12/09/2012 Newsnight


12/09/2012

With Kirsty Wark. What really happened at Hillsborough? How is life for gay people in post-Saddam Iraq? And how should America respond to the death of its ambassador in Libya?


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 12/09/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

On behalf of the Government, and indeed our country, I'm profoundly

:00:12.:00:15.

sorry that this double injustice has been left uncorrected for so

:00:16.:00:21.

long. Our golden summer of sport has been overshadowed by a day of

:00:21.:00:27.

national disgrace. The inquiry into the Hillsborough disaster is a

:00:27.:00:33.

devastating document. Andy's body number was number 50. However,

:00:33.:00:39.

reading a witness statement it appeared that Andrew was given body

:00:39.:00:46.

number 50, before he was certified dead. The truth is now out, we

:00:46.:00:50.

examine the failure of the services that led to needless death, the

:00:50.:00:53.

appalling cover up by police officers, and the spreading of

:00:53.:00:57.

vicious lies about football fans, many of them printed in the Sun

:00:57.:01:02.

Newspaper. We will debate the impact of the report with guests,

:01:02.:01:06.

including Trevor Hicks, who lost two daughters that day, the head of

:01:06.:01:09.

the police service so damned by the report, and asking how justice will

:01:09.:01:14.

be done. The Arab Spring success story looks a lot bleaker after the

:01:14.:01:21.

US Ambassador to Libya is murdered. The loss the ambassador has shocked

:01:21.:01:24.

America, and brought foreign policy to the fore in the presidential

:01:24.:01:29.

campaign. And, captured, beaten and murdered

:01:29.:01:34.

by the police, welcome to life if you are gay in post Saddam Iraq.

:01:34.:01:42.

They call gays "puppies", they were beaten, saying we are destroying

:01:42.:01:52.
:01:52.:01:53.

the country, we must kill you all. Good evening, the Prime Minister

:01:53.:01:56.

apologised today for the events of the Hillsborough sis SAS ter, for

:01:56.:02:00.

the long years the familiar -- disaster, for the long years the

:02:00.:02:03.

families have had to wait for the truth, for the cover up by

:02:03.:02:09.

ambulance and police services, and the smear campaign by the same

:02:09.:02:13.

services against entirely innocent football fans and their families.

:02:13.:02:16.

Relatives heard of the 96 who died, 41 might have lived had the

:02:16.:02:20.

response of the police and services been better. The Bishop of

:02:20.:02:24.

Liverpool, who chaired the panel of inquiry, said the disaster was an

:02:24.:02:29.

open wound in the city. We're in Liverpool tonight.

:02:29.:02:33.

It's been a terribly long haul for people who had already suffered far

:02:33.:02:36.

too much in bereavement, but tonight, here, there is a feeling

:02:36.:02:40.

of a burden, at last, perhaps, being lifted. And the authorities

:02:41.:02:45.

responsible for all the wrongs, they have been clearly indicted.

:02:45.:02:53.

All the careless insults about self-pity cities and whingeing

:02:53.:03:00.

Scousers, they stand exposed as the cruel nonsense they always were.

:03:00.:03:05.

The people here are no less maudlin than anywhere else, but for 20

:03:05.:03:10.

years they felled traduced. Over the long years, the pleas of the

:03:10.:03:14.

fans have grown ever louder, justice for the 96 who died, and

:03:14.:03:19.

for all their families, and for those who count themselves lucky to

:03:19.:03:22.

have survived the horrors of Hillsborough. Today that quest for

:03:22.:03:26.

justice and truth took a delated, but considerable leap forward, the

:03:27.:03:30.

Government apologised. The new evidence that we are presented with

:03:30.:03:35.

today makes clear, in my view, that these families have suffered a

:03:35.:03:38.

double injustice. The injustice of the appalling events, the failure

:03:38.:03:42.

of the state to protect their loved ones, and the indefensible wait to

:03:42.:03:46.

get to the truth. And then the injustice of the denegration of the

:03:46.:03:49.

deceased, that they were some how at fault for their own deaths. So,

:03:49.:03:54.

on behalf of the Government, and indeed, our country, I'm profoundly

:03:54.:03:57.

sorry that this double injustice has been left uncorrected for so

:03:57.:04:03.

long. Tonight, in Liverpool, there has

:04:03.:04:09.

been a vigil and commemoration, and an overwhelming feeling of relief.

:04:09.:04:12.

Vindication is the word chosen here, and the report makes it crystal

:04:12.:04:17.

clear, there was, indeed, a cover- up. The Hillsborough ground had no

:04:17.:04:21.

safety certificate, and should never have been used, and this was

:04:21.:04:25.

practically a disaster waiting to happen. The police, the Ambulance

:04:25.:04:29.

Services and others in authority deliberately misled the public, and

:04:30.:04:37.

spread lies, wrongly blaming the fans, to hide their own guilt. More

:04:37.:04:41.

than 20 years ago, Lord Taylor showed how the failure of basic

:04:41.:04:45.

police management had led to a terrifying crush outside

:04:45.:04:50.

Hillsborough. I was in it, and explain that night. Those of us who

:04:50.:04:57.

were trying to get into the Leppings Lane end of the ground,

:04:57.:05:01.

were preturbed by the add inadequate policing, which led to a

:05:02.:05:05.

crush and the double gates being open. That led directly to the

:05:05.:05:11.

killing crush inside, while the police stood and watched. In the

:05:11.:05:21.
:05:21.:05:30.

The report says it can find no rational where police Sergeant

:05:30.:05:35.

David Duckinfield was put in charge. Little regard was paid to crowd

:05:35.:05:40.

safety, on the dae day he panicked froze and blamed the fans for his

:05:40.:05:44.

own errors. As for the Ambulance Service that was badly led and

:05:44.:05:47.

chaotic, and a swifter more appropriate response would have had

:05:47.:05:55.

the potential to save more lives. Tony Edwards lives in the west of

:05:55.:05:58.

Scotland, still tormented by what happened in Hillsborough. He was

:05:58.:06:02.

the one ambulance driver who tried to help striken fans, for years his

:06:02.:06:06.

evidence was ignored. It is a vindication of everything that I

:06:06.:06:10.

have said, it is a vindication of everything that the families have

:06:10.:06:16.

been saying, over the last 23 years. It takes a cursory look, even at

:06:16.:06:20.

the videos to see that the statements that the Ambulance

:06:20.:06:25.

Service made at the time were not correct. In total there were three

:06:25.:06:29.

ambulances got on to the pitch, only my ambulance got up to the

:06:29.:06:33.

epicentre of the disaster, where actually most people died, is what

:06:33.:06:38.

I'm saying. The account that was given is that there was something

:06:38.:06:42.

like, I forget, I think it was something like 40 ambulances were

:06:42.:06:46.

at the scene. But they weren't on the field, that's never been

:06:46.:06:50.

questioned properly, really, where were they?

:06:50.:06:53.

If the emergency services had been run properly, the Hillsborough

:06:53.:06:58.

panel, suggests, as many as 41 of those who died may have had the

:06:58.:07:02.

potential to survive. Kevin Williams, who was 15, was one of

:07:02.:07:08.

them. His mother, who has fought infag teebably to have the inquest

:07:08.:07:14.

opened, now feels closer to her goal. My son and 95 innocent

:07:14.:07:19.

Liverpool fans did not die in an accident, they were unlawfully

:07:19.:07:25.

killed, at the least. There have been precedents before over

:07:25.:07:30.

inquests, something this big, obviously not, of these proportions.

:07:30.:07:34.

Particularly when you see the extent in which evidence has been

:07:34.:07:37.

manipulated and fabricated. That is on one side, then there is the

:07:37.:07:41.

question of prosecutions, criminal liability. That is possible do you

:07:41.:07:45.

think? Absolutely possible. story traces the origins of the

:07:45.:07:49.

smear campaign by the South Yorkshire police against the

:07:49.:07:52.

Liverpool fans t shows how the story was cooked up in a series of

:07:52.:07:56.

meetings over three days, between the south Yorkshire Police

:07:56.:08:01.

Federation, a local Conservative MP, and a Sheffield news agency. The

:08:01.:08:04.

south Yorkshire Chief Constable, Peter Wright, gave the Police

:08:05.:08:09.

Federation, what the panel calls, "a free hand", to prepare a rock

:08:09.:08:13.

solid story, exonerating the police, and blaming drunken, ticketless

:08:14.:08:20.

fans. The MP, Irvine Patnik, fed it to the agency, and it went national,

:08:20.:08:25.

most damagingly in the Sun, where it was labelled "the truth".

:08:25.:08:30.

Tonight the Sun made a gofling apology. The Hillsborough

:08:30.:08:33.

Indepndent Panel has established what happened that day. It is an

:08:33.:08:36.

appalling story, and at the heart of it are the police's attempt to

:08:36.:08:40.

smear Liverpool fans. It is a version of events that 23 years ago

:08:40.:08:45.

the Sun went along w and for that we are deeply ashamed and

:08:45.:08:48.

profoundly sorry. We have co- operated fully with the

:08:48.:08:52.

Hillsborough Indepndent Panel, and will publish reports of their

:08:52.:08:57.

findings in tomorrow's newspaper. The Hillsborough panel have

:08:57.:09:01.

produced a devastating report, adding solid evidence, 450,000

:09:01.:09:06.

documents, now lodged on-line. police officers, many ambulance

:09:06.:09:11.

staff, many lawyers tried to do their best at the occasion of

:09:11.:09:16.

Hillsborough, but, some got it badly wrong. That does make it

:09:16.:09:20.

difficult, it makes it difficult in a personal sense, but what makes it

:09:20.:09:24.

really strong, then, is to think that we are giving a document that

:09:24.:09:27.

can actually help make it better for the future. Because these

:09:27.:09:32.

mistakes don't need to happen again. For the bereaved families, people

:09:32.:09:37.

like Trevor Hicks, who lost his daughters, Sarah and Vicky, this is

:09:37.:09:41.

what he has waited for. It means vindication of everything we have

:09:41.:09:44.

said. With David Cameron's apology we basically have the Prime

:09:44.:09:46.

Minister saying that all the agencies of the state have let us

:09:47.:09:56.
:09:57.:10:00.

down, and worse than that, they have actually worked against us.

:10:00.:10:05.

The people of Liverpool, the blood liable, that they killed their own,

:10:05.:10:10.

has been exposed as a lie, tonight though, the battle for the truth is

:10:10.:10:17.

surely known. In the studio we have the Liverpool

:10:17.:10:20.

MP, and the Chief Constable of south Yorkshire Police, the force

:10:20.:10:24.

responsible for policing the football ground, in Liverpool the

:10:25.:10:30.

former lead singer of The Farm, Peter Hooton, who was at his borrow,

:10:30.:10:37.

and who has campaigning for victims, and Trevor Hicks, who lost two

:10:37.:10:41.

daughters. Trevor Tiktaalic, this has been such a long -- Trevor

:10:41.:10:45.

Hicks, this has been such a long road for you, the relatives had to

:10:45.:10:49.

do all the heavy lifting, pressing for this kind of inquiry. What has

:10:49.:10:55.

been the impact on you today with the result? Mixed, we are extremely

:10:55.:11:00.

grateful to the panel for the very forthright report they have

:11:00.:11:05.

produced, more forthright than we expected, I must say that. Also, as

:11:05.:11:10.

you have highlighted in your lead there, we have had some extremely

:11:10.:11:15.

difficult news to cope with, that is, that potentially up to 41

:11:15.:11:20.

people could have survived if the response had been better, more co-

:11:20.:11:23.

ordinated and much quicker. This must have been a shocking

:11:24.:11:29.

revelation to all the families, after 23 years? Some of it we have

:11:29.:11:35.

been saying, we feel totally indvaited, we have been vilified by

:11:35.:11:38.

-- vindicated. We have been vilified by people saying we are

:11:38.:11:43.

scapegoating and all that sort of thing, from that point of view we

:11:43.:11:47.

feel fully vindicated for what we have done. We already knew, and we

:11:47.:11:51.

already suspected lots of what was in it, but if I can speak for

:11:51.:11:54.

myself, I know it is the case with most of the other families, even we

:11:54.:12:00.

have been shocked by just how far and how deep this dirty tricks

:12:00.:12:05.

campaign has gone on. The idea that 41 of the 96 had the possibility

:12:06.:12:09.

that they would have survived that, had the police and Ambulance

:12:09.:12:15.

Services acted differently, that in theself, does that make the cover-

:12:15.:12:22.

up more profoundly shocking? Yes, in very simple terms. It also, as

:12:22.:12:28.

you would expect, it makes the accidental death verdict totally

:12:28.:12:33.

untenable now. That's where our next stage of the campaign will go.

:12:33.:12:38.

That will be to have that squashed, set aside, and new inquests put in

:12:38.:12:45.

place. If I can just, looking at those statements, 164 statements

:12:45.:12:51.

were amended, and 160 negative comments about police officers were

:12:51.:12:57.

removed. 116, is this beyond what you could have imagined? Yes it is,

:12:57.:13:02.

the numbers get bigger every time it is exposed. We also found from

:13:02.:13:06.

the documentary evidence that the panel reported on, that there was

:13:06.:13:10.

actually meetings between the Chief Constable and, what effectively is

:13:10.:13:13.

the police union, the Police Federation, where they were co-

:13:13.:13:19.

ordinating their efforts to use the panel's phrase "to build a strong

:13:19.:13:25.

story", and to have a concerted effort to bring blame on the fans.

:13:25.:13:31.

We bring in the South Yorkshire Chief Constable, David Crompton,

:13:31.:13:39.

which is more veepbl, that there was a terrible -- venal, that there

:13:39.:13:43.

was a terrible cover-up on the day, or they tried to smear people and

:13:43.:13:49.

their families, surely this is a shaming day for South Yorkshire

:13:49.:13:55.

Police? Yes, it has been a very uncomfortable day for us. But any

:13:55.:14:01.

discomfort felt in the force pales into incision compared to Trevor

:14:01.:14:05.

Hicks and the families, who have been put through 23 years of hell,

:14:05.:14:09.

really. Here and now can I say I profoundly apologise for the

:14:10.:14:12.

experience they have been put through and what happened on the

:14:12.:14:15.

day. Let's look at what we are dealing with here, we are dealing

:14:15.:14:19.

with a lot of police officers who are still serving, and in those 23

:14:19.:14:23.

years, when these relatives have been doing so much to try to get to

:14:23.:14:29.

the truth, there was no-one police whistleblower, there was no-one

:14:29.:14:34.

police officer coming forward saying, this is a pack of lies, I

:14:34.:14:38.

behaved badly my colleagues behaved badly. That shows a pretty damning

:14:38.:14:43.

culture still within South Yorkshire Police? I would say that

:14:43.:14:46.

in 2012 South Yorkshire Police is a very different place than in 1989.

:14:46.:14:50.

You only know that from today, presumably, you didn't know until

:14:50.:14:55.

today how badly the police had behaved? And I would agree that

:14:55.:14:59.

nobody coming forward over all of that time is damning indictment,

:14:59.:15:04.

and somebody should have done it. And there's police officers today

:15:04.:15:08.

who presumably, in your force, you want to go to and say how do you

:15:08.:15:12.

feel now after 23 years of keeping your mouth shut. Did you know about

:15:13.:15:16.

this, as a Chief Constable, how much of a cover-up there had been

:15:16.:15:21.

by individual officers? No, I didn't have any idea of that. I was

:15:21.:15:27.

as shocked as everybody else when the result of the report came out

:15:28.:15:32.

this morning. Can we be sure that the cover-up, not in the case of

:15:32.:15:38.

Hillsborough, we know about that, can you be sure? People in this

:15:38.:15:41.

country put their trust in police officers to uphold the law, and you

:15:41.:15:45.

can't be sure that this kind of cover-up, you say the culture has

:15:45.:15:48.

changed, you don't know that, you can't know that? One concrete

:15:48.:15:54.

reason I would advance is this, that if we go all the way back to

:15:54.:15:59.

1989, there was tremendous pressure on Lord Justice Taylor, to come to

:15:59.:16:03.

the conclusion of his interim report, prior to the commencement

:16:03.:16:06.

of the next football season. That meant there were a huge number of

:16:06.:16:09.

statements to be gathered and processed, and they weren't dealt

:16:09.:16:14.

with in the normal every day way that police officers would deal

:16:14.:16:18.

with statements, for example, for shoplifting or burglary. In that

:16:18.:16:21.

sense there was unusual and unique. Therefore, I feel that it's not

:16:21.:16:29.

something that would be repeated. Trevor Hicks, I just want you to

:16:29.:16:32.

respond to that. How do you feel about trusting police officers

:16:32.:16:35.

there on that day to be doing their jobs nowadays? First of all, there

:16:35.:16:40.

were lots of police officers who did a good job on the day. So, it's

:16:40.:16:50.
:16:50.:16:51.

not a universal dam nation, but, I think the -- damnation, but I think

:16:51.:16:56.

those police officers on the day those police officers who put in

:16:56.:16:59.

their statements criticism of the force, they were removed. Where

:17:00.:17:07.

there was any blame put on the fans, they were exaggerated. I understand

:17:07.:17:10.

the Chief Constable wasn't in post at the time, and again, as we have

:17:10.:17:15.

said lots of times, over the 23 years, even at the Stuart Smith

:17:15.:17:18.

inquiry, the fact that the statements had been doctored was

:17:18.:17:23.

known, and nothing was done about it. Louise Elman, I want to bring

:17:23.:17:27.

you in on that, exactly what Trevor Hicks was saying, this was known.

:17:27.:17:32.

Politicians haven't exactly covered themselves in glory over this. Andy

:17:32.:17:37.

Burnham started three years ago on this, but Will Straw, 13 years ago,

:17:37.:17:41.

had the opportunity to have -- Jack Straw, 13 years ago, had the

:17:41.:17:46.

opportunity to have just such an inquiry, and had he done that, the

:17:46.:17:50.

relatives wouldn't have had to have this for 13 years? The campaign led

:17:50.:17:56.

by the bereaved and traumatised over the last 23 years has been

:17:56.:17:59.

totally vindicated. It is shame on everybody involved that we didn't

:17:59.:18:02.

get to the public truth until today. Had it not been for them, there

:18:02.:18:06.

were individual politicians, but had it not been for their dogged

:18:06.:18:10.

persistence to get to the truth, we would never have known it? Today's

:18:10.:18:13.

revelations, revelations to the whole world, have come about

:18:13.:18:19.

because of the persistence of those campaigners. Tribute must be made

:18:19.:18:24.

to them. We must not leave things now. The scale of the organised

:18:24.:18:27.

conspiracy is outrageous, but we must now move further than that,

:18:27.:18:31.

now that the world knows the truth, the truth that many people

:18:31.:18:35.

suspected before, and indeed some knew about before, must now be

:18:35.:18:39.

exposed. We need a new inquest, and it is very important that the

:18:39.:18:42.

Attorney General prepares a case with great urgency to the High

:18:42.:18:46.

Court to have that inquest. Yes, because we were just saying, as

:18:46.:18:49.

Trevor Hicks was just saying, that police officers who have put in,

:18:49.:18:53.

not just police officers, they put damning reporting of other police

:18:53.:18:57.

behaviour, and the general at moss stpoor in the day, they didn't --

:18:57.:19:02.

atmosphere in the day, they didn't come forward and say we said this

:19:02.:19:05.

all this time ago, we need to feel that police officers feel able to

:19:05.:19:09.

come forward and positive about that? What has happened is totally

:19:09.:19:13.

unacceptable, it is incredible that such a thing happen. Now we know we

:19:13.:19:16.

have to pursue it further, find out who is responsible, have a new

:19:16.:19:22.

inquest, so the full truth can now come out. You were also there on

:19:22.:19:28.

that day, Peter Hooton, you have been part of this long campaign.

:19:28.:19:33.

How far down the road do you feel we are, is this just the start of a

:19:33.:19:36.

proper investigation? Let's hope it is the start of a proper

:19:36.:19:41.

investigation. I mean, obviously the 3.15 cut-off time is very

:19:41.:19:46.

important. Can you explain the 3.15 cut-off time? That is when the

:19:46.:19:49.

coroner said that everyone would have received injuries which they

:19:49.:19:54.

would have died from, or they were already dead. So that's a very

:19:54.:19:57.

important point. I have just been talking to Andy Burnham about it,

:19:57.:20:02.

and he hopes that the Attorney General will look at that and apply

:20:02.:20:05.

to the High Court, it is a very important point that is done.

:20:05.:20:09.

Liverpool fans have always known the truth from 1989, we have always

:20:09.:20:12.

known the truth, thank God the world knows the truth now. It has

:20:12.:20:16.

been a long, hard campaign, we have had a lot of support from a lot of

:20:16.:20:19.

people from all around the world, especially from the people of

:20:19.:20:24.

Liverpool, both reds and blues, it has been absolutely remarkable.

:20:24.:20:27.

Andy Burnham talked about that today. We have in front of us the

:20:28.:20:36.

original Sun, The "The Truth", which was obviously a pack of lies,

:20:36.:20:41.

then we have tomorrow morning's front page.

:20:41.:20:46.

The Sun now says they are profoundly sorry for false reports?

:20:46.:20:49.

Of course they will be, obviously the report is so damning. I think

:20:49.:20:53.

even people who thought they knew the truth about Hillsborough were

:20:53.:20:57.

even shocked by the scale of the revelations today. Everyone was so

:20:57.:21:02.

emotional in the Cathedral today, we couldn't believe the actual

:21:02.:21:08.

extent of the cover-up and the collision and the lies at the top

:21:08.:21:17.

level. -- collusion and the lies at the top live. The Attorney General

:21:17.:21:23.

has been directed by David Cameron to look very carefully, presumably

:21:23.:21:30.

the accidental deaths can't stand? It makes an absolute mockery of the

:21:30.:21:34.

3.15 cut-off. One of the shocking things for the likes of myself, and,

:21:34.:21:37.

again, the police weren't the only ones to have gone through a

:21:37.:21:40.

wholesale operation of altering statements. But a lot of the

:21:40.:21:47.

evidence that the panel put before us today, relating to the emergency

:21:47.:21:50.

response from the ambulance and medical services, we knew nothing

:21:50.:21:56.

about. We were totally shocked when they stated categorically, and they

:21:56.:21:59.

have documentary evidence, including timings that go well

:21:59.:22:04.

beyond 3.15, and this highlights, yet again, this deliberate attempt,

:22:04.:22:09.

including the coroner, on this occasion, where they were trying to

:22:09.:22:13.

rewrite Taylor, and basically, it is just ridiculous. Do you think it

:22:13.:22:17.

would be a crime if there weren't charges brought? Well, we have a

:22:17.:22:22.

lot of work to do before we can get to that stage. But, one of the

:22:22.:22:27.

things going back to the police smear campaign, I understand it is

:22:27.:22:32.

a criminal activity to use the police computer, there were

:22:32.:22:37.

apparently looking into the records to see if even some of the children

:22:37.:22:40.

had a criminal record, and the only reason for doing that, according to

:22:40.:22:45.

the panel's report, was to gain more information for the smear

:22:45.:22:50.

campaign. That's a criminal activity, it has taken place, and

:22:50.:22:52.

there is documentary evidence. Again, I would say to the Chief

:22:52.:22:55.

Constable, what is he going to do about his officers who were

:22:55.:22:59.

involved in that? I think that is a question direct to you, Chief

:22:59.:23:02.

Constable? My position is very simple and straight forward, which

:23:02.:23:05.

is if people have broken the law, then they should be prosecuted. It

:23:05.:23:09.

doesn't make any difference if they are a police officer or anybody

:23:09.:23:13.

else. Will you be looking, does it look to you, you will be looking

:23:13.:23:15.

presumably of the documentary evidence, does it looks a if they

:23:15.:23:19.

broke the law? On the face of it, yes. It looks like there are very

:23:19.:23:22.

serious questions to answer. Will you be suspending, if there is any

:23:22.:23:26.

serving officers, will you be suspending them? I'm not prepared

:23:26.:23:30.

to go into that at this stage, but what I will say, is we will treat

:23:30.:23:34.

this with the utmost seriousness, if people have serious questions to

:23:34.:23:39.

answer, we will act appropriately. Looking as a Liverpool MP, and I

:23:39.:23:43.

want to ask others about this as well, what do you think the

:23:43.:23:48.

atmosphere is in Liverpool, and has been, do you think this has been a

:23:48.:23:52.

defining feature of Liverpool for the last 23 years? This is dae

:23:52.:23:55.

fining moment. I think today -- a defining moment. I think today has

:23:55.:24:02.

brought a number of emotions, relief, that at long last what

:24:02.:24:05.

people believed to be the case has now been revealed to the world.

:24:05.:24:10.

Anger that it took so long, and deep distress at hearing those

:24:10.:24:12.

terrible reports, the information revealed by the work of the bishop

:24:12.:24:17.

and the panel, and what happened to individual people. Absolute horror

:24:17.:24:22.

at the scale of the organised conspiracy to blame the fans for

:24:22.:24:27.

their own deaths. So, I think it is a mixture of emotions. Nothing can

:24:27.:24:31.

bring back those who have died, but people can try to seek some sort of

:24:31.:24:35.

Jews at this, that is why a new inquest is so essential. There

:24:35.:24:39.

should be further investigations to identify those responsible for the

:24:39.:24:47.

dreadful acts that have now been releeld. Peter Hooton, tell me what

:24:47.:24:54.

you think this has contributed toe the idea of the city. You said good

:24:54.:24:58.

because Everton and Liverpool fans coming together, has it had a big

:24:58.:25:03.

impact on the city? The city has come together because of this. We

:25:03.:25:09.

were on tour with the Stone Roses in the summer and others from Cast,

:25:09.:25:13.

we have been on tour, taking the message of justice all around

:25:13.:25:16.

Europe. This is not a football tragedy, people always said that to

:25:16.:25:21.

me, this is a human tragedy, the spirit we have seen, obviously

:25:21.:25:25.

Liverpool showed a lot of spirit, but we have had a lot of help from

:25:25.:25:30.

people all around the world. This is a collective campaign. Everyone

:25:30.:25:33.

should be congratulated over the campaign, and not giving up. We did

:25:33.:25:40.

have our hard times, we did have times when we thought we are not

:25:40.:25:48.

getting anywhere, it was began vanised in the release of the 20th

:25:48.:25:52.

century Fields of Anfield, and the publicity it generated, with the

:25:52.:25:57.

crowd of over 35,000 at the memorial, unprecedented. Finally,

:25:57.:26:01.

Trevor Hicks, after today presumably as the support group

:26:01.:26:05.

regroups and plans your next move? We don't need to regroup, we have

:26:05.:26:10.

never ungrouped. I just mean after today? It is OK Kirsty, I'm not

:26:10.:26:17.

trying to be pedantic. We obviously have a lot of work to do, we have

:26:17.:26:20.

400,000 documents to wade through. Even reading the panel's report

:26:20.:26:27.

will take us some time. We are already moving on some of this, we

:26:27.:26:31.

have two eminent lawyers, they will take the long-term look. But, yeah,

:26:31.:26:38.

we will do that. If I come back to David Cameron's statement, he said

:26:38.:26:41.

categorically that the state had let us down. We will give the state

:26:41.:26:46.

the opportunity to put that right. But if it looks as though they are

:26:46.:26:50.

not going to do that, we will do as we have done it before, we will

:26:50.:26:53.

take it out of their hands. Thank you very much.

:26:53.:26:57.

The future for Libya is one of the great success stories of the Arab

:26:57.:27:02.

Spring, and has now been cast into doubt, as Christopher Stephens, the

:27:02.:27:07.

bams dor to Libya, and three embassy staff, were killed in an

:27:07.:27:13.

attack in Benghazi last night. Some local residents said Islamist

:27:13.:27:17.

gunmen involved in the attack were blaming America because of a film

:27:17.:27:23.

on YouTube they said insulted the Prophet Muhammad. Looters were said

:27:23.:27:27.

to be leaving the scene carrying office furniture and equipment. It

:27:27.:27:30.

has done little to quell the instable security situation after

:27:30.:27:35.

Gadaffi. US President, Barack Obama, branded the killing an outrageous

:27:35.:27:40.

attack, and ordered increased security at US diplomatic posts

:27:40.:27:44.

worldwide. The United States condemns in the strongest terms,

:27:44.:27:48.

this outrageous and shocking attack. We are working with the Government

:27:48.:27:53.

of Libya to secure our diplomats. I have also directed my

:27:53.:27:55.

administration to increase security at diplomatic posts around the

:27:55.:27:59.

world. Make no mistake, we will work with the Libyan Government to

:27:59.:28:07.

bring, to justice, the killers who attacked our people. What is the

:28:07.:28:11.

future for the American diplomatic mission in Libya. Our diplomatic

:28:11.:28:15.

correspondent is in Washington. First of all, what do we know about

:28:15.:28:20.

this attack, and who was behind it? Well, essentially, there were

:28:20.:28:25.

protests in both Cairo, the capital of Egypt, and in Libya, Benghazi,

:28:25.:28:34.

the second city of Libya, yesterday. Apparently, Salafi, a militant

:28:34.:28:38.

Islamic station had been doing some programme material about this film,

:28:38.:28:42.

defaming Islam, and this whipped up the protesters. This morning people

:28:42.:28:45.

awoke in Washington to a real bombshell, which was that the

:28:45.:28:49.

ambassador and three other people had been killed. Apparently trying

:28:49.:28:53.

to rescue staff in that Benghazi consulate. They were killed by fire,

:28:53.:29:00.

it wasn't clear actual fire or gunfire. Suddenly it became a huge

:29:00.:29:03.

story. Whatever the anti- Americanism in the world, it is the

:29:03.:29:06.

best part of 33 years since an American ambassador was actually

:29:06.:29:10.

killed in the line of duty. Suddenly it became a big issue.

:29:11.:29:15.

Today there has been speculation here that this protest may have

:29:15.:29:20.

provided a cover for militant groups, being called Ansar al-

:29:20.:29:24.

Sharia by some people, to stage a deliberate armed attack on the

:29:24.:29:27.

Benghazi facility, obviously on the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks.

:29:27.:29:33.

What is the reaction to that in the US? There has been a very big

:29:33.:29:36.

political reaction here. It has impacted on the presidential

:29:36.:29:42.

election campaign. Governor Mitt Romney, the challenger, yesterday

:29:42.:29:46.

spoke out, attacking what he has characterised as a mealy-mouthed

:29:46.:29:51.

response to the initial protest, from the US embassy in Cairo.

:29:51.:29:56.

Obviously since everyone went to bed last night and woke up this

:29:56.:30:01.

morning, it was clear it was a much more serious thing than thought.

:30:01.:30:06.

The governor himself, Mitt Romney, came under attack from the Obama

:30:06.:30:10.

campaign, the President has described him as shooting first and

:30:10.:30:17.

taking aim later. Saying he flew off on the handle, criticising the

:30:17.:30:21.

administration, and trying to condemn anti-Islamic sentiment,

:30:21.:30:24.

when its embassy had been attacked in Cairo and should have taken a

:30:24.:30:28.

more robust line, that was the Romney approach. Now he appears to

:30:28.:30:33.

be in some political difficulty over it. He says he's sticking to

:30:33.:30:39.

his line, that is part of his general critque of President

:30:39.:30:41.

Obama's policies, he has been too supine.

:30:41.:30:46.

The removal of Saddam Hussein was supposed to mean the end of brutal

:30:46.:30:49.

repression and the persecution of his own people, and yet, a

:30:49.:30:52.

Newsnight investigation has learned that in today's Iraq, if you are

:30:52.:30:56.

gay, there is every possibility you will be targeted, beaten up and

:30:56.:31:02.

murdered at the hands of the Iraqi police. Numbers are difficult to

:31:02.:31:07.

verify, but the United Nations confirmed it is extremely concerned.

:31:07.:31:09.

Despite homosexuality being technically legal in Iraq, the

:31:09.:31:19.
:31:19.:31:32.

Government appears happy to turn a blind eye to the killings.

:31:32.:31:37.

The list first appeared in the streets of Sadr City, "in the name

:31:37.:31:43.

of God the merciful, the forewarned are forearmed". They gave names and

:31:43.:31:48.

addresses of the shameless, and the immoral. By 2009 the witch-hunt had

:31:48.:31:54.

begun. We had cases where heads were cut

:31:54.:32:00.

off the bodies and stuffed into stomachs, or heads bashed with

:32:00.:32:04.

concrete block, or metal rods drilled through skulls. They think

:32:04.:32:10.

that by killing them they are cleansing the society. This is a

:32:10.:32:15.

story of modern-day Iraq, where young men and women are killed for

:32:15.:32:21.

being gay. A lot his changed in Baghdad since I was last year two

:32:22.:32:26.

years ago. The American troops are now gone. Explosions, still happen,

:32:26.:32:32.

but they are a lot more rare. While this is still a very dangerous city,

:32:32.:32:36.

life here out in the streets does feel a lot more normal. But what

:32:37.:32:42.

has also changed is that, for one group of people, Baghdad today is

:32:42.:32:50.

more dangerous than ever before. These days it is the clothes or

:32:50.:32:57.

your haircut that could determine whether you live or die in Baghdad.

:32:57.:33:00.

The anti-gay campaign by militia groups in Baghdad has been well

:33:00.:33:04.

documented. But the evidence we have uncovered, shows that the

:33:04.:33:07.

country's western-backed Government, is complicit in the deadly

:33:07.:33:14.

persecution of gays in Iraq. It is here, in Sadr City, one of the most

:33:14.:33:17.

conservative, most volatile districts of Baghdad, that the

:33:17.:33:23.

campaign against gays first began. In 2009 Human Rights Watch said

:33:23.:33:27.

dozens, possibly hundreds of gays in Iraq were being killed. Some, by

:33:27.:33:34.

their own families, but most, by Shi'ite militia men. The report,

:33:34.:33:39.

included descriptions of horrific torture practices. One way to kill,

:33:39.:33:46.

it said, was to glue shut a victim's an news, and force feed

:33:46.:33:53.

him laxatives. Mutilated bodies of gay men were often discovered in

:33:53.:33:57.

rubbish dump. But these days, it is the endless police and military

:33:57.:34:02.

checkpoints, all around Baghdad, that gay men say pose the greatest

:34:02.:34:08.

threat to them. It is not militia men that these people are hiding

:34:09.:34:12.

from, it is the police. They arrived at the safe house a few

:34:12.:34:18.

days ago, after police raided their old flat. The two were out, but

:34:18.:34:23.

their roomate had been arrested. Their new roomate, Ahmed, has been

:34:23.:34:29.

here for two months now. Ever since his own family threatened to kill

:34:29.:34:35.

him. I am so tired, so sad, I have no freedom. I really wish we could

:34:35.:34:42.

show you their faces, Ahmed has got big, dark, worried eyes on his thin

:34:42.:34:47.

face. Nancy is really pretty, and I would have never guessed that she

:34:47.:34:53.

was born male. And Alu has got this very trendy haircut, which would be

:34:53.:34:58.

completely normal in the west, but here in Iraq, this sort of hair

:34:58.:35:04.

could get you killed. TRANSLATION: The threat is bigger than before,

:35:04.:35:09.

now it is not only the militia, it is the Government going after us.

:35:09.:35:13.

TRANSLATION: I can't tell you how many times I have been raped at

:35:13.:35:16.

checkpoints, with the police it is countless. The worst incident was

:35:16.:35:22.

at a checkpoint in the street, they asked me for my ID, then asked me

:35:22.:35:25.

to get out of the car, they put me against the blast wall, nine of

:35:26.:35:31.

them raped me. The stories of rape, by the same

:35:31.:35:35.

people who oppose homosexuality, are mind-boggling. But it is also a

:35:35.:35:40.

reflection of the way that men and women in this conservative society

:35:40.:35:46.

relate to each other. The man who is raped, which is considered like

:35:46.:35:52.

the female part of a gay relationship, that is the man to be

:35:52.:35:57.

killed. Not the man who is raping, not the rapist. Although both are

:35:57.:36:03.

supposed to be in a homosexual relationship, but still, the idea

:36:03.:36:10.

is that the masculine part of the relationship, is a hero.

:36:10.:36:14.

Ironically, it was under Saddam Hussein that gays in Iraq enjoyed

:36:14.:36:18.

the most freedom. As the humiliation of the US-led

:36:18.:36:22.

occupation gave rise to more radical, more conservative groups,

:36:22.:36:26.

tolerance, especially towards anything perceived as western,

:36:26.:36:34.

became increasingly scarce. Ask anyone in the streets of

:36:34.:36:38.

Baghdad, and they will give you a long list of reasons, cultural and

:36:38.:36:43.

religious, as to why homosexuality is not accepted here. But what's

:36:43.:36:47.

happening in Iraq goes far beyond this stigma and homophobia that

:36:47.:36:53.

exists everywhere in the Middle East. Here, there is very clear

:36:53.:36:56.

evidence of systematic and organised persecution of people who

:36:56.:37:05.

are believed to be gay. This man in mourning, a former

:37:05.:37:09.

police employee, six weeks ago he came to work to find his boyfriend

:37:10.:37:15.

in a pretrial detention cell. There was no official arrest warrant, and

:37:15.:37:19.

there was nothing he could do to help. TRANSLATION: Being gay is not

:37:19.:37:23.

illegal in Iraq, it is not a crime. But he was told he was arrested

:37:23.:37:29.

because he was gay. They call gays "puppies", they would beat him,

:37:29.:37:32.

saying the puppies are destroying the country, and that they must rid

:37:32.:37:37.

the country of them, and they must kill them all. He was in the police

:37:37.:37:46.

station for a week. He died a week -- after a week, a day after he

:37:46.:37:51.

visited him. TRANSLATION: I was so upset, I lost control, I had a

:37:51.:37:54.

fight with the guards, I said why did you kill my lover. They said,

:37:54.:37:59.

since you are like him, you should be dead too.

:37:59.:38:02.

His boyfriend received the first threats in February, around the

:38:02.:38:06.

same time when the Iraqi media reported that dozens of young men

:38:06.:38:12.

were being targeted in Baghdad. They called them Emos, short for

:38:12.:38:17.

"emotionals", in Iraq they are often associated with gays. In

:38:17.:38:24.

response the Iraq Interior Ministry released a response, saying the

:38:24.:38:29.

Emos phenomenon was Satanic and had to be eradicated. 12 deaths were

:38:29.:38:32.

then confirmed, this boy was among them, the UN believes the number

:38:32.:38:36.

was much higher. One local organisation in Baghdad, which

:38:36.:38:39.

monitors the events, believes that the Iraqi political establishment

:38:39.:38:48.

was behind the killings. They put guards in front of the, on the

:38:48.:38:52.

gateways of universities, the guards, these policemen, began to

:38:52.:38:57.

threaten the young men that, if they do not cut their hair short,

:38:57.:39:04.

if they do not dress in a respectable way, "respectable",

:39:04.:39:10.

that they, the policemen cannot guarantee the safety of the young

:39:10.:39:15.

men. So it was another way of the Government to tell all the young

:39:16.:39:24.

people, if you do not submit to a traditionalwear, and to a

:39:24.:39:33.

religiously accepted hairstyle and appearance, you will be killed.

:39:33.:39:38.

With so much fear, loathing and secrecy, it is difficult to

:39:38.:39:42.

establish the exact level of the Government's involvement in the

:39:42.:39:52.
:39:52.:39:54.

anti-gay campaign. But the accounts of 17 gay men interviewed for this

:39:54.:39:58.

film are consistent. All said the Interior Ministry statement spark

:39:58.:40:03.

add new wave of violence. All have had friends or boyfriends killed,

:40:03.:40:10.

all said arrests were still happening.

:40:10.:40:14.

The Interior Ministry ignored our numerous requests for comment. The

:40:14.:40:17.

Ministry of Human Rights said that it couldn't help gay people,

:40:17.:40:22.

because they were not considered a minority in Iraq. I went to see Ali

:40:23.:40:28.

al-Dabbagh, who speaks on behalf of Iraq's Prime Minister, Nour al-

:40:28.:40:32.

Maliki. International organisations and independently we have seen

:40:32.:40:37.

evidence that homosexuals have suffered a great deal in the hands

:40:37.:40:42.

of the Iraqi police and the army? This country got a different habit

:40:43.:40:47.

and customs, which look to the homosexual in different way, which

:40:47.:40:53.

look to them in the west. We are talking about systematic and quite

:40:53.:40:57.

organised persecution and killings of gay men and women, what is the

:40:57.:41:02.

Iraqi Government doing to stop that? Definitely we stop it already,

:41:02.:41:08.

we don't have now any cases which are violent. We don't have that big

:41:08.:41:12.

number of homosexuals and gays, the gays should respect the behaviour

:41:12.:41:16.

and the moral values of the others, in order to be respected. This is

:41:16.:41:21.

bait like telling a black person not to be black? No, that is nature,

:41:21.:41:26.

by nature he's a black. What's homosexuality? It is not by nature,

:41:26.:41:31.

it is a behaviour. Ali al-Dabbagh also told me if there were any

:41:31.:41:34.

policemen violating human rights, they were acting as individuals.

:41:34.:41:38.

And that they were likely to be militia men who have infiltrated

:41:38.:41:45.

the police or the army. Not a single politician or public

:41:45.:41:49.

figure in Iraq has stootd up to stop the kill -- stood up to stop

:41:49.:41:54.

the killings. Activists say up to 1,000 gays have been murdered in

:41:54.:41:59.

Iraq since 2004, most of them in recent years. A drop in the ocean

:41:59.:42:05.

of tens of thousands of deaths. But, here is why, some believe, these

:42:05.:42:11.

targeted killings are destroying the very promise of a free Iraq.

:42:11.:42:17.

you live in a community where one person does not feel safe, they

:42:17.:42:22.

will kill him, when they finish him, they will turn to the second person,

:42:22.:42:26.

you stay quiet, the third person, they will come then, then they will

:42:26.:42:33.

kill you, and nobody will speak. If we stay quiet about the killing of

:42:33.:42:39.

the gay person, the women will be killed, the other marginalised will

:42:39.:42:43.

be killed, other minorities will be killed, and none of us will be

:42:43.:42:52.

around. It's like we don't exist, Nancy,

:42:52.:42:57.

said to me. The Government doesn't want them to

:42:57.:43:04.

exist. It won't deliver them from those who think that they deserve

:43:04.:43:14.
:43:14.:43:14.

to die. This morning Germany's highest court gave the green light

:43:14.:43:20.

for the country to ratify the ESM, Europe's new 500 billion euro bail

:43:20.:43:24.

out fund, raising hopes that the eurozone might be moving towards a

:43:24.:43:27.

resolution of the three-year debt crisis. Thousands of petitioners

:43:27.:43:32.

had appealed to the Supreme Court, claiming that a permanent bail out

:43:32.:43:34.

fund breached Germany's constitution, so will this decision

:43:34.:43:39.

have an immediate impact around the eurozone. I have been hearing, from

:43:39.:43:42.

the German Deputy Finance Minister, Steffen Kampeter, and asked him if

:43:42.:43:46.

there was ever any doubt over the decision, given the court had never

:43:46.:43:51.

ruled against the Government before? You can never be sure in

:43:51.:43:55.

front of the constitutional call, I appreciate the decision, because it

:43:55.:43:59.

makes clear that our Government position is in line with the German

:43:59.:44:03.

constitution. The clear message out of Germany to Europe, is the

:44:03.:44:06.

European stablisation mechanism is able to start now. The courts said

:44:07.:44:10.

the Government would have to vote on any extension to the bail out,

:44:10.:44:18.

do you think that will placate the German people? Germany is profiting

:44:18.:44:22.

politically and economically out of the European integration. It is the

:44:23.:44:26.

most profitable nation over the last decade. Therefore, it is my

:44:26.:44:29.

understanding that Germany can't just take something out of the

:44:29.:44:33.

European integration, but sometimes has to invest. Do you think today's

:44:33.:44:37.

decision has made it easier or tougher for Germany to bail out

:44:37.:44:43.

vulnerable countries? I see it as the decision of the constitutional

:44:43.:44:48.

call to calm down the debate. The opponents have no longer the

:44:48.:44:54.

argument, that this movement into the stablisation mechanism is anti-

:44:54.:44:59.

constitutional. This gives everybody the chance to calm down

:44:59.:45:04.

and concentrate on the development of the ESM and other focuses,

:45:04.:45:09.

enhancing competitiveness through all over Europe, and stablising the

:45:09.:45:13.

budget. Mario Draghi of the ECB has announced there will be an

:45:13.:45:17.

unlimited buying spree of sovereign bonds, Angela Merkel backed that,

:45:17.:45:19.

but the Bundesbank was very critical. It is not good for the

:45:19.:45:23.

Chancellor to be seen to be going against the Bundesbank?

:45:23.:45:27.

understanding of the decision of the ECB is it is part of the

:45:27.:45:33.

mandate to stablise the currency by the means they have. The European

:45:33.:45:37.

policies, and the European heads of states and fiscal policies have to

:45:37.:45:40.

do what is their job, that means we are not working in the field of

:45:40.:45:45.

monetary policies, we are working on the field of stablising our

:45:45.:45:47.

budget and enhancing competitiveness and growth.

:45:47.:45:51.

Everybody has to do his own job, I very much appreciate the work of

:45:51.:45:55.

the European Central Bank, but it is independent, and therefore, I

:45:55.:46:00.

won't want to further comment on it. On the question of Greece, the

:46:00.:46:03.

Greek Finance Minister has announced that Greece is going to

:46:04.:46:08.

look into just how much money is owed to them by Germany in war

:46:08.:46:13.

reparations, what do you make of that? We closed the debate on that

:46:13.:46:18.

years ago, and we won't open it again. It was said at the weekend

:46:18.:46:22.

that the problems of the eurozone might best be solved by Germany

:46:22.:46:31.

leaving, should Germany leave the eurozone? That comment was made by

:46:31.:46:35.

someone who has quite good experience from bringing currencies

:46:35.:46:39.

into trouble, as the UK knows from the 1990, I don't much appreciate

:46:39.:46:43.

his political recommendations. Our path is quite clear, we want to

:46:43.:46:47.

keep Europe strong and united. Because we are challenged by the

:46:47.:46:51.

emerging countries, we are challenged by China and the United

:46:51.:46:56.

States, and only a united Europe means the strong Europe. This is a

:46:56.:47:01.

good chance, for example, for the United Kingdom, and for Germany, as

:47:01.:47:08.

well, the more intense we go on the integrated path to Europe.

:47:08.:47:13.

Thank you very much. That's all from Newsnight tonight, we want to

:47:13.:47:17.

leave you with a piece of near history. The national media museum

:47:17.:47:21.

in Bradford will tomorrow unveil the earliest colour moving pictures

:47:21.:47:28.

ever made. Filmed in 1901 by the inventor Edward Turner, they offer

:47:28.:47:38.
:47:38.:48:05.

a glimpse of a world we only see A chilly night tonight, means a

:48:05.:48:11.

particularly fresh start in the morning. The sunshine will lift

:48:11.:48:15.

temperatures but in the north outbreaks of cloud affecting

:48:15.:48:19.

Scotland and the eastern coast. Some showery rain to the north-east

:48:19.:48:23.

of England. In the Pennines brighter skies, a fine day for much

:48:23.:48:26.

of the Midlands and East Anglia and the south-east. A chilly start by

:48:26.:48:30.

the afternoon, 19 or 20 is possible. A bit more cloud in the afternoon

:48:30.:48:33.

across south-west England. Again, many places dry and fine. It will

:48:33.:48:36.

turn breezey later in the day. That breeze picking up in west Wales,

:48:36.:48:40.

throwing a lot more cloud here, the north coast of Wales should hang on

:48:40.:48:44.

to some bright or sunny spells, as should eastern parts of Northern

:48:44.:48:49.

Ireland, where we could reach 18 or 19. Cloudier in the west. Some

:48:49.:48:52.

light drizzley rain on the north coast of Northern Ireland.

:48:52.:48:54.

Particularly wet in western Scotlandment here the winds really

:48:54.:49:00.

picking up, getting very gusty indeed this time tomorrow. Friday

:49:00.:49:03.

promise as lot of cloud across northern Britain, and fairly strong

:49:03.:49:08.

and gusty winds, a few scattered showers here and there, focus aid

:49:08.:49:12.

cross North West Scotland. Further south many places looking dry on

:49:12.:49:15.

Friday, feeling cooler than those temperatures would suggest because

:49:15.:49:18.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.

What really happened at Hillsborough?

How is life for gay people in post-Saddam Iraq?

And how should America respond to the death of its ambassador in Libya?


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS