02/10/2012 Newsnight


02/10/2012

Can Ed Miliband convince? Afghan asylum seekers in Britain. And we talk to musician Bobby Womack about the poor in America.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 02/10/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

One-nation under Ed, the leader of the Labour Party delivers a speech

:00:12.:00:17.

unlike any we have ever heard from him. That spirit of one-nation,

:00:17.:00:22.

one-nation, a country where everyone has a stake, one-nation, a

:00:22.:00:29.

country where prosperity is fairly shared, one-nation, where we have a

:00:29.:00:35.

shared destiny. What would Benjamin Disraeli, the Conservative who

:00:35.:00:39.

invented the one-nation idea make of the Miliband version. More to

:00:39.:00:44.

the point, what will the people of the 21st century make of it.

:00:44.:00:49.

How much does an Afghan have to do for our Armed Forces before we let

:00:49.:00:53.

him live here. This one was blown up, but still denied asylum. Even

:00:53.:00:57.

after this, I have left my job, they will kill me for sure, they

:00:58.:01:00.

won't let me. They need to take their revenge.

:01:00.:01:05.

Over in the corner of the studio, the President of the Royal Society

:01:05.:01:11.

of Chemistry tests a scientific phenomenon that defeated Aristotle,

:01:11.:01:21.
:01:21.:01:22.

why does hot water freeze faster than cold water.

:01:22.:01:29.

He didn't say "prick me, do I not bleed", but Ed Miliband, generally

:01:29.:01:36.

considered the low-calorie calibre of party leader, did pull over a

:01:36.:01:41.

pretty good speech today. No script and some bad joke, they all seemed

:01:41.:01:45.

pretty impressed in the hall where the Labour Party was having its

:01:45.:01:48.

get-together. That is not a normal cross section of people. In the man

:01:48.:01:52.

of the blind the one-eyed man is king, of course. Labour know if

:01:52.:01:55.

they are to have a chance of winning the next election, Ed

:01:55.:02:00.

Miliband has to make much more of an impression than he has managed

:02:00.:02:05.

to do so far. Allegra Stratton there was. He seemed to have

:02:05.:02:09.

impressed them. Can you speak 70 minutes without notes. Two minutes

:02:09.:02:13.

is tricky enough. It was quite electric, I was standing near some

:02:13.:02:17.

people who have been very critical of him before, it was amazing. My

:02:17.:02:26.

theory is this, he's now up to his opt number -- optimum operating

:02:26.:02:29.

capacity. This is Ed Miliband he knew he could be and his team, but

:02:29.:02:33.

this is the Ed Miliband we haven't seen since he was Environment

:02:33.:02:37.

Secretary, or running to be Labour leader. It was went back when it

:02:38.:02:40.

was promised this guy could do something, he got the job and he

:02:40.:02:44.

did wobble for a long time. He has only really righted himself today.

:02:44.:02:48.

There have been some impressive substantial speeches recently, but

:02:48.:02:51.

not in terms of performance. There were arguments in today's speech,

:02:52.:02:56.

but I think he's been making them before, actual low, it is just that

:02:56.:03:00.

he sort of opted for this one- nation thing, which is cheekiness.

:03:00.:03:07.

What, for me, was the key thing, was the performance. The confidence

:03:07.:03:12.

it will give him shouldn't be underestimated, when he now has the

:03:12.:03:15.

quite formidable task of going out and turning that, the newspaper

:03:16.:03:19.

reported them yesterday, the two out of ten who think he would be

:03:19.:03:24.

the good Prime Minister, into a lot more. You look sceptical. Do you

:03:24.:03:27.

think people will genuinely change their political allegiance that he

:03:28.:03:31.

can deliver an apparently unscripted speech for over an hour?

:03:31.:03:34.

Of course not. What speech like this do is give a movement and team

:03:34.:03:37.

a sense of confidence, and a hall and party a sense of confidence.

:03:37.:03:42.

There may be a few people out there who will start to notice. We are

:03:42.:03:44.

two-and-a-half years away from an election, people aren't going to

:03:44.:03:49.

form their judgments now. What, I think, we should bear in mind with

:03:49.:03:52.

the polls, they are very damning for him, they have a lot of work on

:03:52.:03:55.

that. The work they also had on speech-making, they now clearly

:03:55.:03:59.

don't have to do. But in terms of those polls, the thing people say

:03:59.:04:03.

is, of course people see David Cameron as Prime Minister, because

:04:03.:04:06.

I is Prime Minister. It is difficult when you are the --

:04:06.:04:10.

because he is Prime Minister. It is very difficult when you are the

:04:10.:04:13.

leader of the opposition to do that, it is difficult to convey that. He

:04:13.:04:16.

has a huge way to go, it is just one of the things he had to tick

:04:16.:04:25.

off, he did tick off today. Week two, day two, 2.00pm, party

:04:25.:04:29.

leader two of the invisible party conference season.

:04:29.:04:34.

Another leader arriving for their speech, a speech destined to be

:04:34.:04:40.

forgotten. The mid-term director- general. Move along, there is

:04:40.:04:46.

nothing to see here. -- dirge. Move along, there is nothing to see here.

:04:46.:04:49.

Us journalists like to say this is the speech of someone's life,

:04:49.:04:53.

usually it isn't. This one is moderately to very important, he

:04:53.:04:58.

has to prove at this prifvot point in parliament that he has the ideas.

:04:58.:05:03.

The trouble for the speech writers is this is something

:05:04.:05:09.

impersuceptible, people here and out there will feel it in their gut.

:05:09.:05:14.

From the beginning he was going for the guts. This, is actually quite

:05:14.:05:19.

rare. Only one problem, where is my speech. I want to do something

:05:19.:05:23.

different today. I want to tell you my story. I want to tell you who I

:05:23.:05:28.

am, what I believe, and why I have a deep conviction that together we

:05:28.:05:34.

can change this country. My conviction is rooteded in my

:05:34.:05:39.

family's story. A story that starts a thousand miles from here. Because

:05:39.:05:43.

the Milibands haven't sat under the same oak tree for the last 500

:05:43.:05:48.

years. No notes, no elect tern, no guide text for people like me, this

:05:48.:05:52.

was 70 minutes of not particularly new personal anecdotes, but

:05:52.:05:56.

defiantly new confidence, and a defiantly new argument. For many,

:05:56.:06:01.

this was pre-leadership Miliband, back when he was promise, not

:06:01.:06:07.

disappointment. My parents didn't tell me what career to go into. My

:06:07.:06:10.

late father, some of you know, wouldn't agree with many of the

:06:10.:06:20.

things I stand for. He would have loved the idea of Red Ed! But, he

:06:20.:06:27.

would have been a little disappointed it wasn't true. My mum

:06:27.:06:31.

probably doesn't agree with me either, but like most mums, is too

:06:31.:06:35.

kind to say so! Look, when I was younger, I wasn't certain I wanted

:06:35.:06:39.

to be a politician, but I do believe the best way for me to give

:06:39.:06:43.

back to Britain, the best way to be true to my faith, is through

:06:43.:06:48.

politics. Then, for the political cross

:06:48.:06:54.

dressing, so beloved of our leaders. 140 years ago to the year, another

:06:54.:07:02.

leader of the opposition gave a speech. It was in Free Trade Hall

:07:02.:07:07.

that used to stand opposite this building, it's a rad son now, by

:07:07.:07:14.

the way. His -- Radisson now, by the way. His name was Benjamin

:07:14.:07:17.

Disraeli, he was a Tory, but don't let that put you off, for the

:07:17.:07:22.

moment. Let's remember what Disraeli was celebrated for, it was

:07:22.:07:27.

a vision of Britain, where passion, loyalty, dedications to the common

:07:27.:07:31.

cause, courses through the veins of all, and nobody feels left out. It

:07:31.:07:36.

was a vision of Britain coming to the to overcome the challenges we

:07:36.:07:42.

face. Disraeli called it "One Nation". We heard the phrase again

:07:42.:07:47.

as the country game together to defeat facisim, and we heard it

:07:47.:07:50.

again as Clement Attlee's Labour Government rebuilt Britain after

:07:50.:08:00.
:08:00.:08:00.

the war. Friends, I didn't become leader of the Labour Party to

:08:00.:08:06.

reinvent the world of Disraeli, or Attlee, but I do believe in that

:08:06.:08:10.

spirit. The Tories would later attack Miliband, saying he cannot

:08:10.:08:14.

be one-nation, when a day earlier he launched class warfare on the

:08:14.:08:17.

Prime Minister. But their private worry is that Miliband has launched

:08:17.:08:22.

class warfare on the very rich, aligning himself with everybody

:08:22.:08:29.

else. Next April David Cameron will be writing a cheque for �40,000 to

:08:29.:08:33.

each and every millionaire in Britain. The Prime Minister is not

:08:33.:08:38.

actually doing that, but Miliband's game is clear. That is more than

:08:38.:08:44.

the average person earns in a whole year. And he thrilled lots of bet-

:08:44.:08:49.

makers with the "P" word. I say this, you can't be a one-nation

:08:49.:08:54.

Prime Minister if you raise taxes on ordinary families and cut taxes

:08:54.:08:57.

for millionaires. You can't be a one-nation Prime Minister if all

:08:57.:09:02.

you do is seek to divide the country. Divide the country between

:09:02.:09:07.

north and south, public and private, those who can work and those who

:09:07.:09:13.

can't work. And you can't be a one- nation Prime Minister if your Chief

:09:13.:09:17.

Whip insults the great police officers of our country by calling

:09:17.:09:24.

them plebs! The rhythm was not the usual sterile patter of political

:09:24.:09:30.

speeches, sometimes it showed, polish relinquished for a bit of

:09:30.:09:34.

personality. Have you ever seen a more incompetent, hopeless, out-of-

:09:34.:09:44.

touch, U-turning, pledge-breaking, make-it-up-as-you-go-along, back-

:09:44.:09:46.

of-the envelope shower than this Prime Minister and his Government.

:09:46.:09:53.

That is my faith. One o'Clock Gun nation, a country for all, -- one-

:09:53.:09:59.

nation, a country for all, everyone playing their part, a Britain we

:09:59.:10:02.

rebuild together. Thank you very much.

:10:02.:10:05.

Wow, I was wrong, that was probably the best speech Ed Miliband has

:10:05.:10:10.

given since becoming leader, even critics of his standing next to me

:10:10.:10:13.

watching it, accepted it was a very powerful speech. I would say he

:10:13.:10:16.

would now be pleased with both the voice he has shown to the public

:10:16.:10:19.

and the argument he has made. It is now over to you whether you like

:10:19.:10:24.

that voice and accept the argument. There were policies announced today,

:10:24.:10:29.

there was an argument, there was even some political ancestor

:10:29.:10:35.

stealing. Individually they are not the story. Today belongs to the

:10:35.:10:36.

inperSeptemberabilities of parliament, Ed Miliband landed one

:10:36.:10:41.

in the gut. The designated Ed Miliband

:10:41.:10:43.

cheerleader for tonight is the Shadow Business Secretary, Chuka

:10:43.:10:49.

Umunna. He's in Manchester. Can you tell us, Chuka Umunna. Hi Jeremy.

:10:49.:10:56.

Hell lo. How is a one-nation Labour Party blifrpb different --

:10:56.:11:04.

different from previous Labour parties? The message Ed got over

:11:04.:11:07.

successfully today, is we have big problems as a country, we have the

:11:07.:11:10.

short-term challenges around growth, we need growth back in the economy.

:11:10.:11:13.

We have got long-term economic challenges, which require a

:11:13.:11:17.

complete restructuring and building of a new economy. Viewers of this

:11:17.:11:19.

programme are really facing the biggest squeeze on their living

:11:19.:11:23.

standards in a generation. The question is, how do you tackle

:11:23.:11:27.

that? Do you want to answer my question, how is the Labour Party a

:11:27.:11:32.

one-nation Labour Party, different to other Labour parties? If you

:11:32.:11:37.

look at our embrace of business, that, perhaps, is not something

:11:37.:11:41.

that has been associated with say, old Labour, in the times past. The

:11:41.:11:46.

point we have been making today is, for example, yes, we're looking to

:11:46.:11:49.

the private sector to grow the economy in the future, and business

:11:49.:11:53.

has a role in, that but we are looking for business to work in

:11:53.:11:56.

partnership with our FE sector, to produce the training and skilling

:11:56.:12:01.

up of our young people that are needed to power our economy. If you

:12:01.:12:04.

say look at the message in and around banking, Jeremy, we are

:12:04.:12:08.

saying, for example, in relation to banking, look, it is not a question

:12:08.:12:12.

of banker-bashing, we actually want to see the banking sector reformed,

:12:12.:12:16.

restored to its former greatness, but to serve the real economy, to

:12:16.:12:20.

serve our small and medium-sized business. So on the line, if you

:12:20.:12:27.

have a line from the Labour Party, Michael Foot on one end, Tony Blair

:12:27.:12:32.

on the other, where abouts is Miliband's Labour Party? I wouldn't,

:12:32.:12:37.

I'm not necessarily in favour of defining by personalities. I think

:12:37.:12:40.

the point is we are Social Democrats. It is by policy, is what

:12:40.:12:44.

I'm looking for? We are democratic socialists, or whatever you want to

:12:44.:12:50.

call it. We believe we are mutually independent, we want to give

:12:50.:12:55.

individuals and the families the platform to go on to achieve their

:12:55.:12:58.

dreams and aspiration, we believe that is only in the context of a

:12:58.:13:01.

strong society. That involves much of our approach to how we think we

:13:01.:13:04.

should resolve the issues facing the economy. That is why we argue

:13:04.:13:09.

for an active industrial strategy, where you have Government acting

:13:09.:13:13.

collaberatively with business to produce solutions. That is

:13:13.:13:16.

different from the story extrapolate of things, their

:13:16.:13:20.

assessment is the best thing Government can do, is stand aside,

:13:20.:13:23.

deregulate everything and leave it to the market. If we learned

:13:23.:13:28.

nothing from the 2009/09 crash, that is a broken and failed

:13:28.:13:33.

approach. Ed Miliband said everyone has to contribute to the success.

:13:33.:13:38.

This one-nation slogan is absurd, when less than 19%, or fewer than

:13:38.:13:42.

19% of the electorate bothered to vote for you? Well, it is not

:13:42.:13:46.

absurd at all, it is about one- nation Britain, it is about

:13:46.:13:50.

everybody. To my mind, what it takes to transform the economy, to

:13:50.:13:56.

transform all of our lives, it is a difficult situation. That is

:13:56.:13:59.

requiring everyone to play their part, that is a slightly different

:13:59.:14:03.

issue as to whether they vote. I tell you what is relevant. This was

:14:03.:14:06.

a personal speech, Ed was explaining why he believes in what

:14:06.:14:10.

he believes in, why does he have faith in all of us as one British

:14:10.:14:14.

people, to sort out the problems that we have got. So you have got

:14:14.:14:18.

quite a lot of detail about his back story and his family. I'm glad

:14:18.:14:22.

you have brought up this voting issue, Jeremy, actually, one of the

:14:22.:14:25.

biggest problems facing us as politicians, people thinking we are

:14:25.:14:30.

all the same. Incredibly people, a lot of people are angry with what

:14:30.:14:35.

the Government has done, in my constituency I have 15 people

:14:35.:14:38.

chasing every Jobcentre Plus vacancy at the moment, a lot of

:14:38.:14:41.

them are very angry. A lot of people are disillusioned with

:14:41.:14:45.

politics. Ed was seeking to say today, this is what I believe and

:14:45.:14:49.

why I believe what I believe, I'm not just any old politician, I'm

:14:49.:14:52.

serious about delivering the change for you and your familiar loose.

:14:52.:14:57.

When he talks about -- Families. When he talks about David Cameron

:14:57.:15:01.

writing a cheque for �40,000 for every millionaire in the country.

:15:01.:15:05.

What he's really telling us is that's what he sees is the

:15:05.:15:08.

management of the economy, that is not what David Cameron is doing,

:15:08.:15:12.

and you know it's not what he's doing, what he's proposing to do is

:15:12.:15:17.

not take away from them �40,000. In that sort of language, Ed Miliband

:15:17.:15:21.

is making it quite clear what he sees as the role of the state and

:15:21.:15:26.

taxation, isn't he? I just simply don't agree with your analysis. The

:15:26.:15:31.

simple fact is, one of the reasons that the cut in the top rate of tax.

:15:31.:15:36.

That is air money, that is the analysis? Why it was so toxic. I

:15:36.:15:40.

will tell you the real analysis behind it, that was so toxic for

:15:40.:15:43.

the Government. It was toxic for the Government because they were

:15:43.:15:47.

doing it at the same time they were, for example, imposing a granny tax

:15:47.:15:52.

and various other things. Do you really think he's writing �40,000

:15:52.:15:55.

cheques for every mill tkwron air in the country, you don't believe

:15:55.:16:00.

that, you are a highly intelligent man? The effect of reducing the top

:16:01.:16:06.

rate of income tax from 50p to 40p, is to give them a tax break in the

:16:06.:16:10.

region of �40,000. This isn't a Labour or Conservative issue.

:16:10.:16:14.

is not writing them a cheque? not a left or right issue, Jeremy

:16:14.:16:18.

that is a right or a wrong issue. The eyes of most of your viewers,

:16:18.:16:21.

to go and dish out a tax break, in that order, to the richest people

:16:21.:16:25.

in this country, at the same time as I have just explained to you,

:16:25.:16:28.

for example in my constituency I have 15 people chasing every

:16:28.:16:31.

Jobcentre Plus vacancy at the moment. That is just wrong. That is

:16:31.:16:35.

wrong to most people watching this programme. This point he made today

:16:35.:16:38.

about not being willing to see a growth in the gap between rich and

:16:38.:16:42.

poor, why does he believe that now, and didn't believe it when you were

:16:42.:16:48.

in Government? I think he's always believed that. I have always

:16:48.:16:53.

believed that. Why did the gap get bigger then? Because, obviously, we

:16:53.:16:59.

should have done more to close the relevant gap -- relative gap.

:16:59.:17:03.

incompetence is it? Of course not. You believe something that you

:17:03.:17:07.

couldn't make happen? Let me answer the question. The fact is s we lost

:17:07.:17:12.

in 2010 for a reason -- -- is we lost in 2010 for a reason, we

:17:12.:17:17.

didn't get everything right. It is a source of regret that the

:17:17.:17:22.

relative gap grew in our time of Government, despite the fact we

:17:22.:17:26.

drew many people out of poverty. What the people want to win back

:17:26.:17:31.

their support, they want us to demonstrate humility, and not that

:17:31.:17:35.

we carry on as if we are entitled to their support, we are not, we

:17:35.:17:39.

have to win it back by showing good policies that make a difference to

:17:39.:17:44.

them. For example, the focus today on the forgotten 50% of people who

:17:44.:17:50.

don't go on to university, but who need those highly-skilled

:17:51.:17:53.

Vocational Qualifications in engineering, for example, we are

:17:53.:17:56.

saying we need more focus on that. We need to change the situation

:17:56.:18:01.

where, for example, only a third of large firms are providing

:18:01.:18:04.

apprenticeship, so we have more apprenticeships for people going

:18:04.:18:08.

not going to university. These make a practical difference to people's

:18:08.:18:13.

lives, that is how you demonstrate that you are serious about

:18:13.:18:18.

affecting change. We have reconvened the Newsnight political

:18:18.:18:22.

panel, who have been watching speeches since Disraeli gave his

:18:22.:18:26.

speeches. Danny Finkelstein, who used to be speechwriter for Robert

:18:26.:18:34.

Peel, and writer on the times, and we have an adviser to Gordon Brown,

:18:34.:18:41.

and Miranda Green who used to be an adviser to Paddy Ashdown, previous

:18:41.:18:44.

leader of the Liberal Democrats. What did you think? Fluent,

:18:44.:18:47.

effective, it will have achieved with the audience, very important,

:18:47.:18:52.

in Westminster and in the party, greater kfdeoints in Ed Miliband's

:18:52.:18:56.

leadership. -- confidence in Ed Miliband's leadership. Personally I

:18:56.:19:03.

think he's too far to the left. He doesn't agree with the analysis and

:19:03.:19:08.

doesn't accept the moderniser PlayBook. I don't agree, he has

:19:08.:19:12.

made it clear and the party conference made it clear that is

:19:12.:19:16.

where they are going to stand. did you think? It was a fantastic

:19:16.:19:23.

performance, he looked as if he was enjoying himself. We haven't seen

:19:23.:19:27.

Ed looking like he was enjoying being Labour leader for quite a

:19:27.:19:30.

while. It will mean Labour voters will have a spring in their step.

:19:30.:19:34.

That is important. One of the things we have seen is Ed has

:19:34.:19:41.

underperformed with Labour voters, by contrast, with how Cameron has

:19:41.:19:44.

with Conservative voters. If he achieves that, that will be a big

:19:44.:19:48.

achievement. How did you enjoy it? I enjoyed it very much. There were

:19:49.:19:53.

some quite good jokes in it? There were, it was a good performance, I

:19:53.:19:57.

hold my hands up and say I misunderestimated this man. I do

:19:57.:20:01.

think it will change the perception. I do think one of his advantages is

:20:02.:20:06.

that he's not as bad as people think he is. I don't mean that as a

:20:06.:20:08.

cheap comment. There is a gulf between his ability, and where

:20:08.:20:14.

people think he is. He has quite a big problem in filling that. Don't

:20:14.:20:19.

let's forget that people don't watch the speeches. This will only

:20:19.:20:24.

have a small role in moving public opinion. But he's got that as an

:20:24.:20:28.

advantage. Personally, I think he should have used it for a more

:20:28.:20:31.

courageous speech. That whole approach would have worked, if he's

:20:31.:20:35.

going, for example, to attack vested interests, he just mentions

:20:35.:20:42.

the banks and Miguel-Anxo Murado, he has vested -- Rupert Murdoch, he

:20:42.:20:46.

has vested interests in his own party. He fought for the leadership

:20:46.:20:49.

because David Miliband believed in doing that, because he doesn't. I

:20:49.:20:53.

agree with David Miliband, he is being true to himself with the

:20:53.:20:58.

speech he delivered. I think the one-nation thing was powerful, at a

:20:59.:21:06.

time when people feel hopeless, it is a hopeful message. Tony Blair

:21:06.:21:10.

talkeded about it, everyone's talking about it. William Hague's

:21:10.:21:16.

spring conference speech of 1999, one-nation. Absurd though that is.

:21:16.:21:19.

Danny is right on the substance of where he has positioned himself in

:21:19.:21:22.

terms of individual messages and policies, what I thought was

:21:22.:21:26.

interesting today is that when you watch the arc of the speech, you

:21:26.:21:30.

didn't come away with that. It was much more of a Tony Blair moment of

:21:30.:21:35.

speaking to the whole nation. In that sense I actually thought the

:21:35.:21:42.

one-nation unifying message was very clever. Is it a problem?

:21:42.:21:47.

have a lot of work to do? I think it is a mistake for parties to make

:21:47.:21:50.

policy too far ahead in opposition, even close to the election. They

:21:50.:21:54.

get strung up on policies that don't work. People don't follow

:21:54.:21:57.

them, they don't understand what the parties are saying. I think

:21:57.:22:04.

that was the right decision. Where I question the strategy is that

:22:04.:22:08.

he's a few points ahead in the polls, maybe even ten points, he

:22:08.:22:12.

could use the political capital he has built up to take risks with the

:22:12.:22:16.

party, and move the perception, so swing voters believe they are safe

:22:16.:22:21.

to vote Labour again. People aren't listening at the moment. In a sense

:22:21.:22:26.

I think this is about shoring up. Why are they not listening? Because

:22:26.:22:29.

they don't listen to Labour Party leaders' speeches at conferences,

:22:29.:22:34.

they don't watch conferences, they simply don't. It was brave of him

:22:34.:22:38.

to say today, that he was there to prove to you that not all

:22:38.:22:41.

politicians are the same. Good luck at the moment with that. What we

:22:41.:22:44.

learned from the speech is he's not going to do that, he's never going

:22:44.:22:48.

to do it. He didn't just not do it because it wasn't the moment. He

:22:48.:22:51.

has made a decision, he thinks the electorate has moved towards the

:22:51.:22:54.

left because of the financial cry he is, that he can pitch himself to

:22:54.:23:00.

the left of where Tony Blair of. He said that explicitly, with quite an

:23:00.:23:04.

acidic passage on new Labour, I thought. I don't agree with him

:23:04.:23:07.

politically, you wouldn't expect me to do so. I think he will have

:23:07.:23:11.

trouble making that work, but, at least that is what he thinks. If he

:23:11.:23:16.

was, if his attempt was to show he was authentic, I think that he had

:23:16.:23:20.

to say what he thought. He was true to himself. He came over as the

:23:20.:23:25.

nice man he is. I think that came through very clearly. Danny talked

:23:25.:23:29.

about spending political capital, to be tough on your own people.

:23:29.:23:31.

That's incredibly important, particularly if you are going to

:23:32.:23:35.

sell yourself in the next two-and- a-half years as a Government in

:23:35.:23:40.

waiting. I think today he was earning thatAl, that you can now

:23:40.:23:44.

askp -- earning that capital, that you can now ask him to spend. I

:23:44.:23:49.

don't think he could have made that speech before now. I'm desperate to

:23:49.:23:53.

know, why given he can make a speech like that, that his reading

:23:53.:23:57.

from a script is quite abysmal. Why did they let him do that. He has

:23:57.:24:02.

fuelly done this at conference before very -- he has actually done

:24:02.:24:06.

that, at conference before he has done that before, everyone has

:24:06.:24:10.

thought where is Ed. He has made those bits of speeches before and

:24:10.:24:14.

strung them together. Usually when somebody repeats, when somebody has

:24:14.:24:21.

an apparently huge feat of memory, Elizabeth Dole did this at a

:24:21.:24:23.

Republican convention, it was because she made that speech over

:24:23.:24:29.

and over again. I think what's impressive about it is to do it on

:24:29.:24:33.

such a huge occasion and show no everybodys. What voters would

:24:33.:24:39.

complain about him -- Nerves. voters will complain is he has no

:24:39.:24:44.

charisma, were there swing voters watching they would have been

:24:44.:24:48.

surprised. Voters don't like reading because they think someone

:24:48.:24:52.

has else has written it. It was a good performance from that point of

:24:52.:24:59.

view, it will have a limited swing because of people watching it.

:24:59.:25:05.

is like an echo chamber? People in that echo chamber will hear him out

:25:06.:25:12.

and he will have a following. just not overestimate it, really,

:25:12.:25:15.

one of the things that happens constantly in politics, I always

:25:15.:25:18.

used to remember this with William Hague, you would wake up the next

:25:18.:25:21.

morning after thinking you had done brilliantly, destroy Tony Blair in

:25:22.:25:26.

the House of Commons, nothing moved. No-one noticed. So he has to do

:25:26.:25:33.

this again and again. S this is the beginning, the have noticed.

:25:34.:25:42.

problem is the one-nation concept was quite thin. The interview with

:25:42.:25:45.

Mr Umunna indicated there wasn't very much to it. It seemed to go on

:25:45.:25:50.

and on. The answer without any content. Maybe I'm being unfair. I

:25:50.:25:55.

couldn't detect what it was. I just thought I left wondering what it

:25:56.:26:00.

really of. The reason is, doesn't really want to steal the

:26:00.:26:02.

Conservatives clothes and be a Conservative, that is not what he

:26:02.:26:08.

is. That's not what he wants to do. He hardly, the elephant in the room

:26:08.:26:12.

of the deficit, the fact we are bust. That hardly got a look in

:26:12.:26:15.

anywhere? That is the thing, the question of whether people will,

:26:15.:26:19.

once again, be willing to trust the Labour Party with the nation's

:26:19.:26:26.

finances is the only thing that matters, really. But I do think it

:26:26.:26:31.

is an important day. The only one of the difficult issues that Labour

:26:31.:26:36.

has to Faye, he faced into it well, was immigration, his language was

:26:36.:26:41.

interesting. He definitely realised he has to do something on that. He

:26:41.:26:45.

talked about welfare effectively, I thought. Moderately. I thought it

:26:45.:26:49.

was a bit thin. You must have been chuffed he wasn't attacking the

:26:49.:26:52.

Liberal Democrats? There was one mention, and one boo from the hall,

:26:52.:26:58.

but, yeah, the Lib Dems got off lightly. I think if he has listened

:26:58.:27:02.

to the message that the real enemy is the Tory Party, that is a

:27:02.:27:07.

positive thing as well. He has a party base, he might have a problem

:27:07.:27:10.

forming a coalition with the Liberal Democrats, he might wish to

:27:10.:27:14.

do that. I did a fringe meeting at a Labour Party Conference, the

:27:14.:27:20.

anger from the conference floor about the Liberal Democrats, Ed

:27:20.:27:24.

Balls calling them Tories. He doesn't want to stoke them out.

:27:24.:27:28.

could find a lot of hatred for the Lib Dems at Conservative

:27:28.:27:32.

conferences too, couldn't you? not refraining from that myselfment

:27:32.:27:36.

I'm saying he has to be careful not to stoke it up. If he stoke it is

:27:36.:27:40.

up he could find when the moment comes, the party base won't let him

:27:40.:27:45.

do what he needs to do. Not a bad few days, if these things matter at

:27:45.:27:49.

all, any longer for the Labour Party, was it? I think, as I say,

:27:49.:27:52.

the Labour Party and Labour voters will have a spring in their step

:27:52.:27:55.

now. That's quite an achievement. They haven't had had. They have

:27:56.:27:59.

been thinking why did we vote for this guy. I don't think they are

:27:59.:28:04.

thinking that tonight. The UK Border Agency has done it again, it

:28:04.:28:13.

is in asylum of an Afghan man wounded in the war. There are

:28:13.:28:23.
:28:23.:28:24.

plenty of people wounded in war, when Johnny Tocco was injured he

:28:24.:28:28.

was working for -- Emily Atak, was injured he was working for the

:28:28.:28:38.
:28:38.:28:54.

Interpretors are the filter through which -- interpreters are the

:28:54.:28:57.

filter through which NATO absorbs in Afghanistan. Their mission is

:28:57.:29:02.

dangerous, dozens have been killed, and millions have been wounded,

:29:02.:29:07.

among them, Mohammad Rafi Hottak, who soon learned that this job

:29:07.:29:11.

could have terrible reprecussions. We are already on the blacklist of

:29:11.:29:18.

the Taliban. If they catch us, even after I have left my job, they will

:29:18.:29:23.

kill me. They need to take their revenge, the best person they can

:29:23.:29:30.

get hold of is interm pret ters, they have proven -- interm pret

:29:30.:29:35.

ters, they have proven -- interm preters, they have proven that. If

:29:35.:29:41.

you quit your job it doesn't make sense, you are making yourself

:29:41.:29:45.

vulnerable, they can watch you anywhere. This week he has been in

:29:45.:29:53.

the media spotlight, following the Home Office rejection of his

:29:53.:30:01.

application to stay in the country. I was horrified that the Home

:30:01.:30:06.

Office has not bothered to check the facts, there are witnesses, and

:30:06.:30:10.

evidence in the support units, there are witnesses, myself and

:30:10.:30:14.

others who would verify the fact that he had worked for us for a

:30:14.:30:22.

very long time. Back in 2007, the Afghan interpreter was patrolling

:30:22.:30:28.

on the streets of Sangin, one of the most dangerous places in his

:30:28.:30:31.

country. The troops he was with came under attack. Even then I had

:30:31.:30:35.

to do translation there. The Afghan forces were firing, the British

:30:35.:30:39.

were saying ceasefire, stop firing, they wouldn't stop firing. Even

:30:39.:30:47.

though I didn't have the strength to even say a word, because I was

:30:47.:30:51.

internally bleeding and externally, it was a lot of pressure on my

:30:51.:30:58.

chest. God knows how did I survive. Even at that time I stood up again

:30:58.:31:03.

and I said stop firing, stop firing. And I don't know did I fall or they

:31:03.:31:09.

laid me down again. Any way, they stopped firing.

:31:09.:31:15.

The British officer he was with had been killed by an IED, or impro-

:31:15.:31:19.

advised bomb, and he was badly wounded. However, after being

:31:19.:31:24.

treated for those injuries, schrapnal wounds that still heavily

:31:24.:31:29.

scar his body, he returned to his duties. It was when he finally

:31:29.:31:32.

decided to quit the army and come to Britain, that his problems

:31:32.:31:38.

started in ernest. Lacking the proper papers, Rafi paid people

:31:38.:31:41.

smugglers to bring him into this country, hidden in the back of a

:31:41.:31:45.

lory. Sbs he got here he went -- lorry. As soon as he got here, he

:31:45.:31:50.

went to the authorities to try to legalise his position. It was at

:31:50.:31:54.

that point a situation that can only be described as Kafka-esque,

:31:54.:31:59.

began to unfold. This week, after 15 months awaiting a decision, the

:31:59.:32:04.

UK Border Agency wrote to Rafi telling him he could not stay in

:32:04.:32:08.

this country. Their letter pointed to discrepancies in ID cards he

:32:08.:32:13.

submitted, saying none of these record his name as Mohammad Rafi

:32:14.:32:20.

Hottak, it added, despite a number of inquiries -- enquiryies from the

:32:20.:32:24.

MoD, his employment was not verified, and bizarrely, throughout

:32:24.:32:29.

his interaction with the UK Border Agency, he had spoken English.

:32:29.:32:39.
:32:39.:32:40.

say, I can't prove in my claim who I am. The reason I came to the UK

:32:40.:32:44.

is because I have served this country, this Government, in

:32:44.:32:49.

Afghanistan, and I have considered them as my own family. I speak

:32:49.:32:54.

English, and I, if not fully, but partially I understand the culture

:32:54.:33:02.

and the way that things work here. I understand why you are all angry,

:33:02.:33:09.

I'm very sorry. The interpreters have no guaranteed asylum in

:33:09.:33:15.

Britain. If they apply today they have to join everyone else who is

:33:15.:33:20.

applying for either refugee status or humanitarian protection. And,

:33:20.:33:28.

there is no recognition of the enormous danger that people who

:33:28.:33:33.

have been interpreting for the British or Americans are facing.

:33:33.:33:39.

They are very much special cases. Tonight, the Border Agency has said

:33:39.:33:44.

it is reviewing Rafi's asylum application, because the increased

:33:44.:33:48.

level of publicity around his case has led to new and significant

:33:48.:33:52.

information coming to light. However, the questions of why it

:33:52.:33:56.

has taken 15 months for them to realise their mistake, and what

:33:56.:34:05.

happens to others in similar situations remain.

:34:05.:34:10.

Rory Stewart is a member of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee,

:34:10.:34:17.

he was in Iraq where his interpreter was killed in 2005.

:34:17.:34:20.

Heather Barr, a former UN official who works for Human Rights Watch

:34:20.:34:24.

joins us also. How vulnerable are people who have done jobs like

:34:24.:34:33.

acting as an interpret er? They are extremely vulnerable, the Taliban

:34:33.:34:36.

has talked about how they will target Afghans who work with

:34:36.:34:41.

foreigners, they have said after the foreigners who leave those who

:34:41.:34:44.

are collaborators have been punished for their treason. The

:34:44.:34:48.

threats are real. Even people while the troops have been here receive

:34:48.:34:52.

threat, letters, phone calls. It is very strange that think that

:34:52.:34:56.

somebody would have to prove individually they are facing a

:34:56.:35:01.

threat, rather than there being recognition that everybody in this

:35:01.:35:05.

category is facing a threat. Given your own experience in Iraq what do

:35:05.:35:10.

you make of this case? I find it very Shaughnessying. I think one of

:35:10.:35:14.

the big -- very shocking. I think one of the bigger questions about

:35:14.:35:18.

the system is it is a legalistic approach. People are not good

:35:18.:35:20.

enough to take on a special obligation for those who have

:35:20.:35:25.

worked for us. Your own experience, where your own translator was

:35:25.:35:30.

murdered, after you had left, I believe, there is no doubt that was

:35:30.:35:34.

as a consequence of the work he had been doing? It is difficult to

:35:34.:35:37.

prove, but he was receiving death threats connected to the fact that

:35:37.:35:40.

he had had worked with me. And there were two other women that I

:35:40.:35:44.

worked with who were also killed. It was the time just after we had

:35:44.:35:52.

departed from Alimara, where the militia were going around rounding

:35:52.:35:58.

up people who were working with us. My friend was 25 years old, he

:35:58.:36:03.

spoke very good English, he worked as a translator for me not because

:36:03.:36:06.

he was being paid, but because he believed in Britain, and he was

:36:06.:36:10.

killed. There are thousands acting as interpreters and helping western

:36:10.:36:15.

forces in one way or another there. Presumably there has to be some

:36:15.:36:20.

mechanism, can they all be admitted to Britain, the United Nations, or

:36:20.:36:24.

Canada or wherever? It is definitely true that there are many

:36:25.:36:29.

thousands of Afghans, maybe tens of thousands of Afghans who are at

:36:29.:36:33.

risk, because they have worked for international organisations. But,

:36:33.:36:36.

interpreters who have worked with the military are really a special

:36:36.:36:40.

case. They are really unique in the fact that they have been seen

:36:40.:36:44.

constantly on patrol, with members of the international military, I

:36:44.:36:49.

don't think the Taliban sees any difference between them and Afghan

:36:49.:36:53.

security forces, or international military. So, I think, if you are

:36:53.:36:57.

going to draw a lion, certainly they should be on the side of the

:36:57.:37:02.

line where -- a line, certainly they should be on the side of the

:37:02.:37:06.

line that should seech special obligations. I don't agree, we

:37:07.:37:10.

don't have an obligation to everyone who has worked as a

:37:10.:37:15.

translator, but we have an obligation to be diligent to look

:37:15.:37:20.

at everyone who has worked as translator N this case they weren't

:37:20.:37:24.

diligent enough. It points to a bigger problem, which is the whole

:37:24.:37:28.

asylum system seems to be often a lottery, and run in a very strange

:37:28.:37:31.

fashion. Do you have a suggested way of dealing with that? I think

:37:31.:37:34.

the first thing is to recognise we have a huge problem, which is that

:37:34.:37:38.

it is very difficult for someone in Britain to try to guess whether a

:37:38.:37:42.

story is real or not. This has come out of people desperately trying to

:37:42.:37:45.

second guess what is happening in a village in Afghanistan. I have had

:37:45.:37:49.

friends from Afghanistan, who have successfully come into the country,

:37:49.:37:52.

with much less than that. And others who have been turned down.

:37:52.:37:57.

The second thing is, he has come in through human smuggling, we have

:37:57.:38:01.

created a system that incentivises people to work with criminal gangs

:38:01.:38:06.

and smuggle themselves into the country rather than a proper system.

:38:06.:38:12.

The Border Agency said it couldn't prove he was working with the

:38:12.:38:16.

British military, it took us 20 minutes to get someone to verify

:38:16.:38:21.

that he did? Indeed, that is why everyone needs to be checked more

:38:21.:38:26.

carefully. The broader problem is I turn up and say I have come from a

:38:26.:38:30.

village in central Afghanistan and feel under threat, it is very

:38:30.:38:33.

difficult for the Border Agency to check that is true, in this case

:38:33.:38:36.

they got it wrong. Presumably there are all sorts of things that you

:38:36.:38:40.

might have done to assist the international forces in Afghanistan,

:38:40.:38:45.

which you might feel, give you a legitimate fear of being at risk in

:38:45.:38:50.

Afghanistan from the Taliban and others. All sorts of people, it

:38:50.:38:56.

might be just a farmer who tells them that there are some IEDs on a

:38:56.:39:04.

road somewhere? Yes but a farmer who tells a soldier that there are

:39:04.:39:09.

IEDs on the road, he can whisper into his ear, it is a one-time

:39:09.:39:13.

event, he can melt back on to the farmland and no-one will know he

:39:13.:39:17.

shared that manufacturing. An interpreter has no way of being

:39:17.:39:21.

invisible, and showing their support for, not just the

:39:21.:39:26.

international community, but the mission. It is worth rembering that

:39:26.:39:32.

Britain's military effort in Afghanistan is impossible without

:39:32.:39:36.

these interpreters, you can't look for IEDs, you can't partner with a

:39:36.:39:43.

team from the Afghan national army, you can't reach out and try to

:39:43.:39:48.

befriend the population and engage them, without the assistance of

:39:48.:39:51.

interpreters. These interpreters are there in the line of fire,

:39:51.:39:55.

along with the soldiers every day. They are also facing additional

:39:55.:39:59.

dangers when they go home at night. I also think we should understand

:39:59.:40:04.

we are operating in a culture where Afghans feel these kinds of

:40:04.:40:08.

obligations very strongly it is a culture in which that kind of

:40:08.:40:12.

relationship, of having worked with someone or partnering someone would

:40:12.:40:15.

make what we are doing here shocking. Because our whole

:40:15.:40:20.

presence in Iraq is based on some idea of moral legitimacy, we have

:40:20.:40:24.

to be particularly careful in how we behave. Not just ethically, but

:40:24.:40:28.

simply in terms of our whole reputation, not to be seen to be

:40:28.:40:33.

letting people down. Back to the experiment you saw at the start of

:40:33.:40:38.

the programme. Why does boiling water, apparently, freeze quicker

:40:38.:40:42.

than cold water. In June this year, the Royal Society of Chamsry

:40:42.:40:47.

launched a competition to find the most plausible -- Royal Society of

:40:47.:40:51.

Chemistry launched a competition to find the most plausible answer.

:40:51.:40:56.

They didn't expect a great entry but thousands of entries came from

:40:56.:41:01.

around the world. They broadened the competition by opening it up to

:41:01.:41:07.

the public. Earlier the professor put the

:41:08.:41:17.
:41:18.:41:45.

# Ice ice baby So what you were seeing there was

:41:45.:41:48.

some boiling water and some water at room temperature, each being

:41:48.:41:53.

placeded in a freezer, which will now be brought from the freezer by

:41:54.:41:57.

our producer, Hannah, who will bring it across to the studio, we

:41:57.:42:02.

will see whether the frozen water or the boiling water has, in fact,

:42:02.:42:07.

frozen and the room temperature water hasn't frozen. It's taking an

:42:07.:42:15.

awfully long time to get it out of there. Well done! We have a big

:42:15.:42:19.

problem with the experiment, neither has frozen. Did you plug in

:42:19.:42:27.

that freezer? I blame the friezer! This is rubbish -- Freezer. This is

:42:27.:42:31.

rubbish, they are both liquid. sure the red one is colder. Stick

:42:31.:42:36.

your finger in, they are both the same. This is a completely rubbish

:42:36.:42:39.

experiment. But I think that is an experiment, that is live television,

:42:39.:42:44.

it is a real experiment. Indeed it is. Had it been rehearsed perhaps

:42:44.:42:49.

we could have got it right? could have faked it, but we didn't.

:42:49.:42:54.

If this were going properly if someone had had plugged the fridge

:42:54.:42:58.

in, the red one, I think, is the hot one, the boiling one, would

:42:58.:43:06.

have frozen by now? It would have. The one at room temperatures

:43:06.:43:10.

wouldn't have? People can do it at home, to see if what we are saying

:43:10.:43:14.

is true or not. What are you looking for? We are looking to find

:43:14.:43:19.

why this happens. We don't know. you don't know, how can you judge

:43:19.:43:24.

when someone has given you the right answer? If they give us a

:43:24.:43:27.

good explanation of the answer, we can decide whether it is plausible

:43:27.:43:31.

or not. We can do more experiments to see if it is right or not.

:43:31.:43:35.

you going to do those experiments? I would like to do those

:43:35.:43:39.

experiments. If someone writes in and says, I think the reason, I

:43:39.:43:45.

should add we added dye to these, maybe it is the food colouring.

:43:45.:43:50.

Even the tray isn't cold. This is a complete shambles. I'm very sorry

:43:50.:43:54.

about that. But your experiment, your desire for knowledge at the

:43:54.:43:58.

Royal Society of Chemistry, is impressive. You are looking for

:43:58.:44:02.

people to give you an explanation for the fact that this phenomenon

:44:02.:44:06.

occurs in a well-regulated experiment. That's right. But you

:44:06.:44:10.

have no way, have you, of judging which is the riech explanation?

:44:10.:44:16.

Well, I think we can -- Right explanation? I think we can look at

:44:16.:44:20.

the explanations that people give us and see is it based on fact, it

:44:20.:44:24.

might give other people ideas to do more experiments. If someone writes

:44:24.:44:28.

in, how many have you had? Nearly 22,000 explanations.

:44:28.:44:32.

explanations, have you read them all? -- 22,000 explanations, have

:44:32.:44:39.

you read them all? Several of them, not them all. You find one that

:44:39.:44:43.

seems plausible, do you give it the money, how much is it, �1,000?

:44:43.:44:46.

is, we are asking the public to look at some of the answers and see

:44:46.:44:50.

which answers they like, we are also putting a panel of experts

:44:50.:44:56.

together, other scientists, to consider the responses, and put

:44:56.:44:59.

their vote in, we will see what happens. Is there any practical

:44:59.:45:04.

application at all? The main reason for it was to get people interested

:45:04.:45:08.

in scientific experiments, and to do the experiments and think up

:45:08.:45:14.

answers for themselves. But, bottom line, if you want a gin and tonic

:45:14.:45:20.

with some ice in it, put hot water in the freezer. That is a great

:45:20.:45:30.
:45:30.:45:54.

practical application. Tomorrow That's all from nice night tonight,

:45:55.:45:57.

until tomorrow, good night -- Newsnight tonight, until tomorrow,

:45:57.:46:07.
:46:07.:46:30.

Hello again, a lot of showers to come through the night. As we head

:46:30.:46:34.

into tomorrow there should be more sunshine, and the showers should be

:46:34.:46:38.

fewer. A scattering of showers and sunny spells, the winds not as

:46:38.:46:41.

strong and blustery, the winds feeding in frequent showers to the

:46:41.:46:44.

North West of England. Again, Cumbria could be the wettest place

:46:44.:46:50.

in the country. Fewer showers east of the Pennine, for most of the day

:46:50.:46:53.

it will be dryer. Sunshine coming out across the south-east of

:46:53.:46:57.

England, a scattering of showers, colder than today. A much better

:46:57.:47:00.

day for the south west of England. Fewer showers, more sunshine,

:47:00.:47:03.

particularly in the afternoon. There will be some sunshine in

:47:03.:47:06.

Wales as well. In the afternoon it is the north of the country that

:47:06.:47:09.

will have most of the showers, those showers pulling away from

:47:09.:47:13.

most of Northern Ireland, so more in the way of sunshine again in the

:47:13.:47:16.

afternoon. A mixture really in Scotland, there will be some

:47:16.:47:20.

showers developing a little more widely, most will be light with the

:47:20.:47:23.

best of the sunshine for the eastern side of the country. It may

:47:23.:47:28.

well stay dry for the most part in Edinburgh and Inverness, not just

:47:28.:47:31.

into Wednesday but Thursday too. Further south we will have sunny

:47:31.:47:35.

spells, a scattering of showers, the odd heavy one can't be ruled

:47:35.:47:39.

out. Thursday looks that bit dryer even further. Arguably Thursday is

:47:39.:47:43.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS