me. The main thing is mass

:49:51.:49:54.

is created when you hit a Higgs boson particle, that is where the

:49:54.:49:58.

origins of mass are. They have been able to able to show how previously

:49:58.:50:03.

where they weren't properly able to include mass in the standard they

:50:03.:50:12.

are yum, it looks as if the -- therum, it looks as if there is now

:50:13.:50:17.

empirical confirmation because they have discovered the Higgs boson

:50:17.:50:22.

particles. That changes our lives does it? When they first discovered

:50:22.:50:27.

DNA Watson and Ciark said it wouldn't change our lives --

:50:27.:50:34.

couldn't have said it would have changed our lives. The answer comes

:50:34.:50:41.

back from experts, in future things some of these discoveries we can

:50:41.:50:48.

tax them. You will be able to tax mass? There will be future

:50:48.:50:51.

discoveries drawing on this discovery. That's t Kirsty gets to

:50:51.:50:54.

grips with the army tomorrow, one almost feels sorry for them, good

:50:54.:51:04.
:51:04.:51:27.

almost feels sorry for them, good Another warm and humid night. Grey

:51:27.:51:30.

start for many on Thursday. But like the last few days, it will

:51:30.:51:34.

brighten up. There will be some sunshine, but again, there will be

:51:34.:51:37.

also some heavy and thundery downpours. Particularly by the

:51:37.:51:41.

afternoon, across northern England. Again, some sunshine, will lift the

:51:41.:51:45.

temperature noose the 20s. Parts of the Midlands, East Anglia and the

:51:45.:51:49.

south-east, also likely to see a scattering of heavy downpours,

:51:49.:51:54.

still very much hit and miss, not everywhere catching them. Large

:51:54.:51:58.

parts of England staying dry. The showers here could be very

:51:58.:52:01.

persistent. Generally dry and bright across Wales. A fresh feel

:52:02.:52:06.

here with temperatures 17-18, the same goes for Northern Ireland.

:52:06.:52:10.

Maybe a few more scattered showers, again some sunshine. North West

:52:10.:52:13.

Scotland has enjoyed largely dry and fine conditions for the last

:52:13.:52:17.

few days. Sunshine here, but the chance of one or two more showers

:52:17.:52:22.

during Thursday, and showers also in southern parts of Scotland. By

:52:22.:52:25.

Friday we are looking at wet weather moving across the country.

:52:25.:52:29.

The likelihood of some very heavy rain lasting for a good part of the

:52:29.:52:32.

day. Some uncertainty about exactly where. But there are warnings in

:52:32.:52:36.

force already for the downpours, there is the real likelihood of

:52:36.:52:40.

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